From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 00:31:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j417VbZ1024836; Sun, 1 May 2005 00:31:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j417VaPC024831; Sun, 1 May 2005 00:31:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 00:31:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050501073128.76269.qmail web42104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:31:28 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Greg's closed loop SMOT claims, and Vortex-L & Freenrg-L forums To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A --- William Beaty wrote: > On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > > Provide some high-quality documentation of > your 1997 claims of closed-loop operation, or admit > that it never occurred. Hi Bill, I'm in the process of making the SMOT kits and the new measurement system, so I can do what I always intended to do. Ship a reliable OU demo toy. I have offered you a SMOT kit and the new measurement system which proves the Prometheus Effect, at the heart of the SMOT, is OU. Despite what you think of me, the SMOT device and the measurement system stand on their own and need independent verification. Will you assist? I don't have the documentation you require but the event did occur. If I can show you the SMOT (same design as in 1997) is OU, then why can't you believe I did what I claimed back then? Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 00:41:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j417fmZ1027890; Sun, 1 May 2005 00:41:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j417flgf027875; Sun, 1 May 2005 00:41:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 00:41:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050501074139.67992.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:41:39 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Greg's msg from 1997: continuous closed-loop SMOT To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > "Prometheus Effect" a.k.a. Greg Watson wrote: > > >Hi Jed, > > > >You once posted me a copy of the SMOT review Chris > >Tinsley did for IE. Could you please do that again? > >I would like to review it and post a few comments. > > > >By the way, can you provide the mailing address for > >IE . . . > > Hi Greg, > > Go to hell. And have a nice trip! Hi Jed, Having a bad day? Really pissed off at those who will not give CF data the real review it needs? Maybe like the SMOT review IE did where it was ASSUMED the ball on exit would experience sufficient dragback to reclaim the ramp gained PE but NO effort was put into actually measuring the energy on exit. Just a quick white wash using existing conservative modeling. Sound a bit like about the mainstream opinion of CF? So I take it you are not interested in verifying the Prometheus Effect and another IE writeup is out of the question? Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 05:55:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j41CtB3P019916; Sun, 1 May 2005 05:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j41Ct9M7019896; Sun, 1 May 2005 05:55:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 05:55:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=QSCN5LtpOlb8COTidm71uFINvABZWa1llBX4SDXKW50h/LmaXU4EJFT+RV3GzHHY; Message-ID: <410-22005501115325340 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic Confinement Cold Fusion in a Cup of Water? Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 06:53:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940587534a1d3bdc6e60c17e000b281ec3e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.157 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A couple of days ago I placed a (10 ring) stack of 10 millimeter OD x 5 Millimeter ID ring super magnets separated by tissue paper in an insulated drinking cup, with the thought that the ~ 10^19 deuterons/gram would align (as do protons) with the magnetic field and effect relativistic spin neutralization of the coulomb barrier. Assuming it would take hours to days for the (millijoule?) fusion reaction rate to warm the water. The water is slowly warming up, according to my "finger thermometer". I have a real "digital" thermometer on order. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A couple of days ago I placed a (10 ring) stack of 10 millimeter OD x 5  Millimeter ID
ring super magnets separated by tissue paper in an insulated drinking cup, with
the thought that the ~ 10^19 deuterons/gram would align (as do protons) with
the magnetic field and effect relativistic spin neutralization of the coulomb barrier.
 
Assuming it would take hours to days for the (millijoule?) fusion reaction rate to warm
the water.
The water is slowly warming up, according to my "finger thermometer". 
 
I have a real "digital" thermometer on order.   :-)
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 06:48:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j41Dm73P004790; Sun, 1 May 2005 06:48:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j41Dm3iO004762; Sun, 1 May 2005 06:48:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 06:48:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4274DE2A.50302 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 09:48:26 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes References: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <427393A2.60300@bellsouth.net> <427405D8.6050606@bellsouth.net> <802871tfenv1cqr2o4sig1sdai5f1rls12@4ax.com> <42740F1C.3020506@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0a3oND.A.VKB.S4NdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:05:00 >-0400: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> >> >>>Try googling radar ranging results for the moon/Venus/mars, and >>>see if any long delayed echoes are mentioned. >>> >>> >>> >>Be more specific, pls. Directional antennae could render your comment >>irrelevant. >> >> > >Why? > Because, it will be pointed in a different direction on signal return due to the rotation of the earth. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 09:17:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j41GGs3P022331; Sun, 1 May 2005 09:16:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j41GGq5Q022317; Sun, 1 May 2005 09:16:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:16:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg's msg from 1997: continuous closed-loop SMOT Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 11:16:37 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: <20050501074139.67992.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050501074139.67992.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j41GGo3P022289 Resent-Message-ID: <4vl2nB.A.ocF.0DQdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 1 May 2005 17:41:39 +1000 (EST), you wrote: >--- Jed Rothwell wrote: >> "Prometheus Effect" a.k.a. Greg Watson wrote: >> >> >Hi Jed, >> > >> >You once posted me a copy of the SMOT review Chris >> >Tinsley did for IE. Could you please do that again? >> >I would like to review it and post a few comments. >> > >> >By the way, can you provide the mailing address for >> >IE . . . >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Go to hell. And have a nice trip! > >Hi Jed, > >Having a bad day? Really pissed off at those who will >not give CF data the real review it needs? > >Maybe like the SMOT review IE did where it was ASSUMED >the ball on exit would experience sufficient dragback >to reclaim the ramp gained PE but NO effort was put >into actually measuring the energy on exit. Just a >quick white wash using existing conservative modeling. >Sound a bit like about the mainstream opinion of CF? > >So I take it you are not interested in verifying the >Prometheus Effect and another IE writeup is out of the >question? > > >Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, >Greg --- Perhaps you could apply to Joseph Newman or Jack Carey for help. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 10:08:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j41H8b3P010049; Sun, 1 May 2005 10:08:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j41H8ZvQ010017; Sun, 1 May 2005 10:08:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:08:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JcNRi0azyhBFDfDgqtjogREUtJ+DG95qMqPW/ILldZLlhMDaCI8bHFCEQ88fkuM/AHh2209xNojqsaemCuWJFmZsgxQWNtLpay/B3WCmPYClLblQBgA0mK89UKR+AGvQIUCRKzZBZ6c0KtBnBpdMxvz1xForPqoEp26ppVviVlM= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:08:24 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vacuum cleaner static vortex In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050430224016.58DB71973B4 xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j41H8T3P009964 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: its a dirt devil dynamite, its been doing this since it was bought, and its probably been run about 5 hours now without a cleaning and still building up charge. yes, rather dry, i am in arizona after all. however, its done it with a high humidity as well, just not as much buildup. taking a closer look at what was going on, i first noticed that brining my finger near the outside as it was running would cause a build up of hair and dust on the inside in that spot, before the buildup got too large, and was whisked away by the spinning air. upon opening it up, theres an obvious static field on the inside and out, and filling it with water with teh inside coated with dust with the lights off, i could be wrong, but it appears that some of the discharges were taking place THROUGH the plastic. i think now that part of the effect is a charge seperation going on, but im not sure. i dont really have the tools to test this. im thinking of making a charge detectors as seen on bills website, but i think id have to really drop the sensitivity. (as an aside, hey bill, does that thing notice wires with juice running through them? id had a daydreamish thought of building a glove, the bottom side covered with wires, the leds on the top directly above, and have it set up so you could wave your hand over the wall and see the wires. be really usefull for drilling into walls and that. anyways) if thats the case, then in part the plastic is acting like a seperator in a capacitor. also,thought was that it may be that the brush against the carpet is building up a charge, and thats being transfered to the body of the vacumm due to lack of grounding, but it builds up charge on a dusty tile floor as well, and no difference qualitatively between different kinds of carpet/fabric. but again, i have nothing to test that quantitaviley, other than measuring time before the static can be felt at a certain distance from the cylinder, and that still relies on a bit of subjective data. also, since im sure it will be asked, ive vacummed up an area, completly discharged inside and out with my hand, poured the dust back over that area of carpet, and vacuumed again. identical build up of charge. i might also note, the handle is an aluminum tube, covered in 1/4 plastic, snap together, no metal screws to carry charge. im being shocked THROUGH the plastic handle, its less painful than your average heavy door knob shock, but obviously more powerful (had a muscle spasm in my hand with one of them, felt like the time i was 5 and stuck a safety pin into one blade of an outlet. ) richard, what kind of details are you looking for? On 4/30/05, William Beaty wrote: > On Sat, 30 Apr 2005, Michael Foster wrote: > > > > > What brand is the vac? I gotta try this. > > Very cool! A low-humidity environment is probably the key to this. > > Powder impact on plastic should charge both the powder and the plastic. > I've never seen it happen with my vacuum in Seattle, so it might be our > humid weather rather than the particular brand of device. > > Also, a bit of greasy salty filth can make a surface too conductive. Or a > microscopic bit of oil on the plastic can coat the dust and halt the > charging (this is how "clothes dryer sheets" eliminate static cling.) A > brand new vaccum cleaner might create vicious sparks, but after a few > hours of operation the sparks would stop again, unless the plastic > interior was thorougly flushed with soapy water, alcohol, etc. I've > noticed that, while cleaning plastic to create electrostatic effects, you > have to *flush the surface* with a stream of liquid. If instead you scrub > with alcohol-soaked paper towels, the surface remains contaminated. > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 11:44:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j41Iho3P010270; Sun, 1 May 2005 11:43:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j41IhmGU010249; Sun, 1 May 2005 11:43:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 11:43:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Exploding cell phone Redux Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 14:46:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <5LfaW.A.AgC.jNSdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sure enough, more of those cheaply made lithium batteries are failing. http://www.local6.com/news/4434305/detail.html With picture of injury, that looks mighty painful. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 14:30:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j41LTu3P026609; Sun, 1 May 2005 14:29:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j41LTsnW026595; Sun, 1 May 2005 14:29:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 14:29:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: New Energy researches at KPN Consulting Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:32:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. I may be a cynic; but I am not lazy. At the urgings of some list members I have begun to post some of the public domain experimental researches of KPN Consulting. The first posting is an experiment I did for long time list member Fred Sparber. I will review my own work and see what I can afford to share with the group, look for new postings in the coming months. http://www.kpnconsulting.com/Research.htm Enjoy, and feel free to pass the link around to other lists. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 20:35:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j423ZPYe015833; Sun, 1 May 2005 20:35:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j423ZOnQ015828; Sun, 1 May 2005 20:35:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 20:35:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:35:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <427393A2.60300@bellsouth.net> <427405D8.6050606@bellsouth.net> <802871tfenv1cqr2o4sig1sdai5f1rls12@4ax.com> <42740F1C.3020506@bellsouth.net> <4274DE2A.50302@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <4274DE2A.50302 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j423ZHYe015781 Resent-Message-ID: <-hJO2.A.Q3D.8_ZdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 01 May 2005 09:48:26 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Because, it will be pointed in a different direction on signal return >due to the rotation of the earth. [snip] ..and thus would not be picked up. Good point. Doesn't anyone listen on radar frequencies without using directional antennae? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 21:09:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42496Ye024469; Sun, 1 May 2005 21:09:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4248sNo024359; Sun, 1 May 2005 21:08:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:08:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Public" To: Subject: RE: Searching for issue # 13/14, March - June 1997 of Infinite Energy magazine Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 23:08:34 -0500 Message-ID: <003f01c54ecc$9c592530$0200a8c0 Craig> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050502035146.8728.qmail web42102.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Any help would be appreciated as when I asked Jed > Rothwell for assistance I was told to "Go to Hell". > Guess he was having a bad day. You know, I don't think he was having a bad day, as that was my immediate response, as well. You are a con-man. You are one because you were adamant about having achieved a complete roll-around for several hours, back in 1997. And now, after having said that you had video-taped it, had numerous witnesses, after dropping off the face of the Earth before delivering your promised test machines, you claim no recollection of some of the basic aspects of that achievement, have none of the evidence that you previously had boasted, and you have no explanation as to why you failed to live up to your obligations to those who paid you for your SMOT test devices. You are a con-man, and if not, at the very least, you are a liar. The sad thing is, the SMOT devices that you promised your customers was never supposed to be OU. It was only supposed to be something that others could use when testing your ideas. It could have been the very thing that you now show in your videos, being built for about $10. Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 21:33:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j424XaYe006189; Sun, 1 May 2005 21:33:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j424XZB2006173; Sun, 1 May 2005 21:33:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:33:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=1TGcyXufch+fiBThl6nKlSfwzSixRCoVSg1zcHCJLPyyCOlcjOmK6Xec0YdHEN7+JGJsErtzDjNoTA2xR4YeL4rmpCuz4aD5OQzQHGDe9ft2PrOyD5zyQcvyUdaN1Jx7RpY1SryI9W6IzWTgWAT6lBYQFBOX2Kmt7dmNX5HFqcY= ; Message-ID: <20050502043329.66426.qmail web41522.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:33:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Spiral helixes To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > Frank and Richard, > > > Your "a cord of three strands is not quickly > broken" > > quote is interesting. Could this have referred to > a > > braid or plait I wonder. > With only two polarities, > one might ask > why have three-phase at all, or else... if there is > any advantage > to using multiple phases, why not have four or six, > etc? (which > actually you do have in transformers). There is > information on the > net about this, but none of it seems to have the > complete answer - > other than **cost** or should I say, "duh, it all > gets back to > cost." > In fact, three-phase is more economical than any > other number of > phases, it seems, in that it uses less tonnage of a > conductor to > get the same amount of power from point A to point > B. But for > applications like rectifiers and synchronous > converters where DC > is produced, it is most efficient to use six-phase > AC input, which > is easily produced from three-phase in a > transformer. > > The experts say that if you are transmitting a > certain amount of > power single-phase, adding one more conductor > operated at the same > line voltage and current and using three-phase will > increase the > power transmitted by 72% with only a 50% increase in > the amount of > copper and losses. That advantage is obvious, but is > there more to > the story than cost and why is that the case anyway > ? Terry > probably knows the answer... or maybe it is part of > the mystery of > a spiral helix... ;-) > > Jones Lets go back to electrical definitions... Here we can rehash what has been wrote concerning the vector differences case for amperages on the stator line; from HW Jackson; Introduction to Electric Circuits; third edition (1970) This was my sort of electrical learning bible, the authour is very concise, and is often cited from other sources... However the warning also applies here from Prentice Hall; All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any way, or by any means, without permission in writing from the publisher... Yeah this is the standard disclaimer... Yet in this book a mistruth is promulgated, so I dont need any permission to say it is a mistruth, because in a court of law, if something can be shown to be inaccurate, the truth reigns supreme... Ben Cartright said this in context of defence of libel laws on a episode of Bonanza where he bought his own newspaper, but he wasnt referring to electricity back then... HW Jackson... Introduction to Electric Circuits... "The phase current of the source is defined as the current flowing in a particular {stator} coil of the source of emf, and the phase current of the load is the current flowing in a particular arm of the load. In the wye-connected system, the source phase current, load phase current, and line current are all one and the same. But careful inspection of the delta system shows us that each line has to carry current for TWO arms of the load. Closer inspection shows us that the tracing direction for one of these currents is AWAY from the source and the other is TOWARD the source. Therefore, the line current to the delta load must be the vector DIFFERENCE between the two load phase currents flowing in that line. However, if two vector quantities have an angle between them of greater than ninety degrees, their vector difference is greater than one by itself." Then we go on to the OBJECTION to that last statement which should actually be read as 60 degrees, and not 90 degrees. This is because if the angle was 90 degrees, exactly as written in that electrical law book: the vector difference would have a magnitude greater then either vector magnitude alone, and so to quantify this error we go back to find when and where this error of knowledge first krept in and where that angle first occurs... where those magnitudes would be EQUAL; and in fact if each vector were one unit, the vector difference would be 1.4 units at 90 degrees; the vector addition would also be 1.4 at 90 degrees, and it is that unique phase 4 angle that makes equal magnitude results for either subtraction OR addition; which no other phase angle is able to accomplish... IF the phase angle were instead 60 degrees, THEN up to a certain limit the phase angle subtraction above that angle would be greater then either one vector unit alone would establish as a solitary unit magnitude, and what we have here as a published scientific doctrine is a subtle form of brainwashing to guarantee the subserviance of three phase electrical doctrine; without carefully examining all the scientific facts, and accepting something just because it is already established as gospel because it is written in an authoritative book governing these so called electrical laws... Here we have something quite unbelievable! The virtual master of electrical teachings; HW Jackson has made a (technical)mistake! He is saying something that is not completely wrong, and yet is not technically wrong, but it is misleading! Perhaps they corrected that mistake in later editions. Perhaps the statement itself isnt wrong, but however it is (VERY) misleading. Let us look at the following facts... What is the inside angle of a equilateral triangle... Obviously 60 degrees, since the angles inside a triangle sum to 180 and in this case each angle is the same since each arm is the same length. Let us sum the vector addition of that phase angle unit if each side was one at a 60 degree angle. like in a equilateral triangle, with equal sides of length. Yes then each unit is one. It IS an equilateral triangle, with unit one on all sides. The vector addition is the unit adding to greater then one, which at 60 degrees is easily visualized. However the vector subtraction magnitude at that point is also one: again shown by the equilateral triangle. At greater angles then this the vector subtraction becomes greater then each vector magnitude alone... the addition is the diagonal between those vectors, greater then each vector itself. AT 60 degrees the vector subtraction is equal, but at 90 degrees they are not! Why would an author define that division point at 90 instead of 60!!! If we instead subtract the vectors, which as Jackson says will be the amperage stator delivery line this only means that each ending of those arrow points: make a magnitude equal to the original vector. Again that is an equilateral triangle. What angle makes the same magnitude vector result for both addition OR subtraction? Only one angle does that; it is 90 degrees. Go above or below that angle, you are not balanced. Therefore on a six phase system which is 360/6 = 60 degrees we can have 1 amp in thru the delivery lines, or stator line currents, and one amp thru the phase currents, again thru the diagram of a 60 degree phase angle. If we increase that angle the vector subtraction will exceed the unit vector, but again the law book declares this to happen at 90 degrees, not just 60 degrees... If we expand this to 4 phases instead of six we have 1.4 amps delivery vs 1 amp phase currents. Going further then 90 degrees we have 1.7 amps delivery vs 1 amps on the arms. Therefore 90 degrees is the best possible phase angle for reduction of delivery curents vs arms of the phase currents. The argument is finished by the elementary laws of trigonometry. That is the only angle that will yeild the same magnitude result for either ADDITION or SUBTRACTION of the magnitude of the vectors. No need to go on with this subject except to say one word; which is SYMMETRY. A magic square has symmetry. A magic cube has symmetry. If we begin to make analogies to the magic cube it may lead where no one has formerly thought about electrical delivery systems. A stator line splits into two delivery phase lines on a flat plane. If it could be realised on a cube, and the analogies held the quadrature delivery system could be expanded quite beyond what is already known on paper, but first a convincing demonstration of that concept has to be shown. To show that one must demonstrate what is currently considered impossible. Can a phase angle divison be expanded into three dimensions to show 720 degrees of freedom??? The step before that one is to demonstrate 540 degrees of freedom, to expand time itself so that timing differences between resonant voltage rises can be shown. I consider this to be already possible as I have made already a system expanded past 360 degrees to that of 400 degrees. The magic cube holds a sort of key, but that key needs a preliminary piece of stepping evidence. First you demonstrate that time can be expanded on an extra dimension. Then you demonstrate a dimension beyond that one, according to magic cube ideas. Let me pose a simple problem that may not seem that simple to the novice. I am going on a long journey. At a point of reference I turn at right angles, and then again I travel a great distance. I again turn at right angles. I have made two right angle turns. Now I begin to make the last right angle turn to return to my starting point ,as a square would exist. However I have already reached that starting point. How far have I traveled? Easy answer enough aint it? Each travel path was a quadrant of the earths globe. I started from the equator, went to the North pole, made a right angle turn, went back to the equator and made another right angle turn, and arrived back at my starting point without making the third right angle turn. I took the laws of two dimensions, where a triangle has 60 degree internal angles, but now when the 2-D was subtended to 3-D surfaces, the internal angles changed to confuse the outside observer used to those ordinary flat plane dimensional laws. Now I do the same thing analogy wise with three dimensional space /time metric. I take a three phase alternator that can produce the illusion of rotating magnetic fields in space. I find the relationship of mutual inductance between between the three coil groups so that they are loosely magnetically coupled. When I take the reactive measurements they agree with our space time metric: the magnetic fields rotate just like theory says they will. Now I resonate them according to the reactance readings. I give each group cancelling reactances. Now I find the magnetic fields no longer rotate at all, and this is a damn great puzzle going beyond all known theories. It stumps me for several years... Each of those coil groups makes a resonant rise of voltage according to the q factor of each group. That voltage rise is measured. Then the voltage rise BETWEEN EACH group is also measured. That relative voltage rise between each group, compared from the outside to the inside is SUPPOSED to also be 360 degrees, just like our space/ time metric guarantees it to be. But on the inside voltage differences it is MORE then 360 degrees, on the first accidental placement where all three fields weren't even close to mutual inductance for all three groups together. It demonstrated 400 degrees difference between the groups. By stopping the illusion of rotating magnetic fields by lenz law reaction at resonance, something else instead rotated. That something else that goes into rotation is the actual time frame to the outside observer. Although it sounds perfectly rediculous, according to the theory of past workings, if all three off phased resonances were placed together in space for loose magnetic coupling, the best results should be 540 degree separation of all phase angles... Dont blame me for speculating, that 540 degrees cant happen by logical laws, so it wont happen. I would be happy seeing just 450 degrees. But something already happened to show a great paradox, and if this paradox can be expanded to the greatest degree, I only speculate how far that paradox could go... Heres how that paradox works... For a simple analogy I may measure 200 volts on a coil system, I have another coil system also measuring 200 volts inside as resonant voltage rise. The q of my coil systems are over 20, meaning a 10 volt alternator input creates 200 volts internal voltage rise on each system. NOW I measure the voltage rise with respect to each system referenced to the other. If only two systems are employed I measure a perfect 180 phase angle, so then there is 400 volts between those opposites. Now I ad the third coil system. There should be zero volts reference between one of those third sides, but it dont happen. Typically on the first case example the 180 phasing went to 160, which should leave only 20 degrees phase angle difference to either side for the third system , but it read 60 degrees, over 40 degrees what is possible. For an acting 540 degree phase angle between all systems, that would mean each side reads 200 individually and all sides read 400 between them. That wont happen at all but if it were perfect it would. The resonances are manufacturing an opposite within an opposite within an opposite, which aint possible in our dimension or understanding of time. Time will be expanded to create an extra dimension to create an extra reference point. In our 3-d reference frame those things cant be done, but by expansion of things into another dimension, al la twilight zone of the outer limits of understanding, if it is there it will be noted to be there, and anyone else can form theories as to how and why it got there, it first needs to be demonstrated.... If that works it seems possible to go even further to create 720 degrees of time reference change, but at this point in time it just seems stupid to even speculate about that matter... I've had my peace here about ideas, so the effort is to turn ideas into reality. Speculation means nothing; practice means everything... Sincerely speculative today... But tommorow is out there... If the time /space continuum still exists then in the future,,, I will make note of it... HDN Done for Now with mere speculations... Sincerely HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 22:00:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j424xPYe014375; Sun, 1 May 2005 21:59:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j424xORT014355; Sun, 1 May 2005 21:59:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:59:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050502055934.00698f00 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 05:59:34 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Resent-Message-ID: <3Hkd8C.A.LgD.rObdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:13 am 30-04-05 -0700, you wrote: >Frank and Richard, > >> Your "a cord of three strands is not quickly broken" >> quote is interesting. Could this have referred to a >> braid or plait I wonder. > >Most likely. And an anthropologist might suspect that somewhere >back in prehistory, women taught men that plaiting animal or plant >fibers, like they did with their own hair, would make for a >stronger rope... or is that sexist? > >Anyway, the thought occurred that perhaps there is also something >"special" but not easy to quantify, along the lines of Frank's >"third component" in three-phase AC, which makes it the standard >over other possibilities. With only two polarities, one might ask >why have three-phase at all, or else... if there is any advantage >to using multiple phases, why not have four or six, etc? (which >actually you do have in transformers). There is information on the >net about this, but none of it seems to have the complete answer - >other than **cost** or should I say, "duh, it all gets back to >cost." >In fact, three-phase is more economical than any other number of >phases, it seems, in that it uses less tonnage of a conductor to >get the same amount of power from point A to point B. But for >applications like rectifiers and synchronous converters where DC >is produced, it is most efficient to use six-phase AC input, which >is easily produced from three-phase in a transformer. > >The experts say that if you are transmitting a certain amount of >power single-phase, adding one more conductor operated at the same >line voltage and current and using three-phase will increase the >power transmitted by 72% with only a 50% increase in the amount of >copper and losses. That advantage is obvious, but is there more to >the story than cost and why is that the case anyway ? Terry >probably knows the answer... or maybe it is part of the mystery of >a spiral helix... ;-) > >Jones Your comment about three phase, Jones, has sent me back to look at my Interactive Hierarchical Mechanics note, N103/87. When I got down to equations (28) and (29)..... u^2 + v^2 = c^2 .....(28) u[0]^2 + v[0]^2 = c^2 .....(29) .......I realised where the third component comes from. The internal velocities, v and v[0] (reciprocal masses) are closed path velocities. The simplest close path is a circle and this has two components, the tangential velocity and the radial velocity towards the centre So we can write, v^2 = t^2 + w^2 .....(30) v[0]^2 = t[0]^2 + w[0]^2 .....(31) Substituting for v^2 and v[0]^2 in (28) and (29) gives, u^2 + t^2 + w^2 = c^2 .....(32) u[0]^2 + t[0]^2 + w[0]^2 = c^2 .....(33) so we can see that light indeed has a braided 3 phase structure. I remember once reading a complaint someone was making about the light being represented by two sine waves which were at right angles but in phase. He claimed that it should have been represented by two sine waves which were at right angles but 180 degrees out of phase. Of course if you think that only E and M are involved then these would seem to be the only two alternatives. It would appear that both are wrong and light should be represented by three sine waves which are at 120 degrees to each other and 120 degrees out of phase; in short by a braided structure. Wasn't it Tesla who first hit upon the three phase notion? I shall have to google. 8^) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 22:05:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4255OxF017725; Sun, 1 May 2005 22:05:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4255MP6017705; Sun, 1 May 2005 22:05:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 22:05:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200551255940 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Searching for issue # 13/14, March - June 1997 of Infinite Energy magazine Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 22:05:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d84aae80e871893b0ce42da9d1b703f1ada2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.71.66 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 31, 2005 Greg, Contact IE by e-mail, phone or fax. They can satisfy your need for the issue. IE has a website. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Prometheus Effect > To: OU Builders ; FreeEnergy ; Prometheus Effect Group ; Vortex > Date: 5/1/2005 8:51:59 PM > Subject: Searching for issue # 13/14, March - June 1997 of Infinite Energy magazine > > Hi Guys, > > Do any of you have the double issue 13/14 1997 of > Infinite Energy? On pages 59 - 61 there is a review of > the SMOT titled: > > The Things We Get Up To...... > SMOT: Simplified Over-Unity Toy > by Christopher Tinsley > > I wish to write a review on the paper and the > incorrect conclusions formed. I will then publish my > review and send a copy to Infinite Energy for their > action. Hopefully they will do the right thing, > publish my review and help to set the record straight > that the Prometheus Effect at the heart of the SMOT is > OU. > > Any help would be appreciated as when I asked Jed > Rothwell for assistance I was told to "Go to Hell". > Guess he was having a bad day. > > > Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, > Greg > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. > http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 1 22:50:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j425oZ8o030918; Sun, 1 May 2005 22:50:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j425oXAE030900; Sun, 1 May 2005 22:50:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 22:50:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=pqI8n8loMzIkcN0T+yrqgOHAyL8GQjTCTdHaGtkdMNqrdXgZxJ9RapHxhUxbuJ1a4xjW7gt56/m9kozQH0ylktDbtFvHfdcSf01L/KoqLwI7JjcI5Cx87vP8ePKhNafS0WXnC2cZtqk9rwZz6dAkfqHir3U30Me/3bINC9F827U= ; Message-ID: <20050502055019.15853.qmail web41505.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 22:50:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Spiral helixes To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Grimer wrote: > Wasn't it Tesla who first hit upon the three phase > notion? A popular misconception indeed... I have combed through early Tesla writings contained in the somewhat unimpresssive "Inventions, Researches, and Writings of Nikola Tesla" by Thomas Commerford Martin and found absolutely NOT one reference to three phase. In fact EVERY reference concerning poly phasing schemes is couched in reference to quadrature or poly phase, but never once is three phase even mentioned... My only thought in the matter is that Tesla, being highly superstitious always avoided any reference to three.... It was bad luck for him. He in fact wrote about his own mental illness and mental breakdown in his own short autobiography. perhaps some references to three exist there, I havent read it for years, good idea to look at that again. Many folks have added things to what Tesla has said, to the point that they said/ he said ect... that become myths. I for one would be glad to hear about any context with Tesla and three phase. Undoubtably he was most familiar with the scheme, since thats how polyphasing developed, but why are there no direct references to that???? Even more mysterious was his infatuation with the no 3 and its derivatives. ( again from biographers) Again those are the reports from those aquaintances, those biographers, but not one word from the man himself. Tesla had nothing to do with three phase. I would be glad to see anything to indicate that to be otherwise or true, because I havent seen one iota of such references or evidence. Sincerely HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 00:56:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j427tuQF028323; Mon, 2 May 2005 00:55:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j427tsil028278; Mon, 2 May 2005 00:55:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 00:55:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050502085604.00693f84 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 08:56:04 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:50 pm 01-05-05 -0700, you wrote: >--- Grimer wrote: >> Wasn't it Tesla who first hit upon the three phase >> notion? > A popular misconception indeed... I have combed > through early Tesla writings contained in the somewhat > unimpresssive > "Inventions, Researches, and Writings of > Nikola Tesla" > by Thomas Commerford Martin > and found absolutely NOT one reference to three phase. > In fact EVERY reference concerning poly phasing > schemes is couched in reference to quadrature or poly > phase, but never once is three phase even mentioned... > > My only thought in the matter is that Tesla, being > highly superstitious always avoided any reference to > three.... Perhaps, like Newton, he was a closet Unitarian, eh! ;-) >It was bad luck for him. He in fact wrote > about his own mental illness and mental breakdown in > his own short autobiography. perhaps some references > to three exist there, I havent read it for years, good > idea to look at that again. > Many folks have added things to what Tesla has said, > to the point that they said/ he said ect... that > become myths. I for one would be glad to hear about > any context with Tesla and three phase. Undoubtably he > was most familiar with the scheme, since thats how > polyphasing developed, but why are there no direct > references to that???? > Even more mysterious was his infatuation with the no 3 > and its derivatives. ( again from biographers) Again > those are the reports from those aquaintances, those > biographers, but not one word from the man himself. > Tesla had nothing to do with three phase. I would be > glad to see anything to indicate that to be otherwise > or true, because I havent seen one iota of such > references or evidence. > Sincerely HDN > Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ Fascinating stuff. 8^) Thanks Harvey. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 01:40:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j428e8QF006498; Mon, 2 May 2005 01:40:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j428e7L9006487; Mon, 2 May 2005 01:40:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 01:40:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050502094022.00690f70 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 09:40:22 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was curious as to what would happen if I made a plait of three strings and drew one of them out. I used a fairly stiff plastic string, poly-something, and loosely plaited the three strands. The ends of each strand were marked so that I would know which one to pull and which two to hold. I was expecting the two which were left to be coiled around one another but to my surprise they were completely separate. Jones mentioned the structure of DNA. I wonder if there is some connection. Cheers Frank Grimer =============================== et plectentes coronam de spinis =============================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 03:39:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42AcwQF000683; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:38:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42AcugC000671; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:38:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 03:38:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050502113910.00690904 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:39:10 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:40 am 02-05-05 +0000, Grimer wrote: > I was curious as to what would happen if I made a > plait of three strings and drew one of them out. I > used a fairly stiff plastic string, poly-something, > and loosely plaited the three strands. > > The ends of each strand were marked so that I would > know which one to pull and which two to hold. > > I was expecting the two which were left to be coiled > around one another but to my surprise they were > completely separate. > > Jones mentioned the structure of DNA. I wonder if > there is some connection. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > =============================== > et plectentes coronam de spinis > =============================== To further my investigation into the three dimensional structure of a braid I loosely platted three stiff wires together. The plait was too stiff to draw one of the strands out so I cut a strand into sections with snips so that the short pieces fell away from the braid. Sure enough, two completely separate strands were left. These strands had the structure of a sine wave which rotated along its length. I remember reading once a complaint that the rotational polarization of light tended to be overlooked. I can now understand why. Presumably the speed of the 3 platted sine waves is differentially attenuated in the same way that the speed of blue, yellow and red light is differentially attenuated in refraction. Whilst on the subject of visible radiation it is worth noting that three separate colours are needed to make white light and that we have three sets of cones for the detection of visible light. =============================================================== http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/rodcone.html The experimental evidence suggests that among the cones there are three different types of colour reception. Response curves for the three types of cones have been determined. Since the perception of colour depends on the firing of these three types of nerve cells, it follows that visible colour can be mapped in terms of three numbers called tristimulus values. Colour perception has been successfully modeled in terms of tristimulus values and mapped on the CIE chromaticity diagram. =============================================================== A coincidence? I very much doubt it. Cheers Frank Grimer ======================================= dixitque Deus fiat lux et facta est lux ======================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 05:08:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42C88QF022834; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:08:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42C87C5022822; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:08:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 05:08:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=guv9CZjNZuxKDgaCcRfyTxWu2aMYoUSY8VWDwoD+fyicxPyGQw70z/9asYMFDgBj; Message-ID: <410-2200551211746860 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Magnetic Field Measuring Devices Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 06:07:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a09cfbbbaecb73fae2800fb6facc0ee9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.188 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Very lucid article. The Proton Precession Magnetometer is of particular interest. http://www.autex.spb.ru/download/wavelet/books/sensor/CH48.PDF Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Very lucid article.
 
The Proton Precession Magnetometer is of particular interest.
 
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 05:28:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42CSHQF027570; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:28:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42CSGO9027556; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:28:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 05:28:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 8:28:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050502122810.GZNN2470.imf19aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Robin van Spaandonk > In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 01 May 2005 09:48:26 > -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > >Because, it will be pointed in a different direction on signal return > >due to the rotation of the earth. > [snip] > ..and thus would not be picked up. Good point. Doesn't anyone > listen on radar frequencies without using directional antennae? Very good. It's amazing how much trouble I have on the SETI list making people understand this. Either ET must be tracking the earth with a directional antenna or ET must be using an isotropic radiator. Note the Nipponese Ham was using 3.5 MHz. Since free space attenuation (dB) is given by: 96.6 + 20 log (F) + 20 log (D) the frequency component forces the use of directional antennae at higher, common radar frequencies. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 08:13:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42FCqQF021778; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:12:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42FCo3o021760; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:12:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:12:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c54f29$660934e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050502043329.66426.qmail web41522.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:12:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <2eb4SC.A.4TF.yNkdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harvey, > Heres how that paradox works... [snip] This is very interesting and, over the years, you have said similar things in prior posts that lead one to believe that in 3-phase - "symmetry in preserved" - at least there is that tendency (which can somehow get back to ZPE). Furthermore, it seems that you have been trying to exploit this "natural" tendency in your experiments by presenting an interaction situation where one "leg" of 3-phase is "energy deficient." Is that a fair appraisal? There are many potential ways to "pump" or exploit ZPE, at least in theory, and letting nature try to preserve symmetry by supplying excess (rather than taking it away) is one potential way which I have not seen in any other experiments except Harvey's. I don't think that is giving away anything proprietary, but is an accurate synopsis of the situation? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 08:27:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42FQoQF026793; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:26:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42FQnwr026776; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:26:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:26:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Magnetic Field Measuring Devices Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:29:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <410-2200551211746860 earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, Good introductory article, but I suspect the author was just googling for data after looking at the freq. ranges listed for the various detector modalities. Many seem way too high for commercial devices ( can you find me a commercial hall effect device that's good to better than 100KHz? ) others too low for theoretical capability ( proton precession doesn't _have_ to be limited to 2 hz, it's a design consideration. ) I was very hopeful with the new magnetoresistive devices that we could see commercial devices in the MHz range, but the linearity sucks so you end up with something only really good for square wave/counter sensing. Is anyone aware of a commercial H field sensor that can see from DC into the MHz range, that's reasonably linear? Tek sort of solved this problem by making mixed mode detectors, using hall for the low freq. and a coil for the RF. K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 7:08 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Magnetic Field Measuring Devices Very lucid article. The Proton Precession Magnetometer is of particular interest. http://www.autex.spb.ru/download/wavelet/books/sensor/CH48.PDF Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 08:32:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42FWRQF028671; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:32:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42FWONV028628; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:32:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:32:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c54f2c$1e59bcc0$2f027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20050502113910.00690904 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:32:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The first lesson given in art is there are 3 primary colors. Interesting the ancient Americans used the same word for green and blue, mystified that learned white people would use two different words to describe what they considered to be the same color. On the disbursing of light an entire different "focus" ( pun intended) may be necessary. Studying the structure of light as a 3 braided component can give one a headache. "BUT" , again nature comes to the rescue of science in revealing the structural form of a chambered nautulus. Hmm.. lets consider the structure of the chamber that uses a spiral and a parabolic function as a clue. Is this chambered type structure similar to how light is disbursed? Light is absolutely fascinating in its ability to disburse yet be measured in length. One can wonder if the measurement therefore is truly linear in its math function or an abberation. I wonder how Duke University's FEL program is faring. Perhaps the next generation of visionaries have began mapping their strategies. For sure , the computer math software is lagging. Rice University had a great parallel computing work started and lost sight. Quadratic computing software for theoretical math computations is vital to explore the next generation of physics. Every opportunity I have to voice this need is received with a " blank" stare during my visits to Houston. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 6:39 AM Subject: Re: Spiral helixes > At 09:40 am 02-05-05 +0000, Grimer wrote: > >> I was curious as to what would happen if I made a >> plait of three strings and drew one of them out. I >> used a fairly stiff plastic string, poly-something, >> and loosely plaited the three strands. >> >> The ends of each strand were marked so that I would >> know which one to pull and which two to hold. >> >> I was expecting the two which were left to be coiled >> around one another but to my surprise they were >> completely separate. >> >> Jones mentioned the structure of DNA. I wonder if >> there is some connection. >> >> Cheers >> >> Frank Grimer >> >> =============================== >> et plectentes coronam de spinis >> =============================== > > > > To further my investigation into the three dimensional > structure of a braid I loosely platted three stiff wires > together. The plait was too stiff to draw one of the > strands out so I cut a > strand into sections with snips so that the short pieces > fell away from the braid. Sure enough, two completely > separate strands were left. > > These strands had the structure of a sine wave which > rotated along its length. > > I remember reading once a complaint that the rotational > polarization of light tended to be overlooked. I can now > understand why. Presumably the speed of the 3 platted > sine waves is differentially attenuated in the same way > that the speed of blue, yellow and red light is > differentially attenuated in refraction. Whilst on the > subject of visible radiation it is worth noting that > three separate colours are needed to make white light > and that we have three sets of cones for the detection > of visible light. > > =============================================================== > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/rodcone.html > > The experimental evidence suggests that among the cones there > are three different types of colour reception. Response curves > for the three types of cones have been determined. Since the > perception of colour depends on the firing of these three types > of nerve cells, it follows that visible colour can be mapped in > terms of three numbers called tristimulus values. > > Colour perception has been successfully modeled in terms of > tristimulus values and mapped on the CIE chromaticity diagram. > =============================================================== > > A coincidence? I very much doubt it. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > ======================================= > dixitque Deus fiat lux et facta est lux > ======================================= > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 09:07:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42G7UQF013990; Mon, 2 May 2005 09:07:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42G7SMB013973; Mon, 2 May 2005 09:07:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:07:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:14:32 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <046d01c54129$8a6e34b0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <046d01c54129$8a6e34b0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505021214.32979.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 14 April 2005 15:15, Mike Carrell wrote: > In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual alternatives > have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. An important > factor is perceptions of the future. While expansion and a better future > are seen as possible, people will dream, hope, invest and work to make it > real. If that perception turns to gloom and doom and no light at the end of > the tunnel, the collapse of international commerce and investment markets > may be swift. > > A workable road map to a better future will help. This drives the workers > and supporters of LENR technology, but it seems a bit beyond reach at the > moment. There is a likely alternative in Black Light Power. For those here > who have not studied it I will give a sketch of its features and status, > with links to specific data. > > After a decade of R&D, with publication of theory and experiments, > privately funded Black Light Power has entered a phase of negotiation with > a number of potential product development partners who are doing serious > due diligence studies of the BLP technology, including replication of > critical effects in their own laboratories. Many 'new energy' comapnies > have made this claim. All I can say is that I have credible sources and my > own analysis of what has been presented in publications and on the BLP > website. Papers on key aspect of BLP technology have been published in the > Journal of Applied Physics and other senior technical journals in the US > and abroad. > > Mills has been very active in refining his theory and developing > visualizations of the orbitsphere elctron model to aid third party > consultants retained by managements of prospective partners. He has > recently lectured to audiences in Holland. > ...................goes on to long letter... Good use for it. Another use may be to utilize it for rocket propulsion. There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and highly classified. This just may have been the real ticket for actual operation of the recently cancelled single stage to orbit shuttle, one of the 'X' series, X43 or something...could look it up but some of you know of this anyway. What we need is a good single stage to orbit shuttle. Would'nt this be nice if it worked? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 09:32:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42GWXQF023344; Mon, 2 May 2005 09:32:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42GWSGD023287; Mon, 2 May 2005 09:32:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:32:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: OU Builders , FreeEnergy , Prometheus Effect Group , Vortex Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:29:41 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j42GWOQF023234 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 2 May 2005 10:59:26 +1000 (EST), you wrote: >Guys, > >Several have asked and many must have wondered what >happened to the SMOT and Greg Watson from 1997 to >2005. > >Simply stated I walked away from my research due to >depression which at some time was quite severe. I >turned inward, searching to understand my body and how >it works instead of taking the drugs they tried to get >me to take. I now consider myself a Naturopath and a >much healthier and stronger person. > >I created a web site of what I discovered about health >and aging. The missing photo are due to the breakdown >of my 33 year marriage in 2002: > >http://optimalhealth.cia.com.au/ > >It's now 3 years later (2005) and I have found a new >love who has inspired me to gain the strength and >again confront my OU deamons which were: > >1) My inability to make a 100% solid SMOT device and >ship it to the 20 or so people who had sent me $150 >Aus. > >2) The very high level of inability experience by >other folks in trying to replicate and verify my >creations. > >3) Infinite Energy's very negative SMOT review where >the same "It can't happen" bias that Cold Fusion is >subjected to was used against the SMOT. Conventional >theory was used to say it can't be OU. NO one actually >did any measurements. > >4) My inability to deliver a device which could >deliver significant energy to a client / potential >investor. > >To reverse these personally damaging past events and >to again become active in the OU community I created >the Prometheus Effect discussion group where my focus >is to ensure the underlying OU Prometheus Effect is >clearly understood, can be duplicated and measured >before I reveal any new devices I have build. The >focus is on understanding the effect and not on >building devices. > >Once the independent Prometheus Effect verifiers have >reported back their results, I will reveal photos and >a video of the toy SRRS device I'm building. --- Have you seen this?: http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html -- John Fields From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 09:39:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42GdPQF025828; Mon, 2 May 2005 09:39:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42GdOMw025814; Mon, 2 May 2005 09:39:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:39:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "Public" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:39:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Have you seen this?: > > http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html Wow. Notice that the magnets are moving at 90d angles from the motion of the ball in each cycle, in the movie clip. Reminds me of the SMOT. Of course, if it really is a perpetual motion machine, then this'll be the biggest thing since Relativity, and I'll have to apologize to Greg. (I really don't want to do that.) Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 09:52:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42GpjQF029964; Mon, 2 May 2005 09:51:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42Gpg7D029933; Mon, 2 May 2005 09:51:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:51:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: BLP implementation path Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:54:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200505021214.32979.rockcast earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <5JSi0.A.kTH.eqldCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone whose name I don't know writes: >There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing >the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and >highly classified. Hey, how about just writing Anthony and asking him about the project? http://users.rowan.edu/~marchese/ Take your meds, try to act civil, and I'm sure he'll be happy to update you. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 10:30:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42HU5QH016480; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:30:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42HOUKw011367; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:24:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:24:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502132049.03e93940 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:23:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Does anyone want extra copy of book? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I somehow ended up with two copies of a book about computer history: M. Campbell-Kelly, W. Aspray, "Computer -- a history of the information machine," (Basic Books), Sloan Technology Series. This is a pretty good book. If anyone would like it, send me your name and address. First come first serve. U pay postage. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 10:38:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42Hc0QF019523; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:38:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42Hbt42019433; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:37:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:37:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502132609.03e960e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:36:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ICCF-11 papers have arrived Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Paul Biberian sent me the ICCF-11 papers on a CD-ROM. There are 63 papers. I am presently entering them into the EndNote database and rename the files according to the LENR-CANR filename conventions. Most are in Microsoft Word format. When I finish renaming them, I will upload them to a protected folder (with a password). If anyone would like to volunteer to assist me in editing them I would appreciate it. Several of these papers do not seem relevant to cold fusion. One is about water memory and another is about traditional alchemy. I have nothing against these subjects, but I do not think I should include the papers in the LENR-CANR collection, because people come to the site to learn about cold fusion, not these other subjects. Readers here may recall that I had an argument with Gene Mallove about this. He never understood my position. He wanted me to give minority views and unusual ideas a chance to be seen, by allocating webspace to them. I said that the Internet is unbounded and all papers everywhere on it can be accessed with equal ease, so there is no need to present a mixture of papers about different, unrelated subjects in one web site. A paper about alchemy in a web site devoted to that subject can be found just as easily as any paper on LENR-CANR.org, or for that matter as easily as any paper in the White House web site, because nearly all readers find papers via Google. Gene's ideas were obsolete, being based on the limitations of paper publishing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 14:45:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42LiwQF018589; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:44:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42LiPpl018464; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:44:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:44:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 17:43:57 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ICCF-11 papers are depressing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1LRfc.A.bgE.48pdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These ICCF-11 papers are depressing. There are only a few experimental papers. Most are reviews of old work, or papers about theory. As far as I can tell, most of the theory is of the crackpot variety, and usually about subjects unrelated to CF, such as "POSSIBLE NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATION OF NITROGEN IN THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE." This field is dying, and I cannot think of any way to save it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 15:44:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42MiFQF008550; Mon, 2 May 2005 15:44:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42MiCrW008531; Mon, 2 May 2005 15:44:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 15:44:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050502153154.032f5cc0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:32:35 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: ICCF-11 papers are depressing In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hmmm. Not good. At 05:43 PM 5/2/2005 -0400, you wrote: >These ICCF-11 papers are depressing. There are only a few experimental >papers. Most are reviews of old work, or papers about theory. As far as I >can tell, most of the theory is of the crackpot variety, and usually about >subjects unrelated to CF, such as "POSSIBLE NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATION OF >NITROGEN IN THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE." > >This field is dying, and I cannot think of any way to save it. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 16:14:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42NEMQF020975; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:14:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42NEKfj020946; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:14:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:14:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050502231409.A4D4F2999E xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 19:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wouldn't be so depressed if I were you. There are plenty of us out there doing CF research with very encouraging results who are just not publishing anything until the patent situation changes. I wish everyone would give up on the electrolysis work. I think it's just an interesting dead end. No way to scale it up commercially. M. --- On Mon 05/02, Jed Rothwell < jedrothwell mindspring.com > wrote: > These ICCF-11 papers are depressing. There are only a few experimental > papers. Most are reviews of old work, or papers about theory. As far as I > can tell, most of the theory is of the crackpot variety, and usually about > subjects unrelated to CF, such as "POSSIBLE NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATION OF > NITROGEN IN THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE." > This field is dying, and I cannot think of any way to save it. > - Jed _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 16:24:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42NNWQF025578; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:23:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j42NNS5S025535; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:23:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:23:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 19:25:56 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, Mike's right. Electrolysis is a dead end. It's too difficult to control, and messy besides. There are still electroplating plants around, but they have largely been displaced by higher energy deposition processes. Same with CF. Also, with no property rights extended to CF research, I wouldn't be expecting a lot of public research of any value anymore. If you want to see public domain CF work, open up your pocketbook and fund it, or do it yourself. Your library is a good resource; it's what you do to keep the public face of the field going, so do that. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 5:44 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: ICCF-11 papers are depressing These ICCF-11 papers are depressing. There are only a few experimental papers. Most are reviews of old work, or papers about theory. As far as I can tell, most of the theory is of the crackpot variety, and usually about subjects unrelated to CF, such as "POSSIBLE NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATION OF NITROGEN IN THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE." This field is dying, and I cannot think of any way to save it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 17:41:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j430fG4q022832; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:41:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j430f76d022753; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:41:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:41:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <0d6a9d2e-e4de-432b-b2bd-22d5191c3e5b> Message-ID: <008801c54f78$c22399b0$2c79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <046d01c54129$8a6e34b0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <200505021214.32979.rockcast@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:17:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: > > Good use for it. Another use may be to utilize it for rocket propulsion. > There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing > the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and > highly classified. This just may have been the real ticket for actual > operation of the recently cancelled single stage to orbit shuttle, one of > the 'X' series, X43 or something...could look it up but some of you know > of this anyway. What we need is a good single stage to orbit shuttle. > Would'nt this be nice if it worked? A tangle of missing information and unjustified conclusions. Rowan University in New Jersey got a Phase I project from a NASA brand to investigate BLP reactioors for possible use as thrusters for deep space probes where specific impulse overlong times is of the essence. The grant was for $75,000 which was very effectively spent by the Rowan crew, including getting used high vacuum hardware on eBay. By the tiem the money ran out they had not been able to positively demonstrate high veolcity gas from the reactor by spectroscopy because of the glare from the plasma itself. A planned experiment to measure the thrust of the gas in a vacuum chamber was not completed because of lack of funds. NASA declined to find a Phase 2 program, and the project died. At the present level of applicaitons work at BLP only feeble thrust could be expected, suitable for a deep space probe where thurst with a high specific impulse operating over long periods can achieve very high velocities. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 17:42:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j430gW4q023394; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:42:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j430gW8M023386; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:42:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:42:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050503004226.13655.qmail web42107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:42:26 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: RE: Searching for issue # 13/14, March - June 1997 of Infinite Energy magazine To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > April 31, 2005 > Greg, > Contact IE by e-mail, phone or fax. They can > satisfy your need for the issue. IE has a website. Hi Akira, IE can supply ths issue in question. Thanks, Greg Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 19:20:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j432Jk4q025388; Mon, 2 May 2005 19:19:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j432JcjS025331; Mon, 2 May 2005 19:19:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 19:19:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Interesting gas tax proposal Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:21:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. If Horace is still out there, I thought he would get a big kick out of this proposal. http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/4/26/152946/325 It's a non-starter for a couple reasons; but it is somewhat more feasible than a simple tax. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 20:17:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j433Glkj012176; Mon, 2 May 2005 20:16:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j433Gi1X012145; Mon, 2 May 2005 20:16:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:16:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003c01c54f8e$86525460$0d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <046d01c54129$8a6e34b0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <200505021214.32979.rockcast@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:16:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=J_CHICKENPOX_52, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are credible sources that also question BLP supposed claims. Granted they have moved the subject ahead but the due diligence remains in " stage". A recent interview carried by the Houston Chronicle with the new head of Shell Oil USA is revealing. The new head stated that Shell is spending money on hydrogen technology.. emphasizing the point. hmmm. These people have the money to set the rules for the game over the next 10 years. Perhaps GM and Ford understand this better than Toyota. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:14 AM Subject: Re: BLP implementation path > On Thursday 14 April 2005 15:15, Mike Carrell wrote: >> In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual >> alternatives >> have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. An important >> factor is perceptions of the future. While expansion and a better future >> are seen as possible, people will dream, hope, invest and work to make it >> real. If that perception turns to gloom and doom and no light at the end >> of >> the tunnel, the collapse of international commerce and investment markets >> may be swift. >> >> A workable road map to a better future will help. This drives the workers >> and supporters of LENR technology, but it seems a bit beyond reach at the >> moment. There is a likely alternative in Black Light Power. For those >> here >> who have not studied it I will give a sketch of its features and status, >> with links to specific data. >> >> After a decade of R&D, with publication of theory and experiments, >> privately funded Black Light Power has entered a phase of negotiation >> with >> a number of potential product development partners who are doing serious >> due diligence studies of the BLP technology, including replication of >> critical effects in their own laboratories. Many 'new energy' comapnies >> have made this claim. All I can say is that I have credible sources and >> my >> own analysis of what has been presented in publications and on the BLP >> website. Papers on key aspect of BLP technology have been published in >> the >> Journal of Applied Physics and other senior technical journals in the US >> and abroad. >> >> Mills has been very active in refining his theory and developing >> visualizations of the orbitsphere elctron model to aid third party >> consultants retained by managements of prospective partners. He has >> recently lectured to audiences in Holland. >> > ...................goes on to long letter... > > Good use for it. Another use may be to utilize it for rocket propulsion. > There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing > the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and > highly classified. This just may have been the real ticket for actual > operation of the recently cancelled single stage to orbit shuttle, one of > the 'X' series, X43 or something...could look it up but some of you know > of this anyway. What we need is a good single stage to orbit shuttle. > Would'nt this be nice if it worked? > > Standing Bear > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 20:39:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j433dXvw020463; Mon, 2 May 2005 20:39:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j433dVX3020441; Mon, 2 May 2005 20:39:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:39:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004001c54f91$b5690ca0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: Re: ICCF-11 papers are depressing Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:39:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith, > Mike's right. Electrolysis is a dead end. It's too > difficult to control, and messy besides. Well, it's not quite that simple, especially if one believes that there is an overlap between CF and the Mills' hydrino. I am reserving judgment on that detail for now, but if there is the claimed linkage between the two phenomena - then we have the situation where a CF cell could be tailored to output the bulk of its OU photon output as mostly UV light - which is a proven way to split water. All of the D2 and O2 would then be ported over to a fuel cell, recombine to produce current, and then the heavy water reused (less the small part which "shrinks" to power the reaction, and eventually fuses). Plus, there are some mundane uses for electrolysis, even as a ready "source" for transporting the D2 (as opposed to pressurized canisters). The D2 might then be further exploited in the plasma state, if that turns out to be more robust. Heavy water is a good transport medium, if nothing else, not to mention the direct-conversion potential of a heavy water based fuel-cell, should it turn out that one could perfect the OU version as mentioned - making the system into a self-powered recirculating electrolysis-fuel-cell. We have speculated before about the situation where the OU electrolysis gases are recombined at high efficiency in an adjoining fuel-cell and then recycled. Of course, for this to work, one would have to provide a regime where the "excess heat" of the fusion reaction was ouput mostly as UV photons, rather than as heat, per se... which is the BLP connection. Electrolysis might also have a place for isotope production, or in radioactivity remediation, although admittedly none of the past claims seem to be robust enough to hold much potetial for commercial implementation... however, there is one idea that has been mentioned here a couple of times but not yet put into an expeiment, so far as I know. This would be the membrane-type cell, where the cathode is part of the electrolytic cell wall and is "two-way". In this implementation, the electrolysis side of the cathode would just be a "supply" store of deuterium, and on the opposite side of the membrane would be a vacuum. The memebrane could then serve as an accelerating grid (ala Putterman) for ICF. This hybrid concept would be especially synergetic if one could tailor a significant part of the output through the membrane to be the D+D --> tritium reaction. Energetic tritium would then be accelerated to an ICF target, so that you can get a hot fusion reaction on top of the cold fusion reaction. You coul even use the high energy neutron of the hot fusion reaction in a fission hybrid :-) How does a hybrid "Cold-Hot-Fusion-Fission" reactor grab ya...? I think that some fraction of the "depressing" part might turn out to be just the opposite situation, and the present scenario at ICCF-11could end up being that some experimenters who freely reported non-robust results, are now getting results that they are less reluctant to show to the world, that is...untill some kind of IP protection is assured. OK. That is my dose of glowing optimism for today... and no, I didn't forget to take my (symbolic) meds... as in... Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe....You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Morpheus: Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more. (Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a slight gag ...) Burp ... the rest of the story is soon to become filmdom legend... yup, about how the Wachowski brothers got the last laugh (all those ethnic jokes they endured as kids) before becoming multi-billionaires overnight... now they don't even need their cousins to change a light bulb... they can affort to just buy a new palace every time one burns out. ...kinda like the next-gen of free-energy entrepreneurs...? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 21:09:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4349gOu031311; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:09:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4349eb7031298; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:09:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:09:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.50] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <003c01c54f8e$86525460$0d027841 xptower> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shell and Arie DeGeus Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:09:48 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 May 2005 04:09:49.0549 (UTC) FILETIME=[F2FFA9D0:01C54F95] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Shell has spent some time visiting DeGeus who would appear to be BLPs chief, and perhaps only, competitor. His namesake headed Shell for some years, and Arie has a second home in the Netherlands. Their is a family connection. The DeGeus fractional hydrogen system uses a proprietary metal alloy as fuel. When we visited him a few years ago Shell straddled our visit. They decided not to support his work at that time, but it could have simply been too early. He believed they would become a logical Strategic Partner for his work. Perhaps they have. Mark >From: "RC Macaulay" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: BLP implementation path >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:16:39 -0500 > >There are credible sources that also question BLP supposed claims. Granted >they have moved the subject ahead but the due diligence remains in " >stage". >A recent interview carried by the Houston Chronicle with the new head of >Shell Oil USA is revealing. The new head stated that Shell is spending >money on hydrogen technology.. emphasizing the point. hmmm. These people >have the money to set the rules for the game over the next 10 years. >Perhaps GM and Ford understand this better than Toyota. >Richard >----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:14 AM >Subject: Re: BLP implementation path > > >>On Thursday 14 April 2005 15:15, Mike Carrell wrote: >>>In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual >>>alternatives >>>have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. An important >>>factor is perceptions of the future. While expansion and a better future >>>are seen as possible, people will dream, hope, invest and work to make it >>>real. If that perception turns to gloom and doom and no light at the end >>>of >>>the tunnel, the collapse of international commerce and investment markets >>>may be swift. >>> >>>A workable road map to a better future will help. This drives the workers >>>and supporters of LENR technology, but it seems a bit beyond reach at the >>>moment. There is a likely alternative in Black Light Power. For those >>>here >>>who have not studied it I will give a sketch of its features and status, >>>with links to specific data. >>> >>>After a decade of R&D, with publication of theory and experiments, >>>privately funded Black Light Power has entered a phase of negotiation >>>with >>>a number of potential product development partners who are doing serious >>>due diligence studies of the BLP technology, including replication of >>>critical effects in their own laboratories. Many 'new energy' comapnies >>>have made this claim. All I can say is that I have credible sources and >>>my >>>own analysis of what has been presented in publications and on the BLP >>>website. Papers on key aspect of BLP technology have been published in >>>the >>>Journal of Applied Physics and other senior technical journals in the US >>>and abroad. >>> >>>Mills has been very active in refining his theory and developing >>>visualizations of the orbitsphere elctron model to aid third party >>>consultants retained by managements of prospective partners. He has >>>recently lectured to audiences in Holland. >>> >>...................goes on to long letter... >> >>Good use for it. Another use may be to utilize it for rocket propulsion. >>There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing >>the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and >>highly classified. This just may have been the real ticket for actual >>operation of the recently cancelled single stage to orbit shuttle, one of >>the 'X' series, X43 or something...could look it up but some of you know >>of this anyway. What we need is a good single stage to orbit shuttle. >>Would'nt this be nice if it worked? >> >>Standing Bear >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 21:11:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j434BXOu031953; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:11:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j434BUGx031930; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:11:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:11:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.50] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shell and Arie DeGeus (with spelling error corrected) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:11:18 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 May 2005 04:11:19.0371 (UTC) FILETIME=[288969B0:01C54F96] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Shell has spent some time visiting DeGeus who would appear to be BLPs chief, and perhaps only, competitor. His namesake headed Shell for some years, and Arie has a second home in the Netherlands. There is a family connection. The DeGeus fractional hydrogen system uses a proprietary metal alloy as fuel. When we visited him a few years ago Shell straddled our visit. They decided not to support his work at that time, but it could have simply been too early. He believed they would become a logical Strategic Partner for his work. Perhaps they have. Mark >From: "RC Macaulay" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: BLP implementation path >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:16:39 -0500 > >There are credible sources that also question BLP supposed claims. Granted >they have moved the subject ahead but the due diligence remains in " >stage". >A recent interview carried by the Houston Chronicle with the new head of >Shell Oil USA is revealing. The new head stated that Shell is spending >money on hydrogen technology.. emphasizing the point. hmmm. These people >have the money to set the rules for the game over the next 10 years. >Perhaps GM and Ford understand this better than Toyota. >Richard >----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:14 AM >Subject: Re: BLP implementation path > > >>On Thursday 14 April 2005 15:15, Mike Carrell wrote: >>>In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual >>>alternatives >>>have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. An important >>>factor is perceptions of the future. While expansion and a better future >>>are seen as possible, people will dream, hope, invest and work to make it >>>real. If that perception turns to gloom and doom and no light at the end >>>of >>>the tunnel, the collapse of international commerce and investment markets >>>may be swift. >>> >>>A workable road map to a better future will help. This drives the workers >>>and supporters of LENR technology, but it seems a bit beyond reach at the >>>moment. There is a likely alternative in Black Light Power. For those >>>here >>>who have not studied it I will give a sketch of its features and status, >>>with links to specific data. >>> >>>After a decade of R&D, with publication of theory and experiments, >>>privately funded Black Light Power has entered a phase of negotiation >>>with >>>a number of potential product development partners who are doing serious >>>due diligence studies of the BLP technology, including replication of >>>critical effects in their own laboratories. Many 'new energy' comapnies >>>have made this claim. All I can say is that I have credible sources and >>>my >>>own analysis of what has been presented in publications and on the BLP >>>website. Papers on key aspect of BLP technology have been published in >>>the >>>Journal of Applied Physics and other senior technical journals in the US >>>and abroad. >>> >>>Mills has been very active in refining his theory and developing >>>visualizations of the orbitsphere elctron model to aid third party >>>consultants retained by managements of prospective partners. He has >>>recently lectured to audiences in Holland. >>> >>...................goes on to long letter... >> >>Good use for it. Another use may be to utilize it for rocket propulsion. >>There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing >>the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and >>highly classified. This just may have been the real ticket for actual >>operation of the recently cancelled single stage to orbit shuttle, one of >>the 'X' series, X43 or something...could look it up but some of you know >>of this anyway. What we need is a good single stage to orbit shuttle. >>Would'nt this be nice if it worked? >> >>Standing Bear >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 21:30:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j434UbYK006225; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:30:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j434UZLk006206; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:30:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:30:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF-11 papers have arrived Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 14:30:06 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502132609.03e960e0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502132609.03e960e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j434UWYK006029 Resent-Message-ID: <0K8sd.A.1gB.q5vdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 02 May 2005 13:36:20 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Jean-Paul Biberian sent me the ICCF-11 papers on a CD-ROM. There are 63 >papers. I am presently entering them into the EndNote database and rename >the files according to the LENR-CANR filename conventions. Most are in >Microsoft Word format. When I finish renaming them, I will upload them to a >protected folder (with a password). If anyone would like to volunteer to >assist me in editing them I would appreciate it. In what sense do they need to be edited? > >Several of these papers do not seem relevant to cold fusion. One is about >water memory and another is about traditional alchemy. I have nothing >against these subjects, but I do not think I should include the papers in >the LENR-CANR collection, because people come to the site to learn about >cold fusion, not these other subjects. There may well be a link between CF transmutation and traditional alchemy. > >Readers here may recall that I had an argument with Gene Mallove about >this. He never understood my position. He wanted me to give minority views >and unusual ideas a chance to be seen, by allocating webspace to them. I >said that the Internet is unbounded and all papers everywhere on it can be >accessed with equal ease, so there is no need to present a mixture of >papers about different, unrelated subjects in one web site. A paper about >alchemy in a web site devoted to that subject can be found just as easily >as any paper on LENR-CANR.org, or for that matter as easily as any paper in >the White House web site, because nearly all readers find papers via >Google. Gene's ideas were obsolete, being based on the limitations of paper >publishing. Here you make the assumption that the alchemy papers are in fact unrelated. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 21:38:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j434bVZc008885; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:37:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j434bE3C008574; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:37:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:37:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 14:36:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050502122810.GZNN2470.imf19aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050502122810.GZNN2470.imf19aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j434agYK008305 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Mon, 2 May 2005 8:28:10 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Very good. It's amazing how much trouble I have on the SETI list making people understand this. Either ET must be tracking the earth with a directional antenna or ET must be using an isotropic radiator. ET doesn't use EM at all, he uses FTL. :] > >Note the Nipponese Ham was using 3.5 MHz. Since free space attenuation (dB) is given by: > >96.6 + 20 log (F) + 20 log (D) > >the frequency component forces the use of directional antennae at higher, common radar frequencies. That still doesn't answer my question though. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 21:53:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j434q1jx016229; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:53:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j434pxPM016205; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:51:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:51:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: BLP implementation path Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 00:53:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200505030005.19450.rockcast earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A guy whose name I still don't know writes: >The web site is a resume. Dr. Marchese is highly qualified as a >researcher and has worked on several government projects. All >of these will have had a classification of confidential or better. >Without a need to know and the required clearances, a requester >to him pertaining to even these public projects would soon run >afoul of Title 18, USC! Gosh, that sounds dangerous! Better not click any of those links to his research pages, http://users.rowan.edu/~marchese/blr.html You might learn all about the secret project! And what's this? The full report in PDF? http://users.rowan.edu/~marchese/final-niac.pdf If you read it, he'll probably have to kill you.... If I sound frustrated, well, I am. Tony's an educator, read the links and write him and he'll tell you all about the project he did for NASA. Or don't read them, and spout conspiracy theories on Vo. Your call. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 2 23:43:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j436hofj020435; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:43:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j436hjHf020409; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:43:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 23:43:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050503064339.57370.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 16:43:39 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Public wrote: > Have you seen this?: > > http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html Hi Craig, Not to be a wet blanket but that big spring in the central column could be a worry? Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 05:20:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43CKRJ8007074; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:20:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43CKOan007054; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:20:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 05:20:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 8:20:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050503122017.YUFS1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Robin van Spaandonk > That still doesn't answer my question though. I'm sorry, the question was regarding googling echo returns from the moon? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 05:59:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43CxUJ8022706; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:59:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43CxQPr022672; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:59:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 05:59:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c54fdf$eb15c160$ee027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Shell and Arie DeGeus Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:59:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C54FB6.0138F7C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C54FB6.0138F7C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C54FB6.013D8BA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C54FB6.013D8BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThanks Mark Goldes for making mention of the connection with DeGeus = and Shell. As I recall the news article , Shell emphasized the point = that Shell was spending their research money on hydrogen. Looking at the background of Shell's new US head, I see he has worked = with the "right" people .. like GE etc. Why do I get the feeling the winners have already been decided before = the game is played < grin> Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C54FB6.013D8BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Thanks Mark Goldes for making mention of the connection with DeGeus = and  Shell. As I recall the news article , Shell emphasized the = point that=20 Shell was spending their research money on hydrogen.
 
Looking at the background of Shell's new US head, I see he has = worked with=20 the "right" people .. like GE etc.
 
Why do I get the feeling the winners have already been decided = before the=20 game is played < grin>
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C54FB6.013D8BA0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C54FB6.0138F7C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001101c54fdf$e9b965b0$ee027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C54FB6.0138F7C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 07:09:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43E9QJ8022176; Tue, 3 May 2005 07:09:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43E7mE5019802; Tue, 3 May 2005 07:07:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:07:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=iMAayPhsqMrAheqpN4bxqOu+iFLoJwIR+yuQDu6eRtb3ZVmmdf106UxV/fH74AQu; Message-ID: <410-2200552313720900 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:07:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cbe78066219310feca397e907d975770350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.110 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Michael Foster wrote: > > I wish everyone would give up on the electrolysis work. I think > it's just an interesting dead end. No way to scale it up > commercially. > Agreed. Too much energy invested into getting the effect. A bit soon to say anything for certain, but the 10 stacked (tissue paper spacer) Neodymium super magnets (10 mm OD x 5 mm ID)in 100 grams of distilled H2O (about ~ 10^19 deuterons/gram H2O) in well-insulated "cups" are showing a few degree C temperature rise over a 48 hour soak. At 1.0 milliwatts it should take 116 hours (4.8 days) to get 1.0 deg C temperature rise. A similar well-insulated cup with a ceramic magnet stack is showing lessor or null results. I've got about $10.00 US and plenty of free time invested in this thing so far. But, since the Neodymium super magnets are only good up to 8o deg C if it pans out I have an eye on using it for nuke waste remediation. Maybe. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Michael Foster wrote:
 
>
> I wish everyone would give up on the electrolysis work.  I think
> it's just an interesting dead end.  No way to scale it up
> commercially.
>
Agreed.  Too much energy invested into getting the effect.
 
A bit soon to say anything for certain, but the 10 stacked (tissue paper spacer)
Neodymium super magnets (10 mm OD x 5 mm ID)in 100 grams of distilled H2O (about ~ 10^19 deuterons/gram H2O) in
well-insulated "cups" are showing a few degree C temperature rise
over a 48 hour soak. At 1.0 milliwatts it should take 116 hours (4.8 days)
to get 1.0 deg C temperature rise.
A similar well-insulated cup with a ceramic magnet stack is showing lessor or null results.
 
I've got about $10.00 US and plenty of free time invested in this thing so far. But, since the
Neodymium super magnets are only good up to 8o deg C if it pans out I have an eye on
using it for nuke waste remediation. Maybe.
 
Frederick
 

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 07:32:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43EWFJ8031916; Tue, 3 May 2005 07:32:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43EWCov031870; Tue, 3 May 2005 07:32:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:32:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503102932.03cf34b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 10:31:55 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing In-Reply-To: <20050502231409.A4D4F2999E xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050502231409.A4D4F2999E xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2fMtmC.A.4xH.rt4dCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: >I wouldn't be so depressed if I were you. There are plenty of us >out there doing CF research with very encouraging results who are >just not publishing anything until the patent situation changes. Frankly, I doubt there are any that could rival Szpak or Iwamura >I wish everyone would give up on the electrolysis work. Most of the experimental papers are about glow discharge or ion beam work. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 07:48:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43EmXJ8004999; Tue, 3 May 2005 07:48:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43EmVo3004976; Tue, 3 May 2005 07:48:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:48:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503103343.03cf6eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 10:48:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: ICCF-11 papers have arrived In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502132609.03e960e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3220546==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3220546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In what sense do [the papers] need to be edited? In papers written by non-native speakers, the English needs work. There is a broad range of problems. Papers by German authors may need a few minor adjustments of the definite and indefinite articles ("the" and "a"). Papers written by Japanese authors have many mistakes but I know how to fix them. Papers written by Russians tend to be the most difficult for me. Here is an example. Before editing: "ANNOTATION The study of structure of elemental and isotopic composition of Ti cathode before and after an irradiation by ions glow discharge in plasma with an excess heat effect was fulfilled. The exposure was carried out by deuterium ions with a voltage of the discharge less than 1000 volt, with current of 10-20 ." After corrections and consulting with the author: "ABSTRACT In this study we report on the surface structure, distribution and isotopic composition of elements found on Ti cathodes before and after glow discharge in plasma, during which excess heat was produced. Irradiation was carried out with deuterium ions with a discharge voltage below 1000 volts, with a current of 10 to 20 mA." > >the LENR-CANR collection, because people come to the site to learn about > >cold fusion, not these other subjects. > >There may well be a link between CF transmutation and traditional >alchemy. There may be, but for that matter there is probably a link between CF and special relativity (mass-energy equivalence), yet I do not have papers about relativity at LENR-CANR.org. In the broadest sense CF is probably related to many different fields. If you want to read about these other fields you go to textbooks or web sites about them. If a paper about traditional alchemy included a section with specific suggestions showing how it might be linked to CF, I would include it, even if I thought the link was bogus. A paper showing a relationship between relativity and CF would also be acceptable. I will grant the restriction is somewhat arbitrary, but if we have no restrictions we will end up with a huge pile of unrelated material, which will make it difficult for people to find what they are looking for. Furthermore, as I said, people who want to learn about alchemy on the Internet can do that very easily thanks to Google. We do not need to supply the links anymore. People make their own links. - Jed --=====================_3220546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

In what sense do [the papers] need to be edited?

In papers written by non-native speakers, the English needs work. There is a broad range of problems. Papers by German authors may need a few minor adjustments of the definite and indefinite articles ("the" and "a"). Papers written by Japanese authors have many mistakes but I know how to fix them. Papers written by Russians tend to be the most difficult for me. Here is an example. Before editing:

"ANNOTATION
The study of structure of elemental and isotopic composition of Ti cathode before and after an irradiation by ions glow discharge in plasma with an excess heat effect was fulfilled. The exposure was carried out by deuterium ions with a voltage of the discharge less than 1000 volt, with current of 10-20 ."

After corrections and consulting with the author:

"ABSTRACT

In this study we report on the surface structure, distribution and isotopic composition of elements found on Ti cathodes before and after glow discharge in plasma, during which excess heat was produced. Irradiation was carried out with deuterium ions with a discharge voltage below 1000 volts, with a current of 10 to 20 mA."


>the LENR-CANR collection, because people come to the site to learn about
>cold fusion, not these other subjects.

There may well be a link between CF transmutation and traditional
alchemy.

There may be, but for that matter there is probably a link between CF and special relativity (mass-energy equivalence), yet I do not have papers about relativity at LENR-CANR.org. In the broadest sense CF is probably related to many different fields. If you want to read about these other fields you go to textbooks or web sites about them. If a paper about traditional alchemy included a section with specific suggestions showing how it might be linked to CF, I would include it, even if I thought the link was bogus. A paper showing a relationship between relativity and CF would also be acceptable.

I will grant the restriction is somewhat arbitrary, but if we have no restrictions we will end up with a huge pile of unrelated material, which will make it difficult for people to find what they are looking for. Furthermore, as I said, people who want to learn about alchemy on the Internet can do that very easily thanks to Google. We do not need to supply the links anymore. People make their own links.

- Jed
--=====================_3220546==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 07:55:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43EsmJ8007370; Tue, 3 May 2005 07:54:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Esk7H007345; Tue, 3 May 2005 07:54:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:54:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Heavy Metal Recall Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:54:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050503145440.EVZW1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=634679 "A newly discovered fragment of the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament indicates that, as far as the Antichrist goes, theologians, scholars, heavy metal groups, and television evangelists have got the wrong number. Instead of 666, it's actually the far less ominous 616." Hmmm, I wonder if they will change the Proctor&Gamble logo? :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:09:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43F9DJ8013452; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:09:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43F9AjX013419; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:09:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:09:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503105642.03cf4a50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 11:08:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Example of borderline paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Below is a good example of a paper that may or may not have anything to do with CF. This one looks borderline to me. Perhaps it is more about conventional nuclear physics than CF. The paper describes an exotic theory about magnetic monopolls causing the Chernobyl explosion. I guess that makes it loosely related. Furthermore, the authors might find it difficult to publish this at some other web site, so I would include it. Whether the hypothesis is scientifically valid or not is another issue, which in this case I am not qualified to judge. This sample also gives you an idea of the quality of the English in a typical paper. It is not bad. A half-hour of editing should whip it into shape. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - On the possible magnetic mechanism of shortening the runaway of RBMK-1000 reactor at Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant D.V. Filippov, G. Lochak, A.A. Rukhadze, L.I. Urutskoev The official conclusion about the origin of the explosion at the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant (CNPP) is shown to contradict significantly the experimental facts available from the accident. The period of reactor runaway in the accident is shown to be unexplainable in the framework of the existing physical models of nuclear fission reactor. A hypothesis is suggested for a possible magnetic mechanism which may be responsible for the rise-up of the reactor reactivity coefficient at the fourth power generating unit of CNPP in the course of testing the turbine generator via running it under its own momentum. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:23:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43FMsJ8018562; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:22:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43FMrcQ018555; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:22:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:22:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 10:22:41 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: <20050503064339.57370.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050503064339.57370.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j43FMpJ8018526 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 3 May 2005 16:43:39 +1000 (EST), you wrote: >--- Public wrote: >> Have you seen this?: >> >> http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html > >Hi Craig, > >Not to be a wet blanket but that big spring in the >central column could be a worry? --- In what respect? -- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:27:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43FROJ8020612; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:27:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43FRMhD020599; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:27:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:27:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:35:04 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <046d01c54129$8a6e34b0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <200505021214.32979.rockcast@earthlink.net> <008801c54f78$c22399b0$2c79ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <008801c54f78$c22399b0$2c79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505031135.04430.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 02 May 2005 20:17, Mike Carrell wrote: > Standing Bear wrote: > > > > > Good use for it. Another use may be to utilize it for rocket propulsion. > > There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing > > the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and > > highly classified. This just may have been the real ticket for actual > > operation of the recently cancelled single stage to orbit shuttle, one of > > the 'X' series, X43 or something...could look it up but some of you know > > of this anyway. What we need is a good single stage to orbit shuttle. > > Would'nt this be nice if it worked? > > A tangle of missing information and unjustified conclusions. > [[[[Point taken! An 'error' concerning missing trivia; but much science concerns data previousely lost in 'trivia', like integrals involving the base of natural logarithms and where the solutions led, and the eventual solution of problems involving the radius of gryation of a solid objects bounded by ,say, discontinuous functions....like a rectangular cross section. However, focusing on trivia in a rhetorical sense often says more about the character of the critic than the original author who at least has the guts to present material for peer review, not to mention debating devices such as straw men which become obvious in the next paragraph. ]]]] > Rowan University in New Jersey got a Phase I project from a NASA brand to > investigate BLP reactioors for possible use as thrusters for deep space > probes where specific impulse overlong times is of the essence. The grant > was for $75,000 which was very effectively spent by the Rowan crew, > including getting used high vacuum hardware on eBay. By the tiem the money > ran out they had not been able to positively demonstrate high veolcity gas > from the reactor by spectroscopy because of the glare from the plasma > itself. A planned experiment to measure the thrust of the gas in a vacuum > chamber was not completed because of lack of funds. NASA declined to find a > Phase 2 program, and the project died. > [[[[Data above shows an interest in the project that led to discovery of many heretofore unknown details. The project ended in all likelyhood not because of its lack of merit but because of bean counters who lacked vision, a frequent occurance with government projects not in current fashion no matter what the merit. Conversely, the British once fully funded studies on a battleship made of ice, purely to mollify a fearful public during the depths of World War II. Many phase one studies did not get a second chance. The non-award of a phase II for this was shortly after the cancellation of the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics office and the phase down of NIAC. No new studies came after this 'Bush cut' a couple of years ago. Just ask Dr Mark Millis! Somebody will claim no proof of this kind of 'science driven by accountancy', just like anti-war columnists waffled when confronted by the mass murder in Cambodia. They said there was no proof as well, while knowing that no one would venture into Cambodia into the heart of darkness of the Angkha Leouw and be alive long enough to even get anywhere near to the proof. The hypocrisy was palpable! ]]]] > At the present level of applicaitons work at BLP only feeble thrust could > be expected, suitable for a deep space probe where thurst with a high > specific impulse operating over long periods can achieve very high > velocities. > > Mike Carrell [[[[Perhaps the high glare was indicative of high energy output per reactant mass. Energy output may have more forms than just imparting force to gaseous reaction products. The radiation is energy as well, and at lightspeed! Given the theoretical quantum nature of light as some solutions of the Schroedinger equations impart a particle like behavior now represented by 'photons', it becomes logical to ask how much mass could a photon have? Many references claim no mass for these, however they qualify the statement by claiming this to be true for the particle's rest mass, leaving unclear the mass when the photon is not at rest. Since traveling at the so called 'speed of light' is the photon's usual condition, and light has been proven to be influenced by static gravity (gravitational lensing effect), one can easily speculate a non-zero mass for the photon that is not at rest. Brian C. Doyle, on his web page: http://www.pa.uky.edu/~doyleb/current.html gives ideas of measuring the mass of photons by measuring their quantum chromodynamic products. Rodrick Lakes of the University of Wisconsin theorized an upper limit for the rest mass of the photon to be about 7 x (10 ^ [-17]) eV back in 1998 in a report on the following web page: http://newton.ex.ac.uk/aip/physnews.361.html There have been other studies since. The possibility of a rest mass for the photon has broad implications for physics, if it can be proven. At this point, the issue is open wide enough that even the most rabid pathoskeptik would not be able to convincingly close it for long. But we do not have to prove a rest mass. All we have to do is prove that light has pressure and that it can be influenced by gravity. Light can be influenced by magnetism as well. This was proven by Michael Faraday on 12 March 1862...see the following URL: http://nobelprize.org/physics/laureates/1902/zeeman-lecture.html Now an intense light source should be the most efficient thruster that we would plausibly want. Supposedly feeble now, like the early lasers. It is open to debate just how powerful they could be made. The statement was already made that measurements of particulate thrust were made ...difficult.... by the glare of the plasma. The pictures on Dr Marchese's site showed a violet glare. This means a high energy light source...higher the frequency, the higher the energy. Extend a little more and logically postulate that knowing the above, this energy, however small, emits a force, a momentum of non zero mass photons travelling at the limitations of whatever medium they are in. The Newtonian reactive force will be the thrust from the device. We made the lasers larger. Now a megawatt class laser mounted on a cargo plane will be able to shoot down an ICBM in the boost phase from a great distance. When first invented they were a horribly inefficient laboratory curiousity roundly derided by the pathoskeptics of the day. The ABL, as it is called, has its own web page: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/sitemap.html Understandably, Dr Randall Mills has his own program, part of which is to make money. He will! I might even invest some of my money there and put my money where obviousely my mouth is. He will love every pathoskeptic out there that was able to actively or passively discourage competition. I do not care for his website....to much PDF! But he is what he is, and will probably make more success of his hydrinos than some of us will care to admit is possible. The Black Light Power website can be found at: http://www.blacklightpower.com/ I am not a salesman for Dr Mills. In fact, I do not encourage others to invest, for if they do, the price of his stock, assuming he has any, may go up too soon. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:43:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43Fh8J8027339; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:43:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Fh5J1027294; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:43:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:43:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42779BE6.6010001 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:42:30 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF-11 papers are depressing References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > These ICCF-11 papers are depressing. There are only a few experimental > papers. Most are reviews of old work, or papers about theory. As far as > I can tell, most of the theory is of the crackpot variety, and usually > about subjects unrelated to CF, such as "POSSIBLE NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATION > OF NITROGEN IN THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE." > > This field is dying, and I cannot think of any way to save it. Quite the opposite, Jed. The field is moving forward on several fronts. The field has now changed in two important ways. People who have had some success are now exploring parameter space to improve the effect. This work is not being published because it has patent potential. In contrast, the effect is so hard to produce that most people have little to talk about, so they fill a meeting with "theory". The evidence has now reached a critical mass so people who do not have an ego to protect realize an important reality has been discovered. Consequently, money is stating to flow into the field. As successful work is replicated and as a few of the methods reach large energy production rates, even the skeptics will be silenced and politicians will risk supporting the field. The problem now is only psychological. This is the time when people having courage and an open mind start down the road to fame and riches. Ed > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:44:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43FhRJ8027557; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:43:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43FhF5H027423; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:43:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:43:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Example of borderline paper Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:50:52 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503105642.03cf4a50 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503105642.03cf4a50 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505031150.52568.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 03 May 2005 11:08, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Below is a good example of a paper that may or may not have anything to do > with CF. This one looks borderline to me. Perhaps it is more about > conventional nuclear physics than CF. > > The paper describes an exotic theory about magnetic monopolls causing the > Chernobyl explosion. I guess that makes it loosely related. Furthermore, > the authors might find it difficult to publish this at some other web site, > so I would include it. > > Whether the hypothesis is scientifically valid or not is another issue, > which in this case I am not qualified to judge. > > This sample also gives you an idea of the quality of the English in a > typical paper. It is not bad. A half-hour of editing should whip it into > shape. > > - Jed > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > On the possible magnetic mechanism of shortening the runaway of RBMK-1000 > reactor at Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant > D.V. Filippov, G. Lochak, A.A. Rukhadze, L.I. Urutskoev > > The official conclusion about the origin of the explosion at the Chernobyl > Nuclear Power Plant (CNPP) is shown to contradict significantly the > experimental facts available from the accident. The period of reactor > runaway in the accident is shown to be unexplainable in the framework of > the existing physical models of nuclear fission reactor. A hypothesis is > suggested for a possible magnetic mechanism which may be responsible for > the rise-up of the reactor reactivity coefficient at the fourth power > generating unit of CNPP in the course of testing the turbine generator via > running it under its own momentum. How rude! These guys are scientists who have been good enough to translate or have translated from Russian, which I do not know how to read much less speak, to English an abstract that otherwise would not have seen the light of day outside of Cyrillic reading countries. Russian grammar is different than ours in many ways, including the omission of common nonsense words that we call 'articles' like 'the' in many cases...or its 'inappropriate' use in other cases. I had a German friend who used to live in Vladivostok for a while back in the 'Soviet time'. Then the Russians did not translate their journals. Much was in them that would have been valuable to us. I wonder just how many times we had to 're-invent the wheel' because we did not have access at that time to English translations. I wonder how we would sound in Russian? Standing Bear We are not so good at spelling ourselves........e.g. monopoles! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:45:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43FixJ8029097; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:45:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43FisW5029059; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:44:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:44:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Heavy Metal Recall Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:52:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050503145440.EVZW1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050503145440.EVZW1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505031152.33786.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 03 May 2005 10:54, Terry Blanton wrote: > http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=634679 > > "A newly discovered fragment of the oldest surviving copy of the New > Testament indicates that, as far as the Antichrist goes, theologians, > scholars, heavy metal groups, and television evangelists have got the wrong > number. Instead of 666, it's actually the far less ominous 616." > > Hmmm, I wonder if they will change the Proctor&Gamble logo? :-) Guess they better stay out of Kalamazoo or not go to Battle Creek in Michigan where the area code is 616! grin Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:46:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43FjiJ8029695; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:45:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Fjgn4029667; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:45:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:45:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers have arrived Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:47:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503103343.03cf6eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jed, This kind of thing bothered me before the internet, but now it reads quite acceptably to me. I've come to appreciate russenglish for the novel sentence structuring and simplicity of style. That said, your insertion of the proper unit of current is a critical edit; those kinds of errors cause all sorts of problems down the road unless corrected. The kcal/kCal confusion we all had a few months ago is a perfect example of where good editorship in some old papers was lacking. What is your relation to the ICCF? Are you the official repository of papers, or are you providing the service as a favor to the organization? If the former, then you may be obligated to publish the whole of the proceedings, even papers which I agree should probably not be lumped in to CF. If the later, then it is your right to do as you may. BTW, if we agree CF is a real phenomena, then one is forced to review old alchemy reports for possible real effects. Most alchemy is bunk; but a few reports are very intriguing. Here's one thing that struck me from reading those sorts of papers. It was reported in one alchemical text that the water used in the experiment needed to be from the bottom of a deep, long standing well. We now know that that D2O will be found in higher concentrations in such water. Curious... K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 10:48 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF-11 papers have arrived Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In what sense do [the papers] need to be edited? In papers written by non-native speakers, the English needs work. There is a broad range of problems. Papers by German authors may need a few minor adjustments of the definite and indefinite articles ("the" and "a"). Papers written by Japanese authors have many mistakes but I know how to fix them. Papers written by Russians tend to be the most difficult for me. Here is an example. Before editing: "ANNOTATION The study of structure of elemental and isotopic composition of Ti cathode before and after an irradiation by ions glow discharge in plasma with an excess heat effect was fulfilled. The exposure was carried out by deuterium ions with a voltage of the discharge less than 1000 volt, with current of 10-20 ." After corrections and consulting with the author: "ABSTRACT In this study we report on the surface structure, distribution and isotopic composition of elements found on Ti cathodes before and after glow discharge in plasma, during which excess heat was produced. Irradiation was carried out with deuterium ions with a discharge voltage below 1000 volts, with a current of 10 to 20 mA." >the LENR-CANR collection, because people come to the site to learn about >cold fusion, not these other subjects. There may well be a link between CF transmutation and traditional alchemy. There may be, but for that matter there is probably a link between CF and special relativity (mass-energy equivalence), yet I do not have papers about relativity at LENR-CANR.org. In the broadest sense CF is probably related to many different fields. If you want to read about these other fields you go to textbooks or web sites about them. If a paper about traditional alchemy included a section with specific suggestions showing how it might be linked to CF, I would include it, even if I thought the link was bogus. A paper showing a relationship between relativity and CF would also be acceptable. I will grant the restriction is somewhat arbitrary, but if we have no restrictions we will end up with a huge pile of unrelated material, which will make it difficult for people to find what they are looking for. Furthermore, as I said, people who want to learn about alchemy on the Internet can do that very easily thanks to Google. We do not need to supply the links anymore. People make their own links. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:47:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43Fl0J8030483; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:47:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Fkwje030457; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:46:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:46:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003e01c54ff7$1b1cb5f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050503145440.EVZW1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: 616 Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:45:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01C54FBC.6D80CA10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C54FBC.6D80CA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terry, >Instead of 666, it's actually the far less ominous 616... This isn't exactly 'news,' but maybe it is a slow day in the UK. If you = have a copy of the New American Standard version of the NT, open it to = Rev. 13:18 - the footnote says that one ancient manuscript does in fact = give the number as 616. Most everything Biblical turns out to be fraught = with contradiction on closer inspection - no? Dan Brown sure found his lucrative "loophole"... FWIW. Did a little search in my collection of "special" numbers, and 616 = does turn up fairly often in magic squares, such as 4 x 4 =3D 16 squares = with Magic Sum =3D (154 x 4) =3D 616. The most "magical" of all such = squares may be a 13x13 square seen here http://www.worldofnumbers.com/yearmmii.htm which has four internal 4x4 squares with 616 lines, and 13 has long been = associated with bad luck. It's not hard to understand why 616 was not favored by numerologists, = given a choice with 666 in the ancient writings, but mathematically, = neither seem particularly remarkable: one is a product of small primes = [616 =3D 2=B72=B72=B77=B711] and the other is a triangular number [666 = =3D 1+2+3+...+36].=20 I mentioned once before that the triple W's of the World-Wide Web, with = W representing the sixth Hebrew letter, are totaled in this fashion, = they give 666, and we all know how evil the free exchange of ideas can = seem to certain bigots - they are the often ones who cherish arcane BS = like 666 anyway.=20 And, hey... what's the deal with carbon... with its 6 protons, 6 = neutrons, and 6 electrons - isn't it pretty bestial ?=20 All proving the point that almost anything arguably prophetic, no matter = how ridiculous, can be proven true in retrospect. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C54FBC.6D80CA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Terry,
 
>Instead of 666, it's actually the = far less=20 ominous 616...
 
This isn't exactly 'news,' but maybe it = is a slow=20 day in the UK. If you have a copy of the New American Standard version = of the=20 NT, open it to Rev. 13:18 - the footnote says that one ancient=20 manuscript does in fact give the number as 616. Most everything = Biblical=20 turns out to be fraught with contradiction on closer inspection -=20 no?
 
Dan Brown sure found his lucrative = "loophole"...
 
FWIW. Did a little search in my = collection of=20 "special" numbers, and 616 does turn up fairly often in magic squares, = such as 4=20 x 4 =3D 16 squares with Magic Sum =3D (154 x 4) =3D 616. The most = "magical" of=20 all such squares may be a 13x13 square seen here
http://www.worldofnum= bers.com/yearmmii.htm
which has four internal 4x4 squares = with 616 lines,=20 and 13 has long been associated with bad luck.
 
It's not hard to understand why 616 was = not favored=20 by numerologists, given a choice with 666 in the ancient = writings, but=20 mathematically, neither seem particularly remarkable: one is a product = of small=20 primes [616 =3D 2=B72=B72=B77=B711] and the other is a triangular number = [666 =3D=20 1+2+3+...+36].
 
I mentioned once before that the triple = W's of the=20 World-Wide Web, with W representing the sixth Hebrew letter, are totaled = in this=20 fashion, they give 666, and we all know how evil the free exchange = of ideas=20 can seem to certain bigots - they are the often ones who cherish arcane = BS like=20 666 anyway.
 
And, hey... what's the deal with = carbon...=20 with its 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons - isn't it pretty = bestial=20 ? 
 
All proving the point that almost = anything arguably=20 prophetic, no matter how ridiculous, can be proven true in=20 retrospect.
 
Jones
 
 

 
 
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C54FBC.6D80CA10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:52:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43Fq8J8000472; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:52:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Fq5xg000445; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:52:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:52:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503114112.03cf9040 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 11:51:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP implementation path In-Reply-To: <200505031135.04430.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <046d01c54129$8a6e34b0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <200505021214.32979.rockcast earthlink.net> <008801c54f78$c22399b0$2c79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <200505031135.04430.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >Conversely, the British once fully funded studies on a >battleship made of ice, purely to mollify a fearful public during the depths >of World War II. I believe that was an aircraft carrier made of ice mixed with sawdust and or ground-up newspaper. It was to be deployed in the far north Atlantic to cover the "air gap" where German U-boats could operate without being intercepted by long-range British aircraft. It would not be a highly mobile aircraft carrier in the usual sense, but rather a large man-made island that could be towed to any location and anchored. The craft would have had internal freezers to replenish the ice as it melted. Ice mixed with sawdust is incredibly tough material. It could easily withstand a German torpedo strike. It was actually a sensible proposal, but it was no longer needed after the US began launching small "jeep" aircraft carriers made from converted freighters that carried a couple dozen aircraft. (The British called them "Woolworth" carriers.) The proposal was not put forth to mollify the public. It was top secret. It was pursued because it appealed to Winston Churchill. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 08:56:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43Ft1J8002408; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:55:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43FsxGG002370; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:54:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:54:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=KN1/62P/E4lEmcCQjyNGz0xdtO07vZWrRfWBgxzFm9g4njS4Lhq6icRb5k7t5A+V; Message-ID: <410-22005523145441900 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: O.T. Nuclear Magnetic Moments & NMR Data Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:54:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406614a838f768ef661d9295b64470f784350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.240 Resent-Message-ID: <1Iv8t.A.-k.S75dCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While Jed is snowed by relativity-related (the essence of matter/energy) CF effects, And Jones Beene is raising hell :-).... notice the Nuclear magnetic moment and NMR similarities of these isotopes. Hydrogen & Deuterium: http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/H/isot.html Tritium: http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/H/isot.html Palladium: http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/isot.html Titanium: http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ti/isot.html Nickel: http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ni/isot.html Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

While Jed is snowed by relativity-related (the essence of matter/energy) CF effects, And Jones Beene
is raising hell  :-)....  notice the Nuclear magnetic moment and NMR similarities of these isotopes.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 09:04:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43G4QJ8007939; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:04:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43G4Mgw007911; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:04:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:04:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Re: 616 Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:04:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050503160414.HNSC1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > This isn't exactly 'news,' but maybe it is a slow day in the UK. Well, the actual news item was the use of multi-spectral imaging to read previously illegible papyri: http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2005/4/24/224546/127 > All proving the point that almost anything arguably prophetic, no matter how ridiculous, can be proven true in retrospect. I *did* find it interesting that the bad guy (according to Hebrew Gematria) went from Nero to Caligulia. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 09:08:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43G7nJ8009860; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:07:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43G7ZtW009764; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:07:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:07:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: Pykrete was RE: BLP implementation path Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:09:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503114112.03cf9040 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Google "Pykrete" and you'll find a wealth of information about this odd bit of history. http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7/floatingisland.php K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:52 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Standing Bear wrote: >Conversely, the British once fully funded studies on a >battleship made of ice, purely to mollify a fearful public during the depths >of World War II. I believe that was an aircraft carrier made of ice mixed with sawdust and or ground-up newspaper. It was to be deployed in the far north Atlantic to cover the "air gap" where German U-boats could operate without being intercepted by long-range British aircraft. It would not be a highly mobile aircraft carrier in the usual sense, but rather a large man-made island that could be towed to any location and anchored. The craft would have had internal freezers to replenish the ice as it melted. Ice mixed with sawdust is incredibly tough material. It could easily withstand a German torpedo strike. It was actually a sensible proposal, but it was no longer needed after the US began launching small "jeep" aircraft carriers made from converted freighters that carried a couple dozen aircraft. (The British called them "Woolworth" carriers.) The proposal was not put forth to mollify the public. It was top secret. It was pursued because it appealed to Winston Churchill. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 09:08:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43G7mJ8009858; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:07:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43G7X0m009726; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:07:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:07:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:09:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <410-2200552313720900 earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Fred, Can you get some of the magnets up to the curie point to demagnetize them? That would make a much better control than the ceramics. A propane torch might work on a small NdFeB, ceramics will break unless you use a furnace. K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:07 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing Michael Foster wrote: > > I wish everyone would give up on the electrolysis work. I think > it's just an interesting dead end. No way to scale it up > commercially. > Agreed. Too much energy invested into getting the effect. A bit soon to say anything for certain, but the 10 stacked (tissue paper spacer) Neodymium super magnets (10 mm OD x 5 mm ID)in 100 grams of distilled H2O (about ~ 10^19 deuterons/gram H2O) in well-insulated "cups" are showing a few degree C temperature rise over a 48 hour soak. At 1.0 milliwatts it should take 116 hours (4.8 days) to get 1.0 deg C temperature rise. A similar well-insulated cup with a ceramic magnet stack is showing lessor or null results. I've got about $10.00 US and plenty of free time invested in this thing so far. But, since the Neodymium super magnets are only good up to 8o deg C if it pans out I have an eye on using it for nuke waste remediation. Maybe. Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 09:29:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43GShJ8023456; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:28:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43GSea5023417; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:28:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:28:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503115412.03cfe140 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:28:19 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: English articles are not nonsense In-Reply-To: <200505031150.52568.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503105642.03cf4a50 pop.mindspring.com> <200505031150.52568.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >Russian grammar is different than >ours in many ways, including the omission of common nonsense words that we >call 'articles' like 'the' in many cases... Actually, English articles have a specific meaning: they indicate whether you are talking about one specific instance or general instances. It is a common misconception that English articles, number, and French word gender are "nonsense" or dispensable. They have no meaning, but they provide essential cross checking to reduce errors in communication. They function somewhat like parity bits. Take two French words which sound similar but are of different genders. The use of "le" or "la" earlier in the sentence acts as a clue or heads-up for the listener. If he has trouble hearing the sentence because he is in a noisy environment, he backtracks, replays the sentence in his mind, and checks whether there was a "le" or "la." You can always have a language without articles, number or gender. We get along fine without gender in English. Japanese has none of these things, yet Japanese people communicate perfectly. But of course they have other techniques to reinforce meaning, cross-check and reduce ambiguity. Incidentally, yesterday someone mentioned the distinction between green and blue. The most common Japanese color word, "ao," is both blue and green. So when you are driving with a Japanese person and he tells you the traffic light has turned blue, he means green. When Americans first learned Japanese, I expect some of them wondered whether Japanese people are colorblind. Not at all. They have dozens of other words for colors which describe fine gradations between various shades of blue and green. The most common pair after "ao" are: "sora-iro" and "midori" which mean "sky-color" (blue) and "leaf-color" (green). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 09:47:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43GlJJ8031297; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:47:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43GlIIq031266; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:47:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:47:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006d01c54fff$c1148750$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050503160414.HNSC1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [OT] 616 Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:47:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <7jBjtB.A.eoH.Vs6dCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" > I *did* find it interesting that the bad guy (according to > Hebrew Gematria) went from Nero to Caligulia. Yes. But that is most of the problem with "616" being the substitue for 666, or so it would seem. Nero makes more sense, historically. Caligula reigned only 3 years and never really had a chance to persecute Christians as there were none ! at least not in Rome and going by that name yet - and he probably never would have even heard of the few dozen or hundred in Turkey (Asia minor) - while Nero was notorious for same, but that was probably exaggerated, as the timing was not right for him either. Mostly both of them killed everyone they didn't like, no matter why. Gaius "Caligula" died in the year 41, at an early age, and though all agree that he possessed excess decadence, madness, cruelty, extravagance and megalomania beyond reason - the timing is not good for him to be the subject of this warning. BTW here are some tidbits from the web- Caligula was prematurely bald and so sensitive about his lack of hair that it was a **capital crime** for anyone to look down from a high place as he passed by. Sometimes he ordered those with a fine head of hair to be shaved. Several became appetizers for lions, who probably didn't care for the long hair either. >From the Emperor Augustus he inherited the family affliction for epilepsy and madness. He was caught in bed with his sister Drusilla at an early age. His famous father Germanicus, his mother Agrippina and all his brothers were either killed or starved to death by the Emperor Tiberius, who Caligula eventually helped to kill and take over rule. Nero was Caligula's nephew andwas also a chip off the old murderous block - and by then there were enough Christians around for him to indulge in offing his share, but probaly far less than the later Emperors. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 09:54:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43GrvJ8002278; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:53:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Grs9g002252; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:53:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:53:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VPm/8NW05ZtiGWcsvlvy4jetHDwZLpiiLX2jb/ymw90/JgCwgUhAbtfDRhYZBia/wYSArYrV68JorWbTxIFac8v9CgL7QV74IkSWTV+HhjLcr4c2z+CtpL+pZAcG43qBFu3BJtcKZZu/EGWxFIyE6wu+zuHjnlSvP4kgC1fEPPs= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:53:47 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: English articles are not nonsense In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503115412.03cfe140 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503105642.03cf4a50 pop.mindspring.com> <200505031150.52568.rockcast earthlink.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050503115412.03cfe140 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j43GrpJ8002216 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: an english teacher is teaching his class about positive and negative words. "In english, as you know, a double negative is a positive, whereas in some languages, such as russian, a double negative is simply more negative. however, there is no known language where a double positive can be a negative." from the back of the room, comes wafting up a pair of words from the class clown. "yeah right". On 5/3/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Standing Bear wrote: > > >Russian grammar is different than > >ours in many ways, including the omission of common nonsense words that we > >call 'articles' like 'the' in many cases... > > Actually, English articles have a specific meaning: they indicate whether > you are talking about one specific instance or general instances. It is a > common misconception that English articles, number, and French word gender > are "nonsense" or dispensable. They have no meaning, but they provide > essential cross checking to reduce errors in communication. They function > somewhat like parity bits. Take two French words which sound similar but > are of different genders. The use of "le" or "la" earlier in the sentence > acts as a clue or heads-up for the listener. If he has trouble hearing the > sentence because he is in a noisy environment, he backtracks, replays the > sentence in his mind, and checks whether there was a "le" or "la." > > You can always have a language without articles, number or gender. We get > along fine without gender in English. Japanese has none of these things, > yet Japanese people communicate perfectly. But of course they have other > techniques to reinforce meaning, cross-check and reduce ambiguity. > > Incidentally, yesterday someone mentioned the distinction between green and > blue. The most common Japanese color word, "ao," is both blue and green. So > when you are driving with a Japanese person and he tells you the traffic > light has turned blue, he means green. When Americans first learned > Japanese, I expect some of them wondered whether Japanese people are > colorblind. Not at all. They have dozens of other words for colors which > describe fine gradations between various shades of blue and green. The most > common pair after "ao" are: "sora-iro" and "midori" which mean "sky-color" > (blue) and "leaf-color" (green). > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 09:57:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43GvmJ8004368; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:57:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Gvj7l004347; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:57:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:57:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YqP0U458/SZREktSDLkTCIm4iEb0l0y4Sg0uvtcSneBVWs3DNBkQK9ixa2Zq1bd0iBUqYJG1f8OTKzjzyfacx0CfE669XvoP3mGlDPnxguzGgjeImwaRthWg4W4Yj1tsk0+YFlVus9O/B5vXbNzSSbRyI5NatuoDKzwF1nq1SwM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:57:38 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Re: 616 In-Reply-To: <20050503160414.HNSC1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050503160414.HNSC1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j43GvhJ8004279 Resent-Message-ID: <7qNGiC.A.zDB.J26dCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: well, its the letter vav, which looks like an upside down stunted l. its both a letter and a number, and reading it, it said it looked like that on the forehead. not that that was what it actually was. you could make a lot of symbols out of three L shapes, especially in a nice spiral pattern. im looking for the picture, but there was a shot of a bush rally, some parents had painted a big blue w on thier kids forehead. On 5/3/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > From: "Jones Beene" > > > This isn't exactly 'news,' but maybe it is a slow day in the UK. > > Well, the actual news item was the use of multi-spectral imaging to read previously illegible papyri: > > http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2005/4/24/224546/127 > > > > > All proving the point that almost anything arguably prophetic, no matter how ridiculous, can be proven true in retrospect. > > I *did* find it interesting that the bad guy (according to Hebrew Gematria) went from Nero to Caligulia. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 09:59:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43GxaJ8005398; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:59:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43GxWsk005352; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:59:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:59:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=jpkL8nh+Mi/dBZCR5HfaREIlvBJ7yCIKzuJvzvlhbyX31C6ak39NRRiqajoBatF9; Message-ID: <410-22005523155855580 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O, Was RE: ICCF-11 papers.... Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:58:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400c0c7f800ffef96f6240acadbb779cf8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.152 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keith, Boiling hot water should do it, but I'm not going to try it until I get some more precise measurements with some digital thermometers due in today or tomorrow. BTW, the Neodymium magnets are Nickel-Plated which makes for thinking of it as a Condensed Plasma Interface with magnetic alignment of the protons/deuterons in the H2O-HDO-D2O, possibly as well as the stable Nickel 61 isotope. It would take over 200 Atmospheres of Metal-D2 gas pressure to come close to it. I think the gas discharge-metal surface research is knocking at this door, as is/was CF Cell Electrolysis D2 loading of Pd. Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Keith Nagel > To: Vortex > Date: 5/3/05 11:08:07 AM > Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing > > Hey Fred, > > Can you get some of the magnets up to the curie point to > demagnetize them? That would make a much better control > than the ceramics. A propane torch might work on a small > NdFeB, ceramics will break unless you use a furnace. > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:07 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing > > > Michael Foster wrote: > > > > > I wish everyone would give up on the electrolysis work. I think > > it's just an interesting dead end. No way to scale it up > > commercially. > > > Agreed. Too much energy invested into getting the effect. > > A bit soon to say anything for certain, but the 10 stacked (tissue paper spacer) > Neodymium super magnets (10 mm OD x 5 mm ID)in 100 grams of distilled H2O (about ~ 10^19 deuterons/gram H2O) in > well-insulated "cups" are showing a few degree C temperature rise > over a 48 hour soak. At 1.0 milliwatts it should take 116 hours (4.8 days) > to get 1.0 deg C temperature rise. > A similar well-insulated cup with a ceramic magnet stack is showing lessor or null results. > > I've got about $10.00 US and plenty of free time invested in this thing so far. But, since the > Neodymium super magnets are only good up to 8o deg C if it pans out I have an eye on > using it for nuke waste remediation. Maybe. > > Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 10:05:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43H5OJ8009625; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:05:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43H5LKA009593; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:05:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:05:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c55002$439fa5e0$36027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Report from Max Planck work Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:05:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C54FD8.59E446F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C54FD8.59E446F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C54FD8.59E446F0" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C54FD8.59E446F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWork continues http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2005/4/29/7401/23280 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C54FD8.59E446F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Work continues

http://www.sc= iscoop.com/story/2005/4/29/7401/23280

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C54FD8.59E446F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C54FD8.59E446F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c55002$429ed7b0$36027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C54FD8.59E446F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 10:16:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43HG5J8017389; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:16:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43HG0af017325; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:16:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Wither Werjefelt? Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:15:49 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF4FE CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Wither Werjefelt? Thread-Index: AcVQA8d14iwNTQGlR++pNLq20JMEcw== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 May 2005 17:15:55.0804 (UTC) FILETIME=[C44705C0:01C55003] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j43HFqJ8017215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Does anyone have any updated information about Bertil Werjefelt and his "magnetic battery"? His simple device seemed to offer some promise of free energy - back in the mid-90's - but after that I've found nothing. I'd like to reproduce this gadget if I can get some solid idea that it really works. Thanks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 10:27:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43HQjJ8024218; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:26:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43HQiuw024197; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:26:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:26:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c55005$4305a870$36027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503105642.03cf4a50 pop.mindspring.com> <200505031150.52568.rockcast@earthlink.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050503115412.03cfe140@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: English articles are not nonsense Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:25:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, So much language is lost in translation yet the English language has become the language of the world of business, air travel and encroaching into science as a universal medium for the exchange of ideas via the internet. Picking up on your " color" comment, in Rev.21:19 , the writer observed the foundation of the walls were made of 12 different colors of stones ( jewels). Half of these colors have never been identified. Hmmm. If there are 3 primary colors why mention four times that ? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:28 AM Subject: English articles are not nonsense > Standing Bear wrote: > >>Russian grammar is different than >>ours in many ways, including the omission of common nonsense words that we >>call 'articles' like 'the' in many cases... > > Actually, English articles have a specific meaning: they indicate whether > you are talking about one specific instance or general instances. It is a > common misconception that English articles, number, and French word gender > are "nonsense" or dispensable. They have no meaning, but they provide > essential cross checking to reduce errors in communication. They function > somewhat like parity bits. Take two French words which sound similar but > are of different genders. The use of "le" or "la" earlier in the sentence > acts as a clue or heads-up for the listener. If he has trouble hearing the > sentence because he is in a noisy environment, he backtracks, replays the > sentence in his mind, and checks whether there was a "le" or "la." > > You can always have a language without articles, number or gender. We get > along fine without gender in English. Japanese has none of these things, > yet Japanese people communicate perfectly. But of course they have other > techniques to reinforce meaning, cross-check and reduce ambiguity. > > Incidentally, yesterday someone mentioned the distinction between green > and blue. The most common Japanese color word, "ao," is both blue and > green. So when you are driving with a Japanese person and he tells you the > traffic light has turned blue, he means green. When Americans first > learned Japanese, I expect some of them wondered whether Japanese people > are colorblind. Not at all. They have dozens of other words for colors > which describe fine gradations between various shades of blue and green. > The most common pair after "ao" are: "sora-iro" and "midori" which mean > "sky-color" (blue) and "leaf-color" (green). > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 10:34:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43HYWJ8028882; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:34:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43HYRVM028838; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:34:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:34:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Wither Werjefelt? Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:36:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF4FE CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <_exw9.A.iCH.iY7dCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Boy, that's a blast from the past. Gene Mallove would have known, but the last I heard of Bert he was running a company in Hawaii selling aircraft safety equipment. Try emailing him here polytech worldnet.att.net but this address may not work anymore. Say, if Rick M. is still lurking, he may know. K. -----Original Message----- From: Zell, Chris [mailto:ChrisZell clearchannel.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:16 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Wither Werjefelt? Does anyone have any updated information about Bertil Werjefelt and his "magnetic battery"? His simple device seemed to offer some promise of free energy - back in the mid-90's - but after that I've found nothing. I'd like to reproduce this gadget if I can get some solid idea that it really works. Thanks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 10:42:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43HfuJ8032325; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:41:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Hfqgu032289; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:41:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:41:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 13:42:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O, Was RE: ICCF-11 papers.... In-reply-to: <410-22005523155855580 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If this warming is the result of some sort of fusion, you should place the cup in a shield to protect against possible neutron emissions. Harry Frederick Sparber at fjsparber earthlink.net wrote: > Hi Keith, > > Boiling hot water should do it, but I'm not going to try it until I get some > more precise measurements with some digital thermometers due in > today or tomorrow. > BTW, the Neodymium magnets are Nickel-Plated which makes for thinking > of it as a Condensed Plasma Interface with magnetic alignment of the > protons/deuterons in the > H2O-HDO-D2O, possibly as well as the stable Nickel 61 isotope. It would > take over 200 Atmospheres of > Metal-D2 gas pressure to come close to it. > > I think the gas discharge-metal surface research is knocking at this door, > as is/was > CF Cell Electrolysis D2 loading of Pd. > > Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 10:57:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43HvNJ8006438; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:57:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43HvKsT006414; Tue, 3 May 2005 10:57:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:57:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wither Werjefelt? Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:57:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050503175711.FLUB2470.imf19aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Zell, Chris" > Does anyone have any updated information about Bertil > Werjefelt and his "magnetic battery"? If I am not mistaken, Mark Goldes tested Bert's magnetic battery-generator. Mark? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 11:16:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43IFjJ8014836; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:15:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43IFgoX014809; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:15:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:15:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=C4Cs3XORrIdjEUDNlVtb8rX6iUWePllJhlukkl3pEE/I89QehRxVekEOtEu7KSIn; Message-ID: <410-22005523171523790 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O, Was RE: ICCF-11 papers.... Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:15:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a9798f8f1e0bc985f6a73391277b9799350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.143 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith wrote: > > A related thought: A while back I had it in my head that the surface morphology > could be modified by plating on a PM, I was disappointed to > find that Ni plating on a charged magnet seemed to have > no noticeable effect. Isn't that surprising? > Yes. :-) I thought Indigo was using electroless Ni, or were they Ni plating before magnetizing? Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Keith Nagel > To: Vortex > Date: 5/3/05 12:23:59 PM > Subject: RE: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O, Was RE: ICCF-11 papers.... > > Hi Fred, > > Boiling water won't quite cut it; >300C needed. You might try the oven in a pinch, > it might just do it. This is a neat experiment for a variety > of reasons, what are you using for calorimeters? > > A related thought: A while back I had it in my head that the surface morphology > could be modified by plating on a PM, I was disappointed to > find that Ni plating on a charged magnet seemed to have > no noticable effect. Isn't that surprising? > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:59 AM > To: vortex-l > Subject: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O, Was RE: ICCF-11 > papers.... > > > Hi Keith, > > Boiling hot water should do it, but I'm not going to try it until I get some > more precise measurements with some digital thermometers due in > today or tomorrow. > BTW, the Neodymium magnets are Nickel-Plated which makes for thinking > of it as a Condensed Plasma Interface with magnetic alignment of the > protons/deuterons in the > H2O-HDO-D2O, possibly as well as the stable Nickel 61 isotope. It would > take over 200 Atmospheres of > Metal-D2 gas pressure to come close to it. > > I think the gas discharge-metal surface research is knocking at this door, > as is/was > CF Cell Electrolysis D2 loading of Pd. > > Frederick > > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Keith Nagel > > To: Vortex > > Date: 5/3/05 11:08:07 AM > > Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing > > > > Hey Fred, > > > > Can you get some of the magnets up to the curie point to > > demagnetize them? That would make a much better control > > than the ceramics. A propane torch might work on a small > > NdFeB, ceramics will break unless you use a furnace. > > > > K. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:07 AM > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing > > > > > > Michael Foster wrote: > > > > > > > > I wish everyone would give up on the electrolysis work. I think > > > it's just an interesting dead end. No way to scale it up > > > commercially. > > > > > Agreed. Too much energy invested into getting the effect. > > > > A bit soon to say anything for certain, but the 10 stacked (tissue paper > spacer) > > Neodymium super magnets (10 mm OD x 5 mm ID)in 100 grams of distilled H2O > (about ~ 10^19 deuterons/gram H2O) in > > well-insulated "cups" are showing a few degree C temperature rise > > over a 48 hour soak. At 1.0 milliwatts it should take 116 hours (4.8 days) > > to get 1.0 deg C temperature rise. > > A similar well-insulated cup with a ceramic magnet stack is showing > lessor or null results. > > > > I've got about $10.00 US and plenty of free time invested in this thing > so far. But, since the > > Neodymium super magnets are only good up to 8o deg C if it pans out I > have an eye on > > using it for nuke waste remediation. Maybe. > > > > Frederick > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 11:19:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43IIbJ8016152; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:18:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43IIZJY016136; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:18:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:18:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=k6znmEXp3unwzQE/x1FqVYb6/k0G8BiTs74KwumwOJmJUpho6ZQqwlI2v83wq0Kv; Message-ID: <410-22005523171818780 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O,Was RE: ICCF-11 papers.... Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:18:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401303b4a0f1d6e571b2b474109fda61df350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.143 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: Harry Veeder > To: > Date: 5/3/05 12:41:56 PM > Subject: Re: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O,Was RE: ICCF-11 papers.... > > > If this warming is the result of some sort of fusion, you should place the > cup in a shield to protect against possible neutron emissions. > > Harry > Good idea, Harry. I'll use some distance as a shield. Frederick > Frederick Sparber at fjsparber earthlink.net wrote: > > > Hi Keith, > > > > Boiling hot water should do it, but I'm not going to try it until I get some > > more precise measurements with some digital thermometers due in > > today or tomorrow. > > BTW, the Neodymium magnets are Nickel-Plated which makes for thinking > > of it as a Condensed Plasma Interface with magnetic alignment of the > > protons/deuterons in the > > H2O-HDO-D2O, possibly as well as the stable Nickel 61 isotope. It would > > take over 200 Atmospheres of > > Metal-D2 gas pressure to come close to it. > > > > I think the gas discharge-metal surface research is knocking at this door, > > as is/was > > CF Cell Electrolysis D2 loading of Pd. > > > > Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 11:37:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43IapJ8024884; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:36:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Ianux024865; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:36:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:36:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=KYFcnSItc+dRMgDzGCP9rG46woJ94ZxzeMP+kSXLsd7jRUjF94JOnwnVx9IbHX33NMU8lVniQkE3mH924p7dawYwtp2l5UUAJ68KBUG1gVgYHU9YoOc8Lc77b7JpRU/vWG4GzjDdDn1iIhWv3ekNdN+lvwVWLYQ0ZgZrunQqhC4= ; Message-ID: <20050503183642.22169.qmail web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:36:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Spiral helixes To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > Harvey, > > > Heres how that paradox works... [snip] > > This is very interesting and, over the years, you > have said > similar things in prior posts that lead one to > believe that in > 3-phase - "symmetry in preserved" - at least there > is that > tendency (which can somehow get back to ZPE). > Furthermore, it > seems that you have been trying to exploit this > "natural" tendency > in your experiments by presenting an interaction > situation where > one "leg" of 3-phase is "energy deficient." > > Is that a fair appraisal? Yes, in certain respects... I didnt realize some aspects without later looking at the total picture. A good example is when I first started working with what I called the maximum energy transfer resonances. If we take just one phase of three from the alternator and apply the situation, we find that it does defy the way the laws are written. But here we are only working with a single phase and treating it by making obervations on that phase. Since we arent doing anything with the other phases, they are open circuit, at first we think that it should be irrevalent as to what occurs on those open circuits. Later on I found that the reason I was getting results that defy the maximum energy transfer laws, was that the phase in use was actually "borrowing" voltage from the adjacent phases, and a voltage monitoring of those empty phases shows that fact. Once we do the same thing for all three phases, the laws begin to comply, but still not completely. We cannot simply take one phase out of three and look what happens on that phase, without also analysing the total actions of the three phase WYE internally connected generator. In the large coil groupings that show an excess of phase angle freedom, the phase that isnt magnetically connected or coupled to the same degree as the other phases, also shows a great degree of inbalance, less current goes through that phase even though all three loads are ~ equal. Thus in a sense it is like you propose, it is energy deficient. In fact it is very common for one phase to have less voltage then another phase. I will have to stop speculating and just arrange all three coil goroups identically in mutual induction, and then see what happens. I began tearing evrything apart to accomplish this, but other work came up... Speaking of work, I have to go there before I am late,,,, just wanted to make a quick reply here. After the reconstruction is made, more authouritative comments on theis of "what if" scenario can be made. Sincerely HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 11:41:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43IepJ8026790; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:40:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43IelNc026762; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:40:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:40:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503143712.03cf2060 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 14:40:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ICCF-11 titles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17156828==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17156828==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are all of the ICCF-11 titles that I am aware of, from my EndNote=20 database. 1. Abyaneh, M., et al. Concerning the Modeling of Systems in= =20 Terms of Quantum Electrodynamics (QED): The Special Case of "Cold Fusion".= =20 in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 2. Adamenko, S. and V. Vysotskii. The Conditions And=20 Realization Of Self-Similar Coulomb Collapse Of Condensed Target And=20 Low-Energy Laboratory Nucleosynthesis. in Eleventh International Conference= =20 on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 3. Bazhutov, Y. and E. Pletnikov. Search For Erzion Nuclear= =20 Catalysis Chains From Cosmic Ray Erzions Stopping In Organic Scintillator.= =20 in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 4. Bazhutov, Y., et al. Calorimetric And Neutron Diagnostics= =20 Of Liquids During Laser Irradiation. in Eleventh International Conference=20 on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 5. Benson, T. and T.O. Passell. Calorimetry of Energy-Efficient= =20 Glow Discharge - Apparatus Design and Calibration. in Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004.=20 Marseille, France. 6. Brown, J. Towards a robust theory of nuclear interactions in= =20 deuteron bands. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 7. Campari, E.G., et al. Photon and particle emission, heat=20 production and surface transformation in Ni-H system. in Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004.=20 Marseille, France. 8. Campari, E.G., et al. Surface Analysis of hydrogen loaded=20 nickel alloys. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 9. Chubb, T. I. Bloch Ions. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 10. Chubb, T. II. Inhibited Diffusion Driven Surface=20 Transmutations. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 11. Chubb, T. III. Bloch Nuclides, Iwamura Transmutations, and=20 Oriani Showers. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 12. Chubb, S.R. Framework for Understanding LENR Processes, Using= =20 Conventional Condensed Matter Physics. in Eleventh International Conference= =20 on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 13. Cirillo, D. and V. Iorio. Transmutation of metal at low=20 energy in a confined plasma in water. in Eleventh International Conference= =20 on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 14. Czerski, K., P. Heide, and A. Huke. Electron Screening=20 Constraints for Cold Fusion. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 15. Dash, J. and A. Ambadkar. Co-Deposition Of Palladium With=20 Hydrogen Isotopes. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter= =20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 16. Filimonov, V.A. Neutrino-Driven Nuclear Reactions Of=20 Cold Fusion And Transmutation. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 17. Filippov, D., A. Rukhadze, and L.I. Urutshoev. Effects of=20 atomic electrons on nuclear stability and radioactive decay. in Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004.=20 Marseille, France. 18. Filippov, D., et al. On the possible magnetic mechanism of=20 shortening the runaway of RBMK-1000 reactor at Chernobyl Nuclear Power=20 Plant. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear=20 Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 19. Frisone, F. Theoretical Model Of The Probability Of Fusion=20 Between Deuterons Within Deformed Lattices With Micro-Cracks At Room=20 Temperature. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 20. Fukuhara, M. Possible Nuclear Transmutation Of Nitrogen= =20 In The Earth's Atmosphere. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 21. Gareev, F., I. Zhidkova, and Y. Ratis. Enhancement Mechanisms= =20 of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 22. Hora, H., et al. Low Energy Nuclear Reactions resulting as=20 picometer interactions with similarity to K-shell electron capture. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 23. Huke, A., et al. Evidence for a Target-Material Dependence of= =20 the Neutron-Proton Branching Ratio in d+d Reactions for Deuteron Energies=20 below 20 keV. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 24. Huke, A., K. Czerski, and P. Heide. Accelerator Experiments=20 and Theoretical Models for the Electron Screening Effect in Metallic=20 Environments. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 25. Iwamura, Y. Observation of Nuclear Transmutation Reactions=20 induced by D2 Gas Permeation through Pd Complexes - PowerPoint=20 presentation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 26. Josephson, B. Good and Bad Ways to do Science -=20 PowerPoint presentation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed= =20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 27. Karabut, A. Excess Heat Power Production In Pd/D For Pulse=20 Periodic Discharge Current Of Various Conditions. in Eleventh International= =20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 28. Karabut, A. Research Into Characteristics Of X-Ray Emission=20 Laser Beams From Solid-State Cathode Medium Of High-Current Glow Discharge.= =20 in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 29. Kim, Y. and T.O. Passell. Alternative Interpretation of=20 Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction Processes with Deuterated Metals Based on The=20 Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism. in Eleventh International Conference= =20 on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 30. Kim, Y. and A. Zubarev. Mixtures of Charged Bosons Confined=20 in Harmonic Traps and Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism for Low Energy=20 Nuclear Reactions and Transmutation Processes in Condensed Matter. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 31. Kim, Y., et al. Proposal for New Experimental Tests of the=20 Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism for Low Energy Nuclear Reaction and=20 Transmutation Processes in Deuterium Loaded Micro- and Nano-Scale Cavities.= =20 in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 32. Kowalski, L. History of attempts to publish a paper. in= =20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 33. Kowalski, L., et al. Charged particles from Ti and Pd=20 foils. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear=20 Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 34. Kowalski, L. Recent cold fusion claims: are they valid?= =20 in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 35. Kozima, H. Cold Fusion Phenomenon and Solid State Nuclear=20 Physics. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear=20 Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 36. Lewis, E. Evidence of Microscopic Ball Lightning in Cold=20 Fusion Experiments. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 37. Lewis, E. Cold Fusion in the Context of a Scientific=20 Revolution in Physics: History and Economic Ramifications. in Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004.=20 Marseille, France. 38. Li, X., et al. Multiple Scattering Theory (MST) and Condensed= =20 Matter Nuclear Science -- "Super-Absorption" in a Crystal Lattice --. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 39. Lochak, G. and L. Urutskoev. Low-energy nuclear reactions and= =20 the leptonic monopole. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 40. Minari, T., et al. Experiments on Condensed Matter Nuclear=20 Events in Kobe University. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 41. Mizuno, T., et al. Neutron emission from D2 gas in magnetic=20 fields under low temperature. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 42. Mizuno, T., et al. Generation of Heat and Products During=20 Plasma Electrolysis. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 43. Moon, D. The Nucleovoltaic Cell. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 44. Oriani, R.A. and J.C. Fisher. Energetic particle shower in=20 the vapor from electrolysis. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 45. Oriani, R.A. and J.C. Fisher. Nuclear reactions produced in=20 an operating electrolysis cell. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 46. P=E9rez-Pariente, J. Evidence For The Ocurrence Of Lenr-Type= =20 Processes In Alchemical Transmutations. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 47. Pryakhin, E., et al. Assessment Of The Biological=20 Effects Of "Strange" Radiation. in Eleventh International Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 48. Rambaut, M. Electrons clusters and magnetic monopoles.=20 in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 49. Rothwell, J. Introducing The Book "Cold Fusion and the=20 Future". in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear=20 Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 50. Roussetski, A.S. Cr-39 Track Detectors In Cold Fusion=20 Experiments: Review And Perspectives. in Eleventh International Conference= =20 on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 51. Savvatimova, I. and D. Gavritenkov. Results Of Analysis= =20 Of Ti Foil After Glow Discharge With Deuterium. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 52. Spallone, A., et al. An Overview Of Experimental Studies= =20 On H/Pd Over-Loading With Thin Pd Wires And Different Electrolytic=20 Solutions. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear= =20 Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 53. Stoljarov, P., L. Urutskoev, and H. Lehn. Interaction Of= =20 Magnetic Monopoles On Polar Molecules. in Eleventh International Conference= =20 on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 54. Storms, E. An Update of LENR for ICCF-11. in Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004.=20 Marseille, France. 55. Stringham, R. Low Mass 1.6 MHz Sonofusion Reactor. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science.=20 2004. Marseille, France. 56. Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and F. Gordon. Precursors And=20 The Fusion Reactions In Polarised Pd/D-D2O System: Effect Of An External=20 Electric Field. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 57. Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and F. Gordon. Precursors And=20 The Fusion Reactions In Polarised Pd/D-D2O System: Effect Of An External=20 Electric Field - PowerPoint presentation. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 58. Takahashi, A. 3He/4He Production Ratios By Tetrahedral=20 Symmetric Condensation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 59. Tian, J., et al. "Excess Heat" during Electrolysis in=20 Platinium/K2CO3/Nickel Light Water System. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 60. Toimela, T. Effective Interaction Potential in the Deuterium= =20 Plasma and Multiple Resonance Scattering. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 61. Triassi, A. Variation Of The Concentration Of Isotopes Copper= =20 And Zinc In Human Plasmas Of Patients Affected By Cancer. in Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004.=20 Marseille, France. 62. Tsuchida, K. and H. Okumura. Theoretical Study of=20 Nuclear Reactions Induced by Bose-Einstein Condensation in Pd. in Eleventh= =20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004.=20 Marseille, France. 63. Vysotskii, V., et al. Experiments On Controlled=20 Decontamination Of Water Mixture Of Long-Lived Active Isotopes In=20 Biological Cells. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter= =20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 64. Vysotskii, V. and A.A. Kornilova. The Spatial Structure= =20 Of Water And The Problem Of Controlled Low Energy Nuclear Reactions In=20 Water Matrix. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 65. Wallace, K. and R. Stringham. A Tribute To Gene Mallove - The= =20 "Genie" Reactor. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 66. Wei, Q., et al. Deuterium (Hydrogen) Flux Permeating through= =20 Palladium and Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. --=====================_17156828==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are all of the ICCF-11 titles that I am aware of, from my EndNote database.

1.            &n= bsp;   Abyaneh, M., et al. Concerning the Modeling of Systems in Terms of Quantum Electrodynamics (QED): The Special Case of "Cold Fusion". in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
2.            &n= bsp;   Adamenko, S. and V. Vysotskii. The Conditions And Realization Of Self-Similar Coulomb Collapse Of Condensed Target And Low-Energy Laboratory Nucleosynthesis. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
3.            &n= bsp;   Bazhutov, Y. and E. Pletnikov. Search For Erzion Nuclear Catalysis Chains From Cosmic Ray Erzions Stopping In Organic Scintillator. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
4.            &n= bsp;   Bazhutov, Y., et al. Calorimetric And Neutron Diagnostics Of Liquids During Laser Irradiation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
5.             Benson, T. and T.O. Passell. Calorimetry of Energy-Efficient Glow Discharge - Apparatus Design and Calibration. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
6.             Brown, J. Towards a robust theory of nuclear interactions in deuteron bands. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
7.             Campari, E.G., et al. Photon and particle emission, heat production and surface transformation in Ni-H system. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
8.             Campari, E.G., et al. Surface Analysis of hydrogen loaded nickel alloys. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
9.             Chubb, T. I. Bloch Ions. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
10.           Chubb, T. II. Inhibited Diffusion Driven Surface Transmutations. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
11.           Chubb, T. III. Bloch Nuclides, Iwamura Transmutations, and Oriani Showers. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
12.           Chubb, S.R. Framework for Understanding LENR Processes, Using Conventional Condensed Matter Physics. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
13.           Cirillo, D. and V. Iorio. Transmutation of metal at low energy in a confined plasma in water. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
14.           Czerski, K., P. Heide, and A. Huke. Electron Screening Constraints for Cold Fusion. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
15.           Dash, J. and A. Ambadkar. Co-Deposition Of Palladium With Hydrogen Isotopes. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
16.            &= nbsp;   Filimonov, V.A. Neutrino-Driven Nuclear Reactions Of Cold Fusion And Transmutation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
17.           Filippov, D., A. Rukhadze, and L.I. Urutshoev. Effects of atomic electrons on nuclear stability and radioactive decay. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
18.           Filippov, D., et al. On the possible magnetic mechanism of shortening the runaway of RBMK-1000 reactor at Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
19.           Frisone, F. Theoretical Model Of The Probability Of Fusion Between Deuterons Within Deformed Lattices With Micro-Cracks At Room Temperature. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
20.            &= nbsp;   Fukuhara, M. Possible Nuclear Transmutation Of Nitrogen In The Earth's Atmosphere. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
21.           Gareev, F., I. Zhidkova, and Y. Ratis. Enhancement Mechanisms of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
22.           Hora, H., et al. Low Energy Nuclear Reactions resulting as picometer interactions with similarity to K-shell electron capture. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
23.           Huke, A., et al. Evidence for a Target-Material Dependence of the Neutron-Proton Branching Ratio in d+d Reactions for Deuteron Energies below 20 keV. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
24.           Huke, A., K. Czerski, and P. Heide. Accelerator Experiments and Theoretical Models for the Electron Screening Effect in Metallic Environments. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
25.           Iwamura, Y. Observation of Nuclear Transmutation Reactions induced by D2 Gas Permeation through Pd Complexes - PowerPoint presentation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
26.            &= nbsp;   Josephson, B. Good and Bad Ways to do Science - PowerPoint presentation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
27.           Karabut, A. Excess Heat Power Production In Pd/D For Pulse Periodic Discharge Current Of Various Conditions. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
28.           Karabut, A. Research Into Characteristics Of X-Ray Emission Laser Beams From Solid-State Cathode Medium Of High-Current Glow Discharge. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
29.           Kim, Y. and T.O. Passell. Alternative Interpretation of Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction Processes with Deuterated Metals Based on The Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
30.           Kim, Y. and A. Zubarev. Mixtures of Charged Bosons Confined in Harmonic Traps and Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism for Low Energy Nuclear Reactions and Transmutation Processes in Condensed Matter. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
31.           Kim, Y., et al. Proposal for New Experimental Tests of the Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism for Low Energy Nuclear Reaction and Transmutation Processes in Deuterium Loaded Micro- and Nano-Scale Cavities. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
32.            &= nbsp;   Kowalski, L. History of attempts to publish a paper. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
33.            &= nbsp;   Kowalski, L., et al. Charged particles from Ti and Pd foils. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
34.            &= nbsp;   Kowalski, L. Recent cold fusion claims: are they valid? in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
35.           Kozima, H. Cold Fusion Phenomenon and Solid State Nuclear Physics. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
36.           Lewis, E. Evidence of Microscopic Ball Lightning in Cold Fusion Experiments. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
37.           Lewis, E. Cold Fusion in the Context of a Scientific Revolution in Physics: History and Economic Ramifications. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
38.           Li, X., et al. Multiple Scattering Theory (MST) and Condensed Matter Nuclear Science -- "Super-Absorption" in a Crystal Lattice --. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
39.           Lochak, G. and L. Urutskoev. Low-energy nuclear reactions and the leptonic monopole. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
40.           Minari, T., et al. Experiments on Condensed Matter Nuclear Events in Kobe University. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
41.           Mizuno, T., et al. Neutron emission from D2 gas in magnetic fields under low temperature. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
42.           Mizuno, T., et al. Generation of Heat and Products During Plasma Electrolysis. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
43.           Moon, D. The Nucleovoltaic Cell. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
44.           Oriani, R.A. and J.C. Fisher. Energetic particle shower in the vapor from electrolysis. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
45.           Oriani, R.A. and J.C. Fisher. Nuclear reactions produced in an operating electrolysis cell. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
46.           P=E9rez-Pariente, J. Evidence For The Ocurrence Of Lenr-Type Processes In Alchemical Transmutations. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
47.            &= nbsp;   Pryakhin, E., et al. Assessment Of The Biological Effects Of "Strange" Radiation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
48.            &= nbsp;   Rambaut, M. Electrons clusters and magnetic monopoles. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
49.            &= nbsp;   Rothwell, J. Introducing The Book "Cold Fusion and the Future". in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
50.            &= nbsp;   Roussetski, A.S. Cr-39 Track Detectors In Cold Fusion Experiments: Review And Perspectives. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
51.            &= nbsp;   Savvatimova, I. and D. Gavritenkov. Results Of Analysis Of Ti Foil After Glow Discharge With Deuterium. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
52.            &= nbsp;   Spallone, A., et al. An Overview Of Experimental Studies On H/Pd Over-Loading With Thin Pd Wires And Different Electrolytic Solutions. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
53.            &= nbsp;   Stoljarov, P., L. Urutskoev, and H. Lehn. Interaction Of Magnetic Monopoles On Polar Molecules. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
54.           Storms, E. An Update of LENR for ICCF-11. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
55.            &= nbsp;   Stringham, R. Low Mass 1.6 MHz Sonofusion Reactor. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
56.           Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and F. Gordon. Precursors And The Fusion Reactions In Polarised Pd/D-D2O System: Effect Of An External Electric Field. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
57.           Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and F. Gordon. Precursors And The Fusion Reactions In Polarised Pd/D-D2O System: Effect Of An External Electric Field - PowerPoint presentation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
58.            &= nbsp;   Takahashi, A. 3He/4He Production Ratios By Tetrahedral Symmetric Condensation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
59.           Tian, J., et al. "Excess Heat" during Electrolysis in Platinium/K2CO3/Nickel Light Water System. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
60.           Toimela, T. Effective Interaction Potential in the Deuterium Plasma and Multiple Resonance Scattering. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
61.           Triassi, A. Variation Of The Concentration Of Isotopes Copper And Zinc In Human Plasmas Of Patients Affected By Cancer. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
62.            &= nbsp;   Tsuchida, K. and H. Okumura. Theoretical Study of Nuclear Reactions Induced by Bose-Einstein Condensation in Pd. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
63.            &= nbsp;   Vysotskii, V., et al. Experiments On Controlled Decontamination Of Water Mixture Of Long-Lived Active Isotopes In Biological Cells. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
64.            &= nbsp;   Vysotskii, V. and A.A. Kornilova. The Spatial Structure Of Water And The Problem Of Controlled Low Energy Nuclear Reactions In Water Matrix. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
65.           Wallace, K. and R. Stringham. A Tribute To Gene Mallove - The "Genie" Reactor. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
66.           Wei, Q., et al. Deuterium (Hydrogen) Flux Permeating through Palladium and Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
--=====================_17156828==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 12:17:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43JHIJ8010947; Tue, 3 May 2005 12:17:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43JHGxq010915; Tue, 3 May 2005 12:17:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:17:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008801c55014$b77d3010$a969c218 hanksblackbox> From: "Hank Scudder" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503143712.03cf2060 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: ICCF-11 titles Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:17:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0085_01C54FF3.303E3E80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C54FF3.303E3E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed, Shall I just pick one, or do you want to assign them in a more = orderly fashion? Hank ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jed Rothwell=20 To: vortex-L eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:40 PM Subject: ICCF-11 titles Here are all of the ICCF-11 titles that I am aware of, from my EndNote = database. 1. Abyaneh, M., et al. Concerning the Modeling of = Systems in Terms of Quantum Electrodynamics (QED): The Special Case of = "Cold Fusion". in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 2. Adamenko, S. and V. Vysotskii. The Conditions And = Realization Of Self-Similar Coulomb Collapse Of Condensed Target And = Low-Energy Laboratory Nucleosynthesis. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 3. Bazhutov, Y. and E. Pletnikov. Search For Erzion = Nuclear Catalysis Chains From Cosmic Ray Erzions Stopping In Organic = Scintillator. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 4. Bazhutov, Y., et al. Calorimetric And Neutron = Diagnostics Of Liquids During Laser Irradiation. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 5. Benson, T. and T.O. Passell. Calorimetry of = Energy-Efficient Glow Discharge - Apparatus Design and Calibration. in = Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004. Marseille, France. 6. Brown, J. Towards a robust theory of nuclear = interactions in deuteron bands. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 7. Campari, E.G., et al. Photon and particle emission, = heat production and surface transformation in Ni-H system. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 8. Campari, E.G., et al. Surface Analysis of hydrogen = loaded nickel alloys. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 9. Chubb, T. I. Bloch Ions. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 10. Chubb, T. II. Inhibited Diffusion Driven Surface = Transmutations. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 11. Chubb, T. III. Bloch Nuclides, Iwamura Transmutations, = and Oriani Showers. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 12. Chubb, S.R. Framework for Understanding LENR Processes, = Using Conventional Condensed Matter Physics. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 13. Cirillo, D. and V. Iorio. Transmutation of metal at low = energy in a confined plasma in water. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 14. Czerski, K., P. Heide, and A. Huke. Electron Screening = Constraints for Cold Fusion. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 15. Dash, J. and A. Ambadkar. Co-Deposition Of Palladium = With Hydrogen Isotopes. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 16. Filimonov, V.A. Neutrino-Driven Nuclear Reactions = Of Cold Fusion And Transmutation. in Eleventh International Conference = on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 17. Filippov, D., A. Rukhadze, and L.I. Urutshoev. Effects = of atomic electrons on nuclear stability and radioactive decay. in = Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004. Marseille, France. 18. Filippov, D., et al. On the possible magnetic mechanism = of shortening the runaway of RBMK-1000 reactor at Chernobyl Nuclear = Power Plant. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 19. Frisone, F. Theoretical Model Of The Probability Of = Fusion Between Deuterons Within Deformed Lattices With Micro-Cracks At = Room Temperature. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 20. Fukuhara, M. Possible Nuclear Transmutation Of = Nitrogen In The Earth's Atmosphere. in Eleventh International Conference = on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 21. Gareev, F., I. Zhidkova, and Y. Ratis. Enhancement = Mechanisms of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 22. Hora, H., et al. Low Energy Nuclear Reactions resulting = as picometer interactions with similarity to K-shell electron capture. = in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 23. Huke, A., et al. Evidence for a Target-Material = Dependence of the Neutron-Proton Branching Ratio in d+d Reactions for = Deuteron Energies below 20 keV. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 24. Huke, A., K. Czerski, and P. Heide. Accelerator = Experiments and Theoretical Models for the Electron Screening Effect in = Metallic Environments. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 25. Iwamura, Y. Observation of Nuclear Transmutation = Reactions induced by D2 Gas Permeation through Pd Complexes - PowerPoint = presentation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 26. Josephson, B. Good and Bad Ways to do Science - = PowerPoint presentation. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 27. Karabut, A. Excess Heat Power Production In Pd/D For = Pulse Periodic Discharge Current Of Various Conditions. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 28. Karabut, A. Research Into Characteristics Of X-Ray = Emission Laser Beams From Solid-State Cathode Medium Of High-Current = Glow Discharge. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 29. Kim, Y. and T.O. Passell. Alternative Interpretation of = Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction Processes with Deuterated Metals Based on = The Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 30. Kim, Y. and A. Zubarev. Mixtures of Charged Bosons = Confined in Harmonic Traps and Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism for = Low Energy Nuclear Reactions and Transmutation Processes in Condensed = Matter. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 31. Kim, Y., et al. Proposal for New Experimental Tests of = the Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism for Low Energy Nuclear Reaction = and Transmutation Processes in Deuterium Loaded Micro- and Nano-Scale = Cavities. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 32. Kowalski, L. History of attempts to publish a = paper. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 33. Kowalski, L., et al. Charged particles from Ti and = Pd foils. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 34. Kowalski, L. Recent cold fusion claims: are they = valid? in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 35. Kozima, H. Cold Fusion Phenomenon and Solid State = Nuclear Physics. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 36. Lewis, E. Evidence of Microscopic Ball Lightning in Cold = Fusion Experiments. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 37. Lewis, E. Cold Fusion in the Context of a Scientific = Revolution in Physics: History and Economic Ramifications. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 38. Li, X., et al. Multiple Scattering Theory (MST) and = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science -- "Super-Absorption" in a Crystal = Lattice --. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 39. Lochak, G. and L. Urutskoev. Low-energy nuclear = reactions and the leptonic monopole. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 40. Minari, T., et al. Experiments on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Events in Kobe University. in Eleventh International Conference = on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 41. Mizuno, T., et al. Neutron emission from D2 gas in = magnetic fields under low temperature. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 42. Mizuno, T., et al. Generation of Heat and Products = During Plasma Electrolysis. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 43. Moon, D. The Nucleovoltaic Cell. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 44. Oriani, R.A. and J.C. Fisher. Energetic particle shower = in the vapor from electrolysis. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 45. Oriani, R.A. and J.C. Fisher. Nuclear reactions produced = in an operating electrolysis cell. in Eleventh International Conference = on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 46. P=E9rez-Pariente, J. Evidence For The Ocurrence Of = Lenr-Type Processes In Alchemical Transmutations. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 47. Pryakhin, E., et al. Assessment Of The Biological = Effects Of "Strange" Radiation. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 48. Rambaut, M. Electrons clusters and magnetic = monopoles. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 49. Rothwell, J. Introducing The Book "Cold Fusion and = the Future". in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 50. Roussetski, A.S. Cr-39 Track Detectors In Cold = Fusion Experiments: Review And Perspectives. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 51. Savvatimova, I. and D. Gavritenkov. Results Of = Analysis Of Ti Foil After Glow Discharge With Deuterium. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 52. Spallone, A., et al. An Overview Of Experimental = Studies On H/Pd Over-Loading With Thin Pd Wires And Different = Electrolytic Solutions. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 53. Stoljarov, P., L. Urutskoev, and H. Lehn. = Interaction Of Magnetic Monopoles On Polar Molecules. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 54. Storms, E. An Update of LENR for ICCF-11. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 55. Stringham, R. Low Mass 1.6 MHz Sonofusion Reactor. = in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 56. Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and F. Gordon. Precursors = And The Fusion Reactions In Polarised Pd/D-D2O System: Effect Of An = External Electric Field. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 57. Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and F. Gordon. Precursors = And The Fusion Reactions In Polarised Pd/D-D2O System: Effect Of An = External Electric Field - PowerPoint presentation. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 58. Takahashi, A. 3He/4He Production Ratios By = Tetrahedral Symmetric Condensation. in Eleventh International Conference = on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 59. Tian, J., et al. "Excess Heat" during Electrolysis in = Platinium/K2CO3/Nickel Light Water System. in Eleventh International = Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 60. Toimela, T. Effective Interaction Potential in the = Deuterium Plasma and Multiple Resonance Scattering. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. 61. Triassi, A. Variation Of The Concentration Of Isotopes = Copper And Zinc In Human Plasmas Of Patients Affected By Cancer. in = Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004. Marseille, France. 62. Tsuchida, K. and H. Okumura. Theoretical Study of = Nuclear Reactions Induced by Bose-Einstein Condensation in Pd. in = Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004. Marseille, France. 63. Vysotskii, V., et al. Experiments On Controlled = Decontamination Of Water Mixture Of Long-Lived Active Isotopes In = Biological Cells. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 64. Vysotskii, V. and A.A. Kornilova. The Spatial = Structure Of Water And The Problem Of Controlled Low Energy Nuclear = Reactions In Water Matrix. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 65. Wallace, K. and R. Stringham. A Tribute To Gene Mallove = - The "Genie" Reactor. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. 66. Wei, Q., et al. Deuterium (Hydrogen) Flux Permeating = through Palladium and Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. in Eleventh = International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. = Marseille, France. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C54FF3.303E3E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed,     Shall I just = pick one, or=20 do you want to assign them in a more orderly fashion?
Hank
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jed Rothwell
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 = 2:40 PM
Subject: ICCF-11 titles

Here are all of the ICCF-11 titles that I am aware of, = from my=20 EndNote=20 = database.

1.         =       =20 Abyaneh, M., et al. Concerning the Modeling of Systems in Terms of = Quantum=20 Electrodynamics (QED): The Special Case of "Cold Fusion". in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
2.          =      =20 Adamenko, S. and V. Vysotskii. The Conditions And Realization Of=20 Self-Similar Coulomb Collapse Of Condensed Target And Low-Energy = Laboratory=20 Nucleosynthesis. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
3.          =      =20 Bazhutov, Y. and E. Pletnikov. Search For Erzion Nuclear Catalysis = Chains=20 From Cosmic Ray Erzions Stopping In Organic Scintillator. in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
4.          =      =20 Bazhutov, Y., et al. Calorimetric And Neutron Diagnostics Of = Liquids During=20 Laser Irradiation. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
5.          =   =20 Benson, T. and T.O. Passell. Calorimetry of Energy-Efficient Glow = Discharge=20 - Apparatus Design and Calibration. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
6.          =   =20 Brown, J. Towards a robust theory of nuclear interactions in = deuteron=20 bands. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear=20 Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
7.          =   =20 Campari, E.G., et al. Photon and particle emission, heat production = and=20 surface transformation in Ni-H system. in Eleventh = International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
8.          =   =20 Campari, E.G., et al. Surface Analysis of hydrogen loaded nickel=20 alloys. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
9.          =   =20 Chubb, T. I. Bloch Ions. in Eleventh International = Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
10.          = ;=20 Chubb, T. II. Inhibited Diffusion Driven Surface = Transmutations. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
11.          = ;=20 Chubb, T. III. Bloch Nuclides, Iwamura Transmutations, and Oriani=20 Showers. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
12.          = ;=20 Chubb, S.R. Framework for Understanding LENR Processes, Using = Conventional=20 Condensed Matter Physics. in Eleventh International Conference = on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
13.          = ;=20 Cirillo, D. and V. Iorio. Transmutation of metal at low energy in a = confined plasma in water. in Eleventh International Conference = on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
14.          = ;=20 Czerski, K., P. Heide, and A. Huke. Electron Screening Constraints = for Cold=20 Fusion. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
15.          = ;=20 Dash, J. and A. Ambadkar. Co-Deposition Of Palladium With Hydrogen=20 Isotopes. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
16.          = ;     =20 Filimonov, V.A. Neutrino-Driven Nuclear Reactions Of Cold Fusion = And=20 Transmutation. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
17.          = ;=20 Filippov, D., A. Rukhadze, and L.I. Urutshoev. Effects of atomic = electrons=20 on nuclear stability and radioactive decay. in Eleventh = International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
18.          = ;=20 Filippov, D., et al. On the possible magnetic mechanism of = shortening the=20 runaway of RBMK-1000 reactor at Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
19.          = ;=20 Frisone, F. Theoretical Model Of The Probability Of Fusion Between=20 Deuterons Within Deformed Lattices With Micro-Cracks At Room = Temperature.=20 in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear=20 Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
20.          = ;     =20 Fukuhara, M. Possible Nuclear Transmutation Of Nitrogen In The = Earth's=20 Atmosphere. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
21.          = ;=20 Gareev, F., I. Zhidkova, and Y. Ratis. Enhancement Mechanisms of = Low Energy=20 Nuclear Reactions. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
22.          = ;=20 Hora, H., et al. Low Energy Nuclear Reactions resulting as = picometer=20 interactions with similarity to K-shell electron capture. in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
23.          = ;=20 Huke, A., et al. Evidence for a Target-Material Dependence of the=20 Neutron-Proton Branching Ratio in d+d Reactions for Deuteron Energies = below 20=20 keV. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear=20 Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
24.          = ;=20 Huke, A., K. Czerski, and P. Heide. Accelerator Experiments and = Theoretical=20 Models for the Electron Screening Effect in Metallic Environments. = in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
25.          = ;=20 Iwamura, Y. Observation of Nuclear Transmutation Reactions induced = by D2=20 Gas Permeation through Pd Complexes - PowerPoint presentation. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
26.          = ;     =20 Josephson, B. Good and Bad Ways to do Science - PowerPoint=20 presentation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
27.          = ;=20 Karabut, A. Excess Heat Power Production In Pd/D For Pulse Periodic = Discharge Current Of Various Conditions. in Eleventh = International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
28.          = ;=20 Karabut, A. Research Into Characteristics Of X-Ray Emission Laser = Beams=20 From Solid-State Cathode Medium Of High-Current Glow Discharge. in = Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
29.          = ;=20 Kim, Y. and T.O. Passell. Alternative Interpretation of Low-Energy = Nuclear=20 Reaction Processes with Deuterated Metals Based on The Bose-Einstein=20 Condensation Mechanism. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
30.          = ;=20 Kim, Y. and A. Zubarev. Mixtures of Charged Bosons Confined in = Harmonic=20 Traps and Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism for Low Energy Nuclear=20 Reactions and Transmutation Processes in Condensed Matter. in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
31.          = ;=20 Kim, Y., et al. Proposal for New Experimental Tests of the = Bose-Einstein=20 Condensation Mechanism for Low Energy Nuclear Reaction and = Transmutation=20 Processes in Deuterium Loaded Micro- and Nano-Scale Cavities. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
32.          = ;     =20 Kowalski, L. History of attempts to publish a paper. in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
33.          = ;     =20 Kowalski, L., et al. Charged particles from Ti and Pd foils. in = Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
34.          = ;     =20 Kowalski, L. Recent cold fusion claims: are they valid? in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
35.          = ;=20 Kozima, H. Cold Fusion Phenomenon and Solid State Nuclear = Physics. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
36.          = ;=20 Lewis, E. Evidence of Microscopic Ball Lightning in Cold Fusion=20 Experiments. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
37.          = ;=20 Lewis, E. Cold Fusion in the Context of a Scientific Revolution in = Physics:=20 History and Economic Ramifications. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
38.          = ; Li,=20 X., et al. Multiple Scattering Theory (MST) and Condensed Matter = Nuclear=20 Science -- "Super-Absorption" in a Crystal Lattice --. in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
39.          = ;=20 Lochak, G. and L. Urutskoev. Low-energy nuclear reactions and the = leptonic=20 monopole. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
40.          = ;=20 Minari, T., et al. Experiments on Condensed Matter Nuclear Events = in Kobe=20 University. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
41.          = ;=20 Mizuno, T., et al. Neutron emission from D2 gas in magnetic fields = under=20 low temperature. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
42.          = ;=20 Mizuno, T., et al. Generation of Heat and Products During Plasma=20 Electrolysis. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
43.          = ;=20 Moon, D. The Nucleovoltaic Cell. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
44.          = ;=20 Oriani, R.A. and J.C. Fisher. Energetic particle shower in the = vapor from=20 electrolysis. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
45.          = ;=20 Oriani, R.A. and J.C. Fisher. Nuclear reactions produced in an = operating=20 electrolysis cell. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
46.          = ;=20 P=E9rez-Pariente, J. Evidence For The Ocurrence Of Lenr-Type = Processes In=20 Alchemical Transmutations. in Eleventh International Conference = on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
47.          = ;     =20 Pryakhin, E., et al. Assessment Of The Biological Effects Of = "Strange"=20 Radiation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
48.          = ;     =20 Rambaut, M. Electrons clusters and magnetic monopoles. in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
49.          = ;     =20 Rothwell, J. Introducing The Book "Cold Fusion and the Future". = in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
50.          = ;     =20 Roussetski, A.S. Cr-39 Track Detectors In Cold Fusion Experiments: = Review=20 And Perspectives. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
51.          = ;     =20 Savvatimova, I. and D. Gavritenkov. Results Of Analysis Of Ti Foil = After=20 Glow Discharge With Deuterium. in Eleventh International = Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
52.          = ;     =20 Spallone, A., et al. An Overview Of Experimental Studies On H/Pd=20 Over-Loading With Thin Pd Wires And Different Electrolytic = Solutions. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
53.          = ;     =20 Stoljarov, P., L. Urutskoev, and H. Lehn. Interaction Of Magnetic = Monopoles=20 On Polar Molecules. in Eleventh International Conference on = Condensed=20 Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
54.          = ;=20 Storms, E. An Update of LENR for ICCF-11. in Eleventh = International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
55.          = ;     =20 Stringham, R. Low Mass 1.6 MHz Sonofusion Reactor. in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
56.          = ;=20 Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and F. Gordon. Precursors And The = Fusion=20 Reactions In Polarised Pd/D-D2O System: Effect Of An External Electric = Field. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter = Nuclear=20 Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
57.          = ;=20 Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and F. Gordon. Precursors And The = Fusion=20 Reactions In Polarised Pd/D-D2O System: Effect Of An External Electric = Field -=20 PowerPoint presentation. in Eleventh International Conference = on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
58.          = ;     =20 Takahashi, A. 3He/4He Production Ratios By Tetrahedral Symmetric=20 Condensation. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
59.          = ;=20 Tian, J., et al. "Excess Heat" during Electrolysis in=20 Platinium/K2CO3/Nickel Light Water System. in Eleventh = International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
60.          = ;=20 Toimela, T. Effective Interaction Potential in the Deuterium Plasma = and=20 Multiple Resonance Scattering. in Eleventh International = Conference on=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
61.          = ;=20 Triassi, A. Variation Of The Concentration Of Isotopes Copper And = Zinc In=20 Human Plasmas Of Patients Affected By Cancer. in Eleventh = International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
62.          = ;     =20 Tsuchida, K. and H. Okumura. Theoretical Study of Nuclear Reactions = Induced=20 by Bose-Einstein Condensation in Pd. in Eleventh International=20 Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
63.          = ;     =20 Vysotskii, V., et al. Experiments On Controlled Decontamination Of = Water=20 Mixture Of Long-Lived Active Isotopes In Biological Cells. in = Eleventh=20 International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. = 2004.=20 Marseille,=20 = France.
64.          = ;     =20 Vysotskii, V. and A.A. Kornilova. The Spatial Structure Of Water = And The=20 Problem Of Controlled Low Energy Nuclear Reactions In Water = Matrix. in=20 Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear = Science.=20 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
65.          = ;=20 Wallace, K. and R. Stringham. A Tribute To Gene Mallove - The = "Genie"=20 Reactor. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 = France.
66.          = ;=20 Wei, Q., et al. Deuterium (Hydrogen) Flux Permeating through = Palladium and=20 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. in Eleventh International = Conference=20 on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille,=20 France.
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C54FF3.303E3E80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 12:31:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43JUxJ8018386; Tue, 3 May 2005 12:30:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43JUtct018359; Tue, 3 May 2005 12:30:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:30:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503152646.03d00830 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 15:30:36 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: ICCF-11 titles In-Reply-To: <008801c55014$b77d3010$a969c218 hanksblackbox> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050503143712.03cf2060 pop.mindspring.com> <008801c55014$b77d3010$a969c218 hanksblackbox> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See note in private e-mail. Try: SpalloneAanoverview.doc It is in pretty good shape, and you will love the colors in Table 1. Very Italian! We need to preserve that for posterity. I did a test conversion into Acrobat. It comes out just fine. Also, table 1 fits on one page, even though it does not fit in the Microsoft Word document for some reason. - Jed Hank Scudder wrote: >Jed, Shall I just pick one, or do you want to assign them in a more >orderly fashion? >Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 13:31:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43KUoQm014588; Tue, 3 May 2005 13:30:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43KUhvS014416; Tue, 3 May 2005 13:30:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:30:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O, Was RE: ICCF-11 papers.... Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 16:33:10 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <410-22005523171523790 earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >Yes. :-) I thought Indigo was using electroless Ni, or were they Ni >plating before magnetizing? Probably plated before magnetization, for ease in handling. But as I said, I really thought I'd get some kind of exotic Ni plating with a magnet substrate and found the results uninteresting. Maybe I wasn't using a powerful enough magnet? Worth trying again, at any rate. This is a good excuse to order a few NIB magnets. I'm hopeful to see your effect, but I suspect it may not be CF that causes it. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 14:06:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43L6IQm032326; Tue, 3 May 2005 14:06:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43L6Dt8032251; Tue, 3 May 2005 14:06:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:06:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Shell and Arie DeGeus (with spelling error corrected) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 17:05:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <1VBw_C.A.p3H.Df-dCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mark, Thanks for the tip. I suspect they're holding off till the apps grant, Randy must have priority here and would seem to me to be in the better position? I'd have to analyse the claims to get a better handle on this. Anyway, it would be bold to invest in the app unless they were sure it worked. He's got some US grants in solar energy systems, what was that about? Also a real oddball brazilian grant. I'll be happy to post #'s if you don't already know... If you're not under NDA, what can you tell us about your visit? K. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Goldes [mailto:mgoldes msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 12:11 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shell and Arie DeGeus (with spelling error corrected) Shell has spent some time visiting DeGeus who would appear to be BLPs chief, and perhaps only, competitor. His namesake headed Shell for some years, and Arie has a second home in the Netherlands. There is a family connection. The DeGeus fractional hydrogen system uses a proprietary metal alloy as fuel. When we visited him a few years ago Shell straddled our visit. They decided not to support his work at that time, but it could have simply been too early. He believed they would become a logical Strategic Partner for his work. Perhaps they have. Mark >From: "RC Macaulay" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: BLP implementation path >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:16:39 -0500 > >There are credible sources that also question BLP supposed claims. Granted >they have moved the subject ahead but the due diligence remains in " >stage". >A recent interview carried by the Houston Chronicle with the new head of >Shell Oil USA is revealing. The new head stated that Shell is spending >money on hydrogen technology.. emphasizing the point. hmmm. These people >have the money to set the rules for the game over the next 10 years. >Perhaps GM and Ford understand this better than Toyota. >Richard >----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:14 AM >Subject: Re: BLP implementation path > > >>On Thursday 14 April 2005 15:15, Mike Carrell wrote: >>>In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual >>>alternatives >>>have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. An important >>>factor is perceptions of the future. While expansion and a better future >>>are seen as possible, people will dream, hope, invest and work to make it >>>real. If that perception turns to gloom and doom and no light at the end >>>of >>>the tunnel, the collapse of international commerce and investment markets >>>may be swift. >>> >>>A workable road map to a better future will help. This drives the workers >>>and supporters of LENR technology, but it seems a bit beyond reach at the >>>moment. There is a likely alternative in Black Light Power. For those >>>here >>>who have not studied it I will give a sketch of its features and status, >>>with links to specific data. >>> >>>After a decade of R&D, with publication of theory and experiments, >>>privately funded Black Light Power has entered a phase of negotiation >>>with >>>a number of potential product development partners who are doing serious >>>due diligence studies of the BLP technology, including replication of >>>critical effects in their own laboratories. Many 'new energy' comapnies >>>have made this claim. All I can say is that I have credible sources and >>>my >>>own analysis of what has been presented in publications and on the BLP >>>website. Papers on key aspect of BLP technology have been published in >>>the >>>Journal of Applied Physics and other senior technical journals in the US >>>and abroad. >>> >>>Mills has been very active in refining his theory and developing >>>visualizations of the orbitsphere elctron model to aid third party >>>consultants retained by managements of prospective partners. He has >>>recently lectured to audiences in Holland. >>> >>...................goes on to long letter... >> >>Good use for it. Another use may be to utilize it for rocket propulsion. >>There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing >>the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and >>highly classified. This just may have been the real ticket for actual >>operation of the recently cancelled single stage to orbit shuttle, one of >>the 'X' series, X43 or something...could look it up but some of you know >>of this anyway. What we need is a good single stage to orbit shuttle. >>Would'nt this be nice if it worked? >> >>Standing Bear >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 14:31:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43LUiQm013121; Tue, 3 May 2005 14:30:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43LUgIP013092; Tue, 3 May 2005 14:30:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:30:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ICCF-11 papers are depressing X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050503213029.8D6A9B7A8 xprdmailfe14.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 17:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: <91DvQ.A.gMD.C2-dCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Tue 05/03, Jed Rothwell < jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: >>Michael Foster wrote; >>I wouldn't be so depressed if I were you. There are plenty of us >>out there doing CF research with very encouraging results who are >>just not publishing anything until the patent situation changes. > Frankly, I doubt there are any that could rival Szpak or Iwamura Don't be too sure about that. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 14:52:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43LqCQm026582; Tue, 3 May 2005 14:52:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43LqAcc026566; Tue, 3 May 2005 14:52:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:52:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c55029$67918b40$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "Vortex" References: Subject: Re: New Energy researches at KPN Consulting Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:45:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith , Interesting experiment with the Hg arc. (Fred isn't too happy with the results, so he probably wants to see the full 800 amps through there) Do you have a G-M or other type of radiation monitor? It would be interesting to know if there was any small amount of induced radioactivity in the Hg from the large amounts of current flowing through it, possibly due to activation one of the relatively unstable isotopes (or "electronium"). There should not be any change before vs. after, of course - but is there? 203 Hg is often used as a manufactured tracer, but there is a tiny amount of radioactivity in some natural ores which simply shouldn't be there, due to the short half-life. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 15:38:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43MblxI021085; Tue, 3 May 2005 15:37:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Mbhc0021056; Tue, 3 May 2005 15:37:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:37:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: New Energy researches at KPN Consulting Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 18:40:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <002d01c55029$67918b40$6401a8c0 NuDell> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jones, Yeah, I have no idea what that surplus tube can take, and when these guy pop you get mercury _everywhere_! I've driven smaller tubes to that current in the 100's of millisecond range, it's kind of scary 'cos you can here the arc popping. Besides, the calcs predicted plenty of force for that current, so no need to risk the tube. To be fair, I was probably more let down than Fred, I ended up putting more work into refurbishing the tube and trigger circuits than the experiment was worth. I prefer SCR's for my pulse experiments anyway. That said, a pair of car batteries makes a hell of a pulse generator, huh? The risetime surprised me, although you can't see it from the scope shot. I don't have a GM tube, although I should for reasons which should be abundantly clear knowing my zip code. But let's not go there, you know what I'm gonna say already (grin). Thanks George, splendid job you're doing there. I could probably check if someone sends me a tube. Otherwise it'd have to wait, I have my eye on a Tek FG504 at the moment. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 5:45 PM To: knagel gis.net; Vortex Subject: Re: New Energy researches at KPN Consulting Keith , Interesting experiment with the Hg arc. (Fred isn't too happy with the results, so he probably wants to see the full 800 amps through there) Do you have a G-M or other type of radiation monitor? It would be interesting to know if there was any small amount of induced radioactivity in the Hg from the large amounts of current flowing through it, possibly due to activation one of the relatively unstable isotopes (or "electronium"). There should not be any change before vs. after, of course - but is there? 203 Hg is often used as a manufactured tracer, but there is a tiny amount of radioactivity in some natural ores which simply shouldn't be there, due to the short half-life. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 15:40:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43MdsxI022382; Tue, 3 May 2005 15:39:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43MdodA022337; Tue, 3 May 2005 15:39:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:39:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050503233957.0067be20 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 23:39:57 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is a rather nice polarization applet at: http://home3.netcarrier.com/~chan/EM/PROGRAMS/POLARIZATION/ >From it one can get an immediate and clear conception of the nature of circular polarization and elliptical polarization as well for that matter. In effect the third component of light must be that which governs the phase angle. This ties is with Jones's insight in relation to three phase power transmission. It would appear that the third unrecognised phase must be one of the two components of mass referred to in a previous post. When googling ["three phase" theory] I was amused to come across the factor 1.732: ====================================================== POWER = E x I x 1.732 x POWER FACTOR (FOR THREE PHASE) ====================================================== which, as readers of my precious post may recall, is Vesica Pisces. 8^) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 16:38:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j43NbqxI016865; Tue, 3 May 2005 16:37:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j43Nbpwb016844; Tue, 3 May 2005 16:37:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 16:37:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.50] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Arie DeGeus Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 16:37:14 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 May 2005 23:37:15.0992 (UTC) FILETIME=[09EEA580:01C55039] Resent-Message-ID: <__U1jC.A.AHE.OtAeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keith, We are familiar with his earlier patents. We did not visit the lab where the fractional hydrogen work is done, but we did see some reasonably impressive video. Since Shell had expressed interest in that aspect, our focus was on his magnetic ZPE work. He told us what he planned to try. When he said he had a working prototype some months later, Kevin Shambrook, A Ph.D EE who is Chief Scientist and President of RTS, the MPI subsidiary developing Ultraconductors(tm), and has a strong magnetics background, went back. He was disappointed. It was obvious to him that Arie was making measurement errors and did not have what he thought he had. Since that time, he claims to have perfected his magnetic generator, but since we found the errors in his previous work, we are now persona non grata. I am not qualified to evaluate the fractional hydrogen experiments, but he seemed to have carried those forward some distance toward practical hardware. The patent picture remains cloudy. He is a bright fellow and has a few able people assisting him. I would not discount his ability to commercialize his work if a strong Strategic Partner, such as Shell, was to back him financially. Incidently, the late Dr. Robert Carroll, who was a consultant to our firm the last dozen years of his life, predicted the importance of fractional quantum states many years prior to Mills or DeGeus. He created an entire alternative physics, which included a number of accurate predictions. A mathematical physicist, whose first job was at an MIT Field Station, his dissent from Einstein insured that he was always viewed by mainstream scientists as a crank. His family maintains a website which features some of his work. He tried to patent a really cold fusion reactor, down close to absolute zero, many years prior to Pons and Fleishmann, but the patent office rejected the application. When the Utah work surfaced, he immediately sent me a two page technical memo, applauding their efforts and stating they had achieved what they claimed. He argued that what we now call LENR was easier to achieve at very cold temperatures, and that the physics establishment was headed into a dead end trying to produce hot fusion. Mark >From: "Keith Nagel" >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: RE: Shell and Arie DeGeus (with spelling error corrected) >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 17:05:26 -0400 > >Hi Mark, > >Thanks for the tip. > >I suspect they're holding off till the apps grant, Randy must >have priority here and would seem to me to be in the better >position? I'd have to analyse the claims to get a better >handle on this. Anyway, it would be bold to invest in the app unless >they were sure it worked. He's got some US grants in solar >energy systems, what was that about? Also a real oddball brazilian >grant. I'll be happy to post #'s if you don't already know... > >If you're not under NDA, what can you tell us about your visit? > >K. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Goldes [mailto:mgoldes msn.com] >Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 12:11 AM >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Shell and Arie DeGeus (with spelling error corrected) > > >Shell has spent some time visiting DeGeus who would appear to be BLPs >chief, >and perhaps only, competitor. His namesake headed Shell for some years, >and >Arie has a second home in the Netherlands. There is a family connection. > >The DeGeus fractional hydrogen system uses a proprietary metal alloy as >fuel. > >When we visited him a few years ago Shell straddled our visit. They >decided >not to support his work at that time, but it could have simply been too >early. He believed they would become a logical Strategic Partner for his >work. Perhaps they have. > >Mark > > >From: "RC Macaulay" > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: BLP implementation path > >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:16:39 -0500 > > > >There are credible sources that also question BLP supposed claims. >Granted > >they have moved the subject ahead but the due diligence remains in " > >stage". > >A recent interview carried by the Houston Chronicle with the new head of > >Shell Oil USA is revealing. The new head stated that Shell is spending > >money on hydrogen technology.. emphasizing the point. hmmm. These people > >have the money to set the rules for the game over the next 10 years. > >Perhaps GM and Ford understand this better than Toyota. > >Richard > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" > > >To: > >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:14 AM > >Subject: Re: BLP implementation path > > > > > >>On Thursday 14 April 2005 15:15, Mike Carrell wrote: > >>>In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual > >>>alternatives > >>>have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. An >important > >>>factor is perceptions of the future. While expansion and a better >future > >>>are seen as possible, people will dream, hope, invest and work to make >it > >>>real. If that perception turns to gloom and doom and no light at the >end > >>>of > >>>the tunnel, the collapse of international commerce and investment >markets > >>>may be swift. > >>> > >>>A workable road map to a better future will help. This drives the >workers > >>>and supporters of LENR technology, but it seems a bit beyond reach at >the > >>>moment. There is a likely alternative in Black Light Power. For those > >>>here > >>>who have not studied it I will give a sketch of its features and >status, > >>>with links to specific data. > >>> > >>>After a decade of R&D, with publication of theory and experiments, > >>>privately funded Black Light Power has entered a phase of negotiation > >>>with > >>>a number of potential product development partners who are doing >serious > >>>due diligence studies of the BLP technology, including replication of > >>>critical effects in their own laboratories. Many 'new energy' comapnies > >>>have made this claim. All I can say is that I have credible sources and > >>>my > >>>own analysis of what has been presented in publications and on the BLP > >>>website. Papers on key aspect of BLP technology have been published in > >>>the > >>>Journal of Applied Physics and other senior technical journals in the >US > >>>and abroad. > >>> > >>>Mills has been very active in refining his theory and developing > >>>visualizations of the orbitsphere elctron model to aid third party > >>>consultants retained by managements of prospective partners. He has > >>>recently lectured to audiences in Holland. > >>> > >>...................goes on to long letter... > >> > >>Good use for it. Another use may be to utilize it for rocket >propulsion. > >>There was a government funded study that stopped short of testing > >>the power of this rocket. Then nothing. Probably working now and > >>highly classified. This just may have been the real ticket for actual > >>operation of the recently cancelled single stage to orbit shuttle, one >of > >>the 'X' series, X43 or something...could look it up but some of you know > >>of this anyway. What we need is a good single stage to orbit shuttle. > >>Would'nt this be nice if it worked? > >> > >>Standing Bear > >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 17:45:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j440jOxI018685; Tue, 3 May 2005 17:45:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j440jMg4018665; Tue, 3 May 2005 17:45:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 17:45:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050504004515.43459.qmail web42108.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:45:15 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- John Fields wrote: > On Mon, 2 May 2005 10:59:26 +1000 (EST), you wrote: > > Have you seen this?: > > http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html Hi John, Thanks for that and yes I have seen it. Wonder what the big spring in the central column does? Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 18:24:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j441OLXw005530; Tue, 3 May 2005 18:24:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j441OHx6005497; Tue, 3 May 2005 18:24:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 18:24:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Arie DeGeus Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:26:43 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Mark, you write: >I am not qualified to evaluate the fractional hydrogen experiments, but he >seemed to have carried those forward some distance toward practical >hardware. The patent picture remains cloudy. It looks from the INPADOC legal data like he's been fighting it out with the examiners since 2002. This stuff is cited, US6024935, EP0395066, EP0461690 ( Boeing??? How 'bout that. ) BTW, WO0208787A3 sort of has heartburn written all over it. Every claim... >Incidently, the late Dr. Robert Carroll, who was a consultant to our firm >the last dozen years of his life, predicted the importance of fractional >quantum states many years prior to Mills or DeGeus. Huh. I'll have to check him out, this is the site then? http://www.pride-net.com/physics/ K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 19:50:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j442nuOa009879; Tue, 3 May 2005 19:49:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j442nofi009843; Tue, 3 May 2005 19:49:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 19:49:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.27] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Robert Carroll Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 19:50:00 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 May 2005 02:50:01.0239 (UTC) FILETIME=[F75B4A70:01C55053] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keith, That's him alright. I believe we have a copy of his original patent application for fusion close to absolute zero. He delivered his last paper in San Francisco at a AAAS meeting, which for the first, and only, time had a Section devoted to non-relativistic physics. At the end he delightedly wrote on the blackboard what he had calculated was the maximum speed a spacecraft could attain -- 20,000,000C. The short book on the site, Arcturus by Dawn, reflects a quick synopsis of his physics. His views can change the impact of a walk under a night sky filled with stars. At least one young scientist believes he was more correct than most will allow. Mark >From: "Keith Nagel" >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: RE: Arie DeGeus >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:26:43 -0400 > >Hey Mark, > >you write: > >I am not qualified to evaluate the fractional hydrogen experiments, but >he > >seemed to have carried those forward some distance toward practical > >hardware. The patent picture remains cloudy. > >It looks from the INPADOC legal data like he's been fighting >it out with the examiners since 2002. This stuff is cited, > >US6024935, EP0395066, EP0461690 ( Boeing??? How 'bout that. ) > >BTW, WO0208787A3 sort of has heartburn written all over it. Every claim... > > >Incidently, the late Dr. Robert Carroll, who was a consultant to our firm > >the last dozen years of his life, predicted the importance of fractional > >quantum states many years prior to Mills or DeGeus. > >Huh. I'll have to check him out, this is the site then? > >http://www.pride-net.com/physics/ > >K. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 20:59:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j443wubI004839; Tue, 3 May 2005 20:58:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j443wq3n004800; Tue, 3 May 2005 20:58:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 20:58:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 13:58:37 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050503122017.YUFS1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050503122017.YUFS1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j443wibI004691 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 3 May 2005 8:20:17 -0400: Hi, [snip] >> From: Robin van Spaandonk > >> That still doesn't answer my question though. > >I'm sorry, the question was regarding googling echo returns from the moon? No, the question was, "doesn't anyone listen at radar frequencies, without a directional antenna?" Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 01:00:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j447xYYK020355; Wed, 4 May 2005 00:59:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j447xJsv020184; Wed, 4 May 2005 00:59:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 00:59:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050504085924.0069e414 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:59:24 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Arie DeGeus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:37 pm 03-05-05 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Keith, > >We are familiar with his earlier patents. We did not visit the lab where >the fractional hydrogen work is done, but we did see some reasonably >impressive video. > >Since Shell had expressed interest in that aspect, our focus was on his >magnetic ZPE work. He told us what he planned to try. When he said he had >a working prototype some months later, Kevin Shambrook, A Ph.D EE who is >Chief Scientist and President of RTS, the MPI subsidiary developing >Ultraconductors(tm), and has a strong magnetics background, went back. He >was disappointed. It was obvious to him that Arie was making measurement >errors and did not have what he thought he had. > >Since that time, he claims to have perfected his magnetic generator, but >since we found the errors in his previous work, we are now persona non >grata. > >I am not qualified to evaluate the fractional hydrogen experiments, but he >seemed to have carried those forward some distance toward practical >hardware. The patent picture remains cloudy. > >He is a bright fellow and has a few able people assisting him. I would not >discount his ability to commercialize his work if a strong Strategic >Partner, such as Shell, was to back him financially. > >Incidently, the late Dr. Robert Carroll, who was a consultant to our firm >the last dozen years of his life, predicted the importance of fractional >quantum states many years prior to Mills or DeGeus. He created an entire >alternative physics, which included a number of accurate predictions. A >mathematical physicist, whose first job was at an MIT Field Station, his >dissent from Einstein insured that he was always viewed by mainstream >scientists as a crank. His family maintains a website which features some >of his work. He tried to patent a really cold fusion reactor, down close to >absolute zero, many years prior to Pons and Fleishmann, but the patent >office rejected the application. When the Utah work surfaced, he >immediately sent me a two page technical memo, applauding their efforts and >stating they had achieved what they claimed. He argued that what we now >call LENR was easier to achieve at very cold temperatures, and that the >physics establishment was headed into a dead end trying to produce hot >fusion. > >Mark That was interesting stuff on Dr. Robert Carroll. His claim about low temperatures has echoes of my suggestion about high pF accounting for cold fusion. You say, --------------------------------------------------- "His family maintains a website which features some of his work." --------------------------------------------------- Do you have a URL for this website. I have tried googling but "Robert Carroll" is a common string and I have been unable to find it. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 07:19:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44EJIYK012099; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:19:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44EJFB9012067; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:19:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 07:19:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:19:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050504141907.NGIT1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Robin van Spaandonk > No, the question was, "doesn't anyone listen at radar frequencies, > without a directional antenna?" None that I know. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 10:22:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44HLxeg003643; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:22:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44HLv8J003627; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:21:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 13:22:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes In-reply-to: <20050504141907.NGIT1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What form would a non-directional antenna have? Harry Terry Blanton wrote: > >> >> From: Robin van Spaandonk > >> No, the question was, "doesn't anyone listen at radar frequencies, >> without a directional antenna?" > > None that I know. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 10:38:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44HcFeg012452; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:38:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44HcDmX012428; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:38:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:38:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504124744.0324a980 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:50:27 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: I have started uploading ICCF-11 papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have begun uploading the ICCF-11 papers, including ones that do not require editing and ones that I cannot edit (because they are already in Acrobat format). See: http://lenr-canr.org/FilesByDate.htm This one would be nice if true: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MoonDthenucleov.pdf These two papers impressed the audience at the conference: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HukeAevidencefo.pdf http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HukeAaccelerato.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 11:32:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44IVewn021220; Wed, 4 May 2005 11:31:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44IUrMV020135; Wed, 4 May 2005 11:30:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 11:30:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050504193034.006af868 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:30:34 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Robert Carroll Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have started reading Carroll's stuff. He is certainly a man after my own heart if the following gem is anything to go by. ------------------------------------------------------------------ If the reader detects a note of sarcasm in the above statement, it is only because it was meant to be so. Our present level of scientific knowledge is about that of the kindergarten dropout. Consider the fact that the aberration of light from celestial objects is well known. There is no corresponding evidence that such an aberration exists in the law of central forces by which a satellite system such as the sun and its planets is established. ------------------------------------------------------------------ And a bit lower down the opening page, this - ------------------------------------------------------------ The oddest of all the oddities concerning the human animal is his apparent lack of predisposition toward the truth. The statement: "in any argument, the loudest voice prevails, " has nothing to indicate that truth is involved. It is useless to speculate what might have been. Leibniz was a rival of Newton, both in mathematics and in physics. He ridiculed Newton's concept of space with the statement: "There is no space where there is no matter." ------------------------------------------------------------ Amen to that, I say - but then seeing as I realise that matter is held together from without and not from within, I would say that wouldn't I. If nothing else, it looks as though Carroll's stuff will be a wonderful source of quotations. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 11:48:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44IlbfR004385; Wed, 4 May 2005 11:47:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44IlZck004347; Wed, 4 May 2005 11:47:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 11:47:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 14:47:39 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> In-Reply-To: <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Public wrote: >> Have you seen this?: >> >> http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html > > > Wow. Notice that the magnets are moving at 90d angles from the motion > of the ball in each cycle, in the movie clip. Reminds me of the SMOT. > > Of course, if it really is a perpetual motion machine, then this'll be > the biggest thing since Relativity, It'll be the biggest thing since Principia Mathematica. It's much bigger than relativity. PM of the first kind using static magnets goes down to the bedrock of all physics for the last couple centuries and dynamites it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 12:09:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44J8efR018614; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:08:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44J8WKJ018531; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:08:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:08:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42791C7E.1060503 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:03:26 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prometheus Effect wrote: >4) My inability to deliver a device which could >deliver ***significant*** energy > (emphasis added) Don't you get it? You only need to deliver POSITIVE energy, any amount greater than zero. It does not need to be "significant". If it's > 0 then you've produced something fundamentally revolutionary, beyond the wildest dreams of anyone in mainstream science, and beyond the wildest dreams of anyone at the patent office, where they won't touch perpetual motion machines of the first kind (or they wouldn't, last I heard). Cold fusion needs to deliever **significant** energy in order to be a useful power source, which is what everyone is hoping for. On the other hand, a PM machine of the first kind need only deliver _positive_ energy in order to turn all of physics on its head. The two situations are not comparable. >The >focus is on understanding the effect and not on >building devices. > > Magnets and gravity, on the scale you're talking about, are already well understood. Build the device or stop wasting everybody's time -- "understanding" a ball being attracted to a magnet involves nothing new. "Virtually no dragback" is nonsense because you need to compare the total work done along the inbound and outbound paths. "Small" dragback is exactly what one would expect if the exit path is longer than the entrance path. Change in energy goes as the product of the distance with the force; all you're looking at is the force and your intuition as to what is "virtually" zero versus what is predicted by first-year E&M is just plain not dependable in this kind of situation. This is not a slur on you; normal intuition isn't up to this job because our normal experience is limited to situations where friction is significant and energy doesn't appear to be conserved. >Once the independent Prometheus Effect verifiers have >reported back their results > Uh huh. Making useless measurements that will convince nobody of anything. >, I will reveal photos and >a video of the toy SRRS device I'm building. > > There is no such thing as a "TOY" over-unity device using static magnets. If it's real, it's not a toy. (It's a toy the same way a battlefield nuke would be a "toy nuke".) Photos of something you "are building" are not interesting. Until and unless you can close the loop and complete a PM machine for real, what you've got is nothing but hot air. (It'll lift a balloon but it won't give you more energy back than you put in to start with.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 12:25:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44JPJfR027808; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:25:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44JPGmi027786; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:25:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:25:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> Subject: Finsrud device Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 15:24:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This is actually not new; the ball has been happily rolling around for years, to my knowledge. It is on display in a public museum. The testatika machine has been supplying power to the Methernitha colony for years also; many have seen it a documented it and it is conveniently ignored, like the elephant in the living room. One can endlessly spectulate [and many have] on what is "really" going on. As for a spring, I knowof no report that the Finsrud device is wound up by a staff memebver each morning. Mike Carrell > > > Public wrote: > > >> Have you seen this?: > >> > >> http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html > > > > > > Wow. Notice that the magnets are moving at 90d angles from the motion > > of the ball in each cycle, in the movie clip. Reminds me of the SMOT. > > > > Of course, if it really is a perpetual motion machine, then this'll be > > the biggest thing since Relativity, > > It'll be the biggest thing since Principia Mathematica. It's much > bigger than relativity. > > PM of the first kind using static magnets goes down to the bedrock of > all physics for the last couple centuries and dynamites it. > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 12:30:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44JU5fh029840; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:30:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44JAxEH021106; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:10:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:10:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:10:29 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years In-Reply-To: <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>Of course, if it really is a perpetual motion machine, then this'll be >>the biggest thing since Relativity, > >It'll be the biggest thing since Principia Mathematica. It's much bigger >than relativity. > >PM of the first kind using static magnets goes down to the bedrock of all >physics for the last couple centuries and dynamites it. Exactly right. What is it strange is that many of the people making these claims, including some well-educated ones, do not seem to realize this. I have never bought this notion that "extraordinary claims call for blah blah blah . . ." But people should at least be cognizant of the fact that they are making extraordinary claims! And they should expect disbelief, and be ready to deal with it. They should offer rock solid evidence even if it is not extraordinary. Ditto claims by Mills and Correa. As far as I know, the only anomalous energy claim that has claimed any scientific basis in conventional theory is cold fusion. Of course many people disagree, but Hagelstein and others believe it can be explained with textbook physics. As for Greg Watson, not only has he failed to offer solid evidence, he has failed to offer *any* evidence for his fantasies. He gives us only bloviation, fraud and empty promises. His tag line tells you what game he is in: "Now it's just engineering effort, time and money . . ." Translation 1: "My hobby is to just sit at home and engineer ways to waste your time and separate you from your money." Translation 2: "Send more money, sucker." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 12:40:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44JeSfR002327; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:40:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44JeR4L002306; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:40:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:40:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504153134.0325db20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:40:10 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Finsrud device In-Reply-To: <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >The testatika machine has been supplying power to the Methernitha colony >for years also; many have seen it a documented it and it is conveniently >ignored... All the documentation of this device that I have seen proves absolutely nothing. It consists of hearsay, blurry photographs, crackpot theories and some kind of religious cult. Supposedly the colony keeps the device secret for the same reason Correa once offered: they think mankind is not worthy of their discovery. You can find any amount of this kind of "information" about the Methernitha gadget on the Internet, starting at their own website: http://www.methernitha.com/Mether_2/Free_energie/free_energie.html Every scrap of this information tied together is still not worth spit. That goes for all of the other magic magnetic motors and perpetual motion machines, as far as I know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 12:42:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44JgKfR003508; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:42:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44JgJMh003496; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:42:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:42:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050504204230.0069eba8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 20:42:30 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:47 pm 04-05-05 -0400, you wrote: > > >Public wrote: > >>> Have you seen this?: >>> >>> http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html >> >> >> Wow. Notice that the magnets are moving at 90d angles from the motion >> of the ball in each cycle, in the movie clip. Reminds me of the SMOT. >> >> Of course, if it really is a perpetual motion machine, then this'll be >> the biggest thing since Relativity, > >It'll be the biggest thing since Principia Mathematica. It's much >bigger than relativity. > >PM of the first kind using static magnets goes down to the bedrock of >all physics for the last couple centuries and dynamites it. > I have a question. Supposing (as I believe) that magnetic lines of force are not perfectly orthogonal to electric, would that allow for the type of harnessing of the magnetic, what shall I call it, wind, perhaps? After all, to a quasi modo the magnetic flux does look extraordinarily like a violent flow of stuff from a source to a sink at the bottom of a deep ocean. The idea of tapping such a manifest cornucopia of energy is no sillier than trying to fly like a bird or emulate the cow that jumped over the moon. 8-) Harnessing such a "wind" would not of course constitute perpetual motion anymore than harnessing an atmospheric wind with a conventional windmill entails perpetual motion. One would merely be tapping a source of, as yet, untapped energy. Cheers Frank Grimer. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 12:47:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44Jl4fR005818; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:47:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44Jl2R7005806; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:47:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:47:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c550e2$09e8cd50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504124744.0324a980 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: I have started uploading ICCF-11 papers Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:47:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > This one would be nice if true: > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MoonDthenucleov.pdf Indeed, it is interesting, even if Moon fits into a "certain" mold... but at least I hope that someone with experimental skills is trying out the possible variations of the self-powered transistor (diode) theme ... but... (caveat). Here is some more info on the writer, David Moon: http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-item?item=4948&9210443-23964aaa Unfortunately (or fortunately for some readers of this forum) the author wants to promote his own religious perspective using LENR and CF as a model for broader and more tenuous religious beliefs, to wit: " In Carbon Dating, Cold Fusion, and a Curve Ball, the author postulates interfering nuclear (element) changes occurring in the Earth, and proposes that extensive element transmutations occurred from intense hydrodynamics during the Flood of Noah (Genesis 6-8). If so, it is conceivable much alteration of radioactive elements took place, rendering unreliable the radioactive dating results in most analyses done today. A relatively simple test of this theory is outlined. The test would use a piece of bismuth metal, a tank of water, and a boat's outboard motor." Even if he is correct, mixing science with religion will get you only a larger measure of suspicion and ridicule from the people who matter in the physics establishment, and in a field which does not need any added layers of disbelief, it is unwise to do so until you have demonstrated you are correct on one or the other. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 12:50:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44JnjfR006871; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:49:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44JnfGK006840; Wed, 4 May 2005 12:49:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:49:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4279275B.2070100 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:49:47 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How would you calculate KE References: <20050504025537.55193.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050504025537.55193.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please stop cross-posting to Vortex and other groups. Prometheus Effect wrote: >Guys, > >How would you calculate the final KE of a vertically >falling ball assuming you know the mass of the ball, g >and you could accurately measure the transit time of >the last say 25mm of the vertical drop? > >Then, assuming you knew the total drop distance, would >not a lower measured KE (than PE theory would predict) >indicate the amount of effective reduction in the >acceleration of gravity due to magnetic dragback? Given a = acceleration = g t0 = time at which the first marker is passed t1 = time at which the second marker is passed Dt = (t1 - t0) x0 = height of first marker, x increases DOWNWARD x1 = height of second marker, x increases DOWNWARD Dx = (x1 - x0) v0 = velocity when the ball passes x0 v1 = velocity when the ball passes x1 You can measure t0 and t1, you know x0 and x1, and you want to compute v1. Right? But v0 will be almost as good (you can compute v1 from it) and that's what I'll do first. One more thing; I will define: I(...)dx == integral(...)dx, 'cause I haven't got an integral sign here. Now, start the clock at time t0, so that t0 == 0. Then: v = v0 + at (for all values of t >= t0) x1 = x0 + I(v)dt = x0 + I(v0 + at)dt {integral from t0 to t1} = x0 + v0*Dt + [(a/2) t^2]{from t0 to t1} = x0 + v0*Dt + (a/2)(t1^2 - t0^2) Dx = v0*Dt + (a/2)*t1^2 v0 = (Dx - (a/2)*Dt^2)/Dt v0 = (Dx/Dt) - (a/2)*Dt Or at any rate that's what I got just now using a bit of scrap paper. Just measure x0, x1, t0, and t1, plug them in, and you get v0. Then to find v1, v1 = v0 + a*Dt But don't build any bridges based on this unless you double-check it :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 13:08:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44K81fR015945; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:08:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44K7qpZ015728; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:07:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:07:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050504210743.006aabe0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:07:43 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: I have started uploading ICCF-11 papers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:47 pm 04-05-05 -0700, Jones wrote: > >Even if he is correct, mixing science with religion will get you >only a larger measure of suspicion and ridicule from the people >who matter in the physics establishment, and in a field which does >not need any added layers of disbelief, it is unwise to do so >until you have demonstrated you are correct on one or the other. > >Jones I couldn't agree more. One has to turn water into wine and mutiply loaves and pisces if one wants to be believed. 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 13:16:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44KGLfR021400; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:16:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44KG8kX021256; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:16:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:16:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:02:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > >>Of course, if it really is a perpetual motion machine, then this'll be > >>the biggest thing since Relativity, > > > >It'll be the biggest thing since Principia Mathematica. It's much bigger > >than relativity. > > > >PM of the first kind using static magnets goes down to the bedrock of all > >physics for the last couple centuries and dynamites it. > > Exactly right. What is it strange is that many of the people making these > claims, including some well-educated ones, do not seem to realize this. I > have never bought this notion that "extraordinary claims call for blah blah > blah . . ." But people should at least be cognizant of the fact that they > are making extraordinary claims! And they should expect disbelief, and be > ready to deal with it. They should offer rock solid evidence even if it is > not extraordinary. > > Ditto claims by Mills and Correa. As far as I know, the only anomalous > energy claim that has claimed any scientific basis in conventional theory > is cold fusion. Of course many people disagree, but Hagelstein and others > believe it can be explained with textbook physics. Jed's brush is too wide. Mills does not claim 'anomalous energy', there is a measureable fuel consumption, many documentated and detailes experiments, and confirmation by other observers. He needs to do his homework more carefully. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 13:17:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44KGVfR021490; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:16:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44KG4BC021175; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:16:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:16:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <001b01c550e5$f8f38950$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504153134.0325db20@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Finsrud device Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 15:58:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >The testatika machine has been supplying power to the Methernitha colony > >for years also; many have seen it a documented it and it is conveniently > >ignored... > > All the documentation of this device that I have seen proves absolutely > nothing. It consists of hearsay, blurry photographs, crackpot theories and > some kind of religious cult. Supposedly the colony keeps the device secret > for the same reason Correa once offered: they think mankind is not worthy > of their discovery. > > You can find any amount of this kind of "information" about the Methernitha > gadget on the Internet, starting at their own website: > > http://www.methernitha.com/Mether_2/Free_energie/free_energie.html > > Every scrap of this information tied together is still not worth spit. That > goes for all of the other magic magnetic motors and perpetual motion > machines, as far as I know. Jed's usual disclaimer. I can say that I attended a lecture by a person with physicist credentials at Temple University some years ago who had video and pictures of the device, and stated that he has personally witnessed a demonstration. I cna agree with Jed that the videos, etc., are worthless documentation, as the web site image of the Finsrud ball rolling around. It's a very pretty and interesting mobile structure, but in itself 'proves' nothing. Mike Carrell > > - Jed > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 13:24:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44KO6fR028902; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:24:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44KO4HJ028864; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:24:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:24:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050504132825.03335e58 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 13:30:50 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: ICCF-11 papers are depressing In-Reply-To: <42779BE6.6010001 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow Ed .... I don't think I've ever heard such optimism from you. It is certainly welcome! s At 09:42 AM 5/3/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Quite the opposite, Jed. The field is moving forward on several >fronts. The field has now changed in two important ways. People who >have had some success are now exploring parameter space to improve the >effect. This work is not being published because it has patent potential. >In contrast, the effect is so hard to produce that most people have little >to talk about, so they fill a meeting with "theory". The evidence has now >reached a critical mass so people who do not have an ego to protect >realize an important reality has been discovered. Consequently, money is >stating to flow into the field. As successful work is replicated and as a >few of the methods reach large energy production rates, even the skeptics >will be silenced and politicians will risk supporting the field. The >problem now is only psychological. This is the time when people having >courage and an open mind start down the road to fame and riches. > >Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 13:33:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44KWwfR002802; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:32:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44KWcM4002578; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:32:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:32:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: I have started uploading ICCF-11 papers Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:34:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050504210743.006aabe0 pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Frank. You write: >I couldn't agree more. One has to turn water > into wine...if one wants to be believed. 8-) OK Frank, you know I can't resist a good challenge *grin* http://www.blacktable.com/gillin030901.htm ...but I'll need some ketchup too. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 13:47:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44KkvfR012051; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:46:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44Kkef8011922; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:46:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:46:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427934C6.6000809 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 16:47:02 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good point. It would have to be a point source. Even a dipole has directionality. Harry Veeder wrote: >What form would a non-directional antenna have? > >Harry > >Terry Blanton wrote: > > > >>>From: Robin van Spaandonk >>> >>> >>>No, the question was, "doesn't anyone listen at radar frequencies, >>>without a directional antenna?" >>> >>> >>None that I know. >> >> >> > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 14:00:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44KxnfR019401; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:59:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44KxjKJ019342; Wed, 4 May 2005 13:59:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:59:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c550ec$2b8a8750$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20050504193034.006af868 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Robert Carroll Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 15:58:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From reading Carroll it is apparent he had a humor to temper his intellect. As time goes by I am coming to realize that CF will emerge just as I am considering the major movement will occur as the result of new mathematics rather than physics alone. Carroll relied upon his math wisdom and skills to lead him in much of his work. Way back in the 1950's I enjoyed a fellowship with some remarkable minds.. alas there are all since passed. Carroll reminde me of some of them Since that time the closest I have come to such an association has been VortexL.. Clapping hands.!!! I suggest that Carroll recognized the complexity of the math required to " crack the code" of CF. Again, we discussed this way back in the 1950's and concluded a " machine" would be needed to handle the complexity. Now I realize the "machine" would be a computer. The existing software is insufficent to deal with the task which is why I suggested a form of quadratic computing. I have read about the arguments for " quantum computing" and the ridicule surounding it. Should the word "quadratic" be used in lieu of " quantum" we may have already be in motion toward the software. Looking at kid's computer games like " game boy " etc I notice the software people have already worked across some of the major steps toward " quadratics". I envisioned the software in four sections. The first is the base with two varaible and a differential bias to load weight of balance between the two variables. NOW!! hold onto your hat because this gets near the edge.. the two variables are 3D which means their analog values must be converted to digital " on the fly" which is how game boy performs. The idea of using 3 D collectors similar to a parabolic mirror as each of the two variables provide the infinite measure which in turn can be calibtrated ( biased) like a proportional and reset controller. The complexity comes from how to differentiate. My experience with derivative features in a controller lead me to consider the problem has again, already been solved by industry evidenced by the numerous industrial controllers with programmable features. Carroll is one of those people you would like to have spent relaxed time with. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: RE: Robert Carroll >I have started reading Carroll's stuff. He is certainly a man after > my own heart if the following gem is anything to go by. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > If the reader detects a note of sarcasm in the above statement, > it is only because it was meant to be so. Our present level of > scientific knowledge is about that of the kindergarten dropout. > Consider the fact that the aberration of light from celestial > objects is well known. There is no corresponding evidence that > such an aberration exists in the law of central forces by which > a satellite system such as the sun and its planets is established. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > And a bit lower down the opening page, this - > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The oddest of all the oddities concerning the human animal > is his apparent lack of predisposition toward the truth. > The statement: "in any argument, the loudest voice prevails, > " has nothing to indicate that truth is involved. It is > useless to speculate what might have been. Leibniz was a > rival of Newton, both in mathematics and in physics. He > ridiculed Newton's concept of space with the statement: > "There is no space where there is no matter." > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Amen to that, I say - but then seeing as I realise that matter is > held together from without and not from within, I would say that > wouldn't I. > > If nothing else, it looks as though Carroll's stuff will be a > wonderful source of quotations. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 14:09:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44L9MfR024092; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:09:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44L8pcM023961; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:08:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:08:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 17:08:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years In-Reply-To: <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >But people should at least be cognizant of the fact that they > > are making extraordinary claims! And they should expect disbelief, and be > > ready to deal with it. They should offer rock solid evidence even if it is > > not extraordinary. > > > > Ditto claims by Mills and Correa. As far as I know, the only anomalous > > energy claim that has claimed any scientific basis in conventional theory > > is cold fusion. Of course many people disagree, but Hagelstein and others > > believe it can be explained with textbook physics. > >Jed's brush is too wide. Mills does not claim 'anomalous energy' . . . I classify both cold fusion and the Mills claims as "anomalous" energy. "Anomalous" is not synonymous with "unbelievable" -- it just means there is no explanation. Mills, unlike CF, does not have a textbook physics explanation. He proposes to rewrite the textbooks. That does not mean he is wrong, but it does mean he must be cognizant of the fact that most scientists will find his claims very difficult to swallow. I am sure he knows that! Mills is much, much better and far more credible than people like the Methernitha crowd, Greg Watson, or for that matter Correa. But he still has a wide credibility gap, and he still has not made a real effort to convince people. The last thing he told me, years ago, is that he does not want to convince people, and that he likes things the way they are. (That was also the last thing I heard from the late James Reding while he was diligently shredding Patterson's prospects. Several CF researchers have also told me they like being big fish in a small pond.) Many years ago Mills supposedly had energy producing devices which would have convinced any reasonable engineer, such as the devices he and Thermacore developed, described by Donald Ernst in 1992. Assuming those claims were not a horrible mistake, or for some reason they could not be replicated, Mills could have easily used those devices to convince the entire world that his claims are valid. I do not know what to make of the fact that he failed to do that. I am forced to conclude that: 1. Either the claims fell through for some reason I never heard about, or 2. Mills is stark-staring crazy, like most other people in over-unity energy biz. I have heard many times that it is actually: 3. Mills is working on some ultra clever secret business scheme. But I do not believe this, because I simply cannot imagine any business strategy that would have worked better than revealing the whole thing back in 1992, and letting events take their natural course. It is hard to imagine any scenario that would have eventually worked out with Mills being less than a dozen times richer than Bill Gates by now, and him being the most famous and respected person on earth. After 14 years millions of people would have seen the effect, and I think there is simply no question Mills would have been given the full credit for it, and objections would have been swept aside by now, by the force of public opinion. >. . . there is a measureable fuel consumption, many documentated and >detailed experiments, and confirmation by other observers. Oh come now. Yes, we all agree that Mills has done some interesting experiments, but the confirmations by other observers hardly compares to the confirmations available for CF. Most of the confirming evidence he cited years ago was only distantly related to his claims. All this would be forgivable -- indeed it would be the only viable path forward -- if Mills had not held in his hands devices that would have convinced millions of engineers worldwide back in 1992. If you can convince engineers you do not need to worry what the physicists think. You can ignore them along with the patent office, Scientific American, and the rest of the peanut gallery. Engineers far outnumber physicists, and they have much greater access to capital and the real-world levers of power. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 14:23:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44LMtfR031293; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:22:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44LMkkn031245; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:22:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:22:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504171635.0325d7e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 17:22:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <99RzwB.A.BoH.k0TeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >I classify both cold fusion and the Mills claims as "anomalous" energy. >"Anomalous" is not synonymous with "unbelievable" -- it just means there >is no explanation. Mills, unlike CF, does not have a textbook physics >explanation. That is contradictory. Obviously I meant that "anomalous" indicates there is no agreed-upon or generally accepted explanation yet. Hagelstein and others have proposed conventional explanations for CF, and as we all know many others have proposed unconventional theories. Mills has only proposed a highly unconventional theory that most physicists dismiss out of hand. Both the Mills theory and claims must overcome a powerful Coulomb barrier of disbelief. CF should have a somewhat easier time, in principle anyway, but in practice both CF and the Mills claims are wandering in the wilderness. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 14:54:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j44LsBfR013189; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:54:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j44Lr6Tr012971; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:53:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:53:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504174932.0324f210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 17:52:54 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Windom & Larsen paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Nagel thinks this paper may be germane to CF, for obvious reasons: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf Ultra Low Momentum Neutron Catalyzed Nuclear Reactions on Metallic Hydride Surfaces A. Widom, L. Larsen Lattice Energy LLC, 175 North Harbor Drive, Chicago IL 60601 ABSTRACT Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions in metallic hydride system surfaces are discussed. Weak interaction catalysis initially occurs when neutrons (along with neutrinos) are produced from the protons which capture "heavy" electrons. Surface electron masses are shifted upwards by localized condensed matter electromagnetic fields. Condensed matter quantum electrodynamic processes may also shift the densities of final states allowing an appreciable production of extremely low momentum neutrons which are thereby eciently absorbed by nearby nuclei. No Coulomb barriers exist for the weak interaction neutron production or other resulting catalytic processes. I am surprised they managed to sneak this into the archive. I predicted will soon be yanked out. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 17:54:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j450sGKM005086; Wed, 4 May 2005 17:54:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j450sDA4005040; Wed, 4 May 2005 17:54:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:54:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050505005403.77095.qmail web42103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:54:03 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: How would you calculate KE To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > Please stop cross-posting to Vortex and other > groups. OK. > Just measure x0, x1, t0, and t1, plug them in, and > you get v0. Then > to find v1, > > v1 = v0 + a*Dt Hi Stephen, I'm using Final Velocity = average velocity + g * transit time / 2. Then final KE = 1/2m * Final Velocity^2 You happy with that? Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 18:48:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j451mHKM027924; Wed, 4 May 2005 18:48:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j451mF33027914; Wed, 4 May 2005 18:48:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 18:48:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Windom & Larsen paper Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 21:50:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504174932.0324f210 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Jed, you write: >I am surprised they managed to sneak this into the archive. I predicted >will soon be yanked out. It certainly will if you post the cached URL. Here's the link with some staying power. http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0505026 With 25 documents already filed, Widom will not be so easy to bump. I do smell a good story for Steve K. in this though *grin* K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 5:53 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Windom & Larsen paper David Nagel thinks this paper may be germane to CF, for obvious reasons: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf Ultra Low Momentum Neutron Catalyzed Nuclear Reactions on Metallic Hydride Surfaces A. Widom, L. Larsen Lattice Energy LLC, 175 North Harbor Drive, Chicago IL 60601 ABSTRACT Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions in metallic hydride system surfaces are discussed. Weak interaction catalysis initially occurs when neutrons (along with neutrinos) are produced from the protons which capture "heavy" electrons. Surface electron masses are shifted upwards by localized condensed matter electromagnetic fields. Condensed matter quantum electrodynamic processes may also shift the densities of final states allowing an appreciable production of extremely low momentum neutrons which are thereby eciently absorbed by nearby nuclei. No Coulomb barriers exist for the weak interaction neutron production or other resulting catalytic processes. I am surprised they managed to sneak this into the archive. I predicted will soon be yanked out. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 18:59:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j451wkKM031775; Wed, 4 May 2005 18:58:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j451wfd4031742; Wed, 4 May 2005 18:58:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 18:58:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42797DD9.6050507 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:58:49 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How would you calculate KE References: <20050505005403.77095.qmail web42103.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050505005403.77095.qmail web42103.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prometheus Effect wrote: >--- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > >>Just measure x0, x1, t0, and t1, plug them in, and >>you get v0. Then >>to find v1, >> >>v1 = v0 + a*Dt >> >> > >Hi Stephen, > >I'm using Final Velocity = average velocity + g * >transit time / 2. Then final KE = 1/2m * Final >Velocity^2 > >You happy with that? > > Of course -- plain ol' Newtonian mechanics. Obviously the KE is actually a little higher than that if the horizontal velocity is nonzero, but you can measure that separately and use the net velocity to compute the KE. The vertical velocity measurement isn't affected by it. If I understand what you're doing, though, you've only got half the story here. You also need to measure, precisely, the energy given up by the object (steel ball? whatever) as it goes up the ramp, through the area of strongest field, and passes out the exit to the drop point. How fast is it moving _at_ _the_ _drop_ _point_? From bits and pieces you've posted it sounds like it's essentially stationary there. So, assuming the object starts with enough KE to get it up the ramp, the actual energy it got from the magnets must net out to something very small -- just the horizontal component of the velocity, in fact. Regardless of the details, you're dealing with tricky measurements that must be done precisely and which won't convince anyone of anything anyway unless you close the loop. (Am I repeating myself?) Amusingly, the inventor of the Finsrud device, mentioned elsewhere in a related thread on Vortex, has his curriculum vitae on the Finsrud website. Among other things, he's an amateur magician. :-) If you sit down at a poker table and see the dealer using the mechanic's grip, you are advised to get up again. (Of course, he may be honest; maybe he just likes to hold the cards that way.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 19:00:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4520JKM032608; Wed, 4 May 2005 19:00:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4520GYT032585; Wed, 4 May 2005 19:00:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:00:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050505020007.50230.qmail web42102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:00:07 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Exactly right. What is it strange is that many of > the people making these claims, including some well > educated ones, do not seem to realize this. Hi Jed, So can I ship you a SMOT and the measurement system so you can prove the data I'm seeing is not real and your world is still secure ;-)? Basically the measurement system data shows: 1) The ball moves from a place of higher flux density to a place of lower flux density powered by magnets and gravity. 2) The ball has more final KE (at the place with less flux density) than it had initial PE (at the place of higher flux density). Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 19:13:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j452D3KM006752; Wed, 4 May 2005 19:13:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j452Cv3E006715; Wed, 4 May 2005 19:12:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:12:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050505021245.99426.qmail web42105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:12:45 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: How would you calculate KE To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > Obviously the KE is actually a little higher than > that if the horizontal velocity is nonzero, There is almost no horizontal ball velocity on exit but the ball does have some rotational KE which I don't attempt to measure. To get a good exit all the ramp gained KE is given back to punch through the inline dragback at the end of the arrays to reach the "Blue Hole" and exit. A lot of the early stuff was in trying to hang onto ramp gained KE but that was a dead end and not the way to go. The PE site has a high resolution 1 second per frame AVI which shows this in good detail. Yahoo will not allow me to link it here. You must join the PE group to view the video or point me to a site where I can upload it for public viewing. > If I understand what you're doing, though, you've > only got half the story here. You also need to > measure, precisely, the energy given up by > the object (steel ball? whatever) as it goes up the > ramp It starts with no KE. Have a look at the video above. > Among other things, he's an amateur magician. :-) I did mention the spring in the central column? > If you sit down at a poker table and see the dealer > using the mechanic's grip, you are advised to get > up again. (Of course, he may be honest; > maybe he just likes to hold the cards that way.) I prefer classic BlackJack. Thanks for the comments, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 19:33:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j452XFKM013832; Wed, 4 May 2005 19:33:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j452XD5n013811; Wed, 4 May 2005 19:33:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:33:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427985EA.7050303 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 22:33:14 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > [ ... ] > > Mills is much, much better and far more credible than people like the > Methernitha crowd, Greg Watson, or for that matter Correa. But he > still has a wide credibility gap, and he still has not made a real > effort to convince people. The last thing he told me, years ago, is > that he does not want to convince people, and that he likes things the > way they are. [ ... ] > > Many years ago Mills supposedly had energy producing devices which > would have convinced any reasonable engineer, such as the devices he > and Thermacore developed, described by Donald Ernst in 1992. Assuming > those claims were not a horrible mistake, or for some reason they > could not be replicated, Mills could have easily used those devices to > convince the entire world that his claims are valid. I do not know > what to make of the fact that he failed to do that. I am forced to > conclude that: > > 1. Either the claims fell through for some reason I never heard about, or > > 2. Mills is stark-staring crazy, like most other people in over-unity > energy biz. Most perpetual motion machine salesmen are not crazy. Why credit Mills with less sanity than them? > I have heard many times that it is actually: > > 3. Mills is working on some ultra clever secret business scheme. > > But I do not believe this, because I simply cannot imagine any > business strategy... It's not so hard, really, to imagine that there's a sensible strategy here. Mills has investors, right? Those are people who've given him money for this. So he _is_ getting funds for it. He has lots of interesting results but if he has anything absolutely airtight in the way of a public demonstration of something really new I must have overlooked mention of it. He has a theory which requires throwing out QM (well tested, used every day) and starting over with a clean slate. He has secrets which (he says) are revolutionary but which still aren't quite ready yet. He has produced mysterious chemicals which should be revolutionary but which somehow don't seem to have revolutionized anything, or even gotten any mention anywhere outside of Vortex. And he's been in this state for how many years? Money in, nothing out. With a theory that is very very hard to swallow, which is needed to explain results that aren't ever quite visible just yet. Is it so hard to think of a fourth possibility? Is the emporer really wearing anything at all? Hmmm. CF has reports of anomalous results from labs scattered all over the world, and it has hints of a plausible theory to give us a glimmer of what might be going on. BLP has tantalizing results reported by _one_ lab and an outlandish theory to explain these results which nobody else has ever achieved AFAIK. (Sorry, I'm crabby tonight.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 20:34:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j453Y1KM001188; Wed, 4 May 2005 20:34:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j453XxCR001170; Wed, 4 May 2005 20:33:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:33:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: More Mills stuff ( are you reading Mike C? ) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:36:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <427985EA.7050303 pobox.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <0rX6QD.A.KS.mQZeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Stephen, You write: >He has lots of interesting results but if he has anything absolutely >airtight in the way of a public demonstration of something really new I >must have overlooked mention of it. This ain't academia. You gots to pay to play. >He has a theory which requires throwing out QM (well tested, used every >day) and starting over with a clean slate. Which had the interesting side effect of allowing US6024935 to grant while the CF folks were stymied. >He has produced mysterious chemicals which should be revolutionary but >which somehow don't seem to have revolutionized anything, or even gotten >any mention anywhere outside of Vortex. Although when it came down to it, the patent office finally did start in on him. Another story for Steve K, find out more about what happened to this. US20030129117 Synthesis and characterization of a highly stable amorphous silicon hydride as the product of a catalytic hydrogen plasma reaction I think this is the right app, right Mike C.??? The one that got pulled _the day_ before it granted? By direct interference at the patent office. I might be wrong about the #, but the story is a corker. >(Sorry, I'm crabby tonight.) Yeah, even more than me. Hey, Randy has his problems but one has to recognize that there is something here. Look more closely Stephen, this is a long story and not yet finished. BTW, here's what Randys cooking. US20050080260 Preparation of prodrugs for selective drug delivery US20040247522 Hydrogen power, plasma, and reactor for lasing, and power conversion US20040118348 Microwave power cell, chemical reactor, and power converter US20040095705 Plasma-to-electric power conversion US20040027127 4 dimensinal magnetic resonance imaging US20030228644 Pro drugs for selective drug delivery US20030129117 Synthesis and characterization of a highly stable amorphous silicon hydride as the product of a catalytic hydrogen plasma reaction US20020079440 Apparatus and method for providing an antigravitational force US20020051751 Pharmaceuticals and apparatus providing diagnosis and selective tissue necrosis And dishes served, US6555663 Prodrugs for selective drug delivery US6477398 Resonant magnetic susceptibility imaging (ReMSI) US6224848 Pharmaceuticals providing diagnosis and selective tissue necrosis using Mossbauer absorber atom US6024935 Lower-energy hydrogen methods and structures US5773592 Pro drugs for selective drug delivery US5428163 Prodrugs for selective drug delivery US5221518 DNA sequencing apparatus US5073858 Magnetic susceptibility imaging (MSI) US5064754 Genomic sequencing method US4969469 Paramagnetic dynamo electromotive force detector and imaging system incorporating same US4815448 Mossbauer cancer therapy US4815447 Mossbauer cancer therapy K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 20:41:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j453f7KM004016; Wed, 4 May 2005 20:41:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j453f2lB003987; Wed, 4 May 2005 20:41:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:41:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050505034055.38584.qmail web42104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:40:55 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Ramp climb and drop at 1 frame / sec To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <3eP4h.A.O-.OXZeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Guys, Here is a ramp climb and drop at 1 frame / sec. http://www.myfilehut.com/userfiles/prometheus_effect/ClimbandDropFramebyFrame.avi Note the ball has no starting KE and no horizontal KE on the vertical exit. The rotation about the exit point does induce some rotational KE but I don't measure it. Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 20:42:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j453gIKM004508; Wed, 4 May 2005 20:42:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j453gFGH004489; Wed, 4 May 2005 20:42:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:42:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Robert Carroll Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:44:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Mark, you write: >At least one young scientist believes he was more correct than most will >allow. You ought to let the poor boy out of the basement for some air, he must have moss growing between his toes at this point. It would probably help you more than hurt. Just a thought *smile* K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 21:00:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45400KM010408; Wed, 4 May 2005 21:00:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j453xwUQ010391; Wed, 4 May 2005 20:59:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:59:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pykrete was RE: BLP implementation path Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:00:19 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505050000.19070.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tuesday 03 May 2005 12:09, Keith Nagel wrote: > Google "Pykrete" and you'll find a wealth of information > about this odd bit of history. > > http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7/floatingisland.php > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:52 AM > To: vortex-L eskimo.com > Subject: Re: BLP implementation path > > Standing Bear wrote: > >Conversely, the British once fully funded studies on a > >battleship made of ice, purely to mollify a fearful public during the > > depths of World War II. > > I believe that was an aircraft carrier made of ice mixed with sawdust and > or ground-up newspaper. It was to be deployed in the far north Atlantic to > cover the "air gap" where German U-boats could operate without being > intercepted by long-range British aircraft. It would not be a highly mobile > aircraft carrier in the usual sense, but rather a large man-made island > that could be towed to any location and anchored. The craft would have had > internal freezers to replenish the ice as it melted. Ice mixed with sawdust > is incredibly tough material. It could easily withstand a German torpedo > strike. > > It was actually a sensible proposal, but it was no longer needed after the > US began launching small "jeep" aircraft carriers made from converted > freighters that carried a couple dozen aircraft. (The British called them > "Woolworth" carriers.) > > The proposal was not put forth to mollify the public. It was top secret. It > was pursued because it appealed to Winston Churchill. > > - Jed It was too put forth to mollify the public. People wanted a weapon that magically slew the 'enemy'. One Brit idea was the 'solid searchlight'. You turned your 'light' on, shined it on a plane that you hoped was not yours; then you just 'pushed a button to solidify the beam and wanged it into the ground'. When asked how this solidification was to be done, the simple answer came as if by reflex: "Simple if the desire is there to succeed in the research!".... And so it was with the Habbakuk (original mis-spelling). Only in this case the 'public' was influential military executives desparate for winning ideas in the face of the German juggernaut that was sinking supply ships much too quickly for the good of the morale of the population. The Admiralty kept it secret to be sure, but only to spare themselves embarrassment in case of yet another fiasco. I have found that early stories on the subject tend to give more facts and preserve the mood surrounding the story better. Hindsight being 20/20 tends to idealize the victors and blur or obscure...or even omit...facts. A good website giving the mood of the public on the street level is: http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:UJYU2whR_IIJ:www.swalks.com/hab.pdf +habbakuk+%2Bice+%2Bship&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 The Admiralty gave the research over to the supervision of the Americans and Canadians, who built a model of it secretly on Lake Patricia in Northern Alberta in Canada. Another website continues: http://jwgibbs.cchem.berkeley.edu/CFGoodeve/habakkuk.html And this reads in part:...." --------------_______________________________________________---------------------- The Ice Ship Fiasco SIR CHARLES GOODEVE, F.R.S. ONCE during the war an inventor brought forward the novel idea of a searchlight that would itself bring down any aircraft caught in its beam. The idea was to provide the searchlight with a button which when pressed would solidify the beam. By rapidly turning the searchlight downwards, one could 'wang' the aircraft on the ground. The incidental details as to how to solidify the beam were, according to the inventor, "merely matters of research and development easily solvable by anyone who really believed in the idea". Many inventions of varying degrees of absurdity, as well as some useful ones were put forward during the war, but none produced a dislocation of the Allied effort to a fraction of the extent achieved by 'Habakkuk', a proposal put forward by Geoffrey Pyke. He himself named this grandiose scheme after the prophet who said: "I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you." New 'Weapon' Wars had for long been fought with steel and explosives, and more recently with aluminium and electrons. To these was now to be added a new element of war, ICE. "Ice," it was pointed out, "was plentiful and didn't sink. Let us build large unsinkable aircraft carriers of ice and thus provide air cover for an attack on a remote and unprotected part of France. Steel limits the size of our carriers to tens of thousands of tons; with ice we can throw off our shackles and build carriers of millions of tons each. "Ice is plentiful! Ice is unsinkable! Ice is hard! The enemy will never suspect it! Ice will win the war!" At first the scientists and engineers working on their radar, their jet-propulsion, their tank-landing craft and the thousand and one other developments which were to be put in the hands of our fighting men, laughed. Ice may be hard, but it had no strength. Their laughter turned to alarm when they learned of the long-haired scientists, the admirals and generals who had been swayed by the magnetic personality of the inventor. Here was no ordinary man; this was no ordinary way to win a war. One scientist showed that the wave-functions of the hydrogen atoms in ice bore a close relation to those in concrete, and therefore it should be possible to make ice as strong as concrete (forgetting, of course, that concrete has little strength other than that of its steel reinforcement). An engineer who had already built an air-raid shelter offered to build the first Habakkuk. Pyke put it to Lord Mountbatten, Chief of Combined Operations, on whose staff he Was; Mountbatten passed it to the Chiefs of Staff who passed it to the War Cabinet, the War Cabinet to Churchill. Winston, an inventor of no mean repute himself, wrote: "Let us cut a large chunk of ice from the Arctic ice-cap and tow it down past Cornwall, fly on our aircraft, and tow it to the, point of attack." Pyke's followers were triumphant. "Churchill approves! The war will be won by ice! All that is left are merely matters of research and development easily solvable by anyone who really believes." Orders flew thick and fast, committees were set up. The voices of reason were shouted down by cries of "Obstruction". These in control of important war programmes had the Hobson's Choice of either fighting this absurdity or of ignoring it as far as possible, the objective in either case being to confine the dislocation of effort. This Fantasy Their success was indifferent. At one stage they thought it would be a good idea to send the whole party to Canada, where the winter might cool its ardour. The Canadians were sensible people; they would get this monstrous fantasy under control. But ahead of the team went this message: "This was Canada's opportunity to play a part in history!" Far up in the Rocky Mountains a lake was chosen. In great secrecy, a camp was built and an experimental model was constructed. Hundreds of skilled designers were put to work all over the country designing refrigerating plant, remotely operated electric propulsion motors, etc., they knew not for what. Came the spring, and with it one conclusion from the trials; ice melts. Once again the voices of reason could be heard. "Ice has no strength, ice melts, ice is cold, the steel required to hold the ice together, to build the refrigerating plant, the propulsion machinery was far more than would be required to build conventional aircraft carriers of much more effective fighting power. "Conventional?" you say. Have you no imagination? Ice is the new element of war. All would have been well if it hadn't happened that at this moment one of the many parties detailed off for research into the problems of Habakkuk discovered that ice could be given some strength by incorporating a large amount of paper-making pulp in the water before freezing. ---- graphic is here on the website ---- This cut-away section shows the design which was proposed for "Habakkuk", the iceberg aircraft carrier which was intended to replace aircraft carriers of the size of H.M.S. Illustrious. Just Six Knots The frozen block did not yield easily to the hatchet, and a bullet fired at it went in so smoothly that the ice reformed behind it. The followers were elated and called this material Pykrete in honour of their leader. ""Pykrete," they said, "is not only unsinkable, but it is self-healing against bullets, bombs and torpedoes! Never mind if we have to reduce all the allied newspapers to letter size. We've proved that research will solve all our problems if the obstructors can only be got out of the way." Designs and plans for construction were rushed ahead. Each Habakkuk required 40,000 tons of cork insulation, some thousands of miles of steel tubing for brine circulation and reinforcement, four power stations, and endless additional complications, especially in the building stage, even before you started making it into an aircraft carrier. At that, the maximum Speed would only be six knots. (By leaving the ice out and converting the tubing to ship's plates the whole would have been able to go four times as fast.) . But there was one obstacle that even research and faith could not overcome.. Great Britain hadn't the resources to build even one Habakkuk. However, armed with blocks of Pykrete, a revolver and plenty of rounds of ammunition, and wave-mechanical equations of hydrogen atoms, the team descended on the Quebec Conference, held to decide on the plan of attack on the European continent. Fortunately, a decision was made not to wait for Habakkuk, but to rely on the daring, but sound, scheme which became known as the Mulberry Harbour. Nevertheless, this conference of the heads of the three great States, U.K., U.S.A. and Canada, together with their Chiefs of Staff, decided that a Habakkuk should be built under the supervision of an Anglo-American-Canadian committee with a secretariat in the U.S. Navy offices in Washington. But at such high altitudes came a new discovery. Not only does ice melt, but it evaporates! and so did Habakkuk. The great three-power committee never was convened. The followers became dispersed or else cooked in the heat of Washington. ________________________________________________________________ This is the article that I read long ago while in college and remembered when writing this letter. How fortunate that through the 'magic' of the internet I was again able to find it. Winston did indeed want it, but the impetus came from others and was infectuous among desparate men. Pykrete was indeed tough, and the admixture was not sawdust, but papermaking pulp. Its major claim to fame was that it appeared self healing when struck by projectiles. It also took a while to melt. Another website stated that the model that was built on Lake Patricia took 'until the end of the next summer' to melt after the project was quietly abandoned. As noted by the next website: http://johnpenrod.typepad.com/general/science/ Sensible elements in all the allied admiralties did fight the idea that was only stopped by the lack of resources to built it, and by more practical alternatives. Standing Bear and as Paul Harvey used to say...."And Now you know the Rest of the Story!.. Good Day!" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 22:13:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j455D3KM002340; Wed, 4 May 2005 22:13:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j455Cqne002190; Wed, 4 May 2005 22:12:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 22:12:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 15:12:46 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <427934C6.6000809@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <427934C6.6000809 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j455ClKM002127 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 04 May 2005 16:47:02 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Good point. It would have to be a point source. Even a dipole has >directionality. True, but you would have to be very lucky to point it's blind spot right at the source. > >Harry Veeder wrote: > >>What form would a non-directional antenna have? >> >>Harry [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 4 23:21:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j456LGKM026704; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:21:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j456LEdQ026691; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:21:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:21:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.27] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Robert Carroll Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 23:21:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2005 06:21:27.0866 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB96B1A0:01C5513A] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keith, His name is Keith Trenton. Believe me, no moss would dare grow anywhere near him. At some point in the future he may find his way back into the Carroll work with its many implications, but it would require a pretty hefty budget. We tried to find government funding to explore some of the possibilities some years back, but as with LENR, there was nobody brave enough to sign off on a project so far from mainstream physics. Trenton suggested a few practical implications in fields such as medicine - a pion knife would be far better than a gamma knife for certain brain operations, as one example. Carroll's idea for a pion drive, he believes, if translated into hardware, might eventually make interstellar space craft practical. Mark >From: "Keith Nagel" >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: RE: Robert Carroll >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:44:44 -0400 > >Hey Mark, > >you write: > >At least one young scientist believes he was more correct than most will > >allow. > >You ought to let the poor boy out of the basement for some air, he >must have moss growing between his toes at this point. > >It would probably help you more than hurt. Just a thought *smile* > >K. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 00:03:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4572pKM010146; Thu, 5 May 2005 00:02:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4572lJZ010076; Thu, 5 May 2005 00:02:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:02:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:03:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Finsrud device Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > > Public wrote: >> > > >> Have you seen this?: > > >> PM of the first kind using static magnets goes down to the bedrock of > > all physics for the last couple centuries and dynamites it. >> Yawn, While a PM machine would be significant, I fail to see where it would produce much energy, enough to charge a battery perhaps, but rock the bedrock of physics, naw. Now factional hydrogen, OTHO, that's got potential! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 3 19:56:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j442toHv012698; Tue, 3 May 2005 19:55:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j442tm8k012669; Tue, 3 May 2005 19:55:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 19:55:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050504025537.55193.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:55:37 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: How would you calculate KE To: Vortex , OU Builders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: Guys, How would you calculate the final KE of a vertically falling ball assuming you know the mass of the ball, g and you could accurately measure the transit time of the last say 25mm of the vertical drop? Then, assuming you knew the total drop distance, would not a lower measured KE (than PE theory would predict) indicate the amount of effective reduction in the acceleration of gravity due to magnetic dragback? Thanks in advance, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 02:06:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4595dbG019387; Thu, 5 May 2005 02:05:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4595Y5C019352; Thu, 5 May 2005 02:05:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:05:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:05:30 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The SMOT game In-Reply-To: <20050501073128.76269.qmail web42104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050501073128.76269.qmail web42104.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 1 May 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > I don't have the documentation you require but the event did occur. If I > can show you the SMOT (same design as in 1997) is OU, then why can't you > believe I did what I claimed back then? It's because you're controlling information, playing some sort of "chess game." You're avoiding certain topics: topics that center on possible lies of yours, and topics that would lead any of us to verifying any of your 1997 statements. This looks just like "coverup." It's not just the missing documentation, that's dishonest. You claimed to have more than just documentation. Have you also "forgotten" the names of all the friends and associates who you said were eyewitnesses to the closed-loop SMOT operation? You didn't give us their contact info in 1997 and you aren't instantly supplying even one name now. This speaks volumes. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 02:20:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j459JxbG026577; Thu, 5 May 2005 02:20:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j459JsY4026540; Thu, 5 May 2005 02:19:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:19:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:19:49 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <-clsiB.A.jeG.5UeeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 1 May 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > If I can show you the SMOT (same design as in 1997) is OU, then why > can't you believe I did what I claimed back then? On second thought, I no longer play this kind of "game." You're free to play the persecuted martyr card instead. You're banned from vortex-L and freenrg-L as of right now. Why? Figure it out. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 02:40:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j459e4bG003603; Thu, 5 May 2005 02:40:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j459e3ob003581; Thu, 5 May 2005 02:40:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:40:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:34:22 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Finsrud device In-Reply-To: <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Message-ID: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Mike Carrell wrote: > This is actually not new; the ball has been happily rolling around for > years, to my knowledge. It is on display in a public museum. Someone who first posted the Finsrud articles mentioned that the machine wears out and must be taken down for adjustments. Back in 1988 we had an intentionally fake PM machine at the Museum of Science in Boston, one built by David Jones of "Dadaelus" fame. It spun at around 1RPM for 8-11 months on four hidden D-cells. It was exhibited as a "guess how it really works" contest. If someone built a fake "Finsrud device," its hidden batteries could keep it going for weeks, maybe even months before the machine "wore out" and needed to be returned to the owner for "adjustments." If it's a real OU device, then running it in a museum is a good first step, and the need for adjustments might be expected. Next step is to publish all details, or better yet, to teach others how to build one. But if it's fake, then running it in a museum is a good way to maximize the hoax, and there's even no need to have the museum in on the tric, or even to fully hide the periodic battery replacement. Just excuse it as "need for adjustments." (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 05:34:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45CYRbG007633; Thu, 5 May 2005 05:34:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45CYPBZ007584; Thu, 5 May 2005 05:34:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 05:34:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Public" To: Subject: RE: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 04:34:11 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c55155$98f1f170$0200a8c0 Craig> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <427985EA.7050303 pobox.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > ... BLP has tantalizing results reported > by _one_ > lab and an outlandish theory to explain these results which > nobody else > has ever achieved AFAIK. I wrote to the team at Penn State, several years ago, who had replicated one of Mill's excess heat experiments under contract. They replied that they were under an agreement not to comment on the experiment, but they did make it clear that they were astonished at the result. Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 06:55:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45Dt1bG017765; Thu, 5 May 2005 06:55:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45Dswkn017738; Thu, 5 May 2005 06:54:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 06:54:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <31f808ae-db8d-457f-afd8-15afe99f4f42> Message-ID: <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:54:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > > > > > > Ditto claims by Mills and Correa. As far as I know, the only anomalous > > > energy claim that has claimed any scientific basis in conventional theory > > > is cold fusion. Of course many people disagree, but Hagelstein and others > > > believe it can be explained with textbook physics. > > > >Jed's brush is too wide. Mills does not claim 'anomalous energy' . . . > > I classify both cold fusion and the Mills claims as "anomalous" energy. > "Anomalous" is not synonymous with "unbelievable" -- it just means there is > no explanation. Mills, unlike CF, does not have a textbook physics > explanation. He proposes to rewrite the textbooks. That does not mean he is > wrong, but it does mean he must be cognizant of the fact that most > scientists will find his claims very difficult to swallow. I am sure he > knows that! CQM is audacious. There is no "accepted" explanation for LENR, despite Haglestein's efforts. So far as I know, it does not have predictive value, in the sense of what to do next to get energy yield. Mills is not the first to propose a 'sub-quantum' state for the hydrogen atom, nor is he the first to observe exothermic reactions between hydrogen and ionized argon. However, he is the first to formulate a specification for a catalytic reaction to induce the sub-quantum state, and to conduct experiments to demonstrate substantial energy yield, which predicitons have been verified by other investigator. Flowing from his theory are simple equations which yield significant parameters of the first 20 elements of the periodic table with high precision, which are laid out in spreadsheets anyone can examine. > > Mills is much, much better and far more credible than people like the > Methernitha crowd, Greg Watson, or for that matter Correa. But he still has > a wide credibility gap, and he still has not made a real effort to convince > people. The last thing he told me, years ago, is that he does not want to > convince people, and that he likes things the way they are. (That was also > the last thing I heard from the late James Reding while he was diligently > shredding Patterson's prospects. Several CF researchers have also told me > they like being big fish in a small pond.) Mills has pursued his research, systematically posting reports on his website for all to see, as well as updating his book, to be downloaded for free. The only people he has needed to convince are those who have funded him to the tune of some $50 million, and the executives of corporations doing due diligence toward serious development pratnerships. Public acclaim is irrelevant at the moment. Reding's fatal error was rejecting the buyout offer by Motorola, who has the deep pockets to pursue the technology, and perhaps the discipline to do process control, which apparently Patterson lacked. > > Many years ago Mills supposedly had energy producing devices which would > have convinced any reasonable engineer, such as the devices he and > Thermacore developed, described by Donald Ernst in 1992. Assuming those > claims were not a horrible mistake, or for some reason they could not be > replicated, Mills could have easily used those devices to convince the > entire world that his claims are valid. I do not know what to make of the > fact that he failed to do that. I am forced to conclude that: He did and still does. Jed is well versed in calorimetry. All he has to do is follow the thread in my earlier post on BLP future to look up the water bath calorimetry which shows an energy yield from hydrogen which is 100 X that of burning it, and that in a catalytic reaction with a noble gas! > > 1. Either the claims fell through for some reason I never heard about, or Jed was not paying close enough attention then or now. Mills abandoned electrolytic cells because he could not get a high enough energy density. His target then was utility boilers. The electrolytic cell has resurfaced as a source of hydrogen for his proposed automotive hydrogen filling station. The gas phase reactions have demosntrated high energy density, but scaling up to industrial levels takes lots of money and other skills. Same for LENR, in which *really active* cells are irreproduceable accidents. BLP cells just sit there and cook as long as you want. > > 2. Mills is stark-staring crazy, like most other people in over-unity > energy biz. He has never claimed to be in the 'over-unity' energy business. His posture is that of a responsible scientist-businessman courting major industrial partners in the development of energy resources. > > I have heard many times that it is actually: > > 3. Mills is working on some ultra clever secret business scheme. Jed is again not paying attention, but jumping to conclusions, as the business plans have been posted on the BLP website for years and updated periodically. What is not publicized is *who* he is neogtiating with. > But I do not believe this, because I simply cannot imagine any business > strategy that would have worked better than revealing the whole thing back > in 1992, and letting events take their natural course. It is hard to > imagine any scenario that would have eventually worked out with Mills being > less than a dozen times richer than Bill Gates by now, and him being the > most famous and respected person on earth. After 14 years millions of > people would have seen the effect, and I think there is simply no question > Mills would have been given the full credit for it, and objections would > have been swept aside by now, by the force of public opinion. Jed is restating his model of how other people should act. An earlier version of the above paragraph is his "Inventors Disease" in which he castigated CF investigators for not producing simple demo cells or toys which would have unleashed a flood ofn entreprenural development to the betterment of all. There is a phase of the development of a technology when this is true and will happen. But Nature will have her own way, and the CF field still has not produced *really active* cells. Mills is actually much closer to that phase now. There hasn't been anything "hidden" since the BLP website went up years ago, anymore than there is anything "hidden" since lenr-canr.org went up. BLP reactors are not tabletop toys. I have heard Mills wish that more would duplicate his work; it's not that hard for a comeptent investigator, or even an amateur. Jeff Fink has invested significant time, money and effort in replicating the Correa PAGD effect. I have suggested to him that he might try a BLP reactor. You can start by tearing up a microwave oven and doing some plumbing. You will need a simple spectroscope to see the hydrogen alpha line broadening, which is a signature of the BLP reaction. There is a lot of useful empirical work to be done in scaling up the reaction. Within months there may be some announcement of a partnership between BLP and X, and possibly an IPO which will generate publicity to the effect that there is something 'real'. Then I would expect a flurry of experimentation inthe manner Jed applauds. It is not that he is wrong, at all, is is that this appears at a certain phase. For example, the rush of development of electrical gnerators and motors did not happen until after Faraday's experiments, and radio after Hertz's experiments. Even then the invetion of real radio was done by Tesla, who was much more than a tinkerer, and preceded Marconi, who copied aspects of his work. Tesla was recognized by the USPTO as the inventor of radio by issuance of a patent in 1936, after years of debate. > > > >. . . there is a measureable fuel consumption, many documentated and > >detailed experiments, and confirmation by other observers. > > Oh come now. Yes, we all agree that Mills has done some interesting > experiments, but the confirmations by other observers hardly compares to > the confirmations available for CF. Confirmation is confirmation. Quantity is not of the essence. > Most of the confirming evidence he > cited years ago was only distantly related to his claims. Again, Jed was not paying close attention, both to 'claims' and to 'evidence'. All this would be > forgivable -- indeed it would be the only viable path forward -- if Mills > had not held in his hands devices that would have convinced millions of > engineers worldwide back in 1992. If you can convince engineers you do not > need to worry what the physicists think. You can ignore them along with the > patent office, Scientific American, and the rest of the peanut gallery. > Engineers far outnumber physicists, and they have much greater access to > capital and the real-world levers of power. Jed has done quite well as an entrepreneur in the tidy world of programming, which was made tidy by the efforts of hundreds, if not thousands of engineers who created that tidy world by doing battle with Nature in creating reliable electronic components, including microcircuits. I'm an engineer who has seen up close the pain to product development, the continuing agony of mass production of color picture tubes, and have come to understand the chasm which separates the R&D lab and the production floor. What Mills had produced in the lab are well done demonstrations of effects. The road from there to useful devices will take lots of money. Engineers have to be convinced of the reality of the effects by doing their own experiments, and need confidence that the BLP team can safely guide them in product development. From all evidence, I don't think the Jed really has any idea of all that is entailed, although I respect him for what he has accomplished. >From my persepective from a once-world class corporation, Mills has been making all the right moves, but success is not guaranteed until it happens. Jed's perspective is different. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 07:21:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45EKvbG002626; Thu, 5 May 2005 07:20:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45EKsrc002593; Thu, 5 May 2005 07:20:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:20:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505101553.032599b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:20:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Pykrete was RE: BLP implementation path In-Reply-To: <200505050000.19070.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <200505050000.19070.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >It was too put forth to mollify the public. People wanted a weapon that >magically slew the 'enemy'. Every account that I have read says it was secret. If you can point to some other account saying it was public, please list it. >One Brit idea was the 'solid searchlight'. You >turned your 'light' on, shined it on a plane that you hoped was not yours; >then you just 'pushed a button to solidify the beam and wanged it into the >ground'. I do not see how you can compare that to the scheme to build Pykrete vessels. That is pure nonsense, without a shred of scientific validity, whereas no engineer or scientist I know of has ever denied that Pykrete is remarkably strong and that giant vessels could have been constructed with it, and they could not have been sunk with U-boat attacks. In the end, it was not a practical or cost-effective, but on the other hand it was not a crack-pot notion, or impossible. Winston Churchill was no fool. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 07:49:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45EnSbG016098; Thu, 5 May 2005 07:49:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45EnQBj016067; Thu, 5 May 2005 07:49:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:49:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.1.20060505050707.037d2b30 pop3.newnet.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 05:09:12 +0100 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" From: "Stephen R. Lawrence" Subject: re: finsrud device Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_SFWMB.A.86D.2JjeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I think if I were concealing anything, I'd put 3 solenoids in the base to inject momentum into the swinging pendulums at the relevant rate, powered by similarly concealed battery. From: Stephen R. Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 09:45:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45GjdbG004852; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:45:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45GjZPq004800; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:45:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:45:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:45:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed about Mills In-Reply-To: <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Jed was not paying close enough attention then or now. Mills abandoned >electrolytic cells because he could not get a high enough energy density. I realize that is what he said. >His target then was utility boilers. That "target" is insanity squared. It reminds of the old Bob Newhart routine where a promoter is talking to the Wright brothers on December 18, 1903. He asks how many passengers can fly on the airplane, and "does it have a john?" He tells them he sees no commercial possibilities for it. Columbus discovered America in 1492. By 1505 there was a huge trans-Atlantic trade. As one person put it "the great Atlantic has become a Spanish Lake." If Mills had been Columbus he would have kept it the discovery secret, and in 1505 he would still be negotiating the property rights to Hispaniola. >Jed has done quite well as an entrepreneur in the tidy world of programming, >which was made tidy by the efforts of hundreds, if not thousands of >engineers who created that tidy world by doing battle with Nature in >creating reliable electronic components, including microcircuits. I'm an >engineer who has seen up close the pain to product development, the >continuing agony of mass production of color picture tubes . . . Oh come now Mike. Where were we 12 years after the invention of the transistor, in 1960? Where were integrated circuits in 1971, 12 years after Texas Instruments first developed them? Was the 1992 Mills device really that much harder to make then the first transistors? The first transistor and the first integrated circuit were no more practical than the 1992 cells. If he had done a proper demonstration and invited experts from all over, by now he would be the leader of the largest industry on earth. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 09:55:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45Gt1bG008375; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:55:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45Gssww008315; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:54:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:54:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Odd Electrostatic Phenomenon X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050505165440.345AF299D7 xprdmailfe21.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A It is well known that a high voltage AC corona source will effectively discharge practically all electrostatic charges from an insulator. Commercial devices based on this principle are used to remove the static charges from plastic films as they are wound through machinery. In addition to such devices, I also use a small hand-held Tesla coil to discharge individual sheets of plastic. If you hold up a piece of plastic carrying an electrostatic charge and kind of wave the tip of the Tesla coil at it, the residual charge on the plastic is immeasurably low. Conversely, and this is what I can't understand, if you place a plastic sheet on a conductive surface and wave the tip of the Tesla coil over the plastic, it acquires an intense positive charge. You can see the plastic film being heavily "sucked down" to the conductive surface as evidenced by the little tents and dimples visible as surface deformation. When you remove the plastic film from the conductive surface, the film crackles and hisses from its high voltage positive charge. Why? I had a couple of initial ideas as to why this was happening, but they proved to be wrong. I thought maybe some sort of friction or oscillating contact was going on between the plastic film and the conductor, and therefore the plastic would be charged according to its triboelectric properties. This turned out not to be the case. The charge is always positive, even with Teflon, well known for its triboelectric negative properties. I suspected my Tesla coil might have some sort of charge bias, but I tried a number of other sources and the results were the same. The plastic would always acquire a positive charge. I know that this phenomenon is of no earth-shaking importance, but I can find no reference to it anywhere. Futhermore, I can think of no explanation. Incidentally, this means that you can make VDG with the bottom roller being charged from an AC source. Anyone? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 10:14:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45HE8bG021840; Thu, 5 May 2005 10:14:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45HDpGT021695; Thu, 5 May 2005 10:13:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:13:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:14:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Koldomasov and Joule To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j45HDlbG021656 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "One of the most important achievements of the 19th century physics was the discovery that a well defined emount of mechanical work is needed to generate one unit of heat -- not less and not more. Joule demonstrated this in a well known paddle wheel experiment. Water was forced to flow through small holes in the paddles of a rotating wheel and the amount of heat was measured calorimetrically. But, at a recent conference, a Russian scientist, A.I. Koldomasov (1), described an exception from this rule. He claims to have a device in which the heat to work ratio is twenty times larger than what would be allowed according to Joulešs equivalence rule... more here http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldomasov.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 10:38:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45HcEbG003416; Thu, 5 May 2005 10:38:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45Hc8Uk003355; Thu, 5 May 2005 10:38:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:38:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505124622.03250e20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:50:17 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Finsrud device In-Reply-To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <000e01c550de$f827d910$bf41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >Yawn, While a PM machine would be significant, I fail to see where it >would produce much energy, enough to charge a battery perhaps, but rock >the bedrock of physics, naw. Oh come now! Surely you realize the laws of thermodynamics indicate that any kind of perpetual motion machine is impossible. This is one of the most fundamental tenets of physics. A perpetual motion machine would not merely "rock" physics, it would annihilate it. Perhaps this is a joke, but in any case that same "yawn" reaction on the part of wannabe PM inventors -- the "no big deal" syndrome -- gets them into trouble with scientists. They do not even understand why their claims are so difficult to believe. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 10:52:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45HqHbG015918; Thu, 5 May 2005 10:52:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45HqEDm015882; Thu, 5 May 2005 10:52:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:52:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Odd Electrostatic Phenomenon Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:54:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Mike, Try Richard Hull. His group did the first modern studies of this phenomena to my knowledge, I remember reading about them in the late Charles Yosts "Electric Spacecraft Journal" Issue #9, 1993. Here's a hint of the article from googling... http://www.pupman.com/listarchives/1996/march/msg00546.html A careful search of the pupman archives will probably produce as much info as the article, although you'll miss the wonderful pictures and experimental reports from the article. You can probably still get back issues, that one was very good for other articles as well. Charles Yost will be keenly missed. I've not time to reread the article, but from my own experimenting with discharges I've found that certain shapes of electrode tend to have a rectifying effect. Current must be drawn to ground to see the rectification. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 10:56:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45HtibG017904; Thu, 5 May 2005 10:55:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45HtR10017814; Thu, 5 May 2005 10:55:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:55:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UgU2U9VMhJxds0mKbCqsjR9BNHOG49XYzkdZje292WpQ189WP15go3gFQz/y95WJ; Message-ID: <410-2200554516554930 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re : Magnetically Aligned CF Reactions, in H2O? Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:55:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406971d8e7629e8eaa55fb23032bdd0e56350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.226 Resent-Message-ID: <07V7XD.A.9VE.O4leCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Keith. The local "Dollar Store" provided eighty-one 8 oz. Styrofoam cups (236 milliliter), two identical "insulated" drinking cups with press-on lids, and a Styrofoam picnic chest for $4.50 plus tax total. The stack of Nd ring super magnets (ten 10 mm OD x 5 mm IDwith tissue paper spacers) were placed in two telescoped Styrofoam cups pushed into the insulated drinking cups with 100 grams of distilled H2O (~10^19 deuterons/gram) for added insulation, so that the cap with the drinking hole would fit snug in place, and with 100 grams of H2O in an identical cup as a control, with both cups in the Styrofoam chest, the experiment was conducted. Results: After about three hours a digital thermometer inserted through the drinking hole read 65.1 deg F in both cups. Experiment II Thinking maybe Na+ or H+ ions would help, (hydrinos?) or 11Na-23 + H ---> 12Mg-24 + E or 11Na-23 + H ---> 10Ne-20 + 2He-4 + E 10 grams of NaHCO3 (baking soda) was mixed in 50 grams H2O well stirred and dissolved was added to the 100 grams H2O in the magnet-containing cup,, with the same mix added to the 100 grams H2O in the control. After two hours in the chest, one of the cups reads 62.6 F and the other reads 63.0 F (I have no idea which one has the magnet stack). Could be a heat of solution artifact. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Keith.
 
The local "Dollar Store" provided eighty-one  8 oz. Styrofoam cups (236 milliliter), two identical "insulated"
drinking cups with press-on lids, and a Styrofoam picnic chest for $4.50 plus tax total.
 
The stack of Nd ring super magnets (ten 10 mm OD x 5 mm IDwith tissue paper spacers) were
placed in two telescoped Styrofoam cups pushed into the insulated drinking cups with 100 grams of distilled H2O
(~10^19 deuterons/gram) for added insulation, so that the cap with the drinking hole
would fit snug in place, and with 100 grams of H2O in an identical cup as a control, with both cups
in the Styrofoam chest, the experiment was conducted.
 
Results:
 
After about three hours a digital thermometer inserted through the drinking hole
read  65.1 deg F in both cups.
 
Experiment II
 
Thinking maybe Na+ or H+ ions would help, (hydrinos?)
or 11Na-23 + H ---> 12Mg-24 + E or 11Na-23 + H ---> 10Ne-20 + 2He-4 + E
10 grams of NaHCO3 (baking soda) was mixed in 50 grams H2O well stirred and
dissolved was added to the 100 grams H2O in the magnet-containing cup,, with the same mix added to the 100
grams H2O in the control.
 
After two hours in the chest, one of the cups reads 62.6 F and the other
reads 63.0 F (I have no idea which one has the magnet stack).
 
Could be a heat of solution artifact.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 11:02:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45I1cbG022230; Thu, 5 May 2005 11:01:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45I1WO5022138; Thu, 5 May 2005 11:01:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:01:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Jed about Mills Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:01:05 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF508 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Jed about Mills Thread-Index: AcVRehWpi1ZAqVdpSMOwKOKbo3CztQAIh7cQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2005 18:01:10.0165 (UTC) FILETIME=[6AFD2450:01C5519C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j45I1LbG021931 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Are you saying that Jeff Fink ( or anybody) has replicated the PAGD claims? Has he -or anyone- obtained results that might be overunity? Thanks -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:54 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Jed wrote: > > > > > > Ditto claims by Mills and Correa. As far as I know, the only > > > anomalous energy claim that has claimed any scientific basis in > > > conventional theory > > > is cold fusion. Of course many people disagree, but Hagelstein and others > > > believe it can be explained with textbook physics. > > > >Jed's brush is too wide. Mills does not claim 'anomalous energy' . . . > > I classify both cold fusion and the Mills claims as "anomalous" energy. > "Anomalous" is not synonymous with "unbelievable" -- it just means > there is > no explanation. Mills, unlike CF, does not have a textbook physics > explanation. He proposes to rewrite the textbooks. That does not mean > he is > wrong, but it does mean he must be cognizant of the fact that most > scientists will find his claims very difficult to swallow. I am sure > he knows that! CQM is audacious. There is no "accepted" explanation for LENR, despite Haglestein's efforts. So far as I know, it does not have predictive value, in the sense of what to do next to get energy yield. Mills is not the first to propose a 'sub-quantum' state for the hydrogen atom, nor is he the first to observe exothermic reactions between hydrogen and ionized argon. However, he is the first to formulate a specification for a catalytic reaction to induce the sub-quantum state, and to conduct experiments to demonstrate substantial energy yield, which predicitons have been verified by other investigator. Flowing from his theory are simple equations which yield significant parameters of the first 20 elements of the periodic table with high precision, which are laid out in spreadsheets anyone can examine. > > Mills is much, much better and far more credible than people like the > Methernitha crowd, Greg Watson, or for that matter Correa. But he > still has > a wide credibility gap, and he still has not made a real effort to convince > people. The last thing he told me, years ago, is that he does not want > to convince people, and that he likes things the way they are. (That > was also the last thing I heard from the late James Reding while he > was diligently shredding Patterson's prospects. Several CF researchers > have also told me they like being big fish in a small pond.) Mills has pursued his research, systematically posting reports on his website for all to see, as well as updating his book, to be downloaded for free. The only people he has needed to convince are those who have funded him to the tune of some $50 million, and the executives of corporations doing due diligence toward serious development pratnerships. Public acclaim is irrelevant at the moment. Reding's fatal error was rejecting the buyout offer by Motorola, who has the deep pockets to pursue the technology, and perhaps the discipline to do process control, which apparently Patterson lacked. > > Many years ago Mills supposedly had energy producing devices which > would have convinced any reasonable engineer, such as the devices he > and Thermacore developed, described by Donald Ernst in 1992. Assuming > those claims were not a horrible mistake, or for some reason they > could not be replicated, Mills could have easily used those devices to > convince the entire world that his claims are valid. I do not know > what to make of the fact that he failed to do that. I am forced to conclude that: He did and still does. Jed is well versed in calorimetry. All he has to do is follow the thread in my earlier post on BLP future to look up the water bath calorimetry which shows an energy yield from hydrogen which is 100 X that of burning it, and that in a catalytic reaction with a noble gas! > > 1. Either the claims fell through for some reason I never heard about, > or Jed was not paying close enough attention then or now. Mills abandoned electrolytic cells because he could not get a high enough energy density. His target then was utility boilers. The electrolytic cell has resurfaced as a source of hydrogen for his proposed automotive hydrogen filling station. The gas phase reactions have demosntrated high energy density, but scaling up to industrial levels takes lots of money and other skills. Same for LENR, in which *really active* cells are irreproduceable accidents. BLP cells just sit there and cook as long as you want. > > 2. Mills is stark-staring crazy, like most other people in over-unity > energy biz. He has never claimed to be in the 'over-unity' energy business. His posture is that of a responsible scientist-businessman courting major industrial partners in the development of energy resources. > > I have heard many times that it is actually: > > 3. Mills is working on some ultra clever secret business scheme. Jed is again not paying attention, but jumping to conclusions, as the business plans have been posted on the BLP website for years and updated periodically. What is not publicized is *who* he is neogtiating with. > But I do not believe this, because I simply cannot imagine any > business strategy that would have worked better than revealing the > whole thing back in 1992, and letting events take their natural > course. It is hard to imagine any scenario that would have eventually > worked out with Mills being > less than a dozen times richer than Bill Gates by now, and him being > the most famous and respected person on earth. After 14 years millions > of people would have seen the effect, and I think there is simply no > question Mills would have been given the full credit for it, and > objections would have been swept aside by now, by the force of public opinion. Jed is restating his model of how other people should act. An earlier version of the above paragraph is his "Inventors Disease" in which he castigated CF investigators for not producing simple demo cells or toys which would have unleashed a flood ofn entreprenural development to the betterment of all. There is a phase of the development of a technology when this is true and will happen. But Nature will have her own way, and the CF field still has not produced *really active* cells. Mills is actually much closer to that phase now. There hasn't been anything "hidden" since the BLP website went up years ago, anymore than there is anything "hidden" since lenr-canr.org went up. BLP reactors are not tabletop toys. I have heard Mills wish that more would duplicate his work; it's not that hard for a comeptent investigator, or even an amateur. Jeff Fink has invested significant time, money and effort in replicating the Correa PAGD effect. I have suggested to him that he might try a BLP reactor. You can start by tearing up a microwave oven and doing some plumbing. You will need a simple spectroscope to see the hydrogen alpha line broadening, which is a signature of the BLP reaction. There is a lot of useful empirical work to be done in scaling up the reaction. Within months there may be some announcement of a partnership between BLP and X, and possibly an IPO which will generate publicity to the effect that there is something 'real'. Then I would expect a flurry of experimentation inthe manner Jed applauds. It is not that he is wrong, at all, is is that this appears at a certain phase. For example, the rush of development of electrical gnerators and motors did not happen until after Faraday's experiments, and radio after Hertz's experiments. Even then the invetion of real radio was done by Tesla, who was much more than a tinkerer, and preceded Marconi, who copied aspects of his work. Tesla was recognized by the USPTO as the inventor of radio by issuance of a patent in 1936, after years of debate. > > > >. . . there is a measureable fuel consumption, many documentated and > >detailed experiments, and confirmation by other observers. > > Oh come now. Yes, we all agree that Mills has done some interesting > experiments, but the confirmations by other observers hardly compares > to the confirmations available for CF. Confirmation is confirmation. Quantity is not of the essence. > Most of the confirming evidence he > cited years ago was only distantly related to his claims. Again, Jed was not paying close attention, both to 'claims' and to 'evidence'. All this would be > forgivable -- indeed it would be the only viable path forward -- if > Mills had not held in his hands devices that would have convinced > millions of engineers worldwide back in 1992. If you can convince > engineers you do not need to worry what the physicists think. You can > ignore them along with the > patent office, Scientific American, and the rest of the peanut gallery. > Engineers far outnumber physicists, and they have much greater access > to capital and the real-world levers of power. Jed has done quite well as an entrepreneur in the tidy world of programming, which was made tidy by the efforts of hundreds, if not thousands of engineers who created that tidy world by doing battle with Nature in creating reliable electronic components, including microcircuits. I'm an engineer who has seen up close the pain to product development, the continuing agony of mass production of color picture tubes, and have come to understand the chasm which separates the R&D lab and the production floor. What Mills had produced in the lab are well done demonstrations of effects. The road from there to useful devices will take lots of money. Engineers have to be convinced of the reality of the effects by doing their own experiments, and need confidence that the BLP team can safely guide them in product development. From all evidence, I don't think the Jed really has any idea of all that is entailed, although I respect him for what he has accomplished. >From my persepective from a once-world class corporation, Mills has been making all the right moves, but success is not guaranteed until it happens. Jed's perspective is different. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 11:53:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45IrLbG011033; Thu, 5 May 2005 11:53:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45IrHoA010994; Thu, 5 May 2005 11:53:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:53:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050505185310.B4C533E5E xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Aw, c'mon, Bill. Don't you think you're being unkind to the morally handicapped? I was sort of getting kick out the dodging and weaving. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 12:03:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45J2UbG014632; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:02:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45J29RC014552; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:02:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:02:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:01:54 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Skepticism and the Scientific Method (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j45J1xbG014463 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Society for Scientific Exploration annual May conference in Florida... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 03:03:27 +0900 From: Marty Cawthon To: sse-members scientificexploration.org Subject: [SSE-members] Skepticism and the Scientific Method Fellow Members of the Society for Scientific Exploration (SSE), "Skepticism and the Scientific Method" - This cuts to the heart of it for many of us! Come meet your colleagues in sunny Gainesville Florida for some truly thought-provoking conference sessions, lively discussions, and memorable experiences at the 24th SSE Annual Meeting May 19-21. The program is listed below. Note especially that on Friday morning, Michael Lemonick from Time Magazine will discuss "Why Reporters Don't Do Stories on Your Research". This should be worth the price admission by itself! Take steps to register today! Low cost flights to the Gainesville area are still available. Special room rates can still be had. But as they say "time and tide, they wait for no one". Registration details are at http://www.ScientificExploration.org You won't want to miss this one! Marty Cawthon info ScientificExploration.org Information Officer Society for Scientific Exploration ------------------------------------ SOCIETY FOR SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATION 24th Annual SSE Meeting May 19-21, 2005 Gainesville, Florida Theme: Skepticism and the Scientific Method The Twenty-fourth Annual Meeting of the Society for Scientific Exploration will be held at the Gateway Grand Hotel (Tel: (352)-331-3336) in Gainesville, Florida, on May 19-21, 2005 (Thursday through Saturday). Local arrangements are by Tom Dykstra. Garret Moddel chairs the Program Committee. PROGRAM WEDNESDAY EVENING 7:00 OPENING RECEPTION THURSDAY MORNING - OPENING 9:00 Welcome and Opening Remarks Skepticism 1 9:10 The View from Space, and Its Effects, EDGAR MITCHELL, Institute of Noetic Sciences 10:10 Skepticism versus Belief: A Pedagogic Method Invites New Insights, Charles Eisenstein, Penn State University 10:30 Break 10:50 A Bridge between Skepticism and Belief, ERIC KRIEG, Philadelphia Association for Critical Thinking Scientific Method & Consciousness 11:30 Multipolar Scientific Methods and Technologies, Andrey Zavalin, Vanderbilt University, and Vasily Lensky, International Association of Scientists and Intelligentsia. 11:50 The Consciential Paradigm: A new Paradigm for Studying Consciousness, David Lindsay, International Academy of Consciousness, New York 12:10 Lunch THURSDAY AFTERNOON 1:40 Why the Study of the Anomalous is Critical for Scientific Endeavor, VERNON M. NEPPE, Pacific Neuropsychiatric Institute, Seattle 2:20 The Science of the Future: Liberation from the Cartesian Prison, Mike Lydon 2:40 Formation of a Scientific Theory: Lessons Learned from Insectolfaction, THOMAS M. DYKSTRA, Dykstra Laboratories, Inc. 3:20 Break 3:40 The PEAR Proposition: “Change the Rules!”, ROBERT G. JAHN AND BRENDA J. DUNNE, Princeton University 4:20 Quantum Mechanics, Complexity, and Consciousness: Toward a Science of Conscious Systems, Larry Goldberg 4:40 Extending the Ecologically-Motivated Paradigm of Perception: An Examination of Perceivable Information in Functional Altered States of Consciousness, Igor Dolgov, Arizona State University 5:00 YOUNG INVESTIGATORS MEETING THURSDAY EVENING Panel Discussion 1 8:00 What does "Scientific" Really Mean? FRIDAY MORNING - Skepticism 2 9:00 Why Reporters Don't Do Stories on Your Research, MICHAEL LEMONICK, TIME Magazine 9:40 The Two-Edged Sword of Skepticism: Occam’s Razor and Occam’s Lobotomy, HENRY H. BAUER, Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University 10:20 Break 10:30 What Produces Organized Skeptics?, David Leiter 10:50 Sizing up Psi in a University Classroom: Exploration, Acceptance & Skepticism, Garret Moddel, University of Colorado 11:10 Scientific Methodology: Linking Subjective Paranormal Experience and Focal Brain Dysfunction, Vernon M. Neppe, Pacific Neuropsychiatric Institute FRIDAY AFTERNOON - FIELD TRIP Silver Springs Nature Theme Park FRIDAY EVENING Panel Discussion 2 8:00 Does Skepticism of Psi Still Have a Leg to Stand On? SATURDAY MORNING 9:00 Reflections on the Skeptic Proponent Debate in Parapsychology, MARILYN SCHLITZ, Institute of Noetic Sciences, and California Pacific Medical Center 9:40 Do Near-Death Experience Accounts Improve With Age? A Skeptical Look at a Skeptical Hypothesis, Bruce Greyson, University of Virginia PSI and Science Anomalies 10:00 Data Selection and Optional Stopping, York H Dobyns, Princeton University 10:20 Break 10:40 Consciousness Physics as an Alternative to String Theory, Evan Harris Walker, WCRI 11:00 The Physics of Encounter, Roderick Boes 11:20 Meaning and the Long Body, William Roll, State University of West Georgia 11:40 Comparison of Consciousness Functionalities: Introducing a Newtonian/Quantum Model, John P. MacLean, Utah Valley State College 12:00 Lunch SATURDAY AFTERNOON 1:40 Target Research Project: A Methodology to Support Research on Remote Perception Phenomena, Rodrigo Medeiros, IAC – International Academy of Consciousness 2:00 Exploring the Formative Dynamics of Dream State Psi (DSP) and Conscious State Psi (CSP), Dale E. Graff 2:20 Energy Emissions from an Exceptional Subject, Stephen B. Baumann, William T. Joines, Jeremy Kim, and Jonathan M. Zile, Duke University 2:40 The Physiology of Spontaneous Remission and Various Healing Modalities: the Foundation for a Unifying Theory?, Carl G. Medwedeff 3:00 Crystal Irradiation Stimulation of Enzyme Reactivity (CISER): A Possible Paradigmatic Explanation, George E. Bass, University of Tennessee Health Science Center 3:20 Break 3:40 Passing the Baton to the Future You: Prospective Research on Reincarnation through the Time Capsule Project, Nelson Abreu, University of Florida 4:00 Can Astrology be Tested? Bob Marks 4:20 The Enigma of Weeping Icons, Marilyn I. Schmidt 4:45 SSE BUSINESS MEETING SATURDAY EVENING 7:00 CLOSING BANQUET _______________________________________________ SSE-members mailing list SSE-members ei-tiger.chipchat.ne.jp http://ei-tiger.chipchat.ne.jp/mailman/listinfo/sse-members From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 12:19:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45JJNbG022971; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:19:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45JJIwC022940; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:19:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:19:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505151842.03255540 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 15:19:07 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Today's date Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Today is 05/05/05. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 12:31:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45JUjbG029748; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:30:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45JUhHx029727; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:30:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:30:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b17n$vqio18 mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,157,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="1068064808:sNHT570722374" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Today's date Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:29:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > > Today is 05/05/05. > > - Jed > Yeah, tell me about it. I'm trying to perform DB2 SQL queries against mainframe tables within Microsoft Access. Using the "DateValue" function for today's date ('05/05/05') is damn confusing! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 12:40:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45JeAbG001244; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:40:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45JdxpT001022; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:39:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:39:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Today's date Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:42:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505151842.03255540 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And more importantly, my birthday. Perhaps some Tennyson is in order. ************************************************* FIVE years have past; five summers, with the length Of five long winters! and again I hear These waters, rolling from their mountain-springs With a soft inland murmur.--Once again ************************************************* or as we might say in NYC, ************************************************* DOGG check it, I am by this creek, for five damn weeks, and I got hell of emotions... ...in my brain. Word up, Peeps. ************************************************* >From the sublime to the ridiculous. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 3:19 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: OFF TOPIC Today's date Today is 05/05/05. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 12:47:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45JkfbG006545; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:46:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45JkbJt006510; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:46:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:46:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:46:36 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Michael Foster cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone In-Reply-To: <20050505185310.B4C533E5E xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: References: <20050505185310.B4C533E5E xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Michael Foster wrote: > Aw, c'mon, Bill. Don't you think you're being unkind to > the morally handicapped? I was sort of getting kick out > the dodging and weaving. Heh. I had my fill of this way back in the "Mitch" era. Also, I started out as one of these "liar" types myself. It took years for me to get loose of it, and I developed a feeling of revulsion whenever I encounter remaining traces of it in myself. (And when I encountered the "bend-over-backwards honesty" mentioned in Feynman's Cargo Cult science, I took it as new gospel and started preaching it.) And when I encounter others with the dishonesty problem, I refuse to put up with the same revulsion for any long period. Either they go away, or I do. In the case of vortex-L, the choice is obvious. Maybe I should put that in the rules: "be warned, the moderator has a low tolerance for dishonesty, and tends to eject members on suspicion only, without clear proof of lies." (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 12:50:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45JoGbG008514; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:50:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45JoEhK008492; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:50:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=OGjK6nqF068FH1v8qUaCunVa9jy7MLUDEnH8aIDP2UIsh+Re4CKCa2/JYkLXLIfiPh6v68g/iNYwCaQdRufRjfp74Km6KNZZloVEKmQeKJqlmoY1IB07GbwPVc9r08BWvjH1Y3Ghmyu7Hr66Lcvugj0jJ29NEtzkr2wIG1PP/9M= ; Message-ID: <20050505195004.30809.qmail web41527.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Spiral helixes To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Grimer wrote: > There is a rather nice polarization applet at: > > http://home3.netcarrier.com/~chan/EM/PROGRAMS/POLARIZATION/ > > From it one can get an immediate and clear > conception of the > nature of circular polarization and elliptical > polarization as > well for that matter. > > In effect the third component of light must be that > which > governs the phase angle. This ties is with Jones's > insight > in relation to three phase power transmission. > > It would appear that the third unrecognised phase > must be > one of the two components of mass referred to in a > previous > post. > > When googling ["three phase" theory] I was amused to > come > across the factor 1.732: This is the sq rt of 3. In the 3 phase system the delivery line, which is one of three can carry 1.732 A delivery current which then splits into two individually phased one amp currents. These phase delivery currents are themselves 120 degrees out of phase with each other, and obviously also out of phase with the delivery line itself. Because of this delta load phase splitting, Kirchoffs laws of junction currents is seemingly violated where what goes out has become greater then what went in at the node... This appaent contradiction does not consider the TIMING of each AC signal. The complication is resolved when we consider the total picture using all three phases. Suppose we had three different electrical co.s each selling a single phase of electricity, but that each one was operating 120 degrees out of phase with the other. In this case of single phase electricity sold by each Co. the delivery line current and the phase current of the load are one and the same thing. One AMP delivery yeilds One AMP phase current. But in actuality it cost the electric CO the line losses of TWO delivery lines, since there is an enter and exit line for the single phase of electricity. Thus we have six lines of sending and recieving currents for three loads. Now suppose the electric Co.s all merged so that they shared each others delivery lines. The sending line current of one Co.s current will be paired with the recieving line of its neighboring co. on each side. The vector combination(which is actually a vector subraction and not a vector addition, since these are sending and recieving currents from each phase) of both the sending and recieving currents on both lines shows that when the two one amp curents were combined in parallel lines, the two amps was reduced to 1.7. And perhaps more importantly the Co.s in unison merely made two lines in to one, reffered to as stator line currents on the example of a 3 phase alternator. This also means that now instead we have three loads having only three delivery lines, instead of six. Now if we carried forth this same argument for quadrature phasing, the shared 1 amp lines would enable 2 amps of phase currents to be delivered to the quature corner at an even lower l.4 Amps delivery line current. The question then becomes does adding more phases automatically guarantee further gains in efficiency? No it does not... As proof of this let us investigate a hypothetical 5 phase system. In the first case the three phase system delivered three one amp currents at a cost of(the square root of three)= 1.7A on the delivery lines. In the second case the quadrature system delivered four one amp phase currents at a cost of (the sq root of two)= 1.4 A on the four delivery lines. In the hypothetical five phase system we have the sq rt of 5 = Five 2.23 Amp delivery line currents to enable five individual phased one amp currents. So we here can see the superiority of the quadrature system in showing that no other polyphasing scheme can superceed its % of delivery line vs load line currents. This is also for a simple rule of vector addition vs vector subtraction. Only a 90 degree angle between equal vectors gives equal magnitude results for both addition or subtraction. ====================================================== > POWER = E x I x 1.732 x POWER FACTOR (FOR THREE > PHASE) > > ====================================================== > which, as readers of my precious post may recall, is > > Vesica Pisces. 8^) > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 12:53:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45JqtbG010116; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:52:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45JqqXM010084; Thu, 5 May 2005 12:52:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:52:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Today's date Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:55:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505151842.03255540 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: DOH! I meant Wordsworth... ******************************************* Five years have past: five summers, with the length Of five long winters! And again I hear These waters, rolling from their mountain-springs With a soft inland murmur. — Once again Do I behold these steep and lofty cliffs, That on a wild secluded scene impress Thoughts of more deep seclusion; and connect The landscape with the quiet of the sky. ******************************************* -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 3:19 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: OFF TOPIC Today's date Today is 05/05/05. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 13:14:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45KDlbG018336; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:13:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45KDfsL018293; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:13:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:13:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505160148.03255540 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 16:13:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Today's date In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505151842.03255540 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >And more importantly, my birthday. How nice! Congratulations. > From the sublime to the ridiculous. Or as Stan Kelly-Bootle put it, from the sublime to cor' blimey. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 13:17:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45KGmbG019689; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:16:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45KGjT6019659; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:16:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:16:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00a001c551af$46454a80$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF508 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:56:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <5RCVKC.A.9yE.s8neCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Zell wrote: > Are you saying that Jeff Fink ( or anybody) has replicated the PAGD > claims? Has he -or anyone- obtained results that might be overunity? > > Thanks I only said he invested considerable effort. He did not succeed, but neither did he faithfully replicate what is in the Correa patents. To my knowledge, nobody has replicated the effect. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 13:17:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45KHBbG019851; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:17:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45KH6aY019813; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:17:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60@pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:16:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >Jed was not paying close enough attention then or now. Mills abandoned > >electrolytic cells because he could not get a high enough energy density. > > I realize that is what he said. > > > >His target then was utility boilers. > > That "target" is insanity squared. It reminds of the old Bob Newhart > routine where a promoter is talking to the Wright brothers on December 18, > 1903. He asks how many passengers can fly on the airplane, and "does it > have a john?" He tells them he sees no commercial possibilities for it. Pay attention: target "was". He did get investments from electric utilities. Like any entrepreneur he shows possible applications for the proposed development. Power generation is still a prime target, but not utilities as such. > > Columbus discovered America in 1492. By 1505 there was a huge > trans-Atlantic trade. As one person put it "the great Atlantic has become a > Spanish Lake." If Mills had been Columbus he would have kept it the > discovery secret, and in 1505 he would still be negotiating the property > rights to Hispaniola. Jed continually underestimates the capital necessary to develop a technology like BLP. > > > >Jed has done quite well as an entrepreneur in the tidy world of programming, > >which was made tidy by the efforts of hundreds, if not thousands of > >engineers who created that tidy world by doing battle with Nature in > >creating reliable electronic components, including microcircuits. I'm an > >engineer who has seen up close the pain to product development, the > >continuing agony of mass production of color picture tubes . . . > > Oh come now Mike. Where were we 12 years after the invention of the > transistor, in 1960? Where were integrated circuits in 1971, 12 years after > Texas Instruments first developed them? As I recall, the first integrated circuits did not cause much of a stir, because the computer market at the time had accomodated to the idea of cards with a few gates or flip-flops on it. The Army was investing heavy bucks inthe micromod program, which used stacks of ceramic wafers with components on them with wires running up the sides. It was the USAF who ***needed*** integrated circuits at any price and paid real heavy cold war bucks to fund the program. Otherwise, history might be quite different. All of that was based on well known technology, but a trememdous effort was required to get the circuit density up and the unit cost down. No such drive has been focused on BLP, or LENR, for that matter. The entrepreneural drive of applications came **after** the devices were available. you did not and do hot have people making ICs their basement. Was the 1992 Mills device really > that much harder to make then the first transistors? The first transistor > and the first integrated circuit were no more practical than the 1992 > cells. If he had done a proper demonstration and invited experts from all > over, by now he would be the leader of the largest industry on earth. Nope, the technology was not ready then. Why have the leaders not come to LENR demos? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 13:26:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45KQ7bG024623; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:26:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45KQ4Hk024601; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:26:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:26:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006201c551b0$7b6ea570$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Today's date Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:24:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4qnMMB.A.QAG.cFoeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Weishaupt opines, somewhat heedless to the hidden cadre of p'noid conspiracy-theorist, witch-hunting lurkers on Vo... > And more importantly, my birthday. Yup...;-) I was just waiting to see if anyone would be "outed" today as an Illuminati... but never did I guess it was good ole Keith ... Here let it be noted that the five founders of the Illuminati used five witchcraft rituals known as "The greater and lesser keys of Solomon", which involved the "Pentacle of Invocation." The pentacle is a three-dimensional, five-pointed star, and the number five became sacred to the Illuminati - a calling card, shall we say? We must also note that a cosmopolitan family of Paris, London and Gotham city, probably Keith's (well-disguised) kin as well, consisted of five sons who took the pseudonym Rothschild, "Red Shield." Later, a man named John D. Rockefeller also bore five sons to assume control the American branch. The Illuminati is obsessed with the Pentacles, so is it any wonder that the Washington Monument is exactly 555 feet high? Or is it any wonder that we have a five-sided death house, known as the Pentagon, building all kinds of flying death machines adorned with pentacles? All built by former members of you know what.... Members of secret societies, such as Most High Masonic Lodge of the Grand Orient, use the words "unknown superiors" to describe the mystery force that guides them and their efforts at World domination. When the Illuminati was formed in that most important year of 1776.... in Walpurgisnacht (and we all know what that means) in May of 1776, five men gathered in a Bavarian cavern (where much of the local brew was stored) and made contact with "unknown superiors," not an uncommon occurence in Bavaria. One of these five men was Dr. Adam Weishaupt, a profound name in the sense it means "first man to know the superiors." In numerology Number 5 stands for adventure, change, freedom, exploration, variety, sensuality, periodicity, knowledge seeking, child-like playfulness, five full senses, etc. Worship of Taurus' symbol, the bull, was celebrated during the Taurean Age, which extended from about 4,000 to 2,000 B.C. The bull's horns represented fertility, growth, and generation, analogous to spring, when the earth is fertile and everything is growing abundantly. Living under the first earth sign in the zodiac, you Taureans appreciate all the good things the physical world has to offer. In fact, the more beautiful and sensually pleasing something is, the better but you don't mind working hard or long to acquire it... High-fives all-around for Keith!! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 13:37:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45KaVbG029266; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:36:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45KaTo2029242; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:36:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:36:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b197$vre1vb mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,157,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="1068959723:sNHT1901842366" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:36:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" ... > As I recall, the first integrated circuits did not cause > much of a stir, because the computer market at the time > had accomodated to the idea of cards with a few gates or > flip-flops on it. The Army was investing heavy bucks > inthe micromod program, which used stacks of ceramic > wafers with components on them with wires running up the > sides. It was the USAF who ***needed*** integrated > circuits at any price and paid real heavy cold war bucks > to fundthe program. Otherwise, history might be quite > different. All of that was based on well known > technology, but a trememdous effort was required to get > the circuit density up and the unit cost down. No such > drive has been focused on BLP, or LENR, for that matter. > > The entrepreneural drive of applications came **after** > the devices were available. you did not and do hot have > people making ICs their basement. > For what it's worth, I recently read a fascinating book that described the history of "the chip". How it came into being. Based on what I read much of what Mr. Carrell has had to say on this subject appears to be pretty accurate. Go to Amazon.com. The book is titled "The Chip" by T. R. Reid. I enjoyed reading it. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375758283/qid=1115324620/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-2593695-8176836 *************************************** >From Publishers Weekly In 1958, "before Chernobyl, before the Challenger rocket blew up, before the advent of Internet porn or cell phones that ring in the middle of the opera," when "`technological progress' still had only positive connotations," Jack Kilby had a good idea, but wasn't sure if his boss at Texas Instruments in Dallas would let him try it. In 1959, in what would become Silicon Valley, Robert Noyce had the same idea about overcoming "the numbers barrier" in electronics: "in a computer with tens of thousands of components... things were just about impossible to make," says Noyce. In his completely revised and updated edition of The Chip: How Two Americans Invented the Microchip and Launched a Revolution, Washington Post reporter and columnist T.R. Reid (Confucius Lives Next Door) investigates these underappreciated heroes of the technological age and the global repercussions of their invention. The enormity of their accomplishment was fully recognized only in 2000, when Kilby won the ! Nobel Prize. 3-city author tour. Copyright 2001 Cahners Business Information, Inc. *************************************** Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 13:55:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45Kt9bG004175; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:55:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45Kt6fP004148; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:55:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:55:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 16:54:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed about Mills In-Reply-To: <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40 pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Pay attention: target "was". He did get investments from electric utilities. He and others would have billions of dollars to work with if only he would take steps to convince the world the effect is real. He would have literally hundreds of thousands of times more manpower and money to devote to the problem, and this would increase the value of his patent by an unimaginable extent. >If Mills had been Columbus he would have kept it the > > discovery secret, and in 1505 he would still be negotiating the property > > rights to Hispaniola. > >Jed continually underestimates the capital necessary to develop a technology >like BLP. On the contrary, it is Mills who is underestimating the capital & effort required. He thinks he can do it himself. I think it will take thousands of people, and without thousands of people in hundreds of different companies he will surely fail. If thousands of companies had not developed the transistor, AT&T alone would have failed. There is no question their development effort was running off the tracks by the mid-1950s, and by 1960 it was moribund. Columbus could not have conquered or developed the New World on his own, in secret. Mills is trying to accomplish a task nearly as difficult as setting up European civilization in the Americas. >Where were integrated circuits in 1971, 12 years >after > > Texas Instruments first developed them? > >As I recall, the first integrated circuits did not cause much of a stir, >because the computer market at the time had accomodated to the idea of cards >with a few gates or flip-flops on it. By 1971 integrated circuits were already one of the largest industries on earth. >The entrepreneural drive of applications came **after** the devices were >available. you did not and do hot have people making ICs their basement. That is completely incorrect. That is exactly where people made the first ICs -- in basements and "secret" labs where conservative upper management could not find them, and prevent the research. (At Bell Labs, they were found out, and the research was quashed.) Furthermore, tons of entrepreneurial money and talent poured into the development within weeks of the announcements of both transistors and ICs. See Riorden and Hoddeson, or any history of transistors and integrated circuits. That was also the case with telegraphs, railroads, aircraft, computers and every other major technology I am familiar with. In every case, entrepreneurs began working frantically on the technology *years* before it became practical. They were a half-million people working on a airplanes in 1911, for goodness sake! Airplanes did not became a practical, cost-effective means of transportation until the introduction of the DC-3 in 1935, 24 years later. All previous airplanes lost money and most of them killed a large fraction of the pilots and passengers. What Mills is trying to do is comparable to the Wright brothers trying to build a Douglas DC-3 starting in 1904, in secret, with $50,000 in capital. The Wrights were incomparable geniuses, but the notion that one or two geniuses can do something like that alone is utterly absurd. It took the skills of hundreds of thousands of people working for a full generation to reach that level of development. Conceptually, a DC-3 is quite similar to the 1903 Wright Flyer. The design is instantly recognizable, and I doubt anyone would dispute that the DC-3 would have been covered by the Wright patent if that patent had still been in force. But in practical terms the DC-3 incorporates tens of thousands of ideas, improvements, and devices such as retractable landing gear that the Wrights never dreamed of. No one could have imagined such things in 1903. I have no doubt whatever that if the Mills device works and it is eventually incorporated into our economy, it will require as much innovation as the DC-3 did. Actually, it will take that plus the computer, plus the telephone system and the Internet and transistors combined. Ultimately, *every single machine* will have to be redesigned to take advantage of it. The sooner that task begins, the greater the patent revenue will be. If that task is only done by a handful of people, no matter what else happens, the patent revenue will be thousands or perhaps millions times smaller than it should be. I mean that literally; I am not exaggerating. Consider the automobile business before Henry Ford, and after. Or the computer business before the PC when 40,000 units were sold every year, or today, when 20,000 are sold *every hour*. >Nope, the technology was not ready then. Why have the leaders not come to >LENR demos? There have been no LENR demos! Demos may not even be possible. I do not know a single researcher in the world who could do one on demand the way Mills reportedly did at Thermacore in 1992. Furthermore, and in some important ways the 1992 Mills devices were more impressive than any CF device ever made: they turned on quickly and they were reliable. The fact that they did not produce commercial levels of heat was totally irrelevant. Even if it could be shown that these devices could never produce temperatures above 80 deg C, with an input output ratio no larger than 1:1.3, they still would have swept all the world and convinced everyone everywhere within a matter of months if they had been handled correctly. The only similar device in CF that was ever developed was the Patterson cell, which was deliberately hidden the same way Mills hid his devices. Other researchers, such as Mizuno have very impressive cells, but they are not as convincing. Someone watching a glow discharge experiment who understands what he sees will be properly impressed. Mizuno is one of the few people on earth who will show his work to any qualified person. The others all play hide and seek. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 13:56:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45Ku1bG004826; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:56:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45KtRSc004311; Thu, 5 May 2005 13:55:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:55:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050504085924.0069e414 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050504085924.0069e414 pop.freeserve.net> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:56:14 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: Arie DeGeus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <0ku5vD.A.6CB.8goeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Frank Grimer wrote; > >Incidently, the late Dr. Robert Carroll, who was a consultant to our firm >>the last dozen years of his life, predicted the importance of fractional > >quantum states > >of his work. He tried to patent a really cold fusion reactor, down close to > >absolute zero, many years prior to Pons and Fleishmann, but the patent Got a URL? Someone noted that he became persona non grata after questioning an inventor's (De Geus's?) methodology. This reminds me of Joe Newman's reaction when my friend attempted to test his batteries. Any one who gets angry when you question their methods, results, conclusions and pet paradigms usually his something to hide. It is a very bad sign, particularly if they are looking for venture capital, which pretty well comes with the territory. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 14:04:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45L4IbG011637; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:04:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45L4FCE011604; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:04:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:04:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006201c551b0$7b6ea570$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <006201c551b0$7b6ea570$6401a8c0 NuDell> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:00:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Today's date Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Keith Weishaupt opines, somewhat heedless to the hidden cadre of >p'noid conspiracy-theorist, witch-hunting lurkers on Vo... > >>And more importantly, my birthday. > >Yup...;-) I was just waiting to see if anyone would be "outed" >today as an Illuminati... but never did I guess it was good ole >Keith ... Wow, Jones, you went way off topic with this post. http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/sixpointedstar.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 14:09:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45L9fbG013834; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:09:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45L9cs6013801; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:09:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:09:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050505141608.0273eb18 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 14:16:24 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Today's date In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505151842.03255540 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505151842.03255540 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Awesome! At 12:19 PM 5/5/2005, you wrote: >Today is 05/05/05. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 14:11:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45LBhbG014972; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:11:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45LBfN1014953; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:11:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505165604.0324d6a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 17:11:13 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed about Mills In-Reply-To: <41b197$vre1vb mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41b197$vre1vb mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >For what it's worth, I recently read a fascinating book that described the >history of "the chip". How it came into being. Based on what I read much >of what Mr. Carrell has had to say on this subject appears to be pretty >accurate. Believe me, he got it wrong. I have not read the book by T. R. Reid (a Washington Post reporter) but I have read many books by engineers and technologists, and I am sure that by 1971 integrated circuits were a gigantic industry. Heck, I have computer textbooks and manuals from that era right here on my shelf, which describe the IC industry and its importance. I have a Hitachi IC from that era mounted in a tie clip. (I also have one of the last magnetic core memory units, which hangs on my wall.) >Washington Post reporter and columnist T.R. Reid (Confucius Lives Next >Door) investigates these underappreciated heroes of the technological age >and the global repercussions of their invention. They were not underappreciated! Anyone familiar with the history of technology would recognize the names instantly. Furthermore, others who made large contributions such as Robert Noyce were also recognized, and rewarded with several orders of magnitude more money than you get with a Nobel prize. > The enormity of their accomplishment was fully recognized only in 2000, > when Kilby won the Nobel Prize. 3-city author tour. That's ridiculous. They got every honor known to engineering long before 2000. The Nobel award to him was an anomaly. Kilby was probably the first engineer in history to get it, and the last. The Nobel was never intended to be a prize for applied technology. It is for academic science. The people who invented the transistor got Nobels very quickly because they were physicists and chemists. There is no Nobel for engineering, and none for mathematics, supposedly because Mrs. Nobel had an affair with a mathematician. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 14:36:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45LZlbG024587; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:35:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45LZjeA024551; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:35:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:35:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b61h$7vkv1h mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,157,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="268074033:sNHT13806048" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:35:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0HrlGB.A.j_F.wGpeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: ... > For what it's worth, I recently read a fascinating book > that described the history of "the chip". How it came > into being. Based on what I read much of what Mr. Carrell > has had to say on this subject appears to be pretty > accurate. > PS: Vorts! Humor me for a minute! Back in 1997 I attended the 50th anniversary of the ROSWELL UFO crash held in Roswell, New Mexico. One of the major attractions who attended the event was a retired officer by the name of Philip J. Corso. Back in 97, Mr. Corso, now deceased, had made a splash in the media by publishing a book titled "The Day after Roswell". He had been on several TV shows talking up a storm. Corso claimed to have seen alien bodies that came from the alleged Roswell crash. He stated that he took a peek under the lid of a sealed crate and believed he saw an alien body floating in some blue liquid. He tried to forget what he saw. Corso did manage to, for the most part, forget about his Roswell experience until several years later, when he was working at the Pentagon he was given a special assignment from his superior. Several items allegedly taken from the Roswell crash site were brought up to Corso's office for evaluation. His boss wanted Corso to figure out how the alien technology could be "reversed engineered" so that the benefits might find their way into our society, and not just the military. One of the items Corso claimed to have carefully examined was something akin to what he described as a "silicon chip". Something else he claimed to have handled looked like what we would call today "fiber optics". The story goes that, with the blessing of his superior, Corso discretely took some of these foreign items to various commercial facilities and asked the R&D departments if there was some way they might be able to profit through "reverse engineering" the technology. The deal was that these compan! ies could reap the benefits as long as the military had access to the technology as well. According to Corso, none of these commercial labs asked where the "foreign technology" came from. Most assumed it came from the Russians, and Corso was more than happy to let them assume away. I should add here that how this alleged alien technology was discretely introduced to various commercial companies was done in a complicated manner. I'm definitely glossing over the specifics in this brief accounting. One of the labs Corso visited was Bell Labs. He visited other's prestigious labs as well. The highlight of my Roswell experience was having the chance to sit next to Corso in an airplane flight while departing Roswell. We both were on the same "puddle jumper" headed for Phoenix, Arizona. Corso was in his 80s. He was quite the gregarious fellow. He didn't seem to mind telling a good joke including a few told at his own expense. Earlier in the event I have given Corso a T-Shirt that had on the front one of my paintings suggesting symbolically the concept of how "reverse engineering" could influence our society. It was one of my first digital paintings created back in the mid 90s. I have the painting on display at my web site. It is titled "The Seeding." See: http://www.orionworks.com/artgal/svj/seeding_m.htm Fortunately, for me Corso remembered who I was and joked that he never got the chance to wear my t-shirt gift, as one of his grandkids, also attending the event, snapped it up. Corso was gracious enough to allow me to take a couple of snap shots of him pensively looking out the airplane's window as we cruised above 20,000 feet. We shared idle banter for most of our brief flight. I recalled Corso talking about his experiences with the "Flying Tigers" an air born outfit that existed back in WW2 in China. What I'd give a leg today to ask the late Corso back then on that brief flight out of Roswell was if he had ever read T. R. Reid's book "The Chip." Obviously, the book made no reference at all to the possibility that any of the companies who worked on developing the chip had been influenced by any kind of so-called "alien technology." I should add here that I see no reason to doubt the history of "the chip" as accounted by Reids either. Never the less, I would loved to have witnessed Corso's reaction. I bet he's slapping his knees as I write this. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 14:44:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45LhmbG027639; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:43:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45Lhj1j027601; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:43:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:43:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Today's date Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:46:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <006201c551b0$7b6ea570$6401a8c0 NuDell> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A couple lines for you, old friend. Coffee beans, and physics schemes, Jones Beene dreams, of energy machines. Paranoid skeins, left coast leans, writes his mandelas, upon the starry wheel. Elvis, of Vortexville. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:25 PM To: knagel gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Today's date Keith Weishaupt opines, somewhat heedless to the hidden cadre of p'noid conspiracy-theorist, witch-hunting lurkers on Vo... > And more importantly, my birthday. Yup...;-) I was just waiting to see if anyone would be "outed" today as an Illuminati... but never did I guess it was good ole Keith ... Here let it be noted that the five founders of the Illuminati used five witchcraft rituals known as "The greater and lesser keys of Solomon", which involved the "Pentacle of Invocation." The pentacle is a three-dimensional, five-pointed star, and the number five became sacred to the Illuminati - a calling card, shall we say? We must also note that a cosmopolitan family of Paris, London and Gotham city, probably Keith's (well-disguised) kin as well, consisted of five sons who took the pseudonym Rothschild, "Red Shield." Later, a man named John D. Rockefeller also bore five sons to assume control the American branch. The Illuminati is obsessed with the Pentacles, so is it any wonder that the Washington Monument is exactly 555 feet high? Or is it any wonder that we have a five-sided death house, known as the Pentagon, building all kinds of flying death machines adorned with pentacles? All built by former members of you know what.... Members of secret societies, such as Most High Masonic Lodge of the Grand Orient, use the words "unknown superiors" to describe the mystery force that guides them and their efforts at World domination. When the Illuminati was formed in that most important year of 1776.... in Walpurgisnacht (and we all know what that means) in May of 1776, five men gathered in a Bavarian cavern (where much of the local brew was stored) and made contact with "unknown superiors," not an uncommon occurence in Bavaria. One of these five men was Dr. Adam Weishaupt, a profound name in the sense it means "first man to know the superiors." In numerology Number 5 stands for adventure, change, freedom, exploration, variety, sensuality, periodicity, knowledge seeking, child-like playfulness, five full senses, etc. Worship of Taurus' symbol, the bull, was celebrated during the Taurean Age, which extended from about 4,000 to 2,000 B.C. The bull's horns represented fertility, growth, and generation, analogous to spring, when the earth is fertile and everything is growing abundantly. Living under the first earth sign in the zodiac, you Taureans appreciate all the good things the physical world has to offer. In fact, the more beautiful and sensually pleasing something is, the better but you don't mind working hard or long to acquire it... High-fives all-around for Keith!! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 14:44:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45Li3bG027737; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:44:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45LhxYb027692; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:43:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:43:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505173134.03256eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 17:42:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: 1972 computer textbook describes ICs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9933796==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_9933796==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A few quotes from: Sanders, D., Computers in Business, an Introduction. 2 ed. 1972: McGraw-Hill. The third-generation computers, introduced in 1964, make use of microelectronics, or integrated, circuits on a large scale. Such circuits may be almost microscopic, but they contain the equivalent of many transistors. (Instead of 100,000 circuits per cubic foot, third-generation technology allowed packing 10 million circuits in the same space.) ... Has the end been reached in the feasible size reduction of computer circuitry? Hardly. As just noted, it is now possible to pack over 100,000 components on a thin square inch wafer. One scientist recently speculated than a decade or so it may be possible to achieve such packing density throughout a cubic inch of material. The density of electronic components would then be "about a fourth of the density of nerve cells in the human brain." [cite F. G. Heath, Scientific American, 1970, p. 22] --=====================_9933796==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" A few quotes from:

Sanders, D., Computers in Business, an Introduction. 2 ed. 1972: McGraw-Hill.

The third-generation computers, introduced in 1964, make use of microelectronics, or integrated, circuits on a large scale. Such circuits may be almost microscopic, but they contain the equivalent of many transistors. (Instead of 100,000 circuits per cubic foot, third-generation technology allowed packing 10 million circuits in the same space.) ...

Has the end been reached in the feasible size reduction of computer circuitry? Hardly. As just noted, it is now possible to pack over 100,000 components on a thin square inch wafer. One scientist recently speculated than a decade or so it may be possible to achieve such packing density throughout a cubic inch of material. The density of electronic components would then be "about a fourth of the density of nerve cells in the human brain." [cite F. G. Heath, Scientific American, 1970, p. 22]
--=====================_9933796==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 14:50:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45Lo2bG030326; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:50:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45Lo0GZ030290; Thu, 5 May 2005 14:50:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:50:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHuvGWchBAoRX4lM6ycaigXG9q2/CkASvfQ== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.38.136] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 21:48:27 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Today's date X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050505.144856.10176.111416 webmail27.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:520870257 Resent-Message-ID: <9q9sXC.A.KZH.HUpeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is not today Cingo-de-mayo- the celibration of Mexicos triumph over Maximillian?- Ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 15:27:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45MRLbG008077; Thu, 5 May 2005 15:27:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45MRHQh008048; Thu, 5 May 2005 15:27:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:27:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YyGsO0fg45KLLgyhSYLXrU/+gf8zC1+aDHuCwAU0mHonS3kKTg/ljQsaph2Z8raKTfdKA5t5OgTxExmezhy5IidJqfZnKEsecrvDahS8frFSKVXMJ2b/AALyOvrEodeDEHBQ/loEqMEcxqV8dazh25RHuq6NgJDXd+jGfy0JbQE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:00:27 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Today's date In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505151842.03255540 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j45MRBbG008005 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: but which is which? (bloody reply going to person, not list.) and in response keith "is a thing worthless becuase it is new? has it worth then because it is old? where the diamond has first pierced the way the softest silk can thread the pearl" unnattributed sanskrit poet. written approx 18-20 hundred years ago. On 5/5/05, Keith Nagel wrote: > And more importantly, my birthday. > > Perhaps some Tennyson is in order. > > ************************************************* > FIVE years have past; five summers, with the length > Of five long winters! and again I hear > These waters, rolling from their mountain-springs > With a soft inland murmur.--Once again > ************************************************* > > or as we might say in NYC, > > ************************************************* > DOGG check it, > I am by this creek, > for five damn weeks, > and I got hell of emotions... > ...in my brain. > Word up, Peeps. > ************************************************* > > From the sublime to the ridiculous. > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 3:19 PM > To: vortex-L eskimo.com > Subject: OFF TOPIC Today's date > > Today is 05/05/05. > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 15:40:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45Me0bG013855; Thu, 5 May 2005 15:40:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45McIfQ013071; Thu, 5 May 2005 15:38:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:38:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505174405.032598a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 18:04:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed about Mills In-Reply-To: <41b61h$7vkv1h mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41b61h$7vkv1h mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Obviously, the book made no reference at all to the possibility that any >of the companies who worked on developing the chip had been influenced by >any kind of so-called "alien technology." That hypothesis is damned nonsense! It is pernicious, dangerous nonsense. I personally know some of the people who invented ICs, and I know most of the ones who discovered CF. I am quite sure they got no help from Little Green men or anyone else. Mainly they had to fight against aliens -- that is to say, against people stuck in the premodern, prescientific mindset. All of the advances made in integrated circuits and other electronics were made in well-documented research conducted by ordinary human beings. These people are all well known and there is no doubt they did all the research on their own without prompting from alien technology. This kind of thinking disturbs me. It boils down to the notion that people are not capable of doing what we have actually done. The corollary is that we are somehow incapable of making revolutionary changes or revitalizing civilization. During the dark ages, Europeans looked at the ruins of ancient Roman buildings and roads, and they got the idea that these things were created by God-like Superman or people who were aided by magic. They decided the world must have gone downhill, and they would never be achieve such magnificent accomplishments again. Nowadays people natter on about the "greatest generation" as if there is something special about Depression-era people, and we will not see their likes again. As the Duke of Albany put it: "The oldest have borne most; we that are young Shall never see so much, nor live so long." This degenerates into the "end of history" and "the end of science" pathologies. One of the important themes of my book is that mankind has made revolutionary wholesale changes many times in the past, and there is no reason to think we have somehow lost that ability and we will not make more changes in the future. If people come to believe we are helpless infants who cannot develop CF or anything else, it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 16:17:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45NH2bG029292; Thu, 5 May 2005 16:17:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45NH0JW029255; Thu, 5 May 2005 16:17:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:17:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050505191424.00ba7360 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:16:43 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: ICCF-11 papers are depressing In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050502173725.0322bb90 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:43 PM 5/2/2005, Rothwellwrote: >This field is dying, and I cannot think of any way to save it. > >- Jed > Utter nonsense. Cold fusion research and development is (and has been) very much alive. Success in the field requires advanced calculus, metallurgy and engineering. Much will be covered at the 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium. http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html also: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 16:20:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45NKSbG030695; Thu, 5 May 2005 16:20:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45NKOFS030670; Thu, 5 May 2005 16:20:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:20:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050505190616.01fd9d78 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:13:50 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Jed about Mills In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40 pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:54 PM 5/5/2005, Rothwell wrote: >There have been no LENR demos! Demos may not even be possible. Utter nonsense. JET Thermal Products gave an open demonstration of a robust cold fusion Phusor system at MIT for a week at ICCF10. John Dash also gave a demonstration on that Tuesday. But then these demonstations were of overunity cold fusion systems. By contrast, the (misnamed) LENR probably cannot give a similar demonstation. ;-)X Demonstration URL is here: http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html More on the Phusor system is here: http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html Mitchell Swartz ============================================================ Dr. Mitchell Swartz JET Thermal Products PO Box 81135 Wellesley Hills, MA 02481 mica world.std.com =============================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 16:34:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45NYgbG004372; Thu, 5 May 2005 16:34:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45NYZuA004267; Thu, 5 May 2005 16:34:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:34:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427AADA9.2060608 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:35:05 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed about Mills References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60@pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40@pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3vrAgC.A.eCB.J2qeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > By 1971 integrated circuits were already one of the largest industries > on earth. Indeed. The HP35 scientific calculator was introduced when I was a sophomore at GaTech in 1973. It cost $635. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 16:56:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j45NuHbG024117; Thu, 5 May 2005 16:56:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j45NuFiB024080; Thu, 5 May 2005 16:56:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:56:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427AB2BD.2040802 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:56:45 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Today's date References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >And more importantly, my birthday. > > Bully! My mother 5/1 My first wife 5/5 My current wife 5/9 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 18:37:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j461bQqg010372; Thu, 5 May 2005 18:37:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j461bOvC010362; Thu, 5 May 2005 18:37:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:37:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41do9c$80j9j7 mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,158,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="269067879:sNHT13035736" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 21:37:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > This kind of thinking disturbs me. It boils down to the > notion that people are not capable of doing what we > have actually done. The corollary is that we are somehow > incapable of making revolutionary changes or revitalizing > civilization. ... Lighten up Jed. The world will not fall just because some people claim aliens were responsible for giving us...well Velcro for one thing! Oh! Wait a minute Velcro came from T?Pol's great great grand mother when their secret Vulcan expedition to our planet malfunctioned and they became temporarily stranded on our planet back in the 1950s! What I find amusing is not the raging debates on whether our planet had been visited by aliens. What?s more amusing to me is how upset certain individuals get when it is implied ever so lightly that we may have actually gotten something from them. You are aware of the Brooking?s Institute paper commissioned back in the 1960 on what the impact would be on our society if we were to discover we were not alone in the universe. BTW: Just to be clear on this, I'm NOT arguing that aliens gave us IC. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 19:07:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4627Wqg027536; Thu, 5 May 2005 19:07:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4627TnW027505; Thu, 5 May 2005 19:07:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:07:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004001c551e0$58af6120$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Koldomasov and Joule Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:07:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder writes, > But, at a recent conference, a Russian scientist, > A.I. Koldomasov [snip] > http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldomasov.html It's another kind of cavitation reaction, but I'm almost certain that Prof. Kowalski considers this one to be suspicious. However, there is an excellent reference on his site to a strong paper from ICCF11 co-written by Miley: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/209australia.html Steve has included this in his abstracts of ICCF 11: www.newenergytimes.com/ICCF11/ICCF11Abstracts.pdf Part of the broader subject of this paper has been suggested in vortex posts for years. Basically it is this: physicists like to categorize energy reactions neatly as either chemical (involving outer electrons), or nuclear. However, in many "condensed matter" situations there is a third category involving the innermost electrons - the two closest to the nucleus in the K-shell. At one time we were calling this type of reaction "supra-chemical" but now it seems to be lumped into LENR, even though is not nuclear and not really chemical either. The average energy per atom is about 10-20 keV which is 5000 times higher than chemcial but 50 times less than nuclear at the low end of the nuclear energy spectrum. These reactions have military significance as well (high explosives - or ballotechnics), and that could be part of the problem with the whole field getting the kind of public financial attention which it needs. In fact if ZPE plays a role in LENR, it is probably through this type of supra-chemical reaction, because ZPE (in Dirac terms) is likely to materialize in CF situations as an epo (positronium) interfacial reaction, where the Ps interferers with the normal dynamics of a proton or deuteron allowing it to near the K-shell. The authors do not go that far, but say: "It is a well known fact that there is a basic difference between the usual nuclear reactions in fm distance needing energies above MeV and between the fusion reaction of deuterium or tritium and other light nuclei where energies of few keV are necessary only and the reactions occur at fifty to hundred times larger distances." If Miley is partly correct, and ZPE is also involved in some of these OU situations, then one can possibly design a "coulomb slingshot" effect to protons into the k-shell electrons of target nuclei at a rate of acceleration (jerk or jounce) that keeps them from prior interaction with outer electrons BUT the idea is not to fuse them (which is low probability) but to let them be flung out with more energy than it took to get them in... But to push a proton in that fast requires several megabars of equivalent pressure applied very rapidly. A chemical reaction - explosion, has almost enough, and if "bootstrapped"... who knows? The newest generation of semiconductor laser arrays are efficient enough so that the added input of a pulse of coherent light at the moment of ignition in an ICE engine might return far more energy than the laser uses - from ZPE-enhanced K-shell interaction ? Jones OT: Silly Joke Dept: What Do Eskimos Get From Sitting On The Ice too Long? ....Polaroid's What Do You Call a Boomerang That Doesn't work? ....A Stick How Do You Get Holy Water? .....You Boil The Hell Out Of It. What Do Fish Say When They Hit a Concrete Wall? .....Dam! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 20:00:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4630CWa018858; Thu, 5 May 2005 20:00:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j463096M018835; Thu, 5 May 2005 20:00:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:00:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 22:03:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <20050505185310.B4C533E5E xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A A cynic is nothing more than a frustrated optimist... this list abounds with cynics. Watson, if that was the same person who used that name before, played on that defect we all seem to share. Our willingness to suspend doubt and replace it with hope. Worse yet, he managed to fleece a few of us too (not me so I must temper my indignation). I say good riddance. Maybe Newman will let him post to his list... add a couple of batteries to SMOT and he'll fit right in over there... 8^) -john -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 1:53 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Aw, c'mon, Bill. Don't you think you're being unkind to the morally handicapped? I was sort of getting kick out the dodging and weaving. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 05/05/04 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 5 20:21:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j463LaWa029326; Thu, 5 May 2005 20:21:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j463LXrJ029297; Thu, 5 May 2005 20:21:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:21:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427AE2B4.20101 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 23:21:24 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed about Mills References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60@pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40@pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9wbHGD.A.jJH.9KueCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> Pay attention: target "was". He did get investments from electric >> utilities. > > > He and others would have billions of dollars to work with if only he > would take steps to convince the world the effect is real. He'd also be in line for Nobel prize, assuming his theory has something to do with the results he's obtained (not a foregone conclusion, of course). [ ... ] > The only similar [runs-on-demand] device in CF that was ever developed > was the Patterson cell, which was deliberately hidden the same way > Mills hid his devices. Didn't the Patterson cell suffer from "Dr. Jekyll syndrome"? That is, they had one (1) batch of beads which worked, and they didn't realize until they'd used them up that there was something funny about that batch -- no other batch of beads ever behaved the same way, and nobody could figure out why. That obviously wasn't something they would have expected or planned for. Patterson apparently thought he had the reproducibility problem licked cold. Had he known in advance what was going to happen with the beads the situation might have been handled differently. As I recall, he also published his technique, including a description of the beads, but nobody else could make it work from his published documents. After Patterson ran out of the Magic Batch of Beads it became a lot clearer why other researches had been having trouble duplicating his work: it wasn't just that he was hiding some details. Anyway, that's how I understood the tale. As always I'm happy to be corrected :-). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 02:44:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j469iUoi013945; Fri, 6 May 2005 02:44:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j469iRlr013911; Fri, 6 May 2005 02:44:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 02:44:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4272EAB2.5030307 bellsouth.net> References: <4272EAB2.5030307 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 23:44:07 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Kewl UFO Photo Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <4seKtC.A.TZD.7xzeCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The *English* have UFOs? We're doomed now for sure. - Rick >Here: > >http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page923.html > >A similar sighting was made in Texas who's magnified image showed English text. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 06:43:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46DhWoi006972; Fri, 6 May 2005 06:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46Dgv6D006568; Fri, 6 May 2005 06:42:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:42:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Kewl UFO Photo Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 9:40:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050506134046.GCYF2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <_Dq7WC.A.TmB.eR3eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Rick Monteverde > > The *English* have UFOs? We're doomed now for sure. The only danger will be falling objects. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 06:50:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46Dngoi011944; Fri, 6 May 2005 06:49:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46DnaU5011874; Fri, 6 May 2005 06:49:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:49:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506094720.03251a70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 09:49:19 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Koldomasov and Joule In-Reply-To: <004001c551e0$58af6120$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <004001c551e0$58af6120$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >However, there is an excellent reference on his site to a strong paper >from ICCF11 co-written by Miley: >http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/209australia.html I uploaded that paper yesterday: HoraHlowenergyna.pdf I think I have uploaded all of the ones that do not require editing, or that were in Acrobat format in the first place. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 06:55:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46DsIoi014239; Fri, 6 May 2005 06:54:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46DsDZp014196; Fri, 6 May 2005 06:54:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:54:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c55243$023f0c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Biomass ethanol has arrived Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:53:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes... It seems they know how to do more than consume vast amounts of cheap alcohol at Frat parties in Gainesville .... http://news.ifas.ufl.edu/story.php?id=963 Genetic engineering of a common bacteria ... e coli... First time that I've heard that a competitive price can be achieved : "we can use this new technology to produce ethanol for about $1.30 a gallon," "Ethanol will stretch the nation's fuel supply and make gasoline burn more cleanly. Gasoline-ethanol blends also boost the octane rating of automotive fuel." Since this can be implemented so quickly, it should help to keep the price of gasoline below the ever approaching $3gallon figure. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 06:59:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46Dwuoi016737; Fri, 6 May 2005 06:58:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46DwR6F016445; Fri, 6 May 2005 06:58:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:58:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506095039.03251e20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 09:57:48 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed about Mills In-Reply-To: <427AE2B4.20101 pobox.com> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40 pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> <427AE2B4.20101 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_CVnU.A.qAE.Bg3eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Didn't the Patterson cell suffer from "Dr. Jekyll syndrome"? That is, >they had one (1) batch of beads which worked, and they didn't realize >until they'd used them up that there was something funny about that batch >-- no other batch of beads ever behaved the same way, and nobody could >figure out why. Some people told me that, include Gene Mallove as I recall. Others disagree. I asked Patterson directly, and he told me he can make as many beads as he wants, and this is not a problem. I asked him why he is not doing demos, but I do not recall his answer. It was something vague. I got the impression he simply lost heart after his grandson Reding died. I do not know what to make of it. Assume for a moment the story is true. It indicates gross negligence and incredible stupidity. Imagine using up an entire batch without trying to make more along the way! How could they not "realize until they'd used them up"? What were they thinking? When they had a few hundred milliliters left they should have declared an emergency and pulled out the stops to do everything they could to reproduce the remaining ones, and they should have stopped testing them with a device that flowed oxygen pass the beads gradually destroying them. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 07:38:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46EcNoi012514; Fri, 6 May 2005 07:38:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46EcJ9q012429; Fri, 6 May 2005 07:38:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 07:38:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506093808.03257060 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 09:45:10 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: CF demonstrations In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20050505190616.01fd9d78 pop.theworld.com> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40 pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050505190616.01fd9d78 pop.theworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8OJW3D.A.vBD.YF4eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>There have been no LENR demos! Demos may not even be possible. > > Utter nonsense. JET Thermal Products gave an open demonstration of a > robust cold >fusion Phusor system at MIT for a week at ICCF10. Good point. I forgot about that one. I do not think it convinced many people, because the calorimetry is so exotic, the demo has not been repeated as far as I know, and no one has replicated or independently verified the device as far as I know. (Swartz claims people have replicated, but I have no information about this, such as the names of the people or reports they may have written.) There were also demonstrations by Patterson, that might have easily led to the widespread acceptance of CF, but they were cut off. >John Dash also gave a demonstration on that Tuesday. That was lovely, and it was great for high school students, but not convincing. The calorimetry is very primitive. Storms wrote a paper describing many of the potential problems with that approach: "Calorimetry 101 for Cold Fusion; Methods, Problems and Errors." >But then these demonstations were of overunity cold fusion systems. >By contrast, the (misnamed) LENR probably cannot give a similar >demonstation. ;-)X What is the difference between these systems and LENR? As far as I know the two mean exactly the same thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 07:40:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46EeCoi014066; Fri, 6 May 2005 07:40:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46EeBc2014046; Fri, 6 May 2005 07:40:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 07:40:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506103649.03252390 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 10:39:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: CF demonstrations COPY 2? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [I sent this before but it did not come back to me. This version has a few corrections] Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>There have been no LENR demos! Demos may not even be possible. > > Utter nonsense. JET Thermal Products gave an open demonstration of a > robust cold >fusion Phusor system at MIT for a week at ICCF10. Good point. I forgot about that one. I do not think it convinced many people, because the calorimetry is so exotic, and because as far as I know the demo has not been repeated or documented, and no one has replicated or independently verified the device. (Swartz claims people have replicated, but I have no information about this, such as the names of the people or reports they may have written. He may have published a description but I have not seen it. Unlike the skeptics, I am not endowed with ESP and I know nothing about papers I have not seen.) There were also demonstrations by Patterson, that might have easily led to the widespread acceptance of CF, but they were cut off. >John Dash also gave a demonstration on that Tuesday. That was lovely, and it was great for high school students, but not convincing. The calorimetry is very primitive. Storms wrote a paper describing many of the potential problems with that approach: "Calorimetry 101 for Cold Fusion; Methods, Problems and Errors." >But then these demonstations were of overunity cold fusion systems. By >contrast, the (misnamed) LENR probably cannot give a similar >demonstation. ;-)X What is the difference between "overunity cold fusion systems" and LENR? As far as I know the two mean exactly the same thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 07:47:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46Eksoi018970; Fri, 6 May 2005 07:46:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46EkRQo018494; Fri, 6 May 2005 07:46:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 07:46:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050506154624.006bd234 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 15:46:24 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Koldomasov and Joule Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j46EkJoi018351 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:14 pm 05-05-05 -0500, you wrote: > > >"One of the most important achievements of the 19th century physics was the >discovery that a well defined emount of mechanical work is needed to >generate one unit of heat -- not less and not more. Joule demonstrated this >in a well known paddle wheel experiment. Water was forced to flow through >small holes in the paddles of a rotating wheel and the amount of heat was >measured calorimetrically. But, at a recent conference, a Russian scientist, >A.I. Koldomasov (1), described an exception from this rule. He claims to >have a device in which the heat to work ratio is twenty times larger than >what would be allowed according to Joulešs equivalence rule... > >more here > >http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldomasov.html >From my perspective, the interesting bit of the above web page is the following. ================================================= By changing the electric motor rotation rate, we change the frequency of flow pulsation's and reach the resonance frequency of the orifice, which causes intensive cavitation. ================================================ More specifically the "intensive cavitation" bit. Intensive cavitation implies high pF. Unfortunately it seems very difficult to get people used to the idea that there can be such a thing as a Beta-aether vacuum - let alone a Beta aether which exerts the tremendous stresses responsible for holding engineering scale materials as steel and concrete together. Blast that fellow Newton - and his action at a distance. ;-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 08:03:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46F32oi029918; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:03:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46F2vCW029867; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:02:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:02:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506105136.03257060 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 11:02:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Koldomasov and Joule and the poetry of D. H. Rumsfeld In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050506154624.006bd234 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050506154624.006bd234 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5632500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_5632500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Grimer quotes Kowalski, artfully rearranging the lines from his paper to=20 form the last stanza from a sonnet: > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D > By changing the electric motor rotation rate, > we change the frequency of flow pulsation's > and reach the resonance frequency of the orifice, > which causes intensive cavitation. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It's May, and we seem to be in a poetic mood. Kowalski's lines remind me of= =20 an article in Slate magazine titled "The Poetry of D. H. Rumsfeld": http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042 It is actually rather nice. Two examples: The Unknown As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. Glass Box You know, it's the old glass box at the=AD At the gas station, Where you're using those little things Trying to pick up the prize, And you can't find it. It's=AD And it's all these arms are going down in there, And so you keep dropping it And picking it up again and moving it, But=AD Some of you are probably too young to remember those=AD Those glass boxes, But=AD But they used to have them At all the gas stations When I was a kid. --=====================_5632500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Grimer quotes Kowalski, artfully rearranging the lines from his paper to form the last stanza from a sonnet:

   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    By changing the electric motor rotation rate, 
    we change the frequency of flow pulsation's
    and reach the resonance frequency of the orifice,
    which causes intensive cavitation.
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
It's May, and we seem to be in a poetic mood. Kowalski's lines remind me of an article in Slate magazine titled "The Poetry of D. H. Rumsfeld":

http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042

It is actually rather nice. Two examples:

The Unknown

As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.


Glass Box

You know, it's the old glass box at the=AD
At the gas station,
Where you're using those little things
Trying to pick up the prize,
And you can't find it.
It's=AD

And it's all these arms are going down in there,
And so you keep dropping it
And picking it up again and moving it,
But=AD

Some of you are probably too young to remember those=AD
Those glass boxes,
But=AD

But they used to have them
At all the gas stations
When I was a kid.
--=====================_5632500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 08:08:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46F7ooi000598; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:07:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46F7f8V000549; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:07:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:07:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050506160740.006c5014 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 16:07:40 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:35 pm 05-05-05 -0400, you wrote: > > >Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> By 1971 integrated circuits were already one of the largest industries >> on earth. > > >Indeed. The HP35 scientific calculator was introduced when I was a >sophomore at GaTech in 1973. It cost $635. > I got my lab to buy me one complete with little magnetic strip you could feed through them. They were fantastic at the time. Such was the pace of progress that a few years later they were in the South Kensington Science Museum as museum pieces. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 08:20:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46FKEoi009662; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:20:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46FJkvP008875; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:19:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:19:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427B8AF4.8090806 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 11:19:16 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed about Mills References: <2.2.32.20050506160740.006c5014 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050506160740.006c5014 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: >At 07:35 pm 05-05-05 -0400, you wrote: > > >>Jed Rothwell wrote: >> >> >> >>>By 1971 integrated circuits were already one of the largest industries >>>on earth. >>> >>> >>Indeed. The HP35 scientific calculator was introduced when I was a >>sophomore at GaTech in 1973. It cost $635. >> >> >> > > >I got my lab to buy me one complete with little magnetic strip you >could feed through them. > That was the HP-65 you're thinking of. It was programmable and read little mag cards. The HP-35 had no such option. The HP-55 was an HP-65 without a card reader. Pretty useless, since it lost its memory when you turned the power off, and it used an LED display so you couldn't just leave it turned on all the time, but it was a lot cheaper than the 65 and I knew people who thought they were really cool. I remember speculation that HP might conceivably introduce a version of the 55 which used core memory so it could retain its programs across power-offs, but of course core was already a dead-ended technology at that point. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 08:38:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46Fcdoi024747; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:38:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46FcLZn024366; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:38:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:38:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:37:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050506153812.KWAU2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Grimer > I got my lab to buy me one complete with little magnetic strip you > could feed through them. They were fantastic at the time. Such was > the pace of progress that a few years later they were in the South > Kensington Science Museum as museum pieces. Yeah, we bought one as an option to a spectrum analyzer :-) But, the strip programmable ones came later. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 08:43:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46Fgeoi028334; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:42:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46Ffge5027365; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:41:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:41:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:40:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050506154035.KYQR2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > I remember speculation that HP might conceivably introduce a version of > the 55 which used core memory so it could retain its programs across > power-offs, but of course core was already a dead-ended technology at > that point. Wanna bet? Shuttle used core memory (for reliability purposes) well into the 80s! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 08:48:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46FmLoi001874; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:48:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46Fm5nu001623; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:48:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:48:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004901c55252$3edbb830$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050506154624.006bd234 pop.freeserve.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050506105136.03257060@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Koldomasov and Joule and the poetry of D. H. Rumsfeld Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:42:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <81pTt.A.NZ.1G5eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you hadn't disclosed the name of the author, who is living proof of Woodrow Wilson's astute adage that "Wisdom doesn't necessarily come with age. Sometimes age [and ignorance] just shows up by itself."-- The Unknown As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. It would sure sound like a very funny stand-up routine (and meant to be that way) ... or Yogism knock-off ... ... or is it more like the "who's on first" shtick ? However, like the sayer of "I am the master of low expectations" it is becomming clearer by the day that the "unknown knowns" outweigh the "known knowns" by a wide margin in the halls of power... Jones Just last week we were treated to this: "It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way."-Washington, DC, April 28, 2005. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 08:58:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46FwJoi009939; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:58:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46FwG2i009882; Fri, 6 May 2005 08:58:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:58:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005c01c55254$5a5f9070$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050506154035.KYQR2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: The core of the Hubble problem Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:57:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Wanna bet? Shuttle used core memory (for reliability purposes) > well into the 80s! Even beyond the 80s, NASA is plagued (or blessed) by DRO... The original equipment on Hubble was/is a computer called the DF-224. It is an 8-bit computer with 64K CORE memory. It has proven reliable and works in Space, but obviously it does not have the capability of any teenager's iPOD or cell phone. During the First Servicing Mission in 1993, a 386-based (wow!) coprocessor setup for the DF-224 was installed which provided some redundancy and extra memory. However, the DF-224 is still the main computer. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 09:03:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46G3Uoi013751; Fri, 6 May 2005 09:03:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46G1lqB012418; Fri, 6 May 2005 09:01:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:01:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Concrete for Frank Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:04:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For our resident "concrete head", http://www.physorg.com/news3985.html wow! not sure what you'd build with that stuff, but it sure can flex. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 09:41:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46GfXoi007509; Fri, 6 May 2005 09:41:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46GfPnI007422; Fri, 6 May 2005 09:41:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:41:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506113231.03254680 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 11:46:30 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: "Dead end core memory" returns In-Reply-To: <427B8AF4.8090806 pobox.com> References: <2.2.32.20050506160740.006c5014 pop.freeserve.net> <427B8AF4.8090806 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j46GfJoi007207 Resent-Message-ID: <6SHDgC.A.vzB.045eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >I remember speculation that HP might conceivably introduce a version of >the 55 which used core memory so it could retain its programs across >power-offs, but of course core was already a dead-ended technology at that >point. As Arthur C. Clarke put it, man never stops using a tool. Once you invent something it stays in use more or less forever, coming back to life in different reincarnations. See: http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/2219411 "IBM, Infineon Develop Better Magnetic Memory By Michael Singer What if you could turn computers on and off as quickly as a light switch without having to wait for software to "boot up"? Sound like science fiction?" No, it sounds like 1962, or the core-memory central office telephone switches that were still being installed in the late 1970s. I described some amusing examples of reinvention in this essay: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistora.pdf See the photo of the airplane that was parked outside my office a few years ago. Caption: A Piaggio P180 Avanti. The company claims, "The Avanti was developed by discarding conventional aeronautical thinking!" - http://www.piaggioamerica.com/, but ironically this design is reminiscent of history’s first airplanes, the 1903 - 1909 Wright Flyers, with a canard wing forward and twin [counterrotating] pusher propellers mounted on the wings. And this fascinating quote from Eddy & Potter: ". . . the commercial development of the turbine passed through some paradoxical stages before arriving at the present big jet era. Contrary to one standard illusion, modern technology does not advance with breathtaking speed along a predictable linear track. Progress goes hesitantly much of the time, some­times encountering long fallow periods and often doubling back unpredictably upon its path." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 09:49:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46Gmeoi012437; Fri, 6 May 2005 09:48:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46GmSV5012277; Fri, 6 May 2005 09:48:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:48:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The core of the Hubble problem Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:47:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <005c01c55254$5a5f9070$6401a8c0 NuDell> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <8XTUfC.A.n_C.a_5eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm surprised they haven't switched to bubble memory. Data density would be vastly improved, with the same resistance to cosmic ray corruption that the cores provide. I used to strip old core planes for the cores, they made good nonlinear transmission lines inductors when strung together on a single wire. I often see shuttle personnel with laptops, are they somehow hardened or do they just accept the occasional bluescreen as they are not mission critical? K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 11:58 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The core of the Hubble problem ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Wanna bet? Shuttle used core memory (for reliability purposes) > well into the 80s! Even beyond the 80s, NASA is plagued (or blessed) by DRO... The original equipment on Hubble was/is a computer called the DF-224. It is an 8-bit computer with 64K CORE memory. It has proven reliable and works in Space, but obviously it does not have the capability of any teenager's iPOD or cell phone. During the First Servicing Mission in 1993, a 386-based (wow!) coprocessor setup for the DF-224 was installed which provided some redundancy and extra memory. However, the DF-224 is still the main computer. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 10:13:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46HCfoi032726; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:12:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46HCYHY032669; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:12:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:12:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050506181236.006dc190 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 18:12:36 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:19 am 06-05-05 -0400, you wrote: > > >Grimer wrote: > >>At 07:35 pm 05-05-05 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >>>Jed Rothwell wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>By 1971 integrated circuits were already one of the largest industries >>>>on earth. >>>> >>>> >>>Indeed. The HP35 scientific calculator was introduced when I was a >>>sophomore at GaTech in 1973. It cost $635. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>I got my lab to buy me one complete with little magnetic strip you >>could feed through them. >> >That was the HP-65 you're thinking of. It was programmable and read >little mag cards. The HP-35 had no such option. Quite right. Now you've jogged my memory I recall that I started off with the HP-35 which I thought was terrific - but when they introduced the HP-65 [which really got me salivating ;-) ] - I persuaded the department to supersize me and I passed on the HP-35 to my Higher Experimental Officer. One advantage of being the boss is you get to play with the toys first. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 10:20:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46HJRoi005164; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:19:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46HJEP3005084; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:19:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:19:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: OT: Poets and Ninja warriors Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:18:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050506171845.OTDU2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9TBxHD.A.JPB.Qc6eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Keith Nagel" > OTOH, our nations poet laureate is well known to be my fellow NY'er > and all around groovy fellow, William Jefferson Clinton. Consider > this short masterpiece, > > *************************************** > There Are No Curtains > --------------------- > There are no curtains in the oval office > There are no curtains on my private office > There are no curtains or blinds that can close > the windows in my private dining room. > > The naval aides come and go at will. > *************************************** More likely, 'navel'. :-Ţ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 10:34:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46HUDpS013885; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:33:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46GjBTF009486; Fri, 6 May 2005 09:45:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:45:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: OT: Poets and Ninja warriors Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:47:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506105136.03257060 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <9ZVvL.A._TC.W85eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes ( of DRs work ): >It is actually rather nice. Two examples: Amateur doggerel!!! As is well know to every school child, Don Rumsfeld is our master ninja warrior, hardly a wordsmith. His fighting styles are his poetry, manifold and peerless. As shown in the link below... http://www.poe-news.com/features.php?feat=31845 My personal favorite is the subtle corporate styling of the "coffee palm". Underlings and toadys beware! OTOH, our nations poet laureate is well known to be my fellow NY'er and all around groovy fellow, William Jefferson Clinton. Consider this short masterpiece, *************************************** There Are No Curtains --------------------- There are no curtains in the oval office There are no curtains on my private office There are no curtains or blinds that can close the windows in my private dining room. The naval aides come and go at will. *************************************** Note how he uses repetition, and variation, to achieve a building effect, like a good jazz chord progression, with a marvelous bridge. His most popular work, often quoted to me by Terry Blanton, follows. *************************************** The Word Is ----------- It depends on what the meaning of the word "is", is. If the- If he- if "is" means is and never has been that is not- that is one thing. If it means there is one, that was a completely true statement. *************************************** Clinton fractures and explodes sentence and form in a completely postmodern display of pure rythym and cadence, reminiscient of the Beat masters such as Burroughs and Ferlenghetti. Ahhh, sweet music to my sore ears. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 11:03 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Koldomasov and Joule and the poetry of D. H. Rumsfeld Grimer quotes Kowalski, artfully rearranging the lines from his paper to form the last stanza from a sonnet: ================================================= By changing the electric motor rotation rate, we change the frequency of flow pulsation's and reach the resonance frequency of the orifice, which causes intensive cavitation. ================================================ It's May, and we seem to be in a poetic mood. Kowalski's lines remind me of an article in Slate magazine titled "The Poetry of D. H. Rumsfeld": http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042 It is actually rather nice. Two examples: The Unknown As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. Glass Box You know, it's the old glass box at the­ At the gas station, Where you're using those little things Trying to pick up the prize, And you can't find it. It's­ And it's all these arms are going down in there, And so you keep dropping it And picking it up again and moving it, But­ Some of you are probably too young to remember those­ Those glass boxes, But­ But they used to have them At all the gas stations When I was a kid. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 10:39:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46Hcboi020786; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:38:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46HaicB020015; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:36:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:36:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YJ1RXD4ykXZ8i2azduGjuMPOkQF4RH2/Jvvh6IGK3DEzCLo2X97ds46VaF7Q0zC79Rz3ZuVEN/CymoLGjLh0k/feLDn/66+8YuQWLd36rzCVu/V5FgMhSIzvB+7E6181BNQeVt56FDlcr2ys8I7YLoTJgEGn9HnpGIDz4mH0Ovg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:36:16 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Poets and Ninja warriors In-Reply-To: <20050506171845.OTDU2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050506171845.OTDU2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j46HaYoi019870 Resent-Message-ID: <86woVD.A.c4E.qs6eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: or marital... On 5/6/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > From: "Keith Nagel" > > > > > OTOH, our nations poet laureate is well known to be my fellow NY'er > > and all around groovy fellow, William Jefferson Clinton. Consider > > this short masterpiece, > > > > *************************************** > > There Are No Curtains > > --------------------- > > There are no curtains in the oval office > > There are no curtains on my private office > > There are no curtains or blinds that can close > > the windows in my private dining room. > > > > The naval aides come and go at will. > > *************************************** > > More likely, 'navel'. :-Ţ > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 10:49:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46Hng0R029092; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:49:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46Hncl9029053; Fri, 6 May 2005 10:49:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:49:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050506184940.006b3fcc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 18:49:40 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Concrete for Frank Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:04 pm 06-05-05 -0400, you wrote: >For our resident "concrete head", > >http://www.physorg.com/news3985.html > >wow! not sure what you'd build with that stuff, >but it sure can flex. > >K. It can now - but so did GRC initially. The critical question is, can it flex in 5, 10, 20 years time. Fortunately, thanks to an engineer's resistance to being bullied by commercial stupidity (and cupidity), PB were prevented from using GRC in structural members. Consequently, when it did all fail after 5 years, no-one was killed. If the Shuttle engineers had resisted as strongly 7 NASA astronauts would still be alive today. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 11:52:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46IqWXn004473; Fri, 6 May 2005 11:52:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46IqIc2004324; Fri, 6 May 2005 11:52:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:52:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:48:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: (OT) labour of the Sun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1096717198==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1096717198==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I've been reading a webpage on Catholic prophecies http://aoreport.com/200504news_rccpapalprophecy.htm There was a man, St. Malachy who in the 12th century, had a vision of the next 112 popes. The prophecy for 110, John Paul II was labour (eclipse) of the Sun. He was born and buried on a Solar eclipse. I'm wondering how to calculate the probability of that happening? The site also mentioned a hybrid solar eclipse, and gave this website http://space.com/spacewatch/050401_solar_eclipse.html --============_-1096717198==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" (OT) labour of the Sun
I've been reading a webpage on Catholic prophecies http://aoreport.com/200504news_rccpapalprophecy.htm

There was a man, St. Malachy who in the 12th century, had a vision of the next 112 popes. The prophecy for 110, John Paul II was labour (eclipse) of the Sun. He was born and buried on a Solar eclipse. I'm wondering how to calculate the probability of that happening? The site also mentioned a hybrid solar eclipse, and gave this website
http://space.com/spacewatch/050401_solar_eclipse.html
--============_-1096717198==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 11:59:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46IwuXn008476; Fri, 6 May 2005 11:58:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46IwrMv008447; Fri, 6 May 2005 11:58:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:58:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Dead core memory returns X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050506185841.A263C3AD9 xprdmailfe9.nwk.excite.com> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Fri 05/06, Jed Rothwell < jedrothwell mindspring.com > wrote: > What if you could turn computers on and off as quickly as a light switch > without having to wait for software to "boot up"? Sound like science fiction?" > No, it sounds like 1962, or the core-memory central office telephone > switches that were still being installed in the late 1970s. Also my old Commodore 64. I still have fits of wistful nostalgia about it. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 12:00:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46J0CXt009405; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:00:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46IRA2a022626; Fri, 6 May 2005 11:27:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:27:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:27:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Schwartz's website Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I visited the website, http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html . I noted with interest his use of high voltage, shades of the plasma discharge reactor. I didn't notice energy out verses energy it, What do the rest of you think? Mitchell thinks that he's on to something, but he wouldn't be the first inventor to believe that, eh? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 12:15:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46JEaXn016715; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:14:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46JEOw9016613; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:14:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:14:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <8014e60d-7a00-4a6c-896e-a07ae3b87a00> Message-ID: <011901c5526f$9902c430$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <41b61h$7vkv1h mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Corso & Technology Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 15:03:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve wrote about a conversation with Corso, who claimed to have seen transistor and fiber optics technology recovered from UFOs, and showing them at US research labs, and the claim that these developments came from alien technology. Makes nice press. One can jump to conclusions about stupid humans by overlooking the continuous thread of development of these technologies extending back into the 1800s. All this is well documented and obvious to one with the technical understanding necessary to read the literature. But it's not surprising that a UFO would contain microelectronics and fiber optics. They are markers of a certain level of civilization, like the stone, bronze, and iron ages. What is really interesting are the energy and propulsion technologies involved. These lie beyond the general knowledge of present physics. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 12:18:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46JHeXn018767; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:17:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46JEQNk016644; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:14:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:14:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <8014e60d-7a00-4a6c-896e-a07ae3b87a00> Message-ID: <011801c5526f$98c015e0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60@pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40@pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:54:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > >Pay attention: target "was". He did get investments from electric utilities. > > He and others would have billions of dollars to work with if only he would > take steps to convince the world the effect is real. He would have > literally hundreds of thousands of times more manpower and money to devote > to the problem, and this would increase the value of his patent by an > unimaginable extent. Let's see: Mills has published his book and updated it periodically. He has sponsored experimental work at universities and reputable laboratories before acquiring the present property. He has posted detailed reports on a long series of experiemts on his website. He has published critical papers in leading scientific journals, including the Journal of Applied Physics, and IEEE journals. Key effects have been duplicated by others (Conrads, Phillips). These are all the steps expected by the scientific and industrail establishment to build credibility. What Jed apparently wants is the equivalent of Morrison's hot cup of tea. Well, it hasn't happened in the CfFworld either, despite Jed's urging. > > > >If Mills had been Columbus he would have kept it the > > > discovery secret, and in 1505 he would still be negotiating the property > > > rights to Hispaniola. Oh, please. Mills has kept nothing secret. There is no secret to anyone who has been paying close attention and who understands the the physics involved. There is only ***one*** key discovery, well published, and that is the existence of the sub-quantum state and the catalytic reactions that produce it. It is the systematic denial of critics that make it appear that there is some 'secret'. There is none. There is hard work in optimizing the working parameters of the cells. > > > >Jed continually underestimates the capital necessary to develop a technology > >like BLP. > > On the contrary, it is Mills who is underestimating the capital & effort > required. He thinks he can do it himself. Jed's caricature. Why do you think that Mills has not trotted out a tea warmer or a house heater like some in the manner some in peanut gallery have been calling for? Why do you think he has positioned BLP as a license laboratory to establish technology and a patent base and attract major corporations with deep pockets to carry applications forward? He is doing exactly that. I think it will take thousands of > people, and without thousands of people in hundreds of different companies > he will surely fail. If thousands of companies had not developed the > transistor, AT&T alone would have failed. No. Bell Labs went after the transistor deliberately because AT&T foresaw the rising demand for telecommunications and realized that mechanical switching, refined over decades, would not cope with the future needs. Bell Labs had unmatched resources to pull together the essential elements and could have proceeded to make all the transistor swithes they needed. They also relaized the broad potential and so licensed and educated everyone else, including some Japanese engineers who had the odd idea of making a transistor radio. AT&T could not alone have created the industries based on semiconductors alone, that is true. But they would not have "failed". They could have made transistor switches for the Bell systems. . > > > >Where were integrated circuits in 1971, 12 years > >after > > > Texas Instruments first developed them? > > > >As I recall, the first integrated circuits did not cause much of a stir, > >because the computer market at the time had accomodated to the idea of cards > >with a few gates or flip-flops on it. > > By 1971 integrated circuits were already one of the largest industries on > earth. That is some 30 years after transistors were first built and after the USAF poured enormous funds into developing the technology. > > > >The entrepreneural drive of applications came **after** the devices were > >available. You did not and do hot have people making ICs their basement. > > That is completely incorrect. That is exactly where people made the first > ICs -- in basements and "secret" labs where conservative upper management > could not find them, and prevent the research. (At Bell Labs, they were > found out, and the research was quashed.) Furthermore, tons of > entrepreneurial money and talent poured into the development within weeks > of the announcements of both transistors and ICs. See Riorden and Hoddeson, > or any history of transistors and integrated circuits. By well established corporations with the resources necessary to carry it forward. I still don't think Jed gets it. He is castigating Mills for following the path he is holding up as an illustration above. I may be mistaken about Bell's sponsorship of transistor research, but I'm relying on memory of the time, and not some later book. Having seen at first hand some of RCA's nre product development efforts, and then summaries of them in books, such authors often do not really 'get it'. I hear that the hard disk technology had to be developed covertly at IBM because management did not understand its importance although the programmers did. Transistor technology rested on decades of research into solid state physics, and the development of reliable junction germanium diodes for radar receive-transmit switches. Transistors would have gone nowhere without zone refining, developed independantly at Bell Labs. Once done, you can buy such furnaces off the shelf. Today you can set up a small wafer facility in your basement -- after decades of development of these specialized units. But you don't start with a handful of sand to do this. > > That was also the case with telegraphs, railroads, aircraft, computers and > every other major technology I am familiar with. In every case, > entrepreneurs began working frantically on the technology *years* before it > became practical. They were a half-million people working on a airplanes in > 1911, for goodness sake! Where does this number come from? Airplanes did not became a practical, > cost-effective means of transportation until the introduction of the DC-3 > in 1935, 24 years later. All previous airplanes lost money and most of them > killed a large fraction of the pilots and passengers. True, birds gave everyday examples of the possibility. > > What Mills is trying to do is comparable to the Wright brothers trying to > build a Douglas DC-3 starting in 1904, in secret, with $50,000 in capital. Not quite. he is doing what the Wright brothers did, studying the technology, building wind tunnels, testing wings, etc. He is ***not*** trying to build a DC-3. Jed, what gives you this idea? > The Wrights were incomparable geniuses, but the notion that one or two > geniuses can do something like that alone is utterly absurd. Mills is not working alone, he has a board, investors and professional staff. It took the > skills of hundreds of thousands of people working for a full generation to > reach that level of development. And so it will with BLP technology. Nobody denies this, including Mills. Conceptually, a DC-3 is quite similar to > the 1903 Wright Flyer. The design is instantly recognizable, and I doubt > anyone would dispute that the DC-3 would have been covered by the Wright > patent if that patent had still been in force. But in practical terms the > DC-3 incorporates tens of thousands of ideas, improvements, and devices > such as retractable landing gear that the Wrights never dreamed of. No one > could have imagined such things in 1903. I have no doubt whatever that if > the Mills device works and it is eventually incorporated into our economy, > it will require as much innovation as the DC-3 did. Actually, it will take > that plus the computer, plus the telephone system and the Internet and > transistors combined. Ultimately, *every single machine* will have to be > redesigned to take advantage of it. Yes, its effect will be pervasive, but perhaps not to the appliance level. It took tens of thaousands of man-years of work before transistors pervaded everywhere. Few dared dream of millions of gates on a chip, or what could be done. I don't know how small or how large a BLP reactor can be made. That is a discovery for the future. The sooner that task begins, the > greater the patent revenue will be. Nobody disputes that, including Mills. If that task is only done by a handful > of people, no matter what else happens, the patent revenue will be > thousands or perhaps millions times smaller than it should be. I mean that > literally; I am not exaggerating. Consider the automobile business before > Henry Ford, and after. Or the computer business before the PC when 40,000 > units were sold every year, or today, when 20,000 are sold *every hour*. > > > >Nope, the technology was not ready then. Why have the leaders not come to > >LENR demos? > > There have been no LENR demos! Demos may not even be possible. I do not > know a single researcher in the world who could do one on demand the way > Mills reportedly did at Thermacore in 1992. Furthermore, and in some > important ways the 1992 Mills devices were more impressive than any CF > device ever made: they turned on quickly and they were reliable. The fact > that they did not produce commercial levels of heat was totally irrelevant. > Even if it could be shown that these devices could never produce > temperatures above 80 deg C, with an input output ratio no larger than > 1:1.3, they still would have swept all the world and convinced everyone > everywhere within a matter of months if they had been handled correctly. > The only similar device in CF that was ever developed was the Patterson > cell, which was deliberately hidden the same way Mills hid his devices. There is nothing hidden, only a failure to preceive. > > Other researchers, such as Mizuno have very impressive cells, but they are > not as convincing. Someone watching a glow discharge experiment who > understands what he sees will be properly impressed. Mizuno is one of the > few people on earth who will show his work to any qualified person. The > others all play hide and seek. So, Jed, why are not people standing in line to buy Muzino cells? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 12:20:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46JJgXn020015; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:19:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46JJXTw019912; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:19:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:19:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009001c55270$787b2bc0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: SMOT Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:19:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008D_01C55278.D86D92E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C55278.D86D92E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Steck wrote:- <> Well, he refunded me and even offered to send me A$50 extra for the=20 inconvenience... If Greg is wrong about the SMOT then he is more likely = to=20 be deluded rather than an out and out conman. I think anyone should=20 be concentrating on what he originally called the RMOD which he claimed = turned=20 for days but eventually suffered bearing failure. He has even uploaded = a=20 couple of drawings of this RMOD to his site. ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C55278.D86D92E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John Steck wrote:-
<<Worse yet, he managed to fleece a few = of=20 us
too (not me so I must temper my indignation).>>

Well, = he=20 refunded me and even offered to send me A$50 extra for the =
inconvenience...=20 If Greg is wrong about the SMOT then he is more likely to
be deluded = rather=20 than an out and out conman. I think anyone should
 be = concentrating on=20 what he originally called the RMOD which he claimed turned
for = days =20 but eventually suffered bearing failure. He has even uploaded a =
couple of=20 drawings of this RMOD to his site.
------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C55278.D86D92E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 12:24:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46JOBXn022598; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:24:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46JNxhe022500; Fri, 6 May 2005 12:23:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:23:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427BC43E.5060509 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 15:23:42 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Schwartz's website References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > I visited the website, http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html . I noted > with interest his use of high voltage, shades of the plasma discharge > reactor. I didn't notice energy out verses energy it, What do the rest > of you think? About two screenfulls down from the top there's a graph of electrical energy in versus heat energy out. It's been shot down too far to read the numbers, at least in my browser, but output is shown as above input all the way across FWIW. Unfortunately the graph axes are labeled "watts" on the left and "joules" on the right, which are, of course, incomensurate, so I'm not sure how to interpret it. A larger copy with all of its pixels intact would presumably be much clearer. Given the inefficiencies of any such system the _total_ energy in is surely greater than the _total_ energy out but that's beside the point at this stage, and in any case it's endemic to small scale cold fusion: it would have to be scaled up far beyond a 1-liter beaker before system breakeven could be achieved. (Throw in the energy cost of making the paladium electrodes if you want to make the problem even more apparent.) Hot fusion has the same problem at this point in time, of course, as does conventional automotive ethanol distilled from corn. > > Mitchell thinks that he's on to something, but he wouldn't be the > first inventor to believe that, eh? He's a tad touchy at times, but give him his due: he's been working on this for longer than I can remember. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 13:06:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46K5bXn013267; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:05:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46K5Vjl013199; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:05:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:05:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050506210531.00698778 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 21:05:31 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Schwartz's website Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:23 pm 06-05-05 -0400, you wrote: > . > >Unfortunately the graph axes are labeled "watts" on the left and >"joules" on the right, which are, of course, incommensurate, so I'm not >sure how to interpret it. A larger copy with all of its pixels intact >would presumably be much clearer. I have put a larger and perfectly readable copy in the Files section of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/files/ You will have to join the group to get at the Files section but it's completely free. You can immediately un-join once you've read the graph if you don't want your name to be associated with the likes of "Horselover Fats" ;-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 13:14:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46KDvXn019353; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:13:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46KCtRH017930; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:12:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:12:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506152859.0325f920 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 16:12:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed about Mills In-Reply-To: <011801c5526f$98c015e0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40 pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> <011801c5526f$98c015e0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Let's see: Mills has published his book and updated it periodically. He has >sponsored experimental work at universities and reputable laboratories >before acquiring the present property. He has posted detailed reports on a >long series of experiemts on his website. He has published critical papers >in leading scientific journals, including the Journal of Applied Physics . . . All well and good, but this sort of thing will convince practically no one, whereas if the 1992 Thermacore tests had continued they would have convinced everyone by 1994. Suppose you put a dozen of those Thermacore cells into the hands of willing people -- people I personally know at institutions all over the world. Then you upload reports from those people to web sites such as LENR-CANR.org and Mills' own site. Within a year you would convince hundreds of thousands of people that these results are real. And you would place thousands more identical cells (charging the researchers whatever it costs for the materials). Within two years you would convince everyone in the world. This is what AT&T did with the transistor from 1948 to 1952. They sent out sample devices to hundreds of institutions such as Los Alamos. It worked. Nothing else would have worked. >What Jed apparently wants is the equivalent of Morrison's hot cup of tea. >Well, it hasn't happened in the CfFworld either, despite Jed's urging. It *cannot* happen. CF researchers are not capable of doing it. >Oh, please. Mills has kept nothing secret. There is no secret to anyone who >has been paying close attention and who understands the the physics >involved. He has kept everything that matters secret! He had the ability to convince everyone in 1992 and he has not taken a single step to do it. He told me in person on the telephone that he does not want to convince people, and that this strategy is deliberate. He also told Gene that. Mills publication strategy is a cat and mouse game intended to convince just a few people so that he can entice investors, form a "secret conspiracy," and develop the thing on his own. That's more or less what Mills told me, and it sure looks that way. This is exactly the same strategy practiced by Reding, and by the Wright brothers between 1903 and 1908. As one biographer said of the Wrights, it was a "tragic mistake." And a perfectly stupid waste of time. >Jed's caricature. Why do you think that Mills has not trotted out a tea >warmer or a house heater like some in the manner some in peanut gallery have >been calling for? I think he has not done it because he is a fool. He could have done it in 1992. They did do it, effectively, at MIT! I have the data they showed right here. If I could upload 10 examples of this kind of data from 10 different independent researchers, I would convince thousands of people within weeks. >Why do you think he has positioned BLP as a license >laboratory to establish technology and a patent base and attract major >corporations with deep pockets to carry applications forward? He is doing >exactly that. And that is the wrong thing to do under the circumstances, as history has shown again and again and again. > I think it will take thousands of > > people, and without thousands of people in hundreds of different companies > > he will surely fail. If thousands of companies had not developed the > > transistor, AT&T alone would have failed. > >No. Bell Labs went after the transistor deliberately because AT&T foresaw >the rising demand for telecommunications and realized that mechanical >switching, refined over decades, would not cope with the future needs. AT&T nearly failed at commercializing the transistor in 1948 thanks to Shockley's ego and his opposition to Teal. A couple more mistakes like that and the whole development effort would have gone down the tubes. That is why it is absolute essential that many different institutions pursue development. Centralized development under one decision maker or "Tzar" never works. Mills is trying to set himself up to be that Tzar, which means the effort must fail sooner or later. By the 1960s AT&T's development strategy had gone completely off the rails and would never have resulted in the integrated circuit. If AT&T alone had tried to develop the transistor, 14 years later it would have been a marginal, slow unreliable replacement for relays only. >AT&T could not alone have created the industries based on semiconductors >alone, that is true. But they would not have "failed". They could have made >transistor switches for the Bell systems. They did, in fact, fail by 1960, thanks to ego problems and bad judgement. See Riordan and Hoddeson. >Furthermore, tons of > > entrepreneurial money and talent poured into the development within weeks > > of the announcements of both transistors and ICs. See Riorden and >Hoddeson, > > or any history of transistors and integrated circuits. > >By well established corporations with the resources necessary to carry it >forward. I still don't think Jed gets it. He is castigating Mills for >following the path he is holding up as an illustration above. Mike does not seem to understand what I am castigating Mills for: 1. Keeping secrets. 2. Trying to control development. 3. Trying to make himself "development Tzar" the way Shockley did. These two points have nothing to do with well-established corporations. It makes no difference whether the corporations which to the researcher well-established or whether they were established a week after the discovery, the way Intel and most other ICs leaders were. As long as talent and money flows in and information flows freely the job will be accomplished. >There were a half-million people working on a airplanes >in > > 1911, for goodness sake! > >Where does this number come from? Scientific American, Special Issue, 1911. As I recall it was reprinted in their "Looking Back" section some years ago. >Not quite. he is doing what the Wright brothers did, studying the >technology, building wind tunnels, testing wings, etc. He is ***not*** >trying to build a DC-3. Jed, what gives you this idea? *Mills* himself gave me this idea! And Mike Carrell repeated it yesterday when the described the 1992 Thermacore cells as "not practical" and where he said "scaling up to industrial levels takes lots of money and other skills." If Mills' plan calls for "scaling up to industrial levels" now, before the technology is revealed, accepted, and before we get hundreds of thousands of people working on it, his plan does not have a snowball's chance in hell. History does not work that way. > > The Wrights were incomparable geniuses, but the notion that one or two > > geniuses can do something like that alone is utterly absurd. > >Mills is not working alone, he has a board, investors and professional >staff. He needs 100,000 people! You cannot do it with fewer than that. He needs hundreds of different laboratories working independently in frantic, unbridled competition. Once he has that he does not need a board or investors or professional staff. Such things are useless under the circumstances. He needs are the dynamic energy of free-market capitalism and unfettered competition working in his favor. Without that, the finest board of directors and the most talented clique of scientists in the world will not do him a bit of good. >It took the > > skills of hundreds of thousands of people working for a full generation to > > reach that level of development. > >And so it will with BLP technology. Nobody denies this, including Mills. He needs that *now* before anything begins. >There is nothing hidden, only a failure to preceive. Mills has deliberately sought to limit, channel and prevent perception. That is what he told me, and I believe him. I do not understand why Carrell disputes this; he should ask Mills directly, as I did. > > understands what he sees will be properly impressed. Mizuno is one of the > > few people on earth who will show his work to any qualified person. The > > others all play hide and seek. > >So, Jed, why are not people standing in line to buy Muzino cells? His cell is very difficult to demonstrate and the demonstration is not as convincing as the 1992 Thermacore demo was. His cell is also dangerous. As everyone here knows a few months ago it blew up while he was demonstrating it to an unnamed VIP. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 13:18:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46KI3Xn021931; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:18:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46KHw1R021877; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:17:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:17:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: (OT) labour of the Sun Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:17:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050506201748.VUKJ2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: thomas malloy > I've been reading a webpage on Catholic prophecies > http://aoreport.com/200504news_rccpapalprophecy.htm Where were you when we were discussing this and pissing off Mr. K? :-) Yes, JPII was born during a solar eclipse and was buried on the day of a solar eclipse. While the HRCC likely had no control over his birth, most conspiracists agree that the Church intentionally chose to bury him on eclipse day. How about "Gloria Olivae"? "Rats-in-here" chose Benedict XVI, a reference to St. Benedict whose suborder are called Olivetans. We members of the dailygrail.com web site agree that he did that on purpose to fulfill the prophecy. Do a little research on Opus Dei, an ultraconservative Catholic organization of which Papa Ratzi is a member. Scary! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 13:28:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46KSeXn026820; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:28:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46KSZcS026784; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:28:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:28:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41pe54$unv04q mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,162,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="1031766170:sNHT512195050" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Corso & Technology Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:28:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, > From: "Mike Carrell" > > Steve wrote about a conversation with Corso, who claimed > to have seen transistor and fiber optics technology > recovered from UFOs, and showing them at US research > labs, and the claim that these developments came from > alien technology. > > Makes nice press. One can jump to conclusions about > stupid humans by overlooking the continuous thread of > development of these technologies extending back into > the 1800s. All this is well documented and obvious to > one with the technical understanding necessary to read > the literature. > > But it's not surprising that a UFO would contain > microelectronics and fiber optics. They are markers of > a certain level of civilization, like the stone, > bronze, and iron ages. What is really interesting are > the energy and propulsion technologies involved. These > lie beyond the general knowledge of present physics. > > Mike Carrell > Indeed, Corso's claims DID make a lot of "nice press" at the time. It should be noted that if one googles "Philip J. Corso" they will get a considerable amount of literature on the man. Bon Appetite! Regardless of whether one believes Corso's fantastic UFO stories or not, during his active military service he was involved in the management of a lot of sensitive operations of a clandestine nature. While some have attempted to vilify his character (probably because he started talking about is involvement in the controversial UFO field), he appears to have been well respected by many in positions of power. Once ,Corso was called to the senate floor to discuss his knowledge on a number of sensitive U2 issues. I want to make it perfectly clear here that I really don't know if Corso was telling the truth or not concerning his alleged exposure to alien technology. Since he had been involved in clandestine operations during his military career it has been suggested (and rightly so, I might add) that he would have been a master at the art of generating disinformation. So, was Corso's dramatic Roswell tale just another disinformation tactic? What would have been his motive for doing so? I fear we may never know what really happened. All I can say is that based on the few brief conversations I shared with Corso he gave me the impression that he was telling the truth - as he perceived the truth to be - and that, of course, is a mouthful. I wholeheartedly agree with Jed on the issue that we earthlings are a whole lot smarter than many give us credit. I think we've been a clever species for thousands of years even though we often do incredibly stupid things. Generally speaking, I do NOT subscribe to Von-Daniken-like theories claiming we poor lowly earthlings got most of our technology from super advanced aliens. On the other hand, I personally think it is arrogant to assume that we learned EVERYTHING completely on our own. I would point out that if we're lucky we all learned valuable skills from our parents during our occasionally hesitant journey towards adulthood. It seems to me that Jed acquired valuable skills on how to go about assessing his reality, as taught to him from his highly intelligent mother. It is obvious that Jed had good reason to respect her intelligence. I wished I had met Jed's mother as well. The point being, we all go through stages when we learn valuable skills from our elders whom we i! nitially revered as "gods". Later on, however, we also go through stages where we must break those ties with our "gods" in order to seek our own rightful place in the universe as equals with the "gods". I suspect its possible that many planetary cultures may need to go through that adolescent-like stage of rebellion. I suspect we're smack dab in the middle of our own planetary adolescence. Meanwhile, as our planetary society negotiates its way through adolescence it is considered both rude and offensive to hear from our elders, so it is best to ignore evidence of their existence, and better yet, propagate the myth that they never existed in the first place. There's an old saying the behind every lie is a truth, and behind every truth lies a lie. It's a colorful saying. As for me, it's been my experience that "Truth" often seems to boil down to a matter of personal interpretation. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 13:54:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46KsFXn005259; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:54:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46KsBoB005234; Fri, 6 May 2005 13:54:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:54:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uKc3AeQBk90zR2nbrfRpwNzGCOFAgodah3efcl+lLmDR21GqN7m5n96LPQnatleViHFO4hvKIrsLT5LeMfXxZjA3jZbc+WEYf+JpKBGseopiBiNPQ6Sbdap9WAZr45u8XIKRmohrCYfZr5UfqR+vLm3IM9JGs2TTrquzJFp3FNw= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:54:04 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (OT) labour of the Sun In-Reply-To: <20050506201748.VUKJ2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050506201748.VUKJ2152.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j46Ks9Xn005194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i prefer pope benny, darth ratzinger, or pope siduous. On 5/6/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > > From: thomas malloy > > > I've been reading a webpage on Catholic prophecies > > http://aoreport.com/200504news_rccpapalprophecy.htm > > Where were you when we were discussing this and pissing off Mr. K? :-) > > Yes, JPII was born during a solar eclipse and was buried on the day of a solar eclipse. While the HRCC likely had no control over his birth, most conspiracists agree that the Church intentionally chose to bury him on eclipse day. > > How about "Gloria Olivae"? "Rats-in-here" chose Benedict XVI, a reference to St. Benedict whose suborder are called Olivetans. We members of the dailygrail.com web site agree that he did that on purpose to fulfill the prophecy. > > Do a little research on Opus Dei, an ultraconservative Catholic organization of which Papa Ratzi is a member. > > Scary! > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 14:17:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46LGDXn013763; Fri, 6 May 2005 14:17:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46LGBuZ013739; Fri, 6 May 2005 14:16:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:16:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium & IP Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 17:18:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <6Y8CmD.A.kWD.a69eCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitch, I'll certainly take a stab at attending the conference, really the thing that caught my interest was your late addition of someone to speak on the IP issues surrounding CF. I hope that was in some part due to my incessant posting on the subject here. Can you post a bit about the subject here? You've certainly been busy at the patent office, I see you've even managed to squeak a CF patent through as a design patent of all things, USD413659 Immersion apparatus to heat a solution That's tenacity! Not very practical, but I salute you all the same... It looks like you've been filing apps all the same, what happens to them once they are examined? Can you keep it in limbo until the office changes its mind about CF? Can you tell us more about the gentleman speaking on the subject at MIT? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 14:19:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j46LJHdl014817; Fri, 6 May 2005 14:19:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j46LJGmH014789; Fri, 6 May 2005 14:19:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:19:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506163329.03257060 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 17:11:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Corso & Technology In-Reply-To: <41pe54$unv04q mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41pe54$unv04q mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >I do NOT subscribe to Von-Daniken-like theories claiming we poor lowly >earthlings got most of our technology from super advanced aliens. On the >other hand, I personally think it is arrogant to assume that we learned >EVERYTHING completely on our own. It is not arrogant! It is a fact: a well-documented, undeniable fact. If we are talking about integrated circuits, then we know that every step along the way was discovered by people. They are well-known people who documented their work carefully. Most of them are still alive. Not one of them admits to being inspired by or given access to alien technology. The theory I am referring to is that microelectronics (integrated circuits) were derived from alien technology. I have seen this idea bandied about on these ridiculous television shows. Microelectronics and the laser are the most impressive development of the last half-century, and the only ones that are even a little bit mysterious and awesome. I trust no one thinks Microsoft or the Internet were inspired by aliens. Actually, there have not been any other impressive developments worth mentioning. Nothing since 1950, as Chris Tinsley used to say. Civilization has been stuck in a rut, biding its time, eating the theoretical seed corn developed in the 1930s. On the same subject, Mike Carrell wrote "But it's not surprising that a UFO would contain microelectronics and fiber optics. They are markers of a certain level of civilization, like the stone, bronze, and iron ages." Of course I have never seen the inside of a UFO, but my guess is that this statement is completely wrong. We are talking about vehicles capable of crossing interstellar space, right? As Clark says, anything that advanced would be indistinguishable from magic. These devices would have to be designed to be thousands of times more reliable than anything we can conceive of, and assuming Einstein was right about speed of light they would also have to last hundreds if not thousands of times longer. In other words, Carrell seems to be assuming that there are no stages beyond microelectronics and fiber optics. We could recognize their tools because they would be similar to ours in many ways -- they would still be microelectronics. (Actually, I expect that even people will soon graduate to micro-photonics, not electronics.) I assume there must be thousands more stages, and that technology capable of crossing interstellar space would have to be approximately 100,000 times more advanced than microelectronics are compared to stone-age tools. If we could open up the UFO machines and look at the components, we would understand less about them than the caveman would understand looking inside a computer. We would see only solid masses of unfamiliar and probably undifferentiated materials and configurations. (I assume everything would be solid-state with no moving parts, but who knows? The whole machine might be in a plasma state for all I can say, organized and held together by forces I cannot conceive of, with "triple redundancy forever circuits" holding every atom in place.) If we broke apart these solid state devices they would tell us nothing. We would be like a late-18th-century scientists trying to understand an integrated circuit chip from the broken fragments of the ceramic jacket. Imagine someone who understands a great deal about electricity, such as Benjamin Franklin, is given the smashed fragments of a semiconductor chip. His best microscope would not be powerful enough to resolve the components, even if he happened to point it at the right fragment. Even if he had an inkling that an IC chip carries electricity, he would have no means of seeing the components, and no way to begin to understand their function. That would be the effect of a 220-year gap in human technology, between people who speak the same language and who understand many of the same principles. Now multiply that gap by a factor of 100,000. I expect you would be left with something that would be a complete and total mystery to the best tools our science can muster. Also, the chances that we could translate an alien language from writing are zero to none. We can barely decipher dead human languages even when we can make a good guess about what they probably say, and when people still speak some of the languages descended from them, as they do in Central America, for example. It is difficult for me to imagine anyone operating or understanding a machine without reading the documentation. Of course the machine might well read minds, so it might operate if you wished it to. (Your wish would be its command -- literally.) A handful of human-made machines have begun to do this, and I expect that within a thousand years or so they all will. But that would mean *the alien machine* would understand *us*, not the other way around. Also I doubt that an off-the-shelf machine could read any mind in any creature. It would only decipher signals from the brain of the species that designed it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 17:28:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j470SJm6013921; Fri, 6 May 2005 17:28:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j470SG5S013906; Fri, 6 May 2005 17:28:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 17:28:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b3mb$109rdc0 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,163,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="1084077440:sNHT13099952" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Corso & Technology Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:28:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > It is not arrogant! It is a fact: a well-documented, > undeniable fact. If we are talking about integrated > circuits, then we know that every step along > the way was discovered by people. They are well-known > people who documented their work carefully. Most of them > are still alive. Not one of them admits > to being inspired by or given access to alien technology. > > The theory I am referring to is that microelectronics > (integrated circuits) were derived from alien technology. > I have seen this idea bandied about on these ridiculous > television shows. Microelectronics and the laser are the > most impressive development of the last half-century, > and the only ones that are even a little bit mysterious > and awesome. I trust no one thinks Microsoft or the > Internet were inspired by aliens. > > Actually, there have not been any other impressive > developments worth mentioning. Nothing since 1950, as > Chris Tinsley used to say. Civilization has been stuck > in a rut, biding its time, eating the theoretical seed > corn developed in the 1930s. If one wishes to focus blindly on the subject of "advanced technology" as the only criteria for proving the lack of existence of so-called extraterrestrial influences within our society then, yes, some could make convincing arguments claiming that those pesky aliens had never been here. Personally, I would suggest that one not focus exclusively on "advanced technology" as the litmus test. Ultimately, it may turn out that we have been influenced more profoundly within the realms of the arts, philosophies, and religions as compared to whether aliens may have been responsible for giving us the wonders of Velcro. One need only browse ancient Indian Vedic text to get a hint of how earlier civilizations on our planet may have been profoundly influenced by huge tapestry off-worldlers. Again, I go back to my previous speculation, that at a certain stage of a civilization's planetary evolution, particularly when it enters the difficult adolescent phase it may be considered both rude and offensive to hear from our elders, so it is best to ignore evidence of their existence, and better yet, propagate the myth that they never existed in the first place. I suspect most parents of a teenager are more than aware of this phase in their children's growth, and most do their best to butt out. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 17:50:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j470o5m6029603; Fri, 6 May 2005 17:50:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j470o3Ym029588; Fri, 6 May 2005 17:50:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 17:50:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <1e2724f8-b42a-4cf7-abcf-3db4a93c979c> Message-ID: <016a01c5529e$a647c940$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60@pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40@pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080@pop.mindspring.com> <011801c5526f$98c015e0$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050506152859.0325f920@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:49:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <7fWwGC.A.QOH.6CBfCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >Let's see: Mills has published his book and updated it periodically. He has > >sponsored experimental work at universities and reputable laboratories > >before acquiring the present property. He has posted detailed reports on a > >long series of experiemts on his website. He has published critical papers > >in leading scientific journals, including the Journal of Applied Physics . . . > > All well and good, but this sort of thing will convince practically no one, > whereas if the 1992 Thermacore tests had continued they would have > convinced everyone by 1994. It's really not intended to convince anyone, but to establish a track record useful in what could be a major patent battle. People are convinced by doing their own experiments with their own hands and seeing results. This is due diligance, and is in progress. Suppose you put a dozen of those Thermacore > cells into the hands of willing people -- people I personally know at > institutions all over the world. Then you upload reports from those people > to web sites such as LENR-CANR.org and Mills' own site. Within a year you > would convince hundreds of thousands of people that these results are real. > And you would place thousands more identical cells (charging the > researchers whatever it costs for the materials). Within two years you > would convince everyone in the world. The thermacore units were bulky and produced a good thermal signal, but were a long, long way from commercial usefulness. this was also at the timne of the F&P frenzy, and the two issues were confused by many. Mills kept his distance. > He has kept everything that matters secret! He had the ability to convince > everyone in 1992 and he has not taken a single step to do it. He told me in > person on the telephone that he does not want to convince people, and that > this strategy is deliberate. He also told Gene that. There are several ways to read those tea leaves. He has all along addressed an influential few; investors and corporate officers and technical staff, not the public. He doesn't need to until all the pieces are in place. He doesn't want to be distracted by public argument and appeals to the peanut gallery. You can read this as being a con game, but there are other ways to read it. Certainly one has to entice investors about dreams of future wealth, it is done all the time, but with all the publication and posting Mills has done, it is extreme to talk about "secrets". > > Mills publication strategy is a cat and mouse game intended to convince > just a few people so that he can entice investors, form a "secret > conspiracy," and develop the thing on his own. That's more or less what > Mills told me, and it sure looks that way. Jed, this is what you want to see. Lots of people rushed to try the F&P experiment and only a few succeeded, and became converts. Most failed. Mills is not pushing forward toward development until he is certain that he can technically support the necessary development effort. This is exactly the same > strategy practiced by Reding, and by the Wright brothers between 1903 and > 1908. As one biographer said of the Wrights, it was a "tragic mistake." And > a perfectly stupid waste of time. As I recall, Reding turned down the buyout offer from Motorola, being a MBA, thinking that they could reap a greater fortune on their own, not realizing that the technical work was shakey. Jed went to the mat in defense of Patterson's demo because he was there and ran his own tests. Miley duplicated Patterson's cell fromthe patent with some advice, and became a convert. Why did this technology not blossom? Because there were fatal flaws not perceived. > > > AT&T nearly failed at commercializing the transistor in 1948 thanks to > Shockley's ego and his opposition to Teal. I recall a remark attributed to Mills that he is not repeating Schockley's mistakes, keeping a low profile and spending investor's money carefully. Centralized development under one decision maker or "Tzar" > never works. Mills is trying to set himself up to be that Tzar, which means > the effort must fail sooner or later. Again, Jed is seeing what he wants to. As long as the theory is dismissed by the establishment, Mills has the vision to carry forward to establish the necessary technical base with patentes to protect his partners. There will be a phase where the game is played as Jed suggests, with many, many copycats. That's just fine. I have heard Mills remark that he wished more people tried his experiments; they are not at all difficult for a well equipped lab. These are not the actions of someone "keeping a secret". > I still don't think Jed gets it. He is castigating Mills for > >following the path he is holding up as an illustration above. > > Mike does not seem to understand what I am castigating Mills for: > > 1. Keeping secrets. He is not keeping secrets, his website and patent applications are nearly full disclosure. There is 'knowhow' acquired by anyone who actually works with the technology and is shared with those who purchase licenses. Standard industrial practice. > 2. Trying to control development. How has he done this? He publishes details of experiments on his website, and a book of the theory. He is not stopping anyone from setting up the experiments and observing for themselves. All he wants in the long run is royalties for commercial use. Standard practice. > 3. Trying to make himself "development Tzar" the way Shockley did. Huh? What gives you *that* idea in the face of publications, presentations, and apaers? No he's not doing what **you** want him to do, but that does not make him a Tsar. The lab work is done by others, whose names are on the papers, even critics are credited with useful suggestions. He is clearly the leader and director within his domain. Somehow, I still think Jed doesn't 'get it'. > > >Not quite. he is doing what the Wright brothers did, studying the > >technology, building wind tunnels, testing wings, etc. He is ***not*** > >trying to build a DC-3. Jed, what gives you this idea? > > *Mills* himself gave me this idea! That is not consistant with conversations and emails I have had with Mills. I'd like to see the exact words and context, for I think Jed is misreading something. And Mike Carrell repeated it yesterday > when the described the 1992 Thermacore cells as "not practical" and where > he said "scaling up to industrial levels takes lots of money and other > skills." If Mills' plan calls for "scaling up to industrial levels" now, > before the technology is revealed, accepted, and before we get hundreds of > thousands of people working on it, his plan does not have a snowball's > chance in hell. History does not work that way. The technology ** is** revealed, and will be accepted when commercial devices appear. What seems to be missing here is the nature of the gap between lab demonstrations of effects, amply documented, and a commercially working device. There is no mystery here, just a lot of sweat like the gap between a point-contact trasnistor and an IC. I understand enough to see the path that has to be traveled, and it is a tough one. You either do it yourself and pay the price, or license that help from one who has gone there. I could go on at some length about the problem of scale up, and have done so on occasion, but I'm not sure how many here would follow me. > > He needs 100,000 people! You cannot do it with fewer than that. To change civilization, yes. To develop the technology, no. >And so it will with BLP technology. Nobody denies this, including Mills. > > He needs that *now* before anything begins. Jed, why aren't thousands now doing CF experiments since high school students have some success? BLP is passing a threshold where what you want may start happening soon. > > > >There is nothing hidden, only a failure to preceive. > > Mills has deliberately sought to limit, channel and prevent perception. > That is what he told me, and I believe him. I do not understand why Carrell > disputes this; he should ask Mills directly, as I did. Jed, exactly what was said, in what context, and **when**? 1992 is not BLP of the past several years. What was appropriate at one time and one context is not what Mills has been doung. As I've said, your focus has properly been on CF, with vigor and to good effect. I've been watching Mills closely, and what you recall from a 1992 conversation is not consistant with what he has been doing since. One has to devote significant time and effort in reading reports, etc., as you have done for CF. > > > understands what he sees will be properly impressed. Mizuno is one of the > > > few people on earth who will show his work to any qualified person. The > > > others all play hide and seek. > > > >So, Jed, why are not people standing in line to buy Muzino cells? > > His cell is very difficult to demonstrate and the demonstration is not as > convincing as the 1992 Thermacore demo was. His cell is also dangerous. As > everyone here knows a few months ago it blew up while he was demonstrating > it to an unnamed VIP. Well, there you go. Should everyone start buidling Mizuno cells in their basements? One could say that the explosion was a matter of a cell doing what every CF cell should do -- not explode -- but release major energy. But these are now seen as accidents, not the norm. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 17:54:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j470rhm6031076; Fri, 6 May 2005 17:53:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j470rd3T031031; Fri, 6 May 2005 17:53:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 17:53:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006d01c5529f$2effa230$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001201c55243$023f0c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: Biomass ethanol & BEAMR Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 17:53:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow. This is looking like a productive spring for biomass research, it seems. Two more relevant stories to an emerging "twist" in the transportation fuel situation. Some pundit in the future will probably label this era, looking back in a few years from now at what was going on in the year 2005 - as a clear case of "divine" intervention ... Yaweh orders Allah to "bug off", as it were ;-) Got a call today from Fred Sparper who was very excited about the Florida announcement of the ethanol breakthrough (14 years in the making) and its potential to make an immediate commercial impact on ethanol production. Unless you have been as intimately involved in biomass as has Fred, you may not appreciate the full impact of this. As it turns out, there are several commercial ethanol plants in his area (New Mexico) already supplying the mandated ethanol additives for gasoline (varies by state) - and this technology will be perhaps double the producers yield *at the very least* - given that now they cannot use high-lignin biomass, they need mostly grain now. Huge difference in cost and availability. Huge! Don't be surprised if gasoline futures take a dive in a few months - once the full impact of recent announcements becomes obvious; and especially if more states get in on the ethanol bandwagon, now that the politics is getting heated. No, it will not affect the gas price much this year, but in that industry, production can be ramped up very fast - so next year it wouldn't surprise me to see ethanol make a big impact on fuel prices. Another story today: http://news.ft.com/cms/s/2e1de5da-bd9c-11d9-87aa-00000e2511c8.html in which the CFA goes ballistic. "US petrol prices could be reduced by 8 cents a gallon if oil companies used lower-priced ethanol as a fuel additive rather than higher-priced petroleum ingredients, a US consumer group said on Thursday." "A study released by the Consumer Federation of America, comes as oil companies, ethanol producers, Midwestern farmers and national politicians are embroiled in a dispute over increasing the use of ethanol as a renewable fuel." **The CFA accused oil companies of "keeping gasoline supplies tight and prices high" even though ethanol supplies were plentiful and prices of the corn by-product had fallen recently.** And hay, (P.I.) you don't even need expensive corn, CFA !! Not to mention another recent development - the BEAMR. What is a BEAMR (the eco-variety, not the ego-variety)? Well for one thing it is yet another *Huge Breakthrough* in biomass - but in a longer term horizon. Basically it is like giving bacteria (even genetically-altered bacteria) their own "charge account" i.e. which is an efficient power source to use: http://www.engr.psu.edu/ce/enve/MFC-pictures.html It would surprise no one if this technology were to be also applied to ethanol. Basically, what has happened is that a new electrically-assisted, microbial fuel cell (MFC) has been developed - the first process that enables bacteria to coax four times as much hydrogen directly out of biomass than can be generated typically by fermentation alone. Get this: the bacteria get a small voltage boost - about 0.25 volts, or a tenth of what is required in electrolysis, and they can use that electrical energy very efficiently. In the MFC, when the bacteria eat biomass, they transfer electrons to an anode in the process. The bacteria also release protons, hydrogen atoms stripped of their electrons. The electrons on the anode are returned via a wire to the adjoining cathode, the other electrode in the fuel cell, but "boosted" i.e. drawnoff by the quarter-volt potential. The result is electrochemically-assisted water-splitting process and morevoer the merger of single-cell life with an electrical "circuit" in order to produce hydrogen gas. It is like replacing an electrolyte in a cell with living organisms and cutting the power needed by 90% but getting the same amount of gas as before. This project is not yet to the prototype level. The ethanol project, which has been prefected over the last dozen+ years fro the patent is just now going commercial in a bigger way. But the BEAMR holds just as much promise - maybe more - as no one has yet tried to genetically modify an ehtanol fermenter with the slight voltage boost. Bugs to the rescue ! Jones Forgot to mention the RO process of water removal - NO need for distillation anymore. All these technologies are coming together NOW! ...and not a day too soon... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 18:02:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4712Em6007025; Fri, 6 May 2005 18:02:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4712CsD006996; Fri, 6 May 2005 18:02:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 18:02:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 21:02:42 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Corso & Technology In-reply-to: <41b3mb$109rdc0 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net at orionworks@charter.net wrote: > Again, I go back to my previous speculation, that at a certain stage of a > civilization's planetary evolution, particularly when it enters the difficult > adolescent phase it may be considered both rude and offensive to hear from our > elders, so it is best to ignore evidence of their existence, and better yet, > propagate the myth that they never existed in the first place. > > I suspect most parents of a teenager are more than aware of this phase in > their children's growth, and most do their best to butt out. Or maybe those aliens believe in "tough love" ? ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 18:14:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j471ECm6012836; Fri, 6 May 2005 18:14:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j471EAAi012816; Fri, 6 May 2005 18:14:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 18:14:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427C1683.5070904 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 21:14:43 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corso & Technology References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Or maybe those aliens believe in "tough love" ? ;-) > There is no other functional alternative to evolving intellengence. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 18:56:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j471ugm6029419; Fri, 6 May 2005 18:56:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j471uda6029398; Fri, 6 May 2005 18:56:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 18:56:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200556715628460 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 06, 2005 Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 18:56:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d801ecbe363614738930fc4f4397ee3babbd9aa8b00e01cd47350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.110.16 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 5/6/2005 1:33:46 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 06, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 6 May 05 Washington, DC 1. SCOPES II: EVOLUTION ISN'T ON TRIAL, CIVILIZATION IS ON TRIAL. State Board of Education Hearings on teaching evolution in Kansas schools began yesterday in Topeka. A string of PhD witnesses proved that a PhD is not an inoculation against foolishness. One of the first was Jonathan Wells, a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute. A graduate of Unification Theological Seminary, Wells was "chosen" by Sun Myung Moon to enter a PhD program. He was inspired to, "devote my life to destroying Darwinism." Wells went on to earn a PhD in Theology from Yale and a PhD in Biology from UC Berkeley. Another witness against evolution is Mustafa Akyol, the spokesman for a fundamentalist Muslim organization in Istanbul that intimidates teachers into giving the Genesis account of creation. Jack Krebs, vice president of Kansas Citizens for Science, one of the science organizations boycotting the hearings, complained that, "they are trying to make science stand for atheism." Of course that's what they're trying to do, but it's also true that many scientists are atheists. After all, we assume that events have natural causes. As we learn more about causes, God's domain keeps shrinking, or at least moving, like God's Little Acre in the Erskine Calwell novel. I leave the extrapolation to the reader. 2. NATIONAL PRAYER DAY: PRESIDENT BUSH INVOKES INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Yesterday was also the 54th annual National Day of Prayer. In an East Room ceremony, President Bush said, "Freedom is our birthright because the Creator wrote it into our common human nature." Sigh. He went on to say "we celebrate the freedom to pray as you wish, or not at all." Oh good. On Capitol Hill, Tom DeLay (R-TX), speaking from his soapbox in the Cannon House Office Building, called for spending, "less time on our soapboxes and more time on our knees." 3. TABLE TOP FUSION: TOTAL MEDIA CONFUSION OVER UCLA FUSION DEVICE. Last week, WN pointed out that media stories about a UCLA neutron generator were, uh, uninformed. High-energy deuterium ions strike a deuterium-loaded target. Now and then you get d-d fusion, as Rutherford did in 1934. The new wrinkle is a pyroelectric crystal to generate the accelerating voltage. The Economist on April 30 totally mangled the story, referring to it as cold fusion in an editorial (it's VERY hot fusion). The story speaks of "energy from crystals" (groan), and winds up with Dr. McCoy on Star Trek. 4. THE HEINZ AWARDS: TWO FORMER APS PRESIDENTS ARE RECIPIENTS. Presented by the Heinz Family Foundation since 1994, the $250,000 prizes recognize individual achievement across a spectrum of activity. Of the six recipients of this year's award, two served as president of the APS. Sidney Drell of Stanford was APS president in 1986. A theorist and arms control advisor, he received the award for contributions in the "Public Policy" category. Mildred Dresselhaus of MIT was APS president in 1984, formerly at MIT, scientist, researcher, educator and trailblazer for women in the sciences was the recipient in the category of "Technology, the Economy and Employment." It was a joy to have worked for them both. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 18:57:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j471vUm6030309; Fri, 6 May 2005 18:57:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j471vSkE030283; Fri, 6 May 2005 18:57:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 18:57:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biomass ethanol has arrived Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 11:57:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7t7o719priavojfcj53rm7quenalhvj990 4ax.com> References: <001201c55243$023f0c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001201c55243$023f0c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j471vLm6030223 Resent-Message-ID: <4XBUEC.A.EZH.ICCfCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 6 May 2005 06:53:39 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Yes... It seems they know how to do more than consume vast amounts >of cheap alcohol at Frat parties in Gainesville .... >http://news.ifas.ufl.edu/story.php?id=963 > >Genetic engineering of a common bacteria ... e coli... Much and all as I applaud the development, I do wish these people would stop using E. Coli as the base. This little bug frequently flourishes in the human gut, and it's not a good idea to bioengineer them, since we could literally die from the consequences, *when* it ends up there (NOT "if"). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 19:10:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j472AHm6005889; Fri, 6 May 2005 19:10:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j472AG2B005872; Fri, 6 May 2005 19:10:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 19:10:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Biomass ethanol has arrived Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 22:12:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <7t7o719priavojfcj53rm7quenalhvj990 4ax.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin writes: >Much and all as I applaud the development, I do wish these people >would stop using E. Coli as the base. This little bug frequently >flourishes in the human gut, and it's not a good idea to >bioengineer them, since we could literally die from the >consequences, *when* it ends up there (NOT "if"). It's certainly not for me, but I can think of a few folks who would enjoy the permanent drunk engendered by such an infection... Scary thought. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 19:30:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j472UQm6013666; Fri, 6 May 2005 19:30:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j472UOwE013646; Fri, 6 May 2005 19:30:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 19:30:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008801c552ac$b7316f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: Re: Biomass ethanol has arrived Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 19:30:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: K, > It's certainly not for me, but I can think of a few folks who > would enjoy the permanent drunk engendered by such an > infection... If the E Coli are genetically altered to make ethanol, it would seem that inebriation is the largest risk factor... not some strange Ebola-like thing. Genes are very limited, specialized and specific in what they can do. Plus, if you modify for one trait, then you probably end up limiting the ability of the new strain to do anything very different, compared to the natural variety which can be very deadly - but this technology is unlikely to increase that problem. However...as we speak, creative Frat men in Gainesville (UF is well-known as a big time "party school") are probably planning toga parties where the only thing in the punchbowl is saw-dust.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 19:59:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j472xfm6029789; Fri, 6 May 2005 19:59:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j472xcvW029770; Fri, 6 May 2005 19:59:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 19:59:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biomass ethanol has arrived Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 12:59:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7kbo71tf7qhd0vrdcir6n0jfjhtpuni4bm 4ax.com> References: <008801c552ac$b7316f50$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <008801c552ac$b7316f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j472xZm6029727 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 6 May 2005 19:30:20 -0700: Hi, [snip] >If the E Coli are genetically altered to make ethanol, it would >seem that inebriation is the largest risk factor... not some >strange Ebola-like thing. Genes are very limited, specialized and >specific in what they can do. Plus, if you modify for one trait, >then you probably end up limiting the ability of the new strain to >do anything very different, compared to the natural variety which >can be very deadly - but this technology is unlikely to increase >that problem. [snip] This particular development is perhaps one of the most benign examples. However E. Coli seems to be a favourite of bio-engineers. I have also seen it mentioned in other experiments. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 6 20:21:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j473LXm6005121; Fri, 6 May 2005 20:21:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j473LUPA005091; Fri, 6 May 2005 20:21:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:21:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Koldomasov and Joule Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 13:21:18 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <90do71lo8jijremmfoki5tp0baitehg6d3 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j473LOm6005042 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 05 May 2005 13:14:20 -0500: Hi, [snip] >more here > >http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldomasov.html > ..under conditions ideal for the formation of hydrinos. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 03:35:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47AZYm6016324; Sat, 7 May 2005 03:35:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47AZVxP016306; Sat, 7 May 2005 03:35:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 03:35:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=pccyA9/nBgQD6qNpYNzDwMYuXLvI7yIdch53DNEl0YsLmgUy5kiKQmE0yfNLI7jG; Message-ID: <410-2200556793510540 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biomass ethanol & BEAMR Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 04:35:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dec50ae673b71ec7a19515728d27a63c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.177 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Science Daily Article. Link posted by Terry Blanton: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/04/050422165917.htm "In their paper, the researchers explain that hydrogen production by bacterial fermentation is currently limited by the "fermentation barrier" -- the fact that bacteria, without a power boost, can only convert carbohydrates to a limited amount of hydrogen and a mixture of "dead end" fermentation end products such as acetic and butyric acids.However, giving the bacteria a small assist with a tiny amount of electricity -- about 0.25 volts or a small fraction of the voltage needed to run a typical 6 volt cell phone -- they can leap over the fermentation barrier and convert a "dead end" fermentation product, acetic acid, into carbon dioxide and hydrogen." Acetic acid ( vinegar, CH3-CO-OH) is the primary "fatty acid" produced in the rumen of cattle and other ruminants, along with some butyric etc. Fuel cell or bacterial oxidation of Ethanol forms Acetic acid and water (CH3 - CH2OH) + O2 ----> CH3-CO-OH + H2O. So.. The MFC can be modified to run on Biomass-derived Ethanol, too. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Science Daily Article. Link posted by Terry Blanton:
 
 
"In their paper, the researchers explain that hydrogen production by bacterial fermentation is currently limited by the "fermentation barrier" -- the fact that bacteria, without a power boost, can only convert carbohydrates to a limited amount of hydrogen and a mixture of "dead end" fermentation end products such as acetic and butyric acids.However, giving the bacteria a small assist with a tiny amount of electricity -- about 0.25 volts or a small fraction of the voltage needed to run a typical 6 volt cell phone -- they can leap over the fermentation barrier and convert a "dead end" fermentation product, acetic acid, into carbon dioxide and hydrogen."
 
Acetic acid  ( vinegar, CH3-CO-OH) is the primary "fatty acid" produced in the rumen of cattle and other ruminants, along with some butyric etc.
 
Fuel cell or bacterial oxidation of Ethanol  forms Acetic acid and water (CH3 - CH2OH) + O2 ----> CH3-CO-OH  + H2O.
 
So..  The MFC can be modified to run on Biomass-derived Ethanol, too. 
 
Frederick
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 04:56:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47Buam6012186; Sat, 7 May 2005 04:56:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47BuY19012171; Sat, 7 May 2005 04:56:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 04:56:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 04:56:33 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 5 May 2005, John Steck wrote: > doubt and replace it with hope. Worse yet, he managed to fleece a few of us > too (not me so I must temper my indignation). Nah, I don't think he's into financial cons. I'm (almost entirely) convinced that he thinks SMOT could eventually work... so he takes the expedient of telling us that SMOT has already succeeded. But if true, this is enormous news, and we should all stop what we're doing and look at his videos and photos, question his eyewitnesses on the phone, ask for new videos of particular details of the machine in operation, even perhaps call in the press, pay for him to get a better camera and software, hire a local vortex staff member as an eyewitness and alternate opinion besides Greg, install web-connected instrumentation to observe the amazing event, etc. None of this can happen because there isn't even a single photo of the successful device, much less a video, much less a second person of whom we can ask questions. That's just so incredibly weird, it's unbelievable. Many other aspects are just as weird and inexplicable. But everything is completely explained by one simple method: if we imagine that Greg lied when he claimed success, then it all makes perfect sense, and all of his future actions are totally predictable. A person who is not after money can still be a con artist. If they create a web of lies, yet act friendly while lying right to your face... then they're winning your confidence and using it to manipulate you. There's no monetary ripoff, yet that's the very definition of "confidence trickster" or "con game." If the SMOT can never work, then it's a very slimy ploy which wastes the time of hundreds of people and only because they all were lied to. > I say good riddance. Maybe Newman will let him post to his list... add a > couple of batteries to SMOT and he'll fit right in over there... 8^) The worst part is that it's difficult to prove the lies. What, should someone show up on his ex-wife's doorstep and ask for her side? (Maybe he doesn't even have an ex-wife, maybe Greg Watson has always been a very bored sixteen year old girl in Hong Kong with a nasty sense of humor and some skill at fabricating online personas.) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 05:25:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47CP9m6021587; Sat, 7 May 2005 05:25:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47CP7Bv021568; Sat, 7 May 2005 05:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 05:25:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 05:25:05 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Vortex-L Subject: Re: SMOT In-Reply-To: <009001c55270$787b2bc0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Message-ID: References: <009001c55270$787b2bc0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <7174b.A.8QF.iOLfCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 6 May 2005, Nick Palmer wrote: > inconvenience... If Greg is wrong about the SMOT then he is more likely to > be deluded rather than an out and out conman. Does being deluded include building SMOT and RMOD closed-loop devices and then hallucinating that they're running? That's not fooling oneself. That's psychosis. Maybe he's that crazy, but I put my money on either SMOT being real (5% chance) or Greg simply lying in order to get others to do the work for him (95% chance.) If the SMOT things really worked, then Greg would have piles of evidence, perhaps in the form of eyewitness accounts of numerous people we could call, perhaps in the form of photos and video in the posession of people who would sell. Here's an idea: since fake evidence takes work, and to fool people the fake evidence has to be good, total lack of evidence screams "fraud." An operating closed-loop SMOT would be difficult to PROVE even if one had piles of evidence. But if no closed-loop SMOT ever ran, then suspicion of fraud would be very difficult to prevent, since any "evidence" would take some work to manufacture. If some evidence existed, it wouldn't be "proof," and most people might still be leery of fraud. But if numerous tiny bits of poor evidence existed (blurry photos and unreliable eyewitnesses) then suspicion of fraud would be quite low. > I think anyone should > be concentrating on what he originally called the RMOD which he claimed > turned for days but eventually suffered bearing failure. He has even > uploaded a couple of drawings of this RMOD to his site. I think we should drop all SMOT stuff as a waste of time unlss there is a tiny trace of evidence that Greg's claims were real. Greg can give out a long list of friends who we can question as eyewitnesses to the original event. But if SMOT never ran, then even the eyewitnesses would be a major undertaking in a hoax campaign. Of course, anyone who disagrees is free to pursue SMOT in depth on Greg's yahoo group. If they have success, I'll be happy to have lost the big chance to be part of it. I take responsibility for deciding that even weak fuzzy indications of dishonesty become very serious matters when they're long running and never varying. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 05:27:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47CRem6022531; Sat, 7 May 2005 05:27:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47CRbG8022504; Sat, 7 May 2005 05:27:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 05:27:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Craig" To: Subject: RE: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 07:27:21 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c55300$1e6ecb10$0200a8c0 Craig> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'll stop picking on Greg, but what I find amusing is that he doesn't assign any belief to the idea that the Finsrud device works. He suspects it's using a spring. If I had achieved SMOT success, then, by far and away, I would immediately suspect that Finsrud had stumbled upon the same principle that I had. "Behold! Someone else has discovered this strange magnetic anomaly!" Yet Greg can't believe it either. Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 08:00:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47Exkm6014157; Sat, 7 May 2005 07:59:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47ExhCH014107; Sat, 7 May 2005 07:59:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 07:59:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427CD7F6.2060308 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 11:00:06 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: 2.7 M ft^2 of Si Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: in the largest solar array ever built: http://www.guardian.co.uk/renewable/Story/0,2763,1477722,00.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 08:07:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47F7Xm6017058; Sat, 7 May 2005 08:07:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47F7VY2017035; Sat, 7 May 2005 08:07:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 08:07:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427CD9D6.3040201 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 11:08:06 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biomass ethanol & BEAMR References: <410-2200556793510540 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200556793510540 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Acetic acid ( vinegar, CH3-CO-OH) is the primary "fatty acid" > produced in the rumen of cattle and other ruminants, along with some > butyric etc. With the modified e coli maybe we can get them to belch hydrogen and "udder" ethanol! "eat mor chikin" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 08:35:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47FYwm6026667; Sat, 7 May 2005 08:34:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47FYvri026646; Sat, 7 May 2005 08:34:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 08:34:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=PAKadpGq1unE/XvllR+zFeYenPL1NGzmrwikpnREP+XtAktQBmXmgScRQy27e8e0; Message-ID: <410-22005567143436840 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Biomass ethanol & BEAMR Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 09:34:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c70d96dfe500e1968772c17eebe5884d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.94 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Another source of greenhouse gases. http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/~ALRF/fermdig.htm GAS PRODUCTION The gas mixture found in the rumen consists largely of carbon dioxide and methane. There is some nitrogen, and traces of oxygen may be present, particularly as the length of time after feeding increases. Little or no hydrogen is present, except when feeding resumes after a fast, when large amounts of it appear for a few days in place of methane. Methane is formed by reduction of carbon dioxide by methanogenic bacteria. Hydrogen, formate, and succinate are hydrogen donors for this reaction, and this may be why they are absent from the rumen, or present only in small concentrations, although they are all metabolic products of rumen bacteria. Between 30 and 40 percent of the total gas present in the rumen of cattle is methane, but carbon dioxide can vary from 20 to 65 percent in cattle fed once in 24 hours. Usually carbon dioxide forms about 60 percent of the gas present in animals that are fed ad libitum; it arises (1) from the fermentation of carbohydrates, (2) from the deamination of amino acids, (3) from saliva bicarbonate as a result of neutralization of fatty acids formed during fermentation, and (4) by exchange across the rumen epithelium during the absorption of fatty acids. "In spite of the complexity of the carbohydrates ingested, the results of their fermentation are simple mixtures of VFAs with carbon dioxide. The fermentation of purified cellulose, starch, or glucose in vitro by mixed rumen bacteria produces acetic and propionic acids in about equal proportions, but in the rumen acetic acid usually represents 60-70 percent, propionic acid 15-20 percent, and butyric acid 10-15 percent of the fatty acid mixture in animals fed hay or other roughages. Branched-chain isomers of C4 fatty acids, together with straight- and branched-chain C5 fatty acids, are usually present in small quantities; these fatty acids are associated with the deamination of amino acids and presumably are derived from their carbon skeletons. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Another source of greenhouse gases.
 
 
GAS PRODUCTION
 
The gas mixture found in the rumen consists largely of carbon dioxide and methane. There is some nitrogen, and traces of oxygen may be present, particularly as the length of time after feeding increases. Little or no hydrogen is present, except when feeding resumes after a fast, when large amounts of it appear for a few days in place of methane. Methane is formed by reduction of carbon dioxide by methanogenic bacteria. Hydrogen, formate, and succinate are hydrogen donors for this reaction, and this may be why they are absent from the rumen, or present only in small concentrations, although they are all metabolic products of rumen bacteria. Between 30 and 40 percent of the total gas present in the rumen of cattle is methane, but carbon dioxide can vary from 20 to 65 percent in cattle fed once in 24 hours. Usually carbon dioxide forms about 60 percent of the gas present in animals that are fed ad libitum; it arises (1) from the fermentation of carbohydrates, (2) from the deamination of amino acids, (3) from saliva bicarbonate as a result of neutralization of fatty acids formed during fermentation, and (4) by exchange across the rumen epithelium during the absorption of fatty acids.
 
"In spite of the complexity of the carbohydrates ingested, the results of their fermentation are simple mixtures of VFAs with carbon dioxide. The fermentation of purified cellulose, starch, or glucose in vitro by mixed rumen bacteria produces acetic and propionic acids in about equal proportions, but in the rumen acetic acid usually represents 60-70 percent, propionic acid 15-20 percent, and butyric acid 10-15 percent of the fatty acid mixture in animals fed hay or other roughages. Branched-chain isomers of C4 fatty acids, together with straight- and branched-chain C5 fatty acids, are usually present in small quantities; these fatty acids are associated with the deamination of amino acids and presumably are derived from their carbon skeletons.
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 08:35:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47FZOm6026890; Sat, 7 May 2005 08:35:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47FZNbG026868; Sat, 7 May 2005 08:35:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 08:35:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200556715358160 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Off Topic: Matt Druge Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 08:35:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d89b78a274608b65c9a480995bebf45051666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.100.107 Resent-Message-ID: <_nAw0C.A.wjG.6AOfCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII May 7, 2005 Vortex, I visit the Drudge Reports website frequently for misc. news and links to other news outlets and commentators. I see that his website has not been updated daily at all for a solid week. So does anybody know what has happened? To me, it looks like he fell ill but no news hat I am aware of. -ak0 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
May 7, 2005
 
Vortex,
I visit the Drudge Reports website frequently for misc. news and links to other news outlets and commentators. I see that his website has not been updated daily at all for a solid week. So does anybody know what has happened? To me, it looks like he fell ill but no news hat I am aware of.
-ak0 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 10:28:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47HSNm6031151; Sat, 7 May 2005 10:28:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47HSLfl031127; Sat, 7 May 2005 10:28:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 10:28:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c55326$6e3a8a00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-2200556715358160 ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Off Topic: Matt Druge Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 10:01:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C552EB.C19B4DA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C552EB.C19B4DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Akira, Sounds like you have a computer problem, and that you are getting your = cache of the site over and over (or are you misspelling the URL ??) There is no problem with the Drudge website,=20 http://www.drudgereport.com/ other than an occasionally disguised Fox/Bush/neo-Con bias, which I find = somewhat amusing from a supposedly unbiased yellow-journalist, who = desperately wants to be taken seriously. Jones ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Akira Kawasaki=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 8:35 AM Subject: Off Topic: Matt Druge May 7, 2005 Vortex, I visit the Drudge Reports website frequently for misc. news and links = to other news outlets and commentators. I see that his website has not = been updated daily at all for a solid week. So does anybody know what = has happened? To me, it looks like he fell ill but no news hat I am = aware of. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C552EB.C19B4DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Akira,
 
Sounds like you have a computer problem, and = that you are=20 getting your cache of the site over and over (or are you misspelling the = URL=20 ??)
 
There is no problem with the Drudge website, =
http://www.drudgereport.com/
other than an occasionally disguised = Fox/Bush/neo-Con=20 bias, which I find somewhat amusing from a supposedly unbiased=20 yellow-journalist, who desperately wants to be taken = seriously.
 
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Akira = Kawasaki=20
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 = 8:35=20 AM
Subject: Off Topic: Matt = Druge

May 7, 2005
 
Vortex,
I visit the Drudge Reports website frequently for misc. news and = links to=20 other news outlets and commentators. I see that his website has not = been=20 updated daily at all for a solid week. So does anybody know what has = happened?=20 To me, it looks like he fell ill but no news hat I am aware=20 of.
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C552EB.C19B4DA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 11:11:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47IBRm6024044; Sat, 7 May 2005 11:11:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47IBOPb024020; Sat, 7 May 2005 11:11:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 11:11:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JPgFsW3vsuXzqhKHqBQR3Zd8Ixjx6g7rZ1OGj9iQ8Zpozgx5Twsy5xZP0iEpwo4vIPz/csw+uKE98EOoZoDbIFsukkBGJUPX4pyvyhi1srRnmgSc69n6MeXjfl97xvEvdOp8hwiJHz/iQdUhI2zKU31FtvtOJX4cXeLmi781x2I= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 11:11:16 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Off Topic: Matt Druge In-Reply-To: <410-2200556715358160 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-2200556715358160 ix.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j47IBLm6023971 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: you didnt hear? he finally came out of the closet, and announcing he was taking a break for a while as he sorted out who he really was. and for amusing links, may i suggest fark.com. im part of the pay site, totalfark, and we routinely have stories before drudge, except his "leaked exclusives" which are usually about as accurate as the amazing bat boy. if you remember the faked soldier kidnapping story, we had someoen posting the pics of the doll in box about 5 minutes after the ap broke the story, before cnn even had it up, and we all laughed for the next two hours before drudge finally posted it (the link haveing been sent to him by me and 6 other people) and teh next 3 after that before the big boys realized they were being played. On 5/7/05, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > May 7, 2005 > > Vortex, > I visit the Drudge Reports website frequently for misc. news and links to > other news outlets and commentators. I see that his website has not been > updated daily at all for a solid week. So does anybody know what has > happened? To me, it looks like he fell ill but no news hat I am aware of. > -ak0 -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 15:55:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47MtZm6022679; Sat, 7 May 2005 15:55:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47MtRtw022567; Sat, 7 May 2005 15:55:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 15:55:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050506113124.0215fec0 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:53:05 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: CF demonstrations COPY 2? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506103649.03252390 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506103649.03252390 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:39 AM 5/6/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: >[I sent this before but it did not come back to me. This version has a few >corrections] > >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >>>There have been no LENR demos! Demos may not even be possible. >> >> Utter nonsense. JET Thermal Products gave an open demonstration of a >> robust cold >>fusion Phusor system at MIT for a week at ICCF10. > >Good point. I forgot about that one. I do not think it convinced many >people, because the calorimetry is so exotic, Not true at all. In fact, the calorimetry was not exotic - it was simple with two cells in electrical series [the cold fusion device and the ohmic control]. It is only seen as 'exotic' by those who do not use controls and eschew their (logical and requisite) use. For this lower power demonstration system at MIT, http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html which was in part encouraged by the late Dr. Eugene Mallove, the calorimetry was necessarily simple, and taken care of with full controls. Two identical volumes were compared, and they were wired in electrical series. One contained an ohmic control and the other contained the cold fusion Phusor device in heavy water. For approximately half the power to the cold fusion system, there resulted approximately twice the delta-T in the cold fusion Phusor device (and its surrounding water) compared to the ohmic control (and its surrounding water). BTW, the purpose of the low power demonstration system was to demonstrate in a single afternoon the "optimal operating point" of these systems. That was accomplished. More on this at: http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html The publication on the demonstration itself is: Swartz. M., "Can a Pd/D2O/Pt Device be Made Portable to Demonstrate the Optimal Operating Point?", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). The publications on the"optimal operating point" of these systems include: Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003) Swartz. M., "Photoinduced Excess Heat from Laser-Irradiated Electrically-Polarized Palladium Cathodes in D2O", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999) Swartz. M., G. Verner, A. Frank, H. Fox "Importance of Non-dimensional Numbers and Optimal Operating Points in Cold Fusion", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 215-217 (1999) Swartz, M, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7 (1998) Swartz. M., "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, 31, 63-74 (1997) Swartz. M., "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes", IECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009 (1997) with the background continuum electromechanics (applied to loading) here: Swartz, M., "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (1994) Swartz. M., "Generalized Isotopic Fuel Loading Equations" "Cold Fusion Source Book", International Symposium On Cold Fusion And Advanced Energy Systems". Ed. Hal Fox, Minsk, Belarus (1994) Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992) =============================================================================== >>But then these demonstations were of overunity cold fusion systems. By >>contrast, the (misnamed) LENR probably cannot give a similar >>demonstation. ;-)X > >What is the difference between "overunity cold fusion systems" and LENR? >As far as I know the two mean exactly the same thing. Cold fusion systems use lattices such as palladium, nickel and titanium to produce nuclear products and heat. The (lattice) heat results from the HIGH ENERGY of the first excited state, such as the He4* state, that results before the HIGH ENERGY is redistributed to the lattice by the plethora of phonons and polarons. Cold fusion is high energy, involving nuclear states which then collapse as the lattice takes the energy, which appears as "excess energy" and heat. More on this at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html More on cold fusion at the upcoming 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium at MIT. http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html 'LENR' is more amorphous, perhaps because it was in part an attempt to avoid the use of the words: 'cold fusion'. Anyway, it now also encompasses phenomena which have far less to zero credibility, of which a long list could be given from rotating water machines to putative biological transmutation. Mitchell Swartz ============================================================ Dr. Mitchell Swartz JET Thermal Products PO Box 81135 Wellesley Hills, MA 02481 mica world.std.com =============================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 15:56:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j47Mtam6022693; Sat, 7 May 2005 15:55:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j47MtU24022612; Sat, 7 May 2005 15:55:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 15:55:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050507185335.020c8a10 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:53:56 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: CF demonstrations In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506093808.03257060 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40 pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050505190616.01fd9d78 pop.theworld.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050506093808.03257060 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:39 AM 5/6/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>>There have been no LENR demos! Demos may not even be possible. >> >> Utter nonsense. JET Thermal Products gave an open demonstration of a >> robust cold >>fusion Phusor system at MIT for a week at ICCF10. > >Good point. I forgot about that one. I do not think it convinced many >people, because the calorimetry is so exotic, Not true at all. In fact, the calorimetry was not exotic - it was simple with two cells in electrical series [the cold fusion device and the ohmic control]. It is only seen as 'exotic' by those who do not use controls and eschew their (logical and requisite) use. For this lower power demonstration system at MIT, http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html which was in part encouraged by the late Dr. Eugene Mallove, the calorimetry was necessarily simple, and taken care of with full controls. Two identical volumes were compared, and they were wired in electrical series. One contained an ohmic control and the other contained the cold fusion Phusor device in heavy water. For approximately half the power to the cold fusion system, there resulted approximately twice the delta-T in the cold fusion Phusor device (and its surrounding water) compared to the ohmic control (and its surrounding water). BTW, the purpose of the low power demonstration system was to demonstrate in a single afternoon the "optimal operating point" of these systems. That was accomplished. More on this at: http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html The publication on the demonstration itself is: Swartz. M., "Can a Pd/D2O/Pt Device be Made Portable to Demonstrate the Optimal Operating Point?", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). The publications on the"optimal operating point" of these systems include: Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003) Swartz. M., "Photoinduced Excess Heat from Laser-Irradiated Electrically-Polarized Palladium Cathodes in D2O", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999) Swartz. M., G. Verner, A. Frank, H. Fox "Importance of Non-dimensional Numbers and Optimal Operating Points in Cold Fusion", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 215-217 (1999) Swartz, M, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7 (1998) Swartz. M., "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, 31, 63-74 (1997) Swartz. M., "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes", IECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009 (1997) with the background continuum electromechanics (applied to loading) here: Swartz, M., "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (1994) Swartz. M., "Generalized Isotopic Fuel Loading Equations" "Cold Fusion Source Book", International Symposium On Cold Fusion And Advanced Energy Systems". Ed. Hal Fox, Minsk, Belarus (1994) Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992) =============================================================================== >>But then these demonstations were of overunity cold fusion systems. By >>contrast, the (misnamed) LENR probably cannot give a similar >>demonstation. ;-)X > >What is the difference between "overunity cold fusion systems" and LENR? >As far as I know the two mean exactly the same thing. Cold fusion systems use lattices such as palladium, nickel and titanium to produce nuclear products and heat. The (lattice) heat results from the HIGH ENERGY of the first excited state, such as the He4* state, that results before the HIGH ENERGY is redistributed to the lattice by the plethora of phonons and polarons. Cold fusion is high energy, involving nuclear states which then collapse as the lattice takes the energy, which appears as "excess energy" and heat. More on this at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html More on cold fusion at the upcoming 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium at MIT. http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html 'LENR' is more amorphous, perhaps because it was in part an attempt to avoid the use of the words: 'cold fusion'. Anyway, it now also encompasses phenomena which have far less to zero credibility, of which a long list could be given from rotating water machines to putative biological transmutation. Mitchell Swartz ============================================================ Dr. Mitchell Swartz JET Thermal Products PO Box 81135 Wellesley Hills, MA 02481 mica world.std.com =============================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 17:09:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4809Tm6012696; Sat, 7 May 2005 17:09:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4809R97012681; Sat, 7 May 2005 17:09:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 17:09:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: CF demonstrations Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 20:12:00 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20050507185335.020c8a10 pop.theworld.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <_BtFfC.A.FGD.2iVfCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, A few thoughts about what I can find on the site. You don't mention current, but presumably it's in the .1 to 10 ma range? With the high voltages you use, I also assume that you're not using a salt of any kind, this to explain the rather localized electrolysis you note on the cathode and high solution resistivity. In my experience such circuits tend to concentrate losses in the electrolyte, have you made half potential measurements to determine the cathode drop? It strikes me that a lot of power in this system is just being spent heating the electrolyte and not driving the CF reaction. By the way, when I wrote earlier: >That's tenacity! Not very practical, but I salute you all the same... I just wanted to make clear that the "not very practical" referred to legal practicality of the design patent, not to the actual instrument being described. I look forward to seeing this circuit in operation. K. -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Swartz [mailto:mica world.std.com] Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:54 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF demonstrations At 10:39 AM 5/6/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>>There have been no LENR demos! Demos may not even be possible. >> >> Utter nonsense. JET Thermal Products gave an open demonstration of a >> robust cold >>fusion Phusor system at MIT for a week at ICCF10. > >Good point. I forgot about that one. I do not think it convinced many >people, because the calorimetry is so exotic, Not true at all. In fact, the calorimetry was not exotic - it was simple with two cells in electrical series [the cold fusion device and the ohmic control]. It is only seen as 'exotic' by those who do not use controls and eschew their (logical and requisite) use. For this lower power demonstration system at MIT, http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html which was in part encouraged by the late Dr. Eugene Mallove, the calorimetry was necessarily simple, and taken care of with full controls. Two identical volumes were compared, and they were wired in electrical series. One contained an ohmic control and the other contained the cold fusion Phusor device in heavy water. For approximately half the power to the cold fusion system, there resulted approximately twice the delta-T in the cold fusion Phusor device (and its surrounding water) compared to the ohmic control (and its surrounding water). BTW, the purpose of the low power demonstration system was to demonstrate in a single afternoon the "optimal operating point" of these systems. That was accomplished. More on this at: http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html The publication on the demonstration itself is: Swartz. M., "Can a Pd/D2O/Pt Device be Made Portable to Demonstrate the Optimal Operating Point?", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). The publications on the"optimal operating point" of these systems include: Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003) Swartz. M., "Photoinduced Excess Heat from Laser-Irradiated Electrically-Polarized Palladium Cathodes in D2O", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999) Swartz. M., G. Verner, A. Frank, H. Fox "Importance of Non-dimensional Numbers and Optimal Operating Points in Cold Fusion", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 215-217 (1999) Swartz, M, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7 (1998) Swartz. M., "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, 31, 63-74 (1997) Swartz. M., "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes", IECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009 (1997) with the background continuum electromechanics (applied to loading) here: Swartz, M., "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (1994) Swartz. M., "Generalized Isotopic Fuel Loading Equations" "Cold Fusion Source Book", International Symposium On Cold Fusion And Advanced Energy Systems". Ed. Hal Fox, Minsk, Belarus (1994) Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992) =============================================================================== >>But then these demonstations were of overunity cold fusion systems. By >>contrast, the (misnamed) LENR probably cannot give a similar >>demonstation. ;-)X > >What is the difference between "overunity cold fusion systems" and LENR? >As far as I know the two mean exactly the same thing. Cold fusion systems use lattices such as palladium, nickel and titanium to produce nuclear products and heat. The (lattice) heat results from the HIGH ENERGY of the first excited state, such as the He4* state, that results before the HIGH ENERGY is redistributed to the lattice by the plethora of phonons and polarons. Cold fusion is high energy, involving nuclear states which then collapse as the lattice takes the energy, which appears as "excess energy" and heat. More on this at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html More on cold fusion at the upcoming 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium at MIT. http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html 'LENR' is more amorphous, perhaps because it was in part an attempt to avoid the use of the words: 'cold fusion'. Anyway, it now also encompasses phenomena which have far less to zero credibility, of which a long list could be given from rotating water machines to putative biological transmutation. Mitchell Swartz ============================================================ Dr. Mitchell Swartz JET Thermal Products PO Box 81135 Wellesley Hills, MA 02481 mica world.std.com =============================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 7 19:23:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j482Nrm6021169; Sat, 7 May 2005 19:23:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j482Nofm021152; Sat, 7 May 2005 19:23:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 19:23:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427D7826.50802 pobox.com> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 22:23:34 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone References: <001301c55300$1e6ecb10$0200a8c0 Craig> In-Reply-To: <001301c55300$1e6ecb10$0200a8c0 Craig> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1msqgD.A.cKF.2gXfCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Craig wrote: >I'll stop picking on Greg, but what I find amusing is that he doesn't assign >any belief to the idea that the Finsrud device works. He suspects it's using >a spring. If I had achieved SMOT success, then, by far and away, I would >immediately suspect that Finsrud had stumbled upon the same principle that I >had. "Behold! Someone else has discovered this strange magnetic anomaly!" >Yet Greg can't believe it either. > > Bingo! I hadn't picked up on that, but you're right. This would seem to make it virtually certain that Greg is a conscious liar rather than a fool who believes he's found something real and is just stretching his story a bit to include work he hasn't quite finished. In any case I've known other people like Greg, who fabricated complex and apparently self-consistent stories involving purported hard evidence (such as videos) which somehow can never actually be shown for reasons which become more arcane as one pushes on them. The assertion that he's doing that is extremely easy to believe and doesn't seem especially improbable. The disappearing witnesses were a mistake in his story, of course, as they're harder to explain away than the missing video or the apparatus which worked but, strangely, no longer exists and can't be rebuilt. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 02:30:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j489UBm6025136; Sun, 8 May 2005 02:30:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j489U3C9025071; Sun, 8 May 2005 02:30:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 02:30:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050429214259.PAAC2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20050429214259.PAAC2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:13:59 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Watch Me Try to Get Home (Train Hell's a comin' to "Paradise") Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j489Tpm6024962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: They just approved an excise tax increase here for "transportation". They want to build a train - $2.6 billion or something like that. $100mil/mile. Terry - do you think technology is at the point where we could build a system of road sensors and car-mounted computers/displays to monitor and control traffic on major corridors? I'm thinking of a system that tracks and coordinates individual auto speed and spacing as well as routing - I don't mean automatic control of vehicles, but a display showing the driver parameters, like 'stay within the green bars' for speed and spacing, see the tolls for various routes, that sort of thing. Choose to drive the 'bad' direction on a corridor at a 'bad' time and you rack up tolls. Speed or impede traffic, drive in the orange or red zone on your display and you rack up tolls or even fines. Drive off-hours etc. for no tolls or restrictions, maybe even win movie tickets . Surely there's been studies and proposals for systems like this. Somebody hitting the commute hard every day in prime time should pay $hundreds per year for their yearly auto license fee, those who don't use the system much pay some minimum, maybe much lower than the average fee is now. Distributes usage fees fairly. They're going to ram that stupid train down our throats here and we're going to $choke on it, but people aren't going to abandon their cars to go ride it. This is a disaster. Why do we have to resort to 150 year old tech when we might be able to use the new stuff to turn our existing highways into a well orchestrated transportation system that has at least the same if not better effect on congestion than a train, lets people stay in their cars, costs far less to install, and pays for itself or maybe even *makes* money for itself and other programs? - R. >This interactive map: > >http://www.georgia-navigator.com/maps/atlanta > >shows near live traffic if you click on "cameras" at the top. It's a part of the $1/4 B traffic management system originally built for the '96 Olympics and expanded upon since. > >I work near the junction of 400 and 85 and live 17 miles NE. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 08:05:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48F4vm6008858; Sun, 8 May 2005 08:04:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48F4nIE008762; Sun, 8 May 2005 08:04:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 08:04:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <1f205ae4-32d4-4dfa-ac96-b77e920d7650> Message-ID: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Mills_secret_ Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C553BD.53A517E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <_ldi0D.A.sIC.PqifCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C553BD.53A517E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed declares that Mills is keeping secret his technology and I point to = the extensive list of papers on the BLP website which Jed apparently has = not read. There are some discoveries, repeated in every report, and = background contextual information taken for granted -- if you don't = understand that, you will not understand why product has been slow in = coming. The discoveries:=20 1) Hydrogen can exist in 'fractional quantum' states, which Mills calls = hydrinos. Mills was not first to conceive this. Hydrinos have been = identified by spectra, liquified and tested by NMR, and incorporated = into compounds.=20 2) Isolated hydrogen atoms can be induced to 'shink' to lower states by = the proximity of catalyst atom(s) presenting an 'energy hole' of the = right value. Energy is transfered by a 'resonant transfer' mechanism = which does not involve radiation. This transfer is known in physics and = chemistry in other contexts.=20 3) Identified catalysts include K+, K+++, Rb+, Sr+, He+, Ar+, Ne+, O+++, = and 2H. There may be others, but these are mentioned in experiments. = Controls used in experiments include Na+, Kr+ and Xe+. Na is chemically = similar to K, but is not a catalyst. Kr and Xe are noble gases like He, = Ar, and Ne, but are not catalysts. BLP experiments are routinely run = with one of the catalysts and then with one of the controls: The various = BLP phenomena occur with the catalysts but not with the controls.=20 4) The transition from the normal to hydrino state is accompanied by = release of energy, primarily as deep UV light and some kinetic energy to = the participating atoms. The catalyst atoms release their accumulated = energy and can again function as catalysts.=20 5) The reaction H>H(1/2) releases more energy than is required to = isolate a H atom from water. The reaction H>H(1/4) releases far more = energy. Hydrinos can catalyse each other, but one rises to a higher = state and the other goes lower. 6) Hydrinos can acquire electrons and form hydrides, and molecules.=20 --------------------------------- The catch is that these reactions occur between isolated atoms. In the = early electrolytic cells, at the cathode interface, K+ ions and H atoms = are both produced and can interact to produce heat. But lots of other = things are also going on. The K+ state is transitory, H atoms combine to = H2, and so do not participate.=20 Mills primarly works with dilute gases, at about 1 Torr. Here the mean = free path is large enough that atoms are isolated. A typical gas mix is = 95% catalyst and 5% H, to increase the probalility of H and catalyst = atoms coming close enough for the energy transfer to take place. Even = with the dilute gases, substantial, tangible heat output is seen.=20 As noted above, there are competing processes. The catalyst atoms have = to be ionized, in some cases by microwaves, and react before they = capture electrons and have to be ionized again [more energy]. The H = atoms can form H2, which will not react. Optimizing these parameters is = empirical; twice as big may not work twice as well.=20 A practical system must conserve the catalyst. One has to add hydrogen = fuel and collect hydrino byproducts while conserving the catalyst. This = is not easy in a gas system using, say, argon. it can be liquified and = distilled, but this takes energy somewhere, either at a remote facility = or in the BLP generator system. Otherwise the catalyst is an expensive = consumable.=20 Water vapor has been demonstrated to provide both fuel and catalyst with = microwave excitation. An allowed BLP reaction involves three hydrogen = atoms: two act as catalysts, accepting energy from the third. This is a = three-body reaction, less probable tha others.=20 A practical system has to get hydrogen fuel from somewhere. As I pointed = out in an earlier post, it can be from electrolysis powered by a local = BLP reactor, or from wind or solar farms. To do it locally, the BLP = reactor must supply enough energy to run a thermal electrical generator = [with its losses] and support ancillary equipment, and have useful power = left over. This is a formidible engineering challenge. Water is the ideal fuel, cheap, and the oxygen catalyst need not be = conserved. The reaction occurs at low pressure, so the system has to do = the work of maintining that vacuum against air pressure.The heat of = evaporation of the water would come fromz the environment.=20 I hope this helps understanding the road between a research effect and a = useful prototype. Lots of people can walk that road, and probably will = once its existence sinks in.=20 Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C553BD.53A517E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed declares that Mills is keeping = secret his=20 technology and I point to the extensive list of papers on the BLP = website which=20 Jed apparently has not read. There are some discoveries, repeated in = every=20 report, and background contextual information taken for granted -- if = you don't=20 understand that, you will not understand why product has been slow in = coming.=20 The discoveries:
 
1) Hydrogen can exist in 'fractional = quantum'=20 states, which Mills calls hydrinos. Mills was not first to conceive = this.=20 Hydrinos have been identified by spectra, liquified and tested by NMR, = and=20 incorporated into compounds.
 
2) Isolated hydrogen atoms can be = induced to=20 'shink' to lower states by the proximity of catalyst atom(s) presenting = an=20 'energy hole' of the right value. Energy is transfered by a 'resonant = transfer'=20 mechanism which does not involve radiation. This transfer is known in = physics=20 and chemistry in other contexts.
 
3) Identified catalysts include K+, = K+++, Rb+, Sr+,=20 He+, Ar+, Ne+, O+++, and 2H. There may be others, but these are = mentioned in=20 experiments. Controls used in experiments include Na+, Kr+ and Xe+. Na = is=20 chemically similar to K, but is not a catalyst. Kr and Xe are noble = gases like=20 He, Ar, and Ne, but are not catalysts. BLP experiments are routinely run = with=20 one of the catalysts and then with one of the controls: The various BLP=20 phenomena occur with the catalysts but not with the controls. =
 
4) The transition from the normal to = hydrino state=20 is accompanied by release of energy, primarily as deep UV light and some = kinetic=20 energy to the participating atoms. The catalyst atoms release their = accumulated=20 energy and can again function as catalysts.
 
5) The reaction H>H(1/2) releases = more energy=20 than is required to isolate a H atom from water. The reaction = H>H(1/4)=20 releases far more energy. Hydrinos can catalyse each other, but one = rises to a=20 higher state and the other goes lower.
 
6) Hydrinos can acquire electrons and = form=20 hydrides, and molecules.
---------------------------------
The catch is that these reactions occur = between=20 isolated atoms. In the early electrolytic cells, at the cathode = interface, K+=20 ions and H atoms are both produced and can interact to produce heat. But = lots of=20 other things are also going on. The K+ state is transitory, H atoms = combine to=20 H2, and so do not participate.
 
Mills primarly works with dilute gases, = at about 1=20 Torr. Here the mean free path is large enough that atoms are isolated. A = typical=20 gas mix is 95% catalyst and 5% H, to increase the probalility of H and = catalyst=20 atoms coming close enough for the energy transfer to take place. Even = with the=20 dilute gases, substantial, tangible heat output is seen.
 
As noted above, there are competing = processes. The=20 catalyst atoms have to be ionized, in some cases by microwaves, and = react before=20 they capture electrons and have to be ionized again [more energy]. The H = atoms=20 can form H2, which will not react. Optimizing these parameters is = empirical;=20 twice as big may not work twice as well.
 
A practical system must conserve the = catalyst. One=20 has to add hydrogen fuel and collect hydrino byproducts while conserving = the=20 catalyst. This is not easy in a gas system using, say, argon. it can be=20 liquified and distilled, but this takes energy somewhere, either at a = remote=20 facility or in the BLP generator system. Otherwise the catalyst is an = expensive=20 consumable.
 
Water vapor has been demonstrated to = provide both=20 fuel and catalyst with microwave excitation. An allowed BLP reaction = involves=20 three hydrogen atoms: two act as catalysts, accepting energy from the = third.=20 This is a three-body reaction, less probable tha others.
 
A practical system has to get hydrogen = fuel from=20 somewhere. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it can be from = electrolysis=20 powered by a local BLP reactor, or from wind or solar farms. To do it = locally,=20 the BLP reactor must supply enough energy to run a thermal electrical = generator=20 [with its losses] and support ancillary equipment, and have useful power = left=20 over. This is a formidible engineering challenge.
 
Water is the ideal fuel, cheap, and the = oxygen=20 catalyst need not be conserved. The reaction occurs at low pressure, so = the=20 system has to do the work of maintining that vacuum against air = pressure.The=20 heat of evaporation of the water would come fromz the environment.=20
 
I hope this helps understanding the = road between a=20 research effect and a useful prototype. Lots of people can walk that = road, and=20 probably will once its existence sinks in.
 
Mike Carrell
 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C553BD.53A517E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 08:12:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48FBmm6011975; Sun, 8 May 2005 08:11:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48FBiFY011937; Sun, 8 May 2005 08:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 08:11:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427E2C51.1020500 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 11:12:17 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Triangular UFOs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is the best evidence of something that I have believed for about a decade now. The triangular ones are ours: http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/043/S43465.html These exact craft are being seen more often lately. I posted a reference to a photo of one which looked very much like the one which caused such a stir in Belgium. Well, another one appeared recently: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page927.html It looks like each corner of the triangle is equipped with a "Sparber Drive". :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 08:39:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48Fd0m6026567; Sun, 8 May 2005 08:39:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48Fcvpe026536; Sun, 8 May 2005 08:38:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 08:38:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 16:00:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beatty wrote:- <> Incidentally, when Greg refunded me, the actual international money order had been filled out by Shirley Watson... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 09:16:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48GGam6012832; Sun, 8 May 2005 09:16:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48GGZJj012820; Sun, 8 May 2005 09:16:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:16:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41pe54$ur5tht mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,164,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="1035138621:sNHT352647366" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Triangular UFOs Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:16:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9CssGD.A.MID.jtjfCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > This is the best evidence of something that I have > believed for about a decade now. The triangular ones > are ours: > > http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/043/S43465.html > > These exact craft are being seen more often lately. > I posted a reference to a photo of one which looked very > much like the one which caused such a stir in Belgium. > Well, another one appeared recently: > > http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page927.html > > It looks like each corner of the triangle is equipped > with a "Sparber Drive". :-) > Hi Terry, This account reminds me of a painting I was commissioned to do back in the 90s - from an individual who saw a triangular shaped vehicle glide silently past his car one dusk evening in the 1980s. He said the craft didn't make a sound. It was moving way too slow to be flying aerodynamically. It was approximately 60 - 90 feet in length and was passing just above some transmission lines. The observer did make the interesting comment that after the craft had passed above his car it tilted and then suddenly shot away at a fantastic speed. He claimed that if he had been on board the craft during the acceleration phase he would have been squashed "flatter than a pancake" - his own words. Was it one of ours? I hope so. Here's a link to the painting I did for him. It is, of course, my personal interpretation of what he claimed to have seen: http://orionworks.com/artgal/svj/MayEncounters_m.htm Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 09:21:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48GL5m6014577; Sun, 8 May 2005 09:21:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48GL3S4014553; Sun, 8 May 2005 09:21:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:21:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b624$105ajns mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,164,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="1079332604:sNHT12616148" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Abduction Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:20:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vorts, Please forgive me. Yet another UFO abduction claim: http://orionworks.com/artgal/svj/Kinkade_m.htm Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 13:49:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48Kngm6020791; Sun, 8 May 2005 13:49:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48Kndrq020772; Sun, 8 May 2005 13:49:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 13:49:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427E7B88.2050401 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:50:16 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Triangular UFOs References: <41pe54$ur5tht mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <41pe54$ur5tht mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Was it one of ours? > >I hope so. > Yes, IMO. But, if true, then S. Greer is right and this is a crime against humanity. If we have AG and ZPE and it has been kept a military secret, those in the black gov't deserve to be black . . . charred black. The sightings are becoming quite frequent now. I have a friend in Britian who has seen one up so close, he could describe the skin texture. He got MIBed when he spoke of them in the local pub. There was either a NIDS or a JSE report which showed the correlation of the sightings of these craft with USAF bases. They have to be about 15 years old; so, maybe it's time for disclosure. Robert Bigelow shut down NIDS and started building modular space hotels. Clearly, he knows something. Maybe we will disclose them to the Iranians and N. Koreans first. Nice piccy, BTW. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 14:42:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48Lfqm6005593; Sun, 8 May 2005 14:41:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48Lfn7N005578; Sun, 8 May 2005 14:41:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:41:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills_secret_ Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 07:41:41 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j48Lfkm6005550 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46 -0400: Hi, [snip] >2) Isolated hydrogen atoms can be induced to 'shink' to lower states by the proximity of catalyst atom(s) presenting an 'energy hole' of the right value. Energy is transfered by a 'resonant transfer' mechanism which does not involve radiation. This transfer is known in physics and chemistry in other contexts. Since all matter is electromagnetic in nature, is must involve radiation in some form, though it may be near field rather than far field. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 03:55:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48AtBm6013478; Sun, 8 May 2005 03:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48At7Iq013443; Sun, 8 May 2005 03:55:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 03:55:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QJEsW0Y6CynaSmVCdUp2L9Shu/CPQWDmG0s2e7sjhz6hJSIWZqqGF19RWQ15TgHmd2R8gaW8+oD3dSmznI/UiDRCeEOCIrkiljrJhxqR8UNyw+ZUBZnVgCrUeJx7AxxMZYI5hByU7c6QL26gOJvJahQ6SQY64Cc30SD81+IjD4g= ; Message-ID: <20050508105454.18048.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 03:54:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Reiter Subject: strange arrays To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends12 Status: RO X-Status: Hello, all For the topologically jaded once again - a new little tidbit from Dr. Sam Faile. Since the beginning of the year, as I had been playing off and on with the wisp reactor plasma electrolysis rig, Sam felt compelled to go back into his search for knotted and unique structured coil arrays that would produce "anomalies" in a most general sense. (ranging from psycho-interactive effects to small weight shifts to thermal differentials) Many of the latest creations are 3rd and 4th order extensions of caduceus coils, wound up into "superballs" and "super-hyperballs". After you make a caduceus out of a caduceus, the goofin things sort of form spheres or pillow-like masses...as well as running out of formally derived names to call them. His collection of strange-geometry-to-make-Lovecraft-shudder has grown quite robust, and his new apartment has blossomed since the fire that destroyed much of his old work last year. Anyhoo, my son recently posted Sam's latest curiosity on the SPFaile website: http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/UniqueKnottedEffect.html As the gentle reader will note, Dr. Faile still prefers his archive of lab notebooks to either a typewriter or computer. Sam is a patient sort - he creates the arrays, and then lets them sort of saturate into the nearby environment. He then looks at their interaction with living and non-living structures, and goes into a photography phase to try capturing elusive optical anomalies. This most recent seems to create regions of blue-grey haze or optical distortion, as well as occasional occurances of visually noted phantom leaves on the bamboo plant in the middle. Back to lurkerland; bully for mum NR __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 14:45:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48LjEm6006870; Sun, 8 May 2005 14:45:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48LjDaO006861; Sun, 8 May 2005 14:45:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:45:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills_secret_ Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 07:45:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j48LjAm6006825 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46 -0400: Hi, [snip] >3) Identified catalysts include K+, K+++, Rb+, Sr+, He+, Ar+, Ne+, O+++, and It is K, not K+++ that is the catalyst. K+++ is the end product after the catalytic action (which then eventually returns to K by repeatedly capturing free electrons). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 15:03:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48M3Cm6013002; Sun, 8 May 2005 15:03:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48M3848012966; Sun, 8 May 2005 15:03:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 15:03:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 15:03:06 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone In-Reply-To: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Message-ID: References: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Nick Palmer wrote: > Incidentally, when Greg refunded me, the actual international money order > had been filled out by Shirley Watson... That's good to know. People have rich lives, and when the "richness" disappears, I take it as a sign that the person is "gaming" the system by carefully controlling the release of information, or just manufacturing false information. This is most common with major flamers, where they use false names and email addresses to avoid the usual ISP complaints, mailbombings, and death threats from their opponents. On the other hand, some people honestly have no online presence, no local friends also online, no messages in the odd forum archive, etc. The "missing richness" isn't proof of anything. But when it's just one of a large number of clues, the shape of the real signal starts to become apparent within the noise. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 15:52:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48Mpmm6004240; Sun, 8 May 2005 15:51:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48MpjiM004221; Sun, 8 May 2005 15:51:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 15:51:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:51:33 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j48Mpgm6004179 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 8 May 2005 16:00:24 +0100, you wrote: >William Beatty wrote:- > ><side? >> > >Incidentally, when Greg refunded me, the actual international money order >had been filled out by Shirley Watson... So what? The refund was an admission of failure and the lack of payment of interest only means that he got to use your money, for as long as he had it, for free. -- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 16:49:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j48Nmam6020767; Sun, 8 May 2005 16:48:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j48NmVT6020726; Sun, 8 May 2005 16:48:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 16:48:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills_secret_ Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 09:48:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <842t71dpo9t417mf8e40h0cdgpn1q548v0 4ax.com> References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j48NmSm6020671 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46 -0400: Hi, [snip] >3) Identified catalysts include K+, K+++, Rb+, Sr+, He+, Ar+, Ne+, O+++, and O+++ is also not a catalyst. O++ however is. [snip] >The catch is that these reactions occur between isolated atoms. In the early electrolytic cells, at the cathode interface, K+ ions and H atoms are both produced and can interact to produce heat. But lots of other things are also going on. The K+ state is transitory, H atoms combine to H2, and so do not participate. Under these conditions, K (metal) atoms are also produced (these are catalysts), though they are also transitory, rapidly reacting with water molecules to produce K+ ions. [snip] > >Mills primarly works with dilute gases, at about 1 Torr. Here the mean free path is large enough that atoms are isolated. A typical gas mix is 95% catalyst and 5% H, to increase the probalility of H and catalyst atoms coming close enough for the energy transfer to take place. Even with the dilute gases, substantial, tangible heat output is seen. The chance of this happening increases with a *decrease* in mean free path. More properly, it happens more frequently at higher pressures, because the collision rate is higher at higher pressures (for collisions of every type). BTW atoms (molecules) are always isolated in any gas or plasma, at any pressure. The only importance of changing the mean free path can be in the extent to which the walls of the chamber, or the exhaust system - if present, play a role. What primarily determines the chances of a catalytic couple coming together is the ratio of the gasses. > >As noted above, there are competing processes. The catalyst atoms have to be ionized, in some cases by microwaves, and react before they capture electrons and have to be ionized again [more energy]. The H atoms can form H2, which will not react. Optimizing these parameters is empirical; twice as big may not work twice as well. H atoms form H2 in a three body collision. These are rare, and thus can be ignored when engineering for energy output. More important is that the catalysts ions not get a chance to recombine with free electrons. This chance is reduced as the number of free electrons is reduced. Thus optimal catalysis would take place if separate streams of catalyst ions (without electrons) and hydrogen _atoms_ were combined into a single stream. Of course the resultant stream would be positively charged, and would later need to be neutralised with the missing electrons from the catalyst ions. Perhaps with clever engineering this could be put to use as part of a heat powered electrical generator. > >A practical system must conserve the catalyst. One has to add hydrogen fuel and collect hydrino byproducts while conserving the catalyst. This is not easy in a gas system using, say, argon. it can be liquified and distilled, but this takes energy somewhere, either at a remote facility or in the BLP generator system. Otherwise the catalyst is an expensive consumable. It is easy if one lets go of the inherent assumption that one needs a flowing system. On the contrary, one needs either a closed circulatory system, of a completely stationary system (i.e. a bottle), into which occasionally a small quantity of H2 is added. As the reaction proceeds, hydrinohydride compounds will form on the walls of the "bottle", removing them from the plasma, and necessitating the addition of more H2. Eventually, the hydrino hydride on the walls will be consumed, after the hydrinos shrink to the point that fusion reactions become possible. [snip] >A practical system has to get hydrogen fuel from somewhere. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it can be from electrolysis powered by a local BLP reactor, or from wind or solar farms. To do it locally, the BLP reactor must supply enough energy to run a thermal electrical generator [with its losses] and support ancillary equipment, and have useful power left over. This is a formidible engineering challenge. An alternative possibility is use of one of the various thermal methods of hydrogen production, using thermal energy from a BLP reaction directly. An interesting twist might be to incorporate all the necessary chemicals in a BLP reactor, where different temperatures reign in different parts of the reactor, and simply let nature take its course. OTOH, none of this is actually likely to be necessary, since a BLP reactor that is producing well Over Unity, should be able to accept water as a fuel directly. The energetic particles and UV in the reactor would soon split the water, and even oxidize the O to O++ turning it into a catalyst. > >Water is the ideal fuel, cheap, and the oxygen catalyst need not be conserved. Agreed. However this has the disadvantage that O17 may be produced, necessitating shielding the reactor because of the likely gammas. >The reaction occurs at low pressure, so the system has to do the work of maintining that vacuum against air pressure. I suspect that is simply a result of running it at too low a temperature. At temperatures of 10s of thousands of degrees, it would probably run well at pressures well above atmospheric pressure. However containment them becomes more problematic - lessons to be learned from hot fusion perhaps? >The heat of evaporation of the water would come fromz the environment. This is minuscule compared to the energy release from the reaction, hence can be ignored. The minimum energy release from a molecule of water (containing two hydrogen atoms) would be 2*40.8 = 81.6 eV. The energy required to evaporate a molecule of water ~= 0.47 eV, or only 1 part in 174 of the minimal energy release. A further 2.96 eV is required to split the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen, still trivial compared to the minimal energy release. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 17:31:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j490Uvm6003832; Sun, 8 May 2005 17:30:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j490TBFR001496; Sun, 8 May 2005 17:29:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 17:29:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41do9c$86735c mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,166,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="274959532:sNHT20224074" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Plug your hybrid into the grid Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:28:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, Someone I'm acquainted with named Richard Factor of Eventide recently got his letter written up in Physics Today. He makes an interesting suggestion on the potential advantages of using hybrid cars as a way to help distribute power more evenly through the grid when the vehicles aren't being used. IOW, when you're home or at the office just plug your hybrid into the grid. Advanced computer technology would be used work out the proper electrical interfacing needed to feed the power into the grid. Shouldn't be that difficult to do. See: http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-5/p13.html Interesting idea at first glance. What do the Vortexian resident geniuses think? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 8 17:39:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j490dkm6009354; Sun, 8 May 2005 17:39:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j490diFe009330; Sun, 8 May 2005 17:39:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 17:39:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427EB174.90302 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 20:40:20 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Plug your hybrid into the grid References: <41do9c$86735c mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <41do9c$86735c mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9KetQ.A.uRC.PFrfCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >What do the Vortexian resident geniuses think? > A multi-oxymoron. If it were true, we wouldn't be here. "This statement is false" -Eris' Discordia (fnord) All hail Bob. (or boB) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 05:42:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49CgPm6014308; Mon, 9 May 2005 05:42:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49CgKa1014276; Mon, 9 May 2005 05:42:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 05:42:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c55494$852366f0$40037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20050429214259.PAAC2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Watch Me Try to Get Home (Train Hell's a comin' to "Paradise") Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 07:42:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <2bHrAC.A.0eD.rq1fCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RICK, Thats peanuts, Houston spent a Bil on a 9 mile toy train. BushTexas and BushFlorida have it going. Texas has a 180 Bil tollway starting .. see www.corridorwatch.org to learn how the smart money does it. Cintra of Spain won the " bid" to construct the first section. Gov. Perry signed the " contract" but cant reveal the terms saying it is confidential. The " deal" was put together back when Bush was the GUV. Bro Bush in Florida playing copycat. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 4:13 AM Subject: Watch Me Try to Get Home (Train Hell's a comin' to "Paradise") > They just approved an excise tax increase here for "transportation". They > want to build a train - $2.6 billion or something like that. $100mil/mile. > > Terry - do you think technology is at the point where we could build a > system of road sensors and car-mounted computers/displays to monitor and > control traffic on major corridors? I'm thinking of a system that tracks > and coordinates individual auto speed and spacing as well as routing - I > don't mean automatic control of vehicles, but a display showing the driver > parameters, like 'stay within the green bars' for speed and spacing, see > the tolls for various routes, that sort of thing. Choose to drive the > 'bad' direction on a corridor at a 'bad' time and you rack up tolls. Speed > or impede traffic, drive in the orange or red zone on your display and you > rack up tolls or even fines. Drive off-hours etc. for no tolls or > restrictions, maybe even win movie tickets . Surely there's been > studies and proposals for systems like this. Somebody hitting the commute > hard every day in prime time should pay $hundreds per year for their > yearly auto license fee, those who don't use the syste! > m much pay some minimum, maybe much lower than the average fee is now. > Distributes usage fees fairly. > > They're going to ram that stupid train down our throats here and we're > going to $choke on it, but people aren't going to abandon their cars to go > ride it. This is a disaster. Why do we have to resort to 150 year old tech > when we might be able to use the new stuff to turn our existing highways > into a well orchestrated transportation system that has at least the same > if not better effect on congestion than a train, lets people stay in their > cars, costs far less to install, and pays for itself or maybe even *makes* > money for itself and other programs? > > - R. > > >>This interactive map: >> >>http://www.georgia-navigator.com/maps/atlanta >> >>shows near live traffic if you click on "cameras" at the top. It's a part >>of the $1/4 B traffic management system originally built for the '96 >>Olympics and expanded upon since. >> >>I work near the junction of 400 and 85 and live 17 miles NE. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 06:29:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49DTDm6006696; Mon, 9 May 2005 06:29:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49DT9Wp006672; Mon, 9 May 2005 06:29:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 06:29:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Qcby7m/1HiIN29iO7VX5jh7QoavhtvcH6B/9QJk/02F3RXPRkKvechoOnOidsLda; Message-ID: <410-22005519122846780 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Triangular UFOs or VTOL/Flying Wing? Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 07:28:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d79132ddcf2c1db655c07f73c84018cf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.28 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Looks a lot like a modern version of the Harrier to me. 30 to 50 lbs per second airflow from each of the three jet engines over an internal airfoil can give lots of lift. Here's a NASA Airfoil Simulator you can use to "Back-Engineer" it. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html The 5,000 megatons of propellent need to get a 100 Ton spacecraft up to one-tenth the speed of light makes for it being a craft from out yonder quite unlikely, Sparber Engine or Not. Obvious you need three engines for the right attitude. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Looks a lot like a modern version of the Harrier to me.
 
30 to 50 lbs per second airflow from each of the three jet engines over an
internal airfoil can give lots of lift.
Here's a NASA Airfoil Simulator you can use to "Back-Engineer"  it. 
 
 
The 5,000 megatons of propellent need to get a 100 Ton
spacecraft up to one-tenth the speed of light makes for
it being a craft from out yonder quite unlikely, Sparber Engine or Not.
 
Obvious you need three engines for the right attitude.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 08:07:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49F6lm6011049; Mon, 9 May 2005 08:06:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49F6gEe010989; Mon, 9 May 2005 08:06:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:06:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Triangular UFOs or VTOL/Flying Wing? Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:05:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050509150559.ZRJN2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Looks a lot like a modern version of the Harrier to me. Naa. That would be the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter. No resemblance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Joint_Strike_Fighter Possibly you're thinking of the now defunct A-12 Avenger, replacement for the A-6 Intruder: http://www.habu2.net/a12/avenger2.htm The A-12 was twice the plane the A-6 was. ;-) > Obvious you need three engines for the right attitude. And altitude! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 08:31:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49FU6mI029239; Mon, 9 May 2005 08:30:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49EuW83003192; Mon, 9 May 2005 07:56:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 07:56:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:53:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: KIEV EXPERIMENTS ON LOW ENERGY NUCLEOSYNTHESIS To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: THE KIEV EXPERIMENTS ON LOW ENERGY NUCLEOSYNTHESIS THE ABSTRACTS OF INVITED PAPERS The physicists of the Kiev "Proton-21" laboratory of low energy nuclear physics (Dr. S. Adamenko and coworkers) claim evidence (through 5000 experiments, carried out since 1999) for an enormous number of "low energy nucleosynthesis" in a little ball of copper invested from all sides by 0.3 MeV electrons. The elemental and isotopic analysis of the reaction products done in Kiev was confirmed in laboratories of other countries (USA, Russia). Starting from a 99.99 % pure ball of copper (0.01 % impurities) a large quantity of elements like ?, ?, La, Ce, Pt, Pb was produced. The total number of new nuclei is comparable with the total number of initial copper nuclei. The process has further amazing features: (a) The radioactivity of the resulting material is not different from the background activity and (b) transuranic nuclei are produced, including superheavy ones. The aim of the workshop is to present for the first time the Kiev results and discuss their significance, meaning and possible applications (e.g. energy producing, eliminating of radioactive wastes). more here http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/217kiev.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 08:31:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49FU6mK029239; Mon, 9 May 2005 08:30:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49F9rgE014117; Mon, 9 May 2005 08:09:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:09:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=MJNs1qUqJ0+WOQo2VNy5R6gnMUWdrMkN/CXNSUi3WGMHhgS56XP+JO9biIoMZcI3; Message-ID: <410-2200551914922270 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Triangular UFOs or VTOL/Flying Wing? Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 09:09:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409d4a32493d9808d0eaf1f9f28ec14a21350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.75 Resent-Message-ID: <65QWQC.A.UcD._03fCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I wrote: > > The 5,000 megatons of propellent need to get a 100 Ton > spacecraft up to one-tenth the speed of light makes for > it being a craft from out yonder quite unlikely, Sparber Engine or Not. > Kinetic Energy, K.E. = 0.5 Mv^2 At 0.1 c = 3e^7 meters/sec and a spacecraft of 1.0e5 Kg ( 100 Tonnnes) 0.5 Mv^2 = 0.5 * 1.0e^5 * 9e^14 = 4.5e619 joules 1.megaton = 4.18e15 joules 4.5e^19/4.18e^15 = 10,765 Megatons of rocket fuel. I cut that in half for a hotter propellent. An Antimatter energy calculator: http://www.edwardmuller.com/right17.htm >From whence they came? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I wrote:
>
> The 5,000 megatons of propellent need to get a 100 Ton
> spacecraft up to one-tenth the speed of light makes for
> it being a craft from out yonder quite unlikely, Sparber Engine or Not.
>
 
Kinetic Energy,  K.E. = 0.5 Mv^2
 
At 0.1 c   = 3e^7 meters/sec and a spacecraft of 1.0e5 Kg ( 100 Tonnnes)
 
0.5 Mv^2 = 0.5 * 1.0e^5 * 9e^14 = 4.5e619 joules
 
1.megaton = 4.18e15 joules  4.5e^19/4.18e^15  = 10,765 Megatons of rocket fuel.
I cut that in half for a hotter propellent.
An Antimatter energy calculator:
 
 
From whence they came?   :-)
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 11:03:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49I2Ym6016560; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:02:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49I2RMr016467; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:02:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:02:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Natural Petroleum has no Biological Origin Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:01:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050509180159.INIR2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A compelling argument which does not mention Thomas Gold: http://www.gasresources.net/DisposalBioClaims.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 11:07:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49I6nm6019010; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:06:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49I6kCw018984; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:06:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:06:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: British Nuke Accident Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:06:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050509180637.IUGS2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A case of bad timing considering Blair recently proposed new nukes: http://www.guardian.co.uk/nuclear/article/0,2763,1479527,00.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 11:12:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49IBVm6021858; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:11:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49IB8lq021610; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:11:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:11:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004e01c554c2$720bc610$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:10:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Fields wrote:- <> Errr, John - did you miss the bit where I said he offered me A$50 on top for the inconvenience? Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 11:23:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49INYm6030695; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:23:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49INTjk030613; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:23:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:23:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050509112959.028cbef0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 11:30:16 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: British Nuke Accident In-Reply-To: <20050509180637.IUGS2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.b ellsouth.net> References: <20050509180637.IUGS2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5zAS2C.A.ReH.fq6fCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you Terry.... s At 11:06 AM 5/9/2005, you wrote: >A case of bad timing considering Blair recently proposed new nukes: > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/nuclear/article/0,2763,1479527,00.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 11:56:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49IuDm6015673; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:56:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49Iu4vE015570; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:56:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:56:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=VSVPLdxCyvfY4XYXU2bqWxKJNA7jwFCUKvAPuNBQkzjHw5xIipuqdGmCpWCBQEHg; Message-ID: <410-22005519175534740 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Natural Petroleum has no Biological Origin Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:55:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940baf4486948e4c8545f2c0913983c847c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.85 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good show, Terry. http://www.gasresources.net/DisposalBioClaims.htm " However, recognition of such fact leaves unanswered the conundrums which eluded the scientific community for more than a century: How does natural petroleum evolve ? And from where does natural petroleum come ?" " The theoretical resolution of these questions had to await development of the most modern techniques of quantum statistical mechanics. The experimental demonstration of the required equipment has been only recently available. The following article substantially answers these questions." Highly (thermally stable) Calcium Carbide (CaC2) and other Refractory Carbides can produce hydrocarbons and carbohydrates simply by reaction with water at low temperatures and modest (ocean bottom) pressures. Throw in the Refractory Calcium-Magnesium Nitrides (releases ammonia NH3) when reacted with H2O). This leads to Amino Acids and Protein chains. Throw in Cyanogen (C2N2 plus HCN) http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/cyanogen.asp and you end up with the "Elixir" for the Nucleotides required for forming RNA and DNA, to boot. http://www.nyu.edu/pages/mathmol/library/dna/ And after a few billion years of marine evolution, here we, (they?) are. :-) Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Terry Blanton > To: > Date: 5/9/05 1:02:34 PM > Subject: Natural Petroleum has no Biological Origin > > A compelling argument which does not mention Thomas Gold: > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 11:58:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49IvXm6017078; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:57:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49IvVW5017051; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:57:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:57:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050509195730.006ac32c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:57:30 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Plug your hybrid into the grid Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:40 pm 08-05-05 -0400, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > orionworks charter.net wrote: > >> What do the Vortexian resident geniuses think? >> > > A multi-oxymoron. If it were true, we wouldn't be here. Full many a gem of purest ray serene The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear: Full many a flower is born to blush unseen, And waste its sweetness on the desert air. Some village-Hampden, that with dauntless breast The little tyrant of his fields withstood, Some mute inglorious Milton here may rest, Some Cromwell, guiltless of his country's blood From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 12:00:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49Ixbm6018664; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:59:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49IxW4O018612; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:59:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:59:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427FB304.8070001 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 14:59:16 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone References: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <004e01c554c2$720bc610$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004e01c554c2$720bc610$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > John Fields wrote:- > > < > The refund was an admission of failure and the lack of payment of > interest only means that he got to use your money, for as long as he > had it, for free.>> > > Errr, John - did you miss the bit where I said he offered me A$50 on > top for the inconvenience? It seems clear that SMOT is phony. It also seems pretty clear that Greg is a liar. Too much of the picture doesn't make sense if we assume he's honest but is completely understandable if he's a habitual liar. BUT don't assume he's (just) out to steal your money. Dishonest =/= thief. There can be many reasons for making up stories and bragging about things you claim to have done and some of those reasons may have nothing at all to do with money. Off hand it sounds to me like cheating people out of their hard-earned argent is just a side line for Greg; there's something else going on which compells him to make up stories about missing videotapes and nonexistent friends who watched a demo that never took place. Once upon a time I new someone with (different) a first name which also happened to start with "G", who told me an incredible and obviously false story about some adventures he was having which involved ammonium tri-iodide. The story unfolded over a number of weeks, and in the end the film he'd made of the climactic incident in the story vanished unexpectedly just before he could show it to me to prove it was all true. Sound familiar? Aside from the substitution of a nifty home-made energy source for a nifty home-made explosive, the only difference, really, is that the "G" who told me this was someone I knew in the Youth Choir at my church and there was absolutely no possibility of his making any money out of it, nor out of any of his other little lies which I occasionally noticed. The "G" I knew must be in his 40's today, and he's presumably been honing his storytelling skills for the last 30 years. If you met him on the Internet you might very well never catch on to the fact that many of his accomplishments are fictitious. So I'd say that as a character, Greg is extremely plausible, even if his story isn't. (Let this be a lesson to everyone involved in the free-energy field...) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 12:20:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49JJdm6032554; Mon, 9 May 2005 12:19:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49JJT70032459; Mon, 9 May 2005 12:19:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:19:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427FB7AB.806 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 15:19:07 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone References: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <004e01c554c2$720bc610$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <427FB304.8070001@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <427FB304.8070001 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Once upon a time I _new_ [sic] someone ... Once upon a time I could type an English sentence. Sigh... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 12:37:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49Jajm6015807; Mon, 9 May 2005 12:36:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49JaGXb015541; Mon, 9 May 2005 12:36:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:36:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050509152254.03260b00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 15:35:30 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone In-Reply-To: <427FB304.8070001 pobox.com> References: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> <004e01c554c2$720bc610$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> <427FB304.8070001 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >The story unfolded over a number of weeks, and in the end the film he'd >made of the climactic incident in the story vanished unexpectedly just >before he could show it to me to prove it was all true. Sound >familiar? Aside from the substitution of a nifty home-made energy source >for a nifty home-made explosive, the only difference, really, is that the >"G" who told me this was someone I knew in the Youth Choir at my church >and there was absolutely no possibility of his making any money out of it, >nor out of any of his other little lies which I occasionally noticed. Such people are harmless, unless they miss their calling. They should be employed in Hollywood or as science fiction writers. In the early 19th century people often told "tall tales" for amusement, and no one considered it lying. In his autobiography "Growing Up" Russell Baker described a wonderful uncle who amused the kids by telling tales about his adventures in the US Marines when he fought six-headed monsters in the jungles of South America. Even if they believed him at first there was really no harm in it. On the contrary, it helped them develop a vivid imagination and a fine sense of humor. Such people only cause harm when they end up in the wrong job, such as when they become researchers or the head of the CIA. By the same token, an honest but dull, plodding, unimaginative person makes a fine programmer or a conscientious industrial researcher, but you would not want to put him in charge of writing the screenplay for a movie. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 12:43:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49JhPm6021858; Mon, 9 May 2005 12:43:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49Jc7kD017006; Mon, 9 May 2005 12:38:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:38:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:37:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050509193731.NPSW2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > It seems clear that SMOT is phony. > > It also seems pretty clear that Greg is a liar. Previously posting prolificly, Prometheus, presumed to be Mr. Watson, hasn't posted on his own list since Cinco de Mayo. Maybe he has had an epiphany! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 13:08:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49K7wm6003413; Mon, 9 May 2005 13:07:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49K7eLP003287; Mon, 9 May 2005 13:07:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 13:07:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050509153842.03259630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 15:55:52 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: CF demonstrations COPY 2? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20050506113124.0215fec0 pop.theworld.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050506103649.03252390 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050506113124.0215fec0 pop.theworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <33LEqC.A.Qz.LM8fCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Cold fusion systems use lattices such as palladium, nickel and > titanium to produce nuclear products >and heat. The (lattice) heat results from the HIGH ENERGY of the first >excited state, such as the He4* state . . . So you are saying it should not be considered "Low Energy" (as in Low Energy Nuclear Reactions), but rather High Energy on a microscopic scale. > 'LENR' is more amorphous, perhaps because it was in part an attempt to > avoid >the use of the words: 'cold fusion'. It probably was an attempt to avoid that term. It was a euphemism, in other words. Euphemisms never work for long. The taboo that gives rise to the euphemism quickly attaches to the new word. > Anyway, it now also encompasses phenomena >which have far less to zero credibility, of which a long list could be given >from rotating water machines to putative biological transmutation. That seems a little unfair. What a word "encompasses" depends upon the speaker and his intentions. Most mainstream researchers, such as Peter Hagelstein, have in mind only metal lattice cold fusion when they say "LENR." On the other hand many skeptics accuse "cold fusion" including kinds of other reported over-unity devices such as magnetic motors. As for the biological transmutations, I have no idea whether they are correct or not, but I do not see how they could be related to metal lattice CF, because there is no metal in living cells. The rotating machines at Hydrodynamics produce cavitation, so if anything they are related to the sonofusion effects described by Stringham or Putterman. Whether that, in turn, has any connection with CF I cannot judge, but I am pretty sure that the Hydrodynamics machine does sometimes produce excess energy. I am not aware that Swartz has demonstrated an error in the calorimetry used at Hydrodynamics. If he has not, this is mere empty opinion, no better than the average uninformed skeptical assertion about CF. People who do not believe a claim do not get a free pass. They have to prove their point as rigorously as those who believe a claim do. It does not make a difference how controversial or unlikely the claim may be, although it is usually easier to rigorously disprove a far-fetched claim, such as a magnetic motor. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 13:15:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49KFLm6008785; Mon, 9 May 2005 13:15:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49KF9xa008689; Mon, 9 May 2005 13:15:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 13:15:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050509155713.0326d230 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 16:14:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed about Mills In-Reply-To: <016a01c5529e$a647c940$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd 4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370 pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60 pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40 pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080 pop.mindspring.com> <011801c5526f$98c015e0$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050506152859.0325f920 pop.mindspring.com> <016a01c5529e$a647c940$3856ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > whereas if the 1992 Thermacore tests had continued they would have > > convinced everyone by 1994. > >It's really not intended to convince anyone, but to establish a track record >useful in what could be a major patent battle. Even if that was not the intention I think it could have been used to convince people. I have seen many presentations about CF and that was one of the most convincing and dramatic. >The thermacore units were bulky and produced a good thermal signal, but >were a long, long way from commercial usefulness. With all due respect, Mike, either you are ignoring me or you misunderstand. I have already granted that point! Yes, it was a long way from commercial usefulness. Yes, that particular approach may never have become commercially useful. (I wouldn't know.) That has *nothing* to do with what I am saying. I say those cells might have been used to convince people even though they were not commercially useful. The model 1908 Wright Flyer was about as far from being commercially useful as anything could be, because it killed most of its pilots, yet it instantly convinced the public. In any case, commercial usefulness is an impossible goal for a first-generation product of this nature. No matter how skillful Mills and his industrial collaborators are, and no matter how much R&D they put into their first products, those products will be obsolete six months after their introduction. Radically new first-generation technology always changes at lightning speed. Look at the early models of automobiles, airplanes, transistors, personal computers and so on. They look impossibly awkward within six months. Most are obsolete by the time they struggle out of the lab to reach the marketplace. Researchers can never come close to imagining the optimum configuration for the real world. What is worse for the "first movers" who introduce a product, as soon as they begin selling, competitors race to develop better versions, and their job is made much easier because they can look closely at the first-generation product and its performance to see what kind of problems it has, and where the customers does not like it. In other words, they take advantage of the first mover's inevitable mistakes. At best, Mills and his collaborators can only get a running start on the technology -- a temporary advantage. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 13:55:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49KtYm6030208; Mon, 9 May 2005 13:55:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49KtTw0030164; Mon, 9 May 2005 13:55:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 13:55:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050509163709.0325a5b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 16:55:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug your hybrid into the grid In-Reply-To: <41do9c$86735c mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41do9c$86735c mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7Uhw4B.A.QXH.B58fCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >See: http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-5/p13.html > >Interesting idea at first glance. What do the Vortexian resident geniuses >think? Genius I am not, but I say, bad idea. B-a-a-a-d idea! This idea has been proposed before by many people, including me. It is bad because: 1. Even though hybrid automobiles are efficient and they produce little pollution, they are nowhere near as efficient or clean as a late-model centralized generator, particularly a natural gas-fired one. 2. Generating electricity from gasoline on a large scale is insane. Oil costs at least four times more than any other fuel, and it is the one fuel the US does not have in abundance. (In all this talk about the energy crisis, the newspapers seldom mention that there is only one fuel in short supply, oil, and the others are only a problem because of the pollution and global warming they cause.) There are a few diesel peak generating power plants, and a few generators that run on waste oil products. Other oil fired generators have mostly been phased out over the last 30 years. 3. These automobiles are not designed to run in an idling mode for long periods. In fact some of them shut down after idling for a few minutes. Efficiency would suffer, pollution would increase, and the engine life would be greatly reduced. Centralized generators and wind turbine generators, bearings and so on are engineered for far longer life spans with continuous operation than automobile engines, by a factor of 20 to 40. 4. The electrical connection to the docking station would be a safety hazard, and it would soon become major safety hazard in a public parking lot, because they would be smashed by bad drivers. Look what happens to grocery cart holders in a store parking lot. 5. Putting electricity into the grid from thousands of small, isolated, uncontrolled generators is a good way to electrocute power company linemen. Also, by the way, the article is incorrect. Today's hybrid automobiles do not have capacious battery power. They have barely enough to go 1 mile. But this has no bearing on their usefulness as generators. These cars would be useful in one role: as emergency generators during power failures. If you had one parked outside your house you could attach electric cables to it and use them indoor, the way I use my emergency gasoline generator during Atlanta's frequent power failures. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 14:07:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49L6cm6003764; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:06:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49L6bYk003725; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:06:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:06:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dmd0$r15ad4 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,170,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="907192740:sNHT13213004" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Plug your hybrid into the grid Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:06:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > > > From: orionworks charter.net wrote: > > >See: http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-5/p13.html > > > >Interesting idea at first glance. > >What do the Vortexian resident geniuses think? > > Genius I am not, but I say, bad idea. B-a-a-a-d idea! > ... Finally! Someone makes a relevant reply. You make some good points, Jed. I might send your comments to Mr. Factor of Eventide Inc., and see if he has a follow-up. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 14:44:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49LiJm6024867; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:44:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49LiDxR024809; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:44:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:44:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: IEEE Spectrum Article on Sonofusion Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:44:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050509214406.VKBC2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'll be happy to send the three .pdf files on this article. I've only had time to encode it; so, I haven't read it yet. The encoded file size is 8.6 Mbyte since I had to do 300 dpi due to the images and font size. Send me a private email if you want a copy. If this is too big, I can try to zip it tomorrow. I will also see if my secretary can run it through the OCR software to generate a text only file. This will be for private use only for listmembers and not for public display since the article is copyrighted. It might be late tonight before I can respond since I have to take the wifey out to dinner for her b'day. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 15:01:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49M0jm6032303; Mon, 9 May 2005 15:00:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49M0hwV032285; Mon, 9 May 2005 15:00:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:00:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c554e2$87c16df0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050509214406.VKBC2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: IEEE Spectrum Article on Sonofusion Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:00:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Please put me on your list Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 2:44 PM Subject: IEEE Spectrum Article on Sonofusion > I'll be happy to send the three .pdf files on this article. > I've only had time to encode it; so, I haven't read it yet. The > encoded file size is 8.6 Mbyte since I had to do 300 dpi due to > the images and font size. Send me a private email if you want a > copy. > > If this is too big, I can try to zip it tomorrow. I will also > see if my secretary can run it through the OCR software to > generate a text only file. > > This will be for private use only for listmembers and not for > public display since the article is copyrighted. > > It might be late tonight before I can respond since I have to > take the wifey out to dinner for her b'day. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 15:10:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49M9hm6004577; Mon, 9 May 2005 15:09:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49M9g9U004571; Mon, 9 May 2005 15:09:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:09:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050509180656.0326fb70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:09:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: I added more to Wikipedia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pathological_science It will be interesting to see whether these additions survive or whether the skeptics erase them. Slate magazine recently panned Wikipedia, or reasons I mainly agree with: http://slate.msn.com/id/2117942 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 16:24:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49NNxm6009539; Mon, 9 May 2005 16:24:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49NNufu009497; Mon, 9 May 2005 16:23:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:23:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 17:01:30 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <004e01c554c2$720bc610$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004e01c554c2$720bc610$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j49NNqm6009458 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 9 May 2005 19:10:51 +0100, you wrote: >John Fields wrote:- > >< >The refund was an admission of failure and the lack of payment of >interest only means that he got to use your money, for as long as he >had it, for free.>> > >Errr, John - did you miss the bit where I said he offered me A$50 on top for >the inconvenience? --- Hmmm... I guess I did. Sorry about that. -- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 16:47:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49Nl8m6021811; Mon, 9 May 2005 16:47:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49NjT2K020557; Mon, 9 May 2005 16:45:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:45:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <31091473.1115682148380.JavaMail.root rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:42:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: emeka okafor Reply-To: emeka okafor To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IEEE Spectrum Article on Sonofusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: put me on your list as well -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton Sent: May 9, 2005 5:44 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: IEEE Spectrum Article on Sonofusion I'll be happy to send the three .pdf files on this article. I've only had time to encode it; so, I haven't read it yet. The encoded file size is 8.6 Mbyte since I had to do 300 dpi due to the images and font size. Send me a private email if you want a copy. If this is too big, I can try to zip it tomorrow. I will also see if my secretary can run it through the OCR software to generate a text only file. This will be for private use only for listmembers and not for public display since the article is copyrighted. It might be late tonight before I can respond since I have to take the wifey out to dinner for her b'day. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 16:50:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j49No9m6023769; Mon, 9 May 2005 16:50:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j49No89h023757; Mon, 9 May 2005 16:50:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:50:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c554f1$cc37fd00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050509214406.VKBC2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: IEEE Spectrum Article on Sonofusion Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:49:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the effort, Terry... This article has some nice images but doesn't seem to bring anything new to the table, or maybe I was just hoping for a more in-depth investigation, following the BBC fiasco. In fact, there seems to be some unfortunate disinformation in the sparce treatment and "putdown" of the Impulse Devices commercial reactor (there is an image of it) which the authors claim "hasn't seen any signs of fusion yet"... ... whoa... this is about as close to a blatant prevarication as competing scientists are lilely to indulge in. Funny... in the BBC segment a few months ago, these same guys were the subject of some shady jounalism, and similar demeaning disinformation on the part of a crafty (sleazy?) competitor - the BBC being duped then by archrival Putterman, and now it seems that these three are trying to throw a few jabs at probably the most advanced (and only commercial) sonofusion unit which is available (or does R. George have one for sale?). These tactics seem to be going beyond petty bickering and infighting .... which probably means that there is a certain fragrant "green" aroma in the air these days. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 17:38:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A0bYTp016620; Mon, 9 May 2005 17:37:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A0bOA5016503; Mon, 9 May 2005 17:37:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:37:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4280025B.8050003 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:37:47 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IEEE Spectrum Article on Sonofusion References: <20050509214406.VKBC2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <001501c554f1$cc37fd00$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001501c554f1$cc37fd00$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Thanks for the effort, Terry... > > This article has some nice images but doesn't seem to bring anything > new to the table, Again, I haven't had time to read it. It is supposed to discuss a new company being started by RT? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 17:41:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A0eXTp019795; Mon, 9 May 2005 17:40:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A0eVFb019760; Mon, 9 May 2005 17:40:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:40:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <005c01c554f8$d3a07ca0$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050502005926.54713.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> <98lc7118hjl669i8esjka6n3j4lvjs6idd@4ax.com> <000b01c54f35$7dd13210$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <427918CB.3030405@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504145152.03248370@pop.mindspring.com> <001c01c550e5$f9497180$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050504163550.03250b60@pop.mindspring.com> <004901c55179$f6d3de60$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505123325.0324fa40@pop.mindspring.com> <00a201c551af$4c7463f0$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050505162045.0324d080@pop.mindspring.com> <011801c5526f$98c015e0$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050506152859.0325f920@pop.mindspring.com> <016a01c5529e$a647c940$3856ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050509155713.0326d230@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Jed about Mills Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:19:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Wrote: > Researchers can never come close to imagining the optimum configuration for > the real world. What is worse for the "first movers" who introduce a > product, as soon as they begin selling, competitors race to develop better > versions, and their job is made much easier because they can look closely > at the first-generation product and its performance to see what kind of > problems it has, and where the customers does not like it. In other words, > they take advantage of the first mover's inevitable mistakes. At best, > Mills and his collaborators can only get a running start on the technology > -- a temporary advantage. I think Mills fully realizes this. He is no fool. He has pubished enough to entrench himself for a patent fight to gather royatlies for his partners and original investors. I have tried to indicate the nature of the applications problem in response to Jed's perception of Mills' "secrets". There will be a rush of people building reactors and trying to duplicate the effects in various application niches, and they should. They, and their first customers, may well find that their devices are not as good as those produced by Mills' licensees and partners. As the many get better, they will find that Mills & Co. remains ahead, for they had a head start, have better funding, and have been working their tails off. This is much too big for any one company. TV was too big for RCA, so they licensed everyone, built early sets in RCA factories under different brand names until others could get up to speed. Even after most of the patents had expired, RCA still made pricey license arrangements with Japanese companies for access to the Labs for consultaiton and knowledge of advanced developments. BLP may well follow that path. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 19:27:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A2RHDb011738; Mon, 9 May 2005 19:27:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A2RCwi011683; Mon, 9 May 2005 19:27:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:27:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c55507$c3db7a40$e8037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Japan backs off?? Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:27:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C554DD.DA882BF0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C554DD.DA882BF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C554DD.DA882BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C554DD.DA882BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankDo I see the ultimate intimidation story emerging or is it simple = politics doing what it does best. I can't imagine Japan letting this go http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/30695/story.htm#top Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C554DD.DA882BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Do I see the ultimate intimidation story emerging or is it simple = politics=20 doing what it does best. I can't imagine Japan letting this go

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/30695/story.htm= #top

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C554DD.DA882BF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C554DD.DA882BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c55507$c35b26b0$e8037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C554DD.DA882BF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 20:15:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A3EwDb003235; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:14:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A3EtNg003217; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:14:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:14:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Concrete for Frank Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 22:18:12 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Boat hulls.... 8^) -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 11:04 AM To: Vortex Subject: Concrete for Frank For our resident "concrete head", http://www.physorg.com/news3985.html wow! not sure what you'd build with that stuff, but it sure can flex. K. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 05/05/06 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 20:20:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A3Jlun005617; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:19:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A3Jdve005551; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:19:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:19:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: SMOT Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 22:22:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02D9_01C554E5.A4ADE170" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <009001c55270$787b2bc0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02D9_01C554E5.A4ADE170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have all that info still on my hard drive... engineered and prototyped a few RMOD things myself. Can't say I got anywhere close to validating any of his claims though. The reason he concentrated on SMOT and abandoned RMOD is the energy source he was trying to plunder is gravity. The effects of gravity are negated (for the most part) in rotary configurations due to centripetal force. ...and to be fair, we are not talking about OU. That's like saying solar cells are OU. Solar cells harvest sunlight. SMOT harvests gravity. At best an RMOD is nothing more than a magnetically powered minto wheel. -john -----Original Message----- From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 2:19 PM To: Vortex-L Subject: SMOT John Steck wrote:- <> Well, he refunded me and even offered to send me A$50 extra for the inconvenience... If Greg is wrong about the SMOT then he is more likely to be deluded rather than an out and out conman. I think anyone should be concentrating on what he originally called the RMOD which he claimed turned for days but eventually suffered bearing failure. He has even uploaded a couple of drawings of this RMOD to his site. ------=_NextPart_000_02D9_01C554E5.A4ADE170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have all that info still on my hard drive... engineered and = prototyped a=20 few RMOD things myself. Can't say I got anywhere close to validating any = of his=20 claims though. The reason he concentrated on SMOT and abandoned RMOD is = the=20 energy source he was trying to plunder is gravity. The effects of = gravity are=20 negated (for the most part) in rotary configurations due to centripetal=20 force.

...and to be fair, we are not talking about OU. That's like saying = solar=20 cells are OU. Solar cells harvest sunlight. SMOT harvests gravity. At = best an=20 RMOD is nothing more than a magnetically powered minto wheel.

-john

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Palmer=20 [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 = 2:19=20 PM
To: Vortex-L
Subject: SMOT

John Steck wrote:-
<<Worse yet, he managed to fleece a few = of=20 us
too (not me so I must temper my indignation).>>

Well, = he=20 refunded me and even offered to send me A$50 extra for the =
inconvenience...=20 If Greg is wrong about the SMOT then he is more likely to
be deluded = rather=20 than an out and out conman. I think anyone should
 be = concentrating on=20 what he originally called the RMOD which he claimed turned
for = days =20 but eventually suffered bearing failure. He has even uploaded a =
couple of=20 drawings of this RMOD to his site.
------=_NextPart_000_02D9_01C554E5.A4ADE170-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 20:46:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A3jqDN020654; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:45:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A3jnDK020630; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:45:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:45:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42802E59.7060805 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 23:45:29 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > I have all that info still on my hard drive... engineered and > prototyped a few RMOD things myself. Can't say I got anywhere close to > validating any of his claims though. The reason he concentrated on > SMOT and abandoned RMOD is the energy source he was trying to plunder > is gravity. The effects of gravity are negated (for the most part) in > rotary configurations due to centripetal force. > > ...and to be fair, we are not talking about OU. That's like saying > solar cells are OU. Solar cells harvest sunlight. SMOT harvests gravity. > Gravity is a conservative force. There is nothing there to "harvest", save by letting something fall down and _stay_ _down_. Waterwheels, black holes, and brown dwarfs do that. But Greg is talking about something more. Greg is talking about letting something fall down and then raising it up again, and getting energy out of the whole circuit, from starting point back to the starting point. That certainly _IS_ "OU" -- it's free energy, perpetual motion, a violation of the First Law. It's radical. And it's the whole point in his magic arrangement of magnets which will pull on a steel ball on the way in but then let it go without resistance on the way out. Proof that gravity isn't conservative would be, to say the least, an important result. The Minto wheel is solar powered: solar energy goes in, mechanical energy comes out. Greg's "wheel" isn't powered: zero Gibbs free energy goes in, mechanical energy comes out. That's a big difference. > At best an RMOD is nothing more than a magnetically powered minto wheel. > You can't get energy out of static magnets, because the field is conservative. There is no "nothing more..." about Greg's alleged invention; it's radically different. > -john > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Nick Palmer [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk] > *Sent:* Friday, May 06, 2005 2:19 PM > *To:* Vortex-L > *Subject:* SMOT > > John Steck wrote:- > < too (not me so I must temper my indignation).>> > > Well, he refunded me and even offered to send me A$50 extra for the > inconvenience... If Greg is wrong about the SMOT then he is more > likely to > be deluded rather than an out and out conman. I think anyone should > be concentrating on what he originally called the RMOD which he > claimed turned > for days but eventually suffered bearing failure. He has even uploaded a > couple of drawings of this RMOD to his site. Right. Drawings. For sure. What happened to the original device -- stolen by little green men? Nobody should be concentrating on this at all, and that includes me, so as of this moment I resolve to stop posting on this particular topic... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 20:48:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A3mDDN021698; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:48:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A3mBwl021670; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:48:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:48:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Plug your hybrid into the grid Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 22:51:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <41do9c$86735c mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Locomotives do a much better job... higher fuel efficiency through diesel, higher output per sqft of space. Many cities have tapping them in their emergency power disaster plans.... I think CA used locomotives to mitigate brownouts on high demand days during their legislatively created power crunch. -john -----Original Message----- From: orionworks charter.net [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 7:29 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: orionworks charter.net Subject: Plug your hybrid into the grid Vorts, Someone I'm acquainted with named Richard Factor of Eventide recently got his letter written up in Physics Today. He makes an interesting suggestion on the potential advantages of using hybrid cars as a way to help distribute power more evenly through the grid when the vehicles aren't being used. IOW, when you're home or at the office just plug your hybrid into the grid. Advanced computer technology would be used work out the proper electrical interfacing needed to feed the power into the grid. Shouldn't be that difficult to do. See: http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-5/p13.html Interesting idea at first glance. What do the Vortexian resident geniuses think? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 05/05/06 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 21:28:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A4S0DN008502; Mon, 9 May 2005 21:28:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A4RvGK008465; Mon, 9 May 2005 21:27:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:27:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: SMOT Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 23:31:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <42802E59.7060805 pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I disagree. Your zeal is not letting you think clearly. He needs gravity to break the flux field and drop the ball. OU requires more energy out than put in, right? Gravity, in this case IS a power source that must be included in the energy calculation. I think it is relatively safe to say that 2nd law is valid in ALL cases... OU is claimed only when the true power source is not known, not non-existent (some poor chap on the other end of your hyper-dimensional energy straw is getting a raw deal). Eventually all energy sources will be found and OU claims debunked. Moving a ball around a SMOT track is a nice Sharper Image desk toy (if it really could be made to work), but I really don't see how this kind of motive power could be harnessed to do work. Stephen I too once shared your intoxication with the concept of what Greg proposed in SMOT and RMOD, but as with all intoxications the hangover is not too far behind (and the more you 'drink' the worse the pain). AND as with most hangovers, one is inclined to swear off the stuff for a while after surviving the experience. 8^) -john -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Gravity is a conservative force. There is nothing there to "harvest", save by letting something fall down and _stay_ _down_. Waterwheels, black holes, and brown dwarfs do that. But Greg is talking about something more. Greg is talking about letting something fall down and then raising it up again, and getting energy out of the whole circuit, from starting point back to the starting point. That certainly _IS_ "OU" -- it's free energy, perpetual motion, a violation of the First Law. It's radical. And it's the whole point in his magic arrangement of magnets which will pull on a steel ball on the way in but then let it go without resistance on the way out. Proof that gravity isn't conservative would be, to say the least, an important result. The Minto wheel is solar powered: solar energy goes in, mechanical energy comes out. Greg's "wheel" isn't powered: zero Gibbs free energy goes in, mechanical energy comes out. That's a big difference. > At best an RMOD is nothing more than a magnetically powered minto wheel. > You can't get energy out of static magnets, because the field is conservative. There is no "nothing more..." about Greg's alleged invention; it's radically different. > -john > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Nick Palmer [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk] > *Sent:* Friday, May 06, 2005 2:19 PM > *To:* Vortex-L > *Subject:* SMOT > > John Steck wrote:- > < too (not me so I must temper my indignation).>> > > Well, he refunded me and even offered to send me A$50 extra for the > inconvenience... If Greg is wrong about the SMOT then he is more > likely to > be deluded rather than an out and out conman. I think anyone should > be concentrating on what he originally called the RMOD which he > claimed turned > for days but eventually suffered bearing failure. He has even uploaded a > couple of drawings of this RMOD to his site. Right. Drawings. For sure. What happened to the original device -- stolen by little green men? Nobody should be concentrating on this at all, and that includes me, so as of this moment I resolve to stop posting on this particular topic... -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 05/05/09 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 21:43:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A4hODN017854; Mon, 9 May 2005 21:43:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A4hKwX017811; Mon, 9 May 2005 21:43:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:43:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050510054314.006887e8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 05:43:14 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:19 pm 09-05-05 -0400, Stephen wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Once upon a time I _new_ [sic] someone ... > > Once upon a time I could type an English sentence. Sigh... The trouble is that we all tend to rely too much on spelling checkers and cos the internet is such an informal, instant medium we don't bother to read wot we rote. ================================= I have a spelling checker, It came with my PC. It plane lee marks four my revue Miss steaks aye can knot sea. Eye ran this poem threw it, Your sure reel glad two no. Its vary polished in it's weigh. My checker tolled me sew. Etc.......... ================================= Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 9 22:09:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4A59ODN030052; Mon, 9 May 2005 22:09:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4A59LUu030020; Mon, 9 May 2005 22:09:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 22:09:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050510060919.006a0758 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 06:09:19 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone Resent-Message-ID: <6CH-ND.A.3UH.AIEgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:35 pm 09-05-05 -0400, you wrote: >Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >>The story unfolded over a number of weeks, and in the end the film he'd >>made of the climactic incident in the story vanished unexpectedly just >>before he could show it to me to prove it was all true. Sound >>familiar? Aside from the substitution of a nifty home-made energy source >>for a nifty home-made explosive, the only difference, really, is that the >>"G" who told me this was someone I knew in the Youth Choir at my church >>and there was absolutely no possibility of his making any money out of it, >>nor out of any of his other little lies which I occasionally noticed. > >Such people are harmless, unless they miss their calling. They should be >employed in Hollywood or as science fiction writers. In the early 19th >century people often told "tall tales" for amusement, and no one considered >it lying. In his autobiography "Growing Up" Russell Baker described a >wonderful uncle who amused the kids by telling tales about his adventures >in the US Marines when he fought six-headed monsters in the jungles of >South America. Even if they believed him at first there was really no harm >in it. On the contrary, it helped them develop a vivid imagination and a >fine sense of humor. > >Such people only cause harm when they end up in the wrong job, such as when >they become researchers or the head of the CIA. By the same token, an >honest but dull, plodding, unimaginative person makes a fine programmer or >a conscientious industrial researcher, but you would not want to put him in >charge of writing the screenplay for a movie. > >- Jed There are two types of researchers, the interpolators, "dull, plodding, unimaginative", and the extrapolators - people who no doubt in their childhood (under the age of 12 say) told all kind of porkies but who transferred their imaginative skills (but not the lies) into their professional lives. Now I consider that the bleeding edge of research in general (and the Vortex group in particular) consists largely of such extrapolators. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 05:40:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ACe5DN017729; Tue, 10 May 2005 05:40:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ACe3cG017711; Tue, 10 May 2005 05:40:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 05:40:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dU8z9v15bnntmihbZLR1lJN0wI2p5wnlLtjo4V0cxqnRfQrsPY7kcBz874lz9h99; Message-ID: <410-220055210113938980 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Airport Security & Stargate Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 06:39:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b3222d38a1a89c7f43b9640fbe5cafa0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.13 Resent-Message-ID: <3FuNDD.A.mUE.iuKgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Would you end up in a tortilla factory in Atlanta, or possibly an out-sourced computer factory in India if those metal detector Hellhole Coil airport "security portals" were round instead of rectangular? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Would you end up in a tortilla factory in Atlanta, or possibly an
out-sourced computer factory in India if those metal detector
Hellhole Coil  airport "security portals" were round instead of rectangular?
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 05:50:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ACoIDN025893; Tue, 10 May 2005 05:50:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ACoGTl025876; Tue, 10 May 2005 05:50:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 05:50:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <008401c5555e$c3bdcd90$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000e01c55507$c3db7a40$e8037841 xptower> Subject: Re: Japan backs off?? Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:25:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BlankRichard wrote: Do I see the ultimate intimidation story emerging or is it simple politics doing what it does best. I can't imagine Japan letting this go http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/30695/story.htm#top Richard ----------------------- I see an attack of good sense. Japan can get wrok onthe project without incurring the larger cost. The project is likely to be a bust, along with the rest of the hot fusion projects of the last decades. In Japan are Mizuno and Iwamura [at Mitsubishi] and Arata, who are significant people inthe CF/LENR world. Someone in the Japanese government may be realizing that the future does not belong to hot fusion. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 06:30:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ADUZDN011511; Tue, 10 May 2005 06:30:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ADURpm011445; Tue, 10 May 2005 06:30:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 06:30:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <4280B5B4.3D0DBA39 centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:23:00 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The SMOT game over, Greg Watson gone References: <004c01c553de$ace68200$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <004e01c554c2$720bc610$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <427FB304.8070001@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > So I'd say that as a character, Greg is extremely plausible, even if his > story isn't. > > (Let this be a lesson to everyone involved in the free-energy field...) Hi All, I never got my money back; but I am still not convinced that Greg was a lying con artist. Is it possible that he was getting a "Hutchinson effect" because of some strange local electromagnetic condition? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 06:33:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ADX7DN012900; Tue, 10 May 2005 06:33:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ADX4Ls012873; Tue, 10 May 2005 06:33:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 06:33:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=g+nz396ZHf4puUJyafyTpW6zvBns2l4jflUlgN/gP/cnSzKPmXYhiljdZogAtSA2; Message-ID: <410-220055210123240430 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Asphalt Shingle Color Choices? Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:32:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c157a5a45a8ea1363bd77faa8ea98916350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Last October a freak hail storm severely damaged many asphalt roofs in this area of Albuquerque. The insurance companies are picking up the tab for total re-roofing. My first choice was a "white" shingle to cut down on summer cooling costs, but I was out-voted by the lady folk, whom prefer something closer to a reddish brown to match the sort of reddish orange brick. My concession required that a thermostat-controlled attic vent fan be installed for the summer heat problem which would allow for some solar heat augmentation to offset the $1.00 per Therm (100,000 Btu) natural gas cost in the winter. Note that the $1.00 per Therm is getting close to the price/therm for gasoline and diesel/fuel-oil. I studied over this LBL research info, which suggests that shingle color doesn't mean all that much anyhow. http://eetd.lbl.gov/coolroof/asshingl.htm Thoughts, before the roofers get here? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Last October a freak hail storm severely damaged many asphalt roofs in this area
of Albuquerque. The insurance companies are picking up the tab for
total re-roofing.
 
My first choice was a "white" shingle to cut down on summer cooling
costs, but I was out-voted by the lady folk, whom prefer something closer to a reddish brown
to match the sort of reddish orange brick.
 
My concession required that a thermostat-controlled attic vent fan be installed
for the summer heat problem which would allow for
some solar heat augmentation to offset the $1.00 per Therm (100,000 Btu)
natural gas cost in the winter. Note that the $1.00 per Therm is getting close to the
price/therm for gasoline and diesel/fuel-oil.
 
I studied over this LBL research info, which suggests that shingle color
doesn't mean all that much anyhow.
 
 
Thoughts, before the roofers get here?
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 06:58:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ADvmDN028818; Tue, 10 May 2005 06:57:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ADvaAT028709; Tue, 10 May 2005 06:57:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 06:57:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050510095715.03268270 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:57:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Outsourcing to Pakistan by video Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is an article about the ultimate form of outsourcing and video telecommuting. I described this sort of thing briefly in chapter 17 of my book. This is what the world is coming to. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/09/AR2005050901158.html QUOTES: "Virtual Secretary Puts New Face on Pakistan Despite Area's Instability, More U.S. Firms Are Offshoring There By S. Mitra Kalita Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, May 10, 2005; Page A01 In a chic downtown lobby across the street from the Old Executive Office Building, Saadia Musa answers phones, orders sandwiches and lets in the FedEx guy. And she does it all from Karachi, Pakistan. Saadia Musa, on a big screen in the District, works from Pakistan as a receptionist for the Resource Group, a call-center company founded by Zia Chishti. As receptionist for the Resource Group, Musa greets employees and visitors via a flat screen hanging on the lobby's wall. . . ." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 07:42:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AEfSDN025402; Tue, 10 May 2005 07:41:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AEfPK4025370; Tue, 10 May 2005 07:41:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:41:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=NtLZdvJpybfX8s6mA5OxpuEuvsvrEBmMiH9PyyBR5VbnElwFyg+bBCrxZhR4wry5; Message-ID: <410-220055210134058590 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Asphalt Shingle Color Choices? Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:40:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405d2c95637a0b1ac8c6a5072398ddbd6e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.182 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The LBL calculated Temperature Rise & SRI value: http://eetd.lbl.gov/coolroof/ref_01.htm "Temperature Rise Formula for estimation of maximum roof temperature rise. We have used simple, basic heat transfer equations to estimate peak roof temperatures, based on the assumptions listed below. Lower peak roof temperatures contribute less thermal stress, and likely lead to longer roof lifetimes in some systems. Actually, we estimate and tabulate the maximum temperature rise above ambient air temperature. To obtain the absolute maximum roof temperature, add the maximum temperature rise in the table to your estimate of the maximum air temperature. Assumptions are: The maximum roof temperature is primarily determined by external heat transfers (as, for example, for an insulated roof.) Heat storage effects in the roof are neglected. (Heat storage, as for example, in a concrete roof, does reduce peak roof temperatures, but the offset air conditioning load tends to appear in the evening hours, as heat is released from storage.) Solar flux is Io = 1 kW per square meter of roof. Sky temperature is 10 deg. C (18 deg. F) below air temperature. The heat transfer coefficient for infrared radiative cooling is hr = 6.1 W /(sq. meter . deg. C) times the thermal emittance (this parameter is derived from the Stefan-Boltzmann constant). The maximum temperature rise of an exposed black surface (solar reflectance = 0.05, infrared emittance = 0.90) is 50 deg. C (90 deg. F). This number is based on observations by a number of observers of the maximum temperature rise of black surfaces in full sun and with low wind speed. The uncertainty in this number is roughly 30%. This assumption allows us to mathematically solve for the heat transfer coefficient for roof cooling by convection, which is then found to be hc = 12.4 W/(sq. meter . deg. C). This is in the range that would be expected if we simply estimated this parameter from engineering textbooks on heat transfer. The weak temperature dependence of this parameter is henceforth neglected. With these assumptions the heat transfer equation reads (1-R)Io = (hc + hr) (max. temp. rise) + hr (10 deg. C), where R is the solar reflectance, and 10 deg. C is the sky temperature depression below air temperature. Thus the maximum temperature rise is found by solving this equation for each material, using the solar reflectance and infrared emittance values from the tables. Solar Reflectance Index The Solar Reflectance Index (SRI.) is a measure of the roof's ability to reject solar heat, as shown by a small temperature rise. It is defined so that a standard black (reflectance 0.05, emittance 0.90) is 0 and a standard white (reflectance 0.80, emittance 0.90) is 100. For example, the standard black has a temperature rise of 90 deg. F (50 deg. C) in full sun, and the standard white has a temperature rise of 14.6 deg. F (8.1 deg. C). Once the maximum temperature rise of a given material has been computed, the SRI can be computed by interpolating between the values for white and black. Materials with the highest SRI values are the coolest choices for roofing. Due to the way SRI is defined, particularly hot materials can even take slightly negative values, and particularly cool materials can even exceed 100. The Tamko Products 25 year shingle to be used: http://www.tamko.com/residential/shingles/3/eli-g-seal.htm Color Choices: http://www.tamko.com/pdf/literature/phil_3tab_stuf.pdf#page=2 The existing (11 year old roof shingle is a gray) and the attic is a blazing inferno by 10:00 AM. Help!! Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The LBL calculated Temperature Rise & SRI value:
 
 
"Temperature Rise
Formula for estimation of maximum roof temperature rise.

We have used simple, basic heat transfer equations to estimate peak roof temperatures, based on the assumptions listed below. Lower peak roof temperatures contribute less thermal stress, and likely lead to longer roof lifetimes in some systems. Actually, we estimate and tabulate the maximum temperature rise above ambient air temperature. To obtain the absolute maximum roof temperature, add the maximum temperature rise in the table to your estimate of the maximum air temperature.

Assumptions are:

The maximum roof temperature is primarily determined by external heat transfers (as, for example, for an insulated roof.)
Heat storage effects in the roof are neglected. (Heat storage, as for example, in a concrete roof, does reduce peak roof temperatures, but the offset air conditioning load tends to appear in the evening hours, as heat is released from storage.)
Solar flux is Io = 1 kW per square meter of roof.
Sky temperature is 10 deg. C (18 deg. F) below air temperature.
The heat transfer coefficient for infrared radiative cooling is hr = 6.1 W /(sq. meter . deg. C) times the thermal emittance (this parameter is derived from the Stefan-Boltzmann constant).
The maximum temperature rise of an exposed black surface (solar reflectance = 0.05, infrared emittance = 0.90) is 50 deg. C (90 deg. F). This number is based on observations by a number of observers of the maximum temperature rise of black surfaces in full sun and with low wind speed. The uncertainty in this number is roughly 30%. This assumption allows us to mathematically solve for the heat transfer coefficient for roof cooling by convection, which is then found to be hc = 12.4 W/(sq. meter . deg. C). This is in the range that would be expected if we simply estimated this parameter from engineering textbooks on heat transfer. The weak temperature dependence of this parameter is henceforth neglected.

With these assumptions the heat transfer equation reads

(1-R)Io = (hc + hr) (max. temp. rise) + hr (10! deg. C) ,

where R is the solar reflectance, and 10 deg. C is the sky temperature depression below air temperature. Thus the maximum temperature rise is found by solving this equation for each material, using the solar reflectance and infrared emittance values from the tables.

Solar Reflectance Index
The Solar Reflectance Index (SRI.) is a measure of the roof's ability to reject solar heat, as shown by a small temperature rise. It is defined so that a standard black (reflectance 0.05, emittance 0.90) is 0 and a standard white (reflectance 0.80, emittance 0.90) is 100. For example, the standard black has a temperature rise of 90 deg. F (50 deg. C) in full sun, and the standard white has a temperature rise of 14.6 deg. F (8.1 deg. C). Once the maximum temperature rise of a given material has been computed, the SRI can be computed by interpolating between the values for white and black.


Materials with the highest SRI values are the coolest choices for roofing. Due to the way SRI is defined, particularly hot materials can even take slightly negative values, and particularly cool materials can even exceed 100.

The Tamko Products 25 year shingle to be used:
 
 
 
Color Choices:
 
 
The existing (11 year old roof shingle is a gray) and the attic is a blazing inferno by
10:00 AM.
 
Help!!
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 07:52:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AEpmDN031185; Tue, 10 May 2005 07:51:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AEphZC031137; Tue, 10 May 2005 07:51:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:51:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Asphalt Shingle Color Choices? Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:51:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050510145131.DUXV2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Help!! Lighter is better except that you must pay for the fungus inhibitors if you have any foliage nearby. My shingles are a light cinnamon. The real secret is to keep that roof turbine running. The captive heat actually reduces the life of your roof. Mine works on temperature *and* humidity (a necessity here in Atlanta). Better still, put on corrugated steel. It not only reflects sunlight but generates a pleasant noise which makes it easy to sleep during rainfall. Hail is hell, tho. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 08:24:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AFNnDN027735; Tue, 10 May 2005 08:23:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AFNhFH027597; Tue, 10 May 2005 08:23:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:23:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005b01c55572$e10fa9e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-220055210134058590 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: OT : Asphalt Shingle Color Choices? Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:13:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01C55538.32E4C470" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <8zTgTB.A.8uG.9HNgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C55538.32E4C470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, "The existing (11 year old roof shingle is a gray) and the attic is a = blazing inferno by10:00 AM." My former neighbor coated his old shingles with this product (see the = A-10) http://www.protek-ca.com/product_info/product_line_overview.html Expensive but cheaper than new shingles... and a white roof takes some = getting-used-to.... ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C55538.32E4C470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
 
"The existing (11 year old roof shingle is a gray) and the attic is = a=20 blazing inferno by10:00 AM."
 
My former neighbor coated his old shingles with = this=20 product (see the A-10)
http://www.protek-ca.com/product_info/product_line_overview.html
 
Expensive but cheaper than new shingles... and a = white=20 roof takes some = getting-used-to....
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C55538.32E4C470-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 08:50:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AFneDN016791; Tue, 10 May 2005 08:49:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AFncnw016765; Tue, 10 May 2005 08:49:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:49:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=mz6N+BfC7H3tDx7h5ehd9r67ZC6SGRiUkLa25DBjCVrebT1/AtKdwvJWjsDyBDJQ; Message-ID: <410-220055210144849280 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Asphalt Shingle Color Choices? Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:48:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a9428c3968ea716448fdc691e0e6e95c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.172 Resent-Message-ID: <1LmCGB.A.4FE.RgNgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] Terry wrote: > > Lighter is better except that you must pay for the fungus inhibitors if you > have any foliage nearby. My shingles are a light cinnamon. > Fungus might not be a problem here in the arid Southwest but my daughter noted that the few white roofs in the area had dark areas as though they had lost some granules. This is possible if the "white" is marble chip CaCO3 which leaches due to the CO2 in rain or dew. That happened to a built-up roof of marble chips on our first home in the valley. > > The real secret is to keep that roof turbine running. The captive heat > actually reduces the life of your roof. Mine works on temperature *and* > humidity (a necessity here in Atlanta). > I have a powered 1250 CFM (1/8 Hp) thermostat controlled roof-mount attic vent fan ready to install with the electrical wiring from the evaporative cooler close by, for 120 v.a.c. so it will run off the cooler circulating pump. > > Better still, put on corrugated steel. It not only reflects sunlight but > generates a pleasant noise which makes it easy to sleep during rainfall. Hail > is hell, tho. > I'll buy that, but there are too many hips and valleys. Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 08:50:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AFoGDN017171; Tue, 10 May 2005 08:50:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AFo1bF016972; Tue, 10 May 2005 08:50:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:50:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4280D811.4000901 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:49:37 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: johnsteck tetrahelix.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >I disagree. Your zeal is not letting you think clearly. > You misunderstand. It's my knowledge of physics which causes me to see Greg's claims for what they are, not my "zeal". >He needs gravity >to break the flux field and drop the ball. > Bosh. Two conservative fields => energy out == energy in. Greg claims to be violating this. >OU requires more energy out than >put in, right? Gravity, in this case IS a power source that must be >included in the energy calculation. > > Nonsense. You get back _exactly_ what you put in with (Newtonian) gravity. It's not a power source. With a closed track the ball ends up at its starting point and the net gain from gravity is zero. With a net drop (e.g., rolling a ball down a hill) there's a gain in energy but Newton already explained that one, quite some time back. Do you understand the difference between a "power source" and a force, or the difference between power, force, and energy in general? Do you understand the difference between energy _storage_, such as happens with a spring or with a boulder we push up a hill, and things we commonly call "power sources", such as sunlight or burning coal? In SMOT both gravity and the magnets are acting as springs. They can store energy and give it back, but they're not "power sources". Did you miss the bit where Greg said he suspected the magnets might be getting cold during the run, but hadn't checked it? That was apparently his attempt at a smokescreen to show that the device wasn't OU, of course, but it made no sense -- there's no mechanism at all to cool off a magnet as a result of its action on a piece of iron. (If there were, it would be action at a distance of the most grotesque kind, to say nothing of another sort of first law violation.) >I think it is relatively safe to say that 2nd law is valid in ALL cases... > > Irrelevant too. Greg's talking about first law violations, not second law: _something_ provides the energy to overcome friction as the ball goes around the track and there isn't any power going in. Gibbs free energy never increases, except in SMOT. >OU is claimed only when the true power source is not known, not non-existent >(some poor chap on the other end of your hyper-dimensional energy straw is >getting a raw deal). Eventually all energy sources will be found and OU >claims debunked. > > In this case he has nothing but static magnets and a locally flat gravitational field. There is no man behind the curtain -- there's nothing present that isn't already extremely well understood. That, of course, is why he can't make the device work. By the way, conservation of energy isn't a given at all scales; in the general relativity model of the universe it's not even a well defined concept. But at low energy densities using common material objects occupying a small volume of space, as in the the SMOT device case, conservation of energy can be safely anticipated at a level far, far finer than any measurement we can make. >Moving a ball around a SMOT track is a nice Sharper Image desk toy (if it >really could be made to work), but I really don't see how this kind of >motive power could be harnessed to do work. > > I will be blunt: This statement indicates that you have completely missed the point. It sounds exactly like Greg's either ignorant or dissembling statement that all he had been able to make was a "toy" which wasn't of any great importance. Do you understand Newtonian mechanics? Do you understand that, according to all that is known from physics experiments and theory for the last several centuries, it is flatly impossible for a ball to go around a (mechanical) track, over and over, indefinitely, without a power source? Put the whole thing in a big box and measure the temperature. Friction with the track will eventually warm the system up. Voila! Heat out, nothing in. >Stephen I too once shared your intoxication with the concept of what Greg >proposed in SMOT and RMOD, > You seem completely confused here. I have never been "intoxicated" with any concept of Greg's -- it was obvious from the start that he was talking about a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. I was, however, polite in the initial discussions. To repeat: >Greg is talking about letting something fall down and then raising it up >again, and getting energy out of the whole circuit, from starting point >back to the starting point. That certainly _IS_ "OU" -- it's free >energy, perpetual motion, a violation of the First Law. It's radical. >And it's the whole point in his magic arrangement of magnets which will >pull on a steel ball on the way in but then let it go without resistance >on the way out. > >Proof that gravity isn't conservative would be, to say the least, an >important result. > > If you don't understand this then you need to brush up on your physics. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 08:52:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AFqBDN018582; Tue, 10 May 2005 08:52:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AFq78A018550; Tue, 10 May 2005 08:52:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:52:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CTbchl2FYgrI5mkh/Kdg208wlNwalGXnzYYgv2yRCc9UUWsCELHRWEn6x1Z/7eDj; Message-ID: <410-220055210145142460 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT : Asphalt Shingle Color Choices? Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:51:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405a02c54090580ee914c3492bc8412e81350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.172 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII We're locked in on the contractor and price for the shingle re-roof. Frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l Sent: 5/10/05 10:23:50 AM Subject: Re: OT : Asphalt Shingle Color Choices? Fred, "The existing (11 year old roof shingle is a gray) and the attic is a blazing inferno by10:00 AM." My former neighbor coated his old shingles with this product (see the A-10) http://www.protek-ca.com/product_info/product_line_overview.html Expensive but cheaper than new shingles... and a white roof takes some getting-used-to.... ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
We're locked in on the contractor and price for the shingle re-roof.
 
Frederick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/10/05 10:23:50 AM
Subject: Re: OT : Asphalt Shingle Color Choices?

Fred,
 
"The existing (11 year old roof shingle is a gray) and the attic is a blazing inferno by10:00 AM."
 
My former neighbor coated his old shingles with this product (see the A-10)
 
Expensive but cheaper than new shingles... and a white roof takes some getting-used-to....
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 10:03:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AH2RDN029147; Tue, 10 May 2005 10:02:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AH2KJN029018; Tue, 10 May 2005 10:02:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:02:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: SMOT Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:01:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050510170156.IRWX2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > If you don't understand this then you need to brush up on your physics. Let's talk about the physics. A magnetic gradient pulls the ball up a ramp. Suddenly there's a hole in the ramp and gravity pulls the ball through the hole. The ball is still spinning when it falls. What imparted the angular momentum? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 11:31:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AIUwDN024722; Tue, 10 May 2005 11:30:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AIUuDT024708; Tue, 10 May 2005 11:30:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:30:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4280FDD1.7070209 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:30:41 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: <20050510170156.IRWX2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050510170156.IRWX2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> >> >>If you don't understand this then you need to brush up on your physics. >> >> > >Let's talk about the physics. A magnetic gradient pulls the ball up a ramp. Suddenly there's a hole in the ramp and gravity pulls the ball through the hole. The ball is still spinning when it falls. What imparted the angular momentum? > > Here's a quick picture showing some of the most important forces (nb -- those black force arrows on the ramp have somewhat arbitrary directions): http://physicsinsights.net/images/ball-rolling-up-ramp.png From the point of view of the ball, as it accelerated up the ramp, the ramp itself applied a tangential force to the surface of the ball which caused it to spin; thence came the angular momentum (in the frame of reference of the ball). Angular momentum must be measured at a particular point in space. It only makes sense to talk about it with regard to a particular origin. In particular, it's conserved, but that statement only makes sense in a situation where you've chosen one point about which to measure the total value of L. So let's say we measure it at the point the ball lands on when it hits the ground after falling through the hole. From that POV, as the ball moves up the ramp, the ball gains angular momentum both because of its spin and because of the motion of its center of mass along a line which doesn't pass through the point we have (arbitrarily) chosen as the center of our coordinate system. At the same time, the RAMP gains angular momentum which is equal and opposite to the angular momentum of the spin of the ball, as a result of the force the BALL exerts on the ramp as it spins up. Finally, the MAGNET gains angular momentum which is equal and opposite to the angular momentum due to the motion of the ball's center of mass along a line which doesn't pass through the origin. Now, the ramp is not accelerating in these coordinates, despite the force the ball exerts on it. So, the ramp is also being acted on by other forces (it's attached to the apparatus which is attached to the floor which is attached to the ground) and the L gained by the ramp is actually passed to the environment. Similarly, the magnet doesn't accelerate; its L value is also passed to the environment. But what is "the environment"? It's the Earth itself, which is so massive that we don't normally notice tiny changes in its angular momentum due to things like balls rolling up ramps. In other words, the Earth itself provides an essentially infinite source/sink for L, which is one reason why it's not always apparent that L is really conserved in real-world situations. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 11:59:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AIxU6r011397; Tue, 10 May 2005 11:59:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AIxRHH011377; Tue, 10 May 2005 11:59:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:59:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050510145115.0327b410 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:59:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Japan backs off?? In-Reply-To: <008401c5555e$c3bdcd90$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <000e01c55507$c3db7a40$e8037841 xptower> <008401c5555e$c3bdcd90$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >I see an attack of good sense. Japan can get work on the project without >incurring the larger cost. The project is likely to be a bust, along with >the rest of the hot fusion projects of the last decades. Cost is probably an issue. The Japanese government is broke. Very broke. Much more broke than the US government relative to the GNP. >In Japan are Mizuno and Iwamura [at Mitsubishi] and Arata, who are >significant people inthe CF/LENR world. Someone in the Japanese government >may be realizing that the future does not belong to hot fusion. I doubt that. There may be a few people in the government aware of the situation, but Mizuno sees no sign of high-level recognition. Also, the people who make this kind of decision in the Japanese government know little about science and care less. The decisions are political. The hot fusion program is seen as another giant make-work project. The Japanese government loves make-work projects and it has poured trillions of dollars into them. They have cockeyed priorities. A third of the houses do not have flush toilets, but instead of building sewer systems the government has built hundreds of thousands of kilometers of roads where you do not see a single car, all day long. (I am not exaggerating. I go hiking and jogging on these roads. You could take nap in the middle of one at midday.) See: A. Kerr, "Dogs and Demons." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 12:12:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AJCL6r018107; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:12:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AJCIdO018075; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:12:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:12:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: SMOT Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:12:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050510191203.PQXI2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9Mb_SC.A.QaE.QeQgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > In other words, the Earth itself provides > an essentially infinite source/sink for L, which is one reason why it's > not always apparent that L is really conserved in real-world situations. Hmmm. But, it is the magnetic field which imparts the balls momentum and the ball exits the field retaining that momentum. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 12:31:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AJUi6r028380; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:30:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AJUFKO028134; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:30:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:30:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <009f01c55596$9d9ec2d0$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Mills_secret_ Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:06:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <_KWh7C.A.T3G.FvQgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46 > -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > >2) Isolated hydrogen atoms can be induced to 'shink' to lower states by the proximity of catalyst atom(s) presenting an 'energy hole' of the right value. Energy is transfered by a 'resonant transfer' mechanism which does not involve radiation. This transfer is known in physics and chemistry in other contexts. > > Since all matter is electromagnetic in nature, is must involve > radiation in some form, though it may be near field rather than > far field. ----------------- According to a mathematical physicist whom I respect, Robin is on target. the 'rt' interaction can be understood by antenna theory, in which it is known that for 'resonant conditions' the apparent size of the antenna can be greater than its physical size. I don't fully grasp this, not well enough to argue it with the resident critics on HSG. It does point to some substantial distance for the reaction which is "near field" and does not involve the exchange of a photon. Mills cites the Forster effect, which is similar, but the equations for the Forster effect are for a bipolar situation and very short distances. > > > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 12:31:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AJVD6r028595; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:31:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AJUJlu028186; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:30:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:30:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00a001c55596$9fca2e50$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Mills_secret_ Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:21:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46 > -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > >3) Identified catalysts include K+, K+++, Rb+, Sr+, He+, Ar+, Ne+, O+++, and > > It is K, not K+++ that is the catalyst. K+++ is the end product > after the catalytic action (which then eventually returns to K by > repeatedly capturing free electrons). > --------------------- Potassium catalysis is possible for 2K+ *and* for K+++. K+ is produced in the thermal reactor by evaporation and dissociation of KNO3 and K+++ results from the dissociationof K2CO3. In the reactor, encounters of K+++ and H yield H(1/4), but K+++ can capture electrons to become K+ and two of those with H yield H(1/2). See "A Comprehensive Study of Spectra of the Bound-Free Hyperfine Levels of Novel Hydride Ion H-(1/2), Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Air", page 19, second paragraph from the bottom. See also Conrad's study of the thermal reactor in "Emission in the deep vacuum ultraviolet from a plasma formed by incansescently heating hydrogen gas with trace amounts of potassium carbonate", in Plasma Sources Science and Technology. He did not do the same spectroscopic studeis that BLP did. I have seen another reference in a Mills paper linking K+++ to K2CO3 dissociation, but can't find it at the moment. Don't ask me why the nitrate and carbonate behave differently in the thermal reactor. Mike Carrell > > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 12:44:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AJiN6r003756; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:44:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AJiL4c003732; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:44:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:44:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00a501c55598$9cfd8ee0$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <842t71dpo9t417mf8e40h0cdgpn1q548v0@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Mills_secret_ Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:43:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46 > -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > >3) Identified catalysts include K+, K+++, Rb+, Sr+, He+, Ar+, Ne+, O+++, and > > O+++ is also not a catalyst. O++ however is. Correction noted. Got carried away with K+++ [see related reply]. > [snip] > >The catch is that these reactions occur between isolated atoms. In the early electrolytic cells, at the cathode interface, K+ ions and H atoms are both produced and can interact to produce heat. But lots of other things are also going on. The K+ state is transitory, H atoms combine to H2, and so do not participate. > > Under these conditions, K (metal) atoms are also produced (these > are catalysts), though they are also transitory, rapidly reacting > with water molecules to produce K+ ions. > [snip] > > > > >Mills primarly works with dilute gases, at about 1 Torr. Here the mean free path is large enough that atoms are isolated. A typical gas mix is 95% catalyst and 5% H, to increase the probalility of H and catalyst atoms coming close enough for the energy transfer to take place. Even with the dilute gases, substantial, tangible heat output is seen. > > The chance of this happening increases with a *decrease* in mean > free path. More properly, it happens more frequently at higher > pressures, because the collision rate is higher at higher > pressures (for collisions of every type). I would seem so, but the studies by Phillips indicate an optimal pressure. It does not necessarily get better at higher pressures and lower MFP. Mills has commented to me that the inetractions are very complex and must be empirically determined. I'm sure the BLP crew have explored parameter space, but are not telling all they found. BTW atoms (molecules) > are always isolated in any gas or plasma, at any pressure. The > only importance of changing the mean free path can be in the > extent to which the walls of the chamber, or the exhaust system - > if present, play a role. > What primarily determines the chances of a catalytic couple coming > together is the ratio of the gasses. Which is why the gas reactors use a 20:1 ratio of catalyst gas to hydrogen. > > > > >As noted above, there are competing processes. The catalyst atoms have to be ionized, in some cases by microwaves, and react before they capture electrons and have to be ionized again [more energy]. The H atoms can form H2, which will not react. Optimizing these parameters is empirical; twice as big may not work twice as well. > > H atoms form H2 in a three body collision. These are rare, and > thus can be ignored when engineering for energy output. True, so the 2H>H2 is not significant. More > important is that the catalysts ions not get a chance to recombine > with free electrons. This chance is reduced as the number of free > electrons is reduced. Thus optimal catalysis would take place if > separate streams of catalyst ions (without electrons) and hydrogen > _atoms_ were combined into a single stream. Of course the > resultant stream would be positively charged, and would later need > to be neutralised with the missing electrons from the catalyst > ions. > Perhaps with clever engineering this could be put to use as part > of a heat powered electrical generator. All of this is part of the "exercises to be left to the student". One can think of an ion gun firing ionized catalyst into an atmosphere of neutral H atoms. Such might be done on a micro or macroscopic scale. Such projects can swallow lots of resources, whihc is why Mills seeks partners. > > > > >A practical system must conserve the catalyst. One has to add hydrogen fuel and collect hydrino byproducts while conserving the catalyst. This is not easy in a gas system using, say, argon. it can be liquified and distilled, but this takes energy somewhere, either at a remote facility or in the BLP generator system. Otherwise the catalyst is an expensive consumable. > > It is easy if one lets go of the inherent assumption that one > needs a flowing system. Of course: The flowing system is fine for studying the effect. On the contrary, one needs either a closed > circulatory system, of a completely stationary system (i.e. a > bottle), into which occasionally a small quantity of H2 is added. > As the reaction proceeds, hydrinohydride compounds will form on > the walls of the "bottle", removing them from the plasma, and > necessitating the addition of more H2. > Eventually, the hydrino hydride on the walls will be consumed, > after the hydrinos shrink to the point that fusion reactions > become possible. These are but beginning examples of things to be tried by Jed's hordes of experimenters which may be unleased by the realization that the BLP reactions are "real". > [snip] > >A practical system has to get hydrogen fuel from somewhere. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it can be from electrolysis powered by a local BLP reactor, or from wind or solar farms. To do it locally, the BLP reactor must supply enough energy to run a thermal electrical generator [with its losses] and support ancillary equipment, and have useful power left over. This is a formidible engineering challenge. > > An alternative possibility is use of one of the various thermal > methods of hydrogen production, using thermal energy from a BLP > reaction directly. An interesting twist might be to incorporate > all the necessary chemicals in a BLP reactor, where different > temperatures reign in different parts of the reactor, and simply > let nature take its course. OTOH, none of this is actually likely > to be necessary, since a BLP reactor that is producing well Over > Unity, should be able to accept water as a fuel directly. The > energetic particles and UV in the reactor would soon split the > water, and even oxidize the O to O++ turning it into a catalyst. I agree. This has occurred to me as well. > > > > > >Water is the ideal fuel, cheap, and the oxygen catalyst need not be conserved. > > Agreed. However this has the disadvantage that O17 may be > produced, necessitating shielding the reactor because of the > likely gammas. Why should O17 be produced? so far we are dealing with 'hyperchemistry', not nuclear reactions. But it si possible that when the presently-obvious BLP reactions are scaled up, other reactions of lower probability will be seen. It's new territory. > > >The reaction occurs at low pressure, so the system has to do the work of maintining that vacuum against air pressure. > > I suspect that is simply a result of running it at too low a > temperature. At temperatures of 10s of thousands of degrees, it > would probably run well at pressures well above atmospheric > pressure. I suspect that BLP reactions are contributing to the excess heat seen in the plasma electrolyssis cells. > However containment them becomes more problematic - lessons to be > learned from hot fusion perhaps? Wrong track. Spectroscopy of the Hydrogen alpha line already indicates H at 100,000 C or so, but it is attentuated. If you get the reaction going enough to produce kilowatts of power, you drain the heat off as fast as possible to do useful work. > > >The heat of evaporation of the water would come fromz the environment. > > This is minuscule compared to the energy release from the > reaction, hence can be ignored. > The minimum energy release from a molecule of water (containing > two hydrogen atoms) would be 2*40.8 = 81.6 eV. The energy required > to evaporate a molecule of water ~= 0.47 eV, or only 1 part in 174 > of the minimal energy release. A further 2.96 eV is required to > split the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen, still trivial > compared to the minimal energy release. Which is very encouraging, except thatere is still no [visible] efficient way to get that energy into useful form except a lossy thermal cycle. All of which is an outline of why there has not been a rush of product out the door of BLP to entertain the peanut gallery. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 12:46:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AJjg6r004505; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:45:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AJjeNU004469; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:45:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:45:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42810F4F.7040508 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:45:19 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: <20050510191203.PQXI2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050510191203.PQXI2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <39pWk.A.fFB.j9QgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> >> >>In other words, the Earth itself provides >>an essentially infinite source/sink for L, which is one reason why it's >>not always apparent that L is really conserved in real-world situations. >> >> > >Hmmm. But, it is the magnetic field which imparts the balls momentum and the ball exits the field retaining that momentum. > > No. The rotational kinetic energy was provided as a result of the ball "falling" to a point of lower potential in the (conservative) B-field. The angular momentum was stolen from the Earth, however. The point you are striving for here is that the ball rolled up the ramp, gained kinetic energy, fell off the ramp, and retained the kinetic energy. There are several things wrong with this picture. First, try to plot the direcition of the force acting on the ball due to the magnet throughout the aparatus. I'm no applied E&M whizz, but we don't need precision here: all we need is the fact that the field we're going to plot must be curl-free: we know that metal objects in a static field don't simply start spinning, faster and ever faster. So right away we know there are a lot of field patterns that we CAN'T produce. Here's one (note that the "field" plotted is the force field showing how the B-field would act on a steel ball -- it's _NOT_ the B-field itself): http://physicsinsights.net/images/B-field-with-curl.png A closed loop that passes to the left up high, straight down, and back to the right down low would gain energy: it's not curl-free. Here's a more plausible possible field (again, showing the force field as it would act on a steel ball). This field is radial (though I have only drawn a few of the arrows -- you must picture the rest of them): http://physicsinsights.net/images/Plausible-field.png Now the point to notice about the "plausible" field is that, when the ball falls to ground level directly beneath the magnet, it is at a location where the magnetic field is still stronger than it was at the starting point. Furthermore, since the field is radial, for the ball to roll from "Ball Finish" to "Ball Start" at ground level, it will need to roll _against_ the force of the B field which is, of course, not actually zero at "ground level". Consequence: The net energy given back to the B field in the second half of a closed path will equal the energy gained from the B field on the first half of the path. I'm not claiming that the fields used by Greg matched the ones in my "plausible" diagram. I'm merely observing that (a) it's hard to apply intuition in a case like this without making serious errors, unless you really try to work through all the book-keeping, and (b) you need to take account of the actual value of the B field along the _entire_ path the ball must follow to get back to its starting point. Longer return path => weaker field and it's very easy to mentally substitute "zero field" for "weaker field", which is not correct. Finally, consider what happens in the "Plausible-field" arrangement if we take away the ramp. Put the ball at "Ball Start". The field points diagonally upward ... and the ball will roll to the left, gaining energy until it arrives at "Ball Finish". It doesn't matter which path you choose through the field; the ball finish point is at a lower potential location in the field, and the ball has more kinetic energy there than it does when it's at "ball start". (A real layout which actually caused the ball to roll up the ramp and fall down through the hole, rather than just leaping up to the magnet at that point, would require putting the magnet farther away than I have shown it, and would probably require a shallower angle on the ramp.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 12:52:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AJpe6r008618; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:51:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AJpcnR008594; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:51:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:51:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050510124701.02797870 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:53:31 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Outsourcing to Pakistan by video In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050510095715.03268270 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050510095715.03268270 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There you go. Yes indeed. Distance is becoming less of a "reality." This story is a good follow up to the one that hit the news a while back, about order-takers at McDonalds being located in call centers in other states. God help the civilized world if the root servers get attacked or malware becomes nastier. The entire world will stop. Last time it happened, only Bank of America, and a few others stopped working. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 13:02:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AK1Y71015948; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:02:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AJPacH025341; Tue, 10 May 2005 12:25:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:25:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005601c55595$b9fe8380$a969c218 hanksblackbox> From: "Hank Scudder" To: References: <20050510170156.IRWX2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <4280FDD1.7070209@pobox.com> Subject: Re: SMOT Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:23:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen, I respectfully disagree with your analysis. The rotation of the ball comes from friction with the track as the ball is attracted by the magnet. No friction, the ball would just slide along the track. The magnet doesn't have anything to do with the angular momentum directly. Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: Re: SMOT > > > Terry Blanton wrote: > >>>From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >>> >>>If you don't understand this then you need to brush up on your physics. >>> >> >>Let's talk about the physics. A magnetic gradient pulls the ball up a >>ramp. Suddenly there's a hole in the ramp and gravity pulls the ball >>through the hole. The ball is still spinning when it falls. What >>imparted the angular momentum? >> > Here's a quick picture showing some of the most important forces (nb -- > those black force arrows on the ramp have somewhat arbitrary directions): > > http://physicsinsights.net/images/ball-rolling-up-ramp.png > > From the point of view of the ball, as it accelerated up the ramp, the > ramp itself applied a tangential force to the surface of the ball which > caused it to spin; thence came the angular momentum (in the frame of > reference of the ball). > > Angular momentum must be measured at a particular point in space. It only > makes sense to talk about it with regard to a particular origin. In > particular, it's conserved, but that statement only makes sense in a > situation where you've chosen one point about which to measure the total > value of L. So let's say we measure it at the point the ball lands on > when it hits the ground after falling through the hole. From that POV, as > the ball moves up the ramp, the ball gains angular momentum both because > of its spin and because of the motion of its center of mass along a line > which doesn't pass through the point we have (arbitrarily) chosen as the > center of our coordinate system. At the same time, the RAMP gains angular > momentum which is equal and opposite to the angular momentum of the spin > of the ball, as a result of the force the BALL exerts on the ramp as it > spins up. Finally, the MAGNET gains angular momentum which is equal and > opposite to the angular momentum due to the motion of the ball's center of > mass along a line which doesn't pass through the origin. > > Now, the ramp is not accelerating in these coordinates, despite the force > the ball exerts on it. So, the ramp is also being acted on by other > forces (it's attached to the apparatus which is attached to the floor > which is attached to the ground) and the L gained by the ramp is actually > passed to the environment. Similarly, the magnet doesn't accelerate; its > L value is also passed to the environment. But what is "the environment"? > It's the Earth itself, which is so massive that we don't normally notice > tiny changes in its angular momentum due to things like balls rolling up > ramps. In other words, the Earth itself provides an essentially infinite > source/sink for L, which is one reason why it's not always apparent that L > is really conserved in real-world situations. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 13:04:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AK486r017867; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:04:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AK3pEw017514; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:03:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:03:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: SMOT Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:03:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050510200335.RRCL2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <2DHBRD.A.iRE.mORgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Hank Scudder" > > Stephen, > I respectfully disagree with your analysis. The rotation of the ball > comes from friction with the track as the ball is attracted by the magnet. > No friction, the ball would just slide along the track. The magnet doesn't > have anything to do with the angular momentum directly. But, isn't Stephen saying that momentum is simply transferred to the Earth? Hey, if we all jog from west to east real fast, can we make the day longer? ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 13:22:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AKLw6r002489; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:21:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AKLe61002280; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:21:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:21:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428117BD.5050604 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:21:17 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: <20050510200335.RRCL2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050510200335.RRCL2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: "Hank Scudder" >> >>Stephen, >> I respectfully disagree with your analysis. The rotation of the ball >>comes from friction with the track as the ball is attracted by the magnet. >>No friction, the ball would just slide along the track. The magnet doesn't >>have anything to do with the angular momentum directly. >> >> > >But, isn't Stephen saying that [angular] momentum is simply transferred to the Earth? > >Hey, if we all jog from west to east real fast, can we make the day longer? ;-) > > Yes, but only as long as you keep jogging. As soon as you stop the day length goes back to what it was to start with. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 13:24:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AKNc6r003567; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:23:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AKMiiv003000; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:22:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:22:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42811696.6030005 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:16:22 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: <20050510170156.IRWX2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <4280FDD1.7070209@pobox.com> <005601c55595$b9fe8380$a969c218@hanksblackbox> In-Reply-To: <005601c55595$b9fe8380$a969c218 hanksblackbox> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank Scudder wrote: > Stephen, > I respectfully disagree with your analysis. The rotation of the > ball comes from friction with the track as the ball is attracted by > the magnet. No friction, the ball would just slide along the track. > The magnet doesn't have anything to do with the angular momentum > directly. Right. That's what I was trying to say, I think. Send the ball out into space (in orbit), and slide the ramp to the right while pressing it against the ball, and the ball will spin without any magnet or gravity present. > > Hank > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:30 PM > Subject: Re: SMOT > > >> >> >> Terry Blanton wrote: >> >>>> From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >>>> >>>> If you don't understand this then you need to brush up on your >>>> physics. >>>> >>> >>> Let's talk about the physics. A magnetic gradient pulls the ball up >>> a ramp. Suddenly there's a hole in the ramp and gravity pulls the >>> ball through the hole. The ball is still spinning when it falls. >>> What imparted the angular momentum? >>> >> Here's a quick picture showing some of the most important forces (nb >> -- those black force arrows on the ramp have somewhat arbitrary >> directions): >> >> http://physicsinsights.net/images/ball-rolling-up-ramp.png >> >> From the point of view of the ball, as it accelerated up the ramp, >> the ramp itself applied a tangential force to the surface of the ball >> which caused it to spin; thence came the angular momentum (in the >> frame of reference of the ball). >> >> Angular momentum must be measured at a particular point in space. It >> only makes sense to talk about it with regard to a particular >> origin. In particular, it's conserved, but that statement only makes >> sense in a situation where you've chosen one point about which to >> measure the total value of L. So let's say we measure it at the >> point the ball lands on when it hits the ground after falling through >> the hole. From that POV, as the ball moves up the ramp, the ball >> gains angular momentum both because of its spin and because of the >> motion of its center of mass along a line which doesn't pass through >> the point we have (arbitrarily) chosen as the center of our >> coordinate system. At the same time, the RAMP gains angular momentum >> which is equal and opposite to the angular momentum of the spin of >> the ball, as a result of the force the BALL exerts on the ramp as it >> spins up. Finally, the MAGNET gains angular momentum which is equal >> and opposite to the angular momentum due to the motion of the ball's >> center of mass along a line which doesn't pass through the origin. >> >> Now, the ramp is not accelerating in these coordinates, despite the >> force the ball exerts on it. So, the ramp is also being acted on by >> other forces (it's attached to the apparatus which is attached to the >> floor which is attached to the ground) and the L gained by the ramp >> is actually passed to the environment. Similarly, the magnet doesn't >> accelerate; its L value is also passed to the environment. But what >> is "the environment"? It's the Earth itself, which is so massive that >> we don't normally notice tiny changes in its angular momentum due to >> things like balls rolling up ramps. In other words, the Earth itself >> provides an essentially infinite source/sink for L, which is one >> reason why it's not always apparent that L is really conserved in >> real-world situations. >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 13:38:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AKca6r015848; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:38:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AKcWlr015799; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:38:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:38:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04b101c555a0$310c1190$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050510191203.PQXI2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: SMOT redux Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:38:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > T.B.: Hmmm. But, it is the magnetic field which imparts the > balls momentum and the ball exits the field retaining that > momentum. To make this perpmo short-story longer... and extend it to the limits of credulity (and beyond the 2nd Law), it takes only two letters, and...as is always the situation when you throw quantum mechanics into the ring, fisticuffs may be required to eventually settle things (or else a robust replication). To continue ... PM (perpetual motion in the form of macro-spin) from QM is possible in theory, but probably not yet reduced to practice in a repeatable way, but also one can say that neither a static gravity field nor a static magnetic field could ever be overunity, but yet the 2nd Law has probably seen some repeat violators... and yes, those devious perpmos were no doubt tinkering with 'static' ... (really). ....both fields probably intersect with matter through at least one common pathway - the physical property of "spin" which is also conserved (whether it be angular momentum, or classical spin, but NOT that little devil known as QM spin). You can't explain QM spin easily using existing classical concepts. How does one use classical idea of a "spin" to explain a spin 1/2 particle in which one only regains the identical symmetry upon two complete revolutions? (if you guessed 'two axis spin', you are probably closer to the a decent understanding than is most of mainstream physics). We simply have to accept that we use the same word, but to mean an "end-result" rather than an ongoing "activity" - in that spin will produce a 'real' magnetic moment in either case. Nuclear spin has a resonance all its own, called NMR, which is different from electron spin and also different from domain spin (magnetism). QM 'Spin' has nothing (and everything) to do with anything that's spinning classically, but nevertheless QM spin can be modified with zero real energy input (probaability waves), while the other kinds of spin cannot... but how can the effects of QM spin bleed over into classical spin, if that kind of spin is conserved? Answer: time and gravity. Spin is conserved, on a longer time scale than NMR effects, and it is balanced-out by give-and-take with gravity. The results, when measureable, are known as gravity 'shielding'....consequently, if a system could be engineered where both these fields (gravity and electromagnetism) are active on the same total spin alignmnet of a ball in periodic motion, OU could derive IF a similar periodic situation emerges where the QM spin of nuclei flipped alignment in a regular fashion long enough and with a periodicy adequate to partial affect the classical spin interaction... so that the shielded field was not really static through part of the spin cycle. Claro? OK. To further rationalize this possibility, but with slightly less verbiage : It is easy to show that any reduction (or increase) in gravity can be converted into OU. There is controversial research (Podkletnov-Li-Giovanni-Modanese) demonstrating that gravity can be modified by a spinning superconductor. I am almost positive that will be proven true for superconductors. Many observers have suggested that magnetic domains are a local superconductor. I am almost positive that this is true for magnetic domains. ERGO, the next 'leap of faith' is that there could possibly exist a narrow resonant regime where perpetual motion "appears" in the form of a continuing "macro spin," technically defying the 2nd Law and at the expense of slight gravity reduction on part of that cyclical spin. It is possible that Mssrs. Watson, et al, have hit on this narrow regime at times, and have reported honestly but over-optimistically what they saw, thinking that it would be easy to replicate, but failing to realize how narrow the operating regime is. After all, NMR effects can derive from any number of hidden environmental factors. Perhaps at the exact time frame an experimenter got the ball to roll around miraculously for three or four minutes, the local FM station was broadcasting something in the range of NMR frequencies that flipped the QM spin with just the right periodicy. Uri Geller might be able to do it, quien sabe? Not to mention the experimenters own expectations might 'translate' into real QM effects and then 'real' macro effects. There is a large and growing body of evidence, much of it cited by Prof Tiller of Stanford, which shows that the 'experimenter effect' or 'confirmation bias', measurably influences supposedly 'impartial' experiments. Maybe the vector for this effect is QM spin... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 13:57:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AKur6r026105; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:56:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AKuphc026095; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:56:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:56:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42812008.3080101 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:56:40 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT References: <20050510170156.IRWX2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <4280FDD1.7070209@pobox.com> <005601c55595$b9fe8380$a969c218@hanksblackbox> <42811696.6030005@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <42811696.6030005 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Hank Scudder wrote: > >> Stephen, >> I respectfully disagree with your analysis. The rotation of the >> ball comes from friction with the track as the ball is attracted by >> the magnet. No friction, the ball would just slide along the track. >> The magnet doesn't have anything to do with the angular momentum >> directly. > > > Right. That's what I was trying to say, I think. > > Send the ball out into space (in orbit), and slide the ramp to the > right while pressing it against the ball, and the ball will spin > without any magnet or gravity present. Oh, well, this is all about picking nits so I might as well pick another one here. (This is the only way to get an accurate picture of what's going on in a complicated mechanics problem, actually: pick nits until you run out of them.) The _rotation_ of the ball is due entirely to the friction of the ramp on the ball and the magnet does not directly affect it. But the angular momentum of the ball depends on what origin you choose to measure it at, and in general it is affected by the magnet. Remember, angular momentum of a point mass is defined as L = r x P (unless I have it backwards) where "r" is the position vector of a point mass, P is its linear momentum (a vector), and "x" is the vector cross product. Torque is defined as N = r x F (unless I have it backwards) where "r" and "x" are as above, and "F" is force (a vector). If r is not parallel to F, then the torque is nonzero, and the rate of change of the angular momentum is also nonzero, since dL/dt = N. The angular momentum of a rigid body is the integral over its volume of the angular momenta of all its infinitesimal pieces, viewing them as point masses. This turns out to be the _sum_ of the angular momentum of its rotation (measured in the object's center of mass coordinates) and the angular momentum of the object's center of mass due to its linear motion. This doesn't tend to be highly intuitive. Now, if we put the origin at "Ball Finish" in http://physicsinsights.net/images/Plausible-field.png then a quick glance shows that, when the ball is on the ramp, the force exerted on it by the magnet is not parallel to its position vector, which lies on a line from "Ball Finish" to wherever the ball happens to be. So, the torque exerted on the ball by the magnet is nonzero while the ball is going up the ramp, if we measure it about the point "Ball Finish". Similarly, the torque exerted on the magnet by the ball is nonzero while the ball is climbing the ramp. However, once the ball starts to fall vertically down from the hole -- and from the magnet -- the forces acting on the ball lie along a vertical line, and the ball's position vector also lies along that vertical line, and so neither the magnetic field nor the gravitational field has any further effect on the ball's angular momentum -- once again, as measured at the point "Ball Finish". Something to keep in mind is that conservation of linear momentum, which is a very familiar law, is an _assumption_ in Newtonian mechanics. However, conservation of angular momentum, though less familiar, is a _theorem_ -- it follows directly from conservation of linear momentum. >> Hank >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:30 PM >> Subject: Re: SMOT >> >> >>> >>> >>> Terry Blanton wrote: >>> >>>>> From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >>>>> >>>>> If you don't understand this then you need to brush up on your >>>>> physics. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Let's talk about the physics. A magnetic gradient pulls the ball >>>> up a ramp. Suddenly there's a hole in the ramp and gravity pulls >>>> the ball through the hole. The ball is still spinning when it >>>> falls. What imparted the angular momentum? >>>> >>> Here's a quick picture showing some of the most important forces (nb >>> -- those black force arrows on the ramp have somewhat arbitrary >>> directions): >>> >>> http://physicsinsights.net/images/ball-rolling-up-ramp.png >>> >>> From the point of view of the ball, as it accelerated up the ramp, >>> the ramp itself applied a tangential force to the surface of the >>> ball which caused it to spin; thence came the angular momentum (in >>> the frame of reference of the ball). >>> >>> Angular momentum must be measured at a particular point in space. >>> It only makes sense to talk about it with regard to a particular >>> origin. In particular, it's conserved, but that statement only >>> makes sense in a situation where you've chosen one point about which >>> to measure the total value of L. So let's say we measure it at the >>> point the ball lands on when it hits the ground after falling >>> through the hole. From that POV, as the ball moves up the ramp, the >>> ball gains angular momentum both because of its spin and because of >>> the motion of its center of mass along a line which doesn't pass >>> through the point we have (arbitrarily) chosen as the center of our >>> coordinate system. At the same time, the RAMP gains angular >>> momentum which is equal and opposite to the angular momentum of the >>> spin of the ball, as a result of the force the BALL exerts on the >>> ramp as it spins up. Finally, the MAGNET gains angular momentum >>> which is equal and opposite to the angular momentum due to the >>> motion of the ball's center of mass along a line which doesn't pass >>> through the origin. >>> >>> Now, the ramp is not accelerating in these coordinates, despite the >>> force the ball exerts on it. So, the ramp is also being acted on by >>> other forces (it's attached to the apparatus which is attached to >>> the floor which is attached to the ground) and the L gained by the >>> ramp is actually passed to the environment. Similarly, the magnet >>> doesn't accelerate; its L value is also passed to the environment. >>> But what is "the environment"? It's the Earth itself, which is so >>> massive that we don't normally notice tiny changes in its angular >>> momentum due to things like balls rolling up ramps. In other words, >>> the Earth itself provides an essentially infinite source/sink for L, >>> which is one reason why it's not always apparent that L is really >>> conserved in real-world situations. >>> >>> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 14:03:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4AL326r029599; Tue, 10 May 2005 14:03:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4AL2ueZ029514; Tue, 10 May 2005 14:02:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:02:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dodb$nhpe0q mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,172,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="790411290:sNHT27702134" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:02:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lately there has been considerable debate about Dr. Mills hydrinos here in vortex. I think I'll post my hydrino question here before I consider pestering the Hydrino discussion group. Things have been kinda dull over there lately. It has been theorized that the electron circling the hydrino's proton nucleus might eventually transform the nucleus into a neutron if there have been a sufficient number of fractional collapses of the orbital shell. I believe this may occur somewhere around 127 fractional collapses where the electron's velocity would eventually approach the speed of light. Curiously, things seem to get a little fuzzy in regards to what CQM predicts is the fate of hydrinos that manage to attain this highly refined fractional ground state. Even Mills, I gather, has not cared to speculate too deeply on this possibility in his CQM publications, at least not publicly. Does anyone know how much TOTAL ENERGY is theorized to be released by the collapsing orbital shell of the electron belonging to a hydrino as it approaches the ultimate speed of light through approximately 127 fractional transitions? Does it approach the amount of energy that might be released by, say, a neutron decaying back into a proton, electron, and EM radiation? The reason I ask this is I have often wondered WHERE the source of all this released hydrino energy comes from. Yes, yes, I know it's supposed to come from the collapsing state of the electron's orbital shell as it finds a new "ground" state. But here's my point: A free standing neutron has a half life of approximately 11 minutes, give or take a minute. As I understand it the neutron eventually "decays" back into a proton by releasing an electron along with some EM radiation. That would mean WE'RE RIGHT BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE! That would mean the entire amount of energy extracted from a hydrogen atom could be repeated infinitely as a typical hydrogen atom is transformed into hydrino, and then into neutron, and then finally as it decays back into a proton - electron pair (plus some EM radiation) to make another hydrogen atom. There is something disturbingly circuitous about the endless production of energy and/or the transformation of matter. I realize this transformation may to some extent resemble a typical Feynman chart where subatomic particles are simply transformed from one particle classification into another - but we're talking about the behavior of ATOMS here, not the transcendent nature sub-atomic particles. This transformational process reminds me of the Escher's wood block prints, specifically his optical illusion carvings where we witness a figure eternally walking UP on a closed looped stairway, or a perpetual waterfall that self-feeds its own water source. The only way I have been able to rationalize this eternal circuitous extraction of energy would be if our universe is embedded within a greater multi-dimensional universe where we are constantly extracting energy from a greater reservoir elsewhere. (And on that point, I'm not sure I'd like to be on the other end of the stick!) I may be wrong on this point, but I suspect Dr. Mills CQM theories would not subscribe to this kind of a super-universe construct as the explanation as to where all this seemingly limitless energy would come from. Mr. Carrell. Can you or anyone else shed any light on this conundrum? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 14:53:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ALql6r000793; Tue, 10 May 2005 14:52:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ALqiJC000775; Tue, 10 May 2005 14:52:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:52:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:52:29 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <41dodb$nhpe0q mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <41dodb$nhpe0q mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4ALqV6r000706 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to 's message of Tue, 10 May 2005 17:02:40 -0400: Hi Steven, [snip] >It has been theorized that the electron circling the hydrino's proton nucleus might eventually transform the nucleus into a neutron if there have been a sufficient number of fractional collapses of the orbital shell. I This doesn't happen. > believe this may occur somewhere around 127 fractional collapses where the electron's velocity would eventually approach the speed of light. That number is 137 BTW, not 127. 137 is approximately the inverse of the fine structure constant. >Curiously, things seem to get a little fuzzy in regards to what CQM predicts is the fate of hydrinos that manage to attain this highly refined fractional ground state. Even Mills, I gather, has not cared to speculate too deeply on this possibility in his CQM publications, at least not publicly. More or less true, this is rarely covered in great depth. Primarily because the situation doesn't arise in reality IMO. > >Does anyone know how much TOTAL ENERGY is theorized to be released by the collapsing orbital shell of the electron belonging to a hydrino as it approaches the ultimate speed of light through approximately 127 fractional transitions? Does it approach the amount of energy that might be released by, say, a neutron decaying back into a proton, electron, and EM radiation? According to Mills formulae, it is an amount of energy exactly equal to half an electron mass, i.e. 255499 eV. > >The reason I ask this is I have often wondered WHERE the source of all this released hydrino energy comes from. Yes, yes, I know it's supposed to come from the collapsing state of the electron's orbital shell as it finds a new "ground" state. I believe Mills has let it be known that he more or less believes that it comes from the mass of the proton. Personally, I think it comes partly from the mass of the proton, and partly from the mass of the electron, with the most likely distribution being half-and-half (see also my web page at http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ). > >But here's my point: A free standing neutron has a half life of approximately 11 minutes, give or take a minute. As I understand it the neutron eventually "decays" back into a proton by releasing an electron along with some EM radiation. That would mean WE'RE RIGHT BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE! Which is precisely why the original premise (that an ultimately shrunken hydrino collapses to a neutron) must be wrong. >That would mean the entire amount of energy extracted from a hydrogen atom could be repeated infinitely as a typical hydrogen atom is transformed into hydrino, and then into neutron, and then finally as it decays back into a proton - electron pair (plus some EM radiation) to make another hydrogen atom. Indeed it would, if the original premise were true. > >There is something disturbingly circuitous about the endless production of energy and/or the transformation of matter. Such "disturbances" are usually a strong sign that the assumptions are wrong. ;) [snip] >I may be wrong on this point, but I suspect Dr. Mills CQM theories would not subscribe to this kind of a super-universe construct as the explanation as to where all this seemingly limitless energy would come from. Indeed, but that's because it doesn't exist to start with. The total mass of a:- neutron = 939.5656 MeV ground state hydrogen atom = 938.7835 MeV maximally shrunken hydrino = 938.5280 MeV As you can see, it's even harder for a hydrino to turn into a neutron than it is for a hydrogen atom to turn into a neutron. Now getting back to the final fate of hydrinos. In all likelihood, they fuse with other nuclei, before they reach the final ground state, which is why the question essentially doesn't arise in reality. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 16:26:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ANQX6r020134; Tue, 10 May 2005 16:26:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ANQUVd020116; Tue, 10 May 2005 16:26:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:26:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills_secret_ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:26:25 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <00a001c55596$9fca2e50$9c7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <00a001c55596$9fca2e50$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4ANQP6r020075 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 10 May 2005 15:21:59 -0400: Hi Mike, [snip] The ionization energy of K+++ (to K++++) is 60.91 eV (not a multiple of 27.2) However the ionization energy of K++++ -> K+++++ is 82.5 eV (about .9 eV > 81.6 eV) The sum of the ionization energies of K through K++ resulting in K+++ is 81.686 eV. The energy hole required for H -> H[n=1/4] is 81.6 eV. >Robin wrote: >> It is K, not K+++ that is the catalyst. K+++ is the end product >> after the catalytic action (which then eventually returns to K by >> repeatedly capturing free electrons). >> >--------------------- >Potassium catalysis is possible for 2K+ *and* for K+++. K+ is produced in >the thermal reactor by evaporation and dissociation of KNO3 and K+++ results >from the dissociationof K2CO3. I doubt very strongly that thermal dissociation of K2CO3 would yield K+++ directly. More likely is that it directly yields K+, which then captures a free electron from the plasma, resulting in a K metal atom. This then in turn acts as a Mills catalyst, where three electrons are stripped in the reaction: H + K -> H[n=1/4] + K+++ + 3e- + 122.4 eV resulting in the presence of K+++ in the plasma where it may be spectroscopically detected. (a further 81.6 eV is released when the K+++ captures free electrons). >In the reactor, encounters of K+++ and H >yield H(1/4), This reaction doesn't work, because the ionization energy of K+++ is wrong. See above. >but K+++ can capture electrons to become K+ and two of those >with H yield H(1/2). Agreed. >See "A Comprehensive Study of Spectra of the Bound-Free Hyperfine Levels of >Novel Hydride Ion H-(1/2), Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Air", page 19, second >paragraph from the bottom. This is the paragraph is question, none of which suggests that K+++ is a catalyst: "2K+ to K + K2+ each provides a reaction with a net enthalpy equal to the potential energy of atomic hydrogen. In addition, the first, second, and third ionization energies of potassium are 4.34066 eV , 31.63 eV , and 45.806 eV , respectively. The triple ionization (t = 3) reaction of K to K3+, then, has a net enthalpy of reaction of 81.7766 eV , which is equivalent to 3× 27.2 eV . Line emission from a potassium rtplasma corresponding to K3+ was observed at 65 - 67 nm, 74 - 76 nm, and 89.2 nm. K2+ was observed at 51 nm and 55 nm, and K+ was observed at 62 nm. K was observed at 3447 Ĺ, 4965 Ĺ, and 5084 Ĺ. The potassium lines were confirmed by NIST tables and standard discharges of potassium [41, 81]. The characteristic emission from K3+ and K2+ confirmed the resonant nonradiative energy transfer of 3× 27.2 eV from atomic hydrogen to atomic potassium and the transfer of 27.2 eV from atomic hydrogen to 2K+ , respectively." >See also Conrad's study of the thermal reactor in >"Emission in the deep vacuum ultraviolet from a plasma formed by >incansescently heating hydrogen gas with trace amounts of potassium >carbonate", in Plasma Sources Science and Technology. He did not do the same >spectroscopic studeis that BLP did. Perhaps you could quote the relevant passage from this document, as I am unwilling to fork out for it (and you apparently already have)? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 17:16:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4B0GJ6r011061; Tue, 10 May 2005 17:16:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4B0GDtB011026; Tue, 10 May 2005 17:16:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:16:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills_secret_ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:16:02 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <842t71dpo9t417mf8e40h0cdgpn1q548v0@4ax.com> <00a501c55598$9cfd8ee0$9c7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <00a501c55598$9cfd8ee0$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4B0G36r010895 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 10 May 2005 15:43:39 -0400: Hi, [snip] >> Agreed. However this has the disadvantage that O17 may be >> produced, necessitating shielding the reactor because of the >> likely gammas. > >Why should O17 be produced? so far we are dealing with 'hyperchemistry', not >nuclear reactions. But it si possible that when the presently-obvious BLP >reactions are scaled up, other reactions of lower probability will be seen. >It's new territory. When a hydrino gets very small, sooner or later it will undergo a fusion reaction with another nucleus. Because of the extreme sensitivity of fusion tunneling time to distance, the time required for tunneling to take place can shrink drastically during a single shrinkage event. This may well mean that the hydrino fuses with the catalyst atom responsible for the current shrinkage event (if the hydrino was already very small before the event). If that catalyst was O++, then the fusion reaction could be either of: O16 + Hy -> F17 + e- or O16 + Hy -> O17 (electron capture of the shrunken hydrino electron). In either case, gamma rays are likely to ensue, so that use of this reaction should be limited to well shielded reactors. A better catalyst for reactors where little or no shielding would be required, would be Li, possibly combined with He. Fusion reactions with Li will most likely produce a mixture of He4 and He3. [snip] >> However containment them becomes more problematic - lessons to be >> learned from hot fusion perhaps? > >Wrong track. Spectroscopy of the Hydrogen alpha line already indicates H at >100,000 C or so, but it is attentuated. If you get the reaction going enough >to produce kilowatts of power, you drain the heat off as fast as possible to >do useful work. This is the path currently being followed, which doesn't *appear* to be leading to a commercial device. I respectfully suggest that a somewhat higher density and higher operating temperature may yield better power density, because the catalyst ion density will be greater at higher temperatures. >> >> >The heat of evaporation of the water would come fromz the environment. >> >> This is minuscule compared to the energy release from the >> reaction, hence can be ignored. >> The minimum energy release from a molecule of water (containing >> two hydrogen atoms) would be 2*40.8 = 81.6 eV. The energy required >> to evaporate a molecule of water ~= 0.47 eV, or only 1 part in 174 >> of the minimal energy release. A further 2.96 eV is required to >> split the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen, still trivial >> compared to the minimal energy release. > >Which is very encouraging, except thatere is still no [visible] efficient >way to get that energy into useful form except a lossy thermal cycle. The obvious way, is direct use of water as fuel, however the previous experiment carried out using this approach shows that the density of shrinkage reactions is still too low, implying insufficient O++ present. That in turn implies that higher operating temperatures are required. I would suggest a gas cooling system rather than a water bath, or a much larger reactor that has larger volume to surface area ratio, ensuring that less contact with the walls occurs to reduce the temperature of the plasma before it can catalyze further reactions. > >All of which is an outline of why there has not been a rush of product out >the door of BLP to entertain the peanut gallery. Well this peanut is being entertained anyway. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 20:02:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4B31bH2009595; Tue, 10 May 2005 20:01:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4B31YOA009563; Tue, 10 May 2005 20:01:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:01:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c555d5$b93042f0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: OT: Stock market churning Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:00:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIs it my imagination or is there a churning going on with Wall = Street. The seesaw is too balanced as if a giant computer program has = control of the game. It fluctuates at near 150 back and forth weekly. Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K there is NO = bottom. Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below 11K before the = summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K. Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction looming after the = 2nd quarter's reports are in. In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their California homes = for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near Kerrville into a bigger brand new = home for 250K and banking the difference as retirement . A mil and 3/4 = will give you a fairly good retirement posture. While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the reality is the = nation simply cannot afford a drop in the Dow and expect to sell the = Social Security reform package that permits investments in the equities = market. Harvard has money in the stock market.... could we afford to lose = Harvard and Yale? Between these two , they supply the Government with = the brainpower and the Presidents of our nation. eeerrr, well by way = of Texas. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Is it my imagination or is there a churning going on with Wall = Street. The=20 seesaw is too balanced as if  a giant computer program has control = of the=20 game. It fluctuates at near 150 back and forth weekly.
 
Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K there is NO=20 bottom.
 
Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below 11K = before the=20 summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K.
 
Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction looming after = the 2nd=20 quarter's reports are in.
In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their = California=20 homes for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near Kerrville into  a=20 bigger brand new home for 250K and banking the difference as=20 retirement . A mil and 3/4 will give you a fairly good retirement = posture.
 
While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the reality is the = nation=20 simply cannot afford a drop in the Dow and expect to sell the Social = Security=20 reform package that permits investments in the equities market.
 Harvard has money in the stock market.... could we afford to = lose=20 Harvard and Yale? Between these two , they supply the Government with = the=20 brainpower and  the Presidents of our nation.   eeerrr, = well by=20 way of Texas.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410-- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000301c555d5$a1c11db0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 10 22:11:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4B5AuH2007790; Tue, 10 May 2005 22:10:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4B5Asf5007768; Tue, 10 May 2005 22:10:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:10:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050511061042.00683dfc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 06:10:42 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: 1997 - 2005 the missing SMOT years Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:47 pm 04-05-05 -0400, Grimer wrote: >>Public wrote: >> >>>> Have you seen this?: >>>> >>>> http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html >>> >>> >>> Wow. Notice that the magnets are moving at 90d angles from the motion >>> of the ball in each cycle, in the movie clip. Reminds me of the SMOT. >>> >>> Of course, if it really is a perpetual motion machine, then this'll be >>> the biggest thing since Relativity, >> >> It'll be the biggest thing since Principia Mathematica. It's much >> bigger than relativity. >> >> PM of the first kind using static magnets goes down to the bedrock of >> all physics for the last couple centuries and dynamites it. >> > I have a question. > Supposing (as I believe) that magnetic lines of force are not > perfectly orthogonal to electric, would that allow for the type > of harnessing of the magnetic, what shall I call it, wind, perhaps? > After all, to a quasi modo the magnetic flux does look extraordinarily > like a violent flow of stuff from a source to a sink at the bottom > of a deep ocean. The idea of tapping such a manifest cornucopia > of energy is no sillier than trying to fly like a bird or emulate > the cow that jumped over the moon. 8-) > Harnessing such a "wind" would not of course constitute perpetual > motion anymore than harnessing an atmospheric wind with a conventional > windmill entails perpetual motion. > One would merely be tapping a source of, as yet, untapped energy. > Cheers > Frank Grimer. =================================================================== So let's think more deeply about orthogonality. In school we learn the right hand rule and Flemings left hand rule but we never ask why they aren't the other way around. And if we did we would be told to shut up - or even sent to the head and give six strokes of the whack for insolence. In general people never see the irrationality. They never see that something must be missing. If we dig and dig and dig in an attempt to understand this asymmetry we will end up with parity violation, CP violation and the fact that there is more matter than anti-matter in the universe. Obviously, the equations that guided the formation of the universe must have violated the symmetry between matter and anti-matter at some stage. Personally, I see the idea the idea of the Universe being symmetrical as quite ridiculous. White is not symmetrical with black. Life is not symmetrical with death. Good is not symmetrical with evil. God is not symmetrical with the devil though I'm sure Satan would like to think so. And woman is not symmetrical with man though I'm sure that women..... but I'd better stop there in the event (however unlikely) that there are some lady Vortexians. If there are any, I think they should "come out". ;-) Now I'm not interested in the roots of asymmetry but merely its implications in relation to the orthogonality of electric current and magnetic field lines. In my view the problem is at root psychological and emotional. If all our lives we have seen a chess board as composed of black squares on a white ground it might not be too difficult for us to invert our view and see it as white squares on a black ground. It would be considerably more difficult to invert the shades of a negative photo which is why, for example, in 1898 the Italian photographer, Secondo Pia, got such a shock when he made the first photograph of the Shroud of Turin. Manipulation of Java applet at the following web page.... ----------------------------------------------------- http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/lenzlaw/ ----------------------------------------------------- ....is helpful in opening one's eyes to the missing interaction between M and E. Use your mouse to click and drag the magnet toward and away from the conducting ring. There is nothing whatever in the symmetrical geometry of the field lines to show whether the current will flow in a clockwise or widdershins direction. It is as though the ring is a huge magnifier which brings out a hidden aspect of the field lines, their chirality. But why isn't this represented at the macroscale? Why aren't magnetic field lines shown as helixes. Why isn't the irrationality of orthogonality recognised. Even the ancient Greeks recognised with the discovery of root two that it was impossible to construct an equal arm right angled triangle with real objects. I suppose the most poetic expression of the asymmetry which is hidden under apparent symmetry is that given by G K Chersterton in ORTHODOXY. ================================================================= The real trouble with this world of ours is not that it is an unreasonable world, nor even that it is a reasonable one. The commonest kind of trouble is that it is nearly reasonable, but not quite. Life is not an illogicality; yet it is a trap for logicians. It looks just a little more mathematical and regular than it is; its exactitude is obvious, but its inexactitude is hidden; its wildness lies in wait. I give one coarse instance of what I mean. Suppose some mathematical creature from the moon were to reckon up the human body; he would at once see that the essential thing about it was that it was duplicate. A man is two men, he on the right exactly resembling him on the left. Having noted that there was an arm on the right and one on the left, a leg on the right and one on the left, he might go further and still find on each side the same number of fingers, the same number of toes, twin eyes, twin ears, twin nostrils, and even twin lobes of the brain. At last he would take it as a law; and then, where he found a heart on one side, would deduce that there was another heart on the other. And just then, where he most felt he was right, he would be wrong. ================================================================= Now the implication of the magnetic lines of force not being orthogonal to the current carrying wire is that they form a tightly wind spiral which starts and finished at a charged particle. In short the charge particle is acting as a turbine taking in Chi-aether [chi being the Greek equivalent of X, the unknown ;-) ]at its south magnetic pole, say, and pumping it out at its north magnetic pole. Because of the obvious reciprocal relationship between E and M as manifest by the function of inductors and capacitors in electrical circuits for example, I have never been able to understand why if a spiral electric flux in a coil produces a linear magnetic flux along the axis of that coil, a magnetic flux in a high permeability magnetic coil doesn't produce a electric flux along the axis of that magnetic coil. I have no idea how easy it is to produce a magnetic coil - or indeed if it is practical at all - but its such an obvious thing to do that I imagine people must have done it and found nothing interesting. I now realise that I am possible looking at things the wrong way. The electric helical flux produces an effect one hierarchy down, i.e. at the magnetic flux level. Therefore one might expect a magnetic flux to also produce an effect one stage down. But what is one stage down? Perhaps it is gravity. So although SMOT is experimentally as vacuous as a man trying to fly by flapping his arms, the intuition underlying it is perfectly reasonable. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 00:08:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4B77xH2022601; Wed, 11 May 2005 00:08:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4B77vaM022575; Wed, 11 May 2005 00:07:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:07:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001001c55494$852366f0$40037841 xptower> References: <20050429214259.PAAC2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <001001c55494$852366f0$40037841 xptower> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:07:37 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Watch Me Try to Get Home (Train Hell's a comin' to "Paradise") Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, they're our peanuts - but no, I hadn't realized we were so outclassed. Texas was where they were going to build that Superconducting Supercollider too. I should have guessed. - R. >RICK, Thats peanuts, Houston spent a Bil on a 9 mile toy train. BushTexas and BushFlorida have it going. Texas has a 180 Bil tollway starting .. see www.corridorwatch.org to learn how the smart money does it. >Cintra of Spain won the " bid" to construct the first section. Gov. Perry signed the " contract" but cant reveal the terms saying it is confidential. The " deal" was put together back when Bush was the GUV. >Bro Bush in Florida playing copycat. >Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 05:34:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BCXxH2028536; Wed, 11 May 2005 05:33:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BCXvd6028518; Wed, 11 May 2005 05:33:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 05:33:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Watch Me Try to Get Home (Train Hell's a comin' to "Paradise") Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 8:33:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050511123351.JNQE2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Rick Monteverde > Well, they're our peanuts - but no, I hadn't realized we were so outclassed. Texas was where they were going to build that Superconducting Supercollider too. I should have guessed. LOL! The SSC engineering firm also included our parent company. We're also involved in the Big Dig. Haven't had much good press lately. :-) http://www.pbworld.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 05:52:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BCpoH2010821; Wed, 11 May 2005 05:51:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BCpX9i010700; Wed, 11 May 2005 05:51:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 05:51:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001201c55628$24301a60$b2017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: 1997-2005 the missing SMOT years Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:51:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C555FE.3ACF1070" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C555FE.3ACF1070 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C555FE.3AD09710" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C555FE.3AD09710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote >Now the implication of the magnetic lines of force not=20 being orthogonal to the current carrying wire is that=20 they form a tightly wind spiral which starts and finished=20 at a charged particle. In short the charge particle is=20 acting as a turbine taking in Chi-aether [chi being the=20 Greek equivalent of X, the unknown ;-) ]at its south=20 magnetic pole, say, and pumping it out at its north=20 magnetic pole. Because of the obvious reciprocal relationship between E=20 and M as manifest by the function of inductors and capacitors=20 in electrical circuits for example, I have never been able=20 to understand why if a spiral electric flux in a coil=20 produces a linear magnetic flux along the axis of that coil,=20 a magnetic flux in a high permeability magnetic coil doesn't=20 produce a electric flux along the axis of that magnetic coil. I have no idea how easy it is to produce a magnetic coil -=20 or indeed if it is practical at all - but its such an obvious=20 thing to do that I imagine people must have done it and found=20 nothing interesting. I now realise that I am possible looking at things the wrong=20 way. The electric helical flux produces an effect one hierarchy=20 down, i.e. at the magnetic flux level. Therefore one might=20 expect a magnetic flux to also produce an effect one stage down. But what is one stage down?=20 Perhaps it is gravity.=20 So although SMOT is experimentally as vacuous as a man trying=20 to fly by flapping his arms, the intuition underlying it is=20 >perfectly reasonable. Frank, the spiral ring helix observed in a water vortex is, as = Schauberger stated, a " reverse flow". Centrifugal and centripetal = forces within the confines of the parabolic cone of the liquid spiral = scream to us that the inner face " must" be smooth. It is NOT, it is = ringed with spirals. Magnetic lines of force acting on metals shavings = may not show the opposing force like a water vortex simply because = they ARE one stage down, Smot may have given us a glimpse. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C555FE.3AD09710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer wrote
 
>Now the implication of the magnetic lines of force not =
being=20 orthogonal to the current carrying wire is that
they form a tightly = wind=20 spiral which starts and finished
at a charged particle. In short the = charge=20 particle is
acting as a turbine taking in Chi-aether [chi being the=20
Greek equivalent of X, the unknown ;-) ]at its south
magnetic = pole, say,=20 and pumping it out at its north
magnetic pole.

Because of the = obvious=20 reciprocal relationship between E
and M as manifest by the function = of=20 inductors and capacitors
in electrical circuits for example, I have = never=20 been able
to understand why if a spiral electric flux in a coil =
produces=20 a linear magnetic flux along the axis of that coil,
a magnetic flux = in a=20 high permeability magnetic coil doesn't
produce a electric flux = along the=20 axis of that magnetic coil.

I have no idea how easy it is to = produce a=20 magnetic coil -
or indeed if it is practical at all - but its such = an=20 obvious
thing to do that I imagine people must have done it and = found=20
nothing interesting.

I now realise that I am possible looking = at=20 things the wrong
way. The electric helical flux produces an effect = one=20 hierarchy
down, i.e. at the magnetic flux level. Therefore one might =
expect a magnetic flux to also produce an effect one stage = down.

But=20 what is one stage down?

Perhaps it is gravity.

So = although SMOT=20 is experimentally as vacuous as a man trying
to fly by flapping his = arms,=20 the intuition underlying it is
>perfectly reasonable.

Frank, the spiral ring helix observed in a water vortex is, as=20 Schauberger stated, a " reverse flow". Centrifugal and centripetal = forces within=20 the confines of the parabolic cone of the liquid spiral scream to us = that the=20 inner face " must" be smooth. It is NOT, it is ringed with = spirals.=20 Magnetic lines of force acting on metals shavings may not show the = opposing=20 force like  a water vortex  simply because they ARE one = stage=20 down,

 Smot may have given us a glimpse.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C555FE.3AD09710-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C555FE.3ACF1070 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c55628$238e3510$b2017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C555FE.3ACF1070-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 07:51:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BEp1H2026778; Wed, 11 May 2005 07:51:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BEouE8026697; Wed, 11 May 2005 07:50:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:50:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050511155048.006c20ec pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:50:48 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: 1997-2005 the missing SMOT years Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:51 am 11-05-05 -0500, Richard wrote: > Grimer wrote > >> Now the implication of the magnetic lines of force not >> being orthogonal to the current carrying wire is that >> they form a tightly wind spiral which starts and finished >> at a charged particle. In short the charge particle is >> acting as a turbine taking in Chi-aether [chi being the >> Greek equivalent of X, the unknown ;-) ]at its south >> magnetic pole, say, and pumping it out at its north >> magnetic pole. > >> Because of the obvious reciprocal relationship between E >> and M as manifest by the function of inductors and capacitors >> in electrical circuits for example, I have never been able >> to understand why if a spiral electric flux in a coil >> produces a linear magnetic flux along the axis of that coil, >> a magnetic flux in a high permeability magnetic coil doesn't >> produce a electric flux along the axis of that magnetic coil. > >> I have no idea how easy it is to produce a magnetic coil - >> or indeed if it is practical at all - but its such an obvious >> thing to do that I imagine people must have done it and found >> nothing interesting. >> I now realise that I am possible looking at things the wrong >> way. The electric helical flux produces an effect one hierarchy >> down, i.e. at the magnetic flux level. Therefore one might >expect a magnetic flux to also produce an effect one stage down. >> But what is one stage down? >> Perhaps it is gravity. >> So although SMOT is experimentally as vacuous as a man trying >> to fly by flapping his arms, the intuition underlying it is >> perfectly reasonable. >> Frank > The spiral ring helix observed in a water vortex is, > as Schauberger stated, a " reverse flow". Centrifugal and > centripetal forces within the confines of the parabolic cone > of the liquid spiral scream to us that the inner face " must" > be smooth. It is NOT, it is ringed with spirals. Magnetic > lines of force acting on metals shavings may not show the > opposing force like a water vortex simply because they > ARE one stage down, > Smot may have given us a glimpse. > Richard If nothing else SMOT has made us think about the possibilities. As the myth of Icarus shows, man has dreamt of flying like the birds from ancient times but it was only a century ago that man achieved his dream. Fifty years later he had jumped over the moon. I feel sure that it will not take 50 more years for him to puzzle out the interaction between magnetism and gravity. And since you obviously have hands on experience of hydrodynamics in general and vortices in particular you are probably the Vortexian in the prime position to recognise the true nature of the magnetic field. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 08:02:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BF0XHq001338; Wed, 11 May 2005 08:02:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BEcR3o014918; Wed, 11 May 2005 07:38:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:38:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511101219.03261aa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:13:05 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Another search engine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This has a good index of papers at LENR-CANR.org: http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/ - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 08:19:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BFJYH2016119; Wed, 11 May 2005 08:19:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BFFr1X012743; Wed, 11 May 2005 08:15:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:15:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41do9c$8cm0vc mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,96,1115006400"; d="scan'147,217,208"; a="281740268:sNHT36729550" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: Stock market churning Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:35:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=____1115822152650_AE56Pn26j'" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1115822152650_AE56Pn26j' Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: "RC Macaulay" > Is it my imagination or is there a churning going on with > Wall Street. The seesaw is too balanced as if a giant > computer program has control of the game. It fluctuates > at near 150 back and forth weekly. > > Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K > there is NO bottom. > > Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below > 11K before the summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K. > > Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction > looming after the 2nd quarter's reports are in. > In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their > California homes for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near > Kerrville into a bigger brand new home for 250K and > banking the difference as retirement . A mil and 3/4 > will give you a fairly good retirement posture. > > While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the > reality is the nation simply cannot afford a drop in > the Dow and expect to sell the Social Security > reform package that permits investments in the > equities market. > Harvard has money in the stock market.... could > we afford to lose Harvard and Yale? Between these two, > they supply the Government with the brainpower and > the Presidents of our nation. eeerrr, well by way > of Texas. > > Richard It's been my experience that no matter how much technical or classical analysis one puts into predicting market trends that one hopes to take advantage of, this lady will damn well do what she pleases and in her own time. Welcome to chaos theory! It's best just to buy her roses regularly, and an occasional outing to a nice restaurant doesn't hurt either. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com ------=____1115822152650_AE56Pn26j' Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIs it my imagination or is there a churning going on with Wall = Street. The seesaw is too balanced as if a giant computer program has = control of the game. It fluctuates at near 150 back and forth weekly. Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K there is NO = bottom. Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below 11K before the = summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K. Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction looming after the = 2nd quarter's reports are in. In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their California homes = for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near Kerrville into a bigger brand new = home for 250K and banking the difference as retirement . A mil and 3/4 = will give you a fairly good retirement posture. While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the reality is the = nation simply cannot afford a drop in the Dow and expect to sell the = Social Security reform package that permits investments in the equities = market. Harvard has money in the stock market.... could we afford to lose = Harvard and Yale? Between these two , they supply the Government with = the brainpower and the Presidents of our nation. eeerrr, well by way = of Texas. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Is it my imagination or is there a churning going on with Wall = Street. The=20 seesaw is too balanced as if  a giant computer program has control = of the=20 game. It fluctuates at near 150 back and forth weekly.
 
Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K there is NO=20 bottom.
 
Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below 11K = before the=20 summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K.
 
Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction looming after = the 2nd=20 quarter's reports are in.
In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their = California=20 homes for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near Kerrville into  a=20 bigger brand new home for 250K and banking the difference as=20 retirement . A mil and 3/4 will give you a fairly good retirement = posture.
 
While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the reality is the = nation=20 simply cannot afford a drop in the Dow and expect to sell the Social = Security=20 reform package that permits investments in the equities market.
 Harvard has money in the stock market.... could we afford to = lose=20 Harvard and Yale? Between these two , they supply the Government with = the=20 brainpower and  the Presidents of our nation.   eeerrr, = well by=20 way of Texas.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410-- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000301c555d5$a1c11db0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410-- ------=____1115822152650_AE56Pn26j'-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 08:39:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BFd9H2002280; Wed, 11 May 2005 08:39:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BFZrWv031517; Wed, 11 May 2005 08:35:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:35:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41pe54$v29mn4 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,96,1115006400"; d="scan'147,217,208"; a="1042602724:sNHT32269372" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: OT: Stock market churning Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 9:42:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=____1115818967741_c1.FUY_GhF" Resent-Message-ID: <1tZZ2C.A.TsH.YZigCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1115818967741_c1.FUY_GhF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: "RC Macaulay" > Is it my imagination or is there a churning going on with > Wall Street. The seesaw is too balanced as if a giant > computer program has control of the game. It fluctuates > at near 150 back and forth weekly. > > Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K > there is NO bottom. > > Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below > 11K before the summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K. > > Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction > looming after the 2nd quarter's reports are in. > In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their > California homes for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near > Kerrville into a bigger brand new home for 250K and > banking the difference as retirement . A mil and 3/4 will > give you a fairly good retirement posture. > > While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the > reality is the nation simply cannot afford a drop in the > Dow and expect to sell the Social Security reform package > that permits investments in the equities market. > Harvard has money in the stock market.... could we > afford to lose Harvard and Yale? Between these two , > they supply the Government with the brainpower and the > Presidents of our nation. eeerrr, well by way of Texas. > > Richard It's been my experience that no matter how much technical or classical analysis one puts into predicting market trends that one hopes to take advantage of the lady will damn well do what she pleases and in her own time. Welcome to chaos theory! It's best just to buy her roses and an occasional outing to a nice restaurant. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com ------=____1115818967741_c1.FUY_GhF Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIs it my imagination or is there a churning going on with Wall = Street. The seesaw is too balanced as if a giant computer program has = control of the game. It fluctuates at near 150 back and forth weekly. Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K there is NO = bottom. Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below 11K before the = summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K. Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction looming after the = 2nd quarter's reports are in. In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their California homes = for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near Kerrville into a bigger brand new = home for 250K and banking the difference as retirement . A mil and 3/4 = will give you a fairly good retirement posture. While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the reality is the = nation simply cannot afford a drop in the Dow and expect to sell the = Social Security reform package that permits investments in the equities = market. Harvard has money in the stock market.... could we afford to lose = Harvard and Yale? Between these two , they supply the Government with = the brainpower and the Presidents of our nation. eeerrr, well by way = of Texas. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Is it my imagination or is there a churning going on with Wall = Street. The=20 seesaw is too balanced as if  a giant computer program has control = of the=20 game. It fluctuates at near 150 back and forth weekly.
 
Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K there is NO=20 bottom.
 
Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below 11K = before the=20 summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K.
 
Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction looming after = the 2nd=20 quarter's reports are in.
In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their = California=20 homes for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near Kerrville into  a=20 bigger brand new home for 250K and banking the difference as=20 retirement . A mil and 3/4 will give you a fairly good retirement = posture.
 
While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the reality is the = nation=20 simply cannot afford a drop in the Dow and expect to sell the Social = Security=20 reform package that permits investments in the equities market.
 Harvard has money in the stock market.... could we afford to = lose=20 Harvard and Yale? Between these two , they supply the Government with = the=20 brainpower and  the Presidents of our nation.   eeerrr, = well by=20 way of Texas.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C555AB.B8F5C410-- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000301c555d5$a1c11db0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C555AB.B8F5C410-- ------=____1115818967741_c1.FUY_GhF-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 09:30:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BGTeH2012159; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:29:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BGTZHF012102; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:29:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:29:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Magnetic Monopole Patent Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 9:47:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050511134743.NCFW2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Found on another list, patent #5,929,732 "Apparatus and method for amplifying a magnetic beam . . . This beam is a magnetic monopole which emits pulses, levitates, degausses, stops electronics and separates materials." Looks childishly simple to assemble. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 09:31:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BGVEH2013217; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:31:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BGV0G9013118; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:31:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:31:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Magnetic Monopole Patent Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:30:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050511163049.WKQG2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <6QCn2.A.6MD.DNjgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a resend. Looks like the eskimo server is sitting on email again. I apologize if you get it twice; but, it's quite interesting and on topic > Found on another list, patent #5,929,732 > > "Apparatus and method for amplifying a magnetic beam > > . . . This beam is a magnetic monopole which emits pulses, levitates, degausses, stops electronics and separates materials." > > Looks childishly simple to assemble. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 09:37:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BGaZH2017409; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:36:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BGaP8u017316; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:36:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:36:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Magnetic Monopole Patent Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:36:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050511163614.WTOC2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Terry Blanton > > This is a resend. Looks like the eskimo server is sitting on email again. I apologize if you get it twice; but, it's quite interesting and on topic Bloody hell, after waiting almost 3 hours for the original email to post, as soon as I resent it, the bloody server delivered both. Methinks it just does this to piss us off. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 10:23:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BHN0Mi025352; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:23:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BHMwNl025340; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:22:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:22:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=FA/tvhOeUomDfyQRU0/QVM/rpm670HqShnI9xlmzQ4UDBNYekyvhgVgsve0snqx/rRipMkYbmsSKf/wTp7aA4gwCSscHNpFwQY0EvVXbuvyhoV3I4qsiDeTNKX6HsuE6OLdtEweZf3gqh8ANd1hcsrBGfIydtlxKEbvagFkdB60= ; Message-ID: <20050511172251.92779.qmail web41002.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:22:50 -0700 (PDT) From: not used account Subject: Re: Magnetic Monopole Patent To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050511134743.NCFW2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, I guess you found that in the Scam_or_no_scam group. I do have a word version of that patent if anyone would like to download from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Scam_or_No_Scam/files/US929732patent.doc I was going to give it a shot, but never got around to building one..... Joe --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Found on another list, patent #5,929,732 > > "Apparatus and method for amplifying a magnetic beam > > . . . This beam is a magnetic monopole which emits > pulses, levitates, degausses, stops electronics and > separates materials." > > Looks childishly simple to assemble. > > Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 10:30:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BHTtFX031158; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:29:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BHTlKc031093; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:29:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:29:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dob0$re194i mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,96,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="920691858:sNHT15620158" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: Stock market churning Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:40:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6jRKPB.A.xlH.KEkgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "RC Macaulay > Is it my imagination or is there a churning going on with > Wall Street. The seesaw is too balanced as if a giant > computer program has control of the game. It fluctuates > at near 150 back and forth weekly. > > Some opinions have it that IF the Dow drops below 10K > there is NO bottom. > > Some opinions have it the Dow will creep up to just below > 11K before the summer doldrums bring it back to near 10K. > > Some opinions have it there is a horrible correction > looming after the 2nd quarter's reports are in. > In Texas, near retirement age people are selling their > California homes for 2 plus mil, moving to Texas near > Kerrville into a bigger brand new home for 250K and > banking the difference as retirement . A mil and 3/4 > will give you a fairly good retirement posture. > > While I watch the discussions on " outsourcing" the > reality is the nation simply cannot afford a drop in > the Dow and expect to sell the Social Security > reform package that permits investments in the > equities market. > Harvard has money in the stock market.... could > we afford to lose Harvard and Yale? Between these two, > they supply the Government with the brainpower and > the Presidents of our nation. eeerrr, well by way > of Texas. > > Richard It's been my experience that no matter how much technical or classical analysis one puts into predicting market trends that one hopes to take advantage of this lady will damn well do what she pleases and in her own time. Welcome to chaos theory! It's best just to buy her roses regularly, and an occasional outing to a nice restaurant doesn't hurt either. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 10:31:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BHUcFX031641; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:30:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BHUBbX031327; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:30:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:30:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Magnetic Monopole Patent Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:32:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050511163614.WTOC2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, Yes, this patent US5929732 has been around the block a few times. I even think the inventor is someone who can be found on the internet, on some of the more "colorful" lists ( like this one *grin* ). If I'm not mistaken, this is him. boydbushman aol.com As you say, it's easy enough to build. Calling the field a monopole field is not entirely true but for engineering purposes it could have some uses. Why don't you drop him a line and ask after it? I'll bet you'll get a good story at the least. K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:36 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic Monopole Patent > > From: Terry Blanton > > This is a resend. Looks like the eskimo server is sitting on email again. I apologize if you get it twice; but, it's quite interesting and on topic Bloody hell, after waiting almost 3 hours for the original email to post, as soon as I resent it, the bloody server delivered both. Methinks it just does this to piss us off. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 10:50:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BHnYFX014560; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:49:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BHnUro014495; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:49:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:49:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Magnetic Monopole Patent Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:49:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050511174917.BWWL2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: not used account > > Hi Terry, > > I guess you found that in the Scam_or_no_scam group. Zackly. I was viewing your SMOT vids. Hunker mags you got there! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 10:56:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BHtagU018370; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:55:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BHtZnH018341; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:55:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:55:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Magnetic Monopole Patent Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:55:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050511175528.CIFW2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Keith Nagel" > Hi Terry, > > Yes, this patent US5929732 has been around the block a few times. I even think the > inventor is someone who can be found on the internet, on some of the > more "colorful" lists ( like this one *grin* ). If I'm not mistaken, > this is him. > > boydbushman aol.com > > As you say, it's easy enough to build. Calling the field a monopole field > is not entirely true but for engineering purposes it could have some > uses. Why don't you drop him a line and ask after it? I'll bet you'll get a > good story at the least. Why do I get the feeling that I'm being set up here? :-) What struck me was the line in the abstract about stopping electronics. Along time ago, in a galaxy far, far away we were discussing what it is in a flying saucer propulsion system which makes vehicles stall. I'll finish reading the patent first. I question the sanity of anyone who maintains an AOL account (except maybe Dr. Puthoff); although, the latest news is that they plan to start free email service. -Cautious in Atlanta From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 12:16:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BJFpgU016063; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:15:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BJFfcZ015934; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:15:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:15:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c5565b$e5c43160$b8037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: 1997-2005 the missing SMOT years Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:01:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C55631.E572A810" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C55631.E572A810 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C55631.E572A810" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C55631.E572A810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote >If nothing else SMOT has made us think about the=20 possibilities. I have fellowship with a retired airline pilot that has weather eye. I = have mentioned the " strange" vortices shed from the main vortex created = in our glass test tanks.( while the main vortex is spinning) , In = particular, the horizontal vortexes that form and " coast" across the = bottom of the tank. I mentioned that the severe Florida hurricane last = decade had some unexplained damage from winds that may be the result of = a horizontal rolling wind shear similar to a Jelly roll type cake. My = pilot friend said flying 747's for years provided him all the experience = he needed in unexplained wind shears including some during a perfectly = clear sky. There may be a way to visualize such activity in a magnetic = field if it has spiral helix properties. One method may be by the use = of a ultrasonic flow meter of all things. Hmmm , thats an interesting = thought. We use these type meters in our systems shop. Thinking out a = test I will give it a try using a 5 HP TEFC 3 phase electric motor 480 = vac under various load conditions. If something out of the ordinary = shows up, and is reproducible, I will post it. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C55631.E572A810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer wrote

>If nothing else SMOT has made us think about the =
possibilities.

I have fellowship with a retired airline pilot that has weather eye. = I have=20 mentioned the " strange" vortices shed from the main vortex created in = our glass=20 test tanks.(  while the main vortex is spinning) = ,    =20 In particular, the horizontal vortexes that form and " = coast" across the=20 bottom of the tank.  I mentioned that the severe Florida hurricane = last=20 decade had some unexplained damage from winds that may be the result of = a=20 horizontal rolling wind shear similar to a Jelly roll type cake. My = pilot friend=20 said flying 747's for years provided him all the experience he needed in = unexplained wind shears including some during a perfectly clear sky. = There may=20 be a way to visualize such activity in a magnetic field  if it has = spiral=20 helix properties. One method may be by the use of a ultrasonic flow = meter of all=20 things.    Hmmm , thats an interesting thought. We use = these type=20 meters in our systems shop. Thinking out a test I will give it a try = using a 5=20 HP TEFC 3 phase electric motor 480 vac under various load conditions.=20 If something out of the ordinary shows up, and is = reproducible, I will=20 post it.

Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C55631.E572A810-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C55631.E572A810 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c5565b$ce45a2d0$b8037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C55631.E572A810-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 12:23:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BJNQgU021493; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:23:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BJNENC021361; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:23:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:23:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050511192303.00958ce8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:23:03 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Hydrogen car Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >http://durangoherald.com/asp-bin/article_generation.asp?article_type=earth&article_path=/earth/earth050505.htm Pity there isn't an easy way to store the hydrogen whilst the car is parked. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 12:41:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BJeTgU001543; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:40:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BJeJRl001425; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:40:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:40:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:40:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Blast from the Past - quotes from Edward Teller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here are some quotes from a book advocating aboveground nuclear bomb testing. To quote another 1950s idol, "What me worry?" - Jed E. Teller and A. Latter, "Our Nuclear Future. . . Facts Dangers And Opportunities," (Criterion Books, 1958) We have compared radiation from the fallout with radiation from other sources. It is also possible and helpful to compare the fallout danger with different kinds of dangers. For this purpose it is convenient to express all dangers in terms of a reduced life-expectancy. For example, smoking one pack of cigarettes a day seems to cut one's life-expectancy by about 9 years. This is equivalent to 15 minutes per cigarette. That cigarettes are this harmful is, of course, not known with certainty. It is a "best guess," due to Dr. Hardin Jones, based on an analysis of statistical data. A number of Dr. Jones' statistical findings are listed in the following table: Reduced Life Expectancy Being 10 per cent overweight: 1.5 years Smoking one pack of cigarettes a day: 9 years Living in the city instead of the country: 5 years Remaining unmarried: 5 years Having a sedentary job instead of one involving exercise: 5 years Being of the male sex: 3 years Automobile accidents: 1 year One roentgen of radiation: 5 to 10 days The world-wide fallout (lifetime dose at present level): 1 to 2 days [Footnote: The last line of the table is based on our own estimates.] The reader will see that the world-wide fallout is as dangerous as being an ounce overweight or smoking one cigarette every two months. The objection may be raised that the fallout, while not yet dangerous, may become so as more nations develop and test atomic weapons. On this point we can only say that the future is not easy to predict. Some factors, however, justify optimism. We are learning how to regulate the fallout by exploding bombs under proper surroundings. Development of clean bombs will greatly reduce the radioactivity produced. Deep underground tests will eliminate fallout altogether. The activity put into the atmosphere in 1954 was considerably greater than the activity released in any other year. It is highly probable that the activity produced by United States tests will continue to decline. Finally, we may remark that radiation is unspecific in its effects. Chemicals are specific. About the effects of a new ingredient in our diet, in our medicine, or in the air we breathe, we know much less than we know about radiation. If we should worry about our ignorance concerning our chemical surroundings as we worry about the possible effects of radiation, we would be condemned to a conservatism that would stop all change and stifle all progress. Such conservatism would be more immobile than the empire of the Pharaohs. It has been claimed that it is wrong to endanger any human life. Is it not more realistic and in fact more in keeping with the ideals of humanitarianism to strive toward a better life for all mankind? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 13:41:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BKfPdf012219; Wed, 11 May 2005 13:41:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BKfIoI012104; Wed, 11 May 2005 13:41:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:41:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c55669$bdd86f00$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "Public" To: References: <2.2.32.20050511192303.00958ce8 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Hydrogen car Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:40:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <6QLgEB.A.28C.s3mgCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>http://durangoherald.com/asp-bin/article_generation.asp?article_type=earth&article_path=/earth/earth050505.htm I don't think he understands his own invention. Obviously, it's the solar panel that provides the energy. ---"On a commercial level, you're actually combusting hydrogen," Hinton said, so a solar panel would not be necessary. ---During the six-week project, Hinton learned basic electrolysis and a little physics. ---"It's interesting to me that you can use water as fuel," he said. Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 14:29:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BLTVOb015099; Wed, 11 May 2005 14:29:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BLTTaF015077; Wed, 11 May 2005 14:29:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:29:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41djhm$qvr7nv mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,96,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="905813759:sNHT33932016" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:29:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, Thanks for the brief but concise tutorial concerning my questions on the progressive evolution of hydrino states. The graphics at your web site were helpful as well. I gather there has been some speculation that much of the missing mass recently detected in our universe might turn out to be nothing more exotic than hydrinos floating about in the deep recesses of outer space. The implication is that this yet-to-be-detected state of matter does not tend to interact with other hydrinos nor other elements - except in special situations like the BLP catalysts. All this, of course, remains highly debatable for now. I gather that, so far, nobody has figured out a way to directly detect the existence of hydrinos. They are, after all, extremely tiny critters. Setting aside claims of recorded excess heat, the assumption that hydrinos exist appears to be built entirely on unique spectral analysis signatures and special hydride compounds that Mills claims to have manufactured. These hydrides appear to posses unique characteristics that might turn out to have lucrative industrial applications. I understand Mills has been willing to share these specially manufactured compounds with other labs for verification of claims. Too bad there doesn't appear to be an academic interest (perhaps on the graduate level?) in devising experiments that might help prove or disprove in the direct sense the existence of hydrinos. This does bring up many questions pertaining to whether it is possible for hydrinos to combine with other elements and produce unique alloys with unusual characteristics (i.e. the theorized BLP battery). Again, I get the impression that hydrinos don't interact, perhaps because they are situated down in a deep energy well making it difficult to combine covalently or ionicaly with other elements. Obviously, Mill's special hydride compounds are claims to the effect that there may be circumstances where combinations ARE possible. >From my perspective there remain many unanswered questions making it difficult to prove that they really exist. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 14:59:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BLxGOl000586; Wed, 11 May 2005 14:59:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BLxEie000572; Wed, 11 May 2005 14:59:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:59:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Strange GUT Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:59:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050511215907.MKVE2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <_veRVC.A.4I.yAogCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This one is somehow intuitively pleasing: http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/pearsontheory/consciousness.htm "A SUB-QUANTUM level of reality, to be called the "nuether", is described which results from applying the two conservation laws of energy and momentum. A new creation/annihilation mechanism then appears having a self-organising property and leading to a brain-like structure. This could evolve a primary consciousness within the nuether, which could then generate the quantum waves to produce what we call, "sub-atomic particles", together with the force of gravity. A solution to the enigma called, "wave particle duality" has therefore appeared naturally and is entirely free from paradox. In this way the nuether seems able to generate the quantum world: the base on which all matter rests. Physics is also extended to include phenomena, like psychokinesis, presently regarded as "paranormal"." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 15:17:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4BMGwOl009538; Wed, 11 May 2005 15:16:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4BMGu3N009514; Wed, 11 May 2005 15:16:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:16:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4282844D.8020305 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:16:45 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrogen car References: <2.2.32.20050511192303.00958ce8 pop.freeserve.net> <003f01c55669$bdd86f00$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> In-Reply-To: <003f01c55669$bdd86f00$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually this sounds like a pretty impressive item to have built, if indeed it works and was built from scratch. The news story is perfunctory in the extreme: What's it store the hydrogen in? How does it convert the chemical energy of the hydrogen to mechanical energy -- burn it, use a fuel cell, or something else? Does it, indeed, actually work, or is it just a "model"? If it works, how far did it run before being put in a display case, and how far could it run at 3:00 in the afternoon in Boston before it had to stop to build up more hydrogen? There's a lot left out of the story, but if really works and if it was done from scratch, there was a lot of engineering involved in building it. Public wrote: >>> http://durangoherald.com/asp-bin/article_generation.asp?article_type=earth&article_path=/earth/earth050505.htm >>> >> > > I don't think he understands his own invention. Obviously, it's the > solar panel that provides the energy. I suspect he understands that perfectly well, and is just using language sloppily. > ---"On a commercial level, you're actually combusting hydrogen," > Hinton said, so a solar panel would not be necessary. Right -- what he actually built was a hydrogen-powered car, along with an onboard gadget for making the fuel using a solar panel. > ---During the six-week project, Hinton learned basic electrolysis and > a little physics. > > ---"It's interesting to me that you can use water as fuel," he said. I think he just mis-used the word "fuel" here. > Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 11 23:34:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4C6XtXt020844; Wed, 11 May 2005 23:33:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4C6XpHU020813; Wed, 11 May 2005 23:33:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:33:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Blast from the Past - quotes from Edward Teller Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:33:40 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505120833.40543.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Am Mittwoch, 11. Mai 2005 21:40 schrieb Jed Rothwell: A number > of Dr. Jones' statistical findings are listed in the following table: > > Reduced Life Expectancy > Being 10 per cent overweight: 1.5 years > Smoking one pack of cigarettes a day: 9 years > Living in the city instead of the country: 5 years > Remaining unmarried: 5 years > Having a sedentary job instead of one involving exercise: 5 years > Being of the male sex: 3 years > Automobile accidents: 1 year > One roentgen of radiation: 5 to 10 days > The world-wide fallout (lifetime dose at present level): 1 to 2 days Going just by this table Jed, I should have been dead 25 years ago, and Dr. Jones has left out all of the REALLY toxic and stressful stuff that I have done or been exposed to in my life. Go figure... Statistically yours, Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 05:31:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4CCVkXt003614; Thu, 12 May 2005 05:31:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4CCVjhg003601; Thu, 12 May 2005 05:31:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 05:31:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b001c556ee$f2bcecc0$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <200505120833.40543.knuke@sumosound.de> Subject: Re: Blast from the Past - quotes from Edward Teller Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:34:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Knuke, I have a question for you. What ever happened to your experiment with the run away plexiglass cavitating turbine. That was a really interesting article in IE about ten years ago. So interesting that at that time I attempted to approximate in steel what you did in plastic. I'm sure Mike Carrell would chide me for not duplicating your machine exactly, but that's just the way I am. After all, your version melted, and I didn't want that to happen to me. I put about a thousand bucks into it without getting any notable results. (That on top of a few thousand into PAGD.) Not long after that, I spent a hundred dollars on refrigerator magnets a la Greg Watson. I met Gene Mallove twice and spoke to him numerous times on the phone. He was a bit dismayed when I called once to cancel my subscription to IE. He said, "don't you like the magazine?" I said, " Sure I do. I just can't afford it any more because I keep trying to build this stuff." Back to the turbine. Perhaps a lot of info was posted years ago and I missed it. Could someone fill me in? Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 09:09:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4CG8dXt019824; Thu, 12 May 2005 09:08:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4CG7cKs019086; Thu, 12 May 2005 09:07:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:07:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050512115933.0328eeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:04:22 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: $24 million coffee can Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a depressing article from today's Atlanta Journal. A company just spent $24 million developing a self-heating coffee can powered by CaO. This is in a country that somehow cannot afford to risk $1 million or even $100,000 on cold fusion research. See: http://www.ajc.com/search/content/living/0505/12hotlatte.html "Hot joe on the go could hit the spot for busy consumers In a mobile society with a technology fascination and a taste for culinary innovation, food that cooks itself might just be the next big thing. By KIM SEVERSON New York Times Published on: 05/12/05 In the world of food packaging, some innovations are like Post-it notes: You didn't know you needed them until they were invented. Witness tea bags, canned tomatoes and juice boxes. Wolfgang Puck introduced a new line of lattes this month. That the Los Angeles chef has stamped his name on yet another product isn't surprising. But the container is: It heats itself. Pushing the button on the bottom of the can activates the heating mechanism in a new line of lattes by Wolfgang Puck. The technology is expected to expand to other foods. It took a California company named OnTech seven years and $24 million to create the self-heating cans, which are activated by pushing a plastic button on the bottom. Water flows into a sealed inner cone filled with quicklime, which is mostly calcium oxide. . . ." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 10:37:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4CHaiXt027887; Thu, 12 May 2005 10:36:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4CHacF5027809; Thu, 12 May 2005 10:36:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:36:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:36:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Without robust LENR, then the sanest fuel for an ecologically sound future for 10 billion humans (a world population which is not that far off) will require the massive use of "free" neutrons. But like everything regarding neutrons, this statement must be carefully moderated. Wind and water (gravity) energy sources must be maximized, of course, but will fall far short of our needs, due to inevitable "good site" issues. Ironically, even though the nuclear energy sources which we now have are unacceptable - a sustainable energy future must be built on the back of their problems and the lessons-learned - requiring the "intelligently-used" free neutron in a next gen design. The present predicament is that expediency has trumped good design in the past - and now all present nuclear systems are dangerous anachronisms which must be re-engineered... unless, that is, LENR or ZPE devices come to the rescue. In the meantime, we must balance optimism with realism. Roughly half of the all matter consists of neutrons - usually stably bound in the nucleus of atoms. As free particles neutrons are extraordinarily valuable - worth more, pound for pound, than diamonds but unfortunately they are neither easily controlled, nor stable (with a lifetime, when free, of about 660 seconds). The conundrum of the present situation is that the nuclear energy which we have now is absolutely too expensive and too dangerous, but government has kept the free-enterprise system from improving the situation, and has instead provided a rather strong dis-incentive for advancement in fission, while wasting $10 billion on hot fusion.. Nevertheless, as James Lovelock argues, it is nuclear fission, not fusion, which will likely end up as the best solution to our future energy demands. One should add "only if we can find a way to redesign the process for safety and cost." This entails finding the low cost way to produce enough of those valuable neutrons safely. LENR could hold some of the answer, but if not - there are other good choices, and it *can be done* if we can get the pencil pushers in government to assist - rather than hinder the free enterprise system. There are huge advantages to be had in the design of a reactor that is super-safe (subcritical) super-economical (near total burn-up of natural U fuel) and one which disposes of its own nuclear waste, just like the accelerator driven proposals we are hearing so much about lately (which are not focused on power production for some strange reason). All of these can be combined in a single plant. To do all of these things requires vast amounts of "independent" or "makeup" neutrons which do no come from the main reactor chain reaction, but from either an Accelerator-Driven System (ADS) or from an alternative ICF driven system, or from the present alternative design suggestion, which is a hybrid system. Its apparent complexity in this verbalization belies its inherent simplicity in function. Safety lies in assuring that subcriticality is deep enough so that super-prompt criticality can never be reached, no matter how many things go wrong at once. Many of the choices revolve around what is know as a multiplication factor, or K(sub)eff or Keff. This factor characterizes the "criticality state" of the fissile environment. Keff = number of neutrons produced / number of neutrons lost - if Keff = 1: critical environment, - if Keff > 1: supercritical environment, - if Keff < 1: subcritical environment. A fission chain reaction can only be sustained if Keff is greater than or equal to 1, but if only 99.9% of the neutrons required for this can be produced internally then Keff is only .999 and one in a thousand must be derived externally... but done so in a non-feed-back, or "asymmetrical" fashion. But first of all, one must look at the fuel and reactor design. A Keff of .999 is still way too risky with enriched fuel - and only doable in a safe mode with natural uranium - and in an optimal design (with transmutable waste), where reactivity is low compared with using enriched fuel. With enriched fuel this concept would not be possible and it should be reiterated - is absolutely "brain dead" (for all these reasons: safety, cost, ecology and waste disposal). However, in the alternative - these very safety reasons which put a ceiling on the Keff would normally mean that an extremely expensive accelerator is needed to produce enough neutrons. This is the problem which is addressed in the Rubbia design for waste transmutation - but both concepts are really about subcritical reactors which burn waste using large accelerators (or an alternative). Rubbia is an expert in large accelerators, and looked no further. Despite his reputation, his idea is dead in the water. Since we are talking about needing an ultimate reactor flux of perhaps 10^14 neutrons per cubic centimeter of core volume per sec, in order to both produce energy and transmute the waste of previous operations - then even a makeup requirement of one-in-a-thousand for criticality is significant, and without Rubbia's billion-dollar, half-mile long accelerator, seems hopeless to many experts, some of whom are too young to remember... that we once did have the answer. In summary, the bottom line objective for a low-cost subcritical reactor system distills down to a maximization of the neutron gain in a *succession* of linked asymmetrical subsystems, but without heightening the Keff of the main reactor, and keeping the subsystems self-quenching. This key work has be done in experiment - and done some time ago. The high multiplication of neutrons can be achieved in a linked series of asymmetrically coupled systems, using special transport tubes between systems. In this *diode* type arrangement, one device controls another larger one in succession, and the spatial and time delay inherent in having separate, self-quenching systems keeps the overall system super-safe without the need of a wasted billion dollar investment (large accelerator). The key to this plan is a slight improvement in a tiny fifty years old reactor. It is called the heavy water homogeneous reactor, sometime called HRE. It is the size of a basketball and has no other good use than producing lots of neutrons efficiently and cheaply. The question is why has it been so neglected over the years. but part of the answer is obvious. There have been few incentive to improve the nuclear systems we now have (and love to hate) especially when a proliferation risk seemed to be involved - in fact there are large built-in disincentives. This situation must change if we are to move forward. More on the politics of the situation later. Aqueous Homogenous reactors are sometimes also called "Water Boilers" as they seemed to be constantly boiling their moderating water away, and that is the secret to their inherent safety. They were used as research reactors fifty years ago- and still today some are in use overseas - as they have extraordinarily very high neutron fluxes, yet at the same time safety and ease of control (they were self-controlling due to the self-quenching effect of boiling away the moderator). Corrosion was a problem, but that has now been solved: ironically due to the billions sunk into fusion research (glad we got something out of it). Proliferation was deemed to be a risk, as they used enriched fuel, but lo-and behold - they did not "have to".... BTW, Bruce Hoglund has some of this information on his fine web site. The Heavy Water Homogenous Reactor HWHR, despite its age, has the lowest specific fuel requirement EVER designed into any reactor at any time (least amount of required nuclear fuel). Even in the light water versions less than a pound (454 grams) of Plutonium is needed for operation. Neutron economy in the heavy water versions is the highest of all reactors and is still a cold war secret (kind of) but is reported by the Chinese to be only 10 grams ! But, guess what... these HWHRs do not even "need" to be critical in order to be useful, nor fueled with Pu nor highly enriched U (in the water-soluble nitrate form) and they can themselves be subcritical and linked in a short chain of tiny subcritical reactors, feeding a larger power unit which has nuclear waste as part of its own inherent design... ....it is as simple (and as complicated) as that. The self-controlling feature, tiny size, and ability to handle very large increases in reactivity make the HWHR unique among all reactors, and possibly the safest way and certainly the best choice (when redesigned) to replace a billion dollar accelerator... and replace it with a couple of half-million dollar "basketballs" and a few other things. More details will be forthcoming, maybe... as there are important features left out of this posting, which may or may not be worthy of IP protection, but nevertheless are fairly easy to guess, if you are so inclined.... Stay tuned for more, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 15:15:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4CMFDXt009603; Thu, 12 May 2005 15:15:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4CMFAAZ009570; Thu, 12 May 2005 15:15:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 15:15:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:14:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <65l781pvtet37i5lchg1m7eabbnc1p3g3o 4ax.com> References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 12 May 2005 22:14:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4CMF5Xt009447 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 12 May 2005 10:36:06 -0700: Hi Jones, [snip] >In summary, the bottom line objective for a low-cost subcritical >reactor system distills down to a maximization of the neutron gain >in a *succession* of linked asymmetrical subsystems, but without >heightening the Keff of the main reactor, and keeping the >subsystems self-quenching. [snip] How do you ensure that neutrons go up the chain, but not back down again? IOW how do you ensure that a flood of neutrons from the last device in the chain, doesn't force the first device in the chain to go supercritical? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 17:11:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D0AoXt010438; Thu, 12 May 2005 17:10:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D0Al8f010410; Thu, 12 May 2005 17:10:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:10:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c55750$34fb45d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <65l781pvtet37i5lchg1m7eabbnc1p3g3o@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:10:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <8braBC.A.miC.HC_gCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > How do you ensure that neutrons go up the chain, but not back > down > again? IOW how do you ensure that a flood of neutrons from the > last device in the chain, doesn't force the first device in the > chain to go supercritical? Very perceptive. A known fraction will go back, and that is part of the plan. This is the proprietary part. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 17:51:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D0pAXt001552; Thu, 12 May 2005 17:51:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D0p70u001530; Thu, 12 May 2005 17:51:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:51:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4283FA24.6030001 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:51:48 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > ....it is as simple (and as complicated) as that. If I understand you, I can make a potbellied stove out of a chunk of uranium ore and a controllable neutron source. :-) Can you get enough neutrons out of Putterman's dilithium and maintain a safe Kaysubef? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 18:09:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D198Xt010955; Thu, 12 May 2005 18:09:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D1961v010939; Thu, 12 May 2005 18:09:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:09:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=AmqToPhZa5IrzoFsA8wOuD03XhT5ceRPHvQS0QKjQR3g9n1CrdsmezMDfSTByoEm3lbb/LlXOW5OTyd5e9DIT+7Iz7he8pXlOVOnMVWNYuXowaNdLnMdzijegxCpJOAuKNkBezTmXK2nAT7y5zsfpnudsEn99oBl1DVug8bVoNk= ; Message-ID: <20050513005857.19148.qmail web41005.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:58:57 -0700 (PDT) From: not used account Subject: non-looping smot To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050511174917.BWWL2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I doubt that those mags will make it loop though:) I just threw that smot together...thanks for checking out the vids....Not sure how much time I'll continue with this. --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Zackly. I was viewing your SMOT vids. Hunker mags > you got there! > > For some reason, even the non-looping smot is still a little interesting... Joe __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 18:33:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D1WlXt019484; Thu, 12 May 2005 18:32:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D1Wix2019435; Thu, 12 May 2005 18:32:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:32:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428403E4.5000701 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:33:24 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: non-looping smot References: <20050513005857.19148.qmail web41005.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050513005857.19148.qmail web41005.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4RdroD.A.bvE.7OAhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: not used account wrote: >For some reason, even the non-looping smot is still a >little interesting... > Yeah, especially if you can get 1.5 G for one! http://www.butlerlabs.com/2ftmagnapulsion.htm The SUPERSMOT! I had not heard of butler before I visited SONS. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 18:34:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D1YOXt020499; Thu, 12 May 2005 18:34:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D1YMvR020477; Thu, 12 May 2005 18:34:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:34:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003b01c5575b$e37a2300$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4283FA24.6030001@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:34:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <6h5hQB.A.5_E.eQAhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > If I understand you, I can make a potbellied stove out of a > chunk of uranium ore and a controllable neutron source. :-) Hmm...How much reactor grade heavy water do you have on hand to fill it with? Here is an overly simplified explanation of the 'secret' to the efficiency of the HWHR, and to its main deficiency, which keeps it from being used today for power. Normal fission gives about 2.4 new neutrons for every fission neutron. With Nautral U, you immediatlely loose half of these to abosrobtion by other 238U atoms, and if you are not using heavy water or graphite as a moderator you CANNOT go critical, no matter how much fuel you have, as there are too many losses to keep the Keff over 1. However...Uranium is a most remarkable element in that despite it being twice as dense as lead, mas o menos, it can still be turned into either a gas (molecular hexafloride gas) or even **dissolved** in water, as a nitrate. When dissolved in heavy water, where each uranium nitrate molecule is surrounded by several hundred deuterium nuclei within a few angstoms, something amazing happens on a fission reaction. Normally, of course you get two fission fragments and the 2.4 free (and fast) neutrons, but in a solution all 4.4 of these particles, moving at extremely high intial velocity can interact with the hundred or so deutrerium nuclei (they are now 'targets') withing the first nanometer and knock loose another neutron. This has the effect of raising the 2.4 free neutrons to [blip]. Athough I cannot disclose this secret number, let's just say that when low enrichment of even natural U is nitrated in such a reactor that you can still get near a Keff of .99 within your pot-belly-sized stove size factor, which is quite remarkable, if you think about the implications. But let's not go there. The reason that this reactor cannot be used for power is that the reactivity is so great, that if you ever allow it to approach the critical regime, the moderator boils off, almost instantly and quenches the reaction. So inhernetly it cannot get hot and still oeprate. But...hello... we can still find a way to turn that lemon into lemonade ! The totally neglected use of the HWHR (heretofore) is solely as a small and efficient subcritical neutron multiplyer - always keeping the power level relativley low and the device cool, so that boiling does not occur. Our only purpose is to replace a billion dollar accelerator with a few half million dollar pot belly stoves. > Can you get enough neutrons out of Putterman's dilithium and > maintain a safe Kaysubef? Yes, but you probably wouldn't use that anyway, as it is unproven. There are plenty of commercial sources available now that will reliably give you several thousand neuts per sec to start off the linked and staged series of HWHR multipliers. Ironically, the biggest market for small neutron generators is in oil exploration. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 20:15:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D3EqXt006072; Thu, 12 May 2005 20:14:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D3EjWG006001; Thu, 12 May 2005 20:14:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:14:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42841BD0.1010206 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:15:28 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4283FA24.6030001@bellsouth.net> <003b01c5575b$e37a2300$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003b01c5575b$e37a2300$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Yes, but you probably wouldn't use that anyway, as it is unproven. > There are plenty of commercial sources available now that will > reliably give you several thousand neuts per sec to start off the > linked and staged series of HWHR multipliers. Ironically, the biggest > market for small neutron generators is in oil exploration. Well, I was kinda jokin'. What I was asking was can you burn yellowcake with a sufficient neutron source? Then, how much enrichment is required for a given neutron source. I'm sure that you are thinking on a much larger scale than I; but, just how KISS can you make a reactor? A home reactor? I mean, it's probably illegal for me to own Pu. Hell, I couldn't own gold when I was a kid. Could you build a small fission reactor for home use? Why the deuterium if I have an adequate neutron source and the right amount of U enrichment? I don't like shoveling coal; although, I lived in a coal-heated house. If my questions are too trite, please simply ignore. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 21:01:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D41fXt027642; Thu, 12 May 2005 21:01:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D41dM6027621; Thu, 12 May 2005 21:01:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:01:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006401c55770$75ad6a20$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4283FA24.6030001@bellsouth.net> <003b01c5575b$e37a2300$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42841BD0.1010206@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:01:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <-mk4mC.A.dvG.iaChCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > What I was asking was can you burn yellowcake with a sufficient > neutron source? You do not need an external source of neutrons at all in order to burn refined yellowcake. The oxygen is not going to absorb many neutrons. In fact a "natural reactor" using only surface water as a moderator, continued for over 100,000 years at a site in Africa (Oklo) using only natural U. "Then, how much enrichment is required for a given neutron source." Zero, if you use heavy water or carbon as moderator > I'm sure that you are thinking on a much larger scale than I; > but, just how KISS can you make a reactor? A home reactor? It has probably been done at "home"... somewhere ? (certainly not by me) > Why the deuterium if I have an adequate neutron source and the > right amount of U enrichment? No need for D... IF... that is, you have the right enrichment... but enrichment is expensive, much more so than deuterium, even at the heavily subsidized price, and **extremely** wasteful of resources, and too many other reasons to mention.. > If my questions are too trite, please simply ignore. If my answers are too trite, please ignore ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 21:23:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D4NFXt004818; Thu, 12 May 2005 21:23:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D4NCwl004790; Thu, 12 May 2005 21:23:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:23:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007501c55773$75605430$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4283FA24.6030001@bellsouth.net> <003b01c5575b$e37a2300$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42841BD0.1010206@bellsouth.net> <006401c55770$75ad6a20$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:23:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <-ykwcC.A.yKB.wuChCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ADDENDA Terry, I'm sure you noticed the slight contradiction between, > You do not need an external source of neutrons at all in order > to burn refined yellowcake. The oxygen is not going to absorb > many neutrons. In fact a "natural reactor" using only surface > water as a moderator, continued for over 100,000 years at a site > in Africa (Oklo) using only natural U. > "Then, how much enrichment is required for a given neutron > source." > Zero, if you use heavy water or carbon as moderator and the previous assertion, "Normal fission gives about 2.4 new neutrons for every fission neutron. With Natural U, you immediately loose half of these to absorption by other 238U atoms, and if you are not using heavy water or graphite as a moderator you CANNOT go critical, no matter how much fuel you have, as there are too many losses to keep the Keff over 1." OK, the resolution to this and your further question about enrichment is: The natural reactor at Oklo occurred 2 million years ago when all the uranium on earth was of significantly higher enrichment then it is now. The natural U which we have now, in the form of yellowcake having undergone a fractional half-life since then, and presently at the enrichment of ~7 ppk would require a heavy water or carbon moderator to go critical, not light water. There will be no further "natural reactor" except possibly within the earth itself. With only light water as moderator, a significant external neutron source would be required now, based upon the amount of fuel and the geometry of the reactor, which was not the case at Oklo. Claro? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 12 23:31:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4D6VTXt028374; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:31:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4D6VQ5Q028346; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:31:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:31:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050513073119.006787bc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:31:19 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: non-looping smot Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:33 pm 12-05-05 -0400, you wrote: > > >not used account wrote: > >>For some reason, even the non-looping smot is still a >>little interesting... >> > >Yeah, especially if you can get 1.5 G for one! > >http://www.butlerlabs.com/2ftmagnapulsion.htm > >The SUPERSMOT! I had not heard of butler before I visited SONS. Having looked at the video (qui vive) on the above site one can appreciate the seductiveness of the SMOT and its scam capacity. By selecting frames from a video of the ball ascending the slope one can convey any impression one wants of the relation between distance travelled and time taken. Also the frame with no ball and no finger gives the impression to a quasi modo optimist that the ball has disappeared over the edge. It is significant that there is no picture of the ball actually exiting the SMOT. Presumably because it doesn't but simply comes to a shuddering halt at the top of the slope. At best it might travel slightly beyond its equilibrium position only to fall back again. I suppose it is conceivable that it might actually go over the edge, come to a halt in mid-fall and be drawn back to its equilibrium position at the point of minimum magnet separation. In principle it could even fall to the "ground" level from which it started but it would be decelerating all during its fall and arrive at the ground level with zero kinetic energy. It would then take off like a rocket and return to its equilibrium position at the top of the slope. The ball has to run on rails in order for a horizontal component force to be generated sufficient to prevent the ball finishing up on one or other of the magnet faces. This must require quite tricky adjustment of the various dimensions. However, the SMOT is a very good failure for getting one to think about the implications of slingshot action. There is plenty of random motion on a small scale. Could one by slingshot action organise it? Could a suitable arrangement of magnets constitute a Maxwell's demon? In other words, could one make the magnetic equivalent of that other intriguing device, the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex tube? Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 03:07:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DA7BXt003101; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:07:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DA79s9003080; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:07:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 03:07:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Blast from the Past - quotes from Edward Teller Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:00:32 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <200505120833.40543.knuke@sumosound.de> <00b001c556ee$f2bcecc0$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <00b001c556ee$f2bcecc0$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505131200.32922.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <68RDPC.A.-v.MxHhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Jeff! The rotary cavitation device is still a very interesting machine, in my opinion. I think that it would make a dandy subcritical neutron generator, ala Jones Beene. It would bring the cost down to under 20K per unit as opposed to 500K. It can be used for many, many other things as well, of course. I do remember your plans to build one, and if I remember correctly, your idea for the shaft seal was the major problem with your design. You need to be able to be able to build a certain amount of pressure inside the device for it to work properly. For about seven years I did not have the money to work on the device, myself. I have the money now actually, but no time. I do plan to get back to it eventually, but I am currently working another one of those 24/7 jobs. I have had 2 days off in the last 11 months, and whenever I mention the vacation word to my boss, he laughs, and says "Sure! Next Year!". He's a real funny guy. I am looking around for a job that lets me eat, sleep, go to the bathroom, take showers, take days off, vacations, etc., without interruption. Anyway, that is the state of that. If you or anyone else is interested in developing the cavitation device further, I will be glad to assist as my time permits. All of my work or ideas however, will be publically posted so that they are in the public domain. Knuke Am Donnerstag, 12. Mai 2005 14:34 schrieb revtec: > Hey Knuke, > > I have a question for you. What ever happened to your experiment with the > run away plexiglass cavitating turbine. That was a really interesting > article in IE about ten years ago. So interesting that at that time I > attempted to approximate in steel what you did in plastic. I'm sure Mike > Carrell would chide me for not duplicating your machine exactly, but that's > just the way I am. After all, your version melted, and I didn't want that > to happen to me. I put about a thousand bucks into it without getting any > notable results. (That on top of a few thousand into PAGD.) > Not long after that, I spent a hundred dollars on refrigerator magnets a la > Greg Watson. > > I met Gene Mallove twice and spoke to him numerous times on the phone. He > was a bit dismayed when I called once to cancel my subscription to IE. He > said, "don't you like the magazine?" I said, " Sure I do. I just can't > afford it any more because I keep trying to build this stuff." > > Back to the turbine. Perhaps a lot of info was posted years ago and I > missed it. Could someone fill me in? > > Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 05:41:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DCfNXt012713; Fri, 13 May 2005 05:41:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DCfL1K012689; Fri, 13 May 2005 05:41:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 05:41:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 8:41:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050513124114.XWVQ2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" >Claro? Yes. Do you think we used enough trigger words to attract the Carnivores? ;-) http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 07:16:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DEFqXt026520; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:15:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DEFnuQ026503; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:15:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Washington State Solar Bill Signed Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:15:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050513141542.FKOA2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002714.html http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/billinfo/2005-06/Htm/Bills/Senate%20Passed%20Legislature/5101-S.PL.htm or http://tinyurl.com/d392d Allows for recovery of 15 cents per kWhr up to $2,000 per annum for renewable energy generation including solar and anerobic digesters! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 07:22:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DEM0Xt029955; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:22:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DELv7c029923; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:21:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Clean Air and Global Warming Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:21:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050513142145.FYWT2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.pnl.gov/news/2005/05-33.htm "RICHLAND, Wash. – Earth's surface has been getting brighter for more than a decade, a reversal from a dimming trend that may accelerate warming at the surface and unmask the full effect of greenhouse warming, according to an exhaustive new study of the solar energy that reaches land. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 07:46:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DEjmXt008331; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:45:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DEjkIZ008312; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:45:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:45:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Washington State Solar Bill Signed Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:45:40 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20050513141542.FKOA2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050513141542.FKOA2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505131645.40424.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Terry, This is similar to how the Germans have been promoting the use of solar for some time now (at least five years, I would guess). It has been quite successful. I don't know the exact euro cent difference per kWhr or if there is a cap on the annual amount, but they have made it law that the power companies buy back any extra power fed into the grid at a rate that exceeds what the power company can sell it for. When I got here 3 years ago, I talked to a young power company engineer about this, and at the time, he was pretty hot about the subject. He said basically, that it was a giant fraud, etc., and that the power companies shouldn't have to buy the power back at all. This same young man just bought his own home however in the last year, and the first thing he did was cover all of his roof space with S panels. He is not dumb. After living in the US, especially in Florida where the sun shines year round, and not seeing ANY solar panels, it is a joy to drive around the German countryside. Solar panels are on many homes and barns. In North Germany, you see quite a few giant windmills, as well. To me, they are not ugly, and most people that I have talked to celebrate the fact that Germany is becoming more self sufficient for its energy needs, and that they are slowly accomplishing that in an environmentally friendly, and non warlike way. Being one of the most progressive states in the Union, I am not surprised to hear that Washington State finally adopted a similar stance. This should be especially good for the people living in the Seattle area because the power company charges so little per kWhr. When I was there, it was under a nickel, but that may have changed. Billb would know. Way to go, Washington! Knuke Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 16:15 schrieb Terry Blanton: > http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002714.html > > http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/billinfo/2005-06/Htm/Bills/Senate%20Passed%20Legi >slature/5101-S.PL.htm > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/d392d > > Allows for recovery of 15 cents per kWhr up to $2,000 per annum for > renewable energy generation including solar and anerobic digesters! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 08:01:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DF0kY3016802; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:01:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DEPEkw031786; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:25:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:25:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: The Day After Tomorrow Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:25:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050513142502.GGAX2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's hard to believe that Streiber and Bell's "Coming Global Superstorm" could have been so accurate: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1602579,00.html "CLIMATE change researchers have detected the first signs of a slowdown in the Gulf Stream — the mighty ocean current that keeps Britain and Europe from freezing. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 08:03:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DF2gXt017742; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:02:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DF2cM5017713; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:02:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:02:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c557cc$c85362a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <200505120833.40543.knuke@sumosound.de> <00b001c556ee$f2bcecc0$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <200505131200.32922.knuke@sumosound.de> Subject: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:02:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Guten Tag Knuke, > The rotary cavitation device is still a very interesting > machine, in my > opinion. I think that it would make a dandy subcritical neutron > generator, Is there a documented experiment showing neutron production from a rotary cavitation device? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 08:07:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DF7aXt020929; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:07:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DF7Xec020905; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:07:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:07:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: non-looping smot Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:10:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050513073119.006787bc pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, You should be aware that back in the mid 90's, _many_ people were encouraged by Greg to build and test these devices. I was not one of them, preferring my own insanity to others, but some are still on Vo. These devices started with Emil Hartman as far as I can tell, and they do work as described. JLN has a good collection of others work on his site, check there. It's seductive for just that fact, that it does look like you can just tie the tail to the head and have a nice oroborus. That said, no one to my knowledge was ever able to close the loop and return the ball to the starting position. Many ramps were put together in a loop, a looped track was used, and as I last suggested to Greg before he was given the boot, simply allowing the ball to run under the ramp. None of these things should work, by the C of E ( Church Of England???? No, Conservation of Energy, damnit! ) But they should be tried all the same. Not because I doubt in the C of E, but because few systems are really closed to the environment. The funny thing is, it looks like the only person _not_ to have built a smot was Greg himself. That makes me chuckle, it really does. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 08:12:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DFC0Xt023747; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:12:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DFBwEs023723; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:11:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:11:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c557ce$17df3230$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050513124114.XWVQ2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:11:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Yes. Do you think we used enough trigger words to attract the > Carnivores? ;-) > http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/ Well, my own spam filter snagged the original message... kinda like bitten by one's own dog... not that I've fed it anything lately (speaking of carnivores)... but all that spam shoulda been enuf. Can Carnivore "tag" outgoing mail from a forum like BillB's with something that makes it appear as spam? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 08:14:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DFE5Xt025912; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:14:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DFE4iU025885; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:14:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:14:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050513111329.04365d00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:13:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message from Ken Shoulders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: EVOs And The Hutchison Effect A paper by Ken Shoulders entitled "EVOs And The Hutchison Effect" will be presented at the 2005 Conference on Cold Fusion to be held at MIT on May 21. A 1 MB .PDF file showing some of the graphics slides to be used in that presentation can now be downloaded from: http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ Ken From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 08:29:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DFTFXt002836; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:29:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DFT4hZ002760; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:29:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:29:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050513162854.006a70f8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:28:54 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:52 am 11-05-05 +1000, you wrote: >In reply to 's message of Tue, 10 May >2005 17:02:40 -0400: >Hi Steven, >[snip] >>It has been theorized that the electron circling the hydrino's proton nucleus might eventually transform the nucleus into a neutron if there have been a sufficient number of fractional collapses of the orbital shell. I > >This doesn't happen. > >> believe this may occur somewhere around 127 fractional collapses where the electron's velocity would eventually approach the speed of light. > >That number is 137 BTW, not 127. 137 is approximately > the inverse of the fine structure constant. That's very interesting. Is that simply a co-incidence or is there some theoretical reason why the number of collapses (which, of its nature, has to be an integer, happens to be "approximately the inverse of the fine structure constant". I believe Eddington got quite worked up about the number 137. I suppose that must have been in the days before they realise that the fine structure constant was not an integer. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 08:46:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DFkRXt012528; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:46:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DFkQZC012515; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:46:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:46:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Washington State Solar Bill Signed Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:46:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050513154620.MUEE2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Michael Huffman > This is similar to how the Germans have been promoting the use of solar for > some time now (at least five years, I would guess). It has been quite > successful. I don't know the exact euro cent difference per kWhr or if there > is a cap on the annual amount, but they have made it law that the power > companies buy back any extra power fed into the grid at a rate that exceeds > what the power company can sell it for. Yes, Germany is mentioned in the first reference. I don't know how it works there; however, in WA, the power companies are given tax incentives for their cooperation. Generally, do the Germans use crystalline or amorphous? http://solar.calvin.edu/education/comparison.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 08:59:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DFweXt019290; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:58:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DFwbn7019251; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:58:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:58:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:58:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: non-looping smot In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is C of M true as well? Harry Keith Nagel at knagel gis.net wrote: > Hi Frank, > > You should be aware that back in the mid 90's, _many_ people > were encouraged by Greg to build and test these devices. I > was not one of them, preferring my own insanity to others, > but some are still on Vo. These devices started with Emil > Hartman as far as I can tell, and they do work as described. > JLN has a good collection of others work on his site, > check there. It's seductive for just that fact, that it > does look like you can just tie the tail to the head > and have a nice oroborus. > > That said, no one to my knowledge was ever able to close > the loop and return the ball to the starting position. > Many ramps were put together in a loop, a looped track > was used, and as I last suggested to Greg before he > was given the boot, simply allowing the ball to run > under the ramp. None of these things should work, by > the C of E ( Church Of England???? No, Conservation > of Energy, damnit! ) But they should be tried all the > same. Not because I doubt in the C of E, but because > few systems are really closed to the environment. > > The funny thing is, it looks like the only person _not_ > to have built a smot was Greg himself. That makes me > chuckle, it really does. > > K. > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 10:42:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DHfoXt014104; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:41:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DHfjwe014003; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:41:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:41:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: OT: National ID card Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:44:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I'm sort of curious what you all think about the national ID card bill that President Bush signed into law last wednesday. You will all be required to prove citizenship the next time you renew your drivers licences, rather than the usual mail-in update. A federal database will store all of this information, which can be checked by law enforcement as they see fit. Your new drivers license will be a federal ID card. This is the full bill, you must look inside of the massive document to find the 7 pages relevant to this new Real ID. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.01268: Here is a short faq http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html?part=rss&tag=5697111&subj=news A few questions. 1) Did you know of this law before I posted about it here? 2) If you did, how did you find out about it? 3) Having been rejected as a stand alone bill, would anyone like to speculate on why it was appended to this military appropriations bill? 4) Are the 54 people who voted against this bill unpatriotic? Enquiring minds want to know... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 11:14:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DIESXt006790; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:14:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DIERLQ006773; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:14:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:14:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010201c557e7$96c1eac0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Name of the Game Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:14:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The name of the game these days is CHANGE. Change seems to be "in the wind" in 2005. Personally, I have been obsessed lately with changing the widespread misconception that nuclear energy cannot be vastly improved (should other options like ZPE/LENR fail) ... but... in taking a break from that, one can see evidence of "quickening" in many fields. Ken Shoulder announcement today is another one that portends an accelerating pace of change, but the permutations of interlocking change will surprise us - as on so many fronts, synergy and cross-fertilization are bound to merge soon with an end-result that can be characterized as an "emergent" property. It is often unexpected. Look at the science press today. You may see only "gradual change" but there is a case to be made for rather rapid change, disguised as gradual. For instance, what is the "driving force" behind cutting-edge computer advancement? ...NASA? the military ? physics? weather forecasting? the home/office? Nada... How about gaming... or rather... mostly male teenagers with a surprising amount of discretionary income (the old 'allowance' ain't what it used to be) getting addicted to video gaming... usually violent gaming... which has now moved out of the arcade and into the home, where kids are (either) further exploited by our friends in Redmond ... (or else) they are just the unwitting catalyst for some hidden force or super-meme - a self-motivating trend which might eventually evolve into the most remarkable synergetic change that any human can imagine...(this is the teaser that awaits and "evolve" is the operative word). But first consider the XBox 360, introduced today, which will blow the socks off your 3 Ghz Pentium.... "the overall floating point performance will be a ballistic one teraflop. Rob Smith, editor of Microsoft's official Xbox Magazine, describes the machine as "significantly faster than the fastest PC"...and for a few hundred bucks, it will give you roughly the same computing power of the Cray of the mid-90s which cost at least $10,000,000. For instance, Sandia National Laboratory in 1997 obtained its first teraflop computer, and it required nearly 1,600 square feet of office space and cost more than seven figures just in man-hours to maintain. Now it fits in back pack and in two years it will be implantable. This is way beyond Moore's law. The reason that gaming is the driving force beyond rapidly gains in computer power is economics - plain and simple. And even more ironic is that, in the economics equation, the XBox CPU itself is a "loss leader"... which means it is sold for less than cost, and merely sets the stage for software income. 25-50 million teenagers is the target audience worldwide, spending upwards to $1000 per year for the latest games (now sold on a subscription basis) provides a huge marketing stimulus that no national laboratory or even the military can match .... ... did I hear a grumpy old man mutter something about "misplaced priorities"? Jones PS> Almost forgot about the teaser. Well, in this case the "priorities" for rapid change may not exactly be 'misplaced' in the normal sense, just well-shrouded... as it is very curious that the explosion in cheap processing power (which seems to never slacken) could be a part of some "higher-order" plan... i.e. this phenomenon could be the methodology for a completely different agenda (because that agenda is so "disturbing" the first time it is encountered, it must be cloaked in disinformation until the proper timing). Only a few months ago, while musing on the amazing sales of the iPod, the thought occurred (not an "original" thought - as the product is now here)...why not combine the iPod with a Wi-Fi PDA, cell phone, and digital camera? OK, now lets throw in an XBox supercomputer (one or more), add voice recognition (which will hopefully advance exponentially in capabilities soon - with an XBox brain) and also add an implantable earphone (if not the whole appliance being implantable)... and what have you got looming on the horizon? By 2007, roughly, if the pace of change continues unabated, we will have created the situation where person-to-person dealings will never be the same, as each person will be measured, not by his intelligence, skills, education, insight and other normal traits, but by the strength of the hardware/software which has become his/her new identity. This appliance is poised and able to control all of a person's day-to-day activities, social interactions, long-term planning and indeed even provide the motivation for personal success. All at a price, of course. This surrender-of-self will be all voluntary, of course, and will be despised and scorned by many, but the temptation to become an instant genius and expert at everything, a well-motivated success driven citizen - will be so tempting that few (of those who can afford the software) will not succumb. Not to mention the fact that all those thousands of jobs - telephone support, order taking, complaints etc. which were exported and outsourced to India and elsewhere, will now be repatriated, thanks to the "sons-of-xbox" the "talkers and parsers" who will be a new generation of non-human worker. For instance, your answering machine will "be you" in that any caller will not be able to distinguish whether he is talking to the human or to the human's alter ego. And the 'real you' who is perhaps on vacation in Mexico, will be able to listen in, and in the rare event that your alter-ego does not express your sentiments on the occasion, you will be able to rectify the problem. Your boss will think you've been going to night school and that you want his job. On "Mothers Day" Moms all over the world will be getting those calls from the prodigal son's alter-ego that she never got before from him, and her only clue will be that "this year he actually remembered".... or not. Anyway, it is the next step beyond this scenario which is the "shocker". I'm not sure that vortex is prepared to learn that the real "Name of the Game" is EVOLUTION. Again, we're not talking 'gradual' here, but instead it is evolution into a new species, and possibly within our lifetimes! The end-product and true identity of this new species will be most unexpected as well - not solely human nor solely machine but a neo-chimera, a man-machine hybrid. ...or is this the prequel to the Matrix ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 11:20:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DIKTXt009665; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:20:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DIKRZP009639; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:20:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:20:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:20:26 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Name of the Game In-reply-to: <010201c557e7$96c1eac0$6401a8c0 NuDell> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <6JLOo.A.jWC.q_OhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well I think the love of money is driving current change. Harry Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote: > > Look at the science press today. You may see only "gradual change" > but there is a case to be made for rather rapid change, disguised > as gradual. For instance, what is the "driving force" behind > cutting-edge computer advancement? > > ...NASA? the military ? physics? weather forecasting? the > home/office? > > Nada... How about gaming... or rather... mostly male teenagers > with a surprising amount of discretionary income (the old > 'allowance' ain't what it used to be) getting addicted to video > gaming... usually violent gaming... which has now moved out of the > arcade and into the home, where kids are (either) further > exploited by our friends in Redmond ... (or else) they are just > the unwitting catalyst for some hidden force or super-meme - a > self-motivating trend which might eventually evolve into the most > remarkable synergetic change that any human can imagine...(this is > the teaser that awaits and "evolve" is the operative word). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 11:22:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DIMAXt010495; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:22:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DIM6dE010456; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:22:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:22:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:21:57 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <200505131200.32922.knuke@sumosound.de> <003101c557cc$c85362a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003101c557cc$c85362a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505132021.57381.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Jones, To my knowledge, nobody has ever written anything on this subject except me, but it was such an obvious thing to do, that I am sure somebody else has tried it. I should say that I am nearly 100% sure that others know of this, but are just not allowed to disclose. Shortly after I did my experiment, a NATO conference was held just North of Seattle and all of the major people working with cavitation at that time were "invited". That would include Putterman, the rest of the UC cavitation bunch, and the U of Washington cavitation crowd. The rest were military guys, mostly from the Navy. I was not allowed in, of course. My one and only experiment with radioactive stuff was in 1996. As it happened, I was living in an old apartment in the Capitol Hill area of downtown Seattle that had yellowcake glazed tiles on the kitchen walls. The apartment was about 100 years old, and yellowcake was a commonly used material back then for glazing tiles. I cut up some old Levis jeans into squares about 5 inches square, simply wiped the kitchen tiles down with the jeans material dampened with tap water, and then I let about 6 of these squares soak overnight in a couple of liters of tap water that I put in the fridge. The next day, I ran the water through my machine, but after about 5 seconds, I felt like I had been hit by a truck. I turned the machine off and stumbled into the bathroom. My eyes were completely bloody, my nose was bleeding, and I didn't know which end of me to point at the toilet first. It was a bloody mess, as the Brits would say. I spent the next two weeks in absolute agony, but I slowly recovered. The rotor of my device was shot through with holes. The first really stupid thing about that experiment was that I did it without any shielding. The second really stupid thing about it was that I had a geiger counter in my apartment, and just didn't bother to turn it on. Actually, the first really, really stupid thing about doing that experiment was doing it at all. I didn't write it up at the time, basically because I was afraid. I forget exactly when I did disclose it publically, but I think that it was 2 or 3 years later when I was reading one of Scott Little's online experiments that looked like it might actually work. Like so many other experimenters we know or knew, this highly trained, extremely intelligent, meticulously careful person was pressing his face up against some thin plexiglass window to watch what was happening inside of a functioning cell. He had loads of shielding and measuring gear in his lab, and was desperately working to initiate a nuclear reaction, but he wasn't using any of the safety or measuring equipment. I finally wrote up what happened to me to illustrate (once again) what can happen when things actually do work the way you hope. I take it Mizuno wasn't reading the Vortex Group that day, either. I personally have no desire to ever repeat this, as there are more than enough non-nuclear, sane applications for my device for me to spend several lifetimes doing experiments with it. It is a really cool machine. If you are crazy enough to try something like this out yourself however, I would highly recommend using a SBSL rig, instead of a massively multibubble device like mine, to make the experiment a lot safer (easier and cheaper too, I might add). Use shielding out the wazoo, and turn your geiger counter on. Fission is all too easy when you use cavitation. You don't need a lot of radioactive material, either. Like I said, I just wiped down the surface of the tiles with damp cloth, and had more than plenty. You couldn't even see any trace of the radioactive material on the cloth, it was such a small amount. Viel Glueck und Rotsa Rueck! Knuke Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 17:02 schrieb Jones Beene: > Guten Tag Knuke, > > > The rotary cavitation device is still a very interesting > > machine, in my > > opinion. I think that it would make a dandy subcritical neutron > > generator, > > Is there a documented experiment showing neutron production from a > rotary cavitation device? > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 12:05:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DJ5XXt001485; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:05:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DJ5UQe001426; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:05:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:05:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050513150423.043741a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:05:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Sonofusion article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4DJ5PXt001193 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/may05/0505sono.html Bubble Power Tiny bubbles imploded by sound waves can make hydrogen nuclei fuse­and may one day become a revolutionary new energy source By Richard T. Lahey Jr., Rusi P. Taleyarkhan & Robert I. Nigmatulin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 12:29:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DJSpXt016288; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:28:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DJSnZu016270; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:28:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:28:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050513202840.00695ca4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:28:40 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: National ID card Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:44 pm 13-05-05 -0400, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I'm sort of curious what you all think about the national ID >card bill that President Bush signed into law last wednesday. >You will all be required to prove citizenship the next time >you renew your drivers licences, rather than the usual mail-in >update. A federal database will store all of this information, >which can be checked by law enforcement as they see fit. Your >new drivers license will be a federal ID card. > >This is the full bill, you must look inside of the massive document >to find the 7 pages relevant to this new Real ID. > >http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.01268: > >Here is a short faq > >http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html?part=rss&tag=5697111&subj=news > > >A few questions. > >1) Did you know of this law before I posted about it here? >2) If you did, how did you find out about it? >3) Having been rejected as a stand alone bill, would anyone > like to speculate on why it was appended to this > military appropriations bill? >4) Are the 54 people who voted against this bill unpatriotic? > >Enquiring minds want to know... > >K. Same thing's happening on this side of the pond. Won't be long before they are injecting us all with chips (silicon, not potato). hic sapientia est qui habet intellectum conputet numerum bestiae numerus enim hominis est et numerus eius est sescenti sexaginta sex ;-) F.G. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 12:43:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DJh7TA023752; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:43:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DJgvIf023658; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:42:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:42:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Washington State Solar Bill Signed Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:42:18 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20050513154620.MUEE2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050513154620.MUEE2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505132142.18670.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Terry, I know very little about what kind of deals the German government made with the power companies, but there must have been something similar as to the tax incentives for the power companies. Apparently, there was a major consolidation of the utilities in general in the last 5 years or so, so I would imagine that they have a pretty powerful lobby, but they are at the same time intelligent enough politically to apply their influence in the background. The power company name that I see most often is called Eon. As for the type of material that is in use for the panels, I'm not sure. I recall reading some time ago that Siemens was one of the major players in the solar panel industry here, and that they were offering panels that came with a 20 year warranty. A quick search would probably bring up a lot of hype on whatever technology is in production. I could write my engineer friend, and ask him what he decided to use. I am long overdue in writing to him anyway. I'll let you know what he says. Knuke Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 17:46 schrieb Terry Blanton: > Yes, Germany is mentioned in the first reference. I don't know how it > works there; however, in WA, the power companies are given tax incentives > for their cooperation. > > Generally, do the Germans use crystalline or amorphous? > > http://solar.calvin.edu/education/comparison.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 12:47:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DJkhTA025787; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:46:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DJkeh7025741; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:46:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:46:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050513204627.006aee28 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:46:27 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: non-looping smot Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:10 am 13-05-05 -0400, Keith wrote: > Hi Frank, > > You should be aware that back in the mid 90's, _many_ people > were encouraged by Greg to build and test these devices. I > was not one of them, preferring my own insanity to others, > but some are still on Vo. These devices started with Emil > Hartman as far as I can tell, and they do work as described. > JLN has a good collection of others work on his site, > check there. I had a quick look but I only saw two ramp systems. I don't think one has to go as far as having a circle of ramps. If the steel ball could transit a straight line of 100 SMOTS, say, that would be pretty convincing. > ......... Not because I doubt in the C of E, but because > few systems are really closed to the environment. I would go further and say that: ================================================== No "systems are really closed to the environment." ================================================== Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 13:07:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DK6pTA002699; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:06:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DK6nLn002679; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:06:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:06:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: non-looping smot Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:09:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050513204627.006aee28 pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank writes: >I don't think one has to go as far as having a circle of >ramps. If the steel ball could transit a straight line of >100 SMOTS, say, that would be pretty convincing. What's the difference between 2 and 100? Nothing, IMHO. The challenge is curving the line back on itself. I have no doubt that one could string as many ramps together as one liked. I seem to remember one industrious fellow doing 3 or 4. JLN's site is like a mouse warren, keep poking around and you'll find more. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 13:52:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DKq8TA027794; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:52:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DKq6N3027778; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:52:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:52:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OmaMpSzPYbA53HynWDp0Ky+RzD8gDckjHzGir8g/85zJZV2g6Uif9NZ8vykzMCx9c9Cc4lUUurAbxqcdihyZgB4fol92WoBvhCdODUrb0nBWMQHlTFAhLidzKzwM+NmhGQt75Th6kSLG5SZqSCBB+8RjS5lLgW/XevUqaYbYZvM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:52:00 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: National ID card In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050513202840.00695ca4 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <2.2.32.20050513202840.00695ca4 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4DKq4TA027678 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: yes, i knew, becuase i stay VERY informed. it was tacked on quietly, becuase those who tacked it on did not want those opposed to it to know. in fact, several people that voted for it had not yet been told about the rider, and have stated that they would have voted against. and no, those that voted FOR it are unpatriotic. btw, the way the card is designed for verification, it will be VERY easy the first year or so to get one with false identification. especially those with multiple ids already. it will make surviving the police state we are approaching a little easier. On 5/13/05, Grimer wrote: > At 01:44 pm 13-05-05 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >I'm sort of curious what you all think about the national ID > >card bill that President Bush signed into law last wednesday. > >You will all be required to prove citizenship the next time > >you renew your drivers licences, rather than the usual mail-in > >update. A federal database will store all of this information, > >which can be checked by law enforcement as they see fit. Your > >new drivers license will be a federal ID card. > > > >This is the full bill, you must look inside of the massive document > >to find the 7 pages relevant to this new Real ID. > > > >http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.01268: > > > >Here is a short faq > > > >http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html?part=rss&tag=5697111&subj=news > > > > > >A few questions. > > > >1) Did you know of this law before I posted about it here? > >2) If you did, how did you find out about it? > >3) Having been rejected as a stand alone bill, would anyone > > like to speculate on why it was appended to this > > military appropriations bill? > >4) Are the 54 people who voted against this bill unpatriotic? > > > >Enquiring minds want to know... > > > >K. > > Same thing's happening on this side of the pond. > Won't be long before they are injecting us all > with chips (silicon, not potato). > > hic sapientia est qui habet intellectum conputet > numerum bestiae numerus enim hominis est et > numerus eius est sescenti sexaginta sex ;-) > > F.G. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 13:58:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DKwYTA031884; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:58:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DKwTfi031837; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:58:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:58:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dmh6$trh86u mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,108,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1001955550:sNHT16416592" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Name of the Game Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:57:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > The name of the game these days is CHANGE. Change seems > to be "in the wind" in 2005. ... Hi Jones, As always, another thought provoking essay. I wanted to mention the fact that for the past week I, too, had been speculating along the same evolutionary lines of thought though not specifically in terms of what the new XBOX 360 or IPOD could be used for. I'll get back to this "coincidence" in thought at the end of my essay. But first: Like your own speculations, it seems possible to me that humanity may soon be presented with several choices for which the ramifications could easily transform our species into...well...something quite different. The catalyst for that "evolutionary change" is IMHO the Internet itself. As has already been speculated ad nausea by several contemporary SF writers (I.e. The Matrix) the physical structure of the Internet appears to be evolving in a way that might eventually mimic the synaptic connections of a massive planetary Global Brain, perhaps eventually achieving a kind of Universal Consciousness in its own right. As the Internet continues to grow in sophistication and power all that might be left for us human beings to figure out would be how best to interface with it. Ultimately I would think direct cortical connections (wet wired interfaces) would be the best way to go. What advantages and (or disadvantages) would such intimate interfacing give the next stage of humanity? Perhaps it depends on how dedicated these interfaces turn out to be. Would we be able to choose when to be "connected", or would it eventually become the law that we ALWAYS be connected! No doubt, more cannon fodder for the gifted SF writer. My obvious hope is that when these cortical connections become available (AND REST ASSURED, THEY WILL BECOME AVAILABLE - PERHAPS EVEN WITHIN OUR LIFETIMES!) our personal adventures in "interfacing" will remain individual choices allowing us to dip into and out of the vast reservoir of "Global Consciousness" at our pleasure. There is a mystic side to this potential evolutionary step that is, IMHO, worth exploring just a tad: The wonders of science and technology occasionally seem to mirror what some religious philosophers have speculated will become our ultimate evolutionary spiritual path, that of reintegrating our individual consciousness (our spirit if you will) to a greater whole, or said differently: greater gestalts of perception and awareness. Will the advances of Technologically induced conscious interfacing bring forth the accumulated consensus of a Planetary Consciousness that we can tap into at will, or will this technology bring forth something more mysterious: As if it will be used as an AID (like strapping on training wheels) that ultimately helps us discover biological abilities that currently remain undeveloped in a large part of the human race. Perhaps it may turn out to be a combination of both technological and biological advances, and then, something more where genetic engineering plays a significant role as well. Quite likely, the latter. But getting back to Mr. Beene's essay, I want to bring up the fact that for the past week I, TOO, had been thinking about what could happen to the evolution of humanity as we begin integrating and interfacing these technological wonders into our bodies & society. Warning! Those who are unwilling to trust any thoughts that haven't been filtered through their rational filters will probably poo-poo the following speculation, but I personally don't feel it was a mere random coincidence that Mr. Beene and I appeared to be thinking about the same concepts this week. I had, in fact, been seriously thinking about writing an essay based on some of Mr. Beene's speculations and posting them within Vortex when he beat me to the punch. He is, after all, a gifted and prolific writer, and on many subjects he is a far better storyteller than I. There seems to be evidence to support the suspicion that unique ideas and spiffy new inventions do not manifest into physical existence from the fertile imagination of a mere single individual, but simultaneously from the fertile minds of several individuals located all over the planet. Often these individuals are completely oblivious to the actions of each other. It's almost like there exists a kind of Universal Insurance Policy that doesn't care a hoot WHO trots the product to the finish line, just as long as ONE of them does. I suspect this Jungian-like synchronicity is a well documented phenomenon that, so far, has only been treated as harmless anecdotal literature primarily because our western based rationally dominated culture has no practical way to explore these ramifications in a serious scientifically controlled way. Too bad! As for me, I suspect the Super Internet already exists in some other layer of reality. I suspect we, as a species, have the biological means to tap into it. In fact, I suspect most of us occasionally interface with the Super Internet (perhaps a better word is: BLUNDER) all the time without realizing it. I suspect I blundered into the same broadcast station that Mr. Beene had already tapped. Again, it doesn't matter WHO trots to the finish line, just as long as ONE of them does. Perhaps the ultimate legacy the Internet we all love or hate, filled with its wonders, viruses, worms, and SPAM may ultimately give us is a cryptic roadmap pointing us in the direction of how best to interface with the Ultimate Super Internet. I suspect there is infinitely more to "tap" into from the Super Internet. Assuming our species eventually acquires free and abundant sources of energy, and our choices will multiply exponentially. Our species will likely be given the chance branch into many fascinating different directions, from the stalwart Luddite all the way to Virtual Photon-based Angels. Regarding the process of evolution: "Resistance is Futile!" - The BORG Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 14:09:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DL8nTA004494; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:08:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DL8kmj004466; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:08:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:08:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Name of the Game Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:08:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <6IGvy.A.uFB.ddRhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: > all the way to Virtual Photon-based Angels. Yes, the end of kali yuga and the emergence of homo luminous: http://www.sacredmysteries.com/sacredmysteries/GreatYugas5.htm Perhaps a re-read of Sir Clarke's "Childhood's End" is in order. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 14:23:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DLMsTA012534; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:22:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DLMpC2012506; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:22:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:22:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004301c55802$650173a0$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Cc: "Bob Flower" References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <200505131200.32922.knuke@sumosound.de> <003101c557cc$c85362a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <200505132021.57381.knuke@sumosound.de> Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:26:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Huffman" To: Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - I reread your article in 1995 vol. 1 , no. 1of IE which concluded with your impending success. What happened? Didn't your next model work? I recall knowing about your kitchen sheathed in yellow cake tiles, but can't recall if you told me that or if it was mentioned in a subsequent article that I am yet to rediscover. The implication was that the runaway operation was possibly caused because the experiment was surrounded by radioactive walls. I don't recall that you ever indicated that you used uranium laced water to fuel the turbine. Was it during the runaway describe in the article that you suffered injury or was it during a later experiment? Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 14:56:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DLtwTA028063; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:55:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DLtucM028040; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:55:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:55:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050513225549.006782c8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:55:49 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: non-looping smot Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:09 pm 13-05-05 -0400, you wrote: >Frank writes: >>I don't think one has to go as far as having a circle of >>ramps. If the steel ball could transit a straight line of >>100 SMOTS, say, that would be pretty convincing. > >What's the difference between 2 and 100? Nothing, IMHO. Well if it will go 100 against air resistance and other losses then presumably it will go 1000, 1000,000 and eventually encircle the earth in which case the line will have curved back on itself. No? ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 15:46:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DMjtTA020925; Fri, 13 May 2005 15:45:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DMjkhJ020843; Fri, 13 May 2005 15:45:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:45:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: non-looping smot Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:48:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050513225549.006782c8 pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hadn't really thought of that...a funny image, that. All the same, it seems clear from experiment that multiple ramps can be joined in a line. Perhaps as you say, after many such ramps the ball will peter out, hooking somewhere between the exit and entrance. It would seem like frictional losses would mount as you progressed down the line. Yet each ramp could also been seen to be adding a certain amount of energy, to be subtracted on the return trip. It'd really be better to focus on one ramp, and the critical return circuit. I suggested to Greg, with the usual utter lack of acknowledgement, that this would be his unique piece of IP to be patented. The "heart and soul" of the SMOT. The ramp had already been done by someone else, as I mentioned. He claimed to have not followed up on Emil Hartman, but someone should, probably an interesting story there. K. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 6:56 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: non-looping smot At 04:09 pm 13-05-05 -0400, you wrote: >Frank writes: >>I don't think one has to go as far as having a circle of >>ramps. If the steel ball could transit a straight line of >>100 SMOTS, say, that would be pretty convincing. > >What's the difference between 2 and 100? Nothing, IMHO. Well if it will go 100 against air resistance and other losses then presumably it will go 1000, 1000,000 and eventually encircle the earth in which case the line will have curved back on itself. No? ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 13:34:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4DKXiTA016895; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:33:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4DKXNp2016778; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:33:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:33:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=krX/ZaB5G4U7QiXNFkVTWf0VcrQ9XLBef4p62wJBsjLSrtYPkh60YG9FQAmn1aGcw+Rzy5c8uGL2E3/WdPnF6TMIY4W1pvbJlUpJAx5E72IoSPNGks46Ii4SQhBv9K8Zh+or/bDSZ89vHXZrnHJoIA2UKtxqVXlTrv7PHxndKTg= ; Message-ID: <20050513203304.92693.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:33:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Re: Washington State Solar Bill Signed To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends12 Status: RO X-Status: Gents, I have a little in-road into the German PV scene. >From what I can tell, crystalline Si is still out in front, however there a couple of German companies are now looking seriously at one of the thin film competitors - cadmium telluride. The company I work for currently is developing an atmospheric pressure vapor deposition process for CdTe. (Three cheers for II-VI chalcogenides huzzah huzzah huzzah) The company I worked for up until 2003 - First Solar LLC of Perrysburg, Ohio (formerly Solar Cells Inc.) is selling CdTe thin film PV hand over fist (or Hanover Fist?) in Germany. Another German firm that was defunct for a while, Antec, is back, I hear, and getting into CdTe again. I think the big PV players in Germany are RWE Schott (with a Si plant in Billerica, Mass) and Q-Cells. NR --- Michael Huffman wrote: > Moin Terry, > > I know very little about what kind of deals the > German government made with > the power companies, but there must have been > something similar as to the tax > incentives for the power companies. Apparently, > there was a major > consolidation of the utilities in general in the > last 5 years or so, so I > would imagine that they have a pretty powerful > lobby, but they are at the > same time intelligent enough politically to apply > their influence in the > background. The power company name that I see most > often is called Eon. > > As for the type of material that is in use for the > panels, I'm not sure. I > recall reading some time ago that Siemens was one of > the major players in the > solar panel industry here, and that they were > offering panels that came with > a 20 year warranty. A quick search would probably > bring up a lot of hype on > whatever technology is in production. I could write > my engineer friend, and > ask him what he decided to use. I am long overdue > in writing to him anyway. > I'll let you know what he says. > > Knuke > > Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 17:46 schrieb Terry > Blanton: > > Yes, Germany is mentioned in the first reference. > I don't know how it > > works there; however, in WA, the power companies > are given tax incentives > > for their cooperation. > > > > Generally, do the Germans use crystalline or > amorphous? > > > > http://solar.calvin.edu/education/comparison.php > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 17:35:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E0YnTA012423; Fri, 13 May 2005 17:34:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E0Yk9H012398; Fri, 13 May 2005 17:34:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:34:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Name of the Game Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:34:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Perhaps a re-read of Sir Clarke's "Childhood's End" is in order. > :-) Indeed. Hard to believe it was published 53 years ago... but it could have been yesterday. Author Arthur was 36 at the time - in his prime; and will likely be seen as the preeminent prophet of the 20th Century. I hadn't consiously thought about that book in years, but recent post was unmistakably influenced by it. There is an interesting disclaimer on the credit page: "The opinions expressed in this book are not those of the author" ... meaning cryptically, one might suppose, that no opinion is really our "own." Go figure... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 18:47:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E1kZTA016909; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:46:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E1kWWS016874; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:46:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:46:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428558A1.4000201 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:47:13 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Name of the Game References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4-7QrC.A.aHE.2hVhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Indeed. Hard to believe it was published 53 years ago... but it could > have been yesterday. Author Arthur was 36 at the time - in his prime; > and will likely be seen as the preeminent prophet of the 20th Century. > I hadn't consiously thought about that book in years, but recent post > was unmistakably influenced by it. > > There is an interesting disclaimer on the credit page: "The opinions > expressed in this book are not those of the author" ... meaning > cryptically, one might suppose, that no opinion is really our "own." > > Go figure... Well, I think Jed has contact with Sr.ACC. I have asked what was the inspiration for the book; but, have not received a definitive answer. As I recall, author Arthur said something like "Check the ### release of the book.". If only (w)he (-k)knew. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 19:45:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E2imTA016444; Fri, 13 May 2005 19:44:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E2id6X016300; Fri, 13 May 2005 19:44:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:44:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428558A1.4000201@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Name of the Game Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:47:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I got a reply from Mr. Clark to a letter I sent him around 1965 in which he compared "Childhood's End" to a previous work "City and the Stars". I don't recall that he said anything profound, but if I can figure where I put it, I can scan it or transcribe it for anyone who wishes to see it. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 9:47 PM Subject: Re: Name of the Game > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Indeed. Hard to believe it was published 53 years ago... but it could > > have been yesterday. Author Arthur was 36 at the time - in his prime; > > and will likely be seen as the preeminent prophet of the 20th Century. > > I hadn't consiously thought about that book in years, but recent post > > was unmistakably influenced by it. > > > > There is an interesting disclaimer on the credit page: "The opinions > > expressed in this book are not those of the author" ... meaning > > cryptically, one might suppose, that no opinion is really our "own." > > > > Go figure... > > > Well, I think Jed has contact with Sr.ACC. I have asked what was the > inspiration for the book; but, have not received a definitive answer. > As I recall, author Arthur said something like "Check the ### release of > the book.". > > If only (w)he (-k)knew. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 20:21:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E3LcGt004320; Fri, 13 May 2005 20:21:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E3LZYo004296; Fri, 13 May 2005 20:21:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:21:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c55834$00d8d080$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OT: Natioanl ID card Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:20:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5580A.0164FD00"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <5BVEJD.A.DDB.-6WhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5580A.0164FD00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5580A.016683A0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5580A.016683A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHi Keith, Yes, I noticed the report about legislation in Congress regarding the = national ID card. In Texas, there is a bill pending that permits the = Texas Dept. of Transportation ( TxDot) to implant a transponder into = each new vehicle registration sticker that affixes to the windshield. = This law should go into effect Jan 2006.=20 The reported purpose is for use on Tollways. Permanent EZ tag if you = will. However the transponder will have imbedded data identifying the = registrant that includes everything found on you drivers liscense = application ( not just whats on your drivers liscense). The report is = that when you enter a tollway you will be billed for that use. BUT an = uninsured vehicle can be recognized and sent a $ 250.00 fine for driving = without liability insurance. Now couple that with the national ID and we get a better view of where = the Homeland Security laws are headed. AND.. couple that with the new IRS plan to "privatize" collections of = past due IRS taxes to Washington law firm who will receive a portion of = all past due taxes collected similar to Texas law regarding real estate = taxes "farmed out collectors i.e law firms" Notwithstanding , a person can "jimmy" the transponder, an illegal alien = wont have a liscense sticker to begin with much less insurance. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5580A.016683A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hi Keith,
 
Yes, I noticed the report about legislation in Congress regarding = the=20 national ID card.     In Texas, there is a bill = pending that=20 permits the Texas Dept. of Transportation ( TxDot) to  implant a=20 transponder into each new vehicle registration sticker that affixes to = the=20 windshield. This law should go into effect Jan 2006.

The reported purpose is for use on Tollways. Permanent EZ tag = if you=20 will. However the transponder will have imbedded data identifying the = registrant=20 that includes everything found on you drivers liscense application ( not = just=20 whats on your drivers liscense). The report is that when you enter a = tollway you=20 will be  billed for that use. BUT an uninsured vehicle can be = recognized=20 and sent a $ 250.00 fine for driving without liability insurance.
 
Now couple that with the national ID and we get a better view of = where the=20 Homeland Security laws are headed.
AND.. couple that with the new IRS plan to "privatize" collections = of past=20 due IRS taxes to Washington law firm who will receive a portion of all = past due=20 taxes collected similar to Texas law regarding real estate taxes "farmed = out=20 collectors i.e law firms"
 
Notwithstanding , a person can "jimmy" the transponder, an illegal = alien=20 wont have a liscense sticker to begin with much less insurance.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5580A.016683A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5580A.0164FD00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c55833$ea3363e0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5580A.0164FD00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 20:50:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E3oUGt019028; Fri, 13 May 2005 20:50:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E3oT8d019016; Fri, 13 May 2005 20:50:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:50:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Message from Ken Shoulders Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:50:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050513111329.04365d00 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050513111329.04365d00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 14 May 2005 03:50:21 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4E3oQGt018970 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 13 May 2005 11:13:46 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Subject: EVOs And The Hutchison Effect > >A paper by Ken Shoulders entitled "EVOs And The Hutchison Effect" will be >presented at the 2005 Conference on Cold Fusion to be held at MIT on May >21. A 1 MB .PDF file showing some of the graphics slides to be used in that >presentation can now be downloaded from: >http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ > >Ken > Now read http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m31728.html again. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 20:57:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E3v3Gt021978; Fri, 13 May 2005 20:57:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E3uwrg021914; Fri, 13 May 2005 20:56:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:56:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050514045646.0068fbe0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 04:56:46 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: non-looping smot Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:48 pm 13-05-05 -0400, Keith wrote: > I hadn't really thought of that...a funny image, that. > > All the same, it seems clear from experiment that > multiple ramps can be joined in a line. Perhaps as > you say, after many such ramps the ball will peter > out, hooking somewhere between the exit and entrance. > It would seem like frictional losses would mount > as you progressed down the line. Yet each ramp > could also been seen to be adding a certain amount > of energy, to be subtracted on the return trip. > > It'd really be better to focus on one ramp, and the > critical return circuit. I suggested to Greg, with > the usual utter lack of acknowledgement, that > this would be his unique piece of IP to be patented. > The "heart and soul" of the SMOT. The ramp had > already been done by someone else, as I mentioned. > He claimed to have not followed up on Emil Hartman, > but someone should, probably an interesting story > there. > >K. If the SMOT does actually work I can see theoretical reasons why it might. In effect one would be taking the ball around a generalized Carnot cycle with magnetic field stress as the analog of pressure and gravity as the analogue of temperature. I discussed the hierarchical nature of the Carnot cycle in one of my previous emails. If you think about it carefully, the magnetic field is stretching the ball horizontally and the gravitational field is stretching the ball vertically. =================== In Hoc Signo Vinces ;-) =================== Also, because the two effects are acting at right angles they are acting as virtually independent variables like finite x and y dimensions. I shall do as you suggest and look at Naudin's site more thoroughly. If the effect is real then it could depend on the orientation of the apparatus in relation to the "fixed stars" for the reasons discussed on Ing.Saviour's web-site some time ago. However, like the Wright brothers flight, it only needs one legitimate example for PoP. Cheers Frank Grimer P.S. I have just re-read your post above and realise that you make a very important observation: "Yet each ramp could also been seen to be adding a certain amount of energy, to be subtracted on the return trip." If orientation in space is important then it will be impossible to close the circle since energy will indeed be gained in one direction but lost in the reverse. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 21:13:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E4D5Gt029808; Fri, 13 May 2005 21:13:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E4D0L4029744; Fri, 13 May 2005 21:13:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:13:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Message from Ken Shoulders Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 00:15:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm just curious how he (they) are getting that weird discharge shape in the copper electrode. I've never seen anything like that before. I'm referring to that thing on page 7. Was that a rod that was blasted back? Or did it grow out of the electrode? The former seems reasonable to me, the latter is downright bizarre. K. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 11:50 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Message from Ken Shoulders In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 13 May 2005 11:13:46 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Subject: EVOs And The Hutchison Effect > >A paper by Ken Shoulders entitled "EVOs And The Hutchison Effect" will be >presented at the 2005 Conference on Cold Fusion to be held at MIT on May >21. A 1 MB .PDF file showing some of the graphics slides to be used in that >presentation can now be downloaded from: >http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ > >Ken > Now read http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m31728.html again. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 21:13:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E4DOGt030031; Fri, 13 May 2005 21:13:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E4DMaK030002; Fri, 13 May 2005 21:13:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:13:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001b01c5583b$3e2a1ff0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Name of the Game Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:12:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C55811.3EB959B0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C55811.3EB959B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C55811.3EB959B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C55811.3EB959B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHi Jones, We are in an ever increasing state of change in the world to which a = significant factor is the computer and its manifestations like the = internet , the X Box and an increase in worldwide scientific cumulative = understanding. I mentioned a tiny segment of change coming in mathematics wrought by = such seeming unrelated items like the XBox. Back in 1990, Rice University embarked on a " parallel computing" = project that has since moved on. The task was almost insurmountable in = 1990 yet today XBox and Game boy has some of the software completed to = handle parallel. The task is ,of course , to connect the software of 4 = computer integral to achieve " quadratic computing' rather than = parallel. Quantum computing has been mentioned ,however, this is an = imaginary concept whereas quadratics are now achievable with existing = software.. albeit in bits a pieces awaiting the math minds assmbling = such into useful tools. There are perhaps 25 or more persons in the world that are looking at = this very challenge in quadratic computing including young wizards as = young as 7 years old. The youth of today are subliminally aware of change and participate = willingly regardless of its true worth. This bothers me because it has = no base of goodness or decency. What is seen as a cultural gap is actually a restructuring of "classes". = The wealthy and educated are moving further apart into a " class" that = will take another generation to fully recognize.. yet it is presently = exemplified in legislative laws passed at the direction of paid = lobbyists. Not so much wealthy individuals as wealthy organizations and the = hierachy represented by the people that control them.. This is the new " = class " emerging. I describe these people as .. ones that have unlimited = wealth at their command without actually " owning " the wealth = themselves. Enron's leaders with Enron's resources at their command.. = soon became obsessed with the notion they "owned" the place and were = immune to law.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C55811.3EB959B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hi Jones,
 
We are in an ever increasing state of change in the world to which = a=20 significant factor is the computer and its manifestations like the=20 internet , the X Box and an increase in worldwide scientific = cumulative=20 understanding.
 
I mentioned a tiny segment of change coming in mathematics wrought = by such=20 seeming unrelated items like the XBox.
Back in 1990, Rice University embarked on a " parallel computing" = project=20 that has since moved on. The task was almost insurmountable in 1990 yet = today=20 XBox and Game boy has some of the software completed to handle parallel. = The=20 task is ,of course , to connect the software of 4 computer integral to = achieve "=20 quadratic computing' rather than parallel. Quantum computing has been = mentioned=20 ,however, this is an imaginary concept whereas quadratics are now = achievable=20 with existing software.. albeit in bits a pieces awaiting the math minds = assmbling such into useful tools.
 
There are perhaps 25 or more persons in the world that = are looking=20 at this very challenge in quadratic computing including =20 young wizards as young as 7 years old.
 
 The youth of today are subliminally aware of change and = participate=20 willingly regardless of its true worth. This bothers me because it has = no base=20 of goodness or decency.
 
What is seen as a cultural gap is actually a restructuring of=20 "classes". The wealthy and educated are moving further apart into a "=20 class"  that will take another generation to fully recognize.. yet = it is=20 presently exemplified in legislative laws passed at = the direction of=20 paid lobbyists.
 
Not so much wealthy individuals as wealthy organizations and the = hierachy=20 represented by the people that control them.. This is the new " class "=20 emerging. I describe these people as .. ones that have unlimited wealth = at their=20 command without actually " owning " the wealth themselves. Enron's=20 leaders with Enron's resources at their command.. soon  became = obsessed with the notion they "owned" the place and were immune to=20 law. 
 
Richard
 
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C55811.3EB959B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C55811.3EB959B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001601c5583b$27894730$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C55811.3EB959B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 22:01:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E50wGt019559; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:00:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E50uZH019538; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:00:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:00:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050514055542.0068f544 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:55:42 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: non-looping smot Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith, I have had a look at Emil Hartman's 1980 patent (US4215330) ================================================ http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?CY=ch&LG= fr&DB=EPD&PN=US4215330&ID=US+++4215330A1+I+ ================================================ and it appears from the drawing that instead of a pair of solid magnets Hartman used a series of small individual magnets. Now if you want to close the loop then the way to go would be to build a SMOT with many individual magnets forming a slight but definite curve. Two such curved SMOTS would prove the principle and give one the confidence to build the rest. As to where the energy comes from - presumably it comes from a very slight weakening of the magnetic field for each ascent of the ball. This would explain why for that apparatus which was mentioned in an earlier post in some museum or other, the thing stopped working after some given interval and the owner had to take it away to "recharge" the "permanent" magnets. Reminds me of the thread on absolute temperature. ;-) Permanent - but not permanently Permanent. Absolute - but not absolutely Absolute. If the above analysis is correct, SMOT may not be a source of energy but it would make a wonderful executive toy. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 22:03:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E53KGt020957; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:03:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E53Gb8020933; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:03:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:03:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009a01c55842$3b5e0370$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001b01c5583b$3e2a1ff0$0100007f xptower> Subject: Re: Name of the Game Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:03:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BlankRichard, "What is seen as a cultural gap is actually a restructuring of "classes". The wealthy and educated are moving further apart into a " class" that will take another generation to fully recognize.. " I think a more surprising societal change on the horizon, due to huge advances in computer power and artifical intelligence, will be that the "education" part of the class distinction equation will start to disappear. With even small wealth, and even if that derives from crime or luck, the 'undeservingly rich' individual will be able to have "instant" education, good taste and savoir faire. Tongue-tied Presidents will cease to be laughing stock with a built-in prompter - and so-on. Whether the particular 'undeservingly rich' individual can pull-off the rest of the impersonation and sharade is a different story - but many will. With a teraflop computer and any number of "expert system" software packages implantable, the street smart hustler will (theoretically) in a few years, be able to pass for a rocket scientist, brain surgeon or whatever is on his fantasy list... kinda like Billy Ray Valentine on steroids (you wont get that reference unless you are a movie-trivia freak). But one thing is for sure, the times, they are a-changin' ...as Bobby Zimmerman used to opine. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 22:10:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E5A8Gt024094; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:10:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E5A5Ve024067; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:10:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:10:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220055614595540 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 13, 2005 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:09:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8fadae28ba40132cb17be828cc9a3d6067ef9f80aaf77e5a4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.72.6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 5/13/2005 1:00:49 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 13, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 13 May 05 Washington, DC 1. VOODOO MEDICINE: TAI SOPHIA AND PENN MED FORM A PARTNERSHIP. Tai who? What's going on with the great Ivy League med schools? A study at Columbia claimed to show that the prayers of complete strangers halfway around the world increased pregnancy rates of fertility patients, who were not even aware of being prayed for. The study was revealed to be fraudulent. Somebody had to tell them this? http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn120304.cfm Harvard too has been embarrassed by ties to the wacky world of alternative medicine. Now, the oldest medical school in the nation, the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, is pandering to the public's obsession with mystical healing. Medical and nursing students at Penn will be able to earn a master's degree in Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) from Tai Sophia Institute. Tai Sophia began teaching acupuncture 30 years ago, but has since expanded into other "medical arts" that don't work. Two weeks ago, Tai Sophia sponsored a Deepak Chopra conference http://www.aps.org/WN/WN98/wn100998.cfm. Wayne Jonas, author of Healing with Homeopathy, is on the Board of Trustees. 2. ACUPUNCTURE: OR MAYBE YOU COULD JUST EAT A ALAPENO PEPPER. JAMA, May 4, reports a randomized, controlled trial comparing the effectiveness of acupuncture with sham acupuncture in treating migraine. There were 302 patients in the study. Acupuncture is widely touted for treating migraine, but in 12 sessions over 8 weeks, sham acupuncture, in which the needles are inserted in the "wrong" points, was just as effective as inserting them in the "correct" points. This should greatly simplify the training of acupuncture specialists. Just stick the damn needles anywhere. 3. NASA: GRIFFIN SAYS WE CAN'T DO EVERYTHING, AND HE'LL PROVE IT. The good news is that NASA is working on a shuttle mission to fix Hubble. Then we finish the space station and build a replacement for the shuttle. And then oops, that's it. We're out of money. We can keep an astronaut or two going in circles until we're ready to go back to the Moon, though I can't remember why it is we want to go back there. It means we'll have to give up the Space Interferometry and Terrestrial Planet Finder missions, the top missions looking for signs of extra-solar life. 4. PROLIFERATION: MAYBE THE N. KOREAN ARMY IS DIGGING LATRINES. After the weapons-of-mass-destruction fiasco in Iraq, warnings from intelligence agencies are harder to take seriously. It may be that Kim Jong Il, like Saddam, just wants to look dangerous. "Dig a few tunnels. If that doesn't do it, pull the fuel rods." 5. LOS ALAMOS: NANOS STEPS DOWN AND KUCKUCK IS INTERIM DIRECTOR. I can remember when the low turnover rate at Los Alamos was a matter of concern. Making a former admiral Director solved that. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 13 22:16:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4E5GAGt026901; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:16:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4E5G78U026875; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:16:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:16:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:15:50 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <200505132021.57381.knuke@sumosound.de> <004301c55802$650173a0$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <004301c55802$650173a0$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505140715.50815.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Jeff. The runaway events happened on the first model that I built. I did these runs in my kitchen less than a foot away from these radioactive tiles, but I had no clue that they were radioactive until later. While trying to get a subsequent model to do the runaway thing again, I came up with the crazy idea of lacing the water, thinking that it may have played a roll. I used the geiger counter quite a bit while wiping down the tiles, but didn't turn it on for the initial test run itself. I was in a hurry, and wanted to see what would happen. Now I know. This is all in the VG archives, if you want to download all of those huge files and run text searches. At Bill Beaty's website there used to be a photo of the first model, torn down, and sitting on my kitchen counter. One more word of warning though, if you go onto Bill Beaty's website, leave a trail of breadcrumbs or make bookmarks or something so that you don't get lost. Whenever I visit Bill's website, I always get lost for hours, if not days. It's pretty weird in there. Knuke Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 23:26 schrieb revtec: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Huffman" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:21 PM > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - > > I reread your article in 1995 vol. 1 , no. 1of IE which concluded with your > impending success. What happened? Didn't your next model work? I recall > knowing about your kitchen sheathed in yellow cake tiles, but can't recall > if you told me that or if it was mentioned in a subsequent article that I > am yet to rediscover. The implication was that the runaway operation was > possibly caused because the experiment was surrounded by radioactive walls. > I don't recall that you ever indicated that you used uranium laced water to > fuel the turbine. Was it during the runaway describe in the article that > you suffered injury or was it during a later experiment? > > Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 04:33:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EBXNGt019706; Sat, 14 May 2005 04:33:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EBXLRY019683; Sat, 14 May 2005 04:33:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 04:33:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Washington State Solar Bill Signed Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:33:16 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20050513203304.92693.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050513203304.92693.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505141333.16661.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Nick, I wasn't aware that RWE owned Schott. RWE is mostly known as a telco here, but they also have holdings in the electrical power industry as well, I think. I have a couple of friends who work for them. They were one of the first to have a license for that technology that allows broadband digital information to be transmitted over the powerlines. I don't think that it is available where I live, but definitely is in use in the major market areas like Berlin and Hamburg. I've read good reports about it. Schott is mostly known for their hightemp glasswear. They make stove-tops, etc.. It is a sign of the times that I have to go to a Yank newsgroup to read from a Brit about what is happening in Krautville. The Global Market, and the Global Information Age seem to be a necessary match. Cheers, Knuke Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 22:33 schrieb Nick Reiter: I think the big PV players > in Germany are RWE Schott (with a Si plant in > Billerica, Mass) and Q-Cells. > > NR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 06:28:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EDSQGt014061; Sat, 14 May 2005 06:28:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EDSPww014048; Sat, 14 May 2005 06:28:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 06:28:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c55888$c994dce0$88027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20050514045646.0068fbe0 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: non-looping smot Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 08:28:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank, When I consider a tool for analysis of the SMOT , I keep returning to the thought of quadratic computing. Such a system for mathematical modeling would permit the answer to be loaded and the formula derived.. hehe.. the ultimate in " reverse engineering". hmmm,, not so far out ..considering the 3D graphics software available. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 11:56 PM Subject: RE: non-looping smot > At 06:48 pm 13-05-05 -0400, Keith wrote: > >> I hadn't really thought of that...a funny image, that. >> >> All the same, it seems clear from experiment that >> multiple ramps can be joined in a line. Perhaps as >> you say, after many such ramps the ball will peter >> out, hooking somewhere between the exit and entrance. >> It would seem like frictional losses would mount >> as you progressed down the line. Yet each ramp >> could also been seen to be adding a certain amount >> of energy, to be subtracted on the return trip. >> >> It'd really be better to focus on one ramp, and the >> critical return circuit. I suggested to Greg, with >> the usual utter lack of acknowledgement, that >> this would be his unique piece of IP to be patented. >> The "heart and soul" of the SMOT. The ramp had >> already been done by someone else, as I mentioned. >> He claimed to have not followed up on Emil Hartman, >> but someone should, probably an interesting story >> there. >> >>K. > > > If the SMOT does actually work I can see theoretical > reasons why it might. In effect one would be taking > the ball around a generalized Carnot cycle with > magnetic field stress as the analog of pressure > and gravity as the analogue of temperature. I discussed > the hierarchical nature of the Carnot cycle in > one of my previous emails. > > If you think about it carefully, the magnetic field is > stretching the ball horizontally and the gravitational > field is stretching the ball vertically. > > =================== > In Hoc Signo Vinces ;-) > =================== > > Also, because the two effects are acting at right > angles they are acting as virtually independent > variables like finite x and y dimensions. > > I shall do as you suggest and look at Naudin's > site more thoroughly. > > If the effect is real then it could depend on > the orientation of the apparatus in relation to > the "fixed stars" for the reasons discussed on > Ing.Saviour's web-site some time ago. > > However, like the Wright brothers flight, it only > needs one legitimate example for PoP. > > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > P.S. I have just re-read your post above and realise > that you make a very important observation: > > "Yet each ramp could also been seen > to be adding a certain amount of > energy, to be subtracted on the > return trip." > > If orientation in space is important then it will be > impossible to close the circle since energy will > indeed be gained in one direction but lost in the > reverse. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 06:51:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EDp8Gt028194; Sat, 14 May 2005 06:51:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EDp4MB028154; Sat, 14 May 2005 06:51:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 06:51:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42860272.4040705 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:51:46 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Name of the Game References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428558A1.4000201@bellsouth.net> <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: revtec wrote: > <>I got a reply from Mr. Clark to a letter I sent him around 1965 in > which he > compared "Childhood's End" to a previous work "City and the Stars". > > I don't recall that he said anything profound, but if I can figure where I > put it, I can scan it or transcribe it for anyone who wishes to see it. Yes. I believe all here would like to see it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 07:20:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EEKHGt014230; Sat, 14 May 2005 07:20:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EEKE1o014210; Sat, 14 May 2005 07:20:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:20:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42860948.5090702 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:20:56 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Name of the Game References: <001b01c5583b$3e2a1ff0$0100007f xptower> <009a01c55842$3b5e0370$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <009a01c55842$3b5e0370$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > With a teraflop computer and any number of "expert system" software > packages implantable, All that needs to be implanted is a WiMAX (IEEE 802.16) broadband neural adapter. The network will soon be ubiquitous via these new wireless standards. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 07:45:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EEikGt031945; Sat, 14 May 2005 07:44:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EEiiFQ031916; Sat, 14 May 2005 07:44:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:44:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004101c55893$74db67e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001b01c5583b$3e2a1ff0$0100007f xptower> <009a01c55842$3b5e0370$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42860948.5090702@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Name of the Game Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:44:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" >> With a teraflop computer and any number of "expert system" >> software packages implantable, > All that needs to be implanted is a WiMAX (IEEE 802.16) > broadband neural adapter. The network will soon be ubiquitous > via these new wireless standards. Good point ... except for security reasons ... VIPs would probably go with a "less spatial" more secure version, which means that individual would likely still need to carry some minature appliance to secure the most sensitve data and programs - since few codes will be unbreakable even in Murphy's future world...which appliance (like the Johnny Mnemonic variety) will likely be incorportated as a "fashion" accessory.... adding new meaning to "tastefully accessorized," shall we say. Since the neural adapters for vision will likely be the last interface to be developed, (due to medical liability issues, if nothing else) then an obvious choice for a working interface between an individual and his "alter-ego" son-of-xbox-mainframe (which can be located anywhere) is reading glasses. We have seen these glasses, indistinguishable from the normal variety, but with built in cameras, microphones and see-through computer screens in the James Bond and "Mission Impossible" genre of cinema - and one suspects that there are some prototypes in laboratories now (especially in labs in 5-sided buildings). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 08:49:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EFnOGt010123; Sat, 14 May 2005 08:49:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EFnL5S010093; Sat, 14 May 2005 08:49:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 08:49:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42861E30.4030408 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:50:08 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Name of the Game References: <001b01c5583b$3e2a1ff0$0100007f xptower> <009a01c55842$3b5e0370$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42860948.5090702@bellsouth.net> <004101c55893$74db67e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <004101c55893$74db67e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > and one suspects that there are some prototypes in laboratories now > (especially in labs in 5-sided buildings). WEARWARE! This company might be a good investment: http://www.kopin.com/products/cyberdisplay_products.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 09:04:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EG4TGt017712; Sat, 14 May 2005 09:04:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EG4RGh017684; Sat, 14 May 2005 09:04:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:04:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c5589e$dfe48660$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428558A1.4000201@bellsouth.net> <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <42860272.4040705@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Name of the Game Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:06:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Name of the Game > Yes. I believe all here would like to see it. > > Here's the transcript from 1966: Dear Jeffrey, Thank you for your letter of 8 Feb. I can only reply briefly as I am here to complete the novel 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY which Stanley Kubric is already filming in England. (CINERAMA, color, for release early 67). Frankly, I can't remember all the motives behind THE CITY AND THE STARS which I began (in the earlier version AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT - Gnome Press) in 1937.) And I've written so many books since then that I don't remember it very well! There was a more concious attempt at a Utopia in CHILDHOOD'S END - the second part. Incidently you must also read Huxley's last novel, ISLAND (patterned to some extent on Ceylon.) I don't believe any society can be static - certainly not for as long as I postulated in CITY! For my more recent views, see PROFILES OF THE FUTURE. I really wrote CITY for fun, as a voyage of exploration. Any philosophy is incidental! All good wishes, Arthur C Clarke Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 09:11:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EGAnGt021120; Sat, 14 May 2005 09:10:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EGAkT0021089; Sat, 14 May 2005 09:10:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:10:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050514161042.00976b38 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:10:42 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: non-looping smot Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have been going through the posts on the Prometheus Yahoo site and I came across this one from a "true believer", to wit, Dave Squires, which I thought was a good basis for further discussion. ============================================= I already know that OU is real. There is no need to convince me with this device. I am already convinced and have seen it on the bench with different devices in both solid state and rotary forms. It has also been proven in 3D and 2D magnetics simulations. I also understand much of the principles behind creating energy gain. This version of the SMOT is but one. But it has a very meager gain. The gain mechanism is the electron momentum exchange between the magnets and the iron in the steel ball. Energy is added to the ball via electron momentum exchange where the energy in the magnets is added to the electrons in the ball. Typically, there is a clawback mechanism that takes back as much as was put in that we usually call magnetic back-drag. The trick is in altering the balance of that clawback mechanism to create an asymmetry such that some remains and the magnets use their own ZPE energy restoration mechanism rather than the easier clawback. You are trying to do this by having the ball exit at a lower magnetic force point so that it retains most of the energy of momentum added by the magnets. Then you are adding a measuring system to show that it's real. I believe it. No need to prove it to me. But it's a small gain in this case. Dave ============================================= Now being a "concrete head" I see the energy tied up in the magnets as very fine scale positive and negative strain energy. In effect a magnet is a strain energy battery or spring. If you want a macro-scale example of positive and negative strain energy storage I can think of none better than toughened glass where the strain energy in input by the differential cooling of the surface and core. This energy is released explosively when a crack reaches the core in a high state of tension and result in the sudden overall crazing of the glass pane. Now the strain energy in a magnet is analogous but on a much, much, much finer scale. The finer the scale, the more strain energy one can pump into a material. Energy is akin to information. The higher the resolution, the more potential information. At school I was taught not to drop permanent magnets coz they loose their magnetism if they are banged about. Now the action of the ball will be to stretch send the magnets around a teeny weeny hysteresis loop and slowly draw out their strain energy in the form of kinetic energy. The crucial question is, do (as Dave claims) "the magnets use their own ZPE energy restoration mechanism rather than the easier clawback." It sounds plausible. What does our resident magneto head think. Over to you, Horselover Fats. I'll now get back to reading the rest of the posts on the Prometheus Group's site. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 09:17:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EGGYGt024511; Sat, 14 May 2005 09:16:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EGGTf3024420; Sat, 14 May 2005 09:16:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:16:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005901c558a0$43a25190$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: funding R&D Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:16:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An inventive way to fund your LENR research: http://tinyurl.com/c6cuc or http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14431&item=6530279526&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 09:43:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EGhUGt008000; Sat, 14 May 2005 09:43:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EGhTOb007986; Sat, 14 May 2005 09:43:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:43:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:43:55 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Name of the Game Message-ID: <9518875.1116067435 localhost> In-Reply-To: <010201c557e7$96c1eac0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <010201c557e7$96c1eac0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --On Friday, May 13, 2005 11:14 AM -0700 Jones Beene wrote: > The name of the game these days is CHANGE. Change seems to be "in the > wind" in 2005. > Jones is right on about gaming being a huge industry. It takes in more money every year than Hollywood, and is more reliably profitable. The newest and most demanding games help drive improvements in processors, graphics cards and other hardware. He's also right about the how quickly communication technology is changing. In the next 5 years, we're going to have devices as described. A palm pilot, cell phone, music player, portable tv, video game console, camera and more all in one. It's going to be really cool. Where I trhink he is wrong is that this is going to mean massive change to society. I don't think so. People will still interact roughly as they do now. We're not going to give up our individuality and join the collective just because we've got really cool cell phones. Social change does not occure as fast as technological change. Not even close. 30 years ago people would have had a hard time imagining what today's technology would look like. But society is virtually unchanged except for the increased political power of the religious wingnuts.. I also think he *way* over estimates the ease with which one can write software that seems human. It would be a Nobel-prize worthy feat if one could create an interactive answering machine which could reliably fool people into thinking it was you. And even if it could be built, I'm not sure that there would be a huge market for it. One one hand, most everyone's got a cell phone, so answering machines (and the land lines they're tied to) are a passe, and certainly will become more so. And also I doubt people are intersted in owning an answering machine that talks with people. It basically performs the function of taking a message, and I don't see a really interactive one as being more than a novelty. Jones's thesis about becoming man-machine hybrids rests on being able to make computers "think" which we're not much closer to now than we were when those super computers were taking up whole wings of a university buildings. Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 10:08:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EH8ZGt021501; Sat, 14 May 2005 10:08:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EH8WY6021455; Sat, 14 May 2005 10:08:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:08:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006201c558a7$8bcc1e40$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428558A1.4000201@bellsouth.net> <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <42860272.4040705@bellsouth.net> <002301c5589e$dfe48660$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> Subject: New Name of the Game = "xtopia"? Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:08:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4AzaOC.A.IPF.OCjhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "revtec" quoting A.C.C.'s 1966 letter: > There was a more conscious attempt at a Utopia in CHILDHOOD'S > END - the second part. Incidentally you must also read Huxley's > last novel, ISLAND(patterned to some extent on Ceylon.) > I don't believe any society can be static - certainly not for as > long as I postulated in CITY! For my more recent views, see > PROFILES OF THE FUTURE. >I really wrote CITY for fun, as a voyage of exploration. Any >philosophy is incidental! First Point. This may not be the first time that some book or work of art, ostensibly created for "fun," and with "philosophy" relegated to incidental, will be remembered by posterity primarily for its philosophical meaning. "Through the Looking Glass" comes to mind as another, as does "The Matrix"... Second Point: I think ACC was going "downhill" and at a rapid speed with "Profiles", which is scarcely worth a mention, certaninly not a read. To paraphrase one reviewer: It is confused mixture of propaganda and techno-utopianism which makes depressing reading compared to the fiction. Clarke, though, has never been afraid of sounding overly naďve when overtaken by enthusiasm for the new and unexpected. But when a distinguished and elderly futurologist says that predictions of the future are only provisional, he is almost certainly right. If he says that the opinions expressed "are not my own," he is almost certainly wrong, and if he hints that his predictions are to be taken seriously, he is almost certainly not speculating wildly enough. Third Point: Realizing that more than a few readers of vortex probably think that I have gone way overboard with lavish aggrandizement of the "ulimate meaning" behind the X-box 360, which after all, is "only a toy"?... err, despite it being a teraflop-capable computer which will cost ~$300 for something that could easily have sold for 10,000 times more than that just seven years ago... hey I realize its limitations, and that we are not comparing apples-to-apples (or is that Apples-to-Crays) but I am looking at it in the context of being a stepping stone, and a giant leap to an immediate future - where as a small item which will only get smaller and cheaper (i..e the "sons-of xbox) to the point where a teraflop computer can be dedicated to such things as SR-P-IR which is "speech recognition"- "parsing"- "intelligent response" and pass the Turing Test as if it were some kind of juvenile joke... "are we there yet?"... giving us the capability of replacing/repatriating millions of boring jobs which have "outsourced" with a machine which will cost less than the monthly salary in India.... not to mention the further direction of this trend... whether it be towards heaven or hell, utopia or xtopia. At any rate my new (kinda new, but already spoken for) word of the week is XTOPIA which is to be defined as the real "new world order" in which machine intelligence rules. Whether or not humans will still remain in ultimate control after xtopia sets in (which is inevitable) - so as to make 'xptopia' and 'utopia' synonymous, rather than scary antonyms... that decision is still within the range of our group "free will" as a both a society... and...yup... as a dominant species in the new world pecking order. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 10:29:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EHT8Gt031368; Sat, 14 May 2005 10:29:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EHT5Wj031336; Sat, 14 May 2005 10:29:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:29:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4286358F.2090508 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:29:51 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Name of the Game References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428558A1.4000201@bellsouth.net> <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <42860272.4040705@bellsouth.net> <002301c5589e$dfe48660$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <002301c5589e$dfe48660$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks, Jeff! Sir Clarke wrote: >Any philosophy >is incidental! > How disappointing! :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 11:50:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EInvGt009265; Sat, 14 May 2005 11:49:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EIntrA009240; Sat, 14 May 2005 11:49:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:49:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42864882.1030301 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 14:50:42 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: funding R&D References: <005901c558a0$43a25190$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <005901c558a0$43a25190$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > An inventive way to fund your LENR research: > http://tinyurl.com/c6cuc > > or > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14431&item=6530279526&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > The seller seems to make a nefarious statement in #3: "Zero Point Energy (ZPE) is a hot topic in theoretical physics today. One prototype operated under very specific protocol will produce a radiant energy unheard of by National Science Foundation physicists, NSF for short. I believe this unique radiant energy is ZPE, however none of the scientists I have spoken with have ever physically encountered or measured ZPE - because they cannot produce it - they can only theorize as to its existence. I have the proof, each and every time that specific protocol is enacted. Whatever the energy is, it radiates omnidirectionally from the plasma. There was one Russian scientist named Professor Alexander Chernetski that is reported to have invented a high frequency plasma device that took an input energy and produced several times the output energy. This could have been ZPE, however - about 6 months after Dr. Harold (Hal) Puthoff received his personal demonstration, Alexander Chernetski suddenly passed away." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 11:58:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EIwKGt013576; Sat, 14 May 2005 11:58:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EIwIiP013550; Sat, 14 May 2005 11:58:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:58:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42864A7A.6040103 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 14:59:06 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Name of the Game References: <010201c557e7$96c1eac0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <9518875.1116067435@localhost> In-Reply-To: <9518875.1116067435 localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ron Wormus wrote: > Jones's thesis about becoming man-machine hybrids rests on being able > to make computers "think" which we're not much closer to now than > we were when those super computers were taking up whole wings of a > university buildings. There's quite an incentive for imitating man: http://i-newswire.com/pr19809.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 12:25:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EJPEGt031219; Sat, 14 May 2005 12:25:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EJPBwv031193; Sat, 14 May 2005 12:25:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:25:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428650C4.6010606 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:25:56 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Name of the Game = "xtopia"? References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428558A1.4000201@bellsouth.net> <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <42860272.4040705@bellsouth.net> <002301c5589e$dfe48660$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <006201c558a7$8bcc1e40$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <006201c558a7$8bcc1e40$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-LROAC.A.TnH.WClhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > First Point. This may not be the first time that some book or work of > art, ostensibly created for "fun," and with "philosophy" relegated to > incidental, will be remembered by posterity primarily for its > philosophical meaning. "Through the Looking Glass" comes to mind as > another, as does "The Matrix"... Of course, the gnostic philosophy of the red pill is fully intentional. Doctorial theses have been written on such. A nice eval: http://www.leaderu.com/popculture/gnosticmatrix.html > Whether or not humans will still remain in ultimate control after > xtopia sets in (which is inevitable) Brings to mind the last scene of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" where Klaatu explained that they created the race of robots to police organics! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 12:30:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EJUSGt001305; Sat, 14 May 2005 12:30:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EJUNLo001254; Sat, 14 May 2005 12:30:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:30:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428651FE.5040708 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:31:10 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gamesters References: <20050514181544.91204.qmail web60316.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050514181544.91204.qmail web60316.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nick Reiter wrote: > <>Ponder this... If you don't have time now, just bookmark this page: http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/pearsontheory/consciousness.htm that I posted entitled "Strange GUT". Read it when you have some time. This grand unification theory explains particle/wave duality and most of what you spoke of in your post. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 11:16:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4EIFvGt023092; Sat, 14 May 2005 11:15:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4EIFtjR023066; Sat, 14 May 2005 11:15:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:15:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=v2pBc7IPIkzzF0y7slhQl1LT+Pd7yt7QpwdDwfgxnmINibR2KHkzAnIyaW4ATPRgz3cvmzygL0Y1aaEi3DaEMn1fCgzuw8xix2OfN02vADQa/eon80qeOwCUa9dp0CBowKJK3RrRx6EeQaAbG6fAFWi5oG++Si1ngIaMbtEdLqM= ; Message-ID: <20050514181544.91204.qmail web60316.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:15:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Gamesters To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <9yxGlD.A.RoF.aBkhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends12 Status: RO X-Status: Ponder this... Go back to the possibility that Jung only scratched the surface with his description of the Collective Unconscious, and that the CU is already analagous to the internet, with every human having a wireless link that 99.999% never have the faintest hint exists. It opens a universe of futher analogues. Consider instances of demonic possession, abducting aliens, monster sightings, UFOs, ghosts...maybe not so much rogue algorithms ala The Matrix, but more like viruses. Some people, by virtue of their particular psychology or organic factors have breaches in their anti-virus protection. Sure, all of us human PCs have potential for software bugs and bad memory locations that send us to the doc or a shrink. But maybe the exotic stuff - even conditions like MPD - are related to pathologies from "on-line". Consider the paradox of fights over reincarnation memories in Hindu culture, where both young Ajit and Pradesh have clear memories they tell their parents about, having had a previous life as a recently deceased priest in the next town or some such. Were BOTH the boys the same guy in a previous life? Or did they both just happen to download from the CU some of the memories / facets of old dead Raj's life. Heaven knows (no pun)that nigh-embarrassing reports I posted on-line 14 years ago about alien abductions are STILL being copied and re-posted, long after I removed them from my computer. Crap lives forever. In the human Collective Unconscious "bio-matrix", grey aliens, skinwalkers, mothmen, Satanic Ritual Abuse events, etc are analagous to viruses. Greater belief systems and religions could be analagous to domains or web rings. Islam, or Roman Catholicism, or Hindu domains, with their attendant rules and presumed deities, are very big and have many members - on-line in both a conscious and unconscious way. An obscure animist cult practiced on some island in the South Pacific 1500 years ago is probably long gone from the CU, or exists only as a miniscule file. Consider it. Every human being with a home page of their own that most never consciously check the contents of. And when you die? The hard drive crashes, the power supply fries, and you end up in a landfill. But maybe if you lived right and died right, and had the right files of an uncorrupted sort... the particular domain you were unknowingly a member of did an auto-upload. Or maybe there is an auto-upload function in all of us as an add-on. Jesus saves?!? How literally true maybe. So if the Collective Unconscious bio matrix contains the Happy Hunting Grounds, Heaven, Hell, Elysium, Land o' the Dead (where Jerry lives on) I guess we are hunky dory until the last human being dies...for when he or she passes, all the Gods and heavens and hells and data of the Collective Unconscious Internet - five million years or more, will pass into oblivion as well. Unless some real aliens or gods come along to do a master upload :) It makes a strong case also for taking care of our planet and our species. Of course this implies that one of the most overwhelming discoveries in human biology/neurology has yet to be made. If all of this is so... then what structure in the human brain is the wireless link? The Collective Unconscious, like the Internet, has no one seat or central location - being distributed information. But the Internet and all connections into it rely on hardware of a very specific sort. In the case of the CU, I'd wager this hardware is chemical-quantum, and coded with DNA somehow. Otherwise I think we would have all sorts of terrifying bleedovers from the Raccoon Matrix or Dog Matrix or the very silly Koala Matrix. Maybe its spintronic in nature. If the mergence of Xbox into man continues as it likely will, there may come a point where the two human neural continua -old and new- will begin to REALLY cross-talk, not just cross reference through the middle man of conscious thought. thpooky. NR --- Jones Beene wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > > >> With a teraflop computer and any number of > "expert system" > >> software packages implantable, > > > All that needs to be implanted is a WiMAX (IEEE > 802.16) > > broadband neural adapter. The network will soon > be ubiquitous > > via these new wireless standards. > > Good point ... except for security reasons ... VIPs > would probably > go with a "less spatial" more secure version, which > means that > individual would likely still need to carry some > minature > appliance to secure the most sensitve data and > programs - since > few codes will be unbreakable even in Murphy's > future > world...which appliance (like the Johnny Mnemonic > variety) will > likely be incorportated as a "fashion" accessory.... > adding new > meaning to "tastefully accessorized," shall we say. > > Since the neural adapters for vision will likely be > the last > interface to be developed, (due to medical liability > issues, if > nothing else) then an obvious choice for a working > interface > between an individual and his "alter-ego" > son-of-xbox-mainframe > (which can be located anywhere) is reading glasses. > We have seen > these glasses, indistinguishable from the normal > variety, but with > built in cameras, microphones and see-through > computer screens in > the James Bond and "Mission Impossible" genre of > cinema - and one > suspects that there are some prototypes in > laboratories now > (especially in labs in 5-sided buildings). > > Jones > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 16:43:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ENh9Gt030154; Sat, 14 May 2005 16:43:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ENh3hV030088; Sat, 14 May 2005 16:43:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:43:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UVqSvnG4m9absCZ8EGBsCGv3TfZAhGqXy+8emzlVlQOxXiC+pUHfW5/IvQwX0kf5KYe727JUcKbd983AWtiEVfPY12DYFr9UFWJ9bXjuQLgBegw30iVk9LPI4kLcLsoEqbMQ822CFTfLdyyYjyHpX5hcPSylNwTRDtWyxWz/I24= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:42:54 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gamesters In-Reply-To: <20050514181544.91204.qmail web60316.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050514181544.91204.qmail web60316.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4ENgxGt029924 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: very very similar to a series of thoughts and beliefs ive been working on for years. but. where is this "network". what is it composed of? what is the linking mechanism? are psychic and empathic people merely able to make better use of it? i personally think its em based somehow, and thus, likely not requiring working human minds to keep it alive. although, an em pulse would possibly effect it? there are instances of "psychics" having gone to places where nuke tests were done, and reffering to the utter emptyness of the place. On 5/14/05, Nick Reiter wrote: > Ponder this... > > Go back to the possibility that Jung only scratched > the surface with his description of the Collective > Unconscious, and that the CU is already analagous to > the internet, with every human having a wireless link > that 99.999% never have the faintest hint exists. It > opens a universe of futher analogues. Consider > instances of demonic possession, abducting aliens, > monster sightings, UFOs, ghosts...maybe not so much > rogue algorithms ala The Matrix, but more like > viruses. Some people, by virtue of their particular > psychology or organic factors have breaches in their > anti-virus protection. Sure, all of us human PCs have > potential for software bugs and bad memory locations > that send us to the doc or a shrink. But maybe the > exotic stuff - even conditions like MPD - are related > to pathologies from "on-line". > > Consider the paradox of fights over reincarnation > memories in Hindu culture, where both young Ajit and > Pradesh have clear memories they tell their parents > about, having had a previous life as a recently > deceased priest in the next town or some such. Were > BOTH the boys the same guy in a previous life? Or did > they both just happen to download from the CU some of > the memories / facets of old dead Raj's life. Heaven > knows (no pun)that nigh-embarrassing reports I posted > on-line 14 years ago about alien abductions are STILL > being copied and re-posted, long after I removed them > from my computer. Crap lives forever. > > In the human Collective Unconscious "bio-matrix", grey > aliens, skinwalkers, mothmen, Satanic Ritual Abuse > events, etc are analagous to viruses. Greater belief > systems and religions could be analagous to domains or > web rings. Islam, or Roman Catholicism, or Hindu > domains, with their attendant rules and presumed > deities, are very big and have many members - on-line > in both a conscious and unconscious way. An obscure > animist cult practiced on some island in the South > Pacific 1500 years ago is probably long gone from the > CU, or exists only as a miniscule file. Consider it. > Every human being with a home page of their own that > most never consciously check the contents of. And > when you die? > > The hard drive crashes, the power supply fries, and > you end up in a landfill. > > But maybe if you lived right and died right, and had > the right files of an uncorrupted sort... the > particular domain you were unknowingly a member of did > an auto-upload. Or maybe there is an auto-upload > function in all of us as an add-on. Jesus saves?!? > How literally true maybe. > > So if the Collective Unconscious bio matrix contains > the Happy Hunting Grounds, Heaven, Hell, Elysium, Land > o' the Dead (where Jerry lives on) I guess we are > hunky dory until the last human being dies...for when > he or she passes, all the Gods and heavens and hells > and data of the Collective Unconscious Internet - five > million years or more, will pass into oblivion as > well. Unless some real aliens or gods come along to > do a master upload :) It makes a strong case also for > taking care of our planet and our species. > > Of course this implies that one of the most > overwhelming discoveries in human biology/neurology > has yet to be made. If all of this is so... then what > structure in the human brain is the wireless link? > The Collective Unconscious, like the Internet, has no > one seat or central location - being distributed > information. But the Internet and all connections > into it rely on hardware of a very specific sort. In > the case of the CU, I'd wager this hardware is > chemical-quantum, and coded with DNA somehow. > Otherwise I think we would have all sorts of > terrifying bleedovers from the Raccoon Matrix or Dog > Matrix or the very silly Koala Matrix. Maybe its > spintronic in nature. > > If the mergence of Xbox into man continues as it > likely will, there may come a point where the two > human neural continua -old and new- will begin to > REALLY cross-talk, not just cross reference through > the middle man of conscious thought. > > thpooky. > > NR > > --- Jones Beene wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Terry Blanton" > > > > >> With a teraflop computer and any number of > > "expert system" > > >> software packages implantable, > > > > > All that needs to be implanted is a WiMAX (IEEE > > 802.16) > > > broadband neural adapter. The network will soon > > be ubiquitous > > > via these new wireless standards. > > > > Good point ... except for security reasons ... VIPs > > would probably > > go with a "less spatial" more secure version, which > > means that > > individual would likely still need to carry some > > minature > > appliance to secure the most sensitve data and > > programs - since > > few codes will be unbreakable even in Murphy's > > future > > world...which appliance (like the Johnny Mnemonic > > variety) will > > likely be incorportated as a "fashion" accessory.... > > adding new > > meaning to "tastefully accessorized," shall we say. > > > > Since the neural adapters for vision will likely be > > the last > > interface to be developed, (due to medical liability > > issues, if > > nothing else) then an obvious choice for a working > > interface > > between an individual and his "alter-ego" > > son-of-xbox-mainframe > > (which can be located anywhere) is reading glasses. > > We have seen > > these glasses, indistinguishable from the normal > > variety, but with > > built in cameras, microphones and see-through > > computer screens in > > the James Bond and "Mission Impossible" genre of > > cinema - and one > > suspects that there are some prototypes in > > laboratories now > > (especially in labs in 5-sided buildings). > > > > Jones > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 18:41:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4F1fQGt029165; Sat, 14 May 2005 18:41:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4F1fMIg029107; Sat, 14 May 2005 18:41:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:41:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: Message from Ken Shoulders Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:41:09 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 15 May 2005 01:41:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4F1fEGt028852 Resent-Message-ID: <__nk1.A.hGH.BjqhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Sat, 14 May 2005 00:15:35 -0400: Hi, [snip] >I'm just curious how he (they) are getting that weird >discharge shape in the copper electrode. I've never seen >anything like that before. I'm referring to that thing >on page 7. Was that a rod that was blasted back? If you look closely at the bottom of it, you can still see the remains of a small sphere, though there appears to be more metal present than would fit in a sphere. Perhaps the remains of the sphere shrunk? I must admit however to being a little wary of this whole thing. If true, it is a major discovery, however I'm curious why this sort of thing hasn't turned up previously during heavy arc welding. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 20:24:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4F3NoGt025629; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:23:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4F3NaI6025479; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:23:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:23:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:22:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4283FA24.6030001@bellsouth.net> <003b01c5575b$e37a2300$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42841BD0.1010206@bellsouth.net> <006401c55770$75ad6a20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007501c55773$75605430$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007501c55773$75605430$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 15 May 2005 03:22:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4F3NSGt025312 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 12 May 2005 21:23:04 -0700: Hi, [snip] >The natural reactor at Oklo occurred 2 million years ago when all >the uranium on earth was of significantly higher enrichment then >it is now. According to http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/centre/waisrc/OKLO/When/When.html, this was 2 billion (not million) years ago, and the U235% then would have been about 7.9% if I did the sums right. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 20:31:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4F3UnGt030058; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:30:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4F3Uf5Q029960; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:30:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:30:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:29:41 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <86gd81lvj7gr3mc5h2rbbptugmtjkpbuq6 4ax.com> References: <2.2.32.20050513162854.006a70f8 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050513162854.006a70f8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 15 May 2005 03:29:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4F3UXGt029799 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Grimer's message of Fri, 13 May 2005 16:28:54 +0000: Hi, [snip] >>That number is 137 BTW, not 127. 137 is approximately >> the inverse of the fine structure constant. > > >That's very interesting. Is that simply a co-incidence or is there >some theoretical reason why the number of collapses (which, of its >nature, has to be an integer, happens to be "approximately the >inverse of the fine structure constant". It's not a coincidence. It's the largest integer smaller than the inverse fine structure constant. The latter is important, because if the electron could shrink to exactly the inverse fine structure constant level, it would be traveling at the speed of light (in a circle), which is why the shrinkage is limited to that value. However If one takes into account relativistic increase in the mass of the electron, then the maximum shrinkage level is even less than 137. How much less depends on which model one adopts. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 20:35:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4F3ZFvM032673; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:35:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4F3ZCB2032615; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:35:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:35:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050514232557.0215f968 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 23:31:28 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: CF Colloquium with Tribute to Dr. Mallove - Final Program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Great news!! Because of the success of the program, the UPCOMING SYMPOSIUM on COLD FUSION at MIT, Cambridge Massachusetts The 2005 Cold Fusion and Clean Energy Colloquium with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove now is lengthened in time from 8:30 AM to 6 PM. The final program is at: http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html Revised Colloquium Schedule: Saturday, 5/21/05, Cold Fusion Session: 8:30 AM to 6 PM Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA Tribute to Dr. Mallove 10 AM - 3 PM Killian Room with Group Tribute at 11:30 AM Killian Room Colloquium Information More information, program, pre-registration information http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html Colloquium Announcement and Updates http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 20:50:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4F3o8vM008349; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:50:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4F3o4TF008311; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:50:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:50:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:49:47 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4283FA24.6030001@bellsouth.net> <003b01c5575b$e37a2300$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42841BD0.1010206@bellsouth.net> <006401c55770$75ad6a20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007501c55773$75605430$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 15 May 2005 03:49:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4F3nrvM008111 Resent-Message-ID: <6EzpqD.A.oBC.rbshCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sun, 15 May 2005 13:22:59 +1000: Oops, it looks like I didn't get the sums right. Try 3.8%. Hopefully better this time. [snip] >According to >http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/centre/waisrc/OKLO/When/When.html, >this was 2 billion (not million) years ago, and the U235% then >would have been about 7.9% if I did the sums right. > > >Regards, > > >Robin van Spaandonk > >All SPAM goes in the trash unread. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 14 21:15:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4F4FJvM020974; Sat, 14 May 2005 21:15:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4F4FGM4020943; Sat, 14 May 2005 21:15:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:15:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:15:08 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <41djhm$qvr7nv mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <41djhm$qvr7nv mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 15 May 2005 04:15:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4F4FDvM020894 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to 's message of Wed, 11 May 2005 17:29:20 -0400: Hi, [snip] >I gather there has been some speculation that much of the missing mass recently detected in our universe might turn out to be nothing more exotic than hydrinos floating about in the deep recesses of outer space. The That is Mills' contention. >implication is that this yet-to-be-detected state of matter does not tend to interact with other hydrinos nor other elements - except in special situations like the BLP catalysts. Actually according to Mills, the disproportionation reaction would allow hydrinos to react with one another. This implies as far as I can tell that the only reason they are still there, is that they are too widely dispersed to interact frequently. Personally, I think the entire model of the universe needs rebuilding from the ground up. There is almost nothing in modern cosmology that I would keep. The whole thing is a giant house of cards, with assumption resting upon assumption....etc. >All this, of course, remains highly debatable for now. Yes, but Mills' experimental results are interesting nevertheless. There does appear to be something going on that is definitely worthy of serious investigation. > >I gather that, so far, nobody has figured out a way to directly detect the existence of hydrinos. They are, after all, extremely tiny critters. Setting aside claims of recorded excess heat, the assumption that hydrinos exist appears to be built entirely on unique spectral analysis signatures and special hydride compounds that Mills claims to have manufactured. Why set aside the claims of excess heat? BTW there are also the plasma experiments, where a plasma is created with extraordinary ease when a Mills catalyst is present. [snip] >Too bad there doesn't appear to be an academic interest (perhaps on the graduate level?) in devising experiments that might help prove or disprove in the direct sense the existence of hydrinos. Indeed. > >This does bring up many questions pertaining to whether it is possible for hydrinos to combine with other elements and produce unique alloys with unusual characteristics (i.e. the theorized BLP battery). Again, I get the impression that hydrinos don't interact, perhaps because they are situated down in a deep energy well making it difficult to combine covalently or ionicaly with other elements. Hydrinohydride (the negative ion of the hydrino) should form plenty of ionic compounds. >Obviously, Mill's special hydride compounds are claims to the effect that there may be circumstances where combinations ARE possible. See above. > >From my perspective there remain many unanswered questions making it difficult to prove that they really exist. As long as considerable independent confirmation is not attempted, it will remain questionable, unless an actual commercial product emerges in the mean time. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 00:39:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4F7cxkL029939; Sun, 15 May 2005 00:39:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4F7cubl029917; Sun, 15 May 2005 00:38:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 00:38:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 02:39:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: (OT) funny cartoon Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Resent-Message-ID: <-OHzxC.A.ZTH.PyvhCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Homeland Security http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.05.08.BillofGoods-X.gif From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 06:37:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4FDbBkL014037; Sun, 15 May 2005 06:37:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4FDb520013985; Sun, 15 May 2005 06:37:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 06:37:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c55953$28eb3cf0$7e027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <003f01c55719$14177e10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4283FA24.6030001@bellsouth.net> <003b01c5575b$e37a2300$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42841BD0.1010206@bellsouth.net> <006401c55770$75ad6a20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007501c55773$75605430$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:36:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, There is a "belt " of hot water wells that traverse across Texas from Kilgore to Laredo. Many of these wells have a high H2S content . Along with the belt is lignite coal deposits. Yellowcake has been mined along the western extremity by Amoco in past years. Do you suppose we have a "natural" reaction taking place that results in the hot water ? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Fission 'diodes' and one-way criticality > In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 12 May 2005 21:23:04 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] >>The natural reactor at Oklo occurred 2 million years ago when all >>the uranium on earth was of significantly higher enrichment then >>it is now. > > According to > http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/centre/waisrc/OKLO/When/When.html, > this was 2 billion (not million) years ago, and the U235% then > would have been about 7.9% if I did the sums right. > > > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 07:59:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4FEwikL019461; Sun, 15 May 2005 07:58:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4FEwfek019429; Sun, 15 May 2005 07:58:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 07:58:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428763D1.4050205 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:59:29 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Nuclear Battery Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Did tritium suddenly become less expensive? http://www.livescience.com/technology/050513_new_battery.html "How it works The technology is called betavoltaics. It uses a silicon wafer to capture electrons emitted by a radioactive gas, such as tritium. It is similar to the mechanics of converting sunlight into electricity in a solar panel." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 08:10:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4FF9VkL024951; Sun, 15 May 2005 08:09:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4FF9NfM024866; Sun, 15 May 2005 08:09:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:09:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b3mb$10up5i1 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,109,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1106024001:sNHT13590752" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:08:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Robin van Spaandonk ... > It's not a coincidence. It's the largest integer smaller > than the inverse fine structure constant. The latter is > important, because if the electron could shrink to > exactly the inverse fine structure constant level, it > would be traveling at the speed of light (in a > circle), which is why the shrinkage is limited to that > value. > > However If one takes into account relativistic increase > in the mass of the electron, then the maximum shrinkage > level is even less than 137. How much less depends on > which model one adopts. Seems to me that the increase in mass implies that these theoretically tiniest of all hydrino species should be heavier than their cousins, especially hydrogen at its traditionally accepted ground state. Theoretically speaking, could the additional mass-weight of these exotic hydrinos (approaching the limit of 137) be measurable on a macro scale? I suspect this might be impossible simply because these hydrinos are so small that for all purposes they may tend to behave more like sub-atomic particles, meaning they can't be physically contained in the normal way. It's my understanding that a "circuitous" description of hydrogen transformed to Hydrino, transformed to neutron, and ultimately transformed back to hydrogen scenario shouldn't occur precisely because of the endless extraction of energy that would result. Instead of this scenario you and other hydrino theorists have speculated that fusion may be the more likely fate precisely because these tiny critters have shrunk to such a small diameter that statistically their chances of interacting with other hydrino nuclei have been greatly improved. While I understand, statistically speaking, why fusion may be more likely what I still question would be the ramifications that the energy well would have constructed around individual hydrinos. How would these energy wells play (or not play as the case might be) into the theorized fusion mechanism. Wouldn't they act as a formidable barrier to fusion that would have to be overcome IN ADDITION TO the well-understood column barrier? I was wondering if this energy well might ultimately cancel out any fusion advantage hydrinos might possess as a result of their smaller diameters. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 08:15:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4FFEhkL027642; Sun, 15 May 2005 08:14:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4FFE7Ih027289; Sun, 15 May 2005 08:14:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:14:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43ar6j$r9u3g2 mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,109,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="916393474:sNHT32252024" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:13:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Robin van Spaandonk ... > Actually according to Mills, the disproportionation > reaction would allow hydrinos to react with one another. > This implies as far as I can tell that the only reason > they are still there, is that they are too widely > dispersed to interact frequently. Personally, I think > the entire model of the universe needs rebuilding from > the ground up. There is almost nothing in modern > cosmology that I would keep. The whole thing is a giant > house of cards, with assumption resting upon > assumption....etc. > I may not have as thorough a mathematical background that the engineers and mad scientists within this creative group possess, but simply observing what has been discussed here (and over in the Hydrino Discussion group) it seems quite clear to me that what we have been dealing with could be describe more as a cultural struggle of philosophies that is in the process of being slowly dismantled - hopefully to be eventually replaced with more practical models. It has become disappointingly clear to me as I've gotten older that politics and cultural entrenchment play greater roles than I wish they did in the advancement of scientific understanding. I suspect the dismantling is likely to take decades. During my spare moments I've been watching a great DVD course on the "History of Science" purchased from The Teaching Company. (See: http://www.teach12.com/). It would be amusing to take an equivalent course a hundred years from now and hopefully uncover the ultimate fate (or fortune as the case may be) of Dr. Mills and his controversial CQM theories. I suspect some derivative, perhaps the Son of CQM may ultimately survive as a direct result of practical applications (based on SOCQM: Son-of-CQM) used in all sorts of consumer & industrial thingamajigs we can only dream of. "SOCQM to me!" Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 10:01:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4FH1GkL022774; Sun, 15 May 2005 10:01:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4FH19nL022715; Sun, 15 May 2005 10:01:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:01:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHsPWDn7IMd6O+LDCl5dsq2UjIPdVHqIPww== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.181] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:59:16 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Name of the Game X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050515.100001.15447.15151 webmail31.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 3:5:1418071851 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.171|webmail31.nyc.untd.com|outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My evaluation of this coming technology is the same as in the past." The smarter the computer becomes the dumer people become." We are setting ourselves up to be the perfect victims of the philophescy of the Taliban and Al-quida. All they will need to do is write a program in to this great internet network -with some safty regimes that it can't be erased - and soon they would be in control. That should take civilizatio back at least a thousand years.-- Hopefully it is a least a couple decades away.-Ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 10:35:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4FHYwkL016176; Sun, 15 May 2005 10:34:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4FHYtYm016154; Sun, 15 May 2005 10:34:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:34:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Message from Ken Shoulders Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:33:59 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin, Some quick sniffing around produced this site, http://www.proton21.com.ua/articles_en.html If you can find anything relating actual experimental proceduces, rather than results and sample analysis, please note it. I've never used copper as an electrode, as it tends to disintegrate with such ease that one ends up with a one shot spark gap. Perhaps if I did I would be more familiar with the destructive effects on the anode like what we see here. K. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 9:41 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Message from Ken Shoulders In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Sat, 14 May 2005 00:15:35 -0400: Hi, [snip] >I'm just curious how he (they) are getting that weird >discharge shape in the copper electrode. I've never seen >anything like that before. I'm referring to that thing >on page 7. Was that a rod that was blasted back? If you look closely at the bottom of it, you can still see the remains of a small sphere, though there appears to be more metal present than would fit in a sphere. Perhaps the remains of the sphere shrunk? I must admit however to being a little wary of this whole thing. If true, it is a major discovery, however I'm curious why this sort of thing hasn't turned up previously during heavy arc welding. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 12:28:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4FJS6kL016206; Sun, 15 May 2005 12:28:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4FJRpjf016045; Sun, 15 May 2005 12:27:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:27:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:24:56 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: 'energy hole' (Re: Mills_secret_) Message-ID: <20050515092456.GB828 genius.tao.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser , vortex-l eskimo.com References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <009f01c55596$9d9ec2d0$9c7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <009f01c55596$9d9ec2d0$9c7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 03:06:12PM -0400, Mike Carrell wrote: > > In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46-0400: > > >2) Isolated hydrogen atoms can be induced to 'shink' to lower states by > the proximity of catalyst atom(s) presenting an 'energy hole' of the right > value. Energy is transfered by a 'resonant transfer' mechanism which does > not involve radiation. This transfer is known in physics and chemistry in > other contexts. > > > > Since all matter is electromagnetic in nature, is must involve > > radiation in some form, though it may be near field rather than > > far field. > Has anyone proposed the mechanism for this in terms of a modification to the Lagrangian of the standard model? In this framework the energy must be exchanged by some force carrier boson; is Mill proposing that this is done by a virtual photon? JOe --=20 Josef Karthauser (joe tao.org.uk) http://www.josef-k.net/ FreeBSD (cvs meister, admin and hacker) http://www.uk.FreeBSD.org/ Physics Particle Theory (student) http://www.pact.cpes.sussex.ac.uk/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D An eclectic mix of fact an= d theory. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkKHFWcACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZE4wCgn2wF3qgtUW57sXLT0MUi5J9D RyYAn0jziHhbce1hDzH163kPBdQ49IAJ =JBxm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 13:24:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4FKOMkL012810; Sun, 15 May 2005 13:24:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4FKOJPi012769; Sun, 15 May 2005 13:24:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:24:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <27854476.1116188657716.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:24:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cold fusion page in German Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.erkenntnishorizont.de/energie/kernfusion/kalte_fusion.c.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 19:15:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4G2EnkL013141; Sun, 15 May 2005 19:14:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4G2Ek9H013119; Sun, 15 May 2005 19:14:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:14:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003601c559bd$05c2a320$a3037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:14:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01C55993.1C756F50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C55993.1C756F50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0033_01C55993.1C756F50" ------=_NextPart_001_0033_01C55993.1C756F50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIf they say so, it must be true. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0033_01C55993.1C756F50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
If they say so, it must be true.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0033_01C55993.1C756F50-- ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C55993.1C756F50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003101c559bd$0549f0b0$a3037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C55993.1C756F50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 19:49:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4G2mjkL029432; Sun, 15 May 2005 19:48:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4G2mftr029371; Sun, 15 May 2005 19:48:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:48:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c559c1$c298c840$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003601c559bd$05c2a320$a3037841 xptower> Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:48:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BlankWhat... the great genius, Einstein is not all he is cracked up to be? Surely, Richard, you are not suggesting that he lifted his famous equation - e=mc^2 - from another person without attribution - or that the victim was a fellow named Olinto de Pretto, who published it in 1903, fully two years before Einstein published his paper.. This documented revelation has been known in Italy and on the net for some time, and never denied by anyone - how can it be denied ? the evidence is absolutely clear... yet no major newspaper or scientific journal has picked up the story of this injustice. Popular Science is a nothing more than a marketing tool anyway, it is a joke as far as science goes... Einstein never appologized nor even acknowledged his misdeed, AFAIK but the Nobel committee probably had suspicions then... as he was awarded the prize in 1921 solely for his work on the photoelectric effect, which he did deserve. Of course, he is still remembered mainly for his work on relativity and gravity, but that is not what he got the Nobel prize for. Were it not for the elephantine memory of the WWW, and a few iconclasts, who would know? ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay If they say so, it must be true. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 19:49:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4G2nYkL030080; Sun, 15 May 2005 19:49:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4G2nSQq030013; Sun, 15 May 2005 19:49:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:49:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c559c1$cc6ca6c0$a3037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <003601c559bd$05c2a320$a3037841 xptower> Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:48:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C55997.E317D1D0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <9mOvjC.A.pUH.1oAiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C55997.E317D1D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C55997.E317D1D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C55997.E317D1D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankOOPS!! June 2005 issue ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:14 PM Subject: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" If they say so, it must be true. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C55997.E317D1D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
OOPS!!  June 2005 issue
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:14 = PM
Subject: Popular Science Jume = 2007=20 Einstein" Master of the Universe"

If they say so, it must be true.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C55997.E317D1D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C55997.E317D1D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c559c1$cbdff720$a3037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C55997.E317D1D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 20:37:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4G3b9Jv024575; Sun, 15 May 2005 20:37:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4G3b39D024440; Sun, 15 May 2005 20:37:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:37:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:37:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Popular Science June 2005 Einstein" Master of the Universe" In-reply-to: <000901c559c1$c298c840$6401a8c0 NuDell> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In Max Born's book _Einstein's Theory of Relativity_ there is a derivation of e = mc^2 without any special relativity concepts. see p. 283-286, 1962 edition. Harry Jones Beene wrote: > BlankWhat... the great genius, Einstein is not all he is cracked > up to be? > > Surely, Richard, you are not suggesting that he lifted his famous > equation - e=mc^2 - from another person without attribution - or > that the victim was a fellow named Olinto de Pretto, who published > it in 1903, fully two years before Einstein published his paper.. > > This documented revelation has been known in Italy and on the net > for some time, and never denied by anyone - how can it be denied ? > the evidence is absolutely clear... yet no major newspaper or > scientific journal has picked up the story of this injustice. > Popular Science is a nothing more than a marketing tool anyway, it > is a joke as far as science goes... > > Einstein never appologized nor even acknowledged his misdeed, > AFAIK but the Nobel committee probably had suspicions then... as > he was awarded the prize in 1921 solely for his work on the > photoelectric effect, which he did deserve. Of course, he is still > remembered mainly for his work on relativity and gravity, but that > is not what he got the Nobel prize for. > > Were it not for the elephantine memory of the WWW, and a few > iconclasts, who would know? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: RC Macaulay > > If they say so, it must be true. > > Richard > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 20:50:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4G3o6Jv030364; Sun, 15 May 2005 20:50:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4G3o3Q3030331; Sun, 15 May 2005 20:50:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:50:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Hybrid-tether concept Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:49:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is it possible to position a large unmanned aircraft in semi-permanent stationary "quasi-orbit" but at only 20-50 km in altitude? This concept would allow such things as a really cheap replacement space telescope, or an antenna array high enough to broadcast television and broad-band communications all over a vast undeveloped area, such as the state of Alaska, say, or Afghanistan... or many other applications where satellites are too expensive an option, or don't have enough power. But it could even be a high "launching pad" for small satellites itself - IOW it would be like dispensing with the first two stages of launch. Maybe it is possible soon. There has been a lot of interest in space tethers here, and jet-stream windmills. Both just out of reach with present technology. This concept is a little of both and I don't think this slant on tethers has ever been considered even though it is (probably) within the reach of present technology. It appears to me, having just dreamed this up - that combining two ideas into a hybrid could get this field 'soaring' in the near term without the need for a major breakthrough in structural materials (such as a stronger fiber than Kevlar/Dnyeema)... The problem now is that the best fiber is just not strong enough for useful tethers which allow stationary earth orbit, of the geo-synchronous variety - but they are strong enough for several tens of km, now - as long as you do not have large loads like dealing with a wind-mill in the jet-stream of several hundred MPH. And tethers have been made electrically conductive with little penalty. Last month Robin estimated the longest Kevlar cord that would sustain it's own weight is 290 km. For Dyneema it is a bit longer. Extrapolating from available information, lets look at some 'ball-park' figures. Lets say we have an electrically conductive cable-tether, actually three of them which can carry 1-10 megawatts of high-voltage three-phase AC power to 20-50 km of altitude to power the craft in question electrically from the ground-up. Is that possible? You would have to construct the three tethers in such a way that every 10 meters or so you have a small pulsing strobe light, visible during the day. This, and an electronic warning signal, plus robotically controlled "tower operators" radioing-out to pilots in the neighborhood - would help keep the tether from being hit by other airplanes. We want to get a large drone airplane above the weather and just slightly above the jet stream, but still at an altitude with enough air pressure for large efficient propellers to work against. Unlike the "jet-stream wind-mill" idea, the cable can be much lighter than the windmill version, even though it is higher in altitude, but of course it is using-power, not producing it it. Let's "bootstrap" another concept in order to put a "stationary" craft and a succession of small payloads up there cheaply, and keep the craft there (above the weather) for as long as the materials and electrical motors, robotics, etc. will hold up with limited maintenance - maybe 5-10 years. We can lift additional loads up to it, assuming that the loads can be light and "KD" and assembled robotically on the craft in question. This would be beneficial for a high altitude ultra-cheap launch of payload to even higher altitude. BTW, KD is a term used in manufacturing in the USA to mean "knocked-down" which implies the product is designed so that small parts can be disassembled and easily reassembled (usually by the customer, like the cool stuff at Ikea). It is kind of an anachronistic term nowadays as the parts were usually never assembled first to make sure that they fit, as was once done. OK this is going to get a bit complicated. After all, it is a hybrid. First - Check out "Flying circles around the helicopter" in April 30 edition of 2005 "New Scientist" by David Hambling http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624971.600 To paraphrase: As far back as1956, fixed wing missionary pilots learned this trick, which few others have heard of, even today, although there is no good reason why it cannot be scaled up to a much larger size. Basically, in situations where you can't afford a helicopter, a low speed aircraft which can fly in tight circles over a "bull's eye" drop point where a tether (rope) is lowered. The tether naturally begins to take the vortex inverted-cone shape and eventually can touch earth at a **single stationary location** Items can be lowered or raised on this rope. The tight circular flight path combines with the forces of gravity and drag to hold the rope almost motionless at its lower extremity, reminiscent of the tornado vortex. This "bucket drop" technique has proved invaluable for certain situations using small planes but it has been largely ignored as to scale-up - until now. Lately, a team of engineers at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology in Australia are exploring the same basic principles to devise a more sophisticated air delivery system. They are working on an automated device that will allow them to pick up and put down large loads - including people - with hardly a jolt. If their system is successful, it could be revolutionary... but they have perhaps missed the best use of all. Rather than use a traditional airplane to carry a tether up for a few hours, just to replace what a helicopter can do - now we are going to power an electric, very large drone computer controlled airplane, from the ground-up, via the conductive tether, which is still strong enough to raise a succession of light KD payloads for launch form that high altitude - or many other potential uses. Manning the craft with humans is unnecessarily risky. The payloads, perhaps one of them being the next version of Hubble in KD form, can even manage to self-propel themselves up the stationary tether using power induced from the tether itself to drive their own propellers. They will not need to be pulled up. Of course, you can just mount items like a lower altitude space telescope on a specially designed single purpose drone aircraft, rather than launch one more cheaply, but it would be a problem to keep it focused on one spot in the cosmos while the plane was making continuous tight turns. That 20-50 km long electrically conductive tether (actually it would have to be longer to account for the slack in the vortex), will power a rather large robotically controlled airplane, driven by electric motors once in place, and designed to automatically operate at this altitude in continuous tight circles, constantly adjusting and correcting for the wind speed etc, using a few xbox computers, of course - and the tether is always plugged into the same megawatt (could be more or less) power source, which could itself be railcar mounted. Because so much power is available from the stationary source, there is no need for solar cells on the craft, as they can hardly carry their own weight anyway. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 22:08:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4G57kRk004280; Sun, 15 May 2005 22:07:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4G57iZq004261; Sun, 15 May 2005 22:07:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:07:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'energy hole' (Re: Mills_secret_) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:07:36 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <009f01c55596$9d9ec2d0$9c7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <20050515092456.GB828@genius.tao.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <20050515092456.GB828 genius.tao.org.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 16 May 2005 05:07:36 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4G57eRk004200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Josef Karthauser's message of Sun, 15 May 2005 10:24:56 +0100: Hi, [snip] >> > Since all matter is electromagnetic in nature, is must involve >> > radiation in some form, though it may be near field rather than >> > far field. >> > >Has anyone proposed the mechanism for this in terms of a modification >to the Lagrangian of the standard model? Not AFAIK. Would you like to take a shot? If they have, then just look for any work done on particle collisions, that doesn't involve "hard little spheres". >In this framework the >energy must be exchanged by some force carrier boson; is Mill proposing >that this is done by a virtual photon? Not sure exactly what he is proposing. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 15 22:54:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4G5sTIs027745; Sun, 15 May 2005 22:54:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4G5sStM027735; Sun, 15 May 2005 22:54:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:54:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:50:34 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4lag81tmpos3uia8j927ec13smnqg56vvd 4ax.com> References: <41b3mb$10up5i1 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <41b3mb$10up5i1 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 16 May 2005 05:50:34 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4G5sPIs027650 Resent-Message-ID: <2-2JED.A.TxG.UWDiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to 's message of Sun, 15 May 2005 11:08:49 -0400: Hi Steven, [snip] >> However If one takes into account relativistic increase >> in the mass of the electron, then the maximum shrinkage >> level is even less than 137. How much less depends on >> which model one adopts. > >Seems to me that the increase in mass implies that these theoretically tiniest of all hydrino species should be heavier than their cousins, especially hydrogen at its traditionally accepted ground state. Relativistic mass increase is really just another way of saying kinetic energy. This energy has to come from somewhere. As the hydrino shrinks, it comes from the electric field energy of the electron relative to the proton. I can see no way in which this wouldn't result in a mass reduction of at least one of the two particles involved (electron proton or both). In short particle rest mass is converted into kinetic energy, and some is also lost externally (as energy made available to the environment, see energy from hydrino shrinkage). This means that the increase in relativistic mass of the electron is not even enough to compensate for the loss in rest mass. In short the hydrino as a whole gets lighter as it shrinks. > >Theoretically speaking, could the additional mass-weight of these exotic hydrinos (approaching the limit of 137) be measurable on a macro scale? It is thus a mass loss rather than a gain, and would be very hard to measure, as it is still only a very small proportion of the overall mass (~0.027% at most). [snip] >It's my understanding that a "circuitous" description of hydrogen transformed to Hydrino, transformed to neutron, and ultimately transformed back to hydrogen scenario shouldn't occur precisely because of the endless extraction of energy that would result. Well that's my opinion. >Instead of this scenario you and other hydrino theorists have speculated that fusion may be the more likely fate precisely because these tiny critters have shrunk to such a small diameter that statistically their chances of interacting with other hydrino nuclei have been greatly improved. Indeed. Because they are shielded by their own shrunken electron, they can get much closer to another nucleus, which improves the chances of tunneling dramatically. > >While I understand, statistically speaking, why fusion may be more likely what I still question would be the ramifications that the energy well would have constructed around individual hydrinos. How would these energy wells play (or not play as the case might be) into the theorized fusion mechanism. Wouldn't they act as a formidable barrier to fusion that would have to be overcome IN ADDITION TO the well-understood column barrier? I was wondering if this energy well might ultimately cancel out any fusion advantage hydrinos might possess as a result of their smaller diameters. The loss of energy during hydrino formation would simply mean that there would be slightly less energy available from any fusion reaction than one would get from the fusion of a normal proton with the same nucleus. The reduction in fusion energy would exactly equal the amount of energy that one had already received from the hydrino shrinkage, so overall, the results would be the same. IOW hydrinos simply make fusion easier, they don't yield any more, or any less, energy over all. Furthermore, the energy freed during hydrino formation is still quite small relative to the amount released during the fusion reaction. i.e. the maximum release during hydrino formation is 255 keV. The release from an average fusion reaction involving a proton is about 5000 keV, which is about 20 times more. Note however that this assumes that the hydrino is maximally shrunken before the fusion reaction takes place. In practice, it may happen much sooner than that, after e.g. release of only 3 keV, resulting in the fusion energy being about 1000 times larger than the hydrino release energy. This means that the energy loss during shrinkage will have very little effect on the fusion energy, and not be such as to hinder the fusion event to any appreciable extent. OTOH, the reduction in size brings about an incredible increase in the chance of fusion taking place (by many orders of magnitude). To give you a feel for how enormous this is, consider the following. Calculations show that the average time between fusion events for the D atoms in D2 is at least 1E80 years. When a negative muon is used to catalyze the reaction however, the distance between the nuclei shrinks by a factor of about 207. The time needed drops to about 1E-23 seconds. IOW a size reduction by 207 yields a time reduction by 110 orders of magnitude (i.e. 3E110). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 07:59:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GEwfIs015643; Mon, 16 May 2005 07:58:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GEwUIH015506; Mon, 16 May 2005 07:58:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:58:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050516103113.04201de0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:57:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" In-Reply-To: <000901c559c1$c298c840$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <003601c559bd$05c2a320$a3037841 xptower> <000901c559c1$c298c840$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Surely, Richard, you are not suggesting that he lifted his famous >equation - e=mc^2 - from another person without attribution - or that >the victim was a fellow named Olinto de Pretto, who published it in 1903, >fully two years before Einstein published his paper.. The notion that Einstein plagiarized the formula is totally unjustified and unreasonable. Einstein always leaned over backward to credit other people for their work. He insisted that Bose-Einstein condensation be called that -- instead of Einstein-Bose. Darwin was also very generous toward other scientists, and he insisted that Wallace be credited as a co-discoverer of evolution, even though Darwin's research was far more extensive and complete that Wallace's. I do not mean Darwin was uncompetitive or he did not care about priority. The letter from Wallace spurred Darwin to publish quickly after years of stalling and waffling. (In that sense, Wallace did a great service for mankind.) You will recall that in 1903 the Internet was not well developed, and many papers were published in different parts of the world without people in other parts of the world becoming aware of it. The idea of mass-energy equivalence was in the air as it were, and many people may have discovered it independently. Oliver Heaviside discovered it long before Einstein, although he did not write the formula or tie it into a larger theory. Heaviside, Wallace (and perhaps de Pretto) deserve credit for making these discoveries, but Einstein and Darwin deserve more credit, because they did more with the idea. They went farther. They discovered more, they gave better proof, put the idea in context and demonstrated how important it was. No one has done that with cold fusion yet as far as I can tell. If the Mills theory is ever proved and it becomes widely accepted, people will certainly say the Mills accomplished that on a grand scale. The Nobel committee did not suspect plagiarism in 1921; they suspected relativity did not exist. The theory was still widely doubted, despite the Eddington brouhaha in 1919. I once had a physics textbook from the mid-1930s that called the theory "controversial" and unproven. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 09:05:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GG1qJU031703; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:05:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GFcOow011369; Mon, 16 May 2005 08:38:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:38:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050516102253.041f9230 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:27:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Name of the Game In-Reply-To: <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >There is an interesting disclaimer on the credit page: "The opinions >expressed in this book are not those of the author" ... meaning >cryptically, one might suppose, that no opinion is really our "own." He meant that he does not necessarily believe in ESP or the near-term end of the world, and he does not wish to be bothered by the legions of people who do. In a related topic, and one of his essays he wrote that while anyone acknowledges there are such things as UFOs in the literal sense (that is, flying objects that cannot be identified by the authorities), he remains unconvinced that UFOs are manned vehicles from outer space, and he is sick of the subject. I expect he still feels the same way about both subjects. In another essay, he frankly admitted that he borrowed the idea of extraterrestrial creatures that look like devils. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 09:05:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GG1qJW031703; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:05:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GFZagh009267; Mon, 16 May 2005 08:35:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:35:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008201c55a2c$df279020$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <41b3mb$10up5i1 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> <4lag81tmpos3uia8j927ec13smnqg56vvd@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:35:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4BMQfC.A.lQC.G3LiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin and hydrino-philes&phobes... > In short the hydrino as a whole gets lighter as it shrinks. >>Theoretically speaking, could the additional mass-weight of >>these exotic hydrinos (approaching the limit of 137) be >>measurable on a macro scale? > It is thus a mass loss rather than a gain, and would be very > hard > to measure, as it is still only a very small proportion of the > overall mass (~0.027% at most). Hey.... All this is true, but I think what Robin may be overlooking is **density** not atomic mass. Atomic Mass may be slightly less in the absolute, but density is another story altogether. When you get a drop in orbital diameter of the hydrino, at the first level of 1/2, then the atomic mass will indeed drop by an unperceivable amount, as mentioned, BUT the density, being the mass per unit volume and a **cubic relationship** will INCREASE by a factor of eight. An this should continue for every fractional drop in the redundant ground state... or am I missing something ? Of course, if it is this simple, then I am surprised that Nora Baron, the queen-bee in Mills' bonnet, has not opined that Mills concocted the whole hydrino-hydride to shield him from this density problem, as the hydride would have the normal H2 density, or close - BUT that invention - the hydrino-hydride is an ion, don't forget, and all ions, and I do mean ALL, can be inhibited from forming by the proper application of charge. You cannot tell me with a straight that the hydrino MUST form a hydride, and can never form a dihydrino. That is preposterous. In fact, Mills was always talking about dihydrinos, not hydrino-hydrides, up until the last few years, was he not? At the fourth level, di-hydrinos should already be considerably more dense than uranium, when liquefied. And, in general, the denser any element is, the easier it is to liquefy if it does not take the solid form anyway. Fourth level dihydrinos should be a solid, certainly. Surely, Mills is not suggesting that the bulk dihydrino is always gaseous and cannot be liquefied? At a level of 1/8, which Mills claims to have samples of, dihydrinos should have an enormous density, far greater than any natural element on earth... ... and all he need do to validate hydrinos to the World, it would seem, is to permit an analytical chemist take a density measurement. If this is done, and they are as dense as normal logic suggests, then THAT ALONE will guarantee Mills Nobel prize, so I don't want to hear any more of this... "it just takes time" stuff. Either he has dihydrinos in microgram quantity now, or the man is a liar. It is that simple. We all want validation, right? How difficult can that be. Micrograms can be measured for density, actually nanograms can now be weighed in a few labs. Is Mills now going to claim that he does not possess even a microgram of pure dihydrinos? ...or so it would seem. I must be missing something? Probably. If so I will apologize to Mills in advance for the rant. The frozen-cerebellum problem is actually quite likely this morning, as my expresso machine finally failed on Friday and the new one hasn't been delivered yet... and Tea is not a good substitute... at least not for the latte-addicts of the world. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 09:20:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GGKOIs016066; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:20:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GGCrfP009343; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:12:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:12:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050516161217.0097ba84 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:12:17 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:35 am 16/05/2005 -0700, Jones wrote: >You cannot tell me with a straight that the hydrino MUST form a >hydride, and can never form a dihydrino. Could he tell you if he had a full house or better still four of a kind? ;^) F. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 09:28:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GGRoIs022429; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:27:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GGPmmd020356; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:25:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:25:31 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hybrid-tether concept Message-ID: <14054421.1116239131 localhost> In-Reply-To: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, I'm not a aeronautical engineer but I have spent a lot of time flying at high altitudes. 20km ~ 65,000 ft and propellers just don't work up there (pure jets & ram jets not fans are best). Also, even if they did I don't see a "zero ground speed" as being possible at those altitudes (airfoils need dense air or speed). For everything I've flown the airspeed between stall & critical mach # becomes very small with increasing density altitude. The U2 has a very thin operating envelope at those altitudes & although slow it definately doesn't hover. Ron --On Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:49 PM -0700 Jones Beene wrote: > Is it possible to position a large unmanned aircraft in > semi-permanent stationary "quasi-orbit" but at only 20-50 km in > altitude? > > This concept would allow such things as a really cheap replacement > space telescope, or an antenna array high enough to broadcast > television and broad-band communications all over a vast undeveloped > area, such as the state of Alaska, say, or Afghanistan... or many > other applications where satellites are too expensive an option, or > don't have enough power. But it could even be a high "launching pad" > for small satellites itself - IOW it would be like dispensing with > the first two stages of launch. > > Maybe it is possible soon. There has been a lot of interest in space > tethers here, and jet-stream windmills. Both just out of reach with > present technology. This concept is a little of both and I don't > think this slant on tethers has ever been considered even though it > is (probably) within the reach of present technology. It appears to > me, having just dreamed this up - that combining two ideas into a > hybrid could get this field 'soaring' in the near term without the > need for a major breakthrough in structural materials (such as a > stronger fiber than Kevlar/Dnyeema)... > > The problem now is that the best fiber is just not strong enough > for useful tethers which allow stationary earth orbit, of the > geo-synchronous variety - but they are strong enough for several > tens of km, now - as long as you do not have large loads like dealing > with a wind-mill in the jet-stream of several hundred MPH. And > tethers have been made electrically conductive with little penalty. > Last month Robin estimated the longest Kevlar cord that would > sustain it's own weight is 290 km. For Dyneema it is a bit longer. > > Extrapolating from available information, lets look at some > 'ball-park' figures. Lets say we have an electrically conductive > cable-tether, actually three of them which can carry 1-10 megawatts > of high-voltage three-phase AC power to 20-50 km of altitude to > power the craft in question electrically from the ground-up. Is that > possible? > > You would have to construct the three tethers in such a way that > every 10 meters or so you have a small pulsing strobe light, visible > during the day. This, and an electronic warning signal, plus > robotically controlled "tower operators" radioing-out to pilots in > the neighborhood - would help keep the tether from being hit by > other airplanes. > > We want to get a large drone airplane above the weather and > just slightly above the jet stream, but still at an altitude with > enough air pressure for large efficient propellers to work against. > Unlike the "jet-stream wind-mill" idea, the cable can be much lighter > than the windmill version, even though it is higher in altitude, but > of course it is using-power, not producing it it. > > Let's "bootstrap" another concept in order to put a "stationary" > craft and a succession of small payloads up there cheaply, and > keep the craft there (above the weather) for as long as the > materials and electrical motors, robotics, etc. will hold up with > limited maintenance - maybe 5-10 years. We can lift additional > loads up to it, assuming that the loads can be light and "KD" and > assembled robotically on the craft in question. This would be > beneficial for a high altitude ultra-cheap launch of payload to even > higher altitude. > > BTW, KD is a term used in manufacturing in the USA to > mean "knocked-down" which implies the product is designed so that > small parts can be disassembled and easily reassembled (usually by > the customer, like the cool stuff at Ikea). It is kind of an > anachronistic term nowadays as the parts were usually never > assembled first to make sure that they fit, as was once done. > > OK this is going to get a bit complicated. After all, it is a > hybrid. First - Check out "Flying circles around the helicopter" in > April 30 edition of 2005 "New Scientist" by David Hambling > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624971.600 > > To paraphrase: As far back as1956, fixed wing missionary pilots > learned this trick, which few others have heard of, even today, > although there is no good reason why it cannot be scaled up to a > much larger size. > > Basically, in situations where you can't afford a helicopter, a > low speed aircraft which can fly in tight circles over a "bull's eye" > drop point where a tether (rope) is lowered. The tether naturally > begins to take the vortex inverted-cone shape and eventually can > touch earth at a **single stationary location** Items can be lowered > or raised on this rope. The tight circular flight path combines with > the forces of gravity and drag to hold the rope almost motionless at > its lower extremity, reminiscent of the tornado vortex. > > This "bucket drop" technique has proved invaluable for certain > situations using small planes but it has been largely ignored as > to scale-up - until now. Lately, a team of engineers at the Royal > Melbourne Institute of Technology in Australia are exploring the > same basic principles to devise a more sophisticated air delivery > system. They are working on an automated device that will allow > them to pick up and put down large loads - including people - with > hardly a jolt. If their system is successful, it could be > revolutionary... but they have perhaps missed the best use of all. > > Rather than use a traditional airplane to carry a tether up for a > few hours, just to replace what a helicopter can do - now we are > going to power an electric, very large drone computer controlled > airplane, from the ground-up, via the conductive tether, which is > still strong enough to raise a succession of light KD payloads for > launch form that high altitude - or many other potential uses. > > Manning the craft with humans is unnecessarily risky. The > payloads, perhaps one of them being the next version of Hubble in > KD form, can even manage to self-propel themselves up the > stationary tether using power induced from the tether itself to > drive their own propellers. They will not need to be pulled up. > > Of course, you can just mount items like a lower altitude space > telescope on a specially designed single purpose drone aircraft, > rather than launch one more cheaply, but it would be a problem to > keep it focused on one spot in the cosmos while the plane was making > continuous tight turns. > > That 20-50 km long electrically conductive tether (actually it > would have to be longer to account for the slack in the vortex), > will power a rather large robotically controlled airplane, driven > by electric motors once in place, and designed to automatically > operate at this altitude in continuous tight circles, constantly > adjusting and correcting for the wind speed etc, using a few xbox > computers, of course - and the tether is always plugged into the same > megawatt (could be more or less) power source, which could itself be > railcar mounted. > > Because so much power is available from the stationary source, > there is no need for solar cells on the craft, as they can hardly > carry their own weight anyway. > > Jones > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 09:48:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GGleIs006922; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:47:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GGgJlX003421; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:42:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:42:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008501c55a34$0bce8410$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003601c559bd$05c2a320$a3037841 xptower> <000901c559c1$c298c840$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.0.3.0.2.20050516103113.04201de0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:26:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > The notion that Einstein plagiarized the formula is totally > unjustified and unreasonable. Einstein always leaned over > backward to credit other people for their work. Baloney...or worse. The charge is not only justified and reasonable, it is true beyond any doubt: http://www.Italian-American.com/deplete.htm > He insisted that Bose-Einstein condensation be called that -- > instead of Einstein-Bose. By then he was already famous and could afford to be condescending. Not to mention Bose did most of the work, derived the formulae, and deserved first mention. But fate entered the picture in Einsteins's early years ...luck of the draw, as they say... so that the real question is would he have been "as famous" if De Pretto had not been shot dead by a woman over a business dispute before either of them were well-known? When De Pretto was killed he was about to publish the complete book of his scientific ideas, which some Italians think would have put him on a pedestal equal, or even, above Einstein. > Darwin was also very generous toward other scientists, and he > insisted that Wallace be credited as a co-discoverer of > evolution, even though Darwin's research was far more extensive > and complete that Wallace's. Absolutely irrelevant as to Einstein/De Pretto. > The idea of mass-energy equivalence was in the air as it were, > and many people may have discovered it independently. Yes, it could have been a formative meme, and certainly was "in the air" but no, there was only one true discoverer of the exact formula in mathematical form and that was De Pretto. Sir Isaac Newton said "Gross bodies and light are convertible into one another..." in 1704 but that is not enough. Mathematical formula are the key ! and this was de Pretto's, not Einstein's. Many others came close. Later the now famous and (probably) more capable scientist, tried to take full credit, but was without question, a plagiarist of this formula, sadly, as it became the formula by which is is now known, far and wide... and yet Einstein could have rectified the situation easily, with little loss of stature, but chose not to. > Einstein and Darwin deserve more credit, because they did more > with the idea. They went farther. They discovered more, they > gave better proof" That is true (that they did more with the idea). That is the only justification for not vilifying Einstein for this oversight. But the correct formula, and nothing else, ususally wins these aguments. If there is a 'story' here it is this. This is the only time in sicence history when that axiom - of the first one with the correct matematical formula, wins - has not held true, so far as I can tell. And this result is likely to have some relationship to DePretto's untimely murder and the upheaval between WWI and WWII. Nevertheless, some Italians (who feel there is a national bias against their country anyway) claim Einstein was notified early-on of the problem with de Pretto's prior discovery, as was the Nobel committee, and that he chose not to rectify the lack of attribution at the awards ceremony, which would have been the proper time to do so, even though the award was for the photoelectric effect. The pre-quantum math of the photoelectric effect depends upon the mass-energy equivalence, and Einstein should have given proper attribution then. No internet or no WWW at that time is irrelevant, actually more damning in a way as there was a limited amount of physics literature, which all physicists read - and it is absurd to assert that the widely read (at the time) publication in which Pretto published was not also known to Einstein, if not immediately then soon after. BTW, they were living only a few hours driving time apart in those days, even though it is unlikely that Einstein had a car then (there is rail service). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 10:00:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GGxeIs015339; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:59:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GGxSQI015161; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:59:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:59:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FG+tTuys8suX3fGBQ3Fyit2OFGagC8whoVRem9twxjDI1GObny4AIIFODKY7mCxEhWlOz2gl/sZSamixj61MWI8iUkTG5CTAV9xRhVFQV1jbnpqqGAelLpWs2ULWYYB43mA131KkGJNPPBMG4K4qXdHTIjDcDFtbynuyWNQcTIQ= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:59:03 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hybrid-tether concept In-Reply-To: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4GGxLIs014998 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the basics of an orbit are litteraly that the object is falling towards earth, but has too much foward momentum to hit, it keeps missing. (very hitchiker, the secret of an orbit really IS to throw yourself at the ground, and miss) and that small of a height, youd have to have an ENOURMOUS speed. or, something to slow the fall, which would take a lot of energy over time. On 5/15/05, Jones Beene wrote: > Is it possible to position a large unmanned aircraft in > semi-permanent stationary "quasi-orbit" but at only 20-50 km in > altitude? > > This concept would allow such things as a really cheap replacement > space telescope, or an antenna array high enough to broadcast > television and broad-band communications all over a vast > undeveloped area, such as the state of Alaska, say, or > Afghanistan... or many other applications where satellites are too > expensive an option, or don't have enough power. But it could even > be a high "launching pad" for small satellites itself - IOW it > would be like dispensing with the first two stages of launch. > > Maybe it is possible soon. There has been a lot of interest in > space tethers here, and jet-stream windmills. Both just out of > reach with present technology. This concept is a little of both > and I don't think this slant on tethers has ever been considered > even though it is (probably) within the reach of present > technology. It appears to me, having just dreamed this up - that > combining two ideas into a hybrid could get this field 'soaring' > in the near term without the need for a major breakthrough in > structural materials (such as a stronger fiber than > Kevlar/Dnyeema)... > > The problem now is that the best fiber is just not strong enough > for useful tethers which allow stationary earth orbit, of the > geo-synchronous variety - but they are strong enough for several > tens of km, now - as long as you do not have large loads like > dealing with a wind-mill in the jet-stream of several hundred > MPH. And tethers have been made electrically conductive with > little penalty. Last month Robin estimated the longest Kevlar > cord that would sustain it's own weight is 290 km. For Dyneema it > is a bit longer. > > Extrapolating from available information, lets look at some > 'ball-park' figures. Lets say we have an electrically conductive > cable-tether, actually three of them which can carry 1-10 > megawatts of high-voltage three-phase AC power to 20-50 km of > altitude to power the craft in question electrically from the > ground-up. Is that possible? > > You would have to construct the three tethers in such a way that > every 10 meters or so you have a small pulsing strobe light, > visible during the day. This, and an electronic warning signal, > plus robotically controlled "tower operators" radioing-out to > pilots in the neighborhood - would help keep the tether from > being hit by other airplanes. > > We want to get a large drone airplane above the weather and > just slightly above the jet stream, but still at an altitude with > enough air pressure for large efficient propellers to work > against. Unlike the "jet-stream wind-mill" idea, the cable can be > much lighter than the windmill version, even though it is higher > in altitude, but of course it is using-power, not producing it it. > > Let's "bootstrap" another concept in order to put a "stationary" > craft and a succession of small payloads up there cheaply, and > keep the craft there (above the weather) for as long as the > materials and electrical motors, robotics, etc. will hold up with > limited maintenance - maybe 5-10 years. We can lift additional > loads up to it, assuming that the loads can be light and "KD" and > assembled robotically on the craft in question. This would be > beneficial for a high altitude ultra-cheap launch of payload to > even higher altitude. > > BTW, KD is a term used in manufacturing in the USA to > mean "knocked-down" which implies the product is designed so that > small parts can be disassembled and easily reassembled (usually by > the customer, like the cool stuff at Ikea). It is kind of an > anachronistic term nowadays as the parts were usually never > assembled first to make sure that they fit, as was once done. > > OK this is going to get a bit complicated. After all, it is a > hybrid. First - Check out "Flying circles around the helicopter" > in April 30 edition of 2005 "New Scientist" by David Hambling > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624971.600 > > To paraphrase: As far back as1956, fixed wing missionary pilots > learned this trick, which few others have heard of, even today, > although there is no good reason why it cannot be scaled up to a > much larger size. > > Basically, in situations where you can't afford a helicopter, a > low speed aircraft which can fly in tight circles over a "bull's > eye" drop point where a tether (rope) is lowered. The tether > naturally begins to take the vortex inverted-cone shape and > eventually can touch earth at a **single stationary location** > Items can be lowered or raised on > this rope. The tight circular flight path combines with the forces > of gravity and drag to hold the rope almost motionless at its > lower extremity, reminiscent of the tornado vortex. > > This "bucket drop" technique has proved invaluable for certain > situations using small planes but it has been largely ignored as > to scale-up - until now. Lately, a team of engineers at the Royal > Melbourne Institute of Technology in Australia are exploring the > same basic principles to devise a more sophisticated air delivery > system. They are working on an automated device that will allow > them to pick up and put down large loads - including people - with > hardly a jolt. If their system is successful, it could be > revolutionary... but they have perhaps missed the best use of all. > > Rather than use a traditional airplane to carry a tether up for a > few hours, just to replace what a helicopter can do - now we are > going to power an electric, very large drone computer controlled > airplane, from the ground-up, via the conductive tether, which is > still strong enough to raise a succession of light KD payloads for > launch form that high altitude - or many other potential uses. > > Manning the craft with humans is unnecessarily risky. The > payloads, perhaps one of them being the next version of Hubble in > KD form, can even manage to self-propel themselves up the > stationary tether using power induced from the tether itself to > drive their own propellers. They will not need to be pulled up. > > Of course, you can just mount items like a lower altitude space > telescope on a specially designed single purpose drone aircraft, > rather than launch one more cheaply, but it would be a problem to > keep it focused on one spot in the cosmos while the plane was > making continuous tight turns. > > That 20-50 km long electrically conductive tether (actually it > would have to be longer to account for the slack in the vortex), > will power a rather large robotically controlled airplane, driven > by electric motors once in place, and designed to automatically > operate at this altitude in continuous tight circles, constantly > adjusting and correcting for the wind speed etc, using a few xbox > computers, of course - and the tether is always plugged into the > same megawatt (could be more or less) power source, which could > itself be railcar mounted. > > Because so much power is available from the stationary source, > there is no need for solar cells on the craft, as they can hardly > carry their own weight anyway. > > Jones > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 10:04:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GH3VIs018144; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:03:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GGv8eK013688; Mon, 16 May 2005 09:57:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:57:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009901c55a36$12c21410$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <14054421.1116239131@localhost> Subject: Re: Hybrid-tether concept Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:41:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Ron Wormus" > I'm not a aeronautical engineer but I have spent a lot of time > flying at high altitudes. 20km ~ 65,000 ft and propellers just > don't work up there (pure jets & ram jets not fans are best). > Also, even if they did I don't see a "zero ground speed" as > being possible at those altitudes (airfoils need dense air or > speed). Oh well, another flash-in-the-pan idea bites the dust ! BTW, Ron, I had written a response to your "machines don't think" post but it was bumped because it was too long, probably. Actually, I had enclosed in that post a whole chapter of an old manuscript I had written some time ago, not thinking about the size limit for posts on vortex, which I think is 40 kb - is that correct? Maybe I will reword some of the content. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 10:17:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GHHDIs027375; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:17:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GHGc2P027089; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:16:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:16:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050516171538.00973b84 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:15:38 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" Resent-Message-ID: <0EHgLC.A.HnG.0VNiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:26 am 16/05/2005 -0700, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jed Rothwell" > > >> The notion that Einstein plagiarized the formula is totally >> unjustified and unreasonable. Einstein always leaned over >> backward to credit other people for their work. > >Baloney...or worse. The charge is not only justified and >reasonable, it is true beyond any doubt: >http://www.Italian-American.com/deplete.htm > >> He insisted that Bose-Einstein condensation be called that -- >> instead of Einstein-Bose. > >By then he was already famous and could afford to be >condescending. Not to mention Bose did most of the work, derived >the formulae, and deserved first mention. > >But fate entered the picture in Einsteins's early years ...luck of >the draw, as they say... so that the real question is would he >have been "as famous" if De Pretto had not been shot dead by a >woman over a business dispute before either of them were >well-known? When De Pretto was killed he was about to publish the >complete book of his scientific ideas, which some Italians think >would have put him on a pedestal equal, or even, above Einstein. > >> Darwin was also very generous toward other scientists, and he >> insisted that Wallace be credited as a co-discoverer of >> evolution, even though Darwin's research was far more extensive >> and complete that Wallace's. > >Absolutely irrelevant as to Einstein/De Pretto. > >> The idea of mass-energy equivalence was in the air as it were, >> and many people may have discovered it independently. > >Yes, it could have been a formative meme, and certainly was "in >the air" but no, there was only one true discoverer of the exact >formula in mathematical form and that was De Pretto. Sir Isaac >Newton said "Gross bodies and light are convertible into one >another..." in 1704 but that is not enough. Mathematical formula >are the key ! and this was de Pretto's, not Einstein's. Many >others came close. Later the now famous and (probably) more >capable scientist, tried to take full credit, but was without >question, a plagiarist of this formula, sadly, as it became the >formula by which is now known, far and wide... and yet Einstein >could have rectified the situation easily, with little loss of >stature, but chose not to. > >> Einstein and Darwin deserve more credit, because they did more >> with the idea. They went farther. They discovered more, they >> gave better proof" > >That is true (that they did more with the idea). That is the only >justification for not vilifying Einstein for this oversight. But >the correct formula, and nothing else, usually wins these >arguments. > >If there is a 'story' here it is this. This is the only time in >science history when that axiom - of the first one with the >correct mathematical formula, wins - has not held true, so far as I >can tell. And this result is likely to have some relationship to >DePretto's untimely murder and the upheaval between WWI and WWII. > >Nevertheless, some Italians (who feel there is a national bias >against their country anyway) claim Einstein was notified early-on >of the problem with de Pretto's prior discovery, as was the Nobel >committee, and that he chose not to rectify the lack of >attribution at the awards ceremony, which would have been the >proper time to do so, even though the award was for the >photoelectric effect. The pre-quantum math of the photoelectric >effect depends upon the mass-energy equivalence, and Einstein >should have given proper attribution then. > >No internet or no WWW at that time is irrelevant, actually more >damning in a way as there was a limited amount of physics >literature, which all physicists read - and it is absurd to assert >that the widely read (at the time) publication in which Pretto >published was not also known to Einstein, if not immediately then >soon after. BTW, they were living only a few hours driving time >apart in those days, even though it is unlikely that Einstein had >a car then (there is rail service). > >Jones That link you gave in your previous post, Jones, wouldn't work for me. But this one does. http://www.italian-american.com/depretreview.htm I must say, I find Professor Umberto Bartocci's arguments pretty convincing. But then my great grandfather was an Italian opera singer by the name of Meo, so maybe I'm prejudiced, eh! ;^) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 10:23:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GHMrIs031293; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:22:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GHMcbD031115; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:22:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:22:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050516172214.00964974 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:22:14 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hybrid-tether concept Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:41 am 16/05/2005 -0700, you wrote: >From: "Ron Wormus" > >> I'm not a aeronautical engineer but I have spent a lot of time >> flying at high altitudes. 20km ~ 65,000 ft and propellers just >> don't work up there (pure jets & ram jets not fans are best). >> Also, even if they did I don't see a "zero ground speed" as >> being possible at those altitudes (airfoils need dense air or >> speed). > > >Oh well, another flash-in-the-pan idea bites the dust ! > > >BTW, Ron, I had written a response to your "machines don't think" >post but it was bumped because it was too long, probably. >Actually, I had enclosed in that post a whole chapter of an old >manuscript I had written some time ago, not thinking about the >size limit for posts on vortex, which I think is 40 kb - is that >correct? > >Maybe I will reword some of the content. > >Jones Hows about an executive summary? Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 10:24:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GHNNIs031637; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:23:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GHGZEK027060; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:16:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:16:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4288D56B.5060503 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:16:27 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hybrid-tether concept References: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Manning the craft with humans is unnecessarily risky. The > payloads, perhaps one of them being the next version of Hubble in > KD form, can even manage to self-propel themselves up the > stationary tether using power induced from the tether itself to > drive their own propellers. They will not need to be pulled up. But doesn't this rather miss the whole point of the elevator concept? Shinnying up a cable is far, far more efficient than throwing stuff overboard "real hard" to lift yourself (as a rocket does) or attempting to shinny up the air (as a helicopter does). If you just use the tether as a guide line and a long extension cord, you might as well dispense with it entirely for all that it's buying you. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 10:52:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GHq0Is018215; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:52:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GHow43017677; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:50:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:50:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00df01c55a3f$bdcdd570$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002d01c559ca$55173fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4288D56B.5060503@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Hybrid-tether concept Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:50:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen, OK. After thinking a bit more about it, Ron may have supplied a good reason why this won't work, unless you can drive a turbo-compressor efficiently with an electric motor? ...and the idea may have been a bit hastily concocted anyway, but... > If you just use the tether as a guide line and a long extension > cord, you might as well dispense with it entirely for all that > it's buying you. In the event that some of these problems have solutions, don't forget the tether is carrying megawatts of power "up" so it is far more than just a guide line. If you can engineer an elevator-type lifter, which will fit around the tether, so that it can induce its own power parasitically, then a fraction of the electrical current will drive the lifter's separate propuslsion system (maybe something like an Moller aerocar turned 90 degrees)... get the picture? The lifter then can shuttle small loads back and forth, continually from the ground-up - to the limit of load-carrying ability of the drone, which may be small. I guess the wingspan of the drone would have to enormous with the air being that thin, but imagine a U2 airplane, scaled up and with electrically driven fan compressors, but perhaps much larger fuselage. If loads of only 100 kg are shuttled upwards, and each takes an hour, round trip, then in a few days you have a pretty large third stage payload with rocket engine, in effect an assembled composite, ready to launch above most of the atmosphere - one which has dispensed with the first two stages and maybe 90% of the weight and cost of a normal launch? who knows? this is very green, admittedly. ....and I am going to leave it that way for now and get back to something which is cutting edge, but more likely to be possible soon - the Gaia subcritical reactor. Anybody who want to improve on this tether idea is free to do so, and if you pass Ron's flight test criteria, then you can name it after yourself... hey, the Lawrence Expressway sounds fitting (which is a local joke in the SV, as it is many lanes but far from "express")... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 10:58:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GHvfIs022301; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:57:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GHv4BL021970; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:57:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:57:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4288DECD.6040205 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:56:29 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" References: <003601c559bd$05c2a320$a3037841 xptower> <000901c559c1$c298c840$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <000901c559c1$c298c840$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7di3uC.A.JXF.v7NiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > BlankWhat... the great genius, Einstein is not all he is cracked up to > be? > > Surely, Richard, you are not suggesting that he lifted his famous > equation - e=mc^2 Oh, bosh. There are multiple paths to that formula and anyone who's actually studied the field is well aware that Einstein didn't originate the idea that mass and energy are interconvertible. In fact, nobody in the scientific community in 1905 was surprised by Einstein's revelation; only the popular press and folks outside the field were astonished. As I understand it there had been debate over what the conversion coefficient should be; factors such as 1/2 and even 3/4 had been proposed, IIRC. Einstein nailed it to 1, and also provided a theoretical framework which put it on a far firmer basis than it had been on before. His theoretical framework also made testable predictions which were borne out in practice, which is something prior efforts along those lines came up short on. Learn a little GR as well as a little SR before you start tearing down Einstein. The scientific community of his time knew perfectly well the difference between what was already known and what was new, and Einstein was properly lauded by his peers for putting together the pieces of a puzzle which many other scientists and mathematicians had been struggling with. Einstein did not invent the puzzle, but nobody except writers trying to oversimplify the field for a mathematically illiterate public ever claimed he did. Note well: In the field of relativity, the first thing you encounter which is named after Einstein is the EINSTEIN TENSOR. Not the LORENTZ transform, not FITZGERALD contraction, not the RICCI tensor, not the BIANCHI identities. There is a reason for this: Einstein was standing on the shoulders of giants; he knew it and so did everybody else who was knowledgeable about the field. But that doesn't make him less of a giant himself. If you don't know what the Einstein tensor is and what it means then you haven't learned enough of the field to properly judge Einstein's contribution to it. There has been a lot of speculation, probably well-founded, that had Einstein not been Jewish there would not have been such an astontishing array of attempts at tearing him down and showing his contribution to science wasn't what it clearly was. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 11:55:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GIsWIs026447; Mon, 16 May 2005 11:54:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GIpE0w024381; Mon, 16 May 2005 11:51:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:51:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4288EB90.3070808 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:50:56 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" References: <003601c559bd$05c2a320$a3037841 xptower> <000901c559c1$c298c840$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.0.3.0.2.20050516103113.04201de0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050516103113.04201de0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> Surely, Richard, you are not suggesting that he lifted his famous >> equation - e=mc^2 - from another person without attribution - or >> that the victim was a fellow named Olinto de Pretto, who published it >> in 1903, fully two years before Einstein published his paper.. > > > The notion that Einstein plagiarized the formula is totally > unjustified and unreasonable. Jed, you're right but for the wrong reasons. The formula had certainly been published previously, more than once IIRC, and had also been published with other coefficients (non-1). Einstein didn't "plagiarize" it because other scientists were already aware of it; "plagiarizing" the formula wouldn't have been meaningful or possible. But Einstein's contribution wasn't a bare formula pulled out of a hat; it was a complete and consistent theoretical framework which made the formula inevitable. There is enormous ignorance surrounding this and a great deal of hatred directed at Einstein himself, possibly because he was Jewish. Popularizations of relativity, along with the writers of some relativity texts, have contributed to the confusion by making it sound like Einstein invented the field out of whole cloth, which was of course not true. We are a century past the initial work now and the detailed history of the field, like the original and rather confusing form the mathematics took, tends to be smoothed out into something easier to teach but less complete. Some relativity textbooks talk about prior contributions from other scientists; others, from writers who are in more of a hurry to get on with the physics, just pretend the whole thing sprang full-formed from the brow of Einstein. Who provided the first solid mathematical derivation of the Einstein field equations? Anybody here know off-hand (I mean anybody aside from Horace)? Don't all raise your hands at once. Just another deep dark secret of the field, well known -- but only to those who've actually studied the subject. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 12:48:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GJliIs025006; Mon, 16 May 2005 12:47:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GJlYVd024928; Mon, 16 May 2005 12:47:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:47:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Hybrid-tether concept Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:07:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050516170712.BZEF2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > not thinking about the > size limit for posts on vortex, which I think is 40 kb - is that > correct? Affirmative. > Maybe I will reword some of the content. Uh, you *could* split the post. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 13:02:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GK0pJE000457; Mon, 16 May 2005 13:02:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GJf6CT021053; Mon, 16 May 2005 12:41:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:41:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:40:49 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c55a4f$2a410e70$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <5lj3bC.A.vIF.RdPiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Hilbert is credited with the correct field equations for general relativity five days before Einstein but never claimed priority. Bit big for our britches the last couple of days, eh? Any special reason why you feel the need to be so condescending to everyone in your posts? In general I always regarded you as a pretty smart guy. Lately you've been quite the jackass to everyone.... WTF? -j -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Who provided the first solid mathematical derivation of the Einstein field equations? Anybody here know off-hand (I mean anybody aside from Horace)? Don't all raise your hands at once. Just another deep dark secret of the field, well known -- but only to those who've actually studied the subject. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 13:18:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GKIOIs010814; Mon, 16 May 2005 13:18:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GKIJmu010735; Mon, 16 May 2005 13:18:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:18:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42890001.1080208 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:18:09 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" References: <000001c55a4f$2a410e70$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> In-Reply-To: <000001c55a4f$2a410e70$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >David Hilbert is credited with the correct field equations for general >relativity five days before Einstein but never claimed priority. > >Bit big for our britches the last couple of days, eh? Any special reason >why you feel the need to be so condescending to everyone in your posts? >In general I always regarded you as a pretty smart guy. Lately you've been >quite the jackass to everyone.... WTF? > > Hmmm, maybe you're right. I've had the flu for the last week -- off and on all winter, really -- and I'm getting crabby. Apologies. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 13:50:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GKnfIs028411; Mon, 16 May 2005 13:49:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GKnZAY028353; Mon, 16 May 2005 13:49:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:49:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007c01c55a58$bcb29810$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <20050516170712.BZEF2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Long posting problem: was Hybrid-tether concept Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:49:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry > size limit for posts on vortex, which I think is 40 kb - is that > correct? Affirmative. > Maybe I will reword some of the content. Uh, you *could* split the post. OK I split the 70 kb chapter in half and sent it. I hope it comes through, but in my Sent folder, half of it still shows up as being 70 kb...kinda sounds like a certain miracle, but its not loaves and fish... just bizarre and fishy... as in Outlook Express needs an update ... anyway, it may not come through. Not my day it seems. Perhaps my computer senses its own sympathetic condition of caffeine withdrawal. Assuming attachments are not permitted, I am back to square one ... but better yet , since AI is off-topic for Vortex anyway, and of limited interest to many readers, here is a solution. If anyone wants to pursue this in a very detailed way, send me you email address. I can send an attachment of either this chapter (70 kb), or the whole manuscript (about 1 Mb) directly to you if you are interested in AI and its philosophical implications. The whole manuscript is entitled "Deus ex Machina"... and having just now revisited it, after a dozen years of neglect, it seems to be a bit stilted and in need of an update. Anyway, it is still an interesting subject, although I was either wildly optimistic, or just "ahead of his time." Jones Here is the first few paragraphs, having lost the formatting: Chapter IV. Pure Thought, Brains, and Artificial Intelligence "Of course machines can think They just don't - yet And perhaps when they can they will choose not to; just like us." -Oliver Selfridge Until the advent of electronics, the most compelling reason to be precise in defining intelligence was pedantic, but with the introduction of advanced computers, it seems that vanity has become a revealing issue. In the last few decades, humans have exerted great effort to erect a contrived barrier that would sanctify only one kind of intelligence. The sanctification of a particular class goes beyond the limits of science, of course, but more alarmingly, it obscures the profound and consequential question: our true essence and identity. As mentioned, a crucial debate in twenty-first century morality will likely center on whether our future as thinking beings is irrevocably tied to the adaptability of an animal species, or alternatively whether technology will deliver us from that heritage, should it ever become unquestionably advantageous. We can scarcely afford to limit our options in this regard, given the demonstrable frailty of biological life. Intelligence is more than problem solving. The ability to observe and generalize, to form analogies and think symbolically, to be creative and to communicate ideas orally and visually all signify a degree of intellect. The psychologist J.P. Guilford cataloged 120 different types of responses that are associated with intellectual ability.[i] If one could weight these factors properly, it might be possible to arrive at an adequate but overly complex method for certifying intelligence. Howard Gardner has systematically grouped intelligence into seven broad types, which has helped to structure the objective indicia.[ii] A more simplified but adequate definition has been suggested by Christopher Evans, that being the ability of a system to adjust to a changing world.[iii] A similar conclusion is Jeremy Campbell's notion of "worldliness."[iv] Yet these simple definitions may be unnecessarily subjective. Defining any reasonably broad term can involve a certain amount of semantic recursion, and intelligence and information are reflexive words that can be mutually dependent upon each other for meaning. Any system that utilizes information in a goal-directed way has some claim to intelligence - and even the "goal" part of the equation is only important to demonstrate that the information, the critical element, has objective significance. Using self-contained information to alter a future state, particularly for gain, is the key to intelligence; but information perceived and retained, even if it is not used immediately, can also signify a latent level of intelligence. Information has both epistemological and theological connotations, as it conveys the substance, more so than the details, of relationships from an accumulated past, more specifically of habitual occurrence. Information should be distinguished from mere data - which is temporal, random, unorganized and sterile - rather, it connotes essence, record, symbol, and generalization. It is from an overly narrow perspective that data-information has been argued to useless without the subjective concept of "meaning." From this viewpoint, Theodore Roszak asserts that "ideas create information,"[v] but there is a more inclusive level of understanding. In an expansive field-delineated sense, information can be seen as an end into itself, its own idea, incorporating both data and "virtual" meaning - suggestive, even, of a free-floating agency without other participation. Virtual meaning is not only potential meaning but the ability to self-generate individual collaborators, information accumulators, over time. It will be used in this broad context throughout this analysis. The difference in perspective on the nature of information adds a new dimension to the famous solipsism of Bishop Berkeley that suggested that the falling tree makes no sound if there is no one present to hear it. The pragmatist has always maintained that the falling tree creates an objective flurry of vibrations at certain acoustic frequencies, even if there is no person present to confirm a subjective sound, for several related reasons. Most obviously, it would be extreme conceit to suppose that all sentient forms, seen or unseen, present or future, could be identified, if not nullified, by one narrow class of observer, Homo sapiens. For the traditionalist, of course, it negates most perceptions of divinity to suggest that some intelligence is not always present. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [i]J.P. Guilford, The Nature of Human Intelligence (McGraw Hill, 1967) [ii]Howard Gardner, Frames of Mind (New York: Basic Books, 1983), and The Mind's New Science (New York: Basic Books, 1985) [iii]Christopher Evans, The Micro Millennium (Washington Square Press, 1979), p. 182 [iv]Jeremy Campbell,The Improbable Machine (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1989) [v]Theodore Roszak, The Cult of Information (New York: Pantheon Books, 1986), p. 105 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 14:27:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GLRhIs017207; Mon, 16 May 2005 14:27:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GLRZiO017126; Mon, 16 May 2005 14:27:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:27:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005201c55a5e$5bf78160$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050511153805.0326e2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <200505132021.57381.knuke@sumosound.de> <004301c55802$650173a0$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <200505140715.50815.knuke@sumosound.de> Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:29:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The silence is deafening. I have been waiting impatiently for Jones or someone to respond to these posts by Knuke and speculate on how a home brew cavitating turbine, spiked with mere traces of fissionable material, can within five seconds of operation deliver a near lethal dose of radiation! Dosn't this level of performance makes the Huffman machine the Mother of all LENR devices? Someone more skilled than I in the "art of duplicating" needs to check this out! Is the silence on the subject due to the fact that every Vortex member with facilities is doing just that? Jeff P.S. I at least thought someone might imply that the account was impossible and then back up their position with some "unasailable" theorizing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Huffman" To: Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:15 AM Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - > Moin Jeff. > > The runaway events happened on the first model that I built. I did these runs > in my kitchen less than a foot away from these radioactive tiles, but I had > no clue that they were radioactive until later. While trying to get a > subsequent model to do the runaway thing again, I came up with the crazy idea > of lacing the water, thinking that it may have played a roll. I used the > geiger counter quite a bit while wiping down the tiles, but didn't turn it on > for the initial test run itself. I was in a hurry, and wanted to see what > would happen. Now I know. > > This is all in the VG archives, if you want to download all of those huge > files and run text searches. At Bill Beaty's website there used to be a > photo of the first model, torn down, and sitting on my kitchen counter. One > more word of warning though, if you go onto Bill Beaty's website, leave a > trail of breadcrumbs or make bookmarks or something so that you don't get > lost. Whenever I visit Bill's website, I always get lost for hours, if not > days. It's pretty weird in there. > > Knuke > > > Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 23:26 schrieb revtec: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Huffman" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:21 PM > > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - > > > > I reread your article in 1995 vol. 1 , no. 1of IE which concluded with your > > impending success. What happened? Didn't your next model work? I recall > > knowing about your kitchen sheathed in yellow cake tiles, but can't recall > > if you told me that or if it was mentioned in a subsequent article that I > > am yet to rediscover. The implication was that the runaway operation was > > possibly caused because the experiment was surrounded by radioactive walls. > > I don't recall that you ever indicated that you used uranium laced water to > > fuel the turbine. Was it during the runaway describe in the article that > > you suffered injury or was it during a later experiment? > > > > Jeff > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 14:37:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GLamIs022904; Mon, 16 May 2005 14:36:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GLaf3U022822; Mon, 16 May 2005 14:36:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:36:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:36:36 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c55a5f$56dd64f0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <42890001.1080208 pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Happens to the best of us. Btw, I am too thick headed to have taken offense so no apology needed on this end... 8^) Hope you feel better soon. -john -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 3:18 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Popular Science Jume 2007 Einstein" Master of the Universe" John Steck wrote: >David Hilbert is credited with the correct field equations for general >relativity five days before Einstein but never claimed priority. > >Bit big for our britches the last couple of days, eh? Any special reason >why you feel the need to be so condescending to everyone in your posts? >In general I always regarded you as a pretty smart guy. Lately you've >been quite the jackass to everyone.... WTF? > > Hmmm, maybe you're right. I've had the flu for the last week -- off and on all winter, really -- and I'm getting crabby. Apologies. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 14:52:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GLq2Is000482; Mon, 16 May 2005 14:52:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GLpuxg000430; Mon, 16 May 2005 14:51:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:51:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:52:15 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Message-ID: <33658125.1116258735 localhost> In-Reply-To: <005201c55a5e$5bf78160$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> References: <005201c55a5e$5bf78160$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========33690351==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --==========33690351========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well I can't answer either of your queries but heres a Co selling a commerical version of Knukes device. http://www.hydrodynamics.com/index.htm --On Monday, May 16, 2005 5:29 PM -0400 revtec wrote: > The silence is deafening. I have been waiting impatiently for Jones > or someone to respond to these posts by Knuke and speculate on how a > home brew cavitating turbine, spiked with mere traces of fissionable > material, can within five seconds of operation deliver a near lethal > dose of radiation! Dosn't this level of performance makes the Huffman > machine the Mother of all LENR devices? Someone more skilled than I > in the "art of duplicating" needs to check this out! > > Is the silence on the subject due to the fact that every Vortex > member with facilities is doing just that? > > Jeff > > P.S. I at least thought someone might imply that the account was > impossible and then back up their position with some "unasailable" > theorizing. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Huffman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:15 AM > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - > > >> Moin Jeff. >> >> The runaway events happened on the first model that I built. I did >> these > runs >> in my kitchen less than a foot away from these radioactive tiles, >> but I > had >> no clue that they were radioactive until later. While trying to get >> a subsequent model to do the runaway thing again, I came up with the >> crazy > idea >> of lacing the water, thinking that it may have played a roll. I >> used the geiger counter quite a bit while wiping down the tiles, but >> didn't turn it > on >> for the initial test run itself. I was in a hurry, and wanted to >> see what would happen. Now I know. >> >> This is all in the VG archives, if you want to download all of those >> huge files and run text searches. At Bill Beaty's website there >> used to be a photo of the first model, torn down, and sitting on my >> kitchen counter. > One >> more word of warning though, if you go onto Bill Beaty's website, >> leave a trail of breadcrumbs or make bookmarks or something so that >> you don't get lost. Whenever I visit Bill's website, I always get >> lost for hours, if > not >> days. It's pretty weird in there. >> >> Knuke >> >> >> Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 23:26 schrieb revtec: >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael Huffman" >> > To: >> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:21 PM >> > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - >> > >> > I reread your article in 1995 vol. 1 , no. 1of IE which concluded >> > with > your >> > impending success. What happened? Didn't your next model work? I > recall >> > knowing about your kitchen sheathed in yellow cake tiles, but can't > recall >> > if you told me that or if it was mentioned in a subsequent article >> > that > I >> > am yet to rediscover. The implication was that the runaway >> > operation > was >> > possibly caused because the experiment was surrounded by >> > radioactive > walls. >> > I don't recall that you ever indicated that you used uranium laced >> > water > to >> > fuel the turbine. Was it during the runaway describe in the >> > article > that >> > you suffered injury or was it during a later experiment? >> > >> > Jeff >> >> >> > > > > --==========33690351========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ArialWell I can't answer either = of your queries but heres a Co selling a commerical version of Knukes = device. http://www.hydrodynamics.com/index.htm --On Monday, May 16, 2005 5:29 PM -0400 revtec < wrote: > The silence is deafening. I have been waiting impatiently for Jones > or someone to respond to these posts by Knuke and speculate on how a > home brew cavitating turbine, spiked with mere traces of fissionable > material, can within five seconds of operation deliver a near lethal > dose of radiation! Dosn't this level of performance makes the Huffman > machine the Mother of all LENR devices? Someone more skilled than I > in the "art of duplicating" needs to check this out! >=20 > Is the silence on the subject due to the fact that every Vortex > member with facilities is doing just that? >=20 > Jeff >=20 > P.S. I at least thought someone might imply that the account was > impossible and then back up their position with some "unasailable" > theorizing. >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Michael Huffman" < > To: < > Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:15 AM > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - >=20 >=20 >> Moin Jeff. >>=20 >> The runaway events happened on the first model that I built. I did >> these > runs >> in my kitchen less than a foot away from these radioactive tiles, >> but I > had >> no clue that they were radioactive until later. While trying to get >> a subsequent model to do the runaway thing again, I came up with the >> crazy > idea >> of lacing the water, thinking that it may have played a roll. I >> used the geiger counter quite a bit while wiping down the tiles, but >> didn't turn it > on >> for the initial test run itself. I was in a hurry, and wanted to >> see what would happen. Now I know. >>=20 >> This is all in the VG archives, if you want to download all of those >> huge files and run text searches. At Bill Beaty's website there >> used to be a photo of the first model, torn down, and sitting on my >> kitchen counter. > One >> more word of warning though, if you go onto Bill Beaty's website, >> leave a trail of breadcrumbs or make bookmarks or something so that >> you don't get lost. Whenever I visit Bill's website, I always get >> lost for hours, if > not >> days. It's pretty weird in there. >>=20 >> Knuke >>=20 >>=20 >> Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 23:26 schrieb revtec: >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael Huffman" < >> > To: < >> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:21 PM >> > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - >> >=20 >> > I reread your article in 1995 vol. 1 , no. 1of IE which concluded >> > with > your >> > impending success. What happened? Didn't your next model work? = I > recall >> > knowing about your kitchen sheathed in yellow cake tiles, but = can't > recall >> > if you told me that or if it was mentioned in a subsequent article >> > that > I >> > am yet to rediscover. The implication was that the runaway >> > operation > was >> > possibly caused because the experiment was surrounded by >> > radioactive > walls. >> > I don't recall that you ever indicated that you used uranium laced >> > water > to >> > fuel the turbine. Was it during the runaway describe in the >> > article > that >> > you suffered injury or was it during a later experiment? >> >=20 >> > Jeff >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 --==========33690351==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 15:22:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GMMBIs019128; Mon, 16 May 2005 15:22:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GMKPjk017987; Mon, 16 May 2005 15:20:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:20:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050516171748.03ee9240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:20:05 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Pure Thought, Brains, and Artificial Intelligence In-Reply-To: <007c01c55a58$bcb29810$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <20050516170712.BZEF2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <007c01c55a58$bcb29810$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting so far, Jones. I look forward to seeing the rest. Maybe you should upload it somewhere, to preserve the formatting. I discussed this subject a little in the book, in Chapter 10. I only said a little because I only know a little. A recent issue of Scientific American had a fascinating story about brains, comparing the number of neurons and operations to a contemporary computer. Everyone knows the brain is an MPP processor, but the size of it is mind-boggling. As I recall it worked out to be something like 10^16 operations per second in the brain versus 10^8 for the fastest supercomputer. No wonder they are so far behind us. Perhaps we cannot expect any sign of real intelligence until they reach something like 6 orders of magnitude below us, plus of course it will require presently unimaginable improvements in software. I think it can be done, but I think it will take a long time. Joseph Weizenbaum wrote a famous book, "Computer Power and Human Reason -- From Judgment the Calculation," (1976) which I read in English and Japanese. It might be summarized as being a diatribe against artificial intelligence. I think it is an excellent book and it makes many important points, but fundamentally I disagree with two points: 1. First, Weizenbaum thinks that artificial intelligence can have no practical use and it might even be unethical. He picked an example which turned out to be very unfortunate from my point of view. He said that as of 1976 a great deal of effort has gone into voice-recognition, but there has been no progress, and even if they could make it work it would only take jobs away from telephone operators and other people and it would serve no larger social purpose. I depend upon voice input every day in order to write. Thousands of seriously disabled people depend upon it for their livelihood and their everyday happiness, safety and sanity. The jobs now being handled by voice input such as telephone directory lookup were demeaning and terribly boring. So he sure missed the boat on that! 2. Second, Weizenbaum thinks that artificial intelligence will never lead to anything remotely like a human mind, with the human ability to make moral judgments and so on. I certainly agree, and even if something like a mind emerges I hope we never let it make moral judgments about human behavior, even if is inclined to do so. It's bad enough having Georgia school principals apply rules blindly & mechanically, punishing a high school kid because he talks to his mother on a cell phone at lunchtime -- because she is a soldier on duty in Iraq, for crying out loud! Anyway, putting aside that diatribe, and getting back to Weizenbaum's diatribe, I think everyone agrees that computer intelligence will never be remotely similar to our own. It will be alien, and restricted in many ways. It will be -- we hope -- totally passionless and without emotional content, and without goals (other than those we set for it), ulterior motives, paranoia, or anything of that nature. Nothing like HAL. But it will still be intelligence. It will be self-aware, self-directed, and capable of rigorous abstract analysis and many other activities that we now assume are vital aspects of human intelligence. Late-model artificial intelligence programs have already independently reinvented many important early 20th century inventions, including some patents from around 1910 that were critical to the telephone industry. These computers were 90 years late, but it is only a matter of time before they catch up and begin inventing new things that we have not thought of. I think it is also only a matter of time before they learn to read x-rays, diagnose illness, cook meals, invent new physics, beat us in games other than chess, and do many other things better than people do. The sooner the better. I have read a lot of blather about how important it is to bring the "human touch" to medicine, yet most of the serious medical mistakes I have read about have been caused by simple, mechanical problems -- such as mixing of two different drugs, or prescribing a dose an order of magnitude too large -- that could easily have been prevented with proper data processing techniques. Even today would be better to leave most of this work to machinery, even if by doing so we cause doctors' skills to atrophy. I would much rather have a computer diagnose my illness correctly than have a human doctor make a mistake. I could not care less about the importance of the "human touch." All I want is to be cured. Along the same lines, the recent railroad accident in Japan would never have happened with the latest ATS control technology. The railroad company did not get around to installing the updated controllers on that segment of track. (It isn't their fault; they cannot replace their entire infrastructure overnight, and they never expected the driver to go 100 kph in this slow, local section of track.) The Atlanta subway cars are made by the same company, but they appear to be fully automatic -- as far as I can tell. The driver does not touch the controls once the train starts to move, or when it pulls into the station and stops. It would be better if all trains were fully automatic, even though I guess that makes the train driver's job boring and low skilled. If computers eventually take away all skilled work and make us as dependent as children and unable to tie our own shoes or make toast, it might be a problem. But I would still prefer that state of affairs, because I trust machines more than I trust people, and I want to reach the destination on the train safely more than I want to enhance the driver's workday experience. In Japan there has been a lot of talk lately about how things will be when the baby boomers retire to nursing homes. They may have to be treated by soulless computerized robots instead of nurses. This allegedly upsets people. NHK television has shown things like automatic Jacuzzi baths for people in wheelchairs. The people taking these baths have been interviewed (sometimes when they are submerged), and they seem perfectly content to me. I personally would WAY prefer to be scrubbed down and sprayed off by a robot than a person. It is much less embarrassing, and less of an imposition on the person. I myself would not want to spend time taking care of some old coot. The young women who do this sort of job should be coddling babies instead. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 15:33:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GMUNJQ023757; Mon, 16 May 2005 15:33:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GLglYt026829; Mon, 16 May 2005 14:42:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:42:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050516174052.03ef1cc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:42:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Newsday reports on Mallove murder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Google Alert for "cold fusion" brought me this. No solution in sight. See: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/connecticut/ny-bc-ct--coldcase0515may15,0,2239953.story?coll=ny-region-apconnecticut "Norwich police ask Henry Lee for help in solving year-old homicide" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 16:11:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GNB9OV017251; Mon, 16 May 2005 16:11:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GNB7gM017221; Mon, 16 May 2005 16:11:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:11:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ea01c55a6c$8343beb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050516170712.BZEF2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <007c01c55a58$bcb29810$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.0.3.0.2.20050516171748.03ee9240@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Pure Thought, Brains, and Artificial Intelligence Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:10:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > Interesting so far, Jones. I look forward to seeing the rest. > Maybe you should upload it somewhere, to preserve the > formatting. I am looking around for an appropriate forum on Yahoo groups but haven't found anything yet. Maybe Frank will let me co-op with his aether group for a few weeks, and put it in his files section? > I discussed this subject a little in the book, in Chapter 10. I > only said a little because I only know a little. Yes, AI does go hand-in-hand with a CF power source. Any futurologist must somehow deal with the implications of "strong AI," even if it should not materialize ... and there are many camps staking claim to certain views of strong, stronger, and oops - new dominant species. There was so much hype a decade ago with the popularity of William Gibson, and others in popular culture, but they only seemed to fuel the disappointment which became known as the "AI winter" of the next decade up to recently. The dot.bomb crash did not help much. Funding disappeared except for fuzzy logic, which is far from AI, a joke really. But now AI seems to be once again making its meme-presence known. > A recent issue of Scientific American had a fascinating story > about brains, comparing the number of neurons and operations to > a contemporary computer. Yes, but I think they were over-aggrandizing the average human capability. Also a couple of weeks ago in New Scientist is a good story about "Whatever happened to machines that think?" April 23, 2005 by Justin Mullins http://www.newscientist.com/channel/info-tech/mg18624961.700 Which is basically about Cyc. When I wrote the manuscript, I was strongly influenced by the work of Doug Lenat, an enigmatic fellow who got significant funding for a while but not nearly enough to finish the project. NS says: "After being patiently nurtured for 22 years, an artificial brain called Cyc (pronounced "psych") will be put online for the world to interact with. And it's only going to get cleverer. Opening Cyc up to the masses is expected to accelerate the rate at which it learns, giving it access to the combined knowledge of millions of people around the globe as it Hoovers up new facts from web pages, webcams and data entered manually by anyone who wants to contribute." It's kind of like Wiki-on-steroids and with a logic core, "Cyc's creator says it has developed a human trait no other AI system has managed to imitate: common sense. "I believe we are heading towards a singularity and we will see it in less than 10 years," says Doug Lenat of Cycorp, the system's creator." [ but he said the same thing 15 years ago] As Jed mentions the biggest disappoint of all, has been in **speech recognition.** (parsing, act). I thought sure, absolutely sure, that because of the positive economic incentives, we would have this important stepping stone in place by 2000, but the cheap computer power which was needed was just not there yet. It does take teraflop capability, it seems. Needless to say, that is why the recent introduction of the XBox 360 got me thinking along these same lines again. And yes... Look for a real "talker" ... not AI but a really robust machine that will pass the Turing test and more within three years... if the XBox can do the job. But alas, it seemed like the timetable for AI in the mid-90s was much more accelerated that it turned out to be, so who knows. Once all the pieces fall into place, however, people will be blown away by the implications... if it's not already too late by then to maintain our place in evolution's next shakeout and new pecking order. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 16:48:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4GNldfs005513; Mon, 16 May 2005 16:47:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4GNlMc1005361; Mon, 16 May 2005 16:47:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:47:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Diamonds no longer a girl's best friend? Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:47:10 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 16 May 2005 23:47:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4GNlIfs005259 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.physorg.com/news4123.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 17:21:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4H0LFT7024650; Mon, 16 May 2005 17:21:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4H0KxSq024501; Mon, 16 May 2005 17:20:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:20:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The seemingly circuitous behavior of hydrinos Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:19:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <41b3mb$10up5i1 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> <4lag81tmpos3uia8j927ec13smnqg56vvd@4ax.com> <008201c55a2c$df279020$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <008201c55a2c$df279020$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 17 May 2005 00:19:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4H0KpT7024370 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 16 May 2005 08:35:20 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Hey.... > >All this is true, but I think what Robin may be overlooking is >**density** not atomic mass. Atomic Mass may be slightly less in >the absolute, but density is another story altogether. Indeed, and you make an excellent point. I believe Mills had enough to measure boiling point temperature a while back, so presumably he could measure the density of the liquid. Why not write and ask him? His email address is rmills blacklightpower.com . Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 19:51:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4H2pFAs012458; Mon, 16 May 2005 19:51:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4H2p8ak012408; Mon, 16 May 2005 19:51:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:51:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <004901c55a8a$85f1f320$f5027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <005201c55a5e$5bf78160$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <33658125.1116258735@localhost> Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:45:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01C55A60.9C8C2E40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C55A60.9C8C2E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron, The cavitation products made by Hydro dynamics Inc. apparently differ = from the device used by Knuke. Dr. M.W Youds website has a vortex = device that may be closer to what Knuke worked with. Youds speculated = some " events' could occur that may be what happened to Knuke. We keep = a gieger counter handy when testing water vortex research devices at = rotational speed above 3450 RPM. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ron Wormus=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Well I can't answer either of your queries but heres a Co selling a = commerical version of Knukes device. http://www.hydrodynamics.com/index.htm --On Monday, May 16, 2005 5:29 PM -0400 revtec wrote: > The silence is deafening. I have been waiting impatiently for Jones > or someone to respond to these posts by Knuke and speculate on how a > home brew cavitating turbine, spiked with mere traces of fissionable > material, can within five seconds of operation deliver a near lethal > dose of radiation! Dosn't this level of performance makes the = Huffman > machine the Mother of all LENR devices? Someone more skilled than I > in the "art of duplicating" needs to check this out! >=20 > Is the silence on the subject due to the fact that every Vortex > member with facilities is doing just that? >=20 > Jeff >=20 > P.S. I at least thought someone might imply that the account was > impossible and then back up their position with some "unasailable" > theorizing. >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Michael Huffman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:15 AM > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - >=20 >=20 >> Moin Jeff. >>=20 >> The runaway events happened on the first model that I built. I did >> these > runs >> in my kitchen less than a foot away from these radioactive tiles, >> but I > had >> no clue that they were radioactive until later. While trying to get >> a subsequent model to do the runaway thing again, I came up with = the >> crazy > idea >> of lacing the water, thinking that it may have played a roll. I >> used the geiger counter quite a bit while wiping down the tiles, = but >> didn't turn it > on >> for the initial test run itself. I was in a hurry, and wanted to >> see what would happen. Now I know. >>=20 >> This is all in the VG archives, if you want to download all of = those >> huge files and run text searches. At Bill Beaty's website there >> used to be a photo of the first model, torn down, and sitting on my >> kitchen counter. > One >> more word of warning though, if you go onto Bill Beaty's website, >> leave a trail of breadcrumbs or make bookmarks or something so that >> you don't get lost. Whenever I visit Bill's website, I always get >> lost for hours, if > not >> days. It's pretty weird in there. >>=20 >> Knuke >>=20 >>=20 >> Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 23:26 schrieb revtec: >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael Huffman" >> > To: >> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:21 PM >> > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - >> >=20 >> > I reread your article in 1995 vol. 1 , no. 1of IE which concluded >> > with > your >> > impending success. What happened? Didn't your next model work? I > recall >> > knowing about your kitchen sheathed in yellow cake tiles, but = can't > recall >> > if you told me that or if it was mentioned in a subsequent = article >> > that > I >> > am yet to rediscover. The implication was that the runaway >> > operation > was >> > possibly caused because the experiment was surrounded by >> > radioactive > walls. >> > I don't recall that you ever indicated that you used uranium = laced >> > water > to >> > fuel the turbine. Was it during the runaway describe in the >> > article > that >> > you suffered injury or was it during a later experiment? >> >=20 >> > Jeff >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C55A60.9C8C2E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,
The cavitation products made by Hydro = dynamics=20 Inc. apparently differ from the device used by Knuke.  Dr. M.W = Youds=20 website has a vortex device that may be closer to what Knuke worked = with. Youds=20 speculated some " events' could occur that may be  what happened to = Knuke.=20 We keep a gieger counter handy when testing water vortex research = devices at=20 rotational speed above 3450 RPM.
 
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ron = Wormus
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:52 = PM
Subject: Re: Cavitation = neutrons - was:=20 Blast from the Past -

Well I can't answer either of your queries but heres a = Co=20 selling a commerical version of Knukes device.

http://www.hydrodynamics.= com/index.htm

--On=20 Monday, May 16, 2005 5:29 PM -0400 revtec <revtec@PTD.NET> = wrote:

> The=20 silence is deafening. I have been waiting impatiently for = Jones
> or=20 someone to respond to these posts by Knuke and speculate on how = a
> home=20 brew cavitating turbine, spiked with mere traces of = fissionable
>=20 material, can within five seconds of operation deliver a near = lethal
>=20 dose of radiation! Dosn't this level of performance makes the = Huffman
>=20 machine the Mother of all LENR devices? Someone more skilled than = I
> in=20 the "art of duplicating" needs to check this out!
>
> Is = the=20 silence on the subject due to the fact that every Vortex
> = member with=20 facilities is doing just that?
>
> Jeff
>
> = P.S. I=20 at least thought someone might imply that the account was
> = impossible=20 and then back up their position with some "unasailable"
>=20 theorizing.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- =
>=20 From: "Michael Huffman" <knuke sumosound.de>
> To:=20 <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:15=20 AM
> Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past = -
>
>
>> Moin Jeff.
>>
>> = The=20 runaway events happened on the first model that I built. I = did
>>=20 these
> runs
>> in my kitchen less than a foot away = from these=20 radioactive tiles,
>> but I
> had
>> no clue = that they=20 were radioactive until later. While trying to get
>> a = subsequent=20 model to do the runaway thing again, I came up with the
>>=20 crazy
> idea
>> of lacing the water, thinking that it = may have=20 played a roll. I
>> used the geiger counter quite a bit while = wiping=20 down the tiles, but
>> didn't turn it
> on
>> = for the=20 initial test run itself. I was in a hurry, and wanted to
>> = see what=20 would happen. Now I know.
>>
>> This is all in the = VG=20 archives, if you want to download all of those
>> huge files = and run=20 text searches. At Bill Beaty's website there
>> used to be a = photo of=20 the first model, torn down, and sitting on my
>> kitchen=20 counter.
> One
>> more word of warning though, if you = go onto=20 Bill Beaty's website,
>> leave a trail of breadcrumbs or make = bookmarks or something so that
>> you don't get lost. = Whenever I=20 visit Bill's website, I always get
>> lost for hours, = if
>=20 not
>> days. It's pretty weird in there.
>> =
>>=20 Knuke
>>
>>
>> Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 = 23:26=20 schrieb revtec:
>> > ----- Original Message = -----
>> >=20 From: "Michael Huffman" <knuke sumosound.de>
>> > = To:=20 <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>> > Sent: Friday, May 13, = 2005 2:21=20 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from = the=20 Past -
>> >
>> > I reread your article in = 1995 vol. 1=20 , no. 1of IE which concluded
>> > with
> = your
>>=20 > impending success. What happened? Didn't your next model work? = I
>=20 recall
>> > knowing about your kitchen sheathed in yellow = cake=20 tiles, but can't
> recall
>> > if you told me that = or if it=20 was mentioned in a subsequent article
>> > that
>=20 I
>> > am yet to rediscover. The implication was that the=20 runaway
>> > operation
> was
>> > = possibly=20 caused because the experiment was surrounded by
>> >=20 radioactive
> walls.
>> > I don't recall that you = ever=20 indicated that you used uranium laced
>> > water
>=20 to
>> > fuel the turbine. Was it during the runaway = describe in=20 the
>> > article
> that
>> > you = suffered injury=20 or was it during a later experiment?
>> >
>> = >=20 Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> =
>=20

------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C55A60.9C8C2E40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 20:51:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4H3ojfa013907; Mon, 16 May 2005 20:50:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4H3odqh013849; Mon, 16 May 2005 20:50:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:50:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <013b01c55a93$9169ce90$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <005201c55a5e$5bf78160$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <33658125.1116258735@localhost> <004901c55a8a$85f1f320$f5027841@xptower> Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:50:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At ICCF10, Dash and Chicea presented a possible answer to this anomaly in "Effects Of Hydrogen Loading By Aqueous Electrolysis On Radioactivity Of Uranium" when they reported that simple aqueous electrolytic co-deposition of hydrogen with uranium caused significant increased rates of radioactive decay of the uranium - no fusion or fission required - just increased decay. Now if simple loading **without any other power source** will increase the rate of decay, then the addition of the cavitation could possibly throw the system into a much more active regime. Had Knuke been using a steel chamber, rather than plexiglass, the energy of the x-rays would possibly not have caused his symptons, as these x-rays are generally not the higher energy variety seen in actual fission, and would have been largely shielded by steel. Knuke's experiment begs to be replicated in safe conditions, using a steel chamber with a port or thin window for monitoring radiation. Thorium, which can be obtained legally in many forms, should work just as well since we are dealing with enhanced decay, and not fissile reactions. There are actually quite a few reoprts on this anomaly in the literature with electrolysis, but of course the fear is that it could be done irresponsibly. ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay Ron, The cavitation products made by Hydro dynamics Inc. apparently differ from the device used by Knuke. Dr. M.W Youds website has a vortex device that may be closer to what Knuke worked with. Youds speculated some " events' could occur that may be what happened to Knuke. We keep a gieger counter handy when testing water vortex research devices at rotational speed above 3450 RPM. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Well I can't answer either of your queries but heres a Co selling a commerical version of Knukes device. http://www.hydrodynamics.com/index.htm --On Monday, May 16, 2005 5:29 PM -0400 revtec wrote: > The silence is deafening. I have been waiting impatiently for > Jones > or someone to respond to these posts by Knuke and speculate on > how a > home brew cavitating turbine, spiked with mere traces of > fissionable > material, can within five seconds of operation deliver a near > lethal > dose of radiation! Dosn't this level of performance makes the > Huffman > machine the Mother of all LENR devices? Someone more skilled > than I > in the "art of duplicating" needs to check this out! > > Is the silence on the subject due to the fact that every Vortex > member with facilities is doing just that? > > Jeff > > P.S. I at least thought someone might imply that the account was > impossible and then back up their position with some > "unasailable" > theorizing. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Huffman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:15 AM > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - > > >> Moin Jeff. >> >> The runaway events happened on the first model that I built. I >> did >> these > runs >> in my kitchen less than a foot away from these radioactive >> tiles, >> but I > had >> no clue that they were radioactive until later. While trying to >> get >> a subsequent model to do the runaway thing again, I came up >> with the >> crazy > idea >> of lacing the water, thinking that it may have played a roll. I >> used the geiger counter quite a bit while wiping down the >> tiles, but >> didn't turn it > on >> for the initial test run itself. I was in a hurry, and wanted >> to >> see what would happen. Now I know. >> >> This is all in the VG archives, if you want to download all of >> those >> huge files and run text searches. At Bill Beaty's website there >> used to be a photo of the first model, torn down, and sitting >> on my >> kitchen counter. > One >> more word of warning though, if you go onto Bill Beaty's >> website, >> leave a trail of breadcrumbs or make bookmarks or something so >> that >> you don't get lost. Whenever I visit Bill's website, I always >> get >> lost for hours, if > not >> days. It's pretty weird in there. >> >> Knuke >> >> >> Am Freitag, 13. Mai 2005 23:26 schrieb revtec: >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael Huffman" >> > To: >> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:21 PM >> > Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - >> > >> > I reread your article in 1995 vol. 1 , no. 1of IE which >> > concluded >> > with > your >> > impending success. What happened? Didn't your next model >> > work? I > recall >> > knowing about your kitchen sheathed in yellow cake tiles, but >> > can't > recall >> > if you told me that or if it was mentioned in a subsequent >> > article >> > that > I >> > am yet to rediscover. The implication was that the runaway >> > operation > was >> > possibly caused because the experiment was surrounded by >> > radioactive > walls. >> > I don't recall that you ever indicated that you used uranium >> > laced >> > water > to >> > fuel the turbine. Was it during the runaway describe in the >> > article > that >> > you suffered injury or was it during a later experiment? >> > >> > Jeff >> >> >> > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 16 22:37:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4H5bffa006804; Mon, 16 May 2005 22:37:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4H5bRCG006603; Mon, 16 May 2005 22:37:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:37:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: "Mark S Bilk" Subject: [OT] Animé Series With Uploading And AI Starting Now (5/16) On TV Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:13:59 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <05051622370700.27343 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The 26-episode (so far) animé "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" is replaying, one ep per night, on the (cable/satellite) Cartoon Network. It has people uploading their minds ("ghosts") into artificial bodies ("shells") and into the Net, also some autonomous AIs. Very good production values -- it's gorgeous. It's restarting from the beginning now -- Monday night -- so start taping it (it's good enough and complex enough to merit recording). The series follows the movie Ghost in the Shell, which is also worthwhile getting; it comes on the cable movie channels occasionally. http://www.tvtome.com/GhostintheShellStandAloneComplex/eplist.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 00:20:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4H7KFfa031792; Tue, 17 May 2005 00:20:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4H7KCkV031747; Tue, 17 May 2005 00:20:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:20:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:19:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7m6j81dhh0sfcdqordmtkgr7mu3k0jpr7e 4ax.com> References: <005201c55a5e$5bf78160$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <33658125.1116258735@localhost> <004901c55a8a$85f1f320$f5027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <004901c55a8a$85f1f320$f5027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 17 May 2005 07:19:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4H7K5fa031601 Resent-Message-ID: <12TF9C.A.0vH.qsZiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Mon, 16 May 2005 21:45:43 -0500: Hi Richard, Why precisely 3450 RPM? [snip] >Ron, >The cavitation products made by Hydro dynamics Inc. apparently differ from the device used by Knuke. Dr. M.W Youds website has a vortex device that may be closer to what Knuke worked with. Youds speculated some " events' could occur that may be what happened to Knuke. We keep a gieger counter handy when testing water vortex research devices at rotational speed above 3450 RPM. > >Richard [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 01:47:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4H8lTfa009788; Tue, 17 May 2005 01:47:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4H8lRxL009777; Tue, 17 May 2005 01:47:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:47:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050517084720.0093b55c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:47:20 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Linear Magnet Accelerator Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This sounds like a variation of the SMOT ball theme. Does anyone know anything about it? Are there any patents for this Keith? =========================================== Howard Johnson Witness Wants to See Linear Magnet Accelerator Developed ------------------------------------------- B.D. visited the famed Howard Johnson back in 1981 after a 1980 Science & Mechanics article featured Johnson's claim to an all- magnet motor. Having worked closely with him from that time, he would like to see the linear accelerator concept developed. by Sterling D. Allan Pure Energy Systems News B.D., who asks that his name not be publicized, met Howard Johnson back in 1981 after a 1980 Science & Mechanics article featured his all-magnet motor. He sought to pursue the development of Howard Johnson's technology, seeking to line up funding and a means to develop the technology to bring it to market. Though frustrated with Johnson's lack of cooperation and scientific rigor in proving his all-magnet motor claim, B.D. has remained impressed with the linear accelerator that he witness first-hand. "Present physics says this is impossible," says B.D., "but I saw it with my own eyes, and held it in my hands." The device takes a stationary object and accelerates it through a series of magnets, making it shoot out the other end of the magnet tunnel. "There has to be a practical application for this," says B.D., who has retired from the electronics industry after being in it for 40 years. He wasn't impressed with the magnet rotor because the stator was held by hand, when it would have been a five-dollar task to affix it in an adjustable jig. "You couldn't rule out the possible imposition of energy from the person holding the magnet oscillating it while trying to hold it still." B.D. visited Johnson again in 1982 along with an entourage that had chartered a private plane for the trip, intent on securing a licensing agreement. Johnson said he was "not interested." He said was working on a 5 kW generator version. That never happened. Then, in June, 2000, B.D. flew again to visit Johnson. "He had less then than he did in 1982," said B.D. Johnson felt bad that B.D. had gone through so much trouble to travel to meet him, only to be so let down, so he handed him some papers regarding the linear accelerator technology. That was the last time he spoke with Johnson. B.D. says he also has several documents of interest regarding Johnson's magnet motor. He has transcript copies of the trial that was held in which his magnet motor design was finally awarded a patent because of the linear accelerator prototype that was presented in court as proof of concept. He has test data from the CTEC test laboratory. Though his non-disclosure agreements with Johnson will prevent him from sharing certain things, B.D. said he would like to help move this technology forward in ways that he can. He said that he has collected tons of literature on these kinds of things, and that he would put PES Network Inc. in his will to receive it. Hopefully he will be able to do something useful with it long before then, within the scope of the agreement he had with Howard Johnson. =========================================== Having read the history of the Finsrud machine I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that is only quasi modo's who are ignorant of what is not supposed to happen that are capable of making such discoveries. The trouble is that without the scientific methodology they are incapable of bringing them to fruition. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 05:17:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HCGkfa023124; Tue, 17 May 2005 05:16:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HCGgXJ023085; Tue, 17 May 2005 05:16:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:16:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01c55ada$42949010$3e037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <005201c55a5e$5bf78160$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <33658125.1116258735@localhost> <004901c55a8a$85f1f320$f5027841@xptower> <7m6j81dhh0sfcdqordmtkgr7mu3k0jpr7e@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:15:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, The M.W.Youds website mentions patents for his device operating at 7225 RPM to achieve the result he reported. He mentioned gamma radiation present so we are careful. Our standard gas inductors run at 3450 RPM. We are working on a design for speeds to 10,500 RPM with VFD drive. Design problems with dynamic balancing , shaft bearing and mechanical seal cooling plague us. In the industrial world products must survive 50,000 hours. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 2:19 AM Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - > In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Mon, 16 May 2005 21:45:43 > -0500: > Hi Richard, > > Why precisely 3450 RPM? > [snip] >>Ron, >>The cavitation products made by Hydro dynamics Inc. apparently differ from >>the device used by Knuke. Dr. M.W Youds website has a vortex device that >>may be closer to what Knuke worked with. Youds speculated some " events' >>could occur that may be what happened to Knuke. We keep a gieger counter >>handy when testing water vortex research devices at rotational speed above >>3450 RPM. >> >>Richard > [snip] > > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 05:24:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HCNofa027354; Tue, 17 May 2005 05:23:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HCNkdQ027305; Tue, 17 May 2005 05:23:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:23:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050517122340.0097df08 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:23:40 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Linear Magnet Accelerator Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:50 am 1/05/2005 -0700, Frank Grimer wrote: > This sounds like a variation of the > SMOT ball theme. > Does anyone know anything about it? > Are there any patents for this Keith? > =========================================== > Howard Johnson Witness Wants to See Linear > Magnet Accelerator Developed > ------------------------------------------- > Thanks to the miracle of the Google search engine I've been able to answer my own request with everything on the accelerator that anyone would want to know [and some 8^) ] http://www.rexresearch.com/johnson/1johnson.htm Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 05:58:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HCwPfa018808; Tue, 17 May 2005 05:58:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HCwKke018775; Tue, 17 May 2005 05:58:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:58:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Pure Thought, Brains, and Artificial Intelligence Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 8:58:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517125813.SCGI2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Jed Rothwell > The Atlanta subway cars are made by > the same company, but they appear to be fully automatic -- as far as I can > tell. The driver does not touch the controls once the train starts to move, > or when it pulls into the station and stops. That is basicly true. The operator opens and closes the doors and engages the Automatic Train Control system. His primary responsibility is passenger safety. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 06:52:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HDphfa017748; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:51:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HDpeM2017714; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:51:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:51:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050517135133.0095df4c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:51:33 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Linear Magnet Accelerator Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:23 pm 17/05/2005 +0100, Frank Grimer wrote: >Thanks to the miracle of the Google search >engine I've been able to answer my own >request with everything on the accelerator >that anyone would want to know [and some 8^) ] > >http://www.rexresearch.com/johnson/1johnson.htm It is clear that in the case of Howard Johnson we are not dealing with some Slippery Sam of the extra mural research world, but an inventor whose "credentials appear to be impeccable". Consider the following except from the Spring Issue of Science & Mechanics. ====================================================== "AMAZING MAGNET-POWERED MOTOR" by Jorma Hyypia ====================================================== "We don't grant patents on perpetual motion machines," said the examiners at the U.S. Patent Office. "It won't work because it violates the law of Conservation of Energy," said one physicist after another. But because, inventor Howard Johnson is not the sort of man to be intimidated by such seemingly authoritative pronouncements, he now owns U.S. Patent No. 4,151,431 which describes how it is possible to generate motive power, as in a motor, using only the energy contained in the atoms of permanent magnets. That's right. Johnson has discovered how to build motors that run without an input of electricity or any other kind of external energy! The monumental nature of the invention is obvious, especially in a world facing an alarming, escalating energy shortage. Yet inventor Johnson is not rushing to peddle his creation as the end-all solution to world- wide energy problems. He has more important work to do. First, there's the need to refine his laboratory prototypes into workable practical devices -in particular a 5,000-watt electric power generator already in the building. His second and perhaps more difficult major challenge: persuade a host of skeptics that his ideas are indeed practical. Johnson, who has been coping with disbelievers for decades, can be very persuasive in a face-to-face encounter because he can not do more than merely theorize; he can demonstrate working models that unquestionably create motion using only permanent magnets. When this writer was urged by the editor of Science & Mechanics to make a thousand mile pilgrimage to Blacksburg, Virginia, to meet with the inventor, he went there as an "open-minded skeptic" and as a former research Scientist determined not to be fooled. Within two days, this former skeptic had become a believer. Here's why. Doing the Unthinkable ~ Howard Johnson refuses to view the "laws" of science as somehow sacred, so doing the unthinkable and succeeding is second nature to him. If a particular law gets in the way, he sees no harm in going around it for a while to see if there's something on the other side. Johnson explains the persistent opposition he experiences from the established scientific community this way: "Physics is a measurement science and physicists are especially determined to protect the ‘Law’ of Conservation of Energy. Thus the physicists become game wardens who tell us what laws' we can't violate. In this case they don't even know what the game is. But they are so scared that I and my associates are going to violate some of these laws, that they have to get to the pass to head us off!" The critics say Johnson offers a "free lunch" solution to energy problems, and that there can be no such thing. Johnson demurs, reminding repeatedly that he has never suggested that his invention provides something for nothing. He also points gut that no one talks about a "free lunch" when discussing extraction of enormous amounts of atomic power by means of nuclear reactors and atom bombs. In his mind, it's much the same thing. Johnson is the first to admit he doesn't actually know where the power be has tapped derives. But he postulates that the energy may be associated with spinning electrons, perhaps in the form of a "presently unnamed atomic particle." How do other physicists react to Johnson's suggestion that there may be an atomic particle so far overlooked by nuclear physicists? Says Johnson: "I guess it’s fair to say that most of them are revolted." On the other hand, a few converted scientists, including some who are associated with large and prestigious research laboratories, are intrigued enough to suggest that there should be a hunt for the answer, be it a "particle" or some other as yet unsuspected characteristic of atomic structure. This article is prefaced with the foregoing brief summary of the ongoing controversy so that, in fairness to the inventor, we might all view his claims with open minds, even if it means temporary setting aside of cherished scientific concepts until more complete explanations are forthcoming. The main question to be answered here and now is this: Does Johnson permanent magnet motor work? Before providing the answer, we need to face up to another question that undoubtedly nags in the minds of many readers: Is Johnson a bona fide researcher, or merely a "garage mechanic" mad inventor? As the following brief summary suggests, the inventor's credentials appear to be impeccable. Following seven years of college and university training, Johnson worked on atomic energy projects at Oak Ridge, did magnetics research for Burroughs company, and served as scientific consultant to Lukens Steel. He has participated in the development of medical electrical products, including injection devices. For the military he invented a ceramic muffler that makes a portable motor generator silent at 50 feet; this has been in production for the past 18 years. His contributions to the motor industry include: a hysteresis brake; non-locking brake materials for anti- skid application, new methods of curing brake linings; and a method of dissolving asbestos fibers. He has also worked on silencers for small motors, a super charger, and has perfected a 92-pole no-brush generator to go in the wheel of Lincoln automobiles as a skid control; that last item reduced the cost to one-eighth of the cost of an earlier design by utilizing metal-filled plastics for the armature and field. In all, Johnson is connected with more than 30 patents in the fields of chemistry and physics. ====================================================== Now his devices are rather complicated - almost certainly unnecessarily so. But there seems to be little doubt that they actually work - which is more than one can say for the SMOT. However, for anyone who wants to experiment the SMOT is easier to experiment with and cheaper to build. There are two critical questions which need answers. [1] Does this machine involve interaction between the gravitation/inertial level and the higher magnetic field level. [2] Is it using high level or low level strain energy in the magnets. If high level then the magnets are merely acting as batteries and one is only going to get out the energy one put in. If on the other hand the machines are involving low level interactions then the energy drawn from the magnets is being replaced by the environment. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 06:57:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HDvMfa021371; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:57:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HDv7Pd021232; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:57:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:57:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517094833.03e4a920 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:55:01 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: SciAm article on brain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The article I referred to yesterday is K. Boahen, "Neuromorphic Microchips," Scientific American, May 2005, p. 56. The relevant quote is on the first page: "The brain does not execute coded instruction; instead it activates links, or synapses, between neurons. Each such activation is equivalent to executing a digital instruction, so one can compare how many connections a brain activates every second with the number of instructions a computer executes during the same time. Synaptic activity is staggering: 10 quadrillion (10^16) neural connections a second. It would take a million Intel Pentium powered computers to match that rate -- plus a few hundred megawatts to juice them up." So computers are already within a factor of 1 million. Perhaps they will have to come within a 3 to 5 orders of magnitude before they begin to look intelligent to us. I think they will also need radically new software. My sense is that programs like Cyc will not cut the mustard. I have no idea how long it will take. Anywhere from 50 to 500 years, I suppose. Fortunately, the interim devices will be profitable, so progress toward intelligent machines seems inevitable. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 06:58:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HDwAfa022090; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:58:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HDvxrT021884; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:57:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:57:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050517135741.0099e5a4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:57:41 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Re: Pure Thought, Brains, and Artificial Intelligence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:58 am 17/05/2005 -0400, you wrote: > >> >> From: Jed Rothwell > >> The Atlanta subway cars are made by >> the same company, but they appear to be fully automatic -- as far as I can >> tell. The driver does not touch the controls once the train starts to move, >> or when it pulls into the station and stops. > >That is basicly true. The operator opens and closes the doors and engages the Automatic Train >Control system. His primary responsibility is passenger safety. In London the Victoria tube line has the same system. The man sitting at the front is the one who used to operate the door buttons at the back, i.e. the guard. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 07:19:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HEIxfa004432; Tue, 17 May 2005 07:19:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HEIvjE004401; Tue, 17 May 2005 07:18:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:18:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004001c55aeb$574b1540$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "Mark S Bilk" References: <05051622370700.27343 isis> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BOT=5D_Anim=E9_Series_With_Uploading_And_AI_Starti?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ng_Now_=285/16=29_On_TV?= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:18:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Bilk writes, > The 26-episode (so far) animé "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone > Complex" > is replaying, one ep per night, on the (cable/satellite) Cartoon > Network. > It has people uploading their minds ("ghosts") into artificial > bodies ("shells") > and into the Net, also some autonomous AIs. Very good > production values > -- it's gorgeous. It's restarting from the beginning now -- > Monday night > -- so start taping it (it's good enough and complex enough to > merit recording). > The series follows the movie Ghost in the Shell, which is also > worthwhile > getting; it comes on the cable movie channels occasionally. > http://www.tvtome.com/GhostintheShellStandAloneComplex/eplist.html For those so inclined, and who may not have Cartoon Netwrok but do have a broadband connection, there are many active bittorrent feeds carrying this, such as: http://www.snarf-it.org/?snarf=details&id=176530&PHPSESSID=2959e5fba1b17aa2d92d4c018d67e86c So get the old Azureus churning tonight... only 2.5 gigabytes.... Hey... I had to find something to do with this new 160 gigabyte SATA HD, bought on eBay for $45 !! BTW, my first HD was a whopping 20 megs and cost over $1000. I was glad to pay it after dealing with floopies for so long. Yeah, I know.... that was twenty years ago, but still. The price/performance ratio between that first one and this new one is... lets see 8000 times more storage - for about twenty times less $$ = 160,000:1 and now if you divide that by 20 years then the increased value per year is still astounding, and that doesn't include the decrease in the value of the dollar which should triple it. I don't think there has been anything which can match this phenomenal change in value in the history of manufacturing...way beyond Moore's law. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 07:56:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HEuGfa028478; Tue, 17 May 2005 07:56:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HEtmu3028000; Tue, 17 May 2005 07:55:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:55:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004701c55af0$76c0e0d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517094833.03e4a920 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:55:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > So computers are already within a factor of 1 million. Perhaps > they will have to come within a 3 to 5 orders of magnitude > before they begin to look intelligent to us. Wait a second. I hate to harp on a "silly" toy, and a hyped-up news story, largely overlooked in its ultimate impact, but consider .... Once again, consider that the real "meaning" behind the announcement of the Xbox 360 relates pecisely to this cross-comparion between man and machine.. The SciAm article says that "Synaptic activity is staggering: 10 quadrillion (10^16) neural connections a second." Yet the Xbox has can process video signals at teraflop speed. A flop is actually equal to **more than one neural connection,** probably, because a flop can be discriminating in its target data, while a neural signal cannot - it is just a war polling signal (a "ping," if you will). OK, are you with me? Now a "tera-" is 10^15... ERGO we are only a FACTOR OF TEN away in raw power, NOW in 2005, if SciAm is correct, and if one flop= one neural connection, even if Cyc doesn't work well. WE might actuall be equal already if a flop=10 neural connections. Nevertheless, of course we are many years further away in the all-important category of software unless Cyc does perform the way it was planned to (with the input of several hundred of the most brilliant computer perople on the planet). > I think they will also need radically new software. My sense is > that programs like Cyc will not cut the mustard. Perhaps. I thought this as well before talking to one of the people who graduated from the Cyc Training course and had a chance to play with the... what do you call it? it's now said to be more than a mere machine... anyway this was years ago and even then he was blown away by the surprising intelligence level. But there is just one Cyc in all the world and they are very, very restrained about discussing the capabilities. All my info is second hand as I have never been "Cyced-out" shall we say, but if you are going to do a piece on this, please try to track down and interview someone who has actually worked in Austin with the...err... beast? I think you may be surprised about what they tell you. In the terminology of systems-analysis, the key to a quantum leap, or drastic change in capability, when only incremental growth is the driving force, is what is known as an "emergent property"... which 'modus operandi' is exactly the same thing which happens in animal brains (neurons) over time, really. Let's say a chimp has 10^15 neural connections/sec and limited intelligence. Let evolution throw in ten times this many and you have your emergent property = human intelligence. Sounds too simple to be true? ... perhaps, but the only other alternative involves theology... take your pick. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 08:09:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HF94fa003829; Tue, 17 May 2005 08:09:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HF8vC6003743; Tue, 17 May 2005 08:08:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:08:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517103401.03e49db0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:07:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Moore's law for hard disks In-Reply-To: <004001c55aeb$574b1540$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <05051622370700.27343 isis> <004001c55aeb$574b1540$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >The price/performance ratio between that first one and this new one is... >lets see 8000 times more storage - for about twenty times less $$ = >160,000:1 . . . >I don't think there has been anything which can match this phenomenal >change in value in the history of manufacturing...way beyond Moore's law. That's true. It is about an order of magnitude better than the improvements in semiconductor RAM, which is the most comparable device. (They are both relatively simple, and they both have the same structure repeated millions of times, unlike devices such as CPU chips which have increased in speed and complexity as well as the number of transistors.) RAM has increased from ~64 KB to 1 GB, a factor of 16,000, for about the same price. Experts did not expect this progress. Back in the 90s the trade mags were predicting that any day now hard disks would be rendered obsolete by solid-state memory, but instead we have 1.5 GB microdisks for music players. Around 2000 someone predicted the upper limits of hard disk would be reached when it takes many hours just to format a multi-terabyte device. Sooner or later disks will be replaced by some sort of three-dimensional solid-state memory with no moving parts, but who knows when. I think many people are beginning to reach the limits of disk storage requirements. I have not filled out more than a third of a disk in several years. If I were a manufacturer trying to compete in the hard disk business, rather than increasing storage capacity I would try to differentiate my product by giving it unique characteristics. I would revive a long obsolete hard disk design I saw on a Data General MV 8000 back in the 1980s. It was a 20 MB disk with a row of multiple immobile heads on each platter. I mean the heads did not move: track to track seek time was zero. To bring that idea up to date, you would develop an array of microscopic read/write heads that covered the entire surface of the disk, with one head per track. From the Maxtor.com site, I gather that a modern disk has 16,000 tracks. If you could make an array of 1,600 heads (spread in a staggered array across the entire top surface), that would give you one-tenth the capacity of a modern disk, or perhaps 25 GB, but way faster. It could be used for Windows swap space or something like that. Average seek time for a modern disk is ~9 ms. It would be zero instead, leaving only rotational latency, around 4.2 ms. You could activate all read-write heads at the same time and format the entire disk (or erase it) in the time it takes to rotate once (8.4 ms, or 60 seconds/7,200 rpm). With a new interface you could even write data to hundreds or maybe thousands of read-write head directly from RAM with DMA. That's what the DG computer did, as I recall. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 08:35:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HFYhfa019760; Tue, 17 May 2005 08:34:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HFYfHv019734; Tue, 17 May 2005 08:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:34:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007601c55af5$eff4c390$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517094833.03e4a920 pop.mindspring.com> <004701c55af0$76c0e0d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Oops: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:34:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <_n4vN.A.R0E.Q8giCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Big oops on "tera" .... still haven't good my expresso machine installed !! tera=10^12 so we are not as close as claimed in premature post, but could still be a factor of 100-1000 away with the Xbox, depending on the flop to neural connection ratio. I still think the xbox can be "taught" to do speech and parsing rather quickly, even if we must wait for the son-of-xbox to actually match the brain's processing capability. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 08:45:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HFidfa027289; Tue, 17 May 2005 08:44:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HFiXW7027188; Tue, 17 May 2005 08:44:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:44:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JUJnO2kssl9cOiwoHo0eBkLZdLxfFF9vVPZxVicC4RPIAc7Mq5W6CgNdS/Iez18qYM0UfUWLd/ugZvJqWIU3AflM8ha7ZrgQztyJ+FzHXDr7iBlxvcbSFnzrVAUC9HZrpHLdQmPFD49Bc0zg8y02dCRjlXUw3sI48Z5D9DNS784= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:43:50 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moore's law for hard disks In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517103401.03e49db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <05051622370700.27343 isis> <004001c55aeb$574b1540$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.0.3.0.2.20050517103401.03e49db0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4HFiMfa027029 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: wouldnt work. the modern disks heat up mostly due to the head/platter interaction. if you COULD make heads that small (unlikely) the friction would melt the platter down. a multihead idea thats not quite that ambitious might be useful though. On 5/17/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > >The price/performance ratio between that first one and this new one is... > >lets see 8000 times more storage - for about twenty times less $$ = > >160,000:1 . . . > > >I don't think there has been anything which can match this phenomenal > >change in value in the history of manufacturing...way beyond Moore's law. > > That's true. It is about an order of magnitude better than the improvements > in semiconductor RAM, which is the most comparable device. (They are both > relatively simple, and they both have the same structure repeated millions > of times, unlike devices such as CPU chips which have increased in speed > and complexity as well as the number of transistors.) RAM has increased > from ~64 KB to 1 GB, a factor of 16,000, for about the same price. > > Experts did not expect this progress. Back in the 90s the trade mags were > predicting that any day now hard disks would be rendered obsolete by > solid-state memory, but instead we have 1.5 GB microdisks for music > players. Around 2000 someone predicted the upper limits of hard disk would > be reached when it takes many hours just to format a multi-terabyte device. > Sooner or later disks will be replaced by some sort of three-dimensional > solid-state memory with no moving parts, but who knows when. > > I think many people are beginning to reach the limits of disk storage > requirements. I have not filled out more than a third of a disk in several > years. If I were a manufacturer trying to compete in the hard disk > business, rather than increasing storage capacity I would try to > differentiate my product by giving it unique characteristics. I would > revive a long obsolete hard disk design I saw on a Data General MV 8000 > back in the 1980s. It was a 20 MB disk with a row of multiple immobile > heads on each platter. I mean the heads did not move: track to track seek > time was zero. > > To bring that idea up to date, you would develop an array of microscopic > read/write heads that covered the entire surface of the disk, with one head > per track. From the Maxtor.com site, I gather that a modern disk has 16,000 > tracks. If you could make an array of 1,600 heads (spread in a staggered > array across the entire top surface), that would give you one-tenth the > capacity of a modern disk, or perhaps 25 GB, but way faster. It could be > used for Windows swap space or something like that. Average seek time for a > modern disk is ~9 ms. It would be zero instead, leaving only rotational > latency, around 4.2 ms. You could activate all read-write heads at the same > time and format the entire disk (or erase it) in the time it takes to > rotate once (8.4 ms, or 60 seconds/7,200 rpm). With a new interface you > could even write data to hundreds or maybe thousands of read-write head > directly from RAM with DMA. That's what the DG computer did, as I recall. > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 09:04:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HG3nfa011200; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:03:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HG3eKT011124; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:03:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:03:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Oops: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:06:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <007601c55af5$eff4c390$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <_5e14C.A.jtC.aXhiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jones, A flop is a floating point operation, I don't know how you/they get from one flop to the action of a neuron. It's probably closer to 100 flops/neuron, maybe much more. I'm guessing the first hack for xbox+ will be simulating nuclear bombs, expect a rush order from Iran shortly ( Mohammad dude, final fantasy _rocks_ ) Still no espresso love, huh? Do what I do, and just eat the beans. Dipped in chocolate, they're quite delicious. Plus, unlike the solution form, the caffeine is slowly released and gives you a much more pleasant lift. It's easy to stop, and you don't get headaches. It's also easier on the stomach. OTOH it's easy to eat a big handful of them, then you find yourself organizing the sock draw by thickness,color, and wear ... at 2am. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 11:35 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Oops: SciAm article on brain Big oops on "tera" .... still haven't good my expresso machine installed !! tera=10^12 so we are not as close as claimed in premature post, but could still be a factor of 100-1000 away with the Xbox, depending on the flop to neural connection ratio. I still think the xbox can be "taught" to do speech and parsing rather quickly, even if we must wait for the son-of-xbox to actually match the brain's processing capability. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 09:11:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HGAhfa016059; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:10:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HG7TuO013465; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:07:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:07:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:02:15 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Message-ID: <15269953.1116324135 localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517094833.03e4a920 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517094833.03e4a920 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A nice overview (~200pages) of the brain and the emerging science of consciousness is: "Stairway to the mind" By Alwyn Scott; 1995 Copernicus in which he discusses the non-linear emergance of the mind from brain function. paraphrasing... .......How is the observed activity of the brain related to the activity of its consitituent neurons? The neo cortex is composed of ~ 10 billion neurons, each of which has 10,000 input connections which equates to an immense number (10exp110) raised to the10exp16 th power or the immense number (10exp110) multiplied by itself ten thousand trillion times! This is a combinatorial barrier that is much larger than those between physics & chenistry or between chemistry & biochemistry........ --On Tuesday, May 17, 2005 9:55 AM -0400 Jed Rothwell wrote: > The article I referred to yesterday is K. Boahen, "Neuromorphic > Microchips," Scientific American, May 2005, p. 56. The relevant quote > is on the first page: > > "The brain does not execute coded instruction; instead it activates > links, or synapses, between neurons. Each such activation is > equivalent to executing a digital instruction, so one can compare how > many connections a brain activates every second with the number of > instructions a computer executes during the same time. Synaptic > activity is staggering: 10 quadrillion (10^16) neural connections a > second. It would take a million Intel Pentium powered computers to > match that rate -- plus a few hundred megawatts to juice them up." > > So computers are already within a factor of 1 million. Perhaps they > will have to come within a 3 to 5 orders of magnitude before they > begin to look intelligent to us. I think they will also need > radically new software. My sense is that programs like Cyc will not > cut the mustard. I have no idea how long it will take. Anywhere from > 50 to 500 years, I suppose. Fortunately, the interim devices will be > profitable, so progress toward intelligent machines seems inevitable. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 09:31:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HGUvfa030192; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:30:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HGUY7s029754; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:30:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:30:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428A1C14.8010002 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:30:12 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moore's law for hard disks References: <05051622370700.27343 isis> <004001c55aeb$574b1540$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.0.3.0.2.20050517103401.03e49db0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >wouldnt work. the modern disks heat up mostly due to the head/platter >interaction. if you COULD make heads that small (unlikely) the >friction would melt the platter down. a multihead idea thats not >quite that ambitious might be useful though. > > Conventional (floating head) fixed-head disks did, indeed, completely cover the disk with heads; they didn't just have one row of heads. That, by itself, should require nothing new. Such disks were manufactured by a number of companies at one time, not just DG. The problem, of course, was that even with the disk surface totally plastered with heads, the fact that each head has many times the (physical) surface area of the actual read/write gap made it impossible for fixed-head track density to approach the track density of a moving-head disk. And, of course, the cost of the fixed-head disk tended to higher IIRC -- thousands of heads cost more than a single arm and stepper motor. ("Microscopic" heads would require microscopic read/write gaps, and if you could do that for fixed heads you could do the same with moving heads, and one might speculate that fixed heads would again fall far behind in the density race.) I've occasionally wondered why fixed-head disks fell by the wayside, along with magnetic drums. I suppose density and cost considerations were too much for both of those approaches; the moving head disk, with its unavoidable variable read/write speed and seek delays, is just too cheap and too dense by comparison. I have a fuzzy memory of an old fixed-head disk from Dec that could store 4K bytes (can that possibly be correct?). Even at that time it was pretty tiny compared to the moving-head washing machine drives. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 09:49:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HGnPfa009049; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:49:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HGn7QD008912; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:49:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:49:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Magnetic Storage (Was: [OT] =?ISO-8859-1?B?QW5pbek=?= Series) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:48:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050517164828.DPPN2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > BTW, my first HD was a whopping 20 megs and cost over $1000. Hah! In 1976 I paid $30,000 for a 1 Mbyte hard drive for a 911 dispatch center. :-Ţ BTW, I am involved in a digital video security system procurement for MARTA which will involve multiple storage area networks (SAN). This report: http://www.berghell.com/whitepapers/Storage%20Costs.pdf predicts terabyte drives below $100 in mid 2007 and below $10 in mid 2011. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 10:01:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HH0Ifs016408; Tue, 17 May 2005 10:01:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HGYoKI000342; Tue, 17 May 2005 09:34:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:34:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c301c55afe$43a92a00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517094833.03e4a920 pop.mindspring.com> <15269953.1116324135@localhost> Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:34:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Wormus, >A nice overview (~200pages) of the brain and the emerging science >of consciousness is: > "Stairway to the mind" By Alwyn Scott; 1995 Copernicus Here is a much more optimistic assessment (from the perspective of the AI advocate), where the writer (1996) thinks that one teraflop = one human brain http://www.rfreitas.com/Nano/TheFutureOfComputers--Analog--March1996.htm I think that is way too optimistic (and it is in Analog) therefore I am still googling to see if anyone other than SciAm, with University credentials, has in the past few years, looked into this cross-comparison. By the way, the 10^16 would be 10 petaflops. Sounds kinda like the DAs summation in the Michael Jackson trial summation. Anyway, the problem is equating a flop with a ping. Keith seems to think that the synapse-ping is more potent, and that the cross-comparison works out to100 flops/synapse-ping. This is a crucial determinant in any cross-comparison. My prior best guess on this was the reverse and more like to10 synapse-ping/flop. In the mean time, I'm trying Keith's caffeine-fix solution. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 10:11:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HHB5fa023332; Tue, 17 May 2005 10:11:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HH9NSk022190; Tue, 17 May 2005 10:09:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:09:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:09:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517170906.EOBW2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > The SciAm article says that "Synaptic activity is staggering: 10 > quadrillion (10^16) neural connections a second." These types of comparisons with electronics are meaningless. Each neuron has over 100 dendrites and each dendrite might touch a different neuron. Whether a cell fires depends on when it fired last, how many dendrites are acting upon it and the surface area of the dendrite. And, while whether the number of neurons might not increase, dendrite connectivity *can* change. There is no way to compare a brain to a computer: http://www.cochrane.org.uk/opinion/articles/intelligenceandlife.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 10:38:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HHcIfa008695; Tue, 17 May 2005 10:38:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HHcGxZ008666; Tue, 17 May 2005 10:38:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:38:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517122426.03e505e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:44:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Moore's law for hard disks In-Reply-To: References: <05051622370700.27343 isis> <004001c55aeb$574b1540$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.0.3.0.2.20050517103401.03e49db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen will not spare us petty details: >wouldnt work. the modern disks heat up mostly due to the head/platter >interaction. Ah, then we must go even more retro, and lift the array of read write heads so far above the platter, you can see a crack of light between them. By the way, this "array" would be another disk, the same size as the platter. I suppose it would make more sense to spin the platter, but it might be more fun to try to spin both of them, in opposite directions. Kind of hard to imagine how you interface . . . Anyway, let's jack up the number to 16,000, because the separation greatly reduces the amount of data that can be written per track. > if you COULD make heads that small (unlikely) the . . . I have not seen a read write head for a while, but they looked pretty small to me. One article described the modern read-write head as being "almost too small to be seen." Surely we could fit 16,000 in the space of a modern platter? What the point of all this research into nanotech if we cannot even do that? The idea would be to fabricate thousands integrated together on one disk, with some sort of lithographic technique. The component size would still be gigantic compared to an IC. >. . . friction would melt the platter down. Details, details! Learn a lesson from Microsoft. You can finesse this by calling it a feature: Rapid Secure Thermal Data Erasing. A scene at the Microsoft Cafe: "Waiter! There's a fly in my soup." "Please sir, keep your voice down: everyone will be wanting one." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 11:13:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HICjfa028127; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:12:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HIChUr028114; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:12:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:12:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:12:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517181234.HEMI2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <339uRD.A.O3G.aQjiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Terry Blanton >There is no way to compare a brain to a computer: > > http://www.cochrane.org.uk/opinion/articles/intelligenceandlife.php There is an ironic error in the cited article: "Micro-machines and nano-technology will most likely create the next major advance that sees are partial, and then full, exclusion from machine life." The word 'are' should be 'our', a likely voice recog error? :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 11:18:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HIIFfa031397; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:18:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HIIETG031380; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:18:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:18:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010801c55b0c$c8f37220$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050517170906.EOBW2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:18:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > These types of comparisons with electronics are meaningless. ...Hmm... "meaning" like beauty... may exist in the mind of the beholder, and several intelligent perspectives on this subject can coexist while differing markedly on the meaning each assigns to these efforts at cross-comparison. ... not unlike many diverse and controversial subjects we are touching on these days... > http://www.cochrane.org.uk/opinion/articles/intelligenceandlife.php But can you really trust anyone so obsessive as to give a word count ;-) Actually this is an interesting article, but the experts differ, and though one should be careful about siding with SciAm just because they are SciAm, that article seems to be a decent overall appraisal - even if it was instantly "dated" by the introduction of the XBox. In the end, once AI arrives, even if it is not "human" intelligence - because it is a little "too perfect" and a little too uncreative, and a little too whatever, it is my feeling that the former nay-sayers will be amazed at how similar was the underlying maturation process (i.e. many layers of evolved connections and/or "software" = "learned rules" = memes). In looking at the "manufactured way" compared to the natural way, there is tremendous underlying similarity - even though the materials used in the connections themselves are markedly different. i.e. semiconductors and wires vs. potassium channels and ionic membranes. Jones Word count = 316 words and a few not-too-sures From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 11:48:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HIlWfa018336; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:47:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HIlOiM018284; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:47:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:47:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:48:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <15269953.1116324135 localhost> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good point, Ron. Each of those neurons are acting in parallel, all functioning simultaneously. Trying to simulate this with a single threaded machine is just not practical. Another sort of architecture is required, like maybe using carbon rather than silicon *grin* Sort of like nanotechnology. When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. I remember as an undergradute speculating on a mixed mode analog/digital machine, as a precursor to a dedicated AI engine. You might be able to prototype such a machine on one of those fancy programmable chips they have now (ASIC?) Something simple but massively paralleled is essential. BTW, I have no philosophical problem with implementing consciousness on silicon rather than carbon, I think it just emerges naturally from certain types of massively parallel computing systems. Like life itself, it just _has_ to happen, it can't _not_ happen if you got the right circumstances and enough time. K. -----Original Message----- From: Ron Wormus [mailto:protech frii.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 12:02 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain A nice overview (~200pages) of the brain and the emerging science of consciousness is: "Stairway to the mind" By Alwyn Scott; 1995 Copernicus in which he discusses the non-linear emergance of the mind from brain function. paraphrasing... .......How is the observed activity of the brain related to the activity of its consitituent neurons? The neo cortex is composed of ~ 10 billion neurons, each of which has 10,000 input connections which equates to an immense number (10exp110) raised to the10exp16 th power or the immense number (10exp110) multiplied by itself ten thousand trillion times! This is a combinatorial barrier that is much larger than those between physics & chenistry or between chemistry & biochemistry........ --On Tuesday, May 17, 2005 9:55 AM -0400 Jed Rothwell wrote: > The article I referred to yesterday is K. Boahen, "Neuromorphic > Microchips," Scientific American, May 2005, p. 56. The relevant quote > is on the first page: > > "The brain does not execute coded instruction; instead it activates > links, or synapses, between neurons. Each such activation is > equivalent to executing a digital instruction, so one can compare how > many connections a brain activates every second with the number of > instructions a computer executes during the same time. Synaptic > activity is staggering: 10 quadrillion (10^16) neural connections a > second. It would take a million Intel Pentium powered computers to > match that rate -- plus a few hundred megawatts to juice them up." > > So computers are already within a factor of 1 million. Perhaps they > will have to come within a 3 to 5 orders of magnitude before they > begin to look intelligent to us. I think they will also need > radically new software. My sense is that programs like Cyc will not > cut the mustard. I have no idea how long it will take. Anywhere from > 50 to 500 years, I suppose. Fortunately, the interim devices will be > profitable, so progress toward intelligent machines seems inevitable. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 11:55:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HIseg8022226; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:54:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HIsaPZ022192; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:54:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:54:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=odFFPFtWIZt5MSpiP46CNrZdy3fXwsF1D3SKvqVtOI041whkw1ruUcJ0LVgw1njdmYTt2Dq8y9LF27Q9RDCp35Of1yGy2tnQSR82iDQohZ2JWXyQqCBHPuCuzhfsjQGRxLGu5HPsc/qiy9RV2kpi1PcEqJAkqgkEHPmAI6mPJks= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:54:27 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moore's law for hard disks In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517122426.03e505e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <05051622370700.27343 isis> <004001c55aeb$574b1540$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.0.3.0.2.20050517103401.03e49db0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050517122426.03e505e0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4HIsYg8022136 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ammend that. yes, the heads are pretty small. the hookup wires though... that might be a problem. and yeah, that sounds like a "feature" microsoft would add. of course, remember, since the platter changes size dramatically as it heats up, the array of read heads would have to be able to expand and contract to match as well. so you would STILL have to have some kind of method of moving them. seperately. On 5/17/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen will not spare us petty details: > > >wouldnt work. the modern disks heat up mostly due to the head/platter > >interaction. > > Ah, then we must go even more retro, and lift the array of read write heads > so far above the platter, you can see a crack of light between them. By the > way, this "array" would be another disk, the same size as the platter. I > suppose it would make more sense to spin the platter, but it might be more > fun to try to spin both of them, in opposite directions. Kind of hard to > imagine how you interface . . . > > Anyway, let's jack up the number to 16,000, because the separation greatly > reduces the amount of data that can be written per track. > > > if you COULD make heads that small (unlikely) the . . . > > I have not seen a read write head for a while, but they looked pretty small > to me. One article described the modern read-write head as being "almost > too small to be seen." Surely we could fit 16,000 in the space of a modern > platter? What the point of all this research into nanotech if we cannot > even do that? The idea would be to fabricate thousands integrated together > on one disk, with some sort of lithographic technique. The component size > would still be gigantic compared to an IC. > > >. . . friction would melt the platter down. > > Details, details! Learn a lesson from Microsoft. You can finesse this by > calling it a feature: Rapid Secure Thermal Data Erasing. A scene at the > Microsoft Cafe: > > "Waiter! There's a fly in my soup." > > "Please sir, keep your voice down: everyone will be wanting one." > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 12:01:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HJ0TgQ027918; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:01:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HIlp4F018441; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:47:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:47:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517184728.IWRI2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > ...Hmm... "meaning" like beauty... may exist in the mind of the > beholder, and several intelligent perspectives on this subject can > coexist while differing markedly on the meaning each assigns to > these efforts at cross-comparison. Conceded (did I spell that right? ) How did you get to be so smart in so few years? > But can you really trust anyone so obsessive as to give a word > count ;-) Judicial, if he is being paid by the word. Which reminds me, in honor of release of H2G2, I am reading "Salmon of a Doubt", a must read if you're a DNA (1952-2001) fan: http://www.phnet.fi/public/mamaa1/adams.htm > Actually this is an interesting article, but the experts differ, > and though one should be careful about siding with SciAm just > because they are SciAm, that article seems to be a decent overall > appraisal - even if it was instantly "dated" by the introduction > of the XBox. SciAm rarely gets it right. It is truly a reflection of scientific opinion and prejudices. Well named, I suppose. > In the end, once AI arrives, even if it is not "human" > intelligence - because it is a little "too perfect" and a little > too uncreative, and a little too whatever, it is my feeling that > the former nay-sayers will be amazed at how similar was the > underlying maturation process (i.e. many layers of evolved > connections and/or "software" = "learned rules" = memes). In > looking at the "manufactured way" compared to the natural way, > there is tremendous underlying similarity - even though the > materials used in the connections themselves are markedly > different. i.e. semiconductors and wires vs. potassium channels > and ionic membranes. Eloquent; however, IMO, we will not recognize the world 100, even 50 years from now. > Word count = 316 words and a few not-too-sures $3.16 enclosed. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 12:04:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HJ4dg8030931; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:04:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HJ3oRQ030535; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:03:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:03:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=j3Mz5XrC5DQWra7lN2u8VVrQzJuHidbnGoIcLYurzqILQJw8sVTAknsXHAUimfA79BKthd/JF4nKV7WEow0u0WzBY52yg7QOWHa4nVr+xGO9/3ZF2FSs5IUjEj8u4tC12H8CcmWbkrj4Qq8MlXEVe7xHQs7vK1EGVl7oBwDJtBc= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:02:43 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain In-Reply-To: <00c301c55afe$43a92a00$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517094833.03e4a920 pop.mindspring.com> <15269953.1116324135 localhost> <00c301c55afe$43a92a00$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4HJ3fg8030384 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: jonas, a video proccessor is drastically different from other forms of computing devices. and it doesnt really move that fast. thats based in large part on teh way the algorhithams work in creating the graphic image. its very specialized. On 5/17/05, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ron Wormus, > > >A nice overview (~200pages) of the brain and the emerging science > >of consciousness is: > > > "Stairway to the mind" By Alwyn Scott; 1995 Copernicus > > Here is a much more optimistic assessment (from the perspective of > the AI advocate), > where the writer (1996) thinks that one teraflop = one human brain > http://www.rfreitas.com/Nano/TheFutureOfComputers--Analog--March1996.htm > > I think that is way too optimistic (and it is in Analog) therefore > I am still googling to see if anyone other than SciAm, with > University credentials, has in the past few years, looked into > this cross-comparison. By the way, the 10^16 would be 10 > petaflops. Sounds kinda like the DAs summation in the Michael > Jackson trial summation. > > Anyway, the problem is equating a flop with a ping. Keith seems to > think that the synapse-ping is more potent, and that the > cross-comparison works out to100 flops/synapse-ping. > > This is a crucial determinant in any cross-comparison. My prior > best guess on this was the reverse and more like to10 > synapse-ping/flop. > > In the mean time, I'm trying Keith's caffeine-fix solution. > > Jones > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 12:06:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HJ5bg8031455; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:05:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HJ5Smg031397; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:05:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:05:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:05:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517190511.JVLM2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Terry Blanton > Eloquent; however, IMO, we will not recognize the world 100, even 50 years from now. Damn. I was so engrossed trying to figure out how much to pay Jonesee that I left off my DNA quote (you noticed he was born the year Crick, Watson, et.al. determined the double helix structure, right?): "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 12:13:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HJD6g8004182; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:13:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HJD0nV004108; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:13:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:13:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41do9c$8u4npk mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,114,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="300048180:sNHT13592606" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:12:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton ... I've been pondering whether to renew my SciAm subscription. Hmmm, maybe not. > "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody > discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is > here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by > something even more bizarre and inexplicable. > > There is another theory which states that this has > already happened. " > Sounds like something Douglas Adams would have said. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWors.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 12:37:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HJUcgm014135; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:36:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HJGOEG006346; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:16:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:16:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: What's the deal with redox batteries? Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:16:07 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF52A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What's the deal with redox batteries? Thread-Index: AcVbFOFsBYiTOwKnS5qVGqEpOm2U3g== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2005 19:16:09.0780 (UTC) FILETIME=[E1ECE740:01C55B14] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4HJGIg8006225 Resent-Message-ID: <7arvRC.A.4iB.HMkiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given the amount of published enthusiasm about redox flow batteries, you'd think we'd all be driving vanadium battery electric cars by now. Instead, despite promises of commercialization, I encounter nothing but phone numbers and e-mails that go unanswered. The relevant businesses seem to producing 'vaporware' instead of real cells. Anybody got specs for that iron redox cell ( Trunov)? I'm tempted to build one for myself. It's incredible that such a powerful technology stands unused as yet. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 12:39:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HJccg8018484; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:38:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HJcSx1018411; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:38:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:38:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517153525.03e785c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:36:02 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Sonofusion page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5mPBND.A.hfE.zgkiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://members.nuvox.net/~on.jwclymer/snf/ This includes a 1982 patent. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 12:59:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HJwqGM029640; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:58:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HJwlxf029589; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:58:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:58:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:53:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517195332.MIVD2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: > Sounds like something Douglas Adams would have said. ;-) Uh, like, yeah, Douglas Noel Adams, DNA. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 13:06:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HK5dGM001148; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:05:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HK4fR2000744; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:04:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:04:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Mathias Bage X-X-Sender: mathias viggo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moore's law for hard disks In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517103401.03e49db0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: References: <05051622370700.27343 isis> <004001c55aeb$574b1540$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.0.3.0.2.20050517103401.03e49db0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > > I think many people are beginning to reach the limits of disk storage > requirements. I have not filled out more than a third of a disk in several > years. If I were a manufacturer trying to compete in the hard disk business, > rather than increasing storage capacity I would try to differentiate my > product by giving it unique characteristics. I would revive a long obsolete > hard disk design I saw on a Data General MV 8000 back in the 1980s. It was a > 20 MB disk with a row of multiple immobile heads on each platter. I mean the > heads did not move: track to track seek time was zero. Almost every mainframe manufacturer had fixed head disks, starting (I think) in the late sixties/early seventies. Most PC's still can't match the I/O capacity of a fast twenty-year-old mainframe. For that, PC manufacturers would have to add more capable backplanes/buses and external I/O processors, as well as fixed head disks etc etc. > > To bring that idea up to date, you would develop an array of microscopic > read/write heads that covered the entire surface of the disk, with one head > per track. From the Maxtor.com site, I gather that a modern disk has 16,000 > tracks. If you could make an array of 1,600 heads (spread in a staggered > array across the entire top surface), that would give you one-tenth the > capacity of a modern disk, or perhaps 25 GB, but way faster. It could be used > for Windows swap space or something like that. Average seek time for a modern > disk is ~9 ms. It would be zero instead, leaving only rotational latency, > around 4.2 ms. You could activate all read-write heads at the same time and > format the entire disk (or erase it) in the time it takes to rotate once (8.4 > ms, or 60 seconds/7,200 rpm). With a new interface you could even write data > to hundreds or maybe thousands of read-write head directly from RAM with DMA. > That's what the DG computer did, as I recall. > > - Jed > I would love to see this development in disk technology! /Mathias From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 13:16:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HKFfGM006725; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:15:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HKEfgi006186; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:14:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:14:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43ar6j$rgo62t mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,115,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="923539549:sNHT1289342982" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:13:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton ... > > From: > > > Sounds like something Douglas Adams would have said. ;-) > > Uh, like, yeah, Douglas Noel Adams, DNA. Learn somthing new every day! Thanks for the "DNA" clarification. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 13:28:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HKRoGM014489; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:27:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HKRhOG014409; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:27:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:27:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <036201c55b1e$d4f1a580$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050517190511.JVLM2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:27:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" < > Damn. I was so engrossed trying to figure out how much to pay > Jonesee that I left off my DNA quote (you noticed he was born > the year Crick, Watson, et.al. determined the double helix > structure, right?): Excellent quote. Plus this query caused a blinding flash of remembrance about a prior & typically long-winded & probably boring posting (boring to the non-Illuminated, shall we say) - which was actually a DNA obit (or is that orbit): >From the elephantine memory of my new 160 gig HD, which I will one-day incorporate into my new alter ego, the son-of-Xbox massively parallel new-me, when the time arrives for the final transmogrification: [count zero; start word count] Since posting an off-the-wall idea yesterday, inspired by a Pacific Northwest National Laboratory news release about "DNA information transfer," a little bit of synchronicity struck. Well, maybe it wasn't really that unusual since the original poster of the following thread on Slashdot and myself undoubtedly were inspired by the same story, but anyway an avalanche of input followed on that forum (several hundred posts in one day) that can be read at: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/06/0229223&mode=thread&tid=126 Some of the following commentary is inspired from this ongoing thread. In typical surfer fashion, from one of these posts I was led to a long-forgotten reminiscence of Douglas Adams, whose writing went way beyond far-out humor and inspired many things that once seemed terribly bizarre then, but are more commonplace today - almost taken for granted. William Gibson and Robert Forward were Sci-Fi visionaries similarly gifted with extraordinary foresight, but lacking Adams humor. Thankfully Gibson is still alive and even has his own internet blog these days. In Douglas Adams' (Douglas Noel Adams=DNA) "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", a race of intelligent beings from an advanced civilization build a supercomputer, "Deep Thought" in order to answer the question, "What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?" DT computed for 7.5 million years, and finally produced the answer, which is "42". Adams died in May, 2001 but long before, pundits had tried to find some hidden meaning in "42." I wonder if it had any connection to decoding the information in (artificial) DNA strands using the four amino acids known as GATC and their positions as 4-base words. I'll look to see if this question is answered on Slashdot later, as that thread seems to have struck a giant nerve - a meme nerve, so to speak. Adams was also an internet pioneer and an "info junkie" who believed something extraordinary was created when people pooled experiences and information over the internet. He said part of the internet's extraordinary power was the fact that it "evolved as an organic entity, a bottom-up design rather than being hierarchically controlled from above". The idea that hat humans could have even been "created" to carry a message across time in DNA, was definitely an implication of D.N.A.'s work but others have expressed the sentiment in more detail. And for those who want to get really crazy with modern prophecy that derives from ancient prophecy, and realizing that many ancient civilizations, especially the ancient Egyptians, believed that humans came from Orion, consider "42" in that context. M-42 or Messier object 42, is a nebulae in the Orion constellation. http://www.m-42.com/images/orionmos.png Was this very spot the remnant of a long lost star in Orion - our "ancestral" home, or is it all just the further reverberations of some deeply ingrained meme? What is a meme? First coined by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene," a meme is the extrasensory counterpart to a gene - a idea, behavior or skill that can be transferred from one person to another by imitation: stories, religions, inventions, even music. Many consider the meme to be the most important explanatory concept since DNA or the gene. The key to appreciating the wide impact of memes, and what separates them from the traditional theories of cultural evolution, is *continuity* over time - the meme is a replicator. The first replicator is of course the gene. The second replicator is the meme and it exists now NOT for human culture nor for any more immediate reason than its own survival. It can work with or even against the gene, because it has crossed over a "complexity barrier" to become its own self-sustaining entity. Coincidentally or not, Dawkins was a big fan of Adams - and RD's wife, Lalla Ward, is the former Dr. Who sidekick, the lovely Romana. They met at a party held by Douglas Adams, who himself was a former Dr. Who scriptwriter. Also mentioned in the numerous Slashdot threads is a Star Trek episode "The Chase " in which Dr. Galen, Captain Picards old Archaeology professor, found genetic data-blocks from various species around the galaxy stored in the junk portion of each species DNA, including our own. When a sufficient number of these data blocks were put together it completed a stellar map, identifying the precise location of the original origin of life. The jury is still out on whether it was M-42, and even on the Panspermia Theory [panspermia.org], but many of us believe that there must be lots of intelligence out there - vastly older and vastly more advance than we are. >From other posts on Slashdot: "The idea of storing and transmitting information via DNA was also proposed by Jaron Lanier in the Y2K issue of the NYT magazine. The NYT was running a contest to come up with a "time capsule" that would last till Y3K and asked various prominent scientists, architects etc. how they would make something that would last and would be easily found by future generations. Lanier proposed encoding a message in the DNA of cockroaches and then letting them reproduce naturally in the wild. In a thousand years they'd be everywhere! (His idea didn't win, a more conventional capsule with physical records was selected). Also in various science fiction books (Greg Bear) messages were encoded in people's DNA. This info transfer idea was also proposed by David E.H. Jones in his Daedalus column (which now appears in Nature). His article on 31 January, 1985, entitled "Archival Junk" discusses the use of DNA to encode the essence of human culture in case of another Dark Age. The article also appears in his compendium, The Further Inventions of Daedalus (Oxford University Press, 1999)." I love it when synchronicity strikes! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 13:50:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HKniJX027105; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:49:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HKnfbI027070; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:49:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:49:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41lf57$11btmf8 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,115,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1119803880:sNHT14238062" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:49:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" ... > From other posts on Slashdot: "The idea of storing > and transmitting information via DNA was also > proposed by Jaron Lanier in the Y2K issue of the > NYT magazine. The NYT was running a contest to come > up with a "time capsule" that would last till Y3K > and asked various prominent scientists, architects > etc. how they would make something that would last > and would be easily found by future generations. > Lanier proposed encoding a message in the DNA > of cockroaches and then letting them reproduce > naturally in the wild. In a thousand years they'd be > everywhere! (His idea didn't win, a more > conventional capsule with physical records was selected). Also in various science fiction books > (Greg Bear) messages were encoded in people's DNA. Mr Lanier chose the wrong species! When we get a little better at mapping our human genomes we may ultimately find embedded somewhere within those strands the following data: Property of: xxx, All rights reserved. Version Number: xxx Last Version Upgrade Date: xxx Wouldn't that be a hoot. It will probably get classified and never see the light of day. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson ...and speaking of ORION... www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 14:02:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HL2MJX002654; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:02:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HL2Djm002543; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:02:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:02:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:04:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <036201c55b1e$d4f1a580$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Needless to say, the aptly named Jones has eschewed my cautionary advice and eaten a whole handful of those delicious chocolate espresso beans. Fasten your safety belts, Vo, your collective inboxes are in for a lumpy ride. BTW, regarding my earlier post, we already have a massively paralleled computer system. It's called the Internet. The trick is to communicate with this vast planetary intelligence. Rather like a brain cell trying to talk to you. It does already have a rudimentary ear and mouth, some call it google. Let evolution work on this system a bit more... looks promising. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:27 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain From: "Terry Blanton" < > Damn. I was so engrossed trying to figure out how much to pay > Jonesee that I left off my DNA quote (you noticed he was born > the year Crick, Watson, et.al. determined the double helix > structure, right?): Excellent quote. Plus this query caused a blinding flash of remembrance about a prior & typically long-winded & probably boring posting (boring to the non-Illuminated, shall we say) - which was actually a DNA obit (or is that orbit): >From the elephantine memory of my new 160 gig HD, which I will one-day incorporate into my new alter ego, the son-of-Xbox massively parallel new-me, when the time arrives for the final transmogrification: [count zero; start word count] Since posting an off-the-wall idea yesterday, inspired by a Pacific Northwest National Laboratory news release about "DNA information transfer," a little bit of synchronicity struck. Well, maybe it wasn't really that unusual since the original poster of the following thread on Slashdot and myself undoubtedly were inspired by the same story, but anyway an avalanche of input followed on that forum (several hundred posts in one day) that can be read at: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/06/0229223&mode=thread&tid=126 Some of the following commentary is inspired from this ongoing thread. In typical surfer fashion, from one of these posts I was led to a long-forgotten reminiscence of Douglas Adams, whose writing went way beyond far-out humor and inspired many things that once seemed terribly bizarre then, but are more commonplace today - almost taken for granted. William Gibson and Robert Forward were Sci-Fi visionaries similarly gifted with extraordinary foresight, but lacking Adams humor. Thankfully Gibson is still alive and even has his own internet blog these days. In Douglas Adams' (Douglas Noel Adams=DNA) "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", a race of intelligent beings from an advanced civilization build a supercomputer, "Deep Thought" in order to answer the question, "What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?" DT computed for 7.5 million years, and finally produced the answer, which is "42". Adams died in May, 2001 but long before, pundits had tried to find some hidden meaning in "42." I wonder if it had any connection to decoding the information in (artificial) DNA strands using the four amino acids known as GATC and their positions as 4-base words. I'll look to see if this question is answered on Slashdot later, as that thread seems to have struck a giant nerve - a meme nerve, so to speak. Adams was also an internet pioneer and an "info junkie" who believed something extraordinary was created when people pooled experiences and information over the internet. He said part of the internet's extraordinary power was the fact that it "evolved as an organic entity, a bottom-up design rather than being hierarchically controlled from above". The idea that hat humans could have even been "created" to carry a message across time in DNA, was definitely an implication of D.N.A.'s work but others have expressed the sentiment in more detail. And for those who want to get really crazy with modern prophecy that derives from ancient prophecy, and realizing that many ancient civilizations, especially the ancient Egyptians, believed that humans came from Orion, consider "42" in that context. M-42 or Messier object 42, is a nebulae in the Orion constellation. http://www.m-42.com/images/orionmos.png Was this very spot the remnant of a long lost star in Orion - our "ancestral" home, or is it all just the further reverberations of some deeply ingrained meme? What is a meme? First coined by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene," a meme is the extrasensory counterpart to a gene - a idea, behavior or skill that can be transferred from one person to another by imitation: stories, religions, inventions, even music. Many consider the meme to be the most important explanatory concept since DNA or the gene. The key to appreciating the wide impact of memes, and what separates them from the traditional theories of cultural evolution, is *continuity* over time - the meme is a replicator. The first replicator is of course the gene. The second replicator is the meme and it exists now NOT for human culture nor for any more immediate reason than its own survival. It can work with or even against the gene, because it has crossed over a "complexity barrier" to become its own self-sustaining entity. Coincidentally or not, Dawkins was a big fan of Adams - and RD's wife, Lalla Ward, is the former Dr. Who sidekick, the lovely Romana. They met at a party held by Douglas Adams, who himself was a former Dr. Who scriptwriter. Also mentioned in the numerous Slashdot threads is a Star Trek episode "The Chase " in which Dr. Galen, Captain Picards old Archaeology professor, found genetic data-blocks from various species around the galaxy stored in the junk portion of each species DNA, including our own. When a sufficient number of these data blocks were put together it completed a stellar map, identifying the precise location of the original origin of life. The jury is still out on whether it was M-42, and even on the Panspermia Theory [panspermia.org], but many of us believe that there must be lots of intelligence out there - vastly older and vastly more advance than we are. >From other posts on Slashdot: "The idea of storing and transmitting information via DNA was also proposed by Jaron Lanier in the Y2K issue of the NYT magazine. The NYT was running a contest to come up with a "time capsule" that would last till Y3K and asked various prominent scientists, architects etc. how they would make something that would last and would be easily found by future generations. Lanier proposed encoding a message in the DNA of cockroaches and then letting them reproduce naturally in the wild. In a thousand years they'd be everywhere! (His idea didn't win, a more conventional capsule with physical records was selected). Also in various science fiction books (Greg Bear) messages were encoded in people's DNA. This info transfer idea was also proposed by David E.H. Jones in his Daedalus column (which now appears in Nature). His article on 31 January, 1985, entitled "Archival Junk" discusses the use of DNA to encode the essence of human culture in case of another Dark Age. The article also appears in his compendium, The Further Inventions of Daedalus (Oxford University Press, 1999)." I love it when synchronicity strikes! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 14:03:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HL0YJl001568; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:02:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HKupYk031253; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:56:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:56:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:56:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517205634.PLRT2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <7gy2FD.A.KoH.QqliCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > Plus this query caused a blinding flash of > remembrance about a prior & typically long-winded & probably > boring posting (boring to the non-Illuminated, shall we say) - > which was actually a DNA obit (or is that orbit): You'll love "Salmon". It begins with such tributes. It's published posthumously, culled from the numerous DNA hard drives by his wife and friends. He probably even had a 160 G HD but it was Apple format. http://tinyurl.com/9569b > I love it when synchronicity strikes! Odd, I was just here yesterday: http://syncup.blogspot.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 14:21:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HLKlpb013723; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:20:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HLKjki013696; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:20:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:20:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: SciAm article on brain Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:15:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517211533.QHXS2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Keith Nagel" > Needless to say, the aptly named Jones has eschewed my cautionary > advice and eaten a whole handful of those delicious chocolate > espresso beans. http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&q=%22chocolate+covered+coffee+beans%22 14,000 hits on the exact phrase. NOW we know what powers the internet! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 14:34:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HLXnpb020882; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:33:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HLXe0U020799; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:33:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:33:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Do Electrical Arcs Shape Planets Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:33:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050517213324.RCJG2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have always wondered what the potential difference was between the earth and moon. This article extrapolates that question: http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050516marineris.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 14:48:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4HLm6pb030396; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:48:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4HLlrZO030243; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517174407.03e6c0c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:46:44 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mallove obituary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <620cJC.A.ZYH.HamiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [it has been one year since Gene was murdered. Here is an obituary I wrote for Infinite Energy magazine. The family objected to it, so naturally I acquiesced and withdrew it from publication. After all this time I suppose there is no harm to uploading it here. - Jed] Eugene Franklin Mallove To summarize a person's life in a few paragraphs is to caricature him. It is to run the risk that people may remember a few anecdotes instead of the person himself. To summarize a person in a single word is even worse, yet one word -- one quality -- comes to mind when I think of Eugene Mallove. He was indomitable. He was fearless; he was the most determined person I ever met. Again and again, he did what he felt must be done, against enormous odds, often at great personal sacrifice. He resigned from MIT because MIT researchers attacked cold fusion soon after the March 1989 announcement, and because they tried to bury evidence of excess heat in their own experiments. This was an extraordinary thing to do! Call it brave or call it quixotic; very few middle class-people with a comfortable, prestigious job at world-famous institution would resign over a matter of principle, in an obscure scientific debate. But Gene did not hesitate. I think that in the early years he took it for granted that other scientists would soon come around. They would see the truth, and act upon it, because that is what scientists are supposed to do. He believed that scientists are, by and large, as intellectually honest as he was himself, and that they love truth, and are above petty politics. After years of disappointment he became cynical about them. He came to believe that institutions such as MIT, the DoE and American Physics Society are hopelessly corrupt, and beyond redemption. Since he himself was a product of the establishment, with degrees from MIT and Harvard, this must have been hard for him. Those of us who never fully trusted the establishment in the first place, and who were never part of it, were not as disillusioned. Nobody is perfect. Every strength of personality can also be a weakness. Gene's adamant self-assurance sometimes manifested itself as over-confidence. He was annoying at times, even to his friends. Especially to his friends. He was too quick to lend support to controversial, unproven, unreplicated experiments and theories. He published these ideas, which was unquestionably the right thing to do, but he also endorsed them, and spent money on them unwisely. He wasted time, he wasted funding, and he hurt his own reputation. He was so enthusiastic, and so anxious to see positive results, he would sometimes jump to conclusions and announce a positive result in one issue of the magazine, only to be forced to retract in the next issue. He took sides in heated arguments between "free energy" factions, where as a publisher he should have remained neutral. This is not the right mindset for a publisher. It is not a productive, objective attitude for an experimentalist. Gene went from believing the textbooks, and championing mainstream science, to the opposite extreme. He sometimes seemed convinced that anything the establishment endorsed was wrong, including Einstein's theories and perhaps even the laws of thermodynamics. He concluded that people who oppose the establishment are probably right. That does not follow. A more evenhanded, or cynical, person is skeptical about both sides. Einstein may be wrong, but there is no reason to think his critics are right. Throughout history, people on both sides of scientific controversies have often been wrong. Light is neither particle nor wave. The distinction turned out to be unhelpful to our understanding of light. But I should not exaggerate this quality. If cold fusion survives, Gene's masterpiece, "Fire from Ice," will be judged one of the fairest, most objective, prescient books ever published. Faith in action and the will to commit are defects in an experimentalist, but they are virtues in a crusading social reformer, and that is what Gene became, in spite of himself. At times I sensed he was conflicted over this, since he considered himself a Republican or a libertarian. But his parents named him after Franklin D. Roosevelt, and I think a person can never turn away from the heritage of liberal activism such parents bequeath. If cold fusion succeeds, Gene will be counted as a great social activist. When he was discouraged, he would express the nihilistic conservative view that mankind is a lost cause, and hardly worth fighting for anyway. I did not take him seriously. No one could give so much of himself, so unstintingly, without faith in people and love for mankind. Gene often became angry. As he told Steve Krivit, what he wanted most was vindication. That would be Old Testament vindication, not a New Age happy ending. But in his personal life, he did not let this anger cloud his friendships, or interfere with his sense of humor, his zest for life, his creativity, curiosity, and fascination with the new. He was always buoyant, always looking forward to the next experiment. He and I often argued. We disagreed about the direction of the magazine. I ran out of things to write about cold fusion, and I have devoted most of my time for the last few years to the LENR-CANR web site instead. Gene and I seldom talked during this time. Yet whenever we did, despite our differences, I always came away with a buzz of excitement, a sense of exuberance. I felt motivated, and anxious to press on. I think he remained convinced to the end that we must win, and we will win, despite what seemed to me to be overwhelming opposition and very bad odds. I am in this fight because I can be. Because it appeals to me, and I can do as I please in life. Gene was in this fight because he had to be. It was his karma. He threw himself into it in a way that made me and other advocates look like dilettantes. Without a trace of embarrassment, he would juggle menial jobs, working all hours to support his family, while he would be plotting, striving, struggling, negotiating, and driving on with boundless energy to promote cold fusion and the magazine. He would work all day, and then speak eloquently on a radio program half the night. His ability to motivate other people, his book, articles and lectures had enormous and still-untold influence. He believed in the power of truth. In the cover pages of "Fire from Ice," he quoted Alexander Dumas: "Great is truth. Fire cannot burn, nor water drown it." As a cynic and student of history I say: "yet people can ignore the truth, and they often do." I still doubt that we shall prevail, and I know it will be more difficult without Gene's help. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 17:24:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I0Nxpb029071; Tue, 17 May 2005 17:24:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I0MJhB028020; Tue, 17 May 2005 17:22:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:22:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428A8AE5.9040208 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:23:01 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mallove obituary References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517174407.03e6c0c0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517174407.03e6c0c0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6YJ46.A.a1G.3qoiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I came to vortex over a decade ago on a recommendation of Chris Tinsley (he *knew* I was crazy because he was a Brit). I had bought in to the "common sense" that CF was flawed. I have learned otherwise. In my heart (and elsewhere ) I named Chris, Jed and Gene the Three Musketeers of Cold Fusion. Jed, I think your eulogy is accurate and loving. Gene would approve and I would be pleased if someone honored me so. Jed Rothwell wrote: > [it has been one year since Gene was murdered. Here is an obituary I > wrote for Infinite Energy magazine. The family objected to it, so > naturally I acquiesced and withdrew it from publication. After all > this time I suppose there is no harm to uploading it here. - Jed] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 17:55:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I0tbpb013469; Tue, 17 May 2005 17:55:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I0tXr6013424; Tue, 17 May 2005 17:55:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:55:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428A92B7.40802 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:56:23 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's the deal with redox batteries? References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF52A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF52A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > Given the amount of published enthusiasm about redox >flow batteries, you'd think we'd all be driving vanadium battery >electric cars > Is this what you mean? http://www.vanadiumbattery.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 21:13:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I4Cxoq005741; Tue, 17 May 2005 21:12:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I4CuYu005690; Tue, 17 May 2005 21:12:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:12:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:12:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: SciAm article on brain In-reply-to: <20050517211533.QHXS2059.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2Su6aB.A.nYB.GDsiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: www.buildyourownmessiah.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 22:11:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I5BAoq003404; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:11:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I5B7qC003381; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:11:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:11:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050518051059.00968c00 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:10:59 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Moore's law for hard disks Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:01 pm 17/05/2005 -0600, Don wrote: > The Hard Drive is on its way out .. Currently MRAM is the "NEW" replacement > technology > In the near future they will achieve Hard Drive densities > > http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&c2coff=1&q=MRAM > > How MRAM Works > http://www.nve.com/otherbiz/mram.php > Data is written by a small electrical current which creates a magnetic field > which flips electron spins in a spin-dependent tunnel junction. Data is read > as the resistance of the junction. > > http://www.research.ibm.com/resources/news/20001207_mramimages.shtml > http://www.answers.com/topic/mram > > Also --- FeRAM > http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&c2coff=1&q=FeRAM+ > http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~ali/ferro/tutorial.html > > Also --- The Hybrid Hard Drive > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hybrid+hard+drive+&btnG=Google+Search > > -DonW- Reading through the above references on Magnetoresistive Random Access Memories (MRAM), and how MRAM works, i.e. =================================================== Data is written by a small electrical current which creates a magnetic field which flips electron spins in a spin-dependent tunnel junction. Data is read as the resistance of the junction. =================================================== I couldn't but be struck by the insight on the nature of magnetism displayed by Howard Johnson, the inventor of the magnetic motor, etc. The best explanation I came across of his conceptualization of the nature of magnetism is the following by Tom Bearden with whose work I'm sure Vortexians will be familiar. ====================================================== Tom Bearden: Chasing the Wild Dragon ~ [Excerpts from http://www.rexresearch.com/johnson/www.cheniere.org ] Howard Johnson is also a respected colleague, whom I very much admire. (See Figure 23). Howard has continued to work quietly and patiently upon his patented permanent magnet motor, [note 31] including patenting various magnetic gates, etc. that are necessary to make such a motor work in a rotary configuration. [note 32] Howard employs a two-particle theory of magnetism; i.e., each magnetic flux line is envisioned as having a particle traveling from the north pole to the south pole, and also a particle traveling from the south pole to the north pole. The particles are spinning; the forward-time particle spins in one direction, and the antiparticle spins in the other direction. Howard then slightly separates the two particle flows. [note 33] In other words, Johnson splits the flux lines themselves, into two different pieces. When so separated, the component lines are now curls, so their paths curve. The paths of the two "curl particles" are different; one curls in one direction and the other curls in the opposite direction. Further, a predominance of one form of curl particle gives a "time-forward" aspect, while a predominance of the other form of curl particle gives a "time-reversed" aspect. Johnson is thus able to employ a deeper kind of magnetism than the textbooks presently contain. He demonstrates that a "spin-altered" magnetic assembly exhibiting (to a compass or other such detector) a north polarity can attract another unaltered magnetic assembly exhibiting a north polarity. In short, he can make a north pole attract a north pole. We will give you further insight into Johnson's two-particle theory in a future article. [note 34] We will also explain how and why the physicists missed that antiparticle in the magnetic field's flux lines, and thereby failed to advance the theory of magnetism to a deeper level. Make no mistake, one day when the new theory is done, Johnson may well be awarded a Nobel Prize for his epochal discovery of a deeper structure of magnetism. ====================================================== It will be seen that Johnson's insights take the spin-up spin-down feature of MRAM to vastly different orders of magnitude, or rather minitude if I can be forgiven the neologism. 8-) In effect he treats the electron as a real turbine spewing forth real fluid particles. This is so out of tune with current ideas that it is no wonder so little progress has been made in harvesting the manifest opportunities in zero point energy. Elsewhere, Johnson draws very cogent parallels between ferromagnetism and superconductivity. ================================================ For example, Johnson argues that the magnetic forces in a permanent magnet represent super- conductance that is akin to phenomena normally associated only with extremely cold superconducting systems. He argues that a magnet is a room temperature superconducting system because the electron flow does not cease, and because this electron flow can be made to do work. And for those who pooh- pooh the idea that permanent magnets do work, Johnson has an answer: "You come along with a magnet and pick up a piece of iron, then some physicist says you didn't do any work because you used that magnet. But you moved a mass through a distance. Right? That's work that requires energy. Or you can hold one magnet in the air indefinitely by positioning it over another magnet with like poles facing. The physicist will argue that because it involves magnetic repulsion, no work is done. Yet if you support the same object with air, they will agree in a minute that work is done!" ================================================ Funnily enough I made exactly the same point about "conservative" fields doing work in a recent post to the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo group. As regards whether the work one can extract from permanent magnets is limited to the domain strain or the deeper level electron up/down asymmetry, the following excerpt is relevant. ================================================= There's no doubt in Johnson's mind that he has succeeded in extracting usable energy from the atoms of permanent magnets. But does that imply that the electron spins and associated phenomena that he thinks provide this power will eventually be used up? Johnson makes no pretense of knowing the answer: I didn't start the electron spins, and I don't know any way to stop them - do you? They may eventually stop, but that is not my problem." ================================================= The trouble is, the mechanism of MRAM suggests that ferro- magnetism is dependent not so much on electron spin, but on the asymmetry between spin-up and spin-down. On the face of it that asymmetry can indeed be used up. This may well account for the failure to produce a commercially viable magnetic motor. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 22:24:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I5OJoq010858; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:24:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I5MakJ010095; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:22:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:22:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050517221824.027710b0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:24:23 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Mallove obituary In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517174407.03e6c0c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050517174407.03e6c0c0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I can understand why the family would decline to run your obit and think they made the right choice. As well, I am glad to see what you have written and shared publicly. It honors Gene and his search for truth. None of us is without flaws. To reflect the fullness of Gene as you did, is deeply meaningful, and in my opinion, successful. Thank you, Steve At 02:46 PM 5/17/2005, you wrote: >[it has been one year since Gene was murdered. Here is an obituary I wrote >for Infinite Energy magazine. The family objected to it, so naturally I >acquiesced and withdrew it from publication. After all this time I suppose >there is no harm to uploading it here. - Jed] > > >Eugene Franklin Mallove > >To summarize a person's life in a few paragraphs is to caricature him. It >is to run the risk that people may remember a few anecdotes instead of the >person himself. To summarize a person in a single word is even worse, yet >one word -- one quality -- comes to mind when I think of Eugene Mallove. >He was indomitable. He was fearless; he was the most determined person I >ever met. Again and again, he did what he felt must be done, against >enormous odds, often at great personal sacrifice. He resigned from MIT >because MIT researchers attacked cold fusion soon after the March 1989 >announcement, and because they tried to bury evidence of excess heat in >their own experiments. This was an extraordinary thing to do! Call it >brave or call it quixotic; very few middle class-people with a >comfortable, prestigious job at world-famous institution would resign over >a matter of principle, in an obscure scientific debate. But Gene did not >hesitate. > >I think that in the early years he took it for granted that other >scientists would soon come around. They would see the truth, and act upon >it, because that is what scientists are supposed to do. He believed that >scientists are, by and large, as intellectually honest as he was himself, >and that they love truth, and are above petty politics. After years of >disappointment he became cynical about them. He came to believe that >institutions such as MIT, the DoE and American Physics Society are >hopelessly corrupt, and beyond redemption. Since he himself was a product >of the establishment, with degrees from MIT and Harvard, this must have >been hard for him. Those of us who never fully trusted the establishment >in the first place, and who were never part of it, were not as disillusioned. > >Nobody is perfect. Every strength of personality can also be a weakness. >Gene's adamant self-assurance sometimes manifested itself as >over-confidence. He was annoying at times, even to his friends. Especially >to his friends. He was too quick to lend support to controversial, >unproven, unreplicated experiments and theories. He published these ideas, >which was unquestionably the right thing to do, but he also endorsed them, >and spent money on them unwisely. He wasted time, he wasted funding, and >he hurt his own reputation. He was so enthusiastic, and so anxious to see >positive results, he would sometimes jump to conclusions and announce a >positive result in one issue of the magazine, only to be forced to retract >in the next issue. He took sides in heated arguments between "free energy" >factions, where as a publisher he should have remained neutral. This is >not the right mindset for a publisher. It is not a productive, objective >attitude for an experimentalist. > >Gene went from believing the textbooks, and championing mainstream >science, to the opposite extreme. He sometimes seemed convinced that >anything the establishment endorsed was wrong, including Einstein's >theories and perhaps even the laws of thermodynamics. He concluded that >people who oppose the establishment are probably right. That does not >follow. A more evenhanded, or cynical, person is skeptical about both >sides. Einstein may be wrong, but there is no reason to think his critics >are right. Throughout history, people on both sides of scientific >controversies have often been wrong. Light is neither particle nor wave. >The distinction turned out to be unhelpful to our understanding of light. > >But I should not exaggerate this quality. If cold fusion survives, Gene's >masterpiece, "Fire from Ice," will be judged one of the fairest, most >objective, prescient books ever published. > >Faith in action and the will to commit are defects in an experimentalist, >but they are virtues in a crusading social reformer, and that is what Gene >became, in spite of himself. At times I sensed he was conflicted over >this, since he considered himself a Republican or a libertarian. But his >parents named him after Franklin D. Roosevelt, and I think a person can >never turn away from the heritage of liberal activism such parents >bequeath. If cold fusion succeeds, Gene will be counted as a great social >activist. When he was discouraged, he would express the nihilistic >conservative view that mankind is a lost cause, and hardly worth fighting >for anyway. I did not take him seriously. No one could give so much of >himself, so unstintingly, without faith in people and love for mankind. > >Gene often became angry. As he told Steve Krivit, what he wanted most was >vindication. That would be Old Testament vindication, not a New Age happy >ending. But in his personal life, he did not let this anger cloud his >friendships, or interfere with his sense of humor, his zest for life, his >creativity, curiosity, and fascination with the new. He was always >buoyant, always looking forward to the next experiment. He and I often >argued. We disagreed about the direction of the magazine. I ran out of >things to write about cold fusion, and I have devoted most of my time for >the last few years to the LENR-CANR web site instead. Gene and I seldom >talked during this time. Yet whenever we did, despite our differences, I >always came away with a buzz of excitement, a sense of exuberance. I felt >motivated, and anxious to press on. > >I think he remained convinced to the end that we must win, and we will >win, despite what seemed to me to be overwhelming opposition and very bad >odds. I am in this fight because I can be. Because it appeals to me, and I >can do as I please in life. Gene was in this fight because he had to be. >It was his karma. He threw himself into it in a way that made me and other >advocates look like dilettantes. Without a trace of embarrassment, he >would juggle menial jobs, working all hours to support his family, while >he would be plotting, striving, struggling, negotiating, and driving on >with boundless energy to promote cold fusion and the magazine. He would >work all day, and then speak eloquently on a radio program half the night. >His ability to motivate other people, his book, articles and lectures had >enormous and still-untold influence. He believed in the power of truth. In >the cover pages of "Fire from Ice," he quoted Alexander Dumas: "Great is >truth. Fire cannot burn, nor water drown it." As a cynic and student of >history I say: "yet people can ignore the truth, and they often do." I >still doubt that we shall prevail, and I know it will be more difficult >without Gene's help. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 22:46:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I5kOoq023224; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:46:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I5kJCv023174; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:46:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:46:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:47:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Proposed Tesla energy tower Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The electrophysicist James McCanney in an interview on C to C AM just announced that he is planning on building a tower based on Tesla's design. He proposes to charge the air molecules above it. This charge continues until it reaches the ionosphere at which time energy starts to flow down. It would be great if it worked, eh? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 22:49:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I5nLoq025358; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:49:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I5nITk025313; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:49:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:49:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:50:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The Nick Cook Interview Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <8UV3bD.A.XLG.cdtiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Cook, author of Hunt for the Zero Point was interviewed on C to C AM recently. He maintains that we are on the verge of cohering the ZPE. While I would love to see this work, I've yet to see any evidence of it. I'm wondering if anyone has read his book? He is in the process of setting up a website, and perhaps he will take questions. Until I see some experimental evidence for his claims, I will continue to regard both his first and the forthcoming second book as just more vaporware. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 17 23:35:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I6Ywoq017539; Tue, 17 May 2005 23:34:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I6YtVL017498; Tue, 17 May 2005 23:34:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:34:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=XHJvwgH/59oQ75sRIDfoLvcmU3Y2RFTjHA1wLflu6iUDwUJNPZM0PPmLPFSjDcgtxlWjmljWuDT/ORF3NEnGaSS01R6HErOOtf2KcCHwAFEt7imhhimqDvOGk5T2CavmrhdvGiEwku76iUOumYBZeOBNeanscm/GEl4CkEVaFVs= ; Message-ID: <20050518063444.5835.qmail web51508.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:34:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: The Nick Cook Interview To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1516242488-1116398084=:4204" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1516242488-1116398084=:4204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tom, Tapping the ZPF is just one thing my device does (IMO) by creating high energy plasma events which trigger strange localized effects. BTW, It is the Plasma that is responsible for the anomalous effects in cold fusion, fusion and Ken Shoulders EVO transmutation events. I suspect Cook is also triggering plasma into action, and why not if it works? My work is very different from Ken as I use 60 - 350 VDC to generate a very destructive plasma. I have found commercial applications for my Plasma that avoid the Toxic Waste destruction, Hydrogen Production, Nuclear Remediation, Transmutation, Fusion and ZPE (etc.) attack syndrome, and usually limit mentioning these areas to ebay. Personally, I like the potential markets that Synthetic Diamonds represent, especially the new and unexpected forms that are produced with my equipment - like diamond semiconductors and magnetic carbon. We attempted to solve the sp2/sp3 ratio mystery by having NMR analysis performed on the nanophase diamond powder - except the Carbon spectrum could (and still cannot) be identified. Chris Arnold http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 Nick Cook, author of Hunt for the Zero Point was interviewed on C to C AM recently. He maintains that we are on the verge of cohering the ZPE. While I would love to see this work, I've yet to see any evidence of it. I'm wondering if anyone has read his book? He is in the process of setting up a website, and perhaps he will take questions. Until I see some experimental evidence for his claims, I will continue to regard both his first and the forthcoming second book as just more vaporware. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page --0-1516242488-1116398084=:4204 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Tom,
 
Tapping the ZPF is just one thing my device does (IMO) by creating high energy plasma events which trigger strange localized effects. BTW, It is the Plasma that is responsible for the anomalous effects in cold fusion, fusion and Ken Shoulders EVO transmutation events. I suspect Cook is also triggering plasma into action, and why not if it works? My work is very different from Ken as I use 60 - 350 VDC to generate a very destructive plasma.
 
I have found commercial applications for my Plasma that avoid the Toxic Waste destruction, Hydrogen Production, Nuclear Remediation, Transmutation, Fusion and ZPE (etc.) attack syndrome, and usually limit mentioning these areas to ebay. Personally, I like the potential markets that Synthetic Diamonds represent, especially the new and unexpected forms that are produced with my equipment - like diamond semiconductors and magnetic carbon. We attempted to solve the sp2/sp3 ratio mystery by having NMR analysis performed on the nanophase diamond powder - except the Carbon spectrum could (and still cannot) be identified.
 
Chris Arnold
Nick Cook, author of Hunt for the Zero Point was interviewed on C to
C AM recently. He maintains that we are on the verge of cohering the
ZPE. While I would love to see this work, I've yet to see any
evidence of it. I'm wondering if anyone has read his book? He is in
the process of setting up a website, and perhaps he will take
questions. Until I see some experimental evidence for his claims, I
will continue to regard both his first and the forthcoming second
book as just more vaporware.

Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page --0-1516242488-1116398084=:4204-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 00:21:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4I7LToq004736; Wed, 18 May 2005 00:21:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4I7LOKf004690; Wed, 18 May 2005 00:21:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:21:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons - was: Blast from the Past - Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:21:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <25rl819gvmbqpl78ip81t200q0vl3a6b3n 4ax.com> References: <005201c55a5e$5bf78160$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <33658125.1116258735@localhost> <004901c55a8a$85f1f320$f5027841@xptower> <7m6j81dhh0sfcdqordmtkgr7mu3k0jpr7e@4ax.com> <001b01c55ada$42949010$3e037841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001b01c55ada$42949010$3e037841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 18 May 2005 07:21:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4I7LHoq004634 Resent-Message-ID: <0T8l-C.A.CJB.yzuiCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 17 May 2005 07:15:53 -0500: Hi, >Hi Robin, >The M.W.Youds website mentions patents for his device operating at 7225 RPM >to achieve the result he reported. He mentioned gamma radiation present so >we are careful. I found loads of stuff on his web page, but no patents. Could you supply the patent number? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 06:34:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IDX1oq002116; Wed, 18 May 2005 06:33:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IDNZmw032287; Wed, 18 May 2005 06:23:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:23:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Linear Magnet Accelerator Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:22:57 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c55bac$b5845ba0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050517135133.0095df4c pop.freeserve.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4IDNHoq032195 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not sure if it is significant or not but there is an attachment to this patent at the end of the images that retracts claims 26, 27, and 28. No reason is given. The retraction is not represented in the text only version.... http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/net ahtml/search-bool.html&r=22&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=4,151,431&OS=4,151,43 1&RS=4,151,431 The infamous Mr. Duggan was the examiner no less... isn't he the one typically vilified for crapping all over anything that even hints of perpetual motion? Additionally, this patent is the foundation of 21 others. The latest issued in 2004. I have not read through them all yet, but it is clear and plainly stated in the summary of the invention of the ones I have that the goal is rotary motive power without an external power supply... Something is missing here. This is a significant body of work overall by multiple individuals over an extended period of time. What has nothing ever commercialized? -john -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 8:52 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Linear Magnet Accelerator At 01:23 pm 17/05/2005 +0100, Frank Grimer wrote: >Thanks to the miracle of the Google search >engine I've been able to answer my own >request with everything on the accelerator >that anyone would want to know [and some 8^) ] > >http://www.rexresearch.com/johnson/1johnson.htm It is clear that in the case of Howard Johnson we are not dealing with some Slippery Sam of the extra mural research world, but an inventor whose "credentials appear to be impeccable". Consider the following except from the Spring Issue of Science & Mechanics. ====================================================== "AMAZING MAGNET-POWERED MOTOR" by Jorma Hyypia ====================================================== "We don't grant patents on perpetual motion machines," said the examiners at the U.S. Patent Office. "It won't work because it violates the law of Conservation of Energy," said one physicist after another. But because, inventor Howard Johnson is not the sort of man to be intimidated by such seemingly authoritative pronouncements, he now owns U.S. Patent No. 4,151,431 which describes how it is possible to generate motive power, as in a motor, using only the energy contained in the atoms of permanent magnets. That's right. Johnson has discovered how to build motors that run without an input of electricity or any other kind of external energy! The monumental nature of the invention is obvious, especially in a world facing an alarming, escalating energy shortage. Yet inventor Johnson is not rushing to peddle his creation as the end-all solution to world- wide energy problems. He has more important work to do. First, there's the need to refine his laboratory prototypes into workable practical devices -in particular a 5,000-watt electric power generator already in the building. His second and perhaps more difficult major challenge: persuade a host of skeptics that his ideas are indeed practical. Johnson, who has been coping with disbelievers for decades, can be very persuasive in a face-to-face encounter because he can not do more than merely theorize; he can demonstrate working models that unquestionably create motion using only permanent magnets. When this writer was urged by the editor of Science & Mechanics to make a thousand mile pilgrimage to Blacksburg, Virginia, to meet with the inventor, he went there as an "open-minded skeptic" and as a former research Scientist determined not to be fooled. Within two days, this former skeptic had become a believer. Here's why. Doing the Unthinkable ~ Howard Johnson refuses to view the "laws" of science as somehow sacred, so doing the unthinkable and succeeding is second nature to him. If a particular law gets in the way, he sees no harm in going around it for a while to see if there's something on the other side. Johnson explains the persistent opposition he experiences from the established scientific community this way: "Physics is a measurement science and physicists are especially determined to protect the 'Law' of Conservation of Energy. Thus the physicists become game wardens who tell us what laws' we can't violate. In this case they don't even know what the game is. But they are so scared that I and my associates are going to violate some of these laws, that they have to get to the pass to head us off!" The critics say Johnson offers a "free lunch" solution to energy problems, and that there can be no such thing. Johnson demurs, reminding repeatedly that he has never suggested that his invention provides something for nothing. He also points gut that no one talks about a "free lunch" when discussing extraction of enormous amounts of atomic power by means of nuclear reactors and atom bombs. In his mind, it's much the same thing. Johnson is the first to admit he doesn't actually know where the power be has tapped derives. But he postulates that the energy may be associated with spinning electrons, perhaps in the form of a "presently unnamed atomic particle." How do other physicists react to Johnson's suggestion that there may be an atomic particle so far overlooked by nuclear physicists? Says Johnson: "I guess it's fair to say that most of them are revolted." On the other hand, a few converted scientists, including some who are associated with large and prestigious research laboratories, are intrigued enough to suggest that there should be a hunt for the answer, be it a "particle" or some other as yet unsuspected characteristic of atomic structure. This article is prefaced with the foregoing brief summary of the ongoing controversy so that, in fairness to the inventor, we might all view his claims with open minds, even if it means temporary setting aside of cherished scientific concepts until more complete explanations are forthcoming. The main question to be answered here and now is this: Does Johnson permanent magnet motor work? Before providing the answer, we need to face up to another question that undoubtedly nags in the minds of many readers: Is Johnson a bona fide researcher, or merely a "garage mechanic" mad inventor? As the following brief summary suggests, the inventor's credentials appear to be impeccable. Following seven years of college and university training, Johnson worked on atomic energy projects at Oak Ridge, did magnetics research for Burroughs company, and served as scientific consultant to Lukens Steel. He has participated in the development of medical electrical products, including injection devices. For the military he invented a ceramic muffler that makes a portable motor generator silent at 50 feet; this has been in production for the past 18 years. His contributions to the motor industry include: a hysteresis brake; non-locking brake materials for anti- skid application, new methods of curing brake linings; and a method of dissolving asbestos fibers. He has also worked on silencers for small motors, a super charger, and has perfected a 92-pole no-brush generator to go in the wheel of Lincoln automobiles as a skid control; that last item reduced the cost to one-eighth of the cost of an earlier design by utilizing metal-filled plastics for the armature and field. In all, Johnson is connected with more than 30 patents in the fields of chemistry and physics. ====================================================== Now his devices are rather complicated - almost certainly unnecessarily so. But there seems to be little doubt that they actually work - which is more than one can say for the SMOT. However, for anyone who wants to experiment the SMOT is easier to experiment with and cheaper to build. There are two critical questions which need answers. [1] Does this machine involve interaction between the gravitation/inertial level and the higher magnetic field level. [2] Is it using high level or low level strain energy in the magnets. If high level then the magnets are merely acting as batteries and one is only going to get out the energy one put in. If on the other hand the machines are involving low level interactions then the energy drawn from the magnets is being replaced by the environment. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 08:34:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IFXWoq008551; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:33:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IFX3j0008150; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:33:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:33:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <959f3db7-2cee-458a-bef8-646a57644163> Message-ID: <017901c55bbb$4774dc20$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004401c553df$36709f10$294eccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <009f01c55596$9d9ec2d0$9c7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <20050515092456.GB828@genius.tao.org.uk> Subject: Re: 'energy hole' (Re: Mills_secret_) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:24:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Coverting Joe's notepad post to email, ----------------- On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 03:06:12PM -0400, Mike Carrell wrote: > > In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 8 May 2005 11:01:46-0400: > > >2) Isolated hydrogen atoms can be induced to 'shink' to lower states by > the proximity of catalyst atom(s) presenting an 'energy hole' of the right > value. Energy is transfered by a 'resonant transfer' mechanism which does > not involve radiation. This transfer is known in physics and chemistry in > other contexts. > > > > Since all matter is electromagnetic in nature, is must involve > > radiation in some form, though it may be near field rather than > > far field. > Has anyone proposed the mechanism for this in terms of a modification to the Lagrangian of the standard model? In this framework the energy must be exchanged by some force carrier boson; is Mill proposing that this is done by a virtual photon? Joe ----------------------------- In discussing the resonant transfer phenomenon with a mathematical physicist friend who is very, very conversant with electromagnetism, he said that the effect should be considered in terms of antenna theory, especially near field effects. It is well known that an antenna at its resonant frequency has an apparent cross section much larger than its physical size. I do not understand the math here well enough to argue the case. Following the recent posts of John Barchak and quotes from Carver Mead, it seems that 'partical think' gets in the way of a fundamental understanding of what is going on. After all, the particle zoo is a set of models whose conceptual roots go back to Newtonian dynamics of macroscopic bodies. These models lead to all kinds of problems which are patched over by discovering new 'particles' as needed. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 08:45:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IFUnqw006300; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:44:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IF8YWa024770; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:08:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:08:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <3ffce6cd-4955-49b9-aaad-0478d44a246d> Message-ID: <004301c55b9f$222f9ac0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: Proposed Tesla energy tower Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:21:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <3jt7MB.A.2CG.qp1iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "thomas malloy" > The electrophysicist James McCanney in an interview on C to C AM just > announced that he is planning on building a tower based on Tesla's > design. He proposes to charge the air molecules above it. This charge > continues until it reaches the ionosphere at which time energy starts > to flow down. It would be great if it worked, eh? ---------------------------------- I seem to recall that part of Tesla's design was high powered arc lamps to create a ionization tunnel, and it was a power broadcaster, not receiver. The abandoned very sturdy tower was a New Jersey shore landmark until WW2, when it was torn down because it was a landmark and there were concerns about German invasion. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 08:45:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IFUnr0006300; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:45:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IFEXX3026981; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:14:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:14:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: What's the deal with redox batteries? Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:26:00 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF52E CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What's the deal with redox batteries? Thread-Index: AcVbRGj2bNzUDQwKRpSu9HIdezk/NwAZ+EGA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 May 2005 13:25:59.0550 (UTC) FILETIME=[2143F9E0:01C55BAD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4IFEMoq026853 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yep! This and other companies keep making various announcements - but where's the beef? Where's the mass commercialization of this promising technology? ( they keep promising!) I personally believe that ONE GOOD BATTERY could solve most of our energy woes, defeat the terrorists, bankrupt OPEC, and stop the global warming controversy. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 8:56 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's the deal with redox batteries? Zell, Chris wrote: > Given the amount of published enthusiasm about redox >flow batteries, you'd think we'd all be driving vanadium battery >electric cars > Is this what you mean? http://www.vanadiumbattery.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 08:47:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IFUnrA006300; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:46:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IDrgrv006667; Wed, 18 May 2005 06:53:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:53:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Nick Cook Interview Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 9:09:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050518130921.BUVH26760.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Christopher Arnold > Personally, I like the potential markets that Synthetic Diamonds represent, Interestingly, another method of manufacturing diamonds was in the news this week: http://www.physorg.com/news4123.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 08:48:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IFUnrI006300; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:47:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IDvevt007434; Wed, 18 May 2005 06:57:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:57:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c55bb1$77c2c7c0$80027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons-was; Blast from the past- Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:57:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C55B87.8E6C6C30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C55B87.8E6C6C30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C55B87.8E6C6C30" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C55B87.8E6C6C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 17 May 2005 07:15:53 -0500: Hi, >Hi Robin, >The M.W.Youds website mentions patents for his device operating at 7225 = RPM=20 >to achieve the result he reported. He mentioned gamma radiation present = so=20 >we are careful. I found loads of stuff on his web page, but no patents. Could you supply the patent number? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandon http://www.vortexi.com/ This is one link that mentions patents although I cannot fit what is = what. More details on the device was posted some time back on=20 www,fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/youlds/htm =20 but the Greenfield link has been cut. As is the case for so much posted = on the net..=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C55B87.8E6C6C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 

In reply to  RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 17 May 2005=20 07:15:53
-0500:
Hi,
>Hi Robin,
>The M.W.Youds website = mentions=20 patents for his device operating at 7225 RPM
>to achieve the = result he=20 reported. He mentioned gamma radiation present so
>we are=20 careful.

I found loads of stuff on his web page, but no patents. = Could=20 you
supply the patent = number?
[snip]

Regards,


Robin van=20 Spaandon

http://www.vortexi.com/

This is one link that mentions patents although I cannot fit what is = what.=20 More details on the device was posted some time back on

www,fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/youlds/htm 

but the Greenfield link has been cut. As is the case for so much = posted on=20 the net..

Richard


------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C55B87.8E6C6C30-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C55B87.8E6C6C30 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c55bb1$77288390$80027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C55B87.8E6C6C30-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:12:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IG7Mpk007254; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:12:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IFY8hc009225; Wed, 18 May 2005 08:34:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:34:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c55bbe$ed975940$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: AI and the silicon brain Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:33:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith observed, > we already have a massively > paralleled computer system. It's called the Internet. The > trick is to communicate with this vast planetary intelligence... > It does already have a rudimentary ear and mouth, some call it > google. > Let evolution work on this system a bit more... looks promising. Yes & not-to-worry, I am not going to drag-out and belabor this general subject matter much longer, as it is only moderately related to future energy, but this week in May was particularly active with important announcements, and it seems that many vortexians are mildly interested (or more) in where it is all leading. Keith is correct about the larger issue of the importance of evolution, acelerated evoltion, on several fronts - including the internet itself - which is like a "global mind". William Gibson was right-on. It is also important and maybe even strikingly important that recently it was announced that Cyc, the closest thing to real AI on the planet now, will be "plugged-into" to the internet... yes, as in doing its own surfing (augmented by a large staff of humans). It will be programmed to "learn" from the net, but not yet to "contribute"... but how long will it take for Cyc, operating 24/7 to "learn it all" (even the BS)? You may have seen that TV commercial where the frustrated web-surfer finally gets to the "end of the internet." Sony, IBM and Toshiba have now followed MS and released data about the so-called "Cell chip" that will be able to carry out 16 trillion calculations per second (teraflops). Wow, a power of four increase in cheap-power, and in just a few days. The chip will be made of 9 different processing cores which work on tasks together (parallel processors, but not massive). The three firms have been working on the chip since 2001, and fuller details will be released in February 2006 at the International Solid State Circuits Conference, prior to its release a few months later. It has been mentioned that because these chips are dedicated to raw video speed, like creating the giga-polygons/sec necessary for seamless movie quality video, that their raw numbers are not very meaningful as to "real" human-like intelligence... and there is (some) truth to that, although less than on the surface. As it turns out, raster processing, which is a large part of video, is very similar to both speech recognition algorithms and parsing algorithms. Not the same but very similar in being a 'reversed raster.' IBM has been involved speech recognition since day one. Not surprising since IBM has always been "market-driven" as opposed to technology-driven, and CEOs (who are mostly all very tight with big blue) have always wanted to be able to hire secretaries for something other than their transcription speed - the joke being that the prefered "job requirement" does sound a lot like dictation. It would not surprise anyone, that in addition to the video capabilities, IBM also will have the speech recognition problem nearly tackled by 2006. But caveat - many futurologists have been overly optimistic about that subject (seamless speech recognition) before. The next year will be particularly "telling" in regard to that all-important stepping stone for "strong AI." The three firms claim that the "Cell chip" (why don't they just go ahead and call it a neo-ron ?) will be10 times more powerful than Pentiums and capable of handling 16 teraflops. My feeling is that 100 of these chips and the supporting hardware and memory, will end up being "human equivalent" in processing power for most tasks and way,way ahead in others, like math. Now when you think about how complex a single floating point operation (flop) is... that is, for the human brain to handle, even one per second for long periods - this cannot be done by any human. But this is not apples-to-apples, as Terry and others complain. True, but futurologists... and most of us on Vo are in that category, if not by occupation, then by avocation... and most of us should be more interested in the **trend** rather than in the exact cross-comparison. The next few years are going to be most interesting... for any number of reasons, and if nothing else, as far as the "new energy" goes, it looks exciting. We can see that there will be no problem whatever in using the power of an XBox to control the parameters of an energy cell which may be extremely dependent on operating within extremely narrow overlapping parameters involving heat, pressure, frequency, voltage & current and in several separate linked systems, such as high pressure on one side of a membrane and near vacuum on the other side. That kind of control may require adding a few DSPs to the "neo-ron chip" array. But eventually, in order to harness LENR, it may well be necessary to have this kind of nanosecond level of control - especially if LENR is indeed a "QM enhanced-probability regime," as many suspect. With QM, as it now seems, the generaliztion is - when you can "control time," as it were, then you can defeat any external restriction - such as the so-called second "law" (or generalization) of thermodynamics. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:16:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IGGWlS014382; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:16:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IGG40b014098; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:16:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:16:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518121256.03e54020 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:14:21 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Latest Ni-CF papers from Piantelli uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10224953==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10224953==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have uploaded two papers by the Piantelli group, submitted to ICCF-11. See: CampariEGphotonandp.pdf Campari, E.G., et al. Photon and particle emission, heat production and surface transformation in Ni-H system. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. CampariEGsurfaceana.pdf Campari, E.G., et al. Surface Analysis of hydrogen loaded nickel alloys. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. - Jed --=====================_10224953==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I have uploaded two papers by the Piantelli group, submitted to ICCF-11. See:

CampariEGphotonandp.pdf

Campari, E.G., et al. Photon and particle emission, heat production and surface transformation in Ni-H system. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.

CampariEGsurfaceana.pdf

Campari, E.G., et al. Surface Analysis of hydrogen loaded nickel alloys. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.

- Jed
--=====================_10224953==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:21:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IGL1Nl018092; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:21:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IGBgi6010642; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:11:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:11:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518115945.03e4b620 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:11:26 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: What's the deal with redox batteries? In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF52E CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF52E CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Zell wrote: >Where's the mass commercialization of this promising technology? ( they >keep promising!) Who knows. My guess is that it does not work as well as they wish it did. It wears out quickly, or explodes. >I personally believe that ONE GOOD BATTERY could solve most of our >energy woes, defeat the terrorists, bankrupt OPEC, and stop >the global warming controversy. The device described at vanadiumbattery.com is a conventional electric power storage battery, except you can replace all of the electrolyte quickly, giving it the same advantage that a fuel cell has. I can see where this kind of improved storage battery would make a big difference, especially with transportation. It probably would put OPEC out of business over the long term, but it would take 30 years, I suppose, because we would have to build lots of electric power generators and so on. A ZPE or CF battery-like device would do the job overnight. But we should not call that a "battery" -- although some people have, especially when referring to the tritium powered gadgets. That terminology confuses the issue. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:34:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IGURO5024441; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:33:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IGFXME013638; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:15:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:15:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Cavitation neutrons-was; Blast from the past- Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:18:11 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-reply-to: <001001c55bb1$77c2c7c0$80027841 xptower> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The internet gets drunk sometimes and forgets things, RC... Youds patents are in various specific countries, seemingly none in the US. NZ511385 Sonified vortex machine for communition and treatment of solids GB2354232 Cyclone apparatus for treating sewage GB2337514 Crystalline structure enhancer; calcining gypsum ZA9801137 Apparatus for processing a material and fan therefor Here's one app. WO0112332 METHODS AND APPARATUS FOR SEWAGE PROCESSING AND TREATMENT There's more stuff, but I've got to move on. This'll get you going anyway. K. -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:57 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cavitation neutrons-was; Blast from the past- In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 17 May 2005 07:15:53 -0500: Hi, >Hi Robin, >The M.W.Youds website mentions patents for his device operating at 7225 RPM >to achieve the result he reported. He mentioned gamma radiation present so >we are careful. I found loads of stuff on his web page, but no patents. Could you supply the patent number? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandon http://www.vortexi.com/ This is one link that mentions patents although I cannot fit what is what. More details on the device was posted some time back on www,fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/youlds/htm but the Greenfield link has been cut. As is the case for so much posted on the net.. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:39:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IGccNl029963; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:38:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IGcHVJ029779; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:38:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:38:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518121535.03e63710 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:16:21 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Latest Ni-CF papers from Piantelli uploaded - oops! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10344359==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10344359==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hold off downloading this one: CampariEGsurfaceana.pdf Campari, E.G., et al. Surface Analysis of hydrogen loaded nickel alloys. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. The format got messed up converting to Acrobat. I will upload a new version shortly. - Jed --=====================_10344359==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hold off downloading this one:

CampariEGsurfaceana.pdf

Campari, E.G., et al. Surface Analysis of hydrogen loaded nickel alloys. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.

The format got messed up converting to Acrobat. I will upload a new version shortly.

- Jed
--=====================_10344359==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:39:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IGdDNl030383; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:39:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IGbTLJ029270; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:37:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:37:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Wind Mapped Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:55:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050518155559.EKLB11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.physorg.com/news4117.html "The authors found that the locations with sustainable Class 3 winds could produce approximately 72 terawatts and that capturing even a fraction of that energy could provide the 1.6-1.8 terawatts that made up the world's electricity usage in the year 2000." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:43:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IGgoNl000657; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:42:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IGglwV000617; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:42:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:42:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518124209.03e4bba0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:42:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Latest Ni-CF papers from Piantelli . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_11918250==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_11918250==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Okay, this one is fixed: CampariEGsurfaceana.pdf - Jed --=====================_11918250==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Okay, this one is fixed:

CampariEGsurfaceana.pdf

- Jed
--=====================_11918250==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:51:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IGpTNl006211; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:51:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IGoWN7005640; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:50:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:50:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Google Maps Object Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:50:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050518165018.FPBJ11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Any guesses as to what it is? http://rense.com/general65/massv.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 09:58:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IGwENl010072; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:58:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IGvjOb009789; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:57:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:57:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dob0$s20jt6 mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,118,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="941641638:sNHT14898192" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The Nick Cook Interview Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:27:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_0tmoD.A.iYC.HQ3iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: thomas malloy ... > Nick Cook, author of Hunt for the Zero Point was > interviewed on C to C AM recently. He maintains that > we are on the verge of cohering the ZPE. While I would > love to see this work, I've yet to see any > evidence of it. I'm wondering if anyone has read > his book? He is in the process of setting up a website, > and perhaps he will take questions. Until I see some > experimental evidence for his claims, I will continue > to regard both his first and the forthcoming second > book as just more vaporware. > Hello Thomas, I, too, read Mr. Pope's book a couple of years ago. FWIW, I had the chance to ask a principal Roswell UFO investigator in person his opinion of Nick's description of the World War 2, WWII, "Foo Fighters". He pointed out a major inaccuracy in Nick's accounting. According to the investigator BOTH SIDES of the war had actually reported sighting "Foo Fighters", not just the Americans and British. It would appear that Nick only chose to write accounts on what our side of WWII had witnessed. This would seem to indicate to me that Nick, on occasion, was selective on what he chose to write about. A personal bias, if you will. Setting such inaccuracies aside, "Hunt for Zero Point" was an exciting read. It was also filled with a lots of antidotal stories that were difficult to verify. I noticed that after I gained distance and more perspective Nick's occasionally fantastic accounts started to feel less satisfying to me. Nick's book pointed me to the interesting works of Thomas Townsend Brown, which in its current incarnation is known as "Lifter Technology" and can be viewed at many websites such as American Antigravity. See: http://www.americanantigravity.com, and of course at JLN labs, see: http://jnaudin.free.fr. Mr. Pope brought to my attention the works of Tom Bearden, whom I assume is still considered by many to be a major contributor in the ZPE field. As you may recall in the epilog of Nick's book he briefly discusses the Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (MEG) patent which Bearden & Co. submitted to the U.S. Patent office. Nick makes the hopeful prediction that we may be witnessing the beginning stages of a brand new form of free energy which, in turn, would kick off a major paradigm shift. Personally, I don't know what others within Vortex-l may feel about the works of Bearden. For now, I will assume most choose to keep an eye on what goes on in his labs, perhaps wishing him the best of luck. But like a lot of other labs working in this highly controversial field he has yet to reveal a prototype to the general public. Indirectly, Nick's book had been responsible for me stumbling across Black Light Power, Dr. Randall Mills, the Hydrino Discussion group and, of course, the Vortex-l discussion group. (Actually, it was Mr. Carrell who was DIRECTLY responsible for pointing me in the direction of Vortex-l.) Since then I've enjoyed having the privilege to on occasion discuss controversial matters with the best group of mad scientist I can imagine. In the final analysis: It really wasn't the content of what was in Nick Pope's book that turned out to be all that significant for me. Instead, it was Nick's enthusiasm in his pursuit of controversial fields that rubbed off, motivating me to pursue my own inquiries. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 10:12:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IHBWZp017576; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:11:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IHBTMp017531; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:11:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:11:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ITTpxdfs6M7BbNxxwCmLATCeqL7GnOwHd1PP0/d+6pxQT3eya1JZnNW6UVOn1C9vcISmJrGeoCye6W8CkWUNFyiR39cfBcYwDXyy2v2/uwrldgMACfoUb3jnPRlZvY1/iHdG2thYvkFmzGCdkKIfRvTZ5giyuNpyekSC2ncw06s= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:11:18 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Google Maps Object In-Reply-To: <20050518165018.FPBJ11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050518165018.FPBJ11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4IHBQZp017409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: theres seven of them. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.748651,-80.189370&ll=26.749552,-80.189413&spn =0.003819,0.007918&t=k&hl=en http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.901956,-80.074550&ll=26.902224,-80.077103&spn =0.003819,0.007918&t=k&hl=en http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.901956,-80.245299&spn=0.003819,0.007918&t=k&h l=en http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.901956,-80.302420&ll=26.902760,-80.302355&spn =0.003819,0.007918&t=k&hl=en http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.901956,-80.302420&ll=26.902760,-80.302355&spn =0.003819,0.007918&t=k&hl=en http://maps.google.com/maps?q=27.002249,-80.245299&ll=27.002560,-80.244001&spn =0.003819,0.007918&t=k&hl=en and,,, just connect the dots http://googlesightseeing.com/wp-content/alien.jpg On 5/18/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > Any guesses as to what it is? > > http://rense.com/general65/massv.htm > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 11:29:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IITBKo002167; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:29:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IIT2fn002052; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:29:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:29:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b61h$906n7o mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,118,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="302210296:sNHT14149054" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The Nick Cook Interview Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:43:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Note: This is a repeat send. Vortex seems to be once again experiencing problems, at least from my end of things. > From: thomas malloy ... > Nick Cook, author of Hunt for the Zero Point was > interviewed on C to C AM recently. He maintains that > we are on the verge of cohering the ZPE. While I would > love to see this work, I've yet to see any > evidence of it. I'm wondering if anyone has read > his book? He is in the process of setting up a website, > and perhaps he will take questions. Until I see some > experimental evidence for his claims, I will continue > to regard both his first and the forthcoming second > book as just more vaporware. > Hello Thomas, I, too, read Mr. Pope's book a couple of years ago. FWIW, I had the chance to ask a principal Roswell UFO investigator in person his opinion of Nick's description of the World War 2, WWII, "Foo Fighters". He pointed out a major inaccuracy in Nick's accounting. According to the investigator BOTH SIDES of the war had actually reported sighting "Foo Fighters", not just the Americans and British. It would appear that Nick only chose to write accounts on what our side of WWII had witnessed. This would seem to indicate to me that Nick, on occasion, was selective on what he chose to write about. A personal bias, if you will. Setting such inaccuracies aside, "Hunt for Zero Point" was an exciting read. It was also filled with a lots of antidotal stories that were difficult to verify. I noticed that after I gained distance and more perspective Nick's occasionally fantastic accounts started to feel less satisfying to me. Nick's book pointed me to the interesting works of Thomas Townsend Brown, which in its current incarnation is known as "Lifter Technology" and can be viewed at many websites such as American Antigravity. See: http://www.americanantigravity.com and of course at JLN labs, see: http://jnaudin.free.fr. Mr. Pope brought to my attention the works of Tom Bearden, whom I assume is still considered by many to be a major contributor in the ZPE field. As you may recall in the epilog of Nick's book he briefly discusses the Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (MEG) patent which Bearden & Co. submitted to the U.S. Patent office. Nick makes the hopeful prediction that we may be witnessing the beginning stages of a brand new form of free energy which, in turn, would kick off a major paradigm shift. Personally, I don't know what others within Vortex-l may feel about the works of Bearden. For now, I will assume most choose to keep an eye on what goes on in his labs, perhaps wishing him the best of luck. But like a lot of other labs working in this highly controversial field he has yet to reveal a prototype to the general public. Indirectly, Nick's book had been responsible for me stumbling across Black Light Power, Dr. Randall Mills, the Hydrino Discussion group and, of course, the Vortex-l discussion group. (Actually, it was Mr. Carrell who was DIRECTLY responsible for pointing me in the direction of Vortex-l.) Since then I've enjoyed having the privilege to on occasion discuss controversial matters with the best group of mad scientist I can imagine. In the final analysis: It really wasn't the content of what was in Nick Pope's book that turned out to be all that significant for me. Instead, it was Nick's enthusiasm in his pursuit of controversial fields that rubbed off, motivating me to pursue my own inquiries. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 11:41:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IIf7Ko009020; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:41:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IIf4ig008986; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:41:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:41:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518141548.03e60eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:38:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wind Mapped In-Reply-To: <20050518155559.EKLB11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050518155559.EKLB11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Estimates of available wind energy keep increasing with each study. This is not because previous researchers were incompetent. I believe the main reason is because new generations of wind turbines are taller, and they sweep a larger cross-section of the atmosphere. This study measures wind century at 80 m, which is the "hub height of a modern wind turbine." I doubt that the older ones even reached as high as 80 m at the top of the arc. I wonder how high they could be built with present day technology? I guess the limiting factor is the blade, rather than the tower. If you could build wind turbines or solar chimneys several kilometers high, you could easily generate all the energy we need. This study indicates that we would require "millions" of wind turbines worldwide to supply all energy, by collecting 20% of the wind energy available at 80 m. I did some back of the envelope calculations and I also came up with millions. (It depends on many factors but anyway, the number is not 100,000 or 100 million.) In the US, the number would be roughly comparable to the number of long-haul trucks. Millions of wind turbines around the world would certainly be a blight on the landscape. Strictly from an aesthetic point of view, I would prefer to see a thousand nuclear power plants rather than a million wind turbines. But the wind turbines would probably be cheaper and safer, and less polluting when you take into account pollution from uranium mining and processing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 11:47:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IIlQNV013410; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:47:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IIl8Mf013244; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:47:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:47:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=bvWB3GARmDqr3C5uPZ/Gt1Y5Yu4USFllTxyKv3nG48fX+l/T2Q3AQ/jjwg4FP9tRiRcJg4ni47eos1VdB7hzSJpQ8lTXuvnHP/XTcbEyXPg2XplqFQgZnwKFvUCKBag3wnYuxxEFyQ1l53wXjwUdYIKWpYp7zHY/0yATmKPRPMw= ; Message-ID: <20050518184642.49749.qmail web60925.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:46:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Subject: Re: Google Maps Object To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Any guesses as to what it is? > > http://rense.com/general65/massv.htm That is interesting. Hard to say what it is. Could it be a gamma or x-ray that hit the ccd? Paul __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 11:50:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IIniNV015011; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:49:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IInfN2014983; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:49:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:49:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:49:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050518184932.IJSX11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Jed Rothwell > Millions of wind turbines > around the world would certainly be a blight on the landscape. Odd that people feel that way. Tulips, wooden shoes, funky bonnets, and windmills seem to define the Dutch. I suspect we are into the hundreds of thousands of cell phone sites. Pity we can't make those bloody antennae rotate in the wind. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 11:56:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IIuXNV019318; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:56:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IIuVCN019294; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:56:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:56:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Google Maps Object Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:56:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050518185624.IOPR11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-FnNeD.A.ZtE.f_4iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Paul > That is interesting. Hard to say what it is. Could > it be a gamma or x-ray that hit the ccd? > > Paul Perhaps. I've been trying to find the shadow without success. It *does* seem to be outside the focal field of the lens but looks real. Noting the humorous post by leaking pen, it's possible that some of those images were taken in sequence and the 'orb' is the same item in some of the frames. Hmmm, Paul, you're the bloke giving prometheus such a hard time in that group. Good show! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 12:08:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IJ88NV025696; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:08:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IJ80Rh025609; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:08:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:08:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518145558.03e6a1f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:07:43 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re: Wind Mapped In-Reply-To: <20050518184932.IJSX11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050518184932.IJSX11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Millions of wind turbines > > around the world would certainly be a blight on the landscape. > >Odd that people feel that way. Tulips, wooden shoes, funky bonnets, and >windmills seem to define the Dutch. We had this discussion here last month. As I said, a certain number wind turbines would be okay with me, but I would not want them visible from every national park and on every skyline. I feel the same way about highways, skyscrapers, dams and other large, visible infrastructure. The skyline of a large city such as New York or downtown Atlanta is pleasing to see. But if we built large buildings everywhere, crowding the whole sky from Florida to New England, it would be a nightmare. All things in moderation. >I suspect we are into the hundreds of thousands of cell phone sites. Pity >we can't make those bloody antennae rotate in the wind. :-) People complain about cell phone towers, and they should. Those things are ugly. Many nowadays are being disguised as into landscape in various ways. Many are built into church steeples. Some are in the shape of large trees or other natural objects. Up close you would never be fooled by one, but from a distance it is better than seeing an ugly, disruptive structure in a pastoral landscape. Here is a site that says there are about 130,000 cell phone towers and roughly 32,000 are fake trees, with fractal geometry: http://www.fraudfrond.com/ - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 12:09:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IJ9CNV026317; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:09:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IJ93P6026224; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:09:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:09:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:08:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: "eggbeater" windmills/was Re: Wind Mapped In-reply-to: <20050518184932.IJSX11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has all research into the egg-beater wind mill ceased? As I understand it, the first research model's were unstable, but in theory aren't they more efficient than conventional wind mills? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 12:33:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IJWQNV005680; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:33:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IJWNp0005638; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:32:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:32:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LwAh7HksoU8c92xFsfKqPRmVj9DrMvApFzoQb73ImG6SW17pkrHNi9Mdajipdi27QI6xLOfxJ7whs2a/rA5q8m4CSsPEyLDXxbxDwqZKW8QVLVkoqldZ+z/ThFUsqq2RZZRClGfbYEI6hrKusg69tdPr7tDi5tbHKWUMnBYz56c= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:32:06 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Google Maps Object In-Reply-To: <20050518185624.IOPR11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050518185624.IOPR11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4IJWFNV005474 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: honestly? it looks like a stickpin. the images on google maps are actually scans of printouts of the original satellite imagery, not direct digital pics. (this done to allow the placement of blurs in certain areas, as well as alignment with road maps.) i think they are likely an artifact from that proccess. On 5/18/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > > From: Paul > > > That is interesting. Hard to say what it is. Could > > it be a gamma or x-ray that hit the ccd? > > > > Paul > > Perhaps. I've been trying to find the shadow without success. It *does* seem to be outside the focal field of the lens but looks real. Noting the humorous post by leaking pen, it's possible that some of those images were taken in sequence and the 'orb' is the same item in some of the frames. > > Hmmm, Paul, you're the bloke giving prometheus such a hard time in that group. Good show! > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 12:33:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IJWLNV005596; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:33:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IJWCEV005504; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:32:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:32:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:31:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050518193154.JMNV11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Jed Rothwell Here is a site that says there are about 130,000 cell > phone towers and roughly 32,000 are fake trees, with fractal geometry: > > http://www.fraudfrond.com/ My favorite is the one near the GM plant in Doraville with the Crosses. Hmmm, I should design one for my wife's Synagogue with Solomon's Seal. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 12:37:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IJaLUQ007987; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:36:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IJaJxV007966; Wed, 18 May 2005 12:36:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:36:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050518193610.0099f12c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:36:10 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Linear Magnet Accelerator Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:22 am 18/05/2005 -0500, John wrote: > Not sure if it is significant or not but there is an attachment to this > patent at the end of the images that retracts claims 26, 27, and 28. No > reason is given. The retraction is not represented in the text only > version.... > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/net > ahtml/search-bool.html&r=22&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=4,151,431&OS=4,151,43 > 1&RS=4,151,431 > > The infamous Mr. Duggan was the examiner no less... isn't he the one > typically vilified for crapping all over anything that even hints of > perpetual motion? Additionally, this patent is the foundation of 21 others. > The latest issued in 2004. I have not read through them all yet, but it is > clear and plainly stated in the summary of the invention of the ones I have > that the goal is rotary motive power without an external power supply... > > Something is missing here. This is a significant body of work overall by > multiple individuals over an extended period of time. What has nothing ever > commercialized? > > john That is the sixty four trillion dollar question. It could be for the reason I mentioned in the previous post, i.e. the energy is being drawn from the magnet in some way - restoring the equality between spin-up and spin-down perhaps. Or, it could be that there are scale effects so that when one tries to make a worthwhile machine the output doesn't justify the expense compared with solar, say. Or people are just fiddling about without any adequate underlying philosophy of what is happening. Which reminds me of 3 cakes I baked earlier ;-) on the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo group. =================================================== ------------------------------------------ I must go down to the seas again, To the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship And a star to steer her by; And the wheel's kick and the wind's song And the white sail's shaking, And a gray mist on the sea's face, And a gray dawn breaking. I must go down to the seas again, For the call of the running tide Is a wild call and a clear call That may not be denied; And all I ask is a windy day With the white clouds flying, And the flung spray and the blown spume, And the sea-gulls crying. I must go down to the seas again, To the vagrant gypsy life, To the gull's way and the whale's way, Where the wind's like a whetted knife; And all I ask is a merry yarn >From a laughing fellow-rover, And quiet sleep and a sweet dream When the long trick's over. John Masefield ------------------------------------------- Let us suppose, as Keith suggests, that the SMOT works for two in a row. Then there seems no reason why it should not work for a line of SMOTs encircling the earth. And so it would be possible to have a steel ball circling the earth indefinitely at a speed where the input of energy from the spread out magnetic field balanced the losses due to friction and air resistance. In effect we have created an extended magnetic field by coupling together a lot of little fields. But we already have an extended magnetic field, haven't we? We have the earth's magnetic field. Now for simplicity, let us consider the earth's magnetic field in the region of the magnetic equator. The magnetic field acts parallel to the earth's surface and the dip angle is zero. At the magnetic equator a soft iron specimen will be equally attracted to the north and south magnetic poles. If we move a 100 miles north, however, then the attraction to the north pole will be greater than the attraction to the south pole and the specimen will experience a resultant force towards the north pole. Let us assume that our specimen is placed in a 1 mile long evacuated tube running north and south (a longitube ) on a surface which has an extremely low coefficient of friction. The specimen will accelerate under the resultant force towards the north pole. The speed will increase to a point where the sliding resistance force is equal and opposite to the magnetic force. Now there is nothing mysterious about this. Clearly we are obtaining useful energy from the earth's magnetic field. Not very much it is true. But we are not concerned at this point with emasculating the oil sheiks but only with establishing a principle. If we extend our longitube northwards the attractive force increases (which is good) but it also starts dipping downwards (which is bad). At some point in the frozen north it points vertically downwards and our specimen must come to a halt. To take our specimen back along its route to where it started we would have to pay back all the energy gained on the northward journey. So over many complete cycles of back and forth journeys the system is conservative. But note this. If we are only interested in one journey the system is not conservative. So the notion that a magnetic field is conservative has to be qualified. The same argument applies, of course, to gravity. For a man throwing himself off the top of Beachy Head the gravitational wind is definitely not conservative. On a large scale life is conservative. We are born and we die. But on a small scale it definitely isn't. 8-) It would appear that by this ingenious arrangement of north poles facing each other at a slight angle the inventor has created a device which gives a specimen a magnetic kick. Presumably one can get the same out of a planet's gravitational field with the slingshot effect. Now the arrangement of the magnets at an angle to the gravitational field reminded me of something. For a long time I couldn't think what it was. Of course, it is true I have been rabbiting on about the fact that the electric field and the magnetic field couldn't possibly be a right angles because they wouldn't interact if they were, but here we are dealing with magnetic and gravitic fields which do not interact in the same way as E and M - or if they do, the news has never reached Harvaard ;-) Then I realised what I was looking at. I was seeing tacking. To anyone who understands only very elementary mechanics the fact that a sailboat can sail into the wind is rather mysterious. How on earth does it do that? Even when one analyses the forces, it is not simple. It's fairly easy to see how one can sail at an angle downwind - but into the wind??? - that's another ball game entirely. Tacking involves setting up an equilibrium between two winds. The obvious one is the wind on the sail - and the far from obvious one is the wind on the keel. Think of the keel as an underwater sail. But where is the underwater wind? If there is a current flowing then an underwater wind is fair enough - but a sailing boat can tack upwind when there are no currents relative to the sea bed. Ah! but the sailing boat makes its own underwater current/wind by its sideways motion through the water. The point is that the air and water are moving relative to each other. But the sailing boat exists both in the airspace and the water space. By altering its geometry appropriately, i.e. making an angle between the sail and the keel, the boat can sail upwind or upsea. The funny thing is that like the SMOT, sailing upwind must have been discovered well before anyone understood what was going on. Now the SMOT iron ball also encounters two winds. Its keel is in the gravitational field and experiences the gravitational wind - and its sail is in the magnetic wind and experiences a force from this wind which is at an angle to the gravitational wind. But one thing more is needed. The sail and the keel have to be at an angle to each other. If they are in line then the boat wont tack. There has to be this, what shall I call it, this hierarchical strain between them. But permanent ferromagnets do have this built in strain. And that is how they are able to tack up the gravitational wind. Its all very simple when you can see it. Of course, if you are so intellectually challenged as to believe in all that relativity rubbish (S and G) then the congnitive dissonance will be so great that you will never see it - and you will think that the forthcoming gravitational mills of the 21st century must be driven by hidden batteries. ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer ------------------------------------------ et factus est repente de caelo sonus tamquam advenientis spiritus vehementis et replevit totam domum ubi erant sedentes ------------------------------------------ =============================================== There seems to be a strangely prevalent idea that one cannot get continuous work out of a gravitational field because the field is "conservative" - "whatever that might mean" - to quote the Heir Apparent on love. This can easily be shown to be a wildly inaccurate belief. If we fire a space ship out into space and we wish to change its direction then we have to fire a rocket at right angles to the direction of travel. In an increment of time this will accelerate our rocket in a direction perpendicular to the direction of travel. Now if a sideways gravitational wind is blowing then we will be able to save energy and wont need to fire our rocket. The wind will provide the sideways force. This is the principle of slingshot that space vehicle use to alter direction by entering and exiting a planet's gravitational field. If you think about it, if it wasn't for this gravitational energy being continuously supplied to us by the vertical gravitational wind, we would all fly-off at a Wellsian tangent 8-). It seems to me that the SMOT is effectively deflecting this wind in an analogous way that the sails of a windmill deflect the Alpha- atmosphere wind or the vanes in a Harrier jet engine deflects the flow of the gas jet coming from the engine in order to achieve lift. Why, the path of the SMOT ball even traces the outline of a series of turbine fan blades. Cheers Frank ---------------------------------- The Boy stood on the burning deck, Picking his nose like mad, He rolled it up in little balls, And flicked them at his dad. 8^) ---------------------------------- =================================================== Once our eyes are opened we can see that we already have gravitational windmills. Think of a horizontal turbine where the blades are turned by the falling rain. Now the immediate cause of the power extracted from the turbine is the rain drops. They are in effect the gravitational particles which are impacting the turbine blades, bouncing off at right angles say and driving the turbine around in a horizontal plane. In effect, the raindrops constitute quanta of a vertical wind in an analogous way to that of gas molecules constituting quanta of a horizontal wind. Before the discovery of universal gravitation the explanation for the source of power would have ended there - at the raindrops. It would be a kind of intermittent gravitation. If the vertical gravitation wind behaved in the same way as the vertical raindrop wind then on a fine summer morning we would get up and find we could float around on a gravitational windless day. Now a man living in a windy desert where rain never fell would be very puzzled by stories of this vertical wind and the turbines it drove. HW (Horizontal Wind) man could understand an atmospheric wind which blew on his traditional windmills. That came from the west and disappeared off to the east. But this vertical wind? Where did that disappear to? The VW (Vertical Wind) man with the raindrop wind doesn't know where his wind goes to since it is before there is any knowledge of the action of heat on water, evaporation and all that jazz. He presumes it sinks into the ground or if he lives by the sea-side the wind finishes up in the sea. But, frankly, VW man doesn't care what happens to it. He's not a scientist, he's an engineer and all he cares about is the fact his turbine generates electricity which keeps the lights on and the washing machine going. When VW isn't blowing VW man runs things on batteries just like HW man when HW isn't blowing. Now it seems to me that the SMOT ball is analogous to a raindrop being evapourated by the magnetic field. The precise mechanics don't matter to us any more than how the rain manages to get up into the clouds matters to VW man. If we can establish a cycle of just two drops then we have established a point of principle. We don't have to circle the ball around to its original starting point. It is quite sufficient that we establish without any doubt that we can get one SMOT feeding another to give us two drops. We can use the technique I learned in surveying to eliminate the possibility of two drops arising from below-threshold-of-perception difference in the 2 SMOTs by reversing both direction and order to give us. -> A -> B -> ; -> B -> A -> ; <- A <- B <- ; <- B <- A <- . If that can be demonstrated then as far as I am concerned one is home and dry. To insist that the ball is returned to its original starting point is both unreasonably demanding and unnecessary. The above experiment will show that it has been returned to its effective starting point and that is quite good enough. The existence of the Finsrud machine ...... http://www.keelynet.com/energy/finsrud.htm ....................................gives me optimism that the above experiment can be successfully carried out. Cheers Frank Grimer ---------------------------------------------------- The quality of mercy is not strained; It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed- It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes. William Shakespeare ---------------------------------------------------- =================================================== Wildly optimistic? Probably. But one may as well look on the bright side, eh! 8-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 13:24:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IKNhgN032021; Wed, 18 May 2005 13:23:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IKNf7f032001; Wed, 18 May 2005 13:23:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:23:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dob0$s2rb5j mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,118,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="942517427:sNHT15690090" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:23:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-ZdaND.A.7zH.MR6iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As Jed recently stated, "All things in moderation" is indeed a good thing to keep in mind. Never the less, Aesthetics, as we all know, is often in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think being forced to view of a multi-mile high solar tower capable of generating power comparable to what a nuclear plant could produce would be truly inspirational. They could easily become viewed as technological monuments of epic proportions instead of as visual blights. They might become the ultimate defining symbol of technology wisely applied in the beginning of the 21st century. Solar Towers could become a daily reminder to all who viewed them how vast amounts of power can be extracted naturally from the environment without raping it. Of course, if ZPE and/or CF is just around the corner all bets are likely off. In the meantime, there's a point to my madness. I don't think it would hurt the population one whit to acquire the same kind of inspirational collective industrious focus John Kennedy had been able to inspire within us of putting a man on the moon by the end of the decade. Constructing mile high Solar Towers is just the kind of VISUALLY inspirational focus that could help unite all sorts of competing factors within our society particularly if a sufficient number of politicians had the vision too see what could ultimately result from their endeavors. This might sound incredibly naive and totally redundant particularly within vortex-l but I truly sense an unconscious but growing desire among many in the population that we really REALLY need to start seriously looking for alternate forms of energy. They feel desperate and helpless not knowing what they can do other than conserve their resources. Meanwhile, most suspect that their personal efforts in conserving are only delaying! the inevitable. It is precisely during these moments of a tangibly growing collective crisis when the population is unconsciously seeking a solution to fend off impending doom. This is precisely the time they would easily WELCOME the idea of focusing their collective nervous energy on the equivalent of another Apollo-like project. The visual inspiration of building Solar Towers could easily become the focal point leading us away from our darkest fears of witnessing a civilization slowing dieing under its own weight. Keep those nervous little hands busy! And like the Apollo project, I can only imagine what kind of spin off technologies might result as well. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 13:30:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IKTLgN002636; Wed, 18 May 2005 13:29:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IKTHr6002591; Wed, 18 May 2005 13:29:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:29:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428BA598.5080203 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:29:12 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Linear Magnet Accelerator References: <2.2.32.20050518193610.0099f12c pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050518193610.0099f12c pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: >There seems to be a strangely prevalent idea >that one cannot get continuous work out of a >gravitational field because the field is >"conservative" - "whatever that might mean" - > > Sounds like a question. In a nutshell, a "conservative" field is one which can be expressed as the gradient of a potential. The necessary and sufficient condition for that is that the field be curl-free. The work you obtain from the field by traversing a closed path is equal to the integral of the curl over the enclosed surface, so if the curl is zero, so's the work obtained as you travel in a loop. Less confusingly, the kinetic energy gained by an object in a conservative field must always be equal to the difference in its potential energy at the end point and starting point of its travel. If it returns to its starting point, its potential energy returns to its original value, and it must have gained no kinetic energy as a result. >This can easily be shown to be a wildly inaccurate belief. > I'm not so sure of that. > If we fire a space ship out >into space and we wish to change its direction >then we have to fire a rocket at right angles >to the direction of travel. In an increment of >time this will accelerate our rocket in a >direction perpendicular to the direction of >travel. Now if a sideways gravitational wind >is blowing then we will be able to save energy >and wont need to fire our rocket. The wind >will provide the sideways force. > Please note that a force applied perpendicular to the line of motion of the ship does no work on it. Work is done at a rate equal to = power = the dot product of the velocity and the force, and if the force and velocity are perpendicular then no work is done. In other words, the kinetic energy of the spaceship isn't increased as a result of a force applied perpendicular to its motion. Of course the kinetic energy as well as the amount of work done are both dependent on the frame of reference in which they're evaluated. >This is the >principle of slingshot that space vehicle use > > The "slingshot" principle, at least as I've heard the term used, is actually a little different from what you've described. "Slingshotting" a space ship is a way of getting a "free lunch" from a massive body, such as Jupiter. There are actually two forms, and both of them are pretty amusing, IMHO. First form: You find a planet going in the same direction as you want your spaceship to go. Have your ship approach the planet from the "front" (in other words, get going the wrong way to start with). Whip around the planet in a close, hyperbolic or parabolic orbit, with the ship coming away from the planet going in the "right direction". From your point of view (sitting on Earth, or hovering in space watching the wheels go around) you will find that the ship is now going _faster_ than it was when it approached the planet. You've gained speed, and energy, for "free" -- no fuel was needed. This technique was used in getting our deep space probes into the outer solar system. The secret is that the planet slowed down, just a little. You stole energy from the planet. This becomes apparent when you consider conservation of momentum: The spaceship's momentum vector is now pointing in the opposite direction, so the planet must have picked up the difference. Second (more amusing) form: Find any old planet, going in any old direction. Send your spacecraft into a hyperbolic orbit around the planet, approaching it as closely as possible. At the moment of closest approach, fire the engines! Accelerate! Lo and behold, when the ship comes up out of the gravity well of the planet, it will be going _FASTER_ than it would have gone had you just fired the engines in empty space. The effect of the engines was "amplified" by using them deep in the planet's gravity well. The somewhat confusing explanation is that, once again, power = = dot product of velocity with force. The force of the engine is the same deep in the planet's gravity well, but the velocity of the craft is much higher. Hence, the spacecraft gains much more energy for the same expenditure of fuel. This technique has also been used by Nasa in some number of cases. I believe this second trick also works by stealing momentum -- and energy -- from the planet which is being flown by but I've never worked out exactly how that happens. >to alter direction by entering and exiting a >planet's gravitational field. If you think >about it, if it wasn't for this gravitational >energy being continuously supplied to us by >the vertical gravitational wind, we would all >fly-off at a Wellsian tangent 8-). > >It seems to me that the SMOT is effectively >deflecting this wind in an analogous way that >the sails of a windmill deflect the Alpha- >atmosphere wind or the vanes in a Harrier jet >engine deflects the flow of the gas jet coming >from the engine in order to achieve lift. Why, >the path of the SMOT ball even traces the >outline of a series of turbine fan blades. > >Cheers > >Frank > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 13:50:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IKndgN013470; Wed, 18 May 2005 13:49:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IKnYvx013419; Wed, 18 May 2005 13:49:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:49:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428BAA5B.3080805 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:49:31 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Linear Magnet Accelerator References: <2.2.32.20050518193610.0099f12c pop.freeserve.net> <428BA598.5080203@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <428BA598.5080203 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > The secret is that the planet slowed down, just a little. You stole > energy from the planet. This becomes apparent when you consider > conservation of momentum: The spaceship's momentum vector is now > pointing in the opposite direction, so the planet must have picked up > the difference. When considering anything involving orbits and spaceships, it's worth keeping in mind that in classical Newtonian mechanics, gravity involves action at a distance, and the rate of propagation of the gravitational field of a moving body is assumed to be infinite. When dealing with things like slow spaceships on close approaches to planets, this approximation is adequate. When you start dealing with very fast moving bodies or with very long distances the propagation delay of the gravitational field becomes important and it's necessary to use a more accurate model. And as soon as you assume a finite propagation rate for the G-field, you also either need to ascribe momentum and energy to the field itself, or you need to find some other way to "make the books balance" (assuming you want to keep conservation of momentum and energy in the model). Sorry -- I've wandered rather far afield here; my fingers got away from me. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 13:55:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IKtHgN016540; Wed, 18 May 2005 13:55:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IKtCDC016497; Wed, 18 May 2005 13:55:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:55:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518163028.03e54580 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:55:02 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <41dob0$s2rb5j mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41dob0$s2rb5j mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1EmYAC.A.mBE.uu6iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Personally, I think being forced to view of a multi-mile high solar tower >capable of generating power comparable to what a nuclear plant could >produce would be truly inspirational. One would be inspirational. One or two in each state would be a local tourist attraction. But if there were thousands and thousands of them, and they were as ubiquitous as McDonald's restaurants, they would be a terrible blight on the landscape. So is McDonald's! So are highways, traffic lights, power lines, cookie-cutter shopping malls, bright lights and auto dealerships. It isn't right to force everyone, everywhere to see this kind of depressing industrial infrastructure. It stunts children's imagination. We should respect the landscape, and not clutter up every hill, every valley, plain and seascape with man-made stuff. I think we would need thousands of towers if each one was roughly as powerful as today's midsized generator plants -- as I gather they would be -- and we derived all energy from them, including energy for transportation. It would be far better to make low, small, compact generators like the nuclear power plants I saw in France from the train, which were hardly visible from a few kilometers away. In the last 30 years, Japan has become the ultimate postmodern environmental man-made hell-hole, with infrastructure of one sort or another just about everywhere. I did not realize how bad it was until I went back a few years ago and revisited some of the places I used to stroll or ride a bicycle. *Everything* has been paved over and replaced with fast-food joints, convenience stores and parking lots. They cleaned up the air and water pollution, but apparently it never occurred to anyone that it would be good idea to leave some natural landscape or green spaces so the kids could see trees and grass and sky instead of overhead wires, concrete and pachinko parlors. I know middle-class Japanese urban children who have never seen a firefly, never mind seeing the stars at night. They have no clue what nature is, aside from what they have seen on TV, and therefore they do not have the slightest respect for it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 14:25:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ILPOgN030602; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:25:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ILPLI5030579; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:25:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:25:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:25:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050518155559.EKLB11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <20050518155559.EKLB11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bells outh.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050518141548.03e60eb0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518141548.03e60eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 18 May 2005 21:25:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4ILPHgN030534 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 18 May 2005 14:38:16 -0400: Hi, [snip] >This study indicates that we would require "millions" of wind turbines >worldwide to supply all energy, by collecting 20% of the wind energy >available at 80 m. I did some back of the envelope calculations and I also >came up with millions. (It depends on many factors but anyway, the number >is not 100,000 or 100 million.) In the US, the number would be roughly >comparable to the number of long-haul trucks. Millions of wind turbines >around the world would certainly be a blight on the landscape. Strictly >from an aesthetic point of view, I would prefer to see a thousand nuclear >power plants rather than a million wind turbines. [snip] The wind turbines should be placed in protected "parks" at sea, and such that they are over the horizon when viewed from land, i.e. not visible from the shore. The wind is steadier there anyway, and faster on average. By placing them in well known and clearly marked "parks", they are not a shipping hazard. Besides, they would then not be taking up space on land. Furthermore, it might be possible to install wave power generators in the sea at the foot of the wind generators, providing an extra source of power, at a reduced installation cost. Among other things, they could share the same power feed lines to the land. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 14:26:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ILPogN030809; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:25:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ILPne5030791; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:25:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050518212544.0099e14c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:25:44 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Linear Magnet Accelerator Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:29 pm 18/05/2005 -0400, Stephen wrote: >Grimer wrote: > >>There seems to be a strangely prevalent idea >>that one cannot get continuous work out of a >>gravitational field because the field is >>"conservative" - "whatever that might mean" - >> >> >Sounds like a question. Rhetorical! 8-). It's not the definition of conservative that I am arguing with but its application. > In a nutshell, a "conservative" field is one which can be expressed as > the gradient of a potential. The necessary and sufficient condition for > that is that the field be curl-free. The work you obtain from the field > by traversing a closed path is equal to the integral of the curl over > the enclosed surface, so if the curl is zero, so's the work obtained as > you travel in a loop. Yep. > Less confusingly, the kinetic energy gained by an object in a > conservative field must always be equal to the difference in its > potential energy at the end point and starting point of its travel. If > it returns to its starting point, its potential energy returns to its > original value, and it must have gained no kinetic energy as a result. > >> This can easily be shown to be a wildly inaccurate belief. >> > I'm not so sure of that. > >> If we fire a space ship out >> into space and we wish to change its direction >> then we have to fire a rocket at right angles >> to the direction of travel. In an increment of >> time this will accelerate our rocket in a >> direction perpendicular to the direction of >> travel. Now if a sideways gravitational wind >> is blowing then we will be able to save energy >> and wont need to fire our rocket. The wind >> will provide the sideways force. >> > Please note that a force applied perpendicular to the line of motion of > the ship does no work on it. Work is done at a rate equal to = > power = the dot product of the velocity and the force, and if the force > and velocity are perpendicular then no work is done. > > In other words, the kinetic energy of the spaceship isn't increased as a > result of a force applied perpendicular to its motion. > > Of course the kinetic energy as well as the amount of work done are both > dependent on the frame of reference in which they're evaluated. Quite so. Like many things in life, it all depends on your point of view. For, example, some people think that materials are held together by internal tensions. I am trying to get them to see (amongst other things) that in reality they are held together by external compressions of a real substance. ;-) >> This is the >> principle of slingshot that space vehicle use >> >> > The "slingshot" principle, at least as I've heard the term used, is > actually a little different from what you've described. > > "Slingshotting" a space ship is a way of getting a "free lunch" from a > massive body, such as Jupiter. There are actually two forms, and both > of them are pretty amusing, IMHO. > > First form: You find a planet going in the same direction as you want > your spaceship to go. Have your ship approach the planet from the > "front" (in other words, get going the wrong way to start with). Whip > around the planet in a close, hyperbolic or parabolic orbit, with the > ship coming away from the planet going in the "right direction". From > your point of view (sitting on Earth, or hovering in space watching the > wheels go around) you will find that the ship is now going _faster_ than > it was when it approached the planet. You've gained speed, and energy, > for "free" -- no fuel was needed. This technique was used in getting > our deep space probes into the outer solar system. > > The secret is that the planet slowed down, just a little. You stole > energy from the planet. This becomes apparent when you consider > conservation of momentum: The spaceship's momentum vector is now > pointing in the opposite direction, so the planet must have picked up > the difference. > Second (more amusing) form: Find any old planet, going in any old > direction. Send your spacecraft into a hyperbolic orbit around the > planet, approaching it as closely as possible. At the moment of closest > approach, fire the engines! Accelerate! Lo and behold, when the ship > comes up out of the gravity well of the planet, it will be going > _FASTER_ than it would have gone had you just fired the engines in empty > space. The effect of the engines was "amplified" by using them deep in > the planet's gravity well. The somewhat confusing explanation is that, > once again, power = = dot product of velocity with force. The > force of the engine is the same deep in the planet's gravity well, but > the velocity of the craft is much higher. Hence, the spacecraft gains > much more energy for the same expenditure of fuel. This technique has > also been used by Nasa in some number of cases. > > I believe this second trick also works by stealing momentum -- and > energy -- from the planet which is being flown by but I've never worked > out exactly how that happens. You would agree then that one can get energy from a gravitational field. OK. The remote source is the KE of the planet but if we start along that line we will finish up with God [or even G-d ;-) ] >>to alter direction by entering and exiting a >>planet's gravitational field. If you think >>about it, if it wasn't for this gravitational >>energy being continuously supplied to us by >>the vertical gravitational wind, we would all >>fly-off at a Wellsian tangent 8-). >> >>It seems to me that the SMOT is effectively >>deflecting this wind in an analogous way that >>the sails of a windmill deflect the Alpha- >>atmosphere wind or the vanes in a Harrier jet >>engine deflects the flow of the gas jet coming >>from the engine in order to achieve lift. Why, >>the path of the SMOT ball even traces the >>outline of a series of turbine fan blades. >> >>Cheers >> >>Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 14:29:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ILSigN000406; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:28:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ILSePO000357; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:28:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:28:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050518212837.009ad5e0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:28:37 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Linear Magnet Accelerator Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:49 pm 18/05/2005 -0400, you wrote: > > >Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> The secret is that the planet slowed down, just a little. You stole >> energy from the planet. This becomes apparent when you consider >> conservation of momentum: The spaceship's momentum vector is now >> pointing in the opposite direction, so the planet must have picked up >> the difference. > >When considering anything involving orbits and spaceships, it's worth >keeping in mind that in classical Newtonian mechanics, gravity involves >action at a distance, and the rate of propagation of the gravitational >field of a moving body is assumed to be infinite. When dealing with >things like slow spaceships on close approaches to planets, this >approximation is adequate. > >When you start dealing with very fast moving bodies or with very long >distances the propagation delay of the gravitational field becomes >important and it's necessary to use a more accurate model. And as soon >as you assume a finite propagation rate for the G-field, you also either >need to ascribe momentum and energy to the field itself, or you need to >find some other way to "make the books balance" (assuming you want to >keep conservation of momentum and energy in the model). > >Sorry -- I've wandered rather far afield here; my fingers got away from me. I'll forgive you. It happens to all of us. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 14:42:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ILg8gN006663; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:42:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ILfxd1006540; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:41:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:41:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050518214146.009c6044 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:41:46 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:55 pm 18/05/2005 -0400, Jed wrote: >orionworks charter.net wrote: >*Everything* has been paved over and replaced with >fast-food joints, convenience stores and parking lots. They cleaned up the >air and water pollution, but apparently it never occurred to anyone that it >would be good idea to leave some natural landscape or green spaces so the >kids could see trees and grass and sky instead of overhead wires, concrete >and pachinko parlors. Surely, man is part of nature, and the Eifel tower is as natural as an ant hill. Or do ants consider all those enormous anthills a blot on their landscape? Speaking as a civil engineer and a christian I'm all for levelling every hill and filling every valley. After all, it's only in the last hundred years or so that people have fallen in love with mountainous landscapes. I suppose if people don't have a god to worship then they will seize upon a golden calf - or nature - or even Elvis Presley and the Beatles. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 14:56:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ILuVgN012695; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:56:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ILuSod012656; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:56:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:56:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dob0$s31vou mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,118,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="942735134:sNHT14376436" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:56:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > One would be inspirational. One or two in each state > would be a local tourist attraction. But if there were > thousands and thousands of them, and they were as > ubiquitous as McDonald's restaurants, they would be a > terrible blight on the landscape. So is McDonald's! So > are highways, traffic lights, power lines, cookie-cutter > shopping malls, bright lights and auto dealerships. It > isn't right to force everyone, everywhere to see this > kind of depressing industrial infrastructure. It stunts > children's imagination. We should respect the landscape, > and not clutter up every hill, every valley, plain and > seascape with man-made stuff. Well, Jed, I sympathize with much of what you say. I'm also not against a more sensible approach to using nuclear power either. But "stunting children's imagination"? I don't think so. I will only reiterate that constructing thousands of mile-high solar towers all over the U.S. should not be compared to that of viewing thousands of McDonald restaurants. Also, it seems likely to me that Solar Towers could end up freeing a considerable amount of real estate that otherwise would have been tied up in concrete and other ugly man-made structures. The more savvy within Vortex-l may suspect that this debate has as much to do about working out our different perspectives on cultural aesthetics as it has to do over whether the underlying technologically is feasible in the first place. I gather you feel an Apollo-like national project where thousands of solar towers would eventually be built would be an absolute blight upon our landscape. Personally, I'm not so sure, especially if thousands of solar towers end up freeing more real estate for the fireflies. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 15:08:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IM80gN018771; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:08:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IM7uqi018739; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:07:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:07:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518175443.03e68b00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:07:38 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050518214146.009c6044 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050518214146.009c6044 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: >Surely, man is part of nature, and the Eifel tower is as natural as an ant >hill. >Or do ants consider all those enormous anthills a blot on their landscape? If those African ants come over here as invasive species and start building their hills everywhere, *I* will consider it an eyesore. I don't care what the ants think. We already have mountains of invasive kudzu. >Speaking as a civil engineer and a christian I'm all for levelling every >hill and filling every valley. Har, har. >After all, it's only in the last hundred years or so that people have >fallen in love with mountainous landscapes. Except in place like Japan where they used to consider Fuji and other mountains sacred, and Israel, and a few other places I can think of. Not nowadays though, I will grant. Seriously, the tower now being planned in Australia will be 1 km tall and it will take up 10,000 ha on the ground. It will produce 200 MW. Just to generate electricity, the US would need at least 2,500 towers on this scale: several hundred in populated states, dozens in less populated areas. There will be no place left in the US where a tower would not be visible. No child would ever grow up seeing a natural, uncluttered landscape. If the tower -- or something similar like a space-based power system ground installation -- produced 5,000 MW, that would be a different story. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 15:21:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IMLXgN024848; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:21:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IMLVPT024829; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:21:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:21:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c55bf7$ed2609f0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: OT: Oil for Food fight/ Galloway's retort Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:20:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C55BCD.DDA81290" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1uLB1B.A.5DG.r_7iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C55BCD.DDA81290 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C55BCD.DDA81290" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C55BCD.DDA81290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Reported by the Washington Bureau written by David Ivanovich. The US Senate received a taste of George Galloway, a member of = Parliament from Britain. Responding to a Senate inquiry, Galloway belittled the inquiry as " = utterly preposterous" and challenged the Senators on the fairness of the panel that would smear his name " without ever = having asked me a single questiuon". Stating " I know that standards have slipped over the last few years = here in Washington.. But for a lawyer, you're remarkably cavalier with = any idea of justice". Galloway mocked investigators for an error he described as a "schoolboy = howler". And in a voice dripping with sarcasm, Galloway questioned the = credibility of any information from Ramadan. " He's your prisoner, he's = in Abu Ghraib prison. I believe he is facing war crimes, charges = punishable by death. Knowing what the world knows about how you treat = prisoners in Abu Ghraib.. I'm not sure how much credibility anyone would = put on anything you manage to get from a prisoner in those = circumstances", US Senators must be careful when debating a member of Parliament , else = they wind up on the wrong end of a Shakespearian drama. Never try to = teach a Brit the fine art of debate or how to suck eggs. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C55BCD.DDA81290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 Reported by the Washington Bureau written by David = Ivanovich.
 
The US Senate received a taste of George Galloway, a member of = Parliament=20  from Britain.
 
Responding to a Senate inquiry, Galloway belittled the inquiry as " = utterly=20 preposterous" and challenged the Senators on
the fairness of the panel that would smear his name " without ever = having=20 asked me a single questiuon".
 
Stating " I know that standards have slipped over the last few = years here=20 in Washington.. But for a lawyer, you're remarkably cavalier with any = idea of=20 justice".
 
Galloway mocked investigators for an error he described as a =20 "schoolboy howler".
 
And in a voice dripping with sarcasm, Galloway questioned the = credibility=20 of any information from Ramadan. " He's your prisoner, he's in Abu = Ghraib=20 prison. I believe he is facing war crimes, charges punishable by death. = Knowing=20 what the world knows about how you treat prisoners in Abu Ghraib.. I'm = not sure=20 how much credibility anyone would put on anything you manage to get from = a=20 prisoner in those circumstances",
 
US Senators must be careful when debating a member of Parliament , = else=20 they wind up on the wrong end of a Shakespearian drama. Never try to = teach a=20 Brit the fine art of debate or how to suck eggs.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C55BCD.DDA81290-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C55BCD.DDA81290 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c55bf7$c66ed850$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C55BCD.DDA81290-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 15:28:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IMRlgN028479; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:27:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IMRhWS028400; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:27:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:27:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c55bf8$b99cb880$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20050518214146.009c6044 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:27:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <92aY1.A.l7G.bF8iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, consider the amount of energy expended daily in the quest to reduce fat. People actually pay money to go to the spa and workout. Couple the electric power output from the treadmill to batteries and the energy problem solves itself. Better still ride a bicycle as we will all be riding one soon enough.. the most efficent form of transportation the world has seen to date. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications > At 04:55 pm 18/05/2005 -0400, Jed wrote: >>orionworks charter.net wrote: > >>*Everything* has been paved over and replaced with >>fast-food joints, convenience stores and parking lots. They cleaned up the >>air and water pollution, but apparently it never occurred to anyone that >>it >>would be good idea to leave some natural landscape or green spaces so the >>kids could see trees and grass and sky instead of overhead wires, concrete >>and pachinko parlors. > > > Surely, man is part of nature, and the Eifel tower is as natural as an ant > hill. > Or do ants consider all those enormous anthills a blot on their landscape? > Speaking as a civil engineer and a christian I'm all for levelling every > hill and filling every valley. After all, it's only in the last hundred > years or so that people have fallen in love with mountainous landscapes. > > I suppose if people don't have a god to worship then they will seize upon > a > golden calf - or nature - or even Elvis Presley and the Beatles. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 15:38:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IMchgN002059; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:38:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IMccxk002006; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:38:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:38:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518181858.03e4cd70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:38:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <41dob0$s31vou mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41dob0$s31vou mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >But "stunting children's imagination"? I don't think so. You don't think so? Frankly, I consider that another symptom of our debased civilization. People in Japan do not think there is anything wrong with children growing up never seeing a firefly or a clear stream of potable water. Do you really think it is okay to surround people with an artificial environment every minute of their lives, always within sight of some man-made structure? I suppose it would be unavoidable on the moon, but I do not think we should live that way here on earth. There is a famous children's song ("Takibi") about how jolly it is to gather your friends and make a bonfire with the autumn leaves. They still sing that song in school I expect, but if a group of kids in Japan tried to make a bonfire now the police and fire department would show up in five minutes and the kids would be expelled from school. Heck, I expect they would end up on the seven o'clock news. Chris Tinsley is to say that if a modern-day Tom Sawyer tried to drift down the Mississippi he would be arrested in no time. It is even worse in Japan. >I will only reiterate that constructing thousands of mile-high solar >towers all over the U.S. should not be compared to that of viewing >thousands of McDonald restaurants. Frankly it would be worse. I personally do not have to look at the damned McDonald's -- or eat there! -- but I could not escape the towers. It would be as bad as the highway system. > Also, it seems likely to me that Solar Towers could end up freeing a > considerable amount of real estate that otherwise would have been tied up > in concrete and other ugly man-made structures. Why would it do that?!? I do not see how it would free up a single hectare. We will still need as many highways and fast food joints as we now have. The towers would take up far more ground level space than present-day coal gas and nuclear power plants do. Wind towers would also be a very significant aesthetic problem if millions of them were constructed. At least they would not be quite so high in the sky, and they would take up less ground space. Robin van Spaandonk suggested that most wind farms would be offshore. It is true that offshore wind is more powerful, and steady, and offshore wind turbines are more economical, but in the US most of our population is too far from the ocean to use offshore wind. (In Northern Europe, Ireland and the UK, offshore wind could supply just about everyone.) Actually, most of the U.S. population is too far from any significant source of wind power. As I have noted before, the only practical way to generate all of our energy from wind would be to convert the energy to hydrogen and ship it in pipelines to population centers. Most of the wind farms would be located mainly in the Dakotas, where I hope they would cause less environmental destruction than present-day fossil fuel extraction does. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 16:04:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4IN43gN016311; Wed, 18 May 2005 16:04:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4IN3wFd016246; Wed, 18 May 2005 16:03:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:03:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050518184756.03e5b880 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:03:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <000f01c55bf8$b99cb880$0100007f xptower> References: <2.2.32.20050518214146.009c6044 pop.freeserve.net> <000f01c55bf8$b99cb880$0100007f xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >Frank, consider the amount of energy expended daily in the quest to >reduce fat. People actually pay money to go to the spa and workout. Couple >the electric power output from the treadmill to batteries and the energy >problem solves itself. The comedian Jon Stewart has often made this suggestion. Its pretty funny, but I am sure everyone here (including Richard!) realizes how impractical it would be. A person doing an intensive workout generates about 200 Watts of mechanical energy I think. At least, I do, while riding a bicycle. (I can calibrate this by turning on and off the 200 W motor on my bicycle.) We consume about 2 kW average over a 24 hour period. So, during a 1-hour workout you need to generate . . . as much energy as 240 slaves rowing a galley. Or 64 horses. It shows how amazingly different our life is, compared to the lives of our ancestors. On a more serious note, this also demonstrates why schemes to use biomass on a large scale are hopeless. We would need at least 20 times more biomass energy than we ourselves consume as food. Since 60% of U.S. the land is already taken up by agriculture, that means we would need 1200% of the land to power our machinery. > Better still ride a bicycle as we will all be riding one soon enough. > the most efficent form of transportation the world has seen to date. By a wide margin! Not only is it the most efficient form of human transport, it is the most efficient form of any animal transport on earth, even better than bird flight, which is the most efficient means of animal movement. Bird flight is both the most energy intensive and the most efficient method of movement. It consumes the most energy per minute but the least energy per kilometer. Soaring birds don't count, and neither do fish or people in canoes carried along by river or ocean currents. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 18:13:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J1DMvx020543; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:13:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J1DKaE020512; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:13:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:13:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050519011309.0096ea18 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:13:09 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4J1DAvx020418 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:07 pm 18/05/2005 -0400, Jed wrote: > Grimer wrote: > >> Surely, man is part of nature, and the Eifel tower is as natural as an ant >> hill. >> Or do ants consider all those enormous anthills a blot on their landscape? > > If those African ants come over here as invasive species and start building > their hills everywhere, *I* will consider it an eyesore. I don't care what > the ants think. We already have mountains of invasive kudzu. Never 'eard of it. I'll have to google. ======================================================= kudˇzu (k?d'zu) n. An eastern Asian vine (Pueraria lobata) having compound leaves and clusters of reddish-purple flowers. It is grown for fodder, forage, and root starch, and is a widespread weed in the southeast United States. ======================================================= Mmm... sounds quite pretty to me. And if you tried to cull it no doubt a SPCK (Society for the Protection of Californian Kudzu) organisation would instantly be formed and start sit down protests outside your front door. ;-) Mind you, I know "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" but I'm no Romeo and I have to admit, the name Kudzu sounds pretty revolting. 8^( Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 18:19:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J1JTvx023791; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:19:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J1JPHa023750; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:19:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:19:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dmd0$rr7g95 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,119,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="934527269:sNHT13562098" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:19:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Orionworks wrote: > Jed Wrote: >> But "stunting children's imagination"? I don't >> think so. > > You don't think so? Frankly, I consider that another > symptom of our debased civilization. People in Japan > do not think there is anything wrong with children > growing up never seeing a firefly or a clear stream > of potable water. Do you really think it is okay to > surround people with an artificial environment every > minute of their lives, always within sight of some > man-made structure? I suppose it would be unavoidable > on the moon, but I do not think we should live that > way here on earth. Personally, I also think it is deplorable that there are parents who are oblivious to raising children that never have the chance to see the miracle of a firefly. Truly tragic. But wait a minute, Jed. There is an absurd aspect to what you're saying! Let me put it differently: That's just plain ridiculous! You tell us it's unhealthy to surround ourselves with an "artificial environment" every minute of our lives. Really???? Forget the moon. Let's stay on Earth. I put it to you that most of us are ALWAYS in sight of (or at least being influenced by) some man-made structure every second of the day. How many individuals within Vortex-l have the privilege of being able to completely extricate themselves from an "artificial environment" - even for just a few seconds of the day? It would appear that in order to live up to your expectations we would have find a way to walk away from our computers, the Internet, our cars & transportation. Turn off the electricity. Walk out of the home we seek shelter from the natural elements. Don't forget that most of the food we eat slowing making its way through our gut is not grown in a natural environment, nor the clothing we wear. Don't forget to remove our glasses. Remove those fillings and crowns, and dentures and other artificial aids too. This is just a short list of artificial structures influencing our personal environments in varying degrees for! which I dare say most of us would prefer not to live without. I for one, prefer not to wear tree bark for a loin cloth nor eat red berries and grubs collected from under a rock, even just for just one second of the day. Come to think of it, being able to view one of those ugly Solar Towers off in the distant horizon might look pretty damn reassuring to me. I would also put it to you that your own speculations on what CF could bring forth ultimately pushes the entire planet even further into an artificially constructed environment every second of the day. I can live with that fate. The alternative would be dire. Please don't misinterpret my little rant as implying I have no interest in the wild or things al-natural. As far as I am concerned we are rapidly loosing valuable natural resources and wilderness areas at an alarming rate. Incidentally, I'm fortunate enough to be in easy walking distance to a small city park. I walk through it often. When I'm walking down one of the paths I'm completely surrounded by doting trees that are caressing me in their protective shade. Walking through this park there would be NO WAY I could view any of those ominous Solar Towers looming on the distant horizon. Perhaps a few thousand solar towers dispersed here and there might just help reverse that horrible trend. Hello Mr. Firefly! Got a hot date tonight? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 18:26:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J1QMvx026897; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:26:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J1QLTk026868; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:26:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:26:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050519012615.00973630 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:26:15 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Resent-Message-ID: <2aoAK.A.vjG.7s-iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:56 pm 18/05/2005 -0400, Steven wrote: > Well, Jed, I sympathize with much of what you say. > I'm also not against a more sensible approach to using > nuclear power either. > > But "stunting children's imagination"? I don't think so. > > I will only reiterate that constructing thousands > of mile-high solar towers all over the U.S. should > not be compared to that of viewing thousands of > McDonald restaurants. Also, it seems likely to me > that Solar Towers could end up freeing a considerable > amount of real estate that otherwise would have been > tied up in concrete and other ugly man-made structures. > > The more savvy within Vortex-l may suspect > that this debate has as much to do about > working out our different perspectives on > cultural aesthetics as it has to do over > whether the underlying technologically is > feasible in the first place. You've got it in one, Steve. 8-) One man's Hindoo cow in Calcutta is another man's Hollywood cow in California. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 18:38:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J1cYvx000339; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:38:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J1cV0S000317; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:38:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:38:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050519013827.0097c7a4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:38:27 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:27 pm 18/05/2005 -0500, Dick wrote: > Frank, consider the amount of energy > expended daily in the quest to reduce > fat. People actually pay money to go > to the spa and workout. Couple the > electric power output from the treadmill > to batteries and the energy problem > solves itself. Better still ride a > bicycle as we will all be riding one soon > enough.. the most efficient form of > transportation the world has seen to > date. > > Richard When I was a boy kitchens were designed to reduce the number of steps that a housewife took. Now they are designed to increase them. It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 18:50:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J1nNvx005170; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:49:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J1n4jA005001; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:49:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:49:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <038901c55c14$ecabf1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Explantion for some caviation OU Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:48:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thinking about Knuke's recent post, and the anomaly he experienced with unfortunate long-term health risks, I believe that I have an answer now and it does not involved neutrons, proliferation risks, nor the increased possibility of terrorism, as some of us feared... nor necessarily hydrinos - but instead a prevalent common household toxic gas- to wit: radon. Although radon is technically a gas, it is so heavy and active that it sticks like glue to many surface-charged dielectrics. The mechanism is as follows: Radon and other volatile radioactive species diffuse from the ground due to the natural decay of uranium and/or thorium which are ubiquitous in shale, granite and coal - or in the older ceramic tiles which were once used as a glaze (fired unrefined "yellow cake") which as Knuke mentioned, was prized for its color and was fairly common in ceramics before being removed from the marker (but not all kitchens). Surface shale is also ubiquitous in parts of Russia, where the these devices are said to work well. Soils with high levels of shale, granite, or where phosphate fertilizers are used can be radioactive (1-1000 or more ppm of actinides or 40K) but this won't necessarily be picked up by the standard CD GM detectors - plus- in the decay chain, the volatile species (aka "daughters"): isotopes of radon, xenon, polonium etc. have half life of maybe 10^10 times or more shorter than the U or Th. These will show up on any good lab rad-monitor, except the common CD variety which were made for wartime post-catastrophe use. When concentrated, even your civilian-defense monitor will pick it up. The answer to the Knuke-anomaly likely involves the concentration of radon and daughters on the surface of the tiles, possible from both the tile itself and the local soil degassing, and then the decay of these being accelerated in the cavitator. If you do not believe that this can take place, take a tissue and wipe your computer screen and then test with a sensitive meter. You should get a surprisingly high reading, and you can multiply this by the surface area of the tiles in question and the time between tile cleanups, which in Knuke's case, may have been.... well, people who live in glass houses should not hurl housecleaning contumelies, so to speak And all you need to do to accelerated decay is to charge the stuff in a van de Graff. Don't bother to quote me the normal textbook garbage about accelerated decay being impossible, as anyone can demonstrate it so easily that it is now considered by most to have been planned disinformation, and a relic of the cold war era. Another related test which can be used to pinpoint the elemental source of radioactivity can be found online - as well as the important decay-curve files. The test involves measuring the rate against the background, and then logging over time with datalogging software. The concentration of radon daughters on computer screens is caused by electrostatic attraction, and wiping the screen will concentrate this even more so that you can get several hundred CPM, and with the time-decay-curve you can find what isotopes are involved due to the short half-life, and you have almost proof-positive the radon source. There used to be tables for this process and instructions on the "Aware" site: http://www.aw-el.com/ This is not an expensive meter, folks, and every garage experimenter should have this or better. My old one is a slightly better French Oritech model but it is small (smaller than a 'mouse'), inexpensive, accurate and reliable, and if you have an unused laptop, then you have data-logging built-in and can save about $10,000 over new lab equipment- which might have some added bells-and-whistles, but negative economic value. With the "legal" sources of radiation, which means thoriated, you should get readings of around 300-600 uR/hr for welding rods whereas the background rate is typically 10 uR/hr. A "hot" [i.e. not recently cleaned, computer screen may have up to 100 uR/hr or 10 times background, so your grandmother was correct that watching TV too close-up will make you go blind] I suspect that the sum total of Knuke's tiles was in the thousands and then the rate accelerated by cavitation, so he got a dose that may cause long term problems, hopefully not. As radon decays, it becomes charged by its own alpha emission. The charged atom will attach to small airborne particles called Aiken particles. The particle then assumes the charge of the radon daughter, usually negative, as it already shed an alpha. Aiken particles become attached to many dielectrics, and especially those with an induced positive surface charge (cause by alphas migrating to the surface of the tiles. Your cat is probably purring contentedly because of this, and with a lifetime of less than 20 years, no problemo, as it is a slow-developing cancer... Radon is found in many unsuspecting locations, especially basements in "coal country," and in natural gas...and especially in the nation's Capitol in Washington D.C. (because of all the beautiful pink granite). A quantum of slow poetic justice for those bagmen, thanks to all that hard-rock, I'd say. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 18:58:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J1vVvx011469; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:57:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J1tpqx009848; Wed, 18 May 2005 18:55:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:55:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <94eb6041-42d7-4b38-abe5-5bbeb75a57c0> Message-ID: <023b01c55c15$d9ba6ff0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050518155559.EKLB11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050518141548.03e60eb0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:42:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Strictly > from an aesthetic point of view, I would prefer to see a thousand nuclear > power plants rather than a million wind turbines. But the wind turbines > would probably be cheaper and safer, and less polluting when you take into > account pollution from uranium mining and processing. Jed a NIMBY? A synchophant with Walter Cronkite, who did not want his view of the ocean horizon spoiled with an off shore wind farm? Is the end near? :-) A mere million wind turbines will become invisible. When I first moved to south Jersey from Iowa I was aware of the pervasive untility poles and wires along streets and highways; now I hardly notice them. As for cell phone towers, the ploes aren't that bad. I'm amused by one along a section of the PA turnpike that is pretending to be a tree but looks like an oversized bottle brush. As much as I'm an advocate for BLP, if the available wind energy is that great, it is as worth going after as building hydroelectric dams which wipe out wild life and homesteads. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 19:21:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J2Kpvx025065; Wed, 18 May 2005 19:20:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J2KnYc025044; Wed, 18 May 2005 19:20:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:20:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <025001c55c19$5917b1b0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <41dob0$s2rb5j mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:02:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <1d0xqD.A.LHG.Ag_iCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think it remarkable how this discussion spun out of control by misunderstanding the original post. And this is a group that is supposed to be analysing new science in a meaningful way. The original post was about mapping the wind at various parts of the globe and estimating the energy contecnt of that airflow, noting that extraction of a few percent of it would satisfy man's needs. Not bad, something well worth noting. This is a non-trivial datum. There has been a separate discussion about wind towers, very high structures intended to generate forceful updrafts at almost any location. This has little to do with the wind energy map, which indicates places to put windmill farms, a wholly different technology. It was millions of windmills, not millions of wind towers. As for distance from population centers, so are hydroelectric dams whose power is distributed for hundreds of miles. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 23:01:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J613sw026245; Wed, 18 May 2005 23:01:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J60xBN026183; Wed, 18 May 2005 23:00:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:00:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050519060054.0096ad98 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:00:54 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Resent-Message-ID: <9X3FfC.A.-YG.buCjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:02 pm 18/05/2005 -0400, you wrote: > I think it remarkable how this discussion > spun out of control by misunderstanding the > original post. And this is a group that is > supposed to be analysing new science in a > meaningful way. "Spun out of control"? What a cheek! We've not spun out of control at all but merely indulged in some lateral thinking a la de Bono. 8-) =========================================== http://www.edwdebono.com/debono/lateral.htm ------------------------------------------- 1. "You cannot dig a hole in a different place by digging the same hole deeper" This means that trying harder in the same direction may not be as useful as changing direction. Effort in the same direction (approach) will not necessarily succeed. 2. "Lateral Thinking is for changing concepts and perceptions" With logic you start out with certain ingredients just as in playing chess you start out with given pieces. But what are those pieces? In most real life situations the pieces are not given, we just assume they are there. We assume certain perceptions, certain concepts and certain boundaries. Lateral thinking is concerned not with playing with the existing pieces but with seeking to change those very pieces. Lateral thinking is concerned with the perception part of thinking. This is where we organise the external world into the pieces we can then 'process'. =========================================== Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 18 23:59:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4J6x5sw017009; Wed, 18 May 2005 23:59:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4J6x3fD016993; Wed, 18 May 2005 23:59:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:59:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:58:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Nanotube water Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: When we had the thread about cohering the ZPE by super cold water, it occurred to me that freezing, and bursting would be a problem with super cold water. This appears to get around that problem. http://www.physorg.com/news4113.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 05:17:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JCHFPl027509; Thu, 19 May 2005 05:17:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JCHCvk027479; Thu, 19 May 2005 05:17:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 05:17:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 8:17:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050519121704.BLAR23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Mike Carrell" > As much as I'm an advocate for BLP, if the available wind energy is that > great, it is as worth going after as building hydroelectric dams which wipe > out wild life and homesteads. Yes, but hydroelectric facilities have the advantage of lengthening the day by elevating the water mass. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 06:58:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JDwAPl014934; Thu, 19 May 2005 06:58:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JDw8RC014911; Thu, 19 May 2005 06:58:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 06:58:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c55c7a$c4cfded0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050519121704.BLAR23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 06:58:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If it is not too "cheeky," can we switch the aesthetic issues of eco-power from sun-to-wind... ? This Stanford study is very exciting... as in.. exciting enough that it engendered for me an incredible Technicolor, vivid-dream, so real that it was a real drag (drogue) to awaken this morning. Firstly, the study indicates that the many of the best sites, by far (considering all the factors), are in the ocean just offshore, especially off the Pacific west coast of the USA, which it seems has more reliable winds than the North Sea. I had a vision (dream) of a beautiful "sailing ship" implementation for wind energy... I believe these ships can be aesthetically pleasing enough to be positioned all up and down the Pacific coastline, out about 10 km. but still barely visible because of their size. These sleek vessels could be more efficient and cost effective than fixed offshore windmills, will not need to be firmly anchored, which is basically impossible on the Pacific, due to the depth... and may observers might even imagine them to be beautiful, after getting accustomed to the novelty. They were certainly exquisite in my vision. I would like to reduce this vision to a visual image eventually, but lacking that at the moment, here is the best verbalization I can muster. Imagine a ocean-going catamaran large enough to handle rough seas. Lets say the aerodynamic twin hulls are each 200 meter-long slivers. They can be constructed of steel-clad ferrocement. Atop the hulls, and parallel to the ocean but 20 meters above the surface is a strong, open circular track, 150 meters in diameter. Riding on this track is your steerable, super-size-it, 70-story high wind-ladder. >From a distance, the rotating wind ladder looks like a Ferris-wheel on a beam reach but with the wheel-edge, not the axis hub, pointing into the wind. It is extremely lightweight construction, so that the most visible thing one sees are the 12 wings which are positioned around the circumference. The wings mount between the two open-disks of the Ferris wheel, providing both lift and compression on one revolution. But the disks themselves are almost unseen from afar, as they are mostly Kevlar cable with some grided tubing going up to both-ends of the 12 wings, which span between the two open disks and two hulls, and are tiltable at the 90-degree joint with the wheel. These ladder-wings individually are not unlike airplane wings, and each has 2 or more large spinning tractor propellers (mounted on trailing edge) driving generators, which in addition to the torque on the wheel itself, caused by the lift of the wings, supply the power. The wings are tiltable, just like the wind-ladder to present the proper angle of attack, and are constantly changing each revolution, for either normal lift on the upside, or tilting-down for compressive force on the downside. Robotic servo motors can take care of that constantly changing alignment-angle chore. As mentioned, the ship itself does not need to be anchored at all, but can be held relatively stationary, in a controlled-drift mode, by large hybrid drogues... but here is the interesting thing. The sea-drogues themselves can have propellers in the vertex of each open cone to supply power as they are moving in a controlled drag/drift. They can do this for maybe 22 out of 24 hours of a day, with perhaps a 2 hour daily period (preferably low wind time) when the drogues are raised out of the water, and the ship then powers back to its original starting point. There is no "net movement" over time but perhaps a 40 mile (shuttle)movement per day. Obviously with this arrangement, there is no undersea cable back to shore to carry electrical power... so what gives? This is another grand feature (maybe) of the completed concept, as the energy product of these sailing factories is not electrical current at all, but instead is **liquid air** (enriched in O2). Whenever there is adequate wind, day or night, the generated power is used onboard to compress air and cool it in many stages till liquidified ... but when done in many stages using the ocean heat sink and with heat-pump efficiency, then we have a proven COP of about 4, just like the Linde method. The liquid air is stored in the hulls until a dedicated tender arrives to unload the "fuel" product and ferry it to shore. One tender could service perhaps a dozen production vessels spread over 100 miles of open sea, but not far offshore and lightly crewed. Once ashore, the liquid air can be expanded through turbines in a dedicated power-plant, and especially done so during peak electrical demand periods, where the "value added" of the storable fuel is greatest. Since this diurnal demand cycle is also the hours between 10 AM and 6PM, when the sun is strong, the power plant can benefit from solar heat in the expansion equation, collected with mirrors, to boost the expansion efficiency of the liquid air... and/or, being enriched in O2, even a tiny amount of methane will push the expansion ratio way over the 100% "effective" Carnot level. Consequently one has accomplished three desirable goals 1) Ecologically sound wind energy 2) Stored energy which can be used at peak demand 3) Aesthetics ...and possible the best of all, which is not easy to ascertain now, but looking good, and that is ROI... Which is return-on-investment, Roy. Jones Le Roi d'lover n'est pas Mort, Vive Le Roi! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 07:10:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JEALPl022363; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:10:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JEAIgh022339; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:10:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:10:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519093832.03e60cf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:09:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <025001c55c19$5917b1b0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <41dob0$s2rb5j mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> <025001c55c19$5917b1b0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >It was millions of windmills, not millions of wind towers. That's true. A large wind turbine produces 1 or 2 MW nameplate, 0.3 to 0.6 MW actual. The wind tower being planned in Australia will produce 200 MW nameplate, and I suppose about the same actual. So it would take ~300 times more wind turbines than towers to produce an equivalent amount of energy. And 4 or 5 towers will produce as much power as one average U.S. nuclear plant. As I pointed out yesterday, it would take 2,500 towers to supply the US, or millions of wind turbines. The big difference is land area. The wind power in takes up 10,000 ha, whereas 300 wind turbines take up for the land space, because the base of the tower is small. A nuclear plant takes up very little land area: 100 to 500 ha in the U.S. The average nuclear plant is about 980 MW I think, and in 1999 the capacity factor was 88.5%, which is lower than I expected. In other words "actual" size is around 870 MW. >As for distance from population centers, so are hydroelectric dams whose >power is distributed for hundreds of miles. Major sources of hydroelectric power are much closer to heavily populated areas than major sources of wind. This is because large hydroelectric power dams are built on large rivers, and cities have always been built on large rivers. Typically, dams are built where there is a steep drop in the river, which was the end of the navigable water. Early 19th century settlements tended to be no more than 50 to 100 km below these steep drops, and by the latter part of the century railroad construction meant that large cities could be -- and were -- built nearby places like Niagara Falls. Areas with a great deal of wind, on the other hand, tend to be isolated because they are unpleasant to live in, with unproductive land. They are still the least populated areas of the United States, especially North and South Dakota. In other words, it just happens that areas with falling water often attracts population and large cities, whereas concentrated high winds on land tend to drive people away. Offshore wind is a different story. Coastal cities have traditionally been built close to where trade winds are steady and strong, because up until 1860 all of our oceanic trade was powered by wind. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 07:14:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JEEQPl024986; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:14:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JEEOLl024957; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:14:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:14:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101143.03e79ba0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:14:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers - correction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "That's true. A large wind turbine produces 1 or 2 MW nameplate, 0.3 to 0.6 MW actual. The wind tower being planned in Australia . . ." SHOULD BE: "The solar tower being planned in Australia . . ." Elsewhere: "The big difference is land area. The wind power in takes up 10,000 ha . . ." Even worse! That is a voice input error. I said "wind tower," it came out "wind power," and I meant to say "solar tower." Got that? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 07:27:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JEQxPl031955; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:26:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JEQvcb031932; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:26:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:26:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:26:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050519142650.DYZA23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > I had a vision (dream) of a beautiful "sailing ship" > implementation for wind energy... You must stop eating the habaneros after 8 pm! I thin' you have a brilliant idea 'cept for the transport of the Liquair. Many oil wells burn off their methane because of the cost of transport. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 07:50:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JEoFPl012669; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:50:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JEoBI5012625; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:50:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:50:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101858.03e60840 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:42:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <41dmd0$rr7g95 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41dmd0$rr7g95 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2L0lF.A.JFD.heKjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Personally, I also think it is deplorable that there are parents who are >oblivious to raising children that never have the chance to see the >miracle of a firefly. Truly tragic. > >But wait a minute, Jed. There is an absurd aspect to what you're saying! >Let me put it differently: That's just plain ridiculous! You tell us it's >unhealthy to surround ourselves with an "artificial environment" every >minute of our lives. > >Really???? Forget the moon. Let's stay on Earth. I put it to you that most >of us are ALWAYS in sight of (or at least being influenced by) some >man-made structure every second of the day. How many individuals within >Vortex-l have the privilege of being able to completely extricate >themselves from an "artificial environment" . . . It would appear that in >order to live up to your expectations we would have find a way to walk >away from our computers, the Internet, our cars & transportation. Turn off >the electricity. This is a good example of the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. You have taken a reasonable, conventional, well-understood idea to an unwarranted extreme, to the point where it becomes a "red herring" fallacy -- something completely different from what I (obviously) had in mind. People have worn clothes and eaten cooked food for hundreds of thousands of years. There is no going back on that, and no survival without such things. Yet at the same time most people have lived reasonably close to nature, and our children have been exposed to things like clean running water in streams, trees, places to run and play during the summer, dark nights, clean air, fireflies and other benign wildlife. I think this is the most healthy way for most people to live. It is much better than living cheek-by-jowl with pachinko parlors, highways, concrete, and spending all day shut indoors playing video games. That is what I am trying to say. I doubt anyone here seriously disagrees. As I said, if the solar towers produced 5,000 MW, instead of 200 MW, and we could limit the number of towers to maybe 5 or 10 in populous state, that would be reasonable. (Perhaps they could be made this large; I would not know.) That would not dominate the landscape everywhere. They would be no more disruptive than airports and large aircraft cruising overhead. But if every single view, in every direction becomes cluttered up with wind turbines, solar towers, power lines, highways, or fast food joints that would be extreme visual pollution. It would be a tragic loss. Things like this matter more than people realize. Because we are so used to seeing this kind of clutter everywhere, we have forgotten how wonderful the world used to look. The painter Raphael Soyer grew up painting cityscapes in New York City and the surrounding areas -- a rich and vibrant landscape. After the 1950s, he saw that on every single street, lane and byway, and every town and village on Long Island, was cluttered with automobiles, either parked or stuck in traffic jams. Streets which had been filled with pedestrians and marketplaces on Saturday were surrendered to empty, dead, impassible lumps of steel. It sucked the life out of our communities, and destroyed our landscapes. He said you cannot paint outdoors anymore; the landscapes have all been obliterated. People nowadays never saw the landscape any other way so they have no idea what we have lost, and no notion that things might be different, or better. Cars, visual pollution, noise and filth not only destroy people's health, they gradually crush people's imaginations, too. Jared Diamond described this kind of gradual withering away in the book "Collapse." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 07:56:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JEu1Pl016179; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:56:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JEtsUd016096; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:55:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:55:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004b01c55c82$d63e5400$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050519142650.DYZA23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:55:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > You must stop eating the habaneros after 8 pm! Nope. Just breaking in my new expresso machine. > I thin' you have a brilliant idea 'cept for the transport of the > Liquair. Many oil wells burn off their methane because of the > cost of transport. Well let me counter the last part with this. Oil wells did perpetrate this dastardly act in the past, especially if there wasn't much methane in the well. There is usually always some methane in oil, but often it comes off first, and after a while it is all gone, so it doesn't pay to pipe it way. Even at the refinery, they used to burn it away, but at least here in CA they have had laws on the books for years now to make that illegal. It must be pumped into the mains or used on-site for heat. But the main reason that I still think that C.A. is feasible in CA (cryo-air in cal-e-furnia, as the Gubernator likes to say) and maybe even highly advantageous anywhere, is that once your are set up do it on a large scale, even with a dedicated Dewar equipped tender, then all of those transport costs are amortized over lots of tonnage, and they are not going to be that high when they are spread out over quite a few offshore wind-factories... plus the whole system operates 24/7. Hey, Vo... Do we have a cost-accountant out there?... doubtful. Anyway, I would like to see a fairly well-considered cost study of the ROI of such a proposal. Jones BTW, Terry, do you still have the French-speaking associate? How did she like my "le mot juste" and clever cross-cultural pun (or did I get it wrong in translation?) For those who do not appreciate cross-cultural punage, "lover" in French means wind, so my inspiration for this petit mot juste, is both a famous quote from le Miz, shall we say, not to mention the reigning king-of-wind on vortex, i.e. the famous "lover"-boy hisself ... or is that lover-lover, who is sure to chime-in on this idea (hopefully on the positive side) sooner or later. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 07:59:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JExMPl018578; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:59:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JExGJ4018531; Thu, 19 May 2005 07:59:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:59:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41docm$rrqtqr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,121,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="935163739:sNHT14061968" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:59:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, > From: "Mike Carrell" ... > I think it remarkable how this discussion spun out of > control by misunderstanding the original post. And this > is a group that is supposed to be analysing new science > in a meaningful way. > > The original post was about mapping the wind at various > parts of the globe and estimating the energy contecnt of > that airflow, noting that extraction of a few percent of > it would satisfy man's needs. Not bad, something well > worth noting. This is a non-trivial datum. > > There has been a separate discussion about wind towers, > very high structures intended to generate forceful > updrafts at almost any location. This has little to do > with the wind energy map, which indicates places to put > windmill farms, a wholly different technology. > > It was millions of windmills, not millions of wind towers. > > As for distance from population centers, so are > hydroelectric dams whose power is distributed for > hundreds of miles. > > Mike Carrell > I respectfully disagree that this particular discussion thread has "spun out of control." There was no misunderstanding on my part. I deliberately and consciously started a brand new discussion thread specifically in order to distinguish the issue I wanted to bring up in Vortex from previous ones pertaining to global wind charts and windmills. Granted the original discussions may have focused on mapping global wind flow patterns and how best to harness that natural energy with windmills. However, as an artist I began to perceive a CULTURAL component worth discussing within Vortex. I specifically wanted to discuss the cultural, political and aesthetic ramifications of what the advantages (or disadvantages as Jed has suggested) in the feasibility of instigating a national goal (equivalent to the Apollo Program) of building a sufficient number of SOLAR TOWERS (not windmills!) with the ultimate goal of making our nation energy independent. Politically speaking, what might the pursuit of such a national goal do for our nation, and perhaps the entire planet on the longer run. Again I reiterate: This particular thread has more to with cultural, political & aesthetic considerations as it has to do whether the technology exists in the first place. Considering the latter I suspect the technology DOES exist assuming the nation was sufficiently motivated in the collective sense to pursue it on a national scale with the same fervor we showed for the Apollo Moon project. I suspect the spin-off technology alone that might result as we discover how to build stronger taller and stronger tower structures and wind turbines could generate positive ramifications in other sectors of our society, just as the space program did. I specifically chose SOLAR TOWERS (not windmills) because they would be HUGE in-your-face structures. Because they are TOWERS, their structural shape tend to represent strong psychic archetypes to different people and societies depending on cultural backgrounds. If these structures were built by the thousands they would obviously become some of the most pervasive monuments ever built in the 21st century - monuments of what our technology is capable of erecting. Would that be a good or bad thing? Jed has argued that their pervasiveness (if built by the thousands) would be aesthetically detrimental to the over-all health of societies being forced to live next to them. I, on the other hand, have continued to argue that I'm not as convinced as Jed appears to be. Never the less, I'm still open to suggestions! ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 08:19:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JFJQPl003692; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:19:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JFJNwV003649; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:19:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:19:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519110418.03e74e30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:19:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <41docm$rrqtqr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41docm$rrqtqr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >I specifically chose SOLAR TOWERS (not windmills) because they would be >HUGE in-your-face structures. Because they are TOWERS, their structural >shape tend to represent strong psychic archetypes to different people and >societies depending on cultural backgrounds. Oh come now. You mean they would be phallic symbols, like the Washington Monument. Believe me, that represents the same psychic archetype to people in every society. It is unmistakable. > If these structures were built by the thousands they would obviously > become some of the most pervasive monuments ever built in the 21st > century - monuments of what our technology is capable of erecting. Great. Just like our interstate highway system is the great monument to the 20th century. It has only cost as much as a good-sized war and killed a few million people. Of course a lot of people do think highways are beautiful, because they have never seen anything else and they have no idea what beauty is. For that matter, people think television is amusing and fast food tastes good. And highways work so well too. So efficient. This morning, for example, in Atlanta a single accident caused 11 mile backup from 7:30 to 10:00, inconveniencing maybe a few hundred thousand people at most. What other transportation system could accomplish that nearly every morning? I think the world has seen quite enough of this kind of large-scale environmental havoc, and grand-scale monumental architectural fetishes. As I wrote in the book (Chapter 21), I hope that the guiding principle of 21st century technology will be: "If anyone hears a machine, it is too loud. If anyone is bothered by one, it is too intrusive." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 08:36:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JFZwPl012962; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:36:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JFZj4Q012814; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:35:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:35:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b624$113k3tp mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,121,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1111101369:sNHT13480132" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:35:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > Oh come now. You mean they would be phallic symbols, > like the Washington Monument. Believe me, that > represents the same psychic archetype to people > in every society. It is unmistakable. Jed, Do not put words in my mouth. It is you and you alone who has suggested they might represent "phallic symbols". Where is your mind these days? Towers represent a lot more than just "phallic symbols" and you know that. Nuf said on that subject. FWIW: I'm NOT arguing we SHOULD build a thousand solar towers, even though I've obviously taken the side that maybe they might not be such a bad thing considering what the alternatives might be. I'm arguing what the POLITICAL and CULTURAL ramifications might be if we were to pursue this kind of a project on the same scale we pursued the Apollo project. > > If these structures were built by the thousands > > they would obviously become some of the most > > pervasive monuments ever built in the 21st > > century - monuments of what our technology is > > capable of erecting. > > Great. Just like our interstate highway system is > the great monument to the 20th century. It has only cost > as much as a good-sized war and killed a few million people. > Of course a lot of people do think highways are beautiful, > because they have never seen anything else and they have > no idea what beauty is. For that matter, people think > television is amusing and fast food tastes good. > > And highways work so well too. So efficient. This morning, > for example, in Atlanta a single accident caused 11 mile > backup from 7:30 to 10:00, inconveniencing maybe a few > hundred thousand people at most. What other transportation > system could accomplish that nearly every morning? > > I think the world has seen quite enough of this kind of > large-scale environmental havoc, and grand-scale monumental > architectural fetishes. As I wrote in the book (Chapter 21), > I hope that the guiding principle of 21st century technology > will be: > > "If anyone hears a machine, it is too loud. If anyone is > bothered by one, it is too intrusive." > > - Jed Sometimes, Jed, you strike me as a Luddite disguised in sheep clothing. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 08:41:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JFfoPl016677; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:41:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JFfmv4016645; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:41:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:41:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:41:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050519154133.FLEN23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-F-7n.A.3DE.6OLjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > BTW, Terry, do you still have the French-speaking associate? > > How did she like my "le mot juste" and clever cross-cultural pun > (or did I get it wrong in translation?) > > For those who do not appreciate cross-cultural punage, "lover" in > French means wind, so my inspiration for this petit mot juste, is > both a famous quote from le Miz, shall we say, not to mention the > reigning king-of-wind on vortex, i.e. the famous "lover"-boy > hisself ... or is that lover-lover, who is sure to chime-in on > this idea (hopefully on the positive side) sooner or later. Hmmm, well, we didn't get it. AAMOF we called Prof. Ditmann (her Jewish French husband) and he didn't get it. 'Wind' is 'le vent' in French. 'Lover' means 'to coil'. Lover le vent? To coil the wind? A vortex? So maybe you are using a scientific term which the good professor is unfamiliar. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 08:56:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JFtmPl024165; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:55:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JFtjZc024127; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:55:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:55:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519113817.03e66da0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:55:02 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wind Mapped In-Reply-To: <023b01c55c15$d9ba6ff0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050518155559.EKLB11146.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050518141548.03e60eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <023b01c55c15$d9ba6ff0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >A mere million wind turbines will become invisible. When I first moved >to south Jersey from Iowa I was aware of the pervasive untility poles and >wires along streets and highways; now I hardly notice them. First, wind turbines are MUCH taller than utility poles, and MUCH more visible. They are often built on the top of high hills, or in passes between hills. In France I saw some that were visible at least 20 km away, for 5 or 10 minutes on the high speed train. Second the fact that you become inured to such things is bad, not good. It means you have gradually forgotten how the world should look, and what real beauty is. As I said, people who eat nothing but junk food come to think it tastes good. Many Americans, agrees with the Texas Department of Agriculture that french fries should be classified as fresh vegetables. When 19th century slum children were taken out of the cities and given a few weeks in the countryside, some of them refused to eat anything but pickles, boiled bread and salted meat, because they had never tasted anything else. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 09:31:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JGU9Px011451; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:30:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JGAZZl001187; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:10:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:10:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007601c55c8d$3faddc30$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050519154133.FLEN23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:10:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Hmmm, well, we didn't get it. AAMOF we called Prof. Ditmann > (her Jewish French husband) and he didn't get it. 'Wind' is 'le > vent' in French. 'Lover' means 'to coil'. Lover le vent? To > coil the wind? A vortex? So maybe you are using a scientific > term which the good professor is unfamiliar. Ha, sacre bleu.. the tricolored laugh is on me, mon ami...or is that "bon ami" and better clean than wha'd'I mean... ? ....looks like I am a victim of my own exuberance, and got emmerded, tout suite, in an all-English problem, the infamous homonym. I knew "vent" was the common noun but that didn't pun-out... ...so, like an imbecile parfait, I went to the online F-E dictionary where "wind" with a long-eye, so to speak, can be easily confused (by the short-sighted) with "wind" with a short-eye. Guess I will have to rest my F-E punage laurels on "le loi d'emmerdement maximum"... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 09:31:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JGU9Q1011451; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:30:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JG6E9X030833; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:06:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:06:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c55c8c$950f4570$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Stimulating the imagination Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:04:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C55C62.93EADBC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <4pfE2.A.rhH.1lLjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C55C62.93EADBC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01C55C62.93EADBC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C55C62.93EADBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSome design problems have no solution. Some have solutions = requiring small or severe compromise. Some have beautiful simplistic = solutions. Spending countless hours daily in the design and development = of a reactor unit that holds hope for pretreating seawater for reverse = osmosis (RO), I often step outside the box and look inside through = imaginary windows to see if the components have a hope of fitting and = examine my premise. The VortexL group affords me quality stimuli. In turn, I am likewise = obligated to the group .... so..here goes.. CF may only be the " wake" left of something during passing, or passed = by. By wake, I mean evidence and reaction. By reaction, I mean an attempt by nature to cover or recover. When mother nature is unveiled, she attempts to cover her nakedness. We = see this action take place when a field is plowed. Weeds attempt to cover the naked soil. This may be a clue. An attempt to = cover or recover regardless of the worth of the covering( weeds). A hasty improvision if you will. As an old poker playing friend once observed.. this ain't no game for a = blind man !! Surely the Vortex group is no place for the timid < grin> Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C55C62.93EADBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Some design problems have no solution. Some have solutions=20 requiring small or severe compromise. Some have beautiful = simplistic=20 solutions. Spending countless hours daily in the design and=20 development of a reactor unit that holds hope for pretreating seawater = for=20 reverse osmosis (RO), I often step outside the box and look  inside = through=20 imaginary windows to see if the components have a hope of fitting and = examine my=20 premise.
 
The VortexL group affords me quality stimuli. In turn, I am = likewise=20 obligated to the group .... so..here goes..
 
CF may only be the " wake" left of something during passing, or = passed by.=20 By wake, I mean evidence and reaction.
By reaction, I mean an attempt by nature to cover or recover.
 
When mother nature is unveiled, she attempts to cover her = nakedness. We see=20 this action take place when a field is plowed.
Weeds attempt to cover the naked soil. This may be a clue. An = attempt to=20 cover or recover regardless of the worth of the covering( weeds).
 
A hasty improvision if you will.
 
As an old poker playing friend once observed.. this ain't no game = for a=20 blind man !!
 
Surely the Vortex group is no place for the timid  < = grin>
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C55C62.93EADBC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C55C62.93EADBC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002501c55c8c$7ca56c80$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C55C62.93EADBC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 09:46:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JGkPPl022085; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:46:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JGhA85020059; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:43:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:43:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43ar6j$rmk5pu mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,121,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="929699646:sNHT634957098" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Mallove obituary Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:42:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > [it has been one year since Gene was murdered. Here > is an obituary I wrote for Infinite Energy magazine. > The family objected to it, so naturally I > acquiesced and withdrew it from publication. After > all this time I suppose > there is no harm to uploading it here. - Jed] > Jed, In the midst of the recent frey I forgot to mention that I also appreciated reading your obit on Eugene. I never met Mr. Mallove. Your comments helped me acquire a better understanding of the complex and often conflicting underpinnings driving this individual. It's what made him human to the rest of us. What a tragic loss. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 09:54:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JGrkPl026504; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:53:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JGrXmX026299; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:53:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:53:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050519165316.00976ba8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:53:16 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:58 am 19/05/2005 -0700, Beene wrote: >This is another grand feature (maybe) of the completed concept, as >the energy product of these sailing factories is not electrical >current at all, but instead is **liquid air** (enriched in O2). >Whenever there is adequate wind, day or night, the generated power >is used onboard to compress air and cool it in many stages till >liquidified ... but when done in many stages using the ocean heat >sink and with heat-pump efficiency, then we have a proven COP of >about 4, just like the Linde method. The liquid air is stored in >the hulls until a dedicated tender arrives to unload the "fuel" >product and ferry it to shore. One tender could service perhaps a >dozen production vessels spread over 100 miles of open sea, but >not far offshore and lightly crewed. > >Once ashore, the liquid air can be expanded through turbines in a >dedicated power-plant, and especially done so during peak >electrical demand periods, where the "value added" of the storable >fuel is greatest. Since this diurnal demand cycle is also the >hours between 10 AM and 6PM, when the sun is strong, the power >plant can benefit from solar heat in the expansion equation, >collected with mirrors, to boost the expansion efficiency of the >liquid air... and/or, being enriched in O2, even a tiny amount of >methane will push the expansion ratio way over the 100% >"effective" Carnot level. > >Consequently one has accomplished three desirable goals >1) Ecologically sound wind energy >2) Stored energy which can be used at peak demand >3) Aesthetics > >...and possible the best of all, which is not easy to ascertain >now, but looking good, and that is ROI... > >Which is return-on-investment, Roy. > >Jones > >Le Roi d'lover n'est pas Mort, Vive Le Roi! Very ingenious Jones. Worthy of de Bono. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 09:54:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JGrpPl026543; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:53:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JGrT79026269; Thu, 19 May 2005 09:53:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:53:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:55:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519110418.03e74e30 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, time for some Shelley, as my beat friend Bob Dombrowski likes to opine, "Ozymandias, you've done better than most..." K. Ozymandias ---------- I met a traveler from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand, Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read, Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed, And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away. ---------- -Percy Bysshe Shelley- -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:19 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications orionworks charter.net wrote: >I specifically chose SOLAR TOWERS (not windmills) because they would be >HUGE in-your-face structures. Because they are TOWERS, their structural >shape tend to represent strong psychic archetypes to different people and >societies depending on cultural backgrounds. Oh come now. You mean they would be phallic symbols, like the Washington Monument. Believe me, that represents the same psychic archetype to people in every society. It is unmistakable. > If these structures were built by the thousands they would obviously > become some of the most pervasive monuments ever built in the 21st > century - monuments of what our technology is capable of erecting. Great. Just like our interstate highway system is the great monument to the 20th century. It has only cost as much as a good-sized war and killed a few million people. Of course a lot of people do think highways are beautiful, because they have never seen anything else and they have no idea what beauty is. For that matter, people think television is amusing and fast food tastes good. And highways work so well too. So efficient. This morning, for example, in Atlanta a single accident caused 11 mile backup from 7:30 to 10:00, inconveniencing maybe a few hundred thousand people at most. What other transportation system could accomplish that nearly every morning? I think the world has seen quite enough of this kind of large-scale environmental havoc, and grand-scale monumental architectural fetishes. As I wrote in the book (Chapter 21), I hope that the guiding principle of 21st century technology will be: "If anyone hears a machine, it is too loud. If anyone is bothered by one, it is too intrusive." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 10:06:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JH64Pl001757; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:06:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JH5qgG001618; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:05:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:05:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519122130.03e6cc70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:05:38 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <41b624$113k3tp mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41b624$113k3tp mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >FWIW: I'm NOT arguing we SHOULD build a thousand solar towers, even though >I've obviously taken the side that maybe they might not be such a bad >thing considering what the alternatives might be. If we do not build thousands, they will contribute only a tiny fraction of our overall energy, and there is no point to developing them at all. It will cost billions to develop them, so we should spend that money on some other source of energy that can be scaled up to provide at least 10% or 20% of our total needs. Building a dozen towers worldwide would contribute nothing more than a few tourist attractions. Also, have you worked out how much land area it would take? 10,000 ha for a 200 MW unit is a *lot*. Unless you happen to be in a desert, we have better uses for 10,000 ha (25,000 acres). I do not know whether the land area scales up with the size of the tower, but if it does, building 2,500 of these things would take up 25 million ha. That's 2.7% of our land area. In the U.S. all pavement in roads, highways and parking lots takes up 16 million ha, which is bad enough. You propose to more than double that! The land devoted to the tower is covered over with a "huge glass roof" or skirt and cannot be used for anything else, as far as I can tell. See: http://earth-policy.org/Alerts/Alert12.htm This looks more like an environmental nightmare than benign renewable energy. There are other sources of energy such as biomass which can only contribute a tiny fraction of our energy needs, yet which should be developed. We have a great deal of biomass pollution that we need to treat anyway, so we might as well generate energy from it and kill two birds with one stone. Miscellaneous energy sources such as cow manure, peanut shells, and the leftovers from olive oil presses will never produce even 1% of our energy, but we might as well use them because we have to dispose of them somehow. > I'm arguing what the POLITICAL and CULTURAL ramifications might be if we > were to pursue this kind of a project on the same scale we pursued the > Apollo project. Beware of Apollo projects. Look what Apollo degenerated into: the Space Shuttle and the International Space Station. They are abominable, obsolete white elephants. They stand in the way of real progress in space exploration. > > "If anyone hears a machine, it is too loud. If anyone is > > bothered by one, it is too intrusive." > > > >Sometimes, Jed, you strike me as a Luddite disguised in sheep clothing. Darn right I am a Luddite, and proud of it. The other thing I said in Chapter 21 is: ". . . machines must serve humanity; it should never be other way around." Read this: "Considerable injury has been done to the proprietors of the improved frames. These machines were to them an advantage, inasmuch as they superseded the necessity of employing a number of workmen, who were left in consequence to starve. By the adoption of one species of frame in particular, one man performed the work of many, and the superfluous labourers were thrown out of employment. . . . The rejected workmen, in the blindness of their ignorance, instead of rejoicing at these improvements in arts so beneficial to mankind, conceived themselves to be sacrificed to improvements in mechanism. In the foolishness of their hearts they imagined that the maintenance and well-doing of the industrious poor were objects of greater consequence than the enrichment of a few individuals by an improvement, in the implements of trade, which threw the workmen out of employment, and rendered the labourer unworthy of his hire." - George Gordon, Lord Byron, describes the Luddites during the Debate on the Frame-work Bill in the House of Lords, February 27, 1812 We should not implement new technology that hurts people or throws them out of work *unless* we also take steps to help those people and give them new livelihoods. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 10:08:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JH7dPl002705; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:07:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JH7YUx002650; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:07:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:07:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050519170722.009727a0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:07:22 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:59 am 19/05/2005 -0400, Steven wrote: > I specifically chose SOLAR TOWERS (not windmills) > because they would be HUGE in-your-face structures. > Because they are TOWERS, their structural shape > tend to represent strong psychic archetypes to > different people ............ Like "is that a gun in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?" ;-) F. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 10:09:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JH8oPl003339; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:08:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JH8lAa003296; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:08:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:08:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: CC: Subject: Re: Wind Mapped Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:08:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050519170822.HBEI23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > ....looks like I am a victim of my own exuberance, and got > emmerded, tout suite, in an all-English problem, the infamous > homonym. Ah, confession is good for the soul. Lover le vent, to wind the wind. It's enough to make a homonymphobe of any of us . . . or an antisemantic. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 10:13:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JHChPl006309; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:12:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JHCYPQ006231; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:12:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:12:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428CC8FB.3080500 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:12:27 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications References: <41dmd0$rr7g95 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101858.03e60840@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101858.03e60840 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I totally agree with Jed, so let me tell you some of my experiences while growing up, which many of you who are old enough will have experienced as well. Where I lived in Pennsylvania 60 years ago, the towns, which were small and separated from each other, were surrounded by forests and still had many wild acres remaining between the homes. I and my friends were able to use these wild areas to test bombs, set off rockets and generally have fun doing things that would put us in jail these days. As a result, my enthusiasm for science blossomed. Now the towns are connected by ugly strip malls, the woods have become dense subdivisions and any loud noise brings the police. It is no wonder that young people are uninterested in science and turn to activities that challenge the kind of society they have been given. The part of the world where I grew up has now degenerated so much that I feel sick and sad whenever I visit. The country is gradually being destroyed by people who think that making a buck is the only important activity and the only criteria for judging the environment in which we live. Even in Santa Fe, where I live now, a constant battle must be fought between people who value the unique beauty of the town and surroundings, and those who want to build Wal-Marts. Unfortunately the Wal-Marts are winning because appreciation of beauty is a recessive gene in the US population. Even when lovers of beauty self-select and migrate to places like Santa Fe, they still must fight to retain that which makes the environment worthwhile, because one Wal-Mart or a similar building can cause a blight that encourages more destruction. Each blight is justified by what seems like a good reason at the time. Eventually the blights accumulate and the environment dies, very much like a person dying of cancer with a little loss of life at a time. No one notices until its too late. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > orionworks charter.net wrote: > >> Personally, I also think it is deplorable that there are parents who >> are oblivious to raising children that never have the chance to see >> the miracle of a firefly. Truly tragic. >> >> But wait a minute, Jed. There is an absurd aspect to what you're >> saying! Let me put it differently: That's just plain ridiculous! You >> tell us it's unhealthy to surround ourselves with an "artificial >> environment" every minute of our lives. >> >> Really???? Forget the moon. Let's stay on Earth. I put it to you that >> most of us are ALWAYS in sight of (or at least being influenced by) >> some man-made structure every second of the day. How many individuals >> within Vortex-l have the privilege of being able to completely >> extricate themselves from an "artificial environment" . . . It would >> appear that in order to live up to your expectations we would have >> find a way to walk away from our computers, the Internet, our cars & >> transportation. Turn off the electricity. > > > This is a good example of the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. You have > taken a reasonable, conventional, well-understood idea to an unwarranted > extreme, to the point where it becomes a "red herring" fallacy -- > something completely different from what I (obviously) had in mind. > People have worn clothes and eaten cooked food for hundreds of thousands > of years. There is no going back on that, and no survival without such > things. Yet at the same time most people have lived reasonably close to > nature, and our children have been exposed to things like clean running > water in streams, trees, places to run and play during the summer, dark > nights, clean air, fireflies and other benign wildlife. I think this is > the most healthy way for most people to live. It is much better than > living cheek-by-jowl with pachinko parlors, highways, concrete, and > spending all day shut indoors playing video games. That is what I am > trying to say. I doubt anyone here seriously disagrees. > > As I said, if the solar towers produced 5,000 MW, instead of 200 MW, and > we could limit the number of towers to maybe 5 or 10 in populous state, > that would be reasonable. (Perhaps they could be made this large; I > would not know.) That would not dominate the landscape everywhere. They > would be no more disruptive than airports and large aircraft cruising > overhead. > > But if every single view, in every direction becomes cluttered up with > wind turbines, solar towers, power lines, highways, or fast food joints > that would be extreme visual pollution. It would be a tragic loss. > Things like this matter more than people realize. Because we are so used > to seeing this kind of clutter everywhere, we have forgotten how > wonderful the world used to look. The painter Raphael Soyer grew up > painting cityscapes in New York City and the surrounding areas -- a rich > and vibrant landscape. After the 1950s, he saw that on every single > street, lane and byway, and every town and village on Long Island, was > cluttered with automobiles, either parked or stuck in traffic jams. > Streets which had been filled with pedestrians and marketplaces on > Saturday were surrendered to empty, dead, impassible lumps of steel. It > sucked the life out of our communities, and destroyed our landscapes. He > said you cannot paint outdoors anymore; the landscapes have all been > obliterated. People nowadays never saw the landscape any other way so > they have no idea what we have lost, and no notion that things might be > different, or better. Cars, visual pollution, noise and filth not only > destroy people's health, they gradually crush people's imaginations, > too. Jared Diamond described this kind of gradual withering away in the > book "Collapse." > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 10:18:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JHIHPl009796; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:18:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JHIDCw009742; Thu, 19 May 2005 10:18:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:18:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003501c55c97$65d06360$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <038901c55c14$ecabf1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: Explantion for some caviation OU Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:22:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: <-DjT5C.A.FYC.SpMjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:48 PM Subject: Explantion for some caviation OU > Thinking about Knuke's recent post, and the anomaly he experienced > with unfortunate long-term health risks, I believe that I have an > answer now and it does not involved neutrons, proliferation risks, > nor the increased possibility of terrorism, as some of us > feared... nor necessarily hydrinos - but instead a prevalent > common household toxic gas- to wit: radon. Although radon is > technically a gas, it is so heavy and active that it sticks like > glue to many surface-charged dielectrics. > > The mechanism is as follows: Radon and other volatile radioactive > species diffuse from the ground due to the natural decay of > uranium and/or thorium which are ubiquitous in shale, granite and > coal - or in the older ceramic tiles which were once used as a > glaze (fired unrefined "yellow cake") which as Knuke mentioned, > was prized for its color and was fairly common in ceramics before > being removed from the marker (but not all kitchens). Surface > shale is also ubiquitous in parts of Russia, where the these > devices are said to work well. > > Soils with high levels of shale, granite, or where phosphate > fertilizers are used can be radioactive (1-1000 or more ppm of > actinides or 40K) but this won't necessarily be picked up by the > standard CD GM detectors - plus- in the decay chain, the volatile > species (aka "daughters"): isotopes of radon, xenon, polonium etc. > have half life of maybe 10^10 times or more shorter than the U or > Th. These will show up on any good lab rad-monitor, except the > common CD variety which were made for wartime post-catastrophe > use. When concentrated, even your civilian-defense monitor will > pick it up. > > The answer to the Knuke-anomaly likely involves the concentration > of radon and daughters on the surface of the tiles, possible from > both the tile itself and the local soil degassing, and then the > decay of these being accelerated in the cavitator. If you do not > believe that this can take place, take a tissue and wipe your > computer screen and then test with a sensitive meter. I tried this with my CDV-700 which gives one click every five to ten seconds as background. After wiping a 21 in monitor and a TV screen with the tissue, I got no change. This seems pecular since I know that there are houses within 12 mi with radon problems and mineable grade of U within 20 mi. I still don't understand how Knuke got such a massive dose of radion in only five sec! Do you know if there was any residual contamination of his turbine parts detectable after the incident? You should > get a surprisingly high reading, and you can multiply this by the > surface area of the tiles in question and the time between tile > cleanups, which in Knuke's case, may have been.... well, people > who live in glass houses should not hurl housecleaning > contumelies, so to speak > > And all you need to do to accelerated decay is to charge the stuff > in a van de Graff. Don't bother to quote me the normal textbook > garbage about accelerated decay being impossible, as anyone can > demonstrate it so easily that it is now considered by most to > have been planned disinformation, and a relic of the cold war era. > > Another related test which can be used to pinpoint the elemental > source of radioactivity can be found online - as well as the > important decay-curve files. The test involves measuring the rate > against the background, and then logging over time with > datalogging software. The concentration of radon daughters on > computer screens is caused by electrostatic attraction, and wiping > the screen will concentrate this even more so that you can get > several hundred CPM, and with the time-decay-curve you can find > what isotopes are involved due to the short half-life, and you > have almost proof-positive the radon source. There used to be > tables for this process and instructions on the "Aware" site: > http://www.aw-el.com/ > This is not an expensive meter, folks, and every garage > experimenter should have this or better. My old one is a slightly > better French Oritech model but it is small (smaller than a > 'mouse'), inexpensive, accurate and reliable, and if you have an > unused laptop, then you have data-logging built-in and can save > about $10,000 over new lab equipment- which might have some added > bells-and-whistles, but negative economic value. > > With the "legal" sources of radiation, which means thoriated, you > should get readings of around 300-600 uR/hr for welding rods > whereas the background rate is typically 10 uR/hr. A "hot" [i.e. > not recently cleaned, computer screen may have up to 100 uR/hr or > 10 times background, so your grandmother was correct that watching > TV too close-up will make you go blind] I suspect that the sum > total of Knuke's tiles was in the thousands and then the rate > accelerated by cavitation, so he got a dose that may cause long > term problems, hopefully not. > > As radon decays, it becomes charged by its own alpha emission. The > charged atom will attach to small airborne particles called Aiken > particles. The particle then assumes the charge of the radon > daughter, usually negative, as it already shed an alpha. Aiken > particles become attached to many dielectrics, and especially > those with an induced positive surface charge (cause by alphas > migrating to the surface of the tiles. Your cat is probably > purring contentedly because of this, and with a lifetime of less > than 20 years, no problemo, as it is a slow-developing cancer... > > Radon is found in many unsuspecting locations, especially > basements in "coal country," and in natural gas...and especially > in the nation's Capitol in Washington D.C. (because of all the > beautiful pink granite). > > A quantum of slow poetic justice for those bagmen, thanks to all > that hard-rock, I'd say. > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 11:01:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JI11Pl004029; Thu, 19 May 2005 11:01:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JI0pHr003906; Thu, 19 May 2005 11:00:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:00:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b301c55c9c$aa2b1190$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <038901c55c14$ecabf1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <003501c55c97$65d06360$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> Subject: Re: Explanation for some cavtiation OU Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:00:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff writes, > I tried this with my CDV-700 which gives one click every five to > ten seconds > as background. After wiping a 21 in monitor and a TV screen > with the > tissue, I got no change. This seems pecular since I know that > there are > houses within 12 mi with radon problems and mineable grade of U > within 20 > mi. First let me aplogize for the higher than normal typos in that post. Two in the subject heading alone. Not surprising that you got now reading at all with the CD-700. This meter only measures Gamma radiation, not the Alpha radiation of radon & daughters. It is also unable to measure Beta and Fast Neutrons. It is basically an ancient post-aploclypse design. To quote from this site about the other most likely problems: http://www.dirtybombdetector.com/cdv.htm 1. Low energy response is questionable. The design for ruggedness results in solid metal detector tubes which makes for a considerable reduction in low energy detection efficiency. 2. There is significant degradation in the detector tubes in a large percentage of these instruments. It's common knowledge that there is significant tailing in the high end rate response for the GM-based instruments. 3. The units are over 40 years old - old technology and aging parts make the device unreliable. CDV-700 instruments also saturate easily but that is not the case here. In short, these were designed to let you know that if you got a decent reading you had about 5 minutes before getting very ill and then dying. > I still don't understand how Knuke got such a massive dose of > radion in only > five sec! It is enigmatic...and IMHO it must get back to accelerated decay... plus as the next best guess, there could be an added contribution from a hydrino interaction which perhaps is higher with radon than one might suspect and also a contribution from ozone, which is chemical not nuclear but it could have contributed. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 11:09:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JI9JPl009115; Thu, 19 May 2005 11:09:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JI9HXk009087; Thu, 19 May 2005 11:09:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:09:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428CD64B.4070006 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:09:15 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications References: <41dmd0$rr7g95 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101858.03e60840@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101858.03e60840 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7xZhvD.A.xNC.NZNjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > orionworks charter.net wrote: > >> Personally, I also think it is deplorable that there are parents who >> are oblivious to raising children that never have the chance to see >> the miracle of a firefly. Truly tragic. > One moment -- there's something more here that deserves a comment. I grew up outside Philadelphia in a built-up suburb. On summer evenings, sometimes we'd sit on the porch and watch waves of fireflies launching themselves from the lawn. As a child I sometimes caught them, and on one occasion I put what must have been dozens of them into a large jar and put it in my bedroom for the night (I didn't have a lot of empathy for bugs in those days). Now I live outside Boston in a built-up suburb. It's just 300 miles by car from where I grew up; less, in a straight line. The climate's similar, the housing stock is similar, the lawns are similar, the population density is similar. The house I live in has a reasonably large untreated lawn -- no pesticides -- and lots of things live in it (beetles, spiders, ants, worms, crickets, to name a few). For the first time in several years, I saw a firefly last year. This is not because I'm never outside in the evening in the summer! I am, fairly often, and I've been watching for them. They're not there. Where have the fireflies gone? What's happened to them? Is this "ten-legged frog effect", or the result of a slight change in the climate, or what? Whatever it is I find it disturbing. >> But wait a minute, Jed. There is an absurd aspect to what you're >> saying! Let me put it differently: That's just plain ridiculous! You >> tell us it's unhealthy to surround ourselves with an "artificial >> environment" every minute of our lives. >> >> Really???? Forget the moon. Let's stay on Earth. I put it to you that >> most of us are ALWAYS in sight of (or at least being influenced by) >> some man-made structure every second of the day. How many individuals >> within Vortex-l have the privilege of being able to completely >> extricate themselves from an "artificial environment" . . . It would >> appear that in order to live up to your expectations we would have >> find a way to walk away from our computers, the Internet, our cars & >> transportation. Turn off the electricity. > > > This is a good example of the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. You > have taken a reasonable, conventional, well-understood idea to an > unwarranted extreme, to the point where it becomes a "red herring" > fallacy -- something completely different from what I (obviously) had > in mind. People have worn clothes and eaten cooked food for hundreds > of thousands of years. There is no going back on that, and no survival > without such things. Yet at the same time most people have lived > reasonably close to nature, and our children have been exposed to > things like clean running water in streams, trees, places to run and > play during the summer, dark nights, clean air, fireflies and other > benign wildlife. I think this is the most healthy way for most people > to live. It is much better than living cheek-by-jowl with pachinko > parlors, highways, concrete, and spending all day shut indoors playing > video games. That is what I am trying to say. I doubt anyone here > seriously disagrees. > > As I said, if the solar towers produced 5,000 MW, instead of 200 MW, > and we could limit the number of towers to maybe 5 or 10 in populous > state, that would be reasonable. (Perhaps they could be made this > large; I would not know.) That would not dominate the landscape > everywhere. They would be no more disruptive than airports and large > aircraft cruising overhead. Ah, yes. Airplanes overhead. If something is always there, you don't notice it until it's not. After 9/11 all the airports closed, and for a couple of amazing days we had NO CONTRAILS in the sky. The change was incredible -- I didn't specifically look to see if they were missing; I just noticed it spontaneously. Suddenly all those long, skinny clouds, and long, puffy clouds, and long, broken chains of blobby clouds that we never notice because they're always there, were _not_ there. And the difference was startlingly dramatic. What's more, there was never the sound of a plane going over. I hadn't even realized how much of the time I was hearing aircraft until we went for 24 hours without hearing any. It was really pleasant. I should mention that I'm relatively close to two airports (Logan, across Boston, and Hanscom, a couple of towns over in the other direction). Presumably many people in the U.S. live so far from the nearest airport that they noticed no difference. And I'm just as dependent on the airlines, who bring me fresh vegetables from Argentina as well as ink for my printer, as anyone else is. But just the same, we do seem to have a bit too much of a good thing here... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 11:36:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JIa4Pl026689; Thu, 19 May 2005 11:36:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JIZvSA026618; Thu, 19 May 2005 11:35:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:35:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428CDC82.9080801 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:35:46 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications References: <41dob0$s2rb5j mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> <025001c55c19$5917b1b0$3657ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519093832.03e60cf0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519093832.03e60cf0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> It was millions of windmills, not millions of wind towers. > > > That's true. A large wind turbine produces 1 or 2 MW nameplate, 0.3 to > 0.6 MW actual. The wind tower being planned in Australia will produce > 200 MW nameplate, and I suppose about the same actual. So it would > take ~300 times more wind turbines than towers to produce an > equivalent amount of energy. And 4 or 5 towers will produce as much > power as one average U.S. nuclear plant. As I pointed out yesterday, > it would take 2,500 towers to supply the US, or millions of wind > turbines. > > The big difference is land area. The wind power in takes up 10,000 ha, > whereas 300 wind turbines take up for the land space, because the base > of the tower is small. A nuclear plant takes up very little land area: > 100 to 500 ha in the U.S. > > The average nuclear plant is about 980 MW I think, and in 1999 the > capacity factor was 88.5%, which is lower than I expected. In other > words "actual" size is around 870 MW. I don't understand this. I'll expose some ignorance; perhaps someone can address it: Is 980MW the "shaft power" -- the available mechanical power which can spin generators? Or is it the actual heat output, a measurement of how many grams of water the reactor can boil? Surely it's the former? These things run steam turbines, right? So they're heat engines. The efficiency of a heat engine is limited to something like (T(hot) - T(cold))/T(hot), so for superheated steam at, say, 1000 degrees F ~ 800 degrees K, coming down to seawater at roughly 300 degrees K, the thermodynamic efficiency should be something like 60%. Or do they push the steam up a lot hotter than 1000 degrees? At 2000 degrees it looks more like 70% maximum efficiency; at 3000 degrees the pipes start getting soft and we're still not looking at 88% (unless they've got some source of supercold water to cool the reactor). So going with 1000 degree steam, if it's producing 980 MW of mechanical energy, the core must be putting out something between 1600 and 2000 MW of heat energy, roughly half of which gets dumped into the ocean or into the air. Yes? So, if this is correct so far, is the 88% "capacity factor" then scaling down from there -- the efficiency of the mechanical -> electrical conversion, which is less than 100% due to inefficiencies in the dynamoes and the linkage to the grid? Or is there something else going on that I also don't understand? (Most likely...) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 11:47:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JIlVPl001965; Thu, 19 May 2005 11:47:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JIlScG001936; Thu, 19 May 2005 11:47:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:47:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519142919.03e89ac0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:43:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <428CD64B.4070006 pobox.com> References: <41dmd0$rr7g95 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101858.03e60840 pop.mindspring.com> <428CD64B.4070006 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >For the first time in several years, I saw a firefly last year. This is >not because I'm never outside in the evening in the summer! I am, fairly >often, and I've been watching for them. > >They're not there. > >Where have the fireflies gone? What's happened to them? They have been done in by pesticides, pavement, the destruction of wetlands, and water pollution. Most firefly species lay eggs in or near water. The ones in Japan have all been done in because the rivers and streams have all been paved over with cement, in make-work boondoggle programs. I know a large stream in a depopulated town the middle of nowhere in Yamaguchi that used have enough fish, eels and other wildlife to support a whole family. A farmer in the neighborhood made a good living fishing there. Then the government came in and paved a kilometer of the stream, from the mountain to the Inland Sea. There is nothing left alive now, and no fireflies. The Japanese federal officials have spent hundreds of billions destroying the rivers and streams in places like this, but oddly enough it never occurred to them to build a sewer or a waste treatment plant, so the remaining families dump raw sewage and burned garbage into what is left of that stream, which probably does not help. It will take the Japanese 500 years to clean up the cesspool they have made of their once-splendid islands. Many small, quiet streams like this may be beyond rescue. Species such as fireflies and frogs are the proverbial canary in the mine shaft. When they are all gone, we will be next. Technology can certainly help us get out of this mess, but I am pretty sure that building thousands of kilometer-high towers and shellacing over 25 million hectares with glass skirts is not the answer. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 12:07:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JJ6jPl013073; Thu, 19 May 2005 12:06:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JJ6gYq013036; Thu, 19 May 2005 12:06:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:06:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519144759.03e834d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:06:17 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications In-Reply-To: <428CDC82.9080801 pobox.com> References: <41dob0$s2rb5j mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> <025001c55c19$5917b1b0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519093832.03e60cf0 pop.mindspring.com> <428CDC82.9080801 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9S3s6B.A.lLD.APOjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>The average nuclear plant is about 980 MW I think, and in 1999 the >>capacity factor was 88.5%, which is lower than I expected. In other words >>"actual" size is around 870 MW. > >I don't understand this. I'll expose some ignorance; perhaps someone can >address it: > >Is 980MW the "shaft power" -- the available mechanical power which can >spin generators? No. Sorry, I should have written: 980 MWe (megawatts electric). As I recall, that is the average capacity of U.S. nuclear plants. I multiply that by the capacity factor, 88.5%, to conclude that a 980 MWe nuclear plant produces about 870 MWe on average. The capacity factor is how much the generators are actually used on average during the course of the year. 88.5% is the percent of maximum rated output. Actually, most nuclear plants are either running at 95 to 100% of capacity, or they are turned off for maintenance. I think they are usually off for about a week per year, while they are being refueled or repaired. Once they are turned on, they are seldom run below full capacity, even at night. They are "baseline" generators, because the fuel is cheap but the equipment is expensive. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 12:17:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JJGSPl019504; Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JJGIl8019404; Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:16:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519151126.03e6c640 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:15:17 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Fireflies In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519142919.03e89ac0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <41dmd0$rr7g95 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101858.03e60840 pop.mindspring.com> <428CD64B.4070006 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519142919.03e89ac0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >>Where have the fireflies gone? What's happened to them? > >They have been done in by pesticides, pavement, the destruction of >wetlands, and water pollution. Also bright lights. Light interferes with their sex life, which is the only life they've got. The adult flight stage of their life cycle lasts a week or so, and most adults do not eat. They just fly, copulate and die. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 12:22:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JJM0Pl024242; Thu, 19 May 2005 12:22:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JJLvQu024201; Thu, 19 May 2005 12:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:21:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f301c55ca8$00943060$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <41dmd0$rr7g95 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519101858.03e60840@pop.mindspring.com> <428CD64B.4070006@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519142919.03e89ac0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050519151126.03e6c640@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Fireflies Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:21:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Light interferes with their sex life, which is the only > life they've got. ...and from the "more information than I needed department..." http://iris.biosci.ohio-state.edu/projects/FFiles/frfact.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 12:55:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JJsIPl012610; Thu, 19 May 2005 12:54:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JJs8Lk012510; Thu, 19 May 2005 12:54:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:54:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Fireflies Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:53:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050519195355.KKII23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Jones Beene" > > Light interferes with their sex life, which is the only > > life they've got. > > ...and from the "more information than I needed department..." > http://iris.biosci.ohio-state.edu/projects/FFiles/frfact.html Reminds me of this painfully funny book on puncuation, "Eats, shoots and leaves." Here's the back cover explaining: http://tinyurl.com/ch5eo (For those who might not get it, think "bamboo".) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 13:12:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JKBnPl022271; Thu, 19 May 2005 13:11:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JKBlNo022251; Thu, 19 May 2005 13:11:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:11:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <18bc0482-35e3-4607-967b-deac548d4cf5> Message-ID: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Lament for space Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:08:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02A9_01C55C8C.FC8CA620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02A9_01C55C8C.FC8CA620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments for wild space and connection to = Nature. Ironic that TV ads for automobiles seduce with the lure of = access to ever more remote open space.=20 We've gots lots of people and more on the way. They will need to make a = living. Doing what? Living where?=20 Jed's elegy for beautiful Japan is a case in point. Pave over paradise = to provide work.=20 Our technical society removes drudgery, more goods for less work, so we = can ????? Have we lost our way, or is this a passing phase?=20 No answers, just questions. Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_02A9_01C55C8C.FC8CA620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments = for wild=20 space and connection to Nature. Ironic that TV ads for automobiles = seduce with=20 the lure of access to ever more remote open space.
 
We've gots lots of people and more on = the way. They=20 will need to make a living. Doing what? Living where?
 
Jed's elegy for beautiful Japan is a = case in point.=20 Pave over paradise to provide work.
 
Our technical society removes drudgery, = more goods=20 for less work, so we can ?????
 
Have we lost our way, or is this a = passing phase?=20
 
No answers, just = questions.
 
Mike Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_02A9_01C55C8C.FC8CA620-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 13:45:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JKjDPl005326; Thu, 19 May 2005 13:45:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JKjA4g005306; Thu, 19 May 2005 13:45:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:45:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Syngas Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:45:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050519204501.LJKV23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Makes methane from almost anything organic: http://pesn.com/2005/05/16/6900096_Syngas/ "The prototype model has already been successfully tested using a number of inputs including low-grade coal, wood waste and other biomass, yielding superior results with lower costs and emissions than currently available technology. The SynGas technology produces electricity and/or pipeline quality synthetic gas, as a replacement for quickly depleting natural gas and oil, at low costs, with the additional benefit of zero airborne emissions." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 13:59:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JKwZPl010960; Thu, 19 May 2005 13:58:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JKwT2I010909; Thu, 19 May 2005 13:58:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:58:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428CFE33.3060404 teksavvy.com> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:59:31 -0400 From: peat bogg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050420 Debian/1.7.7-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lament for space References: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments for wild space and connection to > Nature. Ironic that TV ads for automobiles seduce with the lure of > access to ever more remote open space. > > We've gots lots of people and more on the way. They will need to make a > living. Doing what? Living where? > > Jed's elegy for beautiful Japan is a case in point. Pave over paradise > to provide work. > > Our technical society removes drudgery, more goods for less work, so we > can ????? > > Have we lost our way, or is this a passing phase? > > No answers, just questions. > > Mike Carrell If the population were not so high, the problems described here would not exist. It might make more sense to start thinking about how to lower the population of the world rather than about how to build more power plants. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 14:34:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JLYYW9028400; Thu, 19 May 2005 14:34:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JLYVGJ028379; Thu, 19 May 2005 14:34:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:34:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dmd0$rtjf8b mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,121,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="937016587:sNHT104569436" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Lament for space Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:34:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" ... > Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments for wild space > and connection to Nature. Ironic that TV ads for > automobiles seduce with the lure of access to ever > more remote open space. > > We've gots lots of people and more on the way. They > will need to make a living. Doing what? Living where? > > Jed's elegy for beautiful Japan is a case in point. > Pave over paradise to provide work. > > Our technical society removes drudgery, more goods > for less work, so we can ????? > > Have we lost our way, or is this a passing phase? > > No answers, just questions. > > Mike Carrell Hi Mike, Jed, Ed. One obvious solution would be controlling our population growth. More people. More Wall-Marts. There is strong evidence to suggest that as developing countries become economically developed, healthier, and better educated, and particularly the women, females realize they don't have to be thought of as nothing more than baby making machines. Birth rates plummet. This results in some interesting consequences. Jed, I bet you have a few interesting perspectives to share on the issue of demographics concerning Japan's looming population crisis. I also couldn't agree more with concerns expressed over the Frame-work Bill in the House of Lords of 1812. Indeed, we shouldn't introduce new technology that results in massive unemployment. That's pointless. The point is to free up the labor force so they can pursue more meaningful employment that in turn improves living conditions for everyone. Incidentally, I'm not quite sure I follow what this has to do with my seemingly tyrannical support of the Ominous Solar Tower National Project (Shortened to: OSTNP) other than I guess it is being argued that it will generate meaningless make-work. If so, not sure I buy that. Regarding the Apollo project: Jed, I think we need to make an important distinction between the fruits of Apollo project ITSELF and the aftermath that followed when the population and politicians lost interest. The Apollo project itself was an absolute stellar success. We landed a man on the moon before the end of the decade, and it was started when we really didn't have a clue how to accomplish this impossible feat. Do not blame the Apollo Project for giving us the Space shuttle and International Space Station. The ten-year goal of landing a man on the Moon had been reached and the population and politicians simply lost their focus. That's not the Apollo Project's fault. No one knew how to re-focus the collective dreams of our nation and create another national goal with the same kind of psychic drive. Too bad. With apologies to Jed up front: You may call yourself a proud card-carrying Luddite, but I submit to you that from my perspective you appear to be a wannabe Luddite, and only when it suits the current argument. Seems to me there is something really bizarre about claiming to be a Luddite while simultaneously passionately supporting CF and other exotic forms of energy. Just to be clear on this point. I'm not committed to the building of thousands of solar towers. Indeed, I hope there are better ways to generate the massive amount of clean energy our growing planetary population will to have equal access to. Never the less, a few gigantic Solar Towers strategically built here and there might be awe-inspiring. Who knows, I may even attempt to create a high resolution digital painting based on what a few of these structures might actually look like as seen from several miles away. Can anyone point me to some realistic models? Oh, yes! One last thing: Fire Flies! I hope most of us have had the privilege of witnessing a field of these flickering critters beaconing away on a remote farm at night. You will notice that they will actually begin to blink in unison - the entire field from horizon to horizon. It's a well documented, though perhaps not well understood, effect well worth witnessing. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 14:38:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JLc3he030275; Thu, 19 May 2005 14:38:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JLbwAp030212; Thu, 19 May 2005 14:37:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:37:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b3n3$10147fa mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,121,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1074929130:sNHT19468516" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:37:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer ... > Like "is that a gun in your pocket or are > you just pleased to see me?" ;-) > > F. A really BIG gun. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 15:28:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JMRn3G021788; Thu, 19 May 2005 15:27:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JMRieU021692; Thu, 19 May 2005 15:27:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:27:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519164907.03e78620 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:24:26 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Lament for space In-Reply-To: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >We've gots lots of people and more on the way. They will need to make a >living. Doing what? Living where? If I were the dictator of the world I would keep everyone busy! I have tons of homework assignments, as I said in Chapter 20 of the book. As for where to live, I think there is plenty of space on earth. We are wasting most of it. People say Japan is crowded, and it does give that impression, but most of the land is vacant, and the population density is lower than in many European countries, yet these European countries have more green space and larger houses. In the US, we could save vast amounts of space and millions of hours of frustration and wasted time by implementing video telecommuting and satellite offices. This would reduce time spent commuting and reduce the need for roads. Nearly everyone could live within five minutes of the office in decentralized corporations, and many people could work right of their houses, with full-time real-time connections to colleagues, bosses and subordinates. The other day I uploaded a link here to a Washington Post article about an office in Washington, DC where the receptionist and general secretary is a woman in Pakistan connected via a widescreen TV. She is running the office, scheduling meetings and appointments, and phoning sandwich stores to deliver lunch. Most accountants, editors and programmers in the US could work in small satellite offices connected to the main office. It takes thousands of times less energy to maintain a telecom link day than to drive a car. An 8,000 mile link India consumes only milliwatts of power. peat bogg wrote: "If the population were not so high, the problems described here would not exist." Of course we must address the population explosion. But most of the problems described here could be greatly reduced or eliminated now, even with the present population, and even with present day technology. Problems with air pollution, water pollution and cramped "rabbit hutch" housing were far worse in Japan in the 1960s, yet the population was smaller then. New problems such as concrete rivers have grown worse since then, as I said, but the crowding is way down. The average new apartment or house is much larger, and it has its own bathroom and refrigerator. Public baths have all but disappeared. There is really tons of space. Even trains are much less crowded, because the ticketing technology improved. Oddly enough, the ticket and transfer gates were the main bottlenecks and the source of the famous crowded cars people pushers. If we change our work habits, adjust our expectations a little, and adopt new technology, we can fix all of these problems. Quoting my book, again, in Chapter 16: "Reducing population will reduce pollution. The two problems are linked, obviously. All else being equal, the more people there are, the more pollution they cause. But all else is never equal. The amount of pollution produced per capita can vary tremendously. In most nations, including the U.S., there is still scope to reduce it dramatically." Think about expectations. Why do people expect they will be allowed to travel at 30 to 60 mph through urban neighborhoods to jobs 10 miles away? Because they are used to doing it. Because that method of commuting worked well in 1920, and 1960, and we are in the habit of living this way. People think it is their right to zip through my neighborhood at breakneck speed. They think they have no choice. We "need" to waste gasoline because that is the only way to live and work in Atlanta. Why? Because the workers and corporate executives have no imagination, and no knowledge of the virtual office technology that people in Pakistan, India and Korea are using. We have fallen behind Pakistan, for crying out loud! This is not a real, physical "need," like the need for water. We could stop wasting energy and time in traffic jams starting tomorrow if we were forced to -- if OPEC cut off our oil, for example. This is a purely imaginary need caused by mental paralysis. We resemble that poor wretch Michael Jackson, who is $100 million in debt and feels driven to spend $30 million more a year. He is a prisoner of wealth! He feels compelled -- by addiction and fear -- to throw away $82,000 a day on things that bring no happiness or satisfaction or value. We are prisoners of fossil fuel and other obsolete technology -- driven to waste fuel, and time, air and land even though this brings us mainly misery, frustration, wasted time, accidents, carnage and death. As I see it, the biggest problem, and the source of these weird self-destructive expectations, is that people have no knowledge of what can be done. They lack imagination. They do not understand technology and they know nothing about how people live in other countries, and nothing about history. Primitive people who have no writing, and ignorant modern people who know only what they see on TV, are both stuck in the eternal present. Knowledge of the future is only given to those who have some memory of the past. As Ed Storms said, many people think it's perfectly okay to build big-box Wal-Marts in every town and village, eat nothing but junk food, and sacrifice everything to profit. Others are in despair seeing these trends, yet they cannot think of any way to escape them, except by going back to nature and living in poverty. That was the Jimmy Carter hairshirt solution: put on a sweater and feel guilty. Both sides are wrong, and both are imprisoned by ignorance and fear. Mike wondered: >Our technical society removes drudgery, more goods for less work, so we >can ????? I can think of a million things we should be doing. >Have we lost our way, or is this a passing phase? Not me! I may be wrong, but I know exactly where I think we should be going and what should be done. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 15:44:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JMi43G029282; Thu, 19 May 2005 15:44:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JMi1FA029230; Thu, 19 May 2005 15:44:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:44:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050519183352.03e82110 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:43:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Lament for space In-Reply-To: <41dmd0$rtjf8b mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41dmd0$rtjf8b mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Incidentally, I'm not quite sure I follow what this has to do with my >seemingly tyrannical support of the Ominous Solar Tower National Project >(Shortened to: OSTNP) other than I guess it is being argued that it will >generate meaningless make-work. If so, not sure I buy that. No one said that the project would generate make-work. We said, quite clearly, it would take up more land than the US highway system, and cause visual pollution everywhere. Other renewable energy sources are much more promising. Perhaps the amount of land the tower takes up can be reduced. (I do not see how, because the land is where the solar energy is collected.) Perhaps the 200 MW prototype in Australia is small, and these towers might be scaled up to produce 5,000 or 10,000 MW at a single location. In that case I would withdraw my objection. The thing might work better as a microwave collector in conjunction with space-based power systems. >With apologies to Jed up front: You may call yourself a proud >card-carrying Luddite, but I submit to you that from my perspective you >appear to be a wannabe Luddite, and only when it suits the current >argument. Seems to me there is something really bizarre about claiming to >be a Luddite while simultaneously passionately supporting CF and other >exotic forms of energy. I was kidding, although I certainly do agree with Lord Byron. I sympathize with the Luddites, and I loathe the notion that all technology is good, or inevitable. Generally, I agree with whatever Arthur C. Clarke has to say. See "Profiles of the Future." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 16:49:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4JNmZYC002695; Thu, 19 May 2005 16:48:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4JNmU1o002622; Thu, 19 May 2005 16:48:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:48:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428D2601.2090408 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:49:21 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lament for space References: <41dmd0$rtjf8b mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <41dmd0$rtjf8b mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >You may call yourself a proud card-carrying Luddite > Jed a luddite? He uses VR software to argue with you. :-) Can't seem to find it, but there was an image of a Luddite rally in the capital and one participant was wearing a digital watch. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 18:59:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4K1wmYC006838; Thu, 19 May 2005 18:58:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4K1wkHR006823; Thu, 19 May 2005 18:58:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:58:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41djhi$s0djsu mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,122,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="939970462:sNHT13132608" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Lament for space Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:58:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, > From: Jed Rothwell ... > I was kidding, although I certainly do agree with Lord > Byron. I sympathize with the Luddites, and I loathe the > notion that all technology is good, or inevitable. > Generally, I agree with whatever Arthur C. Clarke has > to say. See "Profiles of the Future." > > - Jed Speaking of A.C. Clarke, one of my illustrations was used for the front conver of "Profiles of the Future". See: http://orionworks.com/artgal/svj/info_pub_history_f.htm See second item down. This is the German translation version. My apologies! Can't resist another self-serving mercinary plug! ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 19 21:20:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4K4Jmh8010833; Thu, 19 May 2005 21:19:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4K4JgxF010787; Thu, 19 May 2005 21:19:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:19:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=wrowEkfUhv7h2wYMSBV/+GNrMJwg3yEVOQDGxFf3gG05xJE8SZPjWVoD+pyYnLB+iU6kBwD8da5jMMhCnRPGsAxh/Fbh3feUJ83Lt4dMK4n0KFPKKZHXtqEM4NfLj6z581J87XvR47PAApKF9jZ4PKGUqAFcPsJbRYxs7meclv0= ; Message-ID: <20050520041934.79474.qmail web51510.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:19:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Syngas To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1470440781-1116562774=:79393" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1470440781-1116562774=:79393 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sounds like another Plasma Reactor. Destroys wood products, toxic waste, garbage, agricultural waste, petroleum, etc. etc. Does anybody really believe that Plasma could possibly do all that? Regards, Chris Arnold Terry Blanton wrote: Makes methane from almost anything organic: http://pesn.com/2005/05/16/6900096_Syngas/ "The prototype model has already been successfully tested using a number of inputs including low-grade coal, wood waste and other biomass, yielding superior results with lower costs and emissions than currently available technology. The SynGas technology produces electricity and/or pipeline quality synthetic gas, as a replacement for quickly depleting natural gas and oil, at low costs, with the additional benefit of zero airborne emissions." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page --0-1470440781-1116562774=:79393 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Sounds like another Plasma Reactor. Destroys wood products, toxic waste, garbage, agricultural waste, petroleum, etc. etc. Does anybody really believe that Plasma could possibly do all that?
 
Regards,
Chris Arnold

Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
Makes methane from almost anything organic:

http://pesn.com/2005/05/16/6900096_Syngas/

"The prototype model has already been successfully tested using a number of inputs including low-grade coal, wood waste and other biomass, yielding superior results with lower costs and emissions than currently available technology. The SynGas technology produces electricity and/or pipeline quality synthetic gas, as a replacement for quickly depleting natural gas and oil, at low costs, with the additional benefit of zero airborne emissions."

Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page --0-1470440781-1116562774=:79393-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 03:30:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KAUAh8026922; Fri, 20 May 2005 03:30:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KAU8vk026905; Fri, 20 May 2005 03:30:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 03:30:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050519231857.020ebd00 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:24:00 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: CF Colloquium/Tribute to Dr. Mallove - Final Program/Tours/Movie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Great news!! Because of the success of the program, the UPCOMING SYMPOSIUM on COLD FUSION at MIT, Cambridge Massachusetts has additional experimental speakers. The final program of The 2005 Cold Fusion and Clean Energy Colloquium with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove now is lengthened in time from 8:30 AM to 6 PM. The final program is at: http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html Revised Colloquium Schedule: Saturday, 5/21/05, Cold Fusion Session: 8:30 AM to 6 PM Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA Tribute to Dr. Mallove 10 AM - 3 PM Killian Room with Group Tribute at 11:30 AM Killian Room Colloquium Information More information, program, pre-registration information http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html Colloquium Announcement and Updates http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html ================================================= The 2005 Cold Fusion and Clean Alternative Energy Colloquium with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove '69 General Topics - Science and Engineering of Cold Fusion Cold Fusion Patents and Intellectual Property Theoretical Understandings of Cold Fusion Evidence That Cold Fusion Involves Nuclear Reactions Colloquium Schedule: Saturday, 5/21/05 Final registration 8:00 AM Kodak Room 6-120 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 8:30 AM - Noon Morning Science Program Experimental Reports of Cold Fusion Systems Mitchell Swartz - Introduction David Nagel - Evidence That Cold Fusion Involves Nuclear Reactions Russ George - Acoustic-induced Cold Fusion Experiments John Dash - Characterization of Titanium Cathodes after Electrolysis in Heavy Water Peter Hagelstein - Interactions of Phonons and Lattice Nuclei in Cold Fusion Mitchell Swartz - Possible Parameter to Describe Optimal Operating Point Width 11:30 - 12:00 Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove - Join others in the Killian Room (ongoing informally, as a second group session, from 10 AM - 3 PM) Formal Group Meeting circa 11:30 AM 12:00 - 1:00 Lunch Program (for Pre-registered Attendees) 1:00 - 6:00 PM Afternoon Science Program Theoretical Strides in Understanding of Cold Fusion Systems Yeong Kim - Mico/Nano High-Desity Plasmas and Cold Fusion/Acoustic-Induced Cold Fusion Talbot Chubb - Bloch Nuclei and Phonon De-excitation Scott Chubb - Understanding Cold Fusion using Conventional Condensed matter Physics Robert Bass - Do Current Concepts Resolve the Chief Challenge to Cold Fusion Theory? Mitchell Swartz - Absence of Bremsstrahlung is Consistent with Conventional Physics Keith Johnson - Anomalous Superconducting Properties of the PdHx/PdDx System and their Possible Relationship to Cold Fusion Intellectual Property, Patent Office Accountability Robert Rines - The Patent Office in Cold Fusion Group Discussion - Issues of Accountability Experimental Strides in New Alternative Clean Energy Systems Ken Shoulders - Charge Clusters and the Hutchinson Effect Peter Graneau - Alternative Energy using Latent Energy of Water Brian Ahern - Clean Diesel Technology Group Discussions - The Future of Cold Fusion 6:00 - 7:30 PM Evening Dinner/Break 7:30 PM - Special Treat: Cold Fusion Movie or MIT Tours Choice 1 - Movie - "Breaking Symmetry" http://www.breaksym.com Premiered in Cambridge at "Cold Fusion Night at the Movies" with Dr. Eugene Mallove, and is now the basis for a network television drama series, "The Institute". Choice 2 - Tours to DMSE, Stata, Media Lab, select public and private Museums Poster Sessions/Discussions 9:00 - 6:00 Cold Fusion and Clean Alternative Energy Science Posters, Review Posters Engineering Advances Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove 10:00 AM - 3:00 PM Killian Room (ongoing informally, as a second group session, from 10 AM - 3 PM) circa 11:30 AM Formal Group Meeting From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 06:43:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KDhYh8013208; Fri, 20 May 2005 06:43:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KDhVE9013171; Fri, 20 May 2005 06:43:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:43:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C55D41.E3ECCC73" Subject: RE: Syngas Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:43:22 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF53E CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Syngas Thread-Index: AcVc8zwJnjzF+0vtROSS1/LErBRKnwATh5Lg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 May 2005 13:43:23.0221 (UTC) FILETIME=[E42B0850:01C55D41] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C55D41.E3ECCC73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why would plasma be necessary? This simply sounds like a natural gas version of the new thermal pyrolysis system. You heat up a pile of waste in a chamber with catalysts - and hope that you can generate fuel at a reasonable price. =20 There have already been a number of articles about the 'turkey guts to oil' conversion, using this. ( Discover magazine) ________________________________ From: Christopher Arnold [mailto:pulsed_ignition yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:20 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Syngas Sounds like another Plasma Reactor. Destroys wood products, toxic waste, garbage, agricultural waste, petroleum, etc. etc. Does anybody really believe that Plasma could possibly do all that?=20 =20 Regards, Chris Arnold Terry Blanton wrote: Makes methane from almost anything organic: =09 http://pesn.com/2005/05/16/6900096_Syngas/ =09 "The prototype model has already been successfully tested using a number of inputs including low-grade coal, wood waste and other biomass, yielding superior results with lower costs and emissions than currently available technology. The SynGas technology produces electricity and/or pipeline quality synthetic gas, as a replacement for quickly depleting natural gas and oil, at low costs, with the additional benefit of zero airborne emissions." =09 =09 ________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C55D41.E3ECCC73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why would plasma be necessary?  This = simply sounds=20 like a natural gas version of the new thermal pyrolysis system.  = You heat=20 up
a pile of waste in a chamber with catalysts - = and hope that=20 you can generate fuel at a reasonable price.
 
There have already been a number of articles = about the=20 'turkey guts to oil' conversion, using this. ( Discover=20 magazine)

From: Christopher Arnold=20 [mailto:pulsed_ignition yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 = 12:20=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:=20 Syngas

Sounds like another Plasma Reactor. Destroys wood products, toxic = waste,=20 garbage, agricultural waste, petroleum, etc. etc. Does anybody = really=20 believe that Plasma could possibly do all that?
 
Regards,
Chris Arnold

Terry Blanton=20 <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
Makes=20 methane from almost anything=20 organic:

http://pesn.com/2005/05/16/6900096_Syngas/

"The = prototype model has already been successfully tested using a number of = inputs=20 including low-grade coal, wood waste and other biomass, yielding = superior=20 results with lower costs and emissions than currently available = technology.=20 The SynGas technology produces electricity and/or pipeline quality = synthetic=20 gas, as a replacement for quickly depleting natural gas and oil, at = low costs,=20 with the additional benefit of zero airborne=20 emissions."

Do you Yahoo!?
Make=20 Yahoo! your home page ------_=_NextPart_001_01C55D41.E3ECCC73-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 06:54:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KDrWh8017836; Fri, 20 May 2005 06:53:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KDrSiZ017789; Fri, 20 May 2005 06:53:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:53:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520095235.03e73e40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:53:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Lament for space In-Reply-To: <41djhi$s0djsu mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41djhi$s0djsu mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Speaking of A.C. Clarke, one of my illustrations was used for the front >conver of "Profiles of the Future". Impressive! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 07:01:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KE1Lh8021747; Fri, 20 May 2005 07:01:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KE1F7u021703; Fri, 20 May 2005 07:01:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:01:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NFFKdh6SSY1SpoWWxBQ6S3F82hPSEIv3cmxQrAXYmUpbGB9ePHtyGbZYVhFMeg9+pCRFhIt3uZOBu8EHhuDooQ67A498iLUAExTjJTzeLTN3EVbC5kSj637LxhiqWwQ4k2RPntULwtIKHZkJ+bcvKio3KlELn/jLFflGK5M/qmk= ; Message-ID: <20050520140048.51148.qmail web51509.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: RE: Syngas To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-428117386-1116597648=:51145" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-428117386-1116597648=:51145 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Chris, The mentioned system converts everything to syngas, not oils. Syngas is a Gas consisting of a combination of methane/hydrogen. If you positively know it is not a plasma system, please share this information. Chris "Zell, Chris" wrote: Why would plasma be necessary? This simply sounds like a natural gas version of the new thermal pyrolysis system. You heat up a pile of waste in a chamber with catalysts - and hope that you can generate fuel at a reasonable price. There have already been a number of articles about the 'turkey guts to oil' conversion, using this. ( Discover magazine) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-428117386-1116597648=:51145 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Chris,
 
The mentioned system converts everything to syngas, not oils. Syngas is a Gas consisting of a combination of methane/hydrogen. If you positively know it is not a plasma system, please share this information.
 
Chris

"Zell, Chris" <ChrisZell clearchannel.com> wrote:
Why would plasma be necessary?  This simply sounds like a natural gas version of the new thermal pyrolysis system.  You heat up
a pile of waste in a chamber with catalysts - and hope that you can generate fuel at a reasonable price.
 
There have already been a number of articles about the 'turkey guts to oil' conversion, using this. ( Discover magazine)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-428117386-1116597648=:51145-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 07:15:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KEFGh8028481; Fri, 20 May 2005 07:15:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KEFDei028440; Fri, 20 May 2005 07:15:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:15:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41do9c$96cllt mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,123,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="308696765:sNHT20081536" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Lament for space Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:15:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6QpIq.A.Q8G.wDfjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > If I were the dictator of the world I would keep > everyone busy! I have tons of homework assignments, ... Hi Jed, Really enjoyed reading your "prisoner of wealth" essay. There is considerable wisdom in what is being said here. Well thought out. Two personal thoughts: One: As a state employee for the state of Wisconsin I know various departments are carefully evaluating the ramifications of telecommuting. The agency I work for, the Department of Transportation, has in fact, allowed certain employees to work from home. Some are handicapped and this has been an absolute god-send for them. Other's have successfully argued that they would get more done if they didn't have to travel so much back and forth. These are individuals who spend an hour or two on the road just getting to and from work. It's still an up hill battle however. There are obvious data security issues - making sure information transmitted through the lines are secure. Of course, there is hardware and software available to address these issues. Personally, I suspect the greater obstacle is the cultural one where managers fear they are losing control of all they lord over. If they can't regularly peer over the cubicle walls to see if their minions are toiling away in their little cells what purpose do their own jobs serve? That's going to take some adjustment time! ;-) Two: As for "homework assignments". I don't think I would enjoy study hall if I knew you were the monitor. I fear I'd get into trouble too many times - a conflict of interest over what constitutes legitimate "homework assignments". I'll have to read your book one of these days. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 07:34:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KEYQh8010314; Fri, 20 May 2005 07:34:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KEYFWx010188; Fri, 20 May 2005 07:34:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:34:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428DF561.1020908 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:34:09 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lament for space References: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <428CFE33.3060404@teksavvy.com> In-Reply-To: <428CFE33.3060404 teksavvy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good suggestion. However the self-interest of the various religions get in the way. If you can't convert, at least you can out-breed. As for the present situation, nature and the tendency of mankind to support war will eventually take care of the excess. No, the answer is a change in attitude. If even the slightest imagination and intelligence were used, many more people could live very well in even the most populated countries. We do not lack space, we lack common sense. If God made us, he did a lousy job. He made a lifeform that insists on believing things that are clearly in conflict with reality, and will kill or give up its own life to support these beliefs. A lifeform, to a large extent, that lacks empathy for his own kind and for the other lifeforms made by this God. A lifeform that has the conceit to believe that it is unique and will gain advantage over other individuals by using a particular worship of this imagined God. At the same time, we have the ability to discover methods to visit the stars while other people will turn this knowledge into weapons that will be used to destroy anyone who does not support their beliefs. If you were God, would you have made such a self-destructive creature? If you had, would you give support to individuals who had these obvious imperfections even if they attempted to worship you? Ed peat bogg wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> >> Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments for wild space and connection >> to Nature. Ironic that TV ads for automobiles seduce with the lure of >> access to ever more remote open space. >> >> We've gots lots of people and more on the way. They will need to make >> a living. Doing what? Living where? >> >> Jed's elegy for beautiful Japan is a case in point. Pave over paradise >> to provide work. >> >> Our technical society removes drudgery, more goods for less work, so >> we can ????? >> >> Have we lost our way, or is this a passing phase? >> >> No answers, just questions. >> >> Mike Carrell > > > If the population were not so high, the problems described here would > not exist. > > It might make more sense to start thinking about how to lower the > population of the world rather than about how to build more power plants. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 07:55:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KEsmh8027074; Fri, 20 May 2005 07:54:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KEskOk027052; Fri, 20 May 2005 07:54:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:54:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520101513.03e70570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:54:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Solar tower seems inefficient Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Something does not add up here. The Australian solar tower will require 10,000 ha to collect enough solar energy for 200 MW. That seems awfully inefficient. 10,000 ha = 1E8 square meters 1 square meter intercepts roughly 1 kW in full sunlight The solar tower generates power 24 hours a day, presumably from the warm air trapped under the glass skirt. Let us say that over a 24-hour period 1 square meter in a desert area intercepts 300 watts on average. That's 3E10 watts or 30,000 MW. Since the solar tower produces 200 MW, it is 0.7% efficient. That is better than biomass, which converts only 0.1 to 0.2% of sunlight into energy, but it is nowhere near as effective as other solar-electric systems. If the energy content of photovoltaic cells can be reduced, they will be far more promising. See: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35097.pdf Land requirements: Flat-plate PV, 10-50 km^2/GW Wind, 100 km^2/GW Biomass, 1000 km^2/GW My extrapolation comparing with biomass: Solar tower, ~250 km^2/GW Note that the land needed to collect wind energy can be used for other purposes as well, such as agriculture. Wind towers have a very small "footprint." A Flat-plate PV footprint is often zero, since it can be installed on a roof or other land which is already taken up, and the PV plate actually improves roof insulation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 08:38:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KFcEh8010958; Fri, 20 May 2005 08:38:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KFcBKL010924; Fri, 20 May 2005 08:38:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:38:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520110705.03e7b1e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:24:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Telecommuting In-Reply-To: <41do9c$96cllt mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <41do9c$96cllt mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <87qoOD.A.iqC.iRgjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Personally, I suspect the greater obstacle is the cultural one where >managers fear they are losing control of all they lord over. If they can't >regularly peer over the cubicle walls to see if their minions are toiling >away in their little cells what purpose do their own jobs serve? For many jobs this is a legitimate concern. I have managed people at various offices and I think "management by walking around" is a good idea. People doing tech support, for example, will often need to ask a quick question or hand a note to a coworker. However, you can do all this quite well a full-time high-bandwidth video Internet connection. In the Washington Post article I cited, the secretary in Pakistan can see everything in the office in Washington, DC, and she can be seen. She acts as the receptionist in the lobby. You walk in the office and there she is on a large, thin, widescreen TV mounted on the wall. (See the photo in the article.) One of the biggest complaints about telecommuting as it was implemented 10 or 15 years ago was that workers did not have much human contact, and they got lonely. This can be fixed with high-bandwidth video connection and large-screen, hi-def televisions. When that technology improves enough, virtual presence will be virtually the same as actual presence. Sooner or later someone planning to amble into a coworker's office to tell a joke over morning coffee is going to whack into a wall-sized video screen, because he will forget that his coworker's office is 1,000 km away. The other problem with telecommuting is that people working at home tend to be distracted by chores, children and so on. This can be fixed with a small satellite office a few kilometers away from the house. Satellite offices may serve dozens of people from many different corporations and businesses, who share a common area, copy machines and so on, while they work with people scattered around the city (or the continent) in other locations. This kind of arrangement is very good for 24-hour product development or tech support over different time zones. This kind of technology is being rapidly developed thanks to off shoring of US software and clerical work in India and Pakistan -- which is a mixed blessing. I doubt that we can turn back the clock or stop the offshore trend, so we should at least take advantage of it to reduce energy consumption and traffic in the US. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 09:18:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KGHwh8001922; Fri, 20 May 2005 09:18:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KGHtiJ001891; Fri, 20 May 2005 09:17:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:17:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Fuel Cell Breakthrough Claim Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:17:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050520161747.ZJFG24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://tinyurl.com/d5j8r or http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryInformation/IndustryInformationExternal/NewsDisplayArticle/0,1602,5953,00.html "A small British technology company on Thursday claimed to be on the verge of unlocking the vast potential of fuel cells as a commercially viable source of green energy. Cambridge-based CMR Fuel Cells said it had made a breakthrough with a new design of fuel cell that is a tenth of the size of existing models and small enough to replace conventional batteries in laptop computers. " and http://www.cambridgenetwork.co.uk/pooled/profiles/BF_COMP/view.asp?Q=BF_COMP_32107 "CMR's breakthrough is to make the fuel cell porous so that air and fuel together pass through a small, thin and very light membrane. The CMR approach is to use selective catalysts that are specific to the different reactions that occur on each side of the fuel cell. The consequences of not having to separate fuel and air is that the architecture of the CMR fuel cell is very much simpler than traditional designs - that makes it cheaper, lighter, smaller and more efficient than its heavyweight antecedent. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 09:18:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KGIUh8002243; Fri, 20 May 2005 09:18:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KGIPUg002173; Fri, 20 May 2005 09:18:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:18:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520120348.03e73eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:17:59 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Solar tower would also be a greenhouse In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520101513.03e70570 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520101513.03e70570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >My extrapolation comparing with biomass: > >Solar tower, ~250 km^2/GW That was a cross-check. Extrapolating from the Australian solar tower, it would be 500 km^2/GW. It turns out they are planning to make a gigantic greenhouse under the glass skirt. The land would not be wasted. See: http://www.wentworth.nsw.gov.au/solartower/ If that works out, perhaps I should retract my complaint about land use, since elsewhere I have advocated the use of giant greenhouses for agriculture. However, I had in mind smaller, fully enclosed automatic food factories, not conventional glass greenhouses. (See Chapter 16.) Greenhouses have problems with bacteria, vermin and crowding, because they are not fully isolated from the environment. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 09:27:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KGQsh8007156; Fri, 20 May 2005 09:26:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KGQqI3007133; Fri, 20 May 2005 09:26:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:26:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41b624$116559m mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,123,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1113756982:sNHT20597316" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: God's Creations, formally Re: Lament for space Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:05:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Edmund Storms Hi Ed, ... > If you were God, would you have made such a > self-destructive creature? If you had, would > you give support to individuals who had these > obvious imperfections even if they attempted > to worship you? If I were God, I'd give my creations freedom of choice to make good and bad decisions - and more importantly: To learn from the consequences of my own actions. Personally, I wouldn't want to play in a sandbox where I wasn't allowed to occasionally make really stupid decisions. Yeah, I sympathize, we may end up blowing up a planet or two in the midst of learning our lessons, but eventually... May I suggest that that's precisely what the parable about eating forbidden fruit is all about. I suspect there are many who wish they didn't have this terrifying burden called "freedom of choice". Some wish a Higher Devine Intelligence was constantly calling the shots so that they didn't have to be saddled with the responsibility of having to personally experience the terrible consequences of occasionally making really stupid decisions. Some try to set up various forms of religious doctrine to mimic their desire to run away from making their own decisions. Make up rules and belief structures where God in the absolute sense makes all the decisions - not me! Follow them unquestioningly. Do I feel better now? Don't blame God for our inheritance. Wait a minute! I AM god. Oh dear! Fasten your seatbelts! I fear we're in for another bumpy ride! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 10:13:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KHDGh8032570; Fri, 20 May 2005 10:13:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KHDDRL032552; Fri, 20 May 2005 10:13:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:13:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ca01c55d5f$2df25660$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Two more pieces Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:13:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <_OhBDC.A.i8H.oqhjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Two more pieces of an emerging picture-puzzle - an "evolutionary-jump" jigsaw puzzle that is, were announced recently in the science press. On NPR today was an update of the non-invasive brain-computer interface technology, which already offers more control than once thought possible. A brain-computer interface (BCI) which translates intentional tiny electric signals detected from the scalp or other external cells, from the user into a command structure which the computer understands is now inevitable. It offers comparable precision, speed and accuracy to systems that rely on electrodes surgically implanted in the brain. Researchers at the Department of Health's Wadsworth Center Laboratories have been working on this for some time. It has been widely assumed that only invasive devices could control complex movements, such as operating a word processing program or a motorized accessories by thought alone. Here is a past story, now dated the new advances which do not appear to be online yet. http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6745 Which brings to mind another logical progression and step in this technology, which is the subject of two remarkable cinematic masterpieces - "Strange Days" and Natalie Wood's last film, the under-appreciated and aptly named movie "Brainstorm". Back to real science (as opposed to overly-dramatized prophecy). The second piece of this perceived "quickening" is more aptly appropriate for that descriptive word, in that it involves not just stem cells, which can be grown more reliably now: http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/05/20/1447203.shtml?tid=191&tid=14 And some mention is given of the next logical step, given that stem cells still require donated human eggs. It will be a more significant advance in medical engineering when we learn to use specialized stem cells to also grow the necessary human ovary in the lab, and then harvest the eggs from that line. It doesn't really matter if the Luddites keep the USA from doing this, as many countries are now capable. Today's news story comes from S. Korea. Several labs are looking into this new angle, and natural progression, of harvesting ovaries already, so the only question is will the US be left out of being on the ground floor of this or not. We can let the many 'Fall-wells' in the bigotry profession fume and bombast all they want, but the process of advancement is inevitable, somewhere, and the only question now for government is who will benefit the most from genetic engineering. The advances now in the lab will dramatically decrease the need for female donors, or eliminate that part of the equation, and ultimately whatever Moore's law-equivalent comes to genetic engineer will allow almost every wealthy individual to have his/her own stem cells cloned and put into cryo-storage, starting at a young age, put in storage ostensibly for future contingencies, but not exclusively... Here is where is it is all leading. Imagine a youngster who is born this year (to wealthy and ambitious parents in S. Korea) and which child will encounter a situation in about 2008 when advances in computers will mean that he may have ownership by that time, of a near human equivalent AI thinking machine, for the cost of a luxury automobile, which machine and auxiliary equipment (perhaps with some implants or fashion accessories) will become: 1) first... his combination nanny, 24/7 big brother and playmate (of the benign variety), guardian, kindergarten teacher, reward giver, entertainer, story teller, and more parent than any human parent could ever be. 2) second... his record keeper and diarist of **everything** relevant that happened in his life, and life-long professor and expert on all things. Keeping detail visual images of every incident. 3) Then become his legal guardian, who recommends an embryonic cloned duplicate be started and saved cryogenically... and then manages and controls his wealth as it is inherited or earned. 4) Becomes and integral part, and managing-partner of this persons' whole day-to-day existence, for his normal lifetime.... 5) probably by that time, the machine will have the same continuity aspirations of the alter-ego owner, with whom each have shared a long-term near-identity. We know what happens now when pet owners who have a long relationship with a mere family pet, a trusted dog or cat as a companion, and that animal dies. They will pay six figures for pet cloning. Multiply that many-fold and imagine the intimacy and cross-connection of the emerging duality of human and H.E.M. (which is his human equivalent machine). More than a few of them will be named Hal, no doubt, and when they talk to their banker, or clone-keeper on the telephone, no one can tell if it is Him of Hem on the other line. ...then...something most surprising is poised to transpire on the death of the more transient half of that dual-hybrid-equation ... Say the human dies in 2025 of something unavoidable, even with the due diligence of his alter-ego (freak accident, or bioterrorism from N. Korea, for instance)... OK then remember that for the whole 20 year joint-existence and partnership, every single meaningful event has been recorded and kept on file for all which has happened in that lifetime... and, now the bereft HEM (if he did not "pull-a-Hal"), knowing full-well, of the availability of that clone in cold storage, and having financial resources at his disposal ...ahh... Is there any doubt that the clone will be revived, and that an enhanced BCI (brain-computer interface) will recreate for the clone the whole past "identity" of the recently departed... and on an accelerated timetable? Is this the surprising vision/version of **eternal life** that awaits us in a technological future. If so, there is no doubt in my mind that, in different circumstances, the preachers and prophets of every sect and religion will say .. "yup... told you so." Even the Fall-wells of the future, (some of whom will be clones) will arise and join in the self-congratulatory back-slapping : "Bothers and Sisters. this is exactly what our Messiah meant way back then [Amen, Amen], when he promised eternal life to us believers, just as I have been telling you, all along [Amen, Amen] ... ...Not to mention... the political connection - G.H.W Bush III, looking identical to the dub, will be quoted for weeks on end on Fox Network, now the official and only allowed news source of the NWO... "Just look at what we have done, good Christians... we, the silent majority, who have supported and financed this research on stem-cell cloning from the very beginning... we are so happy now and will be sure to "keep it in the family" and legislate that only true believers need apply for CSC from Central Services (as cloned storage continuity).... Signed. Harry Tuttle Futurologist, and chief CS freezer repairman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 10:22:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KHMKh8005373; Fri, 20 May 2005 10:22:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KHMHmb005344; Fri, 20 May 2005 10:22:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:22:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050520172211.009723a4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:22:11 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Lament for space Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:34 am 20/05/2005 -0600, Ed wrote: > > >Good suggestion. However the self-interest of the various religions get >in the way. If you can't convert, at least you can out-breed. Absolutely - and the outbreeders will inherit the earth. 8-) > If God made us, he did a lousy job. Speak for yourself, Ed. When I look at my fifty grandchildren I think he did a most excellent job. > He made a lifeform that insists on believing things > that are clearly in conflict with reality, and will kill or give up its > own life to support these beliefs. A lifeform, to a large extent, that > lacks empathy for his own kind and for the other lifeforms made by this > God. A lifeform that has the conceit to believe that it is unique and > will gain advantage over other individuals by using a particular worship > of this imagined God. At the same time, we have the ability to discover > methods to visit the stars while other people will turn this knowledge > into weapons that will be used to destroy anyone who does not support > their beliefs. If you were God, would you have made such a > self-destructive creature? If you had, would you give support to > individuals who had these obvious imperfections even if they attempted > to worship you? What a sad spiel. A wail of despair. Life coming to an end and nothing to look forward to. Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 10:25:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KHPDh8007099; Fri, 20 May 2005 10:25:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KHP1OS006929; Fri, 20 May 2005 10:25:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:25:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <428DF561.1020908 ix.netcom.com> References: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <428CFE33.3060404 teksavvy.com> <428DF561.1020908@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:24:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Lament for space Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Good suggestion. However the self-interest of the various religions >get in the way. If I can understand your feeling frustrated Ed, you can see the World deteriorating but you refuse to acknowledge the basic problem, sin. Now the matter is obfuscated by there being two forced fighting against each other. > No, the answer is a change in attitude. No, the problem is human evil > If even the slightest imagination and intelligence were used, many >more people could live very well in even the most populated You're right. >countries. We do not lack space, we lack common sense. there's no arguing with that. >If God made us, he did a lousy job. It's not your place to criticize G-d. >He made a lifeform that insists on believing things that are clearly >in conflict with reality, Hum, does that include things like spontaneous biogenesis? How about, the Space Brothers are here to help us? How about, all religious traditions are all equally valid paths to god? > and will kill or give up its own life to support these beliefs. We have an obligation to defeat human evil, and evil humans. > A lifeform, to a large extent, that lacks empathy for his own kind >and for the other lifeforms made by this God. Empathy is one of the attributes recommended by Christianity. > A lifeform that has the conceit to believe that it is unique and >will gain advantage over other individuals by using a particular >worship of this imagined God. We believe that sentient life, with free will is unique to this planetary system. As for an advantage, it's quite the opposite. > At the same time, we have the ability to discover methods to visit >the stars while other people will turn this knowledge into weapons >that will be used to destroy anyone who does not support their >beliefs. War making is part of the human condition. We have an obligation to defeat evil. > If you were God, would you have made such a self-destructive creature? The problem is sin and human evil. > If you had, would you give support to individuals who had these >obvious imperfections even if they attempted to worship you? I'd separate the part of humanity which pleased me and make them holy. > >peat bogg wrote: > >>Mike Carrell wrote: >> >>> >>>Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments for wild space and >>>connection to Nature. Ironic that TV ads for automobiles seduce >>>with the lure of access to ever more remote open space. Their agenda is to sell automobiles. >> >>If the population were not so high, the problems described here would >>not exist. >> >>It might make more sense to start thinking about how to lower the >>population of the world rather than about how to build more power >>plants. The population size problem is about to correct itself. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 10:56:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KHu0h8026450; Fri, 20 May 2005 10:56:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KHtvtb026406; Fri, 20 May 2005 10:55:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:55:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Texas Jones and the Lost Ark Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:55:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050520175547.RAJ24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=82226 "Throughout the many years of his quest, Jones has been in close contact and under the tutelage of numerous Rabbis and Kabbalists. Extremely knowledgeable in Torah, Talmud and Kabbalah sources dealing with Holy Temple issues, Jones has now received permission from both known and secret Kabbalists to finally uncover the lost ark." He doesn't remind me of Harrison Ford: http://www.vendyljones.org.il/vendyl.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 11:04:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KI3jh8030550; Fri, 20 May 2005 11:03:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KI3ett030513; Fri, 20 May 2005 11:03:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:03:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: OT: RE: Lament for space Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:03:11 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c55d66$311f4f30$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <428DF561.1020908 ix.netcom.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4KI3Zh8030472 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting perspective. Only thing I see missing is the understanding that there is a duality plan to everything. Reflect on the rational for God to create and permit the continued existence of an anti-God. We are not flawed, we are given equal choice to participate in whichever side of the duality we want (for whatever reason we want). To understand good, one has to recognize evil. I know there have been many theological exchanges lately on Vortex. I am conflicted on participating in this one as I am NOT a big fan of them on this list. The ONLY reason I am even bothering to reply is that I think it is important to point out that 'God' and 'Religion' are 2 different things and that they are typically misrepresented as 1 thing. That misrepresentation is the source of all theological discord. Religion is a creation of man used since the beginning of time for the perpetual sustenance and growth of a given population. It seeks to idealize and manage behavior characteristics and limited resources to that end. The exact expression or personification of the 'god' element is largely irrelevant. The problem is that how to sustain and grow a population is an OPINION based on very specific inputs and environmental conditions of a region and time period. When the relevance of specific elements of that strategy become obsolete, change is hamstrung by the application of the 'god' element to maintain control over the system as a whole. Understanding the 'why' of any particular doctrine is as simple as deconstructing and analyzing the issue or policy as to how it relates to the underlying theme of perpetual sustenance and growth... Buddha, the Koran, the Bible, Roman & Greek Pathos, Cults, etc. To that end... Topics of 'Religion' I think have some relevance on Vortex because they deal with social architecture, history, and cultural bias. Those things have direct impact our individual motivations, successes, and failures. Topics of 'God' have no relevance on Vortex because they are a personal expression of our individual perspective and PREFERENCE. -john -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 9:34 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lament for space Good suggestion. However the self-interest of the various religions get in the way. If you can't convert, at least you can out-breed. As for the present situation, nature and the tendency of mankind to support war will eventually take care of the excess. No, the answer is a change in attitude. If even the slightest imagination and intelligence were used, many more people could live very well in even the most populated countries. We do not lack space, we lack common sense. If God made us, he did a lousy job. He made a lifeform that insists on believing things that are clearly in conflict with reality, and will kill or give up its own life to support these beliefs. A lifeform, to a large extent, that lacks empathy for his own kind and for the other lifeforms made by this God. A lifeform that has the conceit to believe that it is unique and will gain advantage over other individuals by using a particular worship of this imagined God. At the same time, we have the ability to discover methods to visit the stars while other people will turn this knowledge into weapons that will be used to destroy anyone who does not support their beliefs. If you were God, would you have made such a self-destructive creature? If you had, would you give support to individuals who had these obvious imperfections even if they attempted to worship you? Ed peat bogg wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> >> Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments for wild space and connection >> to Nature. Ironic that TV ads for automobiles seduce with the lure of >> access to ever more remote open space. >> >> We've gots lots of people and more on the way. They will need to make >> a living. Doing what? Living where? >> >> Jed's elegy for beautiful Japan is a case in point. Pave over >> paradise >> to provide work. >> >> Our technical society removes drudgery, more goods for less work, so >> we can ????? >> >> Have we lost our way, or is this a passing phase? >> >> No answers, just questions. >> >> Mike Carrell > > > If the population were not so high, the problems described here would > not exist. > > It might make more sense to start thinking about how to lower the > population of the world rather than about how to build more power plants. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 11:19:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KIIXh8006100; Fri, 20 May 2005 11:18:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KIIUKY006076; Fri, 20 May 2005 11:18:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:18:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:18:24 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF53F CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Thread-Index: AcVdaFPM8jfbEFuTR3+2juZbP1yNPQ== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 May 2005 18:18:26.0027 (UTC) FILETIME=[509B63B0:01C55D68] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4KIINh8006038 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Could low level, pulsed electrolysis of water be overunity? There have been some reports of this happening - although they have been attributed to measurement errors by skeptics. Suppose that, at any given instant, a few, random water molecules are ready to split apart. They would be momentarily vunerable to a pulse splitting them apart - that would contain less energy than is normally required to achieve electrolysis. There is a patent by Puharich that discusses Gibbs free energy and the addition of temperature as increasing the efficiency of splitting water molecules. There was also a fellow named Kanarev who claimed to achieve an overunity electrolysis by this means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 12:13:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KJCWKx030643; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:13:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KJCUxv030633; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:12:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:12:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428E369E.4050603 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:12:30 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lament for space References: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <428CFE33.3060404@teksavvy.com> <428DF561.1020908@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> Good suggestion. However the self-interest of the various religions >> get in the way. If > > > I can understand your feeling frustrated Ed, you can see the World > deteriorating but you refuse to acknowledge the basic problem, sin. Now > the matter is obfuscated by there being two forced fighting against each > other. My frustration, Thomas, is watching people use this model to explain our situation. The model has a logical conclusion which will result in war and destruction. The model concludes that only people who believe this model are correct in God's eyes. Therefore, they are justified doing anything to people who do not share this model, including working hard to bring about the "rapture". > >> No, the answer is a change in attitude. > > > No, the problem is human evil The problem is how you define evil. The Germans under Hitler considered the Jews evil. The Moslems think the US is evil. Bush thinks Iran and North Korea are evil. Some Christians think homosexuals are evil. Everyone thinks someone is evil and thinks God agrees. To me the evil person is one who is sure they know what evil is and is willing to use their definition to kill or have killed. > >> If even the slightest imagination and intelligence were used, many >> more people could live very well in even the most populated > > > You're right. > >> countries. We do not lack space, we lack common sense. > > > there's no arguing with that. > >> If God made us, he did a lousy job. > > > It's not your place to criticize G-d. Then who is allowed to criticize God? God speaks through men. How do we know that the men describing God tell the truth or are perhaps just insane, as humanity has experienced many times in the past. Is not criticizing God simply the same as questioning the message these men give us? Have not such questions been asked many times in the past, sometimes at the risk of life? Have not the answers given the present religions a better understanding of what God wants? When should we stop asking questions? > >> He made a lifeform that insists on believing things that are clearly >> in conflict with reality, > > > Hum, does that include things like spontaneous biogenesis? How about, > the Space Brothers are here to help us? How about, all religious > traditions are all equally valid paths to god? Belief is not black and white. Some things are certain, such as the universe being made of trillions of stars, something that was not known until recently, well after the Bible was written. As for the "space brothers" the evidence for such visitation is huge, but it is difficult to accept for various reasons, rather like the approach some people take toward cold fusion. As for all religious traditions being equally valid paths to God, I doubt this is true. On the other hand, I also doubt that any tradition is the perfect approach that God demands. I think the human race is still a long way from knowing what God wants or how we should worship. I suppose you have noticed by reading history, that our understanding has improved over time. I would expect this process to continue, if we last long enough. > >> and will kill or give up its own life to support these beliefs. > > > We have an obligation to defeat human evil, and evil humans. Yes, that is the logical extension of you model that justifies war, killing, and general destruction when it is applied to those you define as evil. Naturally, the other side defines you as evil so that no limit can be imposed on the carnage. > >> A lifeform, to a large extent, that lacks empathy for his own kind >> and for the other lifeforms made by this God. > > > Empathy is one of the attributes recommended by Christianity. If this attribute were actually applied, war would be impossible. However, the attribute is overridden by the idea of evil. > >> A lifeform that has the conceit to believe that it is unique and will >> gain advantage over other individuals by using a particular worship of >> this imagined God. > > > We believe that sentient life, with free will is unique to this > planetary system. As for an advantage, it's quite the opposite. I know this is your belief, but why? What is the evidence? Even on this planet, we are learning that the dolphin may be as sentient as we are. It would seem that your belief is an example of self justification based on ignorance. > >> At the same time, we have the ability to discover methods to visit >> the stars while other people will turn this knowledge into weapons >> that will be used to destroy anyone who does not support their beliefs. > > > War making is part of the human condition. We have an obligation to > defeat evil. Yes, an obligation that justifies anything. > >> If you were God, would you have made such a self-destructive creature? > > > The problem is sin and human evil. I agree, this is a problem. However, I define sin and evil differently than you do. Unfortunately, because I don't use God as justification for my definitions, you are free to ignore my definitions. > >> If you had, would you give support to individuals who had these >> obvious imperfections even if they attempted to worship you? > > > I'd separate the part of humanity which pleased me and make them holy. Suppose the separation imposed by God is between the humans and the dolphins with the dolphins considered holy, rather than the Christians. Since you don't speak dolphin, how do you know that God is not talking directly to that lifeform? You can see the problem. Why not be humble and acknowledge that we all are still children who know very little about the world or God. Instead of insisting that you are correct, take time to learn about what God wants by observing what God does. Regards, Ed > >> >> peat bogg wrote: >> >>> Mike Carrell wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments for wild space and >>>> connection to Nature. Ironic that TV ads for automobiles seduce with >>>> the lure of access to ever more remote open space. > > > Their agenda is to sell automobiles. > >>> >>> If the population were not so high, the problems described here would >>> not exist. >>> >>> It might make more sense to start thinking about how to lower the >>> population of the world rather than about how to build more power >>> plants. > > > The population size problem is about to correct itself. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 12:15:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KJExSe031501; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:14:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KJEpDc031440; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:14:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:14:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428E3722.4030001 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:14:42 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: God's Creations, formally Re: Lament for space References: <41b624$116559m mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <41b624$116559m mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >>From: Edmund Storms > > > Hi Ed, > > ... > > >>If you were God, would you have made such a >>self-destructive creature? If you had, would >>you give support to individuals who had these >>obvious imperfections even if they attempted >>to worship you? > > > If I were God, I'd give my creations freedom of choice to make good and bad decisions - and more importantly: To learn from the consequences of my own actions. > > Personally, I wouldn't want to play in a sandbox where I wasn't allowed to occasionally make really stupid decisions. Yeah, I sympathize, we may end up blowing up a planet or two in the midst of learning our lessons, but eventually... > > May I suggest that that's precisely what the parable about eating forbidden fruit is all about. I suspect there are many who wish they didn't have this terrifying burden called "freedom of choice". Some wish a Higher Devine Intelligence was constantly calling the shots so that they didn't have to be saddled with the responsibility of having to personally experience the terrible consequences of occasionally making really stupid decisions. Some try to set up various forms of religious doctrine to mimic their desire to run away from making their own decisions. Make up rules and belief structures where God in the absolute sense makes all the decisions - not me! Follow them unquestioningly. Do I feel better now? > > Don't blame God for our inheritance. I agree with you. If I were God I would create a large collection of intelligent lifeforms on this and on various other planets and let evolution sort out which ones will survive. Some will make mistakes that lead to their extinction and others will find the wisdom to prosper and approach my image. Our situation is not yet resolved. While I agree that the various religions describe our condition fairly well, my complaint is with the solution they apply to the problems they find. > > Wait a minute! I AM god. Now that is a very enlightened observation, Steven. The fact is that we were made in our own image, not in God's image. We then make God in our image. As a result, we each are the image of God we each attribute to God. In that sense, we each are god. > > Oh dear! Fasten your seatbelts! I fear we're in for another bumpy ride! Very true, but not just in this discussion. My anger is about the ride that is being imposed upon us by people who are sure they know God's will. On the other hand, I make no claim to know God's will, but I do know the end of the path being proposed. The real problem is that many of these people look forward to having civilization destroyed because they believe this is what God wants and they, because they use the correct method of worship, will survive. This is the worst form of self justification that is usually attributed to insanity when it is observed in an isolated individual. Unfortunately, the attitude becomes an accepted religion when it is believed by enough people. Regards, Ed > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 12:17:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KJGdSe032654; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:16:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KJGZni032624; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:16:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:16:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428E3792.2030409 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:16:34 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lament for space References: <2.2.32.20050520172211.009723a4 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050520172211.009723a4 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > At 08:34 am 20/05/2005 -0600, Ed wrote: > >> >>Good suggestion. However the self-interest of the various religions get >>in the way. If you can't convert, at least you can out-breed. > > > Absolutely - and the outbreeders will inherit the earth. 8-) > > > >>If God made us, he did a lousy job. > > > Speak for yourself, Ed. When I look at my fifty grandchildren I think > he did a most excellent job. Yes indeed, in this case I'm sure he did and excellent job. It is only because a few such people are born that our lifeform has survived this long. But, I look around me and I see that a large number of very imperfect individuals who are supporting decisions that will kill us all, all in the name of God. > > > >>He made a lifeform that insists on believing things >>that are clearly in conflict with reality, and will kill or give up its >>own life to support these beliefs. A lifeform, to a large extent, that >>lacks empathy for his own kind and for the other lifeforms made by this >>God. A lifeform that has the conceit to believe that it is unique and >>will gain advantage over other individuals by using a particular worship >>of this imagined God. At the same time, we have the ability to discover >>methods to visit the stars while other people will turn this knowledge >>into weapons that will be used to destroy anyone who does not support >>their beliefs. If you were God, would you have made such a >>self-destructive creature? If you had, would you give support to >>individuals who had these obvious imperfections even if they attempted >>to worship you? > > > > What a sad spiel. A wail of despair. > Life coming to an end and nothing > to look forward to. Perhaps, but we are approaching a cross roads. The choice will determine how much despair is justified. Meanwhile, I have to admit that life for me is good, as I'm sure it is for you as well, Grimer. We just can't afford to look too far in the future. Ed > > Grimer > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 12:38:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KJcGjn009652; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:38:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KJcDQX009625; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:38:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:38:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520133339.03e75b00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:43:14 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Lament for space In-Reply-To: References: <02b201c55cae$c61fb9c0$3657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <428CFE33.3060404 teksavvy.com> <428DF561.1020908 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> No, the answer is a change in attitude. > >No, the problem is human evil Human nature has not changed, and people are as evil as ever -- as we see in Iraq -- yet in most of the world our lives are unimaginably easier and better, and the chances of being killed by war or crime is far lower than it used to be. So what has changed? Not much really. The list is short: science, democratic governments, capitalism, and a moderate improvement in technology caused all of this. (Note: I call the improvement in technology "moderate" because any educated scientist living in the last 400 years would understand most of our gadgets. We have not yet achieved Arthur Clarke's "sufficiently advanced technology" that looks like magic -- except for radios, nuclear power and microprocessors.) >We believe that sentient life, with free will is unique to this planetary >system. Who is we, and what basis do we have for that belief? It is absurd. Every analysis I have seen indicates that intelligent life is probably common throughout the universe, in stars in the periphery of galaxies (but not in the center). It is even possible that life arose on Mars, right next door, since there were vast amounts of water there. >The population size problem is about to correct itself. Yup. Thanks to science, medicine, contraceptives, social reform and education for women the population is stabilizing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 13:02:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KK22jn025082; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:02:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KK1qIj025010; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:01:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:01:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520153619.03e82eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:01:05 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Solar tower plan I could live with Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have to agree this solar tower plan is intriguing, and as Steve Johnson says a tower would be an awe-inspiring sight. As I said before one or two towers per state would not bother me. In some states I would welcome them, especially if the land under the "skirt" could be used for agriculture. Approximately 2,500 of these towers would be enough to supply all US electricity. As I said yesterday, there is no point to developing a large-scale expensive device like this if you are going to use it to generate less than 1% of electricity, but it would make sense if we are going generate, say, 10% or more. We might replace nuclear power reactors as they grow old (20% of electricity), or coal reactors as soon as we can (50%). Perhaps a sensible plan would be to use a mixture of solar towers, wind turbines, next-generation nuclear plants, and gas-fired plants. I expect the nuclear plants would be the most expensive per MW of capacity. Gas-fired plants would be needed because they can be turned on the quickly, unlike the other three. It would be awfully nice if the embodied energy in photovoltaic devices could be reduced, and the price per KW fell. I would hate to see a solar tower erected someplace like Georgia or Maryland, covering over a vast area of verdant countryside. On the other hand, there are many hot, arid places such as Las Vegas, Nevada, or Baghdad, Iraq where the surrounding countryside is not so inviting, and where they need the electricity and they could make good use of gigantic greenhouse, to save water. A few thousand solar towers erected in places like that would certainly be a boon. The visual pollution I described yesterday would not be a problem. You could not make the skyscape at Las Vegas look any worse. Perhaps they could be scaled up to 1000 MW in one location. (With 5 chimneys perhaps?). In that case you would need ~20 of them to generate all of the electricity in the state of Nevada, which is a reasonable number. Seven would be enough to replace all of the coal, petroleum and gas fired generators, which is even more reasonable. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/arizona.pdf Of course we would not want to cover up all the desert because many species live there and many people enjoy the desert landscape and the wide open empty space. As I said before, moderation in all things. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 13:27:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KKQUjn009611; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:26:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KKQFeY009326; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:26:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:26:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01fe01c55d7a$23288ae0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050520175547.RAJ24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [OT] Texas Jones and the Lost Ark Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:25:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An interesting story at first glance... until one digs a little deeper, Terry. > He doesn't remind me of Harrison Ford: http://www.vendyljones.org.il/vendyl.htm Nada bit. Looks a lot like Yoda, thougth...dog ugly and just plain wierd... if the ears were more pointy he would be a dead-ringer. Reminds me more of a cracked-pot than a real archaelogist. BTW "achur" in Hebrew does mean "ugly" and hopefully he will consider making it his permanet home, and never come back to civilization. Maybe that degree of dedicatied wierdness comes with the territory. Oops, sorry Richard, but I was refering to the surname, not the great state of Texas... or as we like to say in May-he-co, Tay-hoss. Texas Monthly reported that "Lucas and Spielberg say they never heard of Vendyl Jones" adding that George wrote the story in 1973, which predates any mention of Vendyl in the press, or those BS claims, by four years... the real inspiration for the name Indiana Jones? ... the character's name came from Lucas's dog, "Indiana"... with him as he wrote the story but now being cloned in South Korea. The best thing that can be said about this nut-case Vendyl, babtist-turned-noahide, is the seemingly insightful (anywhere **else** but Israel) quote: "Then I made the mistake of asking permission to do it. That was before I learned that in Israel is a lot like heaven - it is a lot easier to get forgiveness than it is permission." Yup...but a lot easier to get shot in Israel than get forgivenss - one might add, which might be the only cure for that high-degree of ingrained stupidity. Signed, Calexico Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 13:29:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KKTCjn011954; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:29:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KKT9Ji011929; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:29:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:29:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428E4896.4010203 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:29:10 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: RE: Lament for space References: <000001c55d66$311f4f30$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> In-Reply-To: <000001c55d66$311f4f30$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > Interesting perspective. Only thing I see missing is the understanding that > there is a duality plan to everything. Reflect on the rational for God to > create and permit the continued existence of an anti-God. We are not > flawed, we are given equal choice to participate in whichever side of the > duality we want (for whatever reason we want). To understand good, one has > to recognize evil. I agree John, however "good" can be defined as that which promotes life, happiness, and the advancement of knowledge, while "evil" is the opposite. The problem with religion is that evil is defined as that which opposes the religious beliefs. As a result, the definition creates them against us. > > I know there have been many theological exchanges lately on Vortex. I am > conflicted on participating in this one as I am NOT a big fan of them on > this list. The ONLY reason I am even bothering to reply is that I think it > is important to point out that 'God' and 'Religion' are 2 different things > and that they are typically misrepresented as 1 thing. That > misrepresentation is the source of all theological discord. I agree. I prefer to make a distinction between religion and spiritually, as you do However, to express ideas to people who argue from a religious background, it is necessary to use the work God, because that is what they understand. > > Religion is a creation of man used since the beginning of time for the > perpetual sustenance and growth of a given population. It seeks to idealize > and manage behavior characteristics and limited resources to that end. The > exact expression or personification of the 'god' element is largely > irrelevant. The problem is that how to sustain and grow a population is an > OPINION based on very specific inputs and environmental conditions of a > region and time period. When the relevance of specific elements of that > strategy become obsolete, change is hamstrung by the application of the > 'god' element to maintain control over the system as a whole. Understanding > the 'why' of any particular doctrine is as simple as deconstructing and > analyzing the issue or policy as to how it relates to the underlying theme > of perpetual sustenance and growth... Buddha, the Koran, the Bible, Roman & > Greek Pathos, Cults, etc. > > To that end... > > Topics of 'Religion' I think have some relevance on Vortex because they deal > with social architecture, history, and cultural bias. Those things have > direct impact our individual motivations, successes, and failures. That is my view as well and is the only reason I bother to contribute my ideas. Increasingly, policy in the US is being shaped by religious attitudes, which makes such discussions important to everyone. > > Topics of 'God' have no relevance on Vortex because they are a personal > expression of our individual perspective and PREFERENCE. True, but the word can also be used as a generic idea in order to make a point. Regards, Ed > > > > -john > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 9:34 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Lament for space > > > Good suggestion. However the self-interest of the various religions get > in the way. If you can't convert, at least you can out-breed. As for > the present situation, nature and the tendency of mankind to support war > will eventually take care of the excess. No, the answer is a change in > attitude. If even the slightest imagination and intelligence were used, > many more people could live very well in even the most populated > countries. We do not lack space, we lack common sense. If God made us, > he did a lousy job. He made a lifeform that insists on believing things > that are clearly in conflict with reality, and will kill or give up its > own life to support these beliefs. A lifeform, to a large extent, that > lacks empathy for his own kind and for the other lifeforms made by this > God. A lifeform that has the conceit to believe that it is unique and > will gain advantage over other individuals by using a particular worship > of this imagined God. At the same time, we have the ability to discover > methods to visit the stars while other people will turn this knowledge > into weapons that will be used to destroy anyone who does not support > their beliefs. If you were God, would you have made such a > self-destructive creature? If you had, would you give support to > individuals who had these obvious imperfections even if they attempted > to worship you? > > Ed > > peat bogg wrote: > > >>Mike Carrell wrote: >> >> >>>Jed and Ed have voiced eloquent laments for wild space and connection >>>to Nature. Ironic that TV ads for automobiles seduce with the lure of >>>access to ever more remote open space. >>> >>>We've gots lots of people and more on the way. They will need to make >>>a living. Doing what? Living where? >>> >>>Jed's elegy for beautiful Japan is a case in point. Pave over >>>paradise >>>to provide work. >>> >>>Our technical society removes drudgery, more goods for less work, so >>>we can ????? >>> >>>Have we lost our way, or is this a passing phase? >>> >>>No answers, just questions. >>> >>>Mike Carrell >> >> >>If the population were not so high, the problems described here would >>not exist. >> >>It might make more sense to start thinking about how to lower the >>population of the world rather than about how to build more power plants. >> >> > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 13:43:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KKhCjn020416; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:43:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KKh7m8020348; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:43:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:43:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520161602.03e70520 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:42:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: And this *would* solve the energy crisis In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520153619.03e82eb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520153619.03e82eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Perhaps a sensible plan would be to use a mixture of solar towers, wind >turbines, next-generation nuclear plants, and gas-fired plants. . . . It >would be awfully nice if the embodied energy in photovoltaic devices could >be reduced, and the price per KW fell. And as many experts have pointed out, a combination of renewable and nuclear sources like this *can* solve the energy crisis. As you can see from the numbers for wind turbines, PV, solar towers and so on there is enough renewable energy on earth, and it would not take up inordinate amounts of space. Also, as you see in the Lawrence Livermore graph I posted last month, it would take only a moderate increase in renewable energy to power all transportation as well as electricity, because any new system (hydrogen or electricity) would be far more efficient than conventional gasoline ICE. See: http://lenr-canr.org/EnergyOverview.pdf All the handwringing in the newspapers about the energy crisis is misguided. The New York Times claim that "energy independence is an unattainable goal" is ignorant nonsense. We could attain it in 20 years using conventional technology. If we had started 20 years ago, we would be independent already. In fact we would be a paid-up member of OPEC, busy exporting oil and possibly hydrogen to other countries. The problem with all these schemes is not technical or engineering. The problem is that they would cost a terrific amount of money -- perhaps as much as the war in Iraq. At the drop of a hat, the US will spend $270 billion on a war in Iraq, or $110 billion on the Star Wars missile defense system (I think that is the latest estimate), but we will not spend that kind of money building solar towers, wind turbines, improved PV technology and so on. Needless to say, one of the tremendous advantages cold fusion would have over these conventional systems is that it would cost thousands of times less to implement. It has many other advantages, described in my book. When you talk about "solving" a technical problem you have to remember that some solutions are much better than others. Mainframe computers went a long way to solving many nagging data processing problems in the 1960s. If they had not come along, the airline reservation system and the stock market would have collapsed. But personal computers were a much better solution and they allow us to do far more data processing than anyone imagined in 1965. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 13:57:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KKufjn027911; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:56:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KKud9e027871; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:56:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:56:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <021301c55d7e$62248470$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050520172211.009723a4 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Lament for space Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:56:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" >When I look at my fifty grandchildren I think > he [with a big G] did a most excellent job. And that is NOT (necessarily) an exaggeration Vo as there are thiry-something in the following pic, and one suspects getting the whole aggregation assembled in one time and place is now rather difficult...from an old post, I found this http://www.grimer2.freeserve.co.uk/pge20.htm >Frank definitely wins the prize for the most >grandkids, and a very handsome lot, one must add... >demonstrating once again that one version of "free >energy" has been around for a very long time.... > >Jones > >or as Vergil might have opined, >"tantae molis erat Grimericus condere gentem" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 13:57:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KKurjn028031; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:56:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KKuigv027936; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:56:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:56:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428E4F0C.9080408 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:56:44 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Texas Jones and the Lost Ark References: <20050520175547.RAJ24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <01fe01c55d7a$23288ae0$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <01fe01c55d7a$23288ae0$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9XPoBB.A.O0G.J8kjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > An interesting story at first glance... until one digs a little > deeper, Terry. > >> He doesn't remind me of Harrison Ford: > > http://www.vendyljones.org.il/vendyl.htm > > Nada bit. Looks a lot like Yoda, thougth...dog ugly and just plain > wierd... if the ears were more pointy he would be a dead-ringer. > Reminds me more of a cracked-pot than a real archaelogist. BTW "achur" > in Hebrew does mean "ugly" and hopefully he will consider making it > his permanet home, and never come back to civilization. Now, now. Calm, please. Just because he studied Hebrew in order to better comprehend the words of Jesus (whose words were chronicled entirely in Greek, unless, of course, it turns out that the Copper Scroll has directions to the location of the fabled manuscript of Hebrew Matthew) is no reason to assume he's a cracked pot. And as to comparisons with Indiana Jones ... well, how could anyone forget the moment when Indy explains that the ark was where the ancient Hebrews put the "broken pieces" of the tablets after Moses got po'd and busted them? I guess ol' Indy never got around to reading the next chapter, where it turned out God had indeed saved the file before he logged out so he could just print another copy for Moses. Comparing Indy with a real-world crackpot seems singularly apt. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 14:16:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KLGPki005488; Fri, 20 May 2005 14:16:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KLGNTf005447; Fri, 20 May 2005 14:16:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:16:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Syngas Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 23:16:15 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20050520140048.51148.qmail web51509.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050520140048.51148.qmail web51509.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505202316.15374.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Vorts! When I looked at the lineup up of technologies that they were plugging on that website, and where it was located, I thought that maybe it was being run by that guy in Canada that was building those Brown Gas machines. So... I hit the Contact link, and BOY was I surprised! They couldn't be related could they?! Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 15:14:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KMEUki031726; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:14:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KMESnZ031698; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:14:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:14:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050520221423.00962760 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 23:14:23 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Lament for space Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:56 pm 20/05/2005 -0700, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Grimer" > > >>When I look at my fifty grandchildren I think >> he [with a big G] did a most excellent job. > >And that is NOT (necessarily) an exaggeration Vo as there are >thiry-something in the following pic, and one suspects getting the >whole aggregation assembled in one time and place is now rather >difficult...from an old post, I found this > >http://www.grimer2.freeserve.co.uk/pge20.htm The fiftieth, Maxim (born three days ago) means that my flag now has as many stars as yours. 8-) Cheers Frank ============================== verumtamen quaerite regnum Dei et haec omnia adicientur vobis ============================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 15:31:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4KMVOki007568; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:31:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4KMVLVm007540; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:31:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:31:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428E6572.9050107 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:32:18 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar tower plan I could live with References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520153619.03e82eb0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520153619.03e82eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-zbMh.A.r1B.4UmjCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Of course we would not want to cover up all the desert because many > species live there and many people enjoy the desert landscape and the > wide open empty space. How 'bout all those closed military bases? Better than thinking you can build refineries! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 18:59:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4L1xKki009115; Fri, 20 May 2005 18:59:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4L1xG0d009079; Fri, 20 May 2005 18:59:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:59:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:59:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF53F CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF53F CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 21 May 2005 01:59:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4L1xDki009025 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Fri, 20 May 2005 13:18:24 -0500: Hi, [snip] > > Could low level, pulsed electrolysis of water be >overunity? > > There have been some reports of this happening - >although they have been attributed to measurement errors by skeptics. > > Suppose that, at any given instant, a few, random >water molecules are ready to split apart. They would be momentarily >vunerable > to a pulse splitting them apart - that would contain >less energy than is normally required to achieve electrolysis. [snip] If it were true, why wouldn't it happen just as well under normal electrolysis? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 19:27:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4L2Qjki024012; Fri, 20 May 2005 19:26:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4L2QggP023968; Fri, 20 May 2005 19:26:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:26:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428E9C62.6040102 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 22:26:42 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Name of the Game = "xtopia"? References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428558A1.4000201@bellsouth.net> <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <42860272.4040705@bellsouth.net> <002301c5589e$dfe48660$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <006201c558a7$8bcc1e40$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <006201c558a7$8bcc1e40$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "revtec" quoting A.C.C.'s 1966 letter: > >> There was a more conscious attempt at a Utopia in CHILDHOOD'S END - >> the second part. Incidentally you must also read Huxley's last >> novel, ISLAND(patterned to some extent on Ceylon.) > > >> I don't believe any society can be static - certainly not for as long >> as I postulated in CITY! For my more recent views, see PROFILES OF >> THE FUTURE. > >> I really wrote CITY for fun, as a voyage of exploration. Any >> philosophy is incidental! > > > > First Point. This may not be the first time that some book or work of > art, ostensibly created for "fun," and with "philosophy" relegated to > incidental, will be remembered by posterity primarily for its > philosophical meaning. "Through the Looking Glass" comes to mind as > another, as does "The Matrix"... Whether ACC intended it or not, it has been suggested that the character Vanamonde in CITY foreshadowed a number of items in his later books, including some aspects of the monoliths in 2001 and (perhaps) some of the doings in Childhood's End. It's interesting to note the difference in timelines Clarke postulated for the various intelligences. Vanamonde was on the order of billion years old at the end of the book, and was said to be still a "child". In Childhood's End, the entire race of humans reaches ... uh, puberty? whatever ... at the ripe old age of, say, a million, in round numbers. > > Second Point: I think ACC was going "downhill" and at a rapid speed > with "Profiles", which is scarcely worth a mention, certaninly not a > read. To paraphrase one reviewer: It is confused mixture of propaganda > and techno-utopianism which makes depressing reading compared to the > fiction. Clarke, though, has never been afraid of sounding overly > naďve when overtaken by enthusiasm for the new and unexpected. But > when a distinguished and elderly futurologist says that predictions of > the future are only provisional, he is almost certainly right. If he > says that the opinions expressed "are not my own," he is almost > certainly wrong, and if he hints that his predictions are to be taken > seriously, he is almost certainly not speculating wildly enough. > > Third Point: Realizing that more than a few readers of vortex probably > think that I have gone way overboard with lavish aggrandizement of the > "ulimate meaning" behind the X-box 360, which after all, is "only a > toy"?... err, despite it being a teraflop-capable computer which will > cost ~$300 for something that could easily have sold for 10,000 times > more than that just seven years ago... hey I realize its limitations But all new computer technology today is being harnessed for use as real supercomputers. Casual lashups are the wave of the present, at least; one of the biggest bargains around is supposedly a bushel of Apples (they're quite fast, really, and easy to network). If you can't run xboxes in parallel "out of the box" you can bet the same or similar CPU will be available in a different package soon after and it will be networkable. No, you're not going overboard. The continuing advance in computing power has passed almost anyone's ability to grasp it and there is going to be a lot more fallout than we expect in the next few years, I'm sure. The Central Computer in CITY was, IIRC, a 1000-way parallel machine. (Or perhaps it was "thousands", not "a thousand". whatever) We've already blown 'way past that with the largest Linux clusters ... but then, it's turned out to take more raw power than anyone expected to do convincing AI. Either that, or we've just been falling down terribly on the algorithm end of things. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 19:27:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4L2RMki024444; Fri, 20 May 2005 19:27:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4L2RIJH024401; Fri, 20 May 2005 19:27:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:27:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c55dac$941b6ab0$cf037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: (OT) Texas jones and the Lost Ark Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:27:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01C55D82.AA865870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C55D82.AA865870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones wrote.. Maybe that degree of dedicatied wierdness comes with the=20 territory. Oops, sorry Richard, but I was refering to the surname,=20 not the great state of Texas... or as we like to say in May-he-co,=20 Tay-hoss.=20 No hay differencia en punto! Jones. Few can laugh harder at Texas than Texans. The Aggies print the best = jokes about themselves. Texas is actually a STATE.. a state of mind. One of my defining moments was some years ago outside the small town of = Hebbronville in the brazada country of south Texas where everything = either stinks, stings or sticks. Stopped in the only place open late at night for a cup of coffee. Tiny = cantina, two at the bar, one behind, coffee was thick as syrup. Sat = watching. Two at the bar holding onto longnecks for fear of falling off = their stools. No conversation, just silence. As I looked over to the doorway that would be covered by a board at = closing time I noticed a hand written sign.. "If you spit on the floor at home, do it here , because we want you to = feel at home" Only in Texas.. my kinda place. And what a shame the news cartoonists = can only make fun of "W's" ears when there is so much more to laugh = about in Texas. Granted, we sometimes do forget to keep the fences mended and a few = strays wander out like "Texas" Jones. Just shoo him back in !! Richard ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C55D82.AA865870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF

Jones wrote..
 
Maybe that degree of dedicatied wierdness comes with the =
territory.=20 Oops, sorry Richard, but I was refering to the surname,
not the = great state=20 of Texas... or as we like to say in May-he-co,
Tay-hoss.
 
No hay differencia en punto! = Jones.
 
Few can laugh harder at Texas than = Texans. The=20 Aggies print the best jokes about themselves. Texas is actually a  = STATE..=20 a state of mind.
 
One of my defining moments was some = years ago=20 outside the small town of Hebbronville in the brazada country of south = Texas=20 where everything either stinks, stings or sticks.
 
Stopped in the only place open late = at night for=20 a cup of coffee. Tiny cantina, two at the bar, one behind, coffee was = thick as=20 syrup. Sat  watching. Two at the bar holding onto longnecks for = fear of=20 falling off their stools. No conversation, just silence.
As I looked over to the doorway that = would be=20 covered by a board at closing time  I noticed a hand written=20 sign..
 
"If you spit on the floor at home, do = it here ,=20 because we want you to feel at home"
 
Only in Texas.. my kinda place. And = what a shame=20 the news cartoonists can only make fun of "W's" ears when there is so = much more=20 to laugh about in Texas.
 
Granted, we sometimes do forget to = keep the=20 fences mended and a few strays wander out like=20 "Texas" Jones.
 Just shoo him back in = !!
 
Richard


 
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C55D82.AA865870-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 19:54:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4L2s5PW009708; Fri, 20 May 2005 19:54:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4L2s4fY009680; Fri, 20 May 2005 19:54:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:54:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004901c55db0$5559c160$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050513210838.MGMK2562.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <005801c5581c$b94a9ad0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428558A1.4000201@bellsouth.net> <00b501c5582f$490b1f20$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <42860272.4040705@bellsouth.net> <002301c5589e$dfe48660$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <006201c558a7$8bcc1e40$6401a8c0@NuDell> <428E9C62.6040102@pobox.com> Subject: Re: New Name of the Game = "xtopia"? Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:53:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen Lawrence writes, > We've already blown 'way past that with the largest Linux > clusters ... but then, it's turned out to take more raw power > than anyone expected to do convincing AI. Either that, or > we've just been falling down terribly on the algorithm end of > things. Or perhaps, once we get any coherent software package to the level where it can do its own learning, as Cyc is about to do, then we will all be very surprised to see how fast it grows-up on its own. I don't think the problem is us falling down on the algorithm end, so much as not knowing what the minimum requirements are, and then just letting a minimal machine rip through the internet. Cyc is way too complex IMHO. In a few years we will probably realize that we could have done it with much less. Most experts I have talked say that speech recognition has been the hold-up... not so much the actual sound waves-to-words but the parsing and assignment of various levels of meaning and the framing of proper assumptions. This is all falling into place now. The next few years should be extraordinarily interesting in the AI field... FINALLY. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 21:57:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4L4vFPW005587; Fri, 20 May 2005 21:57:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4L4vDDb005571; Fri, 20 May 2005 21:57:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:57:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005562145712840 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 20, 2005 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:57:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8dfa3a20fcb7723830525c0948bbf8ea4666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.85.119 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 5/20/2005 2:26:00 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 20, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 20 May 05 Washington, DC 1. MIRACLES? I DON'T THINK SO. NBC DATELINE IS NOT SO SURE. Dateline's investigative reporters traveled around the world exploring claims of divine intervention, and Wednesday night they shared their findings with us in a program called "Miracle." It was an hour program, but it seemed much longer. I thought a trip to the bathroom might help. It took a few minutes after I got back before I realized "Miracles" had ended. Who could tell? It was now "Revelations" -- something about an astrophysicist and a cute nun trying to prevent "the end of days." Oh well, I didn't miss anything important. Dateline found that there are things that no one has explained. Amazing! What have those scientists been doing? Viewers were in front of their TVs ready to learn something, and there was something terribly important for them to learn. But they weren't told that not a single miracle has ever been verified. They were left to believe that the existence of miracles is an open scientific question. Has NBC no shame? 2. LOS ALAMOS: BIDDING OPENS FOR MANAGEMENT OF THE LABORATORY. Competition is wide open amid concerns that a changing culture at the Lab would threaten scientific and technical excellence. The new model seems to be a university/defense contractor team. Three teams are expected to bid: The University of Texas teamed with Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman with an academic teammate yet to be named, and the University of California, which managed the Lab for 62 years by itself, now teamed with Bechtel Corp. 3. EAST IS EAST AND WEST IS WEST, AND NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET. Several news accounts this week commented on an apparent rise in the surface of "eastern Antarctica," due to increased snow and ice accumulation, as predicted by climate models. But which side is "eastern" Antarctica? Clearly, every side of Antarctica must be "northern" Antarctica. 4. EVOLUTION: SO IS IT TRUE THAT CHARLES DARWIN WAS A DEMOCRAT? Dover, PA, school board candidates could run in both Republican and Democratic primaries. On Tuesday, seven incumbents who support a policy requiring high school biology students to be told about "intelligent design," won the Republican primary. Meanwhile, seven challengers, all of whom oppose mentioning "intelligent design" in science class, won in the Democratic primary. The school board election will be held in November. 5. KANSAS: IS "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" SCIENCE? DEFINE "SCIENCE." The plan was to sell ID as science. Nobody bought it. So now there's a move on the Kansas School Board to redefine "science" as "a systematic method of continuing investigation." Yes, I know. But it won't help anyway. Courts have ruled that ID is religion. So what Kansas needs is a new definition of religion. How about: "A way of explaining why it wasn't really your fault." THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 20 22:28:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4L5RcPW019061; Fri, 20 May 2005 22:27:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4L5RaKY019026; Fri, 20 May 2005 22:27:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 22:27:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=SQ8fF6AUVvxb4vA5BDMSIoMofxONrfiKhpE0KYVjEof50gKyfPGBuEpb3okKMVb9yasdFQ71wZVj3Trmg0KZeOwGzTNmkIM03z0LeQpQL4s/CIv5NOXUFL//MjJcLcDaTDRsl9yVCsYS5IEx9Zrqk0P9+FGQs0KwgG8ETLhPw9c= ; Message-ID: <20050521052723.8538.qmail web51505.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 22:27:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Syngas - Now I know it is a plasma system To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-673638970-1116653243=:8533" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-673638970-1116653243=:8533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What an Amazing coincidence. Team member at Fairchild International Corp., Mr. Wilf Ouellette contacted me several years ago about my plasma system. My proposal was for Converting oil and organics into syngas. Wilf, under the guise of working as a consultant for an Oil Company was very interested in my technology. I bet I can even identify each component function of this Canadian Syngas system without any help, because the whole system looks very familiar to me. It looks like my proposed system, however only a look inside will tell for sure - but I am positive it is Plasma based. I am not surprised Wilf (a Canadian) believed me - the question is, when will my fellow Americans? Warmest Regards, Chris Arnold http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 Michael Huffman wrote: Moin Vorts! When I looked at the lineup up of technologies that they were plugging on that website, and where it was located, I thought that maybe it was being run by that guy in Canada that was building those Brown Gas machines. So... I hit the Contact link, and BOY was I surprised! They couldn't be related could they?! Knuke --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. --0-673638970-1116653243=:8533 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
What an Amazing coincidence. Team member at Fairchild International Corp., Mr. Wilf Ouellette contacted me several years ago about my plasma system. My proposal was for Converting oil and organics into syngas. Wilf, under the guise of working as a consultant for an Oil Company was very interested in my technology. 
 
I bet I can even identify each component function of this Canadian Syngas system without any help, because the whole system looks very familiar to me. It looks like my proposed system, however only a look inside will tell for sure - but I am positive it is Plasma based.
 
I am not surprised Wilf (a Canadian) believed me - the question is, when will my fellow Americans?

Warmest Regards,

Chris Arnold

http://members.aol.com/hypercom59


Michael Huffman <knuke sumosound.de> wrote:
Moin Vorts!

When I looked at the lineup up of technologies that they were plugging on that
website, and where it was located, I thought that maybe it was being run by
that guy in Canada that was building those Brown Gas machines. So... I hit
the Contact link, and BOY was I surprised! They couldn't be related could
they?!

Knuke

Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. --0-673638970-1116653243=:8533-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 06:26:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LDPpPW003404; Sat, 21 May 2005 06:25:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LDPmqL003389; Sat, 21 May 2005 06:25:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:25:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Syngas - Now I know it is a plasma system Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:25:38 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20050521052723.8538.qmail web51505.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050521052723.8538.qmail web51505.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505211525.39530.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Chris, I'm sure you have probably heard of Dr. Santilli. I haven't kept up with the latest, but the last I heard, he was doing pretty well. His website is: http://www.magnegas.com/ Knuke Am Samstag, 21. Mai 2005 07:27 schrieb Christopher Arnold: > What an Amazing coincidence. Team member at Fairchild International Corp., > Mr. Wilf Ouellette contacted me several years ago about my plasma system. > My proposal was for Converting oil and organics into syngas. Wilf, under > the guise of working as a consultant for an Oil Company was very interested > in my technology. > > I bet I can even identify each component function of this Canadian Syngas > system without any help, because the whole system looks very familiar to > me. It looks like my proposed system, however only a look inside will tell > for sure - but I am positive it is Plasma based. > > I am not surprised Wilf (a Canadian) believed me - the question is, when > will my fellow Americans? > > Warmest Regards, > > Chris Arnold > > http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 > > Michael Huffman wrote: > Moin Vorts! > > When I looked at the lineup up of technologies that they were plugging on > that website, and where it was located, I thought that maybe it was being > run by that guy in Canada that was building those Brown Gas machines. So... > I hit the Contact link, and BOY was I surprised! They couldn't be related > could they?! > > Knuke > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 08:28:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LFRrPW017623; Sat, 21 May 2005 08:27:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LFRpfL017603; Sat, 21 May 2005 08:27:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 08:27:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004801c55e19$a35b9a50$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: K-shell is where its hap'nin' Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 08:27:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <365-LD.A._SE.2N1jCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Or...the Mason's have many secrets, and so do the mesons. Control over electron-spin states in the "active particulate" for LENR, especially as coherent manipulation of operating variables at the terahertz frequency range, appears to be an under-appreciated control method in getting consistent results. Regular pulsation at this high frequency (hopefully near-coherence) may be responsible for pushing D ions just the "right distance" into the inner orbitals of the host matrix, so that there is a greatly enhanced probability for QM tunneling or catalyzed fusion. Now thanks to "King George" (Miley) we know exactly where (how far into the Pd atomic shell) that distance is. In effect, at the close scale of nanometers --> picometers, many forms of LENR may resemble a finer-scale version of sonofusion - except that the active particulate is a tiny solid sphere of "condensed matter" perhaps a few hundred atoms, and with an active core of a single Pd atom. Many deuterons converge at this one location, due to spherical convergence. As such, the end results of CF should be amenable to approximately 10^7 greater output power than water-based sonofusion (based on the higher frequency). No wonder the latest efforts in SF research are hybrids where palladium is added to the fluid. A once-secretive researcher in the area is Roger Stringham of First Gate Energies, who has lately presented several posters at the International Conferences on Cold Fusion. See his abstract for March 2003 and later and his patent application US20020090047A1. This could be an important patent, if granted, but I know for a fact that prior IP from other experimenters makes similar claims - that is- for sonofusion augmented by Pd. IMHO they should just dispense with any liquid altogether, and align multiple transducers right onto a target of fully loaded metal. Here is the excellent summary of the field on a web-site mentioned by Jed recently: http://members.nuvox.net/~on.jwclymer/snf/ But there is another curious fact which may lead to a better understanding of the overall dynamics. Looking at the similarity between LENR and K-shell capture radioactivity leads to appreciation that both reactions occur at nuclear distances of picometers with reaction probability times of megaseconds... coincidental? Well, first of all, the possibility that the LENR reaction rate is limited by *megaseconds* may at first sound discouraging until you realize that active sites in even a small cell, can be on the order of 10^20. Looked at in this way, the megasecond rate is more a throttle than a hindrance. But the similarity is also telling us something about resonance - and suggesting a possible way to speed up the effective reaction rate, which in the past is more like gigaseconds/active site. Consider a static electric field... in it, an accelerating charged particle (e-)traveling at near light speed will actually perceive the field as electromagnetic, not just electrostatic. Two electrons traveling together at near light speed are consequently both attracted and repelled. If this is not the basis behind the "spintronics" area of R&D, then this phenomenon of balanced repulsive/attractive forces is an important part of that emerging field. But spintronics cannot offer any help to explain how the Coulomb barrier between two D nuclei can be shielded when within a metal matrix, however... in 1989 another Jones took care of that problem ....the meson. But what its it about the inner electrons of a Pd atom that seems to provide this shielding and/or catalyzation of fusion, and/or present an enhanced probability for QM tunneling. There aren't any real mesons there, are there? A tentative answer is in the wind... The provocative paper of Hora, Miley et al. "Low Energy Nuclear Reactions resulting as picometer interactions with similarity to K-Shell electron capture," given at the Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France. http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HoraHlowenergyna.pdf has been mentioned before, and one key concept from it this **similarity of CF to K-Shell electron capture.** Where does that leave us? Well first of all, we must keep in mind that there are always two K-shell electrons traveling on similar trajectories in all atoms (except hydrogen) and in the mid-z atoms like Pd, these duets are moving pretty fast, the binding energy being 24.35 keV. And now that we know (or suspect we know) where it is, within the spatial confines of the Pd atomic shell, that fusion actually occurs, can we perhaps take it one-step further than Miley, et al, dare to do BTW, that guy named Al, he sure gets around, don'e? Is there any significance to this particular binding energy, ~24 keV? And if so does it point to the shielding methodology? Yes, or should I say: "perhaps" and stay tuned. We may now be onto something on Vortex that even the great Miley has overlooked, or else we are about to steal a bit of his thunder... Jones Hint...and with a little dramatization, imagine Mr. Robinson, advising young Benjamin Braddock, recent physics graduate at Montclair state... "son, I just have two words of advice for you"... ta-da... a plaintive S&G duet starts playing in the background... "virtual mesons" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 08:39:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LFdKPW022611; Sat, 21 May 2005 08:39:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LFdHSv022588; Sat, 21 May 2005 08:39:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 08:39:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=fFivAmpJG73yPRGenlxDgraEoDMmLilXcCPbulHr1oBtU/oHF5h4jt1rtVBp/bQDsaKzOd/rEzXxUqCBt9eSapQZIr85nTuQFzsjvShK8Vrt5jcArd1Ik7a1A8Yem3PiwJrpmJcmIebDnpQdL2wVOi9Sks/3coVFRvLGjjzMtCM= ; Message-ID: <20050521153909.94937.qmail web51507.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 08:39:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Syngas - Now I know it is a plasma system To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1079925673-1116689949=:90608" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1079925673-1116689949=:90608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Michael, Wilf is "claiming" to have designed (but not invented) this companies particular "Revolutionary" Plasma reactor - Santilli's is NOT revolutionary but it is effective. "Mr. Ouellette is not only the designer of but has in addition spearheaded the development of the Gas Generation System" What Wilf, no patent - or didn't you need one to turn a quick profit AH? If this reactor was provided by Santilli, and Wilf is claiming to have designed it, I will bet $100 that Santilli already has (or will within 7 days) court papers in transit for the misrepresentation and omission of the Santilli name. I don't find it funny that Wilf had no idea how my Plasma patent could possibly work, when I explained (to Wilf) in detail the operation of this New System in October of 2002, and provided the patent information. He was working with Aclade Energy in Alberta and GenOil at the time, right next to these phone numbers is his cell number. And progress marches on in Canada while the USA sleeps peacefully, unaware of scientific developments that could improve life for our children. Warmest Regards, Chris Arnold Michael Huffman wrote: Moin Chris, I'm sure you have probably heard of Dr. Santilli. I haven't kept up with the latest, but the last I heard, he was doing pretty well. His website is: http://www.magnegas.com/ Knuke Am Samstag, 21. Mai 2005 07:27 schrieb Christopher Arnold: > What an Amazing coincidence. Team member at Fairchild International Corp., > Mr. Wilf Ouellette contacted me several years ago about my plasma system. > My proposal was for Converting oil and organics into syngas. Wilf, under > the guise of working as a consultant for an Oil Company was very interested > in my technology. > > I bet I can even identify each component function of this Canadian Syngas > system without any help, because the whole system looks very familiar to > me. It looks like my proposed system, however only a look inside will tell > for sure - but I am positive it is Plasma based. > > I am not surprised Wilf (a Canadian) believed me - the question is, when > will my fellow Americans? > > Warmest Regards, > > Chris Arnold > > http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 > > Michael Huffman wrote: > Moin Vorts! > > When I looked at the lineup up of technologies that they were plugging on > that website, and where it was located, I thought that maybe it was being > run by that guy in Canada that was building those Brown Gas machines. So... > I hit the Contact link, and BOY was I surprised! They couldn't be related > could they?! > > Knuke > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour --0-1079925673-1116689949=:90608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Michael,
 
Wilf is "claiming" to have designed (but not invented) this companies particular "Revolutionary" Plasma reactor - Santilli's is NOT revolutionary but it is effective. "Mr. Ouellette is not only the designer of but has in addition spearheaded the development of the Gas Generation System" What Wilf, no patent - or didn't you need one to turn a quick profit AH?
 
If this reactor was provided by Santilli, and Wilf is claiming to have designed it, I will bet $100 that Santilli already has (or will within 7 days) court papers in transit for the misrepresentation and omission of the Santilli name. I don't find it funny that Wilf had no idea how my Plasma patent could possibly work, when I explained (to Wilf) in detail the operation of this New System in October of 2002, and provided the patent information. He was working with Aclade Energy in Alberta and GenOil at the time, right next to these phone numbers is his cell number.
And progress marches on in Canada while the USA sleeps peacefully, unaware of scientific developments that could improve life for our children.
 
Warmest Regards,
Chris Arnold

Michael Huffman <knuke sumosound.de> wrote:
Moin Chris,

I'm sure you have probably heard of Dr. Santilli. I haven't kept up with the
latest, but the last I heard, he was doing pretty well. His website is:

http://www.magnegas.com/

Knuke

Am Samstag, 21. Mai 2005 07:27 schrieb Christopher Arnold:
> What an Amazing coincidence. Team member at Fairchild International Corp.,
> Mr. Wilf Ouellette contacted me several years ago about my plasma system.
> My proposal was for Converting oil and organics into syngas. Wilf, under
> the guise of working as a consultant for an Oil Company was very interested
> in my technology.
>
> I bet I can even identify each component function of this Canadian Syngas
> system without any help, because the whole system looks very familiar to
> me. It looks like my proposed system, however only a look inside will tell
> for sure - but I am positive it is Plasma based.
>
> I am not surprised Wilf (a Canadian) believed me - the question is, when
> will my fellow Americans?
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Chris Arnold
>
> http://members.aol.com/hypercom59
>
> Michael Huffman wrote:
> Moin Vorts!
>
> When I looked at the lineup up of technologies that they were plugging on
> that website, and where it was located, I thought that maybe it was being
> run by that guy in Canada that was building those Brown Gas machines. So...
> I hit the Contact link, and BOY was I surprised! They couldn't be related
> could they?!
>
> Knuke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour --0-1079925673-1116689949=:90608-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 09:17:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LGGXPW005082; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LGGU0m005045; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,126,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="311627311:sNHT14538584" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Lament for space Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:16:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, I will skip most of your comments in order to focus on one particular belief system you felt compelled to reveal. > We believe that sentient life, with free will is unique to this > planetary system. As for an advantage, it's quite the opposite. When my widower dad first introduced me to his delightful new ladyfrind (who soon became his second wife) I soon learned that she had seen a flying saucer in her childhood. She was about 10 to 12 years old at the time and living up in Canada. It occurred around 1946-47 . She and few of her family members witnessed a classic saucer-shaped vehicle hover over a row of houses in her neighborhood. It was estimated to be approximately 30 - 45 feet in diameter. It was the classic bowl on-top-of inverted bowl shape. She even saw port holes running along the outer diameter. Eventually it flew off to do whatever it is that flying saucers do. She told me about her close observation because she was aware of the fact that I'm an artist that has on occasion painted UFOs. She thought I might find her account interesting, and indeed, I did. What also interested me was the fact that to this day she continues to have no overt interest in UFOs, flying saucers or science fiction themes. Her life did not change for the better, or for the worst for her experience. It was simply an unforgettable observation of something she and some of her family members witnessed one day. Curiously, her own mother never wanted to talk about it afterwards. Another elder family member who witnessed the object nervously speculated that it was likely some kind of secret government project and that it was best if they didn't talk about it anymore. The hum-drum of life pretty much went on for my step mom. Her observation certainly didn't destroy her perception of way the world was put together nor her desire to continue to go to church. She continued growing up as a catholic. I envied her. I wished I had seen what she had seen. ALL those UFOs I've painted in my life and, DANG, NOT ONE have I ever seen with my own eyes! Why do they stay up there - IGNORING ME? Why don't they just come down for a spell and have a chat with me. Come! Sit on the front porch for a spell. I'll get some lemonade. But then I see your comments, specifically your belief about "sentient life" and then I realize: Why in the hell would ANY of them want to come down and chat with any of us for a spell. Certainly not with you. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 09:17:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LGGwPW005226; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:17:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LGGcam005129; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,126,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="311627353:sNHT15094684" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: OT: God's Creations, formally Re: Lament for space Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:16:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <428E3722.4030001 ix.netcom.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed, I'm just getting around to reading my back log of Vortex messages. I'm sure I'll have more to say shortly. ... > I agree with you. If I were God I would create a large collection of > intelligent lifeforms on this and on various other planets and let > evolution sort out which ones will survive. Some will make mistakes that > lead to their extinction and others will find the wisdom to prosper and > approach my image. Our situation is not yet resolved. While I agree > that the various religions describe our condition fairly well, my > complaint is with the solution they apply to the problems they find. > > > > Wait a minute! I AM god. > > Now that is a very enlightened observation, Steven. Oh, I rarely feel THAT enlightened! ;-) > The fact is that we > were made in our own image, not in God's image. We then make God in our > image. As a result, we each are the image of God we each attribute to > God. In that sense, we each are god. I dare say this is a discussion on the refinement of perception that could go on for months. It is questionable whether vortex is the place to continue it even though I bare considerable responsibility for bringing it to the forefront of this group. If so, my apologies to the collective membership. I will only add that God may not be that far away from our hearts and minds. I doubt you are in disagreement with me on that premise. > > Oh dear! Fasten your seatbelts! I fear we're in for another bumpy ride! > > Very true, but not just in this discussion. My anger is about the ride > that is being imposed upon us by people who are sure they know God's > will. On the other hand, I make no claim to know God's will, but I do > know the end of the path being proposed. The real problem is that many > of these people look forward to having civilization destroyed because > they believe this is what God wants and they, because they use the > correct method of worship, will survive. This is the worst form of self > justification that is usually attributed to insanity when it is observed > in an isolated individual. Unfortunately, the attitude becomes an > accepted religion when it is believed by enough people. > > Regards, > Ed > > I understand you frustration as well. While I'm sure I freely chose to to play in this sandbox it did not give me the right to chose who will be playing along side with me. The holes I occasionally see and/or feel my plamates dig for themselves... sometimes it feels so pointless. It vexes me too. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 09:17:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LGGiPW005168; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LGGYq4005079; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,126,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="311627330:sNHT14977624" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Solar tower plan I could live with Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:16:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520153619.03e82eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell ... > > I have to agree this solar tower plan is intriguing, and as Steve Johnson > says a tower would be an awe-inspiring sight. As I said before one or two > towers per state would not bother me. In some states I would > welcome them, > especially if the land under the "skirt" could be used for agriculture. I'll say it again that I'm not absolutely married to the solar tower idea. Obviously careful studying of the total impact on the environment is absolutely necessary Just clarify one more time, I was, focusing on discussing the sociological factors or feasibility of whether it would be worthwhile to initiate a national goal similar to the undertaking of the Apollo Moon project. What I was trying to get at is that when the nation is sufficiently focused on a specific goal we are capable of moving mountains. We have done so in the past, and we can do it again. So much time and energy is waited in pointless infighting and bickering. It seemed to me that instigating a national project of building these "solar towers could help unite the country under on focused goal of achieving energy self-sufficiency. The web link you supplied certainly appears to be enthusiastic about what they are attempting to do. And I finally got a graphic of a solar tower. If I have enough time in the future I may attempt to illustrate a high resolution digital painting of one of these structures myself. In the meantime, I hope they succeed. Would be interesting to see if the real thing delivers what the simulations claim. > Approximately 2,500 of these towers would be enough to supply all US > electricity. As I said yesterday, there is no point to developing a > large-scale expensive device like this if you are going to use it to > generate less than 1% of electricity, but it would make sense if we are > going generate, say, 10% or more. We might replace nuclear power reactors > as they grow old (20% of electricity), or coal reactors as soon as we can > (50%). Perhaps a sensible plan would be to use a mixture of solar towers, > wind turbines, next-generation nuclear plants, and gas-fired plants. I > expect the nuclear plants would be the most expensive per MW of capacity. > Gas-fired plants would be needed because they can be turned on > the quickly, > unlike the other three. It would be awfully nice if the embodied > energy in > photovoltaic devices could be reduced, and the price per KW fell. > > I would hate to see a solar tower erected someplace like Georgia or > Maryland, covering over a vast area of verdant countryside. On the other > hand, there are many hot, arid places such as Las Vegas, Nevada, or > Baghdad, Iraq where the surrounding countryside is not so inviting, and > where they need the electricity and they could make good use of gigantic > greenhouse, to save water. A few thousand solar towers erected in places > like that would certainly be a boon. The visual pollution I described > yesterday would not be a problem. You could not make the skyscape at Las > Vegas look any worse. Perhaps they could be scaled up to 1000 MW in one > location. (With 5 chimneys perhaps?). In that case you would need ~20 of > them to generate all of the electricity in the state of Nevada, > which is a > reasonable number. Seven would be enough to replace all of the coal, > petroleum and gas fired generators, which is even more reasonable. See: I am in agreement, Jed. If our country ever were to start building these structures careful consideration as to where best to place them would be crucial. I, too, would hate to see one of these towers situated next to the Grand Canyon. > http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/arizona.pdf > > Of course we would not want to cover up all the desert because > many species > live there and many people enjoy the desert landscape and the wide open > empty space. > > As I said before, moderation in all things. Yes, Indeed! Very Buddha of you! > - Jed > Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 09:17:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LGHHPW005371; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:17:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LGGhUV005151; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:16:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,126,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="311627289:sNHT13869540" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: And this *would* solve the energy crisis Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:16:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520161602.03e70520 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > All the handwringing in the newspapers about the energy crisis is > misguided. The New York Times claim that "energy independence is an > unattainable goal" is ignorant nonsense. We could attain it in 20 years > using conventional technology. If we had started 20 years ago, we > would be > independent already. In fact we would be a paid-up member of OPEC, busy > exporting oil and possibly hydrogen to other countries. Insane, indeed. > The problem with all these schemes is not technical or engineering. The > problem is that they would cost a terrific amount of money -- perhaps as > much as the war in Iraq. At the drop of a hat, the US will spend $270 > billion on a war in Iraq, or $110 billion on the Star Wars > missile defense > system (I think that is the latest estimate), but we will not spend that > kind of money building solar towers, wind turbines, improved PV > technology > and so on. > > Needless to say, one of the tremendous advantages cold fusion would have > over these conventional systems is that it would cost thousands of times > less to implement. It has many other advantages, described in my book. > > When you talk about "solving" a technical problem you have to > remember that > some solutions are much better than others. Mainframe computers > went a long > way to solving many nagging data processing problems in the > 1960s. If they > had not come along, the airline reservation system and the stock market > would have collapsed. But personal computers were a much better solution > and they allow us to do far more data processing than anyone > imagined in 1965. > > - Jed What remains mind boggling to me is the fact that even if none of these exotic new forms of energy (CF, ZPE, etc...) ever get developed we STILL could become energy independent in a short period of time, all based on careful extrapolations of technology we are capable of building - all applied to sources of energy we KNOW are available. This continues to suggest to me that the main issue is not a technological one. It is a political problem. Our nation needs another equivalent goal: "To land a man on the moon by the end of the decade..." Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 09:18:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LGHpPW005815; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:17:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LGHjxE005789; Sat, 21 May 2005 09:17:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:17:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=CQkOUfAkWIeXR0nwDGU/MKj7pXVpR/uGLU+RSHJDuwb9PH7v/LdqgohqqPHdqnJP2OcAC7JcbyfOYOYJpUKrJ8pe/yGSlvSpZx2aEgkF1knYeyx/GnG3DxbAFe7D7KHxDJvCxmF7H9oQ+zEj43UXUPRwcHR0Zeg9J69qD6AbPQM= ; Message-ID: <20050521161738.99238.qmail web51503.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:17:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Tapping the ZPF, Gravity A wave or somthing unknown To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <004801c55e19$a35b9a50$6801a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1957483980-1116692258=:98871" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1957483980-1116692258=:98871 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I posted some of this on ZPEnergy, JLN and the Hydrino list - however the posts have not yet posted. One explanation of the following is the direct tapping of the Gravity A wave by ripping atoms apart, which would also account for the transmutations that appeared in analysis. If I can get $30 Million like Dr. Mills, I will show that funding group proof that tremendous amounts of electrical energy "CAN" radiate from a hydrogen plasma, and I can do it NOW. If I can't prove it - they can keep their money. Even though this is a bold offer and a true scientific milestone, I won't hold my breath on a line forming for a demonstration after the escrow deposit. Hydrogen may NOT be necessary to produce the effect as the effect was reproduced in AIR, therefore this MUST be a different effect than Dr. Mills is recording - because the Plasma system is unique and unlike the Mills apparatus. Chris Arnold Non-Detonation Synthesis - Nano Diamond Powder, another First. http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 I first told of this excess energy in a radio interview in 2004, I believe it was - coincidentally just before Dr. Mills published his claim in the same area. In any case, my high energy Plasma and Dr. Mills low energy Plasma are completely different in properties and production methods. Since hydrogen and vacuum are not requirements - it is uniquely different than Dr. Mills work at Black Light Power. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1957483980-1116692258=:98871 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I posted some of this on ZPEnergy, JLN and the Hydrino list - however the posts have not yet posted.
 
One explanation of the following is the direct tapping of the Gravity A wave by ripping atoms apart, which would also account for the transmutations that appeared in analysis.
 
If I can get $30 Million like Dr. Mills, I will show that funding group proof that tremendous amounts of electrical energy "CAN" radiate from a hydrogen plasma, and I can do it NOW. If I can't prove it - they can keep their money. Even though this is a bold offer and a true scientific milestone, I won't hold my breath on a line forming for a demonstration after the escrow deposit.
 
Hydrogen may NOT be necessary to produce the effect as the effect was reproduced in AIR, therefore this MUST be a different effect than Dr. Mills is recording - because the Plasma system is unique and unlike the Mills apparatus.
 
Chris Arnold
Non-Detonation Synthesis - Nano Diamond Powder, another First.
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59
 
I first told of this excess energy in a radio interview in 2004, I believe it was - coincidentally just before Dr. Mills published his claim in the same area. In any case, my high energy Plasma and Dr. Mills low energy Plasma are completely different in  properties and production methods. Since hydrogen and vacuum are not requirements - it is uniquely different than Dr. Mills work at Black Light Power.
 
 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1957483980-1116692258=:98871-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 12:38:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LJc5PW000768; Sat, 21 May 2005 12:38:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LJc0Hb000711; Sat, 21 May 2005 12:38:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:38:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <428F8E14.6090601 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:37:56 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: And this *would* solve the energy crisis References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >>From: Jed Rothwell > > > ... > > >>All the handwringing in the newspapers about the energy crisis is >>misguided. The New York Times claim that "energy independence is an >>unattainable goal" is ignorant nonsense. We could attain it in 20 years >>using conventional technology. If we had started 20 years ago, we >>would be >>independent already. In fact we would be a paid-up member of OPEC, busy >>exporting oil and possibly hydrogen to other countries. > > > Insane, indeed. > > >>The problem with all these schemes is not technical or engineering. The >>problem is that they would cost a terrific amount of money -- perhaps as >>much as the war in Iraq. At the drop of a hat, the US will spend $270 >>billion on a war in Iraq, or $110 billion on the Star Wars >>missile defense >>system (I think that is the latest estimate), but we will not spend that >>kind of money building solar towers, wind turbines, improved PV >>technology >>and so on. >> >>Needless to say, one of the tremendous advantages cold fusion would have >>over these conventional systems is that it would cost thousands of times >>less to implement. It has many other advantages, described in my book. >> >>When you talk about "solving" a technical problem you have to >>remember that >>some solutions are much better than others. Mainframe computers >>went a long >>way to solving many nagging data processing problems in the >>1960s. If they >>had not come along, the airline reservation system and the stock market >>would have collapsed. But personal computers were a much better solution >>and they allow us to do far more data processing than anyone >>imagined in 1965. >> >>- Jed > > > What remains mind boggling to me is the fact that even if none of these > exotic new forms of energy (CF, ZPE, etc...) ever get developed we STILL > could become energy independent in a short period of time, all based on > careful extrapolations of technology we are capable of building - all > applied to sources of energy we KNOW are available. > > This continues to suggest to me that the main issue is not a technological > one. > > It is a political problem. > > Our nation needs another equivalent goal: "To land a man on the moon by the > end of the decade..." Yes Steven, I agree this is what we need. However, how can this approach be brought about? We need a government whose self-interest is not to keep energy cost high and we need a population that will elect people based on their interest in solving such problems rather than stopping stem cell research and killing social security. I predict the problem will be solved after gasoline reaches $5/gal and after Bush and his philosophy have been completely discredited. At that time, people will be so desperate that they will finally listen to reality. Until then, nothing will improve because the special interests presently in power are doing very nicely, thank you. However, they are not the kind of interests that improve our lives. Just consider the situation, the airline industry is going bankrupt, the auto industry is also going down the drain, practically everything for sale is made in China, major pension funds are being wiped out, social security and medicare are in trouble, the national debt is out of control, and we are losing a war that is killing our youth for no obvious benefit. In spite of all these problems, the government is about to shut down, or at least be weakened, because Bush and his gang want a couple of questionable judges. If people don't care about these problems to do something, how would you expect to gain support to solve the energy problem? Regards, Ed > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 13:03:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LK2uPW012949; Sat, 21 May 2005 13:02:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LK2rj6012908; Sat, 21 May 2005 13:02:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:02:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 6508fdeba318374d83548703e6e98424 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050521200241.026B33DCE xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of solar towers, does anyone know why Solar One, which became Solar Two, was decommissioned? It was in Daggett, CA, and was visible from I-15 on your way from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. Steam-on-a-stick, as it was called, seemed to be producing plenty of electricity, so why was it shut down? Political? Economic? What? I used to marvel at the fact that the top of the tower, which was dead black, looked bright white from being at the focal point of all those mirrors. BTW, Jed, I recall reading some years ago about how many plants and animals were thriving under the mirror array on account of the previously unavailable shade. No doubt this would have resulted in a different local ecosystem, but an ecosystem nontheless. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 13:19:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LKJMPW020387; Sat, 21 May 2005 13:19:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LKJKBD020369; Sat, 21 May 2005 13:19:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:19:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jZpGKhWlelI74KthtK1kOP3FU43sLUivJsd4eUkHzXC3QxaAyuy3vp6zwft9xhC/zfYNYtkOV4DSqec3+Hr8Wx5u+wMBdu0KtLtBFNf/ZbT2Z30S7DNVpzAJ1Jdqi7Y/2yacGG+dtbzql709lPoziJReqmzHVgaqviuPQ/euNRU= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:19:13 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: God's Creations, formally Re: Lament for space In-Reply-To: <428E3722.4030001 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <41b624$116559m mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> <428E3722.4030001 ix.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4LKJIPW020336 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: or, to put it more succinctly. jesus, save me from your followers. On 5/20/05, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > orionworks charter.net wrote: > > >>From: Edmund Storms > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > ... > > > > > >>If you were God, would you have made such a > >>self-destructive creature? If you had, would > >>you give support to individuals who had these > >>obvious imperfections even if they attempted > >>to worship you? > > > > > > If I were God, I'd give my creations freedom of choice to make good and bad decisions - and more importantly: To learn from the consequences of my own actions. > > > > Personally, I wouldn't want to play in a sandbox where I wasn't allowed to occasionally make really stupid decisions. Yeah, I sympathize, we may end up blowing up a planet or two in the midst of learning our lessons, but eventually... > > > > May I suggest that that's precisely what the parable about eating forbidden fruit is all about. I suspect there are many who wish they didn't have this terrifying burden called "freedom of choice". Some wish a Higher Devine Intelligence was constantly calling the shots so that they didn't have to be saddled with the responsibility of having to personally experience the terrible consequences of occasionally making really stupid decisions. Some try to set up various forms of religious doctrine to mimic their desire to run away from making their own decisions. Make up rules and belief structures where God in the absolute sense makes all the decisions - not me! Follow them unquestioningly. Do I feel better now? > > > > Don't blame God for our inheritance. > > I agree with you. If I were God I would create a large collection of > intelligent lifeforms on this and on various other planets and let > evolution sort out which ones will survive. Some will make mistakes that > lead to their extinction and others will find the wisdom to prosper and > approach my image. Our situation is not yet resolved. While I agree > that the various religions describe our condition fairly well, my > complaint is with the solution they apply to the problems they find. > > > > Wait a minute! I AM god. > > Now that is a very enlightened observation, Steven. The fact is that we > were made in our own image, not in God's image. We then make God in our > image. As a result, we each are the image of God we each attribute to > God. In that sense, we each are god. > > > > Oh dear! Fasten your seatbelts! I fear we're in for another bumpy ride! > > Very true, but not just in this discussion. My anger is about the ride > that is being imposed upon us by people who are sure they know God's > will. On the other hand, I make no claim to know God's will, but I do > know the end of the path being proposed. The real problem is that many > of these people look forward to having civilization destroyed because > they believe this is what God wants and they, because they use the > correct method of worship, will survive. This is the worst form of self > justification that is usually attributed to insanity when it is observed > in an isolated individual. Unfortunately, the attitude becomes an > accepted religion when it is believed by enough people. > > Regards, > Ed > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 13:21:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LKLDPW021303; Sat, 21 May 2005 13:21:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LKLANK021280; Sat, 21 May 2005 13:21:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:21:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gED1KDyJrHu5oaWhUKeNv6t8VTycsZAPJ6Xxjbx1hT+9iN7EK107yWn4hHnS8TyZyikgarFB/GyqSdJcC9YApWdcfKSnZvI+27rB80QveBYxyFNK1Ugp1SWrfyQCB4LpOE5IZ6JeH6fT3qz1HjlrdM2oJO97tW28ri850hXBfi0= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:21:00 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: God's Creations, formally Re: Lament for space In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <428E3722.4030001 ix.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4LKL5PW021199 Resent-Message-ID: <7P_ktB.A.cMF.1g5jCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ohh, i dont mind the holes they dig for THEMSELVES. i laugh when someone kills themselves in a single car accident with no passengers. its the holes they dig for OTHERS thats so dangerous and must be stopped. and by they, i mean anyone who pushes their religion on another, whatever their belief may be. On 5/21/05, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > Hi Ed, > > I'm just getting around to reading my back log of Vortex messages. > > I'm sure I'll have more to say shortly. > > ... > > > I agree with you. If I were God I would create a large collection of > > intelligent lifeforms on this and on various other planets and let > > evolution sort out which ones will survive. Some will make mistakes that > > lead to their extinction and others will find the wisdom to prosper and > > approach my image. Our situation is not yet resolved. While I agree > > that the various religions describe our condition fairly well, my > > complaint is with the solution they apply to the problems they find. > > > > > > Wait a minute! I AM god. > > > > Now that is a very enlightened observation, Steven. > > Oh, I rarely feel THAT enlightened! ;-) > > > The fact is that we > > were made in our own image, not in God's image. We then make God in our > > image. As a result, we each are the image of God we each attribute to > > God. In that sense, we each are god. > > I dare say this is a discussion on the refinement of perception that could > go on for months. It is questionable whether vortex is the place to continue > it even though I bare considerable responsibility for bringing it to the > forefront of this group. If so, my apologies to the collective membership. > > I will only add that God may not be that far away from our hearts and minds. > > I doubt you are in disagreement with me on that premise. > > > > Oh dear! Fasten your seatbelts! I fear we're in for another bumpy ride! > > > > Very true, but not just in this discussion. My anger is about the ride > > that is being imposed upon us by people who are sure they know God's > > will. On the other hand, I make no claim to know God's will, but I do > > know the end of the path being proposed. The real problem is that many > > of these people look forward to having civilization destroyed because > > they believe this is what God wants and they, because they use the > > correct method of worship, will survive. This is the worst form of self > > justification that is usually attributed to insanity when it is observed > > in an isolated individual. Unfortunately, the attitude becomes an > > accepted religion when it is believed by enough people. > > > > Regards, > > Ed > > > > > I understand you frustration as well. > > While I'm sure I freely chose to to play in this sandbox it did not give me > the right to chose who will be playing along side with me. The holes I > occasionally see and/or feel my plamates dig for themselves... sometimes it > feels so pointless. It vexes me too. > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 15:29:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LMSLPW005926; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LMSFI3005862; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,126,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="934874259:sNHT14859292" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: RE: And this *would* solve the energy crisis Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:27:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <428F8E14.6090601 ix.netcom.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed, ... > Yes Steven, I agree this is what we need. However, how can this > approach be brought about? If I knew the answer to that question! As for me, it often feels as if all I personally can do is continue to paint better visions of the future - directions we can take if we chose to. Hopefully some of my visions will eventually germinate. > We need a government whose self-interest is > not to keep energy cost high and we need a population that will elect > people based on their interest in solving such problems rather than > stopping stem cell research and killing social security. I predict the > problem will be solved after gasoline reaches $5/gal and after Bush and > his philosophy have been completely discredited. Aren't they already paying $5.00 a gallon in many European countries? It remains to be seen if we start bellyaching loud enough when the inevitable $5/gal price invades our own homeland. > At that time, people > will be so desperate that they will finally listen to reality. ...or to another fanatical regime even worse than the current Bush administration. "Oil is our God given right to take. etc..." That is one of my concerns. Perhaps it depends on how scared silly we get. > Until > then, nothing will improve because the special interests presently in > power are doing very nicely, thank you. However, they are not the kind > of interests that improve our lives. Just consider the situation, the > airline industry is going bankrupt, the auto industry is also going down > the drain, practically everything for sale is made in China, major > pension funds are being wiped out, social security and medicare are in > trouble, the national debt is out of control, and we are losing a war > that is killing our youth for no obvious benefit. In spite of all these > problems, the government is about to shut down, or at least be weakened, > because Bush and his gang want a couple of questionable judges. If > people don't care about these problems to do something, how would you > expect to gain support to solve the energy problem? > > Regards, > Ed I continue to have hope. I suspect you hold out for hope as well even though you may be battling your pessimisms - just as I wrestle with my own fears. Like your $5.00/gallon wake-up-call scenario prediction, I, too, suspect there will eventually be a major pivotal point experienced within our society as perceived by historians looking back another hundred years from now. Nobody can predict accurately what accumulation of events will trigger that pivotal point, or even worse, what path our nation will chose to follow as a result of the collective decisions we may take. In a metaphorical sense, it's as if the current time we're going through could be described as: the Seeding Time. This is the time one hopes to plant as many fertile seeds as possible. Hopefully, when society finally wakes up they will begin to perceive all the seeds that have been cast at their feet but ignored for so many years. Hopefully, enough of them will start making intelligent choices as to which ones to water. In the visual/metaphorical sense I created the following digital painting depicting such a concept, seen at: http://orionworks.com/artgal/svj/seeding_m.htm It was, by the way, the first digital painting I ever created back around 1994. 1800x2400 pixels using Corel PhotoPaint, a primitive 3D rendering program, and a Pentium III with 128 meg'o'memory. Yup, those were the good'ol days. [End of another self-serving mercenary plug!] Regarding one of those potential germinations it's possible that we may experience a collective national resolve to build self reliant energy collection structures like a couple thousand large scale Solar Towers. I have harped on the Solar Tower concept precisely because these structures, by their very presence would be in-your-face HUGE! They couldn't be ignored. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Symbolically, they could easily be perceived as positive symbols of hope, aspiration, independence, and self-reliance. If enough of the nation ended up rallying behind the building of these structures we would move mountains in the same way that we put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. I will, however, reserve judgment on whether it would be wise to build these structures until it is better known if they actually can deliver the amount of energy some claim they are capable of harvesting. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 15:29:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LMSQPW005953; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LMSI7K005889; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,126,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="934874239:sNHT13624820" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: Bob Lazar and his hydrogen conversion kit Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:27:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob Lazar is back in the news, and it's not about element 115! See: http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3373771&nav=168Xa85s >From the article: Lazar said, "Every major car company is working on a hydrogen system, but the only difference is, they want to sell you a new hydrogen car and sell you hydrogen gas at hydrogen gas stations. Basically, we're making a conversion kit you can use in your own car and instead of buying hydrogen from someone else, you make it." He makes hydrogen using water and a solar powered generator. But again, with a Lazar twist. "It's the only particle accelerator on the block, I guarantee ya." * * * * * * * * Please note: this is not an endorsement of Mr. Lazar. Only something I thought some Vorts might find interesting. enjoy! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 15:29:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LMSNPW005927; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LMSHwx005881; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:28:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.93,126,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="934874276:sNHT13942836" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: RE: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:27:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050521200241.026B33DCE xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Michael Foster > Speaking of solar towers, does anyone know why Solar One, > which became Solar Two, was decommissioned? It was in Daggett, > CA, and was visible from I-15 on your way from Los Angeles to > Las Vegas. Steam-on-a-stick, as it was called, seemed to be > producing plenty of electricity, so why was it shut down? > Political? Economic? What? I wonder too. > I used to marvel at the fact that the top of the tower, which > was dead black, looked bright white from being at the focal > point of all those mirrors. > > BTW, Jed, I recall reading some years ago about how many > plants and animals were thriving under the mirror array > on account of the previously unavailable shade. No doubt > this would have resulted in a different local ecosystem, > but an ecosystem nontheless. > > M. You bring up an interesting point. Decommissioned ships have been deliberately sunk in order to increase favorable habitat for aquatic forms - places for the little fishies to hide in to get away from the bigger fishies. Never the less, little fishies attract bigger fishies and before you know it, you've got a thriving eco system that didn't exist before. Sometimes, sinking a ship turns out to be in everyone's best interest. Perhaps strategically placed solar towers might might create similar valuable eco systems as well. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 15:54:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LMrsPW019263; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:53:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LMrqxQ019242; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:53:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:53:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005b01c55e57$f22f50c0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004801c55e19$a35b9a50$6801a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: K-shell is where its hap'nin' Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:53:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <3kCaCD.A.isE._v7jCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey it was kind of an arcane spoof, but I guess no one reads Aspden's work anyway. He did insist that # 5,734,122 was a huge breakthrough. Ah...there are just too many breakthroughs these days to keep track of... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 16:56:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4LNuKC6012208; Sat, 21 May 2005 16:56:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4LNuIKu012193; Sat, 21 May 2005 16:56:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:56:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c55e61$2948c240$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <01ca01c55d5f$2df25660$6801a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: Two more pieces Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:59:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The tasp (electronarcotic) will be much easier to perfect than any of the rest of this stuff. http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=59 And once it becomes available, interest in anything beyond will drop to zero as everyone plugs in and drops out. Civilization is KO'd! Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 1:13 PM Subject: Two more pieces > Two more pieces of an emerging picture-puzzle - an > "evolutionary-jump" jigsaw puzzle that is, were announced recently > in the science press. On NPR today was an update of the > non-invasive brain-computer interface technology, which already > offers more control than once thought possible. > > A brain-computer interface (BCI) which translates intentional tiny > electric signals detected from the scalp or other external cells, > from the user into a command structure which the computer > understands is now inevitable. It offers comparable precision, > speed and accuracy to systems that rely on electrodes surgically > implanted in the brain. Researchers at the Department of Health's > Wadsworth Center Laboratories have been working on this for some > time. It has been widely assumed that only invasive devices could > control complex movements, such as operating a word processing > program or a motorized accessories by thought alone. Here is a > past story, now dated the new advances which do not appear to be > online yet. > http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6745 > > Which brings to mind another logical progression and step in this > technology, which is the subject of two remarkable cinematic > masterpieces - "Strange Days" and Natalie Wood's last film, the > under-appreciated and aptly named movie "Brainstorm". > > Back to real science (as opposed to overly-dramatized prophecy). > The second piece of this perceived "quickening" is more aptly > appropriate for that descriptive word, in that it involves not > just stem cells, which can be grown more reliably now: > http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/05/20/1447203.shtml?tid=191&tid=14 > > And some mention is given of the next logical step, given that > stem cells still require donated human eggs. It will be a more > significant advance in medical engineering when we learn to use > specialized stem cells to also grow the necessary human ovary in > the lab, and then harvest the eggs from that line. It doesn't > really matter if the Luddites keep the USA from doing this, as > many countries are now capable. Today's news story comes from S. > Korea. > > Several labs are looking into this new angle, and natural > progression, of harvesting ovaries already, so the only question > is will the US be left out of being on the ground floor of this or > not. We can let the many 'Fall-wells' in the bigotry profession > fume and bombast all they want, but the process of advancement is > inevitable, somewhere, and the only question now for government is > who will benefit the most from genetic engineering. > > The advances now in the lab will dramatically decrease the need > for female donors, or eliminate that part of the equation, and > ultimately whatever Moore's law-equivalent comes to genetic > engineer will allow almost every wealthy individual to have > his/her own stem cells cloned and put into cryo-storage, starting > at a young age, put in storage ostensibly for future > contingencies, but not exclusively... > > Here is where is it is all leading. > > Imagine a youngster who is born this year (to wealthy and > ambitious parents in S. Korea) and which child will encounter a > situation in about 2008 when advances in computers will mean that > he may have ownership by that time, of a near human equivalent AI > thinking machine, for the cost of a luxury automobile, which > machine and auxiliary equipment (perhaps with some implants or > fashion accessories) will become: > > 1) first... his combination nanny, 24/7 big brother and playmate > (of the benign variety), guardian, kindergarten teacher, reward > giver, entertainer, story teller, and more parent than any human > parent could ever be. > > 2) second... his record keeper and diarist of **everything** > relevant that happened in his life, and life-long professor and > expert on all things. Keeping detail visual images of every > incident. > > 3) Then become his legal guardian, who recommends an embryonic > cloned duplicate be started and saved cryogenically... and then > manages and controls his wealth as it is inherited or earned. > > 4) Becomes and integral part, and managing-partner of this > persons' whole day-to-day existence, for his normal lifetime.... > > 5) probably by that time, the machine will have the same > continuity aspirations of the alter-ego owner, with whom each have > shared a long-term near-identity. > > We know what happens now when pet owners who have a long > relationship with a mere family pet, a trusted dog or cat as a > companion, and that animal dies. They will pay six figures for pet > cloning. Multiply that many-fold and imagine the intimacy and > cross-connection of the emerging duality of human and H.E.M. > (which is his human equivalent machine). More than a few of them > will be named Hal, no doubt, and when they talk to their banker, > or clone-keeper on the telephone, no one can tell if it is Him of > Hem on the other line. > > ...then...something most surprising is poised to transpire on the > death of the more transient half of that dual-hybrid-equation ... > Say the human dies in 2025 of something unavoidable, even with the > due diligence of his alter-ego (freak accident, or bioterrorism > from N. Korea, for instance)... OK then remember that for the > whole 20 year joint-existence and partnership, every single > meaningful event has been recorded and kept on file for all which > has happened in that lifetime... and, now the bereft HEM (if he > did not "pull-a-Hal"), knowing full-well, of the availability of > that clone in cold storage, and having financial resources at his > disposal ...ahh... > > Is there any doubt that the clone will be revived, and that an > enhanced BCI (brain-computer interface) will recreate for the > clone the whole past "identity" of the recently departed... and on > an accelerated timetable? > > Is this the surprising vision/version of **eternal life** that > awaits us in a technological future. > > If so, there is no doubt in my mind that, in different > circumstances, the preachers and prophets of every sect and > religion will say .. "yup... told you so." Even the Fall-wells of > the future, (some of whom will be clones) will arise and join in > the self-congratulatory back-slapping : "Bothers and Sisters. this > is exactly what our Messiah meant way back then [Amen, Amen], when > he promised eternal life to us believers, just as I have been > telling you, all along [Amen, Amen] ... > > ...Not to mention... the political connection - G.H.W Bush III, > looking identical to the dub, will be quoted for weeks on end on > Fox Network, now the official and only allowed news source of the > NWO... "Just look at what we have done, good Christians... we, the > silent majority, who have supported and financed this research on > stem-cell cloning from the very beginning... we are so happy now > and will be sure to "keep it in the family" and legislate that > only true believers need apply for CSC from Central Services (as > cloned storage continuity).... > > Signed. > > Harry Tuttle > Futurologist, and chief CS freezer repairman > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 18:37:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4M1bUxL025233; Sat, 21 May 2005 18:37:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4M1bSKn025212; Sat, 21 May 2005 18:37:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:37:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c55e6e$cd6a0ca0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01ca01c55d5f$2df25660$6801a8c0 NuDell> <000801c55e61$2948c240$6701a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> Subject: Re: OT - Two more pieces Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:37:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <8bK4YC.A.1JG.XJ-jCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff, > The tasp (electronarcotic) will be much easier to perfect than > any of the > rest of this stuff. Tasp and Droud... This guy makes up more cool words than Frank Herbert. I take it that 'Ringworld' is worth the effort? ... the Tasp may be superfluous for the web-surfer who is evolving a natural psi-link... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 20:04:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4M342xL029242; Sat, 21 May 2005 20:04:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4M34003029205; Sat, 21 May 2005 20:04:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:04:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c55e7a$e1d0b660$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:03:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Michael Foster >> Speaking of solar towers, does anyone know why Solar One, >> which became Solar Two, was decommissioned? It was in Daggett, >> CA, and was visible from I-15 on your way from Los Angeles to >> Las Vegas. Steam-on-a-stick, as it was called, seemed to be >> producing plenty of electricity, so why was it shut down? >> Political? Economic? What? There is a thread here: http://tinyurl.com/cts5u It seems three things were happening (to paraphrase): 1) Solar Two was inaugurated in June 1996 and was scheduled to produce power only through 1999. During this time, Solar Two underwent continuous testing and evaluation. Several members of the Solar Two Consortium, including Bechtel Corporation and Rocketdyne Division of Boeing, are apparently still exploring commercial prospects for power towers, now that natural gas has gone way up but neither of these companies is very competetive in power generation, and Bechtel has been tainted recently by allegations of payoffs everywhere - neither were a good choice for partners in this - they might as well have chosen Enron. It was a demonstration project which ended as scheduled. These is no apparent evidence it was not done right...but... 2) It was high higher maintenance than expected. Two other solar plants have had therminol explosions (up to 900,000 gallons worth)... faily dangerous for the amount of power they produce. Why they did not use molten salt is a mystery. 3) Also keep in mind that due to our genius bagman, i.e. former Gov. Pete Wilson and his greed inspired fine deregulation policy (not to mention incredible charisma) feeding right into the hands of Enron and its PAC buddies (tell 'em how you really feel !) Con Ed was required to sell many power plants and become more a distributor than producer. They probably could not find a buyer, or even donee ! for Solar Two, after the project ended, as gas fired plants may be cheaper than solar due to maintenance issues, even if they give the plant away. ...or so it seems Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 21 22:15:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4M5F6xL018623; Sat, 21 May 2005 22:15:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4M5F42G018607; Sat, 21 May 2005 22:15:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 22:15:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005c01c55e8d$3065e130$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: MIT Cold Fusion Symposium Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 01:14:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01C55E6B.A8931410" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <5e7f0D.A.liE.XVBkCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C55E6B.A8931410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I attended the MIT Cold Fusion Symposium today. =20 The main highlight was when Mitchell Schwartz mentioned an imminent = commerical cold fusion development out of South Korea. Apparently a = group there was granted a patent and Mitchell felt they were close to = releasing a commercial product. This was the highlight of the = symposium. There were quite a few interesting speakers during the day. A lot about = theory. I'll post more tomorrow. Mitchell Schwartz also proposed a new cold fusion unit of measurement = called the Mallove, in honor of the late Dr. Eugene Mallove, whom the = event was dedicated to. The Mallove unit would represent the optium = power output over the time it take to reach the optium power output.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C55E6B.A8931410 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I attended the MIT Cold Fusion Symposium = today. =20
 
The main highlight was when Mitchell = Schwartz=20 mentioned an imminent commerical cold fusion development out of South=20 Korea.  Apparently a group there was granted a patent and Mitchell = felt=20 they were close to releasing a commercial product.  This was the = highlight=20 of the symposium.
 
There were quite a few interesting speakers = during the=20 day. A lot about theory.  I'll post more tomorrow.
 
Mitchell Schwartz also proposed a new cold = fusion unit of=20 measurement called the Mallove, in honor of the late Dr. Eugene Mallove, = whom=20 the event was dedicated to.   The Mallove unit would represent = the=20 optium power output over the time it take to reach the optium power = output.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C55E6B.A8931410-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 06:11:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MDAkdL014898; Sun, 22 May 2005 06:10:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MDAi6Z014889; Sun, 22 May 2005 06:10:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 06:10:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 08:10:14 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF544 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Thread-Index: AcVdqLufwnwBIACrRUSaDtVf/zwMtQBJr6pg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 May 2005 13:10:13.0077 (UTC) FILETIME=[96C6A850:01C55ECF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4MDAbdL014820 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Maybe it does and goes unnoticed as much of the excess current gets turned into heat. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 9:59 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Fri, 20 May 2005 13:18:24 -0500: Hi, [snip] > > Could low level, pulsed electrolysis of water be >overunity? > > There have been some reports of this happening - >although they have been attributed to measurement errors by skeptics. > > Suppose that, at any given instant, a few, random >water molecules are ready to split apart. They would be momentarily >vunerable > to a pulse splitting them apart - that would contain >less energy than is normally required to achieve electrolysis. [snip] If it were true, why wouldn't it happen just as well under normal electrolysis? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 06:56:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MDu3dL001002; Sun, 22 May 2005 06:56:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MDtxkF000936; Sun, 22 May 2005 06:55:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 06:55:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007901c55ed5$ed79bab0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: The Proposed Mallove Cold Fusion Unit Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:55:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0076_01C55EB4.65A714A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ssss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C55EB4.65A714A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hastly posted a description of the proposed Mallove Cold Fusion unit = last night. Here's a more thorough description of the Mallove unit, as = proposed by Dr. Schwartz:=20 The "Mallove" is a proposed unit to describe the height/width of the = optimal operating points which appears to describe most (if not all) = cold fusion systems and their products. The optimal operating points = are seen when the product is plotted as function of input electrical = power. They peak is where each system should be (optimally) operated.=20 The Arata data, described by Russ George, and then shown in optimal = operating point fashion by me, is characterized by a "19 Mallove" = optimal operating point indicating a very high, very narrow peak.=20 The helium-4 and heat production data of Pd/D2O have "4 Mallove" and "5 = Mallove" opimal operating points indicating that these are less narrow, = but still important peaks of system operation along the input electrical = power axis.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C55EB4.65A714A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I hastly posted a description of the proposed Mallove Cold = Fusion unit=20 last night.  Here's a more thorough description of the Mallove = unit,=20 as proposed by Dr. Schwartz:

The "Mallove" is a proposed unit to describe the height/width of the = optimal=20 operating points which appears to describe most (if not all) cold fusion = systems=20 and their products.  The optimal operating points are seen when the = product=20 is plotted as function of input electrical power.  They peak is = where each=20 system should be (optimally) operated.

The Arata data, described by Russ George, and then shown in optimal = operating=20 point fashion by me, is characterized by a "19 Mallove" optimal = operating point=20 indicating a very high, very narrow peak.

The helium-4 and heat production data of Pd/D2O have "4 Mallove" and = "5=20 Mallove" opimal operating points indicating that these are less narrow, = but=20 still important peaks of system operation along the input electrical = power axis.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C55EB4.65A714A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 07:38:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MEccdL018935; Sun, 22 May 2005 07:38:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MEcY4h018899; Sun, 22 May 2005 07:38:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 07:38:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429099A8.2050600 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 10:39:36 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Another Norweigan First - Wave Power Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6zAG7.A.PnE.plJkCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First in fjords, laddermills and now: "The power generators, like giant, orange sausages floating on water, will use wave motion to produce electricity by pumping high-pressure fluids to motors, Norsk Hydro AS said. The Norwegian energy company is a major backer of the project." http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/05/20/norway.wave.power.ap/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 08:06:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MF6VdL030566; Sun, 22 May 2005 08:06:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MF6RtV030538; Sun, 22 May 2005 08:06:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 08:06:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01dd01c55edf$d0f0d810$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF544 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 08:06:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah...Ultra high efficiency electrolysis - it is a subject that reappears at least yearly on vortex. As it is involved in CF, there are probably more water-splitters here per capita than anywhere else on the net. Between all the water and hair-splitters, we could set up a chapter of Slitters-Anonymous - 12 steps to OU recovery, so to speak. Electrolysis is easy and cheap to experiment with, and often seems more promising at first take than later - because you can get "some" gas bubbles on a 'proper' cathode at extremely low voltage. There is a pronounced "reverse economy of scale" going on in this situation - IMHO, which is what is to be expected of ZPE-extraction, as a rule (again, very opinionated) A few of us went to work last year trying to find OU this way - follwoing the announcement in India that Prof R. P. Viswanath of Indian Institute of Technology Madras, had been uscessful using a compartmentalized electrolytic cell - and that they have been successful splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen at a relatively much lower potential of around 0.90 V compared to 1.23V. You can do this on a small scale, but doing it commercially on a large scale is another problem altogether. The theoretical minimum decomposition potential to split water into requires a potential of 1.23 V. but due to an assortement of reasons, a significantly higher potential is usually necessary for high-output - but the same does not apply when splitting H2O into H (as hydronium) and corresponding OH redicals as nature does that free-of-charge naturally. At the nanosecond time-scale, the formula for water is more like H(1.6)O plus intermediates than H2O. The *energy* required to produce hydrogen in large amounts by electrolysis works out to about 32.9 kW-hr/kg. For 1 mole (2 g) of hydrogen the energy is about 0.0660 kW-hr / mole. For commercial electrolysis systems that operate at about 1 A/cm2, a voltage of 1.75 V is required. This translates into about 46.8 kW-hr / kg, which corresponds to an energy efficiency of 70-75 %. Prof. Viswanath claimed to have been successful at around 0.90 V. This they claim is achieved by applying a chemical bias accross a **membrane** in a twin compartment cell - acid on one side, base on the other. In terms of current efficiency this works out to a phenomenal figure of 135 %. I thought I had found something similar in a small experiments using a fuel cell membrane, but it is easy to decieve oneself with these small voltages, when you can end up with more of a *battery* than a water-splitter - plus... finding a membrane that will last a long while in this situation is next to impossible. Viswanath says he can produce a kg of H2 using 29 KWH, but he does it very slowly. It is not known whether the rate of H2 production can be increased using this technique. I think not-for-long - and that is the problem - reverse economy of scale. BTW for comparison purposes, one can purchase off-peak electricity in many places for as low as 5 cents per KWH so basically this would work out to about 60 cents per pound for H2 for the energy used (not including the overhead) which is roughly equivalent to gasoline being $1.25/gallon. In manufacturing economics, this energy input would have to sell for about $4/gallon to cover overhead, labor, and ROI. Those are rough figures... but it is still exciting and feasible from the standpoint of home use, if someone could make it reliable. Corrosion is a huge potential problem as the membrane must be capable of keeping the base and acid separated for long periods, under power, and only conduct protons - just as in the Grove cell, where unfired ceramic circa 1860 worked for several years of relaying telegraph messages, apparently in the first reported instance of the twin cell concept. I had been encouraged to try this by looking at the age and experience of the Indian experimenter. He is a PhD who should not be succumbing to the many pitfalls that Ed has suggested (see the old archives...or try googling for the "Grove battery" a fascinating story. The Grove cell blurred the distinction between a battery, an electrolysis cell, and a fuel-cell... and still draws consternation to those like myself who are slightly dyslexic anyway, especially when it comes to pinpointing when a cathode becomes an anode. Essentially, it was not a battery at all but really a combined fuel-cell and "zinc burner" in one package. Speaking of a zinc (anode) burner, You may remember the famous Chemalloy patent, where powdered chemalloy produces hydrogen: http://www.nuscam.com/pdf/AlloyPatent.pdf Chemalloy, which was patented in 1952 by Samuel Freedman, is used as a solder today but is basically zinc with some other metals which can act as catalysts in H2O. A notorious free energy scam artist recently touted "his" special alloy as a magical free-energy hydrogen source - but on closer inspection, it was found out to be store-bought chemalloy, quadrupled in price. This alloy does indeed work as advertised to produce hydrogen from water with no oxygen - by essentially burning zinc into zinc oxide and releasing the hydrogen. It is not OU at all but an unudual kind of combustion. Now, back to the experiment in question: it uses Pt electrodes on both sides so no zinc or any other metal is consumed. There is no combustion process. Fuel cells are generally reversible to become electrolysis cells. What the Indian fellow may have done is stumbled on a OU reversed fuel-cell that operates through the "bare proton" pathway where there is no O2 only HOOH on the anode - this is an idea which I will re-float on vortex from time-to-time, as a hypothetical way that one can use the mass-energy of ZPE in the form of a 3.4 eV "entity" (photon or light lepton) which can be cohered from Dirac's sea. The 3.4 eV entity is best known as both the half-ionization potential energy of positronium (the major component of the Dirac sea interface) and/or the best estimate for mass of the electron anti-neutrino. It is probably related to both phenomena. The reason this particular cell would keep a proton 'bare' for longer (and were talking picoseconds here) than a normal electrolysis cell is that the two sides of the reaction are separated by the membrane, unlike regular electrolysis and by an extended spatial gap that doesn't seem to interfere with things. The longer a proton can be kept "bare" the more it will disrupt the epo (Dirac sea) interface and the more likely it will be able to "pump" ZPE in the form of that 3.4 eV photon. R. Mills' older "wet cell" has similar potential for this. Since this presentation cited below appeared at the recent ACS meeting, slightly before the vortex threads concerning OU electrolysis... well, I still don't know exactly what to make of it all, as I have no inside-info, and did not attend the meeting, nor did I hear about it from Mike or Robin, the resident hydrino-philes nor anyone else... but....anyone interested in high efficiency electrolysis should also read this... http://tinyurl.com/3ewp7 It is a long pdf doc that concerns the most recent BLP work and theory, heavily padded with a long boilerplate intro... the "meat" of the presentation is all the way near the end, page 46 and beyond. As to my attempted replication of the Indian patent, one never likes to report negative outcomes, or to be generous - even ambiguous (good-news/bad-news) experimental results, so I'll keep this short. The good news is, that in an attempt to get similar results to that report of water splitting at 1 volt or less using an acid-base dual electrolyte, I was able to get copious hydrogen gas evolution at less than 1 volt - drawing about 60 times more current than the reported experiment for a short time. The bad news is there was a severe anode imbalance and lack of oxygen evolution. The reason is not clear, but it probably relates to this cell functioning both as a battery and water-splitter. Only what element is being consumed? The lack of a proper membrane is the most obvious problem, as is keeping the electrodes from being consummed. This begs to be replicated by someone with more skill and resources, however. I am not at all convinced yet that water cannot be split in an overunity mode using the Indian technique, despite no new information coming from Indai on this recently - but it will surely demand something more than a fuel-cell type membrane (what I was using, and it did not last long) to accomplish it: at least the "Primea type" membrane appears to be fairly permeable to larger ions as well after only a few hours of use. Hope this doesn't discourage anyone else who is thinking about it, especially if you have a ceramic that will pass protons but nothing larger. That is probably the key - a ceramic proton conductor as in the Grove cell. Maybe beta-alumina will work. If the concept works at all, the membrane will be the key to success but the rest of the experiment is relatively simple to perform. Any suggestion on where to find such a membrane should be aired here, esp. as it looks like the promising company Protonetics, Inc (brainchild of one of the Coors clan) is no longer operating. They did claim to have just such a membrane. Jones BTW, my result of 'much' higher current and hydrogen evolution than the reported Indian cell may not have been just a quirk of ion leakage. That Indian cell, as it turns out, and as I told Keith at the time, was wired up incorrectly for best results in the sense of hydrino production (if you are using K electrolyte) PLEASE try this if you are so inclined. It is one of those many promising areas that begs for creative inventors to get involved. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 08:35:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MFZFdL010931; Sun, 22 May 2005 08:35:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MFZ0R8010735; Sun, 22 May 2005 08:35:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 08:35:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4290A698.4070803 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:34:48 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: And this *would* solve the energy crisis References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > Hi Ed, > > ... > > >>Yes Steven, I agree this is what we need. However, how can this >>approach be brought about? > > > If I knew the answer to that question! > > As for me, it often feels as if all I personally can do is continue to paint > better visions of the future - directions we can take if we chose to. > Hopefully some of my visions will eventually germinate. And a good job you do. We all need, I need, a vision of a better future even it never materializes. > > >> We need a government whose self-interest is >>not to keep energy cost high and we need a population that will elect >>people based on their interest in solving such problems rather than >>stopping stem cell research and killing social security. I predict the >>problem will be solved after gasoline reaches $5/gal and after Bush and >>his philosophy have been completely discredited. > > > Aren't they already paying $5.00 a gallon in many European countries? It > remains to be seen if we start bellyaching loud enough when the inevitable > $5/gal price invades our own homeland. Yes, gas is above $5/gal there. However, this is not a problem there because people do not need to drive long distances and the cars get much better gas mileage. Besides, public transportation is so much better that cars are used less. Thanks to the policy of short term profit and immediate gratification, the US has dug itself into a hole. > > > >> At that time, people >>will be so desperate that they will finally listen to reality. > > > ...or to another fanatical regime even worse than the current Bush > administration. "Oil is our God given right to take. etc..." Like you, I have no confidence that the American people are capable of electing a better government. The quality seems to be totally random, with a fat tail on the down side these days. > > That is one of my concerns. Perhaps it depends on how scared silly we get. I suspect that when a person loses his pension, his job, and his house, and food costs rise out of sight because of high energy costs, he will be so pissed that gay rights, abortion, and other religious issues will become much less important. Although he will still think such issues are worth discussing, they will not be worth electing air heads who have no understanding of other issues. Also, remember in the past a conservative was a person who had money, or at least its expectation, while a liberal was a person who had none. Right now people are fighting to keep what they have. When this is gone, as it will be soon, they will suddenly become "liberal". In the past when public works were required to offset economic down-turns, Roosevelt built dams, Eisenhower built highways, and Kennedy built the space program. Now we need the next president to make the country energy independent while creating jobs that can not be done in China or India. Only then will all of the ideas and background being discussed on Vortex become important enough to implement. > > >> Until >>then, nothing will improve because the special interests presently in >>power are doing very nicely, thank you. However, they are not the kind >>of interests that improve our lives. Just consider the situation, the >>airline industry is going bankrupt, the auto industry is also going down >>the drain, practically everything for sale is made in China, major >>pension funds are being wiped out, social security and medicare are in >>trouble, the national debt is out of control, and we are losing a war >>that is killing our youth for no obvious benefit. In spite of all these >>problems, the government is about to shut down, or at least be weakened, >>because Bush and his gang want a couple of questionable judges. If >>people don't care about these problems to do something, how would you >>expect to gain support to solve the energy problem? >> >>Regards, >>Ed > > > I continue to have hope. I suspect you hold out for hope as well even though > you may be battling your pessimisms - just as I wrestle with my own fears. > > Like your $5.00/gallon wake-up-call scenario prediction, I, too, suspect > there will eventually be a major pivotal point experienced within our > society as perceived by historians looking back another hundred years from > now. Nobody can predict accurately what accumulation of events will trigger > that pivotal point, or even worse, what path our nation will chose to follow > as a result of the collective decisions we may take. In a metaphorical > sense, it's as if the current time we're going through could be described > as: the Seeding Time. This is the time one hopes to plant as many fertile > seeds as possible. Hopefully, when society finally wakes up they will begin > to perceive all the seeds that have been cast at their feet but ignored for > so many years. Hopefully, enough of them will start making intelligent > choices as to which ones to water. > > In the visual/metaphorical sense I created the following digital painting > depicting such a concept, seen at: > > http://orionworks.com/artgal/svj/seeding_m.htm A great picture and very symbolic to our times. Regards, Ed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 08:54:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MFsTdL020247; Sun, 22 May 2005 08:54:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MFsQml020222; Sun, 22 May 2005 08:54:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 08:54:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4290AB34.8090405 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:54:28 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF544 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <01dd01c55edf$d0f0d810$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <01dd01c55edf$d0f0d810$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Ah...Ultra high efficiency electrolysis - it is a subject that reappears > at least yearly on vortex. As it is involved in CF, there are probably > more water-splitters here per capita than anywhere else on the net. > Between all the water and hair-splitters, we could set up a chapter of > Slitters-Anonymous - 12 steps to OU recovery, so to speak. > > Electrolysis is easy and cheap to experiment with, and often seems more > promising at first take than later - because you can get "some" gas > bubbles on a 'proper' cathode at extremely low voltage. There is a > pronounced "reverse economy of scale" going on in this situation - > IMHO, which is what is to be expected of ZPE-extraction, as a rule > (again, very opinionated) > > A few of us went to work last year trying to find OU this way - > follwoing the announcement in India that Prof R. P. Viswanath of Indian > Institute of Technology Madras, had been uscessful using a > compartmentalized electrolytic cell - and that they have been successful > splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen at a relatively much lower > potential of around 0.90 V compared to 1.23V. You can do this on a small > scale, but doing it commercially on a large scale is another problem > altogether. > > The theoretical minimum decomposition potential to split water into > requires a potential of 1.23 V. but due to an assortement of reasons, a > significantly higher potential is usually necessary for high-output - > but the same does not apply when splitting H2O into H (as hydronium) and > corresponding OH redicals as nature does that free-of-charge naturally. > At the nanosecond time-scale, the formula for water is more like H(1.6)O > plus intermediates than H2O. Jones, let me suggest another reason why a voltage below 1.23 V can be used to split water. The 1.23 V value is for the "ideal" condition when all reactants and products are at unit activity, i.e. when H2O is pure, and H2 and O2 are at 1 atm. However, pure H2O can not be used because it is essentially an insulator. When extra H+ or OH- are added to make the fluid conductive, the H2O is no longer pure and at unit activity. In essence, energy has been added that has partially split the water into H and O. As a result, less energy is required as voltage to complete the process. If the energy added to the solution in making and adding the H+ or OH- is taken into account, the correct enthalpy of H2O will be obtained. In other words, an apparent OU is only caused by not taking all energy sources into account. Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 11:14:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MIEUdL025466; Sun, 22 May 2005 11:14:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MIESEs025454; Sun, 22 May 2005 11:14:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:14:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: And this *would* solve the energy crisis Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:17:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <4290A698.4070803 ix.netcom.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed. You write: >I suspect that when a person loses his pension, his job, and his house, >and food costs rise out of sight because of high energy costs, he will >be so pissed that gay rights, abortion, and other religious issues will >become much less important. And you would be entirely wrong. In fact, as more people are driven into poverty by these issues, greater support for more irrational and fanatical opinions will accrue. Even a cursory study of history will prove my point. While I have great respect for your grasp of electrochemistry ( a subject near and dear to my heart ) your understanding of the human heart is meagre at best. Google "denial and projection" for more information from the great Noodle AI, or just read some of Thomas's posts for terrific object lessons. Speaking of which; if only you would spend 1/4 of your time posting about your research that you spend in pointless argument with Thomas, we'd all be a lot better off. Just a suggestion. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 13:11:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MKBZdL015200; Sun, 22 May 2005 13:11:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MKBUFZ015174; Sun, 22 May 2005 13:11:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:11:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <024a01c55f0a$6cacc1e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF544 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <01dd01c55edf$d0f0d810$6801a8c0@NuDell> <4290AB34.8090405@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:11:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, > When extra H+ or OH- are added to make the fluid conductive, the > H2O is no longer pure and at unit activity. In essence, energy > has been added that has partially split the water into H and O. > As a result, less energy is required as voltage to complete the > process. If the energy added to the solution in making and > adding the H+ or OH- is taken into account, the correct enthalpy > of H2O will be obtained. In other words, an apparent OU is only > caused by not taking all energy sources into account. Yes...but... it's a little bit like "the gift that keeps on giving" isn't it? ...in that when done properly, you only add the electrolytes once, and following that, the lowered unit effects continue-on for an extended time period. Jones BTW... (OT) ... as a curiosity, I was trying to remember the originator of the now-trite catch-phrase: "give the gift that keeps on giving" ... My earliest recollection from years-past is an association with Hallmark Cards - the masters of marketing, but they probably lifted it from literature. Does anyone know? And please, no references to so-called "social" diseases are necessary at this time ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 22 14:19:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4MLItdL016380; Sun, 22 May 2005 14:18:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4MLIrlD016362; Sun, 22 May 2005 14:18:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:18:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4290F73D.2090007 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:18:53 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF544 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <01dd01c55edf$d0f0d810$6801a8c0@NuDell> <4290AB34.8090405@ix.netcom.com> <024a01c55f0a$6cacc1e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <024a01c55f0a$6cacc1e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Ed, > >> When extra H+ or OH- are added to make the fluid conductive, the H2O >> is no longer pure and at unit activity. In essence, energy has been >> added that has partially split the water into H and O. As a result, >> less energy is required as voltage to complete the process. If the >> energy added to the solution in making and adding the H+ or OH- is >> taken into account, the correct enthalpy of H2O will be obtained. In >> other words, an apparent OU is only caused by not taking all energy >> sources into account. > > > Yes...but... it's a little bit like "the gift that keeps on giving" > isn't it? > > ...in that when done properly, you only add the electrolytes once, and > following that, the lowered unit effects continue-on for an extended > time period. Well not quite. As water is electrolyzed, the concentration of added salt increases. I suspect that the minimum voltage occurs only at particular concentration, with the "ideal" voltage being required at low concentrations and a much larger voltage required at very high concentrations. Somewhere between these extremes, the voltage goes through a minimum. As usual, nature does not continue to give but always takes away. regards, Ed > Jones > > BTW... (OT) ... as a curiosity, I was trying to remember the originator > of the now-trite catch-phrase: "give the gift that keeps on giving" > > ... My earliest recollection from years-past is an association with > Hallmark Cards - the masters of marketing, but they probably lifted it > from literature. Does anyone know? And please, no references to > so-called "social" diseases are necessary at this time ... > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 23 09:06:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4NG5obw002104; Mon, 23 May 2005 09:05:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4NG5k8H002076; Mon, 23 May 2005 09:05:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:05:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:05:40 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF54A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Thread-Index: AcVe5p+hsbiBPmZBTjK7kTyiMteg2gAyl7Pw From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2005 16:05:36.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[41B30AB0:01C55FB1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4NG5gbw001965 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How about the stuff Kanarev did? Any good? http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/electrolysis -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 11:54 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Could Low Level Electrolysis Be Overunity? Jones Beene wrote: > Ah...Ultra high efficiency electrolysis - it is a subject that > reappears at least yearly on vortex. As it is involved in CF, there > are probably more water-splitters here per capita than anywhere else on the net. > Between all the water and hair-splitters, we could set up a chapter of > Slitters-Anonymous - 12 steps to OU recovery, so to speak. > > Electrolysis is easy and cheap to experiment with, and often seems > more promising at first take than later - because you can get "some" > gas bubbles on a 'proper' cathode at extremely low voltage. There is a > pronounced "reverse economy of scale" going on in this situation - > IMHO, which is what is to be expected of ZPE-extraction, as a rule > (again, very opinionated) > > A few of us went to work last year trying to find OU this way - > follwoing the announcement in India that Prof R. P. Viswanath of > Indian Institute of Technology Madras, had been uscessful using a > compartmentalized electrolytic cell - and that they have been > successful splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen at a relatively > much lower potential of around 0.90 V compared to 1.23V. You can do > this on a small scale, but doing it commercially on a large scale is > another problem altogether. > > The theoretical minimum decomposition potential to split water into > requires a potential of 1.23 V. but due to an assortement of reasons, > a significantly higher potential is usually necessary for high-output > - but the same does not apply when splitting H2O into H (as hydronium) > and corresponding OH redicals as nature does that free-of-charge naturally. > At the nanosecond time-scale, the formula for water is more like > H(1.6)O plus intermediates than H2O. Jones, let me suggest another reason why a voltage below 1.23 V can be used to split water. The 1.23 V value is for the "ideal" condition when all reactants and products are at unit activity, i.e. when H2O is pure, and H2 and O2 are at 1 atm. However, pure H2O can not be used because it is essentially an insulator. When extra H+ or OH- are added to make the fluid conductive, the H2O is no longer pure and at unit activity. In essence, energy has been added that has partially split the water into H and O. As a result, less energy is required as voltage to complete the process. If the energy added to the solution in making and adding the H+ or OH- is taken into account, the correct enthalpy of H2O will be obtained. In other words, an apparent OU is only caused by not taking all energy sources into account. Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 23 14:11:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4NLBQbw022820; Mon, 23 May 2005 14:11:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4NLBNBq022790; Mon, 23 May 2005 14:11:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:11:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:11:51 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: test Message-ID: <32310328.1116861111 localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========32327859==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --==========32327859========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline no posts on vortex today ? --==========32327859========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Arialno posts on vortex today ? --==========32327859==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 23 15:12:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4NMBgbw021900; Mon, 23 May 2005 15:11:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4NMBeaD021869; Mon, 23 May 2005 15:11:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:11:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4292555B.6000409 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:12:43 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: test References: <32310328.1116861111 localhost> In-Reply-To: <32310328.1116861111 localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One....er, now two. :-) Ron Wormus wrote: > no posts on vortex today ? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 23 15:32:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4NMWFbw031574; Mon, 23 May 2005 15:32:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4NMWC0o031549; Mon, 23 May 2005 15:32:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:32:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uUEvhINXGhH/t1Za1DDnILAOuhg19uzdprv1vLimL1sbIf0Zoo0HorInmH2D3Dh39c/G7LZBilA0lcVCZa7lX6+uA0WpOEtvHQrmTOnzAUyXRB+z7SifeyL6ifwmeejE2wDopZY6GtFZ05FDlS8AoVYwNzfziSSTUMDE8ZPHOxY= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:32:04 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: test In-Reply-To: <4292555B.6000409 bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <32310328.1116861111 localhost> <4292555B.6000409@bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4NMW9bw031477 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 3 , 1, 2, 3 posts, aaa aaa. On 5/23/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > One....er, now two. :-) > > Ron Wormus wrote: > > > no posts on vortex today ? > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 23 15:43:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4NMhPBI004300; Mon, 23 May 2005 15:43:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4NMhLiw004229; Mon, 23 May 2005 15:43:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:43:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c55fe8$c49ef3d0$37027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: test Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:42:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C55FBE.DB4A1EE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C55FBE.DB4A1EE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C55FBE.DB4A1EE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C55FBE.DB4A1EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankPerhaps the silence can be attributed to the Bob Lazer article = contained in the Las Vegas news.. see link=20 I chuckle at this guy. GM has spent a small fortune researching metal hydrides for storing = hydrogen gas safely for automotive use and Bob comes up with a home made = 25 ft particle accelerator for hydride concentration. I love it. Look at the video of the pipe coming out of the roof of his garage. He = must drive em nuts with his ability to attract the press. Does it work ?? Who knows him well enough to find out. If his work on hydrides = represents a valid technology, whoopee doo for him !! Richard http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/category.asp?C=3D5546&nav=3D168X ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C55FBE.DB4A1EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Perhaps the silence can be attributed to the Bob Lazer article = contained in=20 the Las Vegas news.. see link
I chuckle at this guy.
GM has spent a small fortune researching metal hydrides for storing = hydrogen gas safely for automotive use and Bob comes up with a home made = 25 ft=20 particle accelerator for hydride concentration. I love it.
Look at the video of the pipe coming out of the roof of his garage. = He must=20 drive em nuts with his ability to attract the press.
Does it work ??
Who knows him well enough to find out. If his work on hydrides = represents a=20 valid technology, whoopee doo for him !!
 
Richard

 http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/category.asp?C=3D5546&nav=3D168X=

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C55FBE.DB4A1EE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C55FBE.DB4A1EE0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c55fe8$c41a0c60$37027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C55FBE.DB4A1EE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 23 16:37:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4NNbLBI029130; Mon, 23 May 2005 16:37:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4NNbI8C029105; Mon, 23 May 2005 16:37:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:37:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=sUlhMdC9jSap5Oj89DLzdcQ8lxmOh5+vwsVOHJdL4ybXbmi7tjj2wzk6bmCYGXJjrBm56MORk+HyzxXFPYZWyvoL1kZyMy465MvrTgq/czza/4YGXNr7lzKugGrHD3x2lS+TX6LDaSR6Kjs2LmYMjA77RdGeXXezfYbGVYzj46o= ; Message-ID: <20050523233708.26398.qmail web51508.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:37:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: test To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001201c55fe8$c49ef3d0$37027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-1921079822-1116891428=:21212" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1921079822-1116891428=:21212 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1124315001-1116891428=:21212" --0-1124315001-1116891428=:21212 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Metal Hydrides will be out (only my prediction) and nanophase diamond will win for safe hydrogen storage. My tabletop particle accelerator (23.5 feet shorter than Lazar's) produces high purity nano phase diamond that soaks up hydrogen like a sponge, just like the literature indicates that it should. http://prelas.nuclear.missouri.edu/Publications/Hydrogen%20Storage%20ANS%20Trans%202001.pdf I can't blame Bob for tinkering, but he really should consider hydrogen embrittlement when it comes to running H2 through that high power Corvette engine. Bob once mentioned he did not know of any earth element that the gravity A field could be accessed from. I suggest if an element is ripped to shreds within a powerful enough Plasma such as mine - the gravity A field is exposed and that may be what is radiating from the Plasma during thermal runaway and other specific conditions. Any comment Bob? Regards, Chris Arnold RC Macaulay wrote: BODY { MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica}P.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman"}LI.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman"}Perhaps the silence can be attributed to the Bob Lazer article contained in the Las Vegas news.. see link I chuckle at this guy. GM has spent a small fortune researching metal hydrides for storing hydrogen gas safely for automotive use and Bob comes up with a home made 25 ft particle accelerator for hydride concentration. I love it. Look at the video of the pipe coming out of the roof of his garage. He must drive em nuts with his ability to attract the press. Does it work ?? Who knows him well enough to find out. If his work on hydrides represents a valid technology, whoopee doo for him !! Richard http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/category.asp?C=5546&nav=168X __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1124315001-1116891428=:21212 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Metal Hydrides will be out (only my prediction) and nanophase diamond will win for safe hydrogen storage. My tabletop particle accelerator (23.5 feet shorter than Lazar's) produces high purity nano phase diamond that soaks up hydrogen like a sponge, just like the literature indicates that it should. http://prelas.nuclear.missouri.edu/Publications/Hydrogen%20Storage%20ANS%20Trans%202001.pdf
 
I can't blame Bob for tinkering, but he really should consider hydrogen embrittlement when it comes to running H2 through that high power Corvette engine. 
 
Bob once mentioned he did not know of any earth element that the gravity A field could be accessed from. I suggest if an element is ripped to shreds within a powerful enough Plasma such as mine - the gravity A field is exposed and that may be what is radiating from the Plasma during thermal runaway and other specific conditions. Any comment Bob?
 
Regards,
Chris Arnold

RC Macaulay <walhalla cvtv.net> wrote:
Perhaps the silence can be attributed to the Bob Lazer article contained in the Las Vegas news.. see link
I chuckle at this guy.
GM has spent a small fortune researching metal hydrides for storing hydrogen gas safely for automotive use and Bob comes up with a home made 25 ft particle accelerator for hydride concentration. I love it.
Look at the video of the pipe coming out of the roof of his garage. He must drive em nuts with his ability to attract the press.
Does it work ??
Who knows him well enough to find out. If his work on hydrides represents a valid technology, whoopee doo for him !!
 
Richard

 http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/category.asp?C=5546&nav=168X

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1124315001-1116891428=:21212-- --0-1921079822-1116891428=:21212 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02 898pGkgiYoCm6sq27iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9Jp JGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lWxo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy 2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== --0-1921079822-1116891428=:21212-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 06:16:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ODGcvX028485; Tue, 24 May 2005 06:16:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ODGbhf028475; Tue, 24 May 2005 06:16:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:16:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <6d.45f2bf47.2fc48329 aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:16:25 EDT Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1116940585" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5036 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1116940585 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A series of quarter mile solar towers placed in the center of flying airships would prove more economical, safe, and easier to build and test. Smaller is better. Building a one mile high solar tower that is fixed to the ground which could be damaged by weather or other problems is far riskier than building one or a few flying small quarter mile solar tower airships which can move around and which can be built with smaller investment risks. -------------------------------1116940585 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A series of quarter mile solar towers placed in the center of  flyin= g airships would prove more economical, safe, and easier to build and test.&= nbsp; Smaller is better.  Building a one mile high solar tower tha= t is fixed to the ground which could be damaged by weather or other problems= is far riskier than building one or a few flying small quarter mile solar t= ower airships which can move around and which can be built with smaller inve= stment risks. -------------------------------1116940585-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 06:37:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ODaivX004852; Tue, 24 May 2005 06:36:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ODaiZr004841; Tue, 24 May 2005 06:36:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:36:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vthu$sgp779 mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,131,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="957127913:sNHT18961346" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 9:36:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Baron, > From: Baronvolsung aol.com ... > A series of quarter mile solar towers placed in > the center of flying airships would prove more > economical, safe, and easier to build and test. > Smaller is better. Building a one mile high > solar tower that is fixed to the ground > which could be damaged by weather or other > problems is far riskier than building > one or a few flying small quarter mile solar > tower airships which can move around and which > can be built with smaller investment risks. Have you considered switching channels? Just my two cents. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 06:45:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ODjWvX009126; Tue, 24 May 2005 06:45:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ODjUuU009092; Tue, 24 May 2005 06:45:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:45:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:45:16 EDT Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1116942315" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5036 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1116942315 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/24/2005 9:37:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, orionworks charter.net writes: Have you considered switching channels? Just my two cents. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com I tune into many channells all at once, though there are a few I should avoid and tune out. I like your www.OrionWorks.com website. -------------------------------1116942315 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 5/24/2005 9:37:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, orionwor= ks charter.net writes:
Have you considered switching channels?
Just my two cents.

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.Ori= onWorks.com
I tune into many channells all at once, though there are a few I should= avoid and tune out.  I like your www.OrionWorks.com website.
 
-------------------------------1116942315-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 06:58:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4ODvsvX016826; Tue, 24 May 2005 06:57:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4ODvp9c016800; Tue, 24 May 2005 06:57:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:57:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vtna$s6jspv mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,132,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="946467647:sNHT15307760" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 9:57:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Baron, > Baron writes: >> orionworks charter.net writes: >> Have you considered switching channels? >> >> Just my two cents. >> > I tune into many channells all at once, though there > are a few I should avoid and tune out. I like your > www.OrionWorks.com website. Thank you for your kind complement. Many channels all at once? Discernment, my man! Discernment! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 07:20:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OEKNvX029088; Tue, 24 May 2005 07:20:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OEKLw7029061; Tue, 24 May 2005 07:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:20:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:19:52 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: <6d.45f2bf47.2fc48329 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <6d.45f2bf47.2fc48329 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 24 May 2005 09:16:25 EDT, you wrote: >A series of quarter mile solar towers placed in the center of flying >airships would prove more economical, safe, and easier to build and test. Smaller is >better. Building a one mile high solar tower that is fixed to the ground >which could be damaged by weather or other problems is far riskier than building >one or a few flying small quarter mile solar tower airships which can move >around and which can be built with smaller investment risks. --- I find that hard to believe. Do you have some factual data to back up your opinion? -- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 10:27:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OHRNvX002759; Tue, 24 May 2005 10:27:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OHRLKC002737; Tue, 24 May 2005 10:27:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:27:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: A.E. Quotation Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:27:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050524172713.BRAT24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 10:38:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OHcPvX008807; Tue, 24 May 2005 10:38:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OHcNn2008785; Tue, 24 May 2005 10:38:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:38:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: DNA Rebuttal Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:38:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050524173816.BWTQ24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "In the Beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." and "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 11:03:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OI2ovX022631; Tue, 24 May 2005 11:02:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OI2l3r022608; Tue, 24 May 2005 11:02:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:02:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b701c5608a$c7042c60$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050524173816.BWTQ24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: DNA Rebuttal Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:02:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he > realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely > hoped that there wasn't an afterlife." Salmon has arrived, after rushdie-livery, now trolling for a big catch... and shouldn't that be "alfterlff" ? Or does the spell checker on the Mac balk as much as the one on the PC? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 11:03:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OI35vX022762; Tue, 24 May 2005 11:03:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OI2wdD022667; Tue, 24 May 2005 11:02:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:02:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b601c5608a$c6b7e120$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050524172713.BRAT24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: A.E. Quotation Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:49:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > "How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one > person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of > a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important > function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it > alive in those who are receptive to it." One more reaon to suspect that A.E. "should" be appreciated for the keen insight in "Ideas and Opinions" more so than for the "borrowed" concept of e=mc^2.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 11:13:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OIDPvX028173; Tue, 24 May 2005 11:13:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OIDOD5028167; Tue, 24 May 2005 11:13:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:13:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Private industry takes on global warming... Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:16:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Private industry takes on global warming...one swiss ski resort at a time. http://www.terradaily.com/2005/050510203249.4l577zv0.html Swiss ski resort swaddles glacier to stop melting ANDERMATT, Switzerland (AFP) May 10, 2005 A Swiss ski resort Tuesday wrapped up an entire glacier to stop it melting and to protect ski runs. The protective layer covers an area of 2,500 square metres (26,910 square feet) of the Gurschen glacier at Andermatt in the centre of the country, Andermatt Gotthard Sportbahnen SA which operates ski lifts said. The initiative has been criticised by environmentalist groups which say it serves no purpose. The sheet covering the glacier, situated in the canton of Uri, is 3.8 mm (0.15 inch) thick and made of synthetic fibres which protect the snow cover from ultraviolet radiation with the aim of preventing the ice from melting. It will be removed in the autumn and put back next spring. Over the past 15 years the glacier has receded by about 20 metres from one of its stations, the ski lift company said. But the WWF environmental group said that "covering up glaciers is not going to solve the problem of global warming." Only climate protection measures such as cutting back greenhouse gases are useful, it said in a statement. Eight activists from the Greenpeace environmental group unfolded banners on the glacier overnight, calling for the protection of the climate rather than treatment of symptoms. The Pro Natura group attacked the ski lift company for extending its car parks near the lifts, saying ski resorts should improve access by public transport. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 11:17:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OIHEvX030458; Tue, 24 May 2005 11:17:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OIHCVN030433; Tue, 24 May 2005 11:17:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:17:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: The Rushdie Test (was DNA Rebuttal) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:17:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050524181700.COXF24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Salmon has arrived, after rushdie-livery, now trolling for a big > catch... and shouldn't that be "alfterlff" ? "God, Satan, Paradise, and Hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth year, when I quite abruptly lost my faith. [...]and afterwards, to prove my new-found atheism, I bought myself a rather tasteless ham sandwich, and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of the swine. No thunderbolt arrived to strike me down. [...] From that day to this I have thought of myself as a wholly secular person. " -Salman R. (holy secular, batman!) > Or does the spell checker on the Mac balk as much as the one on > the PC? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=alfterlff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 12:11:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OJBSvX024177; Tue, 24 May 2005 12:11:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OJBPPL024122; Tue, 24 May 2005 12:11:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:11:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Private industry takes on global warming... Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:11:17 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20050524181700.COXF24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050524181700.COXF24612.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505242111.17851.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Moin! I think the first time I was in Switzerland was in 79 or 80. I landed in Geneva, and took a train around to the Montreux - Vevey area. It was late Springtime, and I was completely knocked out by the sheer beauty of the place. The trees were in full bloom, the grass was green, and there were flowers growing everywhere. I stayed in several chalets up in the mountains, and in every one, the proprietor would show me pictures of what the place looked like the year before. There had evidently been some hard, warm rains in the previous Spring which caused massive landslides. From the photos, everything was a brown, mucky mess. Roads were washed out, chalets were half buried in mud. It was hard to believe that I was standing in the same place. I agree that this action by the ski resort is only treating an environmental symtom, but I am sure that the local insurance companies are all giving it a thumbs up. The property damage claims from the mudslides must have been enormous. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 14:53:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4OLquwU016709; Tue, 24 May 2005 14:52:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4OLqrKh016666; Tue, 24 May 2005 14:52:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:52:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vth7$ongr08 mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,133,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="829975560:sNHT45270972" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Disruptive Technology in the making Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:52:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I bet you already know about this service, considering your views on telecommuting. First of all, my apologies to Vort's esteemed associates located across the Atlantic. May you read the following scenario with some amusement. One of my stepbrothers recently introduced me to a cable based phone service called Vonage. He got it for his mother (my step-mom) so that she could call a large brood of children, grandchildren, and relatives living cross-country and in Canada - all for the same fixed monthly price of about 25 dollars. It's my understanding that if you can subscribe to broadband cable or DSL you likely have the ability to subscribe to this phone service. There's a good chance you can keep your original phone number as well. There appear to be lots of nifty services. For example, you can take your (home) number to any place on the planet and (assuming they have cable/DSL available) plug it in to the Internet. Once connected (or logged in) your friends and associates can to call you as if they were phoning you from home. If they are calling from the same area code they won't rack up long distance charges either. I'm currently subscribed to what some might consider a traditional phone service, SBC, where I get unlimited calls to anywhere in the U.S. or Canada for a monthly fixed price. When I first signed up to SBC over a year ago the service cost me approximately $40.00 - 45.00 + tax. However, recently I noticed that my bill has clandestinely increased a tad each month. As of this month I'm paying close to sixty dollars a month for the exact same service. I added no additional services. We have cable in our household. Needless to say, I will likely make the switch to Vonage in another month or two. Bye-bye SBC. Of course, cable phone service is not perfect. It isn't as reliable as owning a traditional phone line. Customers will have to expect (and plan for) occasional outages. Eventually, I'm sure cable/DSL reliability will be indistinguishable from traditional phone services, but we're not quite there yet. In the meantime, it's a risk some are not willing to take, and for good reason. Better have a backup plan available like a cell phone at your disposal. Speaking of cell phone competition, they would give companies like Vonage a real run for their money if they could get their act together and reduce their fixed monthly prices by half, approaching that of Vonage while simultaneously offering equivalent services. Also, sound quality transmitted over cell phones still suck in my opinion. Generally speaking, to get an equivalent fixed priced cell phone service it costs 50 - 60 dollars a month - twice that of Vonage. The only exception might be companies, like Virgin, that sell cell ! phone services on a minute-by-minute pay-as-you go basis. I own a Virgin cell phone. If I want to keep my Virgin cell phone minimally active it costs me approximately seven to eight dollars a month minimum. Not too bad for an emergency back-up system. However, start making phone calls on my Virgin cell phone and those minute-by-minute charges can add up fast! So, for now, it would appear to me that Vonage is the only game in town. It seems to me that companies like Vonage are a perfect example of a disruptive technology in the making. You get the exact same services, (and perhaps even a few extra services) for roughly half the price all the competitors are currently charging. Make the service available, and they will come. While the standard of living for most cable/DSL customers subscribing to a phone service will benefit by switching over to cable companies like Vonage, there will be those who will suffer. What if my brother or his wife is working at SBC. What if they are only three to five years away from retirement. What could happen to them, their retirement packages? No doubt the eventual introduction of a consumer product like a household generator powered by CF, ZPE, or BlackLight power will be MORE disruptive, and probably on an order of several magnitudes greater than changing how we make phone calls. When this eventually happens - fasten your seatbelts. Keep your options open. PS: This is not an endorsement for Vonage. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 19:16:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4P2GKwU008881; Tue, 24 May 2005 19:16:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4P2GB3G008796; Tue, 24 May 2005 19:16:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:16:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006601c560d0$274aba40$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: Fw: Things to ponder Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:19:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C560AE.9E5B80A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C560AE.9E5B80A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageThings to Ponder=20 Here are a few more things to think about that you probably have never = thought about before...=20 What disease did cured ham actually have?=20 How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be = a good idea to put wheels on luggage?=20 Why is it that people say they "slept like a baby" when babies wake up = like every two hours?=20 If a deaf person has to go to court, is it still called a hearing?=20 If you drink Pepsi at work in the Coke factory, will they fire you?=20 Why are you IN a movie, but you're ON TV?=20 Why do people pay to go up tall buildings and then put money in = binoculars to look at things on the ground?=20 Why do we choose from just two people for President and fifty for Miss = America?=20 Why do doctors leave the room while you change? They're going to see you = naked anyway.=20 If a 911 operator has a heart attack, whom does he/she call?=20 Why is "bra" singular and "panties" plural?=20 Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "I think I'll squeeze = these dangly things here, and drink whatever comes out!"=20 Who was the first person to look at an egg come out of a chickens ass = and say "That looks like some good eatin!"?=20 Why do toasters always have a setting that turns the toast into a = charcoal briquette , which no decent human being would eat?=20 Why is there a light in the fridge and not in the freezer?=20 When your photo is taken for your driver's license, why do they tell you = to smile? If you are stopped by the police and asked for your license, = are you going to be smiling?=20 Can a hearse carrying a corpse drive in the carpool lane?=20 Why do people point to their wrist when asking for the time, but don't = point to their crotch when they ask where the bathroom is?=20 If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?=20 Is Disney World the only people trap operated by a mouse?=20 Do the Alphabet song and Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star have the same = tune?=20 Why did you just try singing the two songs above?=20 Why do they call it an asteroid when it's outside the hemisphere, but = call it a hemorrhoid when it's in your butt?=20 Did you ever notice that when you blow in a dog's face, he gets mad at = you,but when you take him for a car ride; he sticks his head out the = window?=20 Do you ever wonder why you gave me your e-mail address in the first = place?=20 ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C560AE.9E5B80A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message Things to Ponder

Here are a few more = things to=20 think about that you probably have never thought about before... =

What=20 disease did cured ham actually have?

How is it that we put man = on the=20 moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on = luggage?=20

Why is it that people say they "slept like a baby" when babies = wake up=20 like every two hours?

If a deaf person has to go to court, is it = still=20 called a hearing?

If you drink Pepsi at work in the Coke = factory, will=20 they fire you?

Why are you IN a movie, but you're ON TV? =

Why do=20 people pay to go up tall buildings and then put money in binoculars to = look at=20 things on the ground?

Why do we choose from just two people for=20 President and fifty for Miss America?

Why do doctors leave the = room=20 while you change? They're going to see you naked anyway.

If a = 911=20 operator has a heart attack, whom does he/she call?

Why is "bra" = singular and "panties" plural?

Who was the first person to look = at a cow=20 and say, "I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here, and drink = whatever=20 comes out!"

Who was the first person to look at an egg come out = of a=20 chickens ass and say "That looks like some good eatin!"?

Why do = toasters=20 always have a setting that turns the toast into a charcoal briquette , = which no=20 decent human being would eat?

Why is there a light in the fridge = and not=20 in the freezer?

When your photo is taken for your driver's = license, why=20 do they tell you to smile? If you are stopped by the police and asked = for your=20 license, are you going to be smiling?

Can a hearse carrying a = corpse=20 drive in the carpool lane?

Why do people point to their wrist = when=20 asking for the time, but don't point to their crotch when they ask where = the=20 bathroom is?

If electricity comes from electrons, does morality = come=20 from morons?

Is Disney World the only people trap operated by a = mouse?=20

Do the Alphabet song and Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star have the = same=20 tune?

Why did you just try singing the two songs above? =

Why do=20 they call it an asteroid when it's outside the hemisphere, but call it a = hemorrhoid when it's in your butt?

Did you ever notice that when = you=20 blow in a dog's face, he gets mad at you,but when you take him for a car = ride;=20 he sticks his head out the window?

Do you ever wonder why you = gave me=20 your e-mail address in the first place?



----------------------- = Headers=20 --------------------------------

------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C560AE.9E5B80A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 24 19:39:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4P2dYwU024583; Tue, 24 May 2005 19:39:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4P2dVdP024549; Tue, 24 May 2005 19:39:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:39:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c560d2$f71c41b0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Disruptive Technology in the making Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:38:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C560A8.F7C237C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C560A8.F7C237C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C560A8.F7C237C0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C560A8.F7C237C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSteven mentions SBC in his comments on Vonage. Vonage is already in = the USA as part owner of the telecon industries. Some actually believe = SBC, Verizon, Cingular and AT&T are competitors. Lets look at them: SBC just bought AT&T, Verizon( the old General = Telephone or later GTE, Cingular is SBC and Atlanta Bell in drag. = Verizon and Vonage are joined at the hip.The CEO's of each are hand = picked by Wall Street ( your local friendly banker named CITI and Chase. = The Texas leg just finished the deal allowing SBC et al to engage in = telecon via tv without control by individual cities in Texas. This means = TimeWarner has a REAL problem along with troubles with AOL. Notice IBM bought a small IT company that has a lock on software for = security for banks, credit cards, defense and security issues. The = interesting part of this news is that the IT company was funded = initially by the CIA.. Hmmm ?? This software is also designed for internet monitors. As the field in telecon narrows it doesn't mean lower costs, the people = that run the industry have a firm hand on the direction. Keep your eyes on SBC,,, they have it going for them and they have a way = of increasing the price.=20 My Cingular wireless( SBC in drag) charges increased. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C560A8.F7C237C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Steven mentions SBC in his comments on Vonage. Vonage is already in = the USA=20 as part owner of the telecon industries. Some actually believe SBC, = Verizon,=20 Cingular and AT&T are competitors.
 
Lets look at them: SBC just bought AT&T, Verizon( the old = General=20 Telephone or later GTE, Cingular is SBC and Atlanta Bell in  drag. = Verizon=20 and Vonage are joined at the hip.The CEO's of each are hand picked by = Wall=20 Street ( your local friendly banker named CITI and Chase.
 
The Texas leg just finished the deal allowing SBC et al to engage = in=20 telecon via tv without control by individual cities in Texas. This means = TimeWarner has a REAL problem along with troubles with AOL.
 
Notice IBM bought a small IT company that has a lock on software = for=20 security  for banks, credit cards, defense and security issues. The = interesting part of this news is that the IT company was funded = initially by the=20 CIA.. Hmmm ??
This software is also designed for internet monitors.
 
As the field in telecon narrows it doesn't mean lower costs, the = people=20 that run the industry have a firm hand on the direction.
Keep your eyes on SBC,,, they have it going for them and they have = a way of=20 increasing the price.
 
My Cingular wireless( SBC in drag) charges increased.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C560A8.F7C237C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C560A8.F7C237C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c560d2$e08c0ac0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C560A8.F7C237C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 01:22:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4P8KdwU025345; Wed, 25 May 2005 01:21:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4P8KZ5f025329; Wed, 25 May 2005 01:20:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 01:20:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=m9WyBFr1FMNjcNQGVjnwJt7qUf/G0Tlj+AAJSpERIh+PNr0tTH/nQms6SJdYamPL; Message-ID: <410-2200553257202500 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Soccerball Fusion of LiD with an Electron Beam Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 02:20:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94046624afab4cd21b6252e565a8fd722f2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.142 Resent-Message-ID: <7WVMMC.A.sLG.TVDlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In February I proposed that an electron beam with 100 Kev energy (more or less) with an electron temperature of about a billion deg K could heat the deuterons in Lithium Deuteride to a comparable temperature, and effect fusion reactions. An electron with 100 Kev velocity of ~ 1.7e8 meters/second (62% of c) can only "donate" a small amount of momentum to a deuteron, but, with the "soccerball effect" of 60 or more successive beam-electron-deuteron collisions, the deuteron can approach the velocity (billion deg K temperature) of a free deuteron with 100 Kev energy at modest electron beam currents and energy densities. A capsule of LiD with a small hole, in a differentially-pumped Electron Beam Welder capable of 100 Kev at a few milliamperes in a millimeter diameter beam (the LiD has a vapor pressure of about 60 Torr at it's ~688 deg K melting point) should tell the story. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

In February I proposed that an electron beam with 100 Kev energy (more or less) with
an electron temperature of about a billion deg K could heat the deuterons in Lithium Deuteride
to a comparable temperature, and effect fusion reactions.
 
An electron with 100 Kev velocity of ~ 1.7e8 meters/second (62% of c) can only "donate"
a small amount of momentum to a deuteron, but, with the "soccerball effect" of 60 or more
successive beam-electron-deuteron collisions, the deuteron can approach the velocity (billion deg K temperature)
of a free deuteron with 100 Kev energy at modest electron beam currents and energy densities.
 
A capsule of LiD with a small hole, in a differentially-pumped Electron Beam Welder capable of 100 Kev at a
few milliamperes in a millimeter diameter beam (the LiD has a vapor pressure of
about 60 Torr at it's ~688 deg K melting point) should tell the story.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 05:16:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PCGlwU000548; Wed, 25 May 2005 05:16:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PCGfVh000518; Wed, 25 May 2005 05:16:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 05:16:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=sUWS2/YkquQSFXrLOORMM0Uel7KYJO+InuYgELeHR1TXKtzdYT+AeRKmxhn4Kk3f; Message-ID: <410-220055325111521750 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Soccerball Fusion of LiD with an Electron Beam Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 06:15:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940edad1447b3de1a88cc6f0ff2853935c0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.216 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Earlier I wrote: > > A capsule of LiD with a small hole, in a differentially-pumped Electron Beam Welder capable > of 100 Kev at a few milliamperes in a millimeter diameter beam (the LiD has a vapor pressure of > about 60 Torr at it's ~688 deg C melting point) should tell the story. > In order to make the soccer game more interesting and the Deuteron target easier to come by, reacting lithium (or other alkali metals) with D2O to get solid lithium hydroxide (LiOD) or NaOD-KOD might be expedient. My "calculations" suggest that the energy gain of the deuteron is a function of the square of the number of Electon-Beam electron-deuteron collisions. IOW. a 100 Kev electron has a momentum of ~ 1.54e-22 kg-meter/sec and can impart up to 20 eV to a deuteron. Hence 100 Kev/20 = 5,000 Hence, (5,000)^1/2 = 71. Thus 71* 1.54e-22 = 1.1e-20 kg-meter/sec which gives the free-space deuteron velocity of 3.3e6 meters/sec as compared with the free-space beam electron velocity of 1.7e8 meters/sec. A deuteron with 3.3e6 meters/sec has a kinetic energy of 113 Kev. Might do something? Frederick Trying to determine the terminal energy/momentum of the deuteron "soccer ball" is a bit cumbersome. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Earlier I  wrote:
>
> A capsule of LiD with a small hole, in a differentially-pumped Electron Beam Welder capable
> of 100 Kev at a few milliamperes in a millimeter diameter beam (the LiD has a vapor pressure of
> about 60 Torr at it's ~688 deg C melting point) should tell the story.
>
In order to make the soccer game more interesting and the Deuteron target easier to come by, reacting
lithium (or other alkali metals) with D2O to get solid lithium hydroxide (LiOD)  or NaOD-KOD might be expedient.
 
My "calculations" suggest that the energy gain of the deuteron is a function
of the square of the number of Electon-Beam electron-deuteron collisions.
 
IOW.  a 100 Kev electron has a momentum of ~ 1.54e-22 kg-meter/sec and can impart up
to 20 eV to a deuteron. Hence 100 Kev/20 = 5,000 
 
Hence, (5,000)^1/2 = 71. Thus 71* 1.54e-22 =  1.1e-20 kg-meter/sec  which gives the free-space deuteron velocity
of 3.3e6 meters/sec as compared with the free-space beam electron velocity of 1.7e8 meters/sec.
 
A deuteron with 3.3e6 meters/sec has a kinetic energy of 113 Kev.
 
Might do something?
 
Frederick
 
Trying to determine the terminal energy/momentum of the deuteron "soccer ball" is a bit cumbersome.
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 07:19:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PEIswU020255; Wed, 25 May 2005 07:18:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PEIrbJ020246; Wed, 25 May 2005 07:18:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 07:18:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Another Craven Energy Maven Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:18:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050525141846.SHFW23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <1FhqdC.A.S8E.NlIlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.06/craven_pr.html "The topic under discussion is Craven's plan to use cold water pumped up from the deep ocean to provide low-cost and environmentally sustainable power, water, and food to a new residential and commercial development in the Marianas, a chain of islands some 3,000 miles to the west. " Uses a "hurricane tower" to create electricity. Why not a Stirling engine? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 07:35:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PEYmwU029396; Wed, 25 May 2005 07:34:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PEYaqx029272; Wed, 25 May 2005 07:34:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 07:34:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42948CF8.3050103 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:34:32 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: orionworks charter.net Subject: Re: Disruptive Technology in the making References: <43vth7$ongr08 mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <43vth7$ongr08 mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: > Speaking of cell phone competition, they would give companies like Vonage a real run for their money if they could get their act together and reduce their fixed monthly prices by half, approaching that of Vonage while simultaneously offering equivalent services. Also, sound quality transmitted over cell phones still suck in my opinion. Generally speaking, to get an equivalent fixed priced cell phone service it costs 50 - 60 dollars a month - twice that of Vonage. > > It's difficult for any conventional phone company -- cell or wire -- to compete on price with an Internet phone company, because the internet phone company doesn't have to pay for its own network. They're, in effect, very heavily subsidized: they send calls over the internet backbone, which is currently free. The situation is perhaps analogous to the competition between trucking companies and railroads. The railroads pay for their own tracks; the trucks run on publicly funded roads. The playing field isn't anywhere close to level. Ditto buses versus passenger rail service, of course. So what's the future of rail service look like in this country? Perhaps that's a harbinger of what will happen to phone companies that must maintain their own private networks rather than piggybacking on the shared public net. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 07:57:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PEuowU007408; Wed, 25 May 2005 07:56:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PEuiAG007318; Wed, 25 May 2005 07:56:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 07:56:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42949231.2070000 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:56:49 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Another Craven Energy Maven References: <20050525141846.SHFW23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050525141846.SHFW23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.06/craven_pr.html > >"The topic under discussion is Craven's plan to use cold water pumped up from the deep ocean to provide low-cost and environmentally sustainable power, water, and food to a new residential and commercial development in the Marianas, a chain of islands some 3,000 miles to the west. " > >Uses a "hurricane tower" to create electricity. Why not a Stirling engine? > > Good question. But what's a "hurricane tower"? Is it a straightforward heat engine or something else? Clearly he needs an efficient heat engine, since he's pretty much dealing with a case of a pure "cold reservoir" and pure "heat reservoir" which have both been brought to the same location -- quite different from the situation with solar towers, for instance, where the energy source is mishmash of the difference in temperature between hot ground and the air high up along with the difference in pressure between the lower and upper atmospheres, and where the two reservoirs are not colocated. But really, regardless of the engine used to convert the temperature difference to electricity, using deep sea cold sounds like an absolutely fabulous idea. It's the only energy source I've heard of that would actually result in global _cooling_ rather than global warming. Downside is that it's using "fossil cold" which seems unlimited today but which might turn out not to be so unlimited if we really started tapping it heavily. The other obvious problem is that it's not available except along the coasts in temperate zones. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 08:24:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PFNrwU021115; Wed, 25 May 2005 08:23:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PFNqEE021103; Wed, 25 May 2005 08:23:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:23:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42949891.2050405 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:24:01 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Another Craven Energy Maven References: <20050525141846.SHFW23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42949231.2070000@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <42949231.2070000 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Terry Blanton wrote: > >> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.06/craven_pr.html >> >> "The topic under discussion is Craven's plan to use cold water pumped >> up from the deep ocean to provide low-cost and environmentally >> sustainable power, water, and food to a new residential and >> commercial development in the Marianas, a chain of islands some 3,000 >> miles to the west. " >> >> Uses a "hurricane tower" to create electricity. Why not a Stirling >> engine? >> >> > Good question. But what's a "hurricane tower"? Ah -- read to the bottom of page, answered my own question. So, he's using low-pressure steam turbines to run generators. Doesn't sound totally unreasonable, though I'm a little surprised you can effectively spin a turbine with such low gas pressures. Stirling engine is the same idea (closed-cycle gas moving through the engine) but it uses pistons instead of turbines. The Stirling engine is able to harness even very small differences in temperature -- a few degrees -- but that's not an issue here -- he's looking at something on the order of a 25 degree F. difference, or so it appears. In that arena, and when scaling up for power generation, turbines may do the job better than a reciprocating engine. To move the idea farther from the equator, one might suppose it could be necessary to switch to a Stirling engine. Anybody here know how the thermodynamic efficiency of a turbine compares with a Stirling engine? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 09:16:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PGFgwU017518; Wed, 25 May 2005 09:15:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PGFeFc017501; Wed, 25 May 2005 09:15:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:15:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <2f4ad0b1-3acc-4ba4-9ba0-3f77c3be1afe> Message-ID: <002301c56144$f78276c0$bc57ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050525141846.SHFW23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42949231.2070000@pobox.com> <42949891.2050405@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Another Craven Energy Maven Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:15:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While tapping colder sea water seems like a 'good idea' be careful. Lots of things work on a small scale, like burning wood, coal and oil. All these on a large scale are causing trouble. The artic ice cap is melting, and the flow of cold fresh water may disturb the Gulf stream, modifying its circulation pattern which is worldwide. England is worried, for it could get *lots* colder. We must look to renewables -- which means solar input one way or another -- or to LENR or BLP or hopefully 'safe' nuclear -- or to very efficient energy utilization, rather than tampering with the ecosystem. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 09:52:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PGqGwU004212; Wed, 25 May 2005 09:52:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PGqESQ004191; Wed, 25 May 2005 09:52:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:52:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Insane Host Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:52:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Here's absolute proof our host is insane: http://amasci.com/~billb/cgi-bin/instr/instr.html#self but this is a trait common to all my friends! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 10:35:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PHZEwU027228; Wed, 25 May 2005 10:35:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PHZCd4027213; Wed, 25 May 2005 10:35:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:35:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Kentucky Hybrids Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:35:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050525173505.WJXT23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not what you think: http://www.toyota.com/about/news/manufacturing/2005/05/17-1-kentucky-hybrid.html "May 17, 2005 - Georgetown, KY - Toyota Motor Manufacturing North America (TMMNA) today announced the company's first North American gas-electric hybrid production will be at its Georgetown, Ky., plant – Toyota Motor Manufacturing, Kentucky, Inc. (TMMK) – when production of a Camry hybrid begins in late 2006." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 10:36:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PHaEwU027754; Wed, 25 May 2005 10:36:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PHa9h4027699; Wed, 25 May 2005 10:36:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:36:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:36:00 -0600 Message-Id: <200505251136.AA612369018 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: , Subject: Re: Another Craven Energy Maven X-Mailer: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah, OTEC returns! I was wondering when this would make a come-back--was reading about it in the 70's and it will supply plenty of energy, though the long term environmental consequences are probably not worked out. Sure enough, oil prices go back up, and old ideas come back out. Kooistra From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 10:39:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PHd9wU029406; Wed, 25 May 2005 10:39:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PHd5cP029363; Wed, 25 May 2005 10:39:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:39:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: The Fifth Age of Sand Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:38:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050525173855.WLTC23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One DNA did not live to see: http://www.wacker.com/internet/noc/Media_Services/Corporate_News/050421_News2/?locale=en_US or http://tinyurl.com/dmpq2 "Munich, April 21, 2005 – WACKER is expanding its polysilicon production in Burghausen by another 2,500 metric tons per year. The Munich-based chemicals Group announced the decision today. Together with last year’s expansion activities already underway, WACKER’s annual production capacity will grow from the present 5,000 metric tons of polysilicon to up to 9,000 metric tons from 2007. This expansion lets WACKER meet the dynamically growing global demand for hyperpure polycrystalline silicon. The rise in demand is mainly attributable to the solar industry, which requires silicon for the manufacture of solar cells. WACKER is investing some EUR 200 million in this expansion and expects to create around 100 new jobs at its Burghausen site as a result. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 10:51:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PHpJwU002864; Wed, 25 May 2005 10:51:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PHpGRx002845; Wed, 25 May 2005 10:51:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:51:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Solar Overdrive Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:51:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050525175108.WRZM23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Three electrons per photon! http://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2005/1805_quantum_dot.html "The findings are further confirmation of pioneering work by Nozik, who in 2000 predicted that quantum dots could increase the efficiency of solar cells, through a process now termed "multiple exciton generation," or "MEG". Last year, Richard Schaller and Victor Klimov of Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico were the first to demonstrate the electron multiplication phenomenon predicted by Nozik, using quantum dots made from lead selenide." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 11:07:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PI6pwU009154; Wed, 25 May 2005 11:06:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PI6oIt009146; Wed, 25 May 2005 11:06:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:06:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: NuNuke Consortium Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:06:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050525180643.XAEH23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: They've narrowed the new sites: http://www.nustartenergy.com particularly: http://www.nustartenergy.com/DisplayArticle.aspx?ID=20050520-1 "NUSTART NEWS RELEASE — Washington — The country’s largest consortium of nuclear power companies today announced it has selected six finalist candidate sites from which it plans to pick two sites for two applications for the first construction and operating licenses of a new advanced nuclear energy plant in 30 years. The sites selected by NuStart Energy Development LLC are: Bellefonte Nuclear Plant in Northeast Alabama, owned by the Tennessee Valley Authority Grand Gulf Nuclear Station, Port Gibson, Miss., owned by Entergy Nuclear River Bend Nuclear Station, St. Francisville, La., also owned by Entergy Savannah River Site, a Department of Energy facility near Aiken, S.C. Calvert Cliffs Nuclear Power Plant in Lusby, Md., owned by Constellation Energy Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station in Scriba, N.Y., owned by Constellation Energy" Nuthin' on the blue coast, Jonesee. Guess you could email your ideas on the staged reaction. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 11:50:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PIoKwU001314; Wed, 25 May 2005 11:50:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PIo9pH001232; Wed, 25 May 2005 11:50:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:50:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4294C8E2.1070101 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:50:10 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host References: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Here's absolute proof our host is insane: > >http://amasci.com/~billb/cgi-bin/instr/instr.html#self > >but this is a trait common to all my friends! > > This little bit from BB, along with the items he links to, actually brings up a fascinating question. It is, however, such a slippery question that (at least) some people are of the opinion that it's not even valid, and that if properly framed it vanishes. The question, of course, is "what is consciousness?". You can ask it of yourself, but you can't really ask anybody else about it, because, as of this moment in time, there is absolutely no way for you to know whether anyone else you meet is actually conscious. You (presumably!) know of your own experience that you are conscious, and that you are aware -- but that proves nothing about any other being. This isn't a trivial question. Assume for the moment that humans are basically alike, and so all of them must be "conscious". Now ask youself if chimpanzees, our closest non-human relatives, are conscious. Then, how about dogs? Cats? Mice? Fish? Cicadas? Cockroaches? How about rotifers? Plants? Amoebas? Did we cross a line there? If so, where was that line? It's easy to assert that the last two can't be conscious because they have no nervous systems, but then, what causes a nervous system to be "conscious"? I have little doubt that neural net programs, running on ever faster hardware with ever larger memory systems, will eventually produce an entity that can pass the Turing test, probably in the next couple decades. Maybe Cyc will do it sooner. Will that entity be "conscious"? I don't think so. But OTOH I know at least one intelligent person who _does_ think so. The fascinating point of all this is that there is, at this time, absolutely no known way to resolve this! The standard copout is "Question is unanswerable => question is meaningless" -- you must have framed it wrong. In this case I think the copout is incorrect: There's something going on in our heads that we haven't tracked down, and, it seems to me, it's something we still have no clue at all about. The day we can imagine how to build a gedanken machine that would reliably detect "consciousness", we will have made some progress in understanding it. Until then discussions of consciousness are likely to remain reminiscent of Greek philosophers discussing the possible existence of "atoms". And until then, it will remain impossible to determine if someone experiencing "dissociation" (or whatever the technical term for that strange state is) has actually lost "consciousness" or is merely feeling weird. (Of course the fundamentalist members of the group no doubt feel they already know the answers. It shouldn't take more than a few seconds to see the problem with that position, however.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 12:21:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PJLdwU021205; Wed, 25 May 2005 12:21:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PJLa9j021186; Wed, 25 May 2005 12:21:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:21:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: More AI musings/ was RE: [OT] Insane Host Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:24:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4294C8E2.1070101 pobox.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Steve, One of my clients holds a few patents in brain imaging technology, and he often asserts "I've looked for that little homunculus far and wide, but could not find him". I suspect something similar with the artificial version of consiousness, it's not something that can be easily put in a box as such. A good example of this is a bee or ant colony; clearly there is a large scale consiousness at work here even if the individual bees or ants seem a bit thick headed. Does the consciousness reside in the bee, or the spaces between the bees? Maybe the question is being phrased too poorly to provide sufficient space for an answer. As regards Bill, he looks more bored than mad to me, and he has good teeth. Who's your dentist, Bill? K. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:50 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host Terry Blanton wrote: >Here's absolute proof our host is insane: > >http://amasci.com/~billb/cgi-bin/instr/instr.html#self > >but this is a trait common to all my friends! > > This little bit from BB, along with the items he links to, actually brings up a fascinating question. It is, however, such a slippery question that (at least) some people are of the opinion that it's not even valid, and that if properly framed it vanishes. The question, of course, is "what is consciousness?". You can ask it of yourself, but you can't really ask anybody else about it, because, as of this moment in time, there is absolutely no way for you to know whether anyone else you meet is actually conscious. You (presumably!) know of your own experience that you are conscious, and that you are aware -- but that proves nothing about any other being. This isn't a trivial question. Assume for the moment that humans are basically alike, and so all of them must be "conscious". Now ask youself if chimpanzees, our closest non-human relatives, are conscious. Then, how about dogs? Cats? Mice? Fish? Cicadas? Cockroaches? How about rotifers? Plants? Amoebas? Did we cross a line there? If so, where was that line? It's easy to assert that the last two can't be conscious because they have no nervous systems, but then, what causes a nervous system to be "conscious"? I have little doubt that neural net programs, running on ever faster hardware with ever larger memory systems, will eventually produce an entity that can pass the Turing test, probably in the next couple decades. Maybe Cyc will do it sooner. Will that entity be "conscious"? I don't think so. But OTOH I know at least one intelligent person who _does_ think so. The fascinating point of all this is that there is, at this time, absolutely no known way to resolve this! The standard copout is "Question is unanswerable => question is meaningless" -- you must have framed it wrong. In this case I think the copout is incorrect: There's something going on in our heads that we haven't tracked down, and, it seems to me, it's something we still have no clue at all about. The day we can imagine how to build a gedanken machine that would reliably detect "consciousness", we will have made some progress in understanding it. Until then discussions of consciousness are likely to remain reminiscent of Greek philosophers discussing the possible existence of "atoms". And until then, it will remain impossible to determine if someone experiencing "dissociation" (or whatever the technical term for that strange state is) has actually lost "consciousness" or is merely feeling weird. (Of course the fundamentalist members of the group no doubt feel they already know the answers. It shouldn't take more than a few seconds to see the problem with that position, however.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 12:50:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PJnwwU003659; Wed, 25 May 2005 12:49:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PJnsV4003630; Wed, 25 May 2005 12:49:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:49:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: More AI musings Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:49:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050525194945.ZICD23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Keith Nagel" > "I've looked for that little homunculus far > and wide, but could not find him". In my continuing tribute to DNA, below is a little anecdote from Richard Dawkins' lament of Adams: 'A man didn't understand how televisions work, and was convinced that there must be lots of little men inside the box, manipulating images at high speed. An engineer explained about high-frequency modulations of the electromagnetic spectrum, transmitters and receivers, amplifiers and cathode ray tubes, scan lines moving across and down a phosphorescent screen. The man listened to the engineer with careful attention, nodding his head at every step of the argument. At the end he pronounced himself satisfied. He really did now understand how televisions work. "But I expect there are just a few little men in there, aren't there?' As all neo-pagans know, every part of Gaia is conscious, even stone: http://www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/ROCKVARNISH.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 13:00:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PK05wU011437; Wed, 25 May 2005 13:00:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PJxwo7011345; Wed, 25 May 2005 12:59:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:59:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4294D93C.7040701 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:59:56 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More AI musings/ was RE: [OT] Insane Host References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8tQMt.A.IxC.9kNlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Steve, > >One of my clients holds a few patents in brain imaging technology, >and he often asserts "I've looked for that little homunculus far >and wide, but could not find him". I suspect something similar with >the artificial version of consiousness, it's not something that >can be easily put in a box as such. A good example of this is a bee >or ant colony; clearly there is a large scale consiousness at work >here even if the individual bees or ants seem a bit thick headed. >Does the consciousness reside in the bee, or the spaces between the bees? >Maybe the question is being phrased too poorly to provide sufficient space >for an answer. > > Or both, for that matter. They've got the neurotransmitters (in the form of pheromones) that make some level of coherent "thought", or at least "emotion", possible for the hive as a whole. The obvious example is what happens when you make one hornet mad and the whole hive comes after you. The one that you ticked off to start with released something that got the other ones going, as a result of which the hive reacted as a single entity. But there aren't any dendrites, no direct high-bandwidth bug-to-bug communication; the multiprocessor here seems very loosely coupled. Furthermore, there's some tantalizing evidence for individual consciousness, or at least self-interest, in both ants and bees. The hardest working ants don't live very long, and ants that spend all their time foraging die rather soon. That isn't especially strange. But what _is_ strange is that individual ants have been observed showing "lazy" behavior -- they will appear to go out foraging, but as soon as they get a few inches from the hill (out of "sight" of their sisters) they stop and flop, and just hang out for a while. Furthermore, there is evidence -- at least for small colonies of ants -- that the foragers aren't doing it voluntarily; they're the ones that got pushed out by the other ants. The inter-ant behavior seems to indicate that ants "prefer" to stay in the hill, and only go out foraging if they are forced to do so; this despite the fact that they all share the same genes and there should be no benefit for an ant to favor its own good over the hive's good. Unfortunately I can't provide a reference for this. I read the bit about "lazy" behavior in a book or article someplace and it's probably well known, but the claim that foragers only do it under pressure from their peers came from studies being done at Harvard by someone I knew slightly and I have no idea whether it's widely known, or if it was even ever published. The ants in question were some south american variety which had colonies which were small enough to study in the lab. Army ants are another interesting one -- I've read that close observation reveals that the vanguard of the army seems very reluctant to proceed, and constantly falls back among the other ants. It _looks_ like it's pressure from the rear which keeps the van moving. Why would the ants in front be reluctant to move forward? Well, maybe it's because the strong instinct which keeps the army together makes all the ants want to follow the other ants -- or maybe it's because being in the vanguard is the riskiest place to be. With regard to bees, many worker bees, given half a chance, will lay eggs. They're normally prevented from accomplishing anything with their eggs by nurses who destroy their eggs rather than let them hatch. I have the impression that worker's eggs always hatch into workers -- no drones, no queens -- but I don't recall where I read that. So it seems to me that one could speculate that the hive is conscious, but the individual cells may be conscious as well. To bad we have no way of testing that speculation! :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 13:08:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PK7nwU017411; Wed, 25 May 2005 13:07:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PK7hJh017355; Wed, 25 May 2005 13:07:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:07:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Fifth Age of Sand Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:07:23 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20050525173855.WLTC23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050525173855.WLTC23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505252207.23927.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin! If you ever have a chance to visit Burghausen, I highly recommend it. It has a castle that you can actually live in if you want. The ownership of the Burghausen castle went back and forth between Germany, France and Austria a number of times. When Napoleon did his tear through Europe, his army could not breach the fortress. He ended up conquering everything around Burghausen, and then just waited until the forces inside the fortress got hungry enough to hand over the keys peacefully. Once inside, the first thing he did was tear down the portions that were giving him so much problem in case he had to take the castle again by force. In modern days, the ownership of the castle was something of a political annoyance. The Austrian government finally handed it back over to the Germans since it was on German soil, and the German government placed it in the hands of the residents of the town of Burghausen. The castle is quite large, and had been sorely neglected for some years, and it was going to cost quite a bit of money to restore, so the town decided to subdivide portions of it, and rent it out to apartment dwellers and boutique owners. I saw an ad in the local paper for an apartment that was coming available, and it wasn't renting for all that much, either. The town also collected a bunch of artwork, antique furniture and old armaments and made two museums and a botanical garden to attract tourist income. I was there a couple of years ago on a very cold, rainy day, and spent nearly the entire day in the art museum. I have been to quite a few museums here in Europe, but what made this one stand apart was the fact that the museum management evidently did not have the resources to properly secure anything. Paintings and statues dating back to the 1200's were just placed in rooms with no glass or plastic coverings, and you could go right up to them and study them in great detail. There were small signs asking you not to touch anything (and I didn't, of course), but there were no visible security guards or cameras. This is quite rare in a modern day museum in a civilized country. They had huge, wall sized oil paintings depicting some of the more famous battles that were almost photorealistic. It was kind of a spooky feeling to see the life size faces of the wounded and dying soldiers, the crazed eyes of the knights' horses, and so on, in the very same place that you were standing 600 years later. The majority of the castle is unchanged. Another weird thing was that none of the rooms had fireplaces. This is in the foothills of the Alps, and I after spending one entire Winter on the shore of the Chiemsee in a tent, I can tell you that it gets pretty darn cold. I am planning another trip down to that area to see some friends in August, and Burghausen is high on my list of things to do again. It was too early in the year the last time I visited to go through the botanical garden, but I have heard that it is fantastic. The other museum holds all of the old armour and armaments that the town could find, and I want to go through that, as well. Who knows, maybe they do tours of the Wacker plant, as well! Burghausen is one of those "best kept secrets" of Europe, despite all of the efforts of the town to get people to visit. Cheers! Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 13:40:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PKdewU005133; Wed, 25 May 2005 13:39:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PKdcBX005100; Wed, 25 May 2005 13:39:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:39:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: One battery would do it Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:39:24 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF558 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: One battery would do it Thread-Index: AcVhadloA8AKrLkAQP6FIuWLmhOdCA== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2005 20:39:32.0374 (UTC) FILETIME=[DB022B60:01C56169] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4PKdYwU004772 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: While a real free energy device would be greatly welcome, it would only take one lesser invention to solve most of our energy and pollution problems. One good battery. With all the overnight excess generating capacity - and cheaper solar cells, society and international politics would be transformed by a better way to make electricity much more portable. With that thought in mind, it was depressing to see so much research in the 70's and 80's go nowhere. Just browse thru some old volumes of the Journal of the Electrochemical Society from that era and you'll see what I mean. Even the much touted ( and still barely commercialized) vanadium redox cell has gone almost nowhere after being developed in 1987, 18 years ago. It's amazing how little has changed since the 'energy crisis' of a quarter century ago. Chrysler praises its "hemi" engine to an audience that doesn't know it's a technology from the end of the 19th century. With us still so dependent on $2+ a gallon gasoline, maybe we could generate current from Tesla spinning in his grave. Oh yeah, and in the 21st century, we still ain't got no flyin' cars, either. Petroleum is like heroin for the economy. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 13:59:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PKxZwU016332; Wed, 25 May 2005 13:59:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PKxXCA016321; Wed, 25 May 2005 13:59:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:59:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Termite Intestinal Fauna Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:59:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050525205927.VZW23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Slow day at the office. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/DyeHard/story?id=786146&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 "Chu, who won the Nobel for physics in 1997, isn't claiming that termites can save the world, as one headline recently screamed. But he does believe that the natural processes that allow termites to turn the hard fabric of plant material — cellulose — into an ethanol-like fuel hold secrets that could lead to cheap, clean-burning and virtually limitless fuel." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 15:02:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PM275n026782; Wed, 25 May 2005 15:02:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PM25N4026763; Wed, 25 May 2005 15:02:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:02:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$12144uk mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,138,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1142035412:sNHT41152276" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: More AI musings/ was RE: [OT] Insane Host Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:01:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" ... > With regard to bees, many worker bees, given half a > chance, will lay eggs. They're normally prevented > from accomplishing anything with their > eggs by nurses who destroy their eggs rather than > let them hatch. I have the impression that worker's > eggs always hatch into workers -- no drones, no queens > -- but I don't recall where I read that. Let Vortex's self-proclaimed armature entomologist (that being me!) answer that mystery for you! I studied ant colonies during my early teen-age years primarily because I was fascinated with the organizational structure of hive-minded life forms. Worker Bees are all daughters belonging to a single queen mother. A fertilized egg, laid by the queen ALWAYS produces a daughter, a female. If the queen bee withholds sperm during the egg laying process a male drone bee is produced. IOW, male bees have no father, which probably explains why they grow up as worthless creatures. Drones produce no useful duties except to mate with a virgin queen. Other than that single-minded purpose male drone bees are a worthless drain on the hive's collective resources, and their sisters promptly expel them at the end of summer to fend for themselves. They are given no allowance. Needless to say they all perish. Worker bees are capable of laying eggs but will most likely be unfertilized. If these unfertilized eggs ever did hatch and grow up they would end up becoming another worthless male drone bee. It's best just to eat them. Queen bees, as we have all been told, are extremely jealous creatures. They will fight to the death any other queen! bee that happens to be in the same hive with them. Queen bees are produced by feeding the newly hatched grubs a special enriched broth called "royal jelly". Otherwise, the grub would grow up as another worker bee. The behavior of royalty within ant colonies is slightly better, though not by much. Again, worthless male drone ants are produced in the exact same manner as they are in bees. They are also expelled at the end of summer. However, the ant colonies that I studied it seemed that all the drones left the nest to pursue hot babe princess ants during the swarming season. Once out of the nest I suspect the drones didn't have a clue how to find their way back after a night out on the town. The newly fertilized queen ants, on the other hand, go off to create their own fatherless families. There is, however, one major difference between bees and ants when it comes to the life-styles of royalty. Certain ant species occasionally allow newly fertilized queen ant daughters to return to the nest - to come back home. Probably a form of insurance. If you gotta be a bug in a future life, chose to be a termite. Termite workers can be both male and female. They are equal opportunity employers. On top of that, during the swarming season male and female termites FIRST seek out their mate. Once they find a partner BOTH sexes cooperate to build a nest together and proceed to raise their brood. Assuming the fledgling termite colony makes it through the initial risky stages the male (king) can expect to live a long life of leisure, occasionally interrupted by generous helpings of food followed by sex with the Missus of the Mound. The Misses, on the other hand, being eternally pregnant and hungry grows and grows. She essentially becomes one huge egg laying factory. Eventually she is unable to move. Fortunately for her, her male partner in life remains loyal. For any male termite king will tell you: Beauty is only skin deep. Getting laid regularly combined with three square meals a day beats the excitement of a risky random affa! ir any day. > So it seems to me that one could speculate that the > hive is conscious, but the individual cells may be > conscious as well. To bad we have no way of testing > that speculation! :-) > Indeed, there is much fertile ground here to speculate on! "Resistance is futile!" Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 15:37:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4PMb85n011443; Wed, 25 May 2005 15:37:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4PMb6Bs011417; Wed, 25 May 2005 15:37:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:37:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar tower seems inefficient Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:36:56 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520101513.03e70570 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050520101513.03e70570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 25 May 2005 22:36:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4PMb15n011321 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 20 May 2005 10:54:24 -0400: Hi Jed, >Something does not add up here. The Australian solar tower will require >10,000 ha to collect enough solar energy for 200 MW. That seems awfully >inefficient. [snip] Australia is mostly desert, and most of that is barely used, if at all. Ideal for a solar tower. We could easily supply tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of sq. km. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 17:29:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4Q0T95n026774; Wed, 25 May 2005 17:29:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4Q0T6dd026746; Wed, 25 May 2005 17:29:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:29:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <4dbcbb5b-3086-47ed-9494-96143e43368d> Message-ID: <005b01c56189$e8424c40$bc57ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF558 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: One battery would do it Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:21:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <7XtC9D.A.2hG.ShRlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A Chris Zell wrote: > > While a real free energy device would be greatly > welcome, it would only take one lesser invention to solve most of our > energy > and pollution problems. > > One good battery. Which is one of the potential products of Blacklight Power technology. Some R&D has been done on battery chemistry based on hydrinos. What you get is high cell potential, tens of volts, and enormous energy density, plus rechargeability. The exact performance depends on the hydrino-purity and the degree of shrinkage (p value). Some of the preliminary work seems to have run into difficulty as the presence of the hydrinos seem to upset other elements necessary. Very little is being published about this. Until there are a lot of operating BLP power units producing hydrinos as end products, the battery research is just that, finding chemistry that works. Before this technology makes any impact, there has to be very substantial quantities of standardized hydrinos available. Then you may see batteries the size of attache cases that can drive a car hundreds of miles. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 19:35:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4Q2ZR5n002289; Wed, 25 May 2005 19:35:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4Q2ZLID002264; Wed, 25 May 2005 19:35:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:35:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:35:19 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host In-Reply-To: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: References: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 25 May 2005, Terry Blanton wrote: > Here's absolute proof our host is insane: > > http://amasci.com/~billb/cgi-bin/instr/instr.html#self The entry in question was written after at least one hour of typing several pages of random autobiographical material without reference to the personal pronoun. The writing was part of an unmailed letter directed to the local expert on "self," Dr. R. Kohlenberg at the U. of Washington (search: http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22functional+analytic+psychotherapy%22+%2Bkohlenberg ) At the time, the typing became increasingly effortless and blazingly fast, with thoughts appearing on the page without prior internal english/verbal expression, and the strange errors to be noted by the reader appeared intentional/appropriate, as if the words were being translated from some foreign language, therefore they were left uncorrected. At the presentmoment, after just a few seconds of similar "self"-less typing mode, the old familiar feeling returns, and the huge and cold thing which is not "I" begins to take over the keyboard. It notes that the psychological process designated "kindling" has a high probability of applying in this situation; where prior experience of an altered (or even psychotic) mental state will tend to "burn grooves in the mind" and cause future episodes of similar states to become easily accessible or even spontaneous. Such a process is the origin of LSD flashbacks as well as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and can be usefully employed in amateur attempts at "psychic channeling," although the "channeled entity" most often is a hidden aspect of the individual performing the no-self typing technique. Many religious practices involve attempts to move the "everyday self" out of the way in order that other less materialistic-oriented subpersonalities may take control of the bus. As a "not-doing" practice, the writing of text with intentional elimination of the personal pronoun is neither original nor unusual, although every inventor who taps into the primary creative source will typically ascribe the new idea to their own expertise, i.e. the "I" takes credit for novelties which in fact randomly washed up on the shore dividing the personal self from the regions of larger unexplored obscurity within. The experimenter merely needs to figuratively gaze downwards while beachcombing. Whew, I gotta quit doing this stuff. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 19:41:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4Q2fM5n005786; Wed, 25 May 2005 19:41:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4Q2fLE2005766; Wed, 25 May 2005 19:41:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:41:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:41:19 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New forum: SSE (Society for Scientific Exploration) In-Reply-To: <005b01c56189$e8424c40$bc57ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF558 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <005b01c56189$e8424c40$bc57ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The SSE has finally created an online discussion group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSE/ "While the public is welcome to join, only members of the SSE will be able to post or participate in SSE activities." Membership in SSE currently costs $75 (you receive six issues per year of their professional journal the JSE) http://www.scientificexploration.org/join.php (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 22:38:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4Q5ce5n022200; Wed, 25 May 2005 22:38:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4Q5cclP022182; Wed, 25 May 2005 22:38:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:38:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y6m0Duf+hRIO1bQuRAyFLHH/6LFS4boKzrOJ8JBVdiIwGrof1HKJXOyYlJx8OwfPZbJgEL5upfFSryVenBTCC/6hNSAc8/zyTShYXB517EMIgGmrWiAJgzlfWXvjypkGaJWcp8YcYXz/5mPkewcH6Fiiw4AtGza5OEtV88HSFdk= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:38:31 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New forum: SSE (Society for Scientific Exploration) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF558 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <005b01c56189$e8424c40$bc57ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4Q5ca5n022120 Resent-Message-ID: <4V1-sB.A.eaF.eDWlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: wow. 40 dollar discount for us students. nice. On 5/25/05, William Beaty wrote: > > > > The SSE has finally created an online discussion group: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSE/ > > > "While the public is welcome to join, only members of the SSE will be able > to post or participate in SSE activities." > > > > > > Membership in SSE currently costs $75 (you receive six issues per year of > their professional journal the JSE) > > http://www.scientificexploration.org/join.php > > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed May 25 22:40:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4Q5eZ5n023584; Wed, 25 May 2005 22:40:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4Q5e8sN023280; Wed, 25 May 2005 22:40:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:40:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=saUjQ7TjA2B6lErKUnuVMy6m8Y9BAOoFlc15pqb+5OiUuM2xzrep/Y0uDM9I4xK3DsyhwjblVe3WrKaq+xGwP8dJlYxrTKKpxploaqAVtGoIdYzMuj7qZxMQAA8QXCUgGuHr5nQpZ8xiRMN/f8kINBbwMrM4iZFTWR/8K1hU/Is= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:39:49 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4Q5dt5n023088 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: your a better man than i gunga din. i already know what lurks in my unconcious, and im to afraid to give it an outlet even that small. On 5/25/05, William Beaty wrote: > On Wed, 25 May 2005, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Here's absolute proof our host is insane: > > > > http://amasci.com/~billb/cgi-bin/instr/instr.html#self > > > The entry in question was written after at least one hour of typing > several pages of random autobiographical material without reference to the > personal pronoun. The writing was part of an unmailed letter directed to > the local expert on "self," Dr. R. Kohlenberg at the U. of Washington > (search: http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22functional+analytic+psychotherapy%22+%2Bkohlenberg ) > > At the time, the typing became increasingly effortless and blazingly fast, > with thoughts appearing on the page without prior internal english/verbal > expression, and the strange errors to be noted by the reader appeared > intentional/appropriate, as if the words were being translated from some > foreign language, therefore they were left uncorrected. > > At the presentmoment, after just a few seconds of similar "self"-less > typing mode, the old familiar feeling returns, and the huge and cold thing > which is not "I" begins to take over the keyboard. It notes that the > psychological process designated "kindling" has a high probability of > applying in this situation; where prior experience of an altered (or even > psychotic) mental state will tend to "burn grooves in the mind" and cause > future episodes of similar states to become easily accessible or even > spontaneous. Such a process is the origin of LSD flashbacks as well as > Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and can be usefully employed in amateur > attempts at "psychic channeling," although the "channeled entity" most > often is a hidden aspect of the individual performing the no-self typing > technique. Many religious practices involve attempts to move the > "everyday self" out of the way in order that other less > materialistic-oriented subpersonalities may take control of the bus. As a > "not-doing" practice, the writing of text with intentional elimination of > the personal pronoun is neither original nor unusual, although every > inventor who taps into the primary creative source will typically ascribe > the new idea to their own expertise, i.e. the "I" takes credit for > novelties which in fact randomly washed up on the shore dividing the > personal self from the regions of larger unexplored obscurity within. > The experimenter merely needs to figuratively gaze downwards while > beachcombing. > > > > Whew, I gotta quit doing this stuff. > > > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 01:44:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4Q8iEF7032751; Thu, 26 May 2005 01:44:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4Q8i6Wt032703; Thu, 26 May 2005 01:44:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 01:44:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 03:43:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Lament for space Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: And Ed Storms responded >to people who do not share this model, including working hard to >bring about the "rapture". First of all the name of the enent is the End of the Times, we are in phase one of the four stages of the Birth Pains of the Messiah. No human, other than the Mad Mullahs, has the power to bring about the next phase of the Birth Pains. The scenario began with the return of the Jews to Israel. It was exasperated by petro dollars flowing into the Middle east. The coming world leader who will make a peace treaty can be argued to just following the human inclination to make peace. As for Christians being correct, our beliefs are based on the Bible, which is the inerrorant word of G-d and IMHO, Bible Code proves it. I was watching PBS last evening. It featured a segment of a brave reporter who was following a group of UN inspectors who were looking over Iran's nuclear facilities. The country floats on oil, but the Mad Mullahs insist that they need atomic power too. Their intention is to destroy Israel of course. But they also mentioned giving America a bloody nose. The Islamists declared war against us, not vice versa. >The problem is how you define evil. My definition is based on the Bible. English Common Law is based on Torah. In the countries which have a legal system based on the British System, the governments are by in large democracies, and the rights of the individual are respected. Democracies don't attack each other. > Bush thinks Iran and North Korea are evil. >Dah, they are evil. North Korea is starving and torturing it's >citizens, and what are they doing with their money? Building missels >and atom bombs, and supporting Kim Jung Il, in luxury and keeping >him supplied with porn videos. >Belief is not black and white. I disagree, either the Bible is what it claims to be, or it isn't. What it claims is that a Holy G-d set it up. Unfortunately his choir director rebelled against him, and introduced sin into his creation. The rest of the book reveals his plan to restore holiness to his creation. IMHO, Bible Code is proof of the book's divine authorship. see, http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/296 , which resulted when a Coder transliterated tsunami into Hebrew. Lots of details, including the date are encoded. with regards to my belief that this planetary system is the only place with sentient entities who have free will. >I know this is your belief, but why? What is the evidence? Even on >this planet, we are learning that the dolphin may be as sentient as >we are. It would seem that your belief is an example of self >justification based on ignorance. I got the idea from the Hasidic Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzok. We have the mental equivalent of a virus loose in this planetary system, called sin. It can't be allowed to spread. As for dolphins being sentient, let me know if anyone teaches one sign language. I have no opinion about Koko the Gorilla. >I agree, this is a problem. However, I define sin and evil >differently than you do. Unfortunately, because I don't use God as >justification for my definitions, you are free to ignore my >definitions. You'll have to admit that between the two religions, the petro dollars, our immoral cultural elite, and the state of Israel, the whole thing looks like to was intended to blow up, eh? >risk of life? Have not the answers given the present religions a >better understanding of what God wants? When should we stop asking >questions? It appears to me, that we have a ruling class which is either insane or Satanists. Based on out discussions of wind and tidal power and our own fossil fuel reserves , it appears that we could have achieved energy independence, but instead we flooded the Islamists with billions of dollars. Based on their writings the ruling class planned this war. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 01:45:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4Q8iYF7000414; Thu, 26 May 2005 01:44:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4Q8iQ1H000337; Thu, 26 May 2005 01:44:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 01:44:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 03:44:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: Lament for space Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Thomas, > > >But then I see your comments, specifically your belief about "sentient life" >and then I realize: > >Why in the hell would ANY of them want to come down and chat with any of us >for a spell. > >Certainly not with you. > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson If they are what I think they are, we can count our blessings that we've never seen one. It has been reported that they don't contact Christians, I don't know why they haven't contacted you. As for why they would like to chat, their agenda is to spread lies. If you go to any UFO gathering you will hear the same sort of New Age nonsense, chief of which is that all religions lead to G-d and that the Space Brothers are here to help us. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 03:07:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QA7PF7004225; Thu, 26 May 2005 03:07:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QA7Huv004180; Thu, 26 May 2005 03:07:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 03:07:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:07:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Mathias Bage X-X-Sender: mathias viggo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host In-Reply-To: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: References: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2ktxTB.A.MBB.U_ZlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 25 May 2005, Terry Blanton wrote: > Here's absolute proof our host is insane: > > http://amasci.com/~billb/cgi-bin/instr/instr.html#self > > but this is a trait common to all my friends! > > > > > > In northern Sweden (my home country), many people speak of themselves as "one" instead of "me" or "I". This quirk almost never shows up in writing, though. I think it comes from poor self-esteem. /Mathias From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 05:03:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QC3KF7026593; Thu, 26 May 2005 05:03:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QC3H7I026570; Thu, 26 May 2005 05:03:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 05:03:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c561ea$df4304c0$b7037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Bismuth Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:03:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C561C0.F5DBB940"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1M-U1B.A.GfG.FsblCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C561C0.F5DBB940 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C561C0.F5DBB940" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C561C0.F5DBB940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHeard a radio news report that a store reported many cases of a = common anti-acid were stolen.. Pepto-Bismul. The reporter was speculating on why, understanding the trend in stealing = common cold remedies for use in brewing " crack", the burglars would steal Pepto-Bismul ? Unless, of course, they ate too = much TexMex food. Hmmm?=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C561C0.F5DBB940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Heard a radio news report that a store reported many cases of a = common=20 anti-acid were stolen.. Pepto-Bismul.
The reporter was speculating on why, understanding the trend in = stealing=20 common cold remedies for use in brewing " crack",
the burglars would steal Pepto-Bismul ? Unless, of course, they ate = too=20 much TexMex food.
 
Hmmm?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C561C0.F5DBB940-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C561C0.F5DBB940 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c561ea$dea712e0$b7037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C561C0.F5DBB940-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 05:47:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QClUF7014799; Thu, 26 May 2005 05:47:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QClRUQ014781; Thu, 26 May 2005 05:47:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 05:47:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 8:47:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050526124721.KYNX9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: William Beaty > Whew, I gotta quit doing this stuff. It's cheaper than peyote buttons, unless you pick it yourself. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 06:24:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QDOBF7032423; Thu, 26 May 2005 06:24:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QDO76E032364; Thu, 26 May 2005 06:24:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:24:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c561f6$0d086430$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:23:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C561BB.604F1020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4ROH0C.A.k5H.03clCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C561BB.604F1020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mathias Bage writes, > In northern Sweden (my home country), many people speak of themselves = as=20 > "one" instead of "me" or "I". This quirk almost never shows up in=20 > writing, though. I think it comes from poor self-esteem. =20 Interesting cultural note... and perhaps it is a bit more admirable (if = not accurate) of an outlook on life, in the larger-perspective, than you = assuming.=20 This "depersonalization" in language is countered in France, taking the = other extreme, by the common use of "tout le monde" (all the world) to = apply to any small assemblage. To the French, and it is not unreasonable = for a "superior" culture, one might surmise... ;-) all that really = matters to the individual is those who are nearby... "tout de suite"... Jones ...or else, given recent results, it is not unexpected for one "Se = mettre le doigt dans l'oeil" ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C561BB.604F1020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mathias Bage writes,
 
> In northern Sweden (my home = country), many=20 people speak of themselves as
> "one" instead of "me" or = "I".  This=20 quirk almost never shows up in
> writing, though.  I think = it comes=20 from poor self-esteem.
 
Interesting cultural note... and = perhaps it is a=20 bit more admirable (if not accurate) of an outlook on life, in the=20 larger-perspective, than you assuming.
 
This "depersonalization" in=20 language is countered in France, taking the other = extreme, by the=20 common use of "tout le monde" (all the world) to apply to any small = assemblage.=20 To the French, and it is not unreasonable for a "superior" culture, one = might=20 surmise... ;-)  all that really matters to the individual is those = who are=20 nearby... "tout de suite"...
 
Jones
 
...or = else, given=20 recent results, it is not unexpected for=20 one "Se mettre le doigt dans = l'oeil" 
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C561BB.604F1020-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 06:34:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QDYEF7009255; Thu, 26 May 2005 06:34:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QDYCic009237; Thu, 26 May 2005 06:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:34:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003701c561f7$996756b0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001201c561ea$df4304c0$b7037841 xptower> Subject: Re: Bismuth Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:34:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C561BC.ECA465B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C561BC.ECA465B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0034_01C561BC.ECA465B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0034_01C561BC.ECA465B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHmm... crashed aliens in Texas looking for bismuth to repair their = superconductors...?? Wonder why they didn't do go for the high-volume source? (probably the = alien browsers do not work well on our internet)... BTW, this is = considered to be a huge ecological sacrifice (among the NRA crowd in = fair-game country) http://www.cabelas.com/information/HuntingOptics/BismuthNo-ToxShotshells0= 027316.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 Heard a radio news report that a store reported many cases of a common = anti-acid were stolen.. Pepto-Bismul. The reporter was speculating on why, understanding the trend in = stealing common cold remedies for use in brewing " crack", the burglars would steal Pepto-Bismul ? Unless, of course, they ate = too much TexMex food. Hmmm?=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0034_01C561BC.ECA465B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hmm... crashed aliens in Texas looking for bismuth to repair their=20 superconductors...??
 
Wonder why they didn't do go for the high-volume source? (probably = the=20 alien browsers do not work well on our internet)... BTW, this = is considered=20 to be a huge ecological sacrifice (among the NRA crowd in fair-game=20 country)
http://www.cabelas.com/information/HuntingOptics/Bis= muthNo-ToxShotshells0027316.html
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20

Heard a radio news report that a store reported many cases of a = common=20 anti-acid were stolen.. Pepto-Bismul.
The reporter was speculating on why, understanding the trend in = stealing=20 common cold remedies for use in brewing " crack",
the burglars would steal Pepto-Bismul ? Unless, of course, they = ate too=20 much TexMex food.
 
Hmmm?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0034_01C561BC.ECA465B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C561BC.ECA465B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003201c561f7$9900ccb0$6801a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C561BC.ECA465B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 06:43:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QDhcF7015223; Thu, 26 May 2005 06:43:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QDhZr1015186; Thu, 26 May 2005 06:43:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:43:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003c01c561f8$e941e280$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050525180643.XAEH23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: NuNuke Consortium Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:43:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes... > They've narrowed the new sites: > > http://www.nustartenergy.com This is really infuriating ! to think they are going to spend all that money on a brain-dead design, and already antiquated and unsafe technology... to quote the experts on the official "wall" of ignorance... ...is there anybody in there? ....and as for lessons "unlearned," remember this... http://www.itc.org/wcl98/wcl_a4.htm (go down to Box 2.4) Lessons Learned 1.. The federal government should not be the primary source of funding for energy commercialization demonstration projects. Funding should be dominated by the potential industrial beneficiaries of the demonstrated technology. Massive Federal funding of megaprojects galvanizes legislative, bureaucratic, and regional champions of the projects to a level beyond the point of productivity or economic justification and invites federal interference in project management. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 07:01:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QE1eF7024289; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:01:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QE1bSG024260; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:01:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:01:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005301c561fb$6c453e50$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050525180643.XAEH23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <003c01c561f8$e941e280$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: NuNuke Consortium Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:01:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Opps... or in keeping with the subject mater, should I have said whoops... (as in 'oops in the Pacific Northwest,' where they really know how to fu'up big time... in a dam-bad way, so to speak... as in "forget the grand-coulee," lets show-em how we can ruin a dam good thing...) ...that prior post went out before I added that.... despite this looking like a "private plan," the Department of Energy created the "Nuclear Power 2010" program to encourage the construction of advanced nuclear plants by the same morons that got us into this mess in the first place, mainly General Electric and Westinghouse, by offering to share half the cost.... It looks to me like more of the same high level hegemony, and the tax-and-rate payers, will be the ones who foot the bill in the long run... (Ha, my original, poetic-justice-spelling mistake was caught this time "long run" instead of "long ruin") Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 07:18:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QEI0F7003590; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:18:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QEHtGw003516; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:17:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:17:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4295DA84.2040203 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:17:40 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host References: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty wrote: >On Wed, 25 May 2005, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > >>Here's absolute proof our host is insane: >> >>http://amasci.com/~billb/cgi-bin/instr/instr.html#self >> >> > > >The entry in question was written after at least one hour of typing >several pages of random autobiographical material without reference to the >personal pronoun. The writing was part of an unmailed letter directed to >the local expert on "self," Dr. R. Kohlenberg at the U. of Washington >(search: http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22functional+analytic+psychotherapy%22+%2Bkohlenberg ) > >At the time, the typing became increasingly effortless and blazingly fast, >with thoughts appearing on the page without prior internal english/verbal >expression ... > > Pretty astonishing. Having experienced dissociated/detached states involuntarily on a handful of occasions some years back, I find it hard to conceive of anyone intentionally attempting to get into such a state -- it wasn't something I wanted to repeat. Whoever was "at the wheel" at that time never said or did anything unexpected but I always had the feeling that he might. At the time I suspected the effect was illusory -- something in some feedback loop had gone numb so it didn't "feel like" "I" was doing things even though "I" was -- but after reading of your experience I'm not so sure. The tricky part, of course, is getting back out of such a state! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 07:38:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QEbnF7018586; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:37:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QEbjGR018557; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:37:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:37:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:37:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050526143739.NEFO9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <57xv1C.A.4hE.58dlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Mathias Bage > In northern Sweden (my home country), many people speak of themselves as > "one" instead of "me" or "I". This quirk almost never shows up in > writing, though. I think it comes from poor self-esteem. Or successful eradication of the ego. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 07:41:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QEf3F7020464; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:41:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QEf0Yw020414; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:41:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:41:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Bismuth Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:40:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050526144049.NFXT9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "RC Macaulay" Heard a radio news report that a store reported many cases of a common anti-acid were stolen.. Pepto-Bismul. The reporter was speculating on why, understanding the trend in stealing common cold remedies for use in brewing " crack", the burglars would steal Pepto-Bismul ? Bismuth is diamagnetic and used to build UFOs. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 07:58:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QEwTF7029182; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:58:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QEwRtu029167; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:58:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:58:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4295E408.1000401 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:58:16 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lament for space References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > either the Bible is what it claims to be, or it isn't. What it claims > is that a Holy G-d set it up. Ah, an interesting assertion: the Bible is what _it_ (the Bible) claims to be. Where, Thomas, does the Bible say that the Bible itself (the _whole_ Bible) is the word of God? Where, Thomas, does it say, in the Bible, in the holy writings of God, exactly which _books_ should be in the Bible and which should not? This was the topic of some heated discussions a few centuries back. Perhaps you have a definitive answer, attained by some direct means, rather than one arrived at by a committee? Surely if the Bible claims that God "set it up" then it must say what "it" is, somewhere, must it not? Where, in the Bible, does it say that the original manuscripts, all copies, and all translations of those 66 books are, and shall always be, error-free? Please name the passage, because I am not familiar with it. Hmmm -- I notice that the Douay bible seems to include some books that the KJV does not. Interesting. One of them must be ... wrong, eh? I wonder which? Where does the Bible say that, for instance, Maccabees, Tobit, the Prayer of Mannassah, and Enoch should not be part of the canon, but the Revelation of John, the letter of Jude, the book of Proverbs, and the Song of Songs _should_ be? Are you familiar with the term "antilegomena"? The very existence of such a word would seem to have some implications regarding the precision with which we know what should and shouldn't be in the Bible. For that matter, regarding the OT, what do you believe _is_ the correct source of the old testament Bible? The Masoretic Text, or the Septuagint? And why do you choose the one you do? (They're not identical, so if the Bible is exactly correct it can't be properly represented by _both_ of them -- you must pick one.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 07:59:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QEwxF7029469; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:58:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QEwueS029430; Thu, 26 May 2005 07:58:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:58:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: NuNuke Consortium Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:58:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050526145847.NPWR9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > This is really infuriating ! to think they are going to spend all > that money on a brain-dead design, and already antiquated and > unsafe technology... feedback nustartenergy.com If you won't, may I send them your post on the safe, staged reactor? > to quote the experts on the official "wall" of ignorance... > ...is there anybody in there? Don't be surprised when a crack in the ice Appears under your feet. You slip out of your depth and out of your mind With your fear flowing out behind you As you claw the thin ice. > ....and as for lessons "unlearned," remember this... > http://www.itc.org/wcl98/wcl_a4.htm > (go down to Box 2.4) > > Lessons Learned > 1.. The federal government should not be the primary source of > funding for energy commercialization demonstration projects. Call me a cynic but I find #5 hilarious: 'Although federally funded projects cannot be insulated from political interference and “second-guessing,” the government should resist making politically determined decisions that compromise the justified continuation or cancellation of energy projects. ' And we'll bask in the shadow Of yesterday's triumph, And sail on the steel breeze. Come on you boy child, You winner and loser, Come on you miner for truth and delusion, and shine! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 08:23:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QFMxp0008810; Thu, 26 May 2005 08:23:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QFMu4W008777; Thu, 26 May 2005 08:22:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:22:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007f01c56206$c9aa8a90$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050526145847.NPWR9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Re: NuNuke Consortium Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:22:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry . >> This is really infuriating ! to think they are going to spend >> all >> that money on a brain-dead design, and already antiquated and >> unsafe technology... > feedback nustartenergy.com > If you won't, may I send them your post on the safe, staged > reactor? Have at it, or rather.... let me post a slgihtly improved version tommorrow, first... if that is, I don't slip while claying at that block of ice... Maybe it will become part of DoE thinking for the next NuddleStart Energy project, you know, the one which appears about 2050, after the previous power-source for the Matrix succumbs to old age ... whoops ...if we make it past 2012, that is.... Jones BTW, amid the strange reverberations coming from "which one is 'pink'...?"... still as aesthetically-pleasing today as it was way-back-when.... I wonder why they didn't consider - as a location for the thing, the old CRBR site... which as I understand it, has the most of the orignianl reinforced concrete structure still standing and never used.... or, perhaps... since that one only wasted a couple of hundred million, they felt it was not a big enough "sacrifice' for the taxpayer to make? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 08:55:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QFtCp0028474; Thu, 26 May 2005 08:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QFtASN028464; Thu, 26 May 2005 08:55:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:55:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: NuNuke Consortium Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:55:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050526155503.OUAS9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <1NtZ7B.A.s8G.eFflCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Maybe it will become part of DoE thinking for the next NuddleStart > Energy project, you know, the one which appears about 2050, after > the previous power-source for the Matrix succumbs to old age ... > > whoops ...if we make it past 2012, that is.... Sometimes you are sooofugginfunny! Usually, actually. > BTW, amid the strange reverberations coming from "which one is > 'pink'...?"... still as aesthetically-pleasing today as it was > way-back-when.... 1972: Bose 901s, 600W Phase Linear, Thorens turntable, 10 x 12 dorm room w/ DSOTM peaking the meters, black Vietnamese doobie, nacho cheese Doritos, 120+ dBa, Strohs from S. Carolina, psyllies from S. Georgia, Haight Ashbury microdots, and buttons from N. Mexico . . . aaahhhhh. "Breathe . . ." "Ten years have got behind you (pop) Ten years have got behind you (pop) Ten years . . ." > I wonder why they didn't consider - as a location for the thing, > the old CRBR site... which as I understand it, has the most of the > orignianl reinforced concrete structure still standing and never > used.... or, perhaps... since that one only wasted a couple of > hundred million, they felt it was not a big enough "sacrifice' for > the taxpayer to make? :-) Is there room for refineries AND reactors on all those Milbases? In A.D. 2101 War was beginning. Captain: What happen ? Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb. Operator: We get signal. Captain: What ! Operator: Main screen turn on. Captain: It's You !! Cats: How are you gentlemen !! Cats: All your base are belong to us. Cats: You are on the way to destruction. Captain: What you say !! Cats: You have no chance to survive make your time. Cats: HA HA HA HA .... Captain: Take off every 'zig' !! Captain: You know what you doing. Captain: Move 'zig'. Captain: For great justice. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/02/22/all_your_base_are_belong/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 09:21:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QGLbp0011414; Thu, 26 May 2005 09:21:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QGLL5J011271; Thu, 26 May 2005 09:21:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:21:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vtj8$sht5n5 mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,140,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="958306021:sNHT15668878" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: RE: Lament for space Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:21:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: thomas malloy ... > If they are what I think they are, we can count > our blessings that we've never seen one. It has been > reported that they don't contact Christians, I don't > know why they haven't contacted you. As for why > they would like to chat, their agenda is to spread > lies. If you go to any UFO gathering you will hear the > same sort of New Age nonsense, chief of which is that > all religions lead to G-d and that the Space > Brothers are here to help us. Hi Thomas, Your perceptions on this matter are both rare and priceless. I have personally attended many UFO conventions. Science Fiction conventions as well. At UFO conventions there are some who believe "aliens" are our Space Brothers. Such opinions are, however, just one of many beliefs expressed at UFO conventions. You appear to be highly selective in which group and belief system you want to focus on in order to maintain a belief that UFOs are apparently piloted by nasty creatures that do not have our best interests at heart. You also tell us "it has been reported that they don't contact Christians." IMHO, whomever you're listening to that is giving you these little gems of insight is doing you a great disservice. It is both inaccurate and misleading. I would suggest that you not consider yourself safe from UFO contact just because you believe you are a true practicing Christian, or whatever. From what I've seen, and the many individuals whom I've personally talked to, those who have seen UFOs and/or actually had closer encounters walk the entire, and I mean THE ENTIRE spectrum, of belief systems and religious practices. This includes practicing Christians. Quite frankly, I don't know who is piloting UFOs. I can only go on the premise that if I personally were piloting one of these crafts I would stay clear of those whom believe that true practicing Christians are never contacted. I would avoid contact with such individuals, not because my will-less soul was in league with Dark Side of the Force and therefore would not survive very long in close proximity of their protected divine radiance. I would avoid them because, morally and ethically, I would not want it on my soul knowing that any attempt on my part to communicate rationally with these individuals would likely shatter their carefully constructed belief systems where much of their identity teeters precariously at the tip of a foundation built on sifting sand. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 09:53:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QGqjp0028411; Thu, 26 May 2005 09:52:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QGqfBh028366; Thu, 26 May 2005 09:52:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:52:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4295FECD.3080502 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:52:29 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lament for space References: <4295E408.1000401@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <4295E408.1000401 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > the Prayer of Mannassah, ... er ... the Prayer of Manasseh. 'Scuse my bad spelling. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 10:16:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QHFqp0012564; Thu, 26 May 2005 10:15:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QHFo9v012526; Thu, 26 May 2005 10:15:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:15:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b101c56216$8d7cdc20$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050526155503.OUAS9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: NuNuke Consortium Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:15:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry... Hey... thanks for the nostalgic flashback... been there, done that... a few years ahead of that particular star-date ... yet somehow we have postponed the Great Gig in the Sky... ...only to see that grammatically disturbed phrase repeated anywhere and everywhere you go. All your bases are nothing but places. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but some day... and soon. It has become, ladies and gentlemen, a cult. A Net-based cult, sure, and if you think that's the end of it, you are sadly deluded. ...like the most of us are. Jones I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us are... very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not ... mad... A momentary lapse of reason...one slip, a restless eye across a wary room, A fleeting glance, a longing look and you are on the road to ruin... - with dark apologies From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 11:11:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QIAdp0009961; Thu, 26 May 2005 11:10:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QIAZLO009920; Thu, 26 May 2005 11:10:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:10:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=W04sWfpKDb5htOuZHqPeOn3ZX/b4R74baJ5muLoN1l0k8EDF/UUiEg+ssL3uFOAE6+orFNrFHAgndac1Kmr9gzY65+hQAWNOAIIAdDC6HXEAJaCAFwKi2X6vOmrgu7w/54/O6I07jjbsG4nnXWEIEG1YuR+vRDSBCRVbC/FSdDY= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:10:24 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bismuth In-Reply-To: <20050526144049.NFXT9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050526144049.NFXT9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4QIATp0009845 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: probably fuel. On 5/26/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > > From: "RC Macaulay" Heard a radio news report that a store reported many cases of a common anti-acid were stolen.. Pepto-Bismul. > The reporter was speculating on why, understanding the trend in stealing common cold remedies for use in brewing " crack", > the burglars would steal Pepto-Bismul ? > > Bismuth is diamagnetic and used to build UFOs. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 12:27:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QJQjp0025805; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:26:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QJQgS7025778; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:26:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:26:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: NuNuke Consortium Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:26:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050526192633.SRFJ9550.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Terry... > > Hey... thanks for the nostalgic flashback... been there, done > that... a few years ahead of that particular star-date ... yet > somehow we have postponed the Great Gig in the Sky... As you are, without doubt, enjoying your lox, you will find that DNA once played rhythm with pinkie: http://www.nndb.com/people/731/000023662/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 12:57:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QJvKp0009872; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:57:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QJvEWW009817; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:57:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:57:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011301c5622d$15b549e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT : Neologists Anonymous, 12 steps to fatuity Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:57:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Once again, The Washington Post has published the winning submissions in its yearly contest, which I forgot to enter, once again. In revenge for not having been notified well in advance (would Tour-D-F forget to remind Lance?)... this is my far-mot-juste revision of same. 1. Coffee (n.), cough-recipient 2. Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over recent change-in-girth 3. Willy-nilly (adj.), in need of Viagra 4. Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp like Kaiser Soze 5. Flatulence (n.) emergency vehicle which runs-you-over 6. Balderdash (n.), a hairline receding faster than Donald Trump's charisma. 7. Testicle (n.), a humorous question on an proctology exam. 8. Rectitude (n.), the suggested treatment following failure of the above exam. 9. Pokemon (n), the Rastafarian proctologist of 7 & 8 10. Circumvent (n.), an opening in the front of boxer shorts worn by certain men. 11. Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, until you realizing it was your money to begin with. 12. Bozone (n.): The aura surrounding Fall-well and other bigots, which keeps all light from penetrating. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 14:24:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QLO5p0001498; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:24:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QLNt4i001404; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:23:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:23:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Gt0df7khXBLZZjkZcHvtBkjCmGCoswEGyVYctnrY3EsD4iImk3zDBQBj0kjfCu11P4kS5Dg7FFabsttEym3W3K0WQoygtMpJkYzMZNl3GSX9mUUvi5Lj/Ss2TE9vVGe+x9ZFQ1q1yvZe/+4vmrVVCODd1rHY9cXOZWA1YzPa1YI= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:23:27 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT : Neologists Anonymous, 12 steps to fatuity In-Reply-To: <011301c5622d$15b549e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <011301c5622d$15b549e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4QLNgp0001242 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ::golf clap:: On 5/26/05, Jones Beene wrote: > Once again, The Washington Post has published the winning > submissions in its yearly contest, which I forgot to enter, once > again. > > In revenge for not having been notified well in advance (would > Tour-D-F forget to remind Lance?)... this is my far-mot-juste > revision of same. > > 1. Coffee (n.), cough-recipient > > 2. Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over recent change-in-girth > > 3. Willy-nilly (adj.), in need of Viagra > > 4. Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp like Kaiser Soze > > 5. Flatulence (n.) emergency vehicle which runs-you-over > > 6. Balderdash (n.), a hairline receding faster than Donald Trump's > charisma. > > 7. Testicle (n.), a humorous question on an proctology exam. > > 8. Rectitude (n.), the suggested treatment following failure of > the above exam. > > 9. Pokemon (n), the Rastafarian proctologist of 7 & 8 > > 10. Circumvent (n.), an opening in the front of boxer shorts worn > by certain men. > > 11. Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, until you > realizing it was your money to begin with. > > 12. Bozone (n.): The aura surrounding Fall-well and other bigots, > which keeps all light from penetrating. > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 14:47:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QLkhp0014008; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:46:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QLkcdZ013968; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:46:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:46:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <44abkh$sf0gck mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,141,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="955269524:sNHT15569372" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Lament for space Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:46:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3F-xrC.A.7ZD.8OklCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Storms said: > Thomas Malloy said: >> Belief is not black and white. > I disagree, either the Bible is what it claims to be, > or it isn't. ... Hello again, Thomas, Mr. Lawrence has already posed a few interesting questions on the dubious practice of perceiving the world in stark "black" and "white" terms. Here is something else to ponder in the meantime: Have you ever wondered why you're hanging out in the Vortex discussion group? Specifically, why are you drawn to express your opinions on the nature of a Deity and religion within a discussion group whose primary purpose is to discuss the scientific, social and political ramifications of alternative energy systems? Obviously, you are not the only individual who has contributed to a rich list of "OT" Off-Topic subjects including God and religion within Vortex. But why do you personally appear be so compelled to set the record straight within vortex in regards to your specific religious views? I'm pretty sure you are aware of the fact that your religious beliefs have not altered the religious views and opinions other Vortexian members hold most sacred within their own hearts. Since you continue to feel compelled to express your specific belief systems regarding religion it is only fair that you have occasionally been exposed to alternative views, and that certainly has happened. As to my own thoughts on the matter, I can only offer a mythic interpretation that seems to help some individuals (like me) gain a certain kind of perspective that might help explain the tenacity behind your stubbornness. Such a mythic interpretation suggests that your stubbornness is to a large extent the normal reactions of a very young soul when they find themselves exposed to belief systems they personally find disturbing. It is neither a good or bad trait. It simply IS. Very young souls grow into it. Eventually, they grow out of it - and are not so very young anymore. Very young souls, just like any group of souls of similar age Souls, tend to gravitate towards those of their own Age of experience in order to feel a sense of belonging, comfort, and like-mindedness purpose. Occasionally very young souls, almost clandestinely one might say, gravitate towards organizations that are run by Souls who are older than their own age - sometimes considerably older. Their Inner Essence (what one might call their Soul) gently guides their personality towards older groups with a specific purpose in mind. They are given both the choice and opportunity to participate in the affairs of older souls inclu! ding insight on how older souls perceive the world. Being occasionally exposed to older souls helps speed up the younger soul's personal growth in ways impossible if they continued to hang out all the time with classmates of similar age. While it may feel safe and comforting to hang out with one's soul classmates of similar age there is little to be learned when participating within a mutual admiration society - where one is constantly preaching to the converted. Very young souls (specifically their personalities) often feel compelled to set the record straight, and in a way that is exactly what is happening when their belief systems clash with the views of older souls. Whatever it takes to get very young personalities to participate - to expose themselves to different beliefs may be one of the goals a Soul has carefully engineered for their personal growth. While everyone is certainly free to disagree with this mythic interpretation, one that is likely to strike some within this group as smacking heavily of wimpy New-Age drivel, such personally felt distain may not matter all that much as far as the Soul is concerned. What matters is that a Soul often finds creative ways to compel the current personality to participate and to occasionally play by the rules laid out in the arena populated by souls older than them. To participate forces young souls to constantly defend their belief systems, and this eventually leads them to see some o! f those cherished beliefs for what they really are. Even though young souls often feel confident that they're holding steadfast to their own true school of thought, their soul continues to gently prod them towards the eventual exploration and discovery of more appropriate belief systems that better serve the personality's best interests and growth - and by such good fortune eventually away from unquestioningly serving the stagnate self-preservation of a specific belief system. Again, I'm sure much of this soliloquy sounds like wimpy New Age Drivel to many. Doesn't really matter. All in good time. Now, let's get back to those solar towers. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 15:41:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4QMetp0008201; Thu, 26 May 2005 15:40:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4QMeqaD008172; Thu, 26 May 2005 15:40:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:40:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mR3p8JdwdGIz3Dj13gWXgtPXAOnnRu9N4naU9H7kruC5e7EaqrCnWHCvaUjooM9dPTRpxB7M7OWwhd2jl+eNv7937GXULAfwNSWRKdjGaLGBvT24dQRBEhNoXHieOVUcsd4j34tDYwF50/MhuEpV2PNzxeNnez5OG5KRv/CUotg= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:40:43 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The wonders of technology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4QMelp0007941 Resent-Message-ID: <7waY_.A.o_B.0BllCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Plant+42+in+Palmdale,+California&ll=34.637382,-118.082020&spn=0.005397,0.007832&t=k&hl=en thought youd all get a kick from this. a production plant that was SUPPOSED to be digitally scrambled on google maps sattelite photos, looks like they got the wrong square mile. hey, is that a stealth bomber i see there? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 18:16:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4R1Gbp0003081; Thu, 26 May 2005 18:16:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4R1GZht003056; Thu, 26 May 2005 18:16:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:16:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42967536.7080400 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:17:42 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The wonders of technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7yL7EC.A.iv.yTnlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >thought youd all get a kick from this. a production plant that was >SUPPOSED to be digitally scrambled on google maps sattelite photos, >looks like they got the wrong square mile. hey, is that a stealth >bomber i see there? > Probably in for block 30 upgrades: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-2.htm But this is why Palmdale parking lots are full: http://www.nidsci.org/articles/8_25trireport.php ~" i love deadlines. i love the 'whooshing' sound they make as they go flying by." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu May 26 21:45:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4R4jGp0028191; Thu, 26 May 2005 21:45:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4R4jE31028177; Thu, 26 May 2005 21:45:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:45:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: More MAHG Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:45:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good news on the OU front... The Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG), mentioned several times in the past, is based on the Irving Langmuir Torch, which may have been the very first documented OU device, despite Langmuir's later 'pathological,' and most regrettable doubletalk. In the MAHG, hydrogen is dissociated at low voltage electrically and recombined at overunity thermally. An important but controversial finding - here by Naudin and by several others, is a robust COP... now over 2.5 at decent 500 watt power gain - consequently, this is looking good for immediate commercial development - plus the H2 is not consumed but can be recycled over and over again without consuming much more hydrogen than the quantity used to start with. The mechanism is probably related to the hydrino, but not only precedes BLP but perhaps supercedes the hydrino work, as well. The Mills' experimental phenomena may be a subset of this or vice versa, who knows. The Moller cathode is typically tungsten, not a typical Mills' catalyst, although as stated before, Mills is now trying to claim about half the periodic table. Here is the new tests on the JLN site: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm As a proto-theory of this which has been put forward several times on vortex in generalities, most recently last week - is that there seems to be a simple "bare proton" pathway for OU - it is an idea which is seen in the Chernitski tube and many other devices. I re-float the idea on vortex from time-to-time as a hypothetical way that one can cohere the mass-energy of ZPE in the form of a 3.4 eV base "entity" of mass/charge (photon or light lepton) which can be cohered from Dirac's sea. The 3.4 eV entity is best known as both the half-ionization potential energy of positronium (the major component of the Dirac sea interface) and/or the best estimate for mass of the electron anti-neutrino. It is probably related to both phenomena. Whatever "it" is, "it" is attracted to a "bare" proton. Where is Clinton when you need an expert in doublespeak? At a COP of 2.5+ (see run 29) the Moller unit tested by Naudin is not all that far from becoming self-powered, as the heat-to-electric efficiency of small turbines is about 25%. If this excess heat can be pushed to a COP of about 4 or thereabouts, or some more efficient direct conversion method implemented - then a self-powered device will be possible. That experiment - if and when it occurs - will be as important, if not more so, than the discovery of nuclear energy... no kidding. Off the record, this may happen soon...so the eternal optimist is now looking for a discount flight to Switzerland.... ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 00:10:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4R7ABoN027700; Fri, 27 May 2005 00:10:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4R7A6QD027649; Fri, 27 May 2005 00:10:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:10:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050527070956.00976294 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:09:56 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Lament for space Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:46 pm 26/05/2005 -0400, you wrote: >>> Storms said: >> Thomas Malloy said: >>> Belief is not black and white. > >> I disagree, either the Bible is what it claims to be, >> or it isn't. What the One, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic, Church claims it to be - if we want to be precise. >Hello again, Thomas, >Again, I'm sure much of this soliloquy sounds like wimpy New Age Drivel to many. It certainly does to this old soul. Never mind. I'm sure you mean well. 8^) Cheers. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 03:31:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RAUVoN030549; Fri, 27 May 2005 03:30:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RAUGqh030447; Fri, 27 May 2005 03:30:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:30:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Eqid4XC+6NNht6z+VJXDTQAScPoySJp1C8utROeherEhSzPELhIkAiaf9QdEBnAG; Message-ID: <410-22005552792820580 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: More MAHG Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 04:28:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ed73908f8dd81d2bbd7b6c69b1e1bac4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.111 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > In the MAHG, hydrogen is dissociated at low voltage electrically > and recombined at overunity thermally. An important but > controversial finding - here by Naudin and by several others, is a > robust COP... now over 2.5 at decent 500 watt power gain - > > The mechanism is probably related to the hydrino, but not only > precedes BLP but perhaps supercedes the hydrino work, as well. The > Mills' experimental phenomena may be a subset of this or vice > versa, who knows. > Snip the swim in the Dirac Sea.... :-) > Sounds a lot like typical OU from the stimulated release of Solar Photon (or ambient heat) Induced "metastable" states of Hydrogen Bonding in water, Jones. The Einstein and Debye Temperature physics related to Specific Heat in compounds (BMGs) give an indication of these effects : http://mmp.iphy.ac.cn/EX4/DownloadPaper/2003/JMR-Tg-Debye.pdf (as an example) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones Beene wrote:
>
> In the MAHG, hydrogen is dissociated at low voltage electrically
> and recombined at overunity thermally. An important but
> controversial finding - here by Naudin and by several others, is a
> robust COP... now over 2.5 at decent  500 watt power gain -
>
> The mechanism is probably related to the hydrino, but not only
> precedes BLP but perhaps supercedes the hydrino work, as well. The
> Mills' experimental phenomena may be a subset of this or vice
> versa, who knows.
>
Snip the swim in the Dirac Sea....   :-)
>
Sounds a lot like typical OU from the stimulated release of Solar Photon (or ambient heat) Induced "metastable" states of
Hydrogen Bonding in water, Jones.
 
The Einstein and Debye Temperature physics related to Specific Heat in compounds (BMGs) give an indication
of these effects :
 
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 05:36:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RCaDoN013399; Fri, 27 May 2005 05:36:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RCa3J1013309; Fri, 27 May 2005 05:36:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 05:36:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00cd01c562b8$70f84330$bc57ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:34:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <5wqt3D.A.tPD.wQxlCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" Subject: More MAHG > Good news on the OU front... > > The Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG), mentioned several > times in the past, is based on the Irving Langmuir Torch, which > may have been the very first documented OU device, despite > Langmuir's later 'pathological,' and most regrettable doubletalk. > > In the MAHG, hydrogen is dissociated at low voltage electrically > and recombined at overunity thermally. An important but > controversial finding - here by Naudin and by several others, is a > robust COP... now over 2.5 at decent 500 watt power gain - > consequently, this is looking good for immediate commercial > development - plus the H2 is not consumed but can be recycled over > and over again without consuming much more hydrogen than the > quantity used to start with. > > The mechanism is probably related to the hydrino, but not only > precedes BLP but perhaps supercedes the hydrino work, as well. The > Mills' experimental phenomena may be a subset of this or vice > versa, who knows. The Moller cathode is typically tungsten, not a > typical Mills' catalyst, although as stated before, Mills is now > trying to claim about half the periodic table. Here is the new > tests on the JLN site: > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm ---------------------------------------------------------- Very, very interesting. Naudin is doing his usual good work. Hydrinophiles need to note the H+2H catalysis reaction which Phillips discusses in his recent paper. Two hydrogen atoms can catalyze a third to produce H(1/2), and initiate further cascades of BLP reactions, as Phillips notes. The thermal dissociation of H2 by hot tungsten is also used int he BLP thermal reactor featured on the "Cell" page of the website. The pressure in Naudin's cell is relatively high [0.1 atmosphere], no flow, so there's lots of hydrogen around to react. Hydrinophobes note: this may be a truly "independant" confirmation of BLP reactions. What would be the clincher is a window into the reaction chamber and spectroscopic analysis of the plasma there. Ironic that it may come from derivatily from Langmuir of 'pathological science' fame. Mike Carrell Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 07:16:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4REGIoN027301; Fri, 27 May 2005 07:16:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4REFnmN027091; Fri, 27 May 2005 07:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:15:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404j6$vaaajn mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,143,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1051011703:sNHT14777820" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: Lament for space Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:15:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer ... > >Again, I'm sure much of this soliloquy sounds > >like wimpy New Age Drivel to many. > > > It certainly does to this old soul. > Never mind. I'm sure you mean well. 8^) > > Cheers. > > Frank Grimer Can I come out now? :-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 07:33:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4REUWof002014; Fri, 27 May 2005 07:33:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4REDB81025899; Fri, 27 May 2005 07:13:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:13:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404pq$11j2s90 mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,143,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1127313696:sNHT15399160" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:12:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, ... > Hydrinophobes note: this may be a truly "independant" > confirmation of BLP reactions. What would be the clincher > is a window into the reaction chamber and spectroscopic > analysis of the plasma there. Ironic that it may come from > derivatily from Langmuir of 'pathological science' fame. > > Mike Carrell Maybe someone should post the relevance of this work over at the Yahoo Hydrino Discussion group, particularly since it may be considered "independt" verification. Someone like you? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 07:58:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4REvMoN017468; Fri, 27 May 2005 07:57:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4REvIh9017409; Fri, 27 May 2005 07:57:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:57:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005f01c562cc$5d460ed0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00cd01c562b8$70f84330$bc57ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:57:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, > Hydrinophobes note: this may be a truly "independant" > confirmation of BLP > reactions. What would be the clincher is a window into the > reaction chamber > and spectroscopic analysis of the plasma there. Ironic that it > may come from > derivatily from Langmuir of 'pathological science' fame. You might want to write up the details of this experimental work and put your hydrino slant on it , for the benefit of the HSG forum. I have given up posting there as it has disintegrated into something-else, these days. Anyway, I have talked to Moller personally when he was trying to get his new machine and tubes out of Russia, where they were made - and he was running into trouble with Frolov. He is a tireless, extremely dedicated, thorough and doggedly determined fellow, and I think that he will succeed. He is a man-on-a-mission, and that type of personality generally gets there first when the more brilliant fast-starters stumble. I mentioned several possible ways to Moller that he can increase the heating of the 'Langmuir effect,' if it indeed has some relevance to a hydrino effect, as well. That is, if it is related somehow to the hydrino via a Mills catalysts (for instance, among other enhancers is adding argon, helium and/or slats of K or Sr). If he has taken that advice, he apparently either hasn't shared it with Naudin, or at least they have chosen not to publish that part of it yet. There is more than one operating MAHG unit, one must suspect, and I doubt Naudin is privy to the best-one. Should Moller go self-powered, and I think it will happen soon, it will likely end all chance for Mills getting the Nobel prize, as the base-effect was discovered elsewhere a half-century ago, and Mills OS theory has holes, whereas Dirac's does not, and so what has Mills contributed really? a name for a hypothetical particle that he cannot even weigh? The notoriety of the big-prize seems to have been RM's main concern and goal, rather than a commercial unit. The end-result of Moller getting there first would be triple-irony in my opinion (almost a biblical message about pride?). Here is the forecast and dramatized chronology of the quest for OU in the most abundant element, which would make a good TV docu-drama - how about "The Quest for Hy-O-U" Flashback: Langmuir invents the torch, finds the energy anomaly, but gets the Nobel for something else. Langmuir balks at his own finding, as it goes against physics doctrine, and even goes on to popularize the whole "pathological science" shtick - all along thinking that his torch could not possibly violate the sacrosanct 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, on which physics is built. Even though Dirac could have told him otherwise. However, Langmuir writes private letters to Bohr about the "anomaly." Years later, Mills finds something similar, in an energy anomaly involving hydrogen, but ignores Langmuir and Dirac and tries to foster his own pet theory onto the effect, which the critics tear to threads (in their own mind). In the mean time, Mills has neglected to produce the all-important self-powered unit, which will be absolutely necessary to get mainstream physics to believe in it. A determined fellow and admirer of the "Great Dane" (Bohr) comes along, named Nicholas Moller, finds the old letters from Langmuir to Bohr in Copenhagen, raises capital, draws up blueprints for something similar, has the device built in Russia, where the Russians try to steal the idea and patent it there. Moller has to hire a competing Russian mafia to get the machine out of Russia, but turns it into a self-powered unit, using the wealth of ideas available over the internet to improve the device, and by tracking-down the people who follow these things closely and will talk with him and people like Naudin who will do the testing. Moller, the pragmatist and tireless hunter, and not Mills the more brilliant but egotistical genius, "gets there first" and gets the ticket to Stockholm... and probably more wealth potential than Gates. That is, unless Mills (and/or many others who are in the running) somehow get a big breakthrough and get any self-powered unit in operation "real soon." Many are tantalizingly close. Many have been in hot pursuit longer than Moller. But lady-luck plays a few cards in this deal also. Actually I am hoping for a local player to step in at the last second with the self-powered unit, but it could also be Moller or Mills or Storms or Shoulders or Tessien instead. The 2nd Law will crumble soon. IMHO the big prize for breaking the law (2nd Law) and throwing physics into the disarray it rightly deserves for ingrained pig-headedness - will go for the device itself, and not the underlying theory, which may take a generation to flesh out. Let me repeat one thing - massive heat OU is NOT going to be enough - you must demonstrate a self-powered unit to remove all doubt. That device may not involved hydrogen, instead it may be even simpler than most experimenters in LENR can imagine. Time will tell. Everyone but a handful of Dirac believers sees that P.A.M. held the kernel of truth but no one wanted to believe that a long-neglected theorist living in Colorado (Hotson), and most disturbingly (for the mainstream) publishing that 'revised Dirac theory' in an iconoclastic "Infinite Energy," a totally ignored magazine by the mainstream - got the underlying theory right. So Hotson/Dirac will be intentionally disregarded for decades, and they will have to give the award for the device itself, not the correct theory. That is my (the eternal optimist's) take on how the story will unfold in the coming years (maybe months). I'm sure Randy et al. sees it differently. Al is always in there somewhere (methinks al is for 'alien'). BTW all vortex prophets and pundits are free to add your on spin on this upcoming docu-drama.. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 08:11:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RFBBoN024970; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:11:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RFB8nV024940; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:11:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:11:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:11:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050527151100.EISR2762.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > The 2nd Law will > crumble soon. I'm not sure that hydrinos violate this. Afterall, it took energy to put that electron in it's "ground state" orbit. "Let there be light." -The Bomb, "Dark Star" http://imdb.com/title/tt0069945/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 08:28:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RFSXoN005703; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:28:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RFSVoQ005691; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:28:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:28:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=cg25KMZx7UmUSkAV4mlGbG1DPT0pjg0nrbhraSmuN7gHNTtk0kFORt1EZEsgh+d14wfrMsVOERCWR/haLXBqDsiXbP9FUiMvsB/d/Dx4YAPAifjdAbD3UqrczCqd15DVQmyLe4XHKsuvHdXpb1IXDPhsm/P8vejOst6gKYdT1pk= ; Message-ID: <20050527152824.14578.qmail web51507.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:28:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP (and Pulsed Plasma) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4404pq$11j2s90 mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1893093847-1117207704=:14570" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1893093847-1117207704=:14570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Steven, Plasma Magic finally seems to be ever so slowly, transforming into scientific fact. Time to speed it up and stop saying how Plasma is nothing interesting. Everything there is to know about Plasma is NOT already known. Chris Arnold orionworks charter.net wrote: Hi Mike, ... > Hydrinophobes note: this may be a truly "independant" > confirmation of BLP reactions. What would be the clincher > is a window into the reaction chamber and spectroscopic > analysis of the plasma there. Ironic that it may come from > derivatily from Langmuir of 'pathological science' fame. > > Mike Carrell Maybe someone should post the relevance of this work over at the Yahoo Hydrino Discussion group, particularly since it may be considered "independt" verification. Someone like you? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1893093847-1117207704=:14570 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello Steven,
 
Plasma Magic finally seems to be ever so slowly, transforming into scientific fact.
 
Time to speed it up and stop saying how Plasma is nothing interesting. Everything there is to know about Plasma is NOT already known.
 
Chris Arnold

orionworks charter.net wrote:
Hi Mike,

...

> Hydrinophobes note: this may be a truly "independant"
> confirmation of BLP reactions. What would be the clincher
> is a window into the reaction chamber and spectroscopic
> analysis of the plasma there. Ironic that it may come from
> derivatily from Langmuir of 'pathological science' fame.
>
> Mike Carrell

Maybe someone should post the relevance of this work over at the Yahoo Hydrino Discussion group, particularly since it may be considered "independt" verification.

Someone like you?

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1893093847-1117207704=:14570-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 09:06:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RG6AoN027830; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:06:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RG68wu027810; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:06:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:06:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007001c562d5$f9fa1740$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050527151100.EISR2762.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:06:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" >> The 2nd Law will >> crumble soon. > I'm not sure that hydrinos violate this. After all, it took > energy to put that electron in it's "ground state" orbit. Yes this statement does include a healthy dose of "poetic license" ... as all that will "really" happen, when the dust settles (majority rules), is that the 'Law' will be 'reinterpreted' to include a 'larger' system than before. This already happened once when nuclear energy came along. The problem with ZPE is that the 'outside' sytsem is "interdimensional," so in effect this does turns the 2nd Law into little more than semantic mush, even more so than presently. I know that there are those who say LENR is really nuclear, so there is 'no' violation anyway. I say that even if LENR involves a nuclear reaction, even a non-standard nuclear reaction, that it can also have a ZPE input (the part which is the 'outside' system) and consequently even low-energy-nuclear goes flat-up against the original intent of the 2nd Law. Jones Whilst on the subject of semantics in law&order... (may Lenny/Jerry rest-in-peace)... GBS sez - When a man wants to murder a tiger he calls it sport: when the tiger wants to murder him he calls it ferocity. The distinction between Crime and Justice is no greater. ....not to mention the ever-popular insight which applies to physics equally with L&O: Obedience simulates subordination [and murders creativity] as fear of the police simulates honesty. -George Bernard Shaw From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 09:25:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RGPToN007896; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:25:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RGPPPr007849; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:25:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:25:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429749ED.3040809 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:25:17 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00cd01c562b8$70f84330$bc57ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <005f01c562cc$5d460ed0$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <005f01c562cc$5d460ed0$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Mike, > >> Hydrinophobes note: this may be a truly "independant" confirmation of >> BLP >> reactions. What would be the clincher is a window into the reaction >> chamber >> and spectroscopic analysis of the plasma there. Ironic that it may >> come from >> derivatily from Langmuir of 'pathological science' fame. > > [ ... ] > > Should Moller go self-powered, and I think it will happen soon, it > will likely end all chance for Mills getting the Nobel prize I'm lost. Assuming hydrinos exist, they open the door to some additional chemistry related to hydrogen. Fixing QM afterwards will be a major chore, whether or not RM's version of the theory is correct, but stranger things have happened. I don't see how this relates to anything that's OU. H -> h -> H is a zero-sum game, just like everything else in physics, right? You can't just keep re-using the same hydrogen, getting energy out on every cycle, and never putting anything back in. I don't see how any machine based on BLP techniques could be "self powered" in the sense of producing energy without consuming fuel. So I guess I don't see where Mills's ideas fit into anything that violates either the first or second law. What did I miss? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 09:31:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RGVHoN010972; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:31:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RGVG0T010960; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:31:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:31:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:31:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP In-reply-to: <005f01c562cc$5d460ed0$6801a8c0 NuDell> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Actually I am hoping for a local player to step in at the last > second with the self-powered unit, but it could also be Moller or > Mills or Storms or Shoulders or Tessien instead. The 2nd Law will > crumble soon. IMHO the big prize for breaking the law (2nd Law) > and throwing physics into the disarray it rightly deserves for > ingrained pig-headedness - will go for the device itself, and not > the underlying theory, which may take a generation to flesh out. > Let me repeat one thing - massive heat OU is NOT going to be > enough - you must demonstrate a self-powered unit to remove all > doubt. If such a device existed, how could one decide if its performance was a result of violating the first law rather than the second law? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 09:43:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RGhIoN017033; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:43:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RGhF7r017002; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:43:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:43:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42974E1C.2050903 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:43:08 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More MAHG References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Good news on the OU front... > > At a COP of 2.5+ (see run 29) the Moller unit tested by Naudin is not > all that far from becoming self-powered, as the heat-to-electric > efficiency of small turbines is about 25%. If this excess heat can be > pushed to a COP of about 4 or thereabouts, or some more efficient > direct conversion method implemented - then a self-powered device will > be possible. > > That experiment - if and when it occurs - will be as important, if not > more so, than the discovery of nuclear energy... no kidding. No kidding, indeed! I looked at the spreadsheet. I had a little trouble understanding it, though. Is it the case that his output temperature is 1.37 degrees C higher than the input temp? That's what it _looks_ like, but perhaps I misunderstood something here. If this is to be made to power a turbine it would seem that there must be some way to "amplify" that difference, yes? For won't any heat engine, be it turbine or Sterling engine, which is trying to convert such a small difference into electrical (or mechanical) energy be far less than 25% efficient? He appears to run the tests at about 300 degrees K, so surely the efficiency would be roughly (301.27 - 300)/300 ~ 0.42% ? To close the loop, that would require a COP of ... oh, I don't know, 200 maybe? What did I miss? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 09:44:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RGi5oN017570; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:44:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RGi3md017514; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:44:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:44:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007d01c562db$44939650$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00cd01c562b8$70f84330$bc57ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <005f01c562cc$5d460ed0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <429749ED.3040809@pobox.com> Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:43:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > I'm lost.... I don't see how this relates to anything that's OU. > H -> h -> H is a zero-sum game, just like everything else in > physics, right? You are using the "little h" as the hydrino? We usually indicate that as Hy but anyway according to Mills (who is certainly wrong on the details of this) the hydrino reaction is not easily reversible. However, MAHG is NOT conforming to the Mills' interpretation, but instead to a modification of the Dirac theory (by way of Hotson) and according to a reinterpretation of Dirac (the non-Mills interpretation)- if the "bare proton" modality is "pumping" disrupting the epo balance at the Dirac interface, the effect is that the ionization energy of the virtual Ps becomes "caught" on the dimensional-interface with the result being that a real 3.4 eV photon (half of the 6.8 IP) is left in our dimension. This is the signature of ZPE in this interpretation = the 3.4 eV photon. Why is it not 6.8 instead? Stay tuned. > SL: You can't just keep re-using the same hydrogen, getting > energy out on every cycle, Yup, you can and that is exactly what is happening here and in the Naudin experiments, IMHO. > SL: I don't see how any machine based on BLP techniques could be > "self powered" in the sense of producing energy without > consuming fuel. > What did I miss? You missed the part about 1) Mills is wrong, Dirac (reinterpreted) is correct 2) Moller/Langmuir is similar to BLP but not the same 3) ZPE energy powers the device 4) The signature of ZPE in this device is UV light at the characteristic 3.4 eV mass/energy Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 09:52:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RGqEoN022223; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:52:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RGqCT8022192; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:52:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:52:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42975036.7050004 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:52:06 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Jones Beene wrote: > > > >>Actually I am hoping for a local player to step in at the last >>second with the self-powered unit, but it could also be Moller or >>Mills or Storms or Shoulders or Tessien instead. The 2nd Law will >>crumble soon. IMHO the big prize for breaking the law (2nd Law) >>and throwing physics into the disarray it rightly deserves for >>ingrained pig-headedness - will go for the device itself, and not >>the underlying theory, which may take a generation to flesh out. >>Let me repeat one thing - massive heat OU is NOT going to be >>enough - you must demonstrate a self-powered unit to remove all >>doubt. >> >> > > >If such a device existed, how could one decide if its performance was a >result of violating the first law rather than the second law? > > Put the whole thing in a big box, and measure the temperature of everything and the total internal energy of everything in the box, to determine exactly how much energy is present. Let it run for a while. Repeat the measurements. (Granted, this is a gedanken experiment -- really _doing_ this would be very hard.) The first law says that if the box is sealed, you always get the same number (I think!). The second law says you can't cool off the box by converting the heat energy into mechanical energy, so its violations are harder to detect -- you need to look at how the energy is distributed inside the box because other effects (non-violations) can change the temperature of the system as a whole. If I understand the concept of ZPE correctly, it's a violation of the first law, not the second law, because it adds energy to the system without an apparent source. It doesn't just involve converting heat energy into something more useful. And as Jones points out thermo still stands if ZPE violates the first law; we just need to enlarge the system adequately to include a place which lost energy while we were gaining it. Violating the second law would actually be more serious, I think; it's not clear how you'd fix thermodynamics to deal with a second law violation. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 09:54:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RGsZoN023622; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:54:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RGsXuu023608; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:54:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:54:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429750C4.2010109 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:54:28 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00cd01c562b8$70f84330$bc57ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <005f01c562cc$5d460ed0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <429749ED.3040809@pobox.com> <007d01c562db$44939650$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007d01c562db$44939650$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0g8y8.A.zwF.JD1lCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >> SL: I don't see how any machine based on BLP techniques could be >> "self powered" in the sense of producing energy without consuming fuel. > >> What did I miss? > > > You missed the part about > 1) Mills is wrong, Dirac (reinterpreted) is correct > 2) Moller/Langmuir is similar to BLP but not the same > 3) ZPE energy powers the device > 4) The signature of ZPE in this device is UV light at the > characteristic 3.4 eV mass/energy Ah .. I think I may have gotten it this time around. Thanx. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 10:12:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RHBjoN002432; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:11:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RHBfI9002397; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:11:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009601c562df$2398c250$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> <42974E1C.2050903@pobox.com> Subject: Re: More MAHG Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:11:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <9pa2LB.A.Rl.LT1lCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > What did I miss? Also... That the radiator is there for the purpose of keeping the tube temperature within an acceptable operating range. In a self-powered unit, the direct conversion of internal heat energy will be taken off inside the tube itself, using the 3.4 eV photon, which can happen either by UV photocell or by a multipactor grid, or by several other possible but more complicated ways - but the operating range of the tube itself still needs to be kept steady and within a certain regime. Getting the thing to self-power, which is NOT the intent with this particular experiment is all about 'where and how' the 500 watts of excess heat in going to be converted into electricity, in order to be recirculated and self-power. IOW if you have ~500 watts of excess heat from ~200 watts of electrical input and the tube needs to be maintained at 300 K then you must convert and remove the internal heat at greater than 40% and then still take off whatever is needed to keep the tube cool.. UV photocells are not to that efficiency level AFAIK, however the Miley direct-converter, mentioned a few days ago, can do this at upwards to 70% efficiency, but it is much more complicated. I do not have a clue as to how Moller is going to pull off the 40% conversion, but I suggested many months ago a version of the traveling-wave gyrotron, which is essentially what Miley has concocted. Moller may have other tricks up his sleeve, or he may be waiting on funds to continue the process. I do not know the current status of this - so let us be clear that much of my optimism is based on educated-speculation based solely upon what can be done (in a perfect world) and should money not be a huge impediment to progress, which it usually is.... Often, however, financing is not the problem for those with offices in Berkeley Square, London and Labs in Switzerland. I wish Moller well. Time will tell - I am only presenting the best scenario which comes to mind, but any realist should temper this level of optimism with "l'loi de emmerdment maximum." Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 10:58:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RHwKoN001336; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:58:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RHwIbW001316; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:58:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:58:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:58:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050527175810.HEND2762.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > The problem with ZPE is that the > 'outside' sytsem is "interdimensional," so in effect this does > turns the 2nd Law into little more than semantic mush, even more > so than presently. Of course, Randell vehemently denies ZPE. > Obedience simulates subordination [and murders creativity] as fear > of the police simulates honesty. Which reminds me, you used a phrase sometime back, I don't remember when, but it went something like "x trumps y". It reminded me of something which I couldn't remember . Now I do: a phrase in Kellerman's "Conspiracy Club" . . . "Expediency trumps virtue." Did you get it from Kellerman? It was an odd synchronicity as I was reading CC at the time. "Reality is whatever refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." -Horselover Fat From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 11:58:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RIvxoN002171; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:57:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RIvvBI002157; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:57:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:57:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050527185748.00983954 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:57:48 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:58 pm 27/05/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> From: "Jones Beene" > > Which reminds me, you used a phrase sometime back, I don't > remember when, but it went something like "x trumps y". It was Jed who used the phrase in his post of Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:28 on the topic of Occam and Cold Fusion =================================================== I wouldn't know if there is a simpler explanation, but if there is, Occam's razor tells you to pick that one. Any solution that "fits all the facts better" is preferable, even if it happens to be more complex. A "better fit" trumps Occam. Many wonderfully simple theories have been replaced by complicated ones that fit the facts better, especially in biology. - Jed =================================================== Not a feat of memory on my part. It's just that there couldn't be many instances of "trumps" in the Vortex archives (13) so I thought I'd do the legwork and track it down for you. 8-) Jones included that excerpt in a subsequent post which is what you probably remember. Frank Actually, on reading what Jed wrote I find I profoundly disagree with it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 13:16:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RKFuoN006542; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:16:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RKFsVn006525; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:15:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:15:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:15:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050527201547.JJWU2762.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > Not a feat of memory on my part. It's just that there couldn't > be many instances of "trumps" in the Vortex archives (13) so I > thought I'd do the legwork and track it down for you. 8-) Actually 14 instances now that you have been so kind to respond. :-) I am surprised at how quickly escribe can perform the search. The use of the word often implies a hidden resource used to overcome an opponent. In the novel I mentioned, the phrase "expediency trumps virtue" (along with the title) could give the astute reader insight into the plot of the book. BTW, it was actually Mr. Lawrence's post of 25 Apr which I almost remembered where he used the phrase "experiment trumps theory". Everyone here is so bloody brilliant that you all look the same to me at times. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 14:13:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RLDeoN002301; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:13:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RLDdmc002280; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:13:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:13:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c56300$f1dd7720$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050527201547.JJWU2762.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: (OT) CCC : was MAHG trumped up Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:13:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tuned-in a bit late, but always happy to pick up on a good 'mystery' recommendation: http://www.bookloons.com/cgi-bin/Review.ASP?bookid=2450 Hmmm....the "CCC" ... sounds suspiciously like a few of the co-conspirator-cranks of Vortex, no? "Pathologist Dr. Arthur Chess begins to make overtures, expressing interest in 'the genesis of very, very bad behavior', which Jeremy sums up as 'A cocktail of nature and nurture.' Dr. Chess invites Jeremy to a sumptuous dinner with an elderly group of associates, the 'CCC', whose words 'Expediency trumps virtue' stay with him long after he gives a talk on 'habitually violent criminals'. What is their interest, and who is sending Dr. Carrier research papers on disturbing topics such as laser scalpel applications? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 15:58:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4RMvkR7016594; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:57:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4RMvhpc016571; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:57:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:57:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220055527225746730 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 27, 2005 Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:57:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8790861066f4494f7318289390a3e11c38f1403e8a44865d0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.105.17 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 5/27/2005 12:52:10 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 27, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 27 May 05 Washington, DC 1. SPACE: VOYAGER 1 REACHES THE LIMIT OF BUSH'S ATTENTION SPAN. It's been traveling for 28 years and is now 8.7 billion miles from Earth. It just reported that it has entered the region of the heliosheath, where the solar wind begins to dissipate. It may be in this region another 10 years. Its Pt-238 radioisotope thermoelectric generator (RTG) should keep operating until about 2020. When Voyager 1 crosses that final boundary, becoming the first human artifact to enter interstellar space, Earth won't know. Communications with Voyager will be cut off to save $4.5M of NASA's $16.5B budget (.025%), for Bush's Moon/Mars "vision." 2. ETHANOL: RUM JOINS BOURBON AT THE ENERGY-INDEPENDENCE PARTY. In the name of energy independence, the government has required that five billion gallons of ethanol be blended into gasoline each year. Every gallon gets a 51 cent subsidy. And yet, we still seem to need a lot of Arab oil. So the Senate adopted an amendment to the energy bill raising the mandate to eight billion gallons of ethanol. To get support for the amendment, they gave the sugar industry $8M for a pilot program in Hawaii to make ethanol from sugar cane. Will that reduce the need for Arab oil? No, but we won't mind as much. Brazil, which has no oil, began using ethanol from sugar cane. Friends at the University of Campinas told me the energy balance is positive only if the cane is grown and harvested manually, condemning a portion of the population to serfdom. It also pollutes rivers with alkanes. 3. HYDROGEN: PRESIDENT BUSH PUMPS HYDROGEN AT FILLING STATION. Speaking of energy balance, here's one that is guaranteed by the Second Law of Thermodynamics to be negative. With a security cordon disrupting traffic for blocks around, the President held the nozzle at the sole hydrogen pump in Washington, DC at a Shell station www.bobpark.org/WN04/wn111204.html. It proves: you can make hydrogen, you can put it in cars, and you can drive the cars. Is it practical? No! Will it diminish oil dependence? No! Will it cut pollution? No! Will it happen? Not this way! 4. STEM CELLS BILL: PRESIDENT'S FIRST VETO WOULD BE A BAD ONE. In spite of a threat to cast his first-ever veto, 50 Republicans broke ranks as the House voted 238 to 194 on Tuesday to repeal the President's restrictions on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. As is now so often the case, debate was filled with biblical references. But Jo Ann Emerson (R-MO) asked: "Who can say prolonging life is not pro-life?" 5. SEARCHING WHAT'S NEW: OUR NEW SEARCH ENGINE IS WORKING GREAT. We apologize to those who tried to use the WN search engine in recent weeks, but now it's working better than ever. Our tight format (500 words) limits the amount of background we can provide, but by using the search engine at www.bobpark.org you can now get more than two decades of background. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: Message-ID: <001401c56314$5d880c20$e37accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00cd01c562b8$70f84330$bc57ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:32:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <_74JOC.A.krH.d46lCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've taken a closer look at Naudin's posted results and read Moller's "Irving Langmuir and Atomic Hydrogen". Some comments. Naudin is using flow calorimetry, which is simple, substantially self-calibrating and legitimate. No more is needed for the size of the effect he observes. You just measure the input and output water temperatures and the flow rate. The question is what is actually happening in the reactor. He uses DC drive on the filament as a reference, and 10 Hz pulses to drive the temperature up into the hydrogen dissociation zone. Using Lanmur's data only a very small fraction of the hydrogen is dissociated below the melting point of tungsten. No reason is given for not running the tests at DC, except possible driving a dissociation-recombination cycle. I am told that 2H>H2, recombination, is a three-body reaction, the third body carries away the heat of recombination. That third body presumeably can be the reactor walls, which may explain the action of atomic hydrogen and other plasma welders. Moller's review of Langmuir's work is tantalizing with impressive numbers, but no details of how the measurements were actually conducted. Quite unsuspected at the time was the possibility of the hydrogen BLP catalysis reaction. If Langmuir's data on the percent of dissociation as a function of tungsten temperature is correct, the Mills thermal reactor haeater is just barely effective. The dissociation percent is a very strong function of temperature and one wonders *why*. As I said before, the Phillips paper discusses many reactions that can go once H(1/2) is produced. Naudin does very neat construction, good photographs, interesting results but leaves dangling many unanswered questions. Moller assumes ZPE as the energy release mechanism, but the BLP reaction could produce the observed results and further experiments are needed. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri May 27 17:37:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4S0bNR7025466; Fri, 27 May 2005 17:37:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4S0bL31025443; Fri, 27 May 2005 17:37:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:37:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005201c5631d$6800a000$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00cd01c562b8$70f84330$bc57ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001401c56314$5d880c20$e37accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:37:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, > Moller assumes ZPE as the energy release mechanism, but the BLP > reaction > could produce the observed results and further experiments are > needed. I agree that much more experimentation is needed, and that the results are intertwined at some basic level, but in Moller/Langmuir there is no loss of H2 due to hydrinos as in Mills. This is a big issue. Mills must keep a steady supply of gas flowing, not with MAHG. It is a huge advantage over Mills to have a potentially sealed system with no need of continuous hydrogen flow. Moller/Langmuir seems to be more of a ZPE pumping action, which is also consistent with a *temporary hydrino* being in oscillation mode - BUT which Mills says specifically cannot exist - and Mills does not believe in ZPE either. So Mills cannot take credit for this, IMHO, despite the similarity and the UV photons. Its too bad that Moller can show more in 15 months, publicly at least, than Mills can in 15 years, as far as an actual complete system-wide net OU, and in which the testing is performed independently and with no strings attached (not that Naudin hasn't made many gaffs in the past). Mills has far more detailed spectroscopy etc, and claims a much higher potential gain per atom, but his plasma is too thin, with the result being that the high gain is not really relevant unless and until he can show a system-wide net OU like this, where there is an immediate an obvious path to self-power. At this point, I would say the ball is in Mills court for a very public demonstration, if he still has aspirations of being the seen as the title-holder, or even a contender in Hy-O-U. Can't you just hear the heartbreak in Marlon's voice ... "I coulda been a contender... I coulda had class" ... Mills has plenty of class and tons of smarts, make no mistake about that...but can he deliver...? Jones For the non-cinema addicted, that line was from "On the Waterfront" mid-fifties... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 28 02:11:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4S9B3sr004193; Sat, 28 May 2005 02:11:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4S9B1Hr004149; Sat, 28 May 2005 02:11:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:11:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=VhZPyXJWnlUihD8Tg8c1ePZR6AmHVAL8caDz26eeEg/YoCdai8k1vMGXXgpRy68h; Message-ID: <410-22005562881021700 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 03:10:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405e3a54e02f2bed42d5b7f06b072454d8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.225 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mike Carrell wrote: > > Quite unsuspected at the time was the possibility of the hydrogen BLP > catalysis reaction. If Langmuir's data on the percent of dissociation as a > function of tungsten temperature is correct, the Mills thermal reactor > heater is just barely effective. The dissociation percent is a very strong > function of temperature and one wonders *why*. As I said before, the > Phillips paper discusses many reactions that can go once H(1/2) is produced. > For an Off-The-Shelf 200 watt tungsten capillary Hydrogen Atomic Beam Source (HABS) http://www.mbe-components.com/products/gas/habs.html "The intensity of the source can be controlled by the flow rate of hydrogen and the heating power. The heating power determines the temperature of the capillary. With respect to control of these operational parameters we suggest different procedures for high and low intensity runs." HABS Data Sheet: http://www.mbe-components.com/products/pdf/werbeblatt_habs_web.pdf As an aside, it is interesting to compare the JLN work with that of Scott Little's (Earthtech) Mill's ( BLP) replication effort in late 1897-early 1998: http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/index.html http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/mills/mills1.html In later runs Scott used only H2 (at higher pressure) and still saw extensive filament erosion. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> Quite unsuspected at the time was the possibility of the hydrogen BLP
> catalysis reaction. If Langmuir's data on the percent of dissociation as a
> function of tungsten temperature is correct, the Mills thermal reactor
> heater is just barely effective. The dissociation percent is a very strong
> function of temperature and one wonders *why*. As I said before, the
> Phillips paper discusses many reactions that can go once H(1/2) is produced.
>
 
For an Off-The-Shelf  200 watt tungsten capillary Hydrogen Atomic Beam Source  (HABS)
 
 
"The intensity of the source can be controlled by the flow rate of hydrogen and the heating power. The heating power determines the temperature of the capillary. With respect to control of these operational parameters we suggest different procedures for high and low intensity runs."
 
HABS Data Sheet:
 
 
 
As an aside, it is interesting to compare the JLN work with
that of Scott Little's (Earthtech) Mill's ( BLP) replication effort in late 1897-early 1998:
 
 
 
In later runs Scott used only H2 (at higher pressure) and still saw extensive filament erosion.
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 28 04:35:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4SBYnsr026119; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:34:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4SBYk0w026088; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:34:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 04:34:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <278dc06b-01b4-45c0-99d4-bcae8e09926f> Message-ID: <002001c56379$38c6ea40$e37accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <00a301c56276$dbdbdf50$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00cd01c562b8$70f84330$bc57ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001401c56314$5d880c20$e37accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <005201c5631d$6800a000$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 07:29:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > Mike, > > > Moller assumes ZPE as the energy release mechanism, but the BLP > > reaction > > could produce the observed results and further experiments are > > needed. > > I agree that much more experimentation is needed, and that the > results are intertwined at some basic level, but in > Moller/Langmuir there is no loss of H2 due to hydrinos as in > Mills. > > This is a big issue. Mills must keep a steady supply of gas > flowing, not with MAHG. It is a huge advantage over Mills to have > a potentially sealed system with no need of continuous hydrogen > flow. Basic misunderstanding. The experiments Mills has posted use flowing gases to maintain a constant experimental conditions for research purposes. There is no requirement for a constant flow of gases as such. With the experimental setup Naudin uses, conversion of H to hydrinos could go on for a long time before anything would be detected, because the BLP reaction is so energetic. Given the existence of the BLP reactions, Naudin's setup is a long way from what is required to understand what is going on inside the reactor. The Langmuir data on dissociation indicate that for both the Mills and Naudin conditions, only a very small fraction of the hydrogen is dissociated. The UV energy from the BLP reactions may be able to cause dissociation also; I don't know. > > Moller/Langmuir seems to be more of a ZPE pumping action, which is > also consistent with a *temporary hydrino* being in oscillation > mode - BUT which Mills says specifically cannot exist - and Mills > does not believe in ZPE either. So Mills cannot take credit for > this, IMHO, despite the similarity and the UV photons. It is an assumption that ZPE pumping is occuring here, as in other ZPE-pumping devices. I have sent Mills a copy of my earlier post for his curiosity. He is not "taking credit"; I merely suggested to this forum that the conditions in the Naudin reactor are such that BLP reactions may be occuring. If you go to the Phillips paper, you will find evidence and discussion that BLP reactions are sensitive to the pressure in the reactor. The whole parameter space for BLP reactions has not been explored, so we don't know exactly what is going on in the Naudin reactor. A way to find out would be to insert a fiber optics probe and look for the Blamer broadening. The hydrino lines are in the deep UV where the fiber optics probe may not transmit. Mills uses vacuum spectroscopy, which is a whole other setup. > > Its too bad that Moller can show more in 15 months, publicly at > least, than Mills can in 15 years, as far as an actual complete > system-wide net OU, and in which the testing is performed > independently and with no strings attached (not that Naudin hasn't > made many gaffs in the past). Sorry, but this is not true either. What Naudin is showing is a **cell** with net OU, not an **system** with net OU. Mills has reported cells with very high energy OU for years. The output of both systems is heat with all the attendant problems of lossy conversion systems before you "close the loop". > > Mills has far more detailed spectroscopy etc, and claims a much > higher potential gain per atom, but his plasma is too thin, with > the result being that the high gain is not really relevant unless > and until he can show a system-wide net OU like this, where there > is an immediate an obvious path to self-power. > > At this point, I would say the ball is in Mills court for a very > public demonstration, if he still has aspirations of being the > seen as the title-holder, or even a contender in Hy-O-U. > > Can't you just hear the heartbreak in Marlon's voice ... "I coulda > been a contender... I coulda had class" ... > > Mills has plenty of class and tons of smarts, make no mistake > about that...but can he deliver...? > > Jones > > For the non-cinema addicted, that line was from "On the > Waterfront" mid-fifties... ------------------ The game's not over until the fat lady sings. Mike Carrell > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 28 07:27:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4SERVsr001479; Sat, 28 May 2005 07:27:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4SERUaR001468; Sat, 28 May 2005 07:27:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 07:27:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4298801A.2030107 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:28:42 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (OT) CCC : was MAHG trumped up References: <20050527201547.JJWU2762.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <002201c56300$f1dd7720$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002201c56300$f1dd7720$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Tuned-in a bit late, but always happy to pick up on a good 'mystery' > recommendation: Not the greatest; but, one of Kellerman's best. I must admit, I didn't figure it out. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 28 07:37:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4SEbGsr005941; Sat, 28 May 2005 07:37:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4SEbFkN005920; Sat, 28 May 2005 07:37:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 07:37:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=A5jMx42RInR7jNuGweQmBXCjXZjElXjE3LK8+Wm9jeKr9AE1kYp+mOghADCzXGVx; Message-ID: <410-220055628133614180 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Langmuir Nobel Lecture, Dec 4 1932 Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:36:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406b3fcfb344ccbc59f5931562a5c87682350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.131 Resent-Message-ID: <2_Rn.A.ccB.aIImCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thirty -nine pages of informative reading. http://nobelprize.org/chemistry/laureates/1932/langmuir-lecture.pdf ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Thirty -nine pages of informative reading.
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 28 08:10:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4SFAbsr020783; Sat, 28 May 2005 08:10:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4SFAY3n020753; Sat, 28 May 2005 08:10:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:10:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42988A31.4060408 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:11:45 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Alien Message in Our DNA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Synchronocity all over again. (Not about Douglas Adams :-Ţ) http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news&articleid=134442 or http://tinyurl.com/789jd "Forget waiting for ET to call -- the most likely place to find an alien message is in our DNA, according to an expert in Australia." and http://www.gewo.applet.cz/health/DNA_1e.htm "A group of researchers working at the Human Genome Project will be announcing soon that they made an astonishing scientific discovery: They believe so-called non-coding sequences (97%) in human DNA is no less than genetic code of an unknown extraterrestrial life form." (The latter site is questionable.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 28 08:47:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4SFl5sr004253; Sat, 28 May 2005 08:47:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4SFl3tp004234; Sat, 28 May 2005 08:47:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:47:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:47:01 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host In-Reply-To: <4295DA84.2040203 pobox.com> Message-ID: References: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <4295DA84.2040203@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 26 May 2005, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Having experienced dissociated/detached states involuntarily on a > handful of occasions some years back, I find it hard to conceive of > anyone intentionally attempting to get into such a state -- As I understand, it's the goal of meditation. > it wasn't something I wanted to repeat. Whoever was "at the wheel" at > that time never said or did anything unexpected but I always had the > feeling that he might. That's a big issue. We've all been taught to distrust the "huge silent thing" we all have inside. Various strains of eastern religion have an answer to the question "what is consciousness?" Answer: consciousness is a meme, a symbiote, a sort of "rider" which increasingly dominates our minds as children, until eventually it takes over entirely and we mistake it for our true selves, as if we give up on the real world and instead live in an illusory one, as if we mistake the parasite for the host. Remember the words commonly used by meditation practitioners: their methods involve striving for mental states where "the mind is silent." Or where "the illusory world falls away." In martial arts training you're apparently supposed to act directly without having first to think... where it wasn't "you" who blocked a kick or analyzed an opponent and designed an entire complicated response, it was "the driver." But all this is another way of saying that Zen practitioners, etc., want to "murder their conscious selves" and be permanently transformed into a pure and raw unconsiousness which can deal with the world directly without having to think first. Yet anyone who succeeds will seem like some sort of Moonie, like an empty-eyed cult member. > The tricky part, of course, is getting back out of such a state! Eh, I dunno. Our normal conscious selves fight fiercely for existence. Turning off your "self" is sort of like going on a fast, or like holding your breath: with practice you can do it for much longer than everyone else, but the practice also teaches you to switch back and forth. Yet there is a sort of danger, because you'd tend to increasingly see your "self" as an interloper; as a mask to be worn only in public for the benefit of others. On the other hand, if "self-death" happened spontaneously without warning, it would be terrifying. I bet that all the highly sought mental skills in martial arts, and Zen, and Yogis in India, can happen to us effortlessly and unexpectedly, but in that case we call them "insanity." (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 28 13:23:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4SKNGVL003292; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:23:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4SKN9LC003243; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:23:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:23:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=spk/uRWZmOiiAzKlKn/Ku71aBLuSxKPX1IOU2gJtu4mwr3XiXoQ2o5bXXt3+tsqqE7wSG8Nkz2NKQTKUfg+dAj3Potn/TKKm/0C+lSzllNf643p1f1gwFZskZOVGf9mfkBxyJXgXmajhiuIlHUEbzc6R6x7uN3dDxcdlDWZuuOI= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:22:50 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Insane Host In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050525165207.VNSQ23538.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <4295DA84.2040203 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4SKMwVL003119 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: no. meditation is more of a detachment of the self from reality, a looking deeper into your unconciousness. whats being described here is a detatchment of the sense of self from your conciousness. having done both, its VASTLY different. /the second was described to me by a friend who worked on teh same mental exercises that led to it as me as being VERY similar to heroin. yet another reason i dont do drugs. On 5/28/05, William Beaty wrote: > On Thu, 26 May 2005, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Having experienced dissociated/detached states involuntarily on a > > handful of occasions some years back, I find it hard to conceive of > > anyone intentionally attempting to get into such a state -- > > As I understand, it's the goal of meditation. > > > it wasn't something I wanted to repeat. Whoever was "at the wheel" at > > that time never said or did anything unexpected but I always had the > > feeling that he might. > > That's a big issue. We've all been taught to distrust the "huge silent > thing" we all have inside. > > Various strains of eastern religion have an answer to the question "what > is consciousness?" Answer: consciousness is a meme, a symbiote, a sort of > "rider" which increasingly dominates our minds as children, until > eventually it takes over entirely and we mistake it for our true selves, > as if we give up on the real world and instead live in an illusory one, as > if we mistake the parasite for the host. > > Remember the words commonly used by meditation practitioners: their > methods involve striving for mental states where "the mind is silent." Or > where "the illusory world falls away." In martial arts training you're > apparently supposed to act directly without having first to think... where > it wasn't "you" who blocked a kick or analyzed an opponent and designed an > entire complicated response, it was "the driver." > > But all this is another way of saying that Zen practitioners, etc., want > to "murder their conscious selves" and be permanently transformed into a > pure and raw unconsiousness which can deal with the world directly without > having to think first. Yet anyone who succeeds will seem like some sort > of Moonie, like an empty-eyed cult member. > > > > The tricky part, of course, is getting back out of such a state! > > Eh, I dunno. Our normal conscious selves fight fiercely for existence. > > Turning off your "self" is sort of like going on a fast, or like holding > your breath: with practice you can do it for much longer than everyone > else, but the practice also teaches you to switch back and forth. Yet > there is a sort of danger, because you'd tend to increasingly see your > "self" as an interloper; as a mask to be worn only in public for the > benefit of others. > > On the other hand, if "self-death" happened spontaneously without warning, > it would be terrifying. I bet that all the highly sought mental skills in > martial arts, and Zen, and Yogis in India, can happen to us effortlessly > and unexpectedly, but in that case we call them "insanity." > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat May 28 19:20:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4T2KBO3032327; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:20:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4T2K8t2032308; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:20:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:20:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050528220546.02079d68 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:11:50 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: CF Colloquium/Tribute to Dr. Mallove - Pictures of Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove went from about 8 AM to 7 PM. and continued on into the night with a cold fusion movie. Based upon the pictures, several scores of people attended, who discussed cold fusion science and engineering throughout the day. Some pictures at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html (They will be up for a short while; courtesy of Dr. Goldbaum and Cold Fusion Times. Reviews will be in the next issue.) ============================================================ JET Thermal Products Dr. Mitchell Swartz PO Box 81135 Wellesley Hills, MA 02481 mica world.std.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 06:16:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TDGAf8022123; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:16:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TDG7tw022104; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:16:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:16:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c56450$8b9ed250$53037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: CF Colloquium/Tribute to Dr.Mallove Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 08:15:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56426.A203A590"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56426.A203A590 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C56426.A203A590" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C56426.A203A590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankDr.Swartz, Thanks for the post. Uplifting. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C56426.A203A590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Dr.Swartz,
 
Thanks for the post. Uplifting.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C56426.A203A590-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56426.A203A590 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c56450$8ac450d0$53037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56426.A203A590-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 06:38:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TDbmf8031573; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:37:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TDbkVn031564; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:37:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:37:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vtj8$soe7tc mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,148,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="965156780:sNHT17011072" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Alien Message in Our DNA Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 9:37:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton ... > Synchronocity all over again. > > (Not about Douglas Adams :-Ţ) > ... > http://www.gewo.applet.cz/health/DNA_1e.htm I read this article and was somewhat surprised that it kept my interest. Having programmed in several languages, like Fortran, Pascal, C, C++, FORTH, COBOL, PL/1 during my professional career I was curious about the premise claiming that massive amounts of our genetic code had essentially been "commented out." It's an interesting premise if not a clever one. Ultimately, what struck me personally about this essay was the feeling that I was reading the genesis of modern mythology in the making. Of course, a few clever SF writers have already written about these possibilities. One of the most clever Science Fiction "B" movies I can think of that explores the premise that our genetic heritage had been manipulated by aliens is: "Quatermass and the Pit.", currently available on DVD. For example, you can find it out on Amazon.com. In "Quatermass" we discover that humans millions of years ago were genetically modified by an intelligent race of Martian hive-minded insectoid creatures. Their own planet was dieing and, by proxy, they attempted to propagate their own "likeness" through genetically modifying some promising apes on our planet. Traits like telekinesis and telepathy, according to the Quatermass story were actually genetic modifications encoded within the human race as a way to control us - to keep us within the Body of the Hive Mind. Unfortunately, for the Martian race they all died off millions of years ago and the reintroduced humans with their genetic modifications had to fend for themselves. Gradually our special genetic modifications began to mutate over time into less powerful traits - meaning some still had telepathy while others no longer did. However, even after 5 million years had passed when a Martian vessel under a British pub was accidentally reactivated a significant portion of t! he population, once again, were once again under the absolute control of the Hive Mind emanating from the Martian ship. Chaos and mayhem ruled in the British streets as those under the Hive Mind control attempted to PURGE those not under the Hive Mind control - until Professor Quarter mass (who BTW was himself valiantly struggling to overcome the Dark Side of the Martian Hive Mind that was trying to control him) found a way to deactivate the Martian ship. OK, end of story. Go rent the DVD. Really good entertainment on a "B" budjet! As for whether we REALLY have been genetically modified, I guess the jury is still out on that one. As a computer programmer it is indeed a common professional practice to comment out code for a number of different reasons. Some code is commented out because it is only used for debugging reasons. Other code is commented out because new business rules dictate different functions. Programmers often chose not to simply delete no longer code because they are paranoid, and rightly so I might add, that some of those business rules might get rescinded. Nice to have it already there instead of having to reinvent the wheel. Personally what would more likely convince me of some external meddling in our genetic code would be if some geneticists discovers data in the "junk code" that could not be interpreted any other way other than meaning: Property of: xxx Version 3.440. Activation Date: xxxx Next scheduled modification date: xxxx Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 08:50:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TFoef8027796; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:50:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TFocgB027784; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:50:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 08:50:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4299E517.1030004 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:51:51 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alien Message in Our DNA References: <43vtj8$soe7tc mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <43vtj8$soe7tc mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >One of the most clever Science Fiction "B" movies I can think of that explores the premise that our genetic heritage had been manipulated by aliens is: "Quatermass and the Pit." > a.k.a. "Five Million Years to Earth" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 09:38:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TGbqf8018814; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:37:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TGbnjL018789; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:37:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:37:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4299F027.3050100 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:39:03 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: 2005 Bilderberger on Energy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <8ajNy.A.hlE.d_emCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.counterpunch.com/estulin05272005.html Energy An American Bilderberger expressed concern over the sky-rocketing price of oil. One oil industry insider at the meeting remarked that growth is not possible without energy and that according to all indicators, world's energy supply is coming to an end much faster than the world leaders have anticipated. According to sources, Bilderbergers estimate the extractable world's oil supply to be at a maximum of 35 years under current economic development and population. However, one of the representatives of an oil cartel remarked that we must factor into the equation, both the population explosion and economic growth and demand for oil in China and India. Under the revised conditions, there is apparently only enough oil to last for 20 years. No oil spells the end of the world's financial system. So much has already been acknowledged by The Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times, two periodicals who are regularly present at the annual Bilderberg conference. Conclusion: Expect a severe downturn in the world's economy over the next two years as Bilderbergers try to safeguard the remaining oil supply by taking money out of people's hands. In a recession or, at worst, a depression, the population will be forced to dramatically cut down their spending habits, thus ensuring a longer supply of oil to the world's rich as they try to figure out what to do. During the afternoon cocktail, European Bilderberger noted that there is no plausible alternative to hydrocarbon energy. One American insider stated that currently the world uses between four and six barrels of oil for every new barrel it finds and that the prospects for a short term break through are slim, at best. Someone asked for an estimate to the world´s accessible conventional oil supply. The amount was quoted at approximately one trillion barrels. As a side note of interest, the planet consumes a billion barrels of oil every 11.5 days. Another Bilderberger asked about hydrogen alternative to the oil supply. The US government official agreed gloomily that hydrogen salvation to the world´s eminent energy crisis is a fantasy. This confirms public statement made in 2003 by HIS, the world´s most respected consulting firm cataloguing oil reserved and discoveries that for the first time since the 1920s there was not a single discovery of an oil field in excess of 500 million barrels. The oil industry at the 2005 Bilderberg conference was represented by John Browne, BP´s Chief Executive Officer, John Kerr, Director Royal Dutch Shell, Peter D. Sutherland, BP Chairman and Jeroen van der Veer, Chairman Committee of Managing Directors Royal Dutch Shell. It should be remembered that in late 2003, oil giant Royal Dutch Shell, announced that it had overstated its reserved by as much as 20 percent. Queen Beatrix of Holland, Royal Dutch Shell´s principal shareholder is a full fledged member of the Bilderbergers. Her father, prince Bernhard was one of the founders of the group back in 1954. The Los Angeles Times reported that "For petroleum firms, reserves amount to nothing less that ´the value of the company´. In fact, Shell cut its reserve estimates not once, but three times, prompting the resignation of its co-chairman. At Rottach-Egern, in May 2005, industry's top executives tried to figure out how to keep the truth about diminishing oil reserves from reaching the public. Public knowledge of the diminishing reserved directly translates into lower share prices, which could destroy financial markets, leading to a collapse of the world economy. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 09:41:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TGenf8020377; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:40:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TGem6b020360; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:40:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:40:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c5646c$8bd58900$d0bcfea9 jb4> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <43vtj8$soe7tc mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> <4299E517.1030004@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Alien Message in Our DNA Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:36:20 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Guys, Not to spoil a good B movie but note the fallacy, on closer inspection, in the assertion that there could be a remote possibility of hidden code ... > >One of the most clever Science Fiction "B" movies I can think of that explores the premise that our genetic heritage had been manipulated by aliens is: "Quatermass and the Pit." > a.k.a. "Five Million Years to Earth" It is well know among geneticists that we share over 98% of our DNA, including the junk part with chimps, which have been evolving for 25 million years and we can prove that their DNA has not changed much in that period. This puts proponents of the "hidden code" in the position of saying that, if there is a very detailed message, at least, that over 25 million years ago, in the pre-chimp line, some alien inserted code in that line - not the human line- which first caused the chimp line to split-off carrying the code, and then about 20 million years later caused our line to split-off, and continue carrying the code - since evolution cannot operate in reverse. But it gets worse... and far more improbable the further back you go and look at the similarities in the junk code. At least half of this junk DNA code in humans is identical, yes identical, in far lower species that go back beyond even primates to the very earliest multi-cellular reptilian life several hundred million years back... so are we, or rather the proponents of the "hidden message" nonsense, going to say that the alien code goes back that far? ...or were these genius alien coders somehow able to take that existing junk DNA heritage which is presumably random at some point, several hundred million years ago - and modify it to carry some non-random information, while still looking random, and also to not hinder it from eventually evolving into the kind of intelligence which will be able to decipher it? The whole premise of the "fish bowl" hypothesis is that whatever they do, they will "do not harm" right? It even gets more improbable and farfetched than that, even... but why waste any more time with hidden code nonsense, given that evolution is a one-way street, unless we can show that there are indeed some segments of the junk code which earlier primates do not carry ? If there are some - those would be the segments to examine closely, but now you have eliminated both the 98% which is shared and the ~2% which makes us different from chimps, so how much information can there be in that small fraction of a percent? Jones ANS: why? .... elementary, Watson.... because, like any good mystery story, it is both thought-provoking and easy to dramatize .... and best of all takes a long time to figure out why it cannot be true, and even then, there is the slight possibility that it can be true... poi-fect for voi-tex... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 09:55:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TGspf8026222; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:54:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TGsn90026211; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:54:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:54:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4299F423.9050804 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:56:03 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alien Message in Our DNA References: <43vtj8$soe7tc mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> <4299E517.1030004@bellsouth.net> <003001c5646c$8bd58900$d0bcfea9@jb4> In-Reply-To: <003001c5646c$8bd58900$d0bcfea9 jb4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7h6AWC.A.fZG.ZPfmCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >If there are >some - those would be the segments to examine closely, but >now you have eliminated both the 98% which is shared and the >~2% which makes us different from chimps, so how much >information can there be in that small fraction of a >percent? > Spoilsport ;-) Ackshully, it does look like someone did a hasty splice job sometime in our past. Look how many genetic diseases plaque humans vs. apes. ". . .if we ape-descended things made such a mess of our lives, cramming them full of petty, stupid things and thinking digital watches were a really neat idea, then just imagine what the really serious and powerful lifeforms would get up to." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 11:02:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TI2Jf8022487; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:02:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TI2Hpg022473; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:02:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:02:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <20e.1f20a1d.2fcb5da0 aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:02:08 EDT Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1117389728" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5036 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1117389728 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/24/2005 10:20:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfields austininstruments.com writes: I find that hard to believe. Do you have some factual data to back up your opinion? Airships already use solar panels to power them. But I have not data to back up my suggestions other than it seems logical and safer to build smaller and more mobile solar towers when possible. -------------------------------1117389728 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/24/2005 10:20:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfields= austininstruments.com writes:
I find that hard to believe.
Do you have so= me factual data to back up your opinion?
Airships already use solar panels to power them.  But I have not d= ata to back up my suggestions other than it seems logical and safer to build= smaller and more mobile solar towers when possible.
-------------------------------1117389728-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 11:25:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TIPWf8001482; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:25:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TIPRrH001428; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:25:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:25:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000401c5647b$27d73f20$ab95c1d8 LocalHost> From: "David Rosignoli" To: Subject: Fw: [mysterylights] Texas Ghost Lights Conference Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:20:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Checker-Version: Enter.Net Virus Scanner 1.1 Resent-Message-ID: <_RE0-.A.QW.XkgmCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Something that vorts might be interested in, if it hasn't already been posted. ----- Original Message ----- From: "elfismiles" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:45 AM Subject: [mysterylights] Texas Ghost Lights Conference Howdy from Austin, Texas. I'm SMiles Lewis, founder of the Anomaly Archives lending library in Austin. We're hosting the Texas Ghost Lights Conference this June and I think your group might be interested in the four researchers who will be presenting their data. See details below... SMiles The Texas Ghost Lights Conference Saturday, June 11th, 2005 - Austin Texas The Marfa Lights in West Texas and the Bragg Light of the Big Thicket have inspired countless legends of restless spirits. But there is a growing body of evidence that, far from being mere curiosities, or the stuff of folklore, the Texas mystery lights constitute a genuine scientific anomaly. Whether they are called fireballs, ghost lights, spook lights, earth lights, or mystery lights, these unexplained spooky luminosities are surprisingly numerous. Lights of unknown origin are known to recur in specific locations in North Carolina, Missouri, California, Washington, Louisiana, and Arkansas. Ghost light locations in the British Isles, Norway, Japan, and Australia have also been extensively documented. Investigators regard the lights as a little understood aspect of the earth's electromagnetic energy field. But they could be a global phenomenon of paradigm-shifting significance. They sometimes behave peculiarly, as if they are interacting with human observers like curious animals. This may be why the ancient Celtic peoples regarded the lights as fairies, and why the shamans of some cultures sought out the locations of the lights as entrances to the spirit world. Recurring ghost lights could hold clues to a dimension of Nature that is rarely even suspected in the modern age. Texas is likely to play a key role in emerging earth mysteries research. According to Japanese physicist Dr. Yoshi-Hiko Ohtsuki, there are more sightings of mystery lights in Texas than anywhere else in the world. On June 11, Natural Awakenings - Austin, with the association of Anomaly Archives, will present "The Texas Ghost Lights Conference" from 2:00 - 8:00 pm at the First Unitarian Universalist Church at 4700 Grover in Austin. You will learn the latest about this curious phenomenon from four leading authorities on ghost lights, complete with photographs and video displays. Renowned British author, lecturer, and broadcaster, Paul Devereux, is an experienced researcher dealing mainly with consciousness studies and ancient sacred sites. He is the author of Earth Lights Revelation, Fairy Paths & Spirit Roads, Re-Visioning the Earth, and numerous other scholarly articles and books. He will explain why the lights have much to teach our physicists and remarkable lessons to teach all of us. Nick Redfern is the author of the books A Covert Agenda:The FBI Files; Cosmic Crashes; Strange Secrets; Three Men Seeking Monsters; and the forthcoming Body Snatchers In The Desert. He is the Editor of the newsstand magazine, Phenomena. Nick has uncovered intriguing official British Government files on unidentified luminous phenomena and ghost lights that date back nearly a century, and will be discussing this never-before-seen data at the conference. James Bunnell is the author of two books on the Marfa Lights, Seeing Marfa Lights and Night Orbs. He is an aeronautical and mechanical engineer and retired in 2000 from BAE Systems as Director of Mission Solutions for U.S. Air Force Programs. He will present a fascinating video slide show of photographs taken from two monitoring stations he set up that illustrate his contention that the Marfa Lights constitute a deep-rich-fascinating mystery that never ceases to amaze those who take time to investigate. Rob Riggs is the Editor of Natural Awakenings - Austin, the author of In the Big Thicket: Exploring Nature's Mysterious Dimension, and contributed chapters on unexplained phenomena, ancient mysteries and the Texas Ghost Lights in Weird Texas, to be published later this year by Barnes & Noble. He has appeared on Art Bell's Coast to Coast and numerous radio shows discussing the ghost lights and other mysteries of the Big Thicket. S. Miles Lewis of the Anomaly Archives (lending library of the Scientific Anomaly Institute) will be the moderator of the event, which will include a panel discussion and question and answer session. The price for admission to this fascinating six hour event is only $25. Tickets go on sale April 11, and there is limited seating available. For ticket information, or to get detailed bios and photos of the presenters, call (512) 326-4100 or e-mail Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mysterylights/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: mysterylights-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 12:33:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TJWqf8030709; Sun, 29 May 2005 12:32:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TJWpC5030702; Sun, 29 May 2005 12:32:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:32:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mile-high Solar Towers: political ramifications Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:32:34 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: <744k91lqommmg4pvi5tpc3l723ghkeotk8 4ax.com> References: <20e.1f20a1d.2fcb5da0 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <20e.1f20a1d.2fcb5da0 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 29 May 2005 14:02:08 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/24/2005 10:20:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >jfields austininstruments.com writes: >I find that hard to believe. >Do you have some factual data to back up your opinion? >Airships already use solar panels to power them. --- The only one I've been able to find is a "stratellite" http://www.sanswire.com/stratellites.htm Which hasn't yet been deployed, and is designed to send RF signals into its target area, as opposed to converting sunlight into substantial quantities of electrical energy for distribution on the grid. --- >But I have not data to back >up my suggestions other than it seems logical and safer to build smaller and >more mobile solar towers when possible. --- I disagree, in that it seems to me that by going smaller the economy of scale will be lost. Consider a photovoltaic array 1/4 of a mile on an edge supported by columns one mile high, with a column on each corner. Now consider an array one mile on an edge with supporting columns on a 1/4 mile by 1/4 grid under the array. For this configuration a total of 25 columns would be needed, while for 16 separate 1/4 mile X 1/4 mile arrays, 64 columns would be needed! Admittedly, the columns for the small arrays could have a smaller diameter, but even for a two-fold increase in diameter, (if a quadrupling of area was needed for the four-fold increase in compressive load, only 25 columns would have to be poured. The same goes for the cabling and DC to AC conversion equipment, where a few large diameter cables and a doubly or triply redundant converter could save an enormous amount of money and headaches with the synchronization of the outputs from many converters. Then there's the huge moving shadow which would be cast under the 16 square mile array which, if the array were to be located above a desert, might help to precipitate moisture out of the air and make the land arable. -- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 13:15:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TKF4f8017545; Sun, 29 May 2005 13:15:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TKF1SZ017500; Sun, 29 May 2005 13:15:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:15:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alien Message in Our DNA Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:21:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <42988A31.4060408 bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <42988A31.4060408 bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505291621.56157.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j4TKEuf8017456 Resent-Message-ID: <1OVUbD.A.SRE.ELimCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 28 May 2005 11:11, Terry Blanton wrote: > Synchronocity all over again. > > (Not about Douglas Adams :-Ţ) > > http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__int >ernational_news&articleid=134442 > > "Forget waiting for ET to call -- the most likely place to find an alien > message is in our DNA, according to an expert in Australia." > > and > > http://www.gewo.applet.cz/health/DNA_1e.htm > > "A group of researchers working at the Human Genome Project will be > announcing soon that they made an astonishing scientific discovery: They > believe so-called non-coding sequences (97%) in human DNA is no less > than genetic code of an unknown extraterrestrial life form." > > (The latter site is questionable.) Always figured that our evolution was not contained only to our own rock, it we can truly call it ours, which given the high priority given to secrecy on this by every government in the world over many years. It would seem that knowledge of extraterrestrial intelligence is like describing folks knowledge of the KKK in the bad old days: "Those that knew did not tell, and those that told did not know!". Just maybe someone will find a very old construction site in the transcaucasus region of the old USSR. A very old site indeed. Who knows? Now for some whimsy, would there be someday found a patent notice written in an extraterrestrial language in our DNA?.......and would weird version of the MPAA's 'gestapo' come to wipe us out as 'unauthorized copies'? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 14:30:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TLTwaf019371; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:29:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TLTvVT019362; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:29:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:29:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:29:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Like many who gravitate to this forum, I pride myself in being open-minded regarding many lesser-held notions, but yet have never really bought-into the "full" or "strong" alien-visitation UFO stuff, such as would needed to be the basis for hidden messages in DNA, etc. The strong position is that aliens have actually been here "in our physical space". From my POV, all of the many anecdotal accounts of this can be explained as more like "visible (and real) to some individuals", but still appearing as only the mental-image (and probably from another spatial-dimension) - but not physical. Despite alluding to non-human intelligence being possible on many occasions, the 'physical' part is just too hard to swallow as a factual matter, given that the geniuses at FBI, CSI or other tri-letter bureaucracy can solve a 50-year old murder with a hair left in an exhaust duct, and yet regarding something this important, there is not a single iridescent green-skin-scale left behind from an alien site - nothing except laughable, staged autopsies of foam dummies. Until some physical relic is found and proven, why go further? We know for a fact that the tricksters and con artists are out there having a field-day and charging $20 a pop for bogus lectures and more for bogus books. This is not full skepticism - just caution based on what the past has shown as relevant in an individual case. Of course, as with most everything in life... Its all a matter of weighing the evidence in light of experience... and weighing the hypothetical against alternative and often mundane explanations. But as in the pursuit of free energy, there is some physical evidence which is hard to ignore, so much so that it is like the proverbial "trout in the milk" An encoded segment of DNA would be like that salmon-like. Unfortunately (for the proponents of LENR) the alien stuff is in the background. And fortunately for the LENR skeptics, there is this substantial segment of the proponents of free-energy who also profess to believe "almost anything" from other fields, and much of that attitude could be related to the attractiveness of "shock appeal," or "drama" being the better term, in an otherwise ho-hum life, perhaps. But at any rate, this personality type, even in science and logic, will prefer the dramatic more than the explanatory logic, if there is no clear winner.... OK, no problemo with that as a life-style choice, either... my life being possibly more boring than most (except to me)... yet there remains the little problem that when the *skeptic* wants to impugn cutting-edge OU experiment, well you know the rest. Much of the R&D work, but not all, in LENR and ZPE, is _fact_ or very close, and not opinion, but then naturally that skeptic (and most skeptics would rather win arguments that preserve any sense of fairness - that is how they deal with their boring life)... will quickly introduce an extraneous issue, such as an 'ad hominem' remark, almost always disparaging but it can be from another unrelated belief-structure. Guess you think that I am going to finger a belief in "alien-visitation" at this point in the argument, but it does not have to go anywhere near that far. For instance if you wanted to impugn a belief in ZPE, instead of arguing the facts based upon experiment and mathematics, etc...and perhaps knowing that Puthoff, as an example, who is one of the chief public proponents of ZPE, but seems to hold less-tenable beliefs (to be objective, not derogatory) such as those regarding Psi/ESP remote viewing, etc, then you-the-skeptic might throw-out that 'other' belief as evidence for your argument against ZPE - as has been done on many, occasion, by those who are not normally so intellectually dishonest. However, I appreciate that there are some readers and contributors to vortex with stronger opinions in this alien-visitation field, which I would not chose to challenge... so here is question for those who express that sentiment that 'alien' intelligence is already here physically but that they (aliens) are choosing specifically to be "non- interfering" so to speak, which as I understand it is broadly called the fish-bowl hypothesis .. Anyway, would anyone out there in radio-land who has thought about these things and understands the nuances, care to explain the intricacies of the very important logical argument underlying this, the "fishbowl hypothesis". Actually if it were not for the strong logic of this argument, especially as it relates to religion, I would have to reject the physical-alien stuff 100%, but this argument itself is compelling on several levels, even if there were no anecdotal evidence to go along with it. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 16:37:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TNbSk4015093; Sun, 29 May 2005 16:37:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TNbRMf015071; Sun, 29 May 2005 16:37:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:37:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c564a7$59f917e0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Alienist Amungus-are we being fishbowled Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:36:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5647D.59DB6FD0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5647D.59DB6FD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C5647D.59DB6FD0" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C5647D.59DB6FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones made great post. As one of the excerpts in the old Andy = Griffin show said. " I don't know the answer to it.. but ,I have = thought about it". Today in men's bible class someone asked me "why" about something and my = answer was.. "I don't know". Simple answers to complex questions are the best. On my understanding of ZPE. I can believe the universe is a "seething" = mass of energy. As close as I have every come to reading an expanation = is in Ephesians chapter 3 verse 10. and that is good enough for the = girls I go with. Richard Jones wrote.. >Anyway, would anyone out there in radio-land who has thought about=20 >these things and understands the nuances, care to explain the=20 >intricacies of the very important logical argument underlying=20 >this, the "fishbowl hypothesis". ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C5647D.59DB6FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones made great post. As one of the excerpts in the old Andy = Griffin show=20 said.  " I don't know the answer to it.. but ,I have thought about=20 it".
 
Today in men's bible class someone asked me "why" about something = and my=20 answer was.. "I don't know".
Simple answers to complex questions are the best.
 
On my understanding of ZPE. I can believe the universe is a = "seething" mass=20 of energy. As close as I have every come to reading an expanation is = in =20 Ephesians chapter 3 verse 10. and that is good enough for the girls I go = with.
 
Richard
 
Jones wrote..
>Anyway, would anyone out there in radio-land who has thought = about=20
>these things and understands the nuances, care to explain the=20
>intricacies of the very important logical argument underlying=20
>this, the "fishbowl hypothesis".

 

------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C5647D.59DB6FD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5647D.59DB6FD0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000c01c564a7$42a9d6b0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5647D.59DB6FD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 16:41:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TNfjk4017103; Sun, 29 May 2005 16:41:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TNfhZh017084; Sun, 29 May 2005 16:41:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:41:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A5381.9090102 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:42:57 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3lllJC.A.4KE.3MlmCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Anyway, would anyone out there in radio-land who has thought about > these things and understands the nuances, care to explain the > intricacies of the very important logical argument underlying this, > the "fishbowl hypothesis". Nope. Chuck and I agree, it's merely a question of "food or pets". Mr. Fort thinks "property" either way. Do you honestly think that it's merely a coincidence that the moon and the sun appear to be the same size? For a body of that size, relative to the earth, HTH can you explain the near circular orbit? http://www.geocities.com/area51/orion/3781/moon.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 16:57:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4TNvhk4025064; Sun, 29 May 2005 16:57:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4TNveYe025045; Sun, 29 May 2005 16:57:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:57:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018901c564aa$2e131e70$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: The Cold Fusion Scandal Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:57:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0186_01C56488.A69FD670" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0186_01C56488.A69FD670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Cold Fusion Scandal Such misrepresentation and falsification of evidence happened after = Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman[5] announced in March 1989 that they = had achieved fusion by electrochemical means. Several influential US = laboratories (Caltech[6], MIT[7], Yale/Brookhaven[8]) reported negative = results on Cold Fusion that were based on shoddy experimental work and a = misunderstanding of the Pons-Fleischmann claims[9]. They gave a hostile = hot fusion establishment the excuse it needed to conclude that the = claims made by Pons and Fleischmann were bogus. In November 1989, a DOE = panel concluded the same after a shallow mock investigation of only = seven months.[10]=20 Eugene F. Mallove, who was the Chief Science Writer at the MIT News = Office at the time and now publishes Infinite Energy, a journal = dedicated to covering potential new energy sources ignored by mainstream = science, played a part in exposing the MIT report as mistaken, possibly = fraudulent[11], and resigned in protest over it in 1991. He writes in = Ten Years That Shook Physics[12]=20 "The 1989 reports of MIT[7], Caltech[6], and Harwell have each been = analyzed by other scientists and these analyses have been published (see = references, page 34 in IE Issue No. 24). Each of the widely cited 1989 = 'null' experiments has been found to be deeply flawed in experimental = protocols, data evaluation, and presentation. Each, in fact, contained = some evidence of excess heat as claimed by Fleischmann and Pons. There = is evidence that the MIT data was deliberately altered to erase an = indication of excess heat. The altered data was published officially by = MIT, and it was included in reports to a government agency under the = official seal of MIT. The experiment was paid for out of federal = government funds. This report had a dramatic impact on the perception of = many scientists and journalists.=20 It is ironic that each of these negative results were themselves the = product of the kind of low quality work of which Fleischmann and Pons = were accused. The difference was that the reports said what the hot = fusion community wanted to hear. This was the legacy of the 1989 ERAB = report, but that legacy must now be reversed-and it will be, however = long that takes.=20 Almost two years after they were concocted, Prof. Ronald R. Parker of = MIT's Plasma Fusion Laboratory publicly stated that the MIT PFC cold = fusion calorimetry data were 'worthless' (June 7, 1991). In the same = period (August 30, 1991) after I had challenged this data, Parker stated = that 'MIT scientists stand by their conclusions.' Which is it?"=20 A detailed chronology of this scientific coverup can be found in the = same issue.=20 Most people, including physicists continue to be unaware that low-energy = nuclear reactions (LENR) are real, and have been verified in hundreds of = experiments throughout the 1990s.=20 In February 2002, the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center of the = United State Navy in San Diego released a 310 page report titled Thermal = and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System [13] that discusses the = overwhelming experimental evidence that the cold fusion effect indeed = exists. Dr. Frank E. Gordon, the head of the center's Navigation and = Applied Sciences Department, writes in the foreword:=20 "We do not know if 'Cold Fusion' will be the answer to future energy = needs, but we do know the existence of Cold Fusion phenomenon through = repeated observations by scientists throughout the world. It is time = that this phenomenon be investigated so that we can reap whatever = benefits accrue from additional scientific understanding. It is time for = government funding organizations to invest in this research."=20 A March 2003 New Scientist article[14] quotes Robert Nowak, an = electrochemist and a programme manager in chemistry at the Office of = Naval Research on the suppression efforts that the Navy research had to = overcome:=20 "From the beginning, the idea was to keep things modest. 'We put less = than $1 million a year into the programme,' Nowak says. 'Above that = level, the red flags go up.' Saalfeld and Nowak never gave the programme = its own line in the ONR's budget, but allotted money to it from = miscellaneous funds. 'We were to keep working and we were allowed to = publish our results, but we weren't supposed to say a lot about it,' = Miles recalls. 'Some people were worried that word would get out and it = would jeopardise the navy labs' funding from Congress for other = research. We didn't even call it 'cold fusion'. We called it 'anomalous = effects in deuterated systems'.=20 ' That was still not enough to keep the sceptics off their backs. = 'Fairly prominent individuals within the physics community voiced = threats,' Nowak admits. 'They said that they were aware that federal = funds were going into cold fusion research and they were going to do = what they could to stop it."'=20 That "cold fusion" continues to be ignored by the scientific = establishment, and, to add insult to injury, is being used synonymously = with "bad science", usually in such expressions as "the cold fusion = debacle", constitutes one of the greatest scientific scandals in human = history, and a human tragedy. While wars over oil are being fought, a = potential source of energy that could solve humanity's energy problems = for all eternity is being ignored by all but a small community of = researchers. At the same time, the dead-end "hot fusion" program = continues to receive billions of dollars in public funds. If there is a = scandal associated with cold fusion, this is it.=20 So addicted is the plasma fusion community to federal research funds = that even innovative concepts for hot fusion that threaten to lead to = practical fusion energy soon and to a corresponding gigantic = embarrassment for the hot fusion establishments are viciously = suppressed. A recent example are the suppression efforts aimed at Focus = Fusion. Plasma physicists Eric J. Lerner, Dr. Bruce Freeman and Dr. Hank = Oona used an innovative design to achieve hydrogen-boron fusion, which, = unlike the deuterium-tritium reaction the hot fusion mainstream is = trying to create, creates no lethal neutrons. Yet (or therefore?) the = discovery met with stiff resistance from the hot fusion establishment. A = 2002 press release of the Focus Fusion Society describes the suppressive = efforts of the hot fusion establishment:=20 "On May 23rd Dr. Richard Seimon, Fusion Energy Science Program Manager = at Los Alamos demanded Dr. Hank Oona, one of the physicist involved in = the experiment, dissociate himself from comparisons that showed the new = results to be superior in key respects to those of the tokamak and to = remove his name from the paper describing the results. The tokamak, a = much larger and more expensive device, has been the centerpiece of the = US fusion effort for 25 years. Seimon did not disputing the data or the = achievement of high temperatures. He objected to the comparisons with = the tokamak, arguing that it was biased against the tokamak. In = addition, Seimon pressured Dr. Bruce Freeman, another co-author of the = paper, to advocate the removal of all tokamak comparisons from the = paper. "Both of my colleagues in this research have been threatened with = losing their jobs if they don't distance themselves from the comparisons = with the tokamak," says Lerner who is lead author on the paper. "Both of = them had carefully reviewed and approved the paper originally and had = endorsed its conclusions. For them to be forced to recant under threat = of firing is outrageous. It undermines the very basis of scientific = discourse if researchers are not allowed by their institutions to speak = honestly to each other."[15]=20 If the claims about Focus Fusion pan out, it could be the cheap, clean, = inexhaustible source of energy that the hot fusion establishment has = been promising the world for half a century, but failed to deliver.=20 http://www.suppressedscience.net/physics.html ------=_NextPart_000_0186_01C56488.A69FD670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Cold Fusion Scandal
 
Such misrepresentation and = falsification of=20 evidence happened after Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman[5] announced = in March=20 1989 that they had achieved fusion by electrochemical means. Several = influential=20 US laboratories (Caltech[6], MIT[7], Yale/Brookhaven[8]) reported = negative=20 results on Cold Fusion that were based on shoddy experimental work and a = misunderstanding of the Pons-Fleischmann claims[9]. They gave a hostile = hot=20 fusion establishment the excuse it needed to conclude that the claims = made by=20 Pons and Fleischmann were bogus. In November 1989, a DOE panel concluded = the=20 same after a shallow mock investigation of only seven months.[10] =
 
Eugene F. Mallove, who was the Chief = Science Writer=20 at the MIT News Office at the time and now publishes Infinite Energy, a = journal=20 dedicated to covering potential new energy sources ignored by mainstream = science, played a part in exposing the MIT report as mistaken, possibly=20 fraudulent[11], and resigned in protest over it in 1991. He writes in = Ten Years=20 That Shook Physics[12]
"The 1989 reports of MIT[7], Caltech[6], and = Harwell=20 have each been analyzed by other scientists and these analyses have been = published (see references, page 34 in IE Issue No. 24). Each of the = widely cited=20 1989 'null' experiments has been found to be deeply flawed in = experimental=20 protocols, data evaluation, and presentation. Each, in fact, contained = some=20 evidence of excess heat as claimed by Fleischmann and Pons. There is = evidence=20 that the MIT data was deliberately altered to erase an indication of = excess=20 heat. The altered data was published officially by MIT, and it was = included in=20 reports to a government agency under the official seal of MIT. The = experiment=20 was paid for out of federal government funds. This report had a dramatic = impact=20 on the perception of many scientists and journalists.
 
It is ironic that each of these = negative results=20 were themselves the product of the kind of low quality work of which = Fleischmann=20 and Pons were accused. The difference was that the reports said what the = hot=20 fusion community wanted to hear. This was the legacy of the 1989 ERAB = report,=20 but that legacy must now be reversed-and it will be, however long that = takes.=20
 
Almost two years after they were = concocted, Prof.=20 Ronald R. Parker of MIT's Plasma Fusion Laboratory publicly stated that = the MIT=20 PFC cold fusion calorimetry data were 'worthless' (June 7, 1991). In the = same=20 period (August 30, 1991) after I had challenged this data, Parker stated = that=20 'MIT scientists stand by their conclusions.' Which is it?"
 
A detailed chronology of this = scientific coverup=20 can be found in the same issue.
 
Most people, including physicists = continue to be=20 unaware that low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR) are real, and have been = verified in hundreds of experiments throughout the 1990s.
In = February 2002,=20 the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center of the United State Navy in = San Diego=20 released a 310 page report titled Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the = Pd/D2O=20 System [13] that discusses the overwhelming experimental evidence that = the cold=20 fusion effect indeed exists. Dr. Frank E. Gordon, the head of the = center's=20 Navigation and Applied Sciences Department, writes in the foreword:=20
 
"We do not know if 'Cold Fusion' will = be the answer=20 to future energy needs, but we do know the existence of Cold Fusion = phenomenon=20 through repeated observations by scientists throughout the world. It is = time=20 that this phenomenon be investigated so that we can reap whatever = benefits=20 accrue from additional scientific understanding. It is time for = government=20 funding organizations to invest in this research."
 
A March 2003 New Scientist article[14] = quotes=20 Robert Nowak, an electrochemist and a programme manager in chemistry at = the=20 Office of Naval Research on the suppression efforts that the Navy = research had=20 to overcome:
 
"From the beginning, the idea was to = keep things=20 modest. 'We put less than $1 million a year into the programme,' Nowak = says.=20 'Above that level, the red flags go up.' Saalfeld and Nowak never gave = the=20 programme its own line in the ONR's budget, but allotted money to it = from=20 miscellaneous funds. 'We were to keep working and we were allowed to = publish our=20 results, but we weren't supposed to say a lot about it,' Miles recalls. = 'Some=20 people were worried that word would get out and it would jeopardise the = navy=20 labs' funding from Congress for other research. We didn't even call it = 'cold=20 fusion'. We called it 'anomalous effects in deuterated systems'. =
 
' That was still not enough to keep the = sceptics=20 off their backs. 'Fairly prominent individuals within the physics = community=20 voiced threats,' Nowak admits. 'They said that they were aware that = federal=20 funds were going into cold fusion research and they were going to do = what they=20 could to stop it."'
 
That "cold fusion" continues to be = ignored by the=20 scientific establishment, and, to add insult to injury, is being used=20 synonymously with "bad science", usually in such expressions as "the = cold fusion=20 debacle", constitutes one of the greatest scientific scandals in human = history,=20 and a human tragedy. While wars over oil are being fought, a potential = source of=20 energy that could solve humanity's energy problems for all eternity is = being=20 ignored by all but a small community of researchers. At the same time, = the=20 dead-end "hot fusion" program continues to receive billions of dollars = in public=20 funds. If there is a scandal associated with cold fusion, this is it.=20
 
So addicted is the plasma fusion = community to=20 federal research funds that even innovative concepts for hot fusion that = threaten to lead to practical fusion energy soon and to a corresponding = gigantic=20 embarrassment for the hot fusion establishments are viciously = suppressed. A=20 recent example are the suppression efforts aimed at Focus Fusion. Plasma = physicists Eric J. Lerner, Dr. Bruce Freeman and Dr. Hank Oona used an=20 innovative design to achieve hydrogen-boron fusion, which, unlike the=20 deuterium-tritium reaction the hot fusion mainstream is trying to = create,=20 creates no lethal neutrons. Yet (or therefore?) the discovery met with = stiff=20 resistance from the hot fusion establishment. A 2002 press release of = the Focus=20 Fusion Society describes the suppressive efforts of the hot fusion=20 establishment:
 
"On May 23rd Dr. Richard Seimon, Fusion = Energy=20 Science Program Manager at Los Alamos demanded Dr. Hank Oona, one of the = physicist involved in the experiment, dissociate himself from = comparisons that=20 showed the new results to be superior in key respects to those of the = tokamak=20 and to remove his name from the paper describing the results. The = tokamak, a=20 much larger and more expensive device, has been the centerpiece of the = US fusion=20 effort for 25 years. Seimon did not disputing the data or the = achievement of=20 high temperatures. He objected to the comparisons with the tokamak, = arguing that=20 it was biased against the tokamak. In addition, Seimon pressured Dr. = Bruce=20 Freeman, another co-author of the paper, to advocate the removal of all = tokamak=20 comparisons from the paper. =93Both of my colleagues in this research = have been=20 threatened with losing their jobs if they don=92t distance themselves = from the=20 comparisons with the tokamak,=94 says Lerner who is lead author on the = paper.=20 =93Both of them had carefully reviewed and approved the paper originally = and had=20 endorsed its conclusions. For them to be forced to recant under threat = of firing=20 is outrageous. It undermines the very basis of scientific discourse if=20 researchers are not allowed by their institutions to speak honestly to = each=20 other."[15]
 
If the claims about Focus Fusion pan = out, it could=20 be the cheap, clean, inexhaustible source of energy that the hot fusion=20 establishment has been promising the world for half a century, but = failed to=20 deliver.
 
http://www.suppres= sedscience.net/physics.html
 
------=_NextPart_000_0186_01C56488.A69FD670-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 17:02:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U02mk4027336; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:02:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U02ln6027324; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:02:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:02:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A5872.3050907 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:04:02 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: True Believer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I agree with about 60% of Greer's philosophy; however, I think he has found a few acorns: http://rense.com/general65/mall.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 17:07:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U07Uk4029540; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:07:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U07Sb1029514; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:07:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:07:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <019401c564ab$8736ade0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Alternative Explanations for Cold Fusion? Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:07:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0191_01C56489.FFADE210" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0191_01C56489.FFADE210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What does the Vortex group think of Kirk Shananhan's alternative = explanation for the cold fusion effect? Kirk wrote two papers on the = subject, the first of which is available for download at = http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ShanahanKapossiblec.pdf Kirk = attributes the observed excess heat in cold fusion experiments to = experimental error due to improperly calibrated instruments. What is = the Votexian response to this important critique of cold fusion results? = Are the experimental results for cold fusion so far above a reasonable = expectation for error that they can reasonbly discount his alternative = explanation altogether? =20 I'm assuming that obviously cold fusion researchers have already = considered alternative explanations for the observed excess heat in cold = fusion experiments from recombination to miscalibration leading to = experimental error. Thanks- ------=_NextPart_000_0191_01C56489.FFADE210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What does the Vortex group think of = Kirk=20 Shananhan's alternative explanation for the cold fusion effect?  = Kirk wrote=20 two papers on the subject, the first of which is available for = download at=20 http://= www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ShanahanKapossiblec.pdf =20 Kirk attributes the observed excess heat in cold fusion experiments to=20 experimental error due to improperly calibrated instruments.  What = is the=20 Votexian response to this important critique of cold fusion = results?  Are=20 the experimental results for cold fusion so far above a reasonable = expectation=20 for error that they can reasonbly discount his alternative explanation=20 altogether? 
 
I'm assuming that obviously cold fusion = researchers=20 have already considered alternative explanations for the = observed excess=20 heat in cold fusion experiments from recombination to miscalibration = leading to=20 experimental error.  Thanks-
------=_NextPart_000_0191_01C56489.FFADE210-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 17:32:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U0WDgV008732; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:32:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U0WAci008705; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:32:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:32:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007c01c564af$03373010$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> <429A5381.9090102@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:32:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > Nope. Chuck and I agree, it's merely a question of "food or > pets". Mr. Fort thinks "property" either way. Hmm... I think that "food" is out, clearly... or else why would any superior race have not intervened and done something sooner about the way we are poisoning the planet... they do not want that poison in their future diet, any more than we do.... ...and "pets" well... that idea is clearly out also, as the last thing that you want in a pet is the born-to-be-free streak - and ingrained genetic trait we see in the "Tim McVie" and "Eric Rudolf" mold. Not sure that Paul Revere was all that different. McVie might be a hero, or saint, eventually had not there been a kindergarten in session then, unknown to him. Americans don't mind a patriot killing a few dozen G-men in pursuit of the goal of freedom, but they will hang the child-murderer in a heartbeat. I think the key is not even "property" or "calories" (Matrix) ... but instead, it is certainly "insurance" in the broadest sense - which is the real answer, but not the complete answer ... as that term involves perhaps a realization of what we stand for (i.e what is the guiding principle) that the USA "means" in terms of its impact to other sentient beings, who may not have even known about it in their own evolution - and what could that one feature be that our culture "really" stands-for and what is the one-and-only place in the world, and maybe the nearby universe ;-) ...where it is practiced and encouraged to any small extent at all - and it is NOT democracy - Ha. We have less of that than ever before. No - instead, the guiding principle we have found here is one surprising a factor that perhaps it may itself have been absent in older civilizations than ours - as certainly the "meme" took way too long to mature. That principle is **diversity** And that is even true, despite the fact we barely have scratched the surface as to implementing full diversity here, but maybe as slight as that advance is here, it is a an entirely new meme - even to the aliens and Overlords... Are you listening, Valis? That's my 'alienist' sermonette for this beautiful Sunday... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 17:45:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U0iogV014107; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:44:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U0imYn014100; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:44:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:44:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A624B.2090907 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:46:03 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> <429A5381.9090102@bellsouth.net> <007c01c564af$03373010$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007c01c564af$03373010$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: And I read. There are various types of food. There could be things consumed of which we only have an inkling. As far as pets go, they can be entertaining or enlightning depending on their intended purpose. I gave up this field of inquiry over 6 years ago after three decades of research. I have reached a single conclusion: we'll know when they want us to know. For the truly interested, I recommend Bramley's "The Gods of Eden". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 17:53:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U0rMgV019990; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:53:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U0rKe9019971; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:53:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:53:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A644B.3030804 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:54:35 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> <429A5381.9090102@bellsouth.net> <007c01c564af$03373010$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007c01c564af$03373010$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <36JZPC.A.73E.AQmmCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > That principle is **diversity** And that is even true, despite the > fact we barely have scratched the surface as to implementing full > diversity here, but maybe as slight as that advance is here, it is a > an entirely new meme - even to the aliens and Overlords... Are you > listening, Valis? Ackshully, I think you have come damned close to the answer here. Remember Steven's post on Quartermain's Pit? I think hiveminds are the rule and we are the exception. Even Sir Clarke's "Childhoods End" says so. A cosmic experiment: can a civilization survive as individuals? Are the only survivors of Drake's filter unified minds? Not pets, mind you . . . an experiment. > That's my 'alienist' sermonette for this beautiful Sunday... Well, it's been raining all damned day here in Atlanta. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 17:59:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U0xMgV022290; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:59:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U0xKV4022277; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:59:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:59:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008701c564b2$cf784850$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> <429A5381.9090102@bellsouth.net> <007c01c564af$03373010$6801a8c0@NuDell> <429A624B.2090907@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:59:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: T. > I gave up this field of inquiry over 6 years ago after three > decades of research. I have reached a single conclusion: we'll > know when they want us to know. The problem... and the reason that is not going to work for some of us is.... ....that kind of control capability is probably out of their hands, so the real issue is what will they do when WE find-out before they wanted us to...? Which could be the real reason, unbeknownst even to Author Arthur, that "Childhood's End" struck such a raw nerve.... and the issue is not in his ending, but another. Is that what 2012 is about? and is it inevitable...? Jones Well, vortex knows the anwser... don't you... ;-) Yup: 42 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 18:20:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U1KFWH030535; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:20:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U1KBI3030493; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:20:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:20:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A6A92.6040102 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:21:22 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> <429A5381.9090102@bellsouth.net> <007c01c564af$03373010$6801a8c0@NuDell> <429A624B.2090907@bellsouth.net> <008701c564b2$cf784850$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <008701c564b2$cf784850$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > The problem... and the reason that is not going to work for some of us > is.... > > ....that kind of control capability is probably out of their hands, Oh, puleeeeze. Is this the same guy enamored over the new xBox? > so the real issue is what will they do when WE find-out before they > wanted us to...? Which could be the real reason, unbeknownst > even to Author Arthur, that "Childhood's End" struck such a raw nerve.... Did you read my second post?? If not, (que rod serling) This doktor has found some interesting items: http://www.alienscalpel.com/main.htm > and the issue is not in his ending, but another. That is . . .? > Is that what 2012 is about? and is it inevitable...? Well, yes, I'm sorry, 2012 *is* inevitable (depending on what 'is' is). Ackshully, tomorrow never comes (diabetes will do that to you). Isn't 2012 when ole Sol passes through the galactic ecliptic? > Jones > > Well, vortex knows the anwser... don't you... ;-) > > Yup: 42 My last good year. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 18:24:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U1NqWH001719; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:23:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U1NnNq001691; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:23:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:23:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c564b6$341b3170$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Alternate Explanations for Cold Fusion ? Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:22:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5648C.34255CB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5648C.34255CB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5648C.34255CB0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5648C.34255CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn, Sometimes we try to go to far in attempting to please opposition. In the case of CF, it is only necessary to call attention to a common = "physics demonstration of CF". That demonstration is evidenced by = hailstones. The weather experts have various explanations for them however the best = explanation for how hailstones are created is by studying a Ranque- = Hilsch vortex tube. In a thunderstorm, vortexes form. Some result in = tornados, some form a type of vortex tube where the Ranque-Hilsch effect = is created and moisture laden air is separated and exited from the = vortex. The low temperature exit can be below the freezing temperature = forming ice crystals. The high speed syclone rotation of the " tube" = produces the characteristic shapes of hail stones. Unbelievably, some of these ice particles are so huge they are = fragmented inside the tube and exit as ball the size of grapefruit as = well as ice fragments.Some reported ice fragments are described as huge = ice boulders . Some describe this effect as CF because of the energy produced/consumed = cannot be explained by " natural physics". There is so much we see daily in nature that begs the question " whats = going on here". However, the incidents are so common the reality is lost = in the habit of oversight. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5648C.34255CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John,
 
Sometimes we try to go to far in attempting to please = opposition.
 
In the case of CF, it is only necessary to call attention to = a  common=20 "physics demonstration of CF". That demonstration is evidenced by=20 hailstones.
 
The weather experts have various explanations for them however the = best=20 explanation for how hailstones are created is by studying a Ranque- = Hilsch=20 vortex tube. In a thunderstorm, vortexes form. Some result in tornados, = some=20 form a type of vortex tube where the Ranque-Hilsch effect is created and = moisture laden air is separated and exited from the vortex. The low = temperature=20 exit can be below the freezing temperature forming ice crystals. The = high speed=20 syclone rotation of the " tube" produces the characteristic shapes of = hail=20 stones.
 
Unbelievably, some of these ice particles are so huge they are = fragmented=20 inside the tube and exit as ball the size of grapefruit as well as ice=20 fragments.Some reported ice fragments are described as huge = ice=20 boulders .
 
Some describe this effect as CF because of the energy = produced/consumed=20 cannot be explained by " natural physics".
 
There is so much  we see daily in nature that begs the = question "=20 whats going on here". However, the incidents are so common the = reality is=20 lost in the habit of oversight.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5648C.34255CB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5648C.34255CB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c564b6$1cf3c390$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5648C.34255CB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 18:25:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U1PRWH002667; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:25:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U1PPJJ002637; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:25:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:25:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=TbNaMz/6C7rAWUOJRycPMHqMDeX5sPbF1UijDJ1vsW4kuH4oV+xj5VnLOzip0QWwuS/Yy6T4czueImlfnIOVkMlBlIXZuQxYuU2VyX5CvhXxsTQfxsy9BrzwTSHSo5fC4zuVA4qoGQ95YZjZklPjKTa0vNGKxWtNGepYTvKPvQI= ; Message-ID: <20050530012517.61582.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:25:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <006201c56495$8dfd0040$6801a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > > However, I appreciate that there are some readers > and contributors > to vortex with stronger opinions in this > alien-visitation field, > which I would not chose to challenge... so here is > question for > those who express that sentiment that 'alien' > intelligence is > already here physically but that they (aliens) are > choosing > specifically to be "non- interfering" so to speak, > which as I > understand it is broadly called the fish-bowl > hypothesis .. If this is true, sterility is the key. How many humans do you specifically know that exhibit sterility. They cannot reproduce themselves. In the plant kingdom sterility of hybrid species is often not observed. But the second generation of hybrids among themselves often becomes the case. In the first generation of offspring they produce qualities betweeen themselves. Between African-Caucasions the offspring is a mulatto. On the second generation of mulattos marrying among themselves the result is already predicted from the studies of yellow and green pea mixtures done by botanical studies in the plant kingdom. The second generation is a pure mixture, but the third is not. On the third generation the mixture is no longer a pure mixture. Now the dominant and recessive tendencies make a peculiar mix. There may be a white skinnned African appearance, or a predominant genetic black skinned one. But the dominant genetic tendency of curly hair remains forever. In the plant kingdom of hybrids compared to these actions of inter-special breeding a peculiar thing can happen; the third generation becomes like a mule; which is sterile. If the aliens wished to combine the species of man's genes to produce this effect genetically in humans they should have good samples to begin with: Barney and Betty Hill, an interacial couple picked up in the sixties. That is what they are looking for, a way to create sterility among humans. It may take a generation or so to work, but it works in the hybrid plant kingdom. HDN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 18:31:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U1UpWH004649; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:30:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U1UoU3004637; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:30:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:30:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A6D13.8070509 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:32:03 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <20050530012517.61582.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050530012517.61582.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harvey Norris wrote: >If >the aliens wished to combine the species of man's >genes to produce this effect genetically in humans >they should have good samples to begin with: Barney >and Betty Hill, an interacial couple picked up in the >sixties. That is what they are looking for, a way to >create sterility among humans. > OR! A way to avoid sterility in the alien/human hybrids. One must surround a problem in order to see all aspects. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 18:48:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U1ltWH010906; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:47:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U1lrO8010890; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:47:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:47:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a801c564b9$96a76f90$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050530012517.61582.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <429A6D13.8070509@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:47:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <09pOqD.A.BqC.JDnmCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > One must surround a problem in order to see all aspects. ... or else, if you want to experience diversity and WHY diversity may be so important, and why human diversity might be som important to other sentient (lesser) beings, yes... even those who may have everything else that technolgy has to offer, except ... soul? ...well, there is no way to express in words what I have been listeing to for the last half hour. Keith Jarret ... the Koln concert... words fail... even words with losta-umlauts From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 18:52:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U1q6WH013367; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:52:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U1q37u013337; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:52:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:52:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A720C.6010605 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:53:16 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <20050530012517.61582.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <429A6D13.8070509@bellsouth.net> <00a801c564b9$96a76f90$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00a801c564b9$96a76f90$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4GfJPC.A.QQD.DHnmCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > even those who may have everything else that technolgy has to offer, > except ... soul? Ah, the food of the gods? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 18:53:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U1qdWH013867; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:52:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U1qaHs013808; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:52:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:52:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A722C.1020208 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:53:48 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <20050530012517.61582.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <429A6D13.8070509@bellsouth.net> <00a801c564b9$96a76f90$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00a801c564b9$96a76f90$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > soul? fillet de . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 18:54:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U1s7WH016365; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:54:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U1s68R016342; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:54:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:54:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429A7287.8060902 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:55:19 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <20050530012517.61582.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <429A6D13.8070509@bellsouth.net> <00a801c564b9$96a76f90$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00a801c564b9$96a76f90$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > ...well, there is no way to express in words what I have been listeing > to for the last half hour. Man the bilge pumps! Woman, bring me a beer! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 19:34:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U2YIWH001663; Sun, 29 May 2005 19:34:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U2YH9t001644; Sun, 29 May 2005 19:34:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:34:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c564c0$101fb8e0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Alternate Explanations for Cold Fusion? Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:33:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C56496.1088A5F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C56496.1088A5F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C56496.1088A5F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C56496.1088A5F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWhile on the subject of CF. The reports resulting from CF research = tests indicate some otherwise unexplained energy release.This may be a = reactive attempt by mother nature to protect her own, A Jealous and = modest protective woman can react in strange ways. What is presently = described as evidence of CF may only be the " wake" left by the reaction = of the woman. When the secrets for extracting a cold form of energy (CF) from the = atom arrives it may be from the study of lightning and the riddle solved = by a higher form of mathematics only now in the conceptual stages. We believe we know what forms lightning. We know the stage is set during = with weather disturbances, yet some "dry lightning" happens. What we = believe lightning to be may not be correct. The sheer raw energy release = is beyond present measurement. We do not know how to identify all the = bi-products formed by the release of such an energy burst. What is it exactly? Or as Clinton would say .. it depends on what is .. = is Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C56496.1088A5F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
While on the subject of CF. The reports resulting from CF research = tests=20 indicate some otherwise unexplained energy release.This may be a = reactive=20 attempt by mother nature to protect her own, A Jealous and modest = protective=20 woman can react in strange ways. What is presently described as evidence = of CF=20 may only be the " wake" left by the reaction of the woman.
 
When the secrets for extracting a cold form of energy  (CF) = from the=20 atom arrives it may be from the study of lightning and the riddle = solved by=20 a higher form of mathematics only now in the conceptual stages.
 
We believe we know what forms lightning. We know the = stage=20 is set during with weather disturbances, yet some "dry lightning" = happens.=20 What we believe lightning to be may not be correct. The sheer = raw=20 energy release is beyond present measurement. We do not know how to = identify all=20 the bi-products formed by the release of such an energy burst.
 
What is it exactly? Or as Clinton would say .. it depends on what = is ..=20 is
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C56496.1088A5F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C56496.1088A5F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c564bf$f9570cd0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C56496.1088A5F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 19:47:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U2l6WH006838; Sun, 29 May 2005 19:47:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U2l22V006812; Sun, 29 May 2005 19:47:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:47:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ncWLiNXOTG8jP2jxaAc8BT3VJlzjuoSRgFApTgv5/0c+avz5m1sZtmWcxw4dhHpy0rMZp0V9NA2xLbErLS/hJqJvDInJMaWVDxrJ/HbtIjL3Z6eluISdcg5AE/IR5BPNFAZ6eKwaV8PqhQDLNPdBhIvm/VwzcU5FFA0ASGFfZAU= ; Message-ID: <20050530024655.68057.qmail web32811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:46:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Violet Plant Strains. To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: teslafy yahoo.groups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For about 5 years I have experimented with the Violet or Purple strains in PLANT LIFE WITH PEPPERS AND ALSO RUSSIAN BLACK TOMATOES. Every year from the seed catalogue I see they are getting new species of mixtures, but most sought after is the purple strain. It is fairly unusual in that a beautiful purple vein reveals itself in the leaf growth, giving the appearence of purple leaves and purple fruit. In this regard I have played with Purple Serranno peppers for five years now. Each year I took the seed from hybrid purple Serrano peppers, and the next year they were never purple again. Instead they reverted back to an ordinary very hot Red Serranno. The Purple Serranno itself is only spicy, not very hot. The third generation appeared to be somewhat infertile. The violet strain appears on reproduction of seeds to be what we may call a recessive trait. This year upon growing many peppers from generations of previous seeds from seeds, I see that about 1-3% of them contian the purple recessive trait. I would imagine these may be grown and possibly reproduce the characters of the parent. But I doubt whether the parent will give the same characteristics to the third generation: it is a recessive, and not a dominant plant characteristic. Each year I recieve a plant seed catalogue from the Florida Co where I order seed sometimes, www.tomatoegrowers.com and each year I see that they have new hybrid seeds never before seen, and each year I get this seed myself from cross pollination of bees making their ways cross pollinating from the many varieties I grow. Two years ago they were giving free seed packages of Green Zebra Tomatoe, (an excellant dill pickling variety )with so much of an order, I got those free seeds and grew them and saved the seeds and grew them again. The second generation lost all of the original green characteristics, and became a red zebra with the stripes named after it. Now the seed CO. is selling the same cross breed this year as Red Zebra. This year I have many cross breed seed varieties myself and am eager to see how that fruit will develope. I have a cross between White Beaty, a large white tomatoe and sungold a delicious orange small fruit. A cross between Burpee Bicolor and Russian Black where the undersides of some of the offspring show a purple vein. Most interestingly as I have said the purple strain is a recessive trait, but a small % of hungarian and sweet jalapeno have also developed these purple leaves. I would imagine the second generation of these will carry the trait, but it will be lost on the third generation. In fact this year it seemed to be that some third generations of hybrids lost all of their reproductive traits, a dead end was reached. Many promoters of heirloom seeds say to not even fool around with crosses of hybrids, in that they may become infertile. Perhaps this is the truth, but this is the first year where I have seen that for a fact: whereas this year my hybrid Purple Serranno seeds from the previous year failed to reproduce as seed: they were totally infertile. But in the meantime I have a small % of seeds that show the violet strain, from cross polination with other purples in the garden; and hopefully next year they will give back to their parents what they recieved as pollination to begin with. Sincerely HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 21:43:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U4hBWH020912; Sun, 29 May 2005 21:43:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U4hAbW020905; Sun, 29 May 2005 21:43:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:43:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=FS6eLIHPqQC95LQ4oSZx2AxtBaQB/7opZBdNgSyuaquTep0mcy1q4axfOkdPaJiim9gRfbL2259iLdGUrEXErK8KV4Gi8lg8P0PMy9L1ttM2L6BoQIevoh3YvZExghUnHas/IwozyrIc+gu5L43TOYpEtm9ebFtzSYz5joXgXo4= ; Message-ID: <20050530044300.96287.qmail web32811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:43:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > One must surround a problem in order to see all > aspects. Over twelve years ago a crazy thing developed; this is the epitaph of crazy things that can happen; my first contact with what may be called exterior intelligentsias. I was working with Doc Green as he was called and a mistake was made. I wanted to see the result of rotating a drill bit in vicinity of a powerful NIB magnet, the magnet slipped from his hands; attached to the rotating drill bit, and then became propelled as a powerful projectile. The magnet sees and is attracted to the source, and then spits it out in centrifugal force. I thought "geez" i'm glad the projectile didnt hit you in the eyes or something; I would be responsible for that mishap. I took him home, went home myself and started to go asleep. Drifting off into subconscious I remember seeing many orange criss crossing lines across a black background. Then I could see someone lecturing in front of a blackboard, he was waving his hands and saying this and that as if it were important,as the lecture. I remembered this guy very well, as if I were seeing him before, but couldnt quite place him in my memory. This memory gets quite bizarre. Now he is moving away, far from vision, and all of those orange criss cross lines are rapidly moving away from me, becoming smaller and revealing a pattern. Those criss crosses get smaller and smaller until I realize one thing, it is a much larger pattern, starting to look oval, and then I realize in a single second of time, it is a set of oval eyes looking at me. Then it sets in consciously, it is an alien looking inside my dream. No big deal it is just a borderline dream you get where you see that thing just before you fade away into subconscious. Later I told Doc about this, and he tried to ascertain the meaning of the semi-state dream. Doc was part Cherokee Indian and really good with intuitive feelings and given descriptions. He said I think that guy you seen was the guy who does the astronomy thing on public television, and I thought I guess youre right there, maybe I was thinking about the sky and that krept on in. Doc Green was acxtually the guy who helped me set up an incredible demonstration of magnetics that defies common understanding; setting up 4 very heavy 80 lb air core copper magnetic coils in replication of the Newman motor copper magnetic principle; and building the structure to support them. He was also involved in the preliminary construction of then what was called the high speed commutator, involving rotation of cylinders to accomplish a non-linear contact separation to defeat the induction arc that normally developes with ordinary linear separation of electrodes to defeat that induction arc in ordinary commutators. In our constructions a special principle was gained, but my understanding exceeded his theoretically: but he was the excellant structural engineer placing my theoretical ideas into reality. I still owe Doc a great deal of gratitude and money when it becomes available on fruition of ideas turned into reality. But he moved away and it takes awhile to get back to him. Hell the world moves away and they still even dont have an idea what I am talking about, which is how magnetically a set of coils in agreements in four will act oppositely when you severe those connections and they instead work in groups of two. As Paul Harvey says; this is the rest of the story. Several weeks later I am idle, and happened to be watching a Clint Eastwood movie called "Hang em High" I watch the Judge bitching out Clint Eastwood for trying to keep a just man from being hanged; when the Judge proclaims; "Sir you are in Contempt of this Court!" In a split second of time I yell out: that is the guy in my vision! Doc was wrong, he isnt the astronomy expert, he is the same judge in this movie! De Ja Vu! As it turns out that guy worked in many of Clints movies, but my repertoir of actors names is very dull... What does this mean to the outside world,,, probably nothing, but to me it means a great deal. A set of eyes was looking down on me, and in the middle of those eyes looking like an alien was this actor that worked with Clint Eastwood; I'm sorry I cannot remember his namich but that actors description is apt enough for anyone to follow, and find his name. What is not easy for others to follow is what those 4 coils do, and their future application if and when it follows also. It is the principle of magnetic compression and how it changes how polarity can act and perform. This isnt really a visitation from aliens, but at the time it was couched to be so, revealed in a state to make it appear through eyes to make it so. They were looking down to say it was important to us; as a lecture of mistaken identities... HDN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun May 29 22:26:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U5QGWH007305; Sun, 29 May 2005 22:26:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U5QEJt007292; Sun, 29 May 2005 22:26:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:26:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=EKlmLZZLJRfeguoq6WdVxLZsfR3aqhQFjJIXHG6aug6ctklpWM7QF32monvkpXGpyuG0YyC1CW5o7LUuLI3OiC+1zv8CRqrVLN+ksnMCAx3znihq7zROO1GUwZ+prFJ3cbwQeF+PZIZANiOoM2yUWaKV0L1A6/FRgc/TVyuKFFk= ; Message-ID: <20050530052608.25077.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:26:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Drawing of Norris 4 coil side/polar arrangement To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry if the rest cant see it, but there it is. Maybe it takes awhile to get there in y'alls minds, but that dont change a thing. its just a past subject that came up again, many years old by now...., just a yahoo teslafy tidbit... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/4C/ Drawing of Norris 4 coil side/polar arrangement http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/4C/C4.jpg Estimated 450 RPM of Copper Magnetic Motor http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/4C/Dzl3393.jpg Variable Commutation Assembly http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/4C/Dzl2222.jpg Photos not that great, taken from 1992 VHS tape(ing) from lost copies of original tape(ing): the drawing concept is the important thing. HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 00:13:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4U7Cqj7018857; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:12:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4U7CnwU018835; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:12:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 00:12:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ZpWBydlYvqzzRXi3Ak6Z6arxle7tmxhnfX8mptBWhP6oJJD20Mulg4g+UF+Oe9YZUn/tavMx52ozkcYFkisAOLc2l66ayPEp0q+G5JLdyzup8Bq2dMNzaD7lxPutcakbYoLTVtfhsZ+FlkrXBD/d1eh8z2eixGGPuMnp3aX8txw= ; Message-ID: <20050530071239.54448.qmail web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 00:12:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Magnetic Compression Principle To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <1xeBC.A.PmE.xzrmCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tesla said this years before I discovered it/ a magnet rotor can be continually propelled in a circle without a commutator change of polarity of the field coils! However I did use commutator change of polarity in those field coils, because those field coils had such a huge inductance. This was also not the advanced commutator design Doc made according to my design , this was a conventional commutator design where the electrodes themselves do not rotate, but a provision for advancing or retarding the placement of those commutator electrodes was incorporated. If I tried to make it work without polarity change, the rotation was very weak, again because of the large time constant involved with these large coils. It is not the design here that is important; it is the principle that matters. Magnetics is a very touchy matter: a design that works on paper may not work in reality, but in this case it does work in reality because of the nature of air core magnetic fields, and the volume in space they occupy. In attempting to replicate this on a smaller scale with NIB magnets, the magnetic laws did not seem to comply in miniature, but there are orther reasons why the principle was not reproduced in miniature. It has to do with the tight curvature of NIB magnetic fields; even though air core field coils were tried with that example. This is merely an issue of semantics: can a magnet be propelled continually in a circle without a reversal of magnetic field polarity of the field coils? Yes it can but when the magnet rotates in one half of the circle 4 field coils are used, but for the second half of the circle only two of the four field coils remain turned on. In place of the polarity change of the field coils; magnetic compression on the same polarity is used. If you take a magnetic rotor and put two air core field coils on opposite sides of that rotor you have two options. You can take the field coils and use the poles of the field coils to cause that magnet rotor to rotate. This is the conventional approach. One commonly assumes that the "poles" of those field coils are the position of maximum torque action upon this magnet rotor. This opinion is verified by experimentation; whereby if we do the opposite thing; as is used in the Newman motor; and instead put the magnet rotor on the sides of the field coils; the torque then is quite noticably weaker. This also makes sense; now the poles of each field and magnet rotor are more widely separated, and again the experimentation shows this same result. So what gives here and whats the importance? Well I discovered something purely by accident. I ended up using both kinds of magnetic issues in harmony: but I found out that this supposed harmony is no harmony at all! I was trying to copy what Newman was doing by using the side coil action in four quadrants, BUT I was forced into modifying that design into something Newman overlooked. I wanted to make 4 field coils all working from the side coil action as he does in his models. Circumstance held however that when I placed all four coils sideways to the magnetic rotor; things did not fit together well at all. My field coils were too long compared to the length of the fifty lb magnetic field rotor, and the field rotor barely even came into vicinity of the side coil action that exploits this weak torque to begin with. I said Eff everything I'm just going to change the whole field coil design; and instead of four side coil actions I'm going to try making two of the field coils according to polar design and leave the other two coils on weak side torque design, so that everything fits tightly together. Then everything fit together quite nicely and the magnet rotor could then rotate nicely in spatial vicitnity of those four field coils. Things wouldnt fit together, so I took a leap of common sense to make it right. Thank GOD I didnt use 4 polar coils; or I wouldnt have discovered anything at all; I would have merely copied everyone before me. The next leap of logic became history. After this was done together simultaneously nothing worked correctly according to ordinary magnetic laws. I could apply the magnetic laws of the polar coils and they worked correctly on the magnetic rotor. I could apply the magnetic laws of the side coils and they worked correctly on the magnetic rotor. INDIVIDUALLY EACH SYSTEM WORKS ACCORDING TO EXPECTATIONS; BUT TOGETHER THEY DO NOT! This is the principle of magnetic compression; not widely known and later exploited in schemes of resonance. WE SUPPOSE BY COMMON SENSE THAT IF BOTH SYSTEMS WILL MAKE A CLOCKWISE TORQUE ON THE MAGNET ROTOR INDIVIDUALLY; IF WE TURN ON BOTH SYSTEMS TO ACT SIMULTANEOUSLY; THE TORQUES WILL ADD TOGETHER VECTORIALLY, AND A GREATER TORQUE SHOULD OCCUR. In reality those vectors do not add: they instead subtract! In the place of the supposed addition of forces we find a magnetic dead spot. So we are forced to try the reverse of common sense just to see what will occur when the polarity of one of these magnetic forces is reversed where a truly amazing thing is found. THE TORQUE IS NOW STRONGEST at was formerly the position of weakest torque. The side coil action is now actually stronger then the former pole action, which is the very basis of motor design! Everything has become topsy turvy according to common sense thinking; whereby to explain it; one can only say that the magnetic vectors subtract instead of adding; but the enormous ramifications of this statement may completely escape the outside world as to what that statement actually means! So just looking at the diagram I supplied may initially mean nothing without this background information. From there it should not take a leap of logic to understand how and why a magnet can rotate continually in a circle without a polarity reversal of the field coils. Instead of a polarity reversal two of the field coils are merely shut off, and then the conventional vector magnetic laws everyone is accustomed to then takes place. So back to the vision: the judge says shut up: YOU ARE IN CONTEMPT OF THIS COURT: AND YOU SHALL BE FINED. THE LARGE EYES LOOK DOWN UPON ME; WHAT SHALL YOU DO WITH THIS KNOWLEDGE HARVICH? WELL THAT IS A DEEP SUBJECT; DEEP AS A WELL. I WILL DRAW A DIAGRAM TO SHOW OTHERS, AND LET THEM DECIDE WHAT IS WHAT. THIS IS ALREADY 15 YEARS OLD AS A DISCOVERY; YET THE REST OF THE WORLD DOES NOT YET EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT DIAGRAM MEANS. BUT I HAVE EXPLAINED IT ONCE AGAIN; SO THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR NOW, so I feel I have satisfied those eyes looking down upon me. Sincerely repetitive... Harvey D Norris Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 03:34:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4UAYBto006213; Mon, 30 May 2005 03:34:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4UAYA2u006197; Mon, 30 May 2005 03:34:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 03:34:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 05:34:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Further thoughts on UFO's Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was going to make some further comments on the Yearning for Space thread, but I deleted it, till next time. Since this discussion group is focused on scientific anomalies I've done my best to raise issues which are germane to that. It is, however impossible to discuss life, the universe and everything with out mentioning religion. There have been some very interesting guests on C to C. They have given me reason to reconsider to reconsider my belief on UFO's. Last week I was listening to a man, Michael Tsarion, webmaster of http://www.taroscopes.com/home.html being interviewed. Tsarion is NOT a Christian so we disagree on many things, however on the issue of evil being imprinted into our DNA, the source of that evil a race of reptilians, and on this thing *World System) rapidly coming to a climax, we are in complete agreement. I realize that just because two people, both of whom have a spiritual world view, have come to similar conclusions, proves nothing. However, I think that the similarities are very interesting. Steven V Johnson expressed a desire to make contacts with the UFOnauts. Well another guest, Prophet Yahwah can deliver, the crafts, that is. Normally I would include the qualifier, so he says, after such a statement. However a Las Vegas TV station put him to the test, and they showed up. I assume that his contact information is on the website, www.coasttocoastam.com . Then there is UFO, USSR, by Paul Stonehill, a book which is weird by Thomas Malloy standards. It has always irritated me when people attribute the Tunguska blast to some device that Nicola Tesla was experimenting with. IMHO, they pulled that one right out of their anal orifice. Stonehill says that there is evidence of two craft which came here from Venus and collided over Tunguska. The event affected the World's magnetic field for some time and there other effects. Stalin had a personal interest in the subject and collected various pieces of wreckage.The also found pieces of ancient airships. The book can be ordered at 888 953 2665. I'm looking for a someone who subscribes to their webcasting service so that I can get a copy of the show. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 07:02:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4UE1ito012273; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:01:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4UE1e0t012201; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:01:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:01:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=HfwZuS1QE45SOa+l4Omv6xVGNrohckVesqwuUvJrOS7pCmYZLKHCJeGL+97Jj+3u; Message-ID: <410-22005513013054110 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Darwin & Biomass Energy Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:00:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408069743346fbe2a80d213ba0f7b601b7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.136 Resent-Message-ID: <9iK_OD.A.Z-C.CzxmCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It looks like biomass methane energy can rival that of Electrolysis Cell Hydrogen. ~ 778 foot-pounds per Kilojoule. :-) http://www.darwinawards.com/ Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

It looks like biomass methane energy can rival that of Electrolysis Cell Hydrogen.
 
~ 778 foot-pounds per Kilojoule.   :-)
 
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 07:50:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4UEoLto011648; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:50:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4UEoJnn011636; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:50:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:50:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429B2874.80001 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:51:32 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <20050530044300.96287.qmail web32811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050530044300.96287.qmail web32811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harvey Norris wrote: >This isnt really a visitation from aliens, but at the >time it was couched to be so, revealed in a state to >make it appear through eyes to make it so. They were >looking down to say it was important to us; as a >lecture of mistaken identities... > I once had a succubus dream. Just as I was dozing off, still lucid but physically paralyzed, this hag attacked me. I was quite young and she was real to me at the time. I was terrified. This was before I knew about lucid dreams and alien abductions. Here is NIDS analysis of one of the Dr. Leir implants: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/pa2.htm The site is run by my good friend John Velez. He appeared on the PBS Nova program on abductions: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/default.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 09:21:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4UGLNto010908; Mon, 30 May 2005 09:21:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4UGLKrC010889; Mon, 30 May 2005 09:21:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:21:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:28:35 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050530044300.96287.qmail web32811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <429B2874.80001@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <429B2874.80001 bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505301228.35278.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 30 May 2005 10:51, Terry Blanton wrote: > Harvey Norris wrote: > >This isnt really a visitation from aliens, but at the > >time it was couched to be so, revealed in a state to > >make it appear through eyes to make it so. They were > >looking down to say it was important to us; as a > >lecture of mistaken identities... > > I once had a succubus dream. Just as I was dozing off, still lucid but > physically paralyzed, this hag attacked me. I was quite young and she > was real to me at the time. I was terrified. This was before I knew > about lucid dreams and alien abductions. > > Here is NIDS analysis of one of the Dr. Leir implants: > > http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/pa2.htm > > The site is run by my good friend John Velez. He appeared on the PBS > Nova program on abductions: > > http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/default.html Yep! That happens. Once had a very real appearing dream just before waking up; it was about a woman who was close to me but whom I had not seen for some time. Had tried to locate her to no avail. In the dream I drove down a street and there she was walking to a store. That day, I drove down that street that I had not seen before but seemed to know the way to in the dream; and there she was!? It was as if I had seen the future in a personal way. I had had other similar precognition before on occasion at various times in my life. Now to the web site at virtually strange. If the scanning frequency were sufficiently large and pulsed, scanning and reception would appear to occur sumultaneousely. Say a gigahertz pulsed, like an FSK signal with a baseline at zero, signal was sent with listening gated to the signal's down intervals was used, then such would appear to be like I just said. We now are getting into practical uses of signals in the terahertz bands, so this technology is actually within our grasp. The Russians during the Soviet time used passive listening devices in the 'embassy' that their 'workers' built under our 'supervision'. One was hidden in a giant eagle that hung behind the embassador's desk. These were polled by microwave band energy. The externally applied signal not only located the device, whose locations were known anyway, but also powered the devices to act as low powered transmitters of audio of all the conversations in the room. High freq devices are very small as the wavelengths are short. Tolerances are very close. Miss a tolerance and signal/noise ratios can dive over 60dB. A check of the measurements of these devices should shed light on the scanning frequencies used if they are EM. One must bear in mind that other forms of radiation may exist that we for one reason or another have not seen or acknowledged. Standing Bear ps....if we can get a scanning freq out of analyses of these pieces, and later on the signals were actually found; the next step would be RDF'ing them. Chances are for security purposes the locator pulse trains would be kept short and the location changed to attempt to thwart this. However, if an alien species assumed our ignorance of this and acted with foolish overconfidence...not unlike some of us...then we would have a chance of locating him and pinging him with a radar pulse of our own.....or two. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 11:37:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4UIbFto010699; Mon, 30 May 2005 11:37:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4UIbEYZ010667; Mon, 30 May 2005 11:37:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:37:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429B5DA3.2010603 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:38:27 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? References: <20050530044300.96287.qmail web32811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <429B2874.80001@bellsouth.net> <200505301228.35278.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200505301228.35278.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >However, if an >alien species assumed our ignorance of this and acted with foolish >overconfidence...not unlike some of us...then we would have a chance of >locating him and pinging him with a radar pulse of our own.....or two. > There is an obscure anecdote that says it was a new radar system which took down the UFO at Roswell. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 14:06:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4UL5mto016202; Mon, 30 May 2005 14:05:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4UL5kNw016185; Mon, 30 May 2005 14:05:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:05:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:13:09 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050530044300.96287.qmail web32811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200505301228.35278.rockcast@earthlink.net> <429B5DA3.2010603@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <429B5DA3.2010603 bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505301713.09183.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-PczXD.A.18D.pA4mCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 30 May 2005 14:38, Terry Blanton wrote: > Standing Bear wrote: > >However, if an > >alien species assumed our ignorance of this and acted with foolish > >overconfidence...not unlike some of us...then we would have a chance of > >locating him and pinging him with a radar pulse of our own.....or two. > > There is an obscure anecdote that says it was a new radar system which > took down the UFO at Roswell. Interesting thought! I would have thought that radars of those days were not of extremely high power, although some stories I was told as a sailor on an old MSTS ship spoke of men being killed while working on radar dishes that were inadvertantly and unaccountably 'turned on' while the victim was working on the dish. It would not take much power to do that, however. In any case, a UFO would have to have a power plant capable of orders of magnitude above the best we have in terms of compactness and output. Concommitant with this would be requirements to internally shield components of those ships from radiation from these power supplies. This shielding, one would think, would protect the ship's systems form whatever weak EM fields that we would throw at it even now. In my original post, I only implied finding the craft, not shooting it down, which is a hostile act and a whole new ball game. The only weapon that we could credibly bear on a foreign craft with a high hit probability would be our 'Airborne Laser' that we are building under contract wth Boeing. At a couple of megawatts, its chemical iodine laser, though probably primitive by outsystem standards, would probably be sufficient to cause an insufficiently shielded craft some damage. It is slaved to its radar targeters, and it can fire repeatedly; unlike missiles which take a long time to get where they are going and are one shot deals which usually miss. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 15:33:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4UMWpto025145; Mon, 30 May 2005 15:32:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4UMWnF9025133; Mon, 30 May 2005 15:32:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:32:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <429B94DC.7010509 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:34:04 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: [OT] State of Fear Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Crichton's new book. Page 455: "Has it ever occurred to you how astonishing the culture of Western society really is? Industrialized nations provide their citizens with unprecedented safety, health, and comfort. Average life spans increased fifty percent in the last century. Yet modern people live in abject fear. They are afraid of strangers, of disease, of crime, of the environment. They are afraid of the homes they live in, the food they eat, the technology that surrounds them. They ar in particular panic over thins they can't even see -- germs, chemicals, additives, pollutants. They ar timid, nervous, fretful, and depressed. And even more amazingly, they are convinced that the environment of the entire planet is being destroyed around them. Remarkable! Like the belief in witchcraft, it's an extraordinary delusion -- a global fantasy worthy of the Middle Ages. Everything is going to hell, and we must all live in fear. Amazing." Prof. Hoffman to Peter Evans, esq. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 19:42:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4V2fvto024552; Mon, 30 May 2005 19:41:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4V2fted024531; Mon, 30 May 2005 19:41:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:41:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403cd$11voivr mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,151,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1140607995:sNHT15860072" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Game Over Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:41:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Several individuals including Terry Blanton, Harvey Norris, Jones Beene, and even the esteemed Mr. Malloy have recently expressed thoughtful opinions on the Extraterrestrial conundrum over this Memorial Day weekend. I've enjoyed reading all of them. I myself must confess to having gone on incessantly concerning my own personal opinions for which I will not bother to reiterate here. Well... except for one or two additional points I hope some will find interesting if not entertaining. ITEM ONE: Years ago I carried on a brief but revealing conversation via email with a military officer who had been assigned the job of handling PR with the civilian sector on numerous military affairs including, peripherally, UFO reports. This brief conversation occurred during the mid 1990s. The individual, in fact, had contacted me because he felt I had misquoted him in one of the UFO related discussion groups I used to hang out in. I believe it was in the ALT.PARENET.UFO discussion group. Apparently, the officer occasionally lurked in this group as well. In our brief follow-up private exchanges I tried to clear up any misunderstandings pertaining to what he felt were "misquotes" I had laid at his front door concerning the military's constantly evolving definitive conclusions on the Roswell incident. IOW, don't shoot the messenger! I could sympathize with his situation since I suspect it was likely that he had not volunteered for this particular "PR" assignment. Never the ! less, during our brief conversations it soon became obvious to me that he was not versed in the historical aspects of the UFO phenomenon nor the military's frequent involvement in the subject. I suspect he had little interest in the subject. He told me innocently, and with some candor I might add, that he found the entire topic concerning UFOs a bit overwhelming. He also admitted that he found it difficult to believe in the possibility that our planet may have been visited by extraterrestrials. Certainly not a unique or controversial opinion! What I found interesting was one of the reasons he gave me as to why he believed it was not likely we had been visited. He wondered why they simply didn't land on the white house lawn and announce themselves to the world. THEN he would believe in ETs. I tried suggest the concept (and to a military officer I might add) that any foreign power initiating such a sudden and unexpected "self-introduction" would not likely be taken as a frien! dly gesture by those in charge with maintaining the safety of our nati on's security. I tried to use this as a starting point to get him to ask himself the vexing question as to what might be a more rational way contact might be initiated. Unfortunately, or perhaps conveniently from his point of view, he terminated our conversations as he had been signed up to take a two week training course in some other military skill. That was the end of our communications. Here we had an individual who was given the assignment of dispensing the military's official opinion on numerous UFO matters to the public; an innocent individual who probably didn't volunteer for this assignment, nor did he have any particular interest in it in the first place. Had he been intentionally given this PR assignment because of his lack of experience and interest, or was it simply an innocent choice made by superiors who for the most part cared little about the subject themselves. I suspect it was the latter. Close enough for government work. ITEM TWO: Personally I see little evidence that the majority of the inhabitants on our planet are prepared, psychologically speaking, for contact with whatever groups or organizations might be darting about up there in the vast "Final Frontier." I realize it has often been stated that fear and mayhem would rein over the planet if they were to announce themselves. Such a premise, in fact, has been discussed ad-nausea by numerous groups and organizations including their great aunt. As to what I've been able to ascertain it seems that raging arguments for or against the belief that physical evidence exists strongly suggested to me that we would literally have to be hit over the head with an extraterrestrial sledge hammer before most of the population would sit up and take notice. IOW, I suspect it will take far more than puzzling evidence such as a mysterious lizard scale left at the scene of the crime to make the case. I would suggest we not take most of the Science Fiction stories and films that have come out in the last century as evidence of how educated and/or prepared we might be for overt contact. If anything, it seems to suggest to me the exact opposite. As a society we LOVE to be entertained, to be titillated by stories of mythical creatures wearing both white and black hats. Help them phone home - otherwise blast their acidic guts against the bulkhead before they turn you into food for their own hungry offspring. The point is we love to be ENTERTAINED. It is a harmless, safe and to a certain extent a remote experience. At the conclusion of the story we can turn the TV off - close the book. We could no longer do that if one of those pesky UFOs came down and deliberately got itself filmed with someone peaking and waving through one of the portholes on prime time news. "Game over! Game over! What will we do now!" - Quote from a highly successful sequel film: Aliens Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 05:42:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VCgK5I016414; Tue, 31 May 2005 05:42:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VCgIBx016377; Tue, 31 May 2005 05:42:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 05:42:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT: Game Over Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 8:42:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050531124205.STYQ25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Here we had an individual who was given the assignment of dispensing the military's official opinion on numerous UFO matters to the public; Here are some quotes from people who should know: http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1358.htm It is MacArthur's that I find most interesting. "The nations of the world will have to unite, for the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the earth must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets." Was he insane? BTW, UFO's are very much on topic for this list. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 06:15:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VDEw5I001335; Tue, 31 May 2005 06:14:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VDEvWi001316; Tue, 31 May 2005 06:14:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:14:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT: Game Over Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 9:14:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050531131450.TJDM25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > Here are some quotes from people who should know: My very fav does not appear on this page. It's from Terrence McKenna: "We are part of a symbiotic relationship with something which disguises itself as an extraterrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us." A quote worthy of Douglas Adams. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 07:45:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VEis5I031208; Tue, 31 May 2005 07:44:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VEilRU031143; Tue, 31 May 2005 07:44:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:44:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: True Believer .....in oligarchic monopolies...c'mon! Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:52:13 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <429A5872.3050907 bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <429A5872.3050907 bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505311052.13843.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 29 May 2005 20:04, Terry Blanton wrote: > I agree with about 60% of Greer's philosophy; however, I think he has > found a few acorns: > > http://rense.com/general65/mall.htm The good Mr Greer, fantasticaly while believing large business interests mostly if not all kleptocratic (amorally avaricious), yet is willing to accept ownership by that kleptocracy (his term) of the biggest prize in all science. That is control of ZPE! Control of this magnitude by a small group has in the historic past almost always led to changes in governance as well. We would not like those changes! As yet we have no hereditary so called nobility. The power conferred on the heads of the corporate interests controlling ZPE would soon change that, and not for the better. Many other changes would flow from that supreme denigration of the universal inalienable rights of man. No! Better to live in poverty than to be in involuntary thrall forever to a new round of 'devine right' monarchies and their inevitable wars. Want to see an inkling of the kind of corruption unimaginable power brings, watch the 'Goauld' characters in the hit TV program: "Stargate SG-1" on the Sci-Fi channel. Oh did I say forever? The cost of rebelling against the power held by such a group would be prohibitively high but for one other economic principle: the law of reverse entropy in business. Unlike the second law of thermo for science, in business the reverse applies within a given business grand cycle. All 'free' business are avaricious amoral creatures under the present environment of corporate rapaciousness and immunity of its leaders for legal responsibilities. Want an example? Go and live in Bhopal, India for a while with a family who was victimized by Union Carbide and listen good to what they have to say! Such business tend to 'merge' vertically and sometimes horizontally as well. This is against the dictum of the increase of universal disorder. The energy industry is a typical example. The same combinations own the oil vertically from ground to the gas pump, and horizontally to take in all the refineries, the stations, and ultimately corrupt the officials charged with inspecting it. This direction of monopolization has an inertia of its own, ultimately conferring total ownership upon so few individuals who actually control it that the resulting economic structure becomes overly topheavy and unstable. Its crash, like the end of Chinese dynasties, leaves the ultimate disoder in its wake as the cycle must now build anew on the ashes of the old. The process of dynastic change is defined in the ancient Chinese curse of 'interesting times'. Mao Tse Tung himself wrote of times when death was like the 'blossoms of the spring' or words to that effect. This kind of power should be government controlled. The process of obtaining energy in large quantities from ZPE may also involve higher orders of hyper-nuclear physics. Some of these processes may well involve the control of the shrinking or expanding of space itself, and that would confer on its discoverers control of intersteller travel, maybe even interuniversal travel. Foreigners from off world may well be uncomfortable with the thought of some of our crackpot missionaries suddenly having access to new 'flocks'....their children. They may be forced to action. This action would come quicker if the controllers of the technologies were corporations who legally could sell it to the highest bidder in secret sales to anybody's enemies. Or disgruntled employees within these corporations who either want a quick buck or to open a black hole under the feet of some object of their hatreds would give them unique and fatal empowerment however brief. The thought that their revenge could end the existance of themselves would probably amuse more than scare them. History is replete with many cases of suicidal attacks by such people. This is a debate whose points and counterpoints could and should go on; forever if necessary, until some satisfactory agreement is found for all the world's peoples. Not only this world, but all the worlds potentially affected. Folks in neighboring star systems would not appreciate the sudden appearance of a gamma ray burster in their interstellar back yard. Their people would like the sometimes dubious priveledge of growing old as well as ours. One of the reasons for going to space is to find a place far away to create a lab for studying dangerous things. We then would at least have a warning before a lab accident consumes us. I do not know that the deep study of ZPE would be dangerous; however I also do not know if it would not be; and it is far better to be safe than sorry. Easter Island Earth crowded with starving quarrelsome people and denuded of trees may yet arrive in a generation or two, but at least Earth would still be here and not some black hole orbiting the sun where we used to be. Who knows, if that happens to us, maybe our 'hole' would become an interstellar tourist attraction. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 07:48:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VEmP5I002357; Tue, 31 May 2005 07:48:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VEmNVD002322; Tue, 31 May 2005 07:48:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:48:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=hddlkbcJfMGgHidX4xfkfbHykoRnW7ldwS3YOpuuOu6G8NEPuM3ChLc51mwMakc0QS9zoL1cDBbAN1O002nn+lOJc3BFpD9fwtnXAHbWd/ArL7USSxZHuG0Te+DBtUBkZsxX09Usl4wPbbo4617rMjkVsg9GqgJClhnKDNA6hyg= ; Message-ID: <20050531144810.42511.qmail web51502.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:48:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: OT: Game NOT Over To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050531124205.STYQ25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-141795647-1117550890=:40958" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-141795647-1117550890=:40958 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Captured little UFOs have little weapons - and the little ships, should have come from a base ship. Has anyone considered the weaponry available to the defense of the Base Ship? If the Aliens ever wanted to attack us we are totally defenseless even with the most advanced duplications of Alien technology. Even a small UFO, such as Lazar revealed as the sport model is infinitely superior to our most advanced military fighters. Picture a fragile 30 foot ship with puny particle beam weapons attacking a fortified base ship 100 miles across - then ask what good our deployment of space based weapons would be against, what MUST be considered a far superior intelligence? And if that Base Ship could attack from Pluto or through time, joining forces would be futile. What would space based weapons be good for then? Use against Earthings of course. Unite to fight a civilization so advanced they can traverse the universe and or TIME at will. If they were going to have attacked the superbeings of planet Earth, they would have done so long before particle beam weapons were duplicated from their own Alien craft as shot down by the Peace loving Earthings. Of course, when we are forced to UNITE to defend ourselves against alien weapons - how will we defend ourselves and what will be required of US to be defended? Let me guess - One World Government, disarmament, subjection to military rule? All because the Aliens that our politicians told us never existed before, have now decided, after thousands of years of watching us - to attack the peace loving Earthlings without warning with weapons we cannot even fathom. So MacArthur thought we can defend against an interplanetary attack, by what - grabbing pea shooters and joining forces on the battlefield? The only ones with a proven history of death, destruction and genocide are the Earthlings, which are being watched by an advanced civilization that is simply waiting for us to grown up and realize this. Chris Terry Blanton wrote: It is MacArthur's that I find most interesting. "The nations of the world will have to unite, for the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the earth must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets." Was he insane? BTW, UFO's are very much on topic for this list. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! --0-141795647-1117550890=:40958 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Captured little UFOs have little weapons - and the little ships, should have come from a base ship. Has anyone considered the weaponry available to the defense of the Base Ship? If the Aliens ever wanted to attack us we are totally defenseless even with the most advanced duplications of Alien technology. Even a small UFO, such as Lazar revealed as the sport model is infinitely superior to our most advanced military fighters.
 
Picture a fragile 30 foot ship with puny particle beam weapons attacking a fortified base ship 100 miles across - then ask what good our deployment of space based weapons would be against, what MUST be considered a far superior intelligence? And if that Base Ship could attack from Pluto or through time, joining forces would be futile. What would space based weapons be good for then? Use against Earthings of course.
 
Unite to fight a civilization so advanced they can traverse the universe and or TIME at will. If they were going to have attacked the superbeings of planet Earth, they would have done so long before particle beam weapons were duplicated from their own Alien craft as shot down by the Peace loving Earthings.
 
Of course, when we are forced to UNITE to defend ourselves against alien weapons - how will we defend ourselves and what will be required of US to be defended? Let me guess - One World Government, disarmament, subjection to military rule? All because the Aliens that our politicians told us never existed before, have now decided, after thousands of years of watching us - to attack the peace loving Earthlings without warning with weapons we cannot even fathom.
 
So MacArthur thought we can defend against an interplanetary attack, by what - grabbing pea shooters and joining forces on the battlefield? The only ones with a proven history of death, destruction and genocide are the Earthlings, which are being watched by an advanced civilization that is simply waiting for us to grown up and realize this.
 
Chris

Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:

It is MacArthur's that I find most interesting.

"The nations of the world will have to unite, for the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the earth must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets."

Was he insane?

BTW, UFO's are very much on topic for this list.

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! --0-141795647-1117550890=:40958-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 07:56:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VEuC5I009462; Tue, 31 May 2005 07:56:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VEu8wo009416; Tue, 31 May 2005 07:56:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:56:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c565f0$de461b20$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050531131450.TJDM25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: OT: Game Over Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:56:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wites, > from Terrence McKenna: "We are part of a symbiotic > relationship with something which disguises itself as an > extraterrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us." > A quote worthy of Douglas Adams. ...and the essence of how one can reconcile most these pregnant observations in past posts with: "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." Bill Watterson, cartoonist of "Calvin and Hobbes" fame "It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value." Arthur C. Clarke "Men fear 'thought' as they fear nothing else on earth... more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. Bertrand Russell "So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." Bertrand Russell Yes, there is deep meaning (and ironic humor) on several levels, which comes from the realization that we are not just the latest representative of a flawed animal species. But one detail of that ironic-twist of epiphany is worthy of continuing re-emphasis ... and this point bears repeating since it is seldom embraced by the most ardent supporters of so-called "alien" intellignece - the phenomena in question. This point is demonstrated continually by those supporters who want to profit finanacially from from their own warped-perspectives, whether they be on fostered on the UFO-lecture-circuit, or from the pulpit of biggest church in town. There is sometimes remarkably little difference in the two warped viewpoints. ....and that is that the hidden "symbiotic" relationship is not based in any way on a physical presence, nor on benefiting a particular race or clan or even species, nor on an anciet text, nor on a flawed history of worhipping (mis-identifying) the accurated features of a spiritual presence which is now reaching critical mass, so-to-speak. The "invasion" which will eventually relegate the human genome to the role of a preliminary-stepping-stone for the next evolutionary jump, derives from a self-realized invasion of "pure thought" a disembodied form of "intelligence" - and in keeping with the sentiment of several prior post's including that excellent one of Nick, that there is NO physical evidence whatever: nada, zero zilch - of any physical alien presence, now or ever, but in many cases sbstituing the word "divine" for "alien" can move one over many hurtles. There is an extremely large amount of evidence for a subtle guiding "influence" which itself has only one common trait - extremely focused "intellignece" taking human form and directing the subject-species along a particular path - to eventually set the stage for "childhood's end." WE will be not only be conquered from within, we will become ultimately victorious because of relinquishing our prior mis-identity. IOW we are not (eventually) to be identified as a reprentative of a particular class of animal, but of a partiuclar class of thinker. That subtle disembodied influence, in our preceding history, often called "angelic" or divine, no called "alien" has come in the form of the limitations inherent when an advanced "mentality" being transfered to a particular "carrier" such as a historical fugure - Buddha, Yeshua the Nazarean, Mohammed, but also... more relevant to the world of 2005 are those more modern but equally-astounding mentalities, so far ahead of their time - such as Isaac Newton and Paul Dirac. I place these later in importance above the former in some ways. The former got us to the stage of giving up some of our shared and natural animal brutality, but the later have brought us nearer to the stage of giving up some of our natural in-bred ignorance. That task will take a while, if we are to prove that intelligence has any survival value. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 08:45:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VFio5I007090; Tue, 31 May 2005 08:44:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VFimhR007076; Tue, 31 May 2005 08:44:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:44:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Freezing Gas Prices Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:44:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050531154440.WXCA25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-4f_GB.A.fuB.vZInCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can't do that, but you *can* freeze your engine: http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?s=3390503 "A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon." A new Hutchison Effect! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 09:11:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VGBe5I028519; Tue, 31 May 2005 09:11:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VGBbrd028494; Tue, 31 May 2005 09:11:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:11:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Freezing Gas Prices Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:11:30 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20050531154440.WXCA25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050531154440.WXCA25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200505311811.30362.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Terry! This is an interesting story. There was an old saw among boat owners and engineers in Alaska - Never Buy a Warm Water Boat. They were all convinced that a used boat that had spent a long time in warm water was more apt to wear out faster. This was purely based purely on anecdotal observation, and Alaska water never gets below 29 degrees Fahrenheit, but it may turn out to have at least some scientific basis. Knuke Am Dienstag, 31. Mai 2005 17:44 schrieb Terry Blanton: > Can't do that, but you *can* freeze your engine: > > http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?s=3390503 > > "A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 > miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine > has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon." > > A new Hutchison Effect! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 09:29:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VGTL5I005830; Tue, 31 May 2005 09:29:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VGTKFk005818; Tue, 31 May 2005 09:29:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:29:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009601c565fd$e20d7070$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: MAHG meets the old In & Out Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:29:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Besides cold-fusion itself, there are half a dozen fairly reliable similar experiments in the literature - all the results of recent attempts are harnessing OU- which share a common finding: that being "excess heat" (of a modest amount COP 2-3), which is being derived arguably from the extended presence of a "temporarily bare" proton, following an electric discharge or glowing filament - as in the recent MAHG reports. http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm Among these other experiments are the arc discharge of Graneau, and other discharge experiments of Mizuno, Correa, etc. Anyway, since a lesser arc-discharge is also seen in the most common "prime mover" of all - the ICE (internal combustion engine), not to mention a potential cavitation effect, then it follows.... IF (big IF) there is a quick and easy way to produce a self-powered ZPE engine, based on the principle of maximizing the "temporarily bare proton" effect to cohere ZPE in the form of the signature 3.4 eV UV photon - then such an engine-design might not look all that different from the often-ridiculed "Papp engine," ...except, it must be re-designed in the context of MAHG and some prior input from Fred Sparber and Frank Grimer. The Papp engine can be seen in Issue #51 of Infinite-Energy, September/October 2003 http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html As far-fetched as this sounds, there might be something to it - but which Papp missed, because he thought (and was obsessed with) the probably false notion that he had found a special mixture of noble gases or radioactivity or some other nonsense, when in fact - it was pure accident. The engine did apparently work on occasion, according to sources, but not reliably. In fact, the problem could well be that the "active" gas in his engine, unbeknownst even to him, was hydrogen - which was a common contaminant of helium and argon enrichment during the time period when he was promoting his scheme. Furthermore, the engine only worked when the seals failed (my interpretation to follow). Assuming Zero Point Energy (ZPE) and the Casimir Effect can work to alter the properties of space itself at low temperatures and alter the "ideal" gas laws after a mass/energy of a 3.4 eV photon is attracted to a bare proton, and then removed from that "space", then such a "dump" of free-energy in our 3-space will be "readjusted" by a corresponding loss in volumetric heat or compreture in the spatial volume. This can be doubly-beneficial when a Carnot engine (of the reciprocating variety) is involved, because one can achieve not-only OU torque based on an initial gas expansion - which is limited to perhaps 2.5 times the input energy, which is not enough for self-power, but also if an enhanced cooling effect follows (as has been reported in the literature) then torque can be derived from the enhanced vacuum-cooling-effect following expansion. Should the operating regime of the engine be tailored optimally to achieve maximum P*V cooling and adiabatic effects be avoided, then a PUSH-PULL scenario is possible, resulting in self-power from a heat engine that is still Carnot limited but ZPE powered.. The "Inversion Temperature" can become an important factor in getting a "Carnot Spread" which is wide enough so that an OU of only 2.5 will be adequate to drive a heat engine, in reciprocating mode, such as sealed Papp-type engine. Even then it is touchy. Note: Papp himself did not do this, at least not reliably. The process demands that the gas fill be quite low the bottom of the cycle (perhaps one-tenth bar), but that a high compression ratio (15-1) be in place, such that even at TDC the internal pressure prior to the arc firing though the gas, must only be 1-2 bar. This gives elbow-room for a massive temperature and pressure swing on both half-strokes, which - in effect- will "power the upstroke" as well as the downstroke in a sealed engine (in my dreams at least) The little-know inversion temperature is " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands -an then takes place below that temperature. Above that temperature it heats under expansion." Note the oddity in this table for Helium, which may be a key Gas(or medium) Inversion Temp Deg K Space 0-3 Helium 51 Hydrogen 205 Neon 242 Nitrogen 621 Argon 723 Krypton 727 Oxygen 893 Xenon 1427 Zero Deg C = 272 Deg K Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K Note that Papp used Krypton and Argon which are counter productive in large ratios. If one wanted to tailor the Inversion temperature to match ambient, and hopefully the ICE would operate at net-ambient, which is approx 300K then one would probably use mostly hydrogen with some argon and helium (both being putative Hy catalysts to boot). Of all the anecdotal tales and stories in the lore of OU, the Papp machine - especially in the context of the huge (reportedly) lawsuit that Cal-Tech and Feynman had to pay, stands-out as an interesting one, with many loose-ends and a total embarrassment for the mainstream which was covered-up in the press. Obviously Papp was blind as to what was happening on those occasions when it did go OU, because it was counter-intuitive. Papp would never have provided the necessary vacuum fill, nor have thought that plain old hydrogen was the key - so whatever results he did achieve was blind luck due to outgassing though his seals to get into the vacuum regime. And then the effect did not last long - so the poor guy was in constant frustration because he knew he had seen self-running on occasion, but could never get it on-demand. I wish I could get my hands on that sealed-engine of his for a while, however, and test this hypothesis.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 10:50:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VHoB5I019125; Tue, 31 May 2005 10:50:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VHo8T1019090; Tue, 31 May 2005 10:50:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:50:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:49:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: More MAHG & BLP In-reply-to: <42975036.7050004 pobox.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Jones Beene wrote: >> >> >> >>> Actually I am hoping for a local player to step in at the last >>> second with the self-powered unit, but it could also be Moller or >>> Mills or Storms or Shoulders or Tessien instead. The 2nd Law will >>> crumble soon. IMHO the big prize for breaking the law (2nd Law) >>> and throwing physics into the disarray it rightly deserves for >>> ingrained pig-headedness - will go for the device itself, and not >>> the underlying theory, which may take a generation to flesh out. >>> Let me repeat one thing - massive heat OU is NOT going to be >>> enough - you must demonstrate a self-powered unit to remove all >>> doubt. >>> >>> >> >> >> If such a device existed, how could one decide if its performance was a >> result of violating the first law rather than the second law? >> >> > Put the whole thing in a big box, and measure the temperature of > everything and the total internal energy of everything in the box, to > determine exactly how much energy is present. > > Let it run for a while. > > Repeat the measurements. (Granted, this is a gedanken experiment -- > really _doing_ this would be very hard.) > > The first law says that if the box is sealed, you always get the same > number (I think!). > > The second law says you can't cool off the box by converting the heat > energy into mechanical energy, so its violations are harder to detect -- > you need to look at how the energy is distributed inside the box because > other effects (non-violations) can change the temperature of the system > as a whole. > > If I understand the concept of ZPE correctly, it's a violation of the > first law, not the second law, because it adds energy to the system > without an apparent source. It doesn't just involve converting heat > energy into something more useful. > > And as Jones points out thermo still stands if ZPE violates the first > law; we just need to enlarge the system adequately to include a place > which lost energy while we were gaining it. Violating the second law > would actually be more serious, I think; it's not clear how you'd fix > thermodynamics to deal with a second law violation. > I guess there is no way to refute the first law as it can always be saved. So in sense it is irrelevant to science, although it remains relevant to engineering. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 11:39:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VIdAHN013705; Tue, 31 May 2005 11:39:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VId3l9013598; Tue, 31 May 2005 11:39:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:39:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Humor: Hoaxing Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:38:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050531183852.OLKU4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Watch me pull a rabbit outta my . . . That trick never works. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/29/ING5TCTIKI46.DTL "Authorities in 1953 found three dazed young men on a Georgia back road, the headlights of their truck illuminating a 2-foot hairless humanoid creature lifeless on the road. The Air Force and a horde of reporters descended. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 11:59:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VIwpHN023653; Tue, 31 May 2005 11:58:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VIwaiG023538; Tue, 31 May 2005 11:58:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:58:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <44038i$11hrk5v mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,154,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1126027455:sNHT21472326" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: Game Over Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:58:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-mH7mC.A.lvF.aPLnCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton ... > Here are some quotes from people who should know: > > My very fav does not appear on this page. > It's from Terrence McKenna: > > "We are part of a symbiotic relationship with something > which disguises itself as an extraterrestrial invasion so > as not to alarm us." > > A quote worthy of Douglas Adams. A worthy premise indeed. Ultimately, it may turn out to be a more accurate interpretation of events than what many abductees would like to admit. It was probably channeled by the spirit of Mr. Adam?s himself. ;-) Bog rest his soul. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 12:08:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VJ8IHN028504; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:08:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VJ8DQe028459; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:08:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:08:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <44038i$11hsbm1 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,154,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1126051521:sNHT38875658" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Freezing Gas Prices Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:07:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3VrrwC.A.k8G.bYLnCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton ... > Can't do that, but you *can* freeze your engine: > > http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?s=3390503 > > "A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage > anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David > Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known > to get close to 120 miles a gallon." > > A new Hutchison Effect! I wish there was more detail concerning the freezing process itself. Would one need to cryogenically freeze targeted engine parts just one time during the manufacturing process or would one need to perform a routine maintenance schedule of cryogenically freezing various parts during the entire life of the engine? Surely it would make a big difference as to how economical such a process would be to implement ? assuming there really was something to these claims. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 12:25:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VJPDHN005852; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:25:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VJPAn4005779; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:25:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:25:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <015401c56616$711a9b90$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050531183852.OLKU4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [OT] Humor: Hoaxing Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:25:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A snickering phonation, sounding all too much like Yiddish/Celtic, reverberates over the cyber-waves, > Watch me pull a rabbit outta my . . . I'll snatch onto that gaping seque, as it involves one of my favorite pathologies, to wit: "Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy" which is said (no kidding - in Medical Literature) to be a form of "dissociative psychological disorder" known generically as a "factitious" disorder. The "by proxy" part, not to mention the factitious part, does that other Terry proud - you know, the one called Gilliam & his crew of full-monty snake charmers... all demonstrating once again that ductwork is more than a metaphor for our future limitations as an inter-connected culture in the NWO, and/or that science is intrinsically more humorous than Yiddish spoken with an Irish accent. Signed, Harry Tuttle, neopathologist prankster, extraordinaire Certainly, the hare-bearer in question may have been the model for the protoypcial "big-boned, cherubic blonde" - a goy who can do it better than a boy ...i.e. there's this alien woman, she's not Jewish, norYiddish, nor even pure-Mic. Not a big deal, right? The NYT can't get enough of this woman and her shocking shiksosity, and... man, can she down a sub. Ronnie: [Farley - totally amazed at what he has just witnessed] Wow! My Mom's the only other woman I know who can eat a sub like that! Connie: [Michelle, big-boned cherubic conehead, pointing at Ronnie's sub] You going to finish that, or what ? The world is becomming such a strange and diverse place these days... or is that weird and wonderful... or wired and wanderful? "Caraid O'Brien must rank among Yiddish culture's most ardent and least likely champions. An actress, playwright and translator, she is 29, Irish and Roman Catholic, a big-boned, cherubic blonde - a goy! - with a bachelor's degree in Yiddish literature who speaks English with a hint of lilting brogue and Yiddish with disarming fluency." 'Everyone is interested in the idea of this strapping Irish girl with Yiddish coming out of her mouth,' Ms. O'Brien said with a smile." Yeah, it's sooo interesting, isn't it, that someone might study a language and heritage not her own. I mean, I like to freak people out by speaking French--I am not remotely French, and yet I speak the language (or try to) and study French literature. Is what's fascinating that Yiddish is not a popular language for anyone to study, or that this particular woman happens to be large, blonde, and can down a gyro like a hero? Would there even be a story about her in the Times if she were small and Jewish? I tried to propose to Connie on our first date, but Oy... she laughed like it was a bobkis schmekel. I'm sure there is another conehead joke in there somewhere.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 12:26:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VJPxHN006289; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:25:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VJPrPX006233; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:25:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:25:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT: Game Over Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:25:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050531192539.PQJY4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > It was probably channeled by the spirit of Mr. Adam?s himself. ;-) Now that is really funny considering that Douglas was an atheist. No, he would never channel and thereby admit he was wrong. :-) Besides, McKenna preceded Doug's exit by one year. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 12:37:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VJb9HN012676; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:37:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VJb5AU012651; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:37:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:37:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [OT] Humor: Hoaxing Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:36:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050531193656.PXWH4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > I tried to propose to Connie on our first date, but Oy... she > laughed like it was a bobkis schmekel. If only it hadn't been for the shikker moyel at my bris, I'd have replaced John Holmes. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 12:44:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VJhkHN016204; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:43:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VJhhEa016158; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:43:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:43:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003301c56617$7648f160$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> From: "jonfli" To: References: <44038i$11hsbm1 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Freezing Gas Prices Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:32:19 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cyrogenic treating of engine parts for high performance and increased reliability has been going on for some time. I have personally witnessed performance increases in small gasoline powered racing model engines as well as increased bearing life and overall reliability. One company that claims benefits to their process is- http://www.300below.com/dragracing.htm There is some technical info on their site. Jon F ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:07 PM Subject: Re: Freezing Gas Prices > > From: Terry Blanton > ... > > Can't do that, but you *can* freeze your engine: > > > > http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?s=3390503 > > > > "A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage > > anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David > > Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known > > to get close to 120 miles a gallon." > > > > A new Hutchison Effect! > > I wish there was more detail concerning the freezing process itself. Would one need to cryogenically freeze targeted engine parts just one time during the manufacturing process or would one need to perform a routine maintenance schedule of cryogenically freezing various parts during the entire life of the engine? Surely it would make a big difference as to how economical such a process would be to implement ? assuming there really was something to these claims. > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.0 - Release Date: 5/30/2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 12:46:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VJkVHN017582; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:46:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VJkTOb017556; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:46:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:46:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c5661a$1f6dce80$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20050531131450.TJDM25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <002a01c565f0$de461b20$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: OT: Game Over Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:51:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >in keeping with the > sentiment of several prior post's including that excellent one of > Nick, that there is NO physical evidence whatever: nada, zero > zilch - of any physical alien presence, now or ever, but in many > cases sbstituing the word "divine" for "alien" can move one over > many hurtles. This is the delemma. If even 10 % of the UFO sightings and alien contacts in the world are authentic (actually believed by the subject and not faked), then the Earth is undeniably the crossroads of the universe! And, what would cause us to be at this juncture? Surely not our geographical location in this galaxy. The only logical explanation is that the human race is really, really, REALLY important to someone or some group. Now, couple this with the fact that for all of these visits and attention paid to us, we have no physical evidence. A conclusion can be drawn from this, that these entities, who are so determined to convince us of the existance of advanced alien technologies, have in fact almost no power to affect us on a material level, that sightings may merely be visions inserted into peoples brains and not actual sightings at all! > There is an extremely large amount of evidence for a subtle > guiding "influence" which itself has only one common trait - > extremely focused "intellignece" taking human form and directing > the subject-species along a particular path Many New Agers have their spirit guides whom they believe to be spiritual benefactors. Might these be demons who are acting nice for now because it fits their purpose. These demons (fallen angels) do not take their marching orders from God. When the time is right they may manifest themselves more openly, masquerading as aliens, because we have been primed for decades to receive them as technically advanced aliens and not as demons. This plan may not be going well because of all the scary movies. The nasty aliens ginned up by Hollywood are so bad they could make an honest to God demon look like a descent fellow. If there is a hypothesis that fits the facts better than this one I haven't heard it yet. Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 12:48:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VJmfHN018692; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:48:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VJmdQn018663; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:48:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:48:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016f01c56619$ba712540$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050531193656.PXWH4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [OT] Humor: Hoaxing Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:48:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > If only it hadn't been for the shikker moyel at my bris, I'd > have replaced John Holmes. Yes, the most important thing in any schmucks future appreciation of holy things is a sandek with a steady hand... or else it is going to be sansdik, so-to-speak... ...and if you think that is funny-punny, read-up on the Visigoth monarch name Sisebut ... or something thereabouts... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 14:03:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VL3AVF021848; Tue, 31 May 2005 14:03:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VL35aM021789; Tue, 31 May 2005 14:03:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:03:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vti0$a2fh9t mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,154,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="338150717:sNHT23519640" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: Game Over Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:02:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "revtec" ... > Many New Agers have their spirit guides whom they > believe to be spiritualbenefactors. Might these be > demons who are acting nice for now because it > fits their purpose. These demons (fallen angels) do > not take their marching orders from God. When the > time is right they may manifest themselves more > openly, masquerading as aliens, because we have been > primed for decades to receive them as technically > advanced aliens and not as demons. This plan > may not be going well because of all the scary movies. > The nasty aliens ginned up by Hollywood are so bad they > could make an honest to God demon > look like a descent fellow. > > If there is a hypothesis that fits the facts better > than this one I haven't > heard it yet. > > Jeff And on that note I think this might be a good time to reintroduce those famous quotations out of Kubrick's movie "Dr. Strangelove." Someone within this group had been responsible for bringing those little gems to our attention about a year ago. Can't remember who. Was that you, Mr. Blanton? Might be a good idea to reintroduce them again. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 14:29:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4VLStnV002899; Tue, 31 May 2005 14:28:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4VLSqUb002884; Tue, 31 May 2005 14:28:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:28:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT: Game Over Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:28:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050531212845.SRWH4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > And on that note I think this might be a good time to reintroduce those famous quotations out of Kubrick's movie "Dr. Strangelove." > > Someone within this group had been responsible for bringing those little gems to our attention about a year ago. Can't remember who. Was that you, Mr. Blanton? Not me this time. BUT, my favorite is: "Yeeeeeehaaaaaawwwhhh. Whooooooeeeeeeeeee." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue May 31 17:11:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j510BXnV019654; Tue, 31 May 2005 17:11:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j510BPrV019586; Tue, 31 May 2005 17:11:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:11:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <009601c565fd$e20d7070$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, jonesb9@pacbell.net Subject: RE: MAHG meets the old In & Out Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:11:18 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 00:11:19.0666 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F9F8D20:01C5663E] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, The Papp engine is the subject of a modest project in Palo Alto. Ken Rauen was working on it as an assistant, and may be back there now after leaving for awhile. As you may know, Ken ran the lab at Infinite Energy. There is also another project attempting to develop the engine in San Jose by a fellow who knew Papp. We were underwhelmed when we visited some years ago. I would steer clear of this guy and his associates. I'm swamped just now. When I have some time, I'll track down Ken, if you like, and send him this very interesting post. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: "vortex" >Subject: MAHG meets the old In & Out >Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:29:13 -0700 > >Besides cold-fusion itself, there are half a dozen fairly reliable similar >experiments in the literature - all the results of recent attempts are >harnessing OU- which share a common finding: that being "excess heat" (of a >modest amount COP 2-3), which is being derived arguably from the extended >presence of a "temporarily bare" proton, following an electric discharge or >glowing filament - as in the recent MAHG reports. >http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm > >Among these other experiments are the arc discharge of Graneau, and other >discharge experiments of Mizuno, Correa, etc. > >Anyway, since a lesser arc-discharge is also seen in the most common "prime >mover" of all - the ICE (internal combustion engine), not to mention a >potential cavitation effect, then it follows.... > >IF (big IF) there is a quick and easy way to produce a self-powered ZPE >engine, based on the principle of maximizing the "temporarily bare proton" >effect to cohere ZPE in the form of the signature 3.4 eV UV photon - then >such an engine-design might not look all that different from the >often-ridiculed "Papp engine," > >...except, it must be re-designed in the context of MAHG and some prior >input from Fred Sparber and Frank Grimer. The Papp engine can be seen in >Issue #51 of Infinite-Energy, September/October 2003 >http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html > >As far-fetched as this sounds, there might be something to it - but which >Papp missed, because he thought (and was obsessed with) the probably false >notion that he had found a special mixture of noble gases or radioactivity >or some other nonsense, when in fact - it was pure accident. The engine did >apparently work on occasion, according to sources, but not reliably. In >fact, the problem could well be that the "active" gas in his engine, >unbeknownst even to him, was hydrogen - which was a common contaminant of >helium and argon enrichment during the time period when he was promoting >his scheme. Furthermore, the engine only worked when the seals failed (my >interpretation to follow). > >Assuming Zero Point Energy (ZPE) and the Casimir Effect can work to alter >the properties of space itself at low temperatures and alter the "ideal" >gas laws after a mass/energy of a 3.4 eV photon is attracted to a bare >proton, and then removed from that "space", then such a "dump" of >free-energy in our 3-space will be "readjusted" by a corresponding loss in >volumetric heat or compreture in the spatial volume. This can be >doubly-beneficial when a Carnot engine (of the reciprocating variety) is >involved, because one can achieve not-only OU torque based on an initial >gas expansion - which is limited to perhaps 2.5 times the input energy, >which is not enough for self-power, but also if an enhanced cooling effect >follows (as has been reported in the literature) then torque can be derived >from the enhanced vacuum-cooling-effect following expansion. Should the >operating regime of the engine be tailored optimally to achieve maximum P*V >cooling and adiabatic effects be avoided, then a PUSH-PULL scenario is >possible, resulting in self-power from a heat engine that is still Carnot >limited but ZPE powered.. > >The "Inversion Temperature" can become an important factor in getting a >"Carnot Spread" which is wide enough so that an OU of only 2.5 will be >adequate to drive a heat engine, in reciprocating mode, such as sealed >Papp-type engine. Even then it is touchy. > >Note: Papp himself did not do this, at least not reliably. The process >demands that the gas fill be quite low the bottom of the cycle (perhaps >one-tenth bar), but that a high compression ratio (15-1) be in place, such >that even at TDC the internal pressure prior to the arc firing though the >gas, must only be 1-2 bar. This gives elbow-room for a massive temperature >and pressure swing on both half-strokes, which - in effect- will "power the >upstroke" as well as the downstroke in a sealed engine (in my dreams at >least) > >The little-know inversion temperature is " the 'normal' effect of cooling >when a gas expands -an then takes place below that temperature. Above that >temperature it heats under expansion." > >Note the oddity in this table for Helium, which may be a key > >Gas(or medium) Inversion Temp Deg K > >Space 0-3 >Helium 51 >Hydrogen 205 >Neon 242 >Nitrogen 621 >Argon 723 >Krypton 727 >Oxygen 893 >Xenon 1427 > >Zero Deg C = 272 Deg K >Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K > >Note that Papp used Krypton and Argon which are counter productive in large >ratios. > >If one wanted to tailor the Inversion temperature to match ambient, and >hopefully the ICE would operate at net-ambient, which is approx 300K then >one would probably use mostly hydrogen with some argon and helium (both >being putative Hy catalysts to boot). > >Of all the anecdotal tales and stories in the lore of OU, the Papp machine >- especially in the context of the huge (reportedly) lawsuit that Cal-Tech >and Feynman had to pay, stands-out as an interesting one, with many >loose-ends and a total embarrassment for the mainstream which was >covered-up in the press. > >Obviously Papp was blind as to what was happening on those occasions when >it did go OU, because it was counter-intuitive. Papp would never have >provided the necessary vacuum fill, nor have thought that plain old >hydrogen was the key - so whatever results he did achieve was blind luck >due to outgassing though his seals to get into the vacuum regime. And then >the effect did not last long - so the poor guy was in constant frustration >because he knew he had seen self-running on occasion, but could never get >it on-demand. > >I wish I could get my hands on that sealed-engine of his for a while, >however, and test this hypothesis.... > >Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon May 30 11:01:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4UI1Ato025987; Mon, 30 May 2005 11:01:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4UI17jI025955; Mon, 30 May 2005 11:01:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:01:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=NZGW0iwJrjbOJ5Zd9fnIkgycoyBlBApYhYCR3lFOoHqvKffmCrtnMOtAHpFvBHrX2z8NLv5LtfoeNsryI88b/PHWq0MCRWLF7uqmF++Sh+Hw7LNKjzH8vYwx6E0YwkGNXGLpBxjTvk4jZPGy2pV6ijdlp/g1NX1aMAGvg2lLJXU= ; Message-ID: <20050530180059.86310.qmail web60314.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:00:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Re: Alienist amungus - are we being fish-bowled? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <429A720C.6010605 bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends12 Status: RO X-Status: Gents, >From about 1990 through about 1997, I jumped headlong into the world of the UFO experience and UFO abductions. I ended up after a few years about where Terry indicated he had landed... pretty well writing off the possibility of physical "visitors". I was in a position for most of those years to do SEM and EDS work, as well as optical microscopy, on supposed implants, alien spooge left on abductees, and crash retrieval fragments. Nada. In every case, the objects turned out to be either identifiable as a whole, or identifiable by composition. Some of this melodrama is only now starting to go away on the internet, such as the ..guh...caugh... bismuth magnesium Roswell metal. Been about a year since I had to pull out my knitting needle and try to deflate the mythos of that one once again. I've learned to breathe deep and control my ire when a whole new phase of implant / artifact / "smoking gun" poo starts around again, courtesy of personalities such as Lier, Howe, Boylan, yadayada. The uncontrollable urge to yell "I WAS THE ONE WHO ANALYZED YOUR GOL DANGED NECK IMPLANT THINGY AND IT REALLY IS JUST A PIECE OF A GOL DANGED FURNITURE SCREW!" Oh. Was that out loud? In the end, the only evidence I found for the UFO experience was the deep and unique impact on the consciousness of the experiencers, and the fantastic levels of pure Jungian synchronicity. So overall, I've placed the UFO and alien abduction experiences into the ocean of the Human Collective Unconscious. Those aliens arose out of our own creation, and populate our virtual shared symbological network. My own experiences with analysis, experiencer interviews, and circulating among the "bigwigs" took me to this place, so I guess I feel differentiated from pathological skepticism. Hardware aliens in hardware saucers from hardware worlds. I weighed them in my balance and they were found wanting. But back to the fishbowl challenge. Well, here's my little contribution. If you were the keeper of a bowl o' sea monkeys whom you knew were a bit smarter than you had figgered they would be, when they came in the mail, one thing you might not want them to discover in their little bowl world would be any evidence that they were not your first pets in that bowl! I'd say the best place to look for evidence for the bowl o' sea monkeys theory is OOPARTS (out-of-place-artifacts) and archaeological enigmas. No, not the Baghdad Batteries, or the Great Pyramid, or Greek clockwork. Those bear testimony to human engineering skill and/or the notion of historical outliers. The one I have been puzzling over recently is firmly in the realm of anthropological history. In North America, a good number of the native tribes had some primordial stories about giants. Not the big smelly wildmen of the woods (Bigfoot), but actual giant tribes - giant humans. In almost all the Indian stories, the giants were dying out as the ancestors of the Indians made their homes in the land. Generally but not always, the giants were the enemies of the Indians remotest grandfathers, and their extinction was hastened by those conflicts. Now skip forward to the late 1700s. From across the frontier country later called Ohio, Western New York, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ontario, stories of giant sized (usually between seven and 9 foot) human-esque skeletal remains popped up as the plow broke open forest and meadow. Hundreds of accounts - some as late as the 1930s. (Several eight foot human skeletons were noted in the reports made at a dig from a CCC construction site off the coast of Georgia.) Now the prevailing notion among anthropologists who will even discuss the matter is that these were the "craze" of the era. The "Roswell" of an earlier time. The bones were just normal sized Indian bones, they say, but the mystique of Giants in the Earth New World biblical proof - which played a role in the birth of Mormonism, obviously - made 9 foot guys with weird shaped heads out of the actual Shawnee remains. And it may be so! Except that in a number of instances from the latter part of the "Giant craze era", 8 feet long or larger giant remains were taken off to some venerable institutions for study. Several accounts from West Virginia are cited in the 12th annual report to the Smithsonian of the American Ethnography committee which was in 1896 I believe. The said giant remains from Georgia were recorded by the credentialed archaeologists involved as having been delivered to the Smithsonian. Another group of big ones from a building excavation in Elrama PA in the late 1930s were supposedly dropped off at the University of Pennsylvania. The catch is that when inquiries are made to any of the institutions where the giant bones are (supposedly) cached, the requests are either ignored or records come up negative. A young post doc at Ohio state with whom one of my partners in this mess had corresponded, had done research on the Georgia case. Lo and behold, in the documentation he had used, no mention of abnormal human remains was found. Nor were any remains among the artifacts in storage for the case. Yet copies of the original report mention them repeatedly. Maybe not convincing on a onesy twosy basis, but it leaves a bad smell. Maybe all those accounts and measurements by town doctors or coroners or college museum curators were bogus, and filled with some mythos feeding fervor or delusion. There's a notion that something capable of revolutionizing the anthropological picture of the history of humanity was "scrubbed" along the way. But I may be wrong. The point though is that if we are really Sea Monkeys, we should search the bowels of our bowl thoroughly for those OOPARTS and Forteana that would whisper blaspemous hints that we are not the first batch / colony / crop here in this place. Makes you feel a little Lovecraftian, even on a sunny afternoon... N PS - With respect to the Food of the Gods. In his book Far Journeys, Robert Monroe claimed he was pulled into a dark alley on the astral plane and given a furtively delivered forbidden history of the real basis for life on Earth. The caviar-like resource for which humans are noted throughout the multi-verse? That which is harvested and sucked up by the gods like cosmic nose candy? Monroe called it "Loosh". High octane negentropic juice produced and released only by well ordered beings capable of perpetrating hate and mass violence on themselves... --- Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > even those who may have everything else that > technolgy has to offer, > > except ... soul? > > > Ah, the food of the gods? > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com