From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 3 21:29:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j644TXHp013320; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:29:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j644TUa9013292; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:29:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:29:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c58050$ef0ad250$2c027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: July 4 Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 23:29:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C58027.05A69410"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/60999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C58027.05A69410 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C58027.05A81AB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C58027.05A81AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIt seems fitting that the celebration of this holiday be mentioned = on Vortex.=20 The hymn" America the Beautiful" has words that portray the sense of = love for this nation "O beautiful for patriot dream That sees, beyond the years, Thine = alabaster cities gleam, undimmed by human tears". America is more than a place, a nation, it is a dream understood by all = the world. We have the challenge to keep that dream alive. Our Constitution gives one the right to burn our flag as a protest and = an act of free speech. I support their right of expression. I will not = burn my flag because it is a symbol of more than I can express. It = represents the dreams and hopes of all my family members that served our = nation and that never returned from war. I owe them that deep respect.=20 Flawed as it may be, this nation remains the hope of the world. To all that love the rule of law and freedom with liberty this nation = stands for.. I salute you on this 4th of July. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C58027.05A81AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
It seems fitting that the celebration of this holiday be mentioned = on=20 Vortex.
 
The hymn" America the Beautiful" has words that portray the sense = of love=20 for this nation
 
"O beautiful for patriot dream That sees, beyond the years, Thine = alabaster=20 cities gleam, undimmed by human tears".
 
America is more than a place, a nation, it is a dream understood by = all the=20 world. We have the challenge to keep that dream alive.
 
Our Constitution gives one the right to burn our flag as a protest = and an=20 act of free speech. I support their right of expression. I will not burn = my flag=20 because it is a symbol of more than I can express. It represents the = dreams and=20 hopes of all my family members that served our nation and that never = returned=20 from war. I owe them that deep respect.
 
Flawed as it may be, this nation remains the hope of the = world.
 
To all that love the rule of law and freedom with =  liberty this=20 nation stands for.. I salute you on this 4th of July.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C58027.05A81AB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C58027.05A69410 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000401c58050$ee6d59d0$2c027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C58027.05A69410-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 02:00:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j648xxGY013961; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 02:00:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j648xvKx013942; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 01:59:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 01:59:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Subject: Re: Comprehending MAHG and COP values Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:59:44 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4403b0$152mgug mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4403b0$152mgug mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:59:44 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j648xn8v013880 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to 's message of Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:10:10 -0400: Hi, [snip] >However, in Naudin's most current run (run #82) when I look at the chart titled "Power Input/Output Vs Time" it's not exactly clear to me how the OUTPUT POWER value is derived. Is this output power [snip] The fluid flow rate multiplied by the temperature difference between input and output and multiplied by the specific heat of water yields the output power. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 02:02:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6491tcA015138; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 02:02:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6491qHR015115; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 02:01:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 02:01:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c58076$f8cb0c80$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <000901c58050$ef0ad250$2c027841 xptower> Subject: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:01:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5807F.580A7750" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <_tt0DB.A.FsD.AsPyCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5807F.580A7750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RS Macaulay wrote:- <> <> The trouble with many Americans is they have this "dream" of how America = is. The American constitution is indeed a fine piece of work but the = reality of how America behaves is that it is a bully, imposing its view = of the world wherever it sees fit to protect mostly imagined threats to = the "American way of life". This might be news to you but, in most of = the world, Bush's America is not seen as the "hope of the world" instead = it is actually seen as probably the biggest threat to world stability = for a long time. Nick Palmer Brit, European, Citizen of the World. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5807F.580A7750 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
RS Macaulay wrote:-
 
<<America is more than a place, a nation, it is a dream = understood by=20 all the world. >>
 
<<Flawed as it may be, this nation remains the hope of the=20 world.>>
 
The trouble with many Americans is they = have this=20 "dream" of how America is. The American constitution is indeed a = fine piece=20 of work but the reality of how America behaves is that it is a bully, = imposing=20 its view of the world wherever it sees fit to protect mostly imagined = threats=20 to the "American way of life". This might be news to you but, in = most of=20 the world, Bush's America is not seen as the "hope of the world" = instead it=20 is actually seen as probably the biggest threat to world stability for a = long=20 time.
 
Nick Palmer
 
Brit, European, Citizen of the=20 World.
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5807F.580A7750-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 02:37:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j649bAAE000605; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 02:37:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j649b9pS000582; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 02:37:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 02:37:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: TEC data Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:36:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortex, I have some data for the TEC project. After a number of years of project mismanagement and the sacking of a supervisor, I have a new supervisory team who told me I was trying to do too much at once. Terrible problems were encountered with power electronics and so forth in the quest for a device that was over-unity. The new team told me to break the project up and so I came up with the following scalable experiments, each of which proves the thesis, however the latter experiments are obviously more gratifying: 1) Independent flux concept. 2) Cooling of an isolated reservoir. 3) Excess power generation. On 1) If you read the papers is the link below (go to the thermo-electric link), specifically 'ERA2005', 'ERA2004' and appendicii of the first two papers you will see what we mean by the independent flux concept. We have two terms in an energy equation, one is just the field energy the other is dipole work. The latter term is limitless and represents energy external to the electrical system entering it. **This term will be the heat conversion to electricity.** The data shown in the slides for ERA2005 13, 14 and 15 show the term acting as a stiff voltage source so the decay rate is not affected. When there is no ferrofluid in the core, the flux is just dependent, energy is constant and hence loading affects the decay rate. **So there is no doubt about it the effect occurs.** We shall do more experiments and present this more formally with full kit and materials. Discussion with supervisors and others say some might find this a little subtle and we should wait until the second experiment before submitting to mainstream journals (avoid doing a P+F and condemn it to crankdom! Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence.) On 2) We are beginning to design for this. We will aim for unequivocal cooling not some talking shop statistical analysis. On 3) A comparative easy step on from 2. Small amounts of power from heat being converted to electricity is already occurring in (1) but not enough to break even though. The other stuff on the website (propulsion and signalling) I am thinking about and will put material hopefully by the end of year. I think the third project is practically easier than the second but I am beginning to have good theoretical ideas for a mechanism based on real phenomena (not ZPE). I always work on the basis that, if a phenomenon exists follow the consequences no matter how weird. I won't discuss these projects until I have composed my thoughts into some coherent paper. They need more work. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... Excuse me if I don't stick around, I respect your forum but find it a little too 'nerd-macho' sometimes (especially vortex) and I don't suffer the sort. Regards, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 05:41:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64Cethl026189; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 05:41:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64CepWA026144; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 05:40:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 05:40:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c58096$4f607b60$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <000901c58050$ef0ad250$2c027841 xptower> <001201c58076$f8cb0c80$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:45:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C58074.C64E2960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C58074.C64E2960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who thinks of freedom and liberty as a threat? Those who do should be = threatened by sombody. Slavery still exists in this world based on = nationality, religion, and gender. We dealt with our slave problem = nealy 150 yrs ago, but slavery still thrives in this world. The slave = owners and traders hate us and fear us. They apparently have little to = fear from you. Jeff=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Palmer=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 5:01 AM Subject: OT Re: July 4 RS Macaulay wrote:- <> <> The trouble with many Americans is they have this "dream" of how = America is. The American constitution is indeed a fine piece of work but = the reality of how America behaves is that it is a bully, imposing its = view of the world wherever it sees fit to protect mostly imagined = threats to the "American way of life". This might be news to you but, in = most of the world, Bush's America is not seen as the "hope of the world" = instead it is actually seen as probably the biggest threat to world = stability for a long time. Nick Palmer Brit, European, Citizen of the World. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C58074.C64E2960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who thinks of freedom and liberty as a=20 threat?  Those who do should be threatened by sombody. Slavery = still exists=20 in this world based on nationality, religion, and gender.  We dealt = with=20 our slave problem nealy 150 yrs ago, but slavery still thrives in this=20 world.  The slave owners and traders hate us and fear us.  = They=20 apparently have little to fear from you.
 
Jeff 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nick=20 Palmer
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 = 5:01 AM
Subject: OT Re: July 4

RS Macaulay wrote:-
 
<<America is more than a place, a nation, it is a dream = understood=20 by all the world. >>
 
<<Flawed as it may be, this nation remains the hope of the=20 world.>>
 
The trouble with many Americans is = they have this=20 "dream" of how America is. The American constitution is indeed a = fine=20 piece of work but the reality of how America behaves is that it is a = bully,=20 imposing its view of the world wherever it sees fit to protect mostly = imagined=20 threats to the "American way of life". This might be news to you = but, in=20 most of the world, Bush's America is not seen as the "hope of the = world"=20 instead it is actually seen as probably the biggest threat to world = stability=20 for a long time.
 
Nick Palmer
 
Brit, European, Citizen of the=20 World.
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C58074.C64E2960-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 06:31:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64DULwT020126; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 06:30:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64DUJhS020083; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 06:30:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 06:30:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.35] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Subject: RE: TEC data Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 06:29:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jul 2005 13:29:55.0580 (UTC) FILETIME=[775D8BC0:01C5809C] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Remi, Congratulations! Your work is both brilliant and beautiful. Cheers, Mark >From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: TEC data >Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:36:57 +0100 > >Dear Vortex, >I have some data for the TEC project. After a number of years of project >mismanagement and the sacking of a supervisor, I have a new supervisory >team >who told me I was trying to do too much at once. Terrible problems were >encountered with power electronics and so forth in the quest for a device >that was over-unity. The new team told me to break the project up and so I >came up with the following scalable experiments, each of which proves the >thesis, however the latter experiments are obviously more gratifying: > >1) Independent flux concept. >2) Cooling of an isolated reservoir. >3) Excess power generation. > >On 1) >If you read the papers is the link below (go to the thermo-electric link), >specifically 'ERA2005', 'ERA2004' and appendicii of the first two papers >you >will see what we mean by the independent flux concept. We have two terms in >an energy equation, one is just the field energy the other is dipole work. >The latter term is limitless and represents energy external to the >electrical system entering it. **This term will be the heat conversion to >electricity.** > >The data shown in the slides for ERA2005 13, 14 and 15 show the term acting >as a stiff voltage source so the decay rate is not affected. When there is >no ferrofluid in the core, the flux is just dependent, energy is constant >and hence loading affects the decay rate. > >**So there is no doubt about it the effect occurs.** > >We shall do more experiments and present this more formally with full kit >and materials. Discussion with supervisors and others say some might find >this a little subtle and we should wait until the second experiment before >submitting to mainstream journals (avoid doing a P+F and condemn it to >crankdom! Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence.) > >On 2) >We are beginning to design for this. We will aim for unequivocal cooling >not >some talking shop statistical analysis. > >On 3) >A comparative easy step on from 2. Small amounts of power from heat being >converted to electricity is already occurring in (1) but not enough to >break >even though. > > >The other stuff on the website (propulsion and signalling) I am thinking >about and will put material hopefully by the end of year. I think the third >project is practically easier than the second but I am beginning to have >good theoretical ideas for a mechanism based on real phenomena (not ZPE). I >always work on the basis that, if a phenomenon exists follow the >consequences no matter how weird. I won't discuss these projects until I >have composed my thoughts into some coherent paper. They need more work. >....................................... >Website >http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 >....................................... > >Excuse me if I don't stick around, I respect your forum but find it a >little >too 'nerd-macho' sometimes (especially vortex) and I don't suffer the sort. >Regards, >Remi. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 06:55:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64Dt0A6032515; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 06:55:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64DssqK032457; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 06:54:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 06:54:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: TEC data Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:54:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Mark, I'm trying as best I can to stick to principles in a complicated, contradictory world... Most of the problems seem to be man-made and ideology based. Science seems simple, people are perplexing. Remi. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Goldes Sent: 04 July 2005 14:30 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Subject: RE: TEC data Hi Remi, Congratulations! Your work is both brilliant and beautiful. Cheers, Mark >From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: TEC data >Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:36:57 +0100 > >Dear Vortex, >I have some data for the TEC project. After a number of years of project >mismanagement and the sacking of a supervisor, I have a new supervisory >team >who told me I was trying to do too much at once. Terrible problems were >encountered with power electronics and so forth in the quest for a device >that was over-unity. The new team told me to break the project up and so I >came up with the following scalable experiments, each of which proves the >thesis, however the latter experiments are obviously more gratifying: > >1) Independent flux concept. >2) Cooling of an isolated reservoir. >3) Excess power generation. > >On 1) >If you read the papers is the link below (go to the thermo-electric link), >specifically 'ERA2005', 'ERA2004' and appendicii of the first two papers >you >will see what we mean by the independent flux concept. We have two terms in >an energy equation, one is just the field energy the other is dipole work. >The latter term is limitless and represents energy external to the >electrical system entering it. **This term will be the heat conversion to >electricity.** > >The data shown in the slides for ERA2005 13, 14 and 15 show the term acting >as a stiff voltage source so the decay rate is not affected. When there is >no ferrofluid in the core, the flux is just dependent, energy is constant >and hence loading affects the decay rate. > >**So there is no doubt about it the effect occurs.** > >We shall do more experiments and present this more formally with full kit >and materials. Discussion with supervisors and others say some might find >this a little subtle and we should wait until the second experiment before >submitting to mainstream journals (avoid doing a P+F and condemn it to >crankdom! Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence.) > >On 2) >We are beginning to design for this. We will aim for unequivocal cooling >not >some talking shop statistical analysis. > >On 3) >A comparative easy step on from 2. Small amounts of power from heat being >converted to electricity is already occurring in (1) but not enough to >break >even though. > > >The other stuff on the website (propulsion and signalling) I am thinking >about and will put material hopefully by the end of year. I think the third >project is practically easier than the second but I am beginning to have >good theoretical ideas for a mechanism based on real phenomena (not ZPE). I >always work on the basis that, if a phenomenon exists follow the >consequences no matter how weird. I won't discuss these projects until I >have composed my thoughts into some coherent paper. They need more work. >....................................... >Website >http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 >....................................... > >Excuse me if I don't stick around, I respect your forum but find it a >little >too 'nerd-macho' sometimes (especially vortex) and I don't suffer the sort. >Regards, >Remi. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 07:13:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64ECorl009421; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 07:12:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64ECmmo009391; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 07:12:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 07:12:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.41.171] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:12:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050704141235.XTXR6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Nick Palmer" > The trouble with many Americans is they have this "dream" of how America is. Then you should have kept your colonies in line. It's all your fault. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 08:59:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64FxAMX007233; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:59:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64Fx7gH007178; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:59:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:59:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <87658dce-fcc8-4b02-be9b-73a3c8d01340> Message-ID: <004901c580b1$414477a0$d25bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000901c58050$ef0ad250$2c027841 xptower> <001201c58076$f8cb0c80$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:57:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Nick Palmer Subject: OT Re: July 4 RS Macaulay wrote:- <> <> The trouble with many Americans is they have this "dream" of how America is. The American constitution is indeed a fine piece of work but the reality of how America behaves is that it is a bully, imposing its view of the world wherever it sees fit to protect mostly imagined threats to the "American way of life". This might be news to you but, in most of the world, Bush's America is not seen as the "hope of the world" instead it is actually seen as probably the biggest threat to world stability for a long time. Nick Palmer Brit, European, Citizen of the World. ---------------------------------------------- Nick's detached view should include a more complete view of history, including Britain, Europe, and the rest of the world. On my many visits to Britain I have felt at home, soothed by the civility which overlays the very complex reality that one does not forge a global empire by being nice guys all the time. There was a time when Britain stood astride the world and was the target of mixed awe and hatred. And it was the 'madness of King George against which the US colonies revolted. One of the problems which the US has on the world stage is that we have no instinct for Empire, the mandate to conquer, control, and exploit which Britain and the major European powers all did. The ancient tradition that the eldest male inherits all the parent's wealth may have some role in this, leaving the younger males with no choice but to find fortune in the colonies at the expense of the 'natives'. Our news is full of the daily body count in Iraq, fretting over excesses of force, collateral damage, etc. In other times such was merely the price of Empire, glorified in the literature of the European nations, including Britain, by Kipling and others. People emigrated here to escape the millennia of toxic history of Europe, for a chance to start anew. Yes, it was done at the cost of the destruction of the Native American civilizations, in which Britain, France, Spain, and Portugal all participated. That said, English Common Law, beginning with the Magna Carta and perhaps finding its finest flowering in the US Constitution is a gift to mankind which compensates for the excesses which carried these ideas forward. It must be said also that Ghandi's tactics leading to Britain's withdrawal from India would not have worked against any other imperial power, tempered as it had become with a sense of fair play. The 20th century was dominated by the emergence of the US as a world power, and the 21st may be dominated by China's re-emergence as a center of world power. Regardless of the future, it can be fairly said that July 4, 1776 was a pivotal date in world history, from which emerged a nation based on constitutional rule of law. Since then, every nation with any claim to legitimacy has a constitutional foundation, whether observed in practice or not. And as a footnote, it must be acknowledged that the US constitution in turn took many concepts of government from the Iroquois Nations constitution, which was formed centuries before the US. This was formally acknowledged by an act of Congress a few decades ago. It was not the Iroquois alone, British Common Law and Masonic traditions also played a part. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 09:06:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64G6JD3012829; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:06:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64G6GHH012782; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:06:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:06:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050704160557.61600.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: OT July 4 To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <004901c580b1$414477a0$d25bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well said, Mike... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 09:45:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64Gj2GY005821; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:45:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64Gj0Rv005809; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:45:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:45:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qL+Ic40T1MFDLWZgpAdTKOQPxW8gEVnjkQ3Z8R84rSGBEsfLCig1Awzd042sYeSZD7GNX/+75Sp+RD4/h+rP7oyla9gBY8XfsHIXBNK4carUU+o2kZoypLgSLNZSMEOZNQW7KZFTkdmBAB9G9ovbNVNLfwgnC+ABSQ5jQWT1MpM= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:44:47 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 In-Reply-To: <001201c58076$f8cb0c80$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <000901c58050$ef0ad250$2c027841 xptower> <001201c58076$f8cb0c80$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j64Giq7k005580 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: bushs america is not america. period. dont make that mistake again. the bush admin is a cancer on the body of our country, and in desperate need of incision. On 7/4/05, Nick Palmer wrote: > > RS Macaulay wrote:- > > < the world. >> > > <> > > The trouble with many Americans is they have this "dream" of how America is. > The American constitution is indeed a fine piece of work but the reality of > how America behaves is that it is a bully, imposing its view of the world > wherever it sees fit to protect mostly imagined threats to the "American way > of life". This might be news to you but, in most of the world, Bush's > America is not seen as the "hope of the world" instead it is actually seen > as probably the biggest threat to world stability for a long time. > > Nick Palmer > > Brit, European, Citizen of the World. -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 11:34:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64IXmbj013271; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:33:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64IXk7Y013233; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:33:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:33:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c580c6$db5ef300$be017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20050704160557.61600.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: OT July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:33:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, True of Mike's writing... well said, insightful and informative. Makes me appreciate the company we keep here in Vortex. What a great group.!! Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:05 AM Subject: Re: OT July 4 > Well said, Mike... > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 12:30:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64JTKFc017441; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:29:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64JTHO6017404; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:29:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:29:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.13.234] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:29:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050704192901.FQOD11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8nkjnC.A.zPE.N4YyCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: leaking pen > > bushs america is not america. You are absolutely correct. It is not clear that it is money which turns the earth, presently lubricated by oil? Does everyone here really believe that it matters which man holds the office of the presidency? The world agenda is set by those in power. Neither Bog nor chaos plays any role in what happens. It is all projected, planned and executed according to the Agenda. You wanna blame someone, blame the Knights Templar. If you know why, then you likely know the truth. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 14:06:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64L5lsT007060; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:05:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64L45JW005858; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:04:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:04:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <669b168b-70d5-469a-9bc6-624a0927d17e> Message-ID: <008201c580db$d59ff3f0$d25bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050704192901.FQOD11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 17:03:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 > > From: leaking pen > > > > bushs america is not america. > > You are absolutely correct. It is not clear that it is money which turns the earth, presently lubricated by oil? Does everyone here really believe that it matters which man holds the office of the presidency? The world agenda is set by those in power. Neither Bog nor chaos plays any role in what happens. It is all projected, planned and executed according to the Agenda. > > You wanna blame someone, blame the Knights Templar. If you know why, then you likely know the truth. ------------------------- Not *that* again! No doubt people conspire, it is endemic in *us* vs *them*. Pattern recognition is fundamental to human perception and survival, but it spills over into a perception of patterns where there are none, like voices in the surf or the secret society du jur. Human conspiracies are frail against the tide of events -- as the saying goes, if you want to make the gods laugh, tell them your plans. Blame is the game, a suicidal one at that in the long run. We have met the enemy and he is *us*. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 15:03:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64M08uR005730; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:03:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64LZ67M024887; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:35:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:35:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.13.234] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 17:34:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" > ------------------------- > Not *that* again! No doubt people conspire, it is endemic in *us* vs *them*. Look to the origins of money, banking, and control. Otherwise, considering your well-reasoned responses, you would do well to avoid even listening to me. Besides, I was addressing the dripping feather. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 15:57:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j64Mv1Ks001217; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:57:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j64MuxUK001191; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:56:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:56:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c580eb$a7c36ec0$f4027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20050704192901.FQOD11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 17:56:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I will pose a question to Terry. What do the small, seemingly obscure sentences in Judges 8: 1-2 seem to you ? ( a member of the tribe of Ephraim speaking to Gideon, a member of the tribe of Manasseh ). " Why have you treated us like this? Why didn't you call us when you went to fight Midian?" But he answered them, " What have I ( Gideon) accomplished compared to you? Aren't the gleaning of Ehpraim's grapes better than the full grape harvest of Abiezer"? ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 2:29 PM Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 >> From: leaking pen >> >> bushs america is not america. > > You are absolutely correct. It is not clear that it is money which turns > the earth, presently lubricated by oil? Does everyone here really believe > that it matters which man holds the office of the presidency? The world > agenda is set by those in power. Neither Bog nor chaos plays any role in > what happens. It is all projected, planned and executed according to the > Agenda. > > You wanna blame someone, blame the Knights Templar. If you know why, then > you likely know the truth. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 18:30:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j651UHLx012504; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:30:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j651UEUl012453; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:30:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:30:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.165.55] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:29:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050705012958.MEGA25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "RC Macaulay" > I will pose a question to Terry. > " Why have you treated us like this? We expected more of you. I pose a question to the "Citizens of Europe": when you called, is there one of you who does not have the bodies of the citizens of the United States of America fertilizing your soil? Even Ratzinger has named Europe his next Crusade. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 18:42:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j651fqqq022062; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:41:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j651foHq022028; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:41:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:41:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.165.55] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:41:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050705014137.MFZO25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8zucpD.A.HYF.dVeyCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > From: "Mike Carrell" > > > ------------------------- > > Not *that* again! No doubt people conspire, it is endemic in *us* vs *them*. > > Look to the origins of I am sorry for my ranting; however, I would advise anyone to avoid attacking me or my country on this day. That said . . . Who is the most powerful person in the world today? Everyone gets one guess. . . and I'll even give a hint: LIBOR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 19:22:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j652JLGL012364; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:19:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j652JHD9012293; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:19:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:19:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:18:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 > > From: "Mike Carrell" > > > ------------------------- > > Not *that* again! No doubt people conspire, it is endemic in *us* vs *them*. > > Look to the origins of money, banking, and control. Otherwise, considering your well-reasoned responses, you would do well to avoid even listening to me. > > Besides, I was addressing the dripping feather. -------------------------------------- Curious: what is the allusion to the "dripping feather"? I'm well out of the loop on that one. As for the Templars, there are many legends woven about them, some interesting parts of that story can be found in "The Hiram Key", a history of Freemasonry which traces roots of its elements back to ancient Egypt and includes the Templars. An argument is made that the image on the Shroud of Turin is that of Jacques DeMolay, Grand Master of the Templars, [tortured by the Inquisition before a show trial] when they were pulled down by the conspiracy of Philip the Poor of France and the Pope [after a pogrom when Jews were chased out of France and their wealth confiscated] Both died a month after DeMolay cursed them as he was burned at the stake. As for the "origins" of money. banking and control, that started in the Mediterranean basin when the Phoenicians invented money, and probably before that in China when they invented paper money. There is nothing new at all about any of this, one group rises and another falls as they are swept by the tides of events well beyond their control In the early 1400s China was *the* great power and an immense fleet was built and launched to map the world and bring it under the Chinese tribute system. The world was mapped, and America discovered in 1421. Philip the Navigator of Portugal and Columbus had seen copies of the Chinese maps. When the great fleets returned to China, the emperor had been deposed, the Mandarin bureaucrats were in control and the records of the great exploration almost tonally destroyed. Only now is China re-emerging as a great power. Sic transit gloria mundi. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 19:42:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j652gbNK022499; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:42:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j652gZbC022472; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:42:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:42:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=hsFiFlKaiOYMz3roWWW2U24StBgteDH4D06b3rkhqhIvaeUohWexIgtSCjI4Psn3WYS0BR33mvQvDfyH6vpYTRxju5+0DJwu4OsMgl1f4YW1R6NwxqTIHgW9607n0xjR+y8YL0WiBzQh8tNmRFt+NU+wyF71TbDB3jZUwLdON7s= ; Message-ID: <20050705024220.45914.qmail web41008.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:42:20 -0700 (PDT) From: not used account Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050704192901.FQOD11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Perfect response Terry, IMO. Happy 4th !! Had a great fireworks show here... Joe a.k.a "not uses account" > > You are absolutely correct. It is not clear that it > is money which turns the earth, presently lubricated > by oil? Does everyone here really believe that it > matters which man holds the office of the > presidency? The world agenda is set by those in > power. Neither Bog nor chaos plays any role in what > happens. It is all projected, planned and executed > according to the Agenda. > > You wanna blame someone, blame the Knights Templar. > If you know why, then you likely know the truth. > > > ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 4 20:04:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6533jK1002085; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:03:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6533grR002064; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:03:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:03:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.165.55] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:03:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050705030330.MUUS25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <1hITnC.A.Kg.OifyCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" > Curious: what is the allusion to the "dripping feather"? I'm well out of the > loop on that one. Only because you're not following the thread. > As for the Templars, there are many legends woven about them, some > interesting parts of that story can be found in "The Hiram Key", a history > of Freemasonry which traces roots of its elements back to ancient Egypt and > includes the Templars. Geeze, I'm not talking about Joachim and Boaz. > An argument is made that the image on the Shroud of > Turin is that of Jacques DeMolay, Grand Master of the Templars, [tortured by > the Inquisition before a show trial] when they were pulled down by the > conspiracy of Philip the Poor of France and the Pope [after a pogrom when > Jews were chased out of France and their wealth confiscated] Both died a > month after DeMolay cursed them as he was burned at the stake. Pope Clement (V) withing a month, Philip le Bel (IV) took another seven. > As for the "origins" of money. banking and control, that started in the > Mediterranean basin when the Phoenicians invented money, and probably before > that in China when they invented paper money. There is nothing new at all > about any of this, one group rises and another falls as they are swept by > the tides of events well beyond their control Maybe but not to the point of issuing credit. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 08:12:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65FBkFw002099; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:11:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65FBZOK001899; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:11:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:11:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:11:17 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Alive! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lists didn't get restored after eskimo account restart. They say their normal staff was out this weekend. (I just bought 5 years of service, plus a couple of gigabytes.) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 09:33:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65GWVhE031569; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:32:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65GWRKP031495; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:32:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:32:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CAB4E0.4010003 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:27:12 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 References: <000901c58050$ef0ad250$2c027841 xptower> <001201c58076$f8cb0c80$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >bushs america is not america. period. dont make that mistake again. > the bush admin is a cancer on the body of our country, and in >desperate need of incision. > > Not that simple. Surgery -- "incision" -- only works if the tumor hasn't metastasized. Radiation treatment applied to an entire country could have unfortunate fallout. Using drugs to work on the problem is only likely to get you labeled a "drug user", and in this country you go to jail for that. More seriously, the United States is currently a house divided, and while a fair fraction of the people in this country might agree with your sentiments, a roughly equal fraction would disagree strongly and even find them offensive. Two elections in a row, roughly half the people who voted expressed a preference for George Bush. The fact that so many who did not prefer him view him so negatively is a symptom of the wildly differing ways Americans are now looking at the world. It's been a long time since the country was last so polarized. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 10:03:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65H3Dv6023261; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:03:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65H36H5023161; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:03:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:03:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CABC13.9040407 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:57:55 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (OT)Liberals and conservatives References: <20050628182041.93036.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >well, if someone links it, ill take it. btw, since the term liberal >means desiring change, then proggressive and liberal mean the same >thing, dont they? > For a good time, try reading the European press, and see what they have to say about "liberals". (The identical word exists in French, for instance, as well as British English.) Tony Blair is a "liberal" and Jaque Chirac is not; neither is Villepin. Thatcher certainly was, however! The French socialists were afraid the "liberalism" of Margerat Thatcher would be imported into France if the constitution passed, which is one reason it didn't. "Liberal" in the U.S. generally has meant liberal with government handouts (very roughly speaking!) -- i.e., in favor of increasing welfare-like things (and restrictions on corporations). "Liberal" in Europe typically seems to mean "liberal in treatment of corporations" -- i.e., reducing labor laws (thus removing restrictions on corporations). In either case, "liberal" doesn't really mean "desiring change" -- if it did, then the Bush administration would be very liberal indeed, because there are lots of things they want to change. Indeed, in the current state of things in the U.S., I'd argue that "liberal" is used to mean "wanting to keep the status quo" while "conservative" is used to mean "wanting to change things to favor business and a strong military" ... so really, so-called "liberals" are actually conservatives, and so-called "conservatives" are actually progressives (or perhaps "radicals" or even "reactionaries" but certainly not conservatives, in the literal sense of the word). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 10:14:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65HDMIO030720; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:13:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65HDCH5030596; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:13:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:13:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CABE6B.3040106 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:07:55 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 References: <20050704192901.FQOD11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050704192901.FQOD11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7pPTjD.A.8dH.n-ryCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: leaking pen >> >>bushs america is not america. >> >> > >You are absolutely correct. It is not clear that it is money which turns the earth, presently lubricated by oil? Does everyone here really believe that it matters which man holds the office of the presidency? The world agenda is set by those in power. Neither Bog nor chaos plays any role in what happens. It is all projected, planned and executed according to the Agenda. > >You wanna blame someone, blame the Knights Templar. > I thought the Knights Templar were established to guard the royal family after Jesus (the rightful king) had been spirited out of Jerusalem and hidden in the south of France following his resurrection. They did a good job, too, up until the Mongols wiped them out. Just think, if Genghis Kahn hadn't died at a strategic moment, thus causing the Mongol Hordes to return home in order to fight over the succession, the Middle Ages might have turned into the Mongol Ages instead. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 10:40:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65HVOc3011717; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:39:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65HKM8Z003322; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:20:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:20:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CAC021.4000903 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:15:13 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >In the early 1400s China was *the* great power and an immense fleet was >built and launched to map the world and bring it under the Chinese tribute >system. The world was mapped, and America discovered in 1421. Philip the >Navigator of Portugal and Columbus had seen copies of the Chinese maps. > Really? Columbus had seen Chinese maps showing America? Then why was he so confused about the size of the world and so totally ignorant of the possibility that there might be another continent lurking between Europe and China? Surely he must have realized the Chinese had not encountered Europe by sailing east -- people in Europe would have noticed the arrival of the Chinese fleet, and they manifestly had not. So a big bunch of land located far, far off the Chinese coast could only have been another continent. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 10:51:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65HpP4j025542; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:51:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65HpIJs025483; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:51:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:51:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:51:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050705175103.PYPW6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > I thought the Knights Templar were established to guard the royal family > after Jesus (the rightful king) had been spirited out of Jerusalem and > hidden in the south of France following his resurrection. Uuuhh, no. If you're really interested, here is a fairly good web page: http://www.templiers.org/templiers-eng.html I work in a building that was once the operations center for Wachovia bank. The helicopter pad "target" on the roof is a lovely rendition of the Templar cross. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 11:00:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65HxO06030279; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:59:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65HwweA030067; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:58:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:58:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050705135605.04440320 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:58:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Paper by T. A. and S. Chubb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I uploaded a seminal theory paper by Talbot and Scott Chubb: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChubbTAcoldfusion.pdf Talbot said it was seminal, anyway. He says looking back on it, he is impressed by his own work. Honestly, I have no clue what it is about, but it was a heck of a job to prepare, so you theory-mongers out there better read it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 11:27:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65IQeQE018178; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:26:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65IQcVt018170; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:26:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:26:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=amOYfmTkn35SLUWw8vOPC9jz1TSdoYWwsXiNSEt1tx5WioH1RKnYQx3h2BNgGoqAsxbprxh5i5YJ5VA9bL5s+++GgGcAPEogeFzJkIbgBDn3sWahB54Q3qlW6p1wAHW1gAqSiNM5CgKacgdxH1Dq1OS5ZYSNFY8OD+DXqxqEG94= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:26:22 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 In-Reply-To: <42CAB4E0.4010003 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <000901c58050$ef0ad250$2c027841 xptower> <001201c58076$f8cb0c80$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> <42CAB4E0.4010003 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j65IQRAP018003 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: stephen, i work with mostly conservatives. those that would listen, when having everything listed out, piece by piece, that the bush admin did, were disgusted. i personnally got 10 people who had NEVER voted dem to vote dem in 2004, and another 5 to withold a vote for bush. we arent as divided as the talking heads and propoganda machines would make you think. On 7/5/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > leaking pen wrote: > > >bushs america is not america. period. dont make that mistake again. > > the bush admin is a cancer on the body of our country, and in > >desperate need of incision. > > > > > Not that simple. > > Surgery -- "incision" -- only works if the tumor hasn't metastasized. > > Radiation treatment applied to an entire country could have unfortunate > fallout. > > Using drugs to work on the problem is only likely to get you labeled a > "drug user", and in this country you go to jail for that. > > More seriously, the United States is currently a house divided, and > while a fair fraction of the people in this country might agree with > your sentiments, a roughly equal fraction would disagree strongly and > even find them offensive. Two elections in a row, roughly half the > people who voted expressed a preference for George Bush. The fact that > so many who did not prefer him view him so negatively is a symptom of > the wildly differing ways Americans are now looking at the world. It's > been a long time since the country was last so polarized. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 11:30:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65ITPK0020249; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:29:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65ITF5Y020110; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:29:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:29:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:28:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050705182850.QXLC6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >In the early 1400s China was *the* great power and an immense fleet was > >built and launched to map the world and bring it under the Chinese tribute > >system. The world was mapped, and America discovered in 1421. Philip the > >Navigator of Portugal and Columbus had seen copies of the Chinese maps. > > > > Really? Columbus had seen Chinese maps showing America? Then why was > he so confused about the size of the world and so totally ignorant of > the possibility that there might be another continent lurking between > Europe and China? http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/24/features/chinam.php Can you imagine America being named after Zheng He? ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 11:32:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65IUp40021542; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:30:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65IUjWk021463; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:30:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:30:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oSWOwqqRd48qWiy68/EW59EHQRqX7hMtb436M5FREubrWpZXbT9k4MKfyLfZ8YArh3hoyc301kaVoURxEuozcmgmNP2gVe9YFHtpOgpRyVea22f4JpKNkHoI7BLJWwRL2yAUIAEAXF4R9Xlhwp89udse8AFFiUAC6P9T3P1U9Zo= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:30:21 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (OT)Liberals and conservatives In-Reply-To: <42CABC13.9040407 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050628182041.93036.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <42CABC13.9040407 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j65IUSeB021137 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ahh, but theres the rub. the bush admin IS liberal. On 7/5/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > leaking pen wrote: > > >well, if someone links it, ill take it. btw, since the term liberal > >means desiring change, then proggressive and liberal mean the same > >thing, dont they? > > > For a good time, try reading the European press, and see what they have > to say about "liberals". (The identical word exists in French, for > instance, as well as British English.) > > Tony Blair is a "liberal" and Jaque Chirac is not; neither is Villepin. > Thatcher certainly was, however! The French socialists were afraid the > "liberalism" of Margerat Thatcher would be imported into France if the > constitution passed, which is one reason it didn't. > > "Liberal" in the U.S. generally has meant liberal with government > handouts (very roughly speaking!) -- i.e., in favor of increasing > welfare-like things (and restrictions on corporations). > > "Liberal" in Europe typically seems to mean "liberal in treatment of > corporations" -- i.e., reducing labor laws (thus removing restrictions > on corporations). > > In either case, "liberal" doesn't really mean "desiring change" -- if it > did, then the Bush administration would be very liberal indeed, because > there are lots of things they want to change. Indeed, in the current > state of things in the U.S., I'd argue that "liberal" is used to mean > "wanting to keep the status quo" while "conservative" is used to mean > "wanting to change things to favor business and a strong military" ... > so really, so-called "liberals" are actually conservatives, and > so-called "conservatives" are actually progressives (or perhaps > "radicals" or even "reactionaries" but certainly not conservatives, in > the literal sense of the word). > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 11:32:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65IVxbq022465; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:32:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65IVre0022371; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:31:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:31:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <62bdc3b4-3554-43c5-a94c-82c2060234e5> Message-ID: <005101c5818f$bc050840$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CAC021.4000903@pobox.com> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:31:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 (China) > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >In the early 1400s China was *the* great power and an immense fleet was > >built and launched to map the world and bring it under the Chinese tribute > >system. The world was mapped, and America discovered in 1421. Philip the > >Navigator of Portugal and Columbus had seen copies of the Chinese maps. > > > > Really? Columbus had seen Chinese maps showing America? Then why was > he so confused about the size of the world and so totally ignorant of > the possibility that there might be another continent lurking between > Europe and China? > > Surely he must have realized the Chinese had not encountered Europe by > sailing east -- people in Europe would have noticed the arrival of the > Chinese fleet, and they manifestly had not. So a big bunch of land > located far, far off the Chinese coast could only have been another > continent. Take a look at the 1421 website. There is much more to this story. At the time, the Chinese dominated trade in the Indian ocean and reached into the Arab states, and around the horn or Africa. Much of that Europe called 'civilization' filtered in by the silk road and other routes for centuries, for China was centuries to millennia advanced beyond Europe. The Chinese world maps were established well before Columbus' voyage. Copies of the maps or derivatives were around in the 1500's showing details of Antarctica and the coastlines of eastern South America, well beyond the reach of the voyages of Columbus or Philip the Navigator. What is most remarkable is that the Chinese maps, and their derivatives, show accurate longitude centuries before the Harrison chronometers enabled the determination of longitude at sea. Another method of determining longitude for *mapping purposes* is based on observation of the eclipses of the moon, or transits of the moons of Jupiter. Contrary to popular legend, Galileo was not the first to observe the moons of Jupiter. The Chinese did so centuries earlier. It has been recently confirmed that a good human eye under ideal seeing conditions can perceive Jupiter as a disc and can perceive the moons under right conditions -- again, dig down into the 1421 website for the contemporary story. Galileo's telescope wasn't all that good, either. These methods don't help to know where you are while at sea, but with care you can take data that will enable you to know where you were when you get back home. As for Columbus, I might be a bit off, since I'm following the other story. He may have seen the maps, or copies, but did not have the navigational skill of the Chinese fleet decades earlier. The Chinese apparently did not get to Europe by sailing across the Atlantic, but they got to Antarctica and left traces of their presence up and down both coasts of the Americas. The 1421 story is a whole new look. Before concluding what could or could not be, it is worthwhile to read the book and the website and see the accumulation of evidence. It is a most remarkable story. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 11:36:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65IUUjH021276; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:35:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65I9Pjp005086; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:09:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:09:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <004201c5818c$8ead6520$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050705030330.MUUS25470.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:08:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote: I wrote: > > As for the "origins" of money. banking and control, that started in the > > Mediterranean basin when the Phoenicians invented money, and probably before > > that in China when they invented paper money. There is nothing new at all > > about any of this, one group rises and another falls as they are swept by > > the tides of events well beyond their control > > Maybe but not to the point of issuing credit. If Terry is referring to monetary credit, that arose with money itself and probably existed in another form in barter societies. Credit is basic to commerce in any form; a promise to give value in the future in exchange for help in the present. There is no system of commerce, religion, or government which has not been corrupted in the past, is not corrupted in the present, or will not be corrupted in the future. All human mutual dependance is based on exchange, and the value of the exchange is continuously negotiated. Eternal vigilence is the price of liberty and mutual trust is the basis for useful exchange. Someone will always betray that trust sometime, somehow. Looking for conspiracies is useless, a misdirection from larger issues and the consequences of personal choices. But in every moment one can begin anew. In the end, altruism wins and the 'grab it first' person is isolated. The Golden Rule and mutual restraint are useful guides to peaceful coexistence and prosperity. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 11:58:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65IvQCV007381; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:57:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65IvKfi007309; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:57:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:57:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <7aa07747-173d-46a1-89f6-afc82be960c8> Message-ID: <005b01c58193$53f15e30$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050705182850.QXLC6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:56:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <8zSFs.A.CyB.OgtyCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 > > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > > >In the early 1400s China was *the* great power and an immense fleet was > > >built and launched to map the world and bring it under the Chinese tribute > > >system. The world was mapped, and America discovered in 1421. Philip the > > >Navigator of Portugal and Columbus had seen copies of the Chinese maps. > > > > > > > Really? Columbus had seen Chinese maps showing America? Then why was > > he so confused about the size of the world and so totally ignorant of > > the possibility that there might be another continent lurking between > > Europe and China? > > http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/24/features/chinam.php > > Can you imagine America being named after Zheng He? ;-) ------------------------ Thanks to Terry for spotting this article with a direct quote supporting my remark about Columbus having seen the Chinese maps. The above link gives a good capsule summary with more evidence pouring forth. Years ago I was fascinated by Hapgood's "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings" which took the map of Piri Reis and others and showed an ancient comprehension of the world, with accurate longitude, that was beyond the technology of Europe at the time the maps were created. It all suggested satellite mapping. Now comes the Chinese maps, and perhaps earlier ones of the Mongols that establishes a human, although epic, accomplishment. There is a **lot** about the past achievements of humanity of which we are ignorant through temporal and Eurocentric chauvinism. America might legitimately be named after Zhend He if it were not for the centralized power of the Ming emperor, his excesses [including the great fleets] and the heaven-sent lightning bolt that burned his palace in the Forbidden City, leading to his downfall, and the turning inward of China whenthe great fleets returned. They had no great treasure, had not discovered great civilizations to bring tribute to China, so the merchant fleets were scrapped. Only now is China recovering from that mistake. Knights Templar? European provincial politics by comparison. No nation in Europe remotely had the capability that the Chinese did at the height of their weath and power. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 12:03:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65J07GB008786; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:03:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65IYslZ025082; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:34:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:34:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JtnBHE9cbKjhUw1j8cE38J4YnmvuRHdhhDtyJCkQ5fTOtamiilaSU+0rL8BU196v5nVF4HJbqlMWsRykLILKp6n2ZATO7T2HZOJ/RKDMEZCPUHwbVX+F8c4iXLS3jhEPxa6/o0GcH+6CsiU596P+FCx5qUYBXsh9QI1AUddr9ns= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:27:53 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 In-Reply-To: <42CAC021.4000903 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CAC021.4000903 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j65IYXhH024796 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: actually, there IS evidence that he had seen such maps. he thought them innacurate, and another side of china. hence his belief that he could find a shorter trade route. On 7/5/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >In the early 1400s China was *the* great power and an immense fleet was > >built and launched to map the world and bring it under the Chinese tribute > >system. The world was mapped, and America discovered in 1421. Philip the > >Navigator of Portugal and Columbus had seen copies of the Chinese maps. > > > > Really? Columbus had seen Chinese maps showing America? Then why was > he so confused about the size of the world and so totally ignorant of > the possibility that there might be another continent lurking between > Europe and China? > > Surely he must have realized the Chinese had not encountered Europe by > sailing east -- people in Europe would have noticed the arrival of the > Chinese fleet, and they manifestly had not. So a big bunch of land > located far, far off the Chinese coast could only have been another > continent. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 12:16:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65JFprg017518; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:15:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65JFmOJ017473; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:15:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:15:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CADB2D.9070601 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:10:37 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CAC021.4000903@pobox.com> <005101c5818f$bc050840$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <005101c5818f$bc050840$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4pdRED.A.xQE.ixtyCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 (China) > > > > >>Mike Carrell wrote: >> >> >> >>>In the early 1400s China was *the* great power and an immense fleet was >>>built and launched to map the world and bring it under the Chinese tribute >>> >>> >>>system. The world was mapped, and America discovered in 1421. Philip the >>>Navigator of Portugal and Columbus had seen copies of the Chinese maps. >>> >>> >>> >>Really? Columbus had seen Chinese maps showing America? Then why was >>he so confused about the size of the world and so totally ignorant of >>the possibility that there might be another continent lurking between >>Europe and China? >> >>Surely he must have realized the Chinese had not encountered Europe by >>sailing east -- people in Europe would have noticed the arrival of the >>Chinese fleet, and they manifestly had not. So a big bunch of land >>located far, far off the Chinese coast could only have been another >>continent. >> >> > >Take a look at the 1421 website. There is much more to this story. At the >time, the Chinese dominated trade in the Indian ocean and reached into the >Arab states, and around the horn or Africa. Much of that Europe called >'civilization' filtered in by the silk road and other routes for centuries, >for China was centuries to millennia advanced beyond Europe. The Chinese >world maps were established well before Columbus' voyage. Copies of the maps >or derivatives were around in the 1500's showing details of Antarctica and >the coastlines of eastern South America, well beyond the reach of the >voyages of Columbus or Philip the Navigator. > >What is most remarkable is that the Chinese maps, and their derivatives, >show accurate longitude centuries before the Harrison chronometers enabled >the determination of longitude at sea. Another method of determining >longitude for *mapping purposes* is based on observation of the eclipses of >the moon, or transits of the moons of Jupiter. > > Using a good sextant you can certainly determine longitude from the moon, without using a clock (but don't ask me for the details!). Joshua Slocum mentions that, in the book on his sail around the world; he didn't use a clock for navigation. Sailor's parlance for a fix taken with the moon (and no clock) is a "lunar" IIRC, and the technique has long been well-known, even in the Occident. :-) The drawback is that a lunar fix tends to be far less accurate than a solar fix obtained with the aid of a good clock. This is likely to be particularly annoying if you're trying to set up a rendezvous between two naval fleets, which surely was an issue of concern to the British admiralty. I don't know if you could get a reasonable lunar fix with a simple cross-staff or quadrant; dunno if they'd be accurate enough. On the other hand, after Ahab jumped up and down on his sextant he was SOL -- if you can't measure the angles you can't get a fix, with or without a clock. >Contrary to popular legend, Galileo was not the first to observe the moons >of Jupiter. The Chinese did so centuries earlier. > Well, say, rather, that he was the first European who did it and then talked about it. Hawking, in his rather fluffy History of Time, claims Galileo's observation of the moons of Jupiter was the final nail in the coffin of Ptolemy's Earth-centric universe (since the Jovian moons obviously don't orbit the Earth, save perhaps very indirectly); if so, then it was an Important Event even though he wasn't the first to see them. >It has been recently >confirmed that a good human eye under ideal seeing conditions can perceive >Jupiter as a disc and can perceive the moons under right conditions -- >again, dig down into the 1421 website for the contemporary story. Galileo's >telescope wasn't all that good, either. These methods don't help to know >where you are while at sea, but with care you can take data that will enable >you to know where you were when you get back home. > >As for Columbus, I might be a bit off, since I'm following the other story. >He may have seen the maps, or copies, but did not have the navigational >skill of the Chinese fleet decades earlier. The Chinese apparently did not >get to Europe by sailing across the Atlantic, but they got to Antarctica and >left traces of their presence up and down both coasts of the Americas. > >The 1421 story is a whole new look. Before concluding what could or could >not be, it is worthwhile to read the book and the website and see the >accumulation of evidence. It is a most remarkable story. > > Oh, I have no reason to doubt that the Chinese discovered America before Columbus -- that makes perfect sense. All I find puzzling is the thought that Columbus, with that knowledge in hand, still refused to accept the fact that America ^= China. But then, from what I've read Columbus was a bit of a blockhead in a number of ways so perhaps that's not so surprising. The fact that Aristotle was a "round-earther" and the Europeans of Columbus's time were mostly "flat-earthers" says a lot about how ephemeral such knowledge can be. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 12:30:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65JTnVY025857; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:29:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65JThVb025775; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:29:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:29:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050705144236.0443ec00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:29:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Navigation at sea In-Reply-To: <005101c5818f$bc050840$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CAC021.4000903 pobox.com> <005101c5818f$bc050840$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >What is most remarkable is that the Chinese maps, and their derivatives, >show accurate longitude centuries before the Harrison chronometers enabled >the determination of longitude at sea. Another method of determining >longitude for *mapping purposes* is based on observation of the eclipses of >the moon, or transits of the moons of Jupiter. The Chinese assuredly did not have portable watches of any sort, so they must have used some form of purely celestial navigation to determine longitude. There were some methods in use long before Harrison's chronometer. Lunar methods were the most widespread and reliable. I doubt the moons of Jupiter played a role, even if they could be observed without a telescope. An eclipse or transit is indeed is a spectacular and handy way to establish precise longitude. However I think (but I am not sure) that the main technique was to predict in advance which stars and constellations would be eclipsed by the moon, and this was the basis for lunar longitude calculations that could be performed even at sea. That technique was perfected just about the same time as Harrison's watch, in the late 18th century. Lunar tables were published until around 1911, as I recall. I think other method used the time of moonrise, and the angle between the moon and the sun, measured with an astrolabe. Some of these techniques called for timekeeping lasting of several hours, accurate to the nearest minute, for example, to measure the time from sunset to moonrise. This could be done with things like sand clocks and, in Europe, with primitive pocket watches after the late 1600s. Galileo's method using Jovian moons was never practical at sea, but it was a great success on land, with observatories. Here is a funny quote from D. Sobel (p. 27) about that: "King Louis XIV of France, confronted with a revised map of his domain based on accurate longitude measurements, reportedly complained that he was losing more territory to his astronomers than to his enemies." I have no idea what methods the Chinese used to establish longitude. Clock based celestial navigation was used well into the 20th century, even on board aircraft. This was described by the late, great Guy Murchie, in "Song of the Sky." Murchie taught navigation during WWII. Even after the war, when radio navigation was being established, navigation using a sextant in an aircraft observation dome was still essential, and it was seldom easy or accurate. It sometimes resulted in disastrous errors. Flights went hundreds of miles off course. In 1949, one was lost at sea off of Ireland because of a spectacular error. WWII radar navigation and direction finding was sometimes 180 degrees incorrect (for example in the U.S. attempt to locate the Japanese fleet after the attack on Pearl Harbor). This led to the loss of many aircraft, which flew off in the opposite direction, never to be heard from again. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 12:51:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65JohaC006964; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:50:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65Joe3c006925; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:50:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:50:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:50:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050705195021.TBQF6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" > Knights Templar? European provincial politics by comparison. No nation in > Europe remotely had the capability that the Chinese did at the height of > their weath and power. The Templars commanded a huge fleet of ships. It is believed that the Jolly Roger was flown by fleet after Philip and Clement conspired to disban them. Some even believe that the alleged treasure of Oak Island was put there by the Templars. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 12:53:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65JrEcG008194; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:53:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65JrBxf008151; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:53:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:53:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050705152922.044489c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:52:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Europeans were NOT flat earthers! In-Reply-To: <42CADB2D.9070601 pobox.com> References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CAC021.4000903 pobox.com> <005101c5818f$bc050840$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CADB2D.9070601 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j65Jr38f008055 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >The fact that Aristotle was a "round-earther" and the Europeans of >Columbus's time were mostly "flat-earthers" says a lot about how ephemeral >such knowledge can be. They were not! Even in medieval times, very few educated Europeans doubted that the earth is round. This is one of my pet peeves. Only a handful of medieval scholars are known to have believed the world is flat, and the two most prominent ones were both considered crackpots by their contemporaries. Not a single member of the European elite -- the kings, admirals, map makers, and other top brass -- opposed Columbus on this basis. They all said the earth is round but it is much bigger than Columbus has calculated. They were right, of course. If he had not bumped into America, Columbus would have run out of provisions long before he reached the Orient. There is an excellent book about this subject, “Inventing the Flat Earth” (Praeger, 1991) and a good review of the book in the New York Times. Here are some quotes: New York Times, April 25, 1992 Beliefs Peter Steinfels Myth turned inside out: exploring the legend of the flat-Earth theory and Columbus. The belief in a flat Earth is a modern invention, a myth that reveals a good deal about the underlying dogma of an age claiming to be scientific. Only in the last century did the idea spread that when Christopher Columbus set sail he was challenging a belief, entrenched in theology and enforced by the church that the world was flat. That belief, the story goes, was questioned only by a rebellious or scientifically advanced minority. None of the documents from Columbus’s day or the early accounts of his labors suggest that there was any debate about the roundness of the Earth. Yet by the end of the 19th century, the drama of Columbus versus the flat-Earth believers had become a staple of textbooks. Even today, although many standard histories have corrected the error, the idea that Christiandom had suppressed or forgotten the Greek philosophers’ discovery of a spherical world remains a fixture in educated minds and regularly re-emerges in the works of eminent scholars. . . . [Does this begin to sound familiar? - JR] How did such a palpable error arise, and why did it persist? . . . The book, “Inventing the Flat Earth” (Praeger, 1991), is more than an investigation into a quirk of intellectual history. It effectively reverses an old question. Instead of asking why medieval thinkers so dogmatically insisted that the Earth was flat, it says we must ask why modern thinkers, in the face of so much contrary evidence, dogmatically insisted on a flat-Earth consensus that never existed. . . . Oddly enough, a major source of that mythology was the genial Ameri­can creator of Rip van Winkle and Ichabod Crane. In 1828, Washington Irving published a novelistic biography of Columbus featuring a fictitious confrontation between the brave explorer and Inquisition-ridden clerics and professors from the University of Salamanca. They pelted Columbus with quotations from the Bible and church fathers to prove that the Earth was flat. Samuel Eliot Morison, in his biography of Columbus, calls the episode “pure moonshine.” . . . Myths frequently operate to confirm the myth-makers’ claims of superiority, to lend legitimacy to their ouster of other groups from political or cultural power. The flat-Earth mythology, it turns out, is not a case of medieval certainty about the literal truth of the Bible. It arose as an expression of modernity’s faith in scientific progress. It dramatized the claim that the intelligence of a religious past could be dismissed in the name of a scientific present. . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 13:59:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65KwvWT012574; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:59:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65Kwj6S012494; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:58:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:58:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:58:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050705205820.UVSD6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry, I'm slow; but, I finally read the referenced paper from JLN's web page. If I read it correctly (I hate it when Europeans use periods instead of commas), the dissociation energy of H2 is 103 cal/gram-mole while the recombination energy is 90,000 cal/gram-mole giving a COP of about 874. Is this right? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 16:47:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j65NkVAv011762; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:46:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j65NkTkd011729; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:46:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:46:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006401c581bb$b86632a0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050705205820.UVSD6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:46:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: T.B. > Sorry, I'm slow; but, I finally read the referenced paper from JLN's web page. If I read it correctly (I hate it when Europeans use periods instead of commas), the dissociation energy of H2 is 103 cal/gram-mole while the recombination energy is 90,000 cal/gram-mole giving a COP of about 874. > Is this right? In a word, no. I think someone musta left out a "k" ... or else was on the diet of worms.. ;-) ... as the dietary Calorie (the oft-neglected use of upper case 'C') equals 1000 'physics' calories. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 17:32:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j660WGRH000840; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:32:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j660WF86000833; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:32:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:32:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <008a01c581c2$14387510$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CAC021.4000903@pobox.com> <005101c5818f$bc050840$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CADB2D.9070601@pobox.com> Subject: Chinese navigation Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:21:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Both Jed and Steve Lawrence responded to my comments about Chinese navigation and longitude measurement. Rather than annotate each post, I will comment on both, based on Menzies' book. Longitude is based on measurement of time from some reference point. In the contest between Harrison and the British astronomers which I have read about, reference was made to a complex mathematical method using lunar observation. I don't know details. Menzies notes, and many agree, that the Chinese were master astronomers who knew the sky very, very well. They made precision 'sundials' and water clocks which were calibrated with the sundials. At a landfall on a distant shore, an observatory could be built which would accurately define the zenith and the local meridian. An eclipse of the moon gave precise moments which could be related to the position against the fixed stars. This event was simultaneously observable from the Chinese reference observatory. When sailors returned it was possible to accurately determine the angular relationship on the surface of the earth, and thereby the longitude. The Polynesians also navigated across long stretches of ocean, based on the night sky and the rhythm of the waves as refracted from distant islands, and other factors. Lunar eclipses aren't often convenient. The transit of Jupiter by one of its moons is a much more frequent event, simultaneously observable at two points, and the relative longitude established back home. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 17:33:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j660U8Dc032420; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:32:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j660IBWM026491; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:18:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:18:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.54.193] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:17:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706001757.BQUT25209.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > > In a word, no. > > I think someone musta left out a "k" ... or else was on the diet > of worms.. ;-) ... as the dietary Calorie (the oft-neglected > use of upper case 'C') equals 1000 'physics' calories. Okay, Jonesee: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/article.htm p. 12 toward the bottom. It's all relative. Pls 'splain. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 17:36:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j660Zjt1002681; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:35:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j660ZgPC002650; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:35:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:35:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.54.193] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:35:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706003530.XPPM4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > From: "Jones Beene" > > > > In a word, no. > > > > I think someone musta left out a "k" ... or else was on the diet > > of worms.. ;-) ... as the dietary Calorie (the oft-neglected > > use of upper case 'C') equals 1000 'physics' calories. > > Okay, Jonesee: > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/article.htm > > p. 12 toward the bottom. Ackshully, last paragraph on the page. I must apologize in advance since English *was* my first language. "She turned me into a duck. . . . . . . . . I got better." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 17:46:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j660k4pr007721; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:46:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j660k0s5007659; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:46:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:46:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007601c581c4$03b89a10$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706001757.BQUT25209.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:45:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Okay, Jonesee: > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/article.htm > > p. 12 toward the bottom. > It's all relative. Pls 'splain. I wasn't saying that the error was not there, just that errors often keep reproducing themselves indiscriminantly over the internet ( I've probably been responsible for initiating more than my share, for whatever reason!) ... ah... the beauty of cut-and-paste does have its downside, doesn't it? ... so how does one stop this pathology? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 17:50:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j660mjpT009547; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:48:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j660mLW6009234; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:48:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:48:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <009701c581c4$42558080$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050705195021.TBQF6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:43:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 > > From: "Mike Carrell" > > > Knights Templar? European provincial politics by comparison. No nation in > > Europe remotely had the capability that the Chinese did at the height of > > their weath and power. > > The Templars commanded a huge fleet of ships. It is believed that the Jolly Roger was flown by fleet after Philip and Clement conspired to disban them. > > Some even believe that the alleged treasure of Oak Island was put there by the Templars. ---------------------------- As I previously noted, many legends swirl around the Templars, including Oak Island and Rosslyn chapel in Scotland. Menzies claims that the great Chinese fleet numbered some 800, with double hulled treasure ships carrying ove a thousand men, with tenders which were floating gardens. The scale of the operation simply boggles. Nothing that Europe could do at the time came anywhere close. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 18:41:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j661dabc005525; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:39:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j661dP4F005318; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:39:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:39:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.54.193] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:38:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706013847.YYPO4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" ... so how does > one stop this pathology? Mine or the Inet's? Pls to explain the error. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 18:52:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j661q718013848; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:52:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j661q2xH013699; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:52:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:52:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009901c581cd$3b7f3b80$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706013847.YYPO4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:51:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <9a7fUB.A.yVD.6kzyCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Mine or the Inet's? Pls to explain the error. Well, it is the "c/C" error in the original article ... if we are on the same page. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 19:04:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6620F0k018332; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:03:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j661gGMU007142; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:42:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:42:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.54.193] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OT Re: July 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:41:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706014138.ZAPN4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" > As I previously noted, many legends swirl around the Templars Swirl? Thanks to bringing all back on-topic. I'll try to annoy you less in the future. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 19:04:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6620F0m018332; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:03:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j661bkgH004351; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:37:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:37:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VZeXjuL1MAv3wUSKTVgtZGXZNpNrDIDOVotTME+dWd7JQfjKBfduK39axZ1LNEzhxybghf+FltRGf/ReMM3YV2F16o9OV4oqDjin9qlMe0WJpwVvc3FUdSmRAqwc1oJ3mq6AKECf5KXSb1WZozG+jVF/BB5nLcWTTiUvhK9nmZ0= ; Message-ID: <20050706013722.52561.qmail web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Atomic Hydrogen from Pulsed Plasma To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-588154265-1120613842=:51115" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-588154265-1120613842=:51115 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are three basic differences between the Langmuir torch and my Pulsed Plasma device - however they are similar in many ways. 1: my plasma is hotter 2: my plasma is produced unlike any current technologies 3: my plasma generation cost is a fraction of current plasmas I don't have 70 years to get these points across, and neither do you or your children. http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-588154265-1120613842=:51115 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
There are three basic differences between the Langmuir torch and my Pulsed Plasma device - however they are similar in many ways.
 
1: my plasma is hotter
2: my plasma is produced unlike any current technologies
3: my plasma generation cost is a fraction of current plasmas
 
I don't have 70 years to get these points across, and neither do you or your children.
 
 
Chris

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-588154265-1120613842=:51115-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 19:34:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j662UNH7008594; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:33:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j662NX7H004222; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:23:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:23:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CB3F40.80706 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:17:36 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chinese navigation References: <20050704213452.HEDX11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000f01c58107$e3075570$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CAC021.4000903@pobox.com> <005101c5818f$bc050840$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CADB2D.9070601@pobox.com> <008a01c581c2$14387510$5b7accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <008a01c581c2$14387510$5b7accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Both Jed and Steve Lawrence responded to my comments about Chinese >navigation and longitude measurement. Rather than annotate each post, I will >comment on both, based on Menzies' book. > >Longitude is based on measurement of time from some reference point. > Time can be measured by observing the location of the moon against the background of the fixed stars. Similarly, with accurate tables of lunar eclipses, the time is known precisely at the moment of the eclipse. As far as I know, all methods of "lunar navigation" are equivalent to determining the time from an observation of the moon relative to other bodies, and then determining longitude by (simultaneously) observing the location of either the moon or another celestial body relative to the horizon. The details get messy, of course, as with all celestial navigation, and the fact that somewhere in there the celestial time is being determined and then used may be hidden under the mass of detail. > In the >contest between Harrison and the British astronomers which I have read >about, reference was made to a complex mathematical method using lunar >observation. I don't know details. > >Menzies notes, and many agree, that the Chinese were master astronomers who >knew the sky very, very well. They made precision 'sundials' and water >clocks which were calibrated with the sundials. At a landfall on a distant >shore, an observatory could be built which would accurately define the >zenith and the local meridian. An eclipse of the moon gave precise moments >which could be related to the position against the fixed stars. This event >was simultaneously observable from the Chinese reference observatory. When >sailors returned it was possible to accurately determine the angular >relationship on the surface of the earth, and thereby the longitude. > >The Polynesians also navigated across long stretches of ocean, based on the >night sky and the rhythm of the waves as refracted from distant islands, and >other factors. > >Lunar eclipses aren't often convenient. The transit of Jupiter by one of its >moons is a much more frequent event, simultaneously observable at two >points, and the relative longitude established back home. > > And the location of the moon versus the fixed stars is something that's always available, and as noted above it also provides a celestial "clock". The drawback, as noted in previous posts, is that it's hard to get a _precise_ time by observing the moon against the stars: it moves too slowly relative to the fixed stars. In consequence, lunar navigation is inherently less accurate than clock-based solar navigation, assuming the same instruments are used to measure the angles in both situations. I don't recall off hand exactly what the typical precision of a lunar fix was, but what I do recall is that even using a modern sextant, it's a whole lot worse than a clock-based solar fix. Occultations of particular stars by the moon could provide better precision than measuring angles against stars at positive separation, but then you're dependent on the precision of the tables of occultations; that's also likely to introduce substantial errors. Lunar eclipses can be used as you describe without the use of precomputed tables. For navigation at sea you'd need the tables, of course. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 5 19:40:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j662dbvE013154; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:39:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j662dY3R013131; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:39:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:39:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CB4324.6040409 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:34:12 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Cultural relativity References: <2.2.32.20050627184756.009a7338 pop.freeserve.net> <42C05D3F.9000508@ix.netcom.com> <42C44FD0.90409@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <42C44FD0.90409 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > > thomas malloy wrote: > >> Ed Storms replied >> >>> The great Christian cultures are rapidly destroying the rain >>> forests, over fishing the oceans, and polluting the atmosphere with >>> CO2. In other words, a large number of Christians are taking several >>> approaches that may well destroy our own culture while spending >>> their political support and money trying to save other cultures from >>> "evil". How do you deal with this problem? >> >> >> Have you ever seen bugs (microorganisms) grown on a petri plate? They >> overgrow the medium and die. Well the Earth is a petri plate, and >> sustainability is a liberal myth. > > > In other words, your God has made mankind unable to resist destroying > the earth and only by his intervention will the "ideal" people be saved. Perhaps it is worth pointing out that there is an issue of fact here as well as an issue of philosophy: the "inevitable" crash in the petri dish isn't really all that inevitable. A petri dish with ONE kind of bacterium will indeed show a boom/crash pattern and the whole bacterial "civilization" will end up dead. In general, any _simple_ closed ecosystem with no input but energy will show such a boom/crash pattern. However, as the number of species increases, the stability of the system as a whole typically increases, and when the number of species is allowed to become really enormous, one can achieve a level of stability that may allow a healthy ecosystem to survive for billions of years. The world around us provides an obvious demonstration of that (unless you're glued to the "young earth" model, of course). Biodiversity is not just good for tourism. It's apparently one of the requirements for having a stable ecosystem. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 05:27:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66CQpWQ028858; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 05:26:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66CQbxx028612; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 05:26:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 05:26:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 8:26:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706122624.RPQP8050.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Well, it is the "c/C" error in the original article ... if we are > on the same page. Quoting: "From Langmuir's experiments and findings we know that the minimum calorific value for the recombination of atoms was agreed to be in the region 90.000 cal/gram molecule. In other words we have an input energy of 103 cal/gram molecule and an output energy of 90.000 cal/gram molecule." So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying one of these numbers is in nutritional Calories and the other in thermal calories? If so, this process is not ou (or the numbers are off). I'll try reading Langmuir's original May 4, 1912 article and see if I can figure which is true. http://pubs.acs.org/ncw/2003/articles/ja02208a003.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 07:16:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66EGLPU009725; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:16:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66EGJPM009690; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:16:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:16:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c58235$3d24b2e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706122624.RPQP8050.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:15:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <7adL4.A.JXC.xe-yCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" >> Well, it is the "c/C" error in the original article ... if we >> are >> on the same page. > "From Langmuir's experiments and findings we know that the > minimum calorific value for the recombination of atoms was > agreed to be in the region 90.000 cal/gram molecule. In other > words we have an input energy of 103 cal/gram molecule and an > output energy of 90.000 cal/gram molecule." > So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying one of these > numbers is in nutritional Calories and the other in thermal > calories? If so, this process is not ou (or the numbers are > off). Yes. The sequential process of dissociation/recombination in a plasma or gas is not OU. Too bad that error keeps getting repeated. Away from any metal surface, the dissociation energy (H2 -> 2H = 435.99 kJ·mol-1) = ~104 kcal/gm-mol. However, the same does not apply to catalytic dissociation on a metal surface, which would be where the OU would be found IF it exists in the simple situation... but the recombination is also less, therefore, this is another or the reasons why I do not think that "atomic hydrogen" is the modus operandi for any excess energy which is found in the MAHG. I am looking for an authoritative source on this, as I am no expert, but if you find it first, please post. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 07:43:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66EgXqK026790; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:42:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66EgVWi026762; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:42:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:42:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:42:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706144219.FFNH11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Yes. The sequential process of dissociation/recombination in a > plasma or gas is not OU. Too bad that error keeps getting > repeated. You realize, of course, that this is the entire basis for Naudin's M(oller)AHG experiments. I am continuing to look into this. Unfortunately, I am a government consultant and our fiscal year just began. Amazing how we can go from no activity to everything is due in "two weeks". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 08:26:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66FOtJm001668; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:25:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66FOoI5001561; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:24:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:24:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CBF7D6.3000908 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:25:10 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir References: <20050706144219.FFNH11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050706144219.FFNH11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion. In this case, the tungsten cathode is the nuclear active environment into which p+ and d+ are driven by the high voltages used. The unstable nature of the plasma, either by natural processes or by applying pulsed DC, causes a hydrogen flux into and out of the W lattice, which drives a fusion and transmutation process. In any case, it makes no sense for the extra energy to be made by the ionization process involving hydrogen. If this were the source, every electrolytic cell would be OU, which is not the case. Ed Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: "Jones Beene" > > >>Yes. The sequential process of dissociation/recombination in a >>plasma or gas is not OU. Too bad that error keeps getting >>repeated. > > > You realize, of course, that this is the entire basis for Naudin's M(oller)AHG experiments. > > I am continuing to look into this. Unfortunately, I am a government consultant and our fiscal year just began. Amazing how we can go from no activity to everything is due in "two weeks". > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 08:32:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66FVZHD008703; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:31:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66FVV92008608; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:31:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:31:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007501c5823f$b8b8b370$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706144219.FFNH11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42CBF7D6.3000908@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:31:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, >I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including >Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion. Then what would be the reaction? H+H -->D + e ? A transmutation reaction with the W would need to overcome far higher Coulomb repulsion forces, no? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 08:32:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66FWEtL009315; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:32:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66FW7cm009208; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:32:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:32:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006801c5823e$e07f0090$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706144219.FFNH11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:25:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, >> Yes. The sequential process of dissociation/recombination in a >> plasma or gas is not OU. Too bad that error keeps getting >> repeated. > You realize, of course, that this is the entire basis for > Naudin's M(oller)AHG experiments. Not exactly. I think they realize that the tungsten metal interface is where the "action" is... and not within the gas/plasma itself. However, catalysis has never been found to violate the laws of thermodynamics before now(assuming that the LENR phenomena... or the hydrino... is more than "just" interfacial catalysis with an active metal). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 08:36:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66FZtSv011989; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:36:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66FZrie011937; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:35:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:35:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008001c58240$58b6a5d0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706144219.FFNH11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42CBF7D6.3000908@ix.netcom.com> <007501c5823f$b8b8b370$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:35:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: oops... > Then what would be the reaction? H+H -->D + e ? that should be H+H+e -->D From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 09:13:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66GD2nQ009030; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:13:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66GCwGo008984; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:12:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:12:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:12:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706161246.HJDD11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > that should be H+H+e -->D Then hydrogen will be consumed and the cell efficiency should decrease over time. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 09:17:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66GGnOZ011399; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:16:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66GGgkP011322; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:16:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:16:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Kz0MfpUggJpE71wRxqZgfENBhqURKGsaP0FxAFDqmre/ArpitF93zb0Piiepdsr9E1bA+1G6eTgdjee35p//HDzM60NigyEXbwIbaNUsGh+v3BdYewl2No2qPsStpqx3WUHLameIEHMnqfhNws5ES9YOGYq5/VvxHAoDvo/xZWM= ; Message-ID: <20050706161618.25971.qmail web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:16:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <42CBF7D6.3000908 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-631788034-1120666578=:25240" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <5NQWz.A.ywC.pPAzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-631788034-1120666578=:25240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ed, that was a refreshing post. Chris Edmund Storms wrote: I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion. In this case, the tungsten cathode is the nuclear active environment into which p+ and d+ are driven by the high voltages used. The unstable nature of the plasma, either by natural processes or by applying pulsed DC, causes a hydrogen flux into and out of the W lattice, which drives a fusion and transmutation process. In any case, it makes no sense for the extra energy to be made by the ionization process involving hydrogen. If this were the source, every electrolytic cell would be OU, which is not the case. Ed Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: "Jones Beene" > > >>Yes. The sequential process of dissociation/recombination in a >>plasma or gas is not OU. Too bad that error keeps getting >>repeated. > > > You realize, of course, that this is the entire basis for Naudin's M(oller)AHG experiments. > > I am continuing to look into this. Unfortunately, I am a government consultant and our fiscal year just began. Amazing how we can go from no activity to everything is due in "two weeks". > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-631788034-1120666578=:25240 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Ed, that was a refreshing post.
 
Chris

Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including Naudin's
obtain their extra energy from cold fusion. In this case, the tungsten
cathode is the nuclear active environment into which p+ and d+ are
driven by the high voltages used. The unstable nature of the plasma,
either by natural processes or by applying pulsed DC, causes a hydrogen
flux into and out of the W lattice, which drives a fusion and
transmutation process.

In any case, it makes no sense for the extra energy to be made by the
ionization process involving hydrogen. If this were the source, every
electrolytic cell would be OU, which is not the case.

Ed

Terry Blanton wrote:

>>From: "Jones Beene"
>
>
>>Yes. The sequential process of dissociation/recombination in a
>>plasma or gas is not OU. Too bad that error keeps getting
>>repeated.
>
>
> You realize, of course, that this is the entire basis for Naudin's M(oller)AHG experiments.
>
> I am continuing to look into this. Unfortunately, I am a government consultant and our fiscal year just began. Amazing how we can go from no activity to everything is due in "two weeks".
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-631788034-1120666578=:25240-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 10:07:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66GW9kP022012; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:33:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66GW3ou021948; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:32:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:32:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:31:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706163147.HSXZ11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > From: "Jones Beene" > > > that should be H+H+e -->D > > Then hydrogen will be consumed and the cell efficiency should decrease over time. We should also see transmutation products in the reactor vessel metals. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 10:47:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66Hl7Y2011793; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:47:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66HkE4Q011241; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:46:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:46:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CC18F8.9040700 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:46:32 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir References: <20050706144219.FFNH11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42CBF7D6.3000908@ix.netcom.com> <007501c5823f$b8b8b370$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007501c5823f$b8b8b370$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9p57vD.A.jvC.jjBzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Ed, > >> I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including >> Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion. > > > Then what would be the reaction? H+H -->D + e ? Perhaps, but I suggest the more likely reaction is p + d = He3. This possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. Going from the normal 6000 ppm to 1% should make a big difference in heat generation. > > A transmutation reaction with the W would need to overcome far higher > Coulomb repulsion forces, no? Yes, but once the nuclear active conditions have been created, the Coulomb barrier appears to disappear for all reactions. Other factors appear to determine which reactions occur. At least that is what nature is trying to tell us based on many such observations. Ed > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 12:47:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66JkclJ004253; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:46:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66JkZRm004200; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:46:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:46:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=z3VMeaQITOpJcyWIF63pLNDbRazubm6iv39aR5GVjpGswlloCngiuOdm/shNbmaG83d8ofwy7FRUMUDnhtSZPcnCDTOQ5/ibj/eDxmwV3tds0mr0RHjTVITWEi565WxzqZUS+xxwV5ZXZmfPkGCj3avlBBmlKMwta52AwcxqtLQ= ; Message-ID: <20050706194614.5948.qmail web33314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:46:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <42CC18F8.9040700 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1606418111-1120679174=:4131" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1606418111-1120679174=:4131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ed, Perhaps the vanishing coulomb barrier would explain why gas I produce in my reactors registers as radioactive in my tritium monitor, and why SEM w/EDS spectrum is so strange as to suggest transmutations and why Nuclear Magnetic Resonance spectrum produced from my materials comes back as unidentifiable. Perhaps certain types of Plasma actually CAN bend the currently understood rules. Chris Edmund Storms wrote: Jones Beene wrote: > Ed, > >> I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including >> Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion. > > > Then what would be the reaction? H+H -->D + e ? Perhaps, but I suggest the more likely reaction is p + d = He3. This possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. Going from the normal 6000 ppm to 1% should make a big difference in heat generation. > > A transmutation reaction with the W would need to overcome far higher > Coulomb repulsion forces, no? Yes, but once the nuclear active conditions have been created, the Coulomb barrier appears to disappear for all reactions. Other factors appear to determine which reactions occur. At least that is what nature is trying to tell us based on many such observations. Ed > > Jones > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1606418111-1120679174=:4131 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Ed,
 
Perhaps the vanishing coulomb barrier would explain why gas I produce in my reactors registers as radioactive in my tritium monitor, and why SEM w/EDS spectrum is so strange as to suggest transmutations and why Nuclear Magnetic Resonance spectrum produced from my materials comes back as unidentifiable.
 
Perhaps certain types of Plasma actually CAN bend the currently understood rules.
 
Chris
 

Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:


Jones Beene wrote:

> Ed,
>
>> I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including
>> Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion.
>
>
> Then what would be the reaction? H+H -->D + e ?

Perhaps, but I suggest the more likely reaction is p + d = He3. This
possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. Going
from the normal 6000 ppm to 1% should make a big difference in heat
generation.
>
> A transmutation reaction with the W would need to overcome far higher
> Coulomb repulsion forces, no?

Yes, but once the nuclear active conditions have been created, the
Coulomb barrier appears to disappear for all reactions. Other factors
appear to determine which reactions occur. At least that is what nature
is trying to tell us based on many such observations.

Ed
>
> Jones
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1606418111-1120679174=:4131-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 12:51:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66JoovU007976; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:50:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66JomV5007952; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:50:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:50:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:50:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Edmund Storms > > This > possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. According to the referenced paper, the presence of water can kill the reaction due to oxidation of the Wolfram. But, obviously one cannot have much confidence in Moller if he confuses c & C. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 13:32:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66KVIEu006741; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:31:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66KV6jG006598; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:31:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:31:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CC3F9E.1080300 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:31:26 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In this case, he should add D2 to the H2. Ed Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: Edmund Storms > > > >>This >>possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. > > > According to the referenced paper, the presence of water can kill the reaction due to oxidation of the Wolfram. But, obviously one cannot have much confidence in Moller if he confuses c & C. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 13:43:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66KhTvt016560; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:43:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66KhR5l016533; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:43:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:43:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CC428A.3020700 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:43:54 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir References: <20050706194614.5948.qmail web33314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050706194614.5948.qmail web33314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well Chris, looks like you already have some evidence for nuclear reaction products. Your set up is identical to the plasma cells using water, in as far as interaction at the W surface is concerned. You split H2 into H+ at the W surface, while a plasma using H2O also forms H+ at the W surface. In each case the H+ is caused to impact the W surface with a significant amount of energy. Quite a bit of study of H2O and D2O plasmas by several laboratories show formation of transmutation products. Also, Claytor produced tritium using this method. You should be seeing the same effect. Add a little D2 to the H2 and you should see a big increase in heat generation. Ed Christopher Arnold wrote: > Ed, > > Perhaps the vanishing coulomb barrier would explain why gas I produce in > my reactors registers as radioactive in my tritium monitor, and why SEM > w/EDS spectrum is so strange as to suggest transmutations and why > Nuclear Magnetic Resonance spectrum produced from my materials comes > back as unidentifiable. > > Perhaps certain types of Plasma actually CAN bend the currently > understood rules. > > Chris > > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Ed, > > > >> I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including > >> Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion. > > > > > > Then what would be the reaction? H+H -->D + e ? > > Perhaps, but I suggest the more likely reaction is p + d = He3. This > possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. Going > from the normal 6000 ppm to 1% should make a big difference in heat > generation. > > > > A transmutation reaction with the W would need to overcome far > higher > > Coulomb repulsion forces, no? > > Yes, but once the nuclear active conditions have been created, the > Coulomb barrier appears to disappear for all reactions. Other factors > appear to determine which reactions occur. At least that is what nature > is trying to tell us based o! n many such observations. > > Ed > > > > Jones > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 13:53:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66KqRMD021815; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:52:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66KqNt2021765; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:52:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:51:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir In-Reply-To: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellso uth.net> References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3sUEl.A.1TF.GSEzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >According to the referenced paper, the presence of water can kill the >reaction due to oxidation of the Wolfram. Wolf . . . You mean tungsten. >. . . But, obviously one cannot have much confidence in Moller if he >confuses c & C. And obviously ve cannot have much confidence in Herr Blanton, since he confuses German und Englisch. Ya? - Jed (nicht ernst) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 14:04:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66L42I9028000; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:04:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66L3x4J027945; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:03:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:03:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:03:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706210346.CKMX11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > Wolf . . . You mean tungsten. :-) Yes, but the symbol on the periodic table is W. To me 'tungsten' sounds like anatomy. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 14:24:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66LNpBI006985; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:23:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66LNmRn006948; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:23:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:23:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706171418.0443d820 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:19:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir In-Reply-To: <20050706210346.CKMX11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050706210346.CKMX11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Yes, but the symbol on the periodic table is W. To me 'tungsten' sounds >like anatomy. Ah . . . As in: "Wha th' matter with you? Cat got your tungsten?" "Yeth, and she won't le' go." - Jed (who has spent the last 6 hours wading through Japanese papers on isotopes, SIMS, and XPS, and needs a break . . .) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 14:34:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66LXYCW012991; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:33:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66LXW9n012926; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:33:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:33:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404j6$133pb6l mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,266,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1178381525:sNHT22001012" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:33:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > Terry Blanton wrote: > > >Yes, but the symbol on the periodic table is W. To > > me 'tungsten' sounds > >like anatomy. > > Ah . . . As in: > > "Wha th' matter with you? Cat got your tungsten?" > > "Yeth, and she won't le' go." > > > - Jed (who has spent the last 6 hours wading through > Japanese papers on isotopes, SIMS, and XPS, and needs > a break . . .) > Perhaps a stiff belt of sake? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 14:42:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66LfcWU018858; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:41:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66LfaC2018826; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:41:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:41:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:41:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706214124.NJKT11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > "Wha th' matter with you? Cat got your tungsten?" > > "Yeth, and she won't le' go." LOL! I think it was comedian Steve Wright: "I gave my cat a bath the other day. She really enjoyed it but I hated all that hair on my tongue." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 14:53:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66LqW7f026199; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:52:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66LqUfG026172; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:52:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:52:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: JLN Labs Yahoo Group Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:52:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050706215215.NOFA11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good news, bad news, and good news. I was able to join the group. But, I think I have been blocked from posting after telling one of the members that he can't make a MAHG from a light bulb since it kinda lacked an anode. Either that or they don't like anyone pointing out Mr. Beane's observation of Mollar's error re: c vs. C. :-) The last good news is that others are asking for a schematic; but, I don't think Naudin moderates since he only posts about once a month. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 15:18:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66MIaPq014399; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:18:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66MIWuQ014342; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:18:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:18:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:06:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Under the general category of "I'd rather be lucky than good" we find a list of discoveries which were not exactly precisely anticipated, but yet required a fair share of diligence and/or insight in order to develop into a "real" invention. I think Moller's "Eureka moment" may fit in this category better than anywhere else (if Naudin's figures hold up) because it is not exactly based on Langmuir, even though it was arguably intended to be. This lucky-find is usually called "serendipity" and goes back at least to Archimedes (supposedly) with his Eureka moment, but the average Archie wouldn't have picked up on the anomalous circumsances, nor filtered out the kernel of truth, as did Curie, Roentgen, Goodyear, and the guy who discovered Velcro, etc. Anyway, I am not so sure that this MAHG discovery falls into the LENR category. For one thing, Ed seems to be assuming that hydrogen gas, filled from a tank of H2, has the normal ratio of D found in surface water - which is approximately 6000 ppm - but I would dispute that hydrogen derived from methane has this ratio - that is too coincidental and most commercial H2 comes from methane. Plus any H2 process, whether it starts with methane or water is also likely to be an eneichment process for D2, which would be removed, due to its much higer value. Consequently the commercial H2 gas might be closer to 10 ppm than 6000 ppm.... Does anyone know how much D is actually in the bottled hydrogen which one gets from a gas supplier? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 16:08:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66N7cia012506; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:07:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66N7WTc012466; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:07:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:07:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DSzyjDmLAaHZRH+vyYVgfgz2rd3O3Uf7k2S+ef02TzvOnQl1pt6Hu6UQsbzDRAOTlWaT2aEdTqzTiKTurJ2ZbOZ5Uc5ub0b4ev1JPF0cpPxT5RVzyTc510xihn3tskJRGdVmN27jR+og5/iwnRuGzk7R3d4mEE7kI4q066B1VSg= ; Message-ID: <20050706230717.91573.qmail web33313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:07:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <42CC428A.3020700 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1832585862-1120691237=:90841" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1832585862-1120691237=:90841 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ed, I believe I do have fusion reaction products. In 2001 (or so) I had the good fortune to talk with Tom Clator about fusion from my device. His later experiments and literature also reveal Tritium production from a different type of Plasma. As I recall it was about 2000 volts but I do not remember the current, however his literature on Tritium production is available on the Internet. If you watch the video at http://hometown.aol.com/hypercom59/dlc.mpg - there is plenty of heat radiating throughout the chamber in the last two seconds of the video. Best Regards, Chris Well Chris, looks like you already have some evidence for nuclear reaction products. Your set up is identical to the plasma cells using water, in as far as interaction at the W surface is concerned. You split H2 into H+ at the W surface, while a plasma using H2O also forms H+ at the W surface. In each case the H+ is caused to impact the W surface with a significant amount of energy. Quite a bit of study of H2O and D2O plasmas by several laboratories show formation of transmutation products. Also, Claytor produced tritium using this method. You should be seeing the same effect. Add a little D2 to the H2 and you should see a big increase in heat generation. Ed Christopher Arnold wrote: > Ed, > > Perhaps the vanishing coulomb barrier would explain why gas I produce in > my reactors registers as radioactive in my tritium monitor, and why SEM > w/EDS spectrum is so strange as to suggest transmutations and why > Nuclear Magnetic Resonance spectrum produced from my materials comes > back as unidentifiable. > > Perhaps certain types of Plasma actually CAN bend the currently > understood rules. > > Chris > > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Ed, > > > >> I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including > >> Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion. > > > > > > Then what would be the reaction? H+H -->D + e ? > > Perhaps, but I suggest the more likely reaction is p + d = He3. This > possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. Going > from the normal 6000 ppm to 1% should make a big difference in heat > generation. > > > > A transmutation reaction with the W would need to overcome far > higher > > Coulomb repulsion forces, no? > > Yes, but once the nuclear active conditions have been created, the > Coulomb barrier appears to disappear for all reactions. Other factors > appear to determine which reactions occur. At least that is what nature > is trying to tell us based o! n many such observations. > > Ed > > > > Jones > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1832585862-1120691237=:90841 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Ed,
 
I believe I do have fusion reaction products. In 2001 (or so) I had the good fortune to talk with Tom Clator about fusion from my device. His later experiments and literature also reveal Tritium production from a different type of Plasma. As I recall it was about 2000 volts but I do not remember the current, however his literature on Tritium production is available on the Internet.
 
If you watch the video at http://hometown.aol.com/hypercom59/dlc.mpg - there is plenty of heat radiating throughout the chamber in the last two seconds of the video.
 
Best Regards,
Chris
Well Chris, looks like you already have some evidence for nuclear 
reaction products. Your set up is identical to the plasma cells using
water, in as far as interaction at the W surface is concerned. You
split H2 into H+ at the W surface, while a plasma using H2O also forms
H+ at the W surface. In each case the H+ is caused to impact the W
surface with a significant amount of energy. Quite a bit of study of
H2O and D2O plasmas by several laboratories show formation of
transmutation products. Also, Claytor produced tritium using this
method. You should be seeing the same effect. Add a little D2 to the H2
and you should see a big increase in heat generation.

Ed






Christopher Arnold wrote:

> Ed,
>
> Perhaps the vanishing coulomb barrier would explain why gas I produce in
> my reactors registers as radioactive in my tritium monitor, and why SEM
> w/EDS spectrum is so strange as to suggest transmutations and why
> Nuclear Magnetic Resonance spectrum produced from my materials comes
> back as unidentifiable.
>
> Perhaps certain types of Plasma actually CAN bend the currently
> understood rules.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>
>
> Jones Beene wrote:
>
> > Ed,
> >
> >> I would like to suggest that all plasma experiments, including
> >> Naudin's obtain their extra energy from cold fusion.
> >
> >
> > Then what would be the reaction? H+H -->D + e ?
>
> Perhaps, but I suggest the more likely reaction is p + d = He3. This
> possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. Going
> from the normal 6000 ppm to 1% should make a big difference in heat
> generation.
> >
> > A transmutation reaction with the W would need to overcome far
> higher
> > Coulomb repulsion forces, no?
>
> Yes, but once the nuclear active conditions have been created, the
> Coulomb barrier appears to disappear for all reactions. Other factors
> appear to determine which reactions occur. At least that is what nature
> is trying to tell us based o! n many such observations.
>
> Ed
> >
> > Jones
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1832585862-1120691237=:90841-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 16:43:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j66Ngk8C032440; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:42:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j66NgYgW032193; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:42:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:42:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CC6CD7.1090401 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:44:23 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Windmill News Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.insidebayarea.com/timesstar/localnews/ci_2842322 " A California Energy Commission study estimated wind turbines in the Altamont kill 881 to 1,300 birds of prey a year, including as many as 116 federally protected golden eagles." These are older designs. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 17:23:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j670N0TZ025247; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:23:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j670MvCt025196; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:22:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:22:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050706171239.028c6848 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:20:42 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Gas stations closing down? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just noticed the fourth gas station at a fairly busy intersection to close down and get dismantled within the last 12 months. One was an ARCO the other 3 CHEVRON. All of these stations had been in operation for at least a decade. Certainly the subject of "peak oil" seems to be neglected from US mainstream media. And most Americans who get their news from corporate America have no awareness of this topic. But the closing down of gas stations? This seems significant. Has anyone else noticed this trend and if so, in what part of the country or planet? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 17:33:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j670WVRe032716; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:32:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j670WQsH032636; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:32:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:32:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050706172956.028c03a0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:30:22 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Gas stations closing down? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050706171239.028c6848 mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050706171239.028c6848 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0xoTED.A.r9H.YgHzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: clarification...not all at one intersection...at various places around LA At 05:20 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote: >I just noticed the fourth gas station at a fairly busy intersection to >close down and get dismantled within the last 12 months. One was an ARCO >the other 3 CHEVRON. >All of these stations had been in operation for at least a decade. > >Certainly the subject of "peak oil" seems to be neglected from US >mainstream media. And most Americans who get their news from corporate >America have no awareness of this topic. > >But the closing down of gas stations? This seems significant. > >Has anyone else noticed this trend and if so, in what part of the country >or planet? > >Steve > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 17:41:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j670f05A006938; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:41:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j670evsY006889; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:40:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:40:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.217.12.2] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Gas stations closing down? Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:40:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050707004041.CKRD4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <2a4hiD.A.erB.YoHzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Steven Krivit > I just noticed the fourth gas station at a fairly busy intersection to > close down and get dismantled within the last 12 months. I'm a bit different. However, I posted this earlier; but, I'll try again. You can do your own search of "bilderberger germany 2005". Here's one result: http://www.spinwatch.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1060 Regarding "Energy An American Bilderberger expressed concern over the sky-rocketing price of oil. One oil industry insider at the meeting remarked that growth is not possible without energy and that according to all indicators, world's energy supply is coming to an end much faster than the world leaders have anticipated. According to sources, Bilderbergers estimate the extractable world's oil supply to be at a maximum of 35 years under current economic development and population. However, one of the representatives of an oil cartel remarked that we must factor into the equation, both the population explosion and economic growth and demand for oil in China and India. Under the revised conditions, there is apparently only enough oil to last for 20 years. No oil spells the end of the world's financial system. So much has already been acknowledged by The Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times, two periodicals who are regularly present at the annual Bilderberg conference. Conclusion: Expect a severe downturn in the world's economy over the next two years as Bilderbergers try to safeguard the remaining oil supply by taking money out of people's hands. In a recession or, at worst, a depression, the population will be forced to dramatically cut down their spending habits, thus ensuring a longer supply of oil to the world's rich as they try to figure out what to do. During the afternoon cocktail, European Bilderberger noted that there is no plausible alternative to hydrocarbon energy. One American insider stated that currently the world uses between four and six barrels of oil for every new barrel it finds and that the prospects for a short term break through are slim, at best. Someone asked for an estimate to the world´s accessible conventional oil supply. The amount was quoted at approximately one trillion barrels. As a side note of interest, the planet consumes a billion barrels of oil every 11.5 days. Another Bilderberger asked about hydrogen alternative to the oil supply. The US government official agreed gloomily that hydrogen salvation to the world´s eminent energy crisis is a fantasy. This confirms public statement made in 2003 by HIS, the world´s most respected consulting firm cataloguing oil reserved and discoveries that for the first time since the 1920s there was not a single discovery of an oil field in excess of 500 million barrels. The oil industry at the 2005 Bilderberg conference was represented by John Browne, BP´s Chief Executive Officer, John Kerr, Director Royal Dutch Shell, Peter D. Sutherland, BP Chairman and Jeroen van der Veer, Chairman Committee of Managing Directors Royal Dutch Shell. It should be remembered that in late 2003, oil giant Royal Dutch Shell, announced that it had overstated its reserved by as much as 20 percent. Queen Beatrix of Holland, Royal Dutch Shell´s principal shareholder is a full fledged member of the Bilderbergers. Her father, prince Bernhard was one of the founders of the group back in 1954. The Los Angeles Times reported that "For petroleum firms, reserves amount to nothing less that ´the value of the company´. In fact, Shell cut its reserve estimates not once, but three times, prompting the resignation of its co-chairman. At Rottach-Egern, in May 2005, industry's top executives tried to figure out how to keep the truth about diminishing oil reserves from reaching the public. Public knowledge of the diminishing reserved directly translates into lower share prices, which could destroy financial markets, leading to a collapse of the world economy. EU referendum in France The first day of secret meetings at Bilderberg 2005 was dominated by talk of EU referendum in France and whether Chirac can persuade France to vote Yes on May 29. A Yes vote, according to sources within Bilderberg would put a lot of pressure on Tony Blair to finally deliver Britain into the waiting arms of the New World Order through their own referendum on the treaty scheduled for 2006. Matthias Nass wondered out load that a No vote in France could undoubtedly cause political turmoil in Europe and overshadow Britain's six-month EU presidency starting on July 1. Bilderbergers, hope that Blair and Chirac, whose at times open animosity has spilled into a public arena on more than one occasion, can work together for mutual benefit and political survival. Another European Bilderberger added that both leaders must put behind them as quickly as possible all past disputes on such topics as Iraq, the liberalization of Europe´s economy and the future of budget rebate Britain receives from the EU and work towards complete European integration, which could desintigrate if France´s often "hard-headed and obstinate people", in the words of a British Bilderberger, do not do the right thing, meaning give up voluntarily their independence for the "greater good" of a Federal European super state! A German Bilderberger insider said that France´s Yes vote is in trouble because of the "outsourcing of jobs. Jobs in Germany and France are going to Asia and Ukraine," [to take advantage of cheap labour.] Ukraine is one of the former Soviet republics that have been admitted to the European Union bringing the total membership to 25 nations. A German politician wondered out loud how Tony Blair shall go about convincing Britons to embrace the European Constitution when due to the outsourcing of jobs, both Germany and France are suffering a 10% unemployment while Britain is doing well economically." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 19:46:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j672j4rm025568; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:45:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j672j0pm025501; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:45:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:45:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:43:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: FW: [4DWorldx] exotic force In-reply-to: <007c01c576f8$03db2e30$debc050a annaophb5ed3f4> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j672imoQ025321 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- June 20, 2005 http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2005/050620.Fischbach.gravity.html Physicists clarify exotic force, but no 'Theory of Everything' yet WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. – The quest for a single theory that unites all of the universe's fundamental forces has thus far eluded physicists, but that has not stopped a team of them from clearing the way for nanotechnologists while they look for it. The group, which includes Purdue University's Ephraim Fischbach, has recently completed research that improves our understanding of how tiny objects placed very close together can influence each other. Their experiment, which involves the behavior of a minuscule gold ball as it moves over different substances, shows that gravity behaves exactly as Isaac Newton predicted, even at small scales. Unfortunately for those in search of the so-called "Theory of Everything," the finding would seem to rule out the exceptions to his time-honored theories that physicists believe might occur when objects are tiny enough. But in the process, the team has measured another, less familiar, force that does influence small objects, and at those scales is more influential than gravity itself. Their precise observations of this Casimir force could make life easier for nanotechnologists, whose tiny creations will be subject to its effects. "We have measured the Casimir force with greater accuracy than has ever before been achieved," said Fischbach, who is a professor of physics in Purdue's College of Science. "Because this force can push small objects around, a clearer conception of its effects will be useful to the nanotech industry. Anyone creating a nanodevice will have to consider the Casimir force, just as a car manufacturer has to consider tire friction and air resistance." Just as car designers want to minimize the effects of friction on their vehicles, the research team wanted to minimize the effects of the Casimir force, which is expressed as a powerful attraction between tiny objects that are separated by a few hundred nanometers, or billionths of a meter. Members of the team have published other papers on related research; for more details on how the Casimir force works, see the previous story online. Their new paper, which appears in today's (Monday, June 20) issue of the scientific journal Physical Review Letters, represents a step forward not only in their measurement of the Casimir force, but also in their ability to see past it to the far fainter effects of gravity in the nanoworld, which team members believe could lead to far more profound knowledge about the universe. "We're doing work that could have cosmological implications, but it rests on the behavior of objects too small to see with the naked eye," said Ricardo S. Decca, the assistant professor of physics at Indiana University — Purdue University Indianapolis (IUPUI) who designed the experiment. "Though measuring the Casimir force has practical value for today's nanoengineers, what we are trying to do is find out whether gravity behaves differently than we think it does if the scale is small enough. The trouble is that the Casimir force is so strong at that scale that it virtually drowns out gravity to the point where it is unobservable." To solve the problem, the team placed a tiny sphere made of gold on the tip of a flexible cantilever, giving the impression of a ball on the end of a diving board. They mounted the cantilever on a mobile stand that could be moved from side to side. A few hundred nanometers beneath the sphere was a plate made of two different materials – gold on one side, germanium on the other – both of which were then covered in a very thin layer of gold. Because the influence of the Casimir force is noticeable over distances of only a few hundred nanometers, its effect between the gold surfaces of the ball and the plate were equal regardless of which material lay beneath the gold layer. But because gravity can be observed over greater distances, the team was able to move the sphere back and forth over the plate, observing how far the cantilever bent over the two sections. "Germanium has different mass than gold, so we knew the cantilever would bend further on one side than the other if gravity behaved as expected," Fischbach said. "The question was whether it would bend differently than Newton predicted because of some undiscovered exception to gravity's behavior on the quantum scale." Such a variation, if seen, would have been a revolutionary discovery because it might have allowed physicists to perceive the relationship between large-scale gravity and the tiny quantum world of elementary charged particles, which has proven elusive. "To this day, we still have to describe the behavior of the universe in terms of multiple forces – gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces," Fischbach said. "Gravity often seems to be the odd force out because the others are primarily visible on the quantum scale. Connecting it with the quantum world is the holy grail of physics, and we hoped this experiment would give us a clue of how to do it." No deviations from the expected behavior of gravity showed up in the experiment, but the team has plans to improve its methods to make even finer observations next time around. "We are trying to improve our experiment so it will be a million times more sensitive than it is now, which is already far more sensitive over this distance scale than anything done before," Decca said. "We think that is feasible with our technique. If we do find deviations then, it will give us a lead into what direction to look for the Theory of Everything." Until then, Fischbach said, the improved understanding of the Casimir force was an accomplishment that could assist both his group and more business-oriented researchers. "Without compensating for the Casimir force, nanoparticles might clump together, nanogears might jam and adjacent nanowires might short out due to its attraction effects," he said. "This study will hopefully bring a useful piece of information to design labs all over the still-nascent nanotechnology industry. And since our team is working with such small tools, it will likely help us the next time we redesign our experiment." In addition to Decca and Fischbach, the team consists of Daniel Lopez of Lucent Technologies, Dennis Krause of Wabash College and Chris Jamell of IUPUI. Their work was funded in part by the U.S. Department of Energy. Writer: Chad Boutin, (765) 494-2081, cboutin purdue.edu Sources: Ephraim Fischbach, (765) 494-5506, Ephraim physics.purdue.edu Ricardo S. Decca, (317) 278-7123, rdecca iupui.edu Purdue News Service: (765) 494-2096; purduenews purdue.edu ABSTRACT Constraining New Forces in the Casimir Regime Using the Isoelectronic Technique R. S. Decca, D. Lopez, H. B. Chan, E. Fischbach, D. E. Krause, and C. R. Jamell We report the first isoelectronic differential force measurements between a Au-coated probe and two Au-coated films, made out of Au and Ge. These measurements, performed at submicron separations using soft microelectromechanical torsional oscillators, eliminate the need for a detailed understanding of the probe-film Casimir interaction. The observed differential signal is directly converted into limits on the parameters alpha and lambda which characterize Yukawa-like deviations from Newtonian gravity. We find alpha is less than or equal to10^12 for lambda of approximately 200 nm, an improvement of approximately 10 over previous limits. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 21:45:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j674ia8i025574; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:44:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j674iYd0025550; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:44:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:44:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050706214156.028cacd8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:42:33 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Gas stations closing down? In-Reply-To: <20050707004041.CKRD4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellso uth.net> References: <20050707004041.CKRD4468.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Terry - that helps make a connection with what I'm seeing. At 05:40 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote: > > From: Steven Krivit > > > I just noticed the fourth gas station at a fairly busy intersection to > > close down and get dismantled within the last 12 months. > >I'm a bit different. However, I posted this earlier; but, I'll try >again. You can do your own search of "bilderberger germany 2005". Here's >one result: > >http://www.spinwatch.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1060 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 23:40:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j676eFps012116; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:40:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j676eDg1012093; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:40:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:40:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42CC18F8.9040700 ix.netcom.com> References: <20050706144219.FFNH11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42CBF7D6.3000908 ix.netcom.com> <007501c5823f$b8b8b370$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CC18F8.9040700 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:39:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jones Beene wrote: > >>Ed, >> >> > >Perhaps, but I suggest the more likely reaction is p + d = He3. This >possibility can be tested by adding a little D2O to the cell. Going >from the normal 6000 ppm to 1% should make a big difference in heat >generation. Excellent idea Jones. Given the rarity of He3, someone with the necessary instruments should be able to settle this matter. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 23:45:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j676jCtC014096; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:45:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j676jB99014064; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:45:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:45:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050706215215.NOFA11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20050706215215.NOFA11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:44:42 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: JLN Labs Yahoo Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton posted; >Good news, bad news, and good news. > >I was able to join the group. > >But, I think I have been blocked from posting after telling one of >the members that he can't make a MAHG from a light bulb since it >kinda lacked an anode. Either that or they don't like anyone >pointing out Mr. Beane's observation of Mollar's error re: c vs. C. >:-) Given the difficulty of drilling two holes into a light bulb, and then installing the necessary tubes, not to mention the anode, I couldn't help but laugh. As anyone who has worked with them knows, light bulbs and eggs are about equally fragile. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 6 23:46:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j676kI1b014590; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:46:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j676kGVb014559; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:46:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:46:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42CC6CD7.1090401 bellsouth.net> References: <42CC6CD7.1090401 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:45:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Windmill News Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <4TmLW.A.SjD.3-MzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >http://www.insidebayarea.com/timesstar/localnews/ci_2842322 > >" A California Energy Commission study estimated wind turbines in >the Altamont kill 881 to 1,300 birds of prey a year, including as >many as 116 federally protected golden eagles." > >These are older designs. Do we have a case here for macro evolution, survival of the fittest, or smartest? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 01:42:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j678fgVC006858; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:41:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j678fd1x006826; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:41:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:41:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20050707084127115.1B88F280013B mwinf1009.wanadoo.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: jdelag pop.wanadoo.fr Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:41:04 +0200 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean de Lagarde Subject: MAHG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Naudin is now Director of Research of GIFNET. See http://gifnet.ch/test/index2.htm and http://gifnet.ch/test/news.htm Jean DeLagarde From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 05:24:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67CNpu4020534; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 05:23:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67CNmCR020504; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 05:23:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 05:23:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Gas stations closing down? Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 8:23:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050707122333.ZZAV6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Steven Krivit > Thanks Terry - that helps make a connection with what I'm seeing. Kind of you to say so. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 06:00:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67D08xg010982; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 06:00:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67CUMBl024173; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 05:30:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 05:30:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:24:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <2r_FVC.A.S5F.cBSzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is getting most interesting. Moller threads together some ideas derived [perhaps not correctly] from Langmuir and builds a cell. Naudin runs tests on the cell and finds interesting apparently OU heat anomalies. The cell is an ideal black box and we don't get to peek inside to see what is going on, or to test our speculations about what is going on. Also, reading Moller's notes and speculations are one thing, reading the Langmuir paper is another, and Naudin's tests are still another thing, all loosely connected. It can be difficult to keep track of the pea under the moving shells. So far there are several candidates, to wit: 1) Dissociation-recombination, loosely related to the performance of plasma torches. 2) ZPE as the primary energy source for 1) 3) LENR reactions based on creation of a nuclear reactive sites on the filament 4) BLP reactions based on autocatalysis of H as in 2H+H, production of hydrinos, and further catalysis cascades Peter Gluck has made calculations of the total Wh of energy realized from the charge of H with BLP reactions, which are less than claimed by some of Naudin's runs. However, Peter's calculations were first based on H(1/2) as the end product, whereas H(1/11), even H(1/16) have been seen in BLP spectra. In none of these cases was the gas as dense as MAHG, nor were the BLP observations for closed cells. So we may safely speculate that with hydrogen only, in a closed cell, a very large amount of energy could be released by BLP reactions already observed and reported. Yes, these reactions could go to completion, as Peter and Jones have observed, but none of Naudin's runs have gone on long enough to test this. Two hours just isn't enough. Nor are two hours enough to rule out LENR reactions,. which are more energetic than BLP reactions on a per-atom basis. Ed's conjecture assumes the existence of an electrically accelerated plasma. Moller's notes discuss the establishment of a plasma with the shell as anode and the tungsten wire cage as cathode. However, the Naudin experimental setups show no trace of a high voltage supply, only low voltage pulses to the filament from half-wave-rectified 50 Hz or a 12 V battery through a semiconductor switch. BLP has reported intense plasmas from cells using tungsten heaters to dissociate H with the presence K+ ions from dissociated catalysts; these experiments did not show the 2H+H reaction discussed by Phillips in later papers. I am not aware of any BLP paper testing the MAHG conditions. Mills' work has been distant in 'parameter space', but the atomic reactions have been shown. Tungsten at the cited temperatures is a rich electron emitter. Naudin's flow calorimetry is in the right direction, but the energy calculations are based on quite small temperature differentials across the cell. Naudin makes no statement or claim for the accuracy of the temperature differential. His tests for "efficiency" show a large spread for different runs. Thus none of his data are reliable enough, or runs long enough, to test either the LENR or BLP conjectures above. The most recent tests have been with a slower coolant flow and higher delta T, which is good. He has also plotted the delta T with time. The system has significant thermal mass and thermal delays, so when the temperature-time plots show many irregularities, as they do, they point to very large fluctuations going on inside the cell. The Langmuir 1912 paper is based on the observations of the conduction of heat away from heated tungsten wires in various gases. This general subject is of interest in designing incandescent lamps, whose life is extended by inhibiting evaporation of the tungsten wire by a gas fill, but that fill may also cool the wire by conduction, requiring more power to reach incandescence. Above a certain temperature, the conduction of hydrogen increases very rapidly, and Langmuir investigated. Langmuir attributes the increased energy loss to dissociation of the hydrogen at or near the filament surface, convection/conduction away from the surface, and recombination at some greater distance. He lays out a mathematical derivation of the rate of dissociation as a function of temperature, which is plotted in Moller's paper on Langmuir. According to the Langmuir equations, the dissociation rate in the vicinity of 1-2000K is very low, yet the heater in the BLP plasma cells operates in this range. It should be noted that the BLP thermally driven cell is intended only to show the catalysis plasma and was built using available laboratory 'quartzware' as much as possible. Langmuir's calculation does not take into account any catalytic properties of the hot tungsten surface itself, which may have a profound effect on the actual behavior. Naudin shows an increase in efficiency with decreasing drive pulse width. I haven't attempted to estimate how fast the filament will heat up, but it could reach a useful temperature very quickly. So you get a burst of dissociation of H2 molecules at or near the filament surface. The dissociation event is effectively instant, and the dissociated atoms move away. Langmuir poses the question of ionization of the dissociated H atoms, and comes down firmly on the side of no ionization, no plasma. [the BLP plasmas come from different reactions altogether]. Thus there is no merit in investing heating energy beyond a certain point. *IF* recombination yields *excess* energy, then it can occur at the tungsten surface between heating pulses. If this is true, then increasing the repetition rate of short pulses should show changes in the thermal performance of the cell. So far, Naudin has not made such tests to my knowledge. The heat pulses could also launch cascades of BLP H/hydrino catalysis reactions. Such are my thoughts to date. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 06:48:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67DlUCC012537; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 06:47:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67DlLRC012365; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 06:47:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 06:47:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c582f8$111c6120$d0bcfea9 jb4> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 06:30:36 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Carrell" > Yes, these reactions could go to completion, as Peter and Jones have > observed, but none of Naudin's runs have gone on long enough to test this. > Two hours just isn't enough. But its the same cell, Mike, over and over ! He has nearly 100 documented runs now and surely several hundred hours of OU runtime and YET operatingthe parameters of the cell stay the same. With only a few milligrams of H2 as fill - if fusion or hydrino reactions were going on - as Terry and others noticed immediately, even the few micrograms removed are noticeable because the **operating parameters** change. There is no getting around this fact. That is is why Naudin thinks, and surely he is correct on this point, that the hydrogen is reused over and over and nothing is removed. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 07:44:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67EhvAi023737; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:44:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67EhdKY023383; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:43:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:43:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707103114.0443c0c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:38:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Windmill News In-Reply-To: <42CC6CD7.1090401 bellsouth.net> References: <42CC6CD7.1090401 bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >" A California Energy Commission study estimated wind turbines in the >Altamont kill 881 to 1,300 birds of prey a year, including as many as 116 >federally protected golden eagles." It should be noted that coal and nuclear power plants kill millions of birds per year, from steam and smoke. Airports also kill countless numbers. The birds get their revenge however. They cause roughly $300 million in damage to aircraft. See: International Bird Strike Committee. http://www.int-birdstrike.com/ - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 07:53:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67EqgF4031292; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:52:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67EqZeM031208; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:52:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:52:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:52:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050707145212.PSFN11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <_WImZB.A.cnH.yGUzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the Beltline Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are presently looking at Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. Here's a coworker's paper on it if interested: trb.org/publications/circulars/ec058/15_02_Swanson.pdf Well, as so often happens, I opened my big mouth and asked why we don't do something sustainable and altruistic for the vehicles like a hydrogen ICE hybrid. Everyone liked the fact that it would make world news and thought they could get funding from new sources for such. Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:01:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67F0AmF004300; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:00:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67Ehjj0023428; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:43:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:43:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707102454.0443bda0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:31:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Gas stations closing down? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050706171239.028c6848 mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050706171239.028c6848 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2hq5rC.A.mtF.Z-TzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >But the closing down of gas stations? This seems significant. > >Has anyone else noticed this trend and if so, in what part of the country >or planet? I have not noticed, but it would not surprise me. During the first oil crisis in the 1970s hundreds of thousands of gas stations closed. In most states, almost all the remaining ones converted to self service. I think the main reasons are: Gas station profit margins are razor thin, and it is a highly competitive business. Most only stay in business by selling food and sundries. Demand for gas has probably fallen in response to higher prices, and all it takes is a slight drop in business to push many gas stations out of business. Gas stations themselves use a lot of energy. The older ones should be closed down and replaced. In Atlanta, many of the older ones are leaking gasoline into the ground, which is an environmental nightmare. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:09:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67F8INu009882; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:08:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67F8GQG009828; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:08:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:08:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$15u0tas mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,270,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1273001308:sNHT31331182" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:07:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > > From: "Mike Carrell" > > > Yes, these reactions could go to completion, > > as Peter andJones have observed, but none of > > Naudin's runs have gone on long > > enough to test this. Two hours just isn't enough. > > But its the same cell, Mike, over and over ! He > has nearly 100 documented runs now and surely several > hundred hours of OU runtime and YET operatingthe > parameters of the cell stay the same. > > With only a few milligrams of H2 as fill - if fusion or > hydrino reactions were going on - as Terry and others > noticed immediately, even the few micrograms removed are > noticeable because the **operating parameters** change. > There is no getting around this fact. That is is why > Naudin thinks, and surely he is correct on this point, > that the hydrogen is reused over and over and nothing > is removed. > > Jones Regardless of whether Hydrinos exist, as Mike has suggested might still be possible, or not, as Jones has retorted, what seems of paramount interest is to modify the frequency of the pulse AND to take a detailed analysis at the spectra of what is presumed to be the plasma generated within MAHG devices. At present it seems to me that continuing to focus on a 50 hz pulse is a criminally low frequency rate. OTOH, I'll quickly admit that this is a non-educated and totally subjective opinion on my part. Jones has already commented on the fact that the 50 hz cycle is coincidentally the same frequency France uses for A/C running through their national grid. On cannot help but wonder what the hell is going on with that dang number: 50 Hz! The sooner JLN labs (or some successor lab) shows test results using different frequencies (and hopefully much higher frequencies) the better I'll feel about the whole intriguing scenario. At present it remains my personal speculation that the utilization of significantly higher frequency cycles, (including shorter duty cycles, if possible) may help increase OU if it exists, as pertaining to the 2H -> H2 theory, and hopefully by a dramatic amount. Of course, I suspect I'm probably repeating the obvious here. As in blowing into a soda bottle in order to create a tone certain frequencies can create a significant monotone resonance depending on the internal volumetric shape of bottle. As I currently understand this theoretical process, stored "resonance" or energy should be able to be accumulated with an economically modest amount of input energy that in turn would be used to disassociate 2H into its atomic state if the amount of internal volume is clearly understood and calibrated correctly to the proper resonant pulse frequency. Roughly speaking, looking at the size of the current MAHG device, that is, if it were completely hollow and one were to blow into the top of the device (assuming there was a hole!) the tone produced should fall well within the range of the human ear - if the internal gas chamber was filled with normal atmospheric pressure. Roughly speaking, this suggests at least to me a frequency of around 200 - 1000 hz might be a more appropriate optimal "resonant" freq! uency range in which to explore. However, I would imagine that since there are many thingamajigs within the MAHG device (a tungsten filament and coolant transfer piping gumming things up, trying to calculate _the_ optimal internal resonance within the cavity becomes a much more complicated task. Perhaps a form of Finite Element Method Analysis might help in reducing the amount of guesswork involved. Mike, it seems to me that this kind of analysis might actually be up your alley! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:09:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67F8hYI010202; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:08:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67F8YHb010162; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:08:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:08:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dtutoeD/mfuAVLe1u3+PkX9UJ3n7BtvhllfRSdvKGl7q2f0I3qcgoU55eEJ+fOih; Message-ID: <410-220057471480260 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: jonesb9 pacbell.net, knagel@gis.net Subject: Re: The Nature & Role of The Positronium Anion (Electronium) in OU Effects Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:08:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940deaea4c069c571b23fa2135260cf8fe9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.130 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Iteration number 7 or so. It seems likely that Solar/Stellar processes create abundant amounts of Positronium which can pair up with an electron to form the Positronium Anion (Ps -) thus yielding a particle with up to three times the mass of the electron but with a net negative charge the same as that of the electron. The (Ps -) can replace any electron of any atom but with the result that changes the wave function (energy state) of that atom. Further it is believed that external energy sources (photons or strong agitation) can cause metastable storage or stimulated dumping of these energy states, as evidenced by the PAGD, MAHG or the Hydrino etc. The big question; what is the population of these creatures in nature? http://psi-k.dl.ac.uk/newsletters/News_66/newsletter_66.pdf http://pubs.rsc.org/ej/PC/1997/PC093147.pdf Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
Iteration number 7 or so.
 
It seems likely that Solar/Stellar processes create abundant amounts of Positronium which
can pair up with an electron to form the Positronium Anion (Ps -) thus yielding a particle with up
to three times the mass of the electron but with a net negative charge the same as that of the electron.
 
The (Ps -) can replace any electron of any atom but with the result that changes the wave function
(energy state) of that atom.
 
Further it is believed that external energy sources (photons or strong agitation) can cause
metastable storage or stimulated dumping of these energy states, as evidenced by
the PAGD, MAHG or the Hydrino etc.
 
The big question; what is the population of these creatures in nature?
 
 
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:14:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67FDiLX013397; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:13:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67FDa5x013299; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:13:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:13:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707110933.0443e480 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:12:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids In-Reply-To: <20050707145212.PSFN11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050707145212.PSFN11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen? According to the NREL Hydrogen Program Plan, this would be extremely inefficient. Some people here have argued that it would be better than it seems, especially with a hybrid ICE engine. I think a conventional gasoline or diesel hybrid is much more promising. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:20:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67FKCA6017467; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:20:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67FK8Pu017420; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:20:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:20:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c58307$52b1c940$ee027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20050707145212.PSFN11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:19:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1cY-hC.A.-PE.ngUzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Our local county has been providing some "alternate" design concepts to TxDot's new TransTexas Corridor plan for the state ( TxDot's plan includes a 1200 foot wide transportation corridor containing lanes set aside for rail, autos, trucks, busses plus pipeline and electric powerline easements).Our alternate design uses existing rights of way on the freeways. I have the drawings etc. in pdf if you would like me to email you. The alternate concept is based on a " uni-x-rail" that can be adapted to mag-lev and/or electric rail. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 9:52 AM Subject: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids > We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the Beltline > Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are presently looking at > Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. Here's a coworker's paper > on it if interested: > > trb.org/publications/circulars/ec058/15_02_Swanson.pdf > > Well, as so often happens, I opened my big mouth and asked why we don't do > something sustainable and altruistic for the vehicles like a hydrogen ICE > hybrid. Everyone liked the fact that it would make world news and thought > they could get funding from new sources for such. > > > > Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:35:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67FZEpk026570; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:35:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67FZCq9026544; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:35:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:35:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:34:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050707153459.VEVD13045.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > According to the NREL Hydrogen Program Plan, this would be extremely > inefficient. Some people here have argued that it would be better than it > seems, especially with a hybrid ICE engine. I think a conventional gasoline > or diesel hybrid is much more promising. Yes, well, one problem we have for the Beltline Project is establishing a revenue stream. We have lots of choices for diesel electrics already in use in Europe. We were looking for a novel solution which would attract funding from "elsewhere". Ironically, it was a big dream until developer and Gwinnett county chairman Wayne Mason got involved. http://www.beltline.org/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:39:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67FaL94027234; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:39:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67FR0YU021722; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:27:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:27:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:26:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050707152641.YBCR11957.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <1csR7B.A.STF.DnUzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "RC Macaulay" > I have the drawings etc. in pdf if you would like me to email you. Yes, please do to: terry1094 yahoo.com Thanks! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:39:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67FaL96027234; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:39:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67FDi0n013372; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:13:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:13:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=m2WlJ2lh+oH6RWBSCjdpFfF54VzBIfoLdYtTvzPzphbilwErNHeFcjp66bNS54RDYLia/lGcZQEej7eaQ6X0y923wJijv1VUwyUj6pie8HL+dE4uCqlBsZJ1fOprtTvrt4NDn+q/rkCY3cEId1tWQgLAixlTvh9bmvpf64yEUbE= ; Message-ID: <20050707151319.33775.qmail web33305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:13:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050707145212.PSFN11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1155353324-1120749198=:32698" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1155353324-1120749198=:32698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit YES, there is someone powering Large ICE's with Hydrogen. http://www.unitednuclear.com/h2.htm Chris Terry Blanton wrote: We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the Beltline Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are presently looking at Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. Here's a coworker's paper on it if interested: trb.org/publications/circulars/ec058/15_02_Swanson.pdf Well, as so often happens, I opened my big mouth and asked why we don't do something sustainable and altruistic for the vehicles like a hydrogen ICE hybrid. Everyone liked the fact that it would make world news and thought they could get funding from new sources for such. Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1155353324-1120749198=:32698 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
YES, there is someone powering Large ICE's with Hydrogen.
 
Chris

Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the Beltline Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are presently looking at Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. Here's a coworker's paper on it if interested:

trb.org/publications/circulars/ec058/15_02_Swanson.pdf

Well, as so often happens, I opened my big mouth and asked why we don't do something sustainable and altruistic for the vehicles like a hydrogen ICE hybrid. Everyone liked the fact that it would make world news and thought they could get funding from new sources for such.



Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1155353324-1120749198=:32698-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 08:51:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67FoxrZ004175; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:51:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67FoRv1003696; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:50:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:50:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ba01c5830b$8a62b210$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-220057471480260 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: The Nature & Role of The Positronium Anion (Electronium) in OU Effects Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:50:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <3JsO-C.A.b5.D9UzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, "The (Ps -) can replace any electron of any atom but with the result that changes the wave function (energy state) of that atom. Further it is believed that external energy sources (photons or strong agitation) can cause metastable storage or stimulated dumping of these energy states, as evidenced by the PAGD, MAHG or the Hydrino etc." Back a few months ago, when we considered the possibility that the (hypothesized) compound triad lepton particle: electronium (*e-) , when it would be substituing for an electron, could be identical to what Mills was calling hydrino hydride, there was this major problem of size... i.e the glove didn't fit, so we had to aquit... so to speak, unless the triad takes on a much more compact size, as do three quarks (supposedly). Assuming that Ps itself is the same diameter as the Bohr atom - but consists of an electron and a positron (same mass, opposite charge) orbiting round their common center of mass, then there is the huge problem of (*e-) or Ps- (if that is what we are going to call it) being ewven larger - as are all negative ions. Consequently, if the orbital diameter for a hydrino were half the Bohr radius then the (*e-) would actually "not fit" without overlapping the proton itself... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 09:02:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67G2Evd015594; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:02:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67G2C6X015528; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:02:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:02:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:01:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050707160149.GTVY6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Christopher Arnold > YES, there is someone powering Large ICE's with Hydrogen. > > http://www.unitednuclear.com/h2.htm Thanks Chris! For some reason, our idiot firewall software is blocking this site. I have asked our IT folks to clear it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 09:04:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67G436C016793; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:04:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67G3oaB016683; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:03:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:03:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Transit Alert Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:03:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050707160328.GUXH6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We have just been told to shut down all our contracts and send the contractors home. I understand this is for all mass-transit systems in the US. Has anyone heard that they suspect contractors planted bombs in London??? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 09:31:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67GV3kU003176; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:31:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67GUwGJ003104; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:30:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:30:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vTJt5ORA08tw5Q3eCHliqI+IJID3MB9/VikmKhy2RWX80C77Duc7jFUbpcDokQzJ2OU13ncCVCTKWvB+ivC/1152+PYXumuIznwSwYy33zzN04yErWqGpAFXZ2FwcCIx9ZuKS/KGteCiG0Vs2vY2Vi6XgrBhAw06hy2C146m8co= ; Message-ID: <20050707163034.92612.qmail web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:30:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [OT] Transit Alert To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050707160328.GUXH6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1524153642-1120753834=:92042" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1524153642-1120753834=:92042 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The scenario is that of a contract job. Terry Blanton wrote: We have just been told to shut down all our contracts and send the contractors home. I understand this is for all mass-transit systems in the US. Has anyone heard that they suspect contractors planted bombs in London??? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. --0-1524153642-1120753834=:92042 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The scenario is that of a contract job.

Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
We have just been told to shut down all our contracts and send the contractors home. I understand this is for all mass-transit systems in the US.

Has anyone heard that they suspect contractors planted bombs in London???

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. --0-1524153642-1120753834=:92042-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 09:37:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67Gb7sc007027; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:37:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67GaNv1006548; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:36:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:36:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=ViQDy28XOzRQo431qCtA90wslcR6hHegXLjgmyuC1JqaRscHCj6MWejDyL6kUUC/; Message-ID: <410-22005747153555640 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Nature & Role of The Positronium Anion (Electronium) in OU Effects Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:35:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940593b2ffd7e07f3c65a3ba2ffa593ee3b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.26 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Fred, > > "The (Ps -) can replace any electron of any atom but with the > result that changes the wave function (energy state) of that atom. > > Further it is believed that external energy sources (photons or > strong agitation) can cause metastable storage or stimulated > dumping of these energy states, as evidenced by the PAGD, MAHG or > the Hydrino etc." > > Back a few months ago, when we considered the possibility that the > (hypothesized) compound triad lepton particle: electronium (*e-) , > when it would be substituting for an electron, could be identical > to what Mills was calling hydrino hydride, there was this major > problem of size... > I Have no problem with the radius R of the (Ps -) or (*e-) Jones. Corrected for the Compton wavelength 2(pi)R, R =3.86E-13 meters. R = kq^2/E = 2.304E-28/(.511E6*1.6E-19) = 2.81E-15 meters for the electron but the R of the (Ps-) recognized in physics circles or (*e-) which we called Electronium will be slightly larger (loop or quark radius R = twice that of the positron or electron if each loses half their energy as binding energy). The radius R' of the three bound loops or quarks in the nucleus = kq^2/E at 312 MeV per loop/quark = 4.6E-18 meters. Corrected for the Compton wavelength 2(pi)R', R' = 6.32E-16 meters Either way the electron or (*e-) radius is about 612 times that of the nucleus. > > i.e the glove didn't fit, so we had to aquit... so to speak, > unless the triad takes on a much more compact size, as do three > quarks (supposedly). > > Assuming that Ps itself is the same diameter as the Bohr atom - > but consists of an electron and a positron (same mass, opposite > charge) orbiting round their common center of mass, then there is > the huge problem of (*e-) or Ps- (if that is what we are going to > call it) being ewven larger - as are all negative ions. > Wrong assumption. :-) > > Consequently, if the orbital diameter for a hydrino were half the > Bohr radius then the (*e-) would actually "not fit" without > overlapping the proton itself... > Half of 5.29E-11 is Huge compared to 2*2.81E-15 0R 2*3.86E-13 which will allow Hydrino Orbits Radii down to 1/137th the Bohr Radius or Hydrino energy "dumps" of 1,864 eV or more. Frederick > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 10:26:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67HPKr3006375; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:25:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67HPD3P006309; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:25:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:25:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c58318$cd849880$11037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20050707160328.GUXH6485.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [OT] Transit Alert Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:24:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Are you referring to contractors like Spaw-Glass Inc. Contractors of Nashville , now controlled by mideastern group? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:03 AM Subject: [OT] Transit Alert > We have just been told to shut down all our contracts and send the > contractors home. I understand this is for all mass-transit systems in > the US. > > Has anyone heard that they suspect contractors planted bombs in London??? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 10:52:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67Hpq5V027077; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:51:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67HpO7h026756; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:51:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:51:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:50:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Nuenergy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've been corresponding with Bruce Perault, www.nuenergy.org . Last month he sponsored a conference at which he discussed his proposed nuclear battery and Don Smith's circuit which, he claims, captures energy from the Earth's magnetic field. I visited the website again and read the pages on two technologies. I'm wondering what the rest of you think about what is said. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 11:33:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67IV197028233; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:32:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67I3Giw005592; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:03:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:03:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050707151319.33775.qmail web33305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050707151319.33775.qmail web33305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:02:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Urban transport systems Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1091363128==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <66UeGD.A.DXB.j5WzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1091363128==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Terry Blanton wrote: > >We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the >Beltline Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are >presently looking at Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. >Here's a coworker's paper on it if interested: > When I noticed your post that Atlanta is planning a transportation system, I couldn't resist mentioning this. A professor emeritus at the University of Minnesota came up with a novel design for rapid transit. When the state was considering building the light rail transit system I suggested to Governor Dumbell, AKA Jessie Ventura, that he consider it see, www.taxi2000.com . He fulfilled my expectations by ignoring me. --============_-1091363128==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Urban transport systems

Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the Beltline Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are presently looking at Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. Here's a coworker's paper on it if interested:



When I noticed your post that Atlanta is planning a transportation system, I couldn't resist mentioning this. A professor emeritus at the University of Minnesota came up with a novel design for rapid transit. When the state was considering building the light rail transit system I suggested to Governor Dumbell, AKA Jessie Ventura, that he consider it see, www.taxi2000.com . He fulfilled my expectations by ignoring me.
--============_-1091363128==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 11:33:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67IV199028233; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:32:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67HirWA021696; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:44:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:44:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001101c582f8$111c6120$d0bcfea9 jb4> References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60 pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0 NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001101c582f8$111c6120$d0bcfea9 jb4> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:44:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j67HieWW021548 Resent-Message-ID: <-yl6kD.A.pSF.SoWzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Carrell" > >> Yes, these reactions could go to completion, as Peter and >Jones have > > observed, > >With only a few milligrams of H2 as fill - if fusion or >hydrino reactions were going on - as Terry and others >noticed immediately, even the few micrograms removed are >noticeable because the **operating parameters** change. >There is no getting around this fact. That is is why Naudin >thinks, and surely he is correct on this point, that the >hydrogen is reused over and over and nothing is removed. It would seem to me that if what we are seeing is a P + D = He3 reaction, there wouldn't be much loss of volume in the gas. The energy that Naudin is seeing could be accounted for by the reaction of only a few of the trillions of deuterium which would be present in even a few milligrams of H. What is the half life and decay sequence of He3÷ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 11:38:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67Ic9C6002423; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:38:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67Ic5wW002260; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:38:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:38:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 14:38:08 -0400 From: George Holz Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0 geh> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60 pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0 NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob Fickle wrote: > I have " ...attempted to estimate how fast the filament will heat up". > From the description on JLN's web page, I estimate the filament has a > mass of about 1.2g, and would require about 200 Joules to heat from an > average temperature of ~700K to the "operating" temperature of 2000K. > The input during the short pulses is much less than this. I posted this > calculation to JLN about 10 days back, but have no reply as yet. What assumptions did you make to allow the calculation of input power during the pulse? Are the numbers that JLN reports actually average voltage and current as the labels, now changed, on his web site once indicated? If they are, the input power calculations are low by a factor of 1/(duty cycle) or about 20 and the system actually is close to unity. George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 12:02:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67J1iMi018817; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:01:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67J1fHR018789; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:01:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:01:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012301c58326$4280a450$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:01:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob Fickle wrote: " I have " ...attempted to estimate how fast the filament will heat up. From the description on JLN's web page, I estimate the filament has a mass of about 1.2g, and would require about 200 Joules to heat from an average temperature of ~700K to the "operating" temperature of 2000K." I think the mass of the filament is much higher - closer to 10 g. Did you look at the twin-lobed "filament temperature" chart on the bottom of: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/lrtests.htm This indicates to me that the filament is being heated by something other than the electrical current at 5% duty cycle, which must only contribute a small fraction of the total heating (I wonder how that temperature was arrived at - did he use an IR spectrometer? if so that means he probably has other spectroscopy data which is not being shared. "The input during the short pulses is much less than this. I posted this calculation to JLN about 10 days back, but have no reply as yet." Nor will you, most likely. We still do not have a schematic of the wiring, so everything thus far remains little more than supposition. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 12:07:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67J6fXR022297; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:06:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67J6e3j022270; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:06:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:06:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707145136.044526d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:06:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Correction to old post about solar energy in Japan In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050608145408.03ea31e0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050608145408.03ea31e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is part of a message I posted on June 8, 2005: >53,000 new residential systems were installed in 2003 [2], and 70,000 are >expect to be installed this year. [1] I think that is the cumulative total, not the annual total. In other words, as of early this year, 70,000 systems were installed. I mentioned that I saw a new wind turbine near Yanai, Yamaguchi. It was turning vigorously on a day with no wind at sea level. I found a photo of it and brief description in Japanese here: http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/Ckanko/Ck05021801.html This page is part of a tourist attraction guide. Apparently, people like to drive up the mountain to see this turbine and enjoy the "panoramic" view across the Inland Sea. The turbine is 1.5 MW; the biggest in the area. It was installed in November 2004. It is located at the top of a 438-meter mountain (a hill, really). The blades are 70 meters long, made of "glass fiber reinforced plastic." (Fiberglass?) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 13:12:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67KCY1O001102; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:12:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67KCWG0001069; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:12:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:12:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707152044.044403d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:12:14 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Olympic runners versus bicycle riders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7ZbdtC.A.jQ.vyYzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Peachtree Road Race was held on Monday near my house. The course is 10 km, or 6.2 miles. The winner took about 30 minutes. The record for this course is 27 minutes, and I think this is a 10 K world record, or close to it. In other words, the champion runner averaged 14 mph, which is incredible. Wheelchair racers leave 30 minutes before the foot racers. The wheelchair record is 19 minutes, or 20 mph. Here is food for thought. Take any middle-aged person in reasonably good shape, such as my wife. Put her on a bicycle, and she could easily beat the world's fastest runners on this course. (I could probably outrace the fastest wheelchair racer as well.) I am sure of this because we have often ridden in that area so I am familiar with the terrain, and I have accurate bicycle speedometers. They show things such as average speed while in motion. A bicyclist in no great hurry will travel 4 or 6 mph up a steep hill, but coming down the other side she will easily reach 18 to 24 mph, so the average is usually around 12 to 14 mph. If she hustles a bit she can beat the world champion runner. On a long, level, paved surface such as the Silver Comet Trail (http://silvercomet.tripod.com/) it is not difficult to maintain 16 mph for an hour or more. Anyone can go 80 miles in a day (the only problem is saddle soreness the next day), whereas the Olympic marathon race is 26 miles. Tour de France bicycle race racers generally average ~22 mph I think, over gruelling terrain. The record is 31 mph over a 120 mile stage of the race. This demonstrates the incredible mechanical advantage that a bicycle offers. This is why millions of people in Japan, China and other countries depend on bicycles for urban transport. A person + bicycle is the most efficient transportation system on earth, far better than any other animal or mechanical system. Birds are the most efficient animals. A soaring bird or a fish carried along in a river current expends no energy, but this is equivalent to a bicycle traveling downhill the whole way. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 13:31:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67KV9p2012358; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:31:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67KV7mP012334; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:31:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:31:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CD90F0.3060809 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:30:40 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Olympic runners versus bicycle riders References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707152044.044403d0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707152044.044403d0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > This demonstrates the incredible mechanical advantage that a bicycle > offers. This is why millions of people in Japan, China and other > countries depend on bicycles for urban transport. A person + bicycle > is the most efficient transportation system on earth, far better than > any other animal or mechanical system. Birds are the most efficient > animals. A soaring bird or a fish carried along in a river current > expends no energy, but this is equivalent to a bicycle traveling > downhill the whole way. I have one small nit to pick, which is that a soaring bird is not at all equivalent to a bicycle "traveling downhill the whole way". A soaring bird is taking advantage of wind shear to obtain ("free") energy from the atmosphere, which can be used to travel in pretty much whatever direction the bird wants. By soaring, birds (and sail planes, and, in similar fashion, sailboats) can travel long distances in arbitrary directions, including circular paths, with little energy investment. In contrast, a bicyclist coasting downhill or a fish coasting downstream can only go in _one_ direction, and can only travel as far as the bottom of the hill before they have to start putting energy back in. You cannot coast uphill. An albatross, on the other hand, can soar upwind (if the breeze isn't too strong, and if there's horizontal windshear to be had, which there almost always is over the ocean). Coasting downhill is not a "source" of energy, any more than a relaxing spring is a "source" of energy. Soaring while in flight, however, is actually a source of energy for the bird. A soaring bird is like a solar-powered bicycle. As long as the sun holds up, all is well and no pedaling is needed. In contrast, your coasting bicycle is just using energy the rider herself pumped into it, back on the uphill stretch. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 13:42:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67Kff6m019025; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:41:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67KfVaj018894; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:41:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:41:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CD9358.7020906 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:40:56 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Olympic runners versus bicycle riders References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707152044.044403d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42CD90F0.3060809@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <42CD90F0.3060809 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> This demonstrates the incredible mechanical advantage that a bicycle >> offers. This is why millions of people in Japan, China and other >> countries depend on bicycles for urban transport. A person + bicycle >> is the most efficient transportation system on earth, far better than >> any other animal or mechanical system. Birds are the most efficient >> animals. A soaring bird or a fish carried along in a river current >> expends no energy, but this is equivalent to a bicycle traveling >> downhill the whole way. > > > I have one small nit to pick, which is that a soaring bird is not at > all equivalent to a bicycle "traveling downhill the whole way". > > A soaring bird is taking advantage of wind shear to obtain ("free") > energy from the atmosphere, which can be used to travel in pretty much > whatever direction the bird wants. By soaring, birds (and sail > planes, and, in similar fashion, sailboats) can travel long distances > in arbitrary directions, including circular paths, with little energy > investment. In contrast, a bicyclist coasting downhill or a fish > coasting downstream can only go in _one_ direction, and can only > travel as far as the bottom of the hill before they have to start > putting energy back in. You cannot coast uphill. An albatross, on > the other hand, can soar upwind (if the breeze isn't too strong, and > if there's horizontal windshear I mean, if the wind velocity is different at different altitudes (this is rotated 90 degrees from the kind of "wind shear" we usually hear about). I'm not quite sure if it's properly called "vertical" or "horizontal" shear in this case -- the air's moving horizontally but the velocity gradient is vertical. > to be had, which there almost always is over the ocean). > > Coasting downhill is not a "source" of energy, any more than a > relaxing spring is a "source" of energy. Soaring while in flight, > however, is actually a source of energy for the bird. > > A soaring bird is like a solar-powered bicycle. As long as the sun > holds up, all is well and no pedaling is needed. In contrast, your > coasting bicycle is just using energy the rider herself pumped into > it, back on the uphill stretch. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 14:17:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67LH2rP012875; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:17:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67LGv1u012811; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:16:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:16:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707164351.044606b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:16:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Olympic runners versus bicycle riders In-Reply-To: <42CD90F0.3060809 pobox.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707152044.044403d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42CD90F0.3060809 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >I have one small nit to pick, which is that a soaring bird is not at all >equivalent to a bicycle "traveling downhill the whole way". > >A soaring bird is taking advantage of wind shear to obtain ("free") energy >from the atmosphere, which can be used to travel in pretty much whatever >direction the bird wants. By soaring, birds (and sail planes, and, in >similar fashion, sailboats) . . . That's true. I did not mean it quite so literally. I just meant that the energy comes from outside the system, so this is not a fair comparison. For that matter, the Olympic runners must run faster downhill than up. I do not know how much faster. But the difference is nowhere near as large as it is with a bicycle. In other words, most of the energy expended while running is for "overhead" or mechanical friction in the body. Bicycles have two giant advantages: 1. Low friction. Only a small amount of rubber meets the road, and the friction from the chain and wheel bearings is very low. Automobile engines produce far more friction. 2. Air cooling. Because he goes so much faster than a runner, a bicyclist is cooled down by the headwind. This advantage was demonstrated accidentally when researchers tried to test the athletic ability of the famous bicyclist Eddy "Iron Man" Merckx in the 1960s. They hooked up probes and had him ride a stationary bicycle in a clinic. He pooped out hours earlier than normal, and he was covered with sweat. He was upset and the researchers were baffled. It wasn't until later that everyone realized it was because he was not being cooled by the usual 20 mph headwind. A few experimental enclosed bicycles and pedaled aircraft have shields to reduce air resistance, and eliminate this headwind. An athlete can go faster on one of these, but over a long distance he will soon be covered with sweat and weakened by an elevated body temperature. Sweat is an inefficient, last-stage method of cooling the body. I believe the cooling effect of sweat is enhanced when you wear a light cotton shirt, which catches and holds the water near the skin rather than shedding it. Better still to dump a liter of water over the shirt. Contrary to the advice that has been often been published in recent years, you should not drink a lot of water while running or bicycling intensely. Apparently several people who died during marathons lately were killed by drinking too much water (hyponatremia) rather than heatstroke or dehydration as originally thought. The symptoms of hyponatremia and dehydration are similar: "apathy, confusion, nausea, and fatigue." The cause & treatment are exactly opposite but the symptoms look the same! I think a little common sense would help: if you are not thirsty, do not drink. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 14:21:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67LKaws014992; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:20:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67LKYxN014958; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:20:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:20:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <009d01c58339$a71d0a80$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001101c582f8$111c6120$d0bcfea9@jb4> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:49:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Carrell" > > > Yes, these reactions could go to completion, as Peter and > Jones have > > observed, but none of Naudin's runs have gone on long > enough to test this. > > Two hours just isn't enough. > > But its the same cell, Mike, over and over ! He has nearly > 100 documented runs now and surely several hundred hours of > OU runtime and YET operatingthe parameters of the cell stay > the same. Your point is very well taken. I overlooked it, that the same cell, *same charge* is reused for a very extended time. This does put things into a different perspective if Naudin's measurements and reports are indeed accurate. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 14:21:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67LKbVN015014; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:20:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67LKaw1015001; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:20:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:20:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <009e01c58339$a7705aa0$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <4403b0$15u0tas mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:53:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve wrote, > Perhaps a form of Finite Element Method Analysis might help in reducing the amount of guesswork involved. > > Mike, it seems to me that this kind of analysis might actually be up your alley! Steve, I appreciate your confidence, but FEM is heavy duty math, beyond my capability to use.effectively. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 14:26:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67LPr5u018535; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:25:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67LPnTX018468; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:25:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] RE: Urban transport systems Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:25:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050707212534.HIMS13045.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8GA7_.A.XgE.b3ZzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Don Wiegel" > Also worth looking at: > http://www.ruf.dk/ I am familiar with Thomas's Taxi web page; but, this one is news to me. Thanks, Don. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 19:00:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68208xv013439; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 19:00:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j681q7lj009207; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:52:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:52:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:51:14 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Nuenergy Message-ID: <42CDB1E2.17246.7D06B46 localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:57:12 -0300 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 200.180.172.64 X-Return-Path: mark cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:57:13 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 7 Jul 2005 at 12:50, thomas malloy wrote: > I've been corresponding with Bruce Perault, www.nuenergy.org . Last > month he sponsored a conference at which he discussed his proposed > nuclear battery and Don Smith's circuit which, he claims, captures > energy from the Earth's magnetic field. I visited the website again > and read the pages on two technologies. I'm wondering what the rest > of you think about what is said. > I guess nobody have seen a working device from Don Smith. Another scammer... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 21:14:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j684EcPR011438; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:14:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j684EYQj011404; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:14:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:14:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DCF97 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:03:46 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Here in Perth, Western Australia they are powering 3 Public Busses using Hydrogen Fuel Cells as a trial with more to come in the near future. http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/fuelcells/ John Rudiger -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2005 10:52 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the Beltline Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are presently looking at Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. Here's a coworker's paper on it if interested: trb.org/publications/circulars/ec058/15_02_Swanson.pdf Well, as so often happens, I opened my big mouth and asked why we don't do something sustainable and altruistic for the vehicles like a hydrogen ICE hybrid. Everyone liked the fact that it would make world news and thought they could get funding from new sources for such. Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 23:30:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j686UCZ2009278; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:30:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j686UAPF009252; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:30:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:30:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:29:52 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> In-Reply-To: <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0 geh> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:29:52 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j686Tvaa009051 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to George Holz's message of Thu, 07 Jul 2005 14:38:08 -0400: Hi, [snip] >What assumptions did you make to allow the calculation of input >power during the pulse? Are the numbers that JLN reports actually >average voltage and current as the labels, now changed, on his >web site once indicated? If they are, the input power calculations are low >by a factor of 1/(duty cycle) or about 20 and the system actually is close >to >unity. [snip] George is correct. This really needs to be clarified before indulging in any speculation as to the "energy source". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 06:48:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68DlfQF023132; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:47:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68Djuf1022299; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:45:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:45:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=XB5+G8S87l9StRbsnMxpdxWyir8GRqdvXo23iVyRgJN3UgljAL8omNGrVXy+bMtUOT8yc+RNvn8ubMOiN+GYYSfla10tqzBvseLqMO60MvOvNDMHbVyeRGTMnmdocuNcb3RPqxpaXQqUHyENVjmJXq/UERhagUIWf67ZRiU4hj8= ; Message-ID: <20050708134510.12603.qmail web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:45:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Olympic runners versus bicycle riders To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050707164351.044606b0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Having spent a number of years as a councilor at a BSA summer-camp in Kansas, I'm sorry to say that your common-sense approach will not work. Thirst has very little to do with the actual level of body fluids in your system. At camp drinking water is the prescribed treatment for all ailments (except missing limbs) and it works very well 95% of the time. The easiest way to prevent hyponatremia is not to drink water but rather an electrolyte cocktail such as a sports drink. Seasoning your water with a pinch of salt also works pretty well. Also of note, caffeine withdrawl can also mimic dehydration. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > >I have one small nit to pick, which is that a > soaring bird is not at all > >equivalent to a bicycle "traveling downhill the > whole way". > > > >A soaring bird is taking advantage of wind shear to > obtain ("free") energy > >from the atmosphere, which can be used to travel in > pretty much whatever > >direction the bird wants. By soaring, birds (and > sail planes, and, in > >similar fashion, sailboats) . . . > > That's true. I did not mean it quite so literally. I > just meant that the > energy comes from outside the system, so this is not > a fair comparison. > > For that matter, the Olympic runners must run faster > downhill than up. I do > not know how much faster. But the difference is > nowhere near as large as it > is with a bicycle. In other words, most of the > energy expended while > running is for "overhead" or mechanical friction in > the body. > > Bicycles have two giant advantages: > > 1. Low friction. Only a small amount of rubber meets > the road, and the > friction from the chain and wheel bearings is very > low. Automobile engines > produce far more friction. > > 2. Air cooling. Because he goes so much faster than > a runner, a bicyclist > is cooled down by the headwind. This advantage was > demonstrated > accidentally when researchers tried to test the > athletic ability of the > famous bicyclist Eddy "Iron Man" Merckx in the > 1960s. They hooked up probes > and had him ride a stationary bicycle in a clinic. > He pooped out hours > earlier than normal, and he was covered with sweat. > He was upset and the > researchers were baffled. It wasn't until later that > everyone realized it > was because he was not being cooled by the usual 20 > mph headwind. > > A few experimental enclosed bicycles and pedaled > aircraft have shields to > reduce air resistance, and eliminate this headwind. > An athlete can go > faster on one of these, but over a long distance he > will soon be covered > with sweat and weakened by an elevated body > temperature. Sweat is an > inefficient, last-stage method of cooling the body. > I believe the cooling > effect of sweat is enhanced when you wear a light > cotton shirt, which > catches and holds the water near the skin rather > than shedding it. Better > still to dump a liter of water over the shirt. > > Contrary to the advice that has been often been > published in recent years, > you should not drink a lot of water while running or > bicycling intensely. > Apparently several people who died during marathons > lately were killed by > drinking too much water (hyponatremia) rather than > heatstroke or > dehydration as originally thought. The symptoms of > hyponatremia and > dehydration are similar: "apathy, confusion, nausea, > and fatigue." The > cause & treatment are exactly opposite but the > symptoms look the same! I > think a little common sense would help: if you are > not thirsty, do not drink. > > - Jed > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 06:57:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68Dtr83026883; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:55:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68DrNf0025778; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:53:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:53:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 9:52:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050708135232.UMDX18256.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-Se4-C.A.sSG.OVozCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John.Rudiger > Here in Perth, Western Australia they are powering 3 Public Busses using > Hydrogen Fuel Cells as a trial with more to come in the near future. > > http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/fuelcells/ Thanks, John. Any idea what those buses cost? Here in Georgia, upon examining the cost of power to wholesale users, there is actually a time of day (night) when power is free or near so. I know that electrical dissociation of water is inefficient; however, politics being what they are, we have gotten some smiles and raised eyebrows on this idea. BTW, we have something in common with you here in Georgia . . . we were also a debtor/penal colony for the Brits! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 08:33:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68FUH8p011989; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:32:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68EwheW027001; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 07:58:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 07:58:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 07:55:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey, Robin and George... wait a minute---- Naudin apparently incorporated the low duty cycle in his calculations (in a non-standard way) by figuring the "average value" by multiplying the peak voltage (from a 12 volt power DC battery power supply) by the duty cycle to give an average voltage ... However, you now seem to be suggesting that he is off by a factor of 20, because he did this -as if there was no duty cycle? that's ridiculous .... Actually it does seem slightly off as it should be closer to .6 than below .5 but that is not a huge problem and he does say that he checked it with two different meters so the difference is probably due to losses in the solid-state pulse unit. Whether those losses should be attributed to the MAHG or not is an open question, but... it is relatively small. He is using square waves so there is no need for a significant power factor correction. He has a very fast O'scope. How can there be a phasing problem? He is apparently-cross checking at the battery itself - which is a DC reading (at least the battery appears connected to a scope). I think you guys are NOT giving the guy enough credit. For him to be unknowingly putting enough power into the MAHG (the same 100 watts he gets on output), using the low duty cycle, he would need to be drawing approximately 4000 amp pulses from a 120 amp battery ( 5% DC) ... no way !! You (Robin, at least) is willing to accept Mills equally surprising claims - whereas Mills gives almost zero detail, and often bases his P-out claims on guess-timates of what the power would be IF the photon radiation were converted, and yet in comparison, here we have what looks to be very fairly solid readings of "real" power, not Mills' guesstimated power, and yet...you guys are balking because of what, exactly? ....yes, if memory serves, 6 years ago Naudin did follow Bearden's dictates and instructions and reported erroneous power from the MEG - is that what this is about? That was a stupid error, but it was a VERY different situation....give the guy some credit, or please at least let us know exactly why it is that your think the data is off now. I don't see the problem - yet I understand why the 20x figure seems coincidental (and also why the 50 cycle thing seems coincidental) - but surely we can come up with something more than vague innuendo based on being overly influence by Bearden (which is probably why he won't answer mail from the USA)... >>What assumptions did you make to allow the calculation of input >>power during the pulse? Are the numbers that JLN reports >>actually average voltage and current as the labels, now changed, on his web site once indicated? If they are, the input power calculations are low by a factor of 1/(duty cycle) or about 20 and the system actually is close to unity. > George is correct. This really needs to be clarified before > indulging in any speculation as to the "energy source". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 08:44:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68FhiTI024248; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:43:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68Fgoi5023246; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:42:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:42:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lsxfWV4c9VmjuFOpsKs/v3yj6cMJW/CIO8b8IEr5pHns8uMb6Zn8zIsI7uwDdeDS; Message-ID: <410-22005758144247100 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Possible Isolation of "Reactive Hydrogen" for the MAHG Etc? Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:42:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94088bc62cbd1e288bcc47129d77deb5895350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.120 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Auto ionization reaction in water: 2 H2O ---> ( H3O +) + OH - requires a free energy of 335,000 joules per mole or about 3.4 eV per H3O + formed. This and similar phenomena strongly suggests that Zero Point Energy (ZPE) pumping is providing the energy. The ~ 0.1 picosecond lifetime of the H3O+ ion (one in 10 million in water at 25 C or about 10^19 extractable "Reactive Hydrogen" atoms/protons per liter of water ) might lend itself to isolation (from water) by Ion Exchange in zeolites http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2005/June/290601.asp 005: Novel ion-exchange technique for zeolites UK chemists have demonstrated a novel electrochemical method for exchanging ions in zeolites. " The technique can efficiently insert protons and other ions into a range of zeolites under ambient conditions and with minimal impact on the zeolites’ structural integrity. It can also be used as a potentially important analytical tool to measure the rate at which ions diffuse through zeolites, something that is significant for the tailoring of zeolites for specific applications. Zeolites – porous aluminosilicates – are used in a wide range of applications, from simple ion-exchange processes to gas separations and catalysis. Nearly all of these applications depend on the presence of specific ions within the pores of the zeolite framework. Most zeolites are synthesised with sodium ions in the pores; if another ion is required the sodium must be exchanged. This is done by making a slurry of the zeolite in a solution of the ion to be exchanged and applying heat. A certain amount of exchange will occur after which the solution is then refreshed and the process repeated a number of times. ‘This is a relatively crude and inefficient process and it is difficult to monitor how the exchange is progressing,’ said Robert Dryfe, who has been developing the new technique with colleagues at the University of Manchester. ‘Many applications, notably the cracking of hydrocarbons, require the zeolite to contain a proton,’ said Dryfe. ‘Simply trying to exchange the sodium with hydrogen ions by washing the zeolite in an acid is difficult because the acid attacks the aluminium in the zeolite framework, effectively dissolving the structure.’ In this case the exchange must be done with extremely weak acid solutions or by exchanging the sodium initially with ammonium, before driving off ammonia by heating, leaving a proton behind. Proton exchange is currently not feasible for many zeolites. The Manchester team has adopted a different approach, using so-called liquid­­­–liquid electrochemistry, with an organic liquid phase in contact with an aqueous phase. The zeolite is suspended in the aqueous solution, together with the ion that is being exchanged. If this is hydrogen, protons are present in sufficiently small concentrations to form only an extremely weak acid that will not attack the zeolite. The organic phase contains an organic electrolyte to permit conduction, and a sequestering agent that is specific to the ion being removed from the zeolite. Dryfe and colleagues demonstrated the concept by exchanging sodium ions in zeolite Y with protons. The organic solvent in the system was 1,2-dichloroethane, and the sodium-sequestering agent a crown ether. When a small potential difference (tuned to the transfer energy of the ion being removed from the zeolite) is applied across the organic–aqueous interface, sodium ions are preferentially pulled across the interface (because of the lower hydrophobicity of sodium compared to hydrogen, and sodium’s higher affinity for the crown ether), where they are captured by the crown ether and effectively removed from the system. This drives the equilibrium in favour of the hydrogen ions. The tendency will be for the sodium to vacate the zeolite, to be replaced by protons. ‘We have demonstrated a proton exchange rate of 77 per cent with zeolite Y, which is high,’ said Dryfe. The researchers have unpublished x-ray diffraction data to show that the structure of the zeolite remains intact following the electrochemical process. Solid-state NMR has demonstrated that the pores are indeed occupied by protons. ‘We have also conducted preliminary studies on more aluminous zeolites which are especially susceptible to damage by acids during proton exchange,’ said Dryfe. ‘The early results look extremely promising and it appears that this could be a viable means of achieving proton exchange in some of these more delicate zeolites.’ It is possible to monitor the rate and extent of the ion exchange by measuring the currents produced during the process, something that cannot readily be done with the traditional wet chemistry approach. The team has also positioned a membrane of a silicalite zeolite across an organic–aqueous interface and used an electric field to drive ions through the membrane. ‘The membrane acts like an electrified sieve, allowing only sufficiently small ions to pass through,’ Dryfe said. ‘By measuring the current we can monitor the rate of the movement of the ions through the structure. This could be a useful analytical tool for investigating how different ions diffuse through different zeolite structures.’ " Frederick "Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing." -- Albert Einstein ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
The Auto ionization reaction in water:
 
2 H2O --->  ( H3O +)    +   OH - requires a free energy of 335,000 joules per mole
or about 3.4 eV per H3O + formed.
 
This and similar phenomena strongly suggests that Zero Point Energy (ZPE) pumping is
providing the energy.
 
The ~ 0.1 picosecond lifetime of the H3O+ ion (one in 10 million in water at
25  C or about 10^19 extractable "Reactive Hydrogen"  atoms/protons per liter of water )
 might lend itself to isolation (from water) by Ion Exchange in zeolites
 
 
005: Novel ion-exchange technique for zeolites

UK chemists have demonstrated a novel electrochemical method for exchanging ions in zeolites. 

" The technique can efficiently insert protons and other ions into a range of zeolites under ambient conditions and with minimal impact on the zeolites’ structural integrity. It can also be used as a potentially important analytical tool to measure the rate at which ions diffuse through zeolites, something that is significant for the tailoring of zeolites for specific applications.

Zeolites – porous aluminosilicates – are used in a wide range of applications, from simple ion-exchange processes to gas separations and catalysis. Nearly all of these applications depend on the presence of specific ions within the pores of the zeolite framework.

Most zeolites are synthesised with sodium ions in the pores; if another ion is required the sodium must be exchanged. This is done by making a slurry of the zeolite in a solution of the ion to be exchanged and applying heat. A certain amount of exchange will occur after which the solution is then refreshed and the process repeated a number of times.

‘This is a relatively crude and inefficient process and it is difficult to monitor how the exchange is progressing,’ said Robert Dryfe, who has been developing the new technique with colleagues at the University of Manchester.

‘Many applications, notably the cracking of hydrocarbons, require the zeolite to contain a proton,’ said Dryfe. ‘Simply trying to exchange the sodium with hydrogen ions by washing the zeolite in an acid is difficult because the acid attacks the aluminium in the zeolite framework, effectively dissolving the structure.’

In this case the exchange must be done with extremely weak acid solutions or by exchanging the sodium initially with ammonium, before driving off ammonia by heating, leaving a proton behind. Proton exchange is currently not feasible for many zeolites.

The Manchester team has adopted a different approach, using so-called liquid­­­–liquid electrochemistry, with an organic liquid phase in contact with an aqueous phase. The zeolite is suspended in the aqueous solution, together with the ion that is being exchanged. If this is hydrogen, protons are present in sufficiently small concentrations to form only an extremely weak acid that will not attack the zeolite.

The organic phase contains an organic electrolyte to permit conduction, and a sequestering agent that is specific to the ion being removed from the zeolite. 

Dryfe and colleagues demonstrated the concept by exchanging sodium ions in zeolite Y with protons. The organic solvent in the system was 1,2-dichloroethane, and the sodium-sequestering agent a crown ether.

When a small potential difference (tuned to the transfer energy of the ion being removed from the zeolite) is applied across the organic–aqueous interface, sodium ions are preferentially pulled across the interface (because of the lower hydrophobicity of sodium compared to hydrogen, and sodium’s higher affinity for the crown ether), where they are captured by the crown ether and effectively removed from the system.

This drives the equilibrium in favour of the hydrogen ions. The tendency will be for the sodium to vacate the zeolite, to be replaced by protons.

‘We have demonstrated a proton exchange rate of 77 per cent with zeolite Y, which is high,’ said Dryfe.

The researchers have unpublished x-ray diffraction data to show that the structure of the zeolite remains intact following the electrochemical process. Solid-state NMR has demonstrated that the pores are indeed occupied by protons.

‘We have also conducted preliminary studies on more aluminous zeolites which are especially susceptible to damage by acids during proton exchange,’ said Dryfe. ‘The early results look extremely promising and it appears that this could be a viable means of achieving proton exchange in some of these more delicate zeolites.’

It is possible to monitor the rate and extent of the ion exchange by measuring the currents produced during the process, something that cannot readily be done with the traditional wet chemistry approach.

The team has also positioned a membrane of a silicalite zeolite across an organic–aqueous interface and used an electric field to drive ions through the membrane. ‘The membrane acts like an electrified sieve, allowing only sufficiently small ions to pass through,’ Dryfe said. ‘By measuring the current we can monitor the rate of the movement of the ions through the structure. This could be a useful analytical tool for investigating how different ions diffuse through different zeolite structures.’ "
 
Frederick
 
"Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing." -- Albert Einstein
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 08:50:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68Fncqd029879; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:49:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68FkJLT026756; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:46:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:46:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005601c583d3$f84a1570$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "vortex-l" References: <410-22005758141646340 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Possible Isolation of "Reactive Hydrogen" for the MAHG Etc? Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:44:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, The Auto ionization reaction in water: 2 H2O ---> ( H3O +) + OH - requires a free energy of 335,000 joules per mole or about 3.4 eV per H3O + formed. Hmmm....3.4 eV .... the signature of ZPE, it would seem..... kinda like the smile of the Cosmic-Cheshire-Cat... eh, Lewis? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 09:38:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68Gbg52006499; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:37:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68Gbc4H006437; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:37:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:37:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708123419.043c4130 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:36:12 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Progress in synthetic meat production Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3208 This technology is coming along faster than I thought it would. This could be very good news. See my book, chapter 16. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 10:17:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68HHHXx004478; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:17:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68HH5mU004294; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:17:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:17:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=bvuvRSmu8P3ndArnVzk1ZDnVJ/DuiBquxCHE+omcl3QCRT/TZL3DZwqwxGIQoQn5; Message-ID: <410-22005758161654540 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Possible Isolation of "Reactive Hydrogen" for the MAHG Etc? Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:16:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bb4a808dd634dc585ff2a08daedab1e7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.79 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones. I wrote: > > The Auto ionization reaction in water: > 2 H2O ---> ( H3O +) + OH - requires a free energy of 335,000 joules per mole > or about 3.4 eV per H3O + formed. > This and similar phenomena strongly suggests that Zero Point Energy (ZPE) pumping is > providing the energy. > The ~ 0.1 picosecond lifetime of the H3O+ ion (one in 10 million in water at > 25 C or about 10^19 extractable "Reactive Hydrogen" atoms/protons per liter of water ) > might lend itself to isolation (from water) by Ion Exchange in zeolites > According to this sparsity of "Reactive Hydrogen Species" ( RHS) in pure water ZPE pumping would take about 6 hours to raise the temperature of a liter of water 1.0 degrees K. OTOH, if the ZPE is pushing it's energy up a Metastable Ladder there will be no sensible heat evident until "agitation" or stimulated metastable dumping of the RHS occurs. "Heat After Death" effect in electrolysis cells? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones.
 
I wrote:
>
> The Auto ionization reaction in water:
 
> 2 H2O --->  ( H3O +)    +   OH - requires a free energy of 335,000 joules per mole
> or about 3.4 eV per H3O + formed.
 
> This and similar phenomena strongly suggests that Zero Point Energy (ZPE) pumping is
> providing the energy.
 
> The ~ 0.1 picosecond lifetime of the H3O+ ion (one in 10 million in water at
> 25  C or about 10^19 extractable "Reactive Hydrogen"  atoms/protons per liter of water )
 > might lend itself to isolation (from water) by Ion Exchange in zeolites
>
According to this sparsity of "Reactive Hydrogen Species" ( RHS) in pure water
ZPE pumping would take about 6 hours to raise the temperature of a liter of
water 1.0 degrees  K.
OTOH, if the ZPE is pushing it's energy up a Metastable Ladder there will be no
sensible heat evident until "agitation" or stimulated metastable dumping of the RHS occurs.
 
"Heat After Death" effect in electrolysis cells?
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 10:32:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68HUG3m015733; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:31:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68HE6OH001651; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:14:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:14:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:08:44 -0400 From: George Holz Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0 geh> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60 pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0 NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0 geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, You wrote: > Hey, Robin and George... wait a minute---- > > Naudin apparently incorporated the low duty cycle in his > calculations (in a non-standard way) by figuring the "average > value" by multiplying the peak voltage (from a 12 volt power DC > battery power supply) by the duty cycle to give an average voltage > ... However, you now seem to be suggesting that he is off by a > factor of 20, because he did this -as if there was no duty cycle? > that's ridiculous .... The problem is not that the duty cycle is incorporated in the voltage calculation. It is that it appears to be incorporated in both the voltage calculation and the current calculation. Both I and V were marked as average readings in earlier versions of the graphs on JLN's site. When it is incorporated in both readings by averaging it multiplies the resulting input power by (.05)^2 rather than the correct single (.05). To get the right answer we must average the peak power by applying the duty cycle factor only once. The average power in a pulsed system is not equal to V(avg)*I(avg). Using this incorrect method shows that a resistor is 20 times overunity at .05 duty factor. (snip) > He is using square waves so there is no need for a significant > power factor correction. He has a very fast O'scope. How can there > be a phasing problem? He is apparently-cross checking at the > battery itself - which is a DC reading (at least the battery > appears connected to a scope). Apparently you think that our objection is related to a power factor or phasing problem. No, it appears to be a pure calculation error. If JLN would clearly specify peak or average readings for his measured values any confusion would be eliminated. In pulsed power situations this is required information. > I think you guys are NOT giving the guy enough credit. I think he deserves great credit. This is an excellent experiment. But we all make mistakes sometimes and for those not familiar with pulsed power measurements this is not an obvious mistake. > > For him to be unknowingly putting enough power into the MAHG (the > same 100 watts he gets on output), using the low duty cycle, he > would need to be drawing approximately 4000 amp pulses from a 120 > amp battery ( 5% DC) ... no way !! Actually 166 A (peak)* 12 V(peak) * .05 (duty factor) gives about 100 watts input at an average current of about 8 A and an average voltage of .6 V. > > You (Robin, at least) is willing to accept Mills equally > surprising claims - whereas Mills gives almost zero detail, and > often bases his P-out claims on guess-timates of what the power > would be IF the photon radiation were converted, and yet in > comparison, here we have what looks to be very fairly solid > readings of "real" power, not Mills' guesstimated power, and > yet...you guys are balking because of what, exactly? I cannot find any errors in Mills' power measurements that could reasonably create errors as large as the overunity output that he measures. JLN's control runs are all high duty cycle runs and thus there is no protection from duty cycle related systematic calculation errors. > ....yes, if memory serves, 6 years ago Naudin did follow Bearden's > dictates and instructions and reported erroneous power from the > MEG - is that what this is about? That was a stupid error, but it > was a VERY different situation....give the guy some credit, or > please at least let us know exactly why it is that your think the > data is off now. The MEG measurements were much more difficult due to the high frequency and high voltage combination. I think that JLN made a good attempt to get accurate readings on the MEG. > > I don't see the problem - yet I understand why the 20x figure > seems coincidental (and also why the 50 cycle thing seems > coincidental) - but surely we can come up with something more than > vague innuendo based on being overly influence by Bearden (which > is probably why he won't answer mail from the USA)... Perhaps I failed to make my earlier observations on the MAHG list clear enough. I have done pulse power measurements in so many prior experiments and the possible error was so clear to me that I thought it would be obvious to everyone. George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 10:59:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68Hwf1E003208; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:58:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68HwTei003120; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:58:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:58:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Progress in synthetic meat production Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:58:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050708175807.FPIH17541.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Soylent green is . . . :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 11:17:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68I98Dj011755; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:14:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68Hunqx002305; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:56:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:56:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:44:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George, > Actually 166 A (peak)* 12 V(peak) * .05 (duty factor) gives > about > 100 watts input at an average current of about 8 A > and an average voltage of .6 V. OK, now I see what you are saying but how does an auto battery provide 166 amps, even if it is peak? Is this what you really think is really happening ? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 11:17:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68I98Dl011755; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:14:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68HftL1024762; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:41:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:41:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708133358.043b3800 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:41:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Progress in synthetic meat production In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708123419.043c4130 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708123419.043c4130 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a good semi-technical introduction to the field: http://www.new-harvest.org/img/files/Invitro.pdf Many practical problems must be overcome, but it sounds like they are making progress. For example: "Benjaminson and others succeeded in using a serum-free medium made from maitake mushroom extract that achieved higher rates of growth than fetal bovine serum. And it has recently been shown that lipids such as sphingosine-1-phosphate can replace serum in supporting the growth and differentiation of embryonic tissue explants." Elsewhere on the web site it says there are only a few research groups in the world working on this. A few groups -- even though this technology may someday feed billions of people, reduce greenhouse gas by a fifth, and eliminate the slaughter of billions of farm animals per year. Ah, but we are spending $9 billion this year on the anti-missile defense system! At least one person involved in these projects has attempted to culture her own flesh to be used as meat. It is bound to happen sooner or later. See: A. C. Clarke, "Food of the Gods." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 11:24:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68INPoh022669; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:23:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68INHal022448; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:23:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:23:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <031f01c583e7$39490d20$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> From: "jonfli" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:02:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, > George, > > > Actually 166 A (peak)* 12 V(peak) * .05 (duty factor) gives > > about > > 100 watts input at an average current of about 8 A > > and an average voltage of .6 V. > > OK, now I see what you are saying but how does an auto battery > provide 166 amps, even if it is peak? Is this what you really > think is really happening ? > > Jones CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) ratings of typical automotive 12 volt batteries today are in the range of 500-1,000 amps. This is the current the battery can supply for 30 seconds at 0 degrees F and still maintain 1.2 volts per cell. The 166 amp peak at 5% duty cycle would be a piece of cake for these batteries. Jon F -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 7/8/2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 11:32:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68IVUnI028637; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:31:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68IVR9g028575; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:31:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:31:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CEC661.2040603 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:30:57 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > George, > >> Actually 166 A (peak)* 12 V(peak) * .05 (duty factor) gives about >> 100 watts input at an average current of about 8 A >> and an average voltage of .6 V. > > > OK, now I see what you are saying but how does an auto battery provide > 166 amps, even if it is peak? The short answer is "easily". Running a starter motor, (at least some) automobile batteries can provide several hundred amps. If you need high current for a short time, a car battery is a pretty good choice. But if you're running bus bars from the battery, be careful not to let your ring cross power and ground; you'll get a very hot finger if you do! At 166 amps, the battery voltage won't be 12 volts, of course, since the internal resistance is certainly not zero. But apparently Naudin was measuring voltage continuously so the battery's internal drop isn't an issue. > Is this what you really think is really happening ? I don't have an opinion on Naudin's work, but WRT a car battery as a power source, this doesn't sound unreasonable. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 11:33:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68IUNG2028008; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:31:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68I6Fq4008963; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:06:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:06:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CEC045.70502 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:04:53 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Debian/1.7.8-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Progress in synthetic meat production References: <20050708175807.FPIH17541.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050708175807.FPIH17541.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Soylent green is . . . > >:-) > > Hey, what's your objection here? Recycling is a _good_ thing, right? ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 11:33:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68IWBBM029118; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:32:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68IVtJu028926; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:31:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:31:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: MAHG update Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:31:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The site has been updated with radiation measurements: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2e.htm Exec summary: NADA so it is doubtful that anything nuclear is going on in the sense of LENR. However, I hope that we can get some kind of quick confirmation that his P-in is accurate... that would mean an analog measurement showing a fractional amp AT THE BATTERY itself, I presume. Otherwise, as George suggests - there is nothing to it, unless.... One other troubling issue is that you have both a duty cycle of less than 5% and also a pulse rate of ~50 Hz; the two not being exactly compatible in timing so how are they determined- is one layered on the other? If there is an acceptable resoltuion to this it will probably be in that, or in an analog current measurement taken at the battery itself. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 11:33:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68IUNG4028008; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:32:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68I8O5t011110; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:08:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:08:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ae01c583e7$f8d01e40$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:07:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi George, One more thing... > OK, now I see what you are saying but how does an auto battery > provide 166 amps, even if it is peak? Is this what you really > think is really happening ? IF he is getting a reading at the battery itself - of about 1/3+ amp average current - then you would agree that the claimed 5 watt input was accurate, correct? This is something that should be pretty easy to ascertain right away... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 12:02:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68J0EDK014567; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:01:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68Iq8YB009606; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:52:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:52:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404qh$15objcc mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,274,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1267060108:sNHT19365044" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: Progress in synthetic meat production Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:51:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > > >Terry Blanton wrote: > > >Soylent green is . . . > > > >:-) > > > > > Hey, what's your objection here? > Recycling is a _good_ thing, right? > > ;-) > Maybe it's time to go home. E. G. Robinson really did have a great send off. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 12:12:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68JBeBl021377; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:11:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68JBZQk021235; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:11:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:11:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:11:41 -0400 From: George Holz Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00fe01c583f0$dfab43a0$6401a8c0 geh> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60 pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0 NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0 geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0 NuDell> <00ae01c583e7$f8d01e40$6801a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, > > OK, now I see what you are saying but how does an auto battery > > provide 166 amps, even if it is peak? Is this what you really > > think is really happening ? It certainly looks possible. Batteries are capable of surprisingly high peak currents and the pulse width here is only 1 ms. Auto batteries are designed to provide currents of over 200 A for the starter motor during freezing conditions. The loading would explain the lower than expected average voltage readings. > > IF he is getting a reading at the battery itself - of about 1/3+ > amp average current - then you would agree that the claimed 5 > watt input was accurate, correct? Yes > This is something that should be pretty easy to ascertain right > away... > George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 12:13:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68JD4tj022453; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:13:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68JCxFv022370; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:12:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:12:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:12:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050708191233.JQBP17541.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9bPZfB.A.MdF.4AtzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > This is something that should be pretty easy to ascertain right > away... I was under the impression that the values on his chart were rms (root mean square) since that's what the Fluke measures. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 12:19:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68JIxLq025898; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:19:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68JFfLa023896; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:15:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:15:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Progress in synthetic meat production Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:15:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050708191517.JUFL17541.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > > > > >Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > >Soylent green is . . . > > > > > >:-) > > > > > > > > Hey, what's your objection here? > > Recycling is a _good_ thing, right? > > > > ;-) > > > > Maybe it's time to go home. > > E. G. Robinson really did have a great send off. Well, he should've got laid first. (layed? leyed?) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 12:32:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68JULCN003052; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:31:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68JLvXn028795; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:21:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010b01c583f2$385201f0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00ae01c583e7$f8d01e40$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00fe01c583f0$dfab43a0$6401a8c0@geh> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:21:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0108_01C583B7.8B42C5B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <8ue2nC.A.eBH.RJtzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C583B7.8B42C5B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi George, Not wanting to waste anymore bandwidth on this device than is necessary, = if it is not OU, I sent the following message to intereseted parties, = which I hope gets to JNL or to Nicholas Moller very soon - as they are = difficult to contact directly. COPY of posting: A serious question has been raised about the accuracy of the MAHG=20 power measurement, i.e. the P-in measurement, and I hope that if=20 Sterling Allan, or anyone else reading this, has ongoing contact=20 with J.L. Naudin, that we can get a prompt answer. Better yet, if=20 Nicholas Moller could address the question, and also the issue of=20 his expectations concerning replication of the experiment, it=20 would be very helpful. As George Holz has suggested, the problem is not just that the=20 duty cycle is incorporated into the voltage calculation in order=20 to give the low average voltage BUT that it also appears to have=20 been incorporated in both the voltage calculation and the current=20 calculation at the same time - in effect, Naudin seems to be=20 underestimating the actual power by a factor of 20 (the reciprocal=20 of the duty cycle). Both I and V were marked as average readings in earlier versions=20 of the graphs on JLN's site. When it is incorporated in both=20 readings by averaging it multiplies the resulting input power by=20 (.05)^2 rather than the correct single (.05). To get the right=20 answer we must average the peak power by applying the duty cycle=20 factor only once. The average power in a pulsed system is not equal to = V(avg)*I(avg). Using this incorrect method shows that a resistor is 20 = times overunity at .05 duty factor. An easy resolution to this problem is IF he will take a reading at=20 the battery itself, preferably with an analog ammeter, during the=20 tube operation, and IF he is getting about 1/3+ amp, average=20 current being drawn at the battery - then most would agree that=20 the claimed ~5 watt input is accurate. Otherwise, we are left with=20 lingering doubts. Actually, as George mentions a 166 A (peak)* 12 V(peak) * .05=20 (duty factor) gives about 100 watts input at an average current of=20 about 8 A and an average voltage of .6 V. This would be the same as = 100=20 watts in and 100 watts out, which is what would be expected in the=20 case where there is zero excess energy. Unfortunately, although George did mention this earlier, he did=20 not make this crystal clear. He says: "Perhaps I failed to make my=20 earlier observations on the MAHG list clear enough. I have done=20 pulse power measurements in so many prior experiments and the=20 possible error was so clear to me that I thought it would be=20 obvious to everyone." We are all hoping that some prompt resolution can be made of this=20 apparent problem. Jones Beene ------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C583B7.8B42C5B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi George,
 
Not wanting to waste anymore bandwidth = on this=20 device than is necessary, if it is not OU, I sent the = following=20 message to intereseted parties, which I hope gets to JNL or to Nicholas = Moller=20 very soon - as they are difficult to contact directly. COPY of=20 posting:
 
A serious question has been raised = about the=20 accuracy of the MAHG
power measurement, i.e. the P-in measurement, = and I=20 hope that if
Sterling Allan, or anyone else reading this, has = ongoing=20 contact
with J.L. Naudin, that we can get a prompt answer. Better = yet, if=20
Nicholas Moller could address the question, and also the issue of =
his=20 expectations concerning replication of the experiment, it
would be = very=20 helpful.

As George Holz has suggested, the problem is not just = that the=20
duty cycle is incorporated into the voltage calculation in order =
to give=20 the low average voltage BUT that it also appears to have
been = incorporated=20 in both the voltage calculation and the current
calculation at the = same time=20 - in effect, Naudin seems to be
underestimating the actual power by = a factor=20 of 20 (the reciprocal
of the duty cycle).

Both I and V were = marked as=20 average readings in earlier versions
of the graphs on JLN's site. = When it is=20 incorporated in both
readings by averaging it multiplies the = resulting input=20 power by
(.05)^2 rather than the correct  single (.05). To get = the=20 right
answer we must average the peak power by applying the duty = cycle=20
factor only once. The average power in a pulsed system is not equal = to=20 V(avg)*I(avg). Using this incorrect method shows that a resistor is 20 = times=20 overunity at .05 duty  factor.

An easy resolution to this = problem is=20 IF he will take a reading at
the battery itself, preferably with an = analog=20 ammeter, during the
tube operation, and IF he is getting about 1/3+ = amp,=20 average
current being drawn at the battery - then most would agree = that=20
the claimed ~5 watt input is accurate. Otherwise, we are left with=20
lingering doubts.

Actually, as George mentions a 166 A = (peak)* 12=20 V(peak) * .05
(duty factor) gives about 100 watts input at an = average=20 current of
about 8 A and an average voltage of   .6 V. = This would=20 be the same as 100
watts in and 100 watts out, which is what would = be=20 expected in the
case where there is zero excess=20 energy.

Unfortunately, although George did mention this earlier, = he did=20
not make this crystal clear. He says: "Perhaps I failed to make my=20
earlier observations on the MAHG list clear enough. I have done =
pulse=20 power measurements in so many prior experiments and the
possible = error was=20 so clear to me that I thought it would be
obvious to = everyone."

We=20 are all hoping that some prompt resolution can be made of this =
apparent=20 problem.

Jones Beene

------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C583B7.8B42C5B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 12:42:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68Jf5Xg010654; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:41:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68Jf2KX010605; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:41:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:41:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:40:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050708194046.LKLY17541.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > From: "Jones Beene" > > > This is something that should be pretty easy to ascertain right > > away... > > I was under the impression that the values on his chart were rms (root mean square) since that's what the Fluke measures. http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm Half way down, it clearly states "RMS". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 13:02:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68K0mPj024713; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:01:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68JigjE013517; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:44:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:44:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CED7B0.5040706 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:44:48 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG update References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This test does not prove that LENR is not occurring. LENR does not produce detectable radiation outside of the cell. The only radiation of any significance has only been detected within the cell. In addition, such a counter would not detect radiation from tritium nor neutron emission. Until the effect is tested with D2 enhanced H2, no demonstrated conclusion is possible about the source of extra energy. I'm surprised that so much energy is devoted to speculated when simple changes in experimental conditions would answer all the questions. Ed Jones Beene wrote: > The site has been updated with radiation measurements: > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2e.htm > > Exec summary: NADA so it is doubtful that anything nuclear is going on > in the sense of LENR. > > However, I hope that we can get some kind of quick confirmation that his > P-in is accurate... that would mean an analog measurement showing a > fractional amp AT THE BATTERY itself, I presume. > > Otherwise, as George suggests - there is nothing to it, unless.... > > One other troubling issue is that you have both a duty cycle of less > than 5% and also a pulse rate of ~50 Hz; the two not being exactly > compatible in timing so how are they determined- is one layered on the > other? > > If there is an acceptable resoltuion to this it will probably be in > that, or in an analog current measurement taken at the battery itself. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 13:32:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68KVxun013008; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:32:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68KVs3I012961; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:31:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:31:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: MAHG Construction Question Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:31:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050708203141.OMOV17541.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See the mechanical drawings: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/diagram.htm which show the assembly. Note that this is what we EEs call a two port (terminal) device. The tungsten grid is connected to one port and the center rod appears to be connected to the other. But is the upper grid support connected to the center rod? Is there a ME in the house? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 14:00:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68L04uQ028877; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:00:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68KaaQV015781; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:36:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:36:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:36:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, Your are correct and I was too hasty in saying that LENR had been eliminated as a factor. I'm having a low batting average today it seems. > This test does not prove that LENR is not occurring. LENR does > not produce detectable radiation outside of the cell. The only > radiation of any significance has only been detected within the > cell. Yes. and BTW, what is the highest energy signal which you have detected within the cell? Are you finding soft x-rays in the cell? > Until the effect is tested with D2 enhanced H2, no demonstrated > conclusion is possible about the source of extra energy. I'm > surprised that so much energy is devoted to speculated when > simple changes in experimental conditions would answer all the > questions. Yes, especially since Naudin has used D2 in other work. Maybe it is on his list (along with a few other details ;-) One suspects that he is a very busy man with this and his other projects ... ...and IF he should have an adequate answer to the P-in power measurement question which George Holz has raised, and IF that rather amazing COP of 20 is accurate, then at some point, we may find that he will become less-keen to share his results than he has in the past. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 14:53:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68LrMJ4027946; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:53:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68LrJfe027910; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:53:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:53:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <035501c58404$a67ef180$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> From: "jonfli" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:33:15 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FWIW, another reality check for the input power consumed by the MAHG is to first calculate the energy in Joules per pulse and multiply by the rep rate. IE, the input energy is 166 * 12 * (1/50) * .05 = 1.992J per pulse. Therefore, the input power = 1.992 * 50 = 99.6 watts. With the equipment JLN has at his disposal, I would assume the peak current measurement, duty cycle and line frequency, are all within 5%. Jon F -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 7/8/2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 15:11:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j68MB6ik007272; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:11:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j68MB2dW007176; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:11:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:11:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01c101c58409$e045f3a0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <035501c58404$a67ef180$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:10:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C583CF.3374AAC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C583CF.3374AAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jon, > FWIW, another reality check for the input power consumed by the MAHG = is to > first calculate the energy in Joules per pulse and multiply by the rep = rate. > IE, the input energy is 166 * 12 * (1/50) * .05 =3D 1.992J per pulse. > Therefore, the input power =3D 1.992 * 50 =3D 99.6 watts. With the = equipment JLN > has at his disposal, I would assume the peak current measurement, duty = cycle > and line frequency, are all within 5%. As Terry mentioned, on the original page http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm He says that he measures rms volts times rms amps and gets real power. ....and he says he does it with THREE different meters, analog ammeter = included!! ERGO.... He must surely measure at the battery itself, no? Why wouldn't he - = cheap and effective. That is supposed to be the real beauty of using a = battery PS in the first place.... so why not take full advantage? You = seem to be saying that he would have missed this simple expedient... but = that seems unlikely to me. However we will not know for sure, unless we get some response. = Hopefully it will be soon. I suspect that there are several people = making plans now for a replication. ....how hard can it be to just put an analog ammeter on the battery - = and then nobody can complain about a claim of 4-5 watts P-in, right ? = If and when, or course, you are showing 400 milliamps or thereabouts on = the ammeter... or maybe I should ask Steve Lawrence IF this is where the = internal resistance of the battery might be a major factor? At any rate, I just cannot believe he would have overlooked this = measurement with his ammeter.OTOH it _has_ been a bad day... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C583CF.3374AAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jon,
 
> FWIW, another reality check for = the input=20 power consumed by the MAHG is to
> first calculate the energy in = Joules=20 per pulse and multiply by the rep rate.
> IE, the input energy is = 166 * 12=20 * (1/50) * .05 =3D 1.992J per pulse.
> Therefore, the input power = =3D 1.992 *=20 50 =3D 99.6 watts. With the equipment JLN
> has at his disposal, I = would=20 assume the peak current measurement, duty cycle
> and line = frequency, are=20 all within 5%.
 
As Terry=20 mentioned, on the original page
 http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm

= He says that he measures rms volts = times rms amps=20 and gets real power.
....and he says he does it with THREE different = meters,=20 analog ammeter included!!
 
 ERGO....
 
He must surely=20 measure at the battery itself, no? Why wouldn't he - cheap and = effective. That=20 is supposed to be the  real beauty of using a battery PS in the = first=20 place.... so why not take full advantage? You seem to be saying = that he=20 would have missed this simple expedient... but that seems unlikely to=20 me.
 
However we will=20 not know for sure, unless we get some response. Hopefully it will be = soon. I=20 suspect that there are several people making plans now for a=20 replication.

....how hard can it be to just put an analog ammeter on = the =20 battery - and then nobody can complain about a claim of 4-5 watts P-in, = right=20 ?  If and when, or course, you are showing 400 milliamps or=20 thereabouts on the ammeter... or maybe I should ask Steve = Lawrence IF this=20 is where the internal resistance of the battery might be a major = factor?
 
At any rate, I just cannot believe he would have overlooked this=20 measurement with his ammeter.OTOH it _has_ been a bad day...
 
Jones 
------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C583CF.3374AAC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 17:16:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j690G6Gh010492; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:16:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j690G3h6010442; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:16:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:16:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <2024be55-0fd8-4574-8b06-30d9c63652d2> Message-ID: <011901c5841b$57c21dd0$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:03:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <2Fyi7.A.3iC.BdxzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones is making good points, but > You (Robin, at least) is willing to accept Mills equally > surprising claims - whereas Mills gives almost zero detail, and > often bases his P-out claims on guess-timates of what the power > would be IF the photon radiation were converted, and yet in > comparison, here we have what looks to be very fairly solid > readings of "real" power, not Mills' guesstimated power, and > yet...you guys are balking because of what, exactly? I think you are not reading Mills carefully enough, in context, with respect to specific experiments. When I see energy claims, say in the first H-He plasma paper, there is no fudging to a careful reader -- and that was followed by further experiments using five calorimetric techniques, ending in the water bath calorimetry which is very, very clean and specific. Naudin's flow calorimetry can be of the same kind of reliability as the water bath approach, and McKubre used flow calorimetry for his excellect CF experiments. Naudin has not yet stated the calibration quality of his temperature measurements, and Mills has. > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 18:05:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69154ax002849; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:05:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69150S0002782; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:05:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:05:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220057691450775 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.0.129.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday July 8, 2005 Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:04:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d801148f85906bfeca3927d2034c4f13a14e7a3108705b577b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.233.114.124 Resent-Message-ID: <0uERnD.A.ar.7KyzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: aki ix.netcom.com Date: 7/8/2005 1:28:11 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday July 8, 2005 WHAT’S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 8 Jul 05 Washington, DC 1. POLITICAL SCIENCE: IS THE CONGRESSMAN DOING CLIMATE STUDIES? Who among us has not engaged in disputes over research findings? Disagreements between researchers are a normal part of the scientific process. The success and credibility of science is anchored in the willingness of scientists to make their data and methods available to other scientists for independent testing. Openness is a sacred obligation. However, three > scientists, who have had their share of such disputes, recently received letters from Representative Joe Barton (R-TX), chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, demanding complete records, going back 10 years, of their paleoclimate work, including computer codes and a list of all studies on which they were authors and the source of funding – by next Monday. Their climate studies, which support global warming, figured prominently in the 2001 report of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. It seems unlikely that Rep Barton plans to repeat their studies; his record of support for environmental legislation is 0%. Barton is, however, among the top recipients of campaign contributions from the oil and gas industry, and the aggressive tone of his letters sounds to most scientists like an effort to intimidate. 2. WHAT’S IN A NAME? A SUGGESTED PUBLIC NAME CHANGE FOR APS. When APS first opened a tiny Washington Office in 1984, it said “American Physical Society” on the door. I ran into a lawyer who had an office on the same floor, “You’re the Physical Society guy aren’t you? I’d like to come by and talk to you; I need to lose about 20 pounds.” I stepped back and looked him over, “closer to 40 I’d say.” In any case, our name causes confusion. It would have been better if it had been done 100 years ago, but it’s not going to get any easier, so the Executive Board voted unanimously to poll the membership changing the public name of the society to American Physics Society. So far, about 75% favor the change. 3. IDENTITY THEFT: HIDING FROM THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT. The 1966 Freedom of Information Act was a tribute to the self-confidence of our nation. No other nation has anything like it. But agencies hate it, and keep finding new loopholes that have to be plugged, http://www.bobpark.org/WN94/wn090294.html. Last week, the Federation of American Scientists filed a lawsuit charging that the National Reconnaissance Office has been hiding unclassified budget records by invoking the “operational files” exemption. “Operational files” refers to records that document how foreign intelligence is collected, which these files aren’t. 4. CATHOLICS TOO! ARCHBISHOP FINDS A LITTLE INTELLIGENT DESIGN. In yesterday’s New York Times, Cardinal Schoenborn, editor of the official Catechism, rejected John Paul II’s supposed acceptance of neo-Darwinism when he said evolution was “more than just a hypothesis.” Schoeborn goes on to quote Pope Benedict XVI, “We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution.” Well, that’s it, if we believe in science we’re on our own. On the other hand, the Church’s position is evolving. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A;=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 12:11:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67JAW3V025129; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:10:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67JASbj025054; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:10:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:10:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200507071910.j67JAIeE024825 ultra5.eskimo.com> Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: RE: Urban transport systems Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:10:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Thread-Index: AcWDI4p1/z21KV1NRTqw+qWjkoXxQgAA4FVw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: Also worth looking at: http://www.ruf.dk/ A Dual Mode Transport System ________________________________ From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com] Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:03 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Urban transport systems Terry Blanton wrote: We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the Beltline Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are presently looking at Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. Here's a coworker's paper on it if interested: When I noticed your post that Atlanta is planning a transportation system, I couldn't resist mentioning this. A professor emeritus at the University of Minnesota came up with a novel design for rapid transit. When the state was considering building the light rail transit system I suggested to Governor Dumbell, AKA Jessie Ventura, that he consider it see, www.taxi2000.com . He fulfilled my expectations by ignoring me. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 11:19:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67IJ2rS019190; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:19:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67IIu99019100; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:18:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:18:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CD71FC.8030203 comcast.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:18:36 -0500 From: Bob Fickle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6S-gQB.A.LqE.NIXzCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: I have " ...attempted to estimate how fast the filament will heat up". From the description on JLN's web page, I estimate the filament has a mass of about 1.2g, and would require about 200 Joules to heat from an average temperature of ~700K to the "operating" temperature of 2000K. The input during the short pulses is much less than this. I posted this calculation to JLN about 10 days back, but have no reply as yet. Mike Carrell wrote: >This is getting most interesting. Moller threads together some ideas derived >[perhaps not correctly] from Langmuir and builds a cell. Naudin runs tests >on the cell and finds interesting apparently OU heat anomalies. The cell is >an ideal black box and we don't get to peek inside to see what is going on, >or to test our speculations about what is going on. > >Also, reading Moller's notes and speculations are one thing, reading the >Langmuir paper is another, and Naudin's tests are still another thing, all >loosely connected. It can be difficult to keep track of the pea under the >moving shells. > >So far there are several candidates, to wit: > >1) Dissociation-recombination, loosely related to the performance of plasma >torches. >2) ZPE as the primary energy source for 1) >3) LENR reactions based on creation of a nuclear reactive sites on the >filament >4) BLP reactions based on autocatalysis of H as in 2H+H, production of >hydrinos, and further catalysis cascades > >Peter Gluck has made calculations of the total Wh of energy realized from >the charge of H with BLP reactions, which are less than claimed by some of >Naudin's runs. However, Peter's calculations were first based on H(1/2) as >the end product, whereas H(1/11), even H(1/16) have been seen in BLP >spectra. In none of these cases was the gas as dense as MAHG, nor were the >BLP observations for closed cells. So we may safely speculate that with >hydrogen only, in a closed cell, a very large amount of energy could be >released by BLP reactions already observed and reported. > >Yes, these reactions could go to completion, as Peter and Jones have >observed, but none of Naudin's runs have gone on long enough to test this. >Two hours just isn't enough. > >Nor are two hours enough to rule out LENR reactions,. which are more >energetic than BLP reactions on a per-atom basis. Ed's conjecture assumes >the existence of an electrically accelerated plasma. > >Moller's notes discuss the establishment of a plasma with the shell as anode >and the tungsten wire cage as cathode. However, the Naudin experimental >setups show no trace of a high voltage supply, only low voltage pulses to >the filament from half-wave-rectified 50 Hz or a 12 V battery through a >semiconductor switch. > >BLP has reported intense plasmas from cells using tungsten heaters to >dissociate H with the presence K+ ions from dissociated catalysts; these >experiments did not show the 2H+H reaction discussed by Phillips in later >papers. I am not aware of any BLP paper testing the MAHG conditions. Mills' >work has been distant in 'parameter space', but the atomic reactions have >been shown. Tungsten at the cited temperatures is a rich electron emitter. > >Naudin's flow calorimetry is in the right direction, but the energy >calculations are based on quite small temperature differentials across the >cell. Naudin makes no statement or claim for the accuracy of the temperature >differential. His tests for "efficiency" show a large spread for different >runs. Thus none of his data are reliable enough, or runs long enough, to >test either the LENR or BLP conjectures above. > >The most recent tests have been with a slower coolant flow and higher delta >T, which is good. He has also plotted the delta T with time. The system has >significant thermal mass and thermal delays, so when the temperature-time >plots show many irregularities, as they do, they point to very large >fluctuations going on inside the cell. > >The Langmuir 1912 paper is based on the observations of the conduction of >heat away from heated tungsten wires in various gases. This general subject >is of interest in designing incandescent lamps, whose life is extended by >inhibiting evaporation of the tungsten wire by a gas fill, but that fill may >also cool the wire by conduction, requiring more power to reach >incandescence. Above a certain temperature, the conduction of hydrogen >increases very rapidly, and Langmuir investigated. Langmuir attributes the >increased energy loss to dissociation of the hydrogen at or near the >filament surface, convection/conduction away from the surface, and >recombination at some greater distance. He lays out a mathematical >derivation of the rate of dissociation as a function of temperature, which >is plotted in Moller's paper on Langmuir. > >According to the Langmuir equations, the dissociation rate in the vicinity >of 1-2000K is very low, yet the heater in the BLP plasma cells operates in >this range. It should be noted that the BLP thermally driven cell is >intended only to show the catalysis plasma and was built using available >laboratory 'quartzware' as much as possible. Langmuir's calculation does not >take into account any catalytic properties of the hot tungsten surface >itself, which may have a profound effect on the actual behavior. > >Naudin shows an increase in efficiency with decreasing drive pulse width. I >haven't attempted to estimate how fast the filament will heat up, but it >could reach a useful temperature very quickly. So you get a burst of >dissociation of H2 molecules at or near the filament surface. The >dissociation event is effectively instant, and the dissociated atoms move >away. Langmuir poses the question of ionization of the dissociated H atoms, >and comes down firmly on the side of no ionization, no plasma. [the BLP >plasmas come from different reactions altogether]. > >Thus there is no merit in investing heating energy beyond a certain point. >*IF* recombination yields *excess* energy, then it can occur at the >tungsten surface between heating pulses. If this is true, then increasing >the repetition rate of short pulses should show changes in the thermal >performance of the cell. So far, Naudin has not made such tests to my >knowledge. > >The heat pulses could also launch cascades of BLP H/hydrino catalysis >reactions. > >Such are my thoughts to date. > >Mike Carrell > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 12:00:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j67J0FLp017958; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:00:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j67Ih3I4005991; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:43:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:43:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42CD77A5.2040701 comcast.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:42:45 -0500 From: Bob Fickle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Moller on Langmuir References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> In-Reply-To: <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0 geh> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: I've made no assumption regarding input power, except to comment that it's not enough to heat the filament- based solely on the specific heat of tungsten.  To supply 200 Joules in a 10-ms pulse, for example, would require a power of 20 KW.  Ain't happening.

George Holz wrote:
Bob Fickle wrote:

  
I have " ...attempted to estimate how fast the filament will heat up".
 From the description on JLN's web page, I estimate the filament has a
mass of about 1.2g, and would require about 200 Joules to heat from an
average temperature of  ~700K to the "operating" temperature of 2000K.
The input during the short pulses is much less than this.  I posted this
calculation to JLN about 10 days back, but have no reply as yet.
    

What assumptions did you make to allow the calculation of input
power during the pulse? Are the numbers that JLN reports actually
average voltage and current as the labels, now changed, on his
web site once indicated? If they are, the input power calculations are low
by a factor of 1/(duty cycle) or about 20 and the system actually is close
to
unity.

George Holz
Varitronics Systems
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 20:12:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j693C487008545; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:12:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j693C13l008506; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:12:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:12:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: bbaylor tampabay.rr.com (Brad) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 03:11:51 GMT Reply-To: bbaylor tampabay.rr.com Message-ID: <42d53cd0.366570593 smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com> References: <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <035501c58404$a67ef180$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <01c101c58409$e045f3a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <01c101c58409$e045f3a0$6801a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j693BrDs008238 Resent-Message-ID: <4R8V2D.A.vEC.BC0zCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:10:39 -0700, you wrote: >how hard can it be to just put an analog ammeter on the battery Naudin states he uses an "Analog Voltmeter and Ammeter with a high current shunt." It's trickier than you would think because that analog ammeter and shunt still has to pass 166 A with minimal voltage drop, and yet have a reasonably accurate indication at 400 mA. With an appropriate shunt to go full scale at 166 A, the needle will barely move at 400 mA. And analog meters tend to be inaccurate at low scale readings. You could use a 500 or so mA at full scale ammeter and a big capacitor (one side to ground) after the meter. Add a big inductor between the meter and cap for a touch more accuracy. And nothing wrong with putting a scope across a low ohm shunt and measuring the pulse and calculating the power. Unless you miscalculate... Brad From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 8 21:17:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j694HNJd005478; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:17:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j694HLhp005458; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:17:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:17:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050709041710.00958274 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 05:17:10 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: The BEAP hypothesis. Resent-Message-ID: <-Ki6h.A.DVB.Q_0zCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been trying to organise my ideas on the inverse of temperature (which I have called Compreture) seen as a differential pressure and tying it in with volume so that the classic PV/T is a constant can be viewed as a hierarchical string of pressures - or more fundamentally hierarchical strains. Also, I have borne in mind the physical analogy of the BRS work on concrete where we manipulated ersatz Beta-aether (B-a) pressures and noted their effects on the failure of concrete specimens. I'm afraid I haven't got to the stage where the perfect is no longer the enemy of the good, or even of the very mediocre 8-( - but I have "seen" something which is worth putting forward - not as a theory cos it doesn't have the necessary foundations so let's call it an hypothesis 8-) - more specifically, the B-a Electric Atmospheric Pressure (BEAP) hypothesis. Consider two electric pressure environments. The environment outside a metal which we might describe as the ambient electric pressure environment, and the pressure within a metal, which we might describe as the vacuum electric pressure environment. The situation is completely analogous to the Alpha-atmospheric (A-a) pressure environment. The ambient atmospheric pressure is 14.7 pounds per square inch (psi). Any pressure below 14.7 psi is a vacuum of some degree. If the "absolute" A-a pressure within an air tight container full of ball bearings is 10 psi then we may think of this pressure in terms of a 4.7 psi vacuum, or a 10 psi "absolute" A-a pressure. If we set up a "false" zero for atmospheric pressure (analogous to the false zero for centigrade temperature) then an absolute A-a pressure of 20_psi, say is seen as a positive pressure of 5.3_psi and an absolute A-a pressure of 10_psi is seen as a negative pressure of 4.7_psi. Now a metal has two B-a environments, an external electric pressure environment and an internal B-a electric pressure environment. The external electric pressure environment is analogous to the ambient A-a. If we take this ambient pressure as a datum then an electron is at a positive pressure and a proton is at a negative pressure in relation to that datum. Unfortunately, long ago the electron was arbitrarily assigned a negative sign for its electric charge and the proton a positive sign which doesn't help. And I'm afraid it ain't possible to change them over now with causing horrendous confusion. One will just have to think of negative charges as being at positive B-a electric pressure, i.e. above external ambient, and positive charges as being at negative B-a electric pressure, i.e. below external ambient. To put some arbitrary numbers on things..... ......if B-a environmental ambient absolute electric pressure is 100 units of electric pressure. then a negative charge is at 120 units of absolute electric pressure. and a positive charge is at 80 units of absolute electric pressure. So an electron is at higher pressure than ambient and a proton is at lower pressure than ambient. Now the repulsion between like charges can be seen as measure of the offset of these absolute pressures from the ambient absolute pressure. In the case of the external electric pressure outside a metal these offsets are equal. In the above example the positive charge offset is 20 units and the negative charge offset is also 20 units. Consequently, the repulsive force between like high pressure negative charges is the same as the repulsive force between low pressure positive charges. However inside a metal the absolute B-a electric pressure is lower than outside. Let us say that inside metallix it is 90 units of absolute pressure. Then the offset pressure for negative charge will have increased from 20 to 30 units whereas the offset pressure for positive charge will have decreased from 20 to 10 units. Thus the repulsion for particles with a single negative charge will now be three times as great as the repulsion between particles with a single positive charge. Note, the absolute electric pressures of the particles has not changed. It is the environmental pressure which has changed. This change in environmental electric pressure between the inside and the outside of metallix has changed the offset pressures and consequently changed the repulsion between like charges. Like charges still repel each other but not by the same amount. The practical implication for Cold Fusion is that the Coulomb barrier for Protons is lower inside a metal than it is outside. Obviously, if this hypothesis is correct then many phenomenal will begin to be more intelligible than they are at present. Apart from CF I can only think of one off hand, namely the mobility of electrons inside a metal. If the repulsive force between electrons has increased then it seems reasonable that they would be more mobile. Also, since it has been suggested that under certain circumstances the force between electrons can actually be attractive rather than repulsive (Shoulders' charge clusters) the BEAP hypothesis that like charge repulsive forces can be different for different environments would seem to be more of a theoretical interpolation rather than an extrapolation. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 06:12:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69DBuh4007160; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:12:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69DBsmO007143; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:11:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:11:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c58487$bc1855d0$0101a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: References: <20050707145212.PSFN11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 14:11:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My memory says BMW have in Alpha site mode engines up to 7 Ltrs displacement ( about 420 Cu Ins for the cousins) Has anyone heard of the problems of fueling standaard ICE on Hydrogen ? Embrittlement of liners and valves etc ? Rgds to all Noel Whitney Quantum leap Ltd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 3:52 PM Subject: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids > We are studying a small rail system for inner Atlanta called the Beltline > Project. The type of vehicle is wide open and we are presently looking at > Innorail recently implemented in Bordeaux, Fr. Here's a coworker's paper > on it if interested: > > trb.org/publications/circulars/ec058/15_02_Swanson.pdf > > Well, as so often happens, I opened my big mouth and asked why we don't do > something sustainable and altruistic for the vehicles like a hydrogen ICE > hybrid. Everyone liked the fact that it would make world news and thought > they could get funding from new sources for such. > > > > Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen? > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 06:56:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69Du7n3028221; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:56:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69Du0qu028124; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:56:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:56:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=tYzHdduUU/jOMb0a+SQhGI6lfzCaGURBBfIzehg95lb+nRAWZsBmH5MiY65etpP9; Message-ID: <410-22005769125521490 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:55:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c691d23b7f7b79054a4d4e6010501f3c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.85 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII JLN's W Filament 2.5E-4 meter dia x 0.100 meter long Area = (pi)R^2 x L = 4.9E-9 meter^2 Resistance at 27 K = 0.122 ohms Resistance at 500 K = 0.203 ohms Resistance at 1,000 K = 0.508 ohms Resistance at 2,000 K = 1.13 ohms Temp K w/m^2 Ohm-Meters Amp/Meter^2 % H Atoms 27.00 -- - - 0.60E-7 - - - - - - 500 100 1.0E-7 - - - - - - - 1000 6,000 2.5E-7 - - - - - - 1500 55,200 4.04E-7 < 1.0E-3 - - - 2000 240,400 5.67E-7 1.00 0.1 2500 698,000 7.4E-7 5,000 1.60 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

JLN's  W Filament  2.5E-4 meter dia x 0.100 meter long
 
Area = (pi)R^2 x L   =    4.9E-9 meter^2
 
Resistance at 27 K  =   0.122 ohms
 
Resistance at 500 K =  0.203  ohms
 
Resistance at 1,000 K  =  0.508 ohms
 
Resistance at 2,000 K    =   1.13  ohms
 
 
Temp  K            w/m^2         Ohm-Meters          Amp/Meter^2       % H Atoms
 
27.00                   -- - -            0.60E-7                         - - -                         - - -
 
500                      100               1.0E-7                          - - - -                      - - -
 
1000                    6,000             2.5E-7                        - -  -                       - - -
 
1500                  55,200             4.04E-7                  < 1.0E-3                   - - -
 
2000                240,400             5.67E-7                    1.00                            0.1
 
2500                698,000             7.4E-7                        5,000                        1.60
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 07:27:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69EQj5q011106; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:26:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69EQhMl011085; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:26:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:26:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=br5rJ9Qz7ScvUN9q0SGzcX8GeKML/g47bMN5TipU2LcbpLrqD09Pf3r2PNP//cWY; Message-ID: <410-22005769132658450 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG update (Correction) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:26:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409090a5af6160a7be19f597f7696fd8b6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.81 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Oops. Couldn't figure why the radiated power was 3 milliwatts at 2500 K . It should be about 53 watts. Frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 7/9/05 8:56:12 AM Subject: Re: MAHG update JLN's W Filament 2.5E-4 meter dia x 0.100 meter long Area = (pi)R^2 x L = 4.9E-9 meter^2 Correction: Area = (pi)D x L = 7.85E-7 meter^2 Resistance at 27 K = 0.122 ohms Resistance at 500 K = 0.203 ohms Resistance at 1,000 K = 0.508 ohms Resistance at 2,000 K = 1.13 ohms Temp K w/m^2 Ohm-Meters Amp/Meter^2 % H Atoms 27.00 -- - - 0.60E-7 - - - - - - 500 100 1.0E-7 - - - - - - - 1000 6,000 2.5E-7 - - - - - - 1500 55,200 4.04E-7 < 1.0E-3 - - - 2000 240,400 5.67E-7 1.00 0.1 2500 698,000 7.4E-7 5,000 1.60 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
Oops.  Couldn't figure why the radiated power was 3 milliwatts at 2500 K . 
It should be about 53 watts.
 
Frederick
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 7/9/05 8:56:12 AM
Subject: Re: MAHG update

JLN's  W Filament  2.5E-4 meter dia x 0.100 meter long
 
Area = (pi)R^2 x L   =    4.9E-9 meter^2
 
Correction:  Area = (pi)D x L = 7.85E-7 meter^2
 
Resistance at 27 K  =   0.122 ohms
 
Resistance at 500 K =  0.203  ohms
 
Resistance at 1,000 K  =  0.508 ohms
 
Resistance at 2,000 K    =   1.13  ohms
 
 
Temp  K            w/m^2         Ohm-Meters          Amp/Meter^2       % H Atoms
 
27.00                   -- - -            0.60E-7                         - - -                         - - -
 
500                      100               1.0E-7                          - - - -                      - - -
 
1000                    6,000             2.5E-7                        - -  -                       - - -
 
1500                  55,200             4.04E-7                  < 1.0E-3                   - - -
 
2000                240,400             5.67E-7                    1.00                            0.1
 
2500                698,000             7.4E-7                        5,000                        1.60
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 07:34:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69EYFnt014482; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:34:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69EYC5F014444; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:34:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <042301c58490$1153f880$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> From: "jonfli" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <035501c58404$a67ef180$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <01c101c58409$e045f3a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:11:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, You wrote- >Jon, [snip my stuff] >As Terry mentioned, on the original page http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm >He says that he measures rms volts times rms amps and gets real power. >....and he says he does it with THREE different meters, analog ammeter included!! >ERGO.... >He must surely measure at the battery itself, no? Why wouldn't he - cheap and effective. That is supposed to be the real >beauty of using a battery PS in the first place.... so why not take full advantage? You seem to be saying that he would have >missed this simple expedient... but that seems unlikely to me. >However we will not know for sure, unless we get some response. Hopefully it will be soon. I suspect that there are several >people making plans now for a replication. >....how hard can it be to just put an analog ammeter on the battery - and then nobody can complain about a claim of 4-5 >watts P-in, right ? If and when, or course, you are showing 400 milliamps or thereabouts on the ammeter... or maybe I >should ask Steve Lawrence IF this is where the internal resistance of the battery might be a major factor? >At any rate, I just cannot believe he would have overlooked this measurement with his ammeter.OTOH it _has_ been a bad >day... >Jones After reading thru all Naudin's MAHG tests, I've come to the conclusion that his input power measurements are taken at the tungsten filament. He is not measuring at the power source itself which would yield much higher input power figures and this is what is leading to the confusion. IOW, POWER INPUT = FILAMENT CURRENT(RMS) * FILAMENT VOLTAGE (RMS) which is the RMS power input to the device. This is OK however because in a real world application, the power to the filament(s) could be supplied by a switching supply or an energy shuttle which would typically run at an efficiency of 95% or so. Also, the average input power consumption would less than the RMS thus actually improving the COP's if his output power measurements are accurate. Jon F ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 7/8/2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 08:03:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69F2qKP031923; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:02:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69F2nxB031895; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:02:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:02:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <043201c58494$64450bc0$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> From: "jonfli" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <035501c58404$a67ef180$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <01c101c58409$e045f3a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <042301c58490$1153f880$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:42:11 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: After reading my last post I can see that my point is not entirely clear. IMO, Naudin's voltage measurents are taken directly at the filament connections on the MAHG tube assembly thus neglecting any voltage drops thru the connecting leads to the supply source. Jon F -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 7/8/2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 08:11:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69FAcIx002800; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:10:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69FAaXE002774; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:10:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:10:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004c01c58498$52e85360$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <035501c58404$a67ef180$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <01c101c58409$e045f3a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <042301c58490$1153f880$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <043201c58494$64450bc0$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:10:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jon, > After reading my last post I can see that my point is not > entirely clear. > IMO, Naudin's voltage measurents are taken directly at the > filament > connections on the MAHG tube assembly thus neglecting any > voltage drops thru > the connecting leads to the supply source. ...and reading between the lines, then - it seems that you think that he has neglected the simple expedient of confirming this power input reading, by placing an ammeter at the battery itself? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 08:16:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69FFkAU004784; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:15:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69FFixR004758; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:15:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:15:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=CaPR0URttualtj1ZEzRL1tGYzSYWKiP0oW9eauLMfVrKcwexQnPQAJN0JMYkW6y66e1Ueq2+X+P9JH83onIZV69PDMqaw/QwOsaYn7Wq2gUkZ1EklmaRfsf352enw6XZOUWOisFxe3M6D5MJ67RIFE1xsKY66nqf3vSPEsn/26U= ; Message-ID: <20050709151530.78230.qmail web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:15:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: USA Government has Secured 35,068 patents To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <043201c58494$64450bc0$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-335368821-1120922130=:77708" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-335368821-1120922130=:77708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A search of issued patents reveals the assignment of 35,068 wonderful patents to the "United States." Engines, anthrax, HIV prevention and Radar absorber are just a few of the wonderful things you will never see at Walmart. Your tax dollar is hard at work - hiding all the good stuff. Included is an atomic hydrogen motor 3,670,494 that operates like the MAHG but sounds more like the original Gray motor which, if my understanding is correct - used expanding Plasma to drive the pistons. If this is true - Gray may have actually based his motor on this patent. In any case - as far as I am concerned, Gray was still a genius. Follow the complete link are see for yourself http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=United+States&FIELD1=ASNM&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt Chris Arnold http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-335368821-1120922130=:77708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
A search of issued patents reveals the assignment of 35,068 wonderful patents to the "United States." Engines, anthrax, HIV prevention and Radar absorber are just a few of the wonderful things you will never see at Walmart. Your tax dollar is hard at work - hiding all the good stuff.
 
Included is an atomic hydrogen motor 3,670,494 that operates like the MAHG but sounds more like the original Gray motor which, if my understanding is correct - used expanding Plasma to drive the pistons. If this is true - Gray may have actually based his motor on this patent. In any case - as far as I am concerned, Gray was still a genius.
 
Follow the complete link are see for yourself
 
 

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-335368821-1120922130=:77708-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 09:20:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69GJjk3010735; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:19:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69GJdJ6010663; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:19:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:19:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008501c584a1$f6b2a0f0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <035501c58404$a67ef180$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <01c101c58409$e045f3a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42d53cd0.366570593@smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:19:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad" > It's trickier than you would think because that analog ammeter > and > shunt still has to pass 166 A with minimal voltage drop Well it is not necessary to cover the whole range of baterry capability when the testing amp range for the MAHG at low duty. It is much narrower. Here is what I had in mind - a three range unit, very inexpensive - the purpose being ONLY to confirm that the other digital readings are not way out of line. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4678&item=7518795991&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V Naudin probably has several scattered around the lab. Not as sexy as that way-cool scope, but it is pretty hard to fool an old ammeter. Some time ago (the Joe Newman era, everyone agreed that this was the way to go for determining spikey input - I hope that this notion hasn't changed) .... nothing could be more embarassing, from the stanpoint of having a great-looking experiment and web-page - to find out you have made a 20-1 error - especially when all you had to do to catcvh it well in advance, was have a $20 meter handy. BTW has anyone figured out how to get rid of that annoying red advertisement on the JNL page, short of turning off Java? The Firefox Ad-block applet doesn't see it. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 09:24:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69GNspT012866; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:24:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69GNnNj012815; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:23:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:23:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04fd01c5849f$b932ae20$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> From: "jonfli" To: References: <20050706195034.MTO11273.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050706164326.04449b60@pop.mindspring.com> <005901c58276$fd4163c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <003901c582ef$96e21240$b658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42CD71FC.8030203@comcast.net> <00ba01c58323$05beede0$6401a8c0@geh> <003d01c583cd$13ed4ba0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00b901c583df$b3091630$6401a8c0@geh> <009d01c583e4$b95d78a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <00bb01c583eb$3d0024e0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <42CED7B0.5040706@ix.netcom.com> <015c01c583fc$b09ec6c0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <035501c58404$a67ef180$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <01c101c58409$e045f3a0$6801a8c0@NuDell> <042301c58490$1153f880$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <043201c58494$64450bc0$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> <004c01c58498$52e85360$6801a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:03:18 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, > Jon, > > > After reading my last post I can see that my point is not > > entirely clear. > > IMO, Naudin's voltage measurents are taken directly at the > > filament > > connections on the MAHG tube assembly thus neglecting any > > voltage drops thru > > the connecting leads to the supply source. > > > ...and reading between the lines, then - it seems that you think > that he has neglected the simple expedient of confirming this > power input reading, by placing an ammeter at the battery itself? Basically yes. Specifically, the current sensing probe or resistor could be placed anywhere in the leads from the supply source, but the voltage sensing leads appear to be placed at the filament connections rather than the battery terminals. Otherwise, his input voltage measurement values make no sense at all but I could be missing something! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 7/8/2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 09:58:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69GwJxq030908; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:58:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69GwGGM030886; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:58:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:58:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c584a7$5c26f8f0$ca037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re. The BEAP hypothesis Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:57:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C5847D.727F9730" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C5847D.727F9730 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C5847D.727F9730" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C5847D.727F9730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote.. >The situation is completely analogous to=20 the Alpha-atmospheric (A-a) pressure=20 environment. The ambient atmospheric=20 pressure is 14.7 pounds per square inch=20 (psi). Any pressure below 14.7 psi is a=20 vacuum of some degree. =20 =20 Unfortunately, long ago the electron was=20 arbitrarily assigned a negative sign for=20 its electric charge and the proton a=20 positive sign which doesn't help. And I'm=20 afraid it ain't possible to change them=20 over now with causing horrendous=20 confusion. One will just have to think=20 of negative charges as being at positive=20 B-a electric pressure, i.e. above=20 external ambient, and positive charges as=20 being at negative B-a electric pressure,=20 i.e. below external ambient. =20 I like the way Frank thinks. Way back in my salad days a like question = arose regarding " accurate" flow measurement. There ain't no such = animal. Every measurement is " differential" measurement including the = fallacy of 14.7 PSIA.=20 Richard=20 ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C5847D.727F9730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

Grimer wrote..

>The situation is completely analogous to
the = Alpha-atmospheric (A-a)=20 pressure
environment. The ambient atmospheric
pressure is 14.7 = pounds=20 per square inch
(psi). Any pressure below 14.7 psi is a
vacuum = of some=20 degree.  
 
Unfortunately, long ago the electron = was=20
arbitrarily assigned a negative sign for
its electric charge and = the=20 proton a
positive sign which doesn't help. And I'm
afraid it = ain't=20 possible to change them
over now with causing horrendous =
confusion. One=20 will just have to think
of negative charges as being at positive =
B-a=20 electric pressure, i.e. above
external ambient, and positive charges = as=20
being at negative B-a electric pressure,
i.e. below external=20 ambient.
 
I like the way Frank thinks. Way back in my = salad=20 days a like question arose regarding " accurate" flow measurement. There = ain't=20 no such animal. Every measurement is " differential" = measurement including=20 the fallacy of 14.7 PSIA. 

Richard 

------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C5847D.727F9730-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C5847D.727F9730 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c584a7$5b371ab0$ca037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C5847D.727F9730-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 12:06:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69J5jkK029520; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:05:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69J5hip029498; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:05:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:05:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050709190531.0096252c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:05:31 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The BEAP hypothesis Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I found this article by Bearden rather interesting both in relation the MAHG and the idea that.... ----------------------------------------------- the "static" EM field must be more correctly regarded as in Van Flandern's analogy of a sort of "perfect waterfall", whose total form appears static, but with that "static envelope" made of internal parts in continuous motion, with each part moving out of any position noted and being replaced by the part behind it. ----------------------------------------------- ....a view which is concordant with the BEAP hypothesis in that it treats charge as a dynamic entity in a state of flux rather than a static entity with the fixity of the Laws of the Medes and Persians. ============================================= THE ATOMIC HYDROGEN REACTION http://cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm ------------------------------------------- Foreword by Tom Bearden: Here is an interesting excerpt from Lyne's book which, although not from a standard scientific journal, appears to have some vital information in it, particularly with regard to early hydrogen welding processes and other processes such as the Papp engine. We stress that statements in the article where Lyne simply rejects general relativity etc., and using his own terminology, should not be taken too literally since it is his opinion. Further, that is not the important part of his information advanced. In modern quantum field theory, the charge (such as a proton which is atomic hydrogen without its electron) is considered an infinite bare charged mass in the middle surrounded by infinite virtual charged masses of opposite sign. The difference between the two infinities is finite, so the external observer looking through the "shielding screen" of the outer charge sees its difference with the sign of the inner charge, and thus sees a finite value for the inner charged mass, even though infinite charges are involved. In short, he "sees" or observes the standard textbook value for the charge and its mass. But by the asymmetry of opposite charges, two infinite charges of opposite sign can in fact pour out EM energy indefinitely (unceasingly). The original charges of the early universe have been doing so for some 14.7 billion years, assuming the best observational determinations of the age of the universe. With the discovery of broken symmetry in 1957, one of the proven broken symmetries is that of opposite charges. The classical "isolated charge" (such as the proton/atomic hydrogen), is actually a charge ensemble of opposite charges. Hence a priori the "isolated charge" (classical view) must demonstrate the asymmetry of opposite charges in the quantum field theoretic view. This means that the charge really does continuously absorb virtual photon energy from the vacuum, coherently integrate it into observable photons, and re-emit that EM energy as real, observable photons radiating in all directions at light speed. This radiated real EM energy establishes and continuously replenishes the associated fields and potentials of the source charge, radially outward at light speed. So atomic hydrogen (the proton) does indeed continuously extract virtual energy from the active vacuum, integrate it into real observable energy, and radiate that real EM energy outward. This focuses strong attention on the gross inaccuracy of the present view of the "static EM field" (as from a charge or a dipole such as a permanent magnet) in both physics and electrical engineering. The EM field in space is comprised of real observable photons, else we must discard quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, quantum electrodynamics, and much of physics. Further, a photon in space is moving at light speed a priori. So (in spite of the odd view of some physicists and most engineers), the "static" EM field must be more correctly regarded as in Van Flandern's analogy of a sort of "perfect waterfall", whose total form appears static, but with that "static envelope" made of internal parts in continuous motion, with each part moving out of any position noted and being replaced by the part behind it. The EM field in space is that sort of structure, where its "internal parts" are photons and the photons are moving at light speed. The point is that any charge produces a continuous flow of real, usable EM energy from the vacuum. Thermodynamically we are describing a nonequilibrium steady-state (NESS) system, and such a system is permitted to continuously emit energy (received from its environment). The charge also falsifies the present second law of thermodynamics to any size level and time duration desired, because the emitted photons do form deterministic EM fields and potentials as a function of radial distance. One calculates the field intensity and potential intensity at any radial point, by a deterministic formula -- not by the use of statistics. Stated in the language of thermodynamics, the charge consumes positive entropy (disordered and uncontrolled energy) in the virtual state, and coherently integrates it to ordered and controlled energy in the observable state, which is a negative entropy operation producing useful EM energy in the observable state. Here is the secret of the "coherent integration" process of the source charge. By absorbing a virtual photon, the energy of that virtual photon (divided by c-squared) provides a virtual change to the mass m of the charge. But that mass is integral and unitary! The entire mass is what is changed, not just some part of it. Then another virtual photon is absorbed, with a second virtual change of the mass, COHERENTLY added to that first virtual change because the mass change is unitary. Hence the iterative virtual changes of the mass of the charge add coherently until sufficient mass accumulates (when multiplied by c-squared) to constitute the energy of an observable photon. At that point the virtual excitation of the mass decays by emitting a real, observable photon. The process iteratively proceeds with a rapidity that is mind boggling. The end result is to put some real substance into Lyne's observations on the excess energy from atomic hydrogen, which is equivalent to the excess energy from the proton. The proton (and any other charge, viewed in the quantum field theory manner) is continuously and ceaselessly pouring out real EM energy extracted and coherently integrated (RE-ORDERED and RECOVERED) from the disordered virtual energy of the seething vacuum. So the only barrier to COP>1.0 EM performance with atomic hydrogen is in the process or method used to diverge and collect sufficient of the continuously flowing "gusher" of real EM energy from each atom (each proton). Or, viewed thermodynamically, COP>1.0 performance is permitted by the NESS process, as is already well known in the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium steady state systems. It's rather like a windmill in a steady wind. It can permissibly change the form of its input energy to a different form of output energy, and part of that output energy can be intercepted, collected, and dissipated to power external loads. The common solar cell does the same thing, receiving observable photons from its environment and outputting electrical energy. So the reader is urged to simply consider the fundamental information in Lyne's cogent writing, in light of the foregoing discussion, and sort out the science as he sees fit. The real point of the article is the excess energy output, and its availability for use to perform real work. Tom Bearden 7/6/03. ============================================= At the end of the above article there is quite a long quote from William Lyne's book "Occult Ether Physics" on atomic hydrogen reaction which may interest Vortexians. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 13:26:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69KQE4m030357; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:26:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69KQDo3030345; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:26:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:26:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07fa01c584c4$68d05f70$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <410-22005769125521490 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MAHG update Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:25:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_07F7_01C58489.BBFF1690" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_07F7_01C58489.BBFF1690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, Given your finding that the filament resistance is about 1 ohm at 2000 K = there is no way that more than 8-10 amps is being drawn, even at full = duty. That five watt figure which Naudin is claiming is actually looking = possible, if not likely, at 5% duty factor - if most of the cathode = heating is provided __by the reaction__ itself, and NOT by the meager = current. Would you agree? Perhaps we should not even call this electrode = a real cathode, until we get the wiring schematic. That would assume that the CMOS unit seen in the image is PNP. again, we = need a schematic diagram. Some other rough estimates (please post your suggested corrections): If the volume of a MAHG tube is about a half liter and the vacuum=20 is 80 torr, then there will be rougly10e20 molecules of H2 in a=20 MAHG tube, about 4 milligrams. If ZPE is being somehow cohered by the hydrogen in the tube (by a=20 bare proton in one theory) and the characteristic ZPE mass/energy=20 level for that transfer of energy is 3.4 eV (half the 6.8 eV=20 ionization potential of virtual Ps), and the net output of the=20 tube is 100 watts from 5 watts electrical input, then how many=20 molecules of gas are participating in the ZPE coherence reaction=20 per given time period, and does this reconcile with the filament=20 temperature which is seen? 100 Watt seconds =3D 6.24*e20 eV =3D 100 joules =3D 24 calories. This=20 would mean that every molecule in the tube was participating about=20 one time per second, or in any give pulse (of 50 pulses per=20 second), then 2% of the molecules will on average have one of the=20 protons go "bare" for long enough to cohere the characteristic=20 photon from ZPE (the Dirac epo field). To convert the=20 characteristic ZPE energy of 3.4 eV into the Kelvin scale of=20 temperature, multiply by 11,605 =3D ~40,000 degrees K. Bob Fickle estimates that it would take 200 joules to heat the=20 filament to 2000 K - but that is assuming continuous temperature.=20 If the filament were cycling between 2000 K and 700 K at the 50 Hz=20 pulse rate than, yes the 100 joule output from the reaction (not from = the input current) should seem to be sufficient to cycle the filament = to that temperature for a brief period, as in the graphic chart on the = MAHG site. The Mean Free Path for Electrons (or H2 molecules) is harder to = determine but the number of electron collisions with hydrogen at 80 = torr per linear distance in cm =3D ~100 per cm/sec at 80 torr, and if = are 10 amps of flux, then one ampere is 6.24 =D7 10e18 elementary = charges per second, then approximately one in every 10 collisions of a = ballistic electron with an H2 gas molecule will result in a=20 temporary dislocation of one of the protons - which becomes=20 temporarily "bare" for an instant and is "replaced" by a positron=20 in the molecule, while "borrowing" the virtual electron from the=20 Ps, during this instant of time. When the temporary dislocation is over, in a matter of=20 femptoseconds or less, half of the I.P. of the virtual Ps will=20 remain in our 3-space (3.4 eV) - which is the ZPE energy - which as=20 suggested takes the form of an ultraviolet photon, which is=20 immediately down-converted to IR heat - which is the excess heat=20 seen at the tube wall and at the cathode (through the abnormally=20 high heating effect).=20 Since the cool tube wall is critical, and since the=20 wall is sputtered, it is likely that all this OU happens within a=20 few microns of the wall itself and none of it happens on the so-called cathode - which is just there to provide thermionic electrons -=20 which are the "instigating" particle (being transferred by the molecule = as a negative ion? or not ;-) However, this begs the question: is it possible to convert the 3.4=20 eV photon to electricity without letting it get first diluted down to IR = low-grade heat? It also suggests a way to immediately improve the output - a very=20 high surface area at tube wall. Actually the "sputtering" itself=20 does this, to a degree. Maybe that is the key and that this is NOT a = true anode, nor is the cathode a true cathode. More craziness to ponder... Jones=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 5:55 AM Subject: Re: MAHG update JLN's W Filament 2.5E-4 meter dia x 0.100 meter long Area =3D (pi)R^2 x L =3D 4.9E-9 meter^2 Resistance at 27 K =3D 0.122 ohms Resistance at 500 K =3D 0.203 ohms Resistance at 1,000 K =3D 0.508 ohms Resistance at 2,000 K =3D 1.13 ohms Temp K w/m^2 Ohm-Meters Amp/Meter^2 = % H Atoms 27.00 -- - - 0.60E-7 = - - - - - - 500 100 1.0E-7 = - - - - - - - 1000 6,000 2.5E-7 = - - - - - - 1500 55,200 4.04E-7 < = 1.0E-3 - - - 2000 240,400 5.67E-7 = 1.00 0.1 2500 698,000 7.4E-7 = 5,000 1.60 ------=_NextPart_000_07F7_01C58489.BBFF1690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
 
Given your finding that the filament resistance = is about 1=20 ohm at 2000 K there is no way that more than 8-10 amps is being drawn, = even at=20 full duty. That five watt figure which Naudin is claiming is actually = looking=20 possible, if not likely, at  5% duty factor - if most of the = cathode=20 heating is provided __by the reaction__  itself, and NOT by the = meager=20 current. Would you agree? Perhaps we should not even call this electrode = a real=20 cathode, until we get the wiring schematic.
 
That would assume that the CMOS unit seen in the = image is=20 PNP. again, we need a schematic diagram.

Some other rough estimates (please post = your=20 suggested corrections):

If the volume of a MAHG tube is about a = half=20 liter and the vacuum
is 80 torr, then there will be rougly10e20 = molecules of=20 H2 in a
MAHG tube, about 4 milligrams.

If ZPE is being = somehow=20 cohered by the hydrogen in the tube (by a
bare proton in one theory) = and the=20 characteristic ZPE mass/energy
level for that transfer of energy is = 3.4 eV=20 (half the 6.8 eV
ionization potential of virtual Ps), and the net = output of=20 the
tube is 100 watts from 5 watts electrical input, then how many=20
molecules of gas are participating in the ZPE coherence reaction =
per=20 given time period, and does this reconcile with the filament =
temperature=20 which is seen?

100 Watt seconds =3D 6.24*e20 eV =3D 100 joules = =3D 24 calories.=20 This
would mean that every molecule in the tube was participating = about=20
one time per second, or in any give pulse (of 50 pulses per =
second),=20 then 2% of the molecules will on average have one of the
protons go = "bare"=20 for long enough to cohere the characteristic
photon from ZPE (the = Dirac epo=20 field). To convert the
characteristic ZPE energy of 3.4 eV into the = Kelvin=20 scale of
temperature, multiply by 11,605 =3D ~40,000 degrees = K.

Bob=20 Fickle estimates that it would take 200 joules to heat the
filament = to 2000=20 K - but that is assuming continuous temperature.
If the filament = were=20 cycling between 2000 K and 700 K at the 50 Hz
pulse rate than, yes = the 100=20 joule output from the reaction (not from the input current) should seem = to=20 be  sufficient to cycle the filament to that temperature for a = brief =20 period, as in the graphic chart on the MAHG site.

The Mean Free = Path for=20 Electrons (or H2 molecules) is harder to determine but the  = number of=20 electron collisions with hydrogen at 80 torr per linear  distance = in cm =3D=20 ~100 per cm/sec at 80 torr, and if are 10 amps of  flux, then one = ampere is=20 6.24 =D7 10e18 elementary charges per  second, then approximately = one in=20 every 10 collisions of a  ballistic electron with an H2 gas = molecule will=20 result in a
temporary dislocation of one of the protons - which = becomes=20
temporarily "bare" for an instant and is "replaced" by a positron =
in the=20 molecule, while "borrowing" the virtual electron from the
Ps, during = this=20 instant of time.

When the temporary dislocation is over, in a = matter of=20
femptoseconds or less, half of the I.P. of the virtual Ps will =
remain in=20 our 3-space (3.4 eV) - which is the ZPE energy - which as
suggested = takes=20 the form of an ultraviolet photon, which is
immediately = down-converted to IR=20 heat - which is the excess heat
seen at the tube wall and at the = cathode=20 (through the abnormally
high heating effect).
 
Since the cool tube wall is critical, and since = the=20
wall is sputtered, it is likely that all this OU happens within a =
few=20 microns of the wall itself and none of it happens on the = so-called
cathode -=20 which is just there to provide thermionic electrons -
which are the=20 "instigating" particle (being transferred by the molecule as a negative = ion? or=20 not ;-)

However, this begs the question: is it possible to = convert the=20 3.4
eV photon to electricity without letting it get first diluted = down to IR=20
low-grade heat?

It also suggests a way to immediately improve = the=20 output - a very
high surface area at tube wall. Actually the = "sputtering"=20 itself
does this, to a degree. Maybe that is the key and that this = is NOT a=20 true anode, nor is the cathode a true cathode.
 
More craziness to ponder...
 
Jones
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 = 5:55=20 AM
Subject: Re: MAHG update

JLN's  W Filament  2.5E-4 meter dia = x 0.100=20 meter long
 
Area =3D (pi)R^2 x L   =3D    4.9E-9 = meter^2
 
Resistance at 27 K  =3D   0.122 ohms
 
Resistance at 500 K =3D  0.203  ohms
 
Resistance at 1,000 K  =3D  0.508 ohms
 
Resistance at 2,000 K    =3D   = 1.13 =20 ohms
 
 
Temp =20 K           =20 w/m^2        =20 Ohm-Meters         =20 Amp/Meter^2       % H Atoms
 
=
27.00          &nb= sp;       =20 -- -=20 = -            = 0.60E-7           =             &= nbsp;=20 - -=20 = -            =              = - - -
 
=
500           = ;          =20 = 100           &nbs= p;  =20 = 1.0E-7           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; =20 - - -=20 = -            =          =20 - - -
 
=
1000          &nbs= p;        =20 = 6,000           &n= bsp;=20 = 2.5E-7           &= nbsp;           =20 - - =20 = -            =           =20 - - -
 
=
1500          &nbs= p;      =20 = 55,200           &= nbsp;=20 = 4.04E-7           =       =20 <=20 = 1.0E-3           &= nbsp;      =20 - - -
 
=
2000          &nbs= p;    =20 = 240,400           =  =20 = 5.67E-7           =         =20 = 1.00           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;   =20 0.1
 
=
2500          &nbs= p;    =20 = 698,000           =  =20 = 7.4E-7           &= nbsp;           =20 = 5,000           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;1.60
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_07F7_01C58489.BBFF1690-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 9 16:15:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j69NEtMj004356; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:15:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j69NEqOa004326; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:14:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:14:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <128d01c584db$f9e732b0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: ZPE & the cosmic-tongue-twister Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:14:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_128A_01C584A1.4D2441B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_128A_01C584A1.4D2441B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Caveat: "Lethal Text" (LT) follows... and what you don't know can't = skill you... LT is like that "forbidden-fruit" kind of thing... you know, it even = sounds deadly to us muttersprachers: ZITTERBEWEGUNG - not to be confused = with the Turangalila jitterbug of cosmogenesis, or the dutch-treat: Ik = zag de zon zakken in de Zuiderzee. Yup that's what they call ZPE in them = ivory towers.... If there is such a thing as resonant zitterbewegung, aether-conditioning = so-to-speak, then it may be the driving force of MAHG... but you didn't = hear that here, Hannes.... ;-) In Piers Anthony's SF story - "Macroscope", an alien message destroys = the mind of anyone intelligent enough to understand it. Author Arthur = used the famous "earworm" thing in a short story called "The Ultimate = Melody". Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" has the LT show up in broadband = as a computer virus, which gives hackers their just desserts (wish I had = something similar for spammers). The most famous version of LT outside = the Bible (where you are no-vowelly protected) probably goes back to the = "Sirens' song" of the old "Odyssey," not to be confused with the remake = "A Space Odyssey" and the five notes you will never forget: = zit...err..be...we...gung? The old Odyssey is the classy (and fearless) version of LT - actually = giving us a peek at the contents of the LT in advance. Apparently the = Homeric text isn't too dangerous without the music - which brings up = both the "monolith" metaphor in 2001, and the famous musical score. The = monolith, cueing in on both Plato and Homer, emits a siren-like = acknowledgement when it first sees sunlight.=20 I suspect that Zitterbewegung actually sounds like this and the aurora = borealis and is in reality the primal Alfven wave ; but if Hannes had = told you, then he would have to skill you. LT is also part of another = zed-connection, "Thus Spake Zarathustra,'' inspired by the words of = another zed-connection: Nietzsche, and cinqo-noted ascension of man into = dimension of gods, 4-space, of course. Edvard Munch supplied the = unforgettable image - the view looking into the cold, frightening, = magnificent and deadly abyss which is 4-space. In one of his most widely read essays (both short and 'pregnant'), Hal = Puthoff opines: **Gravity can thus be understood as a kind of long-range Casimir force** It all goes back to the well-known Russian physicist Andrei Sakharov, = who put forward the radical hypothesis that gravity might not be a = fundamental interaction at all ! gravity is another form of resonant = aether-conditioning so-to-speak, like the driving force of MAHG... and = one suspects that the if they ever get around to weighing the damn = thing.... but you didn't hear that here.... ;-) If gravity is a secondary or residual effect associated with other the = EM field and with interdimensional effects, then the ZPE connection is = somewhat easier to understand. Specifically, Sakharov suggested that = gravity might be an *induced secondary effect* brought about by changes = in the zero-point field ZPF, aka the aether (IOW gravity is a type of = dimensional-shielding, due to the presence of matter). If correct, = gravity would then be understood as just another variation on the = Casimir theme, in which background zero-point-energy pressures were = again responsible.=20 The approach to gravity was addressed by Puthoff by showing that every = particle is situated in the sea of electromagnetic zero-point = fluctuations develops this "jitter" motion, or Zitterbewegung as it is = called in the mother tongue. When there are two or more particles they = are each influenced not only by the fluctuating background field, but = also by the fields generated by the other particles, all similarly = undergoing a "contact-high" of epo-moderated Zitterbewegung motion, and = the inter-particle coupling due to these fields results in the = attractive gravitational force, and add in a dose of large scale = asymmetry brought on by curvature, and voila - the zed-connection and = its ubiquitous signature - not exactly the mark of Zorro but the = ultraviolet glow of cosmic glue. More later, Jones ------=_NextPart_000_128A_01C584A1.4D2441B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Caveat: "Lethal Text" (LT) follows... = and what you=20 don't know can't skill you...

LT is like that "forbidden-fruit" = kind of=20 thing... you know, it even sounds deadly to us muttersprachers: = ZITTERBEWEGUNG -=20 not to be confused with the Turangalila jitterbug of cosmogenesis, or = the=20 dutch-treat: Ik zag de zon zakken in de Zuiderzee. Yup that's what they = call ZPE=20 in them ivory towers....
 
If there is such a thing as resonant=20 zitterbewegung, aether-conditioning so-to-speak, then it may be the = driving=20 force of MAHG... but you didn't hear that here, Hannes.... ;-)

In Piers Anthony's SF story - "Macroscope", an alien message = destroys=20 the mind of anyone intelligent enough to understand it. Author Arthur = used the=20 famous "earworm" thing in a short story called "The Ultimate Melody". = Neal=20 Stephenson's "Snow Crash" has the LT show up in broadband as a computer = virus,=20 which gives hackers their just desserts (wish I had something similar = for=20 spammers). The most famous version of LT outside the Bible (where you = are=20 no-vowelly protected) probably goes back to the "Sirens' song" of the = old=20 "Odyssey," not to be confused with the remake "A Space Odyssey" and the = five=20 notes you will never forget: zit...err..be...we...gung?

The old = Odyssey=20 is the classy (and fearless) version of LT - actually giving us a peek = at the=20 contents of the LT in advance. Apparently the Homeric text isn't too = dangerous=20 without the music - which brings up both the "monolith" metaphor in = 2001, and=20 the famous musical score. The monolith, cueing in on both Plato and = Homer, emits=20 a siren-like acknowledgement when it first sees sunlight.

I = suspect that=20 Zitterbewegung actually sounds like this and the aurora borealis and is = in=20 reality the primal Alfven wave ; but if Hannes had told you, then = he would=20 have to skill you. LT is also part of another zed-connection,  = "Thus=20 Spake Zarathustra,'' inspired by the words of another zed-connection: = Nietzsche,=20 and cinqo-noted ascension of man into dimension of gods, 4-space, of = course.=20 Edvard Munch supplied the unforgettable image - the view looking into = the cold,=20 frightening, magnificent and deadly abyss which is = 4-space.

In one=20 of his most widely read essays (both short and 'pregnant'), Hal Puthoff=20 opines:
**Gravity can thus be understood as a kind of long-range = Casimir=20 force**

It all goes back to the well-known Russian physicist = Andrei=20 Sakharov, who put forward the radical hypothesis that gravity might not = be a=20 fundamental interaction at all ! gravity is another form of resonant=20 aether-conditioning so-to-speak, like the driving force of MAHG... and = one=20 suspects that the if they ever get around to weighing the damn thing.... = but you=20 didn't hear that here.... ;-)

If gravity is a secondary or = residual=20 effect associated with other the EM field and with interdimensional = effects,=20 then the ZPE connection is somewhat easier to understand. Specifically, = Sakharov=20 suggested that gravity might be an *induced secondary effect* brought = about by=20 changes in the zero-point field ZPF, aka the aether (IOW gravity is a = type of=20 dimensional-shielding, due to the presence of matter). If correct, = gravity would=20 then be understood as just another variation on the Casimir = theme, in=20 which background zero-point-energy pressures were again responsible. =

The=20 approach to gravity was addressed by Puthoff by showing that every = particle is=20 situated in the sea of electromagnetic zero-point fluctuations=20 develops this "jitter" motion, or  Zitterbewegung as it is = called in=20 the mother tongue. When there are two or more particles they are each = influenced=20 not only by the fluctuating background field, but also by the fields = generated=20 by the other particles, all similarly undergoing a "contact-high"=20 of epo-moderated Zitterbewegung motion, and the inter-particle = coupling due to these fields results in the attractive gravitational = force, and=20 add in a dose of large scale asymmetry brought on by curvature, and = voila - the=20 zed-connection and its ubiquitous signature - not exactly the mark of = Zorro but=20 the ultraviolet glow of cosmic glue.
 
More later,
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_128A_01C584A1.4D2441B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 10 07:27:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6AERCpZ008210; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:27:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6AER3Cs008149; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:27:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:27:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=m15cjZUtiHHy1/EbuRzpU35411JGBNjC5hvu+mNCQEzwRW4HkDS2Jy8jW3/tqaml; Message-ID: <410-220057010132653280 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "jonesb9" Subject: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:26:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c688cb65d05d85017f342d81ef978abe350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.211 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII based on JLN's numbers there are No H atoms or Electrons produced with the 5 watts power input ~100 watt power output. Rather "Hardball" H2 - H2 molecular collisions in the low pressure H2 gas at an effective temperature of ~ 5,000 K are producing fractional-orbit energy-releasing reactions at a collision frequency of ~ 9.4 GHz. In turn, the pervasive ZPE fluctuations are "restoring" the molecules to the higher energy state to finish the cycle. Based on this conjecture a simple cartridge heater in a low pressure H2 gas will probably accomplish the same Free Energy results as the MAHG. The same premise applies to the Griggs, Potapov & Huffman and other devices that can get a Hardball H2 - H2 Collision. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

based on JLN's numbers there are No H atoms or Electrons produced
with the 5 watts power input ~100 watt power output.
 
Rather "Hardball" H2 - H2 molecular collisions in the low pressure H2 gas
at an effective temperature of ~ 5,000 K are producing fractional-orbit energy-releasing
reactions at a collision frequency of ~ 9.4 GHz.
In turn, the pervasive ZPE fluctuations are "restoring" the molecules to the higher
energy state to finish the cycle.
 
Based on this conjecture a simple cartridge heater in a low pressure H2 gas
will probably accomplish the same Free Energy results as the MAHG.
 
The same premise applies to the Griggs, Potapov & Huffman and other
devices that can get a Hardball  H2 - H2 Collision.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 10 08:20:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6AFJoAD001498; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:19:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6AFJmJ2001470; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:19:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:19:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004701c58562$c6187cf0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , Cc: References: <410-220057010132653280 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:19:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01C58528.19342140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C58528.19342140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, If this is true, and it sounds intriguing on first take, then seeking an = "exact" harmonic of the 1.420 Ghz hydrogen line should make a = significant difference. This would even be more compelling IMHO if the = "hard-ball" collision you are hypothesizing resulted in the occasional = 3.4 eV or higher ultraviolet photon ;-). But even without the UV, one = wonders if the 21 cm microwave energy itself is being cohered ? That = would be very exciting and should be easy enough to determine with a = higher frequency scope. Perhaps the OU effect is so robust within a range of parameters, that = just getting close to resonance provides OU, but then we must ask if = getting the resonance *exact* would heat things up even more ?=20 Perhaps getting the collisional frequency up to 8 x 1.420 =3D 11.36 Ghz = or down to 5.68 Ghz would show an improvement. That would be only a = marginally higher (or lower) fill perhaps... except.... by now, who = knows how close to the original spec, the present H2 fill is, after some = 100 runs? Copper is not perfect containment for H2 and there does not = appear to be a filling port, so the actual H2 fill at this point in time = is no more than a guess - other than the operating parameters could not = have changed very much or JLN would have noticed that. Not to mention = the hydrino connection - if any is being formed. One might imagine a = situation where hydrinos are being formed initially, but then the = hydrinos are pumped back up to normal H2 by ZPE due to a 1.42 Ghz = coherence mechanism, so that there are no "net" hydrinos. If any experimenter is contemplating a replication - and is going to buy = the similar Svetlana tube and then modify it for a replication, it would = be highly recommended (and relatively easy) to add a valve and vacuum = gauge to create a filling port so that different pressures, and = different combinations of gases - particularly H2 + He (the BLP formula) = can be tried. Jones ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com ; jonesb9=20 Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 6:26 AM Subject: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG based on JLN's numbers there are No H atoms or Electrons produced with the 5 watts power input ~100 watt power output. Rather "Hardball" H2 - H2 molecular collisions in the low pressure H2 = gas at an effective temperature of ~ 5,000 K are producing = fractional-orbit energy-releasing=20 reactions at a collision frequency of ~ 9.4 GHz.=20 In turn, the pervasive ZPE fluctuations are "restoring" the molecules = to the higher energy state to finish the cycle. Based on this conjecture a simple cartridge heater in a low pressure = H2 gas will probably accomplish the same Free Energy results as the MAHG. The same premise applies to the Griggs, Potapov & Huffman and other devices that can get a Hardball H2 - H2 Collision. Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C58528.19342140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
 
If this is true, and it sounds intriguing on = first take,=20 then seeking an "exact" harmonic of the 1.420 Ghz hydrogen line should = make a=20 significant difference. This would even be more compelling IMHO if the=20 "hard-ball" collision you are hypothesizing resulted in the occasional = 3.4 eV or=20 higher ultraviolet photon  ;-). But even without the UV, one = wonders if the=20 21 cm microwave energy itself is being cohered ? That would be very = exciting and=20 should be easy enough to determine with a higher frequency = scope.
 
Perhaps the OU effect is so robust within a = range of=20 parameters, that just getting close to resonance provides OU, but then = we must=20 ask if getting the resonance *exact* would heat things up even more=20 ? 
 
Perhaps getting the collisional frequency up to = 8 x 1.420=20 =3D 11.36 Ghz or down to 5.68 Ghz would show an improvement. That would = be only a=20 marginally higher (or lower) fill perhaps... except.... by now, who = knows how=20 close to the original spec, the present H2 fill is, after some 100 = runs?=20 Copper is not perfect containment for H2 and there does not appear to be = a=20 filling port, so the actual H2 fill at this point in time is no more = than a=20 guess - other than the operating parameters could not have changed very = much or=20 JLN would have noticed that. Not to mention the hydrino connection - if = any is=20 being formed. One might imagine a situation where hydrinos are being = formed=20 initially, but then the hydrinos are pumped back up to normal H2 by ZPE = due to a=20 1.42 Ghz coherence mechanism, so that there are no "net" = hydrinos.
 
If any experimenter is contemplating a = replication -=20 and is going to buy the similar Svetlana tube and then modify it for a=20 replication, it would be highly recommended (and relatively easy) to add = a valve=20 and vacuum gauge to create a filling port so that different pressures, = and=20 different combinations of gases - particularly H2 + He (the BLP formula) = can be=20 tried.
 
Jones
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com ; jonesb9
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 = 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: MHFEG Molecular = Hydrogen=20 Free Energy Generator vs MAHG

based on JLN's numbers there are No H atoms or Electrons = produced
with the 5 watts power input ~100 watt power output.
 
Rather "Hardball" H2 - H2 molecular collisions in the low = pressure H2=20 gas
at an effective temperature of ~ 5,000 K are producing = fractional-orbit=20 energy-releasing
reactions at a collision frequency of ~ 9.4 GHz.
In turn, the pervasive ZPE fluctuations are "restoring" the = molecules to=20 the higher
energy state to finish the cycle.
 
Based on this conjecture a simple cartridge heater in a low = pressure H2=20 gas
will probably accomplish the same Free Energy results as the = MAHG.
 
The same premise applies to the Griggs, Potapov & Huffman and = other
devices that can get a Hardball  H2 - H2 = Collision.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C58528.19342140-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 10 11:09:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6AI8W7b006512; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:08:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6AI8S0K006462; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:08:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:08:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.39.135] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:08:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050710180815.WMVS5760.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" By Jove, I think Sparber has it! > If any experimenter is contemplating a replication - and is going to buy the similar Svetlana tube and then modify it for a replication, it would be highly recommended (and relatively easy) to add a valve and vacuum gauge to create a filling port so that different pressures, and different combinations of gases - particularly H2 + He (the BLP formula) can be tried. Why not make the lower dielectric portion of quartz? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 10 11:28:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6AIRWea015039; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:27:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6AIQsse014709; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:26:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:26:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c5857c$de84ef20$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: the Razor's dull edge Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:26:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In looking at any new device claiming overunity, almost every observer who is willing to consider the possibility that mainstream physics is wrong on the larger issue (negentropy) - nevertheless still comes to the table with certain preconceived notions - often rather strongly held theories, based upon their own niche and level of understanding. The MAHG is a case-in-point. If there is a true anomaly here, then we have to ask what is the "ultimate" source of excess energy: LENR, ZPE, the hydrino (redundant ground state hydrogen), or a Langmuir atomic-hydrogen asymmetry? Because of something further - a kind of nebulous allegiance to the logic-maxim of "economy" - better known as Occkam's razor, there is a decided-tendency NOT to see how all of these factors can be strongly interrelated. Perhaps they are all interrelated, and quite substantially so, such that LENR cannot occur without ZPE first supplying the necessary energy to force H or D into a redundant ground state. Funny. Even in the broader heresy labeled as "pathological science" - the above statement, which adds to the confusion by confounding William of Occkam on top of everyone else in mainstream physics, is probably considered to be the most untenable kind of heresy ... even by the practitioners of less-pathological-science. Kind of reminds me of that famous "whiter than thou" SNL skit... the one with Garrett Morris and Julian Bond. Good.... I find some degree of contrarian satisfaction and reverse snobbery in being labeled as not just in the lower caste, but among the untouchables of physics... not the lowest-of-the-low, mind-you (Dante's rock-bottom is becoming densely populated with the free-energy scam artists, former Enron execs, war-for-oil neo-cons, and ambulance-chasing trial lawyers, etc.). All the while realizing that "what goes around, comes around" and among the first group to "come back around" into the new and improved mainstream of tomorrow's emancipated world of science, will be the a few of the ones who have gone the farthest afield of the present-day luddites (without loosing touch, so-to-speak). Jones Yes ... it is not out of the question (or even difficult) to become so far-detached from reality that one looses that all-important firm grip on the merry-go-round of enlightenment. After all, most of what science tells us, is correct. In fact, the hard part is in appreciating how far, and in what directions, that one can depart from the mainstream without loosing that firm grasp. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 10 12:18:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6AJHeRS006256; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:17:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6AJHbsC006230; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:17:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:17:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.39.135] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: the Razor's dull edge Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:17:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050710191725.XFBV5760.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > The MAHG is a case-in-point. Is it really? I mean, after all, Harvey just posted an article about tests of the Casimir force as it relates to nanotechnology. ZPE does not violate the laws of thermodynamics. You only have to "expand your horizons" back to the origins of the universe if necessary. We KNOW what we KNOW. We merely speculate on what we don't know." > If there is a true anomaly here, then > we have to ask what is the "ultimate" source of excess energy: > LENR, ZPE, the hydrino (redundant ground state hydrogen), or a > Langmuir atomic-hydrogen asymmetry? Heck, Fred's explanation on partial levels is exactly the definition of the ZPF . . . IF you combine it with Hal's (Puthoff, not 'IBM') explanation of why the orbiting electron does not radiate. The system balances with ZPE precisely because it is astable. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 10 12:42:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6AJgCmH015223; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:42:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6AJg9Je015195; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:42:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:42:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002f01c58587$652bb6d0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050710191725.XFBV5760.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: the Razor's dull edge Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:41:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <_9q4mB.A.TtD.QoX0CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > Heck, Fred's explanation on partial levels is exactly the > definition of the ZPF . . . IF you combine it with Hal's > (Puthoff, not 'IBM') explanation of why the orbiting electron > does not radiate. The system balances with ZPE precisely > because it is astable. There are a ton of missing details there, even if the premise is accurate. The point that I was trying to make is that there could well exist a number of layered *partial* explanations, none of them "wrong" but none of them completely correct either. We really need more data, but it should surprise no one if some hydrinos and some LENR fusion products all turn up at the same time in MAHG - just as it should surprise no one that many types of CF may depend on deuterium in a below-ground-state condition, prior to fusion. Randall Mills will be one of the few who are surprised, when it is shown that hydrinos are cohering ZPE energy as the ultimate source of energy in "shrinkage". I think all of these things are inter-related. Just because an inventor can demonstrate an energy anomaly with a great experiment - this does not mean that he also got the underlying explanation correct (or even close). But the bottom line is that we really need more data. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 10 13:19:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6AKIgAm000572; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:18:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6AKIehS000561; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:18:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:18:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vkaDSysgCd00ocREPer2GYCyRY4GSwv2LQNyw5aDfub7M7ZW29g7O8jGikUl3UHvr/fI6SPPjg0r/Tas/NWs7EQj0F3BVfl8xGb8BWCje8XP4kzbDefKdyy1oUIDqU/ysSQIoxISyEDvRgTXXgqd946gFsqZvFf+pDh652dR1eY= ; Message-ID: <20050710201827.12750.qmail web33302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:18:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: the Razor's dull edge To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001701c5857c$de84ef20$6801a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-505570359-1121026707=:12531" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-505570359-1121026707=:12531 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jones, That was a most eloquent presentation and I found myself in complete agreement. Your math in other posts is far beyond my limited mathematical understanding, but your precise analysis of this situation impressed me deeply. Any inventor claiming to have broken established laws of science should be prepared to accept the beating of his life first, and later - present the proof one layer at a time. There are too many slick talking con-artists, all seeking the fast buck by way of interfering with the affairs of the most ordinary people. But OU by nuclear reaction, offends not the majority of hard working people that have no idea what it all means, it offends the most educated minds. If a device is claimed to be unique and/or a New Technology, maybe that device should be able to produce materials that, when scientifically analyzed - will prove themselves to be heretofore unknown. What then? The most important aspect of any new technology is not the immediate use of that technology, but the possibility of future scientific discovery and its beneficial effect on the population. The answers will come from hard scientific analysis from people like you Jones - and hopefully, the answers will benefit mankind and not be sequestered away as with many other disruptive technologies. I may be wrong, but the ability of a Plasma to release energy no longer seems to be a hot issue - however the root cause may be debatable for years to come. One consideration as to Ockham's Razor in the case of Plasma, is that all things are not equal, or self evident. The surface temperature can be hundreds of thousands of degrees cooler than the core (MIT), and the temperature 1inch away from the surface can be thousands of degrees cooler than that surface. Unexpected events seem to occur within the many different fields of Plasma research from Ken Shoulders transmutations and the many reports on LENR's by other methods. Even though I have at times (maybe more often than not) been intolerable, my goal was to contribute a small kernel of new truth that others could comment on, and I appreciate being allowed to participate in a small way. Best Regards, Chris Arnold Jones Beene wrote:In looking at any new device claiming overunity, almost every observer who is willing to consider the possibility that mainstream physics is wrong on the larger issue (negentropy) - nevertheless still comes to the table with certain preconceived notions - often rather strongly held theories, based upon their own niche and level of understanding. The MAHG is a case-in-point. If there is a true anomaly here, then we have to ask what is the "ultimate" source of excess energy: LENR, ZPE, the hydrino (redundant ground state hydrogen), or a Langmuir atomic-hydrogen asymmetry? Because of something further - a kind of nebulous allegiance to the logic-maxim of "economy" - better known as Occkam's razor, there is a decided-tendency NOT to see how all of these factors can be strongly interrelated. Perhaps they are all interrelated, and quite substantially so, such that LENR cannot occur without ZPE first supplying the necessary energy to force H or D into a redundant ground state. Funny. Even in the broader heresy labeled as "pathological science" - the above statement, which adds to the confusion by confounding William of Occkam on top of everyone else in mainstream physics, is probably considered to be the most untenable kind of heresy ... even by the practitioners of less-pathological-science. Kind of reminds me of that famous "whiter than thou" SNL skit... the one with Garrett Morris and Julian Bond. Good.... I find some degree of contrarian satisfaction and reverse snobbery in being labeled as not just in the lower caste, but among the untouchables of physics... not the lowest-of-the-low, mind-you (Dante's rock-bottom is becoming densely populated with the free-energy scam artists, former Enron execs, war-for-oil neo-cons, and ambulance-chasing trial lawyers, etc.). All the while realizing that "what goes around, comes around" and among the first group to "come back around" into the new and improved mainstream of tomorrow's emancipated world of science, will be the a few of the ones who have gone the farthest afield of the present-day luddites (without loosing touch, so-to-speak). Jones Yes ... it is not out of the question (or even difficult) to become so far-detached from reality that one looses that all-important firm grip on the merry-go-round of enlightenment. After all, most of what science tells us, is correct. In fact, the hard part is in appreciating how far, and in what directions, that one can depart from the mainstream without loosing that firm grasp. --------------------------------- Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - No fees. Bid on great items. --0-505570359-1121026707=:12531 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Jones,
 
That was a most eloquent presentation and I found myself in complete agreement. Your math in other posts is far beyond my limited mathematical understanding, but your precise analysis of this situation impressed me deeply.
 
Any inventor claiming to have broken established laws of science should be prepared to accept the beating of his life first, and later - present the proof one layer at a time. There are too many slick talking con-artists, all seeking the fast buck by way of interfering with the affairs of the most ordinary people. But OU by nuclear reaction, offends not the majority of hard working people that have no idea what it all means, it offends the most educated minds.
 
If a device is claimed to be unique and/or a New Technology, maybe that device should be able to produce materials that, when scientifically analyzed - will prove themselves to be heretofore unknown. What then? The most important aspect of any new technology is not the immediate use of that technology, but the possibility of future scientific discovery and its beneficial effect on the population. The answers will come from hard scientific analysis from people like you Jones - and hopefully, the answers will benefit mankind and not be sequestered away as with many other disruptive technologies. I may be wrong, but the ability of a Plasma to release energy no longer seems to be a hot issue - however the root cause may be debatable for years to come. 
 
One consideration as to Ockham's Razor in the case of Plasma, is that all things are not equal, or self evident. The surface temperature can be hundreds of thousands of degrees cooler than the core (MIT), and the temperature 1inch away from the surface can be thousands of degrees cooler than that surface. Unexpected events seem to occur within the many different fields of Plasma research from Ken Shoulders transmutations and the many reports on LENR's by other methods.
 
Even though I have at times (maybe more often than not) been intolerable, my goal was to contribute a small kernel of new truth that others could comment on, and I appreciate being allowed to participate in a small way.
 
Best Regards,
Chris Arnold


Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
In looking at any new device claiming overunity, almost every
observer who is willing to consider the possibility that
mainstream physics is wrong on the larger issue (negentropy) -
nevertheless still comes to the table with certain preconceived
notions - often rather strongly held theories, based upon their
own niche and level of understanding.

The MAHG is a case-in-point. If there is a true anomaly here, then
we have to ask what is the "ultimate" source of excess energy:
LENR, ZPE, the hydrino (redundant ground state hydrogen), or a
Langmuir atomic-hydrogen asymmetry?

Because of something further - a kind of nebulous allegiance to
the logic-maxim of "economy" - better known as Occkam's razor,
there is a decided-tendency NOT to see how all of these factors
can be strongly interrelated.

Perhaps they are all interrelated, and quite substantially so,
such that LENR cannot occur without ZPE first supplying the
necessary energy to force H or D into a redundant ground state.

Funny. Even in the broader heresy labeled as "pathological
science" - the above statement, which adds to the confusion by
confounding William of Occkam on top of everyone else in
mainstream physics, is probably considered to be the most
untenable kind of heresy ... even by the practitioners of
less-pathological-science. Kind of reminds me of that famous
"whiter than thou" SNL skit... the one with Garrett Morris and
Julian Bond.

Good.... I find some degree of contrarian satisfaction and reverse
snobbery in being labeled as not just in the lower caste, but
among the untouchables of physics... not the lowest-of-the-low,
mind-you (Dante's rock-bottom is becoming densely populated with
the free-energy scam artists, former Enron execs, war-for-oil
neo-cons, and ambulance-chasing trial lawyers, etc.).

All the while realizing that "what goes around, comes around" and
among the first group to "come back around" into the new and
improved mainstream of tomorrow's emancipated world of science,
will be the a few of the ones who have gone the farthest afield of
the present-day luddites (without loosing touch, so-to-speak).

Jones

Yes ... it is not out of the question (or even difficult) to
become so far-detached from reality that one looses that
all-important firm grip on the merry-go-round of enlightenment.
After all, most of what science tells us, is correct. In fact, the
hard part is in appreciating how far, and in what directions, that
one can depart from the mainstream without loosing that firm
grasp.

Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - No fees. Bid on great items. --0-505570359-1121026707=:12531-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 10 14:02:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6AL1itq016787; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:01:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6AL1fJx016766; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:01:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:01:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.39.135] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: the Razor's dull edge Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:01:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050710210130.YEMW5760.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Randall Mills will be one of the few who are > surprised, when it is shown that hydrinos are cohering ZPE energy > as the ultimate source of energy in "shrinkage" IMO, Randell will be shocked. But, I'm not convinced he *is* shrinking orbits. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 05:05:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BC5LSS012815; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:05:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BC5KCu012808; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:05:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:05:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 8:05:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050711120506.OZQ7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9eagOD.A.EID._Bm0CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > OTOH, a hydrogen-filled (low pressure) 20 lb capacity propane tank with an off-the-shelf threaded cartridge heater screwed into the 3/4 fpt fitting.... > > If electrical power isn't available heat it over the campfire or in > a solar oven. > > Some tungsten granules or scraps as a JLN -Mills catalyst in the tank? > > High grade Over Unity Heat? I trust this is humor. You'd likely get better heat burning yellowcake in a pot-bellied stove. :-) JLN does not get ou unless he pulses his DC. Maybe you need to stir the pot a bit? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 05:59:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BCx51I012080; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:59:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BCwhfC011885; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:58:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:58:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050711125743.009aed20 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:57:43 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Molecular Water Free Energy Generator? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 05:27 am 11/07/2005 -0500, Fred wrote: > > Since hard-ball collisions of H2 molecules > seem to release free energy, it may be possible > to get similar results with low pressure-high > temperature water vapor in a sealed capsule > (one-pound propane bottles come to mind). > > Putting water in the capsule and heating it > in an oven at ~ 600 F to purge it of air, then > sealing it to trap the dry steam at about 76 Torr > (1/10 atm) at room temperature should be doable. > > Might this be the mechanism occurring with water > injection of ICEs when the low pressure > intake gasses hit the hot cylinder walls? > > Frederick Good idea Fred. It might also explain the anomaly someone found with the steam tables - and which was typically shat on - as these things are. Funnily enough, the idea of molecules bashing into one another and walls ties in with the attempts I am making to see pressure and Compreture (inverse of temperature) as term in the series, dL/dt, [(d^2)L/dt^2], [(d^3)L/dt^3], ......[(d^n)L/dt^n] where L is length, t is time and n in an integer. It is also suggestive of the Crookes Radiometer where the pressure has to be low for the molecules to have a long enough free path. I wonder if anyone has ever done an energy balance on the CR. I bet they haven't. It would be just too funny for words if it turned out to be a source of "free" energy - by which I mean, of course, a source of more energy than can be accounted for by the radiation. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 07:09:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BE9J7i015834; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:09:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BE9E5b015786; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:09:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:09:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711100717.043bea00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:08:54 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: USA Government has Secured 35,068 patents In-Reply-To: <20050709151530.78230.qmail web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <043201c58494$64450bc0$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> <20050709151530.78230.qmail web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050710/OPINION09/507100301/1110/OPINION Quotes: "Experience suggests that the government errs on the side of caution. In 1951, the Invention Secrecy Act gave the government authority to suppress any design it deemed detrimental to national defense. Certain areas of research -- atomic energy and cryptography -- consistently fell within its purview. But the government also placed secrecy orders on aspects of cold fusion, space technology, radar missile systems, citizens band radio voice scramblers, optical engineering and vacuum technology. Such caution, in the microbiology realm, may yield devastating results. It is not in the national interest to stunt research into biological threats. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 07:11:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BEBPPG016945; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:11:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BEBNTU016921; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:11:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:11:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711101010.043b9010 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:11:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Josephson letter in Guardian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1525690,00.html Letters _______________ Nuclear energy options Monday July 11, 2005 The Guardian The official word is that the international thermonuclear experimental reactor is the way ahead for clean energy from nuclear fusion, though it will be decades before usable energy will materialise (Letters, July 1). Commitment to this approach seems to have led to officialdom deciding to ignore apparently promising alternatives, such as a process known as sonofusion, featured in a recent lecture by Professor Rusi Taleyarkhan of Purdue University. This uses sound waves to create bubbles in a liquid and then collapse them, very high temperatures occurring at the point of collapse. It has been known for some time that flashes of light are sometimes generated in such a situation, but Taleyarkhan and his co-workers appear to have shown that under carefully specified conditions nuclear fusion also occurs. His claims, published in Science and in the Physical Review, are based on the detection of nuclear products as well as on a range of other checks. A replication by another group has been published recently in Nuclear Engineering and Design, so the claims cannot readily be dismissed. This work indicates fairly definitively that thermonuclear temperatures can be produced simply, in a table-top experiment, forcing one to take seriously the stronger claims of Stringham et al. They also use sonofusion, but have the bubbles collapse at a metal surface, and claim this greatly enhances the yield of the fusion process. Power outputs in a small volume of the order of 50 watts are currently claimed, and they are working towards power generation in the kilowatt range. Dare one hope that some of Iter's budget might be diverted to possibilities such as these? Prof Brian Josephson University of Cambridge From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 08:27:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BFQjHn025543; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:26:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BFQd2V025460; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:26:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:26:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c5862c$e2077630$0101a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: References: <20050711120506.OZQ7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:26:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ill be in the fox hole when this is done - i once welded a fuel tank from a motorbike which was "Purged" and wont forget it for a long while heh heh heh :-) Noel whitney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG >> From: "Frederick Sparber" > >> OTOH, a hydrogen-filled (low pressure) 20 lb capacity propane tank with >> an off-the-shelf threaded cartridge heater screwed into the 3/4 fpt >> fitting.... >> >> If electrical power isn't available heat it over the campfire or in >> a solar oven. >> >> Some tungsten granules or scraps as a JLN -Mills catalyst in the tank? >> >> High grade Over Unity Heat? > > I trust this is humor. You'd likely get better heat burning yellowcake in > a pot-bellied stove. :-) > > JLN does not get ou unless he pulses his DC. Maybe you need to stir the > pot a bit? > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 08:49:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BFmsvH005619; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:49:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BFmqab005569; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:48:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:48:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:48:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050711154835.ESSQ7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Noel D. Whitney" > Ill be in the fox hole when this is done - i once welded a fuel tank from a > motorbike which was "Purged" and wont forget it for a long while heh heh heh Hey, I used to repair automobile fuel tanks. There's a trick to it. First, wash it out several times. Then fill it with water. As the water drains, direct the exhaust from an automobile engine into the tank. Before welding test the content by passing the torch over the tank opening. Proceed with repair (assuming it passed the last test :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 08:58:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BFw5Kl011921; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:58:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BFw36S011890; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:58:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:58:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=TAaATl4c+/6xvNDWex09JwHDQ9eCfn5fVHpAa0QIYD4LcioVWGkZLnPpQGxvO+FA; Message-ID: <410-220057111145732940 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:57:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b4aac580ca0b5b7b9868722ea3e9219f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.47 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes. There have been many fatalities from welding water "purged" gas tanks. Gasoline is a hydrogen laden hydrocarbon.that pyrolyizes to H2 when heated/thermally cracked. You don't suppose....? Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Noel D. Whitney > To: > Date: 7/11/05 10:26:47 AM > Subject: Re: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG > > Ill be in the fox hole when this is done - i once welded a fuel tank from a > motorbike which was "Purged" and wont forget it for a long while heh heh heh > :-) > Noel whitney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG > > > >> From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > >> OTOH, a hydrogen-filled (low pressure) 20 lb capacity propane tank with > >> an off-the-shelf threaded cartridge heater screwed into the 3/4 fpt > >> fitting.... > >> > >> If electrical power isn't available heat it over the campfire or in > >> a solar oven. > >> > >> Some tungsten granules or scraps as a JLN -Mills catalyst in the tank? > >> > >> High grade Over Unity Heat? > > > > I trust this is humor. You'd likely get better heat burning yellowcake in > > a pot-bellied stove. :-) > > > > JLN does not get ou unless he pulses his DC. Maybe you need to stir the > > pot a bit? > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 09:17:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BGGd4m023627; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:16:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BGGb39023586; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:16:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:16:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711114741.043d2210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:16:07 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Large increase in PV solar energy production Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Asahi newspaper Japanese edition reported on July 10 that Germany has overtaken Japan as the world's largest producer of photovoltaic PV solar energy panels. Both countries report a large increase in production and a rapidly falling cost per watt. 2004 PV production was 270 MW in Japan, an increase of 1.2 times (120%), and 360 MW in Germany, a 2.4 times increase. The installed base is now ~800 MW in Japan and ~1,100 MW in Germany (judging from the graphs in the newspaper articles.) The Germans have some solar "mega-locations," such as a soccer field stadium, with over 1 MW of capacity. Japan has not attempted any similar "mega-location" project, which is why it has slipped into second place in production. Kyocera is the largest PV producer in Japan. . . . That is impressive, but PV is still far behind wind energy. In 2004, wind energy increased worldwide by 7,976 MW, and the installed total reached 47,317 MW. You have to apply a fudge factor to compare this to coal or nuclear power, because actually production is usually 30% of nameplate power (40% for offshore turbines). However, this fudge factor is not needed to compare wind to solar, because solar is also greatly reduced by cloudy weather and night. Fortunately, both wind and solar tend to be strongest when they are most needed. That is especially true of PV in sunny, hot places like Japan where air conditioning is widespread. Also, it should be noted that PV last 10 - 15 years, and they degrade rapidly after 10 years, whereas wind turbines last 20 years and do not degrade measurably. When you apply the fudge factor to last year's increase of 7,976 MW in wind power, it works out to be the same as adding 2.1 brand new, average U.S. nuclear plants, run at that actual measured average capacity factor. In other words, the world has 18 giant nuclear fusion power plants (solar fusion), and it is building 2 more per year. Compare that to the 103 U.S. fission plants. It is *very* impressive compared to ITER and other pie-in-the-sky plans. I cannot understand why some people, such as V.P. Cheney, think that wind power is marginal or unimportant. The "Wind Force 12 Plan" calls for wind power to supply 12% of world electricity by 2020. This would be 12% of the demand in 15 years, when total demand is expected to increase by 66%. The plan calls for 1,245,000 MW total wind capacity, 26 times more than we now have. It seems doable to me, but I very much doubt that the U.S. and other major governments will support it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 09:38:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BGcK5K004311; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:38:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BGcIRZ004285; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:38:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:38:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711122213.043ba8a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:38:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Large increase in PV solar energy production In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711114741.043d2210 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711114741.043d2210 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >The "Wind Force 12 Plan" calls for wind power to supply 12% of world >electricity by 2020. . . . The plan calls for 1,245,000 MW total wind >capacity, 26 times more than we now have. This calls for an increase over present annual construction by a factor of 10. It seems like a reasonable goal to me. Production is already increasing by 20% to 30% per year. To put it another way, instead of adding the equivalent of 2 new nuclear plants, we would build ~20 per year. This is about how many plants were built at the peak of nuclear fission power expansion in the early 1970s. The cost would be far cheaper than building 20 new fission plants, and the new capacity would come on line at least 5 to 10 years more quickly. The average size of the turbines is still increasing, especially for offshore turbines, so the actual numbers of turbines would not increase much. The worldwide cost would be very roughly $20 billion per year, or 4 months of the War in Iraq -- to put things in perspective. I think it would fall to $10 billion or less as the project matured. 20 new fission plants per year would cost roughly $120 billion at first. This cost would also fall, naturally, but I doubt there is as much room for improvement as with wind. Also the clean-up cost for decommissioned nuclear plants is astronomical -- no one really has a handle on how much -- whereas it costs practically nothing to decommission a wind plant. (Actually, it can sometimes be done at a profit, because the steel is high grade scrap.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 09:56:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BGuNKX015998; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:56:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BGuKvc015964; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:56:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:56:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Langmuir & Mollar Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:56:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050711165608.GBQE7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have read Mollar and now Langmuir on dissociation of H2 and I can not find anything in the Langmuir paper which would have led Mollar to believe that the recombination was ou. Does anyone else see it? It is in a different publication from the May 4, 1912 document? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 10:01:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BH197j018427; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:01:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BH159V018387; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:01:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:01:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711125543.043be490 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:00:52 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Oops. Should be $90 billion, not $20 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711122213.043ba8a0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050711114741.043d2210 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050711122213.043ba8a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >The worldwide cost would be very roughly $20 billion per year, or 4 months >of the War in Iraq -- to put things in perspective. Oops. I must have dropped a factor of 4 or 5 somewhere. The actual "Wind Force 12 Plan" says the cost would come to 80 billion Euros per annum. The cost of generation in 2020 would be 2.45 Euro-cents/kWh, which would be cheaper than any alternative today, including coal or fission. But not unrealistically cheaper. This plan is an impressive 52-page document. See: http://www.ewea.org/documents/wf12-2005.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 10:49:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BHn9Tj018500; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:49:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BHn74w018476; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:49:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:49:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050711174853.0096f1f8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:48:53 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Langmuir & Mollar Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6BHmufT018355 Resent-Message-ID: <6iR7sD.A.lgE.SEr0CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:56 pm 11/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >I have read Mollar and now Langmuir on dissociation of H2 and I can not find anything in the Langmuir paper which would have led Mollar to believe that the recombination was ou. > >Does anyone else see it? It is in a different publication from the May 4, 1912 document? > > It seems to me that Moller was simply parroting Lyne as can be seen from the following extract quoted by Bearden at the end of the following web page:- http://cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm ====================================================== Quote from William Lyne's book "OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS: Tesla's Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal it" By William Lyne Second Revised Edition - Pages 84-88 ------------------------------------------------------ The atomic hydrogen reaction first came to my attention in 1964, when I was studying industrial processes at Sam Houston State University, in Huntsville, Texas, the year after taking an introductory course in college physics. While reviewing various welding processes in a textbook, my eyes fixed on an older process called "atomic hydrogen welding". By that time, the process was already considered "obsolete". To me, the process seemed valuable, not only because it produces such high temperatures---above 3400° F.---enough to melt tungsten---the highest temperatures producible by man---but is also "self-shielding", and can be used to weld diverse metals, often without flux, with a concentrated flame producing little heat distortion, when welding thin metal. In the process, 'normal' diatomic H2 is shot through an electric arc which dissociates it into "atomic" hydrogen, H1. This atomic hydrogen recombines at the (welded) metal surface, producing the very high heat. Though the process interested me then, and always has, I have never seen an atomic hydrogen welding unit for sale, for the 31 years hence. Industry's obvious excuse for laying the valuable process aside was that it had been 'replaced' by 'better' processes, such as Heliarc, TIG, and MIG welding, though they rarely mention "plasma arc welding", which has also almost disappeared from the market. Since plasma arc welding is merely an extension of the atomic hydrogen process, using a specially redesigned torch, the 'mysterious' reasons are undoubtedly the same. The process simmered in the inner recesses of my mind for a few years until 1976, when I rekindled my interest in the process for possible use in welding stainless steel and reducing and fusing platinum metal compounds, because hydrogen reduces such compounds (which must also be shielded from oxygen) to metals. The atomic hydrogen process does not rely upon the combustion of hydrogen with oxygen in the air, but upon the "atomic" energy released when atomic hydrogen recombines to form the 'normal', diatomic hydrogen. I still had some unanswered questions, since the various welding data at my disposal failed to mention sufficient specific details. If Nikola Tesla was right, then I am right, that the energy comes from the ether . Because I knew of no source from which to purchase an atomic hydrogen torch, I decided to build one, but my information was inadequate for proper construction. In the torch I made, the hydrogen gas entered the arc concentrically, around both electrodes, instead of passing through the arc at a right angle. I also used the wrong kind of arc transformer, so it didn't work as well as it should have. Despite the disappointment, I knew the torch would work better if I corrected the problems, so I kept the torch in my barn until better information and sufficient time was available. I excited the curiosity of the industrial spooks, when I rented a large tank of hydrogen at a local welder's supply, and this probably contributed to the sudden acceleration of the CIA-maintained judicial harassment I endured between 1974 and 1992 (18 years). They apparently assumed I was exploring the process for its energy potential, rather than for just welding, and they were correct. My torch is shown below: In the '70s, I had acquired an old English inorganic chemistry textbook l, purchased from Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory salvage for $.25, which contained a halftone photo of a '30s-vintage atomic hydrogen welding torch, along with some basic data. The torch shown was different from the one I constructed, in that it used a high voltage arc transformer, and had no mechanism to strike the arc electrodes together to start the arc, because the high voltage made it unnecessary. It also showed the gas passing at right angle through the arc. In this old textbook, it was stated at page 170 (emphasis mine), as follows: "Langmuir (1912) discovered that hydrogen at low pressure in contact with a tungsten wire heated by an electric current is dissociated to some extent into atoms:"...."This absorbs a large amount of energy, about 100 kcal. Per gram-molecule. " "... The atomic hydrogen formed is chemically very active. Atomic hydorgen is formed when an electric arc between tungsten electrodes is allowed to burn in hydrogen at atmospheric pressures (Fig. 106) ". The text continued: "Atomic-hydrogen blown out of the arc by a jet of molecular hydrogen across the arc, forms an intensely hot flame, capable of melting tungsten (m. Pt. 3400 o). This flame obtains its heat from recombination of hydrogen atoms to H2." "Hydrogen being set free in a chemical reaction is often more reactive than hydrogen gas." "...the activity of such nascent (newborn) hydrogen, in the act of liberation from its compounds, is due to the hydrogen being in the atomic state." In checking this data in a more recent Van Nostrand's Encyclopedia of Science z., at page 1311 it was stated in pertinent part: "Hydrogen molecule dissociate to atoms endothermically at high temperatures (heat of dissociation about 103 cal/gram mole) in an electric arc, or by irradiation." "...the hydrogen atoms recombine at the metal surface to provide heat required for welding." I was surprised to find this in the Van Nostrand encyclopedia, but I also found that in 1910, the D. Van Nostrand Company published a book by HaIler and Cunningham, entitled The High Frequency Coil, (The construction of a Tesla Coil for the advanced amateur. 119 pages), so there is a record of sorts, of Van Nostrand's association with Tesla. SMOKESCREENS FROM ACADEMIA It seemed odd to me that it was later suggested that the 103 calories of dissociation energy absorbed from a very brief exposure to the arc is the same heat as that "...required for welding" as described, and I believed it to be more reasonable that the excess heat had to come from "elsewhere". The dissociation energy would be analogical to a slice of bread ( 4 cal. gram), and the gross output would be equivalent to 60 loaves of bread (@1814 cal. lb.), calorie-wise. There was too much disparity between the two, with plenty of suspicious omissions and confusions, in an obvious attempt to cover up the truth in between. The older text showed the clearer construction of a device, and the newer text showed that only 103 cal./gram mole were required for dissociation, while the older text showed that 100,000 cal./gram mole were liberated on recombination. Only by jumping back and forth between the two sources was I able to put a complete documentation together, and discover the conflicts. It was apparent from the newer text, that the writers intended for us to believe that the final l00 k.cal./gram molecule heat---later upped to 109 k.cal/gram molecule---was absorbed from the arc, but the 103 cal./gram molecule dissociation heat figure showed a net 108,897 cal./gram molecule unexplained. If there are about 65 cubic centimeters per mole of hydrogen at its critical volume, it seemed highly unlikely that sufficient energy to weld could be absorbed from the 'dissociating arc', during the time required for 65 cubic centimeters of gas to pass from the orifice and through the arc. 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the heat energy contained in 60 loaves of bread---the "extra heat energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got bigger, and bigger, and........ Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was obvious that science was much more straightforward in the pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . ============================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 11:21:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BIL78Z003954; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:21:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BIL3oa003901; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:21:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:21:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Langmuir & Mollar Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:20:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050711182046.HROI7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > It seems to me that Moller was simply parroting Lyne as can > be seen from the following extract quoted by Bearden at the > end of the following web page:- > http://cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm Thank you! Now I see how they got their c and C mixed. You know, there is more energy where the H hits the metal and recombines as H2. The hydrogen also oxides, an exothermic process. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 11:57:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BIutNb025489; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:57:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BIuqJl025441; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:56:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:56:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050711185635.009a932c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:56:35 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Langmuir & Mollar Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:20 pm 11/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> It seems to me that Moller was simply parroting Lyne as can >> be seen from the following extract quoted by Bearden at the >> end of the following web page:- >> http://cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm > >Thank you! > >Now I see how they got their c and C mixed. Yeah! The printer's devil had been busy and some tired compositor put cal instead of kcal. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 12:11:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BJAwGM001003; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:11:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BJAlv4000901; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:10:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:10:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00dd01c5864c$2e9b66e0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050711182046.HROI7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Langmuir & Moller Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:10:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry and Frank, > Now I see how they got their c and C mixed. ...toll-ya-so... and I also corrected the al dente "subject line" Anyway, this atomic hydrogen business is all a smoke screen. There is almost zero atomic hydrogen being formed on a 2000K cathode. And this cathode is only that hot 5% of the time anyway. However... there is this huge unresolved "coincidence" of the MFP and the collisions-per-second within the gas being a harmonic of the 21 cm hydrogen line - as Fred (unwittingly ;- ) mentioned. Plus the (often ignored) fact that the tube MUST be kept cool - why? could it be simply to keep that "rate" i.e. the collisions-per-second rate stable and resonant. I'd be willing to bet that the exact number is not what Fred came up with, but something like 5.68 Ghz. IOW a true harmonic. If you look out in space on a dark night - that whole sky is being bathed in 21 cm radiation - admittedly of very low intensity in our 3-space but the totality of it in the universe is equivalent to trillions of suns blasting away. It is part and parcel of the ZPF. So once again, this gets back to the proton being a one-dimensional object and that all-important factoid may mean that the proton is the "gateway" to that all that cosmic radiation (i.e. 4-space radiation). That is, if the widely-held theory that 1-space and 4-space are connected, is somehow accurate. Oddly, it seems that even on vortex, anytime "dimensionality" is suggested, everyone wants to look the other-way and yawn - understandable - since this word can mean so many mysterious things that is usually scoffed-at; and certainly it is the catch-all and do-all for most every Sci-Fi plot to come down the pike (along with the similar idea of the dimensional "wormhole"). Fortunately, we have a very simple way to test this hypothesis - is there a RF signal coming off the anode at 1420 Mhz or a harmonic thereof ? Any bettors out there? My money is on 5.68 Ghz. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 13:18:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BKHQFn005348; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:17:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BKHFnx005222; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:17:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:17:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42D2D3BD.1090204 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:17:01 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Langmuir & Mollar References: <2.2.32.20050711174853.0096f1f8 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050711174853.0096f1f8 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have a couple very mundane questions about this. Grimer wrote: >====================================================== >Quote from William Lyne's book "OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS: >Tesla's Hidden Space Propulsion System and the >Conspiracy to Conceal it" >By William Lyne >Second Revised Edition - Pages 84-88 >------------------------------------------------------ > The atomic hydrogen reaction first came to my attention in 1964, when I was studying industrial processes at Sam Houston State University, in Huntsville, Texas, the year after taking an introductory course in college physics. While reviewing various welding processes in a textbook, my eyes fixed on an older process called "atomic hydrogen welding". By that time, the process was already considered "obsolete". > For sure?? I thought atomic hydrogen welding was still used, up to the present day, when really hot arcs were needed. No? >To me, the process seemed valuable, not only because it produces such high temperatures---above 3400° F.---enough to melt tungsten---the highest temperatures producible by man---but is also "self-shielding", and can be used to weld diverse metals, often without flux, with a concentrated flame producing little heat distortion, when welding thin metal. In the process, 'normal' diatomic H2 is shot through an electric arc which dissociates it into "atomic" hydrogen, H1. This atomic hydrogen recombines at the (welded) metal surface, producing the very high heat. Though th! > e process interested me then, and always has, I have never seen an atomic hydrogen welding unit for sale, for the 31 years hence. Industry's obvious excuse for laying the valuable process aside was that it had been 'replaced' by 'better' processes, such as Heliarc, TIG, and MIG welding, though they rarely mention "plasma arc welding", which has also almost disappeared from the market. Since plasma arc welding is merely an extension of the atomic hydrogen process, using a specially redesigned torch, the 'mysterious' reasons are undoubtedly the same. > > The process simmered in the inner recesses of my mind for a few years until 1976, when I rekindled my interest in the process for possible use in welding stainless steel and reducing and fusing platinum metal compounds, because hydrogen reduces such compounds (which must also be shielded from oxygen) to metals. The atomic hydrogen process does not rely upon the combustion of hydrogen with oxygen in the air, but upon the "atomic" energy released when atomic hydrogen recombines to form the 'normal', diatomic hydrogen. > Is this correct? My understanding of atomic hydrogen torches was that they used hydrogen _and_ oxygen, thus taking the hydrogen from monatomic state down to water, rather than leaving it as (still very active) H2. If not, why not? Is the flame so hot that it would disocciate water (and thus make the reaction run the wrong way)? He quotes 3400F, which, IIRC, is cool enough that hydrogen can still "burn" with oxygen -- it's somewhere around 3000C that water breaks down, which is considerably hotter than 3400F, of course. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 15:42:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BMfemr031296; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:41:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BMfcpY031270; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:41:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:41:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011c01c58669$a822ace0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: cipher of the day Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:41:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Until such time as we know with certainty, all of the following remarks should probably be prefaced with the disclaimer "assuming the posted measurements of JLN are correct".... Anyway, I think there is a good chance that they are not that far off, assuming that it is true that the filament resistance at 2000 K is one ohm....therefore.... moving on, and looking at the broad issue of resonance in the MAHG, we find three vastly different geometric scales. 1) The input frequency 40-51 Hz (modified by the low duty cycle 5%) 2) The collisional frequency of the H2 gas fill 5-10 Ghz 3) the heat frequency of the output - in the terahertz range What do you make of it, Watson? Is "coherency" the key.... More clues later, Jones "A cipher message, Holmes." My companion gave a sudden chuckle of comprehension. "And a very obscure cipher, Watson," said he. "Why, of course, it is French! "I believe you have hit it." "Not a doubt of it. It is a very urgent message, thrice repeated to make it more so. But beware of what? Wait a bit; he is coming to the window once more." Again we saw the dim silhouette of a crouching man and the whisk of the small flame across the window as the signals were renewed. They came more rapidly than before-so rapid that it was hard to follow them. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 16:40:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BNdOLf028105; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:39:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BNdNDd028087; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:39:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:39:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vtj5$10uaihf mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,280,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1105545775:sNHT23227640" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:38:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Can somebody offer a reasonable explanation as to why atomic hydrogen when it recombines doesn't blow itself apart in the act? If the amount of theorized "OU" heat generated during the recombination is a much as claimed how do the little beasties ever get a chance to successfully cleave, and obviously they do cleave! Doesn't make any sense to me. The only explanation I can come up with is that there may be some kind of a refractory period involved on the order of nanoseconds or less where recently recombined H2 is incapable of blowing apart no matter what the local heat might be. I'm not sure I buy this explanation. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 19:50:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6C2oFAl023299; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:50:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6C2oDBi023272; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:50:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:50:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c5868c$646c26c0$49027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Large increase in PV solar energy production Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:49:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C58662.7B1296E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C58662.7B1296E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C58662.7B1296E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C58662.7B1296E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Jed wrote.. >The "Wind Force 12 Plan" calls for wind power to supply 12% of world=20 >electricity by 2020. . . . The plan calls for 1,245,000 MW total wind=20 >capacity, 26 times more than we now have. I have wondered if anyone has built a windmill like the Schauberger = theme . Shortcut to: http://home5.swipnet.se/%7Ew-58759/windmill/windmill.html Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C58662.7B1296E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
  Jed wrote..
 
>The "Wind Force 12 Plan" calls for wind power to supply 12% of = world=20
>electricity by 2020. . . . The plan calls for 1,245,000 MW total = wind=20
>capacity, 26 times more than we now have.

I have wondered = if=20 anyone has built a windmill like the Schauberger theme .

Shortcut to: http:/= /home5.swipnet.se/%7Ew-58759/windmill/windmill.html

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C58662.7B1296E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C58662.7B1296E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c5868c$63ddf080$49027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C58662.7B1296E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 01:28:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6C8SQAe015521; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:28:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6C8SIR1015487; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:28:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:28:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:28:09 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <43vtj5$10uaihf mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <43vtj5$10uaihf mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200507121028.09268.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Am Dienstag, 12. Juli 2005 01:38 schrieb orionworks charter.net: > Can somebody offer a reasonable explanation as to why atomic hydrogen when > it recombines doesn't blow itself apart in the act? If the amount of > theorized "OU" heat generated during the recombination is a much as claimed > how do the little beasties ever get a chance to successfully cleave, and > obviously they do cleave! Actually, I think that they may blow apart, and recombine many times before coming to a stable diatomic state. This also could well be the reason for the excess energy. > > Doesn't make any sense to me. It does if you look at the cavitation bubble collapse phenomena. The bubble collapses and expands millions of times per second. I think the same thing may be happening to the monoatomic H in the Langmuir torch. > > The only explanation I can come up with is that there may be some kind of a > refractory period involved on the order of nanoseconds or less where > recently recombined H2 is incapable of blowing apart no matter what the > local heat might be. > My picture is of a somewhat variable elastic H atom that is able absorb and store some of the energy of the impact of H+H recombination but not enough to allow an H2 molecule to stay together until a sufficient amount of energy has been stored in the two individual atoms. It could well be that immediately after the initial dissociation, the H atoms have dropped to a lower energy state, "shrunk", as Dr. Mills describes it, and that it takes many repeated attempts at recombination before the two atoms have enough energy stored internally that they are able to permanently reunite. In the shrunken state, they are simply not elastic enough to absorb the impact and stay together. Another key to whether or not the two atoms stay together has to do with the distance traveled for them to reunite. As the two atoms approach each other, they are accelerating due to Casimir forces. With each successive attempt to reunite, a portion of the impact energy is internalized by the individual atoms, giving them more elasticity. The distance that they travel apart from each other upon blowing apart again is shorter, making the next attempt to reunite more likely for success until finally, a balance or equilibrium state is achieved. The individual H atoms cannot remain reunited until their internal energy states match exactly, and are sufficiently high enough to remain in equilibrium with the rest of the universe. Once they are in this state, gravity can hold them together. The excess energy is coming from the ether, and like the cavitation bubble, this could well be an ether pump. Has anyone ever done an energy audit on a bouncing ball? That is what the light measurements look like for a cavitation bubble collapse - short bursts that decrease in intensity with each successive bubble collapse. > I'm not sure I buy this explanation. I'm not sure that I buy my explanation either, but the price is right. Damped if you do, damped if you don't... Knuke > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 04:51:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CBoeB3025826; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:50:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CBobcT025798; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:50:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:50:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c586d7$e2c21cf0$88027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid.. Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:50:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C586AD.F96D4800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C586AD.F96D4800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C586AD.F96D4800" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C586AD.F96D4800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMichael Huffman wrote... >My picture is of a somewhat variable elastic H atom that is able absorb = and=20 store some of the energy of the impact of H+H recombination but not = enough to=20 allow an H2 molecule to stay together until a sufficient amount of = energy has=20 been stored in the two individual atoms. It could well be that = immediately=20 after the initial dissociation, the H atoms have dropped to a lower = energy=20 state, "shrunk", as Dr. Mills describes it, and that it takes many = repeated=20 attempts at recombination before the two atoms have enough energy stored = internally that they are able to permanently reunite. In the shrunken = state,=20 they are simply not elastic enough to absorb the impact and stay = together. Another key to whether or not the two atoms stay together has to do = with the=20 distance traveled for them to reunite. As the two atoms approach each = other,=20 they are accelerating due to Casimir forces. With each successive = attempt to=20 reunite, a portion of the impact energy is internalized by the = individual=20 atoms, giving them more elasticity. The distance that they travel apart = from=20 each other upon blowing apart again is shorter, making the next attempt = to=20 reunite more likely for success until finally, a balance or equilibrium = state=20 >is achieved.=20 Interesting vision and description of H2 events by Michael. Now consider = the atoms entering and exiting as being shaped like a vortex and the = picture would be remarkably similar to our observations of water = vortexes created in our plexiglas test tank. Not nearly as random in = formation and collapse as a casual observor would imagine. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C586AD.F96D4800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Michael Huffman wrote...

>My picture is of a somewhat variable elastic H atom that is able = absorb=20 and
store some of the energy of the impact of H+H recombination but = not=20 enough to
allow an H2 molecule to stay together until a sufficient = amount of=20 energy has
been stored in the two individual atoms.  It could = well be=20 that immediately
after the initial dissociation, the H atoms have = dropped to=20 a lower energy
state, "shrunk", as Dr. Mills describes it, and that = it takes=20 many repeated
attempts at recombination before the two atoms have = enough=20 energy stored
internally that they are able to permanently = reunite.  In=20 the shrunken state,
they are simply not elastic enough to absorb the = impact=20 and stay together.

 Another key to whether or not the two = atoms stay=20 together has to do with the
distance traveled for them to = reunite.  As=20 the two atoms approach each other,
they are accelerating due to = Casimir=20 forces.  With each successive attempt to
reunite, a portion of = the=20 impact energy is internalized by the individual
atoms, giving them = more=20 elasticity.  The distance that they travel apart from
each = other upon=20 blowing apart again is shorter, making the next attempt to
reunite = more=20 likely for success until finally, a balance or equilibrium state =
>is=20 achieved. 

 

Interesting vision and description of H2 events by Michael. Now = consider the=20 atoms entering and exiting as being shaped like a vortex  and the = picture=20 would be remarkably similar to our observations of = water vortexes=20 created in our plexiglas test tank. Not nearly as random in formation = and=20 collapse as a casual observor would imagine.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C586AD.F96D4800-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C586AD.F96D4800 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c586d7$e2328720$88027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C586AD.F96D4800-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 04:57:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CBuq7O028417; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:56:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CBuo5w028373; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:56:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:56:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=KhFoMucahsdEtj4MEV77ejFXGZXLcwTdFM6aJU4q8zKUDQn7u9cqMvooo2DRFhk+; Message-ID: <410-22005721210575330 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:57:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940046cb3d27ee2ff2f06d53387ef4922c1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.46 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Knuke Huffman wrote: > > My picture is of a somewhat variable elastic H atom that is able absorb and > store some of the energy of the impact of H+H recombination but not enough to > allow an H2 molecule to stay together until a sufficient amount of energy has > been stored in the two individual atoms. It could well be that immediately > after the initial dissociation, the H atoms have dropped to a lower energy > state, "shrunk", as Dr. Mills describes it, and that it takes many repeated > attempts at recombination before the two atoms have enough energy stored > internally that they are able to permanently reunite. > Actually the ZPE fluctuation seems to affect the electron almost as much as it does the proton, causing it to jiggle kind of like the old "tail wags the dog" effect: Surprisingly the electron momentum ( mv ) is almost equal to the proton momentum (MV) even though the proton's mass is 1836 times that of the proton. For instance, the momentum of the electron mv in the ground state Bohr orbit is 9.1E-31 x 2.189E6 = 1.99E-24 Kg-meters/sec while the 300 K "velocity" of the proton from 1/2 MV^2 = kT Solving for V , V = (kT?M)^1/2 = 1.58E3 meters/sec MV = 1.66E-27 * 1.58E3 = 2.62E-24 Kg-meters/sec This tends to square Jones Beene's contention that there is a strong tie between the 1.42 GHz ZPE (21 cm cosmic background) frequency and the collision frequency in the 80 Torr 5,400 K effective temperature of the H2 in the MAHG (0.95 GHz) = velocity/MFP ( H2 Collision Mean Free Path). If the "jiggle" is an RMS value tracking the ZPE fluctuations, minor adjustment (increasing the H2 fill pressure) would bring it dead on. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Knuke Huffman wrote:
>
> My picture is of a somewhat variable elastic H atom that is able absorb and
> store some of the energy of the impact of H+H recombination but not enough to
> allow an H2 molecule to stay together until a sufficient amount of energy has
> been stored in the two individual atoms.  It could well be that immediately
> after the initial dissociation, the H atoms have dropped to a lower energy
> state, "shrunk", as Dr. Mills describes it, and that it takes many repeated
> attempts at recombination before the two atoms have enough energy stored
> internally that they are able to permanently reunite.
>
Actually the ZPE fluctuation seems to affect the electron almost as much as it does the proton,
causing it to jiggle kind of like the old "tail wags the dog" effect:
 
Surprisingly the electron momentum ( mv ) is almost equal to  the
proton momentum (MV) even though the proton's mass is 1836 times
that of the proton.
For instance, the momentum of the electron mv in the ground state Bohr orbit
 
is 9.1E-31 x 2.189E6 = 1.99E-24    Kg-meters/sec
 
while the 300 K "velocity" of the proton from 1/2 MV^2 = kT    
 
Solving for V , V = (kT?M)^1/2 = 1.58E3 meters/sec
 
MV = 1.66E-27 * 1.58E3 = 2.62E-24  Kg-meters/sec
 
This tends to square Jones Beene's contention that there is a strong
tie between the 1.42 GHz ZPE (21 cm cosmic background)  frequency and the collision frequency
in the 80 Torr 5,400 K effective temperature of the H2 in the MAHG
(0.95 GHz)  = velocity/MFP  ( H2 Collision Mean Free Path).
If the "jiggle"  is an RMS value tracking the ZPE fluctuations,
minor adjustment (increasing the  H2 fill pressure) would
bring it dead on.
 
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 05:59:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CCxNrN030792; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:59:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CCxLhp030759; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:59:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:59:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Langmuir & Moller Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 8:59:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050712125908.VCWO7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > > Now I see how they got their c and C mixed. > > ...toll-ya-so... :-Þ Odd, the comparison to bread. I wonder if they mean white bread (spoken like a true type II diabetic). > and I also corrected the al dente "subject line" Well, it would have been amusing had I spelled it 'Molar'. > My money is on 5.68 Ghz. Why the third harmonic? Because of the cavity dimensions? Something close to 7 cm? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 06:00:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CD0BqO031347; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:00:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CCcTvq020392; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:38:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:38:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 8:38:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050712123804.USUL7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > If the "jiggle" is an RMS value tracking the ZPE fluctuations, > minor adjustment (increasing the H2 fill pressure) would > bring it dead on. Care to speculate as to the result of achieving such efficiency? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 06:48:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CDmDj2027301; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:48:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CDmB2p027271; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:48:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:48:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002501c586e8$4d1abde0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Is 2.5 Hz a "natural" energy frequency? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:47:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More rambling speculation... The earth's "natural" frequency has been stated to be ~7.8 Hertz (cycles per second) also known as the Schumann Resonance (actually 7.83 Hz ). All prior attempts to tap into it have failed. One wonders if 2.5 Hz is also natural to some (presumably larger) system like our sun or a nearby neutron star or black hole) - and if there is a coupling mechanism to smaller geometric scale? Googling "2.5 Hz " turns up lots of things relating to brain-waves, deep-sleep and clock escapements, but very little in the way of anything energy-related, other than gravity waves and a certain low-frequency artifact associated with black holes called QPOs. Lower-frequency QPOs are typically 1 to 10 hertz, and they're common in binary star systems with black holes or at least objects denser than a neutron star - the QPO could be the frequency of a *spacetime warp.* This part is real, folks: it is decidedly NOT Sci-Fi (but it would make a great sub-plot) ! However, the impossible part (seemingly) would be a coupling mechanism for low frequency cosmic gravity wave to a small earthbound device - unless it too is a function of the Hydrogen 21 cm resonance line. The low-frequency flickering coming from a dense stellar object could be caused by the fabric of space itself churning around in a wave. This is known as Lense-Thirring precession, which evolves out of Einstein's theory of general relativity. There are three other known objects in our galaxy, seemingly as dense as black holes but smaller, which have earned the "micro-quasar" name. One lies just 1,600 light-years from Earth on the way to the center of the Milky Way in the direction of the constellation Sagittarius. These are "exotic" but nevertheless potential energy sources - which probably have a strong 4-spatial component - but if they could be taped on earth, it would take a very serendipitous discovery.... probably involving the proton at a coherent frequency. ...perhaps a large vacuum tube, of a "lucky" size and just the right hydrogen fill ;-) Anyway, it is unclear if a 51 Hz base frequency and a 4.9-5 % duty factor really works out to an "effective" 2.5 Hz frequency, using this particular signal generator - but if it does, there does not seem to be any obvious "non-exotic" significance (other than pink noise from the 50 Hz mains)...? Will you settle for exotic? Didn't think so. Electronic "noise", in general, is related indirectly to 2.5 Hz - i.e. random fluctuations in voltage (or current) the "hiss" we hear between stations on an FM tuner, the "snow" we see when we tune a TV to an unused channel. The "whiteness" or the "pinkness" of noise describes how the energy is distributed in frequency. White noise is noise whose distribution is constant per cycle of bandwidth. Pink noise is noise whose energy distribution is constant per percentage bandwidth. In other words, a 5% band at 50 Hz (which is 2.5 Hz wide) will have the same amount of energy as a 5% bandwidth at other frequency. That is not really saying much as to why 2.5 Hz could be important here other than being pink noise from the local mains (unlikely). I like the exotic gravity wave, very "remote" possibility... or better yet - just straight-forward direct coupling to the CMB (cosmic microwave background). If anyone happens to be lucky enough to the right stuff laying around(i.e. a tube of 21 cm length by 5.24 cm dia) - I'm sure that Fred could give you the correct fill pressure for the parameters ;-)... the problem being that it probably must be actively cooled and heated at the same time to reach an internal coherency level! One thing is apparent from looking at the testing... JLN has played around with these frequency and duty factor details quite a lot in fine-tuning, presumably trying to get the highest efficiency. And this 2.5 Hz could be the result, for whatever reason. Jones BTW if there is a coupling mechanism between some exotic gravity wave and hydrogen gas at ~80 torr, is there any place where one might expect to see large scale evidence of such an effect - in terms of energy being "coupled" but in a place where it shouldn't be? Well, there is the aurora borealis but not much hydrogen in it - however both Jupiter and Saturn have a blue corona "aureole" around them.... and it is mostly hydrogen, and with no obvious power source for the blue light emission other than our sun, which seems too far away. Our sun's corona anomaly is a harder to speculate on - as it could be powered by radiation from the stellar core plus something else, such as by hydrinos as Mills says, and who know that there could be other energy components as well. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 07:08:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CE7tnw007879; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:08:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CE7q2Q007847; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:07:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:07:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$16it6t9 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,283,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1294900137:sNHT23157378" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:07:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Michael Huffman ... > The individual H atoms cannot remain reunited until > their internal energy states match exactly, and are > sufficiently high enough to remain in equilibrium with > the rest of the universe. Once they are in this > state, gravity can hold them together. Gravity? I thought covalent sharing of electrons was responsible for the bonds that "glue" H2 together. > > Damped if you do, damped if you don't... > Knuke I almost didn't catch that. ;-) Dyslexics are notorious for seeing what they want to see in what they read. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 07:37:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CEasR2025235; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:37:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CEakaG025178; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:36:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:36:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=dBIyTG4TvL/Daq7mICypXecjgp1/d2Ik7ZLtltwKsZ7Q8AhMKoUwgHPdHa9Z9txN; Message-ID: <410-22005721213340770 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Is 2.5 Hz a "natural" energy frequency? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:34:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f23d350d4ec096d0173cba8a08b61a82350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.202 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Is 2.5 Hz a "natural" energy frequency? > Of Course. That should be the Natural Cosmic Frequency. All other frequencies (even the Bohr Orbit frequencies > 6E15 Hz are contained in low frequencies. It IS NOT Electromagnetic, the electromagnetic frequencies are due to it's jiggling of charge. No? Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: vortex > Date: 7/12/05 8:48:18 AM > Subject: Is 2.5 Hz a "natural" energy frequency? > > More rambling speculation... > > The earth's "natural" frequency has been stated to be ~7.8 Hertz > (cycles per second) also known as the Schumann Resonance (actually > 7.83 Hz ). All prior attempts to tap into it have failed. One > wonders if 2.5 Hz is also natural to some (presumably larger) > system like our sun or a nearby neutron star or black hole) - and > if there is a coupling mechanism to smaller geometric scale? > > Googling "2.5 Hz " turns up lots of things relating to > brain-waves, deep-sleep and clock escapements, but very little in > the way of anything energy-related, other than gravity waves and a > certain low-frequency artifact associated with black holes called > QPOs. Lower-frequency QPOs are typically 1 to 10 hertz, and > they're common in binary star systems with black holes or at least > objects denser than a neutron star - the QPO could be the > frequency of a *spacetime warp.* > > This part is real, folks: it is decidedly NOT Sci-Fi (but it would > make > a great sub-plot) ! However, the impossible part (seemingly) would > be a coupling mechanism for low frequency cosmic gravity wave to a > small earthbound device - unless it too is a function of the > Hydrogen 21 cm resonance line. > > The low-frequency flickering coming from a dense stellar object > could be caused by the fabric of space itself churning around in > a wave. This is known as Lense-Thirring precession, which evolves > out of Einstein's theory of general relativity. There are three > other known objects in our galaxy, seemingly as dense as black > holes but smaller, which have earned the "micro-quasar" name. One > lies just 1,600 light-years from Earth on the way to the center of > the Milky Way in the direction of the constellation Sagittarius. > > These are "exotic" but nevertheless potential energy sources - > which probably have a strong 4-spatial component - but if they > could be taped on earth, it would take a very serendipitous > discovery.... probably involving the proton at a coherent > frequency. > > ...perhaps a large vacuum tube, of a "lucky" size and just the > right hydrogen fill ;-) > > Anyway, it is unclear if a 51 Hz base frequency and a 4.9-5 % duty > factor really works out to an "effective" 2.5 Hz frequency, using > this > particular signal generator - but if it does, there does not seem > to be any obvious "non-exotic" significance (other than pink noise > from the 50 Hz mains)...? Will you settle for exotic? > > Didn't think so. Electronic "noise", in general, is related > indirectly to 2.5 Hz - i.e. random fluctuations in voltage (or > current) the "hiss" we > hear between stations on an FM tuner, the "snow" we see when we > tune a TV to an unused channel. The "whiteness" or the "pinkness" > of noise describes how the energy is distributed in frequency. > White noise is noise whose distribution is constant per cycle of > bandwidth. Pink noise is noise whose energy distribution is > constant per > percentage bandwidth. In other words, a 5% band at 50 Hz > (which is 2.5 Hz wide) will have the same amount of energy as a 5% > bandwidth at other frequency. That is not really saying much as to > why 2.5 Hz could be important here other than being pink noise > from the local mains (unlikely). I like the exotic gravity wave, > very "remote" possibility... or better yet - just straight-forward > direct coupling to the CMB (cosmic microwave background). > > If anyone happens to be lucky enough to the right stuff laying > around(i.e. a tube of 21 cm length by 5.24 cm dia) - I'm sure that > Fred could give you the correct fill pressure for the parameters > ;-)... the problem being that it probably must be actively cooled > and heated at the same time to reach an internal coherency level! > > One thing is apparent from looking at the testing... JLN has > played around with these frequency and duty factor details quite a > lot in fine-tuning, presumably trying to get the highest > efficiency. And this 2.5 Hz > could be the result, for whatever reason. > > Jones > > BTW if there is a coupling mechanism between some exotic gravity > wave and hydrogen gas at ~80 torr, is there any place where one > might expect to see large scale evidence of such an effect - in > terms of > energy being "coupled" but in a place where it shouldn't be? > > Well, there is the aurora borealis but not much hydrogen in it - > however both Jupiter and Saturn have a blue corona "aureole" > around them.... and it is mostly hydrogen, and with no obvious > power source for the blue light emission other than our sun, which > seems too far away. Our sun's corona anomaly is a harder to > speculate on - as it could be powered by radiation from the > stellar core plus something else, such as by hydrinos as Mills > says, and who know that there could be other energy components as > well. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 08:00:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CF04xn006999; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:00:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CEo2bX031643; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:50:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:50:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=r6sY2r+USp4vuJ8N3vU+4Wj8lQORMZzumDz7LsQlSgHU22LvtFq5H7PwKZ54Vyig; Message-ID: <410-220057212135021850 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:50:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406b492523ce7cde93fbe0bef28e327366350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.88 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Terry Blanton" wrote > > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > If the "jiggle" is an RMS value tracking the ZPE fluctuations, > > minor adjustment (increasing the H2 fill pressure) would > > bring it dead on. > > Care to speculate as to the result of achieving such efficiency? I'd rather not. Speculative "Sand Castles" tend to get swept away by "Reality Waves". :-) Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 08:25:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CFOXq3021442; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:24:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CFOUO4021403; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:24:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:24:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Is 2.5 Hz a "natural" energy frequency? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:24:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050712152416.YRAI7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > More rambling speculation... Build your own ELF receiver: http://www.anomalous-images.com/elf/elf_receiver.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 08:34:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CFYB4f026504; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:34:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CFY626026444; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:34:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:34:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c586f7$1cce3f90$3d037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Is 2.5 Hz a "Natural" energy... Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:33:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C586CD.3374AFB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C586CD.3374AFB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C586CD.33763650" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C586CD.33763650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. >is there any place where one might expect to see large scale evidence of such an effect - in=20 terms of energy being "coupled" but in a place where it shouldn't be? Yes Jones.. Arctic and antarctic. Shouldn't be snowpacks that deep. = Can't happen. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C586CD.33763650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

>is there any place where one
might expect to see large scale = evidence=20 of such an effect - in
terms of
energy being "coupled" but in a = place=20 where it shouldn't be?

 

Yes Jones.. Arctic and antarctic. Shouldn't be snowpacks that deep. = Can't=20 happen.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C586CD.33763650-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C586CD.3374AFB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c586f7$1c418ff0$3d037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C586CD.3374AFB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 08:38:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CFbqar029039; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:37:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CFboig029014; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:37:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:37:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Langmuir & Moller Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:37:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050712153733.YZFF7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Any bettors out there? My money is on 5.68 Ghz. I posted the following on the JLN Labs list: "We have been speculating on the source of ou the MAHG on another list. I noticed that Jean-Louis took some measurements of ionizing radiation, a wise move for his own personal safety. Is there someone on the list who is in contact with Jean-Louis who could ask him to measure the radio frequency energy (if any) emitted from the MAHG? Of particular interest is 1.42 and 5.68 GHz." My messages are getting through. It's moderated and usually takes 24 hours to post. Still lots of requests for schematics on the list. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 10:51:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CHotXO011007; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:51:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CHoiiX010801; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:50:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:50:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006801c5870a$230e7560$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: Subject: Old BLP attempted replicaton Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:50:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those who have not seen it, here is Scott Little's attempted replication of the BLP gas phase experiment is similar to MAHG. http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/blp/prelim.html Actually the index with many photos is here: http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/blp/ The replication was considered a failure, although there were glimpses of anomalous heat, BUT the main differences between this and MAHG are 1) the much lower pressure 2 torr vs. 80 torr 2) the full duty power vs. the low duty power. 3) the much higher cell temperature IF there is no measurement error in MAHG - and no one at GIFNET believes that there is (at least as of 6/12/05) then we are left to surmise that these three factors above are critical to the success. Jones IOW we are left with more questions than answers. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 12:14:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CJE4Sk001537; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:14:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CJDsfp001394; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:13:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:13:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [Humor] New Element Discovered Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:13:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050712191321.DUVM7514.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Found on Sarfatti's list: New Discovery A major research institution has recently announced the discovery of the heaviest element yet known to science. The new element has been named - Governmentium. Governmentium has one neutron, 12 assistant neutrons, 75 deputy neutrons, and 11 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312. These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton like particles called peons. Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected, because it impedes every action with which it comes into contact. A minute amount of Governmentium causes a reaction to take four days to complete, when it would normally take less than a second. Governmentium has a normal half-life of 4 years. It does not decay, but instead under-goes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places. In fact, Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time since each reorganization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes. This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a certain quantity in concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as "Critical Morass." When catalyzed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium - an element which radiates just as much energy as Governmentium since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 12:23:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CJMXhm007246; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:22:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CJMW97007226; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:22:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:22:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ab01c58717$026de040$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: Subject: FWIW Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:22:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of Tungsten anomalies.... Back in '22... ah yes, I remember it well... a few years before Irving Langmuir and his infamous torch .... Gerald Wendt and Clarence Irion of the University of Chicago, then an institution ranking with Harvard and Berkeley in prestige, reported their "Experimental Attempts to Decompose Tungsten at High Temperatures" to a meeting of the American Chemical Society in Illinois in April 1922. Wendt and Irion claimed to have completely disintegrated tungsten wire into helium by means of a high-voltage discharge in glass bulbs. Did you latch onto the "completely" part? In the mean of 21 experiments, 1.01 cc of helium was obtained from a wire length of 39.62 mm with a weight of 0.713 mg, exploded with 29.6 kilovolts. The procedure consisted of charging a condensor to 100 Kv and discharging it at high speed through an extremely fine wire. No smoke or other residue was ever found after the explosions. Hmmm.... I don't buy it (this was 1922).... BUT... is there a "kernel of truth" in there somewhere regarding the stability of W under electrical discharge? Wendt, Gerald & Irion, Clarence: "J. Amer. Chem. Soc." 44 (9): 1887-1894 (September 1922); "Experimental Attempts to Decompose Tungsten at High Temperatures" Wendt, Gerald: "Science" 55 (1430): 567-568 (21 April 1922); "The Decomposition of Tungsten" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 14:24:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CLNPSS014046; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:23:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CLNHR0013905; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:23:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:23:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c58727$cd37fd00$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Fusion is easy Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:22:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4d4vDB.A.KZD._SD1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How long will it be before the $20 billion ITER produces as many fusion neutrons as this way-cool Fusor built by El Dr. Frank? Look at the dome, halfway down - yup, you guessed it.... this is a glass salad bowl inverted in a machined out mag. tire rim. with lots of second hand parts in the PS http://www.cientificosaficionados.com/TBO/fusor/fusor.htm I am still ROTFL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 14:53:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CLqZiv029279; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:52:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CLqX5J029266; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:52:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:52:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fusion is easy Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:52:22 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <001101c58727$cd37fd00$6801a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001101c58727$cd37fd00$6801a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507122352.22831.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, You might also notice the complete lack of any kind of shielding on this rig. The circuit board for the He3 detector looks like some of the reefer plumbing that was done on the Polar Bear - totally incomprehensible. By the looks of the workbench, Dr. Frank may have worked on the Polar Bear before me, and possibly even The Greatful Dead. This is great stuff, Jones. We can all sleep tonight knowing that the world has been saved from an energy shortage! Knuke Am Dienstag, 12. Juli 2005 23:22 schrieb Jones Beene: > How long will it be before the $20 billion ITER produces as many > fusion neutrons as this way-cool Fusor built by El Dr. Frank? > > Look at the dome, halfway down - > > yup, you guessed it.... this is a glass salad bowl inverted in a > machined out mag. tire rim. with lots of second hand parts in the > PS > > http://www.cientificosaficionados.com/TBO/fusor/fusor.htm > > I am still ROTFL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 15:07:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CM6cGJ003827; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:06:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CM6YBX003769; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:06:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:06:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c5872d$eadb0ef0$6801a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001101c58727$cd37fd00$6801a8c0 NuDell> <200507122352.22831.knuke@sumosound.de> Subject: Re: Fusion is easy Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:06:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke, I think "reefer" may be the operative word with El Dr. Frank... Jones after all it is in Copenhagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Huffman" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Fusion is easy > Jones, > > You might also notice the complete lack of any kind of shielding > on this rig. > The circuit board for the He3 detector looks like some of the > reefer plumbing > that was done on the Polar Bear - totally incomprehensible. By > the looks of > the workbench, Dr. Frank may have worked on the Polar Bear > before me, and > possibly even The Greatful Dead. This is great stuff, Jones. > We can all > sleep tonight knowing that the world has been saved from an > energy shortage! > > Knuke > > Am Dienstag, 12. Juli 2005 23:22 schrieb Jones Beene: >> How long will it be before the $20 billion ITER produces as >> many >> fusion neutrons as this way-cool Fusor built by El Dr. Frank? >> >> Look at the dome, halfway down - >> >> yup, you guessed it.... this is a glass salad bowl inverted in >> a >> machined out mag. tire rim. with lots of second hand parts in >> the >> PS >> >> http://www.cientificosaficionados.com/TBO/fusor/fusor.htm >> >> I am still ROTFL > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 15:42:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6CMgAZd023097; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:42:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6CMg581023036; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:42:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:42:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:41:43 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <4403b0$16it6t9 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4403b0$16it6t9 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507130041.43400.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Am Dienstag, 12. Juli 2005 16:07 schrieb orionworks charter.net: > Gravity? > > I thought covalent sharing of electrons was responsible for the bonds that > "glue" H2 together. Moin Steve, It is called a covalent bond depending on which context or subset of the language of chemistry or physics that you are using, but yes, gravity is what is generally accepted as being what permeates space and holds everything together. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 12 18:19:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6D1IXI3011377; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6D1IWrP011362; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jMm/GhWc539bA+l2BOsWQbDdZ8Py/OlgFkMxvtVeJ8auCFHuGl07hS4W0JTgpGeB78sYhxbJBLjZDMEkvqcNw9/ghikkz3Qh6DzG/XHItsAFbkgtxINjbQ1BVv/crXyWbTa5SlYFNV8vdoRMgFf+wU+8Zpim7+hzMNIrednyYQo= ; Message-ID: <20050713011819.59776.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Fusion is easy To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001101c58727$cd37fd00$6801a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1408991018-1121217499=:58408" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1408991018-1121217499=:58408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jones, It does look like a salad bowl. Farnsworth only used a small bell jar, so this guy must have taste but did he clean out all the blue cheese first? Actually it looks pretty cool, however the larger the vacuum chamber, the harder it is to trigger fusion and the plasma does not look very bright. I am not criticizing, just observing - besides, I can only read English (most of the time). Chris Jones Beene wrote: How long will it be before the $20 billion ITER produces as many fusion neutrons as this way-cool Fusor built by El Dr. Frank? Look at the dome, halfway down - yup, you guessed it.... this is a glass salad bowl inverted in a machined out mag. tire rim. with lots of second hand parts in the PS http://www.cientificosaficionados.com/TBO/fusor/fusor.htm I am still ROTFL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1408991018-1121217499=:58408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Jones,
 
It does look like a salad bowl. Farnsworth only used a small bell jar, so this guy must have taste but did he clean out all the blue cheese first? Actually it looks pretty cool, however the larger the vacuum chamber, the harder it is to trigger fusion and the plasma does not look very bright. I am not criticizing, just observing - besides, I can only read English (most of the time).
 
Chris

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
How long will it be before the $20 billion ITER produces as many
fusion neutrons as this way-cool Fusor built by El Dr. Frank?

Look at the dome, halfway down -

yup, you guessed it.... this is a glass salad bowl inverted in a
machined out mag. tire rim. with lots of second hand parts in the
PS

http://www.cientificosaficionados.com/TBO/fusor/fusor.htm

I am still ROTFL

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1408991018-1121217499=:58408-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 02:44:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6D9iUxL021778; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:44:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6D9iSqN021761; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:44:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:44:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mFOFCT/TW4uq5MmroQe2BsDgGS1c++nNBF9xyjHjSTtMDEho1Ofcj6wrup95UTf3; Message-ID: <410-22005731384428490 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:44:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407a38d17a7e1ebcbbca09ab6a39d6cc3b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.217 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Knuke Huffman wrote: > > Another key to whether or not the two atoms stay together has to do with the > distance traveled for them to reunite. As the two atoms approach each other, > they are accelerating due to Casimir forces. With each successive attempt to > reunite, a portion of the impact energy is internalized by the individual > atoms, giving them more elasticity. > The Lennard-Jones Potential graph at this link illustrates what you're getting at, Knuke. http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/images/image01.gif One might go a step further and suggest that the short-range Casimir Force is working in conjunction with the heat-induced Hard-Ball Collision force to push the two atoms of the H2 molecule together (like compressing a spring). This also points to an explanation as to why pulsed heating of the MAHG is required. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Knuke Huffman wrote:
>
>  Another key to whether or not the two atoms stay together has to do with the
> distance traveled for them to reunite.  As the two atoms approach each other,
> they are accelerating due to Casimir forces.  With each successive attempt to
> reunite, a portion of the impact energy is internalized by the individual
> atoms, giving them more elasticity.
>
The Lennard-Jones Potential graph at this link illustrates what you're getting
at, Knuke.
 
 
One might go a step further and suggest that the short-range Casimir Force
is working in conjunction with the heat-induced Hard-Ball Collision force to push the two
atoms of the H2 molecule together (like compressing a spring).
 
This also points to an explanation as to  why pulsed heating of the MAHG is required.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 04:39:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DBdGYu016635; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:39:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DBdE1D016612; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:39:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:39:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TcApIc7twXK5/7uSX9aUfH0ubsRn6MacYtqa0r8KHxUE4KGPNsw30NMAqOcq7ylu; Message-ID: <410-220057313103931920 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:39:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94020a0da3a63eed2160d302a1154dd9238350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.155 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Summing up the MAHG parameters: 300 K fill pressure 80 Torr Filament: 2.5E-4 meters dia x 0.1 meters long ~0.1 ohms 300 K ~1.13 ohms @ 2000 K Filament Power Aprox. 127 watts 2000 K (12 Volts D.C.) Filament Power Aprox 6.4 watts 5% duty cycle. Temp < 2000 K ? Aprox. MAHG volume 500 cm^3 Number of H2 molecules in chamber ~ 1.42E21 H2 Molecular Radius 1.16E-10 meters H2 Molecule Collision Mean Free Path (MFP) ~ 7.0E-3 Meters Aprox. temperature per H2 molecule 100 watts, 0.44 eV or 5,120 Deg K H2 Molecular Velocity 300 K ~ 1.58E3 meters per second H2 Molecular Velocity 5,120 deg K ~ 6.52E3 meters per second H2-H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 300 K ~ 2.24E5 per second H2- H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 5,120 deg K ~ 9.25E5 per second Subject to criticism. :-) Frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 7/13/05 4:44:38 AM Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? Knuke Huffman wrote: > > Another key to whether or not the two atoms stay together has to do with the > distance traveled for them to reunite. As the two atoms approach each other, > they are accelerating due to Casimir forces. With each successive attempt to > reunite, a portion of the impact energy is internalized by the individual > atoms, giving them more elasticity. > The Lennard-Jones Potential graph at this link illustrates what you're getting at, Knuke. http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/images/image01.gif One might go a step further and suggest that the short-range Casimir Force is working in conjunction with the heat-induced Hard-Ball Collision force to push the two atoms of the H2 molecule together (like compressing a spring). This also points to an explanation as to why pulsed heating of the MAHG is required. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Summing up the MAHG parameters:
 
300 K fill pressure 80 Torr
 
Filament:  2.5E-4 meters dia x 0.1 meters long
~0.1 ohms 300 K   ~1.13 ohms @ 2000 K
 
Filament Power Aprox.   127 watts   2000 K   (12 Volts D.C.)
Filament Power Aprox 6.4 watts 5% duty cycle.  Temp < 2000 K ?
 
Aprox. MAHG volume 500 cm^3
Number of H2 molecules in chamber ~ 1.42E21
H2 Molecular Radius 1.16E-10 meters
H2 Molecule Collision Mean Free Path  (MFP) ~ 7.0E-3 Meters
Aprox. temperature per H2 molecule   100 watts,  0.44 eV or 5,120 Deg K
H2 Molecular Velocity   300 K   ~ 1.58E3 meters per second
H2 Molecular Velocity   5,120 deg K ~ 6.52E3 meters per second
H2-H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 300 K  ~ 2.24E5 per second
H2- H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 5,120 deg K ~ 9.25E5 per second
 
Subject to criticism.   :-)
 
Frederick
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 7/13/05 4:44:38 AM
Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart?

Knuke Huffman wrote:
>
>  Another key to whether or not the two atoms stay together has to do with the
> distance traveled for them to reunite.  As the two atoms approach each other,
> they are accelerating due to Casimir forces.  With each successive attempt to
> reunite, a portion of the impact energy is internalized by the individual
> atoms, giving them more elasticity.
>
The Lennard-Jones Potential graph at this link illustrates what you're getting
at, Knuke.
 
 
One might go a step further and suggest that the short-range Casimir Force
is working in conjunction with the heat-induced Hard-Ball Collision force to push the two
atoms of the H2 molecule together (like compressing a spring).
 
This also points to an explanation as to  why pulsed heating of the MAHG is required.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 05:17:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DCHGpR003317; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:17:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DCHEkx003274; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:17:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:17:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=F5VSRmoIw5EEasZxslvImz6UXo2ibuRGqbe4EGLGaCTl8NabTjnSkHrWFqN0JoVD; Message-ID: <410-220057313111730990 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:17:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94032d734bc1c515077300e3c67a4e2c0f2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.226 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Summing up the MAHG parameters: 300 K fill pressure 80 Torr Filament: 2.5E-4 meters dia x 0.1 meters long ~0.1 ohms 300 K ~1.13 ohms @ 2000 K Filament Power Aprox. 127 watts 2000 K (12 Volts D.C.) Filament Power Aprox 6.4 watts 5% duty cycle. Temp < 2000 K ? Aprox. MAHG volume 500 cm^3 Number of H2 molecules in chamber ~ 1.42E21 H2 Molecular Radius 1.16E-10 meters H2 Molecule Collision Mean Free Path (MFP) ~ 1.1E-6 Meters * Aprox. temperature per H2 molecule 100 watts, 0.44 eV or 5,120 Deg K H2 Molecular Velocity 300 K ~ 1.58E3 meters per second H2 Molecular Velocity 5,120 deg K ~ 6.52E3 meters per second H2-H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 300 K ~ 1.43E9 per second H2- H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 5,120 deg K ~ 6.0E9 per second * MFP Based on CRC Handbook Data: 8.81E-5 Meters 1.0 Torr for H2 Does the Casimir Force "track" the ZPE frequency? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
Summing up the MAHG parameters:
 
300 K fill pressure 80 Torr
 
Filament:  2.5E-4 meters dia x 0.1 meters long
~0.1 ohms 300 K   ~1.13 ohms @ 2000 K
 
Filament Power Aprox.   127 watts   2000 K   (12 Volts D.C.)
Filament Power Aprox 6.4 watts 5% duty cycle.  Temp < 2000 K ?
 
Aprox. MAHG volume 500 cm^3
Number of H2 molecules in chamber ~ 1.42E21
H2 Molecular Radius 1.16E-10 meters
H2 Molecule Collision Mean Free Path  (MFP) ~ 1.1E-6 Meters *
Aprox. temperature per H2 molecule   100 watts,  0.44 eV or 5,120 Deg K
H2 Molecular Velocity   300 K   ~ 1.58E3 meters per second
H2 Molecular Velocity   5,120 deg K ~ 6.52E3 meters per second
H2-H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 300 K  ~ 1.43E9 per second
H2- H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 5,120 deg K ~ 6.0E9 per second
 
* MFP  Based on CRC Handbook Data:  8.81E-5 Meters  1.0 Torr  for H2
 
Does the Casimir Force "track" the ZPE frequency?
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 05:27:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DCRGj3007707; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:27:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DCRFsL007702; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:27:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:27:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42D50868.6040800 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:26:16 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG: How does H2 avoid constantly itself blowing apart? References: <43vtj5$10uaihf mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <43vtj5$10uaihf mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Can somebody offer a reasonable explanation as to why atomic hydrogen when it recombines doesn't blow itself apart in the act? > > Since the molecule ends up in a lower energy state than the two separate atoms were in, taken together, and since the whole package can't just take off at higher velocity due to conservation of momentum, I just assumed it did the same thing a single atom does when it drops to a lower energy state: It radiates it away. You can view it as a three-body interaction, I think: Two H atoms, and a photon which carries away the energy. This is presumably related to the fact that the flame of a burning gas glows with a characteristic set of frequencies which doesn't depend on anything except the gasses which are combining (color of the flame doesn't vary depending on ambient temperature). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 06:44:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DDhj8j016449; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:43:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DDhhgv016420; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:43:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:43:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002b01c587b0$d855e970$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" Cc: References: <410-220057313111730990 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:43:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, The main problem which is still lingering is the lack of direct confirmation about the low power input, and the lack of a schematic. This could relate to being 'holiday' season in Europe. But when you look at the test reports, when JLN runs the device on full DC power, he is able to input 1324 watts, which seemingly couldn't happen if this power was all going to a filament with a resistance higher than an ohm. Plus even then (full DC) he is getting out only 70% of the input as heat - where is the rest of the heat going? Conversely if George Holz's theory about the power measurments were correct, when he was using the 50 % duty in the early testing but yet the OU was still strong even if you double the input power- or when he went to 5% but was getting only 5-1 OU , then it should have been 20-1 even then and not 5-1, so George's objection is also a little shaky from that standpoint - if the reciprocal of the duty is the measurement problem - the point being that ,there seems to be little way to logically account for all this. I suspect that shortly, in a few weeks hopefully, independent testing will either confirm his results, or relegate MAHG to the category of yet another false alarm .... Summing up the MAHG parameters: 300 K fill pressure 80 Torr Filament: 2.5E-4 meters dia x 0.1 meters long ~0.1 ohms 300 K ~1.13 ohms @ 2000 K Filament Power Aprox. 127 watts 2000 K (12 Volts D.C.) Filament Power Aprox 6.4 watts 5% duty cycle. Temp < 2000 K ? Aprox. MAHG volume 500 cm^3 Number of H2 molecules in chamber ~ 1.42E21 H2 Molecular Radius 1.16E-10 meters H2 Molecule Collision Mean Free Path (MFP) ~ 1.1E-6 Meters * Aprox. temperature per H2 molecule 100 watts, 0.44 eV or 5,120 Deg K H2 Molecular Velocity 300 K ~ 1.58E3 meters per second H2 Molecular Velocity 5,120 deg K ~ 6.52E3 meters per second H2-H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 300 K ~ 1.43E9 per second H2- H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 5,120 deg K ~ 6.0E9 per second * MFP Based on CRC Handbook Data: 8.81E-5 Meters 1.0 Torr for H2 Does the Casimir Force "track" the ZPE frequency? Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 06:47:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DDlJ6K018352; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:47:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DDlHmA018312; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:47:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:47:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <44038l$16rmqdf mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,287,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1304127919:sNHT736442412" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Suspect In Norwich Killing Has Probable Cause Hearing Today Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 9:46:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1VBNdD.A.8dE.jtR1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FYI, http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.aspx?re=2582C7CF-6F58-468E-B7BD-D662698BAB9D http://tinyurl.com/b7cm8 Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 07:23:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DEMUmv005048; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:22:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DEMSZb004999; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:22:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:22:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c587b6$3fb43720$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: "Ken Shoulders" Subject: New Papers Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:22:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ken Shoulder has some new papers out on his site, focusing on "fluidized electrons": http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Electromagnetic%20Pulse%20Source%20Using%20Fluidized%20Electrons.pdf Some observers might opine that the military overtones of this research are alarming. Not really. Realistically, the military always will get involved with any-and-all technologies involving high energy. You can work with them or work against them, but they are always there. What is surprising is that they haven't jumped onto EVOs before now. Perhaps finding a 'general' funding resource through DARPA, but with the more worthy (don't ask, don't tell) long-term agenda being related to solving the energy crisis, is not such a bad idea. Although Ken doesn't mention it directly in the paper, to me the idea of compressing fluidized electrons looks like a perfect fit for the Winterberg inspired route to fusion. Twenty years ago everyone thought ICF was going to be the easy route to solving the energy crisis (which was looming in the minds of many observers even then)... yet ICF was lacking a key element back then - was it the EVO ? http://physics.unr.edu/faculty/winterberg/ http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/fall%202003/interview.html The Shoulder's process results in "large quantities of ejected electrons with velocities in excess of 50 KeV from an EVO formed at less than 2 KeV. This transformation of velocity is likely related to an instability producing an electronic ramming effect similar to those reported in the literature. As an example, Raudorf [6] has cited a case whereby 15 KeV electrons injected into a traveling wave tube configuration produced up to 17 megavolt electrons after undergoing impaction with a space charge region in the tube." Sounds like a way to achieve ICF easily to me.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 07:56:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DEtQkA024423; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:55:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DEtNd6024382; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:55:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:55:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=rolRjX0DBwohpou+9bAOIwX+zT0SGz4vXT8SuK4qGR2WASaAySz4FhiM6dE64ywG; Message-ID: <410-220057313135521360 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:55:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94072b03dd4b3b611897516cfc2291816ce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.225 Resent-Message-ID: <2GjAlD.A.18F.atS1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, > > But when you look at the test reports, when JLN runs the device on > full DC power, he is able to input 1324 watts, which seemingly > couldn't happen if this power was all going to a filament with a > resistance higher than an ohm. > 1324 watts on continuous D.C. would require ~ 47 volts for a filament temperature of 2700 K (1.66 ohms 28 amps) ~ 45 volts at 2500 K (1.50 ohms 29.5 amps) ~39 volts at 2000 K (1.15 ohms @ 34 amps) and ~35 volts at 1700 K (0.95 ohms 38 amps ) etc., based on the posted filament diameter of 2.5E-4 meters x 0.1 meters length. Wasn't JLN locked in on a 12 volt 100 amp-hour battery? Besides I don't think the filament would last long at those constant currents. Frederick Jones Beene wrote: > > Fred, > > The main problem which is still lingering is the lack of direct > confirmation about the low power input, and the lack of a > schematic. This could relate to being 'holiday' season in Europe. > > But when you look at the test reports, when JLN runs the device on > full DC power, he is able to input 1324 watts, which seemingly > couldn't happen if this power was all going to a filament with a > resistance higher than an ohm. > > Plus even then (full DC) he is getting out only 70% of the input > as heat - where is the rest of the heat going? Conversely if > George Holz's theory about the power measurments were correct, > when he was using the 50 % duty in the early testing but yet the > OU was still strong even if you double the input power- or when he > went to 5% but was getting only 5-1 OU , then it should have been > 20-1 even then and not 5-1, so George's objection is also a little > shaky from that standpoint - if the reciprocal of the duty is the > measurement problem - the point being that ,there seems to be > little way to logically account for all this. > > I suspect that shortly, in a few weeks hopefully, independent > testing will either confirm his results, or relegate MAHG to the > category of yet another false alarm .... > > > > Summing up the MAHG parameters: > > 300 K fill pressure 80 Torr > > Filament: 2.5E-4 meters dia x 0.1 meters long > ~0.1 ohms 300 K ~1.13 ohms @ 2000 K > > Filament Power Aprox. 127 watts 2000 K (12 Volts D.C.) > Filament Power Aprox 6.4 watts 5% duty cycle. Temp < 2000 K ? > > Aprox. MAHG volume 500 cm^3 > Number of H2 molecules in chamber ~ 1.42E21 > H2 Molecular Radius 1.16E-10 meters > H2 Molecule Collision Mean Free Path (MFP) ~ 1.1E-6 Meters * > Aprox. temperature per H2 molecule 100 watts, 0.44 eV or 5,120 > Deg K > H2 Molecular Velocity 300 K ~ 1.58E3 meters per second > H2 Molecular Velocity 5,120 deg K ~ 6.52E3 meters per second > H2-H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 300 K ~ 1.43E9 per second > H2- H2 Molecular Collision Frequency 5,120 deg K ~ 6.0E9 per > second > > * MFP Based on CRC Handbook Data: 8.81E-5 Meters 1.0 Torr > for H2 > > Does the Casimir Force "track" the ZPE frequency? > > Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 08:04:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DF4Hs9029464; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:04:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DF4FNo029422; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:04:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:04:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050713105509.043e49b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:03:43 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Altogether too blatant phishing attempt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A phishing spam came through the Earthlink spamblocker and fell into my "junk bin." The return address is: "bill (at sign) earthlink-billing.net" I usually dump these things without checking them, but this caught my eye. The message begins: "Your Earthlink billing information is invalid or expired!!! It's nessesarry to enter or update your Earthlink billing information. . . ." Nessesarry? Reeely, how blatant can you get? It is amazing these people find enough suckers to make it worth the effort and bandwidth. I predicted that spam would start to decline by now, but I was wrong. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 08:25:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DFOTs7007738; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:24:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DFOR6G007709; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:24:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42D5321D.3010003 ieee.org> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:24:13 -0400 From: George Hathaway User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction References: <410-220057313111730990 earthlink.net> <002b01c587b0$d855e970$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002b01c587b0$d855e970$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <49oAsC.A.X4B.qIT1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Perhaps comparing Naudin's "tube" with an EIMAC 3CW20000A power triode may be instructive. Frolov/Moller probably obtained the Russian equivalent from St. Petersburg, where he lives, from Svetlana (also in St. Pete's). See http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Svetlana/pdf/3CW20000A7.pdf. cheers - George Hathaway ghathaway ieee.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 08:50:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DFnIK5022414; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:49:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DFnB0I022283; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:49:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:49:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=ijk9sslnUaxpUDjMA2oAjA3/Uv/YipFxY1yeq11eO7fAdM1vUiMQR1pFl7yNX16e; Message-ID: <410-220057313144855270 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [OFF TOPIC] Altogether too blatant phishing attempt Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:48:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d575c027ffda22ef052d1ba3aca165bd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As a 6 year Earthlink subscriber I've seen that one about twice a year, Jed. Look at all the identity theft info they ask for. Scary. Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Jed Rothwell > To: > Date: 7/13/05 10:04:22 AM > Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Altogether too blatant phishing attempt > > A phishing spam came through the Earthlink spamblocker and fell into my > "junk bin." The return address is: "bill (at sign) earthlink-billing.net" I > usually dump these things without checking them, but this caught my eye. > The message begins: > > "Your Earthlink billing information is invalid or expired!!! It's > nessesarry to enter or update your Earthlink billing information. . . ." > > Nessesarry? Reeely, how blatant can you get? It is amazing these people > find enough suckers to make it worth the effort and bandwidth. > > I predicted that spam would start to decline by now, but I was wrong. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 09:35:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DGZAIF018563; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:35:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DGZ7wv018500; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:35:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:35:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$16oqt4q mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,287,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1301116058:sNHT16439818" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:34:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: George Hathaway > > All, > Perhaps comparing Naudin's "tube" with an EIMAC > 3CW20000A power triode may be instructive. Frolov/Moller > probably obtained the Russian equivalent from St. > Petersburg, where he lives, from Svetlana (also in > St. Pete's). See > http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Svetlana/pdf/3CW20000A7.pdf. > > cheers - George Hathaway ghathaway ieee.org > Wow! If that ain't the spitting image of the MAHG device. Sez: "...VHF performance to 200MHz." I'd think that ought to give other testers attempting to replicate claimed "OU" ample leeway to try for a little improvement. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 09:45:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DGj3WP024421; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:45:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DGiqHO024284; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:44:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:44:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c587ca$259e6bd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <410-220057313111730990 earthlink.net> <002b01c587b0$d855e970$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42D5321D.3010003@ieee.org> Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:44:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, we figured out the Svetlana connection a couple of weeks ago on the atomic hydrgogen forum: (ah-gen yahoogroups.com) but it doesn't help much, since a modified hydrogen filled-tube was ordered from the factory for this experiment. This filament is thoriated as well whereas the MAHG is not (apparently from the spec sheet) Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Hathaway" > All, > Perhaps comparing Naudin's "tube" with an EIMAC 3CW20000A > power triode may be instructive. Frolov/Moller probably obtained > the Russian equivalent from St. Petersburg, where he lives, from > Svetlana (also in St. Pete's). See > http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Svetlana/pdf/3CW20000A7.pdf. > > cheers - George Hathaway ghathaway ieee.org > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 09:56:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DGuNFh031064; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:56:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DGuHBK031012; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:56:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:56:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vBpWD3AiauDDUWb/j35YffFNcRCIZ5IdExQYd/XdKWYeYtEdOSd1k7RFTrlT6qPm0RrFvoJab8ae0Cf6yuAYfDyuA5jCZyQUZ+JPvJBTkR4OyqMYlKnIt635JMd8tJ2UfLIenfoAwfs8p5tQbu2++d/wUxXSWizWV//2nA7xV1A= ; Message-ID: <20050713165558.42685.qmail web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:55:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Suspect In Norwich Killing Has Probable Cause Hearing Today To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <44038l$16rmqdf mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-186580061-1121273758=:42642" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-186580061-1121273758=:42642 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No conspiracy, OK - only the story now has "major & important" changes? What else are we not being told, or are we not to ask questions anymore? Chris orionworks charter.net wrote: FYI, http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.aspx?re=2582C7CF-6F58-468E-B7BD-D662698BAB9D http://tinyurl.com/b7cm8 Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-186580061-1121273758=:42642 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
No conspiracy, OK - only the story now has "major & important" changes? What else are we not being told, or are we not to ask questions anymore?
 
Chris

orionworks charter.net wrote:
FYI,

http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.aspx?re=2582C7CF-6F58-468E-B7BD-D662698BAB9D

http://tinyurl.com/b7cm8

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-186580061-1121273758=:42642-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 10:01:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DH0ACs000694; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:00:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DG28Hj030831; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:02:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:02:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=cgnaffdOHkkfplbrCB9i25ls0L1aLoYQOTuRZ9JIMx0M3GSat8pB0fQyNfx1yR6B; Message-ID: <410-22005731315210920 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:02:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cf6e2467776f4cfdb84bf6bf97183608350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.131 Resent-Message-ID: <3fFl3D.A.ehH.2rT1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Bëene wrote > > > > But when you look at the test reports, when JLN runs the device on > > full DC power, he is able to input 1324 watts, which seemingly > > couldn't happen if this power was all going to a filament with a > > resistance higher than an ohm. > > > > Plus even then (full DC) he is getting out only 70% of the input > > as heat - where is the rest of the heat going? Conversely if > > George Holz's theory about the power measurements were correct, > > when he was using the 50 % duty in the early testing but yet the > > OU was still strong even if you double the input power- or when he > > went to 5% but was getting only 5-1 OU , then it should have been > > 20-1 even then and not 5-1, so George's objection is also a little > > shaky from that standpoint - if the reciprocal of the duty is the > > measurement problem - the point being that ,there seems to be > > little way to logically account for all this. > > > > 1324 watts on continuous D.C. would require ~ 47 volts for a filament > temperature of 2700 K (1.66 ohms 28 amps) ~ 45 volts at 2500 K (1.50 > ohms 29.5 amps) ~39 volts at 2000 K (1.15 ohms @ 34 amps) > and ~35 volts at 1700 K (0.95 ohms 38 amps ) etc., based on the posted > filament diameter of 2.5E-4 meters x 0.1 meters length. > If that should perchance be a typo and the power is 132.4 watts the D.C. current at 12 volts would be 11.03 amperes, and the filament resistance 1.08 ohms indicating a temperature greater than 1700 K, but less than 2000 K. No? Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 10:11:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DHATZa006784; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:10:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DHAQLg006740; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:10:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:10:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c587d0$81673860$193debdc default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <410-220057313111730990 earthlink.net> <002b01c587b0$d855e970$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42D5321D.3010003@ieee.org> <000601c587ca$259e6bd0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:30:02 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen? Have a look at http://www.cumminswestport.com/ although they only list Hythane (hydrogen enriched natural gas) in their alternative fuels for hydrogen, rumour has it that they are hydrogen ready and this is certainly their aim, unlike some other promises on the net they are available off the shelf . Biggest engine is 280HP 8.3Ltr. Regards JohnH From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 03:14:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BAEVtI025064; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:14:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BAELVj024995; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:14:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:14:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cxeCd1FtM3tDIuNrCwaQ5r44FY8k0gYabug4e9XqU21USV5F97xB5ZmXKXoYHY++; Message-ID: <410-22005711191433130 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:14:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fd4c840ef84c91e4c5b955b00ba6d876350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.83 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: my 2e: scrambled spam Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Since posting the comment I've been getting private e-mails asking my advice which could be very risky. OTOH, a hydrogen-filled (low pressure) 20 lb capacity propane tank with an off-the-shelf threaded cartridge heater screwed into the 3/4 fpt fitting.... If electrical power isn't available heat it over the campfire or in a solar oven. Some tungsten granules or scraps as a JLN -Mills catalyst in the tank? High grade Over Unity Heat? I wrote: > > based on JLN's numbers there are No H atoms or Electrons produced > with the 5 watts power input ~100 watt power output. > > > Rather "Hardball" H2 - H2 molecular collisions in the low pressure H2 gas > at an effective temperature of ~ 5,000 K are producing fractional-orbit energy-releasing > reactions at a collision frequency of ~ 9.4 GHz. > In turn, the pervasive ZPE fluctuations are "restoring" the molecules to the higher > energy state to finish the cycle. > > Based on this conjecture a simple cartridge heater in a low pressure H2 gas > will probably accomplish the same Free Energy results as the MAHG. > > The same premise applies to the Griggs, Potapov & Huffman and other > devices that can get a Hardball H2 - H2 Collision. > Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Since posting the comment I've been getting private e-mails asking my advice
which could be very risky.
 
OTOH, a  hydrogen-filled (low pressure) 20 lb capacity  propane tank with an off-the-shelf threaded cartridge heater screwed into the 3/4 fpt fitting....
 
If electrical power isn't available heat it over the campfire or in
a solar oven.
 
Some tungsten granules or scraps as a JLN -Mills catalyst in the tank?
 
High grade Over Unity Heat?
 
I wrote:
>
> based on JLN's numbers there are No H atoms or Electrons produced
> with the 5 watts power input ~100 watt power output.
>  
>
> Rather "Hardball" H2 - H2 molecular collisions in the low pressure H2 gas
> at an effective temperature of ~ 5,000 K are producing fractional-orbit energy-releasing
> reactions at a collision frequency of ~ 9.4 GHz.
> In turn, the pervasive ZPE fluctuations are "restoring" the molecules to the higher
> energy state to finish the cycle.
> 
> Based on this conjecture a simple cartridge heater in a low pressure H2 gas
> will probably accomplish the same Free Energy results as the MAHG.
>  
> The same premise applies to the Griggs, Potapov & Huffman and other
> devices that can get a Hardball  H2 - H2 Collision.
> 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 04:27:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BBQvUW024753; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:27:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BBQtZ6024736; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:26:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:26:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Z5k5V3ed8jz6Rya6Vq8cq2pAVM55cCigj27XgDUV+RebBJNnS+C/7QKQY/btFZgn; Message-ID: <410-220057111102716410 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Molecular Water Free Energy Generator? Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:27:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940792e70dd7db5cf980506f46fed428e33350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.207 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: my 2e: scrambled spam Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Since hard-ball collisions of H2 molecules seem to release free energy, it may be possible to get similar results with low pressure-high temperature water vapor in a sealed capsule (one-pound propane bottles come to mind). Putting water in the capsule and heating it in an oven at ~ 600 F to purge it of air, then sealing it to trap the dry steam at about 76 Torr (1/10 atm) at room temperature should be doable. Might this be the mechanism occurring with water injection of ICEs when the low pressure intake gasses hit the hot cylinder walls? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Since hard-ball collisions of H2 molecules seem to release free energy,
it may be possible to get similar results with low pressure-high
temperature water vapor in a sealed capsule (one-pound propane
bottles come to mind).
 
Putting water in the capsule and heating it in an oven at ~ 600 F to purge it
of air, then sealing it to trap the dry steam at about 76 Torr (1/10 atm)
at room temperature should be doable.
 
Might this be the mechanism occurring with water injection of ICEs when the low pressure
intake gasses hit the hot cylinder walls?
 
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 07:47:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BElFpX004835; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:47:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BElCkg004812; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:47:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:47:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=N3COgHIJDKpqHdjXdxA14Ezczg1roVRae111HyHdimooKp5QntZhfy4JJQvvhZG5; Message-ID: <410-220057111134733280 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:47:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ba58b129d65eb8991468f114448b891b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: my 2e: scrambled spam Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Terry Blanton wrote: > > JLN does not get ou unless he pulses his DC. > If you review JLN's data he got about 100% ou without pulses, but went to pulse to get a better energy ROI. Also he initially assumed a constant resistance value (~0.1 ohms) for the Tungsten wire. > > Maybe you need to stir the pot a bit? > Pot luck, Terry? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Terry Blanton wrote:
>
> JLN does not get ou unless he pulses his DC. 
>
If you review JLN's data he got about 100% ou without
pulses, but went to pulse to get a better energy ROI.
 
Also he initially assumed a constant resistance value (~0.1 ohms) for the Tungsten
wire.
>
> Maybe you need to stir the pot a bit?
>
Pot luck, Terry?   :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 10:23:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DHN98i013533; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:23:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DHN7s0013501; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:23:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:23:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:22:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050713172253.UAHC23762.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Harris" > Have a look at > http://www.cumminswestport.com/ > although they only list Hythane (hydrogen enriched natural gas) in their > alternative fuels for hydrogen, rumour has it that they are hydrogen ready > and this is certainly their aim, unlike some other promises on the net they > are available off the shelf . > Biggest engine is 280HP 8.3Ltr. I wonder if it is derated when running H2 only. I'll check the web page. Thanks! BTW, this company makes modular electrolysers with output up to 60 Nm^3/hr (I assume 'N' means 'normal' or 1 atm. pressure): http://www.stuartenergy.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 10:54:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DHsNpd031621; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:54:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DHsLng031589; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:54:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:54:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003d01c587d3$dd4960b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Home, home on LaGrange Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:54:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Slashdot today: http://politics.slashdot.org/politics/05/07/12/2054216.shtml?tid=160&tid=219 "For decades, people have dreamed about building colonies at the five LaGrange points, intersections in space where gravitational and centrifugal forces balance out to provide orbital stability. There is even a "L5" promo-society: http://www.l5news.org/L5history.htm [Lagrange points are named for the French astronomer-mathematician J L Lagrange who calculated five relatively stable orbital positions between Earth and Luna.... "relative" being the operative word - they are not all that stable, or really valuable enough to fight over - according to some experts]... nevertheless... The official magazine of the U.S. Space Command advocates seizing control of the LaGrange points before other nations do it. From the article: 'We face the need to control the chokepoints of the solar system.' " Arthur C. Clarke, who depicted a LaGrange colony in his classic 1961 novel "A Fall of Moondust," is not very happy about this. He argues we should not 'export national rivalries beyond the atmosphere.' Of course we shouldn't export them to the middle East either... but is space somehow "hallowed" compared to other territory? At least in 2001/2010 we had some degree of international cooperation.... or did we? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 11:05:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DI0ULR002742; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:04:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DHnE1M028907; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:49:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:49:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050713134752.043e15e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:48:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Water structure paper uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I uploaded the paper that I mentioned here a few weeks ago. I still wonder whether it has anything to do with cold fusion, but anyway, I added it to the library. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/VysotskiiVthespatial.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 11:05:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DI0ULT002742; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:04:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DHft47022880; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:41:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:41:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050713103939.028e9ab8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:40:11 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Suspect In Norwich Killing Has Probable Cause Hearing Today In-Reply-To: <20050713165558.42685.qmail web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <44038l$16rmqdf mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> <20050713165558.42685.qmail web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris, I dont' follow you...help me out... >only the story now has "major & important" changes? s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 11:05:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DI5MCA005362; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:05:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DI5IaD005324; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:05:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:05:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050713135953.043e6be0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:04:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Interview with Burt Rutan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6DI55FW005138 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.reason.com/hod/tb033105.shtml In this interview, Rutan says many things that I wish cold fusion developers would realize, such as the following quotes: . . . [T]he big one was June 21st for the first manned private space flight where we invited the world's press and we had hundreds of print and broadcast media, and I think some 90 broadcast media video cameras. REASON: There was that excellent documentary. BR: Oh yeah, and the fact that we filmed in house for two and a half years and then made the deal with Discovery. They did a very good job with "Black Sky." They've shown Black Sky at least three times now and it's a full three hours, so we look back on that and realize that this was the right thing to do. It's not the right thing to do to bring in the public and the media for most research testing, but we realize that it is the right thing to do now, and answering your question, it really will be positive in terms of meeting the goals that we need for regulatory [policy]. It will be very positive, the fact that the public is not only knowledgeable, but is strongly behind us. . . . When people think of the Wright brothers they think of 1903. I think a more important thing to look at when you make the point you're making is 1908 to 1911, early 1912. We're talking about only a three and a half year time period that started when only 10 people had flown, and ended three and a half years later when thousands of pilots flew hundreds of airplanes in 39 countries. Those people were doing it just for fun because they weren't developing airliners yet, developing the World War I airplanes yet, or even the mail planes yet. What happened later were the applications, but people wanted to fly. People the world around wanted to fly with a barnstormer, people wanted to go to air shows and see them do loop-the-loop. You know, this is all kind of fun. Go back to 1977 when you could first buy an Apple computer. This was a big deal that people could have computers, but the personal computer was mainly for fun. Most people used them for games, and balancing our checkbook with a personal computer really wasn't why we bought personal computers. I mean, people said, well that's why we need them, but if you think about it, until we had the Internet, we didn't know what computers were really for. Now it's our communication, it's our commerce, it's our­everything. . . . [NASA does not] understand the concept of taking risks in order to find breakthroughs. I hate to say that because we send billions to them for what we think is research but they don't do research, they only do development. They won't reach out and look for new concepts. The same thing is happening with this Bush initiative, the Crew Exploration Vehicle. NASA's going to award multi-billion dollar contracts in September for the primes, and the primes are going to go out and they're going to fight to make sure that they win the next phase after spending billions, and because of that, they're not going to try new, innovative stuff. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 11:21:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DIKwnm012301; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:21:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DIKujg012276; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:20:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:20:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050713140653.043dd520 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:20:12 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Home, home on LaGrange In-Reply-To: <003d01c587d3$dd4960b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <003d01c587d3$dd4960b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >The official magazine of the U.S. Space Command advocates seizing control >of the LaGrange points before other nations do it. From the article: 'We >face the need to control the chokepoints of the solar system.' " That is the stupidest comment I have read in a long time. How do they propose to "control" this area? With thermonuclear weapons? Are they planning to set up toll booths? As a practical matter, what would they do stop others from coming there? This is as if the Spanish, in 1500, began planning a program to deny access to the Atlanta and Pacific oceans to all other European nations. It's sickening. Along the same lines, based on the same mentality, I suppose that somewhere in the world Islamic terrorists are looking forward to launching their first suicide bomb attacks against space stations and lunar colonies. I expect that people in the future will view this kind of plan the way we view the Spanish explorers who stuck flags in the ground in the Americas and claimed that both continents were now property of The King. We see that as ridiculous, pathetic, and -- because they took it seriously and set about enslaving the local population -- utter barbaric. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 11:31:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DIUEuW016750; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:31:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DIFjGa010109; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:15:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:15:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42D55A3E.9060301 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:15:26 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Home, home on LaGrange References: <003d01c587d3$dd4960b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003d01c587d3$dd4960b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <92IyhD.A.5dC.QpV1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > On Slashdot today: > http://politics.slashdot.org/politics/05/07/12/2054216.shtml?tid=160&tid=219 > > > "For decades, people have dreamed about building colonies at the five > LaGrange points, intersections in space where gravitational and > centrifugal forces balance out to provide orbital stability. There is > even a "L5" promo-society: Wrong tense: "There _was_ even an 'L5' promo-society" would be more accurate. Speaking as member #190 in the old L-5 society ... NSS is not the same thing, not at all. NSS is more like the ISS cheering section than it is like the old L-5 group. The dream of Lagrange colonies has been pretty thoroughly abandoned by all activist groups at this point, AFAIK. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 12:01:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DJ0I2B000394; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:00:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DJ052O000308; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:00:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:00:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002801c587dd$088d5750$d0dbb446 VINCE> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: <4403b0$16oqt4q mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:59:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Yes, notice the filament specs; http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Svetlana/pdf/3CW20000A7.pdf. Filament: Thoriated-tungsten mesh Voltage: 7.50 Current 7.50V: 100A How does this fit the JLN published data? Fred and Jones musings? Regards, Vince Cockeram ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:34 AM Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction >> From: George Hathaway >> >> All, >> Perhaps comparing Naudin's "tube" with an EIMAC >> 3CW20000A power triode may be instructive. Frolov/Moller >> probably obtained the Russian equivalent from St. >> Petersburg, where he lives, from Svetlana (also in >> St. Pete's). See >> http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Svetlana/pdf/3CW20000A7.pdf. >> >> cheers - George Hathaway ghathaway ieee.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 13:28:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DKS60v008655; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:28:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DKS14u008603; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:28:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:28:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [aH-gen] Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:27:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050713202749.YJSR23762.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Ron Wormus > I believe the Moller specs say that the tube wall has a 1 > mm sputtered W coating ... pretty thick for sputtering! 0.5 mm via "plasma spraying" according to Moller's project logbook. > In any case, I don't think we are even sure if it is wired > as a grid or a filament so I guess we just need to wait for > more information. The Svetlana spec was for a triode and the construction details seem to indicate that the MAHG is a diode. But, yes, we need more info. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 13:40:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DKeLeE012809; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:40:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DKeKhM012794; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:40:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:40:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: MAHG Resonance Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:40:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050713204008.YRSP23762.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Many resonant frequencies of the MAHG have been postulated including 1.42 and 5.68 GHz. Moller's logbook says the tube is tuned to 2.4 GHz. But there is one more, the gap between the cathode and anode is 9.5 mm whose resonant frequency (full wave) would be 3.16 GHz. I hope Jean-Louis is warming up his spectrum analyzer. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 13:56:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DKtVaX018945; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:55:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DKtS8X018925; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:55:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:55:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: MAHG Resonance Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:55:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050713205509.ZBLK23762.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <_zJGxC.A.jnE.A_X1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > But there is one more, the gap between the cathode and anode is 9.5 mm whose resonant frequency (full wave) would be 3.16 GHz. And why, you might ask, is that significant? It's the clock rate for the Intel Xeon MP processor. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 14:29:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DLTCfU032689; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:29:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DLTBpk032651; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:29:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:29:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Bb5+OhjYuN68Tg5SnCs4rdsHC5dWqV1FRetVIgr9u56tBz4WTPwBzm+uDuKMpOmN+ig350kGuLTq+E2O2p/m+E1a9LWv6hNLX/Af/3ryknjsHFrecObd+zRVVAnm9LDMN6yylL1h0qsyJnoCamcl87N+E7ejPht3rCl0Qyq6GTo= ; Message-ID: <20050713212851.52692.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:28:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Suspect In Norwich Killing Has Probable Cause Hearing Today To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050713103939.028e9ab8 mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-998524871-1121290130=:51456" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-998524871-1121290130=:51456 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Am I mistaken? The original story had Eugene being shot to death by one man, now they say he was beaten to death and possibly by two people. Will the story change again and how is what I am leading up to? Chris Steven Krivit wrote: Chris, I dont' follow you...help me out... >only the story now has "major & important" changes? s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-998524871-1121290130=:51456 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Am I mistaken? The original story had Eugene being shot to death by one man, now they say he was beaten to death and possibly by two people. Will the story change again and how is what I am leading up to?
 
Chris

Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com> wrote:
Chris,

I dont' follow you...help me out...

>only the story now has "major & important" changes?

s

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-998524871-1121290130=:51456-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 14:46:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DLjeYW006265; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:45:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DLjcwg006245; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:45:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:45:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050713143215.02943f80 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:43:48 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Suspect In Norwich Killing Has Probable Cause Hearing Today In-Reply-To: <20050713212851.52692.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050713103939.028e9ab8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20050713212851.52692.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keep in mind that only two or three of the actual stories on Gene have come from reporters doing first-hand reporting. In the past year, some news reporters have been quick to jump to conclusions -- filling in a vacuum with their own speculations regarding some of the details -- without making clear that they were indeed, speculations. So, yes, I would agree with you. The story, as it has been largely carried and conveyed, likely has changed somewhat as a result of the communication process. The facts, however, I suspect, have never changed. Where is leading to? I dunno. I've had a few brief communications with this reporter ( Izaskun Larraneta) today. But I would pay more respect to stories such as this one - from a local print reporter who is there on the scene rather than any story on a TV-news website or AP syndicated story. The news about the possible accomplice was not news to me, AFAIK, that has been a consideration all along. s At 02:28 PM 7/13/2005, you wrote: >Am I mistaken? The original story had Eugene being shot to death by one >man, now they say he was beaten to death and possibly by two people. Will >the story change again and how is what I am leading up to? > >Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 16:17:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DNHMnr013615; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:17:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DNHKrG013590; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:17:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:17:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=l4DVQapnNZndzTCEpNXCMLaXnvvAVCG3c1/E5DsVCFNuhKIb8IxOAnXrzLh5NxQe; Message-ID: <410-220057313221730740 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:17:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406214d0d86d3a88cd3494ff45ec1c6e98350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.224 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram wrote: > > All, > Yes, notice the filament specs; > > > http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Svetlana/pdf/3CW20000A7.pdf. > Filament: Thoriated-tungsten mesh > Voltage: 7.50 > Current 7.50V: 100A > > How does this fit the JLN published data? Fred and Jones musings? > I noticed that before on JLN's May-June web page sketch of the "caged" filament. The thoriated filament emitts about 1.0E5 times as much as a pure W filament at any given temperature This would make the filament resistance ~ 0.075 ohms at 2700 K and 0.008 ohms at 300 K. At 1700 K ~ 0.043 ohms, at 2000 K ~ 0.052 ohms and ~ 0.058 ohms at 2200 K. For 1324 watts at 2000 K, I = ~160 amps V = ~ 4.7 volts etc. Frederick > > Regards, > Vince Cockeram > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:34 AM > Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction > > > >> From: George Hathaway > >> > >> All, > >> Perhaps comparing Naudin's "tube" with an EIMAC > >> 3CW20000A power triode may be instructive. Frolov/Moller > >> probably obtained the Russian equivalent from St. > >> Petersburg, where he lives, from Svetlana (also in > >> St. Pete's). See > >> http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Svetlana/pdf/3CW20000A7.pdf. > >> > >> cheers - George Hathaway ghathaway ieee.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 16:48:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DNm6lu029117; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:48:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DNm3SO029062; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:48:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:48:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c58805$4407c0e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <410-220057313221730740 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:47:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick, Although the JNL specs show otherwise, would you guess that his cathode is thoriated ? Even if it was, it would not have shown up in the radiation tests, most likely. BTW, if anyone has "one large" as the gangstas like to say, not to be confused with the reverse wording, then eBay has your tube up for auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7529726022&category=58171&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 I think you might do better at a Ham-fest... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 17:49:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6E0mqgE002006; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:48:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6E0mmfb001980; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:48:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:48:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004601c5880d$c4261670$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Geek eBay "centerfold" Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:48:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of surfing eBay for your next OU project ... If you are a geek experimenter who likes to fantasize about building a cheap earth-shaking experiment (something a little more profound than "flubber," Fred), then check out this hydrogen thyratron - bid now is only 50 bucks or so. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7530579493&category=58174&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 If you look at the spec sheet you will see that it is actually **filled with deuterium.** presumably in a heat activated metal-hydride, as the pressure is variable by using "resistors". Whoa. I suppose that they did not want to mention that little "detail" about the gas-fill on eBay for fear that "carnivore" would flag it and the MIB would come-a-knockin'. This thing is rated at 35 kv and it is hard to believe that they aren't getting some neutrons if it is ever run near max voltage. No telling what El Dr.Frank could do with this baby plugged into the salad bowl Fusor ;-) Jones Let's see... the De Lorean needs about 1.6 gigawatts, but those flux capacitors are pretty inefficient ... Whoa... welcome to 1955, future boy! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 17:55:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6E0t2jA008620; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:55:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6E0sxYL008572; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:54:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:54:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003b01c5880e$4ea2f7f0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Bubble/Sonofusion Replication from Purdue Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:52:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01C587EC.C71A2C20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ssss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C587EC.C71A2C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Purdue findings support earlier nuclear fusion experiments WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. - Researchers at Purdue University have new = evidence supporting earlier findings by other scientists who designed an = inexpensive "tabletop" device that uses sound waves to produce nuclear = fusion reactions. The technology, in theory, could lead to a new source of clean energy = and a host of portable detectors and other applications. The new findings were detailed in a peer-reviewed paper appearing in the = May issue of the journal Nuclear Engineering and Design. The paper was = written by Yiban Xu, a post-doctoral research associate in the School of = Nuclear Engineering, and Adam Butt, a graduate research assistant in = both nuclear engineering and the School of Aeronautics and Astronautics. A key component of the experiment was a glass test chamber about the = size of two coffee mugs filled with a liquid called deuterated acetone, = which contains a form of hydrogen known as deuterium, or heavy hydrogen. = The researchers exposed the test chamber to subatomic particles called = neutrons and then bombarded the liquid with a specific frequency of = ultrasound, which caused cavities to form into tiny bubbles. The bubbles = then expanded to a much larger size before imploding, apparently with = enough force to cause thermonuclear fusion reactions. Fusion reactions emit neutrons that fall within a specific energy range = of 2.5 mega-electron volts, which was the level of energy seen in = neutrons produced in the experiment. The experiments also yielded a = radioactive material called tritium, which is another product of fusion, = Xu and Butt said. The Purdue research began two years ago, and the findings represent the = first confirmation of findings reported earlier by Rusi Taleyarkhan. Now = at Purdue, Taleyarkhan, the Arden L. Bement Jr. Professor of Nuclear = Engineering, discovered the fusion phenomenon while he was a scientist = working at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory.=20 "The two key signatures for a fusion reaction are emission of neutrons = in the range of 2.5 MeV and production of tritium, both of which were = seen in these experiments," Xu said. The same results were not seen when the researchers ran control = experiments with normal acetone, providing statistically significant = evidence for the existence of fusion reactions. "The control experiments didn't show anything," Xu said. "We changed = just one parameter, substituting the deuterated acetone with normal = acetone." Deuterium contains one proton and one neutron in its nucleus. Normal = hydrogen contains only one proton in its nucleus. Taleyarkhan led a research team that first reported the phenomenon in a = 2002 paper published in the journal Science. Those researchers later = conducted additional research at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, = Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the Russian Academy of Sciences and = wrote a follow-up paper that appeared in the journal Physical Review E = in 2004, just after Taleyarkhan had come to Purdue. Scientists have long known that high-frequency sound waves cause the = formation of cavities and bubbles in liquid, a process known as = "acoustic cavitation," and that those cavities then implode, producing = high temperatures and light in a phenomenon called "sonoluminescence." In the Purdue research, however, the liquid was "seeded" with neutrons = before it was bombarded with sound waves. Some of the bubbles created in = the process were perfectly spherical, and they imploded with greater = force than irregular bubbles. The research yielded evidence that only = spherical bubbles implode with a force great enough to cause deuterium = atoms to fuse together, similar to the way in which hydrogen atoms fuse = in stars to create the thermonuclear furnaces that make stars shine. Nuclear fusion reactors have historically required large, expensive = machines, but acoustic cavitation devices might be built for a fraction = of the cost. Researchers have estimated that temperatures inside the = imploding bubbles reach 10 million degrees Celsius and pressures = comparable to 1,000 million earth atmospheres at sea level. Xu and Butt now work in Taleyarkhan's lab, but all of the research on = which the new paper is based was conducted before they joined the lab, = and the research began at Purdue before Taleyarkhan had become a Purdue = faculty member. The two researchers used an identical "carbon copy" of = the original test chamber designed by Taleyarkhan, and they worked under = the sponsorship and direction of Lefteri Tsoukalas, head of the School = of Nuclear Engineering. Although the test chamber was identical to Taleyarkhan's original = experiment, and the Purdue researchers were careful to use deuterated = acetone, they derived the neutrons from a less-expensive source than the = Oak Ridge researchers. The scientists working at Oak Ridge seeded the = cavities with a "pulse neutron generator," an apparatus that emits rapid = pulses of neutrons. Xu and Butt derived neutrons from a radioactive = material that constantly emits neutrons, and they simply exposed the = test chamber to the material. Development of a low-cost thermonuclear fusion generator would offer the = potential for a new, relatively safe and low-polluting energy source. = Whereas conventional nuclear fission reactors make waste products that = take thousands of years to decay, the waste products from fusion plants = would be short-lived, decaying to non-dangerous levels in a decade or = two. For the same unit mass of fuel, a fusion power plant would produce = 10 times more energy than a fission reactor, and because deuterium is = contained in seawater, a fusion reactor's fuel supply would be virtually = infinite. A cubic kilometer of seawater would contain enough heavy = hydrogen to provide a thousand years' worth of power for the United = States. Such a technology also could result in a new class of low-cost, compact = detectors for security applications that use neutrons to probe the = contents of suitcases; devices for research that use neutrons to analyze = the molecular structures of materials; machines that cheaply manufacture = new synthetic materials and efficiently produce tritium, which is used = for numerous applications ranging from medical imaging to watch dials; = and a new technique to study various phenomena in cosmology, including = the workings of neutron stars and black holes. The desktop experiment is safe because, although the reactions generate = extremely high pressures and temperatures, those extreme conditions = exist only in small regions of the liquid in the container - within the = collapsing bubbles, Xu said. Purdue researchers plan to release additional data from related = experiments in October during the Nuclear Reactor Thermal Hydraulics = conference in Avignon, France. The 2004 paper was written by Taleyarkhan while a distinguished = scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, postdoctoral fellow J.S Cho = at Oak Ridge Associated Universities; Colin West, a retired scientist = from Oak Ridge; Richard T. Lahey Jr., the Edward E. Hood Professor of = Engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI); R.C. Nigmatulin, = a visiting scholar at RPI and president of the Russian Academy of = Sciences' Bashkortonstan branch; and Robert C. Block, active professor = emeritus in the School of Engineering at RPI and director of RPI's = Gaerttner Linear Accelerator Laboratory. Writer: Emil Venere, (765) 494-4709, venere purdue.edu Sources: Yiban Xu, (765) 418-0755, yiban purdue.edu Rusi Taleyarkhan, (765) 494-0198, Lab: 420-7537, rusi ecn.purdue.edu Adam Butt, (317) 514-8585, butt purdue.edu Lefteri Tsoukalas, (765) 494-5742, tsoukala ecn.purdue.edu Purdue News Service: (765) 494-2096; purduenews purdue.edu http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/2005/050712.Xu.fusion.html ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C587EC.C71A2C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Purdue findings support earlier nuclear fusion experiments

WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. =96 Researchers at Purdue University have new = evidence=20 supporting earlier findings by other scientists who designed an = inexpensive=20 "tabletop" device that uses sound waves to produce nuclear fusion = reactions.

The technology, in theory, could lead to a new source of clean energy = and a=20 host of portable detectors and other applications.

The new findings were detailed in a peer-reviewed paper appearing in = the May=20 issue of the journal Nuclear Engineering and Design. The paper = was=20 written by Yiban Xu, a post-doctoral research associate in the School of = Nuclear=20 Engineering, and Adam Butt, a graduate research assistant in both = nuclear=20 engineering and the School of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

A key component of the experiment was a glass test chamber about the = size of=20 two coffee mugs filled with a liquid called deuterated acetone, which = contains a=20 form of hydrogen known as deuterium, or heavy hydrogen. The researchers = exposed=20 the test chamber to subatomic particles called neutrons and then = bombarded the=20 liquid with a specific frequency of ultrasound, which caused cavities to = form=20 into tiny bubbles. The bubbles then expanded to a much larger size = before=20 imploding, apparently with enough force to cause thermonuclear fusion=20 reactions.

Fusion reactions emit neutrons that fall within a specific energy = range of=20 2.5 mega-electron volts, which was the level of energy seen in neutrons = produced=20 in the experiment. The experiments also yielded a radioactive material = called=20 tritium, which is another product of fusion, Xu and Butt said.

The Purdue research began two years ago, and the findings represent = the first=20 confirmation of findings reported earlier by Rusi Taleyarkhan. Now at = Purdue,=20 Taleyarkhan, the Arden L. Bement Jr. Professor of Nuclear Engineering,=20 discovered the fusion phenomenon while he was a scientist working at the = Oak=20 Ridge National Laboratory.

"The two key signatures for a fusion reaction are emission of = neutrons in the=20 range of 2.5 MeV and production of tritium, both of which were seen in = these=20 experiments," Xu said.

The same results were not seen when the researchers ran control = experiments=20 with normal acetone, providing statistically significant evidence for = the=20 existence of fusion reactions.

"The control experiments didn't show anything," Xu said. "We changed = just one=20 parameter, substituting the deuterated acetone with normal acetone."

Deuterium contains one proton and one neutron in its nucleus. Normal = hydrogen=20 contains only one proton in its nucleus.

Taleyarkhan led a research team that first reported the phenomenon in = a 2002=20 paper published in the journal Science. Those researchers later = conducted=20 additional research at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Rensselaer = Polytechnic=20 Institute and the Russian Academy of Sciences and wrote a follow-up = paper that=20 appeared in the journal Physical Review E in 2004, just after = Taleyarkhan=20 had come to Purdue.

Scientists have long known that high-frequency sound waves cause the=20 formation of cavities and bubbles in liquid, a process known as = "acoustic=20 cavitation," and that those cavities then implode, producing high = temperatures=20 and light in a phenomenon called "sonoluminescence."

In the Purdue research, however, the liquid was "seeded" with = neutrons before=20 it was bombarded with sound waves. Some of the bubbles created in the = process=20 were perfectly spherical, and they imploded with greater force than = irregular=20 bubbles. The research yielded evidence that only spherical bubbles = implode with=20 a force great enough to cause deuterium atoms to fuse together, similar = to the=20 way in which hydrogen atoms fuse in stars to create the thermonuclear = furnaces=20 that make stars shine.

Nuclear fusion reactors have historically required large, expensive = machines,=20 but acoustic cavitation devices might be built for a fraction of the = cost.=20 Researchers have estimated that temperatures inside the imploding = bubbles reach=20 10 million degrees Celsius and pressures comparable to 1,000 million = earth=20 atmospheres at sea level.

Xu and Butt now work in Taleyarkhan's lab, but all of the research on = which=20 the new paper is based was conducted before they joined the lab, and the = research began at Purdue before Taleyarkhan had become a Purdue faculty = member.=20 The two researchers used an identical "carbon copy" of the original test = chamber=20 designed by Taleyarkhan, and they worked under the sponsorship and = direction of=20 Lefteri Tsoukalas, head of the School of Nuclear Engineering.

Although the test chamber was identical to Taleyarkhan's original = experiment,=20 and the Purdue researchers were careful to use deuterated acetone, they = derived=20 the neutrons from a less-expensive source than the Oak Ridge = researchers. The=20 scientists working at Oak Ridge seeded the cavities with a "pulse = neutron=20 generator," an apparatus that emits rapid pulses of neutrons. Xu and = Butt=20 derived neutrons from a radioactive material that constantly emits = neutrons, and=20 they simply exposed the test chamber to the material.

Development of a low-cost thermonuclear fusion generator would offer = the=20 potential for a new, relatively safe and low-polluting energy source. = Whereas=20 conventional nuclear fission reactors make waste products that take = thousands of=20 years to decay, the waste products from fusion plants would be = short-lived,=20 decaying to non-dangerous levels in a decade or two. For the same unit = mass of=20 fuel, a fusion power plant would produce 10 times more energy than a = fission=20 reactor, and because deuterium is contained in seawater, a fusion = reactor's fuel=20 supply would be virtually infinite. A cubic kilometer of seawater would = contain=20 enough heavy hydrogen to provide a thousand years' worth of power for = the United=20 States.

Such a technology also could result in a new class of low-cost, = compact=20 detectors for security applications that use neutrons to probe the = contents of=20 suitcases; devices for research that use neutrons to analyze the = molecular=20 structures of materials; machines that cheaply manufacture new synthetic = materials and efficiently produce tritium, which is used for numerous=20 applications ranging from medical imaging to watch dials; and a new = technique to=20 study various phenomena in cosmology, including the workings of neutron = stars=20 and black holes.

The desktop experiment is safe because, although the reactions = generate=20 extremely high pressures and temperatures, those extreme conditions = exist only=20 in small regions of the liquid in the container =96 within the = collapsing bubbles,=20 Xu said.

Purdue researchers plan to release additional data from related = experiments=20 in October during the Nuclear Reactor Thermal Hydraulics conference in = Avignon,=20 France.

The 2004 paper was written by Taleyarkhan while a distinguished = scientist at=20 Oak Ridge National Laboratory, postdoctoral fellow J.S Cho at Oak Ridge=20 Associated Universities; Colin West, a retired scientist from Oak Ridge; = Richard=20 T. Lahey Jr., the Edward E. Hood Professor of Engineering at Rensselaer=20 Polytechnic Institute (RPI); R.C. Nigmatulin, a visiting scholar at RPI = and=20 president of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Bashkortonstan branch; and = Robert=20 C. Block, active professor emeritus in the School of Engineering at RPI = and=20 director of RPI's Gaerttner Linear Accelerator Laboratory.

Writer: Emil Venere, (765) 494-4709, venere@purdue.edu

Sources: Yiban Xu, (765) 418-0755, yiban@purdue.edu

Rusi Taleyarkhan, (765) 494-0198, Lab: 420-7537, rusi@ecn.purdue.edu

Adam Butt, (317) 514-8585, butt@purdue.edu

Lefteri Tsoukalas, (765) 494-5742, tsoukala@ecn.purdue.edu

Purdue News Service: (765) 494-2096; purduenews@purdue.edu

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/2005/050712.Xu.fusion.html

 

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C587EC.C71A2C20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 11 03:14:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6BAEVtI025064; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:14:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6BAELVj024995; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:14:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:14:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cxeCd1FtM3tDIuNrCwaQ5r44FY8k0gYabug4e9XqU21USV5F97xB5ZmXKXoYHY++; Message-ID: <410-22005711191433130 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MHFEG Molecular Hydrogen Free Energy Generator vs MAHG Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:14:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fd4c840ef84c91e4c5b955b00ba6d876350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.83 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: my 2e: scrambled spam Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Since posting the comment I've been getting private e-mails asking my advice which could be very risky. OTOH, a hydrogen-filled (low pressure) 20 lb capacity propane tank with an off-the-shelf threaded cartridge heater screwed into the 3/4 fpt fitting.... If electrical power isn't available heat it over the campfire or in a solar oven. Some tungsten granules or scraps as a JLN -Mills catalyst in the tank? High grade Over Unity Heat? I wrote: > > based on JLN's numbers there are No H atoms or Electrons produced > with the 5 watts power input ~100 watt power output. > > > Rather "Hardball" H2 - H2 molecular collisions in the low pressure H2 gas > at an effective temperature of ~ 5,000 K are producing fractional-orbit energy-releasing > reactions at a collision frequency of ~ 9.4 GHz. > In turn, the pervasive ZPE fluctuations are "restoring" the molecules to the higher > energy state to finish the cycle. > > Based on this conjecture a simple cartridge heater in a low pressure H2 gas > will probably accomplish the same Free Energy results as the MAHG. > > The same premise applies to the Griggs, Potapov & Huffman and other > devices that can get a Hardball H2 - H2 Collision. > Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Since posting the comment I've been getting private e-mails asking my advice
which could be very risky.
 
OTOH, a  hydrogen-filled (low pressure) 20 lb capacity  propane tank with an off-the-shelf threaded cartridge heater screwed into the 3/4 fpt fitting....
 
If electrical power isn't available heat it over the campfire or in
a solar oven.
 
Some tungsten granules or scraps as a JLN -Mills catalyst in the tank?
 
High grade Over Unity Heat?
 
I wrote:
>
> based on JLN's numbers there are No H atoms or Electrons produced
> with the 5 watts power input ~100 watt power output.
>  
>
> Rather "Hardball" H2 - H2 molecular collisions in the low pressure H2 gas
> at an effective temperature of ~ 5,000 K are producing fractional-orbit energy-releasing
> reactions at a collision frequency of ~ 9.4 GHz.
> In turn, the pervasive ZPE fluctuations are "restoring" the molecules to the higher
> energy state to finish the cycle.
> 
> Based on this conjecture a simple cartridge heater in a low pressure H2 gas
> will probably accomplish the same Free Energy results as the MAHG.
>  
> The same premise applies to the Griggs, Potapov & Huffman and other
> devices that can get a Hardball  H2 - H2 Collision.
> 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 13:05:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6DK4cPB031781; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:04:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6DK4aqn031757; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:04:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:04:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:05:31 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: aH-gen yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [aH-gen] Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Message-ID: <31335546.1121263531 localhost> In-Reply-To: <000601c587ca$259e6bd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <000601c587ca$259e6bd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: O X-Status: Assuming that Naudin's Svetlana tubes are modified we need to know what mods have been applied to the std. Svetlana tube. I believe the Moller specs say that the tube wall has a 1 mm sputtered W coating ... pretty thick for sputtering! I wonder if Fred & Jones idea of using Pd, Rh, or Ru in some combination would be as good as or better than the sputtered W. Could any of these be plated to the wall instead of sputtered to make fabrication easier. In any case, I don't think we are even sure if it is wired as a grid or a filament so I guess we just need to wait for more information. Ron --On Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:44 AM -0700 Jones Beene wrote: > Yes, we figured out the Svetlana connection a couple of > weeks ago on the atomic hydrgogen forum: > (ah-gen yahoogroups.com) > but it doesn't help much, since a modified hydrogen > filled-tube was ordered from the factory for this > experiment. > > This filament is thoriated as well whereas the MAHG is > not (apparently from the spec sheet) > > Jones > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Hathaway" > > >> All, >> Perhaps comparing Naudin's "tube" with an EIMAC >> 3CW20000A power triode may be instructive. >> Frolov/Moller probably obtained the Russian equivalent >> from St. Petersburg, where he lives, from Svetlana >> (also in St. Pete's). See >> http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Svetlana/pdf/3CW20000A7.pdf. >> >> cheers - George Hathaway ghathaway ieee.org >> >> >> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aH-gen/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > aH-gen-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 21:03:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6E43OHS024971; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:03:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6E43MFA024951; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:03:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:03:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PG+sYnCRrFo8RflzDQ+JZ0EtIFNaxXO2NbBRhOKQjpJfQzswXu74wlGtJwmUaGCS5+I8IHIylyQPp7moYAZHUzhllrgQaxutmvfyFZLVP/RVsFmeOa3m4mgmPWROf4ybDPaWDY8AnJLCBplCiL1c7vy0VP6o3PZmx6qkUbMkhuU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:02:08 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Geek eBay "centerfold" In-Reply-To: <004601c5880d$c4261670$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <004601c5880d$c4261670$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6E43E5t024886 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: droool. it must be mine!!!! On 7/13/05, Jones Beene wrote: > Speaking of surfing eBay for your next OU project ... > > If you are a geek experimenter who likes to fantasize about > building a cheap earth-shaking experiment (something a little more > profound than "flubber," Fred), then check out this hydrogen > thyratron - bid now is only 50 bucks or so. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7530579493&category=58174&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 > > If you look at the spec sheet you will see that it is actually > **filled with deuterium.** presumably in a heat activated > metal-hydride, as the pressure is variable by using "resistors". > > Whoa. I suppose that they did not want to mention that little > "detail" about the gas-fill on eBay for fear that "carnivore" > would flag it and the MIB would come-a-knockin'. > > This thing is rated at 35 kv and it is hard to believe that they > aren't getting some neutrons if it is ever run near max voltage. > > No telling what El Dr.Frank could do with this baby plugged into > the salad bowl Fusor ;-) > > Jones > > Let's see... the De Lorean needs about 1.6 gigawatts, but those > flux capacitors are pretty inefficient ... Whoa... welcome to > 1955, future boy! > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 13 23:55:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6E6t88I017541; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:55:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6E6t5fu017508; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:55:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:55:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=ZTxKonUjH7XNvUf3RLItKN4475nP/oaJOefxZhqiD3zlrd3c9mxpzA0QLOL3vEMZ; Message-ID: <410-22005741455523430 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:55:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94051b44575bef5c1434737007b08516eb5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.75 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Frederick, > > Although the JNL specs show otherwise, would you guess that his > cathode is thoriated ? Even if it was, it would not have shown up > in the radiation tests, most likely. > If he didn't modify the tube much the filament could be thoriated. BTW: The thoriated filament emits about 1.0E5 times as much as a pure W filament at any given temperature and at 2000 K -1324 watts could be emitting way over 8 amperes of electrons, even though the power is greater than the 750 watt vacuum rating of the tube. (the hydrogen cooling and electron emission is holding the filament at the lower temperature). The "missing" ~ 24% power could be because the electrons are getting to ground though the tube wall, thus it's also acting as a thermionic converter. ? This would make the filament resistance ~ 0.075 ohms at 2700 K and 0.008 ohms at 300 K. At 1700 K ~ 0.043 ohms, at 2000 K ~ 0.052 ohms and ~ 0.058 ohms at 2200 K. For 1324 watts at 2000 K, I = ~160 amps V = ~ 8.33 volts etc (the battery can handle this). Frederick. > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 00:20:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6E7KNN7028549; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:20:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6E7KLof028527; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:20:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=Tg2iKtvEPgSddiB1dS6Cycp3wSEOpDcRY+GZAPm0sSp9EFFpz0DgoYO7FdK2RGPj; Message-ID: <410-22005741462018220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:20:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94003e4381c39f93c6e819e40b23440f170350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.142 Resent-Message-ID: <6o3PvB.A.r9G.0Ih1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > > > Frederick, > > > > Although the JNL specs show otherwise, would you guess that his > > cathode is thoriated ? Even if it was, it would not have shown up > > in the radiation tests, most likely. > > How much Helium (from alpha emission) would the thorium add, Jones? > > If he didn't modify the tube much the filament could be thoriated. > > BTW: > The thoriated filament emits about 1.0E5 times as much as a pure W > filament at any given temperature and at 2000 K -1324 watts could be > emitting > way over 8 amperes of electrons, even though the power is greater than the > 750 watt > vacuum rating of the tube. (the hydrogen cooling and electron emission is > holding the filament at the lower temperature). > The "missing" ~ 24% power could be because the electrons are getting to > ground though the tube wall, thus it's also acting as a thermionic > converter. ? > > This would make the filament resistance ~ 0.075 ohms at 2700 K and 0.008 > ohms > at 300 K. At 1700 K ~ 0.043 ohms, at 2000 K ~ 0.052 ohms and ~ 0.058 ohms > at 2200 K. > > For 1324 watts at 2000 K, I = ~160 amps V = ~ 8.33 volts etc (the battery > can handle this). > > Frederick. > > > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 01:04:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6E84Qa5012438; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:04:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6E84Owe012405; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:04:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:04:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 03:03:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Home on LeGrange Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <7oGMaB.A.tBD.Iyh1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell posted; Along the same lines, based on the same mentality, I suppose that somewhere in the world Islamic terrorists are looking forward to launching their first suicide bomb attacks against space stations and lunar colonies. Did you hear the NewsMax story about Al Quieda having 20 nukes in America? The Savage, www.michaelsavage.com , had a fit about it. The "atomic holocaust" is mentioned in Bible Code, so I see it as inevitable. We should start a thread on radioneuclide remediation, I think that it's going to be a growth field. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 02:18:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6E9IHJx005590; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:18:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6E9ID91005550; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:18:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:18:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=j2sekmLTotYiqzMBD1461VlOZVD1HiF0rpYRxH2+mt2rBVGSZhp0GCwoGfzn3mz7; Message-ID: <410-22005741481829600 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: MAHG Calorimetry Glitch? Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 03:18:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401927b835d8a2c8b1cf1c89b7905789cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.49 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Although one can conclude that MAHG is using a thoriated W filament, the 5 watt pulsed input yielding "~ 100 watts output" raises the question of thermal storage in the water jacket. IOW, at 51 Hz pulse rate ~ 1.0 milliseconds on and ~19 milliseconds off (~ 5.0 joule/pulse x 51 pulses/sec) the water in the jacket is storing this heat ie., it isn't flowing out of the jacket fast enough to get a true heat measurement??? Confused. :-(. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Although one can conclude that MAHG is using a thoriated W filament, the
5 watt pulsed input yielding  "~ 100 watts output" raises the question
of thermal storage in the water jacket.
 
IOW, at 51 Hz pulse rate ~ 1.0 milliseconds on and ~19 milliseconds off
(~ 5.0 joule/pulse x 51 pulses/sec) the water in the jacket is storing
this heat ie., it isn't flowing out of the jacket fast enough to get a true
heat measurement???
 
Confused.  :-(.
 
Frederick
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 05:28:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6ECS0Ec031152; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 05:28:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ECRwx7031131; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 05:27:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 05:27:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Home on LeGrange Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 8:27:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050714122746.OIWF27701.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: thomas malloy > Did you hear the NewsMax story about Al Quieda having 20 nukes in > America? World Net Daily elaborates: http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45246 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 06:01:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6ED1AkJ012923; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:01:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ED19kN012906; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:01:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:01:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c58874$12d092d0$e9027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: LaGrange Texas Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:00:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5884A.2939F9F0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <-cFmwD.A.mJD.UIm1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5884A.2939F9F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5884A.2939F9F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5884A.2939F9F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank I live 12 miles outside of LaGrange Texas, better known for the famous = Texas " chicken ranch" ( the greatest little whore house in Texas) = where no politician on his way to Austin was ever turned away without be = " serviced". Alas! the ranch is long gone but the world of politics has remained. = The only difference is the old timers traded chickens for favors and the = new politicians trade favors for chickenfeed. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5884A.2939F9F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 

I live 12 miles outside of LaGrange Texas, better known for the = famous Texas=20 " chicken ranch"  ( the greatest little whore house in Texas) where = no=20 politician on his way to Austin was ever turned away without be " = serviced".

 Alas! the ranch is long gone but the world of politics has = remained.=20 The only difference is the old timers traded chickens for favors and the = new=20 politicians trade favors for chickenfeed.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5884A.2939F9F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5884A.2939F9F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c58874$1209e770$e9027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5884A.2939F9F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 06:52:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EDqQRn009885; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:52:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EDqONw009872; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:52:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:52:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c5887e$5d6fec00$dc3bebdc default> From: "John Harris" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-22005741481829600 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MAHG Calorimetry Glitch? Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:14:34 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C588C1.6A9F0800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C588C1.6A9F0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 4:18 PM Subject: Re: MAHG Calorimetry Glitch? Although one can conclude that MAHG is using a thoriated W filament, = SNIP I think page 37 #4 of the workbook should lay this to rest It clearly states a pure tungsten filament with calculations of lifetime = etc. If this be disregarded then the rest of the workbook can be scrapped as = well JohnH ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C588C1.6A9F0800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 = 4:18=20 PM
Subject: Re: MAHG Calorimetry=20 Glitch?
Although one can conclude that MAHG = is using a=20 thoriated W filament, SNIP
I think page 37 #4 of the = workbook should=20 lay this to rest
 
It clearly states a pure = tungsten filament=20 with calculations of lifetime etc.
If this be disregarded then = the rest of the=20 workbook can be scrapped as well
 
JohnH
 
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C588C1.6A9F0800-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 06:56:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EDuQmv011880; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:56:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EDuNoq011847; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:56:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:56:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c5887b$c9d6f530$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "vortex-l" References: <410-22005741462018220 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MAHG Parameters Correction Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:56:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick, > How much Helium (from alpha emission) would the thorium add, > Jones? About the same amount of gas which is lost to hydrino formation, so there is no apparent change in tube parameters ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 07:23:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EEMA6g025080; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:22:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EEM4Nm025020; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:22:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:22:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Honda Hybrid Improvements Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:21:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050714142152.UGDY13635.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?mid=2005070636116&mime=asc Significant improvements including 50% increase in the electric motor output. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 07:42:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EEfmJV004550; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:41:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EEfkVd004529; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:41:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:41:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003e01c58882$1e73d1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <410-22005741481829600 earthlink.net> <001f01c5887e$5d6fec00$dc3bebdc@default> Subject: Hydride pumping... was MAHG Calorimetry Glitch? Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:41:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: John Harris "Although one can conclude that MAHG is using a thoriated W filament, I think page 37 #4 of the workbook should lay this to rest. It clearly states a pure tungsten filament with calculations of lifetime etc. If this be disregarded then the rest of the workbook can be scrapped as well" Good point, unless they were trying to dodge export/import restrictions in order to get the thing out of St. Petersberg, Russia across, let's see 7 or 8? different national borders, if moved by truck. Of course the same difficulty would apply to any Sveltalna tube, apparently, so it would seem that John is correct and this is either pure tungsten, or pure BS. It also raises and interesting point about Tungsten, which was mentioned earlier - it being more like a ceramic in physical porperties, and the fact that a surface hydride layer is perfectly positioned to "pump" ZPE energy ala -the Casimir or any other source like UV light. There are some alloys which consist of dozen of metals. There are many alloys which contain only two metals, these being called bimetallic, but their properties depend on the proportion of their components. Thoriated tungsten is bimetallic with usually on 1-3% thorium - preferable 2%. Some metals fuse so readily and in any proportion that the melting point of one of them does not have to be reached (such as brass - the alloy of copper and zinc). Others, such as copper and tungsten, are reluctant to mix under any conditions. In fact no metal, even thorium, will alloy with tungsten under normal circumstances of melting. Manufactures usually use an unusual method, such as powder metallurgy, that is by sintering tungsten powders under pressure with the other metal. Often the throium is added as an oxide, not as the metal. More recently, 1.5 % lanthanated tungsten has emerged as what could be the future standard for tungsten electrodes. The 1.5 % by weight content (as opposed to 2% thorium) was chosen by the largest welding rode manufacturers as the optimum content amount based on scientific studies which showed that this content amount most closely mirrors the conductivity characteristics of 2% thoriated tungsten. Anyway - if there is something unusual happening in the tungsten, it may get back to that one singularity mentioned earlier on the aH forum, about the hydride - in the case of tungsten hydride, the W atoms can be quintiply bonded !! ....i.e. there are at least **5 bonding states** between tungsten atoms, all of them have may have potential energy-spreads like what one finds in ortho-para-hydrogen (which is pretty small)... but 5 bonding states is most unusual and perhaps is a singularity in the periodic table. Together with the ortho-para-hydrogen variability, it opens up another "can of worms".... which is a slight enegy spread being multiplied by the billion times per second per molecule collision rate. An extra billionth of an eV in assymetry, at this rate of collision will amount to a lot of excess energy. Five bonding states offer a lot of options for "pumping" energy from any little-appreciated source like ZPE and might operate in consort with the two hydrogen states ... especially if UV and even visible light frequencies within the tube are able to change those states from lower to higher energy. This does not chage my suspicion that the initating source of excess energy is UV photon emission from the Dirac/Hotson epo field (i.e. ZPE) which "source" needs to be pinpointed, even if ortho-para-hydrogen pumping, and not the W-H pumping were to be the proximate source of the effect. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 07:58:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EEw2UF014449; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:58:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EEw0vY014423; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:58:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:58:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006001c58884$63a2a030$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Hydride pumping... was MAHG Calorimetry Glitch? Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:57:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW I should give credit to Frank Grimer and Frederick Sparber for coming up with the two basic ideas behind ortho-para-hydrogen pumping at the GHz collision rate. But it should be emphasised that if the Casimir force were to operate in ortho-para-hydrogen pumping situation, then there need only be a few hundred parts per trillion in energy assymetry, between the two states, in order to give the suspected .4-.5 eV of excess energy (assuming the figures are correct). I have the correct figure somehwere in a file and am trying to locate it. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 08:11:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EFAnn7020502; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:10:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EFAlgg020485; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:10:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:10:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403a9$16du9vq mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,290,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1289693178:sNHT19001142" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Home on LeGrange Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:10:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <--4fkB.A.-_E.3Bo1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > From: thomas malloy > > > Did you hear the NewsMax story about Al Quieda having > > 20 nukes in America? > > World Net Daily elaborates: > > http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45246 > An extremely OT essay follows. You have been warned! ;-) Pertaining to the WorldNetDaily.com article and of particular interest to me: "Bin Laden, according to Williams, has nearly unlimited funds to spend on his nuclear terrorism plan because he has remained in control of the Afghanistan-produced heroin industry. Poppy production has greatly increased even while U.S. troops are occupying the country, he writes. Al-Qaida has developed close relations with the Albanian Mafia, which assists in the smuggling and sale of heroin throughout Europe and the U.S. " * * * * * I realize many are likely to consider what I'm about to suggest to be an extremely unpopular and morally bankrupt suggestion but I'll mention it anyway: Legitimate governments, including ours, should grow their own poppy crops. This might include going over to Afghanistan and making deals with the local farmers growing the crops. Government could probably easily outbid the drug cartel's asking prices. The governments could offer the farmers protection as well. In the meantime governments could also offer incentives to these farmers to switch to other crops, though that might prove to be a challenge assuming growing poppy seeds tends to bring in far more profits that other "legitimate" crops. The "product" purchased at fair-market value by governments should eventually be sold by governments at substantially reduced prices on the streets, so to speak - and by doing so undercut the artificially pumped up profits of the huge international drug cartels and the distribution chain that propagates all the way down to small-time pushers desperately eking out meager profits in back alleys of our ghettos. Meanwhile, use the government sanctioned collected profits to finance rehabilitation and drug awareness programs. CLEARLY make it obvious to all who buy the highly dangerous and addictive drugs that their purchase of the product is funding the rehabilitation centers and programs they should avail themselves to. CLEARLY show what happens to all who end up getting hooked. Pull no punches. Graphically show the devastation and ruined lives. The point being: you can continue to buy these highly dangerous and addictive drugs and probably eventually die from an overdose, or you can go get treatment. The choice is yours. Such "morally bankrupt" policies are likely, IMHO, to quickly put most of the drug cartels out of business faster than continued multi-million dollar funded drug raids and expensive paramilitary expenditures assembled with great fan fare to wage our morally righteous wars against the evil drug cartels. Unfortunately, it seems to me that most of these government sanctioned crusades have turned into Big Business with their own self-interests at heart. I suspect many of these operations have a steak in keeping the status quo as is. They are not really all that interested in truly defeating the enemy, as it would eventually put them out of business as well. I realize one of the major arguments against implementing such a morally bankrupt choice is predicated on the premise that to do so would essentially mean governments are legitimizing the use of dangerous drugs, that it's a recipe to hook impressionable youth on deadly addictive drugs. Personally, I don't believe so. The drug education programs should make that devastatingly obvious. I'd view it as simply a pragmatic decision by governments to efficiently put all drug cartels permanently out of business, and by doing so recycling a large chunk of discretionary income back into the economy where it can be taxed while simultaneously funding useful programs. Actually...come to think of it, I suspect a number of unlisted government operations are probably being funded in exactly this way now, all under the table of course. "Blood Money!" some might protest. Perhaps so... Never the less, tell that to hoards of radiation victims streaming into over taxed hospitals as well as victims dieing horribly on the streets when the next "Holy Cleansing" goes off in the middle of New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles. It is, after all, your tax dollars at work. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 08:42:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EFgC2g004292; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:42:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EFg9Ur004257; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:42:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:42:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=owGglR+WFPm5fBNhraaplFplIF8CI87BeNN2v5HI6AH51kCVQqvZkSu09z6t/3v8; Message-ID: <410-220057414144224250 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: MAHG Filament Configuration Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:42:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bad669bc96341a9de22ab332995b42ef350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.161 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The stipulated "0.25 mm x 100 mm filament size doesn't specify the way that it's fed. If the "basket" or "cage" layout is a Zig Zag fed so that the segments are in parallel as opposed to a series feed for the 100 mm length, things change resistance and power-wise. (by about a factor of 10) from what I can make of JLN's May-June MAHG web page. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The stipulated "0.25 mm x 100 mm filament size doesn't specify
the way that it's fed.
 
If the "basket" or "cage" layout is a Zig Zag fed so that the segments are in
parallel as opposed to a series feed for the 100 mm length, things change
resistance and power-wise. (by about a factor of 10)  from what I can make of
JLN's May-June  MAHG web page.
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 09:01:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EG1PCb013647; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:01:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EG18Pv013549; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:01:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:01:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42D68C32.6000806 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:00:50 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Home on LeGrange References: <4403a9$16du9vq mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4403a9$16du9vq mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >>From: Terry Blanton >> >> > > > >>>From: thomas malloy >>> >>> >>>Did you hear the NewsMax story about Al Quieda having >>>20 nukes in America? >>> >>> >>World Net Daily elaborates: >> >>http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45246 >> >> >> > >An extremely OT essay follows. You have been warned! ;-) > > Indeed! But I had a couple comments none the less. >Pertaining to the WorldNetDaily.com article and of particular interest to me: > >"Bin Laden, according to Williams, has nearly unlimited funds to spend on his nuclear terrorism plan because he has remained in control of the Afghanistan-produced heroin industry. Poppy production has greatly increased even while U.S. troops are occupying the country, he writes. Al-Qaida has developed close relations with the Albanian Mafia, which assists in the smuggling and sale of heroin throughout Europe and the U.S. " > >* * * * * > >I realize many are likely to consider what I'm about to suggest to be an extremely unpopular and morally bankrupt suggestion but I'll mention it anyway: > >Legitimate governments, including ours, should grow their own poppy crops. This might include going over to Afghanistan and making deals with the local farmers growing the crops. Government could probably easily outbid the drug cartel's asking prices. > Absolutely. The goverment would presumably not be above selling the heroin at a loss, which immediately pushes the price of the raw materials up out of reach of anyone trying to make a profit on it. Undercutting street prices at one end while outbidding for the raw poppies at the other end should be very easy to do (for a government). >The governments could offer the farmers protection as well. > That might be harder! Track records in the area of protecting remotely located individuals from retaliation by highly motivated drug interests haven't been too great (consider Colombia). >In the meantime governments could also offer incentives to these farmers to switch to other crops, though that might prove to be a challenge assuming growing poppy seeds tends to bring in far more profits that other "legitimate" crops. > >The "product" purchased at fair-market value by governments should eventually be sold by governments at substantially reduced prices on the streets, > Well I hope you mean "through clinics located in areas where drug use is high" rather than literally "on the streets". Was it on Vortex that I read that heroin is better than methadone because with heroin, an addict is spaced for about an hour but then can go into work and be productive, but on methadone they're spaced for 6 or 8 hours and the whole day is shot? Too bad the barriers to any kind of legal use of heroin are so totally insurmountable in this country. > so to speak - and by doing so undercut the artificially pumped up profits > They're not "artificially pumped up" -- they're just normal monopoly profits of the same sort that Microsoft rakes in. Totally natural, in some sense; the international crime syndicates have no "monopoly" on such things. > of the huge international drug cartels and the distribution chain that propagates all the way down to small-time pushers desperately eking out meager profits in back alleys of our ghettos. > >Meanwhile, use the government sanctioned collected profits to finance rehabilitation and drug awareness programs. CLEARLY make it obvious to all who buy the highly dangerous and addictive drugs that their purchase of the product is funding > Um, since the product is to be sold at a loss (which seems to follow from the assumption that they'll overbid the cartels for the product and then undercut them on the street), I don't see how the sales could provide funding for _anything_. (Something like using the profits from the sale of Airbus aircraft to fund something -- first you need to figure out if there actually are any profits.) >the rehabilitation centers and programs they should avail themselves to. CLEARLY show what happens to all who end up getting hooked. Pull no punches. Graphically show the devastation and ruined lives. The point being: you can continue to buy these highly dangerous and addictive drugs and probably eventually die from an overdose, or you can go get treatment. The choice is yours. > >Such "morally bankrupt" policies are likely, IMHO, to quickly put most of the drug cartels out of business faster than continued multi-million dollar funded drug raids and expensive paramilitary expenditures assembled with great fan fare to wage our morally righteous wars against the evil drug cartels. > Crack finally became big news when the bottom fell out of the cocaine market. Before that the raw materials were too expensive; it was, I believe, called "freebase cocaine" but since you need a lot of coke to make a little crack almost nobody had ever even heard of it. I think there may be a recently discovered process used to make crack a little more easily than one could "freebase" but the fundamental fact that you use up a lot of coke making it hasn't changed. And, of course, the bottom fell out of the cocaine market because of the complete failure to stem the production or importation of the stuff -- supply ran so far ahead of demand that it changed from an exotic drug used by rich stockbrokers to something any schoolkid can afford. And that's when everyone learned that it was addictive, after all (back when I was in school the "common knowledge" was that coke wasn't addictive -- but since almost nobody could afford enough of the stuff to possibly get hooked, that "knowledge" was clearly based on an inadequate empirical foundation). >Unfortunately, it seems to me that most of these government sanctioned crusades have turned into Big Business with their own self-interests at heart. I suspect many of these operations have a steak in keeping the status quo as is. > Well then they should "go veg" -- steak is bad for you (and rough on the cow, too). > They are not really all that interested in truly defeating the enemy, as it would eventually put them out of business as well. > > I think you may have too jaundiced a view of the government here. A head-on fight against a well-funded covert enemy is very difficult. And stopping importation of contraband at the border is easier if the border doesn't start out looking like a very, very long seive, as ours tends to be. I don't think you need to invoke conflict of interest and corruption to explain why a direct war on the drug producers would tend to be unsuccessful. >I realize one of the major arguments against implementing such a morally bankrupt choice is predicated on the premise that to do so would essentially mean governments are legitimizing the use of dangerous drugs, that it's a recipe to hook impressionable youth on deadly addictive drugs. Personally, I don't believe so. The drug education programs should make that devastatingly obvious. I'd view it as simply a pragmatic decision by governments to efficiently put all drug cartels permanently out of business, and by doing so recycling a large chunk of discretionary income back into the economy where it can be taxed while simultaneously funding useful programs. Actually...come to think of it, I suspect a number of unlisted government operations are probably being funded in exactly this way now, all under the table of course. > >"Blood Money!" some might protest. Perhaps so... Never the less, tell that to hoards of radiation victims streaming into over taxed hospitals as well as victims dieing horribly on the streets when the next "Holy Cleansing" goes off in the middle of New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles. > >It is, after all, your tax dollars at work. > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 09:21:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EGKowM022269; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:20:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EGKlLU022231; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:20:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:20:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c201c5888f$f37d6770$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: Subject: EUREKA: ortho-para Casimir pumping !! Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:20:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C58855.46AC1E90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C58855.46AC1E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A EUREKA moment (hopefully).... Don't know if the html 'formula' and 'graph' below will copy or not to = your email. Unless you have html on your email program, you may not be = able to see it (or my program may not even send it) - so here is the = executive summary: Notice that the ~300 K temperature is a thermodynamic balance transition = state for the ortho-para hydrogen distribution at the high end ! Now notice also that the MAHG is kept at the 300 K temperature !! NOT coincidental... just JLN being very *diligent* in finding the best = parameters, and very lucky, since he was apparently going into this = blind (as far as the correct theory) ! i.e when the MAHG system is kept at a thermodynamic balance point and = then "tickled" with brief pulses, it is allowed to "pump" the Casimir = force (beta-aether) energy, and at this high-rate/molecule (GHz) then = you have your OU coming from a Casimir PV =3D nRT effect - which is a = lot less controversial then many of the ideas that we have been playing = with. The dimensions are there, the resonance point is there (close = anyway), the thermodynamic balance point is there - am I missing = anything? I am still trying to get a handle on the exact numbers, but as you can = see the formula is not exactly a cake-walk... more like and egg-walk.=20 Preliminary indications from other indicia are that this explanation is = RIGHT-ON the money for the exact OU level which is seen here (given the = known Casimir input at the Forster radius and the lesser-know *inversion = temperature* which is the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands = - for H2 it is 205 K. it is all fitting together very nicely for an hour = of work! but some of the assumptions may not hold up, we will see) But anyway: a possible Eureka moment. I think we are getting somewhere = today towards a bit more exact understanding of the dynamics, thanks to = Frank and Fred and the other inputs on this. This is the real value of = an open source project, and if we can get some confidence in the actual = experimental numbers, then this device is looking a lot like Puthoff's = long-sought-after Casimir "zitterbewegung" thermodynamic heat pump! ... = and we should probably drop the "atomic" from the name and put in = "Casimir," or "beta-aether" if this explanation holds up under scrutiny. Some simplified info: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Ortho-ParaHydrogen.html More detail from, paraphrased below: http://www.hydropole.ch/Hydropole/Intro/Hydrogen.htm Quantum mechanics requires that the wave function of a molecule must be = antisymmetric with respect to the interchange of the space coordinates = of two fermions (spin =3D 1/2), and symmetric for the interchange of = bosons (spin =3D 1).=20 Thus the wave function of a H2 molecule should be antisymmetric on = interchange of two protons. There are a total of (2I+1) 2 combinations = of nuclear spin states for two identical nuclei of spin I, of which = (2I+1)(I+1) states are symmetric and (2I+1)I are antisymmetric with = respect to the interchange of the nuclei.=20 Consequently there are two kinds of hydrogen molecules in the singlet = state, namely, ortho-hydrogen (symmetric, with parallel nuclear spins = =AD=AD) and para-hydrogen (antisymmetric, with antiparallel nuclear = spins). There is a small energy "gap" between the two, indicative of the = entropy. Energies and wave functions of rotational states (J) of a para-hydrogen = and an ortho-hydrogen molecule. The total nuclear spin I is 0 or 1, = respectively and the rotational quantum number is 0, 1, 2. [7] The = population ratio of ortho-hydrogen to para-hydrogen in thermal = equilibrium is given by this formula: =20 At low temperature p-H2 can be present in a virtually pure state. The = conversion of o-H2 is exothermic and a function of temperature as seen = below. Getting into the correct temperature range must assume some = extreme damping in order to effectively lower the temperature, but this = is too coincidental not to be the case: When hydrogen is cooled from room temperature (300 K) towards the normal = boiling point (nbp =3D 21.2K) the ortho hydrogen converts from an = equilibrium concentration of 75% at RT down to 50% at 77K, which is = never reached in this tube, of course. But there is still a few = percentage points of change and a very high collision rate. However, this idea strongly indicates that the delta-T cannot be greatly = enhanced, and even if the device would benefit greatly from lower = cryogenic wall temperature - that would be counter productive as far as = net energy extraction - therefore there is the good-new/ bad-news = scenario of this being probably a **real** OU effect, due to Casimir, = but one in which it the best use for it is likely going to be for space = heating with only a few degrees of spread - unless - that is, a = Sterling-type thermoacoustic converter can be added. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C58855.46AC1E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A EUREKA moment = (hopefully)....

Don't know=20 if the html 'formula' and 'graph' below will copy or not to your email. = Unless=20 you have html on your email program, you may not be able to see it (or = my=20 program may not even send it) - so here is the executive = summary:

Notice=20 that the ~300 K temperature is a thermodynamic balance transition state = for the=20 ortho-para hydrogen distribution at the high end !

Now notice = also that=20 the MAHG is kept at the 300 K temperature !!

NOT coincidental... = just JLN=20 being very *diligent* in finding the best parameters, and very lucky, = since he=20 was apparently going into this blind (as far as the correct theory) = !

i.e=20 when the MAHG system is kept at a thermodynamic balance point and then = "tickled"=20 with brief pulses, it is allowed to "pump" the Casimir force = (beta-aether)=20 energy, and at this high-rate/molecule (GHz) then you have your OU = coming from a=20 Casimir PV =3D nRT effect - which is a lot less controversial then many = of the=20 ideas that we have been playing with. The dimensions are there, the = resonance=20 point is there (close anyway), the thermodynamic balance point is there = - am I=20 missing anything?

I am still trying to get a handle on the exact = numbers,=20 but as you can see the formula is not exactly a cake-walk... more like = and=20 egg-walk.

Preliminary indications from other indicia are that = this=20 explanation is RIGHT-ON the money for the exact OU level which is seen = here=20 (given the known Casimir input at the Forster radius and the lesser-know = *inversion temperature* which is the 'normal' effect of cooling when a = gas=20 expands - for H2 it is 205 K. it is all fitting together very nicely for = an hour=20 of work! but some of the assumptions may not hold up, we will = see)

But=20 anyway: a possible Eureka moment. I think we are getting somewhere today = towards=20 a bit more exact understanding of the dynamics, thanks to Frank and Fred = and the=20 other inputs on this. This is the real value of an open source project, = and if=20 we can get some confidence in the actual experimental numbers, then this = device=20 is looking a lot like Puthoff's long-sought-after Casimir = "zitterbewegung"=20 thermodynamic heat pump!  ... and we should probably drop the = "atomic" from=20 the name and put in "Casimir," or "beta-aether" if this explanation = holds up=20 under scrutiny.

Some simplified info:
= http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Ortho-ParaHydrogen.html

More detail from, paraphrased below:
http://www.= hydropole.ch/Hydropole/Intro/Hydrogen.htm

Quantum mechanics requires that the wave function of a molecule = must be=20 antisymmetric with respect to the interchange of the space coordinates = of two=20 fermions (spin =3D 1/2), and symmetric for the interchange of bosons = (spin =3D 1).=20

Thus the wave function of a H2 molecule should be antisymmetric = on=20 interchange of two protons. There are a total of (2I+1) 2 combinations = of=20 nuclear spin states for two identical nuclei of spin I, of which = (2I+1)(I+1)=20 states are symmetric and (2I+1)I are antisymmetric with respect to the=20 interchange of the nuclei.

Consequently there are two kinds of = hydrogen=20 molecules in the singlet state, namely, ortho-hydrogen (symmetric, with = parallel=20 nuclear spins ­­) and para-hydrogen (antisymmetric, with = antiparallel=20 nuclear spins). There is a small energy "gap" between the two, = indicative of the=20 entropy.

Energies and wave functions of rotational states (J) of = a=20 para-hydrogen and an ortho-hydrogen molecule. The total nuclear spin I = is 0 or=20 1, respectively and the rotational quantum number is 0, 1, 2=85 [7] The = population=20 ratio of ortho-hydrogen to para-hydrogen in thermal equilibrium is given = by this=20 formula:

 
At low temperature p-H2 can be present in a = virtually=20 pure state. The conversion of o-H2 is exothermic and a function of = temperature=20 as seen below. Getting into the correct temperature range must assume = some=20 extreme damping in order to effectively lower the temperature, but this = is too=20 coincidental not to be the case:


When hydrogen is cooled from = room=20 temperature (300 K) towards the normal boiling point (nbp =3D 21.2K) the = ortho=20 hydrogen converts from an equilibrium concentration of 75% at RT down to = 50% at=20 77K, which is never reached in this tube, of course. But there is still = a few=20 percentage points of change and a very high collision = rate.

However, this=20 idea strongly indicates that the delta-T cannot be greatly enhanced, and = even if=20 the device would benefit greatly from lower cryogenic wall temperature - = that=20 would be counter productive as far as net energy extraction  - = therefore=20 there is the good-new/ bad-news scenario of this being probably a = **real** OU=20 effect, due to Casimir, but one in which it the best use for it is = likely going=20 to be for space heating with only a few degrees of spread - unless - = that is, a=20 Sterling-type thermoacoustic converter can be=20 added.

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C58855.46AC1E90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 09:29:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EGT3lq026421; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:29:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EGSxHi026358; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:28:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:28:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050714120640.043e1440 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:28:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Home on LeGrange In-Reply-To: <4403a9$16du9vq mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4403a9$16du9vq mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >The "product" purchased at fair-market value by governments should >eventually be sold by governments at substantially reduced prices on the >streets, so to speak - and by doing so undercut the artificially pumped up >profits . . . This is not such a radical or unprecedented suggestion. Variations of this plan have been implemented in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, with varying success. It probably works better than today's "war on drugs," and it is certainly more cost-effective. Steve's plan is far too radical, but in the US, doctors, police and city officials have suggested a program along the following lines for heroin and cocaine: Addicts register with the police without fear of punishment. In return, they are admitted to drug treatment programs. If it is determined that an addict has a long-term genuine addiction that is probably untreatable, he is given a prescription for maintenance level doses of the drug. He purchases the drug at a pharmacy, and he has to undergo monthly or semiannual checkups with drug treatment physicians. No advertising of the product would be allowed, and no one under 18 would be given a prescription. This would not solve the entire problem by any means, but it probably would improve the situation. No one can say what fraction of the addict population would participate. At least it would give some addicts a way to escape the cycle of crime, prison and poverty. I think it would be good idea to treat cigarettes and chewing tobacco the same way. They cause far more harm than cocaine or heroin. They should be available with a doctor's prescription, after a doctor certifies that the patient is chemically addicted. They should be sold in in plain, black and white packages in drugstores, which come with a long list of medical cautions and photographs of cancerous patients. Advertising should never be allowed. In other words they should be treated as "semi-controlled" dangerous substances, which are highly regulated, like a powerful insecticide, a vial of mercury, or an explosive. There is no point to making things like cocaine or tobacco fully illegal -- it just does not work. But that does not mean we have to make them freely available to everyone and anyone. We need a pragmatic, middle-ground solution that addresses the legitimate concerns that led people to ban these substances a century ago. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 09:35:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EGZ4Iu029606; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:35:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EGZ1NB029546; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:35:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:35:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vtna$11fa03h mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,290,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1123352689:sNHT15870304" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Home on LeGrange Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:34:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > From Orionworks > >An extremely OT essay follows. You have been warned! ;-) > > > > > Indeed! But I had a couple comments none the less. ... Hi Stephen, You make several valid points concerning my "jaundiced" view of the drug cartel situation. My rant was to a large extent meant to stir the pot, just as much as it was to simply step up on the soapbox for a brief twenty minutes of fame. Yes, clinics, would probably be a better place to sell addictive drugs as compared to "the streets." However, you need to go where the customers are. In any case, whether governments can turn the entire drug selling operation into a "business" that fully funds its own operations or whether it would have to be heavily subsidized is to a large extent irrelevant. Either way, I suspect it would end up being significantly cheaper to fund than the current batch of morally righteous funded operations. Come to think of it, it probably would be in our best interest that the operations remain subsidized as there would be more of an incentive to eventually make it go away. And now, back to our regularly scheduled MAHG programming topics. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 10:37:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EHawQx024677; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:37:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EHahkt024609; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:36:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:36:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c5889a$864afe50$e9027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Home on LaGrange Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:36:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C58870.9CF31C20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C58870.9CF31C20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C58870.9CF31C20" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C58870.9CF31C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe two S's . Staven and Stephen present a valid solution to drugs = as many have proposed over the decades since China woke up one morning = with a drug problem " Opium wars"=20 The wicked witch of the west caught a splash of water in the face and = went down screaming.. you wretched child !! you've destroyed my = beautiful wickedness.. I hate you, I hate you !! I even hate your dog... Any attempt to thwart the flow of drugs will be met with like = opposition.. get your bucket ready if you want to put out the fire = burning the straw man. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C58870.9CF31C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The two S's . Staven and Stephen present a valid solution to drugs = as many=20 have proposed over the decades since China woke up one morning with a = drug=20 problem " Opium wars"
 
The wicked witch of the west caught a splash of water in the face = and went=20 down screaming.. you wretched child !! you've destroyed my beautiful=20 wickedness.. I hate you, I hate you !! I even hate your dog...
 
Any attempt to thwart the flow of drugs will be met with like = opposition..=20 get your bucket ready if you want to put out the fire burning the straw=20 man.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C58870.9CF31C20-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C58870.9CF31C20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c5889a$85c15bf0$e9027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C58870.9CF31C20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 13:58:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EKw4mH020390; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:58:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EKw2or020376; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:58:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:58:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Casimir Heat-Pump Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:57:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050714205748.VOAK27701.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > But > just mechanical vibration may be enough. If electrical input is > needed it is most likely because it is impossible to get a low > duty cycle with mechanical vibration. If this is true, then the thermoacoustic approach could provide a positive *mechanical* feedback to drive the ortho-para catalyst reaction. Now, *that* would be magic! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 14:25:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6ELP2DS001018; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:25:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ELOwgg000964; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:24:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:24:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vtj5$11cvm31 mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,290,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1120917601:sNHT45485558" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Synthetics drive diamond revolution Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:23:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, (and Chris especially) I suspect some might find the following article of interest: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/07/14/diamonds.synthetics.reut/index.html or http://tinyurl.com/b84ne Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 14:47:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6ELkNeq009879; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:46:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ELkLrL009854; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:46:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:46:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vthu$11lhjam mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,290,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1129893206:sNHT15891884" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: New space race for tourists Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:45:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following article pretty much confirms a lot of our frustrations concerning the fact the commercialization of space (by rich tourists) is considered a far more sexy topic than some modest funding of a few "OU" prototypes. I wish this attitude would change soon. http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/13/news/midcaps/space_race/index.htm http://tinyurl.com/7epqk OTOH, if you can beat them perhaps it?s time to join forces! Surely I would think that a number of fledgling enterprises (perhaps even Virgin Galactic) could easily see the advantages of having ?free energy? devices powering their luxury hotels circling the planet 250 miles up in the sky. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 15:20:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EMKF5N024042; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:20:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EMKBAD024009; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:20:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:20:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050714173827.043da830 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:19:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Synthetics drive diamond revolution In-Reply-To: <43vtj5$11cvm31 mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <43vtj5$11cvm31 mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <6uKCWB.A.D3F.aUu1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Years ago I knew someone who is trying to develop palladium on diamond cold fusion cathodes because he thought the biggest problem with cold fusion was that the heat destroys the substrate. He thought that only a diamond could conduct the heat away from the Palladium quickly enough. I do not know what happened to that project but I think he had a good point. Obviously mass production of this would call for synthetic diamonds. The real value of synthetic diamonds will be the technology they give rise to, such as semiconductors and the excavation machinery I described in chapter 6 of the book. But I think they will also serve as jewelry to everyone's satisfaction except the people at DeBeers. I find this statement amusing: "'[Synthetic diamonds] are chemically, physically and optically identical to mined diamonds,' said Robert Linares. '(But) we would prefer the fiancee to know she's got an Apollo diamond.' De Beers says synthetic production poses little threat to its market for traditional mined gems, quoting research showing that 94 percent of women want real -- not synthetic -- diamonds." That is ridiculous. 99% of women in the future will not give a fig where the diamond comes from. When the Japanese biologist K. Mikimoto developed cultured pearls grown in oysters on farms in the late 19th century, jewelry experts said that discriminating customers would never buy them. Discriminating customers eventually learned that cultured pearls are larger and of better quality than naturally occurring ones. As far as I know all pearl jewelry today is cultured. The price of pearls has plummeted. In 1917, Pierre Cartier traded a long pearl necklace worth $2 million for a Manhattan mansion . Today I believe a large necklace of that quality would cost ~$50,000. There was one sold in 1993 for a record $2.3 million -- just a little more than the 1917 price. Of course, some people -- especially rich people -- will lose interest in diamonds when diamonds become as cheap as dirt. But millions more will buy diamonds, and the overall value of diamond jewelry will probably increase. The total market value of computers is much higher today than it was in 1979 when I purchased my first "personal" computer: a $30,000 Data General Nova minicomputer. Someday I hope that we will develop "replicator"; that is, equipment that can make perfect copies of paintings, sculpture and other works of art. (And of course, pearls, semiconductors and steak dinners.) I mean exact copies down to the level of the molecule and the atom. Any person anywhere will be free to decorate his house with a painting by Modigliani or Rembrandt that is physically indistinguishable from the original at the museum. When this becomes possible, people will finally appreciate art for art's sake and not as "collectibles" or incredibly expensive objects. The only problem with this will be that living artists will lose their market. This has already happened to young classical musicians. Today's recording techniques are so good that most customers are satisfied with recordings of Beethoven or Mozart made 30 years ago, so there is no market for new recordings, and a diminished market for live concerts. A replicator would really reduce the crowds at major museums such as the Louvre, but I do not think it would abolish museums. Many of them -- especially the smaller ones -- will still have value because they put paintings in context. The Phillips Gallery in Washington DC is a prime example. The house itself is a work of art, and it was designed the same time the paintings in it were being made. Anyone truly interested in El Greco must visit the museum of his works in Toledo, Spain. Indeed, the whole city of Toledo and the view of the city across the river has been preserved much as he painted it, thanks to his influence. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 16:04:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EN3ftG008640; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:03:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EN3dBr008619; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:03:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:03:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LQ2JhYbL6LUSTZlELaT+1HgdR9KfkjlTR9bgP58THa59fwRkuzE+t2MfOOle6qu50uVv/W3JmbIQrx8MvXtOU9ifDFMjJ2nu54JNaDpXGRdKSpP9W8o6+cBVj7beIqKc+SkfFd4BAUr1JXP3g87WwUjnVt2grqrhqVGhmJ28cys= ; Message-ID: <20050714230324.83228.qmail web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:03:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Synthetics drive diamond revolution To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050714173827.043da830 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-702599989-1121382204=:81265" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-702599989-1121382204=:81265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jed, Maybe you know someone interested in investing in my work, semi-conductive - synthetic nano diamond powder. I see the greatest value in high current diodes and diamond transistors, with gem markets left to Apollo or De Beers. Chris http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 Jed Rothwell wrote: Years ago I knew someone who is trying to develop palladium on diamond cold fusion cathodes because he thought the biggest problem with cold fusion was that the heat destroys the substrate. He thought that only a diamond could conduct the heat away from the Palladium quickly enough. I do not know what happened to that project but I think he had a good point. Obviously mass production of this would call for synthetic diamonds. The real value of synthetic diamonds will be the technology they give rise to, such as semiconductors and the excavation machinery I described in chapter 6 of the book. But I think they will also serve as jewelry to everyone's satisfaction except the people at DeBeers. I find this statement amusing: "'[Synthetic diamonds] are chemically, physically and optically identical to mined diamonds,' said Robert Linares. '(But) we would prefer the fiancee to know she's got an Apollo diamond.' De Beers says synthetic production poses little threat to its market for traditional mined gems, quoting research showing that 94 percent of women want real -- not synthetic -- diamonds." That is ridiculous. 99% of women in the future will not give a fig where the diamond comes from. When the Japanese biologist K. Mikimoto developed cultured pearls grown in oysters on farms in the late 19th century, jewelry experts said that discriminating customers would never buy them. Discriminating customers eventually learned that cultured pearls are larger and of better quality than naturally occurring ones. As far as I know all pearl jewelry today is cultured. The price of pearls has plummeted. In 1917, Pierre Cartier traded a long pearl necklace worth $2 million for a Manhattan mansion . Today I believe a large necklace of that quality would cost ~$50,000. There was one sold in 1993 for a record $2.3 million -- just a little more than the 1917 price. Of course, some people -- especially rich people -- will lose interest in diamonds when diamonds become as cheap as dirt. But millions more will buy diamonds, and the overall value of diamond jewelry will probably increase. The total market value of computers is much higher today than it was in 1979 when I purchased my first "personal" computer: a $30,000 Data General Nova minicomputer. Someday I hope that we will develop "replicator"; that is, equipment that can make perfect copies of paintings, sculpture and other works of art. (And of course, pearls, semiconductors and steak dinners.) I mean exact copies down to the level of the molecule and the atom. Any person anywhere will be free to decorate his house with a painting by Modigliani or Rembrandt that is physically indistinguishable from the original at the museum. When this becomes possible, people will finally appreciate art for art's sake and not as "collectibles" or incredibly expensive objects. The only problem with this will be that living artists will lose their market. This has already happened to young classical musicians. Today's recording techniques are so good that most customers are satisfied with recordings of Beethoven or Mozart made 30 years ago, so there is no market for new recordings, and a diminished market for live concerts. A replicator would really reduce the crowds at major museums such as the Louvre, but I do not think it would abolish museums. Many of them -- especially the smaller ones -- will still have value because they put paintings in context. The Phillips Gallery in Washington DC is a prime example. The house itself is a work of art, and it was designed the same time the paintings in it were being made. Anyone truly interested in El Greco must visit the museum of his works in Toledo, Spain. Indeed, the whole city of Toledo and the view of the city across the river has been preserved much as he painted it, thanks to his influence. - Jed --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-702599989-1121382204=:81265 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Jed,
 
Maybe you know someone interested in investing in my work, semi-conductive - synthetic nano diamond powder. I see the greatest value in high current diodes and diamond transistors, with gem markets left to Apollo or De Beers.
 
Chris
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59

Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
Years ago I knew someone who is trying to develop palladium on diamond cold
fusion cathodes because he thought the biggest problem with cold fusion was
that the heat destroys the substrate. He thought that only a diamond could
conduct the heat away from the Palladium quickly enough. I do not know what
happened to that project but I think he had a good point. Obviously mass
production of this would call for synthetic diamonds.

The real value of synthetic diamonds will be the technology they give rise
to, such as semiconductors and the excavation machinery I described in
chapter 6 of the book. But I think they will also serve as jewelry to
everyone's satisfaction except the people at DeBeers. I find this statement
amusing:

"'[Synthetic diamonds] are chemically, physically and optically identical
to mined diamonds,' said Robert Linares. '(But) we would prefer the fiancee
to know she's got an Apollo diamond.'

De Beers says synthetic production poses little threat to its market for
traditional mined gems, quoting research showing that 94 percent of women
want real -- not synthetic -- diamonds."

That is ridiculous. 99% of women in the future will not give a fig where
the diamond comes from. When the Japanese biologist K. Mikimoto developed
cultured pearls grown in oysters on farms in the late 19th century, jewelry
experts said that discriminating customers would never buy them.
Discriminating customers eventually learned that cultured pearls are larger
and of better quality than naturally occurring ones. As far as I know all
pearl jewelry today is cultured. The price of pearls has plummeted. In
1917, Pierre Cartier traded a long pearl necklace worth $2 million for a
Manhattan mansion . Today I believe a large necklace of that quality would
cost ~$50,000. There was one sold in 1993 for a record $2.3 million -- just
a little more than the 1917 price.

Of course, some people -- especially rich people -- will lose interest in
diamonds when diamonds become as cheap as dirt. But millions more will buy
diamonds, and the overall value of diamond jewelry will probably increase.
The total market value of computers is much higher today than it was in
1979 when I purchased my first "personal" computer: a $30,000 Data General
Nova minicomputer.

Someday I hope that we will develop "replicator"; that is, equipment that
can make perfect copies of paintings, sculpture and other works of art.
(And of course, pearls, semiconductors and steak dinners.) I mean exact
copies down to the level of the molecule and the atom. Any person anywhere
will be free to decorate his house with a painting by Modigliani or
Rembrandt that is physically indistinguishable from the original at the
museum. When this becomes possible, people will finally appreciate art for
art's sake and not as "collectibles" or incredibly expensive objects.

The only problem with this will be that living artists will lose their
market. This has already happened to young classical musicians. Today's
recording techniques are so good that most customers are satisfied with
recordings of Beethoven or Mozart made 30 years ago, so there is no market
for new recordings, and a diminished market for live concerts.

A replicator would really reduce the crowds at major museums such as the
Louvre, but I do not think it would abolish museums. Many of them --
especially the smaller ones -- will still have value because they put
paintings in context. The Phillips Gallery in Washington DC is a prime
example. The house itself is a work of art, and it was designed the same
time the paintings in it were being made. Anyone truly interested in El
Greco must visit the museum of his works in Toledo, Spain. Indeed, the
whole city of Toledo and the view of the city across the river has been
preserved much as he painted it, thanks to his influence.

- Jed


Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-702599989-1121382204=:81265-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 17:01:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6F004hn002178; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:01:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ENlK6t028328; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:47:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:47:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vth7$trm76q mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,291,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1002118362:sNHT35351868" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Synthetics drive diamond revolution Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:47:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jed sez: >... > The only problem with [replicators] will be that > living artists will lose their market. This has > already happened to young classical musicians. > Today's recording techniques are so good that > most customers are satisfied with recordings of > Beethoven or Mozart made 30 years ago, so there > is no market for new recordings, and a diminished > market for live concerts. Being an artist myself (though certainly not making a living as one) I've pondered this issue more than once. I suspect that when replicators eventually become available artists will not need to worry about making a living to "pay the rent", nor any other expense for that matter. ;-) As for musicians and those working by choice in all sorts of creative endeavors I suspect there may actually be a renaissance since everybody will have so much more free time on their hands that attending creative events of all mediums will drive much of what the population does from day to day. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 13:24:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6EKNltP004659; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:23:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6EKNhvO004627; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:23:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:23:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c588b1$e5773170$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: "vortex" Subject: The Casimir Heat-Pump Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:23:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: To recap this round of speculation, and to try to put the relevant thermodynamic issues into one post : Orthohydrogen is unstable at low temperatures, and changes to the more stable parahydrogen (higher entropy isomer) over time, liberating heat. This can be accelerated catalytically, even at higher temperature. At 300 K the ortho/para ratio is 3-1 and gets no higher (not significantly higher). Consequently 300 K is the "tipping point" for maximizing any thermodynamic asymmetry of isomerism. Temperature and pressure are usually closely and linear-related though the ideal gas laws. An ideal gas is defined as one in which all collisions between atoms or molecules are perfectly elastic and in which there are no intermolecular forces (like Van der Waals or the Casimir). One can visualize an ideal gas as a collection of perfectly hard spheres which collide (hard ball collisions) but which otherwise do not interact with each other. In such a gas, all the internal energy is in the form of kinetic energy and any change in internal energy is accompanied by a change in temperature. The Casimir force comes into play at a certain distance, and the normal kinetic energy can be increased or decreased, (as the Casimir is not always attractive). In fact, just to complicate things, the Casimir is often repulsive when the media is spherical Although this force might appear small, at distances below a micron, the Casimir becomes the strongest force between two neutral objects. Indeed at separations of 10 nm - about a hundred times the typical size of an atom - the Casimir effect produces the equivalent of 1 atmosphere of pressure which can be converted into temperature using the gas laws (not ideal however). And this increases at a power-of-four law down to the Forster radius, then nearly disappears at closer distances. Here is a popular article on the Casimir: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/6 An ideal gas can be characterized by three state variables: absolute pressure (P), volume (V), and absolute temperature (T). The relationship between them may be deduced from kinetic theory and is PV=nRT=NkT where n = number of moles R = universal gas constant = 8.3145 J/mol K N = number of molecules k = Boltzmann constant = 1.38066 x 10e-23 J/K = 8.617385 x 10e-5 eV/K k = R/N*A A= Avogadro's number = 6.0221 x 10e23 /mol One mole of an ideal gas at STP occupies 22.4 liters. The temperature is taken to be proportional to this average kinetic energy. It is important to note that the average kinetic energy used here is limited to the translational kinetic energy of the molecules - treated as point masses and no account is made of internal degrees of freedom such as molecular rotation, i.e. the ortho-para distinction, or vibration. This distinction becomes quite important when you deal with subjects like the specific heats of gases, phase change and chemical isomers. Since orthohydrogen molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at room temperature, this can considerably complicate the job of such tasks as storing liquid hydrogen, should that be your goal. If you convert them catalytically to parahydrogen they will give up a small amount of heat. Normally that heat would be recaptured, except in those circumstances where the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands is suspended. This is known as the *inversion temperature* which in air (oxygen or nitrogen) is way too high to matter and for atmospheric gases is ignored - but for H2 it is 205 K - so the ability of H2 gas to recover heat given up is limited. Normally it would be limited to contact with the metal containment. A further complication arises in that H2 might be absorbed temporarily as a hydride first in that situation -so we are getting into three or four different and overlapping thermodynamic situations. Nevertheless, if there is excess heat - the Casimir force is the key. But to reap - if air initially at a moderate temperature is expanded through a valve, its temperature decrease because it is below the inversion temperature, and the expansion will cause a temperature reduction as the result of what is called the Joule-Thomson effect. The inversion temperatures of hydrogen is much lower than ambient, however, and it will not achieve a temperature reduction through expansion, (unless precooled below its inversion temperatures), but can be cooled by hydride absorption/release from a high surface area metal - in which case its heat is given up to the metal - which can also be a catalyst for ortho-para conversion or para-ortho conversions. Are you with me? Without an ortho-para conversion catalyst, extra refrigeration equipment is required to remove the heat generated by natural ortho-para hydrogen conversion. That is why we have these catalysts available commercially NOW !. Although tungsten may be a catalyst for ortho--> para there are far better ones available for the reverse situation - indicating that the MAHG can be improved significantly by incorporating such a catalyst.!! But cycling orthohydrogen to parahydrogen and back again by contact with a metal, with a pulsation rate that can change the PV characteristics of hydrogen at low pressure, we can possibly put the Casimir force to work even more than the 20-1 COP found by Naudin, but with no greater delta-T (probably). This is especially true when the spacing between molecules is in the range of the Forster radius, which is around 1-2 nanometers. The normal H2 molecular radius is 10 times less but in a gas at 80 torr and at a high effective temperature, this Forster radius is coming into play. I think Frederick may have gotten the temperature estimate a little high at >5000 degrees, but anyway lets look at ortho-para catalysts. This is C*Chem's site: http://www.cchem.com/opcat/ C*CHEM's makes a IONEX-type O-P Catalyst for the conversion of orthohydrogen to parahydrogen. This is a solid, granular hydrous ferric oxide with a high surface area. This high surface area, in conjunction with the ferromagnetic properties of the catalyst, results in an unusually effective catalyst for converting orthohydrogen to parahydrogen. Unfortunately it is not a cathode material - but in this case, if the MAHG is operating as suggested the hot cathode is a total waste. In fact all electrical input may be unneeded unless the catalytic effect is heightened by it. To maximize the effect we should at least be using a cold cathode like lanthanum boride along with the Ionex-type O-P Catalyst. But just mechanical vibration may be enough. If electrical input is needed it is most likely because it is impossible to get a low duty cycle with mechanical vibration. At least that is the analysis du jour. Take it with the traditional accompaniment - the grain of salt - maybe the whole salt-shaker. Stay tuned for the next installment (which may look totally different from today's Casimir heat-pump. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 20:11:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6F3BGtI025605; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:11:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6F3BEgS025583; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:11:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:11:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c588ea$d491d8e0$f2027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Ozone- new technology Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:11:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C588C0.EB2499F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C588C0.EB2499F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0023_01C588C0.EB2499F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C588C0.EB2499F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAh! Ozone.. Surely there is a better technology to use for generating ozone gas for = disinfecting water in quanities. The systems I have seen appear stone = age. Somebody out there has generated ozone using another technology = that may fit what I am looking for. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C588C0.EB2499F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Ah! Ozone..
 
Surely there is a better technology to use for generating ozone gas = for=20 disinfecting water in quanities. The systems I have seen appear stone = age.=20 Somebody out there has generated ozone using another technology that may = fit=20 what I am looking for.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C588C0.EB2499F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C588C0.EB2499F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002101c588ea$d3e9d910$f2027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C588C0.EB2499F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 14 20:17:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6F3HDFI028046; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:17:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6F3HCOF028028; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:17:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:17:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD066 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Home on LeGrange Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:06:16 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > From: thomas malloy > > > Did you hear the NewsMax story about Al Quieda having > > 20 nukes in America? > > World Net Daily elaborates: > > http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45246 > >An extremely OT essay follows. You have been warned! ;-) >Pertaining to the WorldNetDaily.com article and of particular interest to me: >"Bin Laden, according to Williams, has nearly unlimited funds to spend on his nuclear terrorism plan because he has remained in control of the Afghanistan-produced heroin industry. Poppy production has greatly increased even while U.S. troops are occupying the country, he writes. Al-Qaida has developed close relations with the Albanian Mafia, which assists in the smuggling and sale of heroin throughout Europe and the U.S. " * * * * * In Tasmania, Australia, there is a large commercial interest in the production of Opium for Pharmaceutical purposes. These farmers grow Opium Poppies under an international licence, the Opium is then manufactured in to "Opiate derived" pharmaceuticals. I'm sure these farmers are making huge profits even considering the huge security overheads they are required to outlay to keep their licences and prevent inevitable theft of their crops. If the Pharmaceutical Companies were able to purchase their raw product directly from the illegal growers (substantially less than they pay licensees/substantially more than the illegal growers currently get) then it would pave the way to cheaper pharmaceuticals, morphine, pethidine, codeine etc. Australia was the last country in the "Western World" to ban the use of Heroine as a prescription pain killer. Medical Practitioners to this date still claim that heroine is one of the best drugs available (better and with less side effects than morphine) for chronic pain management? Australia finally bent to the pressure of "International Interests" (had something to do with USA/Australia trade agreements) and banned its use because it is an "Evil" drug!!!! Sound similar to what was done in the USA regarding "Indian Hemp" early last century? Regards, John Rudiger. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 00:12:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6F7CNvg026145; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:12:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6F7CL1R026127; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:12:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:12:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4403a9$16du9vq mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4403a9$16du9vq mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:11:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Home on LeGrange Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote, and > > From: Terry Blanton > > >"Bin Laden, according to Williams, has nearly unlimited funds to >spend on his nuclear terrorism plan because he has remained in >control of the >"Blood Money!" some might protest. Perhaps so... Never the less, >tell that to hoards of radiation victims streaming into over taxed >hospitals as well as victims dieing > >It is, after all, your tax dollars at work. > I've been reading the works of Antony Sutton, all one word .com , an academic who investigated the activities of the American Ruling Elite. The titles of the books say it all, Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution and Wall Street and the Nazis. Some of the family fortunes had their genesis in the China Trade, trafficing opium from India to China. Having witnessed first hand the deleterious effects of mind altering drugs, I understand why society felt compelled to ban them. OTOH, the effects of prohibition have been at least as bad. As for Al Queda's nukes, that's our petro dollars at work. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 01:59:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6F8wm5j002446; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:58:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6F8wklT002440; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:58:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:58:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=WaPkixa/g+TKvWIz4c7Vw0gkIAQsj3Tcnv0EQJjo6ABt0wBc/k6gSNtW4+wp3th5; Message-ID: <410-2200575157593590 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Casimir Heat-Pump Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:59:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e2810e355546f6135e73a10fef16e6cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.74 Resent-Message-ID: <3wLKC.A.Am.Gr31CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > Since orthohydrogen molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at > room temperature, this can considerably complicate the job of such > tasks as storing liquid hydrogen, should that be your goal. If you > convert them catalytically to parahydrogen they will give up a > small amount of heat. Normally that heat would be recaptured, > except in those circumstances where the 'normal' effect of cooling > when a gas expands is suspended. This is known as the *inversion > temperature* which in air (oxygen or nitrogen) is way too high to > matter and for atmospheric gases is ignored - but for H2 it is 205 > K - so the ability of H2 gas to recover heat given up is limited. > Normally it would be limited to contact with the metal > containment. > > - if air initially at a moderate temperature is > expanded through a valve, its temperature decrease because it is > below the inversion temperature, and the expansion will cause a > temperature reduction as the result of what is called the > Joule-Thomson effect. The inversion temperatures of hydrogen is > much lower than ambient, however, and it will not achieve a > temperature reduction through expansion, (unless precooled below > its inversion temperatures), but can be cooled by hydride > absorption/release from a high surface area metal - in which case > its heat is given up to the metal - which can also be a catalyst > for ortho-para conversion or para-ortho conversions. > Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Helium 51 Hydrogen (H2) 205 Neon 242 Nitrogen (N2) 621 Argon 723 Krypton 727 Xenon 1427 Oxygen (O2) 893 Might one deduce from this that under high pressure the monatomic gases He, Ne, & Argon etc. feel the Casmiri force? How about high pressure H2O (Steam) ? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones Beene wrote:
>
> Since orthohydrogen molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at
> room temperature, this can considerably complicate the job of such
> tasks as storing liquid hydrogen, should that be your goal. If you
> convert them catalytically to parahydrogen they will give up a
> small amount of heat. Normally that heat would be recaptured,
> except in those circumstances where the 'normal' effect of cooling
> when a gas expands is suspended. This is known as the *inversion
> temperature* which in air (oxygen or nitrogen) is way too high to
> matter and for atmospheric gases is ignored - but for H2 it is 205
> K - so the ability of H2 gas to recover heat given up is limited.
> Normally it would be limited to contact with the metal
> containment.
>
> - if air initially at a moderate temperature is
> expanded through a valve, its temperature decrease because it is
> below the inversion temperature, and the expansion will cause a
> temperature reduction as the result of what is called the
> Joule-Thomson effect. The inversion temperatures of hydrogen is
> much lower than ambient, however, and it will not achieve a
> temperature reduction through expansion, (unless precooled below
> its inversion temperatures), but can be cooled by hydride
> absorption/release from a high surface area metal - in which case
> its heat is given up to the metal - which can also be a catalyst
> for ortho-para conversion or para-ortho conversions.
>
 
Gas                Inversion Temp Deg K
 
Helium                     51
Hydrogen (H2)      205
Neon                        242
Nitrogen  (N2)        621
Argon                       723
Krypton                    727
Xenon                      1427                                                    
Oxygen  (O2)         893
 
Might one deduce from this that under high pressure
the monatomic gases He, Ne, & Argon etc. feel the Casmiri force?
 
How about high pressure H2O (Steam) ?
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 03:37:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FAaX10011802; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 03:36:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FAaTdr011758; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 03:36:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 03:36:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=k8FL1TNXoNH0TTwdOx2IYepw2fvfNYJ4rbfLoKrHXoTbFjTHrjTUJzpLTAOS+1i3; Message-ID: <410-22005751593624360 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: 6 Cylinder Casimir Engine Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:36:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404377b3af2c13f1e811b98b597d417810350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Going by this, an engine comprising a crankshaft with six "throws" 60 degrees apart, and a flywheel hooked by connecting rods to six ) thermally insulated cylinders pre pressurized with H2 (or other gases?) at pressures corresponding to their cycle position (then cranked over manually) should run indefinitely off the Casimir orho-para effect. No? Frederick > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > > Since orthohydrogen molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at > > room temperature, this can considerably complicate the job of such > > tasks as storing liquid hydrogen, should that be your goal. If you > > convert them catalytically to parahydrogen they will give up a > > small amount of heat. Normally that heat would be recaptured, > > except in those circumstances where the 'normal' effect of cooling > > when a gas expands is suspended. This is known as the *inversion > > temperature* which in air (oxygen or nitrogen) is way too high to > > matter and for atmospheric gases is ignored - but for H2 it is 205 > > K - so the ability of H2 gas to recover heat given up is limited. > > Normally it would be limited to contact with the metal > > containment. > > > > - if air initially at a moderate temperature is > > expanded through a valve, its temperature decrease because it is > > below the inversion temperature, and the expansion will cause a > > temperature reduction as the result of what is called the > > Joule-Thomson effect. The inversion temperatures of hydrogen is > > much lower than ambient, however, and it will not achieve a > > temperature reduction through expansion, (unless precooled below > > its inversion temperatures), but can be cooled by hydride > > absorption/release from a high surface area metal - in which case > > its heat is given up to the metal - which can also be a catalyst > > for ortho-para conversion or para-ortho conversions. >> > > Gas Inversion Temp Deg K > Helium 51 > Hydrogen (H2) 205 > Neon 242 > Nitrogen (N2) 621 > Argon 723 > Krypton 727 > Xenon 1427 &n! bsp; > Oxygen (O2) 893 > > Might one deduce from this that under high pressure > the monatomic gases He, Ne, & Argon etc. feel the Casmiri force? > > How about high pressure H2O (Steam) ? > > Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Going by this, an engine comprising a crankshaft with six "throws"
60 degrees apart, and a flywheel hooked by connecting rods to six ) thermally
insulated cylinders pre pressurized with H2 (or other gases?)  at pressures corresponding
to their cycle position (then cranked over manually) should run indefinitely off the Casimir
orho-para effect.  No?
 
Frederick
 
>
> Jones Beene wrote:
> >
> > Since orthohydrogen molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at
> > room temperature, this can considerably complicate the job of such
> > tasks as storing liquid hydrogen, should that be your goal. If you
> > convert them catalytically to parahydrogen they will give up a
> > small amount of heat. Normally that heat would be recaptured,
> > except in those circumstances where the 'normal' effect of cooling
> > when a gas expands is suspended. This is known as the *inversion
> > temperature* which in air (oxygen or nitrogen) is way too high to
> > matter and for atmospheric gases is ignored - but for H2 it is 205
> > K - so the ability of H2 gas to recover heat given up is limited.
> > Normally it would be limited to contact with the metal
> > containment.
> >
> > - if air initially at a moderate temperature is
> > expanded through a valve, its temperature decrease because it is
> > below the inversion temperature, and the expansion will cause a
> > temperature reduction as the result of what is called the
> > Joule-Thomson effect. The inversion temperatures of hydrogen is
> > much lower than ambient, however, and it will not achieve a
> > temperature reduction through expansion, (unless precooled below
> > its inversion temperatures), but can be cooled by hydride
> > absorption/release from a high surface area metal - in which case
> > its heat is given up to the metal - which can also be a catalyst
> > for ortho-para conversion or para-ortho conversions.
>>
>
> Gas                Inversion Temp Deg K
 
> Helium                     51
> Hydrogen (H2)      205
> Neon                        242
> Nitrogen  (N2)        621
> Argon                       723
> Krypton                    727
> Xenon                      1427 &n! bsp;                                                  
> Oxygen  (O2)         893
>
> Might one deduce from this that under high pressure
> the monatomic gases He, Ne, & Argon etc. feel the Casmiri force?
>
> How about high pressure H2O (Steam) ?
>
> Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 04:34:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FBYIM4002792; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:34:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FBYGEa002769; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:34:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:34:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=AFza22CPJx85ODc+W7a8zpEC8MZ9Boa2hYLtYJCu28w++w+7/kze+Gp9B5MpuAuH; Message-ID: <410-220057515103430100 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: 6 Cylinder Casimir Engine Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:34:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d9721ef4495421a4289ca785f3999433350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.25 Resent-Message-ID: <9mdSzC.A.Jr.3851CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Bellofram Rolling Diaphragm makes for a good piston. This 36 page pdf with lots of pictures gives the scoop on them. http://www.marshbellofram.com/pdfs/design_manual.pdf http://www.marshbellofram.com/diaphragm.htm Temperature ranges from -120F to 600F Fabrics for pressures up to 1,000 psi > > Going by this, an engine comprising a crankshaft with six "throws"60 degrees apart, > and a flywheel hooked by connecting rods to six ) thermally insulated cylinders > pre pressurized with H2 (or other gases?) at pressures corresponding to their > cycle position (then cranked over manually) should run indefinitely off the Casimir ortho-para effect. > Frederick > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > > Since orthohydrogen molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at > > room temperature, this can considerably complicate the job of such > > tasks as storing liquid hydrogen, should that be your goal. If you > > convert them catalytically to parahydrogen they will give up a > > small amount of heat. Normally that heat would be recaptured, > > except in those circumstances where the 'normal' effect of cooling > > when a gas expands is suspended. This is known as the *inversion > > temperature* which in air (oxygen or nitrogen) is way too high to > > matter and for atmospheric gases is ignored - but for H2 it is 205 > > K - so the ability of H2 gas to recover heat given up is limited. > > Normally it would be limited to contact with the metal > > containment. > > > > - if air initially at a moderate temperature is > > expanded through a valve, its temperature decrease because it is > > below the inversion temperature, and the expansion will cause a > > temperature reduction as the result of what is called the > > Joule-Thomson effect. The inversion temperatures of hydrogen is > > much lower than ambient, however, and it will not achieve a > > temperature reduction through expansion, (unless precooled below > > its inversion temperatures), but can be cooled by hydride > > absorption/release from a high surface area metal - in which case > > its heat is given up to the metal - which can also be a catalyst > > for ortho-para conversion or para-ortho conversions. >> > > Gas Inversion Temp Deg K > Helium 51 > Hydrogen (H2) 205 > Neon 242 > Nitrogen (N2) 621 > Argon 723 > Krypton 727 > Xenon 1427 > Oxygen (O2) 893 > > Might one deduce from this that under high pressure > the monatomic gases He, Ne, & Argon etc. feel the Casmiri force? > > How about high pressure H2O (Steam) ? > > Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The Bellofram Rolling Diaphragm makes for a good piston.
 
This 36 page pdf with lots of pictures gives the scoop on them.
 
 
 
  • Temperature ranges from -120F to 600F
  • Fabrics for pressures up to 1,000 psi
    >
    • > Going by this, an engine comprising a crankshaft with six "throws"60 degrees apart,
    > and a flywheel hooked by connecting rods to six ) thermally insulated cylinders
    > pre pressurized with H2 (or other gases?)  at pressures corresponding to their
    > cycle position (then cranked over manually) should run indefinitely off the Casimir  ortho-para effect. 
    >
     
    Frederick
    >
    > Jones Beene wrote:
    > >
    > > Since orthohydrogen molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at
    > > room temperature, this can considerably complicate the job of such
    > > tasks as storing liquid hydrogen, should that be your goal. If you
    > > convert them catalytically to parahydrogen they will give up a
    > > small amount of heat. Normally that heat would be recaptured,
    > > except in those circumstances where the 'normal' effect of cooling
    > > when a gas expands is suspended. This is known as the *inversion
    > > temperature* which in air (oxygen or nitrogen) is way too high to
    > > matter and for atmospheric gases is ignored - but for H2 it is 205
    > > K - so the ability of H2 gas to recover heat given up is limited.
    > > Normally it would be limited to contact with the metal
    > > containment.
    > >
    > > - if air initially at a moderate temperature is
    > > expanded through a valve, its temperature decrease because it is
    > > below the inversion temperature, and the expansion will cause a
    > > temperature reduction as the result of what is called the
    > > Joule-Thomson effect. The inversion temperatures of hydrogen is
    > > much lower than ambient, however, and it will not achieve a
    > > temperature reduction through expansion, (unless precooled below
    > > its inversion temperatures), but can be cooled by hydride
    > > absorption/release from a high surface area metal - in which case
    > > its heat is given up to the metal - which can also be a catalyst
    > > for ortho-para conversion or para-ortho conversions.
    >>
    >
    > Gas                Inversion Temp Deg K
     
    > Helium                     51
    > Hydrogen (H2)      205
    > Neon                        242
    > Nitrogen  (N2)        621
    > Argon                       723
    > Krypton                    727
    > Xenon                      1427                                                  
    > Oxygen  (O2)         893
    >
    > Might one deduce from this that under high pressure
    > the monatomic gases He, Ne, & Argon etc. feel the Casmiri force?
    >
    > How about high pressure H2O (Steam) ?
    >
    > Frederick
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 05:12:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FCCUhg018248; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:12:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FCCSb3018227; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:12:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:12:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c58936$6f3e2470$21027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Pharmaceuticals Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:12:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5890C.859B5690" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5890C.859B5690 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5890C.859B5690" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5890C.859B5690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn.Rudiger wrote on the home on LaGrange thread... >Australia was the last country in the "Western World" to ban the use of Heroine as a prescription pain killer. Medical Practitioners to this = date still claim that heroine is one of the best drugs available (better and = with less side effects than morphine) for chronic pain management? Australia finally bent to the pressure of "International Interests" (had something = to do with USA/Australia trade agreements) and banned its use because it is = an "Evil" drug!!!! Sound similar to what was done in the USA regarding = "Indian Hemp" early last century? Drugs are " cidf" (cash in da fist). The US government funded research = in so called " medical" drugs has reached unprecedented dollar amounts. = The designer drugs and now biogenetic research funds are the " fuel" for = the Texas Medical Center in Houston. Much so that two of the major = players ( Methodists and Baptists hospitals) have split and now been = fighting over the goodies. Add Bush bill for medicare prescription drugs that bends the budget some = 400 bil..oops..make that 800 bil and we see some real money changing = hands. Dare to go up against this " cartel" and get smashed. Enter now the " allergy " type drugs. Few had allergies three = generations ago. Now it is common for a test at the doctors to show that = of 100 base allergens, a person may be allergic to more than 50. Hmmm! = Does that sound like the modern day British tactic of subduing the = Chinese 2 centuries ago with opium?=20 Last count, the numbers of researchers in medicine, heart, cancer and = now AIDS research and the combined dollars spent in these catagories of = research make fusion energy research funding seem like peanuts. What we need is a scantily clad girl waering a Harley shirt draped = across the hood of a CF drag racer. Ya gotta sell the sizzles if ya = wanta make a buck!! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5890C.859B5690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    John.Rudiger wrote on the home on LaGrange thread...

    >Australia was the last country in the "Western World" to ban the = use=20 of
    Heroine as a prescription pain killer. Medical Practitioners to = this=20 date
    still claim that heroine is one of the best drugs available = (better and=20 with
    less side effects than morphine) for chronic pain management?=20 Australia
    finally bent to the pressure of "International Interests" = (had=20 something to
    do with USA/Australia trade agreements) and banned its = use=20 because it is an
    "Evil" drug!!!! Sound similar to what was done in = the USA=20 regarding "Indian
    Hemp" early last century?

    Drugs are " cidf"  (cash in da fist). The US government funded = research=20 in so called " medical" drugs has reached unprecedented dollar amounts. = The=20 designer drugs and now biogenetic research funds are the " fuel" for the = Texas=20 Medical Center in Houston. Much so that two of the major players ( = Methodists=20 and Baptists hospitals) have split and now been fighting over  the=20 goodies.

    Add Bush bill for medicare prescription drugs that bends the budget = some 400=20 bil..oops..make that 800 bil and we see some real money changing hands. = Dare to=20 go up against this " cartel" and get smashed.

    Enter now the " allergy " type drugs. Few had allergies three = generations=20 ago. Now it is common for a test at the doctors to show that of 100 base = allergens, a person may be allergic to more than 50. Hmmm! Does that = sound like=20 the modern day British tactic of subduing the Chinese 2 centuries ago = with=20 opium?

    Last count, the numbers of researchers in medicine, = heart, cancer and=20 now AIDS research and the combined dollars spent in these catagories of = research=20 make fusion energy research funding seem like peanuts.

    What we need is a scantily clad girl waering a Harley shirt = draped=20 across the hood of  a CF drag racer.  Ya gotta sell the = sizzles if ya=20 wanta make a buck!!

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5890C.859B5690-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5890C.859B5690 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c58936$6e63a2f0$21027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5890C.859B5690-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 05:57:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FCuiOB004280; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:56:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FCuYw4004219; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:56:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:56:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UfOCzzdwKT/CfW97j3ER1qqI3azKOleNHY7FsrwruUi0zANXDqQCN1idY0OtRhSU; Message-ID: <410-220057515115644280 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Rolamite Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:56:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d301fd1b2fad621d96df836b57464ade350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.250 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Don Wilkes came up with this while I was at Sandia Labs. Looks a lot like the leakporoof virtually frictionless Bellofram Rolling Diaphram. Big writeup in the Wall Street Journal too. http://www.rexresearch.com/wilkes/1wilkes.htm Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Don Wilkes came up with this while I was at Sandia Labs.
     
    Looks a lot like the leakporoof virtually frictionless Bellofram Rolling Diaphram.
     
    Big writeup in the Wall Street Journal too.
     
     
    Frederick
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 06:41:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FDf42c021635; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:41:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FDf2ME021605; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:41:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:41:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404qh$16mjkrp mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,292,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1298781049:sNHT18965562" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: RE: Home on LeGrange Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 9:40:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com ... > Australia was the last country in the "Western World" to > ban the use of Heroine as a prescription pain killer. > Medical Practitioners to this date still claim that > heroine is one of the best drugs available (better and > withless side effects than morphine) for chronic pain > management? Australia finally bent to the pressure > of "International Interests" (had something to > do with USA/Australia trade agreements) and banned its > use because it is an "Evil" drug!!!! Sound similar to > what was done in the USA regarding "Indian > Hemp" early last century? > > > Regards, > > John Rudiger. > This reminds me of a propaganda film titled "Refer Madness" a ridiculous attempt to show the horrors of smoking marijuana and the havoc it wreaks upon those who partake of the evil drug. I heard a rumor that the film was largely financed by the timber industry, making sure "hemp" would not interfere with their monopoly in the paper mill industry. Can anyone verify or refute this? Regadrs, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 06:44:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FDhn4L022923; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:43:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FDhlpx022877; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:43:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:43:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <440397$elkshj mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,292,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="492466739:sNHT17477580" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Home on LeGrange Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 9:43:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8zMGD.A.TlF.S271CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: thomas malloy ... > Having witnessed first hand the deleterious effects of > mind altering drugs, I understand why society felt > compelled to ban them. OTOH, the effects of prohibition > have been at least as bad. > > As for Al Queda's nukes, that's our petro dollars at work. For once we are in basic agreement on a few topics. Small miracles can happen. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 06:44:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FDiDLP023237; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:44:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FDi12A023048; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:44:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:44:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:reply-to:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole:in-reply-to:importance; b=TP5TMEd4Ls6kVH1QVHJr9/U3Q2LWbx4xwlTkax+x1Ae0KHHHjb4WXLtgjUfHkPp9Abz0+uTK3uKa7HEBwkDEm9Qu2nd5l3BDHe9vT2S9y7b+r4plCIUuYmZkbXOeOOTJdgfIu2aSGc/jgM+ZKBGz1neM6jzvqryUtr0Se+VedKU= Reply-To: From: "Jim Dickenson" To: Subject: RE: EUREKA: ortho-para Casimir pumping !! Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:43:35 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c58943$33984b00$2a05890a wtwi01ntw012> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C58921.AC8831A0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 In-Reply-To: <00c201c5888f$f37d6770$6401a8c0 NuDell> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C58921.AC8831A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jones - This is very interesting ... it looks like the formulae did not come through - perhaps it's just my outlook email client - but is it possible to put them in a word doc and attach it or as tty text (the old way :) Thanks, Jim D. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:20 PM To: vortex Cc: ah-gen yahoogroups.com Subject: EUREKA: ortho-para Casimir pumping !! A EUREKA moment (hopefully).... Don't know if the html 'formula' and 'graph' below will copy or not to your email. Unless you have html on your email program, you may not be able to see it (or my program may not even send it) - so here is the executive summary: Notice that the ~300 K temperature is a thermodynamic balance transition state for the ortho-para hydrogen distribution at the high end ! Now notice also that the MAHG is kept at the 300 K temperature !! NOT coincidental... just JLN being very *diligent* in finding the best parameters, and very lucky, since he was apparently going into this blind (as far as the correct theory) ! i.e when the MAHG system is kept at a thermodynamic balance point and then "tickled" with brief pulses, it is allowed to "pump" the Casimir force (beta-aether) energy, and at this high-rate/molecule (GHz) then you have your OU coming from a Casimir PV = nRT effect - which is a lot less controversial then many of the ideas that we have been playing with. The dimensions are there, the resonance point is there (close anyway), the thermodynamic balance point is there - am I missing anything? I am still trying to get a handle on the exact numbers, but as you can see the formula is not exactly a cake-walk... more like and egg-walk. Preliminary indications from other indicia are that this explanation is RIGHT-ON the money for the exact OU level which is seen here (given the known Casimir input at the Forster radius and the lesser-know *inversion temperature* which is the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands - for H2 it is 205 K. it is all fitting together very nicely for an hour of work! but some of the assumptions may not hold up, we will see) But anyway: a possible Eureka moment. I think we are getting somewhere today towards a bit more exact understanding of the dynamics, thanks to Frank and Fred and the other inputs on this. This is the real value of an open source project, and if we can get some confidence in the actual experimental numbers, then this device is looking a lot like Puthoff's long-sought-after Casimir "zitterbewegung" thermodynamic heat pump! ... and we should probably drop the "atomic" from the name and put in "Casimir," or "beta-aether" if this explanation holds up under scrutiny. Some simplified info: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Ortho-ParaHydrogen.html More detail from, paraphrased below: http://www.hydropole.ch/Hydropole/Intro/Hydrogen.htm Quantum mechanics requires that the wave function of a molecule must be antisymmetric with respect to the interchange of the space coordinates of two fermions (spin = 1/2), and symmetric for the interchange of bosons (spin = 1). Thus the wave function of a H2 molecule should be antisymmetric on interchange of two protons. There are a total of (2I+1) 2 combinations of nuclear spin states for two identical nuclei of spin I, of which (2I+1)(I+1) states are symmetric and (2I+1)I are antisymmetric with respect to the interchange of the nuclei. Consequently there are two kinds of hydrogen molecules in the singlet state, namely, ortho-hydrogen (symmetric, with parallel nuclear spins ­­) and para-hydrogen (antisymmetric, with antiparallel nuclear spins). There is a small energy "gap" between the two, indicative of the entropy. Energies and wave functions of rotational states (J) of a para-hydrogen and an ortho-hydrogen molecule. The total nuclear spin I is 0 or 1, respectively and the rotational quantum number is 0, 1, 2... [7] The population ratio of ortho-hydrogen to para-hydrogen in thermal equilibrium is given by this formula: At low temperature p-H2 can be present in a virtually pure state. The conversion of o-H2 is exothermic and a function of temperature as seen below. Getting into the correct temperature range must assume some extreme damping in order to effectively lower the temperature, but this is too coincidental not to be the case: When hydrogen is cooled from room temperature (300 K) towards the normal boiling point (nbp = 21.2K) the ortho hydrogen converts from an equilibrium concentration of 75% at RT down to 50% at 77K, which is never reached in this tube, of course. But there is still a few percentage points of change and a very high collision rate. However, this idea strongly indicates that the delta-T cannot be greatly enhanced, and even if the device would benefit greatly from lower cryogenic wall temperature - that would be counter productive as far as net energy extraction - therefore there is the good-new/ bad-news scenario of this being probably a **real** OU effect, due to Casimir, but one in which it the best use for it is likely going to be for space heating with only a few degrees of spread - unless - that is, a Sterling-type thermoacoustic converter can be added. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C58921.AC8831A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi=20 Jones -
     
    This=20 is very interesting ... it looks like the formulae did not come through = -=20 perhaps it's just my outlook email client - but is it possible to put = them in a=20 word doc and attach it or as tty text (the old way = :)
     
    Thanks,
     
    Jim=20 D.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jones Beene=20 [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
    Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 = 12:20=20 PM
    To: vortex
    Cc:=20 ah-gen yahoogroups.com
    Subject: EUREKA: ortho-para Casimir = pumping=20 !!

    A EUREKA moment = (hopefully)....

    Don't know=20 if the html 'formula' and 'graph' below will copy or not to your = email. Unless=20 you have html on your email program, you may not be able to see it (or = my=20 program may not even send it) - so here is the executive=20 summary:

    Notice that the ~300 K temperature is a thermodynamic = balance=20 transition state for the ortho-para hydrogen distribution at the high = end=20 !

    Now notice also that the MAHG is kept at the 300 K = temperature=20 !!

    NOT coincidental... just JLN being very *diligent* in = finding the=20 best parameters, and very lucky, since he was apparently going into = this blind=20 (as far as the correct theory) !

    i.e when the MAHG system is = kept at a=20 thermodynamic balance point and then "tickled" with brief pulses, it = is=20 allowed to "pump" the Casimir force (beta-aether) energy, and at this=20 high-rate/molecule (GHz) then you have your OU coming from a Casimir = PV =3D nRT=20 effect - which is a lot less controversial then many of the ideas that = we have=20 been playing with. The dimensions are there, the resonance point is = there=20 (close anyway), the thermodynamic balance point is there - am I = missing=20 anything?

    I am still trying to get a handle on the exact = numbers, but=20 as you can see the formula is not exactly a cake-walk... more like and = egg-walk.

    Preliminary indications from other indicia are that = this=20 explanation is RIGHT-ON the money for the exact OU level which is seen = here=20 (given the known Casimir input at the Forster radius and the = lesser-know=20 *inversion temperature* which is the 'normal' effect of cooling when a = gas=20 expands - for H2 it is 205 K. it is all fitting together very nicely = for an=20 hour of work! but some of the assumptions may not hold up, we will=20 see)

    But anyway: a possible Eureka moment. I think we are = getting=20 somewhere today towards a bit more exact understanding of the = dynamics, thanks=20 to Frank and Fred and the other inputs on this. This is the real value = of an=20 open source project, and if we can get some confidence in the actual=20 experimental numbers, then this device is looking a lot like Puthoff's = long-sought-after Casimir "zitterbewegung" thermodynamic heat = pump!  ...=20 and we should probably drop the "atomic" from the name and put in = "Casimir,"=20 or "beta-aether" if this explanation holds up under = scrutiny.

    Some=20 simplified info:
    = http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Ortho-ParaHydrogen.html

    More detail from, paraphrased below:
    http://www.= hydropole.ch/Hydropole/Intro/Hydrogen.htm

    Quantum mechanics requires that the wave function of a = molecule must=20 be antisymmetric with respect to the interchange of the space = coordinates of=20 two fermions (spin =3D 1/2), and symmetric for the interchange of = bosons (spin =3D=20 1).

    Thus the wave function of a H2 molecule should be = antisymmetric on=20 interchange of two protons. There are a total of (2I+1) 2 combinations = of=20 nuclear spin states for two identical nuclei of spin I, of which = (2I+1)(I+1)=20 states are symmetric and (2I+1)I are antisymmetric with respect to the = interchange of the nuclei.

    Consequently there are two kinds of = hydrogen molecules in the singlet state, namely, ortho-hydrogen = (symmetric,=20 with parallel nuclear spins ­­) and para-hydrogen = (antisymmetric, with=20 antiparallel nuclear spins). There is a small energy "gap" between the = two,=20 indicative of the entropy.

    Energies and wave functions of = rotational=20 states (J) of a para-hydrogen and an ortho-hydrogen molecule. The = total=20 nuclear spin I is 0 or 1, respectively and the rotational quantum = number is 0,=20 1, 2... [7] The population ratio of ortho-hydrogen to para-hydrogen in = thermal=20 equilibrium is given by this formula:

     
    At low = temperature p-H2=20 can be present in a virtually pure state. The conversion of o-H2 is = exothermic=20 and a function of temperature as seen below. Getting into the correct=20 temperature range must assume some extreme damping in order to = effectively=20 lower the temperature, but this is too coincidental not to be the=20 case:


    When hydrogen is cooled from room temperature (300 K) = towards=20 the normal boiling point (nbp =3D 21.2K) the ortho hydrogen converts = from an=20 equilibrium concentration of 75% at RT down to 50% at 77K, which is = never=20 reached in this tube, of course. But there is still a few percentage = points of=20 change and a very high collision rate.

    However, this idea = strongly=20 indicates that the delta-T cannot be greatly enhanced, and even if the = device=20 would benefit greatly from lower cryogenic wall temperature - that = would be=20 counter productive as far as net energy extraction  - therefore = there is=20 the good-new/ bad-news scenario of this being probably a **real** OU = effect,=20 due to Casimir, but one in which it the best use for it is likely = going to be=20 for space heating with only a few degrees of spread - unless - that = is, a=20 Sterling-type thermoacoustic converter can be=20 added.

    Jones
    ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C58921.AC8831A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 08:34:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FFXvuU016174; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:34:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FFXtCI016134; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:33:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:33:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008901c58952$8b997220$0101a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: References: <20050713172253.UAHC23762.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:33:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I had to query that one myself Terry - Its 1 bar or Athmosphere - Rgds Noel whitney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:22 PM Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids >> From: "John Harris" > >> Have a look at >> http://www.cumminswestport.com/ >> although they only list Hythane (hydrogen enriched natural gas) in their >> alternative fuels for hydrogen, rumour has it that they are hydrogen >> ready >> and this is certainly their aim, unlike some other promises on the net >> they >> are available off the shelf . >> Biggest engine is 280HP 8.3Ltr. > > I wonder if it is derated when running H2 only. I'll check the web page. > > Thanks! > > BTW, this company makes modular electrolysers with output up to 60 Nm^3/hr > (I assume 'N' means 'normal' or 1 atm. pressure): > > http://www.stuartenergy.com/ > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 09:06:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FG5ang028742; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:05:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FG5Yf5028727; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:05:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:05:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050715114643.039739b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:04:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Allergies are apparently caused by too much cleanliness In-Reply-To: <000c01c58936$6f3e2470$21027841 xptower> References: <000c01c58936$6f3e2470$21027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >Enter now the " allergy " type drugs. Few had allergies three generations >ago. Now it is common for a test at the doctors to show that of 100 base >allergens, a person may be allergic to more than 50. Hmmm! That is a very interesting development. The latest research indicates that the increase in allergies in children is caused by our environment becoming *too clean*. Research in Switzerland demonstrated this. Children in rural areas who are exposed from a very young age to dogs, cats, cattle and other farm animals, plus grasses, manure and so on, developed few if any allergies. Children from urban environments who are protected from these things are allergic to them. I believe the researchers were expecting exactly the opposite results. The first medical records of allergies in Europe are from the 18th and early 19th century, among the children of the nobility. They were the first people to live in relatively clean environments, not constantly exposed to vermin, animal hair, pollen and so on. This was when the modern notion of hygiene was developing among the wealthy classes, and when it became fashionable among them to take regular baths, wear clean cloths, and avoid exposure to filth. (Other social classes did not begin to take regular baths until the earth to mid-20th century.) It was about this time that people began to think that "cleanliness is next to godliness." This trend predated Pasteur's discovery of the germ theory by several decades. Pasteur's theory merely confirmed what wealthy people had suspected for a generation. In other words, allergy appears to be a disease of the rich. It is caused by excessive cleanliness -- too much of a good thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 09:33:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FGXINS008058; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:33:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FGXF9I008015; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:33:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:33:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050715093036.028bc8f0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:31:42 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Pharmaceuticals In-Reply-To: <000c01c58936$6f3e2470$21027841 xptower> References: <000c01c58936$6f3e2470$21027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >What we need is a scantily clad girl waering a Harley shirt draped across >the hood of a CF drag racer. Ya gotta sell the sizzles if ya wanta make >a buck!! > >Richard Hey Richard, if you can find the CF drag racer, I'll get the girl (and the shirt too!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 09:42:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FGfKPx011456; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:41:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FGfI6s011444; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:41:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:41:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHm/D8uNV7uQL2IOwUAwUssnQm9+PWwpdZw== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.36.223] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:39:39 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Allergies are apparently caused by too much cleanliness X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050715.094013.26759.1265 webmail30.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 1:1:230694401 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.170|webmail30.nyc.untd.com|outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Jed- I was raised on the farm-with cattle- pigs-chickens-dogs and cats. I have all kinds of Allergies.- George S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 09:47:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FGkYP3013888; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:46:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FGkWCW013871; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:46:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:46:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004b01c5895f$d25c7420$b137ebdc default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <20050715.094013.26759.1265 webmail30.nyc.untd.com> Subject: Re: Allergies are apparently caused by too much cleanliness Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:08:27 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The exception that proves the rule :-) JohnH ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:39 AM Subject: Re: Allergies are apparently caused by too much cleanliness > > To Jed- I was raised on the farm-with cattle- pigs-chickens-dogs and > cats. I have all kinds of Allergies.- George S. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 09:57:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FGuqR7017938; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:56:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FGulvc017896; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:56:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:56:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050715124802.0396b9a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:56:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Allergies are apparently caused by too much cleanliness In-Reply-To: <20050715.094013.26759.1265 webmail30.nyc.untd.com> References: <20050715.094013.26759.1265 webmail30.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9PouBC.A.dXE.Mr-1CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: gesrebspar juno.com wrote: >To Jed- I was raised on the farm-with cattle- pigs-chickens-dogs and > cats. I have all kinds of Allergies.- George S. The Swiss study did find some rural children with allergies. I was not suggesting there is perfect correlation and -- therefore -- obvious causality. If the link had been that clear, it would have been discovered long ago. Clearly, there is also a large genetic factor. My brother and I grew up in identical circumstances, but he is allergic to a wide variety of things, whereas as far as I know, I have no allergies even when exposed to vast quantities of animal hair, ragweed, dust, and so on. Regarding the 18th and 19th century results, poor people seldom went to doctors back then, so even if they had allergies the medical profession would not have noticed. Also I think doctors are more likely to write up, report, and diligently research diseases that strike rich patients than poor ones. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 10:50:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FHnPXn011765; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:49:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FHnMGr011745; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:49:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:49:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: I Sing the Sun Electric - Part II Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:49:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050715174909.ISCN4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Unlike me, this guy is no crackpot and others seem to be taking him seriously: http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/index.html? Excerpting from: http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/model.htm? "The reason for this is simple. The SOHO, TRACE and YOHKOH satellites demonstrate that the sun is not simply a giant ball of gas as Galileo believed based on his limited observations through a common telescope. The sun has a solid, electrically conductive surface composed of iron ferrites beneath the liquid-like plasma layer of the photosphere. It has a solid and electrically conductive surface that is covered by a series of plasma layers, starting with calcium, silicon, neon, helium and finally a layer hydrogen that ultimately ignites in the corona. This solid surface model of the sun can and does explain the behaviors of our own sun quite elegantly and offers us the best hope of deciphering the stone (in this case iron ferrite) tablet that will help us unlock the mysteries of our universe. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 11:37:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FIaiv8006059; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:36:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FIaan4005949; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:36:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:36:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=BWSiCBz6TUzX2NqQ2q8saIS7KuALgvoRXEGpR0K4TCZK2JLvfciQ3L1tDFiaG8EA; Message-ID: <410-220057515173649920 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Allergies are apparently caused by too much cleanliness Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:36:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408d2b8c7e2ef09e0c4f9b96e89aec9339350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.110 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I grew up on a farm in the 30 and 40s with exposure similar to what George S. describes, without any noticeable allergies. Doctor visits were about twice in 17 years (once with pneumonia, and once with a broken finger). The food supply wasn't "adulterated" with preservatives, MSG and pesticides either. City life has changed all of that. Maybe I should go broke and get dirty? :-) Frederick Jed Rothwell wrote: > > gesrebspar juno.com wrote: > > >To Jed- I was raised on the farm-with cattle- pigs-chickens-dogs and > > cats. I have all kinds of Allergies.- George S. > > The Swiss study did find some rural children with allergies. I was not > suggesting there is perfect correlation and -- therefore -- obvious > causality. If the link had been that clear, it would have been discovered > long ago. > > Clearly, there is also a large genetic factor. My brother and I grew up in > identical circumstances, but he is allergic to a wide variety of things, > whereas as far as I know, I have no allergies even when exposed to vast > quantities of animal hair, ragweed, dust, and so on. > > Regarding the 18th and 19th century results, poor people seldom went to > doctors back then, so even if they had allergies the medical profession > would not have noticed. Also I think doctors are more likely to write up, > report, and diligently research diseases that strike rich patients than > poor ones. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 11:48:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FIlPfw011005; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:47:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FIlH3W010922; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:47:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:47:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050715184659.009b1f30 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:46:59 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: I Sing the Sun Electric - Part II Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6FIl6XN010777 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:49 pm 15/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >Unlike me, this guy is no crackpot and others seem to be taking him seriously: > >http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/index.html? > >Excerpting from: > >http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/model.htm? > >"The reason for this is simple. The SOHO, TRACE and YOHKOH satellites demonstrate that the sun is not simply a giant ball of gas as Galileo believed based on his limited observations through a common telescope. The sun has a solid, electrically conductive surface composed of iron ferrites beneath the liquid-like plasma layer of the photosphere. It has a solid and electrically conductive surface that is covered by a series of plasma layers, starting with calcium, silicon, neon, helium and finally a layer hydrogen that ultimately ignites in the corona. This solid surface model of the sun can and does explain the behaviors of our own sun quite elegantly and offers us the best hope of deciphering the stone (in this case iron ferrite) tablet that will help us unlock the mysteries of our universe. " > > Mmm...The pictures reminded me of the "O Seculo" account of the solar phenomena that was seen in Portugal on October 13, 1917 ================================================= http://religion-cults.com/fatima/sun.htm Here are briefly the facts; starting from the day after the events, by a reporter who cannotpossibly be accused of partiality in this matter and for a good reason! We refer to Avelino deAlmeida, the chief editor of "O Seculo," the large "liberal" anticlerical and masonic daily ofLisbon. He writes, "From the road, where the carriages were crowded together and where hundreds of persons hadstayed for want of sufficient courage to advance across the muddy ground, we saw the hugecrowd turn towards the sun which appeared at its zenith, clear of the clouds. It resembled a flatplate of silver, and it was possible to stare at it without the least discomfort. It did not burn theeyes. It did not blind. We would say that it produced an eclipse. Then a tremendous cry rang out,and the crowd nearest us were heard to shout: "Miracle! Miracle!...Marvel!...Marvel!" Before thedazzled eyes of the people, whose attitude transported us to biblical times, and who,dumb-founded, heads uncovered, contemplated the blue of the sky, the sun trembled, it madestrange and abrupt movements, outside of all cosmic laws, "the sun danced", accordingto the typical expression of the peasants...(2)" Attacked violently by all the anticlerical press, Avelino de Almeida renewed his testimony,fifteen days later, in his review, l'"Ilustra‡ao Portuguesa". This time he illustrated his accountwith a dozen photographs of the huge ecstatic crowd, and repeated as a refrain throughout hisarticle: "I saw...I saw... I saw." And he concluded fortuitously: "Miracle, as the people shouted?Natural phenomenon, as the experts say? For the moment, that does not concern me, I am onlysaying what I saw... The rest is a matter for Science and the Church.(3) ================================================= Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 12:57:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FJuwJQ010376; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:57:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FJuuei010349; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:56:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:56:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42D814F4.1090805 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:56:36 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I Sing the Sun Electric - Part II References: <20050715174909.ISCN4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050715174909.ISCN4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4mNkRD.A.khC.HUB2CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Unlike me, this guy is no crackpot > He believes the sun is solid (of course, since he feels it has a solid surface), and less obviously, some of his comments seem to indicate he may believe the energy comes from fission: > One of the most basic processes of the sun is the electrical arc. The > sun's inner **fission** [emphasis added] reactions act as a battery, > releasing free protons and electrons, On the "model" page he mentions "fusion" only in the context of what he feels is the mistaken view that the sun is a big ball of gas (or plasma, rather). What's the melting point of ferrite, anyway? I thought it was about the same as iron, or a few thousand degrees K. It seems like the photosphere, at about the same temp, would give any solid iron surface underneath it a pretty rough time. He's certainly far, far off the beaten path of conventional cosmology. And I really don't understand where the sun's energy is coming from in his view of things (in the conventional model, of course, it's from fusion in and near the core, which leaks out at a great rate through a combination of convection and radiation). Does he really think it's a fission reactor? Hard to tell, from the pages I visited. > and others seem to be taking him seriously: > >http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/index.html? > >Excerpting from: > >http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/model.htm? > >"The reason for this is simple. The SOHO, TRACE and YOHKOH satellites demonstrate that the sun is not simply a giant ball of gas as Galileo believed based on his limited observations through a common telescope. The sun has a solid, electrically conductive surface composed of iron ferrites beneath the liquid-like plasma layer of the photosphere. It has a solid and electrically conductive surface that is covered by a series of plasma layers, starting with calcium, silicon, neon, helium and finally a layer hydrogen that ultimately ignites in the corona. This solid surface model of the sun can and does explain the behaviors of our own sun quite elegantly and offers us the best hope of deciphering the stone (in this case iron ferrite) tablet that will help us unlock the mysteries of our universe. " > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 13:46:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FKkHMl001125; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:46:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FKkAZs001058; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:46:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:46:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: I Sing the Sun Electric - Part II Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:45:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050715204553.MNVD4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > On the "model" page he mentions "fusion" only in the context of what he > feels is the mistaken view that the sun is a big ball of gas (or plasma, > rather). If you download his paper you see that he believes the inner core fuses hydrogen. I think he misspoke (mistyped) when he said 'fission'. Lots of pretty piccy's, tho! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 14:07:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FL6n9m009503; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:06:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FL6l6u009485; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:06:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:06:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050715165857.0397e8d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:06:27 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Thought for the day from Bertrand Russell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [It is a little difficult to say whether this is optimistic or pessimistic. But in any case I think it does represent a point of view shared by most scientists, and I wish they would stand up for these ideals more often, even though it has become unfashionable. - JR] Neither misery nor folly seems to me any part of the inevitable lot of man. And I am convinced that intelligence, patience, and eloquence can, sooner or later, lead the human race out of its self-imposed tortures provided it does not exterminate itself meanwhile. On the basis of this belief, I have had always a certain degree of optimism, although, as I have grown older, the optimism has grown more sober and the happy issue more distant. But I remain completely incapable of agreeing with those who accept fatalistically the view that man is born to trouble. The causes of unhappiness in the past and in the present are not difficult to ascertain. There have been poverty, pestilence, and famine, which were due to man's inadequate mastery of nature. There have been wars, oppressions and tortures which have been due to men's hostility to their fellow men. And there have been morbid miseries fostered by gloomy creeds, which have led men into profound inner discords that made all outward prosperity of no avail. All these are unnecessary. In regard to all of them, means are known by which they can be overcome. In the modern world, if communities are unhappy, it is because they choose to be so. Or to speak more precisely, because they have ignorances, habits, beliefs, and passions, which are dearer to them than happiness or even life. I find many men in our dangerous age who seem to be in love with misery and death, and who grow angry when hopes are suggested to them. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 14:30:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FLTtmk020296; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:30:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FLTrdZ020268; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:29:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:29:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42D82AC0.4030404 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:36 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I Sing the Sun Electric - Part II References: <20050715204553.MNVD4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050715204553.MNVD4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6N-ajD.A.l8E.QrC2CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> >> > > > >>On the "model" page he mentions "fusion" only in the context of what he >>feels is the mistaken view that the sun is a big ball of gas (or plasma, >>rather). >> >> > >If you download his paper you see that he believes the inner core fuses hydrogen. I think he misspoke (mistyped) when he said 'fission'. > >Lots of pretty piccy's, tho! > > That's for sure! And it's a cool idea, even if I don't quite buy it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 16:25:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6FNOmf5001035; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:24:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6FNOkuL001018; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:24:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:24:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220057515232510650 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday July 15, 2005 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:25:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8e48c6ab3114bee2ec33fb1f95bbcde8ccb31c92fc090f552350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.73.97 Resent-Message-ID: <4rJ2vB.A.2P.-WE2CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New Date: 7/15/2005 1:32:18 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday July 15, 2005 WHAT’S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 15 Jul 05 Washington, DC 1. EVOLUTION: SCHOENBORN’S FOLLY LINKED TO DISCOVERY INSTITUTE. As scientists battled efforts by Christian fundamentalists to counter the teaching of evolution, we took comfort in the more enlightened position of the Catholic Church. But as WN reported last week, a powerful cardinal wrote in the July 7 New York Times that evolution may be incompatible with the Catholic faith. His argument sounded like the the Discovery Institute’s intelligent design nonsense. It was. The NYT revealed two days later that Schoenborn’s essay had been written at the urging of Mark Ryland, vice president of the Discovery Institute, and submitted to the Times by the Discovery Institute’s public relations firm. 2. APPEAL TO THE POPE: WAR LOOMS BETWEEN SCIENCE AND RELIGION. Schoenborn’s op-ed was meant to refute a May 17 NYT op-ed by Larry Krauss, then chair of physics at Case Western Reserve, which said the Catholic Church “has no problem with the notion of evolution.” Krauss is not Catholic, but yesterday he was joined in a letter to Pope Benedict XVI by two well-known Catholic biologists: Francisco Ayala at UC Irvine and Ken Miller at Brown. They urge the Pope not to reestablish the divide that once existed between the scientific method and religious belief. 3. GOD’S HAND: CATHOLICS DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IN ADAM AND EVE. On Tuesday, at the National Press Club in Washington, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick told reporters that Catholics can believe in evolution – as long as it’s understood to have been guided by “the hand of God” rather than chance. The Church cannot accept the belief that “this is all an accident,” he said. 4. HARRY POTTER: AS IF CHARLES DARWIN WASN’T ENOUGH OF A PROBLEM. As Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, hits book stores, we learn that Pope Benedict XVI is not a fan. “Those are subtle seductions that deeply distort Christianity in the soul,” he wrote two years ago. Catechism number 2117: “All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion.” You want to take magic out of kids books? Why not ban Cinderella? Scientists look at it differently: Magic and sorcery don’t work. 5. PRAYER: AND WHILE WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT DON’T WORK. The shuttle is still on the ground, the Kansas City Royals are 28 games behind, cold fusion is a memory, missile defense isn’t even being tested, and intercessory prayer has no effect according to researchers at Duke reporting in Lancet. Didn’t we already know that http://www.bobpark.org/WN04/wn120304.html? Prayer is just one of the things the Samueli Institute supports that don’t work. The Institute is headed by Wayne Jonas, a genuine authority on the subject of things that don’t work. Former head of the NIH Office of Alternative Medicine, Jonas authored Healing with Homeopathy http://www.bobpark.org/WN96/wn080296.html. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 15 22:20:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6G5KL6v008016; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:20:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6G5KJvU008000; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:20:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:20:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050715221357.028df7f0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:18:48 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Printed in Khaleej Times, United Arab Emirates, 6 July 2005 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_431825421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_431825421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hot fusion a mirage! A FEW corrections to your editorial are in order. First, this is not the=20 =91first step=92. This is one of the many steps in an ongoing commercial=20 research endeavor. Since 1951, dozens of government and academic laboratories around the world= =20 have built experimental tokamak reactors and failed. None has ever produced= =20 more energy than they consume; nor are these units ever expected to. All hope for previous, hot fusion reactors has been abandoned, and all bets= =20 are now on the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, known as=20 ITER. Second, experimentally, it has never, ever, been shown =93possible to= harness=20 fusion power=94 through hot fusion. Hot fusion has never =91worked=92= because it=20 has never generated more energy than it consumes. I would not call this=20 generated energy. The costs and complexities of hot fusion have been too=20 complex for any one nation to solve. Thus, the inspiration for ITER. With the first commercial hot fusion reactor expected mid-century, this=20 science experiment will have run over 100 years before providing energy to= =20 this energy-starved earth, that is, if it ever works. Critics have=20 ridiculed that =93hot fusion is just 20 years away, and it always will be.= =94=20 Now, the first commercial hot fusion reactor is expected in 2050. Certainly, the hot fusion field deserves a chance, as should any good=20 science research in the public interest. But 100 years? ITER is expected to= =20 cost a total of 10 billion euros, including operating expenses over 35=20 years. Add this to the $16 billion the United States taxpayers have already= =20 spent, and you=92ve got a hefty price-tag. =AD Steve Krivit, Los Angeles, USA --=====================_431825421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hot fusion a mirage!

    A FEW corrections to your editorial are in order. First, this is not the =91first step=92. This is one of the many steps in an ongoing commercial research endeavor.

    Since 1951, dozens of government and academic laboratories around the world have built experimental tokamak reactors and failed. None has ever produced more energy than they consume; nor are these units ever expected to.

    All hope for previous, hot fusion reactors has been abandoned, and all bets are now on the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, known as ITER.

    Second, experimentally, it has never, ever, been shown =93possible to harness fusion power=94 through hot fusion. Hot fusion has never =91worked= =92 because it has never generated more energy than it consumes. I would not call this generated energy. The costs and complexities of hot fusion have been too complex for any one nation to solve. Thus, the inspiration for ITER.

    With the first commercial hot fusion reactor expected mid-century, this science experiment will have run over 100 years before providing energy to this energy-starved earth, that is, if it ever works. Critics have ridiculed that =93hot fusion is just 20 years away, and it always will be.= =94 Now, the first commercial hot fusion reactor is expected in 2050.

    Certainly, the hot fusion field deserves a chance, as should any good science research in the public interest. But 100 years? ITER is expected to cost a total of 10 billion euros, including operating expenses over 35 years. Add this to the $16 billion the United States taxpayers have already spent, and you=92ve got a hefty price-tag.
    =AD Steve Krivit, Los Angeles, USA

    --=====================_431825421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 16 09:43:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6GGhGae021241; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:43:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6GGh3xk021181; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:43:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:43:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018501c58a25$1f23a560$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: PowerPedia: Cold fusion Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:40:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0182_01C58A03.97AB7B60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0182_01C58A03.97AB7B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been working on a cold fusion entry at PowerPedia for a few = months. Someone recently enhanced it by redesigning it (PowerPedia is = an open-source website, anyone can alter it). Some Vortexians might = find the cold fusion entry interesting, and might determine ways to = enhance it as well. I have recently been working on a section called = Ongoing Developments, which focuses on cold fusion commercial = development efforts. If you can add to this section, that would be = appreciated. It is a hopeful sign for the field of cold fusion that it = is now moving into tentative commercial development stages. To access the PowerPedia cold fusion entry at, see: = http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:Cold_fusion ------=_NextPart_000_0182_01C58A03.97AB7B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I have been working on a cold fusion entry at PowerPedia for a few=20 months.  Someone recently enhanced it by redesigning it (PowerPedia = is an=20 open-source website, anyone can alter it).  Some Vortexians=20 might find the cold fusion entry interesting, and might = determine=20 ways to enhance it as well.  I have recently been working on a = section=20 called Ongoing Developments, which focuses on cold fusion = commercial=20 development efforts.  If you can add to this section, that would be = appreciated.  It is a hopeful sign for the field of cold fusion=20 that it is now moving into tentative commercial development=20 stages.
     
    To access the PowerPedia cold fusion entry at, see:  = http://peswi= ki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:Cold_fusion
    ------=_NextPart_000_0182_01C58A03.97AB7B60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 16 15:06:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6GM5i7r007469; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:05:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6GM5fac007457; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:05:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:05:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00df01c58a4d$a04c5880$5b45ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050715.094013.26759.1265 webmail30.nyc.untd.com> <004b01c5895f$d25c7420$b137ebdc@default> Subject: Re: Allergies are apparently caused by too much cleanliness Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:09:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "John Harris" Subject: Re: Allergies are apparently caused by too much cleanliness > The exception that proves the rule :-) > JohnH Widely misunderstoon use of the word "proves". To prove is to test, as a "proving ground" for military vehicles. When something passes an agreed test, it is said to be "proven". So the exception "tests" the rule; it does not validate or confirm the rule. Allergies are complex, and some consider it an over-reactionof the immune system to the allergen, producing an excess of hiustamine, which can be an irritant. My MD nutritionist emphasized that if the adrenals are functioning well, and other things are in balance, a body should not exhibit a lot of allergies -- but this, too is mediated by the genetic makeup of an individual. If a person is isolated during the development of the immune system, when it is learning what is 'self' and to defend against 'non-self' then the adult may be vulnerable to disease and allergens. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 16 19:58:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6H2vtcO017244; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:58:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6H2vrGl017222; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c58a7b$4bd13720$a1037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The summer of MAHG Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:57:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C58A51.626EA690" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <5f5GcC.A.9ME.xkc2CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C58A51.626EA690 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C58A51.626EA690" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C58A51.626EA690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Jones wrote.. >There are three 'coincidences' with this device which seem to make=20 >it different. >Therefore, even though the device was=20 >built to accomplish one goal, it appears closer to being the=20 >serendipitous discovery of an interlocking set of operating=20 >parameters - which accomplish an even grander goal than it was=20 >originally intended to do. I am amazed at the insight displayed by this writing. It is difficult to = comment one a single point without including another. I believe the most important message delivered is the possibility that = it may be the beginning of a door opening to... as Jones stated.. an even grander goal. Back when the Manhatten project was shifted into high gear it seemed an = excitement toward discovery permeated science. What would it take to energize such a modern day excitement ? Interesting op-ed piece in Sunday's paper re: Three good reasons why $ = 60 oil should worry us ( writer Paul Roberts) Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C58A51.626EA690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
     
    Jones wrote..
     
    >There are three 'coincidences' with this device which seem to = make=20
    >it different.
     
    >Therefore, even though the device was
    >built to = accomplish one=20 goal, it appears closer to being the
    >serendipitous discovery of = an=20 interlocking set of operating
    >parameters - which accomplish an = even=20 grander goal than it was
    >originally intended to do.
     
    I am amazed at the insight displayed by this writing. It is = difficult to=20 comment one a single point without including another.
    I believe the most important message delivered is the possibility = that it=20 may be the beginning of a door opening to...
    as Jones stated.. an even grander goal.
    Back when the Manhatten project was shifted into high gear it = seemed an=20 excitement toward discovery permeated science.
     
    What would it take to energize such a modern day excitement ?
     
    Interesting op-ed piece in Sunday's paper   re: Three = good=20 reasons why $ 60 oil should worry us ( writer Paul Roberts)
     
    Richard

     

    ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C58A51.626EA690-- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C58A51.626EA690 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001401c58a7b$4b186e70$a1037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C58A51.626EA690-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 07:28:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HERswY011412; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:28:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HERjhN011338; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:27:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:27:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DA6B6E.8040505 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:30:06 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The summer of MAHG References: <036401c58a55$b852bb10$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <036401c58a55$b852bb10$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Earth Tech hasn't posted a new experiment in over 18 months. The last we heard of them Scott Little was testing a CF cell demonstrated in Boston's ICCF. Jed posted that Little was cautiously optimistic that he might be observing ou; but, we haven't heard anything since. Their silence might mean that they have found what they have been seeking. It might also mean that they are discouraged. I have taken the liberty of forwarding this post to Scott and Hal along with Jean-Louis URL on the subject and a brief explanation. While I am sure that they frequent Naudin's site, they might automaticly dismiss the results considering the MEG fiasco and the fact that the cell is certainly not working ou by atomic recombination of hydrogen. Earth Tech has everything in house to test Moller/Casmir Hydrogen Oscillation Tube (MC HOT). Jones Beene wrote: > With the normal "caveat" that IF the reported JLN results are > reliable... then....what does it all mean? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 07:49:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HEmuJ5020163; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:49:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HEmo2F020123; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:48:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:48:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c58ade$9c5f20e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Star-power: the Sound and the Fury Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:48:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C58AA3.EF0D0F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C58AA3.EF0D0F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Generating electricity is all about changing one source of energy into = another.=20 Hmmm...That sounds about right to me, but where can you take it from = there? To the stars? Researchers from Los Alamos National Laboratory and = Northrop Grumman Space Technology have built a compact generator that = converts heat to electricity with the relatively high efficiency of 18 = percent using thermoacoustics. And that maybe only the starting point.=20 The heat can come from an onboard mirror - concentrating solar energy, = or from radio-isotopes, or perhaps... sometime in the near future.... = from a new ZPE source ;-)=20 The generator is simple, making it potentially long-lived and easy to = maintain. You can see from the photo that the size-factor is now much = more compact than before - which was one of the problems with earlier = thermoacoustic converters.=20 http://www.trnmag.com/Photos/2004/100604/Sound%20makes%20electricity%20fo= r%20space%20Image.html For space use, this is not as efficient as the latest 3-layer nano-GAs- = cells, but it is not and either/or situation, is it? A typical commercial solar cell for use on Earth has an efficiency of = about 15% for the first few years, and it goes down from there - while = the first solar cells, built in the 1950s, had efficiencies of less than = 4% - indicating that there is a likely upside to thermoacoustics, even = starting out at a higher level. This (thermoacoustics) is a field that = is as much art as science. But we have always known that about sound, at = least according to audiophiles. Modern space solar cells, based on gallium arsenide and composed of 3 = sub-cells 'grown' one on top of the other, now allow the generation of = more than 12 kW of electric power on board large telecommunication = satellites. Higher cell efficiency of about 24% allows a more compact = solar array to be employed, but at a cost which is far too high for use = on earth - but giving a reduction in the mass of the satellite and the = cost of its launch.=20 But the thought just occurred - these two technologies: solar = semiconductor cells, and solar thermoacoustic cells, could possibly be = used synergistically on earth (or in space) - i.e. using the heat = rejected from the semiconductor cells to power the thermoacoustics. Let's see... using cheaper amorphous silicon (15 % eff) if would not be = the full 15% + 18%, when combined with thermoacoustics - in efficiency, = but it might exceed 30% which would make it much more competitive for = earth-bound power. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C58AA3.EF0D0F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Generating = electricity is all=20 about changing one source of energy into another.
     
    Hmmm...That sounds about right to me, = but where can=20 you take it from there?

    To the=20 stars?  Researchers from Los Alamos National Laboratory and = Northrop=20 Grumman Space Technology have built a compact generator that converts = heat to=20 electricity with the relatively high efficiency of 18 percent using=20 thermoacoustics. And that maybe only the starting point. =
     
    The heat can come from an onboard = mirror -=20 concentrating solar energy, or from radio-isotopes, or perhaps... = sometime in=20 the near future.... from a new ZPE source  ;-) 

    The = generator=20 is simple, making it potentially long-lived and easy to maintain. You = can see=20 from the photo that the size-factor is now much more compact than before = - which=20 was one of the problems with earlier thermoacoustic converters. =
     
    http://www.trnmag.com/Photos/2004/100604/Sound%20makes%20electri= city%20for%20space%20Image.html
     
    For space use, this is not as efficient = as the=20 latest 3-layer nano-GAs- cells, but it is not and either/or situation, = is=20 it?
     
    A typical commercial solar cell for use = on Earth=20 has an efficiency of about 15% for the first few years, and it goes down = from=20 there - while the first solar cells, built in the 1950s, had = efficiencies=20 of less than 4% - indicating that there is a likely upside to=20 thermoacoustics, even starting out at a higher level. This = (thermoacoustics) is=20 a field that is as much art as science. But we have always known that = about=20 sound, at least according to audiophiles.
     
    Modern space solar cells, based on = gallium arsenide=20 and composed of 3 sub-cells 'grown' one on top of the other, now allow = the=20 generation of more than 12 kW of electric power on board large = telecommunication=20 satellites. Higher cell efficiency of about 24% allows a more compact = solar=20 array to be employed, but at a cost which is far too high for use on = earth - but=20 giving a reduction in the mass of the satellite and the cost of its = launch.=20
     
    But the thought just occurred - these = two=20 technologies: solar semiconductor cells, and solar thermoacoustic cells, = could=20 possibly be used synergistically on earth (or in space) - i.e. using the = heat=20 rejected from the semiconductor cells to power the = thermoacoustics.
     
    Let's see... using cheaper amorphous = silicon (15 %=20 eff) if would not be the full 15% + 18%, when combined with = thermoacoustics=20 - in efficiency, but it might exceed 30% which would make it much = more=20 competitive for earth-bound power.
     
    Jones
     
     
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C58AA3.EF0D0F40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 07:57:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HEuTfP024468; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:56:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HEuOeG024423; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:56:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:56:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c58adf$a9481220$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <036401c58a55$b852bb10$6401a8c0 NuDell> <42DA6B6E.8040505@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: The summer of MAHG Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:56:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: T.B.: > Earth Tech has everything in house to test Moller/Casmir > Hydrogen Oscillation Tube (MC HOT). Hmmm.... MC_HOT .... I like it... but does it sound too much like a "rap" group ... the geriatric set calls it "rat music"... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 08:01:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HF0FHJ027361; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:00:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HF0EL5027329; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:00:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:00:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=RICMcv5XZbxeBpVtg5876F2D9hAR2ohMf/qVEqOf3HZw7buNIK+b4PeCyoAZdLyL; Message-ID: <410-22005701714030310 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:00:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a25a46c9708bb192df5e8320dd665e5c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.231 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Playing off the MAHG with 500 cm^3 76 Torr (0.1 ATM) pressure H2 heated to 5400 K with 100 watts the pressure should increase to 5400/300 = P2/80 = 1440 Torr = 1.9 ATM = 13.15 psig. A single piston "engine" with a 2.0 inch bore and 2.0 inch stroke ~ 100 cm^3 compressing the H2 gas to raise it's temperature to get hard ball collisions to force the atoms closer together so the Casimir force can aid against the repulsive coulomb force should result in about 20 watts (~ 0.015 horsepower) worth of ZPE ( Free Energy) that is released when the gas works against the piston on it's expansion travel. IOW. with the piston at the bottom of it's stroke, fill the chamber with H2 0.76 Torr and crank it over with a drill motor to get things started. The 51 pulses per second (5% duty cycle) that JLN cites corresponds to 3,000 RPM. A flywheel would help. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Playing off the MAHG with 500 cm^3 76 Torr (0.1 ATM) pressure H2 heated
    to 5400 K with 100 watts the pressure should increase to 5400/300 = P2/80
    = 1440 Torr = 1.9 ATM = 13.15 psig.
     
    A single piston "engine" with a 2.0 inch bore and 2.0 inch stroke ~ 100 cm^3
    compressing the H2  gas to raise it's temperature to get hard ball collisions
    to force the atoms closer together so the Casimir force can aid against the
    repulsive coulomb force should result in about 20 watts (~ 0.015 horsepower)
    worth of ZPE ( Free Energy) that is released when the gas works against the piston on
    it's expansion travel.
    IOW. with the piston at the bottom of it's stroke, fill the chamber with H2 0.76 Torr
    and crank it over with a drill motor to get things started. The 51 pulses per second
    (5% duty cycle) that JLN  cites corresponds to 3,000 RPM.
     
    A flywheel would help.
     
    Frederick
     
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 08:19:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HFIoZj002445; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:18:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HFInQA002423; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:18:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:18:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:17:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine In-reply-to: <410-22005701714030310 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_uRnLXdB6VwSo2njcpRVDlQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_uRnLXdB6VwSo2njcpRVDlQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Just wondering. Could it be that the casimir force is also at work in P/F "cold fusion" cells? The Pd matrix might work like an array of miniature pistons. Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Playing off the MAHG with 500 cm^3 76 Torr (0.1 ATM) pressure H2 heated to 5400 K with 100 watts the pressure should increase to 5400/300 = P2/80 = 1440 Torr = 1.9 ATM = 13.15 psig. A single piston "engine" with a 2.0 inch bore and 2.0 inch stroke ~ 100 cm^3 compressing the H2 gas to raise it's temperature to get hard ball collisions to force the atoms closer together so the Casimir force can aid against the repulsive coulomb force should result in about 20 watts (~ 0.015 horsepower) worth of ZPE ( Free Energy) that is released when the gas works against the piston on it's expansion travel. IOW. with the piston at the bottom of it's stroke, fill the chamber with H2 0.76 Torr and crank it over with a drill motor to get things started. The 51 pulses per second (5% duty cycle) that JLN cites corresponds to 3,000 RPM. A flywheel would help. Frederick --Boundary_(ID_uRnLXdB6VwSo2njcpRVDlQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine
    Just wondering.

    Could it be that the casimir force is also at work in
    P/F "cold fusion" cells?

    The Pd matrix might work like an array of miniature pistons.


    Harry





    Frederick Sparber wrote:


    Playing off the MAHG with 500 cm^3 76 Torr (0.1 ATM) pressure H2 heated
    to 5400 K with 100 watts the pressure should increase to 5400/300 = P2/80
    = 1440 Torr = 1.9 ATM = 13.15 psig.

    A single piston "engine" with a 2.0 inch bore and 2.0 inch stroke ~ 100 cm^3
    compressing the H2  gas to raise it's temperature to get hard ball collisions
    to force the atoms closer together so the Casimir force can aid against the
    repulsive coulomb force should result in about 20 watts (~ 0.015 horsepower)
    worth of ZPE ( Free Energy) that is released when the gas works against the piston on
    it's expansion travel.
    IOW. with the piston at the bottom of it's stroke, fill the chamber with H2 0.76 Torr
    and crank it over with a drill motor to get things started. The 51 pulses per second
    (5% duty cycle) that JLN  cites corresponds to 3,000 RPM.

    A flywheel would help.

    Frederick






    --Boundary_(ID_uRnLXdB6VwSo2njcpRVDlQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 08:30:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HFU7Pg006050; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:30:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HFU4b5006017; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:30:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:30:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:28:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_zStRhI6FbMigt0BroVDVGA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_zStRhI6FbMigt0BroVDVGA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Animation of an internal combustion engine: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine7.htm Harry --Boundary_(ID_zStRhI6FbMigt0BroVDVGA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine Animation of an internal combustion engine:
    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine7.htm

    Harry
    --Boundary_(ID_zStRhI6FbMigt0BroVDVGA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 09:00:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HFwcW8018329; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:58:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HFwXxK018279; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:58:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:58:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.50.50] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The summer of MAHG Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:58:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050717155817.ZVCG714.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Hmmm.... MC_HOT .... I like it... but does it sound too much like > a "rap" group > > ... the geriatric set calls it "rat music"... I wouldn't know since I was only this year old enough to join the AARP. I have a response from Little: At 09:05 AM 7/17/2005, Terry Blanton wrote: >You haven't posted much in the way of new experiments lately on your >earthtech.org site. I assume you remain in search of new energy >sources. If so, it may be worth your effort to replicate Jean-Louis >Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator: Hello Terry, Long time no write. I have taken a look at the latest JLN experiment. It is certainly intriguing but I see lots of room for his waterflow calorimetry to be completely at fault in his anomalous results. His temperature probes appear naively designed and everything is out in the open (un-insulated) exposed to room temperature fluctuations and ambient airflows. Particularly significant is the fact that he appears to get the greatest percentage o-u at the lowest overall power levels...where the delta-T in water temperatures is very small and thus more subject to artifacts. Don't get me wrong, please. I'm not saying that JLN's results are bogus. It's just that the evidence produced thus far has not crossed the threshold (ever rising, I'm afraid) where I am galvanized into action. I enjoyed Jones Beenes thorough summary of things ZPE. But one statement of his puzzles me: "Rubbish. We can and do get something for nothing all the time in QM. It is happening all around us, in every cell in our bodies 24/7 but at the quantum level." I wonder what he's talking about here. QM is energy conserving, at least on average. Scott Little Earthtech International, Inc. www.earthtech.org little earthtech.org Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 09:32:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HGWNGE030246; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:32:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HGWKpm030227; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:32:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:32:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.50.50] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: The summer of MAHG Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:27:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050717162726.CSP714.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Hmmm.... MC_HOT .... I like it... but does it sound too much like > a "rap" group I thought of it more like Mickey D's new tamale offering. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 09:40:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HGeS7C000557; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:40:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HGeRhC000526; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:40:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:40:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=tzn1k9P56BTbaYB4Af9McBfeDupgRnqrmNx3NQfIYaGEcenBBFk5XqngVaEbzL/2; Message-ID: <410-220057017154025870 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:40:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401c6fe97342516dad49a5deb54f0fc65d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.251 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Harry Veeder wrote: > > Animation of an internal combustion engine: > > http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine7.htm > That's good, Harry, but you only need 2 cycles, compression and expansion, Frederick > Harry ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine
    Harry Veeder wrote:
    >
    > Animation of an internal combustion engine:
    >
    >
    That's good, Harry,  but you only need  2 cycles, compression and expansion,
     
    Frederick
    > Harry
    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 10:26:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HHQYxh016635; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:26:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HHQWKs016621; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:26:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:26:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:25:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine In-reply-to: <410-220057017154025870 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_7oyVadMQr9SWuAOrtNCjMg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_7oyVadMQr9SWuAOrtNCjMg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Frederick Sparber wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: > > Animation of an internal combustion engine: > > http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine7.htm > That's good, Harry, but you only need 2 cycles, compression and expansion, Frederick > Harry Is the spark .... ZPE ?! Harry --Boundary_(ID_7oyVadMQr9SWuAOrtNCjMg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine Frederick Sparber wrote:

    Harry Veeder wrote:
    >
    > Animation of an internal combustion engine:
    >
    > http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine7.htm  <http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine7.htm&nbsp;>  
    >
    That's good, Harry,  but you only need  2 cycles, compression and expansion,

    Frederick
    > Harry


    Is the spark  .... ZPE ?!

    Harry --Boundary_(ID_7oyVadMQr9SWuAOrtNCjMg)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 12:34:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6HJYBmH032424; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:34:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6HJY4Ln032398; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:34:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:34:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=pFaL2ijqN1LjCgP3wAExmGLtGVuLLilVYysYBFxfs3Cbx5ktdB5EiydAH3mVcD0q; Message-ID: <410-220057017183416660 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:34:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403e33a3185a2825944ba7a0818f47b9da350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.64 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Harry Veeder wrote: > > Is the spark .... ZPE ?! > Nope, but the exhaust gases of an ICE might show some OU if you could do calorimetry on them. Actually, Compression- Expansion-Compression is only one cycle. A free-piston setup (gas on both sides of a piston) with a coil and magnet would make for a generator, thus eliminating all the mechanical chores. :-). Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Harry Veeder wrote:
    >
    > Is the spark  .... ZPE ?!
    >
    Nope, but the exhaust gases of an ICE might show some OU if
    you could do calorimetry on them.
     
    Actually, Compression- Expansion-Compression is only one cycle.
     
    A free-piston setup (gas on both sides of a piston) with a coil and magnet would
    make for a generator, thus eliminating all the mechanical chores. :-).
     
    Frederick
     
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 17 20:49:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6I3nND3018047; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:49:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6I3nKxn018005; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:49:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:49:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I Sing the Sun Electric - Part II Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:49:02 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050715174909.ISCN4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050715174909.ISCN4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:49:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6I3n764017738 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:49:09 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Unlike me, this guy is no crackpot and others seem to be taking him seriously: > >http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/index.html? > >Excerpting from: > >http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/model.htm? > His reasoning appears to be based on spectroscopic evidence of Iron on the sun. Mills has however already shown that the iron lines are in fact hydrino lines, which is much more likely IMO than iron lines. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 01:28:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6I8RSPf011003; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:27:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6I8RJX2010920; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:27:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:27:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050718082658.0095a124 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:26:58 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Towards the Next Crusade. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 06:01:45 in reply to a post from Fred, viz. "Molecular Water Free Energy Generator?" I wrote, ======================================================= Funnily enough, the idea of molecules bashing into one another and walls ties in with the attempts I am making to see pressure and Compreture (inverse of temperature) as term in the series, dL/dt, [(d^2)L/dt^2], [(d^3)L/dt^3], ......[(d^n)L/dt^n] where L is length, t is time and n in an integer... ======================================================= I am making some progress in this endeavour but before going into the hierarchical structure of the gas law PV = T .... (I have omitted the constant since it is merely a manifestation of scales chosen and not fundamental - which is why of course that the gas law doppelganger IR = V doesn't have any constant) .....I have something which is worth posting now. In relation to Stefan's Law, radiant energy [e] = a constant x T^4 Now rewriting this in terms of Compreture (C), the inverse of temperature, we have, 1/e = k x C^[-4] Now this form is intuitively suggestive of... 1/e = k x [sq.rt.C] x [sq.rt.C] ...which in turn suggests we are dealing with 2 levels of radiation since mod^2 suggests energy. So, it appears that we are dealing with, not one but two hierarchical levels of radiation. What can one make of this? Thus we can see 'e' as the difference between an emission E and an adsorption E + dE and one can see where the T^4 term comes from. 1/(T^2) - 1/[(T^2) - d(T^2)] = d(T^2)/T^4 So, we can see that black body radiation is in fact the small difference between a much greater emission and adsorption of radiation. And what are the emitters? And what are the absorbers? Well, we have obvious sources and sinks in the proton and the electron so presumably these are they. The electron is the high pressure emitter. The proton is the lower pressure absorber. The black body radiation is the difference between what the electron emits and the proton absorbs. And all this suggests a rather neat structure for the neutral mass space particle which has beene [sic ;-) ] variously labelled as the epo (or materon). It is suggested that this particle comprises a positron embedded within an electron - a structure similar to the hydrogen atom but with a positron at the centre instead of a proton. Interestingly enough, Boltzmann derived Stefan's Law theoretically by considering a heat engine with light as the working matter. It could well be that the emission/absorption insight is implicit in his model but because the theoretical approach was insufficiently fundamental, the deeper implications were never followed up. Cheers Frank Grimer During WW2 I remember a British tank called the Crusader. It seems to me that the Crusader Particle would be a good name for the materon/epo since like crusaders of yore it carries a cross (the plus sign) and a sword, the negative sign. Not a politically correct suggestion, I know, but in the week following the London bombings I am getting the feeling that a showdown between the christian west and the muhammadan east is only a matter of time. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 02:53:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6I9mxcu016422; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:49:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6I9mpXU016352; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:48:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:48:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=fNLkxbA6ikmZWh1GWABlWrcZUw7JScSLqvFjvJ1NQeb/8sRyMYJ9L4cE0YgEOJak; Message-ID: <410-22005711884846210 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: A Spring-Magnets Casimir Over-Unity Simulator Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:48:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405e6ea64a5fc187c5926b6989d86741ee350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.43 Resent-Message-ID: <_PtE6D.A.Q_D._r32CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mounting two magnets (separated) inside a non-magnetic coil spring (compression) so that the 1/R^4 attractive force can aid in compressing it when it's dropped from a height sufficient to cause it to compress slightly (thermal collision force aided by the Casimir force) should show some interesting bounce effects, albeit the coil spring is a linear device as opposed to the 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between the atomic nuclei. The bounce height compared to that of a similar spring with non-magnetic slugs of the same mass as the magnets should illustrate the point. How high, Mr. Grimer? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Mounting two magnets (separated)  inside a non-magnetic coil spring (compression) so that
    the 1/R^4 attractive force can aid in compressing it when it's dropped from  a height
    sufficient to cause it to compress slightly (thermal collision force aided by the Casimir  force)
    should show some interesting bounce effects, albeit the coil spring
    is a linear device as opposed to the 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between
    the atomic nuclei.
     
    The bounce height compared to that of a similar spring with non-magnetic slugs of
    the same mass as the magnets should illustrate the point.
     
    How high, Mr. Grimer?  :-)
     
    Frederick
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 04:13:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IBCOEQ022422; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:12:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IBCC0N022302; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:12:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:12:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=EMdguFoDvpEEg1Jwc78wVHsMVzQR5p1+vC22d4UYI7BNqzKajw8QEHbeqwL0ea4E; Message-ID: <410-22005711810111810 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: MAHG & Spring-Magnets Casimir Over-Unity Simulator Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 05:11:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407322652b20ba2e8a979b170f6561dcf1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.182 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Re: Re: Microbubble Collapse, Lennard-Jones Potential and ZPE From: Puthoff Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:54:36 In a message dated 11/22/98 5:31:15 AM, you wrote: <> Our interest in Roger Stringham's device comes from this kind of possibility. Hal Lennard-Jones Potential Curve: http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/images/image01.gif ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 7/18/05 4:49:15 AM Subject: Re: A Spring-Magnets Casimir Over-Unity Simulator Mounting two magnets (separated) inside a non-magnetic coil spring (compression) so that the 1/R^4 attractive force can aid in compressing it when it's dropped from a height sufficient to cause it to compress slightly (thermal collision force aided by the Casimir force) should show some interesting bounce effects, albeit the coil spring is a linear device as opposed to the 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between the atomic nuclei. The bounce height compared to that of a similar spring with non-magnetic slugs of the same mass as the magnets should illustrate the point. How high, Mr. Grimer? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Re: Re: Microbubble Collapse, Lennard-Jones Potential and ZPE

    From: Puthoff

    Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:54:36 In a message dated 11/22/98 5:31:15 AM, you wrote:

    <<When a bubble collapses the molecules are driven into close proximity such that the Lennard-Jones Potential goes beyond the negative minimum "well". This seems to be where the ZPE extraction, or the Schwinger-Feynman-Tomanaga "borrowing of energy from the vacuum" by the Electromagnetic Interaction; dE = hbar/dt takes place resulting in O/U effects.     Same difference,Hal?>>

    Our interest in Roger Stringham's device comes from this kind of possibility.

    Hal

     Lennard-Jones Potential Curve:

    http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/images/image01.gif
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: 7/18/05 4:49:15 AM
    Subject: Re: A Spring-Magnets Casimir Over-Unity Simulator

    Mounting two magnets (separated)  inside a non-magnetic coil spring (compression) so that
    the 1/R^4 attractive force can aid in compressing it when it's dropped from  a height
    sufficient to cause it to compress slightly (thermal collision force aided by the Casimir  force)
    should show some interesting bounce effects, albeit the coil spring
    is a linear device as opposed to the 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between
    the atomic nuclei.
     
    The bounce height compared to that of a similar spring with non-magnetic slugs of
    the same mass as the magnets should illustrate the point.
     
    How high, Mr. Grimer?  :-)
     
    Frederick
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 07:21:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IEKxo9016843; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:21:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IEKeFN016594; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:20:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:20:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:19:02 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: magnetic pulse circuits Message-ID: <42DB9026.5737.74E2BDF localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20050718104315.63689.qmail web60311.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050715174909.ISCN4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:25:47 -0300 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 200.102.70.237 X-Return-Path: mark cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:25:51 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 18 Jul 2005 at 3:43, Nick Reiter wrote: > Paul has been working again on the solid state > version, which apparently would use sequenced pulse > generators to pump layered windings on solenoids to > produce a form of vacuum coherence and OU type action. It seems he is trying to build a no moving parts homopolar generator. That would be very interesting, if it works. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 07:25:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IEOcQP018526; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:24:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IEOPmH018416; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:24:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:24:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c58ba4$5411fe90$54037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:23:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C58B7A.6ABD29A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C58B7A.6ABD29A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C58B7A.6ABD29A0" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C58B7A.6ABD29A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote.. >It seems to me that the Crusader=20 Particle would be a good name for the materon/epo=20 since like crusaders of yore it carries a cross=20 (the plus sign) and a sword, the negative sign. Not a politically correct suggestion, I know, but in the week following the London bombings I am getting the feeling that a showdown between the=20 christian west and the muhammadan east is only a matter of time. Cultures eminate from religious doctrines. The showdown began in 600 AD = with the beginning of the doctrine of " fatalism" expounded by Muhammed. = An analogy can be drawn by the story of the Muslin truck driver. Should = the truck break down just over the hill on a dark road, the Muslim would = leave the truck in the middle of the road. Anyone killed by crashing = into the truck would be the will of Allah. However, a Christian truck = driver would think.. better push the truck off to the side to avoid = anyone running into the truck and killing themselves. This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One fatalistic = and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C58B7A.6ABD29A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Grimer wrote..

    >It seems to me that the Crusader
    Particle would be a good = name for=20 the materon/epo
    since like crusaders of yore it carries a cross =
    (the=20 plus sign) and a sword, the negative sign.

    Not a politically = correct=20 suggestion, I know, but
    in the week following the London bombings I=20 am
    getting the feeling that a showdown between the
    christian west = and the=20 muhammadan east is only
    a matter of time.

    Cultures eminate from religious doctrines. The showdown began in 600 = AD with=20 the beginning of the doctrine of " fatalism" expounded by Muhammed. An = analogy=20 can be drawn by the story of the Muslin truck driver. Should the truck = break=20 down just over the hill on a dark road, the Muslim would leave the truck = in the=20 middle of the road. Anyone killed by crashing into the truck would be = the will=20 of Allah. However, a Christian truck driver would think.. better push = the truck=20 off to the side to avoid anyone running into the truck and killing=20 themselves.

    This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One = fatalistic and=20 one hopeful. One based on evil and one on=20 good.

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C58B7A.6ABD29A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C58B7A.6ABD29A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001b01c58ba4$5386fca0$54037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C58B7A.6ABD29A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 03:44:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IAhXhQ009225; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:43:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IAhU3r009197; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:43:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:43:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=knIEL6TAADhQQ/7GMGSfvhPsqz4LKK1GXePZQ2PaDK/qiZzXc+hrbu4908XjZ2lsuytP81OS36ygunEPi243Osu/EQMba6PR4+j1NGbuzNCaaqGTRjK7IqQQYK5Py1TrvHZeiXFDAg8SGYUT5B21bWkovjodmwbQYdoTxJolt8c= ; Message-ID: <20050718104315.63689.qmail web60311.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:43:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Reiter Subject: magnetic pulse circuits To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050715174909.ISCN4625.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends12 Status: RO X-Status: Good morning all, Yesterday, from out of the blue, I heard from an old mad scientist chum, formerly from Massachussetts, now living in Hawaii. This was the friend who had spent a number of years working on an "anomaly machine" with counter-rotating solenoids. About the time he moved to Hawaii, he had been working on a solid state "non-moving" version. Fell out of touch with him about then. Paul has been working again on the solid state version, which apparently would use sequenced pulse generators to pump layered windings on solenoids to produce a form of vacuum coherence and OU type action. As most new energy inventors and tinkerers, Paul has his own idea of how it is supposed to work. I can't judge the concept one way or another. The gist is this; Paul is looking for a hand in the way of someone who could assemble the pulse forming and driver section circuit boards. He apparently has the boards themselves done, and has all the components, but needs a steady solder hand for assembly and someone to verify the boards' operation. He would generously work something out for payment / barter / piece of the glory. I have way too much on my plate, but I offered to make a quick posting here. If anyone out there is interested in a little adventure like this, let me know off-list, and I will get you in touch with Paul in Maui. regards, Nick Reiter ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 09:05:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IG4fOi011132; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:04:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IG4UUP010960; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:04:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:04:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718115502.0394b900 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:01:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New article by Haiko Lietz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Haiko Lietz has published a new article in German on cavitation: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20541/1.html It is attracting a lot of traffic to LENR-CANR.org, from a link in the article to a paper by Roger Stringham. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 09:29:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IGTCFV028278; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:29:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IGTBnQ028258; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:29:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:29:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DBD8F8.9020706 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:29:44 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade References: <002001c58ba4$5411fe90$54037841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <002001c58ba4$5411fe90$54037841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Grimer wrote.. > > >It seems to me that the Crusader > Particle would be a good name for the materon/epo > since like crusaders of yore it carries a cross > (the plus sign) and a sword, the negative sign. > > Not a politically correct suggestion, I know, but > in the week following the London bombings I am > getting the feeling that a showdown between the > christian west and the muhammadan east is only > a matter of time. > > Cultures eminate from religious doctrines. The showdown began in 600 AD > with the beginning of the doctrine of " fatalism" expounded by Muhammed. > An analogy can be drawn by the story of the Muslin truck driver. Should > the truck break down just over the hill on a dark road, the Muslim would > leave the truck in the middle of the road. Anyone killed by crashing > into the truck would be the will of Allah. However, a Christian truck > driver would think.. better push the truck off to the side to avoid > anyone running into the truck and killing themselves. Although these comments are off topic, I can not let such an observation go by without challenge. If Richard were the only one holding these beliefs, I would not bother. However, they seem to be widely shared and are increasingly driving US government policy. So that you do not mistake the source of my observations, I'm not Muslim, Liberal, or Conservative. I'm a realist who looks at the world and asks what it wants to show me. In contrast, the Liberal and Conservative look at the world and interpret what is observed to fit a particular model. In the case of Richard's comments, he looks at the action of a few fanatical Muslims and interprets this as being a war between Islam and Christianity. The same mental defect is shared by some skeptics of cold fusion, ZPE and all the other new ideas. They are blinded about what is actually real by their model of how they think nature and people behave. When taken to extreme, this characteristic is called insanity. One universal characteristic of insanity is that the insane do not believe they have this problem and attribute their problems to society in general or to someone else who is out to get them. In this case, it is the Muslims or, in a few cases, the Liberals. The facts are that the West, but especially the US government, by many actions over the years has angered many people, but especially in countries that happen to be Muslim. Just as any objective person world expect, this anger is now being focused on the world using "acts of terror", the only method available to such people. Of the various countries suffering terrorism, only the US has expanded the problem by waging war on Iraq and, as Richard has done, implicating the entire Muslim religion. Not only is this approach alien to basic Christian beliefs, but it is a very poor policy from a practical view point. For example, how would we expect to find and neutralize terrorist cells without help of the general Muslim population? What is the point of making 25% of the world's population your enemy and a potential source of more terrorists? From a practical viewpoint, it will be impossible to stop the terrorists without their help. So Richard, please think a little rather than reacting to the fanatical Christian viewpoint. Regards, Ed > > This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One fatalistic > and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good. > > Richard > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 09:39:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IGcwlH001446; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:39:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IGcuv0001423; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:38:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:38:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718121431.0394fcd0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:38:34 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade In-Reply-To: <002001c58ba4$5411fe90$54037841 xptower> References: <002001c58ba4$5411fe90$54037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >An analogy can be drawn by the story of the Muslin truck driver. Should >the truck break down just over the hill on a dark road, the Muslim would >leave the truck in the middle of the road. Anyone killed by crashing into >the truck would be the will of Allah. However, a Christian truck driver >would think.. I do not think much of religion, but this kind of "story" is grotesque, bigoted crap. No truck drivers anywhere in the world do such stupid things. They would not survive! People everywhere know how to do their jobs. (On rare occasions a crazy or drunk truck driver might do this sort of thing -- but it can happen in any society.) Frankly, I think this kind of comment is unacceptable in a forum devoted to objective, realistic, informed scientific discussions. I do not mind off-topic comments, but bigotry -- and gross ignorance of other peoples' cultures -- violates the scientific ethic. I should add that ancient Moslem society contributed enormously to the preservation and expansion of science, especially during the European dark ages. Moslem researchers made enormous contributions to mathematics, chemistry, astronomy and many other fields. The "al" in "al Qaeda" came into English many times in history under happier circumstances, in words such as algebra, alcohol, alkali and alchemy (which later morphed into "chemistry"). See also "zero" and our numbering system. It is one of histories greatest tragedies that over the last 600 years, many Moslems have turned their backs on science. But based on their previous history and contributions, there is absolutely no reason to think that rationality and science are somehow incompatible with their culture. On the contrary, looking at the big picture over the last 2000 years, and the continuing rabid opposition to things like evolution by some Christian sects, you might conclude that Christianity has a bigger problem. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 10:00:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IH06N2010920; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:00:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IH02ZM010880; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:00:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:00:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718124458.0394f360 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:59:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718121431.0394fcd0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <002001c58ba4$5411fe90$54037841 xptower> <6.2.1.2.2.20050718121431.0394fcd0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >The "al" in "al Qaeda" came into English many times in history under >happier circumstances, in words such as algebra, alcohol, alkali and >alchemy (which later morphed into "chemistry"). See also zero . . . Also algorism and algorithm (from Muhammad ibn Khwarizmi-Musa), cipher, average and zenith. And coffee, without which scientific thinking would be impossible. Let there be no doubt: all God's children got algorithms. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 10:05:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IH4Ytc012868; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:04:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IH4VCQ012826; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:04:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:04:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c58bba$9948f340$b431ebdc default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <002001c58ba4$5411fe90$54037841 xptower> <6.2.1.2.2.20050718121431.0394fcd0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:03:18 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed and Ed I am in complete agreement No need to write more Regards JohnH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 12:38 AM Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade > RC Macaulay wrote: > > >An analogy can be drawn by the story of the Muslin truck driver. Should > >the truck break down just over the hill on a dark road, the Muslim would > >leave the truck in the middle of the road. Anyone killed by crashing into > >the truck would be the will of Allah. However, a Christian truck driver > >would think.. > > I do not think much of religion, but this kind of "story" is grotesque, > bigoted crap. No truck drivers anywhere in the world do such stupid things. > They would not survive! People everywhere know how to do their jobs. (On > rare occasions a crazy or drunk truck driver might do this sort of thing -- > but it can happen in any society.) > > Frankly, I think this kind of comment is unacceptable in a forum devoted to > objective, realistic, informed scientific discussions. I do not mind > off-topic comments, but bigotry -- and gross ignorance of other peoples' > cultures -- violates the scientific ethic. > > I should add that ancient Moslem society contributed enormously to the > preservation and expansion of science, especially during the European dark > ages. Moslem researchers made enormous contributions to mathematics, > chemistry, astronomy and many other fields. The "al" in "al Qaeda" came > into English many times in history under happier circumstances, in words > such as algebra, alcohol, alkali and alchemy (which later morphed into > "chemistry"). See also "zero" and our numbering system. > > It is one of histories greatest tragedies that over the last 600 years, > many Moslems have turned their backs on science. But based on their > previous history and contributions, there is absolutely no reason to think > that rationality and science are somehow incompatible with their culture. > On the contrary, looking at the big picture over the last 2000 years, and > the continuing rabid opposition to things like evolution by some Christian > sects, you might conclude that Christianity has a bigger problem. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 11:31:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IIV9FB021422; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:31:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IIV3CD021346; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:31:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:31:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:29:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Towards the Next Crusade. In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050718082658.0095a124 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6IIUm8k021218 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Grimer, It appears you are saying that IN THEORY a blackbody is not in a state of perfect thermal equilibrium as other theoreticians have assumed. Anyway, you and others might like to read this paper published in the June 2005 issue of the Canadian Journal of Physics: ------ Why the cavity-mode method for deriving Planck's law is flawed F.E. Irons Can. J. Phys./Rev. Can. Phys. 83(6): 617-628 (2005) Abstract: The cavity-mode method for deriving Planck's law (the method pioneered by Lord Rayleigh in 1900 for the regime hv << kT) is known to lack internal consistency. Past attempts at bypassing the inconsistency have proceeded by postulating a novel type of interaction between radiation and matter, one which contrasts with the type of interaction to be found in the widely accepted, detailed balancing method for deriving Planck's law (the method pioneered by Planck and Einstein). The paper examines this issue and finds that the novel interaction is an invention without supportive evidence, being just the type of interaction needed to bypass the inconsistency. The conclusion is that the inconsistency remains real and the cavity-mode method for deriving Planck's law remains flawed. ------ Complete paper available here: http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cgi-bin/rp/rp2_tocs_e?cjp_cjp6-05_83 Harry Grimer wrote: > On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 06:01:45 in reply to a post from > Fred, viz. "Molecular Water Free Energy Generator?" > I wrote, > > ======================================================= > Funnily enough, the idea of molecules bashing into one > another and walls ties in with the attempts I am making > to see pressure and Compreture (inverse of temperature) > as term in the series, > dL/dt, [(d^2)L/dt^2], [(d^3)L/dt^3], ......[(d^n)L/dt^n] > where L is length, t is time and n in an integer... > ======================================================= > > I am making some progress in this endeavour but before > going into the hierarchical structure of the gas law > PV = T .... > (I have omitted the constant since it is merely > a manifestation of scales chosen and not fundamental - > which is why of course that the gas law doppelganger > IR = V doesn't have any constant) > .....I have something which is worth > posting now. > > In relation to Stefan's Law, > > radiant energy [e] = a constant x T^4 > > Now rewriting this in terms of Compreture (C), the > inverse of temperature, we have, > > 1/e = k x C^[-4] > > Now this form is intuitively suggestive of... > > 1/e = k x [sq.rt.C] x [sq.rt.C] > > ...which in turn suggests we are dealing with 2 > levels of radiation since mod^2 suggests energy. > > So, it appears that we are dealing with, not one > but two hierarchical levels of radiation. What can > one make of this? > > Thus we can see 'e' as the difference between an > emission E and an adsorption E + dE > > and one can see where the T^4 term comes from. > > 1/(T^2) - 1/[(T^2) - d(T^2)] > > = d(T^2)/T^4 > > So, we can see that black body radiation is in fact > the small difference between a much greater emission > and adsorption of radiation. > > And what are the emitters? > And what are the absorbers? > > Well, we have obvious sources and sinks in the proton > and the electron so presumably these are they. > > The electron is the high pressure emitter. > The proton is the lower pressure absorber. > > The black body radiation is the difference > between what the electron emits and the > proton absorbs. > > And all this suggests a rather neat structure > for the neutral mass space particle which has > beene [sic ;-) ] variously labelled as the epo > (or materon). > > It is suggested that this particle comprises > a positron embedded within an electron - a > structure similar to the hydrogen atom but > with a positron at the centre instead of a > proton. > > Interestingly enough, Boltzmann derived Stefan's > Law theoretically by considering a heat engine > with light as the working matter. It could well > be that the emission/absorption insight is > implicit in his model but because the theoretical > approach was insufficiently fundamental, the deeper > implications were never followed up. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > During WW2 I remember a British tank called the > Crusader. It seems to me that the Crusader > Particle would be a good name for the materon/epo > since like crusaders of yore it carries a cross > (the plus sign) and a sword, the negative sign. > > Not a politically correct suggestion, I know, but > in the week following the London bombings I am > getting the feeling that a showdown between the > christian west and the muhammadan east is only > a matter of time. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 11:49:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IInKC1028948; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:49:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IInID6028926; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:49:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:49:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:48:41 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718115502.0394b900 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718115502.0394b900 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507182048.41583.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <4aVJ4B.A.6DH.tm_2CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Am Montag, 18. Juli 2005 18:01 schrieb Jed Rothwell: > Haiko Lietz has published a new article in German on cavitation: > > http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20541/1.html > > It is attracting a lot of traffic to LENR-CANR.org, from a link in the > article to a paper by Roger Stringham. > > - Jed I find it somewhat incredible that Putterman is still dogging Taleyarkhan about his findings, especially since Putterman himself, spent 4 years prosecuting his own patent for fusion in a cavitation bubble. He got the patent eventually in '94, but seems to want to deny that other people can do it, as well. The entire neutron to light flash timing objection is so lame as to be laughable. Anyway, I'm glad to see Haiko Lietz is making this known to the German public. Very little in the way of experimentation had been done in Germany when I first returned, I think primarily due to the lag time caused by the language barrier. Heise is widely read by the techies here, and the experiment is so inexpensive to do that perhaps more of the European universities will be promted to make the effort to translate the details of the experiment and replicate. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 12:44:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IJhjEa019481; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:43:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IJhg2c019419; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:43:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:43:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718154253.03952ea0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:43:32 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718115502.0394b900 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718115502.0394b900 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: By the way, there is a link at the top of that paper to an English version. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 12:46:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IJkav3021443; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:46:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IJkZos021408; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:46:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:46:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050718194619.009a8f70 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:46:19 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Foundation for Hierarchical Analysis Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6IJkM58021321 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In order to lay the foundations for an hierarchical analysis of the Ideal Gas Law (which will show that though Volume, Pressure and Temperature look to be very different physical entities, they are essentially the same thing under different aliases) I can't do better than to reproduce a post I sent to Ing.Saviour's Yahoo Group last January. =================================================== Hi Savvy, I'll try to deal with another of your points. You wrote:- ------------------------------------------- A line is 1m long, a plane is 1m^2, and a volume is 1m^3. Now, you can eliminate the metre unit and say that length is 1 in 1D, area is 1 in 2D, volume is 1 in 3D, and you would not loose any information, you would be 100% correct in both value and description. But... if one does not believe in higher than 1 dimensions, and tries to do the same job, he will say that length =1, area=1x1=1 and volume =1x1x1=1, numerically correct, but he lost all information. ------------------------------------------- I rather think that we may be more or less agreement on this one but to make sure I will give my view of the situation. The central problem is what one means by dimension. For instance, if one takes the x, y and z Cartesian dimensions to be unlimited in magnitude to the indefinitely large and the indefinitely small and to include all the interleaved number sets, integer, real, irrational, transcendental and any others which I've forgotten or haven't yet been heard of at "Harvard", ;-) then space has only three Cartesian dimensions and to talk of more is nonsense. However, I take a different view of spatial dimension, a view more in tune with an engineering viewpoint which thinks in terms of upper and lower bounds, a view more in tune with Ross-Ashby's concept of requisite variety, a view more conformable with the realisation that any experimental data is unavoidably finite in extent, represents a limited a limited number of information, and therefor requires only a finite number set to represent it; a finite dimension in other words. Now many people treat the Cartesian axes as if they are all equal. They are not. No matter how far you extend the x axis you are never going to get anywhere along the y axis. The x, y, and z axes are separated by unbridgeable gulfs. The trouble is that the hierarchical order in which they are used is arbitrary and not prescribed. Though conventionally one uses x for increasing length, y for increasing area and z for increasing volume, one is not forced to do so. This means that the necessary hierarchical relationship between length, area and volume is hidden. Another conventional feature which hides the necessary hierarchical relation is the discordance between the convention governing the presentation of Cartesian co-ordinate and the convention governing the decimal numbering system. I will take a particular example to illustrate what I mean. Suppose we have three Cartesian axes, x, y and z, with each axis having finite intervals of 0 to 999. In effect we have a 1000 by 1000 by 1000 array of volumes. Think of them as solid pixels, eh!. 8-) Now suppose we want to represent the pixel x = 674, y = 392 and z = 518. The conventional way of doing this is to represent the co- ordinate in the order, x, y, z. i.e. as 674,392,518 which is unconformable with the decimal number system. If we put the co- ordinates in the reverse order, l.e. z, x, y ¬ 518,392,674 the co- ordinate can then be viewed as a decimal number. The 674 represents where the pixel is along the finger of pixels axis. The 392 represents where the pixel is in the slice of pixel fingers. And the 518 represents where the pixel is in the sliced loaf. You can see that the order, largest first, smallest last, is now the same for the pixel co-ordinates and the number system. Unfortunately, the concordance in the above example, though improved by reversing the conventional order of presenting the pixel co- ordinates, is not as good as it might be. The independent number orders corresponding to the loaf, slice and finger, are millions, thousand and units. The independence of these orders is symbolised by the commas between them which are totally conformable with the commas between the z, x and y co-ordinates. However, in the number system there is a sub-order of hundreds, tens and ones, in each of what might be termed the "comma orders" of millions, thousands and units. If we wanted to line up the decimal number system and the coordinate system even closer we will have to either change the example to a 10 x 10 x 10 array which will give us the number 537 with each digit representing an independent dimension - OR - we can change our number system to make it conformable with the example by going to a number system with nine hundred and ninety nine separate characters, in which case we will have a number which looks like this say # - which is not a very practical proposition - me thinks. 8-) There are two interesting examples where people have recognised the unconformity of different systems and tried to bring them into conformity. A contemporary example is the way that certain programmers represent a date such as the 11th of September 2001 as 20010911 (convenient for sorting dates in order) rather than the British convention of 11/9/2001 or even more irrational and confusing, the US way of 9/11/2001 which as far as I can see has nothing whatsoever to recommend it. An older example is the attempt by the French revolutionaries to de- Christianize the calendar by dividing each month into three decades of 10 days, of which the final day was a rest day. A terribly unpopular move, as you might imagine, since it increased the number of working days between the rest days by 50%. >From the above exposition, you can see that anyone who uses the decimal number system implicitly believes in a multi-dimensional system since the decimal system is multi-dimensional with ten divisions in each dimension. A non-dimensional number system would have separate characters for each cardinal number and no way of ordering them. It would in fact be a naming system since the names Smith, Brown and Jones are merely identifies and have no ordinal (hierarchical) content. If some perverse person argues that they do have ordinal characteristics since you can order the names alphabetically, I reply that this characteristic relates to the names and not their owners. One must distinguish between the two since the connections are arbitrary, just as the connections between the characters { 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 } and the ordinal numbers, {zero, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine} are likewise arbitrary. You can demonstrate this quite easily by asking someone who has been brought up with different characters for 0 to 9, to arrange the european characters in their ordinal sequence. Their arrangement will be largely intelligent guesswork and highly dependent on the graphics with which the numbers are represented. To summarise then, I see the integer decimal number system which practical scientists and engineers [as opposed to mathematical metaphysicians ;-) ] use to represent the physical world, as multidimensional. What one might call the main triangulation points are represented by the use of commas, between groups of three figure. However, the total number of dimensions is best seen by representing the number as ten to the power. The number of dimensions is then simply the power, i.e. the power to which 10 is raised. The number of dimensions is therefore dependent on the number base which the user chooses. If the user adds six more characters, A to F say, and chooses a number system with base 16 then the number of dimensions will be decreased correspondingly. The maximum number of dimensions that can be obtained is, of course that given by a number system with only two characters, zero and one, i.e. the binary system. This has many advantages, but is not much used outside computing circles because our education in the decimal system makes instant association of the symbolism of such binary numbers as 1110001111, 1010011010 and 111001 impossible. In base 10 however, the associations are instant, viz. terrorism, the antichrist and beans. I should point out to any executive officer of H.J.Heinz Company that I do not wish to imply that there is any connection between terrorism, the antichrist and their nutritious comestible. ========================================== Going somewhat off topic I have often mused that a good way to disguise one's pin number would be to choose a memorable octal number, 1776 say if you're a colonial, and use the decimal equivalent of that number, 1022 as your pin number. Even better, write 1776 on the back of your card and then any thief finding it will think your a complete and utter moron and never dream you have coded in octal. If you do ever forget your number then all you will need is a pencil and paper to reconstruct it. But surely, not even colonials could be so stupid as to choose such an obvious number as a pin number. ;-) You'd be surprised. I'm ashamed to say that one of my own daughters was using 1066 until I warned her that the date of the Battle of Hastings was one of the first dates that any English thief would try - precisely because it is so memorable to English cardholders. ================================================== Re-reading my post I'm not sure I have really conformed my view to yours. I'll take just the last point [1x1x1=1] to see if I can engineer a meeting of minds. Now my example for the loss of information that you recognise would be as follows. Suppose we have a lorry full of cigarettes. The cigs are 20 to a packet, 10 packets to a box, 12 boxes to a case and 8 cases to a lorry load. The number of cigs is 20x10x12x8 = 19200. So, the multiplication string has lost us quite a few items of information. We do not know how many cigs in a packet, how many packets in a case, how many cases in the lorry. But surely, any multiplication string loses information. There is nothing mysterious about that. The whole of physics is built on losing information. The cigs example is also useful in showing how one can multiply up dimensions at will. In fact we have 5 dimensions, cigs, packets, boxes, crates and lorries - and you will see that there is nothing at all mysterious about the fourth and fifth dimensions. The reason we can have multiple dimensions is that we have done away with the Cartesian tyranny of infinite axes and recognised that for real objects there must be upper and lower bounds. The trouble with the quantum and 'c' is that these bounds are seen as absolute, whereas, like all other bounds they can only be relative to the particular physical objects they are measuring. Cheers Frank =============================================================== The above sets the scene for recognising the hierarchical nature of PV = RT Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 13:01:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IK1OpI029416; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:01:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IK1NXW029387; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:01:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:01:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050718200112.009bdce8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:01:12 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:43 pm 18/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >By the way, there is a link at the top of that paper to an English version. > >- Jed Thanks for pointing that out, Jed. I had missed the link and, not knowing German, had given up. 8-( Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 13:19:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IKJI0L008181; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:19:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IKJFbt008141; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:19:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:19:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050718201902.009bed84 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:19:02 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:01 pm 18/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >Haiko Lietz has published a new article in German on cavitation: > >http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20541/1.html > >It is attracting a lot of traffic to LENR-CANR.org, from a link in the >article to a paper by Roger Stringham. > >- Jed I was interested to read this bit, ============================================== "Putterman demands a timed coincidence between flashes of light due to sonoluminescence and neutron measurements in a time window of a billionth of a second. Taleyarkhan's group had only shown a correlation to be within a 2 millisecond window." ============================================== If I'm right in my view that fusion must be taking place when the Beta-atmosphere "vacuum" is at or near the maximum pF then they will never get the timed coincidence that Putterman demands. It will be interesting to see how the story develops. I only hope the experimenters don't "arrange" things, student fashion and correct a imaginary systematic error to give the "right" result. And if they do get the "wrong" result I hope they don't do a Newlands and imagine the fusion can't be taking place. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 13:32:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IKV04n013119; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:31:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IK86V9000813; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:08:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:08:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:06:57 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine In-reply-to: <410-220057017183416660 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_IhaYfLwSDGT5iQBulNDMXw)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_IhaYfLwSDGT5iQBulNDMXw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Would the behaviour of this "casimir engine" be closer to the behaviour of sterling engine rather than the behaviour of an internal combustion? Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: > > Is the spark .... ZPE ?! > Nope, but the exhaust gases of an ICE might show some OU if you could do calorimetry on them. Actually, Compression- Expansion-Compression is only one cycle. A free-piston setup (gas on both sides of a piston) with a coil and magnet would make for a generator, thus eliminating all the mechanical chores. :-). Frederick --Boundary_(ID_IhaYfLwSDGT5iQBulNDMXw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: One Cylinder Casimir Engine Would the behaviour of this "casimir engine" be closer to the behaviour of sterling engine
    rather than the behaviour of an internal combustion?

    Harry

    Frederick Sparber wrote:


    Harry Veeder wrote:
    >
    > Is the spark  .... ZPE ?!
    >
    Nope, but the exhaust gases of an ICE might show some OU if
    you could do calorimetry on them.

    Actually, Compression- Expansion-Compression is only one cycle.

    A free-piston setup (gas on both sides of a piston) with a coil and magnet would
    make for a generator, thus eliminating all the mechanical chores. :-).

    Frederick






    --Boundary_(ID_IhaYfLwSDGT5iQBulNDMXw)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 13:40:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IKdrkE016731; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:39:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IKdpQ6016702; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:39:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:39:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718163434.0396abd0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:39:32 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050718201902.009bed84 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050718201902.009bed84 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > "Putterman demands a timed coincidence between > flashes of light due to sonoluminescence and > neutron measurements in a time window of a > billionth of a second. Taleyarkhan's group had > only shown a correlation to be within a 2 > millisecond window." Apart from any theoretical consideration, Putterman's demand is nutty. A correlation is a correlation. If the timing does not fit Putterman's expectation, that means the phonomenon does not work the way Putterman thinks it does; it does not mean there there is no correlation. Roger Stringham and Russ George think that Putterman is being deliberately obtuse about this timing issue. He is setting a goal he knows the experiment will not meet, in order to denigrate the results. People have told me that Putterman is a political academic infighter. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 14:00:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IL0EQi027687; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:00:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IKVClc013234; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:31:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:31:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:29:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: A Spring-Magnets Casimir Over-Unity Simulator In-reply-to: <410-22005711884846210 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Eu8MQlCW+X8jBSu3VTGgbQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_Eu8MQlCW+X8jBSu3VTGgbQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Wouldn't the magnets also resist the expansion of the coil spring, so the magnets would have no net effect on the bounce height? Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Mounting two magnets (separated) inside a non-magnetic coil spring (compression) so that the 1/R^4 attractive force can aid in compressing it when it's dropped from a height sufficient to cause it to compress slightly (thermal collision force aided by the Casimir force) should show some interesting bounce effects, albeit the coil spring is a linear device as opposed to the 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between the atomic nuclei. The bounce height compared to that of a similar spring with non-magnetic slugs of the same mass as the magnets should illustrate the point. How high, Mr. Grimer? :-) Frederick --Boundary_(ID_Eu8MQlCW+X8jBSu3VTGgbQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: A Spring-Magnets Casimir Over-Unity Simulator Wouldn't the magnets also resist the expansion of the coil spring, so the magnets
    would have no net effect on the bounce height?

    Harry


    Frederick Sparber wrote:


    Mounting two magnets (separated)  inside a non-magnetic coil spring (compression) so that
    the 1/R^4 attractive force can aid in compressing it when it's dropped from  a height
    sufficient to cause it to compress slightly (thermal collision force aided by the Casimir  force)
    should show some interesting bounce effects, albeit the coil spring
    is a linear device as opposed to the 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between
    the atomic nuclei.

    The bounce height compared to that of a similar spring with non-magnetic slugs of
    the same mass as the magnets should illustrate the point.

    How high, Mr. Grimer?  :-)

    Frederick





    --Boundary_(ID_Eu8MQlCW+X8jBSu3VTGgbQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 14:22:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6ILLukT005170; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:22:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ILLssS005151; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:21:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:21:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=EhdwFeH6BcELIX/0wIA8cmE+Utsv5QR6ACYbiLcQ3xQ4TpLlLi8itWir4ncc2Q4FMAVSCueaW4y3XOvPLesRy3OAedqluQhrlr/dQO7vbpkp+1dAIFUAuPHUNSIepbltjjpSfnX2MMkfjxXfUPluv35ymuIhv6y4kfW0iCZxOj4= ; Message-ID: <20050718212139.68113.qmail web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050718201902.009bed84 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1634717298-1121721699=:67380" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1634717298-1121721699=:67380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jed, Yes - it is wonderful pioneering work that Putterman patented, with patent number 5,659,173 but it looks like the patent is still in force and will be for some time. Not to cause any arguments - but he did call for sonic Fusion using D+T as "fuels" whereby Purdue's addition of acetone is purely inconsequential. Exactly what is wrong with Putterman's objections to unauthorized use of his work and patent even if theory turns out to be completely in error but the principle works as patented? It is my understanding that can't patent a theory anyway, that is what copyright is for. Chris --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1634717298-1121721699=:67380 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Jed,
     
    Yes - it is wonderful pioneering work that Putterman patented, with patent number 5,659,173 but it looks like the patent is still in force and will be for some time. Not to cause any arguments - but he did call for sonic Fusion using D+T as "fuels" whereby Purdue's addition of acetone is purely inconsequential. Exactly what is wrong with Putterman's objections to unauthorized use of his work and patent even if theory turns out to be completely in error but the principle works as patented? It is my understanding that can't patent a theory anyway, that is what copyright is for.
     
    Chris

    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1634717298-1121721699=:67380-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 15:41:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6IMem9X017436; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:40:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6IMekvR017421; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:40:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:40:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <022201c58be9$71b734c0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718115502.0394b900 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050718154253.03952ea0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:38:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/plain"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_021F_01C58BC7.EA5BBA80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <7rg4wC.A.DQE.u_C3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C58BC7.EA5BBA80 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20542/1.html Bubble Fusion takes next hurdle Haiko LIetz 18.07.2005 The potential for cavitation to induce nuclear fusion lets physicists think in new directions of energy production In 2002 the journal "Science" caused a heated debate among scientists, when it was claimed that thermonuclear fusion was indeed possible in a simple table-top experiment. Until then only nuclear fusion in experimental reactors as big as houses were scientifically accepted. A second publication by the same team in "Physical Review E" (2004) convinced more scientists that there was something to cavitation-induced fusion. Now a confirmation of Bubble Fusion by a second group has been published. The discussion of a potential energy source now takes a new round. Link to English version: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20542/1.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 3:43 PM Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz > By the way, there is a link at the top of that paper to an English > version. > > - Jed > > ------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C58BC7.EA5BBA80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="extlink.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/icons/inline/extlink.gif R0lGODlhDgAKAKIAAMDAwAgICOfn55wICJQAAJwAAAAAAAAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAAOAAoAAAMj CArVvlC5FuOEJht215YU5SlEMSzn2Jxf9KUt5lZAoGUBnQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C58BC7.EA5BBA80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 17:34:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6J0Xo9X003159; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:33:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6J0XmNA003138; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:33:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:33:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.44.109] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:33:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050719003336.TLCF15746.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > I only hope the experimenters don't > "arrange" things, student fashion and correct a imaginary > systematic error to give the "right" result. > > And if they do get the "wrong" result I hope they don't > do a Newlands and imagine the fusion can't be taking > place. I believe that is called a "MIT" here. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 18:04:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6J13h84013710; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:03:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6J13gxZ013692; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:03:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:03:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004f01c58bfd$a98f3a50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Springs/ Magnets /Casimir and Victor's implosion Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:03:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Re: A Spring-Magnets Casimir Over-Unity SimulatorOne further thought to to add to the confusion: As mentioned, the Casimir force comes into play at a certain distance 2-10 nm, and the normal kinetic energy of a gas molecule can be increased or decreased by it (as the Casimir is not always attractive). This point about a _possible decrease_ in pressure has been overlooked previously, even though it is the most likely scenario, but it CAN still be utilized to produce excess energy (in the spirit of "compreture")... because, for one thing, extra compreture will be the kind of "implosion" energy that Terry mentioned earlier, from reading Victor whats-his-name (won't try to spell it just now) In fact, just to complicate things, the Casimir is often repulsive when the media is spherical.... and the H2 moleucle is oblate, but closer to spherical than any other platonic solid. However, let's say that one has engineered a device with springs and coils so that a resonant compression-expansion regime exists at a certain fast frequency (probably ultrasonic with a very large bore to stroke ratio, and only a mm or so of diaphragm travel) - where once equilibrium has been reached, the mean distance between molecules is still always less than the Casimir threshold. Then of course, nothing unusual will happen, and the piston or diaphragm will not self-power. However if just past maximum expansion (bottom dead center) a very fast pulse of EM radiation is applied, such that the H2 molecules are jostled at their resonance for just enough time so that the Casimir threshold is reached temporarily, and this result in an extra *decrease,* not increase - in the Casimir enhanced dynamics - then this added decrease accentuates and powers the *compression stoke* for a large fraction of its excursion, by what can be best described as implosion. It upward enhanced momentum will take care of the rest. Maybe some of that wierd "implosion" talk we keep hearing about with hydrogen is not that far off from the truth - due to Casimir repulsion! I'm not saying this is actually what will happen - only that the Casimir is often repulsive with spherical objects. And just as the increases in pressure/volume is at a power-of-four law - so would be the decrease - so that normal ideal gas laws are overwhelmed - ESPECIALLY when the gas is operating above its inversion temperature and is very "mobile" such as H2 -(certainly even Helium would be too heavy for this as the stimulus must be very rapid). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 18:15:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6J1FAlf018438; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:15:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6J1F8se018406; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:15:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:15:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002f01c58bff$443ff250$d1037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:14:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C58BD5.5AC4D0B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C58BD5.5AC4D0B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002C_01C58BD5.5AC65750" ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C58BD5.5AC65750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Richard wrote.. >This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One fatalistic = and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good. Ed and Jed are correct stating this group should focus on science. = Cultural studies are a science. Allow me to correct my wording to.. One "rooted" in evil and one = "rooted" in good. The subject is the difference in cultures and my opinion the two = cultures differ because of religious doctrine. The analogy I drew regarding truck drivers came from a report by a = medical team from Texas Medical Center Houston returning from a summer = in Uganda Africa. They were overwhelmed by the suffering of the people = and their medical needs. The soldiers of dictator Ida Amin had raped and = infected a large segment of the women with AIDS, adding to an already = medical nightmare. One of the medical team overheard a native use the analogy to explain = the difference in the two cultures. I thought it profound in its = simplistic view. I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let = facts be submitted to a candid world ! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C58BD5.5AC65750 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
     
    Richard wrote..
     
    >This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One = fatalistic=20 and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good.
     
    Ed and Jed are correct stating this group should focus on science. = Cultural=20 studies are a science.

     Allow me to correct my  wording to.. One "rooted" in = evil=20 and one "rooted" in good.
     
     The subject is the difference in cultures and my opinion the = two=20 cultures differ because of religious doctrine.
     
    The analogy I drew regarding truck drivers came from a report by a = medical=20 team from Texas Medical Center Houston returning from a summer in Uganda = Africa.=20 They were overwhelmed by the suffering of the people and their medical = needs.=20 The soldiers of dictator Ida Amin had raped and infected a large segment = of the=20 women with AIDS, adding to an already medical nightmare.
    One of the medical team overheard a native use the analogy to = explain the=20 difference in the two cultures. I thought it profound in its simplistic=20 view.
     
    I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let = facts=20 be submitted to a candid world !
     
    Richard

     

    ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C58BD5.5AC65750-- ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C58BD5.5AC4D0B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002a01c58bff$4371a5d0$d1037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C58BD5.5AC4D0B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 18:39:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6J1dLjA001799; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:39:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6J1dGiw001757; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:39:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:39:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:37:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade In-reply-to: <002f01c58bff$443ff250$d1037841 xptower> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_nSlfZpjFXkm3s62rY38/gA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_nSlfZpjFXkm3s62rY38/gA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A culture of despair has displaced a culture of hope. Despair tends to foster a belief in fatalism. Now ask yourself what is the cause of despair. Harry RC Macaulay wrote: Richard wrote.. >This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One fatalistic and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good. Ed and Jed are correct stating this group should focus on science. Cultural studies are a science. Allow me to correct my wording to.. One "rooted" in evil and one "rooted" in good. The subject is the difference in cultures and my opinion the two cultures differ because of religious doctrine. The analogy I drew regarding truck drivers came from a report by a medical team from Texas Medical Center Houston returning from a summer in Uganda Africa. They were overwhelmed by the suffering of the people and their medical needs. The soldiers of dictator Ida Amin had raped and infected a large segment of the women with AIDS, adding to an already medical nightmare. One of the medical team overheard a native use the analogy to explain the difference in the two cultures. I thought it profound in its simplistic view. I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let facts be submitted to a candid world ! Richard --Boundary_(ID_nSlfZpjFXkm3s62rY38/gA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Toward the Next Crusade A culture of despair has displaced a culture of hope.
    Despair tends to foster a belief in fatalism.

    Now ask yourself what is the cause of despair.

    Harry


    RC Macaulay wrote:


    Richard wrote..

    >This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One fatalistic and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good.

    Ed and Jed are correct stating this group should focus on science. Cultural studies are a science.

    Allow me to correct my  wording to.. One "rooted" in evil and one "rooted" in good.

    The subject is the difference in cultures and my opinion the two cultures differ because of religious doctrine.

    The analogy I drew regarding truck drivers came from a report by a medical team from Texas Medical Center Houston returning from a summer in Uganda Africa. They were overwhelmed by the suffering of the people and their medical needs. The soldiers of dictator Ida Amin had raped and infected a large segment of the women with AIDS, adding to an already medical nightmare.
    One of the medical team overheard a native use the analogy to explain the difference in the two cultures. I thought it profound in its simplistic view.

    I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let facts be submitted to a candid world !

    Richard


    --Boundary_(ID_nSlfZpjFXkm3s62rY38/gA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 18 20:06:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6J358Up011168; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:05:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6J35594011128; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:05:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:05:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c58c0e$a3059510$5b037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:04:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C58BE4.B9B6DAA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <_3JrxB.A.rtC.g3G3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C58BE4.B9B6DAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Toward the Next CrusadeEvil is the root cause of despair. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Harry Veeder=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade A culture of despair has displaced a culture of hope. Despair tends to foster a belief in fatalism. Now ask yourself what is the cause of despair.=20 Harry RC Macaulay wrote: Richard wrote.. >This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One = fatalistic and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good. Ed and Jed are correct stating this group should focus on science. = Cultural studies are a science. Allow me to correct my wording to.. One "rooted" in evil and one = "rooted" in good. The subject is the difference in cultures and my opinion the two = cultures differ because of religious doctrine. The analogy I drew regarding truck drivers came from a report by a = medical team from Texas Medical Center Houston returning from a summer = in Uganda Africa. They were overwhelmed by the suffering of the people = and their medical needs. The soldiers of dictator Ida Amin had raped and = infected a large segment of the women with AIDS, adding to an already = medical nightmare. One of the medical team overheard a native use the analogy to = explain the difference in the two cultures. I thought it profound in its = simplistic view. I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let = facts be submitted to a candid world ! Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C58BE4.B9B6DAA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Toward the Next Crusade
    Evil is the root cause of = despair.
    Richard
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 Harry Veeder
    Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 = 9:37 PM
    Subject: Re: Toward the Next=20 Crusade

    A culture of despair has displaced a culture of=20 hope.
    Despair tends to foster a belief in fatalism.

    Now ask = yourself=20 what is the cause of despair.

    Harry


    RC Macaulay=20 wrote:


    Richard wrote..

    >This simple analogy is the=20 essence of the two cultures. One fatalistic and one hopeful. One = based on=20 evil and one on good.

    Ed and Jed are correct stating this = group=20 should focus on science. Cultural studies are a = science.

    Allow me to=20 correct my  wording to.. One "rooted" in evil and one "rooted" = in=20 good.

    The subject is the difference in cultures and my = opinion the=20 two cultures differ because of religious doctrine.

    The = analogy I drew=20 regarding truck drivers came from a report by a medical team from = Texas=20 Medical Center Houston returning from a summer in Uganda Africa. = They were=20 overwhelmed by the suffering of the people and their medical needs. = The=20 soldiers of dictator Ida Amin had raped and infected a large segment = of the=20 women with AIDS, adding to an already medical nightmare.
    One of = the=20 medical team overheard a native use the analogy to explain the = difference in=20 the two cultures. I thought it profound in its simplistic = view.

    I=20 will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let = facts be=20 submitted to a candid world=20 !

    Richard


    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C58BE4.B9B6DAA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 01:31:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6J8VNtD005720; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:31:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6J8VHru005684; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:31:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:31:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050719083104.009baf30 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:31:04 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:04 pm 18/07/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Re: Toward the Next Crusade Evil is the root cause of despair. >Richard It certainly is, Richard. Unfortunately we live in a world which has lost its belief in the existence of evil in spite of all the evidence provided, not only by the evils of the last century (nazism, communism, etc.) but also by the evils of this, one of which (African barbarism) you described. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 05:16:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JCFhTc024112; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:15:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JCFfJi024096; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:15:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:15:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=e63Ix28Wrre1ADc1Fqvkniu0NKrxfskUmZ/wK//IGCXbxbLXOgiKbndG8y8gyAYC; Message-ID: <410-220057219111557130 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Springs/ Magnets /Casimir and Victor's implosion Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:15:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405741f1c27b45e19b180d5984ce49a3a7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > As mentioned, the Casimir force comes into play at a certain > distance 2-10 nm, and the normal kinetic energy of a gas molecule > can be increased or decreased by it (as the Casimir is not always > attractive). > > In fact, just to complicate things, the Casimir is often repulsive > when the media is spherical.... and the H2 molecule is oblate, but > closer to spherical than any other platonic solid. > Two colliding baseballs will flatten out if you slam them together hard enough, Jones. Same flattening happens for opposing electrostatic or magnetic fields,too. Most likely the Casimir Force is responsible for "QM Tunneling" hence, thermonuclear fusion. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Jones Beene wrote:
    >
    > As mentioned, the Casimir force comes into play at a certain
    > distance 2-10 nm, and the normal kinetic energy of a gas molecule
    > can be increased or decreased by it (as the Casimir is not always
    > attractive).
    >
    > In fact, just to complicate things, the Casimir is often repulsive
    > when the media is spherical.... and the H2 molecule is oblate, but
    > closer to spherical than any other platonic solid.
    >
    Two colliding baseballs will flatten out if you slam them together hard enough, Jones.
     
    Same flattening happens for opposing electrostatic or magnetic fields,too. 
     
    Most likely the Casimir Force is responsible for "QM Tunneling" hence, thermonuclear fusion.
     
    Frederick
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 07:53:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JEr21v004076; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:53:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JEqxMA004029; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:52:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:52:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:51:50 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade In-reply-to: <000c01c58c0e$a3059510$5b037841 xptower> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_CoXRijAKQnrNbMZKMQJq9g)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_CoXRijAKQnrNbMZKMQJq9g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT So ends your foray into cultural studies. Harry RC Macaulay wrote: Evil is the root cause of despair. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade A culture of despair has displaced a culture of hope. Despair tends to foster a belief in fatalism. Now ask yourself what is the cause of despair. Harry RC Macaulay wrote: Richard wrote.. >This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One fatalistic and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good. Ed and Jed are correct stating this group should focus on science. Cultural studies are a science. Allow me to correct my wording to.. One "rooted" in evil and one "rooted" in good. The subject is the difference in cultures and my opinion the two cultures differ because of religious doctrine. The analogy I drew regarding truck drivers came from a report by a medical team from Texas Medical Center Houston returning from a summer in Uganda Africa. They were overwhelmed by the suffering of the people and their medical needs. The soldiers of dictator Ida Amin had raped and infected a large segment of the women with AIDS, adding to an already medical nightmare. One of the medical team overheard a native use the analogy to explain the difference in the two cultures. I thought it profound in its simplistic view. I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let facts be submitted to a candid world ! Richard --Boundary_(ID_CoXRijAKQnrNbMZKMQJq9g) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Toward the Next Crusade So ends your foray into cultural studies.

    Harry

    RC Macaulay wrote:

    Evil is the root cause of despair.
    Richard
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Harry Veeder <mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>  
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com
    Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:37 PM
    Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade

    A culture of despair has displaced a culture of hope.
    Despair tends to foster a belief in fatalism.

    Now ask yourself what is the cause of despair.

    Harry


    RC Macaulay wrote:


    Richard wrote..

    >This simple analogy is the essence of the two cultures. One fatalistic and one hopeful. One based on evil and one on good.

    Ed and Jed are correct stating this group should focus on science. Cultural studies are a science.

    Allow me to correct my  wording to.. One "rooted" in evil and one "rooted" in good.

    The subject is the difference in cultures and my opinion the two cultures differ because of religious doctrine.

    The analogy I drew regarding truck drivers came from a report by a medical team from Texas Medical Center Houston returning from a summer in Uganda Africa. They were overwhelmed by the suffering of the people and their medical needs. The soldiers of dictator Ida Amin had raped and infected a large segment of the women with AIDS, adding to an already medical nightmare.
    One of the medical team overheard a native use the analogy to explain the difference in the two cultures. I thought it profound in its simplistic view.

    I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let facts be submitted to a candid world !

    Richard




    --Boundary_(ID_CoXRijAKQnrNbMZKMQJq9g)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 08:19:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JFITpc020244; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:18:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JFIGj0020120; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:18:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:18:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=hYSXr4Y8bBqMUji3Bg96DtAFZdGPaoujBfi3WYDzGfKF7T+fNgJiqcyYFNA6X+Jk; Message-ID: <410-22005721914188340 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:18:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940169b825fb1373f41c9adf0513f3c9764350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.137 Resent-Message-ID: <6SypeB.A.N6E.3mR3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII RC Macaulay wrote: > > I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let facts be submitted to a candid world ! > > Richard Fine! Do it on some chat room, not on this list. I'm not about to make a donation to Bill Beaty to listen to your crap or any other way off topic Bovine Feces. Vortex-l was a Think Tank- knowledge pool now it's turned into a Drunk Tank-cesspool pool that is driving away the intelligent contributors. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    RC Macaulay wrote:
    >
    > I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let facts be submitted to a candid world !
    >
    > Richard
     
    Fine! Do it on some chat room, not on this list.
     
    I'm not about to make a donation to Bill Beaty to listen to your crap
    or any other way off topic Bovine Feces.
     
    Vortex-l was a Think Tank- knowledge pool  now it's turned into a Drunk Tank-cesspool pool
    that is driving away the intelligent contributors.  
     
    Frederick
     
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 08:49:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JFmusa004130; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:49:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JFmsbY004117; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:48:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:48:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050719110303.0395d0d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:47:36 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade In-Reply-To: <002f01c58bff$443ff250$d1037841 xptower> References: <002f01c58bff$443ff250$d1037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6JFmhKH003955 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >The analogy I drew regarding truck drivers came from a report by a medical >team from Texas Medical Center Houston returning from a summer in Uganda >Africa. Was that an analogy or a statement of fact? As an analogy it may be valid, albeit overblown, but I very much doubt that actual truck drivers anywhere in the world behave this way. If you are asserting they do, you should present some evidence. It should not be hard to find: third world automotive accidents and fatalities have been extensively researched by the WHO and many other organizations. This reminds me of a statement in the Atlanta Journal & Constitution op-ed page today. A State Representative wrote about the problems of immigrants in the U.K. who do not join European society. Then he described the U.S.: "Immigration today has a different twist than when many of our ancestors came to America in the early 20th century. Today's newcomers ­ whether legal or illegal ­ often resist assimilation. They prefer living in separate communities . . ." Okay, that is plausible. It might be true. But the writer presents no evidence for it, so as far as we can tell it is mere opinion. He should have said something like: "according to a study from XYX" or "based on high school test records from the last 50 years" or -- at least -- "it is my impression having toured these communities that . . ." If he does not have any evidence, he should not say it. If cold fusion has taught us anything, it is that the world has suffered long enough from people who spout the first thing that pops into their heads and jump to conclusions about subjects they know nothing about. Furthermore, how does this guy know what immigrant communities were like in the early 20th century? Does he know insular they were, how often immigrants returned to the mother country, or how often adult immigrants learned English? I have read enough books and personal accounts of that era to know that many commonly accepted notions about 20th century immigrant society are stereotypes, and reality was complicated. Furthermore, whatever happens to adults in today's communities, the outcome and attitudes of their children is likely to be different. The U.S. is not Europe. That is the key difference between academic science and ordinary life: unsupported opinions do not count. You have to have quantitative facts and valid reasoning. Of course "facts" may be incorrect, especially in a fuzzy area like social science. But you have to make an effort to marshal facts. >One of the medical team overheard a native use the analogy to explain the >difference in the two cultures. I thought it profound in its simplistic view. Okay, we agree it is simplistic. Let me point out that people can be racist fools bigoted against their own societies. I have heard Japanese people describe their own culture as "imitative" more times than I care to remember. There is a grain of truth to that, but it ain't profound. Having said that, I certainly agree with the many experts who say Moslem society is in crisis because they reject modernity and science. Experts agree that irrationality and fatalism are a problem. We suffer from the same syndrome in the U.S., but they are worse off. My point yesterday was that their belief system once supported a vibrant, progressive scientific culture, and there is no reason to think they cannot return to that tradition. >I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let facts >be submitted to a candid world ! What facts? Your views plus 60 cents will get you a Hershey bar in the candy vending machine downstairs. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 08:54:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JFsEuQ006536; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:54:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JFsBeS006511; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:54:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:54:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Springs/ Magnets /Casimir and Victor's implosion Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:50:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050719155043.XQPP714.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <3zeX_D.A.plB.jIS3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Maybe some of that wierd "implosion" talk we keep hearing about > with hydrogen is not that far off from the truth - due to Casimir > repulsion! Schauberger's implosion motor is the fourth one on the list: http://www.frank.germano.com/vortexscience.htm#D His UFO is quite interesting: http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/repulsin/repulsin2.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 10:03:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JH2d3A012495; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:02:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JH2WR5012410; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:02:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:02:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DD3214.3000607 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:02:12 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: [OT] Sweating is inefficient. So, what's better? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (This is OT because it's about getting rid of energy ... not about creating or finding more energy...) Some time back, someone (Jed?) mentioned that sweating is a very inefficient way to keep cool. Certainly, if we look at the range over which homeothermy can be maintained, that seems to be true: By use of internal heating, homeothermic animals regularly function in environments that are much, much colder than their internal temperature, but so far as I know none of them can function for extended periods in an environment which is more than slightly warmer than their internal temperature, save by shutting down all unnecessary activity and just concentrating on avoiding being cooked. Typical operating ranges seem to be on the order of (core-temperature - 90 degrees F) to perhaps (core-temperature + 15 degrees F). But I also can't think of any creature that cools itself by any means except these two: a) Letting cooler surroundings carry off heat from a body that is, overall, warmer than the surroundings. b) Getting wet, and letting the evaporating water carry off the heat from a body that may be slightly cooler than its surroundings. Human sweat, of course, is in category (b), along with the kangaroos who lick their front legs, the dog who pants and sheds heat from his tongue (and nose), and myriad other creatures. Rabbits, pigs, elephants, and (maybe!) dimetredons seem to favor (a), just to name a few. But I'm left wondering if there's any other strategy used to keep cool. Does anyone know of an animal that has a technique for dumping heat into warmer surroundings that isn't just a variant on getting wet? In particular, are there any examples of heat pumps in the natural world? I.e., is there any animal (or plant!) which can actively raise its _skin_ temperature above its _core_ temperature in order to dump heat more effectively? Is there _any_ homeotherm that can survive while immersed in water which is warmer than its maximum tolerable core temperature? (I mean "immersed but able to breath", of course!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 10:36:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JHaGQg031869; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:36:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JHaCh2031789; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:36:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:36:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=JUaQM8n6f5HLzkDpQIIyghhwagiw1VddGAsTZDaExTtoxVCNQxIGxVTsrtWL7FYi; Message-ID: <410-22005721916351080 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: [OT] Sweating is inefficient. So, what's better? Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:35:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94001acba58f4d0b72eed9121e598f95a16350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.130 Resent-Message-ID: <5V5Nz.A.pwH.LoT3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > (This is OT because it's about getting rid of energy ... not about > creating or finding more energy...) > > Some time back, someone (Jed?) mentioned that sweating is a very > inefficient way to keep cool. > >Sweating is inefficient. So, what's better? > Blowing off steam, or thermal radiation (if your environs are cold enough. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
    >
    > (This is OT because it's about getting rid of energy ... not about
    > creating or finding more energy...)
    >
    > Some time back, someone (Jed?) mentioned that sweating is a very
    > inefficient way to keep cool.
    >
    >Sweating is inefficient. So, what's better?
    >
    Blowing off steam,  or thermal radiation (if your environs are cold enough.  :-)
     
    Frederick
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 10:37:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JHbRSm000332; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:37:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JHbP1F000304; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:37:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:37:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050719131509.03954930 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:32:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [OT] Sweating is inefficient. So, what's better? In-Reply-To: <42DD3214.3000607 pobox.com> References: <42DD3214.3000607 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >(This is OT because it's about getting rid of energy ... not about >creating or finding more energy...) That's on topic. >Some time back, someone (Jed?) mentioned that sweating is a very >inefficient way to keep cool. I read that years ago in a book on physiology and energy. It said that panting is more efficient than sweating because it removes more water in the vapor phase, rather than as drops of warm water. It is a shame we cannot pant, but we hyperventilate. Humans in their natural state are particular bad at losing heat by sweat, because unlike horses (for example) we have no hair or fur to catch the droplets and hold them near the skin. They often fall right off onto the ground. So the book recommended that people doing heavy exercise wear a light cotton shirt. The farmers I know in the U.S. and Japan tell me: "don't go out without a hat; you'll get sunstroke." They also recommend salt pills. To cool down quickly when they rest, they hold their wrists in cold water in a stream or lake. In southwest Japan, which is subtropical, farmers traditionally take a siesta during the summer months. They rest, sleep or watch soap operas on TV for an hour or two during the hottest time of day, around 3:00 p.m. (standard time). They do the heaviest work from 5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. >In particular, are there any examples of heat pumps in the natural >world? I.e., is there any animal (or plant!) which can actively raise its >_skin_ temperature above its _core_ temperature in order to dump heat more >effectively? I doubt it. It would be neater if one of them could do cellular endothermic CF! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 10:47:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JHlDMa007590; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:47:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JHlAXq007546; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:47:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:47:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050719174658.009b39a4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:46:58 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Spurred on by a personal e-mail from a Vort I have now twigged what is happening in sonoluminescence and could kick myself for having taken so long about it ;-) Just as there are two ways of skinning a cat there are also two ways of exciting an electron. The numerator way. Increasing the electron energy whilst keeping the environmental energy unchanged The denominator way. Keeping the electron energy constant but reducing the environmental energy. In cavitation the environmental energy is being reduced. The absolute Beta-atmosphere (B-a) pressure within the cavity is dropping to very high pF values. Thus the energy of an electron RELATIVE TO ITS BETA-ATMOSPHERE ENVIRONMENT is increasing even though its absolute value is staying the same. When the cavitation bubble collapses the electron energy relative to its B-a environment drops and it is this drop that is responsible for the flash of light emitted. All very simple, really, when you can see it. 8-) Putting some arbitrary numbers on thing we have, ====================================================== Numerator change ------------------------------------------------------ 1020 ^---electron---v 1000 ^ v ^ v 980 ^ v ^ v 960 --electron----^ v--electron + FLASH 940 920 ---------Beta-atmosphere pressure-------------- 900 ====================================================== ====================================================== Denominator change ------------------------------------------------------ 980 960 --electron ---------------------electron + FLASH 940 920 ---B-a press.--v ^---B-a press.---- v ^ 900 v ^ v ^ 880 v ^ v--B-a press.--^ 860 ====================================================== How can I possibly sound so damned confident that this is correct? Well, it's the same kind of anomalous behaviour we found with concrete when we created artificial increases in the B-a pressure with water and air. It will be interesting [and not a little amusing ;-) ], to see who else cottons on to the - "Secret of Sonoluminescence". 8^) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 12:25:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JJPDxs022969; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:25:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JJPB2v022943; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:25:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:25:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=saohfenfAcDCXZjQ1nmGP5ZUkXmLWDFbr9XDMxuiuoRWYyfe8y1rdAJqP9pP6ytO; Message-ID: <410-220057219182520260 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [OT] Sweating is inefficient. So, what's better? Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:25:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e72e7e14114c0bbc14f80de1130cad15350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jed Rothwell wrote: > > That's on topic. > > I read that years ago in a book on physiology and energy. It said that > panting is more efficient than sweating because it removes more water in > the vapor phase, rather than as drops of warm water. It is a shame we > cannot pant, but we hyperventilate. > According to this Psychrometric Chart: http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm If at 1,000 ft above sea level your lungs are at 98.6 F dry bulb and 95 F wet bulb 87.3 % RH, 64.84 BTU/lb, 260.9 grains/lb of air aspirated, and the air temperature is 100 F dry bulb 98.6 F wet bulb, 95.13 % RH, 71.03 BTU/lb, 259.48 grains/lb of air intake, you should heat up when you pant. but, you will lose a little bit of water. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Jed Rothwell wrote:
     
    >
    > That's on topic.
    >
    > I read that years ago in a book on physiology and energy. It said that
    > panting is more efficient than sweating because it removes more water in
    > the vapor phase, rather than as drops of warm water. It is a shame we
    > cannot pant, but we hyperventilate.
    >
    According to this Psychrometric Chart:
     
          http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm       
     
    If at 1,000 ft above sea level your lungs are at 98.6 F  dry bulb and 95 F wet bulb
     
    87.3 % RH, 64.84 BTU/lb, 260.9 grains/lb of air aspirated,
     
    and the air temperature is 100 F dry bulb 98.6 F wet bulb, 95.13 % RH, 71.03 BTU/lb, 259.48 grains/lb of air intake,
    you should heat up when you pant. but,  you will lose a little bit of water.   :-)
     
    Frederick
     
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 13:27:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JKQmMU014821; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:26:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JKQkm2014800; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:26:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:26:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404j6$1505525 mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,300,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1241683013:sNHT17012052" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: MAHG - The European Vacation Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:26:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2cb6O.A.GnD.FIW3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since the JLN/MAHG staff is apparently out on vacation, does anyone know how long they will likely be out of the office? It's my understanding that many european countries have significantly better vacation plans than what most private & commercial enterprises dole out to their employees within the USA, even after 15 - 20 years of dedicated service. I understand six weeks of "european vacation" per year is common. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 15:02:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JM1e8b002180; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:01:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JM1csi002157; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:01:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:01:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAHG - The European Vacation Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:01:09 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <4404j6$1505525 mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4404j6$1505525 mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507200001.10343.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2005 22:26 schrieb orionworks charter.net: > It's my understanding that many european countries have significantly > better vacation plans than what most private & commercial enterprises dole > out to their employees within the USA, even after 15 - 20 years of > dedicated service. I understand six weeks of "european vacation" per year > is common. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com This is currently correct for some of the European nations, but unfortunately, not all. In general, a higher educational standard, socialized medicine, healthier food, higher minumum wage, and many, many other benefits (like great beer) were the statutory norm in the wealthier European countries. GATT, NAFTA, pressure from the US controlled World Bank, and the recent acceptance of many lesser developed countries have forced an erosion in the overall quality of the lifestyle for many people in the original EU. Many people still enjoy a six week vacation here, but with the creation of "mini jobs" (part-time, quite often for 1 Euro per hour, no benefits), in Germany for example, the percentage of people enjoying those 6 week vacations is lower than say, 15 or 20 years ago. I have yet to re-visit France this time around so I cannot comment on what is happening there, but the gap between the classes here in Germany has noticably widened in recent years, although still not nearly as badly as it has in the United States. Hopefully, this situation will improve over time as the newly accepted EU members develop their own infrastructures. A lot depends also on how the development of China affects the world market for products and services, and hopefully, a re-discovery by the Europeans of the simple truth that all economies are engineered - not exactly a tenet of the global free marketplace advocates. This was something that used to be common knowledge here, but seems to have been forgotten by many. The Europeans have enough of a population base now, that they don't have to compete globally, and can structure their society and economy simultaneously more democratically and socially. In other words, they don't have to live entirely by free marketplace rules. Personally, I would still prefer to live most anywhere in Europe than to live most anywhere in the US (and not just because of the beer). The Europeans seem to have a more developed sense of fairness, and an understanding that life is about much more than just chasing a buck. I remain optimistic about the future of Europe, and hope that the institution of the 6 week vacation, as well as the numerous other benefits that nearly all Europeans used to enjoy quickly become a reality again for everyone. They are very healthy things. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 16:09:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6JN95pe031525; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:09:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6JN9313031499; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:09:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:09:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c58cb6$d0ad6c10$52037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Fw: Toward the Next Crusade Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:08:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C58C8C.E75BA460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C58C8C.E75BA460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: fjsparber earthlink.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 11:57 AM Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade Calm down Fred. You make a valuable contribution to Vortex and your = ideas are both inspiring and thought provoking.=20 At the risk of being banned from the group, permit me to state that = personal recriminations are not necessary to make one's point. The = health and vitality of the group is enhanced by the different views = expressed provided they act to teach and provoke thought. Disagreements = should be candid without being discordant. Forgive me if I have offended your sense of propriety in my views. They = may not be your views..but they are candid. There are other that also make a donation to Bill Beaty. My views often = differ from his , however, I truly enjoy the discourse. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade RC Macaulay wrote: >=20 > I will not make an apology for expressing my views on cultures. Let = facts be submitted to a candid world ! >=20 > Richard Fine! Do it on some chat room, not on this list. I'm not about to make a donation to Bill Beaty to listen to your crap or any other way off topic Bovine Feces. Vortex-l was a Think Tank- knowledge pool now it's turned into a = Drunk Tank-cesspool pool that is driving away the intelligent contributors. =20 Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C58C8C.E75BA460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: RC = Macaulay
    Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 11:57 AM
    Subject: Re: Toward the Next Crusade

    Calm down Fred. You make a valuable = contribution to=20 Vortex and your ideas are both inspiring and thought provoking.=20
    At the risk of being banned from the group, = permit me to=20 state that personal recriminations are not necessary to make one's = point.=20 The health and vitality of the group is enhanced by the different views=20 expressed provided they act to teach and provoke thought. Disagreements = should=20 be candid without being discordant.
    Forgive me if I have offended your sense of = propriety in=20 my views. They may not be your views..but they are candid.
    There are other that also make a donation to = Bill Beaty.=20 My views often differ from his , however, I truly enjoy the=20 discourse.
    Richard
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 Frederick Sparber
    Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 = 9:18=20 AM
    Subject: Re: Toward the Next=20 Crusade

    RC Macaulay wrote:
    >
    > I will not make an apology for expressing my views on = cultures. Let=20 facts be submitted to a candid world !
    >
    > Richard
     
    Fine! Do it on some chat room, not on this list.
     
    I'm not about to make a donation to Bill Beaty to listen to your=20 crap
    or any other way off topic Bovine Feces.
     
    Vortex-l was a Think Tank- knowledge pool  now it's = turned into=20 a Drunk Tank-cesspool pool
    that is driving away the intelligent contributors.   =
     
    Frederick
     
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C58C8C.E75BA460-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 19:20:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6K2KHdg014185; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:20:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6K2KE29014161; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:20:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:20:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:20:09 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Off topic here: religion and politics In-Reply-To: <002f01c58bff$443ff250$d1037841 xptower> Message-ID: References: <002f01c58bff$443ff250$d1037841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, RC Macaulay wrote: > Ed and Jed are correct stating this group should focus on science. > Cultural studies are a science. Perhaps you missed the fact that vortex-L is a Cold Fusion forum first, and secondly a "taboo physics" forum? Most other topics belong on vortexB-L, which has no rules. Please read the vortex-L website which details the purpose of this group: http://amasci.com/weird/wvort.html http://amasci.com/weird/wmore.html In general, politics, religion, and "cultural studies" are totally off topic here. We tolerate occasional discussions, especially if they regard the politics of science and intellectual suppression. But if they cause any complaints, then the ones who brought politics/religion into this forum are in the wrong, and either must immediately drop the subject or move the discussion to vortexB-L. Repeat offenders who cause continuing complaints regarding religion or politics take warning: I always fix this typical problem by moving their subscription to vortexB-L only, and banning them from vortex-L. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 19 20:47:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6K3kse2019108; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:46:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6K3kogH019070; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:46:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:46:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050720034637.009bfdac pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:46:37 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the previous post in this thread I neglected to consider the possible effect of hysteresis or ratchetting of the sonoluminescent process. Such a process is illustrated in the modified "Denominator change" table below. ====================================================== Denominator change ------------------------------------------------------ 980 960 --electron ----v v 940 v---------------electron + FLASH 920 ---B-a press.--v ^---B-a press.---- v ^ 900 v ^ v ^ 880 v ^ v--B-a press.--^ 860 ====================================================== It would mean that the water (or acetone) is left in an altered state. I suppose one might describe such water as hydrinated water by analogy with hydrino formation. It would be interesting to carefully examine water which has been subjected to long term sonoluminescent cavitation to see whether it exhibited any different properties from a control specimen. Conceivably, in the limit, one could hydrinate all the water in the apparatus. If it proved possible to trigger the release of the hydrinated energy in a chain reaction one would effectively have a high explosive water bomb. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 01:17:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6K8HW0W029914; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:17:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6K8HU7O029895; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:17:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:17:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:17:17 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <2.2.32.20050720034637.009bfdac pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050720034637.009bfdac pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507201017.17506.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Am Mittwoch, 20. Juli 2005 05:46 schrieb Grimer: > Conceivably, in the limit, one could hydrinate all the > water in the apparatus. If it proved possible to trigger > the release of the hydrinated energy in a chain reaction > one would effectively have a high explosive water bomb. > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer Moin Frank! Cavitation has been studied intensively by small groups for over 100 years now. Schaeffer and Griggs ran closed loop systems for heating buildings that cavitated the water repeatedly for years without being changed out. I think that if there were any possibility for the water to gain enough energy that it would be explosive, it would have happened by now. With my luck, it would have happened to me! I do have some more comments and questions about your theory, as I find it interesting and worth exploring, but I would like to look up some references first, and my boss just got back from his vacation, so I expect I will be very busy here for a while. He looks quite refreshed. Oh no... Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 01:26:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6K8Q9DE000376; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:26:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6K8Q7Sa000358; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:26:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:26:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD10E caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: MAHG & Spring-Magnets Casimir Over-Unity Simulator Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:15:21 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Original Message ----- Mounting two magnets (separated) inside a non-magnetic coil spring (compression) so that the 1/R^4 attractive force can aid in compressing it when it's dropped from a height sufficient to cause it to compress slightly (thermal collision force aided by the Casimir force) should show some interesting bounce effects, albeit the coil spring is a linear device as opposed to the 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between the atomic nuclei. The bounce height compared to that of a similar spring with non-magnetic slugs of the same mass as the magnets should illustrate the point. --------- Magnets? I just recieved a link to a magnetic engine, looks interesting. http://cycclone.com/welcome/page2.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 04:36:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KBZuPn009369; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:36:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KBZrAu009338; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:35:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:35:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050720113544.009bd4e8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:35:44 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:17 am 20/07/2005 +0200, you wrote: >Am Mittwoch, 20. Juli 2005 05:46 schrieb Grimer: > >> Conceivably, in the limit, one could hydrinate all the >> water in the apparatus. If it proved possible to trigger >> the release of the hydrinated energy in a chain reaction >> one would effectively have a high explosive water bomb. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Frank Grimer >Moin Frank! > >Cavitation has been studied intensively by small groups for over 100 years >now. Schaeffer and Griggs ran closed loop systems for heating buildings that >cavitated the water repeatedly for years without being changed out. I think >that if there were any possibility for the water to gain enough energy that >it would be explosive, it would have happened by now. You're probably right, though I suppose it's possible that the Schaeffer and Griggs systems were "burning" the "explosive" continuously and it needs special conditions to accumulate it. >With my luck, it would have happened to me! It happened to P&F with their cc. of palladium. I'm amazed they never followed that one up. There's nothing so convincing to the layman as a nice big bang. Mizuno might have achieved on too if he had let his disks cook a bit longer. > I do have some more comments and questions about your theory, as I find it > interesting and worth exploring,... I always develop my own ideas on a subject before looking up the previous work (which I am now doing - with the aid of a useful Wiki article on sonoluminescence). Being an engineer I am not inhibited by an obsession to study the literature before thinking about a problem. I like to consider other people's ideas after I have seen the answer myself. > .....but I would like to look up some references > first, and my boss just got back from his vacation, so I expect I will be > very busy here for a while. He looks quite refreshed. Oh no... Good luck. But I'm sure you can manipulate him as effectively as I used to manipulate mine. ;-) Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 06:24:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KDNnCM024706; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:23:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KDNlX0024682; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:23:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:23:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: 21 cm Source Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 9:23:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720132326.JNHY8378.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This guy bought a kit: http://www.seti.net/SETINet/Engineering/Hardware/Test%20Equipment/Test%20Equipment.htm#WeakSignalSource or http://tinyurl.com/csjdk for testing those homemade SETI receivers. It doesn't state the power, however. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 07:04:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KE44xr012697; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:04:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KE3xlY012633; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:03:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:03:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c58d33$d4b298d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050720132326.JNHY8378.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: 21 cm Source Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:03:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4Jq0F.A.KFD.Pnl3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Terry, > for testing those homemade SETI receivers. It doesn't state the > power, however. By blowing up the graph it looks like the power is 14.5 dBm and using the conversion graph on http://www.ictp.trieste.it/~radionet/2001_school/docs/other/dbm_chart.pdf this works out to about only 25-30 mW. Of course that low output could possibly be used for driving the "gate" for a power GaAs FET, or could it? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 07:41:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KEelig001397; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:40:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KEegHJ001312; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:40:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:40:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c58d37$f1342010$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:33:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those wanting to start off their Wednesday with a ROTFL knee-slapper, or at least a chuckle, check out Gary McKinnon's tale on: http://freeenergynews.com/ It is the lead story for today's date. You can't miss it if you are thinking.... hmmm,maybe....first runner-up in the Alfred E. Newman casting-call ? .... for the new "Mad" TV show.... or is it the Vulcan version of Mad....? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 07:55:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KEsTdO007587; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:54:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KEsOiq007553; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:54:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:54:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: 21 cm Source Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:49:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720144909.PRKS11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Of course that low output > could possibly be used for driving the "gate" for a power GaAs > FET, or could it? Yeah, but why reinvent the wheel? Here's an 8 W module with 50 dB of gain which uses about the same Vdc: http://www.empowerrf.com/docs/3028.doc A bit more linear than you would need. Gating becomes the issue (51 Hz switching) I don't know how much it costs either. Pssssst . . . don't tell the FCC ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 07:59:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KEwg1n009602; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:58:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KEwdRd009570; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:58:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:58:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:58:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720145824.PWEB11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > For those wanting to start off their Wednesday with a ROTFL > knee-slapper, or at least a chuckle, check out Gary McKinnon's > tale I know most on this list dismiss this sort of thing; but, you really should read his entire expose: http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1523143,00.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 08:11:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KFAXva017243; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:10:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KFAU0C017202; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:10:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:10:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720110556.0398f600 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:10:04 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Slate article on ethanol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An article about my bete noire: http://slate.com/id/2122961/ The article should have made some other important points. It said: "The ethanol lobby claims there's a 30 percent net gain in BTUs from ethanol made from corn." Even if that is true, it is still pathetic. You can achieve far better "gains" by other means. Also, it should have mentioned Pimentel's other points, such as the fact that corn is not a renewable resource. It is a method of strip mining topsoil and the destroying the water table. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 08:18:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KFHNI2020594; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:17:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KFHIDL020518; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:17:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:17:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720111405.0398ba10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:16:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wired article on Jahn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some issues and reactions similar to those of cold fusion: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68216,00.html I cannot judge, but some of this research seems impressive. It is statistical in nature and it has not been replicated elsewhere. That puts it in the same category as the top quark. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 08:30:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KFU7hB026787; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:30:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KF3Q5d012328; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:03:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:03:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: 21 cm Source Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:02:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720150255.PYPW11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-sIbmC.A.WAD.7em3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > Gating becomes the issue (51 Hz switching) It says "instantaneous" so, I suppose you could gate the supply voltage. (Depends on what the meaning of 'instantaneous' is is is. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 08:40:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KFe8BJ031579; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:40:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KFe5Jv031529; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:40:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:40:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:41:06 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 21 cm Source Message-ID: <15028203.1121852466 localhost> In-Reply-To: <20050720150255.PYPW11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20050720150255.PYPW11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========15038348==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <6GqqED.A.fsH.UBn3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --==========15038348========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Specs say "suitable for all forms of modulation".... and they rent them. Ron --On Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:02 AM -0400 Terry Blanton wrote: >> From: Terry Blanton > >> Gating becomes the issue (51 Hz switching) > > It says "instantaneous" so, I suppose you could gate the > supply voltage. (Depends on what the meaning of > 'instantaneous' is is is. > > > --==========15038348========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ArialSpecs say = "suitable for all forms of modulation".... and they rent = them. Ron --On Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:02 AM -0400 Terry Blanton = < wrote: >> From: Terry Blanton=20 >=20 >> Gating becomes the issue (51 Hz switching) >=20 > It says "instantaneous" so, I suppose you could gate the > supply voltage. (Depends on what the meaning of > 'instantaneous' is is is. >=20 >=20 > =20 --==========15038348==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 09:29:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KGSiw8026256; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:28:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KGSfCR026223; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:28:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:28:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002701c58d48$0e69bea0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050720145824.PWEB11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:28:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C58D0D.5FDF7B20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C58D0D.5FDF7B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Terry Blanton" =20 > you really should read his entire expose:=20 > http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1523143,00.html Ya gotta like this guy... I mean, geeze.... (to borrow from Sara Lee) ... nobody doesn't like = Alfred E.... And 70 years in the pokie, ha.... Given that the justice department has = already announced that the information Gary downloaded was not = classified, and he admits he was stoned much of the time, perhaps we can = assume that Nasa is really not overly concerned about his ZPE = "discoveries" getting into the wrong hands... they didn't go after Lazar = and he wasn't stoned (supposedly). Anyway Gary will soon become some = kind of mythical geek cult hero, no doubt about it, now that the US = government has described him as the "biggest military hacker" of all = time. Mover over David Lightman (Matthew Broderick)... and Think about = those endorsements.... He sounds perfect for the new Dell-Dude, doesn't he? ... and a stoner to = boot.... or maybe he could take over one of Kobe's lost sneaker ads... = (is it true that Kobe has signed on with Oil of Olay... ;-) Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C58D0D.5FDF7B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    ----- Original Message ----- =
    From: "Terry Blanton"  =
     
    > you really should read his entire=20 expose: 
    >     <= FONT=20 face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1523143,00.html
     
    Ya gotta like this guy...
     
    I mean, geeze.... (to borrow from = Sara Lee)=20 ... nobody doesn't like Alfred E....
     
    And 70 years in = the pokie,=20 ha.... Given that the justice department has already announced that the=20 information Gary downloaded was not classified, and he admits he was = stoned much=20 of the time, perhaps we can assume that Nasa is really not overly = concerned=20 about his ZPE "discoveries" getting into the wrong hands... they didn't = go after=20 Lazar and he wasn't stoned (supposedly). Anyway Gary will soon = become some=20 kind of mythical geek cult hero, no doubt about it, now that the US = government=20 has described him as the "biggest military hacker" of all time. Mover = over David=20 Lightman (Matthew Broderick)... and  Think about those=20 endorsements....
     
    He sounds perfect for the new = Dell-Dude, doesn't=20 he? ... and a stoner to boot.... or maybe he could take over one of = Kobe's lost=20 sneaker ads... (is it true that Kobe has signed on with Oil of Olay...=20 ;-)
     
    Jones
    ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C58D0D.5FDF7B20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 09:37:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KGaqjI030025; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:36:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KGanEJ029987; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:36:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:36:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003701c58d49$2f45a6b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050720150255.PYPW11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: 21 cm Source Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:36:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Gating becomes the issue (51 Hz switching) > > It says "instantaneous" so, I suppose you could gate the supply > voltage. Yes that is what I was thinking. "Depends on what the meaning of 'instantaneous' is is is" and if it si FTL it would be: ...is is is 'instantaneous' BTW Frederick Sparber sent me this list of frequency allocations: http://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/FA.shtml Notice what is called "Sub coms"... I don't think that is the hotline for the deli... Nah... wonder how close Naudin's lab is to one of those big submarine LF transmission fields? Actually there is on off a hiking trail near me, about 5 acres of wires, looking fairly haphazardly arranged, and ours works at 45 Hz but do you think in France it could be 51 Hz? That would explain why he is using 51 instead of 50.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 09:50:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KGo7K1002993; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:50:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KGo58d002966; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:50:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:50:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:49:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050720164950.RXYA11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <2EdhQD.A.7t.8Co3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > I cannot judge, but some of this research seems impressive. I have been following Dean Radin for almost a decade now. Actually, he used to work in the Princeton Psychology department and had a falling out over his research. Where he now works, the Institute of Noetic Science: http://www.noetic.org/ was founded by Astronaut Edgar Mitchell as a result of an epiphany while in space. He described it as a overwhelming feeling of "connectedness" with the universe. One of Radin's most impressive experiments involved precognition: http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20040715-000008.html "We may be highly skilled at detecting and connecting anomalous events, but that doesn’t help us understand events so spectacular that they are readily noticed—but not easily explained. “I have no argument with people who suggest that very unusual events happen every so often and have no intrinsic significance,” says Dean Radin, author of The Conscious Universe: The Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena,and senior scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences in Petaluma, California, which studies psychic phenomena. “I just don’t accept that this explanation is correct 100 percent of the time.” For instance, in laboratory studies he’s found that people seem to know when they’re going to view upsetting photos. A measurement of electrical activity on their skin rises before viewing disturbing photos randomly selected by a computer. The same changes do not occur before neutral or calming photos appear. “Science makes assumptions about the way things work, and yet we still understand so little. I’m willing to dance with the mystery without requiring the whole answer ahead of time,” says Radin." (The article also mentions Russell Targ, co-worker of Harold Puthoff at SRI. The character played by Harold Ramis in the 1984 film, "Ghostbusters", is allegedly modeled after Targ.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 10:25:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KHOqsT018199; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:25:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KHOpZj018185; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:24:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:24:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: 21 cm Source Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:24:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720172439.SPVR11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <6LfGo.A.FcE.ijo3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Nah... wonder how close Naudin's lab is to one of those big > submarine LF transmission fields? Actually there is on off a > hiking trail near me, about 5 acres of wires, looking fairly > haphazardly arranged, and ours works at 45 Hz but do you think in > France it could be 51 Hz? The BAUD rate is 50 bps but the frequency can vary greatly: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/scmp/part07.htm The French allegedly built one in Roshay: http://www.brojon.org/frontpage/bj1204.html but I can't seem to find that on any map. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 11:02:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KI1kFB004608; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:01:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KI1iGI004580; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:01:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:01:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DE9171.4080905 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:01:21 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: US military does ZPE References: <20050720145824.PWEB11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050720145824.PWEB11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: "Jones Beene" >> >> > > > >>For those wanting to start off their Wednesday with a ROTFL >>knee-slapper, or at least a chuckle, check out Gary McKinnon's >>tale >> >> > >I know most on this list dismiss this sort of thing; but, you really should read his entire expose: > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1523143,00.html > > I did. I really feel sorry for the guy. He made some dumb moves, but 70 years in the slammer?? Unless he lives to be 110 that's a life sentence. That's what they give murderers. A computer hacker is a burgler or a vandal, not a murderer (unless he sells the info to North Korea, of course -- then he's a spy). 70 years for stealing some files seems pretty heavy. But he _may_ have interfered with _some_ computer operations after (_after_, not before) 9/11. Ho hum. And his big "discovery" was that somewhere in the military establishment somebody thought the term "non-terrestrial officers" was a good description of some category which, you can be 99% sure, has nothing to do with any supposed secret space station. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 11:11:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KIAnb3008446; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:10:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KIAlsf008422; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:10:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:10:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720140549.03986510 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:10:22 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: US military does ZPE In-Reply-To: <42DE9171.4080905 pobox.com> References: <20050720145824.PWEB11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42DE9171.4080905 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >I did. I really feel sorry for the guy. He made some dumb moves, but 70 >years in the slammer?? That's unspeakable. The only people who should be punished are the ones who left the computers on line with no password. This guy performed a public service. >And his big "discovery" was that somewhere in the military establishment >somebody thought the term "non-terrestrial officers" was a good >description of some category which, you can be 99% sure, has nothing to do >with any supposed secret space station. My guess is they are members of the U.S. Space Command: the idiots who want to export war to the LaGrange points. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 11:42:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KIfsfe025022; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:42:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KIfqPQ024999; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:41:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:41:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DE9B32.7000902 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:42:58 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: US military does ZPE References: <20050720145824.PWEB11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42DE9171.4080905@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050720140549.03986510@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720140549.03986510 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> I did. I really feel sorry for the guy. He made some dumb moves, but >> 70 years in the slammer?? > > > That's unspeakable. The only people who should be punished are the ones > who left the computers on line with no password. This guy performed a > public service. Jed is absolutely right. A rational government would offer him, and any hacker that admitted breaking into a government computer, a job. This offer would create an active effort to break in, which would test the system. The successful hackers would then be employed to correct the system, thereby making the system stronger and removing them from the hacker ranks. Gradually, the system would become so hacker-proof that the "bad" hackers would lose interest. The present approach does nothing to protect the system from hackers who will never be caught because they work for other governments. But then, my approach would be called Liberal by the present government. Ed > > >> And his big "discovery" was that somewhere in the military >> establishment somebody thought the term "non-terrestrial officers" was >> a good description of some category which, you can be 99% sure, has >> nothing to do with any supposed secret space station. > > > My guess is they are members of the U.S. Space Command: the idiots who > want to export war to the LaGrange points. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 12:58:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KJwIxJ023806; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:58:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KJwGb7023788; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:58:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:58:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c58d65$5359bb10$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050720172439.SPVR11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Electricit=E9_de_France?= Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:57:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C58D2A.A4B782C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C58D2A.A4B782C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terry, =20 > The French allegedly built one in Roshay:=20 > http://www.brojon.org/frontpage/bj1204.html=20 > but I can't seem to find that on any map. Can't find that either,=20 but .... come to think of it, Naudin's main employer is or was:=20 EDF: Electricit=E9 de France URL: http://www.edf.fr/ a.. operator of all French Nuclear Power Plants I don't know where the MAHG tests are being run now ... and I had = previously written-off the coincidental connection with the French power = system being 50 Hz, especially since actually he is getting best results = at 51 Hz, not 50 Hz.... ....but is there any reason why, if the lab is in or near a power = station, and the MAHG tube were somehow picking up energy from a = transformer - that you would have that one Hertz shift? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C58D2A.A4B782C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Terry,
     
    > The French allegedly = built one in=20 Roshay: 
    >     http://www.brojon.org/frontpage/bj1204.html 
    > but I can't seem to find that on any = map.
     
    Can't find that either,
     
    but .... come to think of = it,  Naudin's main employer is or=20 was: 

    EDF: Electricit=E9 de France

    URL: http://www.edf.fr/

    • operator of all French Nuclear Power=20 Plants
     
    I don't know where the MAHG tests are = being run now=20 ... and I had previously written-off the coincidental connection with = the French=20 power system being 50 Hz, especially since actually he is getting best = results=20 at 51 Hz,  not 50 Hz....
     
    ....but is there any reason why, if the = lab is in=20 or near a power station, and the MAHG tube were somehow picking up = energy from a=20 transformer - that you would have that one Hertz shift?
     
    Jones
    ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C58D2A.A4B782C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 13:25:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KKOs25000755; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:24:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KKOq89000732; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:24:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:24:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Jones Beene" Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:50:52 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050720145824.PWEB11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <002701c58d48$0e69bea0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002701c58d48$0e69bea0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507201650.52492.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 20 July 2005 12:28, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > > > you really should read his entire expose: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1523143,00.html > > Ya gotta like this guy... > > I mean, geeze.... (to borrow from Sara Lee) ... nobody doesn't like Alfred > E.... > > And 70 years in the pokie, ha.... Given that the justice department has > already announced that the information Gary downloaded was not classified, > and he admits he was stoned much of the time, perhaps we can assume that > Nasa is really not overly concerned about his ZPE "discoveries" getting > into the wrong hands... they didn't go after Lazar and he wasn't stoned > (supposedly). Anyway Gary will soon become some kind of mythical geek cult > hero, no doubt about it, now that the US government has described him as > the "biggest military hacker" of all time. Mover over David Lightman > (Matthew Broderick)... and Think about those endorsements.... > > He sounds perfect for the new Dell-Dude, doesn't he? ... and a stoner to > boot.... or maybe he could take over one of Kobe's lost sneaker ads... (is > it true that Kobe has signed on with Oil of Olay... ;-) > > Jones yeah, maybe Kobe and Kate will get together for a debate like the old ones between G Gordon Liddy of Watergate fame and 'Baba Ram Dass" (a real name, honest....just don't say it too fast in mixed company). Only Kobe will have to really USE the stuff just like Broadway Joe did when he advertised the panty hose. Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 13:42:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KKg1U4007337; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:42:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KKfvRa007267; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:41:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:41:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:41:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720204144.WHBU11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > . . . you can be 99% sure, has nothing to > do with any supposed secret space station. Assuming he is lying, what would be his motive? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 13:45:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KKiWLm009788; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:44:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KKiUob009737; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:44:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:44:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003a01c58d6b$c8967d90$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050720172439.SPVR11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <002101c58d65$5359bb10$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Electricit=E9_de_France?= Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:43:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C58D31.0F969D50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C58D31.0F969D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lo and behold: http://www.edf.fr/download.php4?coe_i_id=3D54806 It turns out that the French system is variable between 49-51 Hz and = that the higher number would be expected when the plant is running at = thremal maximum... in l'ete, shall we say... That is logical - your turbines are spinning at the maximimum = permissible rate and this jacks up the frequency slightly.... Still do not think (or hope not anyway) that this is the explanation for = the excess energy...unless someone can place this lab with 100 meters of = a large transformer ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C58D31.0F969D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    Lo and behold:
     
    http://www.edf.= fr/download.php4?coe_i_id=3D54806
     
     
    It turns out that the French system is = variable=20 between 49-51 Hz and that the higher number would be expected when the = plant is=20 running at thremal maximum... in l'ete, shall we say...
     
    That is logical - your turbines are = spinning at the=20 maximimum permissible rate and this jacks up the frequency=20 slightly....
     
    Still do not think (or hope not anyway) = that this=20 is the explanation for the excess energy...unless someone can place this = lab=20 with 100 meters of a large transformer
    ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C58D31.0F969D50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 13:54:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KKsSKU015583; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:54:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KKsQiZ015563; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:54:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:54:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VIM3x1y8wX4cz2chtVtF5+FG/hXS6nrE1A32bp2M7pJ0pWwe5VAnFYLRDQmveW+RsmASPNwvz62dHpGxqvtnkW9rSC7v5+euhXTu8a/81QupzzjUYOlxLx3LDU3EpCfcaVNnJE3xqIAxXO/6VAZ691AtmaKtk+5N+TzZk4oa9Vk= ; Message-ID: <20050720205413.6985.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:54:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720111405.0398ba10 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1916928646-1121892853=:6827" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1916928646-1121892853=:6827 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are people that actually refuse to believe that Remote Viewing is real too, despite all the evidence. Actually this article is based on the work of much older studies. Also, Hal Puthoff experimented on this topic with Ingo Swann in the early days of RV in attempts to manipulate machines from a distance. Chris Jed Rothwell wrote: Some issues and reactions similar to those of cold fusion: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68216,00.html I cannot judge, but some of this research seems impressive. It is statistical in nature and it has not been replicated elsewhere. That puts it in the same category as the top quark. - Jed --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1916928646-1121892853=:6827 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    There are people that actually refuse to believe that Remote Viewing is real too, despite all the evidence. Actually this article is based on the work of much older studies. Also, Hal Puthoff experimented on this topic with Ingo Swann in the early days of RV in attempts to manipulate machines from a distance.
     
    Chris

    Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
    Some issues and reactions similar to those of cold fusion:

    http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68216,00.html

    I cannot judge, but some of this research seems impressive. It is
    statistical in nature and it has not been replicated elsewhere. That puts
    it in the same category as the top quark.

    - Jed


    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1916928646-1121892853=:6827-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 14:03:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KL35Sl018984; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:03:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KL32cG018943; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:03:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:03:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200507202103.j6KL2rdK018860 ultra5.eskimo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:02:52 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: Subject: Re: New article by Haiko Lietz From: "hl haikolietz.de" Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Jebbar-Office Mail Reply-To: hl haikolietz.de Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, I have added a correction to my latest bubble fusion article today: The article says that time correlation of light flashes and neutron measurements was only shown by Taleyarkhan et al. to be within a 2 millisecond time window. This refers to the overall time span in which correlations occurred (Phys. Rev. E., 2004, fig.7). Earlier Taleyarkhan et al. had already shown coincidences to be within a time window of roughly 10 nanoseconds (Science, 2002, fig.5a). http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20542/1.html - Haiko > Apart from any theoretical consideration, Putterman's demand is nutty. A > correlation is a correlation. If the timing does not fit Putterman's > expectation, that means the phonomenon does not work the way Putterman > thinks it does; it does not mean there there is no correlation. > > Roger Stringham and Russ George think that Putterman is being deliberately > obtuse about this timing issue. He is setting a goal he knows the > experiment will not meet, in order to denigrate the results. People have > told me that Putterman is a political academic infighter. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 14:05:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KL5Njq020110; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:05:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KL5KuI020070; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:05:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:05:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?RWxlY3RyaWNpdOk=?= de France Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:04:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720210445.SOIO8378.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > ....but is there any reason why, if the lab is in or near a power station, and the MAHG tube were somehow picking up energy from a transformer - that you would have that one Hertz shift? The stability standard is +/- 1% but even a 0.5 Hz shift is detrimental to a heavy loaded system. I think Jean-Louis' lab is located in or near Avon, France which should be a suburb just south of gay Paree. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 14:12:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KLCKtP023320; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:12:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KLCJ2Q023306; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:12:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:12:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404qh$17e9bm7 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:12:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > > > . . . you can be 99% sure, has nothing to > > do with any supposed secret space station. > > Assuming he is lying, what would be his motive? Just a thought here... Admittedly this might be considered a far fetch rationalization, but I wonder if McKinnon, later on, may have been used (unbeknownst to him) to spread disinformation. This far-fetched theory implies that once the DOD discovered McKinnon's hacking attempts they might have proceeded to seed his future Easter egg hunts with deliberate disinformation before finally lowing the boom on him. It's a common defensive tactic to spread disinformation in order to obscure the actual facts. Put enough "garbage" out there to obfuscate the real facts and eventually everybody stops paying attention to the original claims...whatever those original claims might be. Personally, I find it hard to believe a secret "space station" exists out there, or that we're in direct communication with extraterrestrials as much as I'd like to believe it were so. Please note that I'm using the phrase "direct communication" here. Who knows what's happening indirectly. As for the believability factor. Space stations? Such comments certainly make ME question the veracity of McKinnon's claims. Perhaps that's the whole point. But yes, as others have already suggested, McKinnon should be employed in the IT sectors working on firewall protection issues. While the DOD may be acting a little snippy over this issue, I suspect a lot of private industries have gotten the religion and have employed the very hackers who have hacked their own databases - after, of course, the sinners performed a little community service. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 14:29:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KLSYSn029867; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:28:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KLSXw3029850; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:28:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:28:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720170431.039902e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:28:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn In-Reply-To: <20050720205413.6985.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720111405.0398ba10 pop.mindspring.com> <20050720205413.6985.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Christopher Arnold wrote: >There are people that actually refuse to believe that Remote Viewing is >real too, despite all the evidence. What evidence? Has remote viewing been tested objectively, in depth? The only tests I know of were performed by Hal Puthoff. I know little about them, although he sent me a paper. I find them inconclusive, and few in number. I do not think anyone attempted to replicate them, so there is not much evidence either way. Of course remote viewing or the Jahn effects seem impossible based on what we now know of biology and physics, but we know practically NOTHING about biology. I can list dozens of ordinary, everyday biological phenomena that seem utterly incredible, and which we cannot begin to explain. They are as mysterious as cellular reproduction was before the structure of DNA was elucidated in 1952. DNA is wonderfully elegant and simple, so the truth seems obvious to us in retrospect. We forget that before 1952 people did not have a clue about reproduction (or how the nucleus controls the cell, or any other aspect of DNA). The theories being floated to explain reproduction turned out to be utterly, profoundly, absurdly wrong. They turned out to be wildly out of kilter -- as bad as most people today would say claims about ESP, remote viewing, or for that matter cold fusion are. In short, the fact that something seems impossible is no indication that it really is impossible (especially in biology); and the fact that experts think a theory is plausible is no guarantee that it really is. Or, as the Great American Fats Waller put it: "One never knows, do one?" Experiment -- and experiment alone -- is only standard of truth. If there have not been many experiments in remote viewing, then no one knows whether it is real or not. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 14:33:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KLXAsW032069; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:33:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KLX4AQ032025; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:33:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:33:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DEC301.1030108 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:32:49 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Electricit=E9_de_France?= References: <20050720172439.SPVR11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <002101c58d65$5359bb10$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003a01c58d6b$c8967d90$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003a01c58d6b$c8967d90$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7L48rD.A.R0H.QMs3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Lo and behold: > > http://www.edf.fr/download.php4?coe_i_id=54806 > > > It turns out that the French system is variable between 49-51 Hz and > that the higher number would be expected when the plant is running at > thremal maximum... in l'été, shall we say... Je ne comprend pas! How can the system be _variable_? I mean, don't all stations have to agree on a frequency? How do they do that if it's variable -- vote, or something? Or does somebody in an office building in Paris turn a knob when the temperature outside goes over 80 (er, 27)? > > That is logical - your turbines are spinning at the maximimum > permissible rate and this jacks up the frequency slightly.... > > Still do not think (or hope not anyway) that this is the explanation > for the excess energy...unless someone can place this lab with 100 > meters of a large transformer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 14:36:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KLaCbI000728; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:36:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KLaACE000713; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:36:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:36:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404qh$17eblm2 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,304,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1323685570:sNHT15569922" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:35:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Christopher Arnold > There are people that actually refuse to believe that > Remote Viewing is real too, despite all the evidence. > Actually this article is based on the work of much older > studies. Also, Hal Puthoff experimented on this topic > with Ingo Swann in the early days of RV in attempts to > manipulate machines from a distance. > > Chris Several years ago I recall a couple of news articles that were making the rounds on TV and radio networks that dealt with congress's outrage over the discovery that a substantial amount of our tax dollars were being spent funding exotic research on "remote viewing". The implications were obvious, that it was considered a wasteful project that needed to be shut down, all in the name of saving taxpayers dollars. Not for one second did I believe the implied conclusions of the news article were telling the whole truth of the matter. What made more sense to me was that in the eyes of certain classified departments remote viewing may have seemed to them to be in danger of becoming a tad too visible to the public. Those departments researching this intriguing phenomenon may have decided it was probably prudent to find a way to obfuscate their work from prying eyes. I think a convenient leak was generated. The result was that an outraged congress dutifully fulfilled its noble mission of nipping yet another wasteful project from the budget. Everyone ends up happy! Congress thinks it's actually doing something useful. The public gets a brief chuckle out of the demise of another dubious project. Meanwhile, the classified agencies working on remote viewing are extremely happy about the outcome because, as far as everyone else is concerned, they no longer exist! It's business as usual! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 14:46:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KLkJm3005664; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:46:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KLkGm1005624; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:46:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:46:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008901c58d74$66f25f10$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050720172439.SPVR11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <002101c58d65$5359bb10$6401a8c0@NuDell> <003a01c58d6b$c8967d90$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42DEC301.1030108@pobox.com> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Electricit=E9_de_France?= Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:45:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <3Qwv3B.A.nXB.nYs3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> http://www.edf.fr/download.php4?coe_i_id=54806 >> It turns out that the French system is variable between 49-51 >> Hz and that the higher number would be expected when the plant >> is running at thremal maximum... in l'été, shall we say... > > Je ne comprend pas! > > How can the system be _variable_? I mean, don't all stations > have to agree on a frequency? Oui, exactment ...but that does not mean that when the temperatue on a July day is pushing 38 that the single operator (EDF) will not tell every plant to max out at 51 Hz, no? Again, that is probably only feasible when you have only one operator (is that right Terry?) - and EDF wants all its turbines spinning at the maximimum permissible rate because of the demand - and this jacks up the frequency slightly.... ... or this is my guess See the graphic on page 8 of the previous cite - looks like anything between 48 and 52 in "normal".... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 14:49:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KLmloa006986; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:48:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KLmiZ2006950; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:48:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:48:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?RWxlY3RyaWNpdOk=?= de France Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:48:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720214831.RFTR3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > It turns out that the French system is variable between 49-51 Hz and that the higher number would be expected when the plant is running at thremal maximum... in l'ete, shall we say... I don't think this is right. This the maximum variation for ENGAGING a generator to the network. Once engaged there will be a forced synchronization. Outside this range the generator will not be allowed to engage. Unfortunately, my french rough and my french-speaking secretary is on vacation in Paris. I hope she enjoys the heat and locusts. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 15:00:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KLvOch010511; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:57:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KLvBJX010386; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:57:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:57:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?RWxlY3RyaWNpdOk=?= de France Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:55:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720215538.RMIY3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-06-TC.A.DiC.1is3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence"> > > How can the system be _variable_? It can't vary. Variances reduce the generator efficiency; but, the system *will* synchronize. During the strike of 1984, I ran the N. GA hydroelectric power system. When we brought the generators on line we had a phasor meter which compared the generator phase to the line phase prior to engaging the generator. You could miss it a bit, but when you missed it a lot, you tripped all sorts of safety systems. It took some anticipation for the 1908 vintage generators to hit it just right; but, our little 12 MWatt generators would instantly synchronize to the line. In the large plants with their 818 MWatt generators, it was all done by computers. Missing with one of those could take the grid down. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 15:05:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KM4xdq015655; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:05:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KM4v4U015634; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:04:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:04:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050720220438.009b0750 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:04:38 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Resent-Message-ID: <_66iSD.A.O0D.Iqs3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Experiment -- and experiment alone -- is only standard of truth. If there >have not been many experiments in remote viewing, then no one knows whether >it is real or not. > >- Jed > I have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Suppose you observe some scientific phenomena which only occurs once and you are the only observer. The event would be true in spite of the fact it could not be repeated. If one only believed true what could be proved experimentally then normal life would become impossible. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 15:11:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KMAXgq018489; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:10:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KMAVJ1018464; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:10:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:10:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009901c58d77$c8f967a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050720214831.RFTR3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Electricit=E9_de_France?= Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:10:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <9cF2vB.A.XgE.Wvs3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We could be making a mountain out of a molehill, as this small point probably does not explain anything which is relevant to MAHG, anyway, but... > This the maximum variation for ENGAGING a generator to the > network. Once engaged there will be a forced synchronization. > Outside this range the generator will not be allowed to engage. Yes. Every generator must be in sync... but the French like to do everything in their own uniques and slightly "citroenesque" fashion, so to speak, and that could mean (just a guess) that the previous day some bureaucrat in Paris, seeing the weather forecast, has decreed that at 10:00 am we will all go to the maximum rpms on all turbines. ...and to heck with anyone so foolish as to own an electric clock which depends on a stable frequency... matter of fact I have noticed that the French do not trust electric clocks particularly anyway.... Just like the language and the culture you know: past imperfect, present subjunctive, and the future conditional ... Hey, is that description of the French-a-la-mode "le mot juste" ... or what? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 15:19:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KMJHaq022702; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:19:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KMJFaY022684; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:19:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:19:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?RWxlY3RyaWNpdOk=?= de France Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:15:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720221511.DQSG8463.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <6VpK4C.A.XiF.j3s3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > See the graphic on page 8 of the previous cite - looks like > anything between 48 and 52 in "normal".... I haven't figured out what that silly graph is saying. :-) I think it's telling how the voltage will vary with frequency. I think the graph at the top of p. 12 tells the story. It's talking about frequency regulation of connecting facilities. Time increments for regulation are 15 ms; but, the graph clearly shows the lower stability point of 49.5 Hz. Anyway, it's real easy to test with an oscope by triggering off the line . . . IF they ever go back to work. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 15:31:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KMUoYg028191; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:31:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KMUnsu028167; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:30:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:30:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?RWxlY3RyaWNpdOk=?= de France Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:21:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720222149.RZUV20054.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <88d5SC.A.C4G.ZCt3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > See the graphic on page 8 of the previous cite - looks like > anything between 48 and 52 in "normal".... I haven't figured out what that silly graph is saying. :-) I think it's telling how the voltage will vary with frequency. I think the graph at the top of p. 12 tells the story. It's talking about frequency regulation of connecting facilities. Time increments for regulation are 15 ms; but, the graph clearly shows the lower stability point of 49.5 Hz. Anyway, it's real easy to test with an oscope by triggering off the line . . . IF they ever go back to work. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 15:32:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KMWIMX028764; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:32:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KMWGcA028736; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:32:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:32:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:28:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720222802.SCWF20054.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > Just a thought here... Several good thoughts! Have you read Dan Brown's "Digital Fortress"? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 15:38:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KMbe8J030681; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:37:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KMbdWI030664; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:37:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:37:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720175913.039a1eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:36:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Remote viewing and coral fertilization In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720170431.039902e0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720111405.0398ba10 pop.mindspring.com> <20050720205413.6985.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050720170431.039902e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <40xpxB.A.EfH.yIt3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >Of course remote viewing or the Jahn effects seem impossible based on what >we now know of biology and physics, but we know practically NOTHING about >biology. I can list dozens of ordinary, everyday biological phenomena that >seem utterly incredible, and which we cannot begin to explain. They are as >mysterious as cellular reproduction was before the structure of DNA was >elucidated in 1952. Let me list one example which happens to resemble remote viewing: coral reefs all over the Pacific ocean spawn at the same time -- almost all on the same night. How do they coordinate? That was a big mystery until recently, but I think it has been established that "the cue is November's full moon" plus 2 to 6 days. The details remain to be worked out. You wonder how coral sense the moon, but in any case, these primitive creatures "communicate" in a sense, or coordinate en mass over thousands of kilometers, using very subtle clues. If remote viewing actually exists, it must have a naturalistic explanation. I suppose it must be a subtle form of communication, or coordinated thinking similar to the coral coordination. A person in one part of the world sees an object -- or remembers seeing it -- and somehow that visual memory reaches another person elsewhere. Perhaps it transmits through a chain of people. Machines positioned outside the skull can already sense the electromagnetic radiation from the brain, and make sense of it, so it not unthinkable that humans and other animals have a similar capability. But it seems extremely unlikely to me that a person could sense this radiation from the other side of the earth! That is a highly implausible hypothesis -- hardly to be taken seriously -- but my point is, if remote viewing is confirmed, eventually some hypothesis or another will explain it. When the explanation is revealed it will probably be simple and clear in retrospect, and we will wonder why anyone ever doubted that remote viewing is real. That goes for cold fusion and other present-day mysteries, too. Gene Mallove and other predicted that CF will cause the wrack and ruin of present day physics. The explanation can only be astounding! Revolutionary! Perhaps that is true, but it seems more likely to me that once we know the explanation for CF, it will seem almost banal in retrospect. We will say: "What was all the fuss about? Of course it works. And it fits right in with what we already knew." DNA was a wondrous discovery, but it did not disturb the laws of physics and chemistry. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 15:42:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KMfsBQ032320; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:42:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KMfqCR032291; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:41:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:41:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ba01c58d7c$2a65e870$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050720221511.DQSG8463.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Electricit=E9_de_France?= Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:41:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of off-time-ly humor, our Prez - Dubya, along with Tony Blair and Jacques Chirac were relaxing in a Parisian sauna at a chic salon, noticing that all of the clocks seemed to be off the correct time. Suddenly, there was a beeping sound. Dubya presses his forearm & the beeping stopped. The others looked curiously at him. "Oh, that was just my pager- I have a microchip embedded" and then added humbly, " and Dick says I'm late and have to leave soon." Two seconds later, the silence was broken by the sound of a revving Swedish moped, and Tony Blair lifted the palm of his hand to his ear. The PM explained, "That was my cell, chaps. I have a telecom chip implanted," ..."and that was that sleazy Ms Filkin again." "By this time, French president Chirac was feeling sort of low-tech. Without saying anything, he quickly excused himself but returned momentarily. When he returned, Bush and Blair both stared at him incredulously as a long piece of toilet paper was dangling from the Frenchman's derrière. When Jacques saw that he had their attention, he feigned astonishment: "Sacre Bleu! I'm think I'm getting a fax," and then he grinned broadly " ah yes, my "niece" is coming by for a little tete-a-tete in a few minutes, and says come as you are" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 16:00:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KN09j8007138; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:00:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KMUHMS027996; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:30:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:30:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:25:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720222559.SBXY20054.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Christopher Arnold >Also, Hal Puthoff experimented on this topic with Ingo Swann in the early days of RV in attempts to manipulate machines from a distance. Actually, Pat Price put effeminate Swann to shame. You should do a little research on Price, his performance, and his fate. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 16:14:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KNDXld012224; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:13:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KNDTJK012191; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:13:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:13:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720183740.0398d880 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:12:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050720220438.009b0750 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050720220438.009b0750 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: >I have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Suppose you observe >some scientific phenomena which only occurs once and you are the only >observer. If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific -- yet. You have to reproduce it. If you cannot reproduce it, then eventually you must conclude that you did not see it. Of course that only applies to subtle events that are difficult to detect. If you see a UFO land, and an extraterrestrial comes into your house and drinks tea with you, that's real. But such unique yet high-sigma events hardly ever happen to anyone. Before 1989, Mizuno and others saw events such as neutrons produced by palladium deuteride. In retrospect we now know that these events were real, and they were what you might call precursor indications, or hints, of cold fusion. However, at the time Mizuno did a lot of rooting around, checking, but he never imagined it might be cold fusion, so he dismissed the events as random electronic noise. You might say, he concluded he was mistaken, and he had not observed anything after all. Now you might call that head-in-the-sand, blind stupidity. If CF is ever accepted by the establishment, Fleischmann and Pons will eventually be regarded as two of the greatest experimental scientists who ever lived, right up there with Faraday. Mizuno might have beat them to it, but he blew it. He will be one of second-stringer, minor players in the field instead. But I would not call that stupidity. I would say, instead, that a real scientist must do what Mizuno did. Several times a day, in fact. He must conclude that his senses deceived him, and he *did not see* what he thought he saw. Or what he did not mean what he thought it meant. And 99.9999% of the time, he will be right. We cannot go chasing after every stray factor, every instrument noise or possible anomaly. Experimental science would become hopelessly bogged down. There are many famous incidents in science in which people ignored anomalies which turned out to be important, the way Mizuno did. Other might-have-been-famous researchers ignored precursor indications of the x-ray and the photovoltaic effect for example. It is very difficult to find the right balance. >If one only believed true what could be proved experimentally then normal >life would become impossible. As a practical matter, yes, of course we believe lots of things that have not been proven experimentally, including dubious notions such as economics, true love, and the innate perversity of inanimate objects. But when we restrict the discussion to phenomena that *can* be tested in a laboratory, such as remote viewing, then experiment is ultimately the *only* valid test. Of course theory and common sense are very good guides, and most of the time you can rely on them without bothering to do an experiment. It is highly unlikely that remote viewing exists, after all. The public and Congress had every right to be outraged that such things were being researched with the taxpayer's money. That is even more true of absurdities like the Star Wars program. BUT, however unlikely remote viewing or Star Wars may seem, the only way to be sure they are impossible is to test them. Because there is only a limited amount of money and a small number of researchers, we must carefully pick and choose what to research, and what to ignore. If we had an infinite supply of money and a billion researchers standing by, life would be wonderful. We could exhaustively test every claim that surfaces. (The magic magnet motor claims alone would fill a hundred labs.) Someday, perhaps, with artificial intelligence and robots we will be able to do that. Perhaps this will increase the pace of progress in science and technology to an unimaginable extent, and we will learn more every year than we learned in the whole of the 20th century. Who knows? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 16:54:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KNsLgW026301; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:54:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6KNsJHX026272; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:54:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:54:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <43vtna$12bs7m1 mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,305,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1153310401:sNHT228955828" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:53:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7TBCKB.A.baG.rQu3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > From: > > > Just a thought here... > > Several good thoughts! > > Have you read Dan Brown's "Digital Fortress"? > no. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 17:54:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L0rvVw018577; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:54:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L0rtdQ018557; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:53:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:53:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <47kor5$126gqoa mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,305,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1147693834:sNHT27227960" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:52:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A few additional thoughts regarding the debate over RV: > Jed sez: > If remote viewing actually exists, it must > have a naturalistic explanation. I suppose > it must be a subtle form of communication, > or coordinated thinking similar to the coral > coordination. A person in one part of the > world sees an object -- or remembers seeing > it -- and somehow that visual memory reaches > another person elsewhere. Perhaps it > transmits through a chain of people. > Machines positioned outside the skull can > already sense the electromagnetic radiation > from the brain, and make sense of it, so it > not unthinkable that humans and other animals > have a similar capability. But it seems > extremely unlikely to me that a person could > sense this radiation from the other side of > the earth! Extremely unlikely indeed, if we arbitrarily focus our hypothesis on the premise that RV is caused by "electromagnetic radiation" emanating from the brain. This popular line of thought is precisely the reason why, IMHO, this phenomenon remains largely categorized as a pseudo science by many traditionalists. Most I believe would assume it's ridiculous to hypothesize that my brain waves are capable of traveling through space for hundreds and thousands of miles, like a radio transmitter, and then still be capable of influencing a receptive brain on the opposite side of the world. I think they are right to conclude it's an absurd concept. But that doesn't necessarily mean that their conclusions are the correct one, meaning, it is therefore impossible for RV, telepathy, and other "psychic" phenomenon to exist. They may be looking for the wrong mechanism to explain the experience. Personally, I think there is a far more simple explanation for the phenomenon. However, I suspect a scientist looking for objective proof using traditional tools like charts and statistical measurements will have a difficult time finding the tell-tale signatures. As such, RV and other psychic phenomenon may for some time yet remain relegated to the outer fringes of science (pseudo science) precisely become these kinds of experiences don't conform easily to traditional testing methodologies based on objective observation. Hopefully, trying to bring this personal manifesto to a reasonably short conclusion, might I suggest that the problem may lie more in our current perceptions of what makes up the core of our INDIVIDUALITY - our sense of SELF. First of all, I would wager that the awareness of our SELF can hardly be considered an objective experience capable of being measured easily in objective terms. And second of all, it may also turn out to be one of the biggest illusions of all - to assume that our current perceptions of our SELF are really separate from everyone else's perception of their SELF. I realize that many who read this suggestion might find it highly alarming (to think they are not really who they think they are!), and in our current state of evolution, that may precisely be why there might exist filters in place that help us maintain the illusion of our separateness & individuality from each other. Never the less, I suspect the illusion we defend so passionately occasionally sl! ops over into the so-called collective realms, but we do our best to ignore those little accidents. Ah yes, ACC's "Childhood's End" may yet be our ultimate destiny! No child wants to grow up! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 18:12:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L1BUCh026329; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:11:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L1BS7m026304; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:11:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:11:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.41.106] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:11:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050721011105.TFAO3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <2ahTzC.A.2aG._Yv3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > > Have you read Dan Brown's "Digital Fortress"? > > > > no. Oh, okay, don't bother. BUT, I bet you would enjoy "Angels and Demons" by him. . . unless you're Catholic. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 18:22:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L1LGj4029942; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:21:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L1LEjv029900; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:21:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:21:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=V1cOqqQIpu/kAF5HSX0EgT0eksZYtOdi9vN9GTpYEPCbhy0I/Ans6ev6nJ7BIqEvm3GTkzXTfUTYT7X4nKewQYscKzEFJ4g1f/oFgSWr2ShGAckHDt4XeS+aQTYD6YCCB3BS+PBWIofLusD+998I+hLgZfj/oeFFvmHLli35hQw= ; Message-ID: <20050721012046.29724.qmail web33312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:20:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <47kor5$126gqoa mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1476423583-1121908846=:26053" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1476423583-1121908846=:26053 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Remote viewing is real, it does work and I am living proof. I can only comment on what I have personally done, and if you don't believe it worked - look at my patent. New technologies do not grow on trees and they seldom get invented by following the old established literature - besides, I have had experts in electrical engineering and particle physics tell me that this device's ability to operation impossible - only to choke in despair when given a private demo. So far - all investors have relied on the advice of Scientists and Electrical Engineers, and they all know the device is not supposed to operate, which kills investment. The one thing I cannot find with remote viewing, and I have tried - is an investor. But with the latest prototype I have made nanophase diamond powder, it has been authenticated, it is a very new product and Bucky Diamonds are like Bucky balls - it takes time to gain acceptance. Chris Arnold orionworks charter.net wrote: A few additional thoughts regarding the debate over RV: > Jed sez: > If remote viewing actually exists, it must > have a naturalistic explanation. I suppose > it must be a subtle form of communication, > or coordinated thinking similar to the coral > coordination. A person in one part of the > world sees an object -- or remembers seeing > it -- and somehow that visual memory reaches > another person elsewhere. Perhaps it > transmits through a chain of people. > Machines positioned outside the skull can > already sense the electromagnetic radiation > from the brain, and make sense of it, so it > not unthinkable that humans and other animals > have a similar capability. But it seems > extremely unlikely to me that a person could > sense this radiation from the other side of > the earth! Extremely unlikely indeed, if we arbitrarily focus our hypothesis on the premise that RV is caused by "electromagnetic radiation" emanating from the brain. This popular line of thought is precisely the reason why, IMHO, this phenomenon remains largely categorized as a pseudo science by many traditionalists. Most I believe would assume it's ridiculous to hypothesize that my brain waves are capable of traveling through space for hundreds and thousands of miles, like a radio transmitter, and then still be capable of influencing a receptive brain on the opposite side of the world. I think they are right to conclude it's an absurd concept. But that doesn't necessarily mean that their conclusions are the correct one, meaning, it is therefore impossible for RV, telepathy, and other "psychic" phenomenon to exist. They may be looking for the wrong mechanism to explain the experience. Personally, I think there is a far more simple explanation for the phenomenon. However, I suspect a scientist looking for objective proof using traditional tools like charts and statistical measurements will have a difficult time finding the tell-tale signatures. As such, RV and other psychic phenomenon may for some time yet remain relegated to the outer fringes of science (pseudo science) precisely become these kinds of experiences don't conform easily to traditional testing methodologies based on objective observation. Hopefully, trying to bring this personal manifesto to a reasonably short conclusion, might I suggest that the problem may lie more in our current perceptions of what makes up the core of our INDIVIDUALITY - our sense of SELF. First of all, I would wager that the awareness of our SELF can hardly be considered an objective experience capable of being measured easily in objective terms. And second of all, it may also turn out to be one of the biggest illusions of all - to assume that our current perceptions of our SELF are really separate from everyone else's perception of their SELF. I realize that many who read this suggestion might find it highly alarming (to think they are not really who they think they are!), and in our current state of evolution, that may precisely be why there might exist filters in place that help us maintain the illusion of our separateness & individuality from each other. Never the less, I suspect the illusion we defend so passionately occasionally sl! ops over into the so-called collective realms, but we do our best to ignore those little accidents. Ah yes, ACC's "Childhood's End" may yet be our ultimate destiny! No child wants to grow up! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-1476423583-1121908846=:26053 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Remote viewing is real, it does work and I am living proof. I can only comment on what I have personally done, and if you don't believe it worked - look at my patent.
     
    New technologies do not grow on trees and they seldom get invented by following the old established literature - besides, I have had experts in electrical engineering and particle physics tell me that this device's ability to operation impossible - only to choke in despair when given a private demo.
     
    So far - all investors have relied on the advice of Scientists and Electrical Engineers, and they all know the device is not supposed to operate, which kills investment. The one thing I cannot find with remote viewing, and I have tried - is an investor. But with the latest prototype I have made nanophase diamond powder, it has been authenticated, it is a very new product and Bucky Diamonds are like Bucky balls - it takes time to gain acceptance.

    Chris Arnold

    orionworks charter.net wrote:
    A few additional thoughts regarding the debate over RV:

    > Jed sez:

    > If remote viewing actually exists, it must
    > have a naturalistic explanation. I suppose
    > it must be a subtle form of communication,
    > or coordinated thinking similar to the coral
    > coordination. A person in one part of the
    > world sees an object -- or remembers seeing
    > it -- and somehow that visual memory reaches
    > another person elsewhere. Perhaps it
    > transmits through a chain of people.
    > Machines positioned outside the skull can
    > already sense the electromagnetic radiation
    > from the brain, and make sense of it, so it
    > not unthinkable that humans and other animals
    > have a similar capability. But it seems
    > extremely unlikely to me that a person could
    > sense this radiation from the other side of
    > the earth!

    Extremely unlikely indeed, if we arbitrarily focus our hypothesis on the premise that RV is caused by "electromagnetic radiation" emanating from the brain. This popular line of thought is precisely the reason why, IMHO, this phenomenon remains largely categorized as a pseudo science by many traditionalists. Most I believe would assume it's ridiculous to hypothesize that my brain waves are capable of traveling through space for hundreds and thousands of miles, like a radio transmitter, and then still be capable of influencing a receptive brain on the opposite side of the world. I think they are right to conclude it's an absurd concept.

    But that doesn't necessarily mean that their conclusions are the correct one, meaning, it is therefore impossible for RV, telepathy, and other "psychic" phenomenon to exist. They may be looking for the wrong mechanism to explain the experience.

    Personally, I think there is a far more simple explanation for the phenomenon. However, I suspect a scientist looking for objective proof using traditional tools like charts and statistical measurements will have a difficult time finding the tell-tale signatures. As such, RV and other psychic phenomenon may for some time yet remain relegated to the outer fringes of science (pseudo science) precisely become these kinds of experiences don't conform easily to traditional testing methodologies based on objective observation.

    Hopefully, trying to bring this personal manifesto to a reasonably short conclusion, might I suggest that the problem may lie more in our current perceptions of what makes up the core of our INDIVIDUALITY - our sense of SELF. First of all, I would wager that the awareness of our SELF can hardly be considered an objective experience capable of being measured easily in objective terms. And second of all, it may also turn out to be one of the biggest illusions of all - to assume that our current perceptions of our SELF are really separate from everyone else's perception of their SELF. I realize that many who read this suggestion might find it highly alarming (to think they are not really who they think they are!), and in our current state of evolution, that may precisely be why there might exist filters in place that help us maintain the illusion of our separateness & individuality from each other. Never the less, I suspect the illusion we defend so passionately occasionally sl!
    ops over into the so-called collective realms, but we do our best to ignore those little accidents.

    Ah yes, ACC's "Childhood's End" may yet be our ultimate destiny!

    No child wants to grow up!

    Regards,
    Steven Vincent Johnson
    www.OrionWorks.com

    Do you Yahoo!?
    Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-1476423583-1121908846=:26053-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 18:22:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L1LUhp030036; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:21:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L1LTAm030008; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:21:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:21:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHm/D8uNV7uQLuwSd2EEP7Kr9+dfIJ2YDPA== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.41] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:19:26 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050720.182012.10124.70014 webmail38.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:2751576015 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.178|webmail38.nyc.untd.com|webmail38.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed- I don't think that C F is inviolation of the traditional laws of physics. I think its an another method where as the laws can act to produce fusion. GES From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 18:25:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L1PCSB000953; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:25:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L1P9vM000914; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:25:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:25:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.41.106] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:24:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050721012447.TLNU3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > Ah yes, ACC's "Childhood's End" may yet be our ultimate destiny! The truly interesting idea is that that destiny may be what makes us different and a possible object of scrutiny of Others. IMNSHO, it is more likely that all intelligent civilizations have a "hive mind". Now, we are not totally autonomous, a la Jung's cosmic unconscious. In AC's "CE" the demon alien was essentially a midwife. Clearly, *some* civilisations birthed without those midwives. Incidentally, some modern philosophers think that the Internet is our prosthesis for that lack of mental communications. As far as verbal communications goes, my wife's BAUD rate far exceeds mine. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 18:33:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L1WNgp004175; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:32:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L1W98R004063; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:32:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:32:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.41.106] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:31:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050721013146.TPAJ3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Christopher Arnold > Remote viewing is real I personally know two people who have proved (to me) they are adept RVers. "SCANATE" and "Grillflame" are as real as MKULTRA. And if you don't believe in MKULTRA, please ignore this post. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 18:54:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L1rrCK020283; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:54:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L1rl73020216; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:53:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:53:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <006901c58d96$f940ee00$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Black Holes: Power factor correction capacitors Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:52:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01C58D6C.F94C9FE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C58D6C.F94C9FE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0066_01C58D6C.F94C9FE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0066_01C58D6C.F94C9FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones made an interesting comment on a past post regarding black = holes which gave me pause and thought. Granted that black holes remain = theoretical. We must remember that what is observed in distant space = occurred some millions of years ago and is not necessarily indicative of = the present. Black holes may be nature's way of " balancing the equation" or the = action similar to a capacitor. This seeming absurd conjecture could lead = to " crazies" thinking in terms of " the other side" but. another view = may be closer to Grimer's writing on compreture ( inverse of = temperature) than we realize. Tesla stated he knew how to transmit = electricity wireless.. hmmm. How does all thsi nonsense apply to vortex? A clue may be in remembering = the Ranque- Hilsch vortex tube design used for cooling by applying a = high speed air vortex. Recall the tube produces heat at one end and cool = at the other. Now consider the earth pictured as two vortex joined at = the base ( two cones joined at the point) . If these imaginary vortex = were conceived as two vortex tubes.. and they produced cold at the north = and south pole and heat at the points, they would describe a weather = scenario. Grimer seemingly alluded to this without recognizing the = stimuli his comments had on others.=20 A comment regarding the ancient Arabic maps triggered my search and = produced the interesting map of Antarctic.. sans snow cover. http://www.wwatching.net/enigma_ancient_maps.htm#Antarctica The question of how the mapmakers could draw a seacoast and elevations = to an area covered in snow has been a mystery. The answer may be no snow was present when they mapped. Consider the = socalled migration of the pre-indian from Asia across the Bering to = Alaska. Supposedly the land mass was fully frozen permitting the trek. = Few are foolish to venture out in subzero temperature to explore the = unknown. The better explanation is the land mass across the Bering was = hospitable for travel including available food and water. Another = mystery is the vanishing Anazasi indian in the southwestern tip of = Colorado around year 1200 AD. A major century long weather phenomena ? I = mentoned to Jones on a post that one proof of his observation may be = that the poles are covered with snow. The earth may be act as a " heat = sink" and the temperature changes happen in phase as natural space = capacitors charge and dischage to maintain order out of chaos. Whats the point of this conjecture??? Capacitors both store energy and = are used for power correction. If a black hole exists, it has a purpose = in nature. The black hole theory is usually depicted as a vortex. It is = seething with energy. Vortexians are diligently searching for CF. Perhaps any attempt to " capture " it will be met with a defense = mechanism, and perhaps we may should look at defense mechanisms as a = clue. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0066_01C58D6C.F94C9FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Jones made an interesting comment on a past post regarding black = holes=20 which gave me pause and thought. Granted that black holes remain = theoretical. We=20 must remember that what is observed in distant space occurred some = millions of=20 years ago and is not necessarily indicative of the present.
    Black holes may be nature's way of " balancing the equation" or the = action=20 similar to a capacitor. This seeming absurd conjecture could lead to " = crazies"=20 thinking in terms of " the other side" but. another view may be closer = to=20 Grimer's writing on compreture ( inverse of temperature) than = we=20 realize. Tesla stated he knew how to transmit electricity wireless.. = hmmm.
     
    How does all thsi nonsense apply to vortex? A clue may be in=20 remembering the Ranque- Hilsch vortex tube design used for cooling by = applying a=20 high speed air vortex. Recall the tube produces heat at one end and cool = at the=20 other. Now consider the earth pictured as two vortex joined at the base = ( two=20 cones joined at the point) . If these imaginary vortex were conceived as = two=20 vortex tubes.. and they produced cold at the north and south pole and = heat at=20 the points, they would describe a weather scenario. Grimer seemingly = alluded to=20 this  without recognizing the stimuli his comments had on others. =
    A comment regarding the ancient Arabic maps triggered my search and = produced the interesting map of Antarctic.. sans snow cover.
    http= ://www.wwatching.net/enigma_ancient_maps.htm#Antarctica
     
    The question of how the mapmakers could draw a seacoast and = elevations to=20 an area covered in snow has been a mystery.
    The answer may be no snow was present when they mapped. Consider = the=20 socalled migration of the pre-indian from Asia across the Bering  = to=20 Alaska. Supposedly the land mass was fully frozen permitting the trek. = Few are=20 foolish to venture out in subzero temperature to explore the unknown. = The better=20 explanation is the land mass across the Bering was hospitable for travel = including available food and water. Another mystery is the vanishing = Anazasi=20 indian in the southwestern tip of Colorado around year 1200 AD. A major = century=20 long weather phenomena ? I mentoned to Jones on a post that one proof of = his=20 observation may be that the poles are covered with snow. The earth may = be act as=20 a " heat sink" and the temperature changes happen in phase as natural = space=20 capacitors charge and dischage to maintain order out of chaos.
     
    Whats the point of this conjecture??? Capacitors both store energy = and are=20 used for power correction. If a black hole exists, it has a purpose in = nature.=20 The black hole theory is usually depicted as a vortex. It is seething = with=20 energy. Vortexians are diligently searching for CF.
    Perhaps any attempt to " capture " it will be met with a defense = mechanism,=20 and perhaps we may should look at defense mechanisms as a clue.
     
    Richard
    ------=_NextPart_001_0066_01C58D6C.F94C9FE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C58D6C.F94C9FE0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <006401c58d96$e20730a0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C58D6C.F94C9FE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 19:00:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L20QoS023559; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:00:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L20OSx023530; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:00:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:00:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?RWxlY3RyaWNpdOk=?= de France Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:01:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050720220141.RRKD3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Oui, exactment ...but that does not mean that when the temperatue > on a July day is pushing 38 that the single operator (EDF) will > not tell every plant to max out at 51 Hz, no? Well, if you had only one generator that might help a bit. It's the torque that generates the juice, not the speed. > Again, that is probably only feasible when you have only one > operator (is that right Terry?) Uh, yeah, and with this thing called the EU, frequency variations simply can't be allowed. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 20:01:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L31Ji8013847; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:01:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L31I95013835; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:01:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DF0FDE.6030106 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:00:46 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720111405.0398ba10 pop.mindspring.com> <20050720205413.6985.qmail@web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050720170431.039902e0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050720175913.039a1eb0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720175913.039a1eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > >> Of course remote viewing or the Jahn effects seem impossible based on >> what we now know of biology and physics, but we know practically >> NOTHING about biology. I can list dozens of ordinary, everyday >> biological phenomena that seem utterly incredible, and which we >> cannot begin to explain. They are as mysterious as cellular >> reproduction was before the structure of DNA was elucidated in 1952. > > > Let me list one example which happens to resemble remote viewing: > coral reefs all over the Pacific ocean spawn at the same time -- > almost all on the same night. How do they coordinate? That was a big > mystery until recently, but I think it has been established that "the > cue is November's full moon" plus 2 to 6 days. The details remain to > be worked out. You wonder how coral sense the moon, but in any case, > these primitive creatures "communicate" in a sense, or coordinate en > mass over thousands of kilometers, using very subtle clues. In general I think I don't completely disagree with your view of "remote viewing", but it's worth pointing out a couple of differences between this kind of ESP, coral reef coordination, and nuclear control of cells. Coral reef spawning time is apparently phase-locked in some way, using a signal we had not previously identified. There is, however, nothing especially mysterious about phase-locking to an (as yet unidentified) external signal: evolutionarily, it's presumably an advantage for particular corals to spawn when the main group does, so once some signal has been "chosen" coral across the ocean will remain locked to it indefinitely. The fact that it seems to be the moon is a surprise but the general picture is not strange. Note that most corals live in relatively shallow, clear water in the tropics; the notion that they can somehow "see" the moon -- or any other light-based signal -- requires no miraculous addition to our repertoire of things we know animals in the sea can do, and could have been imagined (without evidence) before the actual knowledge of what was going on was available. Now, consider cellular reproduction. In 1950, it was already clear that the nucleus controlled the cell through a chemical process of some sort. It wasn't known how that worked, or what molecules were actually involved, but no completely new physics, no totally new theory of fields, in short, no _miracle_ was needed to explain it. People in 1950 could imagine that there was a chemical explanation. And, indeed, while what we now know of reproduction is "miraculously" complex, none the less it remains molecules interacting in aqueous solution in ways that are not fundamentally different from behavior people already knew about pre-1952. Consider PF-style cold fusion. It requires a means for overcoming the Coulomb barrier at a low (overall) temperature, and it requires some way of dumping the energy of the reaction into the environment as a whole rather than spitting it out as a gamma ray or otherwise leaving it in a single packet. But we can picture, however fuzzily, those things happening as a result of closely placed atoms interacting with each other within a paladium lattice; we don't need to invoke some miraculous process, some "new kind of energy field", in order to convince ourselves that it could work. But now consider ESP of _any_ sort. It requires, at a minimum, brain-to-brain communication at a distance. What could the mechanism be? We can rule out gravity waves, I think, and just about anything else we know of except EM waves. But human brains seem singularly short on radio reception gear -- and nobody's ever so much as suggested that all the radio hash in the aether today makes a difference to the results of ESP experiments. So, unless you can convince yourself that someplace buried in our brains there are antennas and demodulators of some sort which we have just overlooked up until the present, you will need to hypothesize some new kind of "field" which is as yet unknown to physics in order to provide a mechanism. I'd say that puts it in a different ballpark entirely from any other example you've mentioned -- about the only thing that comes close is lightning, back before anyone knew what electricity was. And if we take the jump from mind-to-mind communication, which just requires some sort of information transmission which we haven't yet stumbled on, to the ability to predict the future or the outcome of a random process, as the remote viewing websites I just googled seem to claim, then we get into a realm where there is absolutely no hint of a possible explanation that doesn't totally nuke all we currently think we know about physics. Once you violate causality you've gone 'way, 'way past dime-store stuff like perpetual motion machines, antigravity, and aliens in Area 51. (Note that sharks (and some other denizens of the water) do have an electrical sense which could be viewed as ESP but as far as I know there's no evidence of any creature using it for communication. And there's no evidence at all that humans have any such sense. And even if we assume humans have such a sense it doesn't come close to providing a mechanism for "remote viewing".) Granted, evidence always trumps theory, but none the less I think it's misleading to assert "remote viewing" is no harder to swallow now than the examples you gave were for people back in 1945. > > If remote viewing actually exists, it must have a naturalistic > explanation. I disagree completely with your use of the word "must", and I assert that you are stating an article of faith rather than a logical necessity. We are talking about some kind of clairvoyance here. Any such ability would be so far outside the science we know that I would claim we are forced to view it with a "clean slate": It could be natural, it could be "supernatural"; it could be the first hard evidence of a "soul" and a world beyond the world we currently know. It could be a miracle every time it occurs. It could be the dungeonmaster playing games with the feedback circuit in the Matrix. We have not one single shred of a notion as to how it might work, so to say "it must be natural" or "it cannot be supernatural in origin" is to confuse one's _expectation_ with what one actually knows. > I suppose it must be a subtle form of communication, or coordinated > thinking similar to the coral coordination. No, that's "mind-reading" you're thinking of. "Remote viewing" goes far beyond that. Here's a quote from Google's second hit on remote/viewing: "Science has proven that a mental process called REMOTE VIEWING can be used to accurate predict the outcome of any random or deterministic event. [ ... ] I will be shown a random [Get that? Random! -- sal] photo in exactly one hour. I close my eyes and using remote viewing techniques, I visualize what that photo might look like. Then I record my perceptions on paper." These experiments can be done more than one way, but the more general form -- prediction of a random process -- apparently rules out mind-to-mind communication for the mechanism. > A person in one part of the world sees an object -- or remembers > seeing it -- and somehow that visual memory reaches another person > elsewhere. Outcome is to be selected at random. Nobody knows what it will be (or so they say). You are describing old-fashioned psi power, not the stuff remote viewing afficionados claim. Here's another good quote: "Ingo Swann and Harold Sherman claim to have done remote viewing of Mercury and Jupiter. Dr. Russell Targ and Dr. Harold Puthoff studied Swann and Sherman, and reported that their remote viewing compared favorably to the findings of the Mariner 10 and Pioneer 10 research spacecrafts." That is NOT mind-to-mind communication, unless you care to postulate the existence of intellects on Mercury and Jupiter which are "on the same wavelength" as the folks here on Earth! This is new; this is totally outside the box. (And this is probably bogus too but that's just my prejudice speaking ;-) ) > Perhaps it transmits through a chain of people. Machines positioned > outside the skull can already sense the electromagnetic radiation from > the brain, and make sense of it, so it not unthinkable that humans and > other animals have a similar capability. But it seems extremely > unlikely to me that a person could sense this radiation from the other > side of the earth! Yeah, me too. The output of the other 5,999,999,999 brains inbetween might provide a little interference, too, one might think. > That is a highly implausible hypothesis -- hardly to be taken > seriously -- but my point is, if remote viewing is confirmed, > eventually some hypothesis or another will explain it. When the > explanation is revealed it will probably be simple and clear in > retrospect, and we will wonder why anyone ever doubted that remote > viewing is real. Maybe, but again, if people can "see" the surface of Mercury using "remote viewing" then the "there will be a simple explanation" claim doesn't exactly bowl me over with its obvious correctness... > > That goes for cold fusion and other present-day mysteries, too. Gene > Mallove and other predicted that CF will cause the wrack and ruin of > present day physics. The explanation can only be astounding! > Revolutionary! Perhaps that is true, but it seems more likely to me > that once we know the explanation for CF, it will seem almost banal in > retrospect. We will say: "What was all the fuss about? Of course it > works. And it fits right in with what we already knew." DNA was a > wondrous discovery, but it did not disturb the laws of physics and > chemistry. If remote viewing is real, however, it may be a very different kettle of fish. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 20:08:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L37YEM015860; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:07:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L37Wgj015834; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:07:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:07:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=x9JRw9CNyeBaQJrXbnfuHdeaheYjR0KiQ1ReXw4fzt3Ku/GtKi7aLLj909KPzQzLeIaKwAfJ1zAagPSei9SveYhSXalrqHzPj29p650EKkJbnSqqju21pMdZ97OKtDeUsbhRV2YXCt4UUgalcSrMmuj2T8JMvwnvylWgUKHh740= ; Message-ID: <20050721030703.92955.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:07:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050721013146.TPAJ3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-521506037-1121915222=:92790" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-521506037-1121915222=:92790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Your post cannot be ignored.. Chris Terry Blanton wrote: > From: Christopher Arnold > Remote viewing is real I personally know two people who have proved (to me) they are adept RVers. "SCANATE" and "Grillflame" are as real as MKULTRA. And if you don't believe in MKULTRA, please ignore this post. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-521506037-1121915222=:92790 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Your post cannot be ignored..
     
    Chris

    Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
    > From: Christopher Arnold

    > Remote viewing is real

    I personally know two people who have proved (to me) they are adept RVers. "SCANATE" and "Grillflame" are as real as MKULTRA.

    And if you don't believe in MKULTRA, please ignore this post.

    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-521506037-1121915222=:92790-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 20:14:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L3Dr9Y017947; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:14:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L3Dprt017922; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:13:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:13:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <440397$ff5mdt mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,305,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="519231933:sNHT64755980" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: US military does ZPE Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:13:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Terry Blanton > Date: 2005/07/20 Wed PM 09:11:05 EDT > To: > Subject: Re: US military does ZPE > > > From: > > > > Have you read Dan Brown's "Digital Fortress"? > > > > > > > no. > > Oh, okay, don't bother. > > BUT, I bet you would enjoy "Angels and Demons" by him. . . unless you're Catholic. > Last time I checked I appear to be a practicing Agnostic Taoist, with perhaps a sprinkle of paganism mixed in here and there somewheres... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 20:19:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L3IqXH019725; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:19:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L3Iowv019704; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:18:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:18:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3559554.1121915914132.JavaMail.root wamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:18:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <2O5PjB.A.wzE.aQx3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net writes: > Extremely unlikely indeed, if we arbitrarily focus our hypothesis on the premise that RV is caused by > "electromagnetic radiation" emanating from the brain. As far as I know, nothing else emanates from the brain. What else could there be, neutrinos? Entangled particles? If and when they find something else, it may be a candidate. I suppose a hypothesis might be: remote viewing works; it cannot be electromagnetic; so it must be something new and undiscovered. That seems weak to me. > This popular line of thought is precisely the reason why, IMHO, this phenomenon remains largely categorized as > a pseudo science by many traditionalists. I think reproducibility and the s/n ratio are bigger problems. People like me, who are also traditionalists, know that countless aspects of biology cannot be explained. That does not bother us. > Personally, I think there is a far more simple explanation for the phenomenon. However, I suspect a scientist > looking for objective proof using traditional tools like charts and statistical measurements will have a difficult > time finding the tell-tale signatures. What is your simple explanation? It is unclear from this message. It has to be some sort of physical signal. Any physical event can be detected with some kind of instrument. So what kind of detector should we use? If you cannot answer that, then your explanation is not "simple." It is not even an explanation yet. I am sure that if remote viewing is real, there has to be a way to detect the signal with some sort of instrument, because the human brain is an instrument. I do not believe in supernatural powers or events that can only happen in vivo. (Except, as I said before, true love, or the ability to devise tax laws.) On the other hand, the brain is many orders of magnitude more complex than any instrument devised so far, so it may not be possible for us, at this stage, to make a detector. But I am sure it is possible in principle. > Hopefully, trying to bring this personal manifesto to a reasonably short conclusion, might I suggest that the > problem may lie more in our current perceptions of what makes up the core of our INDIVIDUALITY - our sense > of SELF. First of all, I would wager that the awareness of our SELF can hardly be considered an > objective experience capable of being measured easily in objective terms. . . . That is a subjective or poetic description, not an explanation. That does not give us clue what the physical basis of this phonomenon might be. SELF may be impossible to measure (like true love), but if remote viewing exists, it has to be measurable and it has to have a physical cause, just as surely as you can measure any other bodily function. "Vitalism" -- the notion that biology is somehow separate from chemistry and physics -- bit the dust in 1828 when Wohler synthesized urea. That was one of the great liberating moments in history, along with Darwin's discovery of evolution. It finally freed mankind from his special and separate place in the universe -- a prison! That notion was one of the most pernicious and destructive mistakes we ever made, along with racism and Roman Numerals. It held us back for centuries. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 20:19:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L3J4kZ019836; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:19:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L3J26G019801; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:19:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:19:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$17qi9oi mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,305,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1336485650:sNHT23084962" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:18:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton ... > As far as verbal communications goes, my wife's BAUD rate > far exceeds mine. ;-) As does mine. You have my simpathies. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 20:24:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L3NPWt021580; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:23:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L3NOqp021560; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:23:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:23:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DF1515.8070800 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:23:01 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization References: <47kor5$126gqoa mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <47kor5$126gqoa mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_mAal.A.0QF.rUx3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: > Hopefully, trying to bring this personal manifesto to a reasonably > short conclusion, might I suggest that the problem may lie more in our > current perceptions of what makes up the core of our INDIVIDUALITY - > our sense of SELF. First of all, I would wager that the awareness of > our SELF can hardly be considered an objective experience capable of > being measured easily in objective terms. Right -- and in fact it's the single biggest piece of evidence that there's something we don't quite understand yet in the world. The fact that I am conscious is, really, the "elephant in the living room". Are you conscious? Is a cat conscious? Is a cicada conscious? Is my computer conscious? How might you prove any of your answers to those questions to me? You can't provide me with a solid answer to any of those questions, of course, because we haven't got a shred of a clue what "consciousness" is, and in fact the only evidence for the phenomenon's existence each of us has applies to just one person, and no other. Turing test -- pfui. Turing's attempt at describing consciousness is like someone in 1300 trying to describe the properties of the electrical fluid. Many years ago, I had an argument with a very intelligent guy who seemed to be of the opinion that "consicousness" doesn't exist, period, because it's just too silly a notion. Someday maybe I'll post some of his arguments here, if I can recall any of them. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 20:35:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L3YbYD027223; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:34:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L3YadV027203; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:34:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:34:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DF17B2.3080609 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:34:10 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Electricit=E9_de_France?= References: <20050720214831.RFTR3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <009901c58d77$c8f967a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <009901c58d77$c8f967a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > We could be making a mountain out of a molehill, as this small point > probably does not explain anything which is relevant to MAHG, anyway, > but... > >> This the maximum variation for ENGAGING a generator to the network. >> Once engaged there will be a forced synchronization. Outside this >> range the generator will not be allowed to engage. > > > Yes. Every generator must be in sync... but the French like to do > everything in their own uniques and slightly "citroenesque" fashion, > so to speak, and that could mean (just a guess) that the previous day > some bureaucrat in Paris, seeing the weather forecast, has decreed > that at 10:00 am we will all go to the maximum rpms on all turbines. > > ...and to heck with anyone so foolish as to own an electric clock > which depends on a stable frequency... matter of fact I have noticed > that the French do not trust electric clocks particularly anyway.... They also don't trust the tap water, or so I'm told. But is there no cross-border grid in Europe? I thought there was. And that would really take it on the chin if all of France suddenly decided to up-tempo. And in any case I still don't understand how the frequency of the grid as a whole is kept locked to a particular value if all the generators are happily phase-locking to whatever everybody else is doing. But that's a problem with the U.S. system, too, and since it obviously exists :-) I conclude that the lack is in my understanding. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 20:57:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L3usKo004752; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:57:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L3urta004716; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:56:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:56:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=HRUW+r95ttg1D3QIUHNc4HYPI9zqwYWLuy6V8X7gNKf5cVQR0WxjHnnTt5wjuKrViX2eMCptGc2/4MdPCzc/ujwQQZ2Z2qaz2BEZNHEiHoPfPU3E+KEOnHh3ws6JuHm00IffIpuKrLQvFz4q5R+NGPExYawhGyDc0Oq2fCAoG5U= ; Message-ID: <20050721035624.84841.qmail web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:56:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3559554.1121915914132.JavaMail.root wamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-131660245-1121918184=:84668" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <81Qid.A.hJB.E0x3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-131660245-1121918184=:84668 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jed, Before I started RV, I had several very vivid astral projections and if I may suggest a possibility. The body is an instrument housing a multi-layered entity not of this dimension but connected to the body - call it the soul or pure mind. Throughout "all" recorded history, shamen have been able to project a layer or part of that soul/mind through time and space to discover new things. Proof can be in retrieved technology that teaches something New and never thought possible. Chris Jed Rothwell wrote: orionworks@charter.net writes: > Extremely unlikely indeed, if we arbitrarily focus our hypothesis on the premise that RV is caused by > "electromagnetic radiation" emanating from the brain. As far as I know, nothing else emanates from the brain. What else could there be, neutrinos? Entangled particles? If and when they find something else, it may be a candidate. I suppose a hypothesis might be: remote viewing works; it cannot be electromagnetic; so it must be something new and undiscovered. That seems weak to me. > This popular line of thought is precisely the reason why, IMHO, this phenomenon remains largely categorized as > a pseudo science by many traditionalists. I think reproducibility and the s/n ratio are bigger problems. People like me, who are also traditionalists, know that countless aspects of biology cannot be explained. That does not bother us. > Personally, I think there is a far more simple explanation for the phenomenon. However, I suspect a scientist > looking for objective proof using traditional tools like charts and statistical measurements will have a difficult > time finding the tell-tale signatures. What is your simple explanation? It is unclear from this message. It has to be some sort of physical signal. Any physical event can be detected with some kind of instrument. So what kind of detector should we use? If you cannot answer that, then your explanation is not "simple." It is not even an explanation yet. I am sure that if remote viewing is real, there has to be a way to detect the signal with some sort of instrument, because the human brain is an instrument. I do not believe in supernatural powers or events that can only happen in vivo. (Except, as I said before, true love, or the ability to devise tax laws.) On the other hand, the brain is many orders of magnitude more complex than any instrument devised so far, so it may not be possible for us, at this stage, to make a detector. But I am sure it is possible in principle. > Hopefully, trying to bring this personal manifesto to a reasonably short conclusion, might I suggest that the > problem may lie more in our current perceptions of what makes up the core of our INDIVIDUALITY - our sense > of SELF. First of all, I would wager that the awareness of our SELF can hardly be considered an > objective experience capable of being measured easily in objective terms. . . . That is a subjective or poetic description, not an explanation. That does not give us clue what the physical basis of this phonomenon might be. SELF may be impossible to measure (like true love), but if remote viewing exists, it has to be measurable and it has to have a physical cause, just as surely as you can measure any other bodily function. "Vitalism" -- the notion that biology is somehow separate from chemistry and physics -- bit the dust in 1828 when Wohler synthesized urea. That was one of the great liberating moments in history, along with Darwin's discovery of evolution. It finally freed mankind from his special and separate place in the universe -- a prison! That notion was one of the most pernicious and destructive mistakes we ever made, along with racism and Roman Numerals. It held us back for centuries. - Jed --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-131660245-1121918184=:84668 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Jed,
     
    Before I started RV, I had several very vivid astral projections and if I may suggest a possibility. The body is an instrument housing a multi-layered entity not of this dimension but connected to the body - call it the soul or pure mind. Throughout "all" recorded history, shamen have been able to project a layer or part of that soul/mind through time and space to discover new things.
     
    Proof can be in retrieved technology that teaches something New and never thought possible. 
     
    Chris


    Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
    orionworks charter.net writes:

    > Extremely unlikely indeed, if we arbitrarily focus our hypothesis on the premise that RV is caused by
    > "electromagnetic radiation" emanating from the brain.

    As far as I know, nothing else emanates from the brain. What else could there be, neutrinos? Entangled particles? If and when they find something else, it may be a candidate.

    I suppose a hypothesis might be: remote viewing works; it cannot be electromagnetic; so it must be something new and undiscovered. That seems weak to me.


    > This popular line of thought is precisely the reason why, IMHO, this phenomenon remains largely categorized as
    > a pseudo science by many traditionalists.

    I think reproducibility and the s/n ratio are bigger problems. People like me, who are also traditionalists, know that countless aspects of biology cannot be explained. That does not bother us.


    > Personally, I think there is a far more simple explanation for the phenomenon. However, I suspect a scientist
    > looking for objective proof using traditional tools like charts and statistical measurements will have a difficult
    > time finding the tell-tale signatures.

    What is your simple explanation? It is unclear from this message. It has to be some sort of physical signal. Any physical event can be detected with some kind of instrument. So what kind of detector should we use? If you cannot answer that, then your explanation is not "simple." It is not even an explanation yet.

    I am sure that if remote viewing is real, there has to be a way to detect the signal with some sort of instrument, because the human brain is an instrument. I do not believe in supernatural powers or events that can only happen in vivo. (Except, as I said before, true love, or the ability to devise tax laws.) On the other hand, the brain is many orders of magnitude more complex than any instrument devised so far, so it may not be possible for us, at this stage, to make a detector. But I am sure it is possible in principle.


    > Hopefully, trying to bring this personal manifesto to a reasonably short conclusion, might I suggest that the
    > problem may lie more in our current perceptions of what makes up the core of our INDIVIDUALITY - our sense
    > of SELF. First of all, I would wager that the awareness of our SELF can hardly be considered an
    > objective experience capable of being measured easily in objective terms. . . .

    That is a subjective or poetic description, not an explanation. That does not give us clue what the physical basis of this phonomenon might be. SELF may be impossible to measure (like true love), but if remote viewing exists, it has to be measurable and it has to have a physical cause, just as surely as you can measure any other bodily function. "Vitalism" -- the notion that biology is somehow separate from chemistry and physics -- bit the dust in 1828 when Wohler synthesized urea. That was one of the great liberating moments in history, along with Darwin's discovery of evolution. It finally freed mankind from his special and separate place in the universe -- a prison! That notion was one of the most pernicious and destructive mistakes we ever made, along with racism and Roman Numerals. It held us back for centuries.

    - Jed



    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-131660245-1121918184=:84668-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 22:17:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L5GgS4015494; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:17:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L5Geeh015470; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:16:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:16:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "RC Macaulay" Subject: Re: Black Holes: Power factor correction capacitors Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:44:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <006901c58d96$f940ee00$0100007f xptower> In-Reply-To: <006901c58d96$f940ee00$0100007f xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507210144.16210.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 20 July 2005 21:52, RC Macaulay wrote: > BlankJones made an interesting comment on a past post regarding black holes > which gave me pause and thought. Granted that black holes remain > theoretical. We must remember that what is observed in distant space > occurred some millions of years ago and is not necessarily indicative of > the present. Black holes may be nature's way of " balancing the equation" > or the action similar to a capacitor. This seeming absurd conjecture could > lead to " crazies" thinking in terms of " the other side" but. another view > may be closer to Grimer's writing on compreture ( inverse of temperature) > than we realize. Tesla stated he knew how to transmit electricity > wireless.. hmmm. > > How does all thsi nonsense apply to vortex? A clue may be in remembering > the Ranque- Hilsch vortex tube design used for cooling by applying a high > speed air vortex. Recall the tube produces heat at one end and cool at the > other. Now consider the earth pictured as two vortex joined at the base ( > two cones joined at the point) . If these imaginary vortex were conceived > as two vortex tubes.. and they produced cold at the north and south pole > and heat at the points, they would describe a weather scenario. Grimer > seemingly alluded to this without recognizing the stimuli his comments had > on others. A comment regarding the ancient Arabic maps triggered my search > and produced the interesting map of Antarctic.. sans snow cover. > http://www.wwatching.net/enigma_ancient_maps.htm#Antarctica > > The question of how the mapmakers could draw a seacoast and elevations to > an area covered in snow has been a mystery. The answer may be no snow was > present when they mapped. Consider the socalled migration of the pre-indian > from Asia across the Bering to Alaska. Supposedly the land mass was fully > frozen permitting the trek. Few are foolish to venture out in subzero > temperature to explore the unknown. The better explanation is the land mass > across the Bering was hospitable for travel including available food and > water. Another mystery is the vanishing Anazasi indian in the southwestern > tip of Colorado around year 1200 AD. A major century long weather phenomena > ? I mentoned to Jones on a post that one proof of his observation may be > that the poles are covered with snow. The earth may be act as a " heat > sink" and the temperature changes happen in phase as natural space > capacitors charge and dischage to maintain order out of chaos. > > Whats the point of this conjecture??? Capacitors both store energy and are > used for power correction. If a black hole exists, it has a purpose in > nature. The black hole theory is usually depicted as a vortex. It is > seething with energy. Vortexians are diligently searching for CF. Perhaps > any attempt to " capture " it will be met with a defense mechanism, and > perhaps we may should look at defense mechanisms as a clue. > > Richard However, the apparent reluctance of established academia to embrace the obvious fact of the existance of this knowledge among people in the remote past must be rooted in, basically, their fear for their jobs/careers, etc. For to publicly acknowledge these ancient peoples awareness of the real coastlines of this remote and forbidding place is to wonder where they got that knowledge, seeing as that Antarctica has been a land of ice for millions of years. It takes good technology to draw a real coastline from naval surveys or otherwise. Any casual perusal of the maps that our early explorerers used of necessity leads to the wonderment that they survived to improve on the ignorance and superstition of the age with at least some facts. It is these folks, back to the Egyptians and the Chinese that had the earliest paper. This knowledge has to be millions of years old. Who preserved it through thousands of millenia. Or what. Certainly not man, as he was an itinerant eater of fruit and scavenger of cat carcasses in Africa who barely survived extinction in what we now call Kenya about sixty thousand years ago. These men had only a stone axe, 'axe-101', for millions of years before that. They lived naked and took to the trees at the first sign of predators, and in Africa there were at least three species of sabre-tooth cats up to and including Smilodon and several species of the emerging pantherines that were perfectly willing to add 'long pig' to their menus. These would not have been able to pass knowledge down from anybody. Then there are the other anomalies like the shoe found in a coal seam in Pennsylvania that was millions of years old, and the batteries found in the great pyramid, and the supposed mechanical and other technological devices found in a pyramid in China recently. The report on that seems to have slipped out of sight for some reason. So who passed down the knowledge, and where did THEY get it and WHY! The only answer that makes sense, however fantastic, is that somebody in the middle ages stumbled on a cache of knowledge and whatever else and had the good sense to copy it down. Luck would not have drawn that map. The other part of this answer is even more fantastic. That is that we are not the first sentients to have called the Earth 'Home'! So who were these others? Evolved hadrosaurs maybe, or visitors from somewhere else. The greater a civilization, the more fragile its remains if it is destroyed sufficiently to preclude recovery. This may be easier than one thinks given the interdependance of evolved society. Pull out one vital part and the whole structure collapes as a house of cards. Ancient peoples to us built in stone. Thick stone. Old Roman roads survive to this day in roadbeds over two foot thick. Who builds roads like that today? Bear in mind that the heaviest load hauled on these roads that we would build for the heaviest vehicles on the face of the planet........were ox carts and sandal clad message runners. There is darned little left of our oldest cultures. The oldest are intact because a disaster inundated them in the Gulf of Bengal 13000 years ago so they became safe from looters. That is only a FEW thousand years ago. What would be left of cultures made of fragile materials that may be 50 million years old? Of course, all this depends on the historical veracity of the Antarctic map. Standing Bear .....Suppose those Egyptians did not build those pyramids, only painted them? ...or remodeled them a bit. Very few rooms in them. Asking a lot of poor farmers, no matter how they were whipped or tortured, to have built something as large without more rooms in it. Implying a sense of impracticality among peoples that had to make use of everything in order to survive. Look at the wear on the outside in a place where footprints in hard mud can live for centuries. Not just the missing facing stones, which could have been 'salvaged' by later peoples to built other structures; and are missing from ground level to near the top as high as the most daring or desparate would climb to carry a stone down. The underlying stones are quite eroded as well. Then there was the Russian research. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 20 23:09:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L69Mha003169; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:09:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L69KV9003161; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:09:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:09:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=fPXpilg+iUvXCUTXWCEYnUi/mr/RZSBvJYR2kbTOSJCeQsjOMjuWG0x97mfItgcwLjuYcWhCRTt6raw0jXpm6ZaHNGlPMdG3IkD5FP5ZzUBW+LNsZXiCpq/3NE7YsU9tvhjp56H8Og+vb2Wo5ix0HgQaUi1LF71je1Hc7wPa/KQ= ; Message-ID: <20050721060859.89077.qmail web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:08:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050720222559.SBXY20054.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-247699294-1121926139=:88790" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-247699294-1121926139=:88790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So you agree that RV is real and some are better at it than others? Chris Terry Blanton wrote: > From: Christopher Arnold >Also, Hal Puthoff experimented on this topic with Ingo Swann in the early days of RV in attempts to manipulate machines from a distance. Actually, Pat Price put effeminate Swann to shame. You should do a little research on Price, his performance, and his fate. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-247699294-1121926139=:88790 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    So you agree that RV is real and some are better at it than others?
     
    Chris

    Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
    > From: Christopher Arnold

    >Also, Hal Puthoff experimented on this topic with Ingo Swann in the early days of RV in attempts to manipulate machines from a distance.

    Actually, Pat Price put effeminate Swann to shame. You should do a little research on Price, his performance, and his fate.

    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail.yahoo.com --0-247699294-1121926139=:88790-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 00:37:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6L7aTgg005633; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:36:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6L7aQnn005602; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:36:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:36:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050721073604.009d21b8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:36:04 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Resent-Message-ID: <2JH6JC.A.SXB.5B13CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:12 pm 20/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >Grimer wrote: > >>I have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Suppose you observe >>some scientific phenomena which only occurs once and you are the only >>observer. > >If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific -- yet. You have to >reproduce it. If you cannot reproduce it, then eventually you must conclude >that you did not see it. > >Of course that only applies to subtle events that are difficult to detect. >If you see a UFO land, and an extraterrestrial comes into your house and >drinks tea with you, that's real. But such unique yet high-sigma events >hardly ever happen to anyone. > >Before 1989, Mizuno and others saw events such as neutrons produced by >palladium deuteride. In retrospect we now know that these events were real, >and they were what you might call precursor indications, or hints, of cold >fusion. However, at the time Mizuno did a lot of rooting around, checking, >but he never imagined it might be cold fusion, so he dismissed the events >as random electronic noise. You might say, he concluded he was mistaken, >and he had not observed anything after all. > >Now you might call that head-in-the-sand, blind stupidity. No, I would call it a missed opportunity, a lack of confidence in his own judgement, a reluctance to leave the herd. You no doubt know of the psychology experiment where there are ten students in a room, nine of which are in cahoots with the examiner and the tenth who isn't. The examiner asks a lot of questions and the nine answer honestly up until a question comes up where they all lie. Even though it is obvious the nine are lying most of the tenth students finish up by agreeing with the other nine. Surely the scientists that the world needs are those who have the courage of their own convictions even though the whole world is against them - extrapolators rather than interpolators. People who are prepared to die for their beliefs if necessary. Kamikaze. ======================================= Greater love than this hath no man than he lay down his life for his friends. ======================================= A scientist's first loyalty must be, not to academic, professional, financial, advancement - not to fame - but to Truth. Simone Weil accurately summed up the situation that science finds itself in. ======================================================= What is disastrous is not the rejection of classical science but the way it has been rejected. It is wrongly believed it could progress indefinitely and it ran into a dead end about the year 1900; but scientists failed to stop at the same time in order to contemplate and reflect upon the barrier, they did not try to describe it and define it and, having taken it into account, to draw some general conclusion from it; instead they rushed violently past it, leaving classical science behind them. And why should we be surprised at this? For are they not paid to forge continually ahead? Nobody advances in his career, or reputation, or gets a Nobel prize, by standing still. To cease voluntarily from forging ahead, any brilliantly gifted scientist would need to be a saint or a hero, and why should he be a saint or a hero? With rare exceptions there are none to be found among the members of other professions. So the scientists forged ahead without revising anything, because any revision would have seemed a retrogression; they merely made an addition. ======================================================= In short, the world needs more Malloves and fewer Porkers. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 04:53:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LBrGOG009741; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:53:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LBrCVb009714; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:53:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:53:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DF8C8B.9050201 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:52:43 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: US military does ZPE References: <20050720204144.WHBU11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050720204144.WHBU11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> >> > > > >>. . . you can be 99% sure, has nothing to >>do with any supposed secret space station. >> >> > >Assuming he is lying, what would be his motive? > > I don't think he's lying. What he said in the interview made it sound to me like he saw this list (or these lists) of military people tagged as "non-terrestrial" and he saw lists of ship names which he couldn't locate when he tried to look them up. From that, he says concluded that there's a secret space station already up there along with a "space force" which nobody's ever heard of. At least, that's how I read it -- he presented the evidence, he presented his conclusions. If he has any other evidence to support that conclusion, he didn't mention it in the interview. In other words, he found something which seems odd, he doesn't know what it is, and he's just guessing that it's a secret space station. And I thinks it's very, very likely that his guess is wrong. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 06:06:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LD5bY0010475; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:05:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LD5ZSX010444; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:05:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:05:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:04:51 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization Message-ID: <42DF7343.32286.504B7C0 mark.cpovo.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4403b0$17qi9oi mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.30 public beta 1) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:11:25 -0300 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 200.203.35.123 X-MDRemoteIP: 200.203.35.123 X-Return-Path: mark cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:11:29 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: <1DRW5B.A.DjC.e253CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Have you noted the women's capability of talking in full-duplex? Mark On 20 Jul 2005 at 23:18, orionworks charter.net wrote: > > From: Terry Blanton > > ... > > > As far as verbal communications goes, my wife's BAUD rate > > far exceeds mine. ;-) > > As does mine. > > You have my simpathies. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 06:30:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LDSKQO020924; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:28:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LDQxTr020312; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:26:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:26:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48rlb0$13j3rd0 mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,307,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1194454432:sNHT19337626" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 9:26:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sez: > If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific > -- yet. You have to reproduce it. If you cannot > reproduce it, then eventually you must conclude > that you did not see it. Using your own words, that's absolutely ridiculous! Tell that to all those pesky UFOs that come flitting in and out of our tiny sphere of influence. Tell that to all the witnesses who saw what they saw, but cannot offer any reproducible proof of what they saw in a repeatable format. Jeeze! Why won't those saucers just cooperate! What a convenient way to disregard valuable information. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 07:29:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LET54H020785; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:29:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LET2xg020754; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:29:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:29:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42DFB112.6060703 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:28:34 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn References: <2.2.32.20050720220438.009b0750 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050720183740.0398d880@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720183740.0398d880 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Grimer wrote: > >> I have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Suppose you observe >> some scientific phenomena which only occurs once and you are the only >> observer. > > > If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific -- yet. You have to > reproduce it. If you cannot reproduce it, then eventually you must > conclude that you did not see it. Nonsense. If you cannot reproduce it you must conclude that it is very hard to reproduce. There's no need to conclude that you did not see it at all (unless, of course, you weren't quite sure you saw it to start with). Speaking as a programmer, we encounter "Can Not Reproduce" situations all the time. In fact, any reasonably complex program is almost certain to have bugs that occur so rarely that they will be nearly impossible to reproduce just because the frequency of occurrence is so low, so even if you see it once, you'll probably never see it again. Speaking as a hardware designer, modern machines have numerous circuits that work "most of the time" embedded in them; if they're properly designed, "most of the time" means so much of the time that nobody will ever see them fail. A classic example is edge resynchronization when a signal crosses from one clock domain to another. If you try to latch a level from a signal that came from another clock domain, sometimes your flip flop will fail to settle down in the allotted time, and your machine will fail. The probability of this happening is calculable and depends on the properties of the signal and the flipflop, and one normally tries to make sure it won't happen more often than, say, 1 time in 1 trillion years of operation. So, suppose some user actually sees a crash caused by such a synchronization failure -- we can be very, very sure that it's an event that will never happen again, for all our usual definitions of "never". But that doesn't mean it didn't happen _once_! Computers are complex, but so is nature, and so are human brains. As I just said, I know for a fact that "CNR" events can happen in computers. Why would you feel they can't happen in any other arena? If I observe something I'm sure is a "CNR" event in nature, I may conclude that I should tell nobody about it because I won't be believed, but it is not rational to say that I must eventually conclude that I did not see it! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 07:39:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LEcW1T026795; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:38:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LEcVIO026773; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:38:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:38:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:38:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050721143809.DNBF3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Christopher Arnold > So you agree that RV is real and some are better at it than others? Without doubt. Dr.s Stuart Hameroff, Roger Penrose, and Jack Sarfatti have theories on quantum consciousness involving neural microtubules which might explain how ESP. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 07:44:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LEiLMY029802; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:44:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LEiJkj029777; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:44:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:44:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721093929.03981390 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:43:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Remote viewing and coral fertilization In-Reply-To: <42DF0FDE.6030106 pobox.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050720111405.0398ba10 pop.mindspring.com> <20050720205413.6985.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050720170431.039902e0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050720175913.039a1eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <42DF0FDE.6030106 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Coral reef spawning time is apparently phase-locked in some way, using a >signal we had not previously identified. There is, however, nothing >especially mysterious about phase-locking to an (as yet unidentified) >external signal: evolutionarily, it's presumably an advantage for >particular corals to spawn when the main group does, so once some signal >has been "chosen" coral across the ocean will remain locked to it indefinitely. It has to be moonlight plus one or more signal. Moonlight alone is not reliable enough (because of bad weather and so on), and it does not vary with the seasons enough to tell the coral that it is now November rather than February. I do not know what other signals are involved. I think water temperature and/or pheromones have been suggested. >Now, consider cellular reproduction. In 1950, it was already clear that >the nucleus controlled the cell through a chemical process of some >sort. It wasn't known how that worked, or what molecules were actually >involved, but no completely new physics, no totally new theory of fields, >in short, no _miracle_ was needed to explain it. Actually, many serious people, including scientists, thought it was miraculous. That is to say, supernatural, or one of these things "man is not meant to know." Furthermore, in The Double Helix James Watson said that the theories then being developed were hopelessly complex, incomprehensible (to him), and they all turned out to be wrong. But -- as it turned out -- that did not indicate a need for radically new physics or chemistry. Just because something seems miraculous or impossible, that does not mean we need a revolutionary breakthrough to understand it. DNA was actually more of an un-revolution: it was a simplification, that reduced complexity and cut away great thickets of burgeoning new speculative theory. If a simple explanation for CF or ESP emerges tomorrow, a lot of empty speculation will bite the dust. No one can say for sure that ESP does *not* have a simple explanation. (Simple in retrospect.) >But now consider ESP of _any_ sort. It requires, at a minimum, >brain-to-brain communication at a distance. What could the mechanism >be? We can rule out gravity waves, I think, and just about anything else >we know of except EM waves. But human brains seem singularly short on >radio reception gear -- and nobody's ever so much as suggested that all >the radio hash in the aether today makes a difference to the results of >ESP experiments. . . . Yes, on the surface, based on what we know now, it does seem to call for something revolutionary. But so did reproduction. Many other astounding biological phenomena turned out to have prosaic causes. Bat echolocation in the dark, for example. People used to think that was "second sight" or some kind of ESP. >And if we take the jump from mind-to-mind communication, which just >requires some sort of information transmission which we haven't yet >stumbled on, to the ability to predict the future or the outcome of a >random process, as the remote viewing websites I just googled seem to >claim, then we get into a realm where there is absolutely no hint of a >possible explanation that doesn't totally nuke all we currently think we >know about physics. Once you violate causality . . . I have to agree. But perhaps the causality violation experiments are incorrect, but some of the ESP ones are correct. They do not all stand or fall together, any more than the effusion of CF results all stand or fall together. Some are right and some are way wrong, in my opinion. >Granted, evidence always trumps theory, but none the less I think it's >misleading to assert "remote viewing" is no harder to swallow now than the >examples you gave were for people back in 1945. It is harder, I agree. But you have to read books from before 1952 to get a sense of how mysterious reproduction was, and how lost in the woods people were. It wasn't a matter of "swallowing" it, because everyone could see that cells reproduce. There was no question the phenomenon was real. That is the main difference between reproduction and remote viewing. If remote viewing were as common as reproduction, no one would doubt it exists even though we cannot explain it. >>If remote viewing actually exists, it must have a naturalistic explanation. > >I disagree completely with your use of the word "must", and I assert that >you are stating an article of faith rather than a logical necessity. Perhaps it is an article of faith! But it is based on the last 400 years of history, to wit: 1. Everything so far has had a naturalistic explanation, including many things that people used to claim must be supernatural. 2. If it isn't naturalistic, we will never understand it. So the possibility will always remain that it is actually natural but we just haven't found the mechanism yet. In other words, it is impossible to distinguish between a miracle and human stupidity. >We are talking about some kind of clairvoyance here. Any such ability >would be so far outside the science we know that I would claim we are >forced to view it with a "clean slate" . . . Not necessarily! That sounds like an article of faith. People used to say that radioactivity, x-rays, the energy of the sun, and cellular reproduction are "far outside science as we know it." They say that about cold fusion today. Of course x-rays and fission did require some broad changes to physics, but perhaps it was not such a "clean slate" in retrospect. >It could be natural, it could be "supernatural"; it could be the first >hard evidence of a "soul" and a world beyond the world we currently know. Nothing can be supernatural, by definition. It will not be hard evidence until we capture it with instruments, elucidate the physics, and reproduce it at will. That will make it part of the present world-as-we-know-it. Radio waves and x-rays seemed otherworldly at first, but now they are prosaic. That's the trouble with science: it takes the romance out of life and makes things utilitarian. By the time it finishes dissecting ESP and remote viewing, they will used to sell pantyhose. >It could be a miracle every time it occurs. There is no such thing. Everything that can happen is a product of natural laws, and everything can -- in principle -- be explained. Call that "faith" if you want, but remember: there have been thousands of different "faiths" over the last 10,000 years, but science is the only magic that works. All the others have been noise and wishful thinking. >It could be the dungeonmaster playing games with the feedback circuit in >the Matrix. We have not one single shred of a notion as to how it might >work . . . We had not a single shred of a notion how reproduction worked in 1950, and I doubt anyone really knows how CF works today, but there was never any reason to think they are miraculous. It is *far* more likely we are still ignorant. No one has the slightest idea how African termites coordinate to build nests, or how they keep the outer layers of the nests impermeable to rain and predators, but there is no reason to think it calls for a miracle. >. . . so to say "it must be natural" or "it cannot be supernatural in >origin" is to confuse one's _expectation_ with what one actually knows. It is an expectation based on the most powerful precedents in human history. Nothing else even comes close to the success of this paradigm. >That is NOT mind-to-mind communication, unless you care to postulate the >existence of intellects on Mercury and Jupiter which are "on the same >wavelength" as the folks here on Earth! Yes, if remote viewing of Mars works, that sure does rule out mind-to-mind communication. However, it could be that the Mars results are invalid, but the terrestrial results are correct. I wouldn't know, but I doubt the Mars results have been replicated enough at high sigma to draw firm conclusions. >If remote viewing is real, however, it may be a very different kettle of fish. May be. I would say it *may well* be. But we will not know until we understand it. Many things in the past that seemed very different turned out to come out of the same kettle of fish. Actually, it has been kind of a disappointment. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 07:46:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LEjXZj030344; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:45:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LEjVDL030320; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:45:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:45:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:45:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050721144509.DRTQ3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > Why won't those saucers just cooperate! Neither did the "WOW" signal: http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/2001/Wow.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 08:03:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LF2egd005376; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:02:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LF2WMn005309; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:02:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:02:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721104419.03972730 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:01:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn In-Reply-To: <48rlb0$13j3rd0 mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <48rlb0$13j3rd0 mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: > > If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific > > -- yet. You have to reproduce it. If you cannot > > reproduce it, then eventually you must conclude > > that you did not see it. > >Using your own words, that's absolutely ridiculous! > >Tell that to all those pesky UFOs that come flitting in and out of our >tiny sphere of influence. Those are observations, not experiments. The rules are different for observations, when we have no power to trigger or influence events. Astronomy is also observational, since no one can trigger a super-nova. (Astronomers would LOVE to trigger one if they could!) Astronomers can improve their instruments and devise new tests, and new ways to parse the data. The study of UFOs will not progress, and doubts about the existence of UFOs will not be laid to rest, until the people studying UFOs devise better instruments to capture the events in more detail, more reliably, on more occasions. In that sense, reproducibility does play a role even in purely observational sciences. >Tell that to all the witnesses who saw what they saw, but cannot offer any >reproducible proof of what they saw in a repeatable format. As Francis Bacon pointed out, the unaided human senses alone are not a reliable source of information. Until the events are recorded on instruments they will not exist as far as science is concerned. >What a convenient way to disregard valuable information. Alas, it is the only way to make sense of any information. It is a shame we cannot elucidate the nature of things from the human senses and experience alone, but experience teaches us that experience is not reliable. If acute intelligence, keen observation and astounding intuition were a reliable guide to nature, people would have devised starships thousands of years ago. People have always had these mental abilities, but they never did us much good until we harnessed them to instruments, machines, logic and objective methodology. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 08:31:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LFV7TB024026; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:31:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LFV5iY023992; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:31:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:31:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721110743.039839e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:30:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn In-Reply-To: <42DFB112.6060703 pobox.com> References: <2.2.32.20050720220438.009b0750 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050720183740.0398d880 pop.mindspring.com> <42DFB112.6060703 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7VGVR.A.02F.4-73CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific -- yet. You have to >>reproduce it. If you cannot reproduce it, then eventually you must >>conclude that you did not see it. > >Nonsense. If you cannot reproduce it you must conclude that it is very >hard to reproduce. There's no need to conclude that you did not see it at >all (unless, of course, you weren't quite sure you saw it to start with). My statement was sloppy. I did not mean that literally. Mizuno did not conclude that events never occurred. He concluded they were caused by random electronic noise rather than actual neutrons, so they had no deep significance. He turned out to be wrong, but most of the time, most researchers who reach that conclusion are right. When a phenomenon is elusive, with a low s/n ratio, and when it may well be electronic noise, a researcher has to draw the line eventually and stop trying to figure out what causes it. That is unfortunate, but life is short and we cannot exhaustively follow up on every single anomaly. There have been a few instances in which irreproducible but high-sigma CF events occurred. The best examples are the 1985 explosion in Fleischmann and Pon's lab, and Mizuno's 1991 massive heat after death event. Even though these could not be reproduced, because of technical difficulties and safety concerns, the researchers themselves never had the slightest doubt the events were real, and anomalous. I have no doubt either, because they fit into the pattern of CF effects that *can* be reproduced. It was most unfortunate that the 1985 and 1991 events were not recorded properly with good instruments, and the physical evidence from them was not preserved. F&P and Mizuno were inexcusably unprofessional in these instances! Other researchers, such as Patterson, were far worse, because they apparently caused dozens of even hundreds of high-sigma reproducible events, but on all those occasions they used substandard, unreliable instruments and manual data collection (pencil and paper) instead of recording the data in a detailed, coherent, machine readable format. What an idiotic, tragic waste! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 09:33:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LGWQWH026394; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:32:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LGWNLG026329; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:32:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:32:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <44038l$180t7th mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,308,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1343135665:sNHT16799640" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:23:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The continuing debate between orionworks charter.net and Jed: > > > > If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific > > > -- yet. You have to reproduce it. If you cannot > > > reproduce it, then eventually you must conclude > > > that you did not see it. > > > >Using your own words, that's absolutely ridiculous! > > > >Tell that to all those pesky UFOs that come flitting in and > >out of our tiny sphere of influence. > > Those are observations, not experiments. The rules are different for > observations, when we have no power to trigger or influence events. Unfortunately, many UFO skeptics of all kinds of anomolous phenomenon use this tactic as an excuse to dismiss spurious observations, claiming it can't be be real because it isn't (or can't be) scientifically verified. To these skeptics it boils down to: Nuff said...Case closed. > Astronomy is also observational, since no one can trigger a > super-nova. (Astronomers would LOVE to trigger one if they > could!) Astronomers can improve their instruments and devise > new tests, and new ways to parse the data. The study of UFOs > will not progress, and doubts about the existence of UFOs > will not be laid to rest, until the people studying > UFOs devise better instruments to capture the events in > more detail, more reliably, on more occasions. In that sense, > reproducibility does play a role even in purely observational > sciences. > > > >Tell that to all the witnesses who saw what they saw, but > >cannot offer any reproducible proof of what they saw in a > >repeatable format. > > As Francis Bacon pointed out, the unaided human senses alone > are not a reliable source of information. Until the events are > recorded on instruments they will not exist as far as science > is concerned. Indeed, I have often been fooled by my own personal interpretations of external phenomenon. OTOH, my human senses are the only instruments I have in which to interface with the universe. However, as you have pointed out, Bacon stated "...the unaided human senses ALONE [caps mine] are not a reliable source of information." The key word being ALONE. Completly abandoning one's personal senses and experiences, as a method to assess external phenonenon would leave one a pretty hopeless mess in my view. Personally, while I truly admire your tenacious capacity to stick to what appears to be repeatable objective observational details for proof I still feel that you might rely just a tad too heavily on objective experimental evidence as the ultimate means to prove the existence (or lack) of all kinds of anomolous phenomenon, particularly at the expense of what your own personal interpretations might have been suggesting to you all along. I'm reminded of some of the observations your mother (whom I wish I had had the chance to have met) had described to you as she neared her own death, but prehaps I'm getting dangeriously off-topic here. Call me picky! > >What a convenient way to disregard valuable information. > > Alas, it is the only way to make sense of any information. It > is a shame we cannot elucidate the nature of things from the > human senses and experience alone, but experience teaches us > that experience is not reliable. If acute intelligence, keen > observation and astounding intuition were a reliable > guide to nature, people would have devised starships > thousands of years ago. People have always had these mental > abilities, but they never did us much good until we harnessed > them to instruments, machines, logic and objective methodology. > > - Jed Indeed, there is much truth to this. Never the less I disagree with your contention that it is the "only way" to make sense of any information. That's just a tad too absolute a conclusion for me to buy. For example, it's often been my highly subjective and idle day dreams that spuriously flit across my consciousness like UFOs that have pointed me in the direction of another personal discovery, or how to conduct an experiment, or how to resolve some nasty program code, or design a simulation. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 10:18:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LHIRWi017163; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:18:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LHFjNi015870; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:15:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:15:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=U7HSyICMC35hT0nCtooHhRT/bSm/eQY/zHdApmjlngen64Tv+PhdXCP6SLOlGyaUPrLMXDL1pwsPY6JQa/FAZ/RcL1bSp1Ilx/FwxmkZykV54aZGR53Gl8YRqwWhQkkFWIyqYbpj8C3SoTHzNUSOwDHdbNrHTSuoXRtO9M3WkRI= ; Message-ID: <20050721171519.50188.qmail web33313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:15:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721110743.039839e0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-669762781-1121966119=:49206" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <4XFW6C.A.43D.Bh93CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-669762781-1121966119=:49206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jed, Respectfully, some people need funding to hire HELP, otherwise they use a pencil and paper. It is not the fault of the discoverer that he ONLY discovered the breakthrough that a hard working professional data cruncher would never have bothered attempting, much less even think of. And how dare two chemists even consider an experiment in Fusion, that is totally unprofessional. With proper changes to the educational system (some being rammed through now) - the next two smart asses will get shot for the offense and save the real $cientists a load of grief and Excuses for how the information leaked out. What if - Pons and Fleischmans had $30 Million to set up a lab, computers and data collectors instead of them having the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC establishment destroy them for daring to break new ground without their approval? $cience does not work that way. Science in America tosses Billions into garbage fusion while it cuts a $20Million RV project that proved itself of real value and spends $350 Million to discover cheap H2 production, exactly what I offered the DOE for a $100K & $200K grant - both denied. My device produces far hotter and more energetic plasma than the P&F underwater arc discharge, the tritium monitor shows that a radioactive gas is being detected and many New materials have been produced from reacting with the plasma. I have several scientific reports on these materials but I don't even write down what happens anymore, and I need an investor - now does that make me more unprofessional than P&F? This is just the way life is, but to insinuate that the fathers of discovery ignorant for not doing everything according to scientific protocol, when the $cientific attackers like MIT falsified the reports as Dr. Mallove attested to, is a little unscientific - isn't it? Does anyone hear know how to read Carbon NMR spectra, because so far - nobody can tell what the plasma hath produced? Chris Jed Rothwell wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific -- yet. You have to >>reproduce it. If you cannot reproduce it, then eventually you must >>conclude that you did not see it. > >Nonsense. If you cannot reproduce it you must conclude that it is very >hard to reproduce. There's no need to conclude that you did not see it at >all (unless, of course, you weren't quite sure you saw it to start with). My statement was sloppy. I did not mean that literally. Mizuno did not conclude that events never occurred. He concluded they were caused by random electronic noise rather than actual neutrons, so they had no deep significance. He turned out to be wrong, but most of the time, most researchers who reach that conclusion are right. When a phenomenon is elusive, with a low s/n ratio, and when it may well be electronic noise, a researcher has to draw the line eventually and stop trying to figure out what causes it. That is unfortunate, but life is short and we cannot exhaustively follow up on every single anomaly. There have been a few instances in which irreproducible but high-sigma CF events occurred. The best examples are the 1985 explosion in Fleischmann and Pon's lab, and Mizuno's 1991 massive heat after death event. Even though these could not be reproduced, because of technical difficulties and safety concerns, the researchers themselves never had the slightest doubt the events were real, and anomalous. I have no doubt either, because they fit into the pattern of CF effects that *can* be reproduced. It was most unfortunate that the 1985 and 1991 events were not recorded properly with good instruments, and the physical evidence from them was not preserved. F&P and Mizuno were inexcusably unprofessional in these instances! Other researchers, such as Patterson, were far worse, because they apparently caused dozens of even hundreds of high-sigma reproducible events, but on all those occasions they used substandard, unreliable instruments and manual data collection (pencil and paper) instead of recording the data in a detailed, coherent, machine readable format. What an idiotic, tragic waste! - Jed --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-669762781-1121966119=:49206 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Jed,
     
    Respectfully, some people need funding to hire HELP, otherwise they use a pencil and paper. It is not the fault of the discoverer that he ONLY discovered the breakthrough that a hard working professional data cruncher would never have bothered attempting, much less even think of. And how dare two chemists even consider an experiment in Fusion, that is totally unprofessional. With proper changes to the educational system (some being rammed through now) - the next two smart asses will get shot for the offense and save the real $cientists a load of grief and Excuses for how the information leaked out.
     
    What if - Pons and Fleischmans had $30 Million to set up a lab, computers and data collectors instead of them having the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC establishment destroy them for daring to break new ground without their approval? $cience does not work that way. Science in America tosses Billions into garbage fusion while it cuts a $20Million RV project that proved itself of real value and spends $350 Million to discover cheap H2 production, exactly what I offered the DOE for a $100K & $200K grant - both denied.
     
    My device produces far hotter and more energetic plasma than the P&F underwater arc discharge, the tritium monitor shows that a radioactive gas is being detected and many New materials have been produced from reacting with the plasma. I have several scientific reports on these materials but I don't even write down what happens anymore, and I need an investor - now does that make me more unprofessional than P&F?
     
    This is just the way life is, but to insinuate that the fathers of discovery ignorant for not doing everything according to scientific protocol, when the $cientific attackers like MIT falsified the reports as Dr. Mallove attested to, is a little unscientific - isn't it?
     
    Does anyone hear know how to read Carbon NMR spectra, because so far - nobody can tell what the plasma hath produced?
     
    Chris

    Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
    Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

    >>If it only occurs once then it isn't scientific -- yet. You have to
    >>reproduce it. If you cannot reproduce it, then eventually you must
    >>conclude that you did not see it.
    >
    >Nonsense. If you cannot reproduce it you must conclude that it is very
    >hard to reproduce. There's no need to conclude that you did not see it at
    >all (unless, of course, you weren't quite sure you saw it to start with).

    My statement was sloppy. I did not mean that literally. Mizuno did not
    conclude that events never occurred. He concluded they were caused by
    random electronic noise rather than actual neutrons, so they had no deep
    significance. He turned out to be wrong, but most of the time, most
    researchers who reach that conclusion are right.

    When a phenomenon is elusive, with a low s/n ratio, and when it may well be
    electronic noise, a researcher has to draw the line eventually and stop
    trying to figure out what causes it. That is unfortunate, but life is short
    and we cannot exhaustively follow up on every single anomaly.

    There have been a few instances in which irreproducible but high-sigma CF
    events occurred. The best examples are the 1985 explosion in Fleischmann
    and Pon's lab, and Mizuno's 1991 massive heat after death event. Even
    though these could not be reproduced, because of technical difficulties and
    safety concerns, the researchers themselves never had the slightest doubt
    the events were real, and anomalous. I have no doubt either, because they
    fit into the pattern of CF effects that *can* be reproduced.

    It was most unfortunate that the 1985 and 1991 events were not recorded
    properly with good instruments, and the physical evidence from them was not
    preserved. F&P and Mizuno were inexcusably unprofessional in these
    instances! Other researchers, such as Patterson, were far worse, because
    they apparently caused dozens of even hundreds of high-sigma reproducible
    events, but on all those occasions they used substandard, unreliable
    instruments and manual data collection (pencil and paper) instead of
    recording the data in a detailed, coherent, machine readable format. What
    an idiotic, tragic waste!

    - Jed


    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-669762781-1121966119=:49206-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 10:33:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LHWLce025458; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:32:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LHWIsT025437; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:32:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:32:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050721173157.00958c74 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:31:57 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Insight into a problem is a bit like experiencing a vision. One "sees" something but doesn't know what it means. I find myself in this situation with regard to the effect of drop in Beta-atmospheric (B-a) pressure on the strength of the attraction and repulsion of positive and negative charges. I am confident that the explanation I have given is correct, albeit obscenely unorthodox, but I find I have to demand a justification, an explanation, from myself (my own worst critic) as to why. To summarize the situation. The repulsive force between like charges is affected by the drop in B-a pressure as one enters into a material such as water, steel, concrete, palladium etc. The attractive force between unlike charges is unaffected by a change in the B-a pressure as one enters the material. So the problem is: ------------------------------------------------ Why are repulsive forces affected and attractive forces not affected by the B-a change? ------------------------------------------------ When a Science Officer retires from BRS there is a custom that they are given a representational model which symbolizes their most interesting, or my case, bizarre, research exploits. My colleagues presented me with a perspex, brass and concrete small scale exhibit of our Beta-aether pressure simulation. On it is a brass plaque with the following quotation from Grimer and Hewitt's 1969 paper to the - Southampton International Conference on Materials. ======================================= ! A TENSILE STRESS THEREFORE IS ! ! MERELY A REDUCTION IN THE AMBIENT ! ! COMPRESSIVE STRESS AND THE ! ! CONCEPT OF ACTION AT A DISTANCE ! ! IS NO LONGER REQUIRED ! ======================================= .....and that really is the crux of the matter. The force that pushes the like charges apart emanates from those charges - but - the force that pushes the unlike charges together emanates, not from the charges, but from the charges' enveloping environment. Let's, give it a name. Lets call it the Gamma-aether, the Gamma-atmosphere (G-a), for we are assuredly dealing with two vastly different levels of the total Aether. The need for a Gamma-atmosphere was implicitly recognised in the Southampton paper by designating the familiar atmosphere, the air, as the Alpha-atmosphere (A-a)to both distinguish it from the Beta-atmosphere and to provide for up to 22 more enveloping atmospheres as they become required. Now it is not that the change in the B-a pressure does not affect the value of the Gamma atmosphere pressure at all. It does affect it. But the G-a pressure is so bloody enormous that the change brought about by a change in the B-a is negligible. Anybody familiar with calculus will be very familiar with thingees being negligible when they are very small compared with other thingees. For people who are not familiar with calculus, consider the following example where two "atmospheres" are spatially separated which makes things easier to understand. The pressure 30,000 feet down in an ocean is affected by a change in air pressure above it. But a change of 1% in air pressure leads to a change of water pressure of only 0.001%. And since, as our esteemed moderator has recently pointed out "vortex-L is a Cold Fusion forum first" I had better spell out the implications for CF. When the B-a pressure is lowered, as it is in the "FLUID PHASE" reduced B-a pressure of a material such as water or metal, the repulsion between positive charges is reduced. In other words, the Coulomb Barrier between positive charges is lowered. This is the essential key to understanding Cold Fusion. And in order to make progress in bringing CF to a commercial product, without blowing oneself up in the process, one would be well advised to take Whitehead's good advice. ==================================================== The art of reasoning consists in getting hold of the subject at the right end, of seizing the few general ideas that illuminate the whole, and of persistently organizing all subsidiary facts around them. Nobody can be a good reasoner unless he has realized the importance of getting hold of the big ideas and hanging onto them like grim death . A.N.Whitehead Presidential Address to the London Branch of the Mathematical Association., 1914 ==================================================== Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 10:43:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LHhIHC030218; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LHhGWq030203; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:43:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:43:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050721174258.009bfc2c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:42:58 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Resent-Message-ID: <8I-fw.A.3XH.0693CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:23 pm 21/07/2005 -0400, Steven wrote: . > For example, it's often been my highly subjective > and idle day dreams that spuriously flit across my > consciousness like UFOs that have pointed me in the > direction of another personal discovery, or how to > conduct an experiment, or how to resolve some nasty > program code, or design a simulation. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com I couldn't agree more Steve. That is what distinguishes a creative scientist from a dull plodder. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 11:05:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LI4oas006924; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:05:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LI4ecA006794; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:04:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:04:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721134949.03972e20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:03:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn In-Reply-To: <44038l$180t7th mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <44038l$180t7th mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2pgt6C.A.GqB.2O-3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >If acute intelligence, keen > > observation and astounding intuition were a reliable > > guide to nature, people would have devised starships > > thousands of years ago. People have always had these mental > > abilities, but they never did us much good until we harnessed > > them to instruments, machines, logic and objective methodology. > > >Never the less I disagree with your contention that it is the "only way" >to make sense of any information. That's just a tad too absolute a >conclusion for me to buy. For example, it's often been my highly >subjective and idle day dreams that spuriously flit across my >consciousness . . . That's intuition. I listed that above, as one of things you have to harness to instruments, machines, etc. You cannot do science without intuition. I would love to see a billion robots working on research, but I doubt they will ever serve as anything more than tireless lab assistants and bottle washers. Perhaps a theorist can work with a pencil and paper alone, but in experimental and observational science instruments are the only source of valid information. UFO-ology will never be a science until people devise instruments to capture them, such digital cameras that trigger automatically. (UFO-cams.) I suppose they will resemble the instruments that international teams of amateur astronomers are using to document asteroids. There are times when the human senses substitute for "instruments." One of the early breakthroughs in transistors came about when a chemist smelled sulphur, and realized it was doping the devices. The human sense of smell is remarkable, and in the early 50s it was still rivaled chemical assay techniques. Ed Storms says that he can see some details and contrast in a microscope with the naked eye that a digital or film camera will not capture. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 11:43:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LIgaeb027876; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:42:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LIgYnL027856; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:42:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:42:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48u2ha$12dtua6 mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,308,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1155463494:sNHT16469448" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:42:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, I'm probablly getting way OT here but I feel a need to follow-up on one particular line of thought. ... > Perhaps a theorist can work with a pencil and paper alone, > but in experimental and observational science instruments > are the only source of valid information. UFO-ology will > never be a science until people devise instruments to capture > them, such digital cameras that trigger automatically. > (UFO-cams.) Surely you're not suggesting that our nation's highly sophisticated intelligence gathering instrumentation network (that probably DOES include UFO-cams) has not verified beyond a shadow of doubt that certain kinds of UFOs truly exist? And by "UFOs" I mean some kind of unknown craft that appears to be controlled by some form of foreign (to us) intelligence. The point I'm trying to suggest here is that this particular subject and others like it remain scientifically unsupportable more for political and cultural reasons than the fact that on the surface no scientific evidence appears to exist to back up the extraordinary claims. Government UFO Reports, like the notorious one headed by Professor Condon from the 1960s, was indicative of the kind of suppression and just plain out-right ridicule of the evidence that occurred. The suppression of evidence probably is still going on today. It seems to me that they (specific sectors of our government) simply don't know what to do with the scientific data, the UFO-ology evidence. The pesky things don't seem to follow orders. They come and go as they please. The don't leave calling cards. How rude of them! It's best to relegate them to the X-Files cabinet and be done with it. But don't tell me it will "never be a science until people devise instruments to capture them". In my view sufficient evidence has already been captured ad nausea, and particularly within our highly sophisticated intelligence gathering network (HSIGN). As a society, I suspect we're really not ready to address the implications, and so the subject and all the evidence that has managed to make it out into the public domain remains, mostly, a modern myth. Of course this is a personal opinion I'm expressing, and not scientific "fact. Never the less, I would be an absolute fool to assume our HSIGN hasn't acquired sufficient hard data within the last 50-60 years. They aren't that stupid. > I suppose they will resemble the instruments > that international teams of amateur astronomers are using to document > asteroids. > > There are times when the human senses substitute for > "instruments." One of the early breakthroughs in transistors > came about when a chemist smelled sulphur, and realized it > was doping the devices. The human sense of smell is remarkable, > and in the early 50s it was still rivaled chemical assay > techniques. Ed Storms says that he can see some details and > contrast in a microscope with the naked eye that a digital > or film camera will not capture. > > - Jed Which just goes to show that on occasion our own senses are occasionally the best instruments of all! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 12:04:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LJ3bxt008519; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:03:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LJ3Z85008482; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:03:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:03:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050721190308.009c083c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:03:08 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Resent-Message-ID: <1auMiC.A.XEC.GG_3CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:30 am 21/07/2005 -0400, Jed wrote: >There have been a few instances in which irreproducible but high-sigma CF >events occurred. The best examples are the 1985 explosion in Fleischmann >and Pon's lab, and Mizuno's 1991 massive heat after death event. Even >though these could not be reproduced, because of technical difficulties and >safety concerns, the researchers themselves never had the slightest doubt >the events were real, and anomalous. Never mind the bucket, what about the experiment (page 74 of your book: Nuclear Transmutation = The Reality of Cold Fusion) where Mizuno says, ========================================= One day when I performed this test an extraordinary thing happened. The sample colour suddenly changed from dark red to red, to yellow - a clear indication that the temperature was shooting up. The heat increased, the sample glowed white, and after ten or twenty seconds it began to melt. I thought this must be a reaction to the deuterium. In a panic I ran to the vacuum pump to remove the deuterium gas and the temperature gradually dropped. It was a quick reaction just as I had hoped for, but I could no longer ignore the fact that this research was potentially hazardous. ========================================= Of course it's bloody hazardous. For a scientist to complain about hazard is like a soldier complaining when people start shooting at him. If you join the army you must expect to get killed or seriously injured and you can't start moaning about it when you do. Exploring any unknown territory is obviously dangerous. Not only dangerous physically, but professionally and emotionally too when you return home to report what you have seen. One couldn't ask for a better example than P&F. Mizuno should have repeated the experiment and taken it to completion with a full video record. It's not as though the experiment was irreproducible, is it? He goes on to admit that with a further 20 specimens he got 15% "clear cases of excess heat." I'm sure an Edison would have been delighted with such a high incidence of reproducibility. Mizuno's failure to finish what he started may not amount to desertion in the face of the enemy but it certainly raises questions about dilettantism. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 13:24:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LKNi6A012577; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:23:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LKNfXf012553; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:23:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:23:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721154841.0398cd20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:22:59 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Grimer's makes unreasonable demands of Mizuno In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050721190308.009c083c pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050721190308.009c083c pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > It was a quick reaction just as I had > hoped for, but I could no longer ignore > the fact that this research was potentially > hazardous. > ========================================= > >Of course it's bloody hazardous. For a scientist >to complain about hazard is like a soldier >complaining when people start shooting at him. Mizuno has plenty of guts, and he was pulling glass shards out of his neck now long ago, but it would have been insane to continue working with closed steel cells after Andrew Riley's death. >Mizuno should have repeated the experiment and >taken it to completion with a full video record. He and I agree. >It's not as though the experiment was >irreproducible, is it? Yes, highly irreproducible. Also, extremely dangerous and expensive. I doubt he would have seen similar results with bulk Pd even if he had repeated it dozens of times. > He goes on to admit that >with a further 20 specimens he got 15% "clear >cases of excess heat." I'm sure an Edison would >have been delighted with such a high incidence >of reproducibility. Mizuno's failure to finish >what he started may not amount to desertion in >the face of the enemy but it certainly raises >questions about dilettantism. This is unreasonable. It took him 5 or 10 *years* to do those additional experiments. The materials and instruments cost him personally, out of pocket, over $100,000. Needless to say, practically no journal will publish these results, and he is persona non grata at the university. If he did not have tenure they would have ridden him out on a rail. He has not been promoted by or offered any assistance since 1989. He and the other researchers have suffered endless harassment, ridicule and abuse from the public, the press, and the university. He is a middle class professor with a full time teaching load. He is obligated to do regular electrochemistry research as well, and help grad students. How much more sacrifice do you demand of him? What more could he do? Should he be living in a refrigerator box on the street, having spent every his last yen on these experiments? No matter what happens, he will never see a single yen in royalties. All intellectual property goes to the Japanese government. More to the point, where will you find other people willing to do what he has done? If you insist that scientists must live like monks, and suffer outrageous abuse just because they want to do their jobs, no one will be willing to do research. He is, of course, still working on other, more promising and safer techniques. I do not think you have the right to demand that he sacrifice the rest of his life savings, and continue to do an experiment that blew another man's head off. Also, I do not see you or other members of Peanut Gallery anteing up for 100 grams of Pd, a quadrupole mass spec, or any of the other colorful toys one must have to do this research. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 13:32:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LKVfqf016319; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:31:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LKVcI4016268; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:31:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:31:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721162317.03987eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:31:04 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn In-Reply-To: <48u2ha$12dtua6 mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <48u2ha$12dtua6 mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Surely you're not suggesting that our nation's highly sophisticated >intelligence gathering instrumentation network (that probably DOES include >UFO-cams) has not verified beyond a shadow of doubt that certain kinds of >UFOs truly exist? I have no idea. I know next to nothing about UFOs. However, if they have not observed them, it would not surprise me, and I would not blame them. The government and the professional astronomers have not observed or cataloged many of the large and potentially dangerous asteroids. That task is being done by a world wide web of amateurs in cooperation with professional astronomers. The big telescopes are busy doing other things, and they are not well suited to the task. It calls for lots of little independent telescopes. Perhaps it would take something similar to find UFOs -- assuming, of course, UFOs exist. Along the same lines, I suppose the "highly sophisticated intelligence" organizations are busy just now, with this War on Terror in full swing. They probably do not have the resources or the skills to go looking for UFOs. Also, from what I have read, they are not highly sophisticated. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 14:04:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LL4T1p031200; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:04:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LL4RWA031186; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:04:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:04:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$17ual2t mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,134,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1340429405:sNHT23312822" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:04:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sez: ... > Along the same lines, I suppose the "highly sophisticated > intelligence" organizations are busy just now, with this > War on Terror in full swing. They probably do not have > the resources or the skills to go looking for UFOs. On this point I'm in agreement with you. All the more reason to file the disturbing evidence away in the X-Files cabinet. Not now! I'm busy! Except for an occasional infraction here and there, I suspect most UFOs do their best to observe the preservation of our current cultural values by prudently staying out of spear throwing range. I suspect "the Federation" if one truly exists out there in Star Trek land is not keen on the idea of having their craft being mistaken for a bunch of ravenous Jihad Loving reptilian messengers spawned from Satan's loins - or several other colorful cultural interpretations many in our population passionately cling to. > Also, > from what I have read, they are not highly sophisticated. > > - Jed This is probablly another subject worthy of endless debate! ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 14:21:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LLKuLZ005200; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:21:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LLKtSc005181; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:20:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:20:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050721212037.009c42e4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:20:37 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Grimer's makes unreasonable demands of Mizuno Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:22 pm 21/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >Grimer wrote: > >> It was a quick reaction just as I had >> hoped for, but I could no longer ignore >> the fact that this research was potentially >> hazardous. >> ========================================= >> >>Of course it's bloody hazardous. For a scientist >>to complain about hazard is like a soldier >>complaining when people start shooting at him. > >Mizuno has plenty of guts, and he was pulling glass shards out of his neck >now long ago, but it would have been insane to continue working with closed >steel cells after Andrew Riley's death. > > >>Mizuno should have repeated the experiment and >>taken it to completion with a full video record. > >He and I agree. > > >>It's not as though the experiment was >>irreproducible, is it? > >Yes, highly irreproducible. Also, extremely dangerous and expensive. I >doubt he would have seen similar results with bulk Pd even if he had >repeated it dozens of times. > > >> He goes on to admit that >>with a further 20 specimens he got 15% "clear >>cases of excess heat." I'm sure an Edison would >>have been delighted with such a high incidence >>of reproducibility. Mizuno's failure to finish >>what he started may not amount to desertion in >>the face of the enemy but it certainly raises >>questions about dilettantism. > >This is unreasonable. It took him 5 or 10 *years* to do those additional >experiments. The materials and instruments cost him personally, out of >pocket, over $100,000. Needless to say, practically no journal will publish >these results, and he is persona non grata at the university. If he did not >have tenure they would have ridden him out on a rail. He has not been >promoted by or offered any assistance since 1989. He and the other >researchers have suffered endless harassment, ridicule and abuse from the >public, the press, and the university. He is a middle class professor with >a full time teaching load. He is obligated to do regular electrochemistry >research as well, and help grad students. How much more sacrifice do you >demand of him? What more could he do? Should he be living in a refrigerator >box on the street, having spent every his last yen on these experiments? No >matter what happens, he will never see a single yen in royalties. All >intellectual property goes to the Japanese government. > >More to the point, where will you find other people willing to do what he >has done? If you insist that scientists must live like monks, and suffer >outrageous abuse just because they want to do their jobs, no one will be >willing to do research. > >He is, of course, still working on other, more promising and safer >techniques. I do not think you have the right to demand that he sacrifice >the rest of his life savings, and continue to do an experiment that blew >another man's head off. Also, I do not see you or other members of Peanut >Gallery anteing up for 100 grams of Pd, a quadrupole mass spec, or any of >the other colorful toys one must have to do this research. > >- Jed You would make a good defence barrister, Jed. 8-) In the light of the above I agree I was being very unreasonable. I think Mizuno definitely deserves being awarded the Mallove medal of honour for his sacrifices - the first stage on the road to scientific beatification. ;-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 14:31:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LLUU24009766; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:30:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LLURvK009724; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:30:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:30:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721171914.0398e4c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:29:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721162317.03987eb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <48u2ha$12dtua6 mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050721162317.03987eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >However, if they have not observed them, it would not surprise me, and I >would not blame them. The government and the professional astronomers have >not observed or cataloged many of the large and potentially dangerous >asteroids. . . . I meant to say that I suppose asteroids resemble UFOs, in that they show up at unpredictable times and places, and they are often close to the limits of detection. The big telescopes are not good at looking for asteroids. You can do a better job with many small custom-built telescopes equipped with high-res digital cameras and innovative new software. It would not surprise me to learn the same goes for UFOs. I read in the New York Times that in recent years, digital cameras have improved so much, amateur astronomers are capturing better images than the best observatories got 10 or 20 years ago. I wouldn't know, but perhaps intelligence surveillance equipment is not geared toward detecting UFOs, and perhaps innovative amateur equipment could do a better job. This is mere speculation, but suppose UFOs are common, so the big radars have been programmed to ignore them. After all, Russian ICBMs and smugglers flying in from Mexico never fly the way UFOs reportedly do. They have a different signature. Maybe someone decided the UFO signatures are noise, and eliminated them years ago. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 14:33:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LLVbSN010333; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:31:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LLVZvY010299; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:31:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:31:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050721213116.009cfe98 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:31:16 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:04 pm 21/07/2005 -0400, Steven wrote: > .... being mistaken for a bunch of > ravenous Jihad Loving reptilian messengers > spawned from Satan's loins - or several other > colorful cultural interpretations many in our > population passionately cling to. Careful Stevey - or you'll be accused of inciting a religious flame war - and Bill will have your guts for garters. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 15:28:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LMRpcq011331; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LMRnxf011306; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:27:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:27:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721174622.057cd1c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:27:26 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: You have to make a professional presentation In-Reply-To: <20050721171519.50188.qmail web33313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721110743.039839e0 pop.mindspring.com> <20050721171519.50188.qmail web33313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Christopher Arnold griped when I said F&P and Mizuno should have preserved the data better: >Respectfully, some people need funding to hire HELP, otherwise they use a >pencil and paper. It is not the fault of the discoverer that he ONLY >discovered the breakthrough that a hard working professional data cruncher >would never have bothered attempting, much less even think of. You do not need a professional data cruncher anymore. The interface boards from HP (or whatever they call it now) and these other companies all come with marvelous, sophisticated data collection software. Too sophisticated. Even I can't figure out what half these features do, and I used to make data collection gadgets like that back when Z-80 assembly language dinosaurs roamed the earth, making the boulders tremble. In my opinion, any researcher who is capable of building innovating new devices and performing valid experiments should also be capable of using modern computers and data collection. Apple computers in particular. Mizuno could certainly have done it. He rebuilds and maintains SEM and other equipment from the 1960s -- stuff with 8" floppy disks, for heaven sake. (Not just him; most professors at the underfunded Japanese National Universities use 30 and 40-year-old equipment.) If you need HELP, you must begin by making a professional presentation of your work. You must show your research in the best light, in a well-written presentation with properly labeled graphs, with error bars. If you can't do that I doubt you are capable of doing a real experiment. If you are too lazy to do that, you do not deserve funding. On very rare occasions I have seen amateur presentations with hand-drawn graphs and spelling mistakes, yet which described excellent research. Dennis Cravens used to put out work like that. The versions of his papers uploaded at LENR-CANR.org have been extensively cleaned up, with his permission, by me. (Who else?) Researchers from Russia and Japan often have difficulty with English, which is not their fault, so I give them a hand too. If we did not make these papers look presentable, very few people would bother to download them. I know that because I have left a few in their original state. People will not take the time to wade through badly written papers, and you can't blame them for that. I have waded through hundreds, and it is no picnic. >What if - Pons and Fleischmans had $30 Million to set up a lab, computers >and data collectors instead of them having the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC >establishment destroy them for daring to break new ground without their >approval? Actually, they were given $30 million, by Toyota. They were making good progress, too. It is a shame their supporter at Toyota died before they succeeded. >My device produces far hotter and more energetic plasma than the P&F >underwater arc discharge, the tritium monitor shows that a radioactive gas >is being detected and many New materials have been produced from reacting >with the plasma. . . . Great. Do you have any idea how many other people make similar claims? Take a number, join the crowd. Back of the line, please. I have heard from dozens of people who say they have Astounding New Breakthrough Machines. I have read hundreds of papers from these people. Most of them are suffering from a terminal case of Inventor's Disease. If I were to win the $170 million lottery, I would hand out millions to researchers who have done good work and deserve funding, but to be brutally frank, I would not give people like you one thin dime of funding. Not until you stop bitching about how the world treats you, and learn to present your information in a full, formal, academically correct way that will impress professional scientists. If you have a valid idea, and you can make a technically convincing presentation of it, and you are willing to make cut the kind of deal that a sane businessman would expect, I expect you could eventually get millions of dollars in funding. If you will not do these things, you will get nothing, and it will be entirely your fault. >This is just the way life is, but to insinuate that the fathers of >discovery ignorant for not doing everything according to scientific >protocol, when the $cientific attackers like MIT falsified the reports as >Dr. Mallove attested to, is a little unscientific - isn't it? Yes, they are ignorant. Scientific protocol exist for good reasons. What is your goal anyway? Why do you want to ignore or overthrow these protocols? Is that more important to you than convincing people to look at your work? You have a choice: you can revolutionize science, or you can invent your own private protocols, standards and vocabulary -- the way the Correas have done -- and the world will ignore you. You can't do both. Anyway, what kind of weird moral equivalency are you postulating here?!? The people at MIT are unprofessional scoundrels, so it is okay for you to be a sloppy nincompoop who does not bother to write things down or publish papers? Two wrongs make a right? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 15:28:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LMSGu1011480; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LMSD2S011444; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E021B2.5040504 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:29:06 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Article on energy in National Geographic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The National Geographic in the August issue has a good article on the energy problem. They even mention cold fusion - "A few scientists have claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar instead of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: No such luck." The article goes on to point out the most serious problems with hot fusion. Not bad, we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. However, something better work soon because the situation is getting serious. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 17:00:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LNxeJb015931; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:59:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LNxcW8015915; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:59:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:59:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vksc$17ju2fo mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,134,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1329531384:sNHT15192244" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:59:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sez: > I wouldn't know, but perhaps intelligence surveillance > equipment is not geared toward detecting UFOs, and perhaps > innovative amateur equipment could do a better job. This > is mere speculation, but suppose UFOs are common, so the > big radars have been programmed to ignore them. After all, > Russian ICBMs and smugglers flying in from Mexico never > fly the way UFOs reportedly do. They have a different > signature. Maybe someone decided the UFO signatures are > noise, and eliminated them years ago. To be honest, I suspect there may be a grain of truth to this line of speculation. I worked at the Space Astronomy Lab in Madison Wisconsin back in the mid 80s on a space shuttle mission. During my stint at the LAB I often felt as if the data the astronomers were trying to collect (within the Polarized Ultraviolet spectrum) was expected to conform to specific standards. The rest was "noise" that needed to be filtered out. "Uh...down in front please!" Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 17:27:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M0QjvP025722; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:27:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M0QhjH025671; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:26:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:26:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007301c58e53$bcde1d30$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Remote Viewing Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:24:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C58E32.35069520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <7-GSuD.A._QG.C1D4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C58E32.35069520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed and Others, Since you were recently discussing Remote Viewing, I thought you might = be interested in reading about the U.S. Government's Remote Viewer = program that ran for decades called "Stargate". They acheived some = remarkable results in this once classified Remote Viewing intelligence = gathering program. Read about it at: = http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/stargate.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C58E32.35069520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Jed and Others,
     
    Since you were recently discussing = Remote Viewing,=20 I thought you might be interested in reading about the U.S. Government's = Remote=20 Viewer program that ran for decades called "Stargate".   They = acheived=20 some remarkable results in this once classified Remote Viewing = intelligence=20 gathering program.  Read about it at:  http://www.f= as.org/irp/program/collect/stargate.htm
     
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C58E32.35069520-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 08:14:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6LFDoFK010821; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:14:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6LFDmRA010770; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:13:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:13:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006801c58e06$b9838780$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: "vortex" Subject: More O-P thoughts Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:13:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01C58DCC.09C33500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C58DCC.09C33500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is further elaboration of specific MAHG analytical details - which = tend to support the hypothesis that the operative OU rationale relates = to ortho-para hydrogen, and the rapidly alternating but asymmetric = conversion of the two isomers catalytically. The end result being the = coherence of ZPE energy at the frequency of the CMB. You may or may not have made the connection that the extra energy which = stored in ortho-hydrogen (which at the 300K level amounts to 75% of = total molecules) is exactly equal to the energy per molecule of a photon = of 21 cm wavelength (1.43 GHz). This is not a large amount of energy (as = the oft-quote "3 degrees K" of temperature indicates) - but it is = cumulative when confined and not much less than what you reheated your = coffee with this morning. The "flip" of isomeric spin is one of the = actual sources of the CMB (there are others), but the "cause" of the = flip is (arguably) ZPE itself, although many will question that = assertion.=20 This energy resource is not large in our 3-space, but it is enormous in = 4-space and can account to a fair fraction of the so-called "dark" = energy - if it is uniform through out the universe (as expected), rather = than located just at the far extremes. The fact that CMB is present at = all in our local environment, despite it being non-3-spatial, is = important. It is the one and only ZPE frequency which is measurable as = an independent energy resource. The suggestion being that to tap into = it, it is first necessary to provide an "interdimensional" gateway, but = this need not be something exotic. If the tiny geometry known as the = "Fermi" is the threshold to another dimension, as theoreticians have = been claiming for 50 years (FPU theory), then the proton is the only = massive particle in the periodic table which can serve as such a gateway = - even deuterium may be getting too large.=20 To accomplish this, one provides resonant H2 in a kind of "enticement" = motion, so that the lossless inelastic collisions provide the entrance = point for an "extra" energy component. Without getting too = anthropomorphic, this inherent *collision rate* becomes the = cosmic-hula-belly-go-go dance for ZPE. Ok, that is getting too = anthropomorphic, but it does provide a good analogy for the males of the = species. In order to determine an exact average collision rate of a gas with the = containment walls, or with each other, a detailed analysis using = integral calculus can to be carried out. However, we can estimate the = collision rate in a simpler way which considers the number of particles, = the volume, and the velocity of particles - this being related to = Graham's Law of Effusion, http://www.nyu.edu/classes/tuckerman/honors.chem/lectures/lecture_9/node3= .html The Lennard-Jones Potential is also important to ZPE coherence, as = Puthoff suggests:=20 http://www.fisica.uniud.it/~ercolessi/md/md/node15.html When molecules are driven into close proximity, such that the = Lennard-Jones Potential goes beyond the negative minimum "well" - this = seems to be where the ZPE extraction, or the Schwinger-Feynman-Tomanaga = "borrowing of energy from the vacuum" by the Electromagnetic = Interaction; dE =3D hbar/dt takes place resulting in O/U effects. = Colleagues like Fred Sparber think this alone is the MAHG energy source, = but I do not see the necessary asymmetry here which would make it = non-conservative (which asymmetry is easier to argue in the QM situation = of the ortho-para isomer). Getting back to earth, this could indicate that the best method by far = to "prime" this ZPE pump, is to employ the same 21 cm 1.42 GHz microwave = radiation which you are trying to entice to cross dimensions, so to = speak. This frequency is associated with hydrogen, of course, but that = could actually be "secondary" in that it is primarily a relic of ZPE and = hydrogen just happens to be the most common element, but at any rate - = it is the frequency which we are trying to cohere. Therefore, assuming = the gateway is narrow (or else this mechanism would have been noticed = previously) we must keep everything resonant and within a narrow range = so that the actual collision rate is optimum once the operating = temperature has been reached, and remains unchanged thereafter. We are = hoping that for every unit of input, to get 20 or more times the output. = If the collision rate somehow coheres considerably more of this = frequency than does the input, then OU will materialize, and though 20-1 = seems high, there are indications that the actual ratio is unlimited = insofar as a "chain reaction" would not be impossible, with a large = enough container. But then again, one could not cool that container fast = enough - so what we are left with is probably a very narrow regime. And = one might add - a serendipitous discovery (should any of this rambling = prove accurate). If the Moller tube is showing OU my best guess is that this is isomeric = shuttle is what is happening, but in more complicated technique than is = necessary, since the original experiment was designed for something else = entirely. At any rate, there are some easy ways to test parts of this = hypothesis, and plans are being made to do that, even without going to a = replication of the whole Naudin experiment. In trying to get a handle on ortho-para hydrogen thermodynamic processes = we have good numbers derived for H2 liquefaction: This task particular = takes 11.8 MJ/kg (to liquefy) without ortho/para conversion, but with = ortho/para conversion the theoretical requirement minimum increases to = 14.1 MJ/kg for hydrogen liquid. This indicates that 2.3 MJ/kg heat of = isomeric conversion, however, this appears to be an average which varies = by temperature. Another reference, NBS Monograph 168, "Selected = Properties of Hydrogen," McCarty et al. gives the figures of about 520 = J/g below 75K, but about 25 J/g at 300K. However that is only part of = the story. The next problem is that this is a "one-time" figure, and if = you have a high collision rate, then the grams present is multiplied by = the rate - but not the actual collision instead but the collision rate = resulting in isomeric change. IOW we can only guesstimate. For there to be an asymmetry, of course, the exothermic change must be = kinetic while the following endothermic reversion to ortho is not = "exactly" a thermal process but instead is an EM realignment, based on = QED considerations. That is where quantum spin comes in, and the EM = induced spin wave which can be thought of as another kind of nonthermal = catalysis. In the absolute ground state of para-hydrogen there is no = orbital angular momentum (its an s-state) and the spin of the electron = and proton are anti-aligned so that the hydrogen atom in its ground = state is a spin zero object. This indicates that a variable EM field = alone may be sufficient without any real "collision" to change ("pump") = the isomeric state back to ortho.=20 Why wouldn't this be conservative one may ask? That is where the "leap = of faith" comes in -involving ZPE and the hypothetical gateway to CMB = (but in a more robust intensity than we have yet been able to prove). I = want to highlight the weak links in this argument, in advance, so that = it can be probed around the edges - which I think is possible with some = minimal experimentation. To clear up one other misconception about a QM process that may be = involved at the wall interface, let's look at the BEC. Two fermions make = a boson and also two bosons make a boson. A fermion and a boson make a = fermion. The hydrogen atom is a boson because it's made of two fermions, = a proton and an electron. The hydrogen molecule, H2, is a boson because = it's made of two bosons. The molecule can be given angular momentum = from a photon, but that can only change the angular momentum by = multiples of one, so it's still a boson. Deuterium OTOH is a fermion because it's made of three fermions, a = proton, a neutron, and an electron. The D2 molecule is a boson because = it's made of two fermions. The HD molecule is a fermion. When cooled to = very low temperature, pure hydrogen or deuterium form a super fluid = which indicates that the molecules condense into a single ground state = and therefore form a Bose-Einstein condensate. HD will interfere with = this. More on that later. But the concept to keep in mind, if there is a = link to the BEC is that pressure, in the sense of containment within a = metal lattice (wall interface), is an entropy substitute for low = temperature - in that the same lowering of degrees of freedom can occur = in a "warm" lattice which give the effect of very low temperature. Normally the conversion from para-hydrogen to ortho purely by thermal = collisions at normal temperatures and pressures is pretty slow (years in = fact). It is easily confirmed that para-H2 will=20 'keep' for days without catalysis. In practice kinetic conversion occurs = mainly by hydrogen atom exchange between two H2 molecules. Some = substrates produce para-H2 rather than the equilibrium mix and some = orthohydrogen.. The situation is similar for D2 gas, except that the = ortho-D2 is the one that predominates at low temperatures. Of all the catalysts that are effective in the all important exothermic = reaction, iron oxide is the best discovered so far. However, for this = speculation to be valid for MAHG, it must be assumed that sputtered = tungsten is also effective - but that may only be in the situation where = the H2 molecule is actually absorbed into the metal lattice = (temporarily). The catalyst action will increase the conversion speed = but not the energy. The rate of increase has not been determined, but in = similar situations, increases in the rate of reaction have been seen on = the order of 10e9 or greater. This is another weak point in the = hypothesis which needs to be pinned down - the rate of catalysis and = whether actually absorption is necessary. Perhaps in this situation = sputtered tungsten is better than iron oxide, due to absorption.=20 I have a lot on information on this in the draft stages, but this should = be enough for now - to get any interested observers thinking and looking = for more holes and alternative hypotheses. I would suggest that = ultimately, if we become more comfortable with the Naudin measurements, = that it will become clearer that the device is NOT operating as planned, = as an atomic hydrogen type of device, as there is really no asymmetry = there. And in order to optimize it, it will still be necessary to = determine what the "real" source of the excess energy is. This may or = may not be isomeric molecular hydrogen - that is very unclear also, but = at least this and other attempted forays may have laid the groundwork = for finding a "possible" QM-related asymmetry - once more is known. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C58DCC.09C33500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Here is further elaboration of specific = MAHG=20 analytical details - which tend to support the  hypothesis that the = operative OU rationale relates to ortho-para hydrogen, and the rapidly=20 alternating but asymmetric conversion of the two isomers catalytically. = The end=20 result being the coherence of ZPE energy at the frequency of the = CMB.

    You=20 may or may not have made the connection that the extra energy which = stored in=20 ortho-hydrogen (which at the 300K level amounts to 75% of total = molecules) is=20 exactly equal to the energy per molecule of a photon of 21 = cm wavelength=20 (1.43 GHz). This is not a large amount of energy (as the oft-quote "3 = degrees K"=20 of temperature indicates) - but it is cumulative when confined and not = much less=20 than what you reheated your coffee with this morning. The "flip" of = isomeric=20 spin is one of the actual sources of the CMB (there are others), but the = "cause"=20 of the flip is (arguably) ZPE itself, although many will question that=20 assertion.

    This energy resource is not large in our 3-space, but = it is=20 enormous in 4-space and can account to a fair fraction of the so-called = "dark"=20 energy - if it is uniform through out the universe (as expected), rather = than=20 located just at the far extremes. The fact that CMB is present at all in = our=20 local environment, despite it being non-3-spatial, is important. It is = the one=20 and only ZPE frequency which is measurable as an independent energy = resource.=20 The suggestion being that to tap into it, it is first necessary to = provide an=20 "interdimensional" gateway, but this need not be something exotic. If = the tiny=20 geometry known as the "Fermi" is the threshold to another dimension, as=20 theoreticians have been claiming for 50 years (FPU theory), then the = proton is=20 the only massive particle in the periodic table which can serve as such = a=20 gateway - even deuterium may be getting too large.
     
    To accomplish this, one provides = resonant H2=20 in a kind of "enticement" motion, so that the lossless inelastic = collisions=20 provide the entrance point for an "extra" energy component. Without = getting too=20 anthropomorphic, this inherent *collision rate* becomes the=20 cosmic-hula-belly-go-go dance for ZPE. Ok, that is getting too = anthropomorphic,=20 but it does provide a good analogy for the males of the = species.
     
    In order to determine an exact average = collision=20 rate of a gas with the containment walls, or with each other, a detailed = analysis using integral calculus can to be carried out. However, we can = estimate=20 the collision rate in a simpler way which considers the number of = particles, the=20 volume, and the velocity of particles - this being related to Graham's = Law of=20 Effusion,
    http://www.nyu.edu/classes/tuckerman/honors.chem/lectures/= lecture_9/node3.html

    The Lennard-Jones Potential is also important to ZPE coherence, = as=20 Puthoff suggests: 
    http://w= ww.fisica.uniud.it/~ercolessi/md/md/node15.html
    When molecules are driven into close proximity, such that the=20 Lennard-Jones Potential goes beyond the negative minimum "well" - this = seems to=20 be where the ZPE extraction, or the Schwinger-Feynman-Tomanaga = "borrowing of=20 energy from the vacuum" by the Electromagnetic Interaction; dE =3D = hbar/dt =20 takes place resulting in O/U effects. Colleagues like Fred Sparber think = this=20 alone is the MAHG energy source, but I do not see the necessary = asymmetry here=20 which would make it non-conservative (which asymmetry is easier to argue = in the=20 QM situation of the ortho-para isomer).

    Getting back to earth, this could indicate that the best method = by far=20 to "prime" this ZPE pump, is to employ the same 21 cm 1.42 GHz microwave = radiation which you are trying to entice to cross dimensions, so to = speak. This=20 frequency is associated with hydrogen, of course, but that could = actually be=20 "secondary" in that it is primarily a relic of ZPE and hydrogen just = happens to=20 be the most common element, but at any rate - it is the frequency which = we are=20 trying to cohere. Therefore, assuming the gateway is narrow (or else = this=20 mechanism would have been noticed previously) we must keep everything = resonant=20 and within a narrow range so that the actual collision rate is optimum = once the=20 operating temperature has been reached, and remains unchanged = thereafter. We are=20 hoping that for every unit of input, to get 20 or more times the output. = If the=20 collision rate somehow coheres considerably more of  this frequency = than=20 does the input, then OU will materialize, and though 20-1 seems = high, there=20 are indications that the actual ratio is unlimited insofar as a "chain = reaction"=20 would not be impossible, with a large enough container. But then again, = one=20 could not cool that container fast enough - so what we are left with is = probably=20 a very narrow regime. And one might add - a serendipitous discovery = (should any=20 of this rambling prove accurate).
     
    If the Moller tube is showing OU my best guess is that this is = isomeric=20 shuttle is what is happening, but in more complicated technique = than is=20 necessary, since the original experiment was designed for something else = entirely. At any rate, there are some easy ways to test parts of this=20 hypothesis, and plans are being made to do that, even without going to a = replication of the whole Naudin experiment.

    In trying to get a = handle on=20 ortho-para hydrogen thermodynamic processes we have good numbers derived = for H2=20 liquefaction: This task particular takes 11.8 MJ/kg (to = liquefy)=20 without  ortho/para conversion, but with ortho/para conversion the=20 theoretical requirement minimum increases to 14.1 MJ/kg = for hydrogen=20 liquid. This indicates that 2.3 MJ/kg heat of isomeric conversion, = however,=20 this appears to be an average which varies by temperature. Another=20 reference, NBS Monograph 168, "Selected Properties of Hydrogen," = McCarty et=20 al.  gives the figures of about  520 J/g below 75K, but = about  25=20 J/g at 300K. However that is only part of the story. The next  = problem is=20 that this is a "one-time" figure, and if you have a high collision = rate,=20 then the grams present is multiplied by the rate - but not the = actual=20 collision instead but the collision rate resulting in isomeric = change. IOW=20 we can only guesstimate.

    For there to be an asymmetry, of course, = the=20 exothermic change must be kinetic while the following endothermic = reversion=20 to ortho is not "exactly" a thermal process but instead is an EM = realignment,=20 based on QED considerations. That is where quantum spin comes in, and = the EM=20 induced spin wave which can be thought of as another kind of nonthermal=20 catalysis. In the absolute ground state of para-hydrogen there = is no=20 orbital angular momentum (its an s-state) and the spin of the electron=20 and proton are anti-aligned so that the hydrogen atom in its =20 ground  state is a spin zero object. This indicates that a = variable EM=20 field alone may be sufficient without any real "collision" to = change=20 ("pump") the isomeric state back to ortho.
     
    Why wouldn't this be conservative one may ask? That is where the = "leap of=20 faith" comes in -involving ZPE and the hypothetical gateway to CMB (but = in a=20 more robust intensity than we have yet been able to prove). I want to = highlight=20 the weak links in this argument, in advance, so that it can be probed = around the=20 edges - which I think is possible with some minimal = experimentation.

    To=20 clear up one other misconception about a QM process that may be involved = at the=20 wall interface, let's look at the BEC. Two fermions make a boson and=20 also two bosons make a boson.  A fermion and a boson make a = fermion.=20 The hydrogen atom is a boson because it's made of two fermions, a proton = and an=20 electron. The hydrogen molecule, H2, is a boson because it's made = of two=20 bosons.  The molecule can be given angular momentum from a = photon, but=20 that can only change the angular momentum by multiples of one, so = it's=20 still a boson.

    Deuterium OTOH is a  fermion because it's = made of=20 three fermions, a proton, a neutron, and an  electron.  The D2 = molecule is a boson because it's made of two fermions.  The HD = molecule is a fermion. When cooled to very low temperature,  = pure=20 hydrogen or deuterium form a super fluid  which indicates that the=20 molecules condense  into a single ground state  and = therefore=20 form a Bose-Einstein condensate. HD will interfere with this. More on = that=20 later. But the concept to keep in mind, if there is a link to the BEC is = that=20 pressure, in the sense of containment within a metal lattice (wall = interface),=20 is an entropy substitute for low temperature - in that the = same=20 lowering of degrees of freedom can occur in a "warm" lattice which give = the=20 effect of very low temperature.

    Normally the conversion from=20 para-hydrogen to ortho purely by thermal collisions at normal = temperatures=20 and pressures is pretty slow (years in fact). It is easily confirmed = that=20 para-H2 will
    'keep' for days without catalysis. In practice kinetic=20 conversion occurs mainly by hydrogen atom exchange between two H2 = molecules.=20 Some substrates  produce para-H2 rather than the equilibrium mix = and some=20 orthohydrogen.. The situation is similar for D2 gas, except = that  the=20 ortho-D2 is the one  that predominates at low temperatures.
     
    Of all the catalysts that are effective in the all important = exothermic=20 reaction, iron oxide is the best discovered so far. However, for this=20 speculation to be valid for MAHG, it must be assumed that sputtered = tungsten is=20 also effective - but that may only be in the situation where the H2 = molecule is=20 actually absorbed into the metal lattice (temporarily). The = catalyst action=20 will increase the conversion speed but not the energy. The rate of = increase=20 has not been determined, but in similar situations, increases in the = rate of=20 reaction have been seen on the order of 10e9 or greater. This is another = weak=20 point in the hypothesis which needs to be pinned down - the rate of = catalysis=20 and whether actually absorption is necessary. Perhaps in this situation=20 sputtered tungsten is better than iron oxide, due to absorption. =

    I have=20 a lot on information on this in the draft stages, but this should be = enough for=20 now - to get any interested observers thinking and looking for more = holes and=20 alternative hypotheses. I would suggest that ultimately, if we become = more=20 comfortable with the Naudin measurements, that it will become clearer = that the=20 device is NOT operating as planned, as an atomic hydrogen type of = device,=20 as there is really no asymmetry there. And in order to optimize it, it = will=20 still be necessary to determine what the "real" source of the excess = energy is.=20 This may or may not be isomeric molecular hydrogen - that is very = unclear=20 also, but at least this and other attempted forays may have laid the = groundwork=20 for finding a "possible" QM-related asymmetry - once more is = known.
     
    Jones
    ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C58DCC.09C33500-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 18:37:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M1aZpW019013; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:36:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M1aXlJ018994; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:36:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:36:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:04:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <42E021B2.5040504 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <42E021B2.5040504 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507212204.28853.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 21 July 2005 18:29, Edmund Storms wrote: > The National Geographic in the August issue has a good article on the > energy problem. They even mention cold fusion - "A few scientists have > claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar > instead of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: No such > luck." The article goes on to point out the most serious problems with > hot fusion. Not bad, we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. > However, something better work soon because the situation is getting > serious. > > Ed It will work when the overpaid and overfed oil billionaires run out of somebody elses oil to sell to gullible sheep of the likes 'o us. Witness the last decade or so of fruitless wrangling over where the ITER will be built, and the previous ludditism in the USA in Texas that guaranteed that the superconducting supercollider will not be built be Americans or free worlders for that matter. Most likely it will be built by the Russians or the French if we are lucky, and by the Chinese if we are not. That is OK, it was maoist agitation that generated the initial opposition to it in the USA, so it is only fitting that the victor in that struggle get the spoils.....but I hate to be on the losing end in a fight that was decided by spineless politicos 20 years ago. As far as sonofusion is concerned, I have a few ideas, but then I'd have to copyright the letter and reserve all the rights so that Bill Gates, Dick Cheney VP-USA/Prez-HalliburtonOil/CEO of Iraq or some other exec could not steal the idea and then prosecute the originator of the idea, me, for 'thinksquatting' ---thinking of an original idea and not willingly and hurriedly giving it away to some megacorporation. But wait, only the copyrights of big corps have any validity anyway, don't they. Just ask the ghost of Billie Holliday! Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 19:46:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M2jmUb013154; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:46:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M2jluT013132; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:45:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c58e67$63ac2950$73037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Verdict so far!! Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:45:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C58E3D.7A55A6B0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C58E3D.7A55A6B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C58E3D.7A575460" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C58E3D.7A575460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankEd should copyright it!! It's a " natural "sez Jed ! Meanwhile back at the ranch all uz non wizards arre left to speculate, = Here goes another one.. The sun !. Ah so . The sun may be a "repeating" station that receives = energy in one " form" and transmits it in another. The=20 "another" has been studied and some very good science has been the = result. Not conclusive, but good science.=20 If we consider a " cycling" takes place rather than looking at the sun = as an energy source in itself, another door may open to trying to imagine the " form" of cycling that occurs. The energy = received would have to be in a " form" unknown to present science. I have read the posts on remote viewing. We could use a vision on CF. I = suggest CF may be able to be identified in several forms, one being the = recycling or ' recharging" the sun. To do so, the form of recharging of = energy would have to be transmitted in a medium we do not understand. = One clue to would be to observe solar flares as similar to what occurs = with an arc welder. The received energy may be be manifested in this = observable event. In a past post, I speculated that black holes may be a form of power = factor correction capacitors. In another post I speculated the earth may = function as a form of heat sink. Lets look at the earth in focus. Deep = snow ice inhabits the north and south poles and a weather system is in = phase ( as well as we can hope ). The existence of cold and snow at the = poles is an anomaly. There should not be such an extreme temperature = differential on the surface of the earth sphere. One expalnation I = suggested is the earth can be visualized as a double ended vortex tube = that produces cold at the ends and heat at the middle. Foolish and = absurd in its conjecture yet we have yet to touch vortex science as a = prelude to conceptualizing CF. Another conjecture regarding the earth = sphere would be to consider the earth core as frozen rather than = superheated where the core is surrounded by heated ligiud plasma as the = result of acting as a heat sink. This nonsense would give pause to = those scientists studying magnetism, gravity and gyroscopes. In = particular should the inner core be in a rotational mode. hmmm. Cf as we use the word , may be a defense mechanism alone or it may be a = tapping into a " return to phase energy". It's usefulness may ,or may not be possible. For sure we need a new = vision. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C58E3D.7A575460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Ed should copyright it!! It's a " natural "sez Jed !
     
    Meanwhile back at the ranch all uz non wizards arre left to = speculate, Here=20 goes another one..
     
    The sun !. Ah so . The sun may be a "repeating" station that = receives=20 energy in one " form" and transmits it in another. The
    "another" has been studied and some very good science has been the = result.=20 Not conclusive, but good science.
    If we consider a " cycling" takes place rather than looking at the = sun as=20 an energy source in itself, another door may open to
    trying to imagine the " form" of cycling that occurs. The energy = received=20 would have to be in a " form"  unknown to present science.
    I have read the posts on remote viewing. We could use a vision = on CF.=20 I suggest CF may be able to be identified in several forms, one being = the=20 recycling or ' recharging" the sun. To do so, the form of recharging of = energy=20 would have to be transmitted in a medium we do not understand. One clue = to would=20 be to observe solar flares as similar to what occurs with an arc welder. = The=20 received energy may be be manifested in this observable event.
     
    In a past post, I speculated that black holes may be a form of = power=20 factor correction capacitors. In another post I speculated the earth may = function as a form of heat sink. Lets look at the earth in focus. Deep = snow ice=20 inhabits the north and south poles and a weather system is in phase ( as = well as=20 we can hope ). The existence of cold and snow at the poles is an = anomaly. There=20 should not be such an extreme temperature differential on the surface of = the=20 earth sphere. One expalnation I suggested is the earth can be visualized = as a=20 double ended vortex tube that produces cold at the ends and heat at the = middle.=20 Foolish and absurd in its conjecture yet we have yet to touch vortex = science as=20 a prelude to conceptualizing CF. Another conjecture regarding the earth = sphere=20 would be to consider the earth core as frozen rather than superheated = where the=20 core is surrounded by heated ligiud plasma as the result of acting = as a=20 heat sink. This  nonsense would give pause to those scientists = studying=20 magnetism, gravity and gyroscopes. In particular should the inner core = be in a=20 rotational mode. hmmm.
    Cf as we use the word , may be a defense mechanism alone or = it may be=20 a tapping into a " return to phase energy".
    It's usefulness may ,or may not be possible. For sure we need a new = vision.
     
    Richard

     

    ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C58E3D.7A575460-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C58E3D.7A55A6B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c58e67$6314cb50$73037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C58E3D.7A55A6B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 21 19:50:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M2ntQc014700; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:50:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M2nr3o014679; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:49:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:49:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=KrRKu5CLPqcCytsy+s+R3Zf+1R925cR51eCneY6boe3CgzGrfuVQH1QwejysF0T44GZvczuXXkWtuKwNhaZV0AckibIQMVHfGoCarte+KC2GRj8aWnNlq4IOdhkaoaqTR1dwzyBHFjqtbacjNee6bK/sf7aObTDrfX9PQBmS4uo= ; Message-ID: <20050722024927.65619.qmail web33311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:49:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: You have to make a professional presentation To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721174622.057cd1c0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-686508879-1122000567=:65549" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-686508879-1122000567=:65549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jed, I agree with you, I must be a sloppy nincompoop. Before I started RV and inventing, I had a jewelry store that just grossed $250K - and I destroyed my income by discovering a new technology and then patenting it myself and used the rest of my life savings building the prototypes and paying for testing that nobody would believe. Actually I feel more like a jackass, but nincompoop works too. A professional proposal, you mean like my 79 page Private Placement Memorandum, or did you mean the Power Point presentation. The problem with both of those is that every $cientist that reviewed the patent for prospective investors said for starters the patent was "Impossible" and therefore all the supporting data, such as from Charles Evans, the City University of Hong Kong, Raman spectra from Renishaw and Kaiser must all be fabricated. Jed, you are a very intelligent man. On the other hand - you are still not able to advise me how to convince profe$$ional $cientists that already know that new Plasma Technologies are never discovered by a Professional Jeweler. Warm Regards, Chris Jed Rothwell wrote: Christopher Arnold griped when I said F&P and Mizuno should have preserved the data better: >Respectfully, some people need funding to hire HELP, otherwise they use a >pencil and paper. It is not the fault of the discoverer that he ONLY >discovered the breakthrough that a hard working professional data cruncher >would never have bothered attempting, much less even think of. You do not need a professional data cruncher anymore. The interface boards from HP (or whatever they call it now) and these other companies all come with marvelous, sophisticated data collection software. Too sophisticated. Even I can't figure out what half these features do, and I used to make data collection gadgets like that back when Z-80 assembly language dinosaurs roamed the earth, making the boulders tremble. In my opinion, any researcher who is capable of building innovating new devices and performing valid experiments should also be capable of using modern computers and data collection. Apple computers in particular. Mizuno could certainly have done it. He rebuilds and maintains SEM and other equipment from the 1960s -- stuff with 8" floppy disks, for heaven sake. (Not just him; most professors at the underfunded Japanese National Universities use 30 and 40-year-old equipment.) If you need HELP, you must begin by making a professional presentation of your work. You must show your research in the best light, in a well-written presentation with properly labeled graphs, with error bars. If you can't do that I doubt you are capable of doing a real experiment. If you are too lazy to do that, you do not deserve funding. On very rare occasions I have seen amateur presentations with hand-drawn graphs and spelling mistakes, yet which described excellent research. Dennis Cravens used to put out work like that. The versions of his papers uploaded at LENR-CANR.org have been extensively cleaned up, with his permission, by me. (Who else?) Researchers from Russia and Japan often have difficulty with English, which is not their fault, so I give them a hand too. If we did not make these papers look presentable, very few people would bother to download them. I know that because I have left a few in their original state. People will not take the time to wade through badly written papers, and you can't blame them for that. I have waded through hundreds, and it is no picnic. >What if - Pons and Fleischmans had $30 Million to set up a lab, computers >and data collectors instead of them having the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC >establishment destroy them for daring to break new ground without their >approval? Actually, they were given $30 million, by Toyota. They were making good progress, too. It is a shame their supporter at Toyota died before they succeeded. >My device produces far hotter and more energetic plasma than the P&F >underwater arc discharge, the tritium monitor shows that a radioactive gas >is being detected and many New materials have been produced from reacting >with the plasma. . . . Great. Do you have any idea how many other people make similar claims? Take a number, join the crowd. Back of the line, please. I have heard from dozens of people who say they have Astounding New Breakthrough Machines. I have read hundreds of papers from these people. Most of them are suffering from a terminal case of Inventor's Disease. If I were to win the $170 million lottery, I would hand out millions to researchers who have done good work and deserve funding, but to be brutally frank, I would not give people like you one thin dime of funding. Not until you stop bitching about how the world treats you, and learn to present your information in a full, formal, academically correct way that will impress professional scientists. If you have a valid idea, and you can make a technically convincing presentation of it, and you are willing to make cut the kind of deal that a sane businessman would expect, I expect you could eventually get millions of dollars in funding. If you will not do these things, you will get nothing, and it will be entirely your fault. >This is just the way life is, but to insinuate that the fathers of >discovery ignorant for not doing everything according to scientific >protocol, when the $cientific attackers like MIT falsified the reports as >Dr. Mallove attested to, is a little unscientific - isn't it? Yes, they are ignorant. Scientific protocol exist for good reasons. What is your goal anyway? Why do you want to ignore or overthrow these protocols? Is that more important to you than convincing people to look at your work? You have a choice: you can revolutionize science, or you can invent your own private protocols, standards and vocabulary -- the way the Correas have done -- and the world will ignore you. You can't do both. Anyway, what kind of weird moral equivalency are you postulating here?!? The people at MIT are unprofessional scoundrels, so it is okay for you to be a sloppy nincompoop who does not bother to write things down or publish papers? Two wrongs make a right? - Jed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-686508879-1122000567=:65549 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Jed,
     
    I agree with you, I must be a sloppy nincompoop. Before I started RV and inventing, I had a jewelry store that just grossed $250K - and I destroyed my income by discovering a new technology and then patenting it myself and used the rest of my life savings building the prototypes and paying for testing that nobody would believe. Actually I feel more like a jackass, but nincompoop works too.
     
    A professional proposal, you mean like my 79 page Private Placement Memorandum, or did you mean the Power Point presentation. The problem with both of those is that every $cientist that reviewed the patent for prospective investors said for starters the patent was "Impossible" and therefore all the supporting data, such as from Charles Evans, the City University of Hong Kong, Raman spectra from Renishaw and Kaiser must all be fabricated.
     
    Jed, you are a very intelligent man. On the other hand - you are still not able to advise me how to convince profe$$ional $cientists that already know that new Plasma Technologies are never discovered by a Professional Jeweler.
     
    Warm Regards,
    Chris


    Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
    Christopher Arnold griped when I said F&P and Mizuno should have preserved
    the data better:

    >Respectfully, some people need funding to hire HELP, otherwise they use a
    >pencil and paper. It is not the fault of the discoverer that he ONLY
    >discovered the breakthrough that a hard working professional data cruncher
    >would never have bothered attempting, much less even think of.

    You do not need a professional data cruncher anymore. The interface boards
    from HP (or whatever they call it now) and these other companies all come
    with marvelous, sophisticated data collection software. Too sophisticated.
    Even I can't figure out what half these features do, and I used to make
    data collection gadgets like that back when Z-80 assembly language
    dinosaurs roamed the earth, making the boulders tremble.

    In my opinion, any researcher who is capable of building innovating new
    devices and performing valid experiments should also be capable of using
    modern computers and data collection. Apple computers in particular. Mizuno
    could certainly have done it. He rebuilds and maintains SEM and other
    equipment from the 1960s -- stuff with 8" floppy disks, for heaven sake.
    (Not just him; most professors at the underfunded Japanese National
    Universities use 30 and 40-year-old equipment.)

    If you need HELP, you must begin by making a professional presentation of
    your work. You must show your research in the best light, in a well-written
    presentation with properly labeled graphs, with error bars. If you can't do
    that I doubt you are capable of doing a real experiment. If you are too
    lazy to do that, you do not deserve funding.

    On very rare occasions I have seen amateur presentations with hand-drawn
    graphs and spelling mistakes, yet which described excellent research.
    Dennis Cravens used to put out work like that. The versions of his papers
    uploaded at LENR-CANR.org have been extensively cleaned up, with his
    permission, by me. (Who else?) Researchers from Russia and Japan often have
    difficulty with English, which is not their fault, so I give them a hand
    too. If we did not make these papers look presentable, very few people
    would bother to download them. I know that because I have left a few in
    their original state. People will not take the time to wade through badly
    written papers, and you can't blame them for that. I have waded through
    hundreds, and it is no picnic.


    >What if - Pons and Fleischmans had $30 Million to set up a lab, computers
    >and data collectors instead of them having the ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC
    >establishment destroy them for daring to break new ground without their
    >approval?

    Actually, they were given $30 million, by Toyota. They were making good
    progress, too. It is a shame their supporter at Toyota died before they
    succeeded.


    >My device produces far hotter and more energetic plasma than the P&F
    >underwater arc discharge, the tritium monitor shows that a radioactive gas
    >is being detected and many New materials have been produced from reacting
    >with the plasma. . . .

    Great. Do you have any idea how many other people make similar claims? Take
    a number, join the crowd. Back of the line, please.

    I have heard from dozens of people who say they have Astounding New
    Breakthrough Machines. I have read hundreds of papers from these people.
    Most of them are suffering from a terminal case of Inventor's Disease. If I
    were to win the $170 million lottery, I would hand out millions to
    researchers who have done good work and deserve funding, but to be brutally
    frank, I would not give people like you one thin dime of funding. Not until
    you stop bitching about how the world treats you, and learn to present your
    information in a full, formal, academically correct way that will impress
    professional scientists. If you have a valid idea, and you can make a
    technically convincing presentation of it, and you are willing to make cut
    the kind of deal that a sane businessman would expect, I expect you could
    eventually get millions of dollars in funding. If you will not do these
    things, you will get nothing, and it will be entirely your fault.


    >This is just the way life is, but to insinuate that the fathers of
    >discovery ignorant for not doing everything according to scientific
    >protocol, when the $cientific attackers like MIT falsified the reports as
    >Dr. Mallove attested to, is a little unscientific - isn't it?

    Yes, they are ignorant. Scientific protocol exist for good reasons. What is
    your goal anyway? Why do you want to ignore or overthrow these protocols?
    Is that more important to you than convincing people to look at your work?
    You have a choice: you can revolutionize science, or you can invent your
    own private protocols, standards and vocabulary -- the way the Correas have
    done -- and the world will ignore you. You can't do both.

    Anyway, what kind of weird moral equivalency are you postulating here?!?
    The people at MIT are unprofessional scoundrels, so it is okay for you to
    be a sloppy nincompoop who does not bother to write things down or publish
    papers? Two wrongs make a right?

    - Jed


    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail.yahoo.com --0-686508879-1122000567=:65549-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 00:09:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M78oTE027537; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:09:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M78mUE027530; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:08:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:08:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050722070826.009cf078 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:08:26 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Cc: victor_gankin hotmail.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been re-reading Putterman's remarkably frank and intelligible New Scientist article..... http://www.physics.ucla.edu/Sonoluminescence/sono.pdf and found two very significant points which have a direct bearing on the effect of reduced Beta-atmosphere pressures. The first bit which drew my attention was this. ========================================== ...Based on my intuition I replied that I did not believe sonoluminescence was possible. But he insisted that this effect had been docu- mented some time ago. So along with Ritva Lofstedt who was then a U.C.L.A. undergraduate, I went back through the old papers to see if sonoluminescence was for real. In the 1920s and 1930s, we learned, chemists working with loudspeakers de- veloped for sonar systems during World War I came across an interesting phe- nomena: a strong sound field could catalyze reactions that take place in an aqueous solution... ========================================== Why does it catalyze materials. Simply this. Inside materials and even more obviously, inside cavitation holes we have a reduced Beta-atmosphere pressure and chemistry is very different to what it would be outside. I have realised for some time that the B-a must be at the root of catalysis thanks to the genius of Victor Gankin whose article and book, =========================== How Chemical Bonds Form and Chemical Reactions Proceed. =========================== alerted me to the fact that there was Something Rotten in the State of Chemistry. Indeed, last year I even drew attention to his brilliant insights in the following post which I've dug up from the Vortex archives. ======================================================== Solid State Fusion Technologies, an interesting web site From: Grimer Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 09:15:39 ------------------------------------------- Following up Steven Johnson's suggestion to check out http://www.d2fusion.com/ I found some interesting photos at http://www.d2fusion.com/volcanoes.html In particular the fourth photo which resembles Mizuno's vortices. I suggest that this is clear evidence of molten material being sucked down into an high pF cavity. The article claims that "the bubbles which produce the driving force for the reactions are smaller than these 1 micron spheres" but this neglects the phenomena of cavitation bubbles aggregating to produce much larger high pF cavities. A mention is also made of catalysis. It seems to me that the phenomena of cold fusion could well be a case of macro- catalysis. I have always found it remarkable that the chemical industry is so massively dependent on catalysis, a process which seem to be very little understood. The following book review give some idea of the problem. --------------------------------------------------------- HOW CHEMICAL BONDS FORM AND CHEMICAL REACTIONS PROCEED Author: Victor Gankin, Yuriy Gankin This is an unusual book in many ways. It outlines a new approach to the explanation of the most important chemical phenomena: chemical bonding and chemical reactions. The commonly accepted theory of matter structure based on the corpuscle-wave dualism of an electron is well known. The idea was formulated by Louis de Broglie in 1923 and was confirmed by diffraction experiments which Davisson and Germer carried out in 1927. Since then nobody ever returned to these experiments and all the scientists attempts were focused on the search for the approximation method for solving the Schroedinger equation which has no solution for multi-electronic systems. Besides, the following questions were not considered by the scientists: 1) Why don't all chemical reactions proceed if they are thermodynamically possible? 2) Why do many chemical reactions proceed at room temperature, while, in order to break a chemical bond at molecule thermal excitation, we have to heat it up to several thousand degrees? 3) Why is the activation energy in most of the chemical reactions much smaller than the energies of the chemical bonds that break during the chemical reactions? The search for the answers to these questions has led the authors to the development of a new theory - The G Theory of Chemical Bonding and Chemical Reactions. The principles of this theory are described in the book under review. -------------------------------------------------------- I'm sure Vortexians will appreciate the significance of these questions. 8-) Cheers Frank Grimer ======================================================== Perhaps I was being rather too optimistic about Vorts appreciating the significance, eh! ;-) My fault for not spelling it out more clearly but I was probably suffering from Newland's Syndrome and afraid of being accused of Millsian Megalomania. 8-) Vortex groupies are very tolerant of "taboo physics" - to use Beaty's expression - but presumably even they have their limits. Since the ducks are all beginning to line up rather nicely I'll spell it out now. Catalysis and Gankin's penetrating questions arise from the total ignorance of the existence and the operations of the Beta-atmosphere (and Gamma come to that). Clearly, the abandonment of the Aether was one of the most disastrous mistakes ever made in the history of scientific endeavour. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 00:50:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M7nuGO010391; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:50:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M7nssl010359; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:49:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:49:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:49:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Permanent Magnetic motor Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <-urna.A.zhC.iUK4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Someone posted the URL http://cycclone.com/welcome/page1.php . I sent them an email asking if they had a working prototype and if they were giving demonstrations. That was several days ago and I haven't received a reply. It would be great if it worked, but IMHO, there is no reason for it to work, and they are looking for investors. If anyone has a theoretical reason for it's operation, or has other information, please let me know. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 01:23:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M8MirD022452; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:23:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M8Mhus022443; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:22:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:22:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:22:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: some technical questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <4sQ6rC.A.jeF.SzK4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My nephew was home last weekend. We got into it. I felt that it was my avuncular duty to warn him that he is living at ground zero of one of Al Queda's prime targets, NYC's Times Square. That just make him hostile. Then I mentioned the ITER. He works for an electricity generating company, and opined that it's development is a wise use of government funds. He's totally bought into the belief of it's producing energy sometime in the next 1/2 century. He knows better than to spend his corporation's funds on the ITER's development, With all the manners of a cornered tiger, he then attacked cold fusion as unreproduceable and something that only morons like myself believe in. He continued that the ITER has been shown to work on a small scale. IMHO, the small scale he's talking about referring to is a short period of time. Last evening I was discussing the coming nuclear war with a friend. He says that Gieger Counters are difficult to find and expensive. He also contends that a satellite, equipped with a detector for Gamma radiation would be able to detect a nuclear bomb from orbit. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 02:10:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M99mpX008912; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:10:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M99kIi008882; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:09:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:09:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dE/o3iMcZgNNd/TLPfYdszzYHZA2q0cpaTzLzSDOhJ94X5HE9bSjAqX9W7wPB6tI; Message-ID: <410-2200575228947590 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:09:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fa24c489e067bed2e3e4624671e8fbf4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.51 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones. Mean Free Path & Collision Frequency: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/inecon.html Moment of Inertia of a Sphere: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/isph.html Moment of Inertia of a Hoop: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ihoop.html#ihoop Rotational Kinetic Energy: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rke.html#rke Rotational Kinetic Energy of a Particle: mvr = h/2(pi) = 1.05E-34 Joule For Good Measure :-) : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html Two protons in a H2 molecule separated by a distance R of 1.0E-10 meters experience a coulomb repulsive force F = kq^2/R^2 = 2.304E-8 nt and have a potential energy E = kq^2/R joules. A hard ball thermal collision can force the two protons closer together and if assisted by the Casimir Force the result is free energy in the amount of the Casimir energy contribution. Go Figure. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Jones.
     
    Mean Free Path & Collision Frequency:
     
     
     
     
    Moment of Inertia of a Sphere:
     
     
    Moment of Inertia of a Hoop:
     
     
    Rotational Kinetic Energy:
     
     
    Rotational Kinetic Energy of a Particle: mvr = h/2(pi)  = 1.05E-34 Joule
    For Good Measure :-)  :
     
     
     
     
    Two protons in a H2 molecule separated by a distance R of 1.0E-10 meters experience a coulomb repulsive force  F = kq^2/R^2 = 2.304E-8 nt  and have
    a potential energy E = kq^2/R   joules.
     
    A hard ball thermal collision can force the two protons closer together
    and if assisted by the Casimir Force the result is free energy in the amount
    of the Casimir energy contribution.
     
    Go Figure.   :-)
     
    Frederick
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 02:43:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6M9hED2023492; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:43:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6M9hBEm023460; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:43:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:43:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=IZ9/GKg2q9X3JW5kSPdv3aXt2MIPbv8gdalWqW9J+MAguETsYo33P/54pEeXpGVR; Message-ID: <410-2200575228432150 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:43:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408be52d33ec057f6c90959c52975ffd8f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.168 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The GSU site can be difficult. Mean Free Path & Collision Frequency: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/frecol.html#c1 Try 76 torr (mm Hg) 300 K and ~ 1360 Torr @ 5400 K 2 AMU & 1.32E-10 meter H2 molecule diameter. Collision frequency = 1.423E9 per second. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
    The GSU site can be difficult.
     
     
    Mean Free Path & Collision Frequency:
     
     
     
    Try 76 torr (mm Hg)   300 K   and ~ 1360 Torr  @ 5400 K
     
    2 AMU   &   1.32E-10 meter H2 molecule diameter.
     
    Collision frequency = 1.423E9 per second.   :-)
     
    Frederick
    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 03:50:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MAoAg3018753; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:50:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MAo82V018735; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:50:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:50:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=NxJGJs57LN63Olm0TqS6xLAFR8dhEBH08vsf37orRnaT4MLATVNsH79ilOKOVskS; Message-ID: <410-2200575229507370 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:50:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408007c6363573aed7ab38a2e3b7f45c31350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII GSU, Pressure-Volume -Temperature Calculator: MAHG, Initial 300 K 76 mm Hg (10.13 kPa) 0.5 liter volume Final 100 watts 1140 mm Hg (151.95 kPa) 4500 K Effective Temp of H2 Molecules. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/idegasc.html#c1 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    GSU,  Pressure-Volume -Temperature Calculator:
     
    MAHG,  Initial 300 K 76 mm Hg   (10.13 kPa)  0.5 liter volume
     
    Final 100 watts  1140 mm Hg (151.95 kPa)   4500 K  Effective Temp of H2 Molecules.
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 04:50:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MBoIG9011179; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:50:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MBoHLO011156; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:50:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:50:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c58eb3$754910a0$df027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:49:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C58E89.8BEC9A90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, UP_TO_OR_MORES,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C58E89.8BEC9A90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C58E89.8BEE2130" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C58E89.8BEE2130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote.. >A mention is also made of catalysis. It=20 seems to me that the phenomena of cold=20 fusion could well be a case of macro- catalysis. Have been interested in Putterman's work for some 10 years in regards to = cavitation studies. Frank, a simple proof of principle of your thoughts on catalysis can be = observed with the mixing of a two part exoxy. Try mixing a cubic inch = square mold full versus a thin film layer on a surface. The reaction and = hardening time differs whereas the cubic inch mold reaction time will be = up to 12 or more times faster than the thin film. This should not be. = The thin film should harden faster than the cube. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C58E89.8BEE2130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Grimer wrote..

    >A mention is also made of catalysis. It
    seems to me that the=20 phenomena of cold
    fusion could well be a case of = macro-
    catalysis.

    Have been interested in Putterman's work for some 10 years in regards = to=20 cavitation studies.

    Frank, a simple proof of principle of your thoughts on catalysis can = be=20 observed with the mixing of a two part exoxy. Try mixing a cubic inch = square=20 mold full versus a thin film layer on a surface. The reaction and = hardening time=20 differs whereas the cubic inch mold reaction time will be up to 12 or = more times=20 faster than the thin film. This should not be. The thin film should = harden=20 faster than the cube.

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C58E89.8BEE2130-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C58E89.8BEC9A90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c58eb3$74ad1ec0$df027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C58E89.8BEC9A90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 05:44:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MChXRO001345; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:43:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MChSgk001287; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:43:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:43:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <000f01c58eba$e8626170$d850ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: some technical questions Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:18:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "thomas malloy" Subject: some technical questions > My nephew was home last weekend. We got into it. > > I felt that it was my avuncular duty to warn him that he is living at > ground zero of one of Al Queda's prime targets, NYC's Times Square. > That just make him hostile. > > Then I mentioned the ITER. He works for an electricity generating > company, and opined that it's development is a wise use of government > funds. He's totally bought into the belief of it's producing energy > sometime in the next 1/2 century. > > He knows better than to spend his corporation's funds on the ITER's > development, With all the manners of a cornered tiger, he then > attacked cold fusion as unreproduceable and something that only > morons like myself believe in. He continued that the ITER has been > shown to work on a small scale. IMHO, the small scale he's talking > about referring to is a short period of time. > > Last evening I was discussing the coming nuclear war with a friend. > He says that Gieger Counters are difficult to find and expensive. I doubt it, they are (were) used for uranium prospecting. Nothing very complicated. > > He also contends that a satellite, equipped with a detector for Gamma > radiation would be able to detect a nuclear bomb from orbit. Before or after it explodes? No way *before* it explodes. After, plenty of other evidence. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 06:09:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MD8RDL018687; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:08:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MD8NrJ018629; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:08:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:08:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c58ebe$6017cc70$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <410-2200575228947590 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:07:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C58E83.B32C44D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C58E83.B32C44D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, > Two protons in a H2 molecule separated by a distance R of 1.0E-10 = meters experience a coulomb repulsive force F =3D kq^2/R^2 =3D 2.304E-8 = nt and have a potential energy E =3D kq^2/R joules. A hard ball = thermal collision can force the two protons closer togetherand if = assisted by the Casimir Force the result is free energy in the amount of = the Casimir energy contribution. Yes. I understand that... as far as it goes. The problem that I have = with the Casimir "acting alone" in a gas is that there is no apparent = asymmetry.=20 By that I mean the same "boost" that you get in one direction becomes a = "drag" in the other direction so that the net energy contributed by = Casimir is zero. If there can be not a preferential vector for molecular = motion in the gas, so there is no asymmetry. How do you see an asymmetry arising in a gas which would allow the = Casimir to operate in only one direction? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C58E83.B32C44D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Fred,
     
    > Two protons in a H2 molecule separated by a distance R of = 1.0E-10=20 meters experience a coulomb repulsive force  F =3D kq^2/R^2 =3D = 2.304E-8=20 nt  and have a potential energy E =3D kq^2/R   joules. A = hard ball=20 thermal collision can force the two protons closer togetherand if = assisted by=20 the Casimir Force the result is free energy in the amount of the Casimir = energy=20 contribution.
     
     
    Yes. I understand that... as far as it goes. The = problem=20 that I have with the Casimir "acting alone" in a gas is that there is no = apparent asymmetry.
     
    By that I mean the same "boost" that you get in = one=20 direction becomes a "drag" in the other direction so that the net energy = contributed by Casimir is zero. If there can be not a preferential = vector for=20 molecular motion in the gas, so there is no asymmetry.
     
    How do you  see an asymmetry arising in a = gas which=20 would allow the Casimir to operate in only one direction?
     
    Jones
     
     
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C58E83.B32C44D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 06:56:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MDtqVG011258; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:56:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MDtnkb011225; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:55:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:55:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003d01c58ec5$012153b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "vortex-l" References: <410-2200575229507370 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:55:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick There is one major problem with this. That is the assumtion that the temperature gain derives from the heat of the gas itself within the tube, being transfered to the tube wall, where it is removed by the water flow. That might be the case, or not. Alternatively, If the 100 watt temperature gain derives "in" the anode itself, then things are far different. By "in" I mean within the first few microns of the sputtered tungsten layer. The gas itself could contain an excess of isomer molecules of p-H2 undergoing an endothermic change to ortho, therefore the gas temperature would be less than expected. At the same time, the surface layer of the anode could contain an excess of molecules of o-H2 undergoing a catlalytic exothermic change to p-H2. In other words, the 100 watt exotherm all occurs in the tungsten itself - or at least on the interior surface interface. I can see no other good reason why this thick layer of sputterered tungsten is important (other than it being where an LENR reaction would occur, if Ed Storms is correct). The asymmetry here would lie in the fact that the exotherm is kinetic while the endotherm (which "effectively" provides the OU from ZPE, is electromagnetic and derives from a spin realignment, due to coherent 1420 MHz radiation changing the p-H2 back to o-H2 Jones GSU, Pressure-Volume -Temperature Calculator: MAHG, Initial 300 K 76 mm Hg (10.13 kPa) 0.5 liter volume Final 100 watts 1140 mm Hg (151.95 kPa) 4500 K Effective Temp of H2 Molecules. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/idegasc.html#c1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 07:00:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6ME0KD3013321; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:00:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ME0Igh013294; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:00:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:00:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 9:59:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050722135955.ZRYO28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Collision frequency = 1.423E9 per second. :-) (Will you pleeeease delete your "reply to" line.) > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Collision frequency = 1.423E9 per second. :-) I can't find my copy of "QM for Dummies"; so, could you please explain why the energy of hyperfine spin exchange and the collision frequency could somehow produce ou? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 07:10:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MEAFWS017361; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:10:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MEADQQ017341; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:10:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:10:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722095247.04be0ba0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:09:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mizuno comes out of the closet! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That subject doesn't mean what it usually means. Yesterday I mentioned that Mizuno paid for his own equipment for 5 or 10 years. You may have noticed the numbers do not add up, since he has been doing CF for 16 years. As I reported here some time ago, starting ~5 years ago unnamed corporations have given him grants to pay for equipment, and also the use of their mass spectrometers and so on. I gather they are replicating the experiments. I have no idea how their replications are going, but they are still supporting his work, which is a good sign. Yesterday Mizuno called to say hello, and he send me some more .pdf files which I will upload today. He had good news about funding. As I said in the book, his "lab" at the university -- lab / office / grad-student experiment / equipment storage room -- is about as big as a U.S. university broom closet. You have to go into the room sideways because there is so much stuff crammed into it. See the photo in my book, p. 32. Anyway, his corporate sponsors have increased their support, and he is now setting up a much larger, better equipped lab, on property just outside the university campus. Our own noisy Russian friend Ludwik Kowalski hopes to visit Mizuno soon. I will ask him for a full report and photos of the new lab. I hope he brings back some knowledge and replicates here in the U.S. Mizuno's assistant, Ms. Kawasaki (shown in the photo on p. 32) has been seriously ill. She has lung cancer. She underwent surgery and chemotherapy, and she seems much better. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 07:24:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MENw4x024328; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:24:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MENs1d024247; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:23:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:23:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005501c58ec8$ea7cfbb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050722135955.ZRYO28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:23:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <0yhEpB.A.o6F.4FQ4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, There are different views on these mechanics - you ask: > I can't find my copy of "QM for Dummies"; so, could you please > explain why the > energy of hyperfine spin exchange and the collision frequency > could somehow > produce ou? In one view (which Fred does not 'buy' ... yet), there would be an asymmetry which would lie in the fact that the exotherm is kinetic while the endotherm (which "effectively" provides the OU from ZPE, is electromagnetic and derives from a spin realignment (not exactly a hyperfine spin exchange - more like a spin flip - actually it could be both, so thanks for that insight) due to coherent 1420 MHz radiation - resulting in the reversion of the p-H2 back to o-H2, after it has undergone exotherm. As to why there would be an excess of radiation at this frequency in the first place, that would be the "leap of faith" that the CMB is the predominant ZPE frequency, due to its ubiquity throughout the universe. It would show up here because the collisional frequency is resonant with it. That is the part which should be relatively easy to test. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 07:58:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MEviQ0010207; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:58:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MEvgQU010184; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:57:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:57:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007301c58ecd$a32889f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: ZPE-CMB experiment Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:57:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <41IoU.A.DfC.mlQ4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A simple experiment to test the notion that ZPE energy at the CMB frequency of 1420 MHz can be "cohered" simply by a resonant collisional frequency: Take a well-sealed steel pipe of adequate volume and fill with hydrogen at a predetermined pressure. There will be a resistive nichrome wire heater stretched axially inside the tube, and a fan cooling the outside. Set this up near an microwave feed horn, and an adjoining RF receiver tuned to the correct range. Heat the resistive wire (to a predetermined power level), so that the collisional frequency = 1420 MHz. Record the microwave signal. This is the NON-OU version of MAHG. There is no tungsten on the wall and the heater wire is not an active cathode. We simply want to get the collisional frequency up to 1420 MHz. In normal physics this should not create a detectable signal or at least not much of one. Is there a signal (or a very significant "blip") at 1420 or not? IOW by varying the heat up and down within the range, there should be a noticeable blip at 1420 MHz and nowhere else, if this idea is correct, no? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 08:04:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MF3Wxs012481; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:03:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MF3TIl012452; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:03:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:03:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E10AA7.8030605 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:03:03 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: some technical questions References: <000f01c58eba$e8626170$d850ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <000f01c58eba$e8626170$d850ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >From: "thomas malloy" >Subject: some technical questions > > > >>He also contends that a satellite, equipped with a detector for Gamma >>radiation would be able to detect a nuclear bomb from orbit. >> >> > >Before or after it explodes? No way *before* it explodes. After, plenty of >other evidence. > > In fact, we've already got satellites up there which detect nuclear explosions. IIRC they orbit at 60,000 miles ('way past geosynch, and 'way, 'way out of reach of ASATs) and they've been there for ages. They use optical detectors; apparently the signature of a nuclear explosion is very distinctive. Unfortunately, it's been shown that they don't work, and can't work no matter what technology they use, for an unexpected reason: If the explosion was undesirable and/or embarassing, then the leaders of the world conclude that the detection was erroneous and the flash was actually caused by something else (a bus backfiring, perhaps). This was demonstrated some years back when somebody ran an illegal H-bomb test which was dutifully reported by the satellites, and then subsequently denied on the grounds that since nobody admitted to it, it must not really have happened (I'm sure I have some details wrong but I think the outline of the tale is more or less correct). On the other hand, in cases where the evidence is sufficiently substantial that even a politician can't deny it, you don't need a satellite to tell you something exploded. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 08:24:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MFNsjO021223; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:24:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MFNoVW021158; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:23:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:23:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:23:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050722152320.BOVN28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > As to why there would be an excess of radiation at this frequency > in the first place, that would be the "leap of faith" that the CMB > is the predominant ZPE frequency, due to its ubiquity throughout > the universe. It would show up here because the collisional > frequency is resonant with it. That is the part which should be > relatively easy to test. Yeah, but, there's very little energy at those frequencies: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/ContentMedia/990015b.jpg we should be looking for a 170 mm reaction. ;-) Hmmm, is the spin magnetic moment orientation defined for the free electrons emitted by the tungsten? Or is the spin orientation only determinate in orbit? (I am not a fisisyst but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once and I'm having different line of thought here that has not totally cohered.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 08:39:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MFcg7A030138; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MFcZRP029929; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=abv40lD7WD1PBH9PvPgCkZvugrntLZXihPmUMAG1i4r28Zx++TxjvNv2uTmhrGp5; Message-ID: <410-220057522143825660 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:38:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94012e63ff4580ca22b7afb38521fe809da350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.55 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > Collision frequency = 1.423E9 per second. :-) > > (Will you pleeeease delete your "reply to" line.) > I would if I knew where to find it on this new earthlink mess. :-) > > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > Collision frequency = 1.423E9 per second. :-) > > I can't find my copy of "QM for Dummies"; so, could you please explain why the > energy of hyperfine spin exchange and the collision frequency could somehow > produce ou? I wouldn't try to explain it anymore than trying to explain the connection between the reported 550 ft height of the Washington Monument and 550 ft-lbs per second in the horsepower. :-) Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 09:02:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MG1gmc011221; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:01:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MG1dgC011189; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:01:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:01:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008c01c58ed6$9160e880$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050722152320.BOVN28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:01:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > Yeah, but, there's very little energy at those frequencies: Well, let's qualify that. There is little apparent energy form CMB in local 3-space (per unit volume), but enormous amounts of it in 4-space (net). If this radiation is a relic of the "big bang" as some suggest, then there is more of it in 4-space than all the visible light energy from every star in the whole universe, for instance. $64 question: Is there a "connection" or "gateway" between 4-space and 1-space (proton) which will allow coherency? IOW "very little energy" per unit volume can amount to substantial energy when it is withdrawn rapidly and instantaneously replinished. An inch of water in the bottom of a well can fill a great lake... if it is pumped out fast enough and instanly replinished. See where this is going? or looking at it another way.... There is very liitle energy in the radiation of a microwave oven - the photon itself is only a few hundreths of an eV. Your body puts out IR which is literaly thousands of times stronger in peak level... but yet the "coherency" of the oven's radiation (or a laser) is the functional equivalent of each small bit being replinished instantly - with the net result being a rather intense ability to apply heat rapidly. Yes... this whole line of reasoning is speculative (to say the least!)...and would be of little interest to anyone, were it not for a particular and very intruiguing experiment.... This graph is confusing: > http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/ContentMedia/990015b.jpg Do you have the citation (the text) to which this graph refers? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 09:05:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MG5DrO012685; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:05:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MG5C5d012662; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:05:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:05:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BgUq9tSXaYaeGeH06yuduSmhMsdJMBk8JGXecHe1P5SL9O4hRBJ7nYdq96rMaS/d; Message-ID: <410-2200575221558490 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:05:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c85b2baf72f77ad11db9525410d6b1ec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.55 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > Fred > > Two protons in a H2 molecule separated by a distance R of 1.0E-10 meters experience a coulomb >> repulsive force F = kq^2/R^2 = 2.304E-8 nt and have a potential energy E = kq^2/R joules. >> A hard ball thermal collision can force >>the two protons closer together and if assisted >> by the Casimir Force the result is free >> energy in the amount of the Casimir energy contribution. > > Yes. I understand that... as far as it goes. > The problem that I have with the Casimir "acting alone" in a gas is that > there is no apparent asymmetry. > The Casimir Plate experiments prove the existence of the unidirectional force. The "asymmetry" is in the 1/R^2 coulomb repulsion force acting against the hard ball thermal collision-inertia compressive "squeeze" of the H2 atoms (of the molecule) acting in conjunction with the 1/R^4 Casimir force that isn't enough to go it alone until you get to thermonuclear or supernova conditions. > By that I mean the same "boost" that you get in one direction becomes a "drag" > in the other direction so that the net energy contributed by Casimir is zero. > I disagree with this. The temporary thermal energy pulse ( collision energy) in conjunction with the Casimir Force (too weak to go it alone) gives a measurable ou. > > If there can be not a preferential vector for molecular motion in the gas, so there is no asymmetry. > > How do you see an asymmetry arising in a gas which would allow the Casimir to > operate in only one direction? A bubble in a glass of beer is symmetrical but comes to the top I think. > Jones ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
    Jones Beene wrote:
    > Fred
    > > Two protons in a H2 molecule separated by a distance R of 1.0E-10 meters experience a coulomb
    >> repulsive force   F = kq^2/R^2 = 2.304E-8 nt  and have a potential energy E = kq^2/R   joules.
    >> A hard ball thermal collision can force >>the two protons closer together and if assisted
    >> by the Casimir Force the result is free
    >> energy in the amount of the Casimir energy contribution.
    >
    > Yes. I understand that... as far as it goes.
    > The problem that I have with the Casimir "acting alone"  in a gas is that
    > there  is no apparent asymmetry.
    >
    The Casimir Plate experiments prove the existence of the unidirectional
    force.
    The "asymmetry" is in the 1/R^2 coulomb repulsion force acting against the hard ball
    thermal collision-inertia compressive "squeeze" of the H2 atoms (of the molecule) acting
    in conjunction with the 1/R^4 Casimir force that isn't enough to go it alone until you
    get to thermonuclear or supernova conditions.
     
    > By that I mean the same "boost" that you get in one direction becomes a "drag"
    > in the other direction so that the net energy contributed by Casimir is zero.
    >
    I disagree with this. The temporary thermal energy pulse ( collision energy) in conjunction with the
    Casimir  Force (too weak to go it alone) gives a measurable ou.
    >
    > If there can be not a preferential vector for molecular motion in the gas, so there is no asymmetry.
    >
    > How do you  see an asymmetry arising in a gas which would allow the Casimir to
    > operate in only one direction?
     
    A bubble in a glass of beer is symmetrical but comes to the top I think.
     
     
    > Jones
    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 09:18:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MGHYxm019432; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:17:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MGHXsC019425; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:17:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:17:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:17:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050722161711.CSGM28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > I wouldn't try to explain it anymore than trying to explain the connection > between the reported 550 ft height > of the Washington Monument and 550 ft-lbs per second in the horsepower. :-) Okay, I forgot that we don't believe this is atomic hydrogen. Geeze, I can't keep all the theories straight. Jones explained why the molecular hydrogen resonance could be ou. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 09:24:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MGNj5W023390; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:24:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MGNhpd023353; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:23:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:23:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722121523.04be3d30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:23:14 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New and modified files from Mizuno Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTneutronevoa.pdf File now includes all text http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoThydrogenev.pdf New. (There is a grammatical mistake in the abstract. I would like to point out that it is not my fault. My version was perfectly good but someone at JJAP messed it up!) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/TakahashiAproductiona.pdf Theory. What can I say? "Production of Stable Isotopes by Selective Channel Photofission of Pd" - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 09:27:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MGQHSc024731; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:26:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MGQGaR024708; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:26:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:26:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:25:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050722162552.CWMK28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8yci3C.A._BG.n4R4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > IOW "very little energy" per unit volume can amount to > substantial energy when it is withdrawn rapidly and > instantaneously replinished. Well, yeah, understood; but, if you're right, we should be able to find a 170 mm process. I just getting ahead of myself here. > This graph is confusing: > > > http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/ContentMedia/990015b.jpg > > Do you have the citation (the text) to which this graph refers? Yeah, sorry: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html One of my wall papers is the COBE map that was done several years ago. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 09:36:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MGZcij029285; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:35:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MGZadQ029250; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:35:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:35:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: some technical questions Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:35:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050722163512.DBEK28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > Unfortunately, it's been shown that they don't work, NEST *does* have some airborne detectors that work, sometimes. Here's a definitive article on detection of terrorist nukes: http://www.devabhaktuni.us/research/disarm.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 09:39:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MGccSI030972; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:38:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MGcVcr030890; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:38:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:38:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050722163808.009cc7e8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:38:08 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:49 am 22/07/2005 -0500, Richard wrote: > Grimer wrote.. >> A mention is also made of catalysis. It >>seems to me that the phenomena of cold >> fusion could well be a case of macro- >> catalysis. > > Have been interested in Putterman's work for some > 10 years in regards to cavitation studies. > > Frank, a simple proof of principle of your thoughts > on catalysis can be observed with the mixing of a > two part epoxy. Try mixing a cubic inch square mold > full versus a thin film layer on a surface. > The reaction and hardening time differs whereas the > cubic inch mold reaction time will be up to 12 or > more times faster than the thin film. This should > not be. The thin film should harden faster than the > cube. > > Richard That's interesting. Mind you, the cognitive dissonance given out by what I am proposing is so great that it will take the failure of the Hartlepool AGR and then some before anyone takes B-a and G-a seriously - unless of course, like you, or perhaps Gankin, they have come across anomalous events themselves. In the example you quote it would no doubt be argued that the heat of reaction for the cube can't escape as easily as for the thin film and that this heat speeds up the hardening process. I now realise there is a relatively simple experiment which will demonstrate the existence of the B-a for anyone who wants to be convinced. I will outline it in a future post on this thread. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 10:09:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MH9GnG015978; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:09:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MH9Eak015953; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:09:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:09:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=T3WW2NkDKFNBmH//DYAmE0P7XVHiJ3pwqbHb4kGgiropR7ZrB0OjQNHCDyzMVnGy; Message-ID: <410-22005752216852240 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:08:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408686c577928d5c5dfaa7d90ff417e505350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.197 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > I wouldn't try to explain it anymore than trying to explain the connection > > between the reported 550 ft height > > of the Washington Monument and 550 ft-lbs per second in the horsepower. :-) > > Okay, I forgot that we don't believe this is atomic hydrogen. Geeze, I can't keep all the theories straight. Jones explained why the molecular hydrogen resonance could be ou. Okay, I missed the height of George's "erection" by 5 feet 5 inches. http://www.skeptic.com/jr9-07.html "The Number Game The custom of manipulating numbers to discover hidden meanings is called Numerology. It is so easy to come up with startling coincidences that "hidden" numerical relationships should not be used to prove the existence of helpful space aliens or unknown advanced civilizations. Finding these relationships is really a game of "Pick and Choose." Mathematician Martin Gardner demonstrated how easy it is to find a pattern within a bunch of unrelated numbers. He analyzed the Washington Monument to see if he could "discover" the property of fiveness to it: Its height is 555 feet and five inches. The base is 55 feet square, and the windows are set at 500 feet from the base. If the base is multiplied by sixty (or five times the number of months in a year) it gives 3,300, which is the exact weight of the capstone in pounds. Also, the word 'Washington' has exactly ten letters (two times five). And if the weight of the capstone is multiplied by the base, the result is 181,500--a fairly close approximation of the speed of light in miles per second. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 10:14:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MHEAEP018341; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:14:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MHE925018309; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:14:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:14:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722130707.04be9210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:13:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Italians discuss cold fusion (fusione fredda) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some ongoing discussion group threads: http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2005/07/839109_comment.php http://www.forumcommunity.net/?t=1523365 This one is about W glow discharge. You can see a rough translation of these using the Google tool here: http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en The search term "fusione fredda" finds 13,800 pages in Italian. Here is one replete with conspiracy theories about Gene's death: http://www.disinformazione.it/fusionefredda4.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 10:35:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MHYUTP029124; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:34:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MHYSQD029102; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:34:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:34:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHhKDVwVfEMSvpcFnLd4s2vgh3MP30EL2Ag== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.39.189] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:32:02 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050722.103226.10124.93356 webmail38.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:3592736968 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.178|webmail38.nyc.untd.com|webmail38.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephan Vincent Johnson.- If the government does have evidence of UFO'S . When would they tell us.-the people. It seems we should be mature enough to handle it at this time. If not now when?-Unless there are no Ufo's-GES From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 10:39:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MHco0W032674; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:39:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MHcmb2032648; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:38:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:38:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Implosion Research Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:38:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050722173820.EEQK28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm glad to see someone is making some vortex money: http://www.implosionresearch.com/ I gotta get me one of those "Personal Harmonizers". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 11:26:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MIPPNo027227; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:25:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MIPMpW027179; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:25:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:25:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004001c58eea$a8ffb930$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050722162552.CWMK28160.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:24:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, >> IOW "very little energy" per unit volume can amount to >> substantial energy when it is withdrawn rapidly and >> instantaneously replinished. > Well, yeah, understood; but, if you're right, we should be able > to find a 170 mm process. I just getting ahead of myself here. Yes - I see - that would be seem to be true, and maybe usable... IF we could find a very mobile molecule as a "medium" which had a resonance there. Is there one? Oviously the answer is the one which "caused" the radiation in the first palce. I think that particular "window" in the graph - at around 150 GHz is due to water vapor - which is indeed a possibility to pursue. However the water molecule is about 9 times less "mobile" in terms of being able to have a collision rate, under coantainment, which is in sync with its much higher resonance - big problem. Not to mention dissociation - which could be just what you want - but is that possible to do easily? Hydrogen seems to be uniquely placed in having these overlapping traits: 1) a resonance point that is easy to achieve spatially, since the 21 cm wavelength is a size which fits in nicely with many existing lab items and tubes. 2) a resonance point that is easy to harness electronically - being microwave - it can be reflected without much loss and contained within the same resonant structure, so that a standing or travelling wave results (i.e. coherency) and being "cold" in its peak energy, it will not melt the container. 3) a very high mobility molecule, so that it can have a high collision rate at relatively low heat, even at reduced initial pressure. If the collision rate must be the same as its EM resonance, then 150 GHz is much more difficult to achieve in a gas, it would seem, as the structure would be subject to melt. Helium is mobile but has no isomer. Neon, O2 and N2 are not so mobile. Hydrogen seems to be the only option with high mobility and a low resonance, such that the two can get in sync - with water as a possibility. 4) an exploitable QM spread of energies in the isomer .....With the usual (substantial) caveats, of course.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 12:25:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MJOg6o029923; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:24:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MJOd9Q029897; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:24:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:24:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ppX0juoRCyaqK/rlVtgE5S/eAqJ0dw1xkhTS5RJwqpVuvC9/HlA6TMlCsha5l6O6WGQHwT/PjqWGECzUcH+pURCZW53lnYhRB+KK9DiDdBbafeIKuv3Wp3MDN6o6HtCFKsPkntianPxL67b1Blmot+lfz/OGAX/ctV/yvBWsnUI= ; Message-ID: <20050722192417.75174.qmail web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:24:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050721173157.00958c74 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <44rc4D.A.FTH.3fU4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It is a very compelling theory Frank, but I don't think it works out. --- Grimer wrote: > I find myself in this situation with regard to the > effect of drop in Beta-atmospheric (B-a) pressure > on the strength of the attraction and repulsion of > positive and negative charges. I am confident that > the explanation I have given is correct, albeit > obscenely unorthodox, but I find I have to demand > a justification, an explanation, from myself (my > own worst critic) as to why. > > To summarize the situation. > > The repulsive force between like charges is affected > > by the drop in B-a pressure as one enters into a > material such as water, steel, concrete, palladium > etc. > > The attractive force between unlike charges is > unaffected by a change in the B-a pressure as one > enters the material. > > So the problem is: > > ------------------------------------------------ > Why are repulsive forces affected and attractive > forces not affected by the B-a change? > ------------------------------------------------ > ======================================= > ! A TENSILE STRESS THEREFORE IS ! > ! MERELY A REDUCTION IN THE AMBIENT ! > ! COMPRESSIVE STRESS AND THE ! > ! CONCEPT OF ACTION AT A DISTANCE ! > ! IS NO LONGER REQUIRED ! > ======================================= > > .....and that really is the crux of the > matter. The force that pushes the like charges > apart emanates from those charges - but - the > force that pushes the unlike charges together > emanates, not from the charges, but from the > charges' enveloping environment. > > Let's, give it a name. Lets call it the > Gamma-aether, the Gamma-atmosphere (G-a), > for we are assuredly dealing with two vastly > different levels of the total Aether. > > The need for a Gamma-atmosphere was implicitly > recognised in the Southampton paper by > designating the familiar atmosphere, the air, > as the Alpha-atmosphere (A-a)to both distinguish > it from the Beta-atmosphere and to provide for > up to 22 more enveloping atmospheres as they > become required. > > Now it is not that the change in the B-a pressure > does not affect the value of the Gamma atmosphere > pressure at all. It does affect it. But the G-a > pressure is so bloody enormous that the change > brought about by a change in the B-a is negligible. > Anybody familiar with calculus will be very > familiar with thingees being negligible when > they are very small compared with other thingees. > > > When the B-a pressure is lowered, as it is > in the "FLUID PHASE" reduced B-a pressure of > a material such as water or metal, the > repulsion between positive charges is reduced. > In other words, the Coulomb Barrier between > positive charges is lowered. This is the > essential key to understanding Cold Fusion. > > And in order to make progress in bringing CF to a > commercial product, without blowing oneself up in > the process, one would be well advised to take > Whitehead's good advice. > > > ==================================================== Picture it this way... I have a spring (coulomb force) seperating 2 steel plates (protons) Note that the space between the plates is open to the surroounding atmosphere and not sealed. The force required to move the plates closer together is very precisely calculated in air at 14.7 psi. Now if I were to place the entire apparatus under water where the pressure was raised to 100 psi would it make any difference in the force needed to compress the spring? The added pressure acts equally on all sides of the plates and so cancels out. Frank, as I understand it you see charge as relative to the background (beta-aether) rather like temperature. If we were to call protons hot at 71 degrees and electrons cold at 69 degrees then a hydrogen atom would be neutral at 70 degrees because it averages out. however if you seperated the particles / charges, having 10 electrons 69 degrees each on one side of a wall and 10 protons at 71 degrees each on the other, the charge imbalance shoud be 20, but the temperature difference is still only 2 degrees. IMHO it is the absolute difference in charge rather than the ratio that is important. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 12:54:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MJrmUH011784; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:54:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MJrfS5011726; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:53:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:53:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722151345.04beceb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:53:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: You have to make a professional presentation In-Reply-To: <20050722024927.65619.qmail web33311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721174622.057cd1c0 pop.mindspring.com> <20050722024927.65619.qmail web33311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4hR6sC.A.F3C.D7U4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Christopher Arnold wrote: >. . . used the rest of my life savings building the prototypes and paying >for testing that nobody would believe. Plenty of people will believe testing if it is properly performed and properly presented. You have an audience here that is inclined to believe it. I have seen many inventors whine and moan about people not believing them. When I have looked closely, in every case I concluded that they did not deserve to be believed. Whether that is true in your case or not I cannot judge -- obviously -- but most people, and 100% of investors, would never bother to look in the first place. Your attitude and kinds of things you have said here will frighten away a sane investor long before he gets around to evaluating your claims. Cold fusion is still highly controversial, and most mainstream scientists say it is unbelievable. Many powerful people such as Robert Park and the editors of Sci. Am. are at war with it. But other people, who are more open minded, download 12,000 papers about cold fusion every month from LENR-CANR.org. In all, we have had over 670,000 visits. Of course many were merely taking a casual look, and many came to ridicule the subject, but I am sure many thousands of others take the subject seriously, and believe it has merit. The audience is mostly college students and professional scientists. (I can tell that by various means . . . and after all, who else would read this stuff?) So please do not tell *me* that it is impossible to find an audience for a controversial claim. Seek, and thou shalt find; ask and it shall be given unto thee. >A professional proposal, you mean like my 79 page Private Placement >Memorandum, or did you mean the Power Point presentation. I have not seen this 79 page document, so I cannot judge. I suggest you make it public. But in any case, 79 pages is about 70 pages too long for a scientific paper. If you are going to convince scientists (and scientifically minded people like me) you must do things our way, and present information in the format we expect and we are used to. If you will not do that, you will fail. As I said, you have to pick one or the other goal: 1. Convince people, or 2. Make you own rules for writing papers. Which is more important to you? > The problem with both of those is that every $cientist that reviewed the > patent for prospective investors said for starters the patent was > "Impossible" . . . I suggest you need to find a better class of scientists. >Jed, you are a very intelligent man. On the other hand - you are still not >able to advise me how to convince profe$$ional $cientists . . . I have attracted 670,000 readers, mainly professional scientists. If I cannot tell you how to do this, nobody can. If you will not listen to me, who will you turn to? Or do you think it is better to kvetch and moan and throw away your life's work because mankind does not appreciate your sublime genius? If that is your attitude, I hereby diagnose you as suffering from a terminal case of the Inventor's Disease. You might as well drop dead now and take your invention to the grave, the way Meyer and so many others have done already. Given the self-righteous, self-pitying attitude you have evinced here, there is no chance you will convince people to look at your claim, take you seriously, or try to replicate. If this sounds harsh, I apologize, but I have spent 10 years hearing this kind of stuff from people like you and the Correas, and countless others. I have had QUITE ENOUGH. You people are as bad as the "skeptics" and debunkers. You need to stop and think, try to get some perspective, and try to see things the way other people see them. You have failed because you refuse to do this, not because all scientists are closed-minded corrupt fools. (Mind you, many of them are! As I said, you need to steer clear of that type.) Let me add that real scientists who have made real sacrifices, such as Mizuno, Fleischmann, or Miles, never complain, and they are not a bit self-righteous. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 12:59:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MJwTN3014320; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:58:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MJwQK2014303; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:58:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:58:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:57:55 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Wired article on Jahn Message-ID: <42E12593.29890.6AA709 mark.cpovo.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20050722.103226.10124.93356 webmail38.nyc.untd.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.30 public beta 1) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:04:39 -0300 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 200.203.35.123 X-MDRemoteIP: 200.203.35.123 X-Return-Path: mark cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:04:43 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some governments are disclosing some information: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16000752-13762,00.html On 22 Jul 2005 at 17:32, gesrebspar juno.com wrote: > > Stephan Vincent Johnson.- If the government does have evidence > of UFO'S . When would they tell us.-the people. > It seems we should be mature enough to handle it at this time. > If not now when?-Unless there are no Ufo's-GES > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 13:26:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MKQ9Bh030188; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:26:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MKQ79v030160; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:26:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:26:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vheq$12e15ol mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,135,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1155569429:sNHT23933386" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Mizuno comes out of the closet! Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:25:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed ... > Yesterday I mentioned that Mizuno paid for his own equipment > for 5 or 10 years. You may have noticed the numbers do not > add up, since he has been doing CF for 16 years. As I > reported here some time ago, starting ~5 years ago unnamed > corporations have given him grants to pay for equipment, and > also the use of their mass spectrometers and so on. I gather > they are replicating the experiments. I have no idea how > their replications are going, but they are still supporting > his work, which is a good sign. I would certainly take this as a positive sign considering the obvious fact that the only way corporations stay in business is by carefully evaluating the profit potential of their R&D investments. > Yesterday Mizuno called to say hello, and he send me some > more .pdf files which I will upload today. He had good news > about funding. As I said in the book, his "lab" at the > university -- lab / office / grad-student experiment > / equipment storage room -- is about as big as a U.S. > university broom closet. You have to go into the room > sideways because there is so much stuff crammed into it. > See the photo in my book, p. 32. Anyway, his corporate > sponsors have increased their support, and he is now > setting up a much larger, better equipped lab, on > property just outside the university campus. I wonder, with a new lab set up away from the university campus does this mean Mizuno will likely experience fewer academic hassles? But then, I gather one must now please the whims of the Corporate Board of Directors. I would imagine this group might turn out to be an even tougher group to kowtow to when compared to academic peers presumably more interested in the pursuit of pure research. > Our own noisy Russian friend Ludwik Kowalski hopes to visit > Mizuno soon. I will ask him for a full report and photos of > the new lab. I hope he brings back some knowledge and > replicates here in the U.S. > > Mizuno's assistant, Ms. Kawasaki (shown in the photo on p. > 32) has been seriously ill. She has lung cancer. She > underwent surgery and chemotherapy, and she seems much > better. > > - Jed May Kawasaki's recovery be quick and thorough. I would imagine it's hard to get good help. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 13:56:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MKu80W010047; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:56:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MKu6b0010019; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:56:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:56:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:55:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050722205540.SJWQ3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Hydrogen seems to be uniquely placed in having these overlapping > traits: > > 1) a resonance point that is easy to achieve spatially, since the > 21 cm wavelength is a size which fits in nicely with many existing > lab items and tubes. I'm having a real problem understanding this. The 21 cm hydrogen line is caused by the hyperfine structure of the 1s level of the hydrogen atom. This splitting of the 1s level is due to the interaction of the nuclear spin and the electron spin. When these spins are parallel the hydrogen atom is in a slightly higher energy state and spin flipping results in the emission of a 5.9 x10^-6 eV photon. In your OPines on molecular hydrogen nuclear spins, are you saying that flipping the electron spin can change the molecular spin? My head is spinning. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 14:05:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6ML558c014605; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:05:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ML54QO014571; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:05:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:05:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003e01c58f00$f38eef50$74027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:04:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01C58ED7.0A30CB90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C58ED7.0A30CB90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003B_01C58ED7.0A30CB90" ------=_NextPart_001_003B_01C58ED7.0A30CB90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRichard wrote.. Frank, a simple proof of principle of your thoughts=20 > on catalysis can be observed with the mixing of a=20 > two part epoxy. Try mixing a cubic inch square mold=20 > full versus a thin film layer on a surface.=20 > The reaction and hardening time differs whereas the=20 > cubic inch mold reaction time will be up to 12 or=20 > more times faster than the thin film. This should=20 > not be. The thin film should harden faster than the=20 > cube. > Grimer wrote.. In the example you quote it would no doubt be argued that the heat=20 of reaction for the cube can't escape as easily as for the thin=20 film and that this heat speeds up the hardening process. The use of 2 part epoxy as an example over concrete is used because of = the heat of reaction of epoxy is more obvious to everyone over concrete. = Near identical reactive events occur in both. If you identify it as a = chemical reaction you have locked yourself in the cloakroom.. it is a = B-a and G-a event beyond chemistry as defined. If we consider the heat comes from the chemical reaction, we wind up in = a socalled English maze with no exit except back to square one. If we = consider the heat " arrives" externally, we are still progressing thru = the maze and the quest for B-a and G-a can continue. Both are = demonstrable daily in the structural concrete in our bridges. Some fifty = odd years ago, a friend tried to explain the chemistry of Portland = cement. Finally, he threw up his hands in disgust and shouted.. its = staring you in the face, it is compounded daily, it is the only material = I know that gains hardness and strength as it ages except petrified wood = which just happens to be a similar process.He stated he couldn't explain = it, science and mathematics had yet to progress to an explanation, = Which poises the question.. should we be studying petrification for a = clue? I have been having fun bouncing ideas in the group such as a black hole = may act as a capacitor and the sun act as a transceiver , receiving , = converting and re-transmitting a different form of energy. One of the = interesting thoughts alluding to this nonsense of mine is the evidence = of socalled dark matter and/ or dead stars. Dead silent dark star bodies = may have lost the ability to receive an energy input. Exploding nova may = be stars that receive energy and have the ability to convert but not the = ability to re-transmit energy and therefore explode in an atomic = catacylism beyond one's imagination. However , an ever wise designer has = made allowances and both the energy and matter are sustained and = regrouped for re-use. Perhaps the task we face in the search for new = energy sources includes formulating methods of that re-use. At some = point in time, hopefully the next generation of youth that are in = science programs will get past Darwin's psuedo-quackery that has = degenerated into a cult belief system of sorts and held back the = nation's Universities by it's teaching as science and permeated every = realm of study. While in a gibberish mood I will cast another stone in the placid pool = of cyber-science. Lightning !! Lightning comes in more than 3 flavors. One of the = flavors describe B-a and G-a and surprisingly link directly to CF. Try = that on for size !! Of course, Grimer is never one to be left in the = cloakroom of ideas without a goodie and surely will post the promised = experiment. Gosh , this group is interesting, I just hope our esteemed moderator = has mercy on a poor Texas boy just trying to make do as a cowboy rodeo = roper . Richard ------=_NextPart_001_003B_01C58ED7.0A30CB90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Richard wrote..
     Frank, a simple proof of principle of your thoughts
    > = on=20 catalysis can be observed with the mixing of a
    > two part epoxy. = Try=20 mixing a cubic inch square mold
    > full versus a thin film layer = on a=20 surface.
    > The reaction and hardening time differs whereas the =
    >=20 cubic inch mold reaction time will be up to 12 or
    > more times = faster=20 than the thin film. This should
    > not be. The thin film should = harden=20 faster than the
    > cube.
    >
    Grimer wrote..

    In the example you quote it would no doubt be argued that the heat =
    of=20 reaction for the cube can't escape as easily as for the thin
    film = and that=20 this heat speeds up the hardening process.

    The use of 2 part epoxy as an example over concrete is used because = of the=20 heat of reaction of epoxy is more obvious to everyone over concrete. = Near=20 identical reactive events occur in both. If you identify it as a = chemical=20 reaction you have locked yourself in the cloakroom.. it is a B-a and G-a = event=20 beyond chemistry as defined.

    If we consider the heat comes from the chemical reaction, we wind up = in a=20 socalled English maze with no exit except back to square one. If we = consider the=20 heat " arrives" externally, we are still progressing thru the maze and = the quest=20 for B-a and         = G-a can=20 continue. Both are demonstrable daily in the structural concrete in = our=20 bridges. Some fifty odd years ago, a friend tried to explain the = chemistry of=20 Portland cement. Finally, he threw up his hands in disgust and shouted.. = its=20 staring you in the face, it is compounded daily, it is the only material = I know=20 that gains hardness and strength as it ages except petrified wood which = just=20 happens to be a similar process.He stated he couldn't explain it,=20 science and mathematics had yet to progress to an=20 explanation,  Which poises the question.. should we be = studying=20 petrification for a clue?

    I have been having fun bouncing ideas in the group such as a black = hole may=20 act as a capacitor and the sun act as a transceiver , receiving , = converting and=20 re-transmitting a different form of energy. One of the interesting = thoughts=20 alluding to this nonsense of mine is the evidence of socalled dark = matter=20 and/ or dead stars. Dead silent dark star bodies may have lost the = ability to=20 receive an energy input. Exploding nova may be stars that receive energy = and=20 have the ability to convert but not the ability to re-transmit = energy=20 and therefore explode in an atomic catacylism beyond one's imagination. = However=20 , an ever wise designer has made allowances and both the energy and = matter are=20 sustained and regrouped for re-use. Perhaps the task we face in the = search=20 for new energy sources includes formulating methods of that re-use. At = some=20 point in time, hopefully the next generation of youth that are in = science=20 programs will  get past Darwin's psuedo-quackery  that has = degenerated=20 into a cult belief system of sorts and held back the nation's = Universities by=20 it's teaching as science and permeated every realm of study.

    While in a gibberish mood I will cast another stone in the placid = pool of=20 cyber-science.

     Lightning !!  Lightning comes in more than 3 flavors. One = of the=20 flavors describe B-a and G-a and surprisingly link directly to CF.  = Try=20 that on for size !! Of course, Grimer is never one to be left in the = cloakroom=20 of ideas without a goodie and surely will post the promised = experiment.

     Gosh , this group is interesting, I just hope our esteemed = moderator=20 has mercy on a poor Texas boy just trying to make do as a cowboy rodeo = roper=20 .

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_003B_01C58ED7.0A30CB90-- ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C58ED7.0A30CB90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003901c58f00$f2e23490$74027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C58ED7.0A30CB90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 14:54:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MLrnga007093; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:54:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MLrNXm006536; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:53:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:53:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009601c58f07$b0dc0740$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050722205540.SJWQ3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:52:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > I'm having a real problem understanding this. The 21 cm > hydrogen line is caused by the hyperfine structure of the 1s > level of the hydrogen atom. This splitting of the 1s level is > due to the interaction of the nuclear spin and the electron > spin. When these spins are parallel the hydrogen atom is in a > slightly higher energy state and spin flipping results in the > emission of a 5.9 x10^-6 eV photon. > In your OPines on molecular hydrogen nuclear spins, are you > saying that flipping the electron spin can change the molecular > spin? Why not? Are you going to surprise me with an overlooked bit of insight? ....Given that the hydrogen atom in its ground state is a spin zero object, this seems to indicate that the molecular "regular" spin imparted by an EM field alone may be sufficient to flip the quantum spin without any real kinetic "collision" being necessary to change (or "pump") the isomeric state back up to ortho.... or is there a false assumption there? I realize that it is a mistake to link orbital "spin" with quantum spin, but in fact the two are often coordinated. If there is an error in this line of reasoning, this is a good candidate. BTW There is a web nice page with some images on gas collision rates at: http://itl.chem.ufl.edu/2041_f97/lectures/lec_d.html What could be special about a gas collision rate of 1.42 * 10e9, assuming that spin-spin is linked ? Certainly nothing is special about it in air; but in hydrogen, this is coincidentally in sync with the energy gap between the two isomers: ortho and para. One possibility of that being the case may be simply that the collision rate acts as a catalyst, if there should be an imbalance in the normal ratio of o-p for a given temperature. The catalyst would speed up the rate of change. The more difficult "leap of faith" is that the collision rate actually coheres "excess" EM energy from ZPE in order to keep the gas in an isothermal state, especially since it is over the inversion temperature. Normally when heat would be recaptured, when going from p back to o, then the gas itself would cool, and there would be a lowering of pressure - except in that crazy circumstances of inversion, where the 'normal' effect of contraction when a gas cools is suspended. Could inversion itself be a ZPE effect? It is all very confusing. Do you find any fault with the suggested experiment, however? A couple of interesting factoids, re air. At the density of the atmosphere at sea level, each gas molecule experiences collisions at a rate of about 10e10 times per second. Since this is not "that" far off, is there anything special about the lower collision rate of MAHG? The average distance traveled by a molecule between collisions is the mean free path (MFP). The higher the density of gas, the smaller the mean free path (more likelihood of a collision) At sea level the mean free path is about 60 nm. At lower pressure, this gap is larger, plus the Casimir is most potent from 10 nm down to 2 nm. Hmmm... lost my train of thought there, but anyway it would seem that if the Casimir alone is operative, without isomers, then it should not work as well at the lower pressure of MAHG as it would at a higher pressure. More later, TGIF ... except I swore off drinking as my new year's resolution. Makes me wonder if any of those bars are open here - have you heard - the English call it AWOL... those naughty Brits... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 14:58:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MLvtEu010177; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:58:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MLvro6010152; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050722215734.009d5aa8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:57:34 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:24 pm 22/07/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: > It is a very compelling theory Frank, You say the nicest things, Merlyn. 8-) > but I don't think it works out. But here comes the "but" ;^) >--- Grimer wrote: > >> I find myself in this situation with regard to the >> effect of drop in Beta-atmospheric (B-a) pressure >> on the strength of the attraction and repulsion of >> positive and negative charges. I am confident that >> the explanation I have given is correct, albeit >> obscenely unorthodox, but I find I have to demand >> a justification, an explanation, from myself (my >> own worst critic) as to why. >> >> To summarize the situation. >> >> The repulsive force between like charges is affected >> >> by the drop in B-a pressure as one enters into a >> material such as water, steel, concrete, palladium >> etc. >> >> The attractive force between unlike charges is >> unaffected by a change in the B-a pressure as one >> enters the material. >> >> So the problem is: >> >> ------------------------------------------------ >> Why are repulsive forces affected and attractive >> forces not affected by the B-a change? >> ------------------------------------------------ >> ======================================= >> ! A TENSILE STRESS THEREFORE IS ! >> ! MERELY A REDUCTION IN THE AMBIENT ! >> ! COMPRESSIVE STRESS AND THE ! >> ! CONCEPT OF ACTION AT A DISTANCE ! >> ! IS NO LONGER REQUIRED ! >> ======================================= >> >> .....and that really is the crux of the >> matter. The force that pushes the like charges >> apart emanates from those charges - but - the >> force that pushes the unlike charges together >> emanates, not from the charges, but from the >> charges' enveloping environment. >> >> Let's, give it a name. Lets call it the >> Gamma-aether, the Gamma-atmosphere (G-a), >> for we are assuredly dealing with two vastly >> different levels of the total Aether. >> >> The need for a Gamma-atmosphere was implicitly >> recognised in the Southampton paper by >> designating the familiar atmosphere, the air, >> as the Alpha-atmosphere (A-a)to both distinguish >> it from the Beta-atmosphere and to provide for >> up to 22 more enveloping atmospheres as they >> become required. >> >> Now it is not that the change in the B-a pressure >> does not affect the value of the Gamma atmosphere >> pressure at all. It does affect it. But the G-a >> pressure is so bloody enormous that the change >> brought about by a change in the B-a is negligible. >> Anybody familiar with calculus will be very >> familiar with thingees being negligible when >> they are very small compared with other thingees. >> >> >> When the B-a pressure is lowered, as it is >> in the "FLUID PHASE" reduced B-a pressure of >> a material such as water or metal, the >> repulsion between positive charges is reduced. >> In other words, the Coulomb Barrier between >> positive charges is lowered. This is the >> essential key to understanding Cold Fusion. >> >> And in order to make progress in bringing CF to a >> commercial product, without blowing oneself up in >> the process, one would be well advised to take >> Whitehead's good advice. >> >> >> ==================================================== >Picture it this way... > >I have a spring (coulomb force) separating 2 steel >plates (protons) >Note that the space between the plates is open to the >surroundings atmosphere and not sealed. >The force required to move the plates closer together >is very precisely calculated in air at 14.7 psi. >Now if I were to place the entire apparatus under >water where the pressure was raised to 100 psi would >it make any difference in the force needed to compress >the spring? The added pressure acts equally on all >sides of the plates and so cancels out. I don't see the repulsive force between two like charges as something static, but something dynamic, a flux, a flow of substance. Now, clearly, the repulsive pressure this flow will exert will be proportional to the difference between the pressure of the outgoing flow and the ambient pressure of the field. If both pressures are the same, for example, then there can be no repulsion. The nature of the "attractive" force is quite different. It doesn't emanate from the charges themselves but from the ambient field. It is brought about by the Bernoulli pressure drop in the flow and counter flow between the electron (at a pressure above B-a ambient) and the proton (at a pressure below B-a ambient). To give a loose analogy which I wouldn't want to press too far. The earth receives directed radiation from the sun at one average wavelength and transmits it isotropically at a lower wavelength. The higher wavelength is analogous to the Gamma-atmosphere. the lower to the Beta-atmosphere. >Frank, as I understand it you see charge as relative >to the background (beta-aether) rather like >temperature. As pressure, the inverse of temperature - but you're on the right track >If we were to call protons hot at 71 degrees and >electrons cold at 69 degrees then a hydrogen atom >would be neutral at 70 degrees because it averages >out. It would be at ambient pressure, neutral charge. >however if you separated the particles / charges, >having 10 electrons 69 degrees each on one side of a >wall and 10 protons at 71 degrees each on the other, >the charge imbalance should be 20, but the temperature >difference is still only 2 degrees. If you think of inverse temperature as a pressure then we are talking about stress per unit area and by having more charges you are in effect increasing the area. The total force is the same but the stress is unchanged. >IMHO it is the absolute difference in charge rather >than the ratio that is important. > I don't think we are really in much disagreement. 8-) Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful and constructive reply. It's nice to hear from people who are prepared to think way, way, way outside the box. 8-) Also, your post will give me the incentive to find a better analogy for what I intuitively know must be the case. Cheers - and thanks Frank P.S. When I was first introduced to fluid dynamic phenomena I was struck by how counter intuitive they are. The flume for example; one would expect a stream to pile up higher and go slower when going through a narrow opening. But it does the complete opposite. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 15:33:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MMWVYm029188; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:32:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MMWUv9029177; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:32:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:32:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220057522223245120 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday July 22, 2005 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:32:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8047972f01d006644e95f19286b8a305b3b5efdd33357ec02350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.86.117 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New To: Date: 7/22/2005 1:35:23 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday July 22, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 22 Jul 05 Washington, DC NOTICE: Maryland has the WN search engine running. There's not enough space in WN for URL's of all relevant back issues. Just go to http://www.bobpark.org and click on "search." 1. SUMMER RERUN: DISCOVERY LAUNCH TUESDAY - OR MAYBE SEPTEMBER. They won't know for sure if the fuel sensor is working properly until they fill the external tanks. There hasn't been a shuttle flight in 32 months. If they don't launch in July they won't have another window until September. The shuttle is still needed to make Hubble repairs and eventually dismantle the space station. 2. SUMMER RECESS: THE LAUNCH WINDOW ON CAPITOL HILL ALSO CLOSES. For all they've been doing, you might have thought Congress was already in recess. Now they're in a hurry to get out of town by the end of next week. Better they left yesterday. Today, in the first space authorization in five years, the House endorsed the Bush "Vision for Space Exploration." The "Vision" calls for sending humans back to the moon in 2020. President Kennedy, in 1961, promised it "within a decade." It was done in seven years, but it's much harder now, and less urgent. The Cold War is over. 3. HYDROGEN HURDLES: THEY AREN'T POT HOLES, THE BRIDGE IS OUT. In the other technology initiative of the Bush administration, House subcommittees on both energy and research heard Wednesday about some of the problems. They could have found out a year ago by reading the APS Panel on Public Affairs report on the Hydrogen Initiative http://www.aps.org/publicaffairs/index.cfm. But while members of Congress never tire of hearing about the absence of greenhouse emissions and how hydrogen could reduce dependence on Arab oil, they seem less interested in production and storage. 4. WORLD PEACE: THE INFLATION RATE EXCEEDS THAT OF REAL ESTATE. Avant-garde film director David Lynch ("Mulholland Dr.") wants to raise $7B to create world peace through a massive Transcendental Meditation program. A corps of 8,000, trained in TM, would create a coherent unified field over Earth. I don't mean to be a cynic, but in the 1993 Demonstration Project to reduce violence John Hagelin had 5,000 meditating over an 8 week period for only $1M. He offered to end the war in Kosovo with 7,000 Yogic flyers (flyers are better trained). After 9/11, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi himself, in a full-page ad in the NY Times, turned to "the world's wealthiest." He proposed to create world peace with a corps of 40,000 flyers for $1B. "There must be a few peace-loving billionaires who can raise the money in one day," he said. We see from Iraq that not one cheapskate billionaire came through. 5. MISSILE DEFENSE: THAT'S EVEN BETTER THAN I THOUGHT IT WAS. Air Force Lt. Gen. Henry A. Obering III, director of the Missile Defense Agency, quoted in today's Washington Post: "We have a better than zero chance of successfully intercepting, I believe, an inbound warhead. That confidence will improve over time." THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 15:41:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6MMegiF000466; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:40:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6MMdpAK032439; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:39:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:39:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU vs 3 K Ortho-Para H2 Spin Switching Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:39:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050722223912.TPTW3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <4iiYpB.A.m6H.0WX4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > ... except I swore off drinking as my new year's resolution. SACRILEGE! :-) No, your experiment looks fine. Do you know someone that can perform it? I really don't understand why Earth Tech isn't interested unless they have lost their Prince. ;-) SACRE BLEU! I wish Jean-Louis would just come back to work and measure the RF output. The thing that bothers me is that the ortho state of the H ATOM is a very forbidden state with probability of 2.9 x 10^-15 per second. 21 cm astronomy benefits from the sheer number out there. I need to study this more because I know that the most stable atomic clocks depend on this hyperfine structure transition. Assuming the universe is 12 billion years old, what would be the o/p ratio of the Hydrogen ATOMs? Bartender, pass the sour mash! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 17:18:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6N0I9OL010383; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:18:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6N0I7XA010366; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:18:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:18:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d401c58f1b$b07d2e50$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: JED ROTHWELL CF Letter in Havard Paper Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:15:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C58EFA.292D9AF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <3jnF7C.A.5hC._yY4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C58EFA.292D9AF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Madrian Mistaken About Cold Fusion Debate By JED ROTHWELL=20 To the editors:=20 In a letter to the editor ("Hoxby Misrepresented In Article on Academic = Debate," July 15), Brigitte C. Madrian wrote, "This is not like the = 'cold fusion' debate of the 1980s in which a highly acclaimed finding, = published in one paper, was subsequently invalidated."=20 This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The findings were not = highly acclaimed; they were widely attacked, and they still are today. = There was not one paper or one claim, and the claim was never = "invalidated." The claims made by Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons = were replicated by hundreds of major laboratories worldwide, including = most U.S. National Laboratories, China Lake, SRI International, and = Texas A&M. Hundreds of positive cold fusion results were published in = peer-reviewed journals of chemistry and electrochemistry.=20 JED ROTHWELL=20 Atlanta, Ga.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C58EFA.292D9AF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Madrian Mistaken About Cold Fusion=20 Debate

    By JED = ROTHWELL=20

    To = the=20 editors:=20

    In a letter to the editor ("Hoxby = Misrepresented In=20 Article on Academic Debate,=94 July 15), Brigitte C. Madrian wrote, = =93This is=20 not like the =91cold fusion=92 debate of the 1980s in which a highly = acclaimed=20 finding, published in one paper, was subsequently invalidated.=94=20

    This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The findings were not = highly=20 acclaimed; they were widely attacked, and they still are today. There = was not=20 one paper or one claim, and the claim was never =93invalidated.=94 The = claims made=20 by Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons were replicated by hundreds of = major=20 laboratories worldwide, including most U.S. National Laboratories, China = Lake,=20 SRI International, and Texas A&M. Hundreds of positive cold fusion = results=20 were published in peer-reviewed journals of chemistry and = electrochemistry.=20

    JED ROTHWELL=20

    Atlanta, Ga.

    ------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C58EFA.292D9AF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 18:43:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6N1gqHm010430; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:43:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6N1go7b010404; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:42:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:42:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001701c58f27$c32b52a0$93027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:42:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C58EFD.D8C7F3E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, LINES_OF_YELLING,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C58EFD.D8C7F3E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C58EFD.D8C97A80" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C58EFD.D8C97A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank At 12:24 pm 22/07/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: > It is a very compelling theory Frank,=20 You say the nicest things, Merlyn. 8-) > but I don't think it works out. But here comes the "but" ;^) >--- Grimer wrote: > >> I find myself in this situation with regard to the=20 >> effect of drop in Beta-atmospheric (B-a) pressure=20 >> on the strength of the attraction and repulsion of=20 >> positive and negative charges. I am confident that=20 >> the explanation I have given is correct, albeit=20 >> obscenely unorthodox, but I find I have to demand=20 >> a justification, an explanation, from myself (my=20 >> own worst critic) as to why.=20 >>=20 >> To summarize the situation. >>=20 >> The repulsive force between like charges is affected >>=20 >> by the drop in B-a pressure as one enters into a=20 >> material such as water, steel, concrete, palladium=20 >> etc. >>=20 >> The attractive force between unlike charges is=20 >> unaffected by a change in the B-a pressure as one=20 >> enters the material. >>=20 >> So the problem is: >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------ >> Why are repulsive forces affected and attractive=20 >> forces not affected by the B-a change? >> ------------------------------------------------ >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 >> ! A TENSILE STRESS THEREFORE IS ! >> ! MERELY A REDUCTION IN THE AMBIENT !=20 >> ! COMPRESSIVE STRESS AND THE ! >> ! CONCEPT OF ACTION AT A DISTANCE ! >> ! IS NO LONGER REQUIRED ! >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>=20 >> .....and that really is the crux of the=20 >> matter. The force that pushes the like charges=20 >> apart emanates from those charges - but - the=20 >> force that pushes the unlike charges together=20 >> emanates, not from the charges, but from the=20 >> charges' enveloping environment. >>=20 >> Let's, give it a name. Lets call it the=20 >> Gamma-aether, the Gamma-atmosphere (G-a),=20 >> for we are assuredly dealing with two vastly=20 >> different levels of the total Aether. >>=20 >> The need for a Gamma-atmosphere was implicitly=20 >> recognised in the Southampton paper by=20 >> designating the familiar atmosphere, the air,=20 >> as the Alpha-atmosphere (A-a)to both distinguish=20 >> it from the Beta-atmosphere and to provide for=20 >> up to 22 more enveloping atmospheres as they=20 >> become required. >>=20 >> Now it is not that the change in the B-a pressure=20 >> does not affect the value of the Gamma atmosphere=20 >> pressure at all. It does affect it. But the G-a=20 >> pressure is so bloody enormous that the change=20 >> brought about by a change in the B-a is negligible.=20 >> Anybody familiar with calculus will be very=20 >> familiar with thingees being negligible when=20 >> they are very small compared with other thingees. >>=20 >>=20 >> When the B-a pressure is lowered, as it is=20 >> in the "FLUID PHASE" reduced B-a pressure of=20 >> a material such as water or metal, the=20 >> repulsion between positive charges is reduced.=20 >> In other words, the Coulomb Barrier between >> positive charges is lowered. This is the=20 >> essential key to understanding Cold Fusion.=20 >>=20 >> And in order to make progress in bringing CF to a=20 >> commercial product, without blowing oneself up in=20 >> the process, one would be well advised to take=20 >> Whitehead's good advice. >>=20 >> =20 >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D >Picture it this way... > >I have a spring (coulomb force) separating 2 steel >plates (protons) >Note that the space between the plates is open to the >surroundings atmosphere and not sealed. >The force required to move the plates closer together >is very precisely calculated in air at 14.7 psi. >Now if I were to place the entire apparatus under >water where the pressure was raised to 100 psi would >it make any difference in the force needed to compress >the spring? The added pressure acts equally on all >sides of the plates and so cancels out. I don't see the repulsive force between two like charges as something static, but something dynamic, a flux, a flow of substance. Now, clearly, the repulsive pressure=20 this flow will exert will be proportional to the difference between the pressure of the outgoing flow and the ambient=20 pressure of the field. If both pressures are the same, for example, then there can be no repulsion. The nature of the "attractive" force is quite different. It doesn't emanate from the charges themselves but from the ambient field. It is brought about by the Bernoulli pressure drop in the=20 flow and counter flow between the electron (at a pressure=20 above B-a ambient) and the proton (at a pressure below=20 B-a ambient). To give a loose analogy which I wouldn't want to press too far. The earth receives directed radiation from the sun at one average wavelength and transmits it isotropically at a lower wavelength.=20 The higher wavelength is analogous to the Gamma-atmosphere. the lower to the Beta-atmosphere. >Frank, as I understand it you see charge as relative >to the background (beta-aether) rather like >temperature. As pressure, the inverse of temperature - but you're on the right track >If we were to call protons hot at 71 degrees and >electrons cold at 69 degrees then a hydrogen atom >would be neutral at 70 degrees because it averages >out. It would be at ambient pressure, neutral charge. >however if you separated the particles / charges, >having 10 electrons 69 degrees each on one side of a >wall and 10 protons at 71 degrees each on the other, >the charge imbalance should be 20, but the temperature >difference is still only 2 degrees. If you think of inverse temperature as a pressure then we are talking about stress per unit area and by having more charges you are in effect increasing the=20 area. The total force is the same but the stress is unchanged. >IMHO it is the absolute difference in charge rather >than the ratio that is important. > I don't think we are really in much disagreement. 8-) Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful and constructive=20 reply. It's nice to hear from people who are prepared=20 to think way, way, way outside the box. 8-) Also, your post will give me the incentive to find a better analogy for what I intuitively know must be the case. Cheers - and thanks Frank P.S. When I was first introduced to fluid dynamic phenomena I was struck by how counter intuitive they are. The flume for example; one would expect a stream to pile up higher and go slower when going through a=20 narrow opening. But it does the complete opposite.=20 It took me awhile to digest this post this insightful and delightful = post. It could become pattern for a new format ( dialog between members = views) I can now better understand Grimer's invention of the word " = compreture". Compressed temperature or the inverse of temperature. The = relationship between temperature and pressure begs for a better = definition of each. Perhaps we should obsolete the two words as we have = done with many electrical terms.=20 The words temperature and pressure are technically obsolete and cause = thinkers as well as readers to stumble. Grimer's explanation to Merlyn = required it to be couched in analogies because emerging scientific word = based terminology lags science theory. Likeso, instrumentation lags. = Science needs measurement instrumentation in "differential " format. = Reliance on " exact" measurement is a misnomer since there ain't no such = animal. Differential allows " float" which is permissible in mathematics = which in turn must form the base. The same is true of mathematics. = Hopefully some young wizard is even today thinking of the next level of = math necessary for " fleshing" out theory. A good example is the = socalled " Big Bang theory. Sounds great for a Hollywood movie but lacks = substance. The universe, creation, however you choose to describe it, is = dynamic. Big bang imposes conditions that creation does not accept.. I enjoyed the PS about flumes. One of the largest Parshal flumes ( 50 = foot throat) in the world is near Houston. Old man Parshal had it = right. Give the water a little hill to climb , drop it down a chute and = watch the falling water " pull" the inlet water over the hill and = through the throat like a chain.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C58EFD.D8C97A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
     

    At 12:24 pm 22/07/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote:

    > It is a very=20 compelling theory Frank,

    You say the nicest things, = Merlyn.  =20 8-)

    > but I don't think it works out.

    But here comes = the=20 "but"   ;^)


    >--- Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk> = wrote:
    >
    >> I=20 find myself in this situation with regard to the
    >> effect of = drop in=20 Beta-atmospheric (B-a) pressure
    >> on the strength of the = attraction=20 and repulsion of
    >> positive and negative charges. I am = confident that=20
    >> the explanation I have given is correct, albeit =
    >>=20 obscenely unorthodox, but I find I have to demand
    >> a = justification,=20 an explanation, from myself (my
    >> own worst critic) as to = why.=20
    >>
    >> To summarize the situation.
    >> =
    >>=20 The repulsive force between like charges is affected
    >> =
    >> by=20 the drop in B-a pressure as one enters into a
    >> material such = as=20 water, steel, concrete, palladium
    >> etc.
    >> =
    >> The=20 attractive force between unlike charges is
    >> unaffected by a = change=20 in the B-a pressure as one
    >> enters the material.
    >> =
    >> So the problem is:
    >>
    >>  =20 ------------------------------------------------
    >>   = Why are=20 repulsive forces affected and attractive
    >>   forces = not=20 affected by the B-a change?
    >>  =20 ------------------------------------------------
    >>  &= nbsp; =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D  =20
    >>     !     A TENSILE = STRESS=20 THEREFORE IS   !
    >>     !  = MERELY A=20 REDUCTION IN THE AMBIENT  !
    >>    =20 !     COMPRESSIVE STRESS AND=20 THE      !
    >>    =20 !   CONCEPT OF ACTION AT A DISTANCE  =20 !
    >>    =20 !        IS NO LONGER=20 REQUIRED       =20 !
    >>    =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    >>=20
    >>          = .....and that=20 really is the crux of the
    >> matter. The force that pushes the = like=20 charges
    >> apart emanates from those charges - but - the =
    >>=20 force that pushes the unlike charges together
    >> emanates, not = from=20 the charges, but from the
    >> charges' enveloping=20 environment.
    >>
    >> Let's, give it a name. Lets call = it the=20
    >> Gamma-aether, the Gamma-atmosphere (G-a),
    >> for = we are=20 assuredly dealing with two vastly
    >> different levels of the = total=20 Aether.
    >>
    >> The need for a Gamma-atmosphere was = implicitly=20
    >> recognised in the Southampton paper by
    >> = designating the=20 familiar atmosphere, the air,
    >> as the Alpha-atmosphere = (A-a)to both=20 distinguish
    >> it from the Beta-atmosphere and to provide for=20
    >> up to 22 more enveloping atmospheres as they
    >> = become=20 required. <g>
    >>
    >> Now it is not that the = change in=20 the B-a pressure
    >> does not affect the value of the Gamma = atmosphere=20
    >> pressure at all. It does affect it. But the G-a =
    >>=20 pressure is so bloody enormous that the change
    >> brought = about by a=20 change in the B-a is negligible.
    >> Anybody familiar with = calculus=20 will be very
    >> familiar with thingees being negligible when=20
    >> they are very small compared with other = thingees.
    >>=20
    >>
    >> When the B-a pressure is lowered, as it is=20
    >> in the "FLUID PHASE" reduced B-a pressure of
    >> a = material such as water or metal, the
    >> repulsion between = positive=20 charges is reduced.
    >> In other words, the Coulomb Barrier=20 between
    >> positive charges is lowered. This is the =
    >>=20 essential key to understanding Cold Fusion.
    >>
    >> = And in=20 order to make progress in bringing CF to a
    >> commercial = product,=20 without blowing oneself up in
    >> the process, one would be = well=20 advised to take
    >> Whitehead's good advice.
    >>=20
    >> 
    >>=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D




    >Picture=20 it this way...
    >
    >I have a spring (coulomb force) separating = 2=20 steel
    >plates (protons)
    >Note that the space between the = plates is=20 open to the
    >surroundings atmosphere and not sealed.
    >The = force=20 required to move the plates closer together
    >is very precisely = calculated=20 in air at 14.7 psi.
    >Now if I were to place the entire apparatus=20 under
    >water where the pressure was raised to 100 psi = would
    >it make=20 any difference in the force needed to compress
    >the spring?  = The=20 added pressure acts equally on all
    >sides of the plates and so = cancels=20 out.


    I don't see the repulsive force between two like = charges
    as=20 something static, but something dynamic, a flux, a
    flow of substance. = Now,=20 clearly, the repulsive pressure
    this flow will exert will be = proportional to=20 the difference
    between the pressure of the outgoing flow and the = ambient=20
    pressure of the field. If both pressures are the same,
    for = example, then=20 there can be no repulsion.

    The nature of the "attractive" force = is quite=20 different.
    It doesn't emanate from the charges themselves but = from
    the=20 ambient field.

    It is brought about by the Bernoulli pressure drop = in the=20
    flow and counter flow between the electron (at a pressure
    above = B-a=20 ambient) and the proton (at a pressure below
    B-a ambient).

    To = give a=20 loose analogy which I wouldn't want to press too
    far. The earth = receives=20 directed radiation from the sun
    at one average wavelength and = transmits it=20 isotropically
    at a lower wavelength.

    The higher wavelength is = analogous to the Gamma-atmosphere.
    the lower to the=20 Beta-atmosphere.

    >Frank, as I understand it you see charge as=20 relative
    >to the background (beta-aether) rather=20 like
    >temperature.

    As pressure, the inverse of temperature = - but=20 you're
    on the right track

    >If we were to call protons hot = at 71=20 degrees and
    >electrons cold at 69 degrees then a hydrogen=20 atom
    >would be neutral at 70 degrees because it=20 averages
    >out.

    It would be at ambient pressure, neutral=20 charge.


    >however if you separated the particles /=20 charges,
    >having 10 electrons 69 degrees each on one side of=20 a
    >wall and 10 protons at 71 degrees each on the other,
    >the = charge=20 imbalance should be 20, but the temperature
    >difference is still = only 2=20 degrees.


    If you think of inverse temperature as a pressure = then
    we=20 are talking about stress per unit area and by
    having more charges you = are in=20 effect increasing the
    area. The total force is the same but the = stress=20 is
    unchanged.

    >IMHO it is the absolute difference in charge = rather
    >than the ratio that is important.
    >
    I don't think = we are=20 really in much disagreement. 8-)

    Anyway, thanks for your = thoughtful and=20 constructive
    reply. It's nice to hear from people who are prepared =
    to=20 think way, way, way outside the box.   8-)

    Also, your = post will=20 give me the incentive to find
    a better analogy for what I intuitively = know=20 must
    be the case.

    Cheers - and thanks

    Frank

    P.S. = When I=20 was first introduced to fluid dynamic
    phenomena I was struck by how = counter=20 intuitive they
    are. The flume for example; one would expect a = stream
    to=20 pile up higher and go slower when going through a
    narrow opening. = But it=20 does the complete opposite.

    It took me awhile to digest this = post this=20 insightful and delightful post. It could become pattern for a new=20 format ( dialog between members views)

     I can now better understand Grimer's invention of the word "=20 compreture". Compressed temperature or the inverse of temperature. The=20 relationship between temperature and pressure begs for a better = definition of=20 each. Perhaps we should obsolete the two words as we have done with = many=20 electrical terms. 

    The words temperature and pressure are technically obsolete and = cause=20 thinkers as well as readers to stumble. Grimer's explanation to=20 Merlyn required it to be couched in analogies because emerging = scientific word based terminology lags science theory. Likeso, = instrumentation=20 lags. Science needs measurement instrumentation in "differential " = format.=20 Reliance on " exact" measurement is a misnomer since there ain't no such = animal.=20 Differential allows " float" which is permissible in mathematics which = in turn=20 must form the base. The same is true of mathematics. Hopefully some = young wizard=20 is even today thinking of the next level of math necessary for " = fleshing" out=20 theory. A good example is the socalled " Big Bang theory. Sounds great = for a=20 Hollywood movie but lacks substance. The universe, = creation, however you=20 choose to describe it, is dynamic. Big bang imposes conditions that = creation=20 does not accept..

    I enjoyed the PS about flumes. One of the largest Parshal flumes ( 50 = foot=20 throat) in the world is near Houston.  Old man Parshal had it = right. Give=20 the water a little hill to climb ,  drop it down a chute and = watch the=20 falling water " pull" the inlet water over the hill and through the = throat=20 like a chain. 

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C58EFD.D8C97A80-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C58EFD.D8C7F3E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c58f27$c1455490$93027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C58EFD.D8C7F3E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 18:51:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6N1optq014066; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:51:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6N1oo04014037; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:50:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:50:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050722213900.00ba7330 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:46:29 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic In-Reply-To: <42E021B2.5040504 ix.netcom.com> References: <42E021B2.5040504 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.86rc1/988/Fri Jul 22 08:29:55 2005 on pcls1.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: <9e800B.A.QbD.6Ja4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How good could the article be with such inaccuracy about cold fusion? The Real Deal, The verdict so far: Cold fusion is achievable by hard effort. Proof: Update to the Cold Fusion Times (volume 12, number 2) is up at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html [click on pic for larger pic]. Dr. Mitchell Swartz ======================================================================= At 06:29 PM 7/21/2005, you wrote: >The National Geographic in the August issue has a good article on the >energy problem. They even mention cold fusion - "A few scientists have >claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar instead >of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: No such >luck." The article goes on to point out the most serious problems with >hot fusion. Not bad, we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. However, >something better work soon because the situation is getting serious. > >Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 18:54:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6N1rerS015044; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:53:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6N1rdj2015024; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:53:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:53:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050722214635.02175ab8 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:48:03 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Cold Fusion Times - volume 12, number 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.86rc1/988/Fri Jul 22 08:29:55 2005 on pcls3.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: <171rY.A.oqD.iMa4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Update to the Cold Fusion Times (volume 12, number 2) is up at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html [click on pic for larger pic]. Contents: The MIT 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium with Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove FUSION ADVANCES Cavitation/Ferroelectic Fusion D-D Fusion in Ferroelectrics FUSION AROUND THE WORLD DOE 2nd Review 2nd DOE Review Analyzed Summary of DOE DOE Report on "Cold Fusion" Recommends More Research Update on Murder of Dr. Mallove Murder Suspects Identified Suspect In Mallove Murder Has Probable Cause Hearing Accountability From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 20:40:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6N3eWmU022690; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:40:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6N3eUis022670; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:40:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:40:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050723034012.00956b98 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:40:12 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:04 pm 22/07/2005 -0500, you wrote: >BlankRichard wrote.. > Frank, a simple proof of principle of your thoughts >> on catalysis can be observed with the mixing of a >> two part epoxy. Try mixing a cubic inch square mold >> full versus a thin film layer on a surface. >> The reaction and hardening time differs whereas the >> cubic inch mold reaction time will be up to 12 or >> more times faster than the thin film. This should >> not be. The thin film should harden faster than the >> cube. >> >Grimer wrote.. >> In the example you quote it would no doubt be argued that the heat >> of reaction for the cube can't escape as easily as for the thin >> film and that this heat speeds up the hardening process. > The use of 2 part epoxy as an example over concrete is used > because of the heat of reaction of epoxy is more obvious to > everyone over concrete. Near identical reactive events occur > in both. If you identify it as a chemical reaction you have > locked yourself in the cloakroom.. it is a B-a and G-a event > beyond chemistry as defined. I see what you are saying but I think you are ahead of ne there, Richard. When one has been addicted to something like smoking all one's life it is very difficult to give up the habit all at once. Likewise, once one sees the "light" it is very difficult to give up darkness. One has to force oneself to think of the world turning around rather than the sun rising in the east and going down in the west. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 23:30:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6N6UItY025806; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:30:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6N6UH9w025794; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:30:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:30:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050723062954.009c9c40 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:29:54 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: <7PK90.A.-SG.4Pe4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:24 pm 22/07/2005 -0700, wrote: >It is a very compelling theory Frank, but I don't >think it works out. > Spurred on by Merlyn, the "Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist", who by his own appelation has obviously the right approach to the way out thinking required for a conceptual revolution, I am encouraged to attack the problem from all angels - oops, from all angles - but maybe I was right the first time, eh! 8-) Now it may be that we have two perfectly good Beta and Gamma atmospheres already in the electric and magnetic "atmospheres" sometimes known as fields. ;-) >From an kitchen table phenomena point of view it is evident that magnetic phenomena are vastly more powerful than electric phenomena and so we can provisionally identify the Beta-atmosphere as the electric atmosphere and the Gamma-atmosphere as the magnetic atmosphere. So just to get a feel for things Say, Alpha-atmospheric pressure = 15 psi Beta-atmospheric pressure = 150,000 psi Gamma-atmospheric pressure = 1,500,000,000 psi I am not of course suggesting that these are the actual figure. They are just there to give one's imagination something to chew on. Now let's say that the repulsive force between like charges is a force which emanates from the electric pressure of those charges. It it an electric force, a Beta-atmosphere force. Its magnitude is dependent on the arithmetic difference between the charge pressure and the ambient field pressure. We can think of this as the electric strain energy. A negative charge is at a higher pressure than the ambient electric atmosphere pressure and therefore has positive strain energy. A positive charge is at lower pressure than the ambient electric atmosphere pressure and therefor has negative strain energy. Now lowering the ambient electric pressure as one does when entering into the tension phase of a material leads to an increase in the difference between the negative charge pressure and the field pressure. Conversely lowering the ambient electric pressure leads to a decrease in the difference between the positive charge pressure and the field pressure. So negative charges become more repulsive and positive charges become less repulsive. Let's invent some figures. Initially, Negative charge pressure = 160,000 psi Ambient B-a pressure = 150,000 psi Positive charge pressure = 140,000 psi whence, Negative charge strain = +10,000 psi Positive charge strain = -10,000 psi Say that as one enters the material the Ambient B-a pressure drops to 143,000 psi, say. So now, Negative charge strain = +17,000 psi Positive charge strain = - 3,000 psi The arithmetic value of the charge strain is the measure of the repulsive force between like charges. Now the "attractive" force between unlike charges is not a property of the charge but a property of the surrounding field the magnetic atmosphere, the G-a in just the same way as the "attractive" force of a vacuum cleaner is not a property of the cleaner but a property of the air, the Alpha-atmosphere. The cleaner doesn't suck, the atmosphere blows. Any change in the electric atmosphere pressure has a negligible effect on the magnetic atmosphere pressure and so the attractive force between unlike charges is not affected. It would seem that the electric field pressures must be something like the difference between two much larger magnetic field pressures. Remember, above ambient a below ambient pressure are asymmetrical in terms of energy. The difference between strain, e, and strain energy e^2 must come into it somewhere but I'm not at a point where I can see quite how - not yet. 8-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 22 23:55:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6N6sV2Z003086; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:54:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6N6sU6f003079; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:54:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:54:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050722234523.029f44a8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:53:21 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: JED ROTHWELL CF Letter in Havard Paper In-Reply-To: <00d401c58f1b$b07d2e50$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> References: <00d401c58f1b$b07d2e50$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=508297 Good job Jed....they didn't print mine. I can see that yours was a better choice. But even still, I suspect that my, and perhaps other letters made them take notice. I think we should all keep this in mind. Cold fusion is at a transition point between Schopenhaurer Phase 2 and Phase 3. We can help push it into Phase 3 with this sort of activism. The more letters to the editors, from those of us "in the know," the better. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 02:44:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6N9h9I2004478; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:43:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6N9h869004468; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:43:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:43:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050723094246.009bba90 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:42:46 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: JED ROTHWELL CF Letter in Havard Paper Resent-Message-ID: <6WybXB.A.rFB.rEh4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:53 pm 22/07/2005 -0700, you wrote: >http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=508297 > > >Good job Jed....they didn't print mine. I can see that yours was a better >choice. But even still, I suspect that my, and perhaps other letters made >them take notice. I think we should all keep this in mind. Cold fusion is >at a transition point between Schopenhaurer Phase 2 and Phase 3. We can >help push it into Phase 3 with this sort of activism. > >The more letters to the editors, from those of us "in the know," the better. Yeah - Well done, Jed. I said you would make a good defence barrister. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 04:39:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NBcvRI009370; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:39:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NBcs5V009339; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:38:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:38:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=AI5po9FzfTyGfOFp2LdQYu8OSr03ILC5Oo/3WmXrpmNF3ne8M7aZbKhZIhK4kYtx; Message-ID: <410-220057623103857530 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU in the MAHG Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:38:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402e269937960caeaa666bcf0801903db0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.89 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Some figures on how much a 0.46 eV (Casimir Force Aided) collision changes the ~ 1.0E-10 meter H - H spacing R in a H2 gas molecule: H - H separation equilibrium Force = 2.304E-28/(1.0E-10)^2 = 2.304e-8 nt H - H potential energy E = 2.304E-28/1.0E-10 = 2.304E-18 joule The H - H (dumb bell) energy change dE based on a 0.46 eV collision is 7.44E-20 joule (R' = 9.686E-11 meters) and the force change dF = 1.518E-9 nt. How much does the Casimir Force contribute to the thermal force, if the MAHG gas is OU by a factor of 20? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Some figures on how much a 0.46 eV (Casimir Force Aided) collision changes the
     ~ 1.0E-10 meter H - H spacing R in a H2 gas molecule:
     
    H - H separation equilibrium Force = 2.304E-28/(1.0E-10)^2 = 2.304e-8 nt
     
    H - H potential energy  E = 2.304E-28/1.0E-10 = 2.304E-18 joule
     
    The H - H (dumb bell) energy change dE based on a 0.46 eV collision is
    7.44E-20 joule (R'  = 9.686E-11 meters) and the force change dF = 1.518E-9 nt.
     
    How much does the Casimir Force contribute to the thermal force, 
    if the MAHG gas is OU by a factor of 20?
     
    Frederick
     
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 04:40:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NBdZVL009603; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:39:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NBdYlX009571; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:39:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:39:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050723113911.009d6980 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:39:11 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:24 pm 22/07/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: > It is a very compelling theory Frank... There's something I've missed out on up to this point to which I will now draw attention in order to raise the "compulsion" compreture. 8-) I am not at this stage interested in, electron - electron positron - positron repulsion. Nor am I interested in, electron - positron, positron - electron "attraction". All that can come later. What interests me is, electron - electron proton - proton repulsion, and electron - proton proton - electron "attraction" I've put quotation marks around the word attraction cos it ain't the electron and the proton which are the active agent but the surrounding environment - the ZPE ocean. The Proton is like a monstrous battleship which is surrounded by the swirling waters of the zero point energy ocean. If the small sailing boat the Saucy Electron gets too near HMS Proton it will be "sucked" in to the side of the ship. It will slide down the flume type depression. Of course, the Saucy Electron is not "sucked" at all. It is pushed by the water on the side away from HMS Proton which is higher than the water on the side of Saucy nearer to Proton. Now it is evident that a charged electron is a very different animal from a charged proton. The repulsion between two charged electrons is a repulsion between two particles with a very small mass. The repulsion between two charged protons on the other hand is a repulsion between two particles with a very large mass. This must make a difference. By contrast, the ZPE repulsion which forces the electron and proton together will the same as the ZPE repulsion which forces the proton and electron together because it is the same Zero Point Energy ocean in both cases. So one can see how altering the Beta-atmosphere pressure might alter two effects which have very different active agents, whilst not altering two effects (proton-electron "attraction" and electron-proton "attraction") which have the same active agent, the ZPE ocean. That's quite enough for one post. 8-) Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 05:34:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NCYQ9E030937; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:34:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NCYP7C030903; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:34:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:34:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jR7Hh+focVB20So+qtVhtpAlXJZxYDVpUhp4e80szONCFywrRuKS4fJsNZ1FyVrO; Message-ID: <410-22005762311343660 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Casimir Assisted OU in the MAHG Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:34:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94022d70bc964765c868449e22f7651a4d0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.126 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Paint Your Wagon and use two spring-connected sets in the collision (if you had them) :-) http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph11e/collision.htm Some figures on how much a 0.46 eV (Casimir Force Aided) collision changes the ~ 1.0E-10 meter H - H spacing R in a H2 gas molecule: H - H separation equilibrium Force = 2.304E-28/(1.0E-10)^2 = 2.304e-8 nt H - H potential energy E = 2.304E-28/1.0E-10 = 2.304E-18 joule The H - H (dumb bell) energy change dE based on a 0.46 eV collision is 7.44E-20 joule (R' = 9.686E-11 meters) and the force change dF = 1.518E-9 nt. How much does the Casimir Force contribute to the thermal force, if the MAHG gas is OU by a factor of 20? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
    Paint Your Wagon and use two spring-connected sets in the collision
    (if you had them)    :-)

    Some figures on how much a 0.46 eV (Casimir Force Aided) collision changes the
     ~ 1.0E-10 meter H - H spacing R in a H2 gas molecule:
     
    H - H separation equilibrium Force = 2.304E-28/(1.0E-10)^2 = 2.304e-8 nt
     
    H - H potential energy  E = 2.304E-28/1.0E-10 = 2.304E-18 joule
     
    The H - H (dumb bell) energy change dE based on a 0.46 eV collision is
    7.44E-20 joule (R'  = 9.686E-11 meters) and the force change dF = 1.518E-9 nt.
     
    How much does the Casimir Force contribute to the thermal force, 
    if the MAHG gas is OU by a factor of 20?
     
    Frederick
     
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 05:51:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NCooao003624; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:51:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NConfn003609; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:50:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:50:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c58f85$15f30e80$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re:The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:49:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C58F5B.14F4CA70"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C58F5B.14F4CA70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C58F5B.14F65110" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C58F5B.14F65110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAt 04:04 pm 22/07/2005 -0500, you wrote: >BlankRichard wrote.. > Frank, a simple proof of principle of your thoughts=20 >> on catalysis can be observed with the mixing of a=20 >> two part epoxy. Try mixing a cubic inch square mold=20 >> full versus a thin film layer on a surface.=20 >> The reaction and hardening time differs whereas the=20 >> cubic inch mold reaction time will be up to 12 or=20 >> more times faster than the thin film. This should=20 >> not be. The thin film should harden faster than the=20 >> cube. >> >Grimer wrote.. >> In the example you quote it would no doubt be argued that the heat=20 >> of reaction for the cube can't escape as easily as for the thin=20 >> film and that this heat speeds up the hardening process. > The use of 2 part epoxy as an example over concrete is used=20 > because of the heat of reaction of epoxy is more obvious to=20 > everyone over concrete. Near identical reactive events occur=20 > in both. If you identify it as a chemical reaction you have=20 > locked yourself in the cloakroom.. it is a B-a and G-a event=20 > beyond chemistry as defined. I see what you are saying but I think you are ahead of ne there, Richard. When one has been addicted to something like smoking all one's life it is very difficult to give=20 up the habit all at once. Likewise, once one sees the "light" it is very difficult to give up darkness. One has to force oneself to think of the world turning around rather than the=20 sun rising in the east and going down in the west. Frank Progress, we are making progress. Firrt, one must step out of the box = before one can begin thinking outside the box. In another post I read Grimer's response to Merlyn that is intriguing = in its concept. To reinforce your thought train I will pass on an = experience in electrical grounding surrounding high resistive loads = starting and stopping across the line.=20 Some our electronics installed at a large municipal plant were playing = games with us. We suggested the problem was improper grounding and were = rebuffed. Finally we rented a Dranitz power recorder to " capture" and = record electrical events taking place on the incoming power during = starting and stopping blowers (loads of 250 Hp 460 vac 60hz 3 phase or = greater) . The high speed strip chart recorder picked up spikes of = 12,000 v at a moment of 1/1000 sec duration. The strange part was the = recorder also picked up a change in frequency 'blip"from below 56hz up = to 71hz. No one could explain this event. The power company checked on = their side of the transformer and the hertz remained 60 on the = nose.After a full set of grounding rings was installed around the blower = building the problems with the electronics went away. =20 After all these years I believe I finally have to answer to the mystery = of the momentary swing in frequency contained in Grimer's response to = Merlyn. Anyone experienced with accumulators ( gas over liquid pressure systems = ) has a few choice tales to tell about the strange shifts in gauge = pressure that remain unexplained. Standard precision pressure gauges = tend to play tricks while your back is momentarily turn by changing the = pressure slightly. Try using a differential pressure gauge and = compensate for the liquid head only to discover the differential gauge = plays even sneaker tricks.Few ever noticed before the advent of digital = readout. All in the way of verification that Grimer is on to something = interesting. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C58F5B.14F65110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    At 04:04 pm 22/07/2005 -0500, you wrote:
    >BlankRichard=20 wrote..
    > Frank, a simple proof of principle of your thoughts =
    >>=20 on catalysis can be observed with the mixing of a
    >> two part = epoxy.=20 Try mixing a cubic inch square mold
    >> full versus a thin film = layer=20 on a surface.
    >> The reaction and hardening time differs = whereas the=20
    >> cubic inch mold reaction time will be up to 12 or =
    >> more=20 times faster than the thin film. This should
    >> not be. The = thin film=20 should harden faster than the
    >> = cube.
    >>
    >Grimer=20 wrote..
    >> In the example you quote it would no doubt be argued = that=20 the heat
    >> of reaction for the cube can't escape as easily as = for the=20 thin
    >> film and that this heat speeds up the hardening=20 process.

    > The use of 2 part epoxy as an example over concrete = is used=20
    > because of the heat of reaction of epoxy is more obvious to =
    >=20 everyone over concrete. Near identical reactive events occur
    > in = both.=20 If you identify it as a chemical reaction you have
    > locked = yourself in=20 the cloakroom.. it is a B-a and G-a event
    > beyond chemistry as=20 defined.

    I see what you are saying but I think you are ahead = of
    ne=20 there, Richard. When one has been addicted to something
    like smoking = all=20 one's life it is very difficult to give
    up the habit all at once. = Likewise,=20 once one sees the "light"
    it is very difficult to give up darkness. = One has=20 to force
    oneself to think of the world turning around rather than the =
    sun=20 rising in the east and going down in the west.

    Frank
    Progress, we are making progress. Firrt, one must  step = out of=20 the box before one can begin thinking outside the box.
    In another post I  read Grimer's response to Merlyn that = is=20 intriguing in its concept. To reinforce your thought train I will pass = on an=20 experience in electrical grounding  surrounding high resistive = loads=20 starting and stopping across the line.
    Some our electronics installed at a large municipal plant were = playing=20 games with us. We suggested the problem was improper grounding and were=20 rebuffed. Finally we rented a Dranitz power recorder to " capture" and = record=20 electrical events taking place on the incoming power during starting and = stopping  blowers (loads of 250 Hp 460 vac 60hz 3 phase or = greater) .=20 The high speed strip chart recorder picked up spikes of 12,000 v at a = moment of=20 1/1000 sec duration. The strange part was the recorder also picked up a = change=20 in frequency 'blip"from below  56hz up to 71hz. No one could = explain this=20 event. The power company checked on their side of the transformer and = the hertz=20 remained 60 on the nose.After a full set of grounding rings was = installed around=20 the blower building the problems with the electronics went away.  =
    After all these years I believe I finally have to answer to the = mystery of=20 the momentary swing in frequency contained in Grimer's response to=20 Merlyn.
     
    Anyone experienced with accumulators ( gas over liquid pressure = systems )=20 has a few choice tales to tell about the strange  shifts in gauge = pressure=20 that remain unexplained. Standard precision pressure gauges tend to play = tricks=20 while your back is momentarily turn by changing the pressure slightly. = Try using=20 a differential pressure gauge and compensate for the liquid head only to = discover the differential gauge plays even sneaker tricks.Few ever = noticed=20 before the advent of digital readout.
     
    All in the way of verification that Grimer is on to something=20 interesting.
     
    Richard

     

    ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C58F5B.14F65110-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C58F5B.14F4CA70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c58f84$fdba0990$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C58F5B.14F4CA70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 06:31:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NDUcPp018806; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:30:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NDUaqs018785; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:30:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:30:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=pnHAAr789SOy8kXqBrZatZFSUdMKe4ulZ/iXlCnfWp10I5RvpKXhIP2p/1UZUV7R; Message-ID: <410-220057623123038280 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:30:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fbaf062b0025102d913dad4c1ebb9942350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.95 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Grimer Sez: > > What interests me is, > > electron - electron > proton - proton > > repulsion, > > and > > electron - proton > proton - electron > > "attraction" > Here Here. > > I've put quotation marks around the word > attraction cos it ain't the electron and the > proton which are the active agent but the > surrounding environment - the ZPE ocean. > Casimir Force omnidirectional push, no? > > The Proton is like a monstrous battleship which > is surrounded by the swirling waters of the zero > point energy ocean. If the small sailing boat > the Saucy Electron gets too near HMS Proton it > will be "sucked" in to the side of the ship. It > will slide down the flume type depression. > Sounds like Einstein's rubber membrane Gravity Demo. > > Of course, the Saucy Electron is not "sucked" > at all. It is pushed by the water on the side > away from HMS Proton which is higher than the > water on the side of Saucy nearer to Proton. > > Now it is evident that a charged electron is a > very different animal from a charged proton. > The repulsion between two charged electrons is > a repulsion between two particles with a very > small mass. > > The repulsion between two charged protons on > the other hand is a repulsion between two > particles with a very large mass. > > This must make a difference. > > By contrast, the ZPE repulsion which forces > the electron and proton together will (be) the > same as the ZPE repulsion which forces the > proton and electron together because it is > the same Zero Point Energy ocean in both > cases. > > So one can see how altering the Beta-atmosphere > pressure might alter two effects which have very > different active agents, whilst not altering > two effects (proton-electron "attraction" and > electron-proton "attraction") which have the > same active agent, the ZPE ocean. > > That's quite enough for one post. 8-) > Well stated, Frank. The speed of a submarine or fish in the ocean is limited by the displacement of the mass (virtual mass) of the water as it moves, no matter how "streamlined" it is. OTOH, the vacuum ether (or Beta Ether) has no mass, hence no "ether drag" until you start to get near the speed of light. We await the next post with baited breath. :-) Frederick > > Cheers > > Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 07:03:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NE2bWD028256; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:02:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NE2Y6A028233; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:02:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:02:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=S2hmny54aPcAMOGpO1ZB528MN1L1mCRDRrmgr1Wz9jFsN9op8iAHfLWIEsVhEQRe; Message-ID: <410-22005762313235510 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Slingshot Effect & The Casimer Force. Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:02:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a8cc26642b821f7dd0e21a4e09b1c4f9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.215 Resent-Message-ID: <_tWiF.A.D5G.63k4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Is the Slingshot Effect actually the Casimir Force in Action? http://www.dur.ac.uk/bob.johnson/SL/ " The slingshot effect is used to accelerate a spacecraft in a planetary flyby. NASA calls this a gravity assist, and exploits it to save fuel in missions to outer planets such as Jupiter and Saturn. The planets continue in their orbits unaffected, and so at first sight this seems like something for nothing, a cosmic perpetual-motion trick. But the physics is straightforward, resting only on conservation of momentum and of energy -- and involving the huge mass ratio between planet and spacecraft ..." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Is the Slingshot Effect actually the Casimir Force in Action?
     
     
    " The slingshot effect is used to accelerate a spacecraft in a planetary flyby. NASA calls this a gravity assist, and exploits it to save fuel in missions to outer planets such as Jupiter and Saturn. The planets continue in their orbits unaffected, and so at first sight this seems like something for nothing, a cosmic perpetual-motion trick.
    But the physics is straightforward, resting only on conservation of momentum and of energy -- and involving the huge mass ratio between planet and spacecraft ..."
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 07:51:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NEpMRJ016224; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:51:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NEpLU8016206; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:51:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:51:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=L9cEsEjY5RczOlH7793M4TCRv7wcXPBYBqGydWuym0T+yk8ErO3w0s6Bjxzlkjeh; Message-ID: <410-22005762313511180 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Slingshot Effect & The Casimer Force. Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:51:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b8131d207646c750b06e831b1989531a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.38 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nice Coverage of the Double Ball Drop. Where is Georgia State University located? Will Jones Beene invoke the H2-Tungsten molecules (and wall collisions) of the MAHG in this? :-) http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html "If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball like a large superball, the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high velocity, theoretically approaching three times the velocity with which the balls strike the surface. The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic collisions and in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits used in space exploration have features in common with this situation even though the objects involved never touch each other" Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Nice Coverage of the Double Ball Drop.
     
    Where is Georgia State University located?
     
    Will Jones Beene invoke the H2-Tungsten molecules (and wall collisions) of the MAHG in this?   :-)
     
     
    "If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball like a large superball, the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high velocity, theoretically approaching three times the velocity with which the balls strike the surface. The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic collisions and in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits used in space exploration have features in common with this situation even though the objects involved never touch each other"
     
    Frederick
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 08:07:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NF6N8P023039; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:06:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NF6LnQ023021; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:06:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:06:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050723150601.009e2c34 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:06:01 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:30 am 23/07/2005 -0500, Fred wrote: >Frank Grimer Sez: ----------------------------------------------- >> What interests me is, >> >> electron - electron >> proton - proton >> >> repulsion, >> >> and >> >> electron - proton >> proton - electron >> >> "attraction" >Here Here. ----------------------------------------------- >> I've put quotation marks around the word >> attraction cos it ain't the electron and the >> proton which are the active agent but the >> surrounding environment - the ZPE ocean. > Casimir Force omnidirectional push, no? Yes and no. Hydrostatic on the large scale. hydrodynamic on the small scale ----------------------------------------------- >> The Proton is like a monstrous battleship which >> is surrounded by the swirling waters of the zero >> point energy ocean. If the small sailing boat >> the Saucy Electron gets too near HMS Proton it >> will be "sucked" in to the side of the ship. It >> will slide down the flume type depression. > Sounds like Einstein's rubber membrane Gravity Demo. One has to think in dynamic terms, not static. One has to remember that whichever way the water sloshes around between Saucy and Proton there will be a flume type depression. All that's required is that it sloshes. ----------------------------------------------- >> Of course, the Saucy Electron is not "sucked" >> at all. It is pushed by the water on the side >> away from HMS Proton which is higher than the >> water on the side of Saucy nearer to Proton. >> >> Now it is evident that a charged electron is a >> very different animal from a charged proton. >> The repulsion between two charged electrons is >> a repulsion between two particles with a very >> small mass. >> >> The repulsion between two charged protons on >> the other hand is a repulsion between two >> particles with a very large mass. >> >> This must make a difference. >> >> By contrast, the ZPE repulsion which forces >> the electron and proton together will (be) the >> same as the ZPE repulsion which forces the >> proton and electron together because it is >> the same Zero Point Energy ocean in both >> cases. >> >> So one can see how altering the Beta-atmosphere >> pressure might alter two effects which have very >> different active agents, whilst not altering >> two effects (proton-electron "attraction" and >> electron-proton "attraction") which have the >> same active agent, the ZPE ocean. >> >> That's quite enough for one post. 8-) >Well stated, Frank. ----------------------------------------------- > The speed of a submarine or fish in the ocean is limited by > the displacement of the mass (virtual mass) of the water as it > moves, no matter how "streamlined" it is. > OTOH, the vacuum ether (or Beta Ether) has no mass,... Wrong! It has Neutral Mass. Mass is energy. And energy is motion^2 So energy can be positive or negative as exemplified by strain energy (epsilon^2) which can be tensile strain energy or compressive strain energy. So mass can be positive or negative. Mass is not a measure of substance but a measure of motion relative to the environment as both Ing.Saviour and I have independently realised. (see his and my Yahoo sites for details). Negative mass is like positive charge, mass below the ambient mass of the environment. When a positron and an electron collapse into each other's arms they do not simply disappear. They form a particle with neutral charge and neutral mass, as Hotson implicitly realised. I recognised it in a slightly different way as the fourth member of the minimalist nuclear Mendeleev type table and christened it the Materon. This particle is substantial, which means it must occupy space and must have a location in that space. If it's hit by the right kind of energy it splits apart and appears as a positron and electron. After all - Think about it man! Why on earth should a photon suddenly produce a positron and an electron out of nothing. What makes that pin-point in "nothingness" more special than some other pin-point. An Angel? That ain't physics - That's bloody MAGIC! ----------------------------------------------- Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 08:17:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NFHHht028556; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:17:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NFHGd7028533; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:17:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:17:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <27422368.1122131819218.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:16:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: JED ROTHWELL CF Letter in Havard Paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ha, they published it. I'll be darned! Steve is right: we need to keep writing letters. Keep up the drumbeat. I recommend letters that are: Short Factual Unemotional Authoritative It is probably not a good idea to mention highly controversial aspects of CF, such as the fact that MIT cheated. I avoid attacking Park or Taubes by name. Also, you should not claim that CF may save the world. Of course I think MIT did cheat and CF may save the world, and I would never hesitate to say so when asked, but to get a letter published -- to get your foot in the door, as it were -- you have to start with a more neutral position. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 08:26:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NFPQbs031739; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:25:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NFPPRk031714; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:25:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:25:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:25:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz writes: > How good could the article be with such inaccuracy about cold fusion? > > The Real Deal, The verdict so far: Cold fusion is achievable by hard effort. I agree that this National Geographic comment is awful, and I think Ed agrees. But as they say in show business, any publicity is good publicity. Even an attack on cold fusion helps draw attention to it. It motivates people to look at on-line publications such as Swartz's and LENR-CANR. That is always a plus. I have noticed an upsurge in interest for the past few weeks, mainly from Germany and Italy, from the links I listed here. It is nothing dramatic, but on the other hand traffic is usually very low this time of year because colleges are not in session, except for summer school. Our traffic usually tracks the academic calendar. During final exam weeks, it drops to nothing! That is one of the reasons I think most of our readers are students and professors. In my opinion, we cannot ask for a better audience. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 08:39:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NFcbrO006221; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:38:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NFcZMh006195; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:38:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:38:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.42.53] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Slingshot Effect & The Casimer Force. Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:38:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050723153812.KOF11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Where is Georgia State University located? Right smack in the middle of Hotlanta. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 08:46:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NFkL1h009756; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:46:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NFkKMY009737; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:46:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:46:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01c58f9d$9bc280a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "vortex-l" References: <410-22005762313511180 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: The Slingshot Effect & The Casimer Force. Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:45:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, > Where is Georgia State University located? I suspect that Georgia Tech and Emory alums would place it in the "second tier " of higher academia in Atlanta. > Will Jones Beene invoke the H2-Tungsten molecules (and wall > collisions) of the MAHG in this? :-) http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html It actually tends to support your view on the Casimir more than mine - in that it does provide the assymetry which is still absent from your earlier explanation, to wit: > "The Casimir Plate experiments prove the existence of the > unidirectional force. Yes, but the plate experiment has a built-in asymmetery in that the inside surfaces of the plates are "contstrained" in the sense of being forced to maintain a fixed distance apart while the outer side is not. That is your *asymmetry* in the plate experiment. There is none in a gas. > The "asymmetry" is in the 1/R^2 coulomb repulsion force acting > against the hard ball thermal collision-inertia compressive "squeeze" of the H2 atoms (of the molecule) acting in conjunction with the 1/R^4 Casimir force..... No, that isn't correct. When you get to the spatial dimension of the molecule itself, then you are way past (lower than) the operating geometry for the Casimr force, which is 2-10 nm. Below 2 nm it disappears. The thermal collision in a gas will be at an order of magnitude closer distance than that. However, you have (inadvertently?) redeemed yourself with the double ball "slingshot" effect since here the big ball can be the tungsten "spin particle" (of spintronics theory) which is in a size range where its center of mass will be at the maximum of 2 nm from an approaching H2 molecule. There is the asymmetry which your earlier expalantion lacked !! But the OU reaction only takes place at the wall interface. Even though the Casimir will operate symmetrically anyway, near the wall or not, if it doubles the velocity "going in" and halves it "coming out" there is still this asymmetrical slingshot gain. So it would not change this normal gain unless.... They claim the gain is 9x but remember this is coming from Georgia State, not Georgia Tech. Rather than place a smiley here, let me say clearly that this is a joke, and they probably are correct, but other analysis differs (Fusor) And if the gain happend to be 3e2 intead of a linear 9, then the net gain in kinetic energy factoring in the Casimir would be 18 instead of 9 (if the Casimir was operating at a factor of 2 in that it doubled or halved the applicable vector). Actually Richard Hull has determined (and proven, essentially) that the gain in a head-on collision, like in the Fusor - is a power-law gain - at least a square of the initial kinetic energy. I never though of it before, but the Fusor could be a (partly) Casimir-powered device. Let me look that up to confirm it, as I am going from memeroy here. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 11:18:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NIHrlC009628; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:18:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NIHpFC009614; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:17:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:17:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=eOoghyU2n5zXuUgfBE4lpiUDS9ZCCjkHJoLhBOQPmcgQYX+pbduUdKnkG8IAU6vo; Message-ID: <410-220057623171752360 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Slingshot Effect & The Casimer Force. Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:17:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ad639d95d951a6f94f97b0ab02a0c8be350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.7 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html > > It actually tends to support your view on the Casimir more than > mine - in that it does provide the asymmetry which is still absent > from your earlier explanation, to wit: > Why do you insist on asymmetry? By analogy a bubble formed at the bottom of a glass of liquid is constrained symmetrically as would be the two H - H atoms in the H2 molecule and grows significantly larger symmetrically as it rises to the top. > > > "The Casimir Plate experiments prove the existence of the > > unidirectional force. > > Yes, but the plate experiment has a built-in asymmetry in that > the inside surfaces of the plates are "constrained" in the sense > of being forced to maintain a fixed distance apart while the outer > side is not. That is your *asymmetry* in the plate experiment. > There is none in a gas. > By that argument a plate on either side of a center plate wouldn't squeeze together due to the Casimir Force. ? How about a six-sided "Casimir Cube" ? > > > The "asymmetry" is in the 1/R^2 coulomb repulsion force acting > > against the hard ball > thermal collision-inertia compressive "squeeze" of the H2 atoms > (of the molecule) acting > in conjunction with the 1/R^4 Casimir force..... > > No, that isn't correct. When you get to the spatial dimension of > the molecule itself, then you are way past (lower than) the > operating geometry for the Casimir force, which is 2-10 NM. Below 2 > NM it disappears. > Where did you dig up that idea, Jones? Below 2 nanometers ( below about 20 times the 0.1 nanometer diameter of the H2 molecule) it disappears even though it's where the 1/R^4 Casimir Force can start to override the 1/R^2 repulsive Coulomb Force (which might be the explanation of "QM Tunneling" in Hot or Cold Fusion (the bubbles formed on the Pd surface for example) ?? > The thermal collision in a gas will be at an > order of magnitude closer distance than that. > Exactly. That is where Casmir-Assisted-thermal collision energy gets the free energy ie., the Casimir Force alone is not strong enough get more OU energy at that separation distance, but aids in increasing the total kinetic energy (heat) of the H2 gas. > > However, you have (inadvertently?) redeemed yourself with the > double ball "slingshot" effect .... > Snip my redemption for now. Do you give green stamps? :-) > Frederick > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 11:26:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NIPxcH012345; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:26:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NIPulW012321; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:25:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:25:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.32.225] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Slingshot Effect & The Casimer Force. Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:25:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050723182535.BQNI11059.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > I suspect that Georgia Tech and Emory alums would place it in the > "second tier " of higher academia in Atlanta. Yes, but we place it well above the University of Georgia. :-) It was formerly considered a commuter school; but, the 1996 Olympic Village was converted to GSU dorms to the delight of GaTech since those dorms have a large female population and is adjacent to the Tech campus: http://www.gsu.edu/colleges.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 15:18:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NMIP1B027242; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:18:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NMIMrF027212; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:18:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:18:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <19356896.1122157085802.JavaMail.root wamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:18:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: JED ROTHWELL CF Letter in Havard Paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another thing about letters: It is a good idea to include "bona fides" of some sort, so the editor can check to see if you are for real. Usually I include a list of papers. If I cite China Lake and Texas A&M, I add some titles from them. In this case I think I just included "LENR-CANR.org." They cut that part of the letter out, which is a shame, but anyway, the editor must have checked it, because he wrote "The writer is the author of "Cold Fusion and the Future," and I did not tell them that. The point is, you want to make it easy for the editor to confirm that there really are "hundreds of peer reviewed papers," or whatever you are claiming. The editor has dozens of letters to go through, and cannot spend any time checking them out. If a letter sounds fishy or kooky, it will be rejected immediately. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 15:34:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6NMXw7s031476; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:34:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6NMXueJ031459; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:33:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:33:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:34:54 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jed Rothwell CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1_fZND.A.arH.UXs4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually, the article was good and the statement about cold fusion was accurate. Cold fusion is not yet a source of energy of any value. Cold fusion is, however, a demonstrated phenomenon, which might have a value in the future, a possibility the article leaves open. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mitchell Swartz writes: > > >>How good could the article be with such inaccuracy about cold fusion? >> >>The Real Deal, The verdict so far: Cold fusion is achievable by hard effort. > > > I agree that this National Geographic comment is awful, and I think Ed agrees. But as they say in show business, any publicity is good publicity. Even an attack on cold fusion helps draw attention to it. It motivates people to look at on-line publications such as Swartz's and LENR-CANR. That is always a plus. > > I have noticed an upsurge in interest for the past few weeks, mainly from Germany and Italy, from the links I listed here. It is nothing dramatic, but on the other hand traffic is usually very low this time of year because colleges are not in session, except for summer school. Our traffic usually tracks the academic calendar. During final exam weeks, it drops to nothing! That is one of the reasons I think most of our readers are students and professors. In my opinion, we cannot ask for a better audience. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 17:16:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6O0G82q031641; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:16:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6O0G1t6031596; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:16:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:16:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <27480186.1122164146078.JavaMail.root wamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:15:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <0nDQE.A.otH.B3t4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms writes: > Actually, the article was good and the statement about cold fusion was > accurate. Oh. Good. Since I have not read it, I did not know the context. That sentence alone sounds bad. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 17:55:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6O0t7us013836; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:55:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6O0t52n013810; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:55:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:55:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:54:26 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic In-Reply-To: <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.86rc1/989/Fri Jul 22 17:27:30 2005 on pcls4.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: <19Ix0B.A.sXD.pbu4CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:34 PM 7/23/2005, Ed Storms wrote: >Actually, the article was good and the statement about cold fusion was >accurate. Cold fusion is not yet a source of energy of any value. Cold >fusion is, however, a demonstrated phenomenon, which might have a value in >the future, a possibility the article leaves open. > >Ed Flip flop. Actually, Ed Storms previously wrote just the opposite: Proof: "The National Geographic in the August issue has a good article on the energy problem. They even mention cold fusion - "A few scientists have claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar instead of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: No such luck." The article goes on to point out the most serious problems with hot fusion. Not bad, we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. However, something better work soon because the situation is getting serious. Ed" [Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:12 -0700 , Edmund Storms ] First, the statement, "A few scientists have claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar instead of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: No such luck." is simply not accurate. As one example, we have made cold fusion phusor systems capable of producing excess energy of hundreds of thousands of joules per day. Lower power systems demonstrated http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html Other positive reports at: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html So in summary, the verdict is: CF works. The conclusion: The article was not accurate do the degree that Ed Storms quoted it correctly. Second, the statement, "... we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. However, something better work soon because the situation is getting serious." is also inaccurate. Cold fusion works, and has for many years. Thus, Ed appears to herald that some, at the inaccurately named and censored LENR site, are apparently less aware of the success of others in the field. [Perhaps that uncertainty, lack of knowledge, is a reflection of their censorship (about which Gene Mallove complained before his murder).] So the verdict stage is over. CF works and MANY are working to develop and integrate it. Serious work indeed. Dr. Mitchell Swartz ========================================================== Update of Cold Fusion Times http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html also http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 19:09:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6O28bRI006810; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:08:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6O28Y8S006759; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:08:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:08:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c58ff4$8773e9c0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:07:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01C58FCA.865EC250"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.4 required=4.0 tests=BANG_MORE,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C58FCA.865EC250 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0035_01C58FCA.866048F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C58FCA.866048F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote.. >Wrong! It has Neutral Mass.=20 Mass is energy. And energy is motion^2 So energy can be positive or negative as exemplified by strain energy (epsilon^2) which can be tensile=20 strain energy or compressive strain energy. So mass can be positive or negative. Mass is not a measure of substance but a measure of motion relative to the environment as both Ing.Saviour and I have independently realised. (see his and my Yahoo sites for details). More! More! This is the type of physics dialog we need. Mass may not be = a measure of substance. However the measure of motion relative to the = environment can have a " memory' and form both good and bad habits = instantly ( Coanda would love it). I suggest this is a clue to the = struggle JLN has with his MAHG model. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C58FCA.866048F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Grimer wrote..

    >Wrong! It has Neutral Mass.
    Mass is energy.
    And energy is=20 motion^2

    So energy can be positive or negative as = exemplified
    by=20 strain energy (epsilon^2) which can be tensile
    strain energy or = compressive=20 strain energy.

    So mass can be positive or negative.

    Mass = is not a=20 measure of substance but a measure of
    motion relative to the = environment as=20 both Ing.Saviour
    and I have independently realised. (see his and = my
    Yahoo=20 sites for details).

     

    More! More! This is the type of physics dialog we need. Mass may not = be a=20 measure of substance. However the measure of motion  relative to = the=20 environment can  have a " memory' and form both good and bad habits = instantly ( Coanda would love it). I suggest this is a clue to the = struggle JLN=20 has with his MAHG model.

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C58FCA.866048F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C58FCA.865EC250 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003301c58ff4$6f258810$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C58FCA.865EC250-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 19:37:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6O2afJw016804; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:36:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6O2aeII016786; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:36:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:36:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050724023622.00959d8c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:36:22 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ================================================ MILLS BOMB Developed during World War I, the Mills bomb continued to serve as the standard British grenade during the Second World War. It was made of cast iron deeply serrated to fragment easily. Pulling the grenade's pin released a lever holding the striker, which in turn ignited the fuse. The Mills bomb was initially set with a seven-second delay which was reduced to four seconds after the fall of France in the spring of 1940, when it was found that seven seconds allowed the Germans enough time to pick up the grenade and throw it back. The Mills bomb could be thrown to about 30 yards' range. ================================================ I have a nasty feeling that I may be homing in on Dr.Mills and his blacks (light blacks) in the hydrino jungle. :-( . Unlike Stanley I do not look forward to the "Dr.Mills, I presume." moment, even if it is only a meeting of minds. Does anyone know if Mills has realised the compensating strain energy effect that shrinking the electron has on the proton? Cos if he does, I can't imagine why he hasn't added Cold Fusion to his grab bag of expertises. 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 20:49:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6O3n9Dl009304; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:49:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6O3n7Hq009292; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:49:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:49:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E30FEC.5020104 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:50:04 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48@pop.theworld.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48 pop.theworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think people in the CF field know and appreciate that two separate issues are important to the field. The first addresses whether the CF effect is real or not, and the second addresses whether commercially useful energy can be produced. It is clear that the effect is real, but it is not yet clear whether useful energy can be made. A few watts in a laboratory does not count when addressing the second issue, which is the thrust of the NG article. Most laboratory devices can not be scaled up in their present form. Until the effect can be produced near the kilowatt level on demand, the phenomenon can not be considered useful. Of course, this fact does not justify rejection of the claims as is common these days. I might add that the same criteria should be applied to hot fusion. In this case, the method is not useful unless excess power is in above megawatts because the size of the device is so large. Ed Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 06:34 PM 7/23/2005, Ed Storms wrote: > >> Actually, the article was good and the statement about cold fusion was >> accurate. Cold fusion is not yet a source of energy of any value. >> Cold fusion is, however, a demonstrated phenomenon, which might have a >> value in the future, a possibility the article leaves open. >> >> Ed > > > Flip flop. Actually, Ed Storms previously wrote just the opposite: > > Proof: > "The National Geographic in the August issue has a good article on the > energy problem. They even mention cold fusion - "A few scientists have > claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar > instead of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: No such > luck." The article goes on to point out the most serious problems with > hot fusion. Not bad, we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. However, > something better work soon because the situation is getting serious. > Ed" > [Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:12 -0700 , Edmund Storms ] > > First, the statement, "A few scientists have claimed that cold fusion, > which promises energy from a simple jar instead of a high-tech crucible, > might work. The verdict so far: No such luck." > is simply not accurate. As one example, we have made cold fusion phusor > systems capable of producing excess energy of hundreds of thousands of > joules per day. > Lower power systems demonstrated > http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html Other positive reports > at: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html > So in summary, the verdict is: CF works. The conclusion: The article > was not accurate do the degree that Ed Storms quoted it correctly. > > Second, the statement, "... we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. > However, something better work soon because the situation is getting > serious." is also inaccurate. > Cold fusion works, and has for many years. Thus, Ed appears to herald > that some, at the inaccurately named and censored LENR site, > are apparently less aware of the success of others in the field. > [Perhaps that uncertainty, lack of knowledge, is a reflection of their > censorship (about which Gene Mallove complained before his murder).] > So the verdict stage is over. CF works and MANY are working to develop > and integrate it. Serious work indeed. > > Dr. Mitchell Swartz > > ========================================================== > > Update of Cold Fusion Times > http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html > also http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 21:03:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6O42ckH014740; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:02:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6O42YLs014694; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:02:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:02:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vTAXHX5mIl0Qsxt5wX5x0Mwg7Jkva1t+EfkgqiUTONxyEP65PT9lwUGBQooxtxsQKY3LOX3gKuBjSLYggxhY8wiX3s88JTH7hXdHaDy2BdDai7qyXDb5kxnWAPkl3LyXuD2r3YrgTvB3gASSDPvFYgjlPtxIEYnsa7e46IrizME= ; Message-ID: <20050724040158.50776.qmail web33305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:01:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Grimer's makes unreasonable demands of Mizuno To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050721154841.0398cd20 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1242091486-1122177718=:46068" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1242091486-1122177718=:46068 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jed, from this post it sounds like Mizuno and I are in the same boat. I video taped an experiment where the Plasma/Hydrogen reaction Blew apart the chamber which "almost" took my head off. The same reaction occurs as seen on the video at my website each and every time I operate the device. Since I am not a professor like Mizuno, I have no credibility and been technically run out of town on the proverbial rail, even though my reports mirror many other researchers. Rather than continue to insist my results are reproducible, which must be impossible because nobody else can offer that - I am working on something much more solid, and when finished you may all decide for yourselves if what I have done is really true. You are correct Jed - it takes a lot of guts to do the work however the work must be done, and who is responsible to pay for it - the worker of course. BTW, it is not whining to say that professional scientists ignore unauthorized science - as Jed said it does happen within his post below. Regards, Chris Jed Rothwell wrote: Mizuno has plenty of guts, and he was pulling glass shards out of his neck now long ago, but it would have been insane to continue working with closed steel cells after Andrew Riley's death. >Mizuno should have repeated the experiment and >taken it to completion with a full video record. He and I agree. >It's not as though the experiment was >irreproducible, is it? Yes, highly irreproducible. Also, extremely dangerous and expensive. I doubt he would have seen similar results with bulk Pd even if he had repeated it dozens of times. > He goes on to admit that >with a further 20 specimens he got 15% "clear >cases of excess heat." I'm sure an Edison would >have been delighted with such a high incidence >of reproducibility. Mizuno's failure to finish >what he started may not amount to desertion in >the face of the enemy but it certainly raises >questions about dilettantism. This is unreasonable. It took him 5 or 10 *years* to do those additional experiments. The materials and instruments cost him personally, out of pocket, over $100,000. Needless to say, practically no journal will publish these results, and he is persona non grata at the university. If he did not have tenure they would have ridden him out on a rail. He has not been promoted by or offered any assistance since 1989. He and the other researchers have suffered endless harassment, ridicule and abuse from the public, the press, and the university. He is a middle class professor with a full time teaching load. He is obligated to do regular electrochemistry research as well, and help grad students. How much more sacrifice do you demand of him? What more could he do? Should he be living in a refrigerator box on the street, having spent every his last yen on these experiments? No matter what happens, he will never see a single yen in royalties. All intellectual property goes to the Japanese government. More to the point, where will you find other people willing to do what he has done? If you insist that scientists must live like monks, and suffer outrageous abuse just because they want to do their jobs, no one will be willing to do research. He is, of course, still working on other, more promising and safer techniques. I do not think you have the right to demand that he sacrifice the rest of his life savings, and continue to do an experiment that blew another man's head off. Also, I do not see you or other members of Peanut Gallery anteing up for 100 grams of Pd, a quadrupole mass spec, or any of the other colorful toys one must have to do this research. - Jed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1242091486-1122177718=:46068 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Jed, from this post it sounds like Mizuno and I are in the same boat. I video taped an experiment where the Plasma/Hydrogen reaction Blew apart the chamber which "almost" took my head off. The same reaction occurs as seen on the video at my website each and every time I operate the device. Since I am not a professor like Mizuno, I have no credibility and been technically run out of town on the proverbial rail, even though my reports mirror many other researchers.
     
    Rather than continue to insist my results are reproducible, which must be impossible because nobody else can offer that - I am working on something much more solid, and when finished you may all decide for yourselves if what I have done is really true.
     
    You are correct Jed - it takes a lot of guts to do the work however the work must be done, and who is responsible to pay for it - the worker of course.
     
    BTW, it is not whining to say that professional scientists ignore unauthorized science - as Jed said it does happen within his post below.
     
    Regards,
    Chris

    Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
    Mizuno has plenty of guts, and he was pulling glass shards out of his neck
    now long ago, but it would have been insane to continue working with closed
    steel cells after Andrew Riley's death.


    >Mizuno should have repeated the experiment and
    >taken it to completion with a full video record.

    He and I agree.


    >It's not as though the experiment was
    >irreproducible, is it?

    Yes, highly irreproducible. Also, extremely dangerous and expensive. I
    doubt he would have seen similar results with bulk Pd even if he had
    repeated it dozens of times.


    > He goes on to admit that
    >with a further 20 specimens he got 15% "clear
    >cases of excess heat." I'm sure an Edison would
    >have been delighted with such a high incidence
    >of reproducibility. Mizuno's failure to finish
    >what he started may not amount to desertion in
    >the face of the enemy but it certainly raises
    >questions about dilettantism.

    This is unreasonable. It took him 5 or 10 *years* to do those additional
    experiments. The materials and instruments cost him personally, out of
    pocket, over $100,000. Needless to say, practically no journal will publish
    these results, and he is persona non grata at the university. If he did not
    have tenure they would have ridden him out on a rail. He has not been
    promoted by or offered any assistance since 1989. He and the other
    researchers have suffered endless harassment, ridicule and abuse from the
    public, the press, and the university. He is a middle class professor with
    a full time teaching load. He is obligated to do regular electrochemistry
    research as well, and help grad students. How much more sacrifice do you
    demand of him? What more could he do? Should he be living in a refrigerator
    box on the street, having spent every his last yen on these experiments? No
    matter what happens, he will never see a single yen in royalties. All
    intellectual property goes to the Japanese government.

    More to the point, where will you find other people willing to do what he
    has done? If you insist that scientists must live like monks, and suffer
    outrageous abuse just because they want to do their jobs, no one will be
    willing to do research.

    He is, of course, still working on other, more promising and safer
    techniques. I do not think you have the right to demand that he sacrifice
    the rest of his life savings, and continue to do an experiment that blew
    another man's head off. Also, I do not see you or other members of Peanut
    Gallery anteing up for 100 grams of Pd, a quadrupole mass spec, or any of
    the other colorful toys one must have to do this research.

    - Jed


    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1242091486-1122177718=:46068-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 23 21:27:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6O4RAr8023063; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:27:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6O4R8V3023041; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:27:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:27:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=D+TatScVP+ZqFCO7we6knjBu/rDeNlmYPM6jScIWXSSUTCdLp6OCIPMSjOxPIlntGy79mrlgezNmm7ebQ5s4imH7wNLYgYs5ig7C2ulFcIPP97Jl8ryY5qtLYcPn4CaUz8Z7S5bSa7xObKGoyESgECY+hDg7Bn237vt5/PjwYFY= ; Message-ID: <20050724042647.81048.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:26:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <42E30FEC.5020104 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1221415150-1122179206=:80005" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1221415150-1122179206=:80005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ed, Some people love to distort the true intent of a post by quoting out of context or nitpicking to cause an argument. Both tact's are counterproductive but to be expected in any endeavor designed to increase our understanding of Fusion science or even general science, as some are against progress while most are indifferent to ideas beyond their grasp. Real progress in fusion will begin when the lead scientists admit that magnetic confinement is an excessive waste of power - and get rid of it. That will force them to look at Farnsworth type fusion at the expense of the Tokamak cash cow, and reason will give way to common sense and Tokamak will continue to be touted as the "correct" fusion method. Bottom line - we must succeed in spite of the current fusion experts, people like Pons, Fleischmann, Mizuno, Dr. Storms, Richard Hull, Jed Rothwell and the rest of "US" - or fusion for power will continue to be out of reach. Chris Edmund Storms wrote: I think people in the CF field know and appreciate that two separate issues are important to the field. The first addresses whether the CF effect is real or not, and the second addresses whether commercially useful energy can be produced. It is clear that the effect is real, but it is not yet clear whether useful energy can be made. A few watts in a laboratory does not count when addressing the second issue, which is the thrust of the NG article. Most laboratory devices can not be scaled up in their present form. Until the effect can be produced near the kilowatt level on demand, the phenomenon can not be considered useful. Of course, this fact does not justify rejection of the claims as is common these days. I might add that the same criteria should be applied to hot fusion. In this case, the method is not useful unless excess power is in above megawatts because the size of the device is so large. Ed Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 06:34 PM 7/23/2005, Ed Storms wrote: > >> Actually, the article was good and the statement about cold fusion was >> accurate. Cold fusion is not yet a source of energy of any value. >> Cold fusion is, however, a demonstrated phenomenon, which might have a >> value in the future, a possibility the article leaves open. >> >> Ed > > > Flip flop. Actually, Ed Storms previously wrote just the opposite: > > Proof: > "The National Geographic in the August issue has a good article on the > energy problem. They even mention cold fusion - "A few scientists have > claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar > instead of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: No such > luck." The article goes on to point out the most serious problems with > hot fusion. Not bad, we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. However, > something better work soon because the situation is getting serious. > Ed" > [Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:12 -0700 , Edmund Storms ] > > First, the statement, "A few scientists have claimed that cold fusion, > which promises energy from a simple jar instead of a high-tech crucible, > might work. The verdict so far: No such luck." > is simply not accurate. As one example, we have made cold fusion phusor > systems capable of producing excess energy of hundreds of thousands of > joules per day. > Lower power systems demonstrated > http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html Other positive reports > at: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html > So in summary, the verdict is: CF works. The conclusion: The article > was not accurate do the degree that Ed Storms quoted it correctly. > > Second, the statement, "... we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. > However, something better work soon because the situation is getting > serious." is also inaccurate. > Cold fusion works, and has for many years. Thus, Ed appears to herald > that some, at the inaccurately named and censored LENR site, > are apparently less aware of the success of others in the field. > [Perhaps that uncertainty, lack of knowledge, is a reflection of their > censorship (about which Gene Mallove complained before his murder).] > So the verdict stage is over. CF works and MANY are working to develop > and integrate it. Serious work indeed. > > Dr. Mitchell Swartz > > ========================================================== > > Update of Cold Fusion Times > http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html > also http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1221415150-1122179206=:80005 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Ed,
     
    Some people love to distort the true intent of a post by quoting out of context or nitpicking to cause an argument. Both tact's are counterproductive but to be expected in any endeavor designed to increase our understanding of  Fusion science or even general science, as some are against progress while most are indifferent to ideas beyond their grasp.
     
    Real progress in fusion will begin when the lead scientists admit that magnetic confinement is an excessive waste of power - and get rid of it. That will force them to look at Farnsworth type fusion at the expense of the Tokamak cash cow, and reason will give way to common sense and Tokamak will continue to be touted as the "correct" fusion method.
     
    Bottom line - we must succeed in spite of the current fusion experts, people like Pons, Fleischmann, Mizuno, Dr. Storms, Richard Hull, Jed Rothwell and the rest of "US" - or fusion for power will continue to be out of reach.
     
    Chris

    Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
    I think people in the CF field know and appreciate that two separate
    issues are important to the field. The first addresses whether the CF
    effect is real or not, and the second addresses whether commercially
    useful energy can be produced. It is clear that the effect is real, but
    it is not yet clear whether useful energy can be made. A few watts in a
    laboratory does not count when addressing the second issue, which is the
    thrust of the NG article. Most laboratory devices can not be scaled up
    in their present form. Until the effect can be produced near the
    kilowatt level on demand, the phenomenon can not be considered useful.
    Of course, this fact does not justify rejection of the claims as is
    common these days. I might add that the same criteria should be applied
    to hot fusion. In this case, the method is not useful unless excess
    power is in above megawatts because the size of the device is so large.

    Ed

    Mitchell Swartz wrote:

    > At 06:34 PM 7/23/2005, Ed Storms wrote:
    >
    >> Actually, the article was good and the statement about cold fusion was
    >> accurate. Cold fusion is not yet a source of energy of any value.
    >> Cold fusion is, however, a demonstrated phenomenon, which might have a
    >> value in the future, a possibility the article leaves open.
    >>
    >> Ed
    >
    >
    > Flip flop. Actually, Ed Storms previously wrote just the opposite:
    >
    > Proof:
    > "The National Geographic in the August issue has a good article on the
    > energy problem. They even mention cold fusion - "A few scientists have
    > claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar
    > instead of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: No such
    > luck." The article goes on to point out the most serious problems with
    > hot fusion. Not bad, we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. However,
    > something better work soon because the situation is getting serious.
    > Ed"
    > [Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:12 -0700 , Edmund Storms ]
    >
    > First, the statement, "A few scientists have claimed that cold fusion,
    > which promises energy from a simple jar instead of a high-tech crucible,
    > might work. The verdict so far: No such luck."
    > is simply not accurate. As one example, we have made cold fusion phusor
    > systems capable of producing excess energy of hundreds of thousands of
    > joules per day.
    > Lower power systems demonstrated
    > http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html Other positive reports
    > at: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
    > So in summary, the verdict is: CF works. The conclusion: The article
    > was not accurate do the degree that Ed Storms quoted it correctly.
    >
    > Second, the statement, "... we are now at the "verdict so far" stage.
    > However, something better work soon because the situation is getting
    > serious." is also inaccurate.
    > Cold fusion works, and has for many years. Thus, Ed appears to herald
    > that some, at the inaccurately named and censored LENR site,
    > are apparently less aware of the success of others in the field.
    > [Perhaps that uncertainty, lack of knowledge, is a reflection of their
    > censorship (about which Gene Mallove complained before his murder).]
    > So the verdict stage is over. CF works and MANY are working to develop
    > and integrate it. Serious work indeed.
    >
    > Dr. Mitchell Swartz
    >
    > ==========================================================
    >
    > Update of Cold Fusion Times
    > http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
    > also http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1221415150-1122179206=:80005-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 05:19:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6OCJOQu028495; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:19:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6OCJMLn028467; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:19:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:19:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:07:41 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic In-Reply-To: <42E30FEC.5020104 ix.netcom.com> References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48 pop.theworld.com> <42E30FEC.5020104 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.86rc1/989/Fri Jul 22 17:27:30 2005 on pcls3.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:50 PM 7/23/2005, Ed Storms wrote: >I think people in the CF field know and appreciate that two separate >issues are important to the field. The first addresses whether the CF >effect is real or not, and the second addresses whether commercially >useful energy can be produced. It is clear that the effect is real, but >it is not yet clear whether useful energy can be made. A few watts in a >laboratory does not count when addressing the second issue, which is the >thrust of the NG article. Most laboratory devices can not be scaled up in >their present form. Until the effect can be produced near the kilowatt >level on demand, the phenomenon can not be considered useful. Of course, >this fact does not justify rejection of the claims as is common these >days. I might add that the same criteria should be applied to hot >fusion. In this case, the method is not useful unless excess power is in >above megawatts because the size of the device is so large. > >Ed With all due respect, Ed Storms is wrong two ways. First, utility is dependent upon location and availability. Although Storms' very low level less-reproducible devices are not useful as he states, others' cold fusion devices are higher power and higher reproducibility, and do appear to be useful. Utility is in the 'eyes of the beholder' As example, the Rover on Mars has a power dissipation of circa 50 watts. Therefore, 50 or 100 watts excess energy converted to electricity using cold fusion might increase project longevity or in situ system availability by a factor of 50-100%. That is GREAT utility, and is only one example. Also, corroborating this, we have made electricity for years using cold fusion systems [since before our first report in Fusion Facts (Hal Fox, editor) a decade ago when a small light bulb first turned on by CF, and have shown clear excess energy demonstrated both by temperature rise AND by electricity generation in subsequent systems. This electrical generation is important because it has utility at least two ways. These cold fusion electric conversion systems have GREAT utility both for convincing skeptics (beyond the simple temperature rise of the MIT Demo shown at ICCF 10) AND for new useful products (e.g. as discussed above, briefly). Second, our realization that cold fusion is real and reproducible has directly paralleled the generation of useful excess electrical energy, especially in the prism of increasing in excess power density. Therefore, the "two separate issues" appear to not be separate but rather appear to be linked [perhaps in a way as are electrical conduction and electrical polarization through Hilbert space]. Mitchell Swartz ============================================================== >> Update of Cold Fusion Times >> http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html >>also http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 07:55:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6OEt1Se022671; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:55:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6OEsxut022661; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:54:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:54:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=hDRYY440y6yFuFfoKC71CGpNEWPW6fTEKDgTxLIKaV0BJ0yhNcxNjU8YdjU2ZASI; Message-ID: <410-220057024135440110 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: United States Patent Class 420/900 HYDROGEN STORAGE Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:54:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fd0788b64a438c93ba3cece3960488b1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.203 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A lot of interesting hydrogen-related patent abstracts: http://www.patentstorm.us/class/420/900-HYDROGEN_STORAGE.html 420 Alloys or metallic compositions 900 HYDROGEN STORAGE 6740450 Hydrogen-absorbing alloy for battery, method for producing the same, and... "An alkaline storage battery which is excellent in charge and discharge cycle life characteristics and high-rate discharge characteristics is provided by constructing it using an electrode made of an MmNi type hydrogen-absorbing alloy powders having modified surface. The alkaline storage battery..." High Pressure Hydrogen Gas Compressors: http://www.hydropac.com/HTML/hydrogen-compressor.html Fairview, Pennsylvania (west of Erie) is like hometown. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    A lot of interesting hydrogen-related patent abstracts:
     

    420 Alloys or metallic compositions

    900 HYDROGEN STORAGE
     
    6740450 Hydrogen-absorbing alloy for battery, method for producing the same, and...

    "An alkaline storage battery which is excellent in charge and discharge cycle life characteristics and high-rate discharge characteristics is provided by constructing it using an electrode made of an MmNi type hydrogen-absorbing alloy powders having modified surface. The alkaline storage battery..."

    High Pressure Hydrogen Gas Compressors:

    http://www.hydropac.com/HTML/hydrogen-compressor.html

    Fairview, Pennsylvania (west of Erie) is like hometown.   :-)

    Frederick

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 09:13:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6OGD0tK000567; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:13:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6OGCwiG000524; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:12:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:12:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E3BE45.1080100 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:13:57 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48@pop.theworld.com> <42E30FEC.5020104@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318@pop.theworld.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318 pop.theworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_ppUeD.A.DI.J474CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > At 11:50 PM 7/23/2005, Ed Storms wrote: > >> I think people in the CF field know and appreciate that two separate >> issues are important to the field. The first addresses whether the CF >> effect is real or not, and the second addresses whether commercially >> useful energy can be produced. It is clear that the effect is real, >> but it is not yet clear whether useful energy can be made. A few >> watts in a laboratory does not count when addressing the second issue, >> which is the thrust of the NG article. Most laboratory devices can not >> be scaled up in their present form. Until the effect can be produced >> near the kilowatt level on demand, the phenomenon can not be >> considered useful. Of course, this fact does not justify rejection of >> the claims as is common these days. I might add that the same criteria >> should be applied to hot fusion. In this case, the method is not >> useful unless excess power is in above megawatts because the size of >> the device is so large. >> >> Ed > > > > With all due respect, Ed Storms is wrong two ways. I think we first need to avoid looking at this discussion as a conflict between right and wrong, but a discussion from two different points of view. > > First, utility is dependent upon location and availability. Although > Storms' very low level less-reproducible devices are not useful > as he states, others' cold fusion devices are higher power and higher > reproducibility, and do appear to be useful. The issue is what we consider to be useful. A laboratory instrument is useful when it produces reproducible results based on an understandable process. The level of power only has to exceed the sensitivity of the detection devices by a suitable amount. Many cold fusion devices do this including the calorimeter used by Mitchell Swartz. A device useful in solving the energy needs of the world, which was the basis of the discussion in NG, is an entirely different animal. Granted, once CF is understood, small devices producing 50-100 watts will be very common. However, as far as I can determine, no one understands the effect well enough to create such a device or to amplify the effect in a practical way to levels that would be useful outside of a laboratory. I suggest the debate needs to focus on the real world and not on what we want to see happen some time in the unknown future. The debate is now shifting from the reality of the effect to its "usefulness". If we in the field want to be part of that debate, we need to acknowledge the important issues in this debate, not the issues in the last one. The important question in the present debate is how can the effect be amplified using a device that is simple, cheap, and long lasting. I suggest the electrolytic method, although useful for study, does not qualify. Even the plasma methods would not scale easily. The only method that looks practical is direct gas loading of the nuclear active environment (NAE). The limitation to scaling to high power using any technique is not knowing the characteristics of the NAE. Therefore, this is where I suggest the discussion needs to focus. Ed > Utility is in the 'eyes of the beholder' As example, the Rover on Mars > has a power dissipation of circa 50 watts. > Therefore, 50 or 100 watts excess energy converted to electricity using > cold fusion might increase project longevity > or in situ system availability by a factor of 50-100%. That is GREAT > utility, and is only one example. > > Also, corroborating this, we have made electricity for years using > cold fusion systems [since before our > first report in Fusion Facts (Hal Fox, editor) a decade ago when a small > light bulb first turned on by CF, > and have shown clear excess energy demonstrated both by temperature rise > AND by electricity generation > in subsequent systems. This electrical generation is important because > it has utility at least two ways. > These cold fusion electric conversion systems have GREAT utility both > for convincing skeptics (beyond the simple temperature > rise of the MIT Demo shown at ICCF 10) AND for new useful products (e.g. > as discussed above, briefly). > > > Second, our realization that cold fusion is real and reproducible has > directly paralleled the generation of > useful excess electrical energy, especially in the prism of increasing > in excess power density. > Therefore, the "two separate issues" appear to not be separate but > rather appear to be linked > [perhaps in a way as are electrical conduction and electrical > polarization through Hilbert space]. > > > Mitchell Swartz > > > > ============================================================== > > >>> Update of Cold Fusion Times >>> http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html >>> also http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 09:53:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6OGr62X019282; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:53:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6OGr4BR019268; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:53:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:53:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050724122556.021628e0 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:48:22 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic In-Reply-To: <42E3BE45.1080100 ix.netcom.com> References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48 pop.theworld.com> <42E30FEC.5020104 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318 pop.theworld.com> <42E3BE45.1080100 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.86rc1/989/Fri Jul 22 17:27:30 2005 on pcls3.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:13 PM 7/24/2005, Ed Storms wrote: >The issue is what we consider to be useful. A laboratory instrument is >useful when it produces reproducible results based on an understandable >process. The level of power only has to exceed the sensitivity of the >detection devices by a suitable amount. Many cold fusion devices do this >including the calorimeter used by Mitchell Swartz. Some many errors in a few sentences requires some clarification. First, our multiring calorimeters are not the cold fusion devices -- which are Phusors. Everyone at the misnamed LENR site seems to get that wrong. The multiring calorimeters, with time integration in each of the rings, require multiple forms of calibration including ohmic (thermal controls). They have shown that thermoelectric and vertical mass flow calorimeters are at risk to be seriously non-quantitative - even though some such as Ed prefer them and worse, some sometimes run them without multiple controls and in the illusion that it does not matter where heat source is positioned. re: multiring calorimetry: Swartz. M., "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, 31, 63-74 (1997) ====================================================================================== > A device useful in solving the energy needs of the world, which was the > basis of the discussion in NG, is an entirely different animal. Granted, > once CF is understood, small devices producing 50-100 watts will be very > common. However, as far as I can determine, no one understands the effect > well enough to create such a device or to amplify the effect in a > practical way to levels that would be useful outside of a laboratory. I > suggest the debate needs to focus on the real world and not on what we > want to see happen some time in the unknown future. I suggest those who want to seriously pursue cold fusion examine the facts. The papers published, including the quasi-1-dimensional model of loading which predicts codeposition and optimal operating points (and other things) indicates that we DO understand the effect and its preconditions very well. Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992) Swartz, M., "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled to Reactions at an Electrode", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (December 1994) Futhermore, each and every issue of the COLD FUSION TIMES which is put out (24 pages this issue), and every Conference proceeding (albeit with some 'cherry picking') demonstrates that we DO understand the effect, and many of us do build devices which some of us have shown outside of the laboratory such as during the week of ICCF-10. It is understood that some prefer to ignore engineering and solid state physics on this, and good luck them. ==================================================================================== >The debate is now shifting from the reality of the effect to its >"usefulness". If we in the field want to be part of that debate, we need >to acknowledge the important issues in this debate, not the issues in the >last one. The important question in the present debate is how can the >effect be amplified using a device that is simple, cheap, and long >lasting. I suggest the electrolytic method, although useful for study, >does not qualify. Even the plasma methods would not scale easily. The >only method that looks practical is direct gas loading of the nuclear >active environment (NAE). The limitation to scaling to high power using >any technique is not knowing the characteristics of the NAE. Therefore, >this is where I suggest the discussion needs to focus. > >Ed Sorry your low-level devices are not long lasting, Ed. FWIW, mathematics and engineering are the key, and they indicate that the desired reactions are NEITHER low energy nuclear reactions nor chemically assisted reactions. They are lattice assisted high energy nuclear reactions, where the lattice and low temperature bring the Bremsstrahlung down to the IR and locks it in due to skin depth. The lattice facilitates through quanta called Phusons which couple the energy of the excited nuclear state to the lattice through very large number sof phonons. Swartz, M, G. Verner, "Bremsstrahlung in Hot and Cold Fusion", J New Energy, 3, 4, 90-101 (1999) Swartz, M., "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997). Hope that clarifies. Dr. Mitchell Swartz >> ============================================================== >> >>>> Update of Cold Fusion Times >>>> http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html >>>>also http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 10:22:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6OHMR6h001242; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:22:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6OHMPLf001219; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:22:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:22:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=cgQXjy4yOsEsL9cMH/G/lNrqOxdscmXoM4Nl98XQc1fustL7ZLcPcbPdOnVazwPTTNTpy9uiNhcgqzSEeOHXMpMMAShVD85lmT+yGaoVllJV0GSs2pvJjurEM+UqIBN6GHg0OgGA0QPg/wTCT6jcu2S4lFvIKKVuTtKQnSWQ4h4= ; Message-ID: <20050724172202.14380.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:22:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: United States Patent Class 420/900 HYDROGEN STORAGE To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <410-220057024135440110 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-520109202-1122225722=:13075" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-520109202-1122225722=:13075 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://prelas.nuclear.missouri.edu/Publications/HydrogenStorageinDiamond.pdf Chris Frederick Sparber wrote: A lot of interesting hydrogen-related patent abstracts: http://www.patentstorm.us/class/420/900-HYDROGEN_STORAGE.html 420 Alloys or metallic compositions 900 HYDROGEN STORAGE 6740450 Hydrogen-absorbing alloy for battery, method for producing the same, and... "An alkaline storage battery which is excellent in charge and discharge cycle life characteristics and high-rate discharge characteristics is provided by constructing it using an electrode made of an MmNi type hydrogen-absorbing alloy powders having modified surface. The alkaline storage battery..." High Pressure Hydrogen Gas Compressors: http://www.hydropac.com/HTML/hydrogen-compressor.html Fairview, Pennsylvania (west of Erie) is like hometown. :-) Frederick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-520109202-1122225722=:13075 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
     
    Chris

    Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

    A lot of interesting hydrogen-related patent abstracts:
     

    420 Alloys or metallic compositions

    900 HYDROGEN STORAGE
     
    6740450 Hydrogen-absorbing alloy for battery, method for producing the same, and...

    "An alkaline storage battery which is excellent in charge and discharge cycle life characteristics and high-rate discharge characteristics is provided by constructing it using an electrode made of an MmNi type hydrogen-absorbing alloy powders having modified surface. The alkaline storage battery..."

    High Pressure Hydrogen Gas Compressors:

    http://www.hydropac.com/HTML/hydrogen-compressor.html

    Fairview, Pennsylvania (west of Erie) is like hometown.   :-)

    Frederick

    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail.yahoo.com --0-520109202-1122225722=:13075-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 11:28:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6OIS6SQ028602; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:28:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6OIS4oq028564; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:28:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:28:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E3DDEE.9020906 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:29:02 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic References: <20050724042647.81048.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050724042647.81048.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8NXJPB.A.Q-G.z294CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Christopher Arnold wrote: > Ed, > > Some people love to distort the true intent of a post by quoting out of > context or nitpicking to cause an argument. Both tact's are > counterproductive but to be expected in any endeavor designed to > increase our understanding of Fusion science or even general science, > as some are against progress while most are indifferent to ideas beyond > their grasp. Very true, Chris. However, the distortion is usually based more on the personality of the responder than on the subject. Some people can not stand the idea that someone else has a thought that is contrary to their own. > > Real progress in fusion will begin when the lead scientists admit that > magnetic confinement is an excessive waste of power - and get rid of it. > That will force them to look at Farnsworth type fusion at the expense of > the Tokamak cash cow, and reason will give way to common sense and > Tokamak will continue to be touted as the "correct" fusion method. I would not count on rejection of hot fusion happening anytime soon. Too much money, too many people, and too many companies are involved. For CF to get the required attention, someone needs to produce a demonstration like the one shown in the movie, "The Saint". Meanwhile, private money will continue to explore the subject until such a demonstration is possible. Regards. Ed > Bottom line - we must succeed in spite of the current fusion experts, > people like Pons, Fleischmann, Mizuno, Dr. Storms, Richard Hull, Jed > Rothwell and the rest of "US" - or fusion for power will continue to be > out of reach. > > Chris > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > I think people in the CF field know and appreciate that two separate > issues are important to the field. The first addresses whether the CF > effect is real or not, and the second addresses whether commercially > useful energy can be produced. It is clear that the effect is real, but > it is not yet clear whether useful energy can be made. A few watts in a > laboratory does not count when addressing the second issue, which is > the > thrust of the NG article. Most laboratory devices can not be scaled up > in their present form. Until the effect can be produced near the > kilowatt level on demand, the phenomenon can not be considered useful. > Of course, this fact does not justify rejection of the claims as is > common these days. I might add that the same criteria should be applied > to hot fusion. In this case, the method is not useful unless excess > ! power is in above megawatts because the size of the device is so > large. > > Ed > > Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > At 06:34 PM 7/23/2005, Ed Storms wrote: > > > >> Actually, the article was good and the statement about cold > fusion was > >> accurate. Cold fusion is not yet a source of energy of any value. > >> Cold fusion is, however, a demonstrated phenomenon, which might > have a > >> value in the future, a possibility the article leaves open. > >> > >> Ed > > > > > > Flip flop. Actually, Ed Storms previously wrote just the opposite: > > > > Proof: > > "The National Geographic in the August issue has a good article > on the > > energy problem. They even mention cold fusion - "A few scientists > have > > claimed that cold fusion, which promises energy from a simple jar > > instead of a high-tech crucible, might work. The verdict so far: > No such > > luck." The article goes on to point ! out the most serious > problems with > > hot fusion. Not bad, we are now at the "verdict so far" stage. > However, > > something better work soon because the situation is getting serious. > > Ed" > > [Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:12 -0700 , Edmund Storms ] > > > > First, the statement, "A few scientists have claimed that cold > fusion, > > which promises energy from a simple jar instead of a high-tech > crucible, > > might work. The verdict so far: No such luck." > > is simply not accurate. As one example, we have made cold fusion > phusor > > systems capable of producing excess energy of hundreds of > thousands of > > joules per day. > > Lower power systems demonstrated > > http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html Other positive reports > > at: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html > > So in summary, the verdict is: CF works. The conclusion: The article > > was not accurate do the degree that Ed Stor! ms quoted it correctly. > > > > Second, the statement, "... we are now at the "verdict so far" > stage. > > However, something better work soon because the situation is getting > > serious." is also inaccurate. > > Cold fusion works, and has for many years. Thus, Ed appears to > herald > > that some, at the inaccurately named and censored LENR site, > > are apparently less aware of the success of others in the field. > > [Perhaps that uncertainty, lack of knowledge, is a reflection of > their > > censorship (about which Gene Mallove complained before his murder).] > > So the verdict stage is over. CF works and MANY are working to > develop > > and integrate it. Serious work indeed. > > > > Dr. Mitchell Swartz > > > > ========================================================== > > > > Update of Cold Fusion Times > > http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html > > also http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html > >! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 18:44:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6P1hrQf009432; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:44:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6P1ho4d009409; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:43:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:43:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050725014329.0095e274 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:43:29 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In Putterman's Scientific American paper http://www.physics.ucla.edu/Sonoluminescence/sono.pdf which has already been referred to in a previous post in this thread, there is a diagram of the sonoluminescence spectrum. Under the diagram is the following caption ============================================= SPECTRUM of sonoluminescence shows that most of the emitted light is ultraviolet. As pointed out by Paul H Roberts and Cheng- Chin Wu of the University of California at Los Angeles, the signal compares closely with the bremsstrahlung radiation - that is, light emitted by a plasma of 100,000 kelvins. ============================================= Now what on earth is the connection between a collimated bremsstrahlung radiation (BR) beam in a synchrotron and sonoluminescence (SL). Hydrodynamics gives the answer. In both cases we have a B-a pressure drop. In the synchrotron case is it a Bernoulli pressure drop in the electron stream. In the SL case it is a pressure drop inside the high pF cavitation hole within the water. Interestingly enough, seeing BR as a hydrodynamic phenomena neatly explains something which I've never understood before, i.e. why BR produces a searchlight type beam in the synchrotron. The transition from streamline flow in a pipe (parabolic velocity distribution) to turbulent flow (uniform velocity distribution) can be seen as a transition from isotropic micro vortices with their axes perpendicular to the direction of flow to vortices with their axes parallel to the flow direction. Now if BR electron orbits are oriented in the same manner as turbulent flow vortices then a collimated beam can be expected. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 19:08:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6P28CWV018318; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:08:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6P289eu018295; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:08:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:08:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001e01c590bd$a5e9d170$7a037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:07:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C59093.BC840C90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C59093.BC840C90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C59093.BC859330" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C59093.BC859330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankReading the posts on this subject by the various personalities in = the group only reinforces my belief that this body of thinkers have some = special comaradre that borders on the unique.=20 The strength of the group is not in its total agreement but it's simple = ability to function and cohere regardless of " potshots" and " zingers". = Even the belief systems of the members add to the marketplace of ideas = expressed. Jealously guard this experience because it can be " fleeting" like the = imaginary Camelot. My personal opinion is that the socalled secret of CF = has been described in here at least three ways over the past few years = without being fully recognized in its essential. Hammer away !! we are getting closer each day.. with what?? With just = a few people with ideas and a forum of openness and self discipline .. = pitted against the mighty and powerful with funding and facilities. = Gosh , I love it !!.. If there is one thing the internet teaches ( by exposure..like nudity in = all its forms.. tongue in cheek and grinning.). is that, it not only = represents a unique form of communication but that there is a deeper = concept that exhibits the miracle of " grouping" of individuals = worldwide into instant forums of common interests. Science never had it = so good and there can be no more secrets and playing "keepaway" like = children. The formation of the enhanced dialog developing in this group = is uplifting. Jed's letter has been published and he has given us a guide for wording = a continuious stream of letters sustaining the CF theme and keeping it = before the world. I commend you Jed!!. Strive to weave into letters = a sense of confidence in the authenticy of the research results in CF to = date. Exhibit integrity in letters. Sincerity and longevity in the = quest, the momentum, and the objective. People can read between the = lines, The prize will announce itself later, the benefits will be = quickly forgotten by the consuming public, but the legacy will remain. = The legacy of some darn good times together. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C59093.BC859330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

    Reading the posts on this subject by the various personalities in = the group=20 only reinforces my belief that this body of thinkers have some special = comaradre=20 that borders on the unique.
    The strength of the group is not in its total agreement but it's = simple=20 ability to function and cohere regardless of " potshots" and " zingers". = Even=20 the belief systems of the members add to the marketplace of ideas=20 expressed.
     
    Jealously guard this experience because it can be " fleeting" like = the=20 imaginary Camelot. My personal opinion is that the socalled secret of CF = has=20 been described in here at least three ways over the past few years = without being=20 fully recognized in its essential.
     
    Hammer away !!   we are getting closer each day.. with = what??=20 With just a few people with ideas and a forum of openness and self = discipline=20 .. pitted against the mighty and powerful  with funding = and=20 facilities. Gosh , I love it !!..
     
    If there is one thing the internet teaches ( by exposure..like = nudity in=20 all its forms.. tongue in cheek and grinning.). is that, it not = only=20 represents a unique form of communication  but that there is a = deeper=20 concept that exhibits the miracle of " grouping" of individuals = worldwide=20 into instant forums of common interests. Science never had it so good = and there=20 can be no more secrets and playing "keepaway" like children. The = formation of=20 the enhanced dialog  developing in this group is uplifting.
     
    Jed's letter has been published and he has given us a guide for = wording a=20 continuious stream of letters sustaining the CF theme and keeping it = before the=20 world.  I commend you Jed!!.   Strive  to weave = into  letters a sense of confidence in the authenticy of the = research=20 results in CF to date. Exhibit integrity in letters. Sincerity and=20 longevity in the quest, the momentum, and the objective. People can = read=20 between the lines, The prize will announce itself later, the benefits = will be=20 quickly forgotten by the consuming public, but the legacy will = remain. The=20 legacy of some darn good times together.
     
    Richard

     

    ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C59093.BC859330-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C59093.BC840C90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c590bd$a51e9230$7a037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C59093.BC840C90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 19:54:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6P2rZrs008308; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:53:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6P2rYJF008298; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:53:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:53:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E45410.5040403 pobox.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:53:04 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48@pop.theworld.com> <42E30FEC.5020104@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318@pop.theworld.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318 pop.theworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Also, corroborating this, we have made electricity for years using > cold fusion systems [since before our > first report in Fusion Facts (Hal Fox, editor) a decade ago when a > small light bulb first turned on by CF, Are you claiming that ten years ago you were able to light a lightbulb using energy generated by cold fusion? That's sure what it sounds like. But if that's true, then ten years ago you were way, way ahead of everyone else in the feld, and you were already ahead of where everyone else in the field is today, as well. I've been following this online off and on for some years, and five years ago, you never seemed to have an answer to the jab, "Where's the water heater?" on sci.physics.fusion. If you could power a lightbulb with CF ten years back then surely you can make a water heater, too, even if it's only a small one. Certainly, with energy to drive a lightbulb you could heat enough water to make a cup of tea, and counter another of the standard jabs directed at CF in the news groups. Why did you never say so? If that's not what you meant, then just what did you mean? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 19:57:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6P2uUNO009323; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:56:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6P2uSuq009291; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:56:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:56:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002901c590c4$66157840$7a037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:56:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5909A.7C5892B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5909A.7C5892B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0026_01C5909A.7C5892B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C5909A.7C5892B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote.. >Interestingly enough, seeing BR as a=20 hydrodynamic phenomena neatly explains=20 something which I've never understood before,=20 i.e. why BR produces a searchlight type beam=20 in the synchrotron. The transition from streamline flow in a=20 pipe (parabolic velocity distribution) to=20 turbulent flow (uniform velocity distribution)=20 can be seen as a transition from isotropic=20 micro vortices with their axes perpendicular=20 to the direction of flow to vortices with=20 their axes parallel to the flow direction. <<<<<<<<< Notation by = Richard.. as neat a description of a liquid vortex as I've seen Now if BR electron orbits are oriented in=20 the same manner as turbulent flow vortices=20 then a collimated beam can be expected. We recently used a "Q" beam lamp to study a new "Coanda Effect" ( double = stacked bladed propeller with venturi effect between blades) being = tested in our windowed water tank. The bright lamp permitted us to watch = the thrust characteristics of the propeller. A reverse vortex appeared. It projected from the recess in the prop hub( used for the prop = mounting bolt) in a tight straight vertical pattern downward from the = vertically mounted 3450RPM vertically mounted electric motor driven = unit. The vortex did appear to repeatedly " cycle" in formation and = decay. Drat that welder of ours for not having the new equipment = finished for our 10,000 RPM run tests to see if we can get a UV and = perhaps a gamma event from increasing the speed . Yes! we have a RAD = meter handy. The formation of the vortex is not nearly as interesting to us as the = "cycling". This indicates we have a capacitor event taking place. hmmm!! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C5909A.7C5892B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Grimer wrote..

    >Interestingly enough, seeing BR as a
    hydrodynamic phenomena = neatly=20 explains
    something which I've never understood before,
    i.e. why = BR=20 produces a searchlight type beam
    in the synchrotron.

    The = transition=20 from streamline flow in a
    pipe (parabolic velocity distribution) to=20
    turbulent flow (uniform velocity distribution)
    can be seen as a=20 transition from isotropic
    micro vortices with their axes = perpendicular=20
    to the direction of flow to vortices with
    their axes parallel to = the=20 flow direction. <<<<<<<<<  Notation by = Richard..=20 as neat a description of a liquid vortex as I've seen
    Now if BR = electron=20 orbits are oriented in
    the same manner as turbulent flow vortices =
    then a=20 collimated beam can be expected.

    We recently used a "Q" beam lamp to study a new "Coanda Effect" = ( double=20 stacked bladed propeller with venturi effect between blades) being = tested=20 in our windowed water tank. The bright lamp permitted us to = watch the=20 thrust characteristics of the propeller. A reverse vortex = appeared.

     It projected from the recess in the prop hub( used for the prop = mounting bolt)  in a tight straight vertical pattern downward = from=20 the vertically mounted 3450RPM vertically = mounted electric motor=20 driven unit. The vortex did appear to repeatedly " cycle" in = formation=20 and decay. Drat that welder of ours for not having the new = equipment=20 finished for our 10,000 RPM run tests to see if we can get a UV and = perhaps a=20 gamma event from increasing the speed . Yes! we have a RAD meter = handy.

    The formation of the vortex is not nearly as interesting to us as the = "cycling". This indicates we have a capacitor event taking place. = hmmm!!

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C5909A.7C5892B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5909A.7C5892B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002401c590c4$652a06d0$7a037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5909A.7C5892B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 24 21:35:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6P4YbZ6015994; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:34:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6P4YZtS015971; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:34:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:34:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050724213254.028bdb20 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:33:41 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic In-Reply-To: <42E45410.5040403 pobox.com> References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48 pop.theworld.com> <42E30FEC.5020104 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318 pop.theworld.com> <42E45410.5040403 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch, I haven't been following this thread closely. Did I read that you are now able to light a light bulb? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 04:37:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PBbJH5024305; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:37:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PBbEUb024210; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:37:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:37:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nLJHLEvNDWiuITWlOZGm+NLRiZnSwL2I2MZSon6TkUYq0o+HZolgbktxHvcTeYT8; Message-ID: <410-22005712510371310 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Slingshot Effect & The MAHG OU Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:37:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94009174a522a8428c3531151db0276382b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.152 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII According to all of these GSU tutorials all you need to do is mix a bit of Mercury Vapor molecules (~200 AMU) with the (~ 2 AMU) H2 molecules at 76 Torr, and Walla! OU heat. ?? Mean Free Path Calculator: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/menfre.html Collision Frequency Calculator: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/frecol.html#c1 Molecular Speed Calculator: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/kintem.html#c4 Standard Collision Applet (Java Calculator): http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/colsta.html#c4 Double Ball Drop: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html Resulting Kinetic Energy: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ke.html#ke Heat and Work: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    According to all of these GSU tutorials all you need to do is mix
    a bit of Mercury  Vapor molecules (~200 AMU) with the (~ 2 AMU) H2 molecules
    at 76 Torr, and  Walla! OU heat.  ??
     
     
    Mean Free Path Calculator:
     
     
    Collision Frequency Calculator:
     
     
    Molecular Speed Calculator:
     
     
     
    Standard Collision Applet (Java Calculator):
     
     
    Double Ball Drop:
     
     
    Resulting Kinetic Energy:
     
     
    Heat and Work:
     
     
    Frederick
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 06:51:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PDouIw014814; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:51:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PDorZZ014789; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:50:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:50:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Not What They Seem Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 9:50:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050725135024.KLY27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those of you who think my ideas about an electric sun and a hollow moon are the rantings of a crackpot, I offer the following proof that things are not what they seem. Simply go to: http://moon.google.com/ and you will observe that the locations of each lunar landing have been mapped. Now, carefully zoom in on any one of them to the limit of google's zoom. The color is off a bit. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 07:06:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PE69sp020993; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:06:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PE67nA020964; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:06:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:06:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c59121$f63ae3d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050725135024.KLY27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Not What They Seem Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:05:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very cheesy.... I think a computer-geek at Google got the munchies and let their mouse do the final frame.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 6:50 AM Subject: Not What They Seem > For those of you who think my ideas about an electric sun and a > hollow moon are the rantings of a crackpot, I offer the > following proof that things are not what they seem. Simply go > to: > > http://moon.google.com/ > > and you will observe that the locations of each lunar landing > have been mapped. Now, carefully zoom in on any one of them to > the limit of google's zoom. > > The color is off a bit. > > ;-) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 07:33:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PEWZkb001596; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:32:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PEWYCJ001586; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:32:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:32:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050725102638.04e91eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:29:34 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Another article by Haiko Lietz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20562/1.html English version: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20585/1.html This is bringing a lot of traffic to LENR-CANR.org today. Quotes from article: "The world needs an Apollo-type program for cold fusion After three years of studies climate scientists have come to the conclusion that Europe is going to experience an extreme climate change within the next decades. More dryness in summer, prolonged droughts in the south, shut downs of power plants due to overheating, more rain in winter, greater flood risk and water pollution, a forced change in agriculture, in general: more extreme weather conditions with extreme consequences. Unfortunately decision makers in business and governments tended to ignore this issue because of the long-term predictions. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 08:09:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PF919Y020031; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:09:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PF8vX6019912; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:08:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:08:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050725150557.009c221c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:05:57 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Not What They Seem Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:50 am 25/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: > For those of you who think my ideas about an electric > sun and a hollow moon are the rantings of a crackpot, > I offer the following proof that things are not what > they seem. Simply go to: > > http://moon.google.com/ > > and you will observe that the locations of each lunar > landing have been mapped. Now, carefully zoom in on > any one of them to the limit of google's zoom. > > The color is off a bit. > Yummy, yummy - Emmental - My favourite. 8-) www.theworldwidegourmet.com/.../ emmental.htm Wallace and Gromit vindicated at last ================================================== A Grand Day Out -------------------------------------------------- Nominated for an Academy Award in 1990, the first short-film adventure of Wallace & Gromit was this 24-minute comedy, created by clay animator Nick Park (no relation to the Doctor, I'm glad to say) over a six-year period at the National Film & Television School in London, and at the Aardman Animation studios that Park boosted to international acclaim. In their debut adventure, Wallace and his furry pal Gromit find themselves desperate for "a nice bit of Emmental," but their refrigerator's empty and the local cheese shop is closed for a holiday! Undeterred, Wallace comes up with an extreme solution to the cheese shortage: since the moon is made of cheese (we all know that's true, right?), he decides to build a rocket ship and blast off for a cheesy lunar picnic! Gromit's only too happy to help, and before long the inventive duo is on the moon, where they encounter a clever appliance that's part oven, part robot, part lunar skiing enthusiast ... well, you just have to see the movie to understand how any of this whimsical lunar-cy can make any sense! It's a grand tale of wonderful discoveries, fantastic inventions --and really great cheese! ================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 08:17:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PFHELO024527; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:17:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PFHDIZ024507; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:17:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:17:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050725111320.04e91880 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:14:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: CF in Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Note that Haiko Lietz also wrote a review of CF research in Germany: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LietzHcondensedm.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 08:25:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PFPTeG027727; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:25:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PFPO33027680; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:25:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:25:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Not What They Seem Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:25:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050725152502.DBET27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > Yummy, yummy - Emmental - My favourite. 8-) Mousebender's seventh choice, I believe (Cleese cheese). http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/cheese_shop.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 08:39:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PFcdgt001261; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:38:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PFccEm001254; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:38:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:38:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050725153541.009c6bd8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:35:41 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Another article by Haiko Lietz Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:29 am 25/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >See: > >http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20585/1.html > >This is bringing a lot of traffic to LENR-CANR.org today. That's a good plug for the LENR website. I was amused to read at the end of the article. ================================================= Where there is will there is a way and "the way" in Latin means "iter". But hope does not rest on ITER but on responsible decision makers that no longer inactively watch the decay of natural and societal balance. It is time to act! ================================================= I'll have to remember that one when I'm plugging ITERative Hierarchical Mechanics. Cheers Frank Grimer ========================== dicit ei Iesus ego sum via et veritas et vita nemo venit ad Patrem nisi per me ========================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 08:48:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PFlQdS005106; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:47:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PFlOfo005068; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:47:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:47:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050725114315.04e967c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:44:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Another article by Haiko Lietz In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050725153541.009c6bd8 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050725153541.009c6bd8 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is an interesting comment about the U.K. press: "The US has always believed," analyzes the Guardian, "that there would be some kind of magic bullet, such as cold fusion or some other theoretically plausible but unlikely method of producing electricity, or perhaps hydrogen as an alternative to fossil fuels", but outside the G8 negotiating rooms, no one believed that. Indeed the US plan to save the world climate through new hydrogen technologies, "clean" conventional power plants that generate power from hydrocarbons but release no carbon to the atmosphere, and nuclear fusion. What they mean is, however, hot fusion, not cold fusion. . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 09:00:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PFxbjU012679; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:59:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PFxZMV012652; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:59:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:59:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=GLkOVkTxG9tLUEReTPRAS7r+oMSsJtKGr3BuJG3Hu/23PGwc7cgTGQoaJh6x0V8O7tZHwxGLDhGc4RbXzAgCH+OSvO/Lloq5WOY0NhUZxoSH8ICESQ858eld9EuBM97U8FSoAh2/73BR9sGRB9r9/zEKXcpUOu/hmk2Cu6qf+Xc= ; Message-ID: <20050725155627.93361.qmail web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:56:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050722215734.009d5aa8 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Grimer wrote: > At 12:24 pm 22/07/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: > > > It is a very compelling theory Frank, > > You say the nicest things, Merlyn. 8-) > > > but I don't think it works out. > > But here comes the "but" ;^) > > > > >Picture it this way... > > > >I have a spring (coulomb force) separating 2 steel > >plates (protons) > >Note that the space between the plates is open to > the > >surroundings atmosphere and not sealed. > >The force required to move the plates closer > together > >is very precisely calculated in air at 14.7 psi. > >Now if I were to place the entire apparatus under > >water where the pressure was raised to 100 psi > would > >it make any difference in the force needed to > compress > >the spring? The added pressure acts equally on all > >sides of the plates and so cancels out. > > > I don't see the repulsive force between two like > charges > as something static, but something dynamic, a flux, > a > flow of substance. Now, clearly, the repulsive > pressure > this flow will exert will be proportional to the > difference > between the pressure of the outgoing flow and the > ambient > pressure of the field. If both pressures are the > same, > for example, then there can be no repulsion. > > The nature of the "attractive" force is quite > different. > It doesn't emanate from the charges themselves but > from > the ambient field. > > It is brought about by the Bernoulli pressure drop > in the > flow and counter flow between the electron (at a > pressure > above B-a ambient) and the proton (at a pressure > below > B-a ambient). > > To give a loose analogy which I wouldn't want to > press too > far. The earth receives directed radiation from the > sun > at one average wavelength and transmits it > isotropically > at a lower wavelength. > > The higher wavelength is analogous to the > Gamma-atmosphere. > the lower to the Beta-atmosphere. > What I was trying to illustrate, is that AFAIK the ambient electric and magnetic fields can not really be shielded, and effect the particles from all sides. By considering charge as a pressure you lose the ability to amass charge by collecting particles. pressure being force over area, increasing the number of particles at a given pressure (charge) results in the same pressure instead of a collection of charge. FWIW I have seesawed back and forth in my analysis of your theory. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 09:14:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PGDsKP019940; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:14:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PGDqqo019915; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:13:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:13:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E50FA6.7030105 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:13:26 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A page on the Sagnac effect Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0iXx6D.A.H3E._-Q5CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just added a page on the Sagnac effect to my little relativity site. For once I actually attempted to keep the math under control; there's nothing messier than a Lorentz transform on the page. If you find the Sagnac effect confusing, or if you've been puzzled by the websites that claim it's inexplicable in relativity theory, you might find it interesting: http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html Anyhow, 'nuff spam for now; this has very little to do with energy... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 09:45:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PGjLbY008862; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:45:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PGjJAK008822; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:45:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:45:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: A page on the Sagnac effect Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:44:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050725164451.YKKR24175.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > Anyhow, 'nuff spam for now; this has very little to do with energy... Some folks are fighting back at spammers: http://mosnews.com/news/2005/07/25/spammerdead.shtml From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 10:36:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PHZO3x002648; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:35:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PHZL5b002590; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:35:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:35:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050725173458.009c578c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:34:58 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been re-reading one of Puthoff's old papers from 1986, which was recenly referred to on Vortex, viz, ===================================================== Ground state of hydrogen as a zero-point-fluctuation- determined state http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v35/i10/p3266_1 ===================================================== Perhaps re-reading is a wild exageration since I find reading that kind of stuff like wading through treacle. However, I did find myself in sypathy with the executive summaries, i.e. the ===================================================== ABSTRACT We show here that, within the stochastic electrodynamic formulation and at the level of Bohr theory, the ground state of the hydrogen atom can be precisely defined as resulting from a dynamic equilibrium between radiation emitted due to acceleration of the electron in its ground-state orbit and radiation absorbed from zero-point fluctuations of the background vacuum electromagnetic field, thereby resolving the issue of radiative collapse of the Bohr atom. ===================================================== and the tail end of the discussion, ============================================================ Finally, it is seen that a well-defined, precise quantita- tive argument can be made that the ground state of the hydrogen atom is defined by a dynamic equilibrium in which collapse of the state is prevented by the presence of zero-point fluctuations of the electromagnetic field. This carries with it the attendant implication that the stability of matter itself is largely mediated by ZPF phenomena in the manner described here, a concept that transcends the usual interpretation of the role and significance of zero- point fluctuations of the vacuum electromagnetic field. =========================================================== but I would prefer to come at it starting with the neutron. Whilst in a nucleus the neutron is protected from being bashed around by the ZPE particles but once it gets outside it's only a matter of time before it's pummelled into the stable state of the hydrogen atom in its various configurations. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 11:29:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PITCqw029578; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:29:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PITA6P029560; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:29:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:29:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:28:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050725182844.CWQ24175.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > I've been re-reading one of Puthoff's old papers > from 1986, which was recenly referred to on Vortex, > viz, The reason for the non-radiating orbiting electron has been a primary topic of disagreement between Randell Mills and Harold Puthoff theories (among many). Gee, did you know Dr. Puthoff will be 80 next year? He doesn't look it. Must have been that clean Xenunian living in his earlier years. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 12:54:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PJrVD5010708; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:53:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PJrSw5010697; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:53:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:53:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Weather Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:53:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050725195307.CAOM24175.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just got back from observing some fiber cable testing in midtown. It is 94 degrees F here in Hotlanta with a heat index of 101 degrees. Tomorrow it will be 98/110. In Canberra, NSW it is 49 degrees F. I think I'll have a Fosters! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 13:08:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PK7t8X017015; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:08:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PK7ruD016991; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:07:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:07:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vheq$12n4ovr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,140,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1165124603:sNHT477027568" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:06:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > > I've been re-reading one of Puthoff's old papers > from 1986, which was recenly referred to on Vortex, > viz, ... > ===================================================== > ABSTRACT > > We show here that, within the stochastic electrodynamic > formulation and at the level of Bohr theory, the ground > state of the hydrogen atom can be precisely defined as > resulting from a dynamic equilibrium between radiation > emitted due to acceleration of the electron in its > ground-state orbit and radiation absorbed from zero-point > fluctuations of the background vacuum electromagnetic > field, thereby resolving the issue of radiative collapse > of the Bohr atom. > ===================================================== > > and the tail end of the discussion, > > >========================================================== > Finally, it is seen that a well-defined, precise quantita- > tive argument can be made that the ground state of the > hydrogen atom is defined by a dynamic equilibrium in > which collapse of the state is prevented by the presence of > zero-point fluctuations of the electromagnetic field. This > carries with it the attendant implication that the stability > of matter itself is largely mediated by ZPF phenomena in > the manner described here, a concept that transcends the > usual interpretation of the role and significance of zero- > point fluctuations of the vacuum electromagnetic field. >========================================================= Putoff's theory, on the surface, possesses an elegant symmetry to it, not that I'm really in a position to challenge it. There remains, however, a nagging question that gnaws at me. According to my own provincial understanding of QM theory it's considered somewhat of an embarrassment that the electron doesn't seem to collapse into the nucleus of the hydrogen atom - due to the fact that it should be emanating energy - due to the fact that it is costantly 'accelerating' around the hydrogen nucleus. Clearly, this ain't happening! Now, according to Putoff's model, ZPE fluctuations, more or less, instantaneously re-supply the departing energy that according to QM should be emanating from the orbiting electron. IOW, ZPE fluctuations conveniently prevent the orbiting electron from collapsing into the nucleus, which incidentally saves the universe as a secondary benefit. Never the less there remains, in my view, a HUGE unsolved mystery: If energy is being "emitted" only to be re-supplied by ZPE fluctuation that STILL doesn't explain WHAT HAPPENED to the original energy emitted from the electron. Can someone explain where it all went? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 13:31:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PKUjjF028766; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:31:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PKUgqm028715; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:30:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:30:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003a01c59157$ae667660$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: Subject: rust and overunity (diamonds) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:30:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5911D.00260D20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5911D.00260D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Like everything of value in today's world, "rust" has its own home page. The iron oxide home page itself is fairly lightweight: http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebS= ites/2003/ironoxide/home.htm But it is a jumping-off point for this un-reduced soliloquy - which will = get back to MAHG in the end, after polishing-up this = diamond-in-the-rough =3D rust. Many metals react with oxygen to form a chemical compound whose = properties are a combination of that material and oxygen - often the = good ones are called ceramics or anodized coatings. "Rust" has few nice = connotations, however, as we all know. When iron combines with oxygen it = forms a weaker, larger molecule than iron, ergo: it often puffs-up, = flakes-off and "grows" to weaken and degrade the underlying structure. = This is because rust requires considerably more physical space than did = the original iron. Not so good. But to paraphrase a more-vocal flake: =20 I'll be damned, here comes that OU ghost again But that's not unusual: it's just that the moon is full Hearing a voice I'd known, a couple of light years ago Headed straight for a fall, but OU memories always bring=20 Diamonds and Rust Rust's so hypercritical, give me another word for it You were so good with words, and keeping things vague...=20 One is permitted to occasionally add a small amount of "literary = license" to normally-boring technical writing, no?=20 Ancient people thought that rust was "alive" and that you had to "kill = it" to stop metal from continuing to degrade. In contrast, what they = didn't know was that without iron and its bloody attraction for O2, life = would be less sanguine. Meaning, of course that they were almost correct = - and rust is almost alive.=20 The real significance is that once rust is formed, there is an "extra" = molecule, over what entropy would dictate if it had any respect for = spatial-harmony - resulting in *mobile oxygen* in the metal. Some of the = oxygen would rather be elsewhere, and it is a much-more-mobile variable = than in a "normal" ceramic, where it is essentially frozen. And to = continue the anthropomorphism, this interloper bounces around like it is = both schizophrenic and bipolar. Making rust an excellent catalyst. The best techniques to "kill" (neutralize) rust usually rely on = "reducing" it or converting red-rust into the "black oxide" which is = good-rust of magnetite. Reducing compounds like hydrogen can do this = easily. Rust is really Fe2-O3, the reddish form and the other oxide, = Fe3-O4 is the black oxide, a good protection for steel. Like aluminum = oxide (anodized aluminum), black oxide molecules are the same size as = the host metal, so black oxide does not grow or flake. Black oxide is = "gun-bluing," the oxide found on the surface of drill bits or steel that = has been hot-worked (Damascus steel).=20 This varying size difference between the red and the black rust is a = HUGE variable at the interfacial layer because it can allow the surface = to "breath" hydrogen in and out of surface pores, especially on an = intentionally rough surface, so that hydrogen can itself convert from = o-2-p as it were. The two different oxidation potentials for iron ions, Fe2+ and Fe3+, = cause the two very different classes of oxides A.K.A : ferrous or ferric = oxide, or iron (II) and iron (III) oxide. While rust is generally not = desirable, as a **catalyst,** it can greatly accelerated the reaction = between two other substances without being used-up itself. The mobility = of the O2 is the key. Like the iron is magnetic - so it can move around = but always be attracted back.=20 One reaction in which iron oxide is a catalyst is the converting of = carbon monoxide, a toxic gas, into carbon dioxide, a necessary gas for = the planet. Another instance is the synthesis of ammonia. Iron oxide is = also used in hydrogen liquefaction in order to get the last little bit = of heat out. The most important of all uses of rust as a catalyst (this is my = prediction for 2005) may be as a catalyst for the exothermic conversion = of ortho-hydrogen to para-hydrogen - but not in hydrogen liquefaction: = rather in hydrogen ZPE coherence.=20 Energy is also given off when rust forms, and when hydrogen is converted = in the process, there is a complicated ZPE engine at work = (hypothetically). Needless to say, this is only a prediction (based on = one experiment). The prediction is that in a device like the MAHG, where = o-2-p hydrogen isomers can oscillate at a very high and resonant = frequency, such a device will function best with an iron oxide anode. = With the usual CAVEAT (if the MAHG is OU and if the o-2-p hydrogen = modality is operative). Converting rust to diamonds... so to speak. Conditionally yours, Jones (no-Baez) H2-OU... has a nice lilt to it... Hmmm...remind you of Oh Happy Day, a = Twist of Fate, and Amazing Grace: all in one Forever Young package? ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5911D.00260D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Like everything of value in today's = world, "rust"=20 has its own home page.

    The iron oxide home page itself is fairly=20 lightweight:
    http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemist= ry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2003/ironoxide/home.htm
    But it is a jumping-off point for this = un-reduced=20 soliloquy - which will get back to MAHG in the end, after = polishing-up this=20 diamond-in-the-rough =3D rust.

    Many metals react with oxygen to = form a=20 chemical compound whose properties are a combination of that material = and oxygen=20 - often the good ones are called ceramics or anodized coatings. "Rust" = has few=20 nice connotations, however, as we all know. When iron combines with = oxygen it=20 forms a weaker, larger molecule than iron, ergo: it often puffs-up, = flakes-off=20 and "grows" to weaken and degrade the underlying structure. This is = because=20 rust requires considerably more physical space than did the original = iron. Not=20 so good. But to paraphrase a more-vocal = flake:
     
       =20 I=92ll be damned, here comes that OU ghost again
        = But that=92s=20 not unusual: it=92s just that the moon is full
        = Hearing a=20 voice I=92d known, a couple of light years ago
        = Headed=20 straight for a fall, but OU memories always bring
        = Diamonds and Rust
        Rust's so hypercritical, give me = another=20 word for it
        You were so good with words, and = keeping=20 things vague...

    One is permitted to occasionally add a small = amount of=20 "literary license" to normally-boring technical writing, no? =
     
    Ancient people thought that rust was = "alive" and=20 that you had to "kill it" to stop metal from continuing to degrade. In = contrast,=20 what they didn't know was that without iron and its bloody attraction = for O2,=20 life would be less sanguine. Meaning, of course that they were almost = correct -=20 and rust is almost alive.
     
    The real significance is that once rust = is formed,=20 there is an "extra" molecule, over what entropy would dictate if it had = any=20 respect for spatial-harmony - resulting in *mobile oxygen* in = the=20 metal. Some of the oxygen would rather be elsewhere, and it is a=20 much-more-mobile variable than in a "normal" ceramic, where it is = essentially=20 frozen. And to continue the anthropomorphism, this interloper = bounces=20 around like it is both schizophrenic and bipolar. Making rust an = excellent=20 catalyst.
     
    The best techniques to "kill" = (neutralize) rust=20 usually rely on "reducing" it or converting red-rust into the = "black oxide"=20 which is good-rust of magnetite. Reducing compounds like hydrogen can do = this=20 easily. Rust is really Fe2-O3, the reddish form and the other oxide, = Fe3-O4 is=20 the black oxide, a good protection for steel. Like aluminum oxide = (anodized=20 aluminum), black oxide molecules are the same size as the host metal, so = black=20 oxide does not grow or flake. Black oxide is "gun-bluing," the oxide = found on=20 the surface of drill bits or steel that has been hot-worked (Damascus = steel).=20
     
    This varying size difference between = the red and=20 the black rust is a HUGE variable at the interfacial layer because it = can allow=20 the surface to "breath" hydrogen in and out of surface pores, especially = on an=20 intentionally rough surface, so that hydrogen can itself convert = from o-2-p=20 as it were.

    The two different oxidation potentials for iron ions, = Fe2+=20 and Fe3+, cause the two very different classes of oxides A.K.A : ferrous = or=20 ferric oxide, or iron (II) and iron (III) oxide. While rust is generally = not=20 desirable, as a **catalyst,** it can greatly accelerated the reaction = between=20 two other substances without being used-up itself. The mobility of the = O2 is the=20 key. Like the iron is magnetic - so it can move around but always be = attracted=20 back.
     
    One reaction in which iron oxide is a = catalyst is=20 the converting of carbon monoxide, a toxic gas, into carbon dioxide, a = necessary=20 gas for the planet. Another instance is the synthesis of ammonia. Iron = oxide is=20 also used in hydrogen liquefaction in order to get the last little bit = of heat=20 out.

    The most important of all uses of rust as a catalyst (this = is my=20 prediction for 2005) may be as a catalyst for the exothermic conversion = of=20 ortho-hydrogen to para-hydrogen - but not in hydrogen liquefaction: = rather in=20 hydrogen ZPE coherence. 
     
    Energy is also given off when rust = forms, and when=20 hydrogen is converted in the process, there is a complicated ZPE engine = at work=20 (hypothetically). Needless to say, this is only a prediction (based on = one=20 experiment). The prediction is that in a device like the MAHG, = where o-2-p=20 hydrogen isomers can oscillate at a very high and resonant = frequency, such=20 a device will function best with an iron oxide anode. With the = usual CAVEAT=20 (if the MAHG is OU and if the o-2-p hydrogen modality is=20 operative).

    Converting rust to diamonds... so to speak.
     
    Conditionally yours,
     
    Jones (no-Baez)
     
    H2-OU... has a nice lilt to it... Hmmm...remind you of Oh = Happy Day, a=20 Twist of Fate, and Amazing Grace: all in one Forever Young=20 package?
    ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5911D.00260D20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 14:20:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PLJqYe021405; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:20:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PLJoeH021338; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:19:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:19:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:19:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050725211918.DYGL24175.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: If energy is being "emitted" only to be re-supplied by ZPE fluctuation that STILL doesn't explain WHAT HAPPENED to the original energy emitted from the electron. > > Can someone explain where it all went? Well, IMO, to quote our own dear Jonesie, it never made it into our three-space. Remember, this is fractional photonic radiation. Puthoff thought he could tap this radiation using cavity quantum electrodynamics: "In cavity QED, excited atoms are passed through Casimir-like cavities whose structure suppresses electromagnetic cavity modes at the transition frequency between the atom's excited and ground states. The result is that the so-called "spontaneous" emission time is lengthened considerably (for example, by factors of ten), simply because spontaneous emission is not so spontaneous after all, but rather is driven by vacuum fluctuations. Eliminate the modes, and you eliminate the zero-point fluctuations of the modes, hence suppressing decay of the excited state." http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/VacuumEngineered.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 15:45:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PMiuK7029989; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:45:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PMiskd029976; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:44:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:44:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01e601c59169$80ade200$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48@pop.theworld.com> <42E30FEC.5020104@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318@pop.theworld.com> <42E45410.5040403@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050724213254.028bdb20@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That question does deserve an answer. Wouldn't lighting a lightbulb from excess cold fusion energy be quite a breakthrough? It would be a nice demo at the next MIT Cold Fusion Colloquium, a light bulb lit by a cold fusion cell. That would put the skeptics to rest for good. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" To: Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:33 AM Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic > Mitch, > > I haven't been following this thread closely. Did I read that you are now > able to light a light bulb? > > > Steve > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 16:28:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6PNRtIG015234; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:28:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6PNRrrY015210; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:27:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:27:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vi84$12pgr5a mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,141,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1167617194:sNHT15083080" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:27:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > From: > > If energy is being "emitted" only to be re-supplied by > > ZPE fluctuation that STILL doesn't explain WHAT HAPPENED > > to the original energy emitted from the electron. > > > > Can someone explain where it all went? > > Well, IMO, to quote our own dear Jonesie, it never made > it into our three-space. Remember, this is fractional > photonic radiation. Puthoff thought he could tap this > radiation using cavity quantum electrodynamics: > > "In cavity QED, excited atoms are passed through > Casimir-like cavities whose structure suppresses > electromagnetic cavity modes at the transition frequency > between the atom's excited and ground states. The result > is that the so-called "spontaneous" emission time is > lengthened considerably (for example, by factors of ten), > simply because spontaneous emission is not so spontaneous > after all, but rather is driven by vacuum fluctuations. > Eliminate the modes, and you eliminate the zero-point > fluctuations of the modes, hence suppressing decay of the > excited state." > > > http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/VacuumEngineered.htm Thanks for the brief explanation and link, Terry. This is going to take some serious reading on my part. Alas, most of what you initially described went completely over my head. The only thing that did catch my interest was the term "fractional" that THAT immediately made me think of the esteemed Dr. Mills and his fractional hydrino "P" states. It does make me wonder if there might be at least some similarities between Putoff and Mill's theory, which I gather on the surface are about as opposite to each other as night is to day. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 19:33:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6Q2U98v023433; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:33:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6Q20Zr9011527; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:00:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:00:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.32.201] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:00:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050726020011.KLPL3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > It does make me wonder if there might be at least some similarities between Putoff and Mill's theory, which I gather on the surface are about as opposite to each other as night is to day. Yeah, well, "Putoff", aka "Puthoff", is not an MD. And, he might lack some of Randell's insight. Besides, most of what Harold writes is about accepted theorem. But, it could all be wrong. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 19:55:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6Q2svRd000775; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6Q2strU000755; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:54:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:54:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.32.201] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:54:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050726025434.LLJP3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > It does make me wonder if there might be at least some similarities between Putoff and Mill's theory, which I gather on the surface are about as opposite to each other as night is to day. Well, Orion's Bell (t), at least have the respect to spell Hal's name correctly. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 20:43:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6Q3hSp9018079; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:43:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6Q3hQjp018065; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:43:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:43:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$18bs0bn mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,141,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1354629495:sNHT435432108" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:42:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1h_h_D.A.NaE.eFb5CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > Date: 2005/07/25 Mon PM 10:54:34 EDT > To: > Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense > > > From: > > > It does make me wonder if there might be at least some similarities between Putoff and Mill's theory, which I gather on the surface are about as opposite to each other as night is to day. > > Well, Orion's Bell (t), at least have the respect to spell Hal's name correctly. > You seem to be implying a lack of respect on my part. Really? I'm sure Hal Puthoff does he need my respect. My fingers and my keyboard don't always communicate efffectively. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 20:58:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6Q3w0qY022653; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:58:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6Q3vxqV022641; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:57:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:57:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050725233324.021af508 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:57:22 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic Cc: "Stephen A. Lawrence" In-Reply-To: <42E45410.5040403 pobox.com> References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050723204218.021f3f48 pop.theworld.com> <42E30FEC.5020104 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.1.20050724074304.02248318 pop.theworld.com> <42E45410.5040403 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.86rc1/992/Mon Jul 25 17:48:49 2005 on pcls1.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:53 PM 7/24/2005, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> Also, corroborating this, we have made electricity for years using >> cold fusion systems [since before our >>first report in Fusion Facts (Hal Fox, editor) a decade ago when a small >>light bulb first turned on by CF, > >Are you claiming that ten years ago you were able to light a lightbulb >using energy generated by cold fusion? >That's sure what it sounds like. But if that's true, then ten years ago >you were way, way ahead of everyone else in the feld, and you were already >ahead of where everyone else in the field is today, as well. Steven: The generation of electricity by cold fusion, and its use to light LEDs and a small light bulb was first reported by us many years ago in 'Fusion Facts', following the achievement in January 1996. You can contact Hal Fox in Utah who briefly reported the event that Spring in his magazine, if memory serves. I had an issue somewhere around, but cannot find it at this moment. >I've been following this online off and on for some years, and five years >ago, you never seemed to have an answer to the jab, "Where's the water >heater?" on sci.physics.fusion. If you could power a lightbulb with CF ten >years back then surely you can make a water heater, too, even if it's only >a small one. Certainly, with energy to drive a lightbulb you could heat >enough water to make a cup of tea, and counter another of the standard >jabs directed at CF in the news groups. Why did you never say so? Cup of tea? LOL. You could not drink the any liquid at the temperatures we achieve. [One run of core temperature is shown here: http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html Is circa 90C not hot enough for you? ;-)X ] We have been near-boiling water for years; and publishing the results continuously, and have even shown lower power demonstration units, including at the MIT during the entire week of ICCF10 in the MIT EE building. http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html Never say so? ROTFLOL. There has long been more than enough "jabs" consisting of scientific data for the skeptics. However, most of them are more interested in hot air than cold fusion, it seems. FWIW, more than 45 papers and presentations at many conferences and a public demonstration at MIT suggests much has been "said". partial refs at: http://world.std.com/~mica/jetrefs.html Send me a snail mail address by private email, if you would like a copy of the COLD FUSION TIMES http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html to find out what is really going on in cold fusion. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 21:17:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6Q4HIFi029157; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:17:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6Q4HHEX029141; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:17:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:17:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003a01c59198$da876510$7b037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Not what they seem Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:16:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C5916E.F1296860"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C5916E.F1296860 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0037_01C5916E.F1296860" ------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C5916E.F1296860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankTerry,=20 Yes , things are not what they seem. This statement extends to most = science.=20 Way back when I was in school we were taught crude oil came from = dinasaurs and decayed vegetable matter and this was in the early 1940's. I have been posting a few " ringers" . One is that the sun may be a = transceiver. Receiving energy in a form we do not understand. This = energy could be manifested in an event similar to an arc welder = electrode touching a steel surface. The sun could be a giant pece of = ferrite metal (iron) with solar flares indicating an imbalance of = received energy. Throwing another " ringer" out. Saturn the planet with rings. Impossible ! there can be no rings around = a planet like Saturn without voiding basic.scientific principle. = UNLESS.. we consider there is a useful purpose for the rings. Ah ha ! = The rings may be a manifestation of a gyroscope used to keep our local = solar system in sinc. OR.. a more far out thought. The rings may represent a type of " hard = drive". SETI works tirelessly seeking signals from space. They may be = looking at the task backward. The information they seek may be " stored = " on the " discs".. the rings of Saturn. At some point in the search for CF and new forms of energy we must begin = thinking creation is NO ACCIDENT of evolution hit and miss science. . There is a use and purpose for everything. The fact that rings appear = around Saturn could mean there is a purpose for them.=20 Theory of a beginning , a big bang etc. may be leading us astray like = the dinasaurs with crude oil.. Creation may not be creation as we = attempt to " typecast" it. It may be " eternal" with no beginning and no end, only never ending = phases. This concept is impossible to grasp because we have " time " = burned into our thinking. We may be interpreting the bible creation = account incorrectly. It may be the event means the earth, and NOT the = entire solar system was created in the six time periods which are = assumed to cover some 12-15 billion years in our time measurement = system. Interjecting bible scripture into science discussion is = necessary because it is an important written record of the past. If we = could get past the " religion" part and concentrate on the science part = we can study the deep insight of what what was recorded . For example, = the book of Job is an absolute masterpiece of physics principles that = have weathered the years unchallenged.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C5916E.F1296860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Terry,
     
    Yes , things are not what they seem. This statement extends to most = science.
    Way back when I was in school we were taught crude oil came from = dinasaurs=20 and decayed vegetable matter and this was in the early 1940's.
     
    I have been posting a few " ringers" . One is that the sun may be a = transceiver. Receiving energy in a form we do not understand. This = energy could=20 be manifested in an event similar to an arc welder electrode touching a = steel=20 surface. The sun could be a giant pece of ferrite metal (iron) with = solar flares=20 indicating an imbalance of received energy.
     
    Throwing another " ringer" out.
     
    Saturn the planet with rings. Impossible ! there can be no rings = around a=20 planet like Saturn without voiding basic.scientific principle.  = UNLESS.. we=20 consider there is a useful purpose for the rings. Ah ha !  The = rings may be=20 a manifestation of a gyroscope used to keep our local solar system in=20 sinc.
    OR.. a more far out thought. The rings may represent a type of " = hard=20 drive". SETI works tirelessly seeking signals from space. They may be = looking at=20 the task backward. The information they seek may be " stored " on the " = discs"..=20 the rings of Saturn.
     
    At some point in the search for CF and new forms of energy we must = begin=20 thinking creation is NO ACCIDENT of evolution hit and miss = science.
    . There is a use and purpose for everything. The fact that rings = appear=20 around Saturn could mean there is a purpose for them.
     
    Theory of a beginning , a big bang etc. may be leading us = astray=20 like the dinasaurs with crude oil.. Creation may not be creation as we = attempt=20 to " typecast" it.
    It may be " eternal" with no beginning and no end, only never = ending=20 phases. This concept is impossible to grasp because we have " time " = burned into=20 our thinking. We may be interpreting the bible creation account = incorrectly. It=20 may be the event means the earth, and NOT the entire solar system = was=20 created in the six time periods which are assumed to cover some 12-15 = billion=20 years in our time measurement system. Interjecting bible scripture into = science=20 discussion is necessary because it is an important written record of the = past.=20 If we could get past the " religion" part and concentrate on the science = part we=20 can study the deep insight of what what was recorded . For example, the = book of=20 Job is an absolute masterpiece of physics principles that have weathered = the=20 years unchallenged.
     
    Richard
     

     

    ------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C5916E.F1296860-- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C5916E.F1296860 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003501c59198$d9eb9a40$7b037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C5916E.F1296860-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 21:30:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6Q4Tkht001746; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:30:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6Q4TjCn001720; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:29:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:29:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=yuCY7gdfrsKx7D+v1DU9O054cXCM3cESYIXt3Evpc7LxMbeLlwTfnDLiB+y4ATmKNegf+rwPEI8iqN0OJJuNp82R2LXSoGa1vT5MIpsyLflUOMoveH8De0rilQByvyuAHN+HggQZzaG1eAJVaFvJ7F/qeBIcj4g6XDLaSiZiqAg= ; Message-ID: <20050726042924.62046.qmail web33313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:29:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Not what they seem To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <003a01c59198$da876510$7b037841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-457389137-1122352163=:60810" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-457389137-1122352163=:60810 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-932284181-1122352163=:60810" --0-932284181-1122352163=:60810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard, Only because you mentioned it - have you considered that our sun could be the inside of a Black hole residing in a parallel universe? Just a thought. Chris RC Macaulay wrote: BODY { MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica}P.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman"}LI.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman"}Terry, Yes , things are not what they seem. This statement extends to most science. Way back when I was in school we were taught crude oil came from dinasaurs and decayed vegetable matter and this was in the early 1940's. I have been posting a few " ringers" . One is that the sun may be a transceiver. Receiving energy in a form we do not understand. This energy could be manifested in an event similar to an arc welder electrode touching a steel surface. The sun could be a giant pece of ferrite metal (iron) with solar flares indicating an imbalance of received energy. Throwing another " ringer" out. Saturn the planet with rings. Impossible ! there can be no rings around a planet like Saturn without voiding basic.scientific principle. UNLESS.. we consider there is a useful purpose for the rings. Ah ha ! The rings may be a manifestation of a gyroscope used to keep our local solar system in sinc. OR.. a more far out thought. The rings may represent a type of " hard drive". SETI works tirelessly seeking signals from space. They may be looking at the task backward. The information they seek may be " stored " on the " discs".. the rings of Saturn. At some point in the search for CF and new forms of energy we must begin thinking creation is NO ACCIDENT of evolution hit and miss science. . There is a use and purpose for everything. The fact that rings appear around Saturn could mean there is a purpose for them. Theory of a beginning , a big bang etc. may be leading us astray like the dinasaurs with crude oil.. Creation may not be creation as we attempt to " typecast" it. It may be " eternal" with no beginning and no end, only never ending phases. This concept is impossible to grasp because we have " time " burned into our thinking. We may be interpreting the bible creation account incorrectly. It may be the event means the earth, and NOT the entire solar system was created in the six time periods which are assumed to cover some 12-15 billion years in our time measurement system. Interjecting bible scripture into science discussion is necessary because it is an important written record of the past. If we could get past the " religion" part and concentrate on the science part we can study the deep insight of what what was recorded . For example, the book of Job is an absolute masterpiece of physics principles that have weathered the years unchallenged. Richard --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-932284181-1122352163=:60810 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Richard,
     
    Only because you mentioned it - have you considered that our sun could be the inside of a Black hole residing in a parallel universe? Just a thought.
     
    Chris

    RC Macaulay <walhalla cvtv.net> wrote:
    Terry,
     
    Yes , things are not what they seem. This statement extends to most science.
    Way back when I was in school we were taught crude oil came from dinasaurs and decayed vegetable matter and this was in the early 1940's.
     
    I have been posting a few " ringers" . One is that the sun may be a transceiver. Receiving energy in a form we do not understand. This energy could be manifested in an event similar to an arc welder electrode touching a steel surface. The sun could be a giant pece of ferrite metal (iron) with solar flares indicating an imbalance of received energy.
     
    Throwing another " ringer" out.
     
    Saturn the planet with rings. Impossible ! there can be no rings around a planet like Saturn without voiding basic.scientific principle.  UNLESS.. we consider there is a useful purpose for the rings. Ah ha !  The rings may be a manifestation of a gyroscope used to keep our local solar system in sinc.
    OR.. a more far out thought. The rings may represent a type of " hard drive". SETI works tirelessly seeking signals from space. They may be looking at the task backward. The information they seek may be " stored " on the " discs".. the rings of Saturn.
     
    At some point in the search for CF and new forms of energy we must begin thinking creation is NO ACCIDENT of evolution hit and miss science.
    . There is a use and purpose for everything. The fact that rings appear around Saturn could mean there is a purpose for them.
     
    Theory of a beginning , a big bang etc. may be leading us astray like the dinasaurs with crude oil.. Creation may not be creation as we attempt to " typecast" it.
    It may be " eternal" with no beginning and no end, only never ending phases. This concept is impossible to grasp because we have " time " burned into our thinking. We may be interpreting the bible creation account incorrectly. It may be the event means the earth, and NOT the entire solar system was created in the six time periods which are assumed to cover some 12-15 billion years in our time measurement system. Interjecting bible scripture into science discussion is necessary because it is an important written record of the past. If we could get past the " religion" part and concentrate on the science part we can study the deep insight of what what was recorded . For example, the book of Job is an absolute masterpiece of physics principles that have weathered the years unchallenged.
     
    Richard
     

     

    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-932284181-1122352163=:60810-- --0-457389137-1122352163=:60810 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02 898pGkgiYoCm6sq27iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9Jp JGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lWxo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy 2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== --0-457389137-1122352163=:60810-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 25 23:58:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6Q6wKmL023358; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:58:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6Q6wHRh023340; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:58:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:58:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050726065759.009d6b7c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:57:59 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Not what they seem Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:16 pm 25/07/2005 -0500, Richard wrote: > Terry, > > Yes , things are not what they seem. This statement > extends to most science. > Way back when I was in school we were taught crude > oil came from dinosaurs and decayed vegetable matter > and this was in the early 1940's. > > I have been posting a few " ringers" . One is that > the sun may be a transceiver. Receiving energy in > a form we do not understand. Mmm...I'll buy that one Richard. A transceiver for the Galactic "Sun" (GS) - the black hole - or whatever - at the centre of our galaxy. Since I see the electric-magnetic cycle (driven by the GS) as analogous to the rain-vapour cycle driven by the sun, the idea of the sun as a step down transformer, so to speak, would fit in very neatly. > This energy could be manifested in an event similar to > an arc welder electrode touching a steel surface. > The sun could be a giant piece of ferrite metal (iron) > with solar flares indicating an imbalance of received > energy... > > > At some point in the search for CF and new forms of energy > we must begin thinking creation is NO ACCIDENT of evolution > hit and miss science. > There is a use and purpose for everything. The fact that > rings appear around Saturn could mean there is a purpose > for them. > > Theory of a beginning , a big bang etc. may be leading us > astray like the dinosaurs with crude oil.. Creation may > not be creation as we attempt to " typecast" it. > It may be " eternal" with no beginning and no end, only > never ending phases. This concept is impossible to grasp > because we have " time " burned into our thinking. We may > be interpreting the bible creation account incorrectly. > It may be the event means the earth, and NOT the entire > solar system was created in the six time periods which are > assumed to cover some 12-15 billion years in our time > measurement system. Interjecting bible scripture into > science discussion is necessary because it is an important > written record of the past. If we could get past the > "religion" part and concentrate on the science part we can > study the deep insight of what was recorded. > For example, the book of Job is an absolute masterpiece of > physics principles that have weathered the years unchallenged. > > Richard Yep - It's not for nothing that theology is called the "Queen of the Sciences" and sets the stage for all human activity not withstanding the fact that modern-day academe would think that notion absurd. If the bible is the word of He who made the heavens and the earth then it would obviously have lots of clues at to the right way to look at scientific phenomena. Rest assured you are in good company thinking along such lines, Richard. If you read the unexpurgated life of England's greatest scientist you will see that he spent far more effort cogitating on things theological than things scientific. One could argue that even in his alchemical studies, he had the right idea, albeit that he was a few hundred years ahead of his time. After all, what are Cold Fusioneers but modern day alchemists intent on turning water into liquid gold. 8-) Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 01:11:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6Q8AuwC013616; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:11:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6Q8ArnD013587; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:10:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:10:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:10:33 +0100 From: "Chambers, Robert (UK)" Subject: RE: A page on the Sagnac effect To: "Stephen A. Lawrence" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6556.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thread-Topic: A page on the Sagnac effect Thread-Index: AcWRuYv0ueSOavxTRk+GUsjKyeJc0w== content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2005 08:10:35.0486 (UTC) FILETIME=[8025B7E0:01C591B9] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6Q89XG8012990 Resent-Message-ID: <8idG1.A.MUD.MAf5CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html You might also be interested in http://www.atomicprecision.com/new/a45thpaper.pdf which describes the Sagnac effect in terms of general, rather than special, relativity. Special relativity is not applicable because it is not concerned with acceleration. For background info on the theory used, see http://www.aias.us Rob ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 05:42:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QCgPE1012222; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:42:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QCgNsP012200; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:42:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:42:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E62F96.9000506 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:41:58 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A page on the Sagnac effect References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chambers, Robert (UK) wrote: >>http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html >> >> > >You might also be interested in > >http://www.atomicprecision.com/new/a45thpaper.pdf > >which describes the Sagnac effect in terms of general, rather than special, relativity. Special relativity is not applicable because it is not concerned with acceleration. > > This is a common misconception, but it's wrong. With "classical" special relativity, such as Einstein laid out in his 1905 Electrodynamics paper, one must explicitly add the "clocks hypothesis", which states that clocks are unaffected by acceleration. Once you've done that, however, you can analyze acceleration with no further problems. (The "clocks hypothesis" has also been experimentally verified, by the way.) In "modern" special relativity, which uses pseudo-Riemannian geometry but restricts it to coordinate systems in which the metric is Minkowski's, the "clocks hypothesis" is already built in and there are no problems at all handling acceleration. In fact, in many (or most) cases of simple accelerated motion it's simplest to analyze the situation by using "flat" coordinates, and if you want to answer certain questions involving simultaneity it's the only way to do it. Gravitation, on the other hand, cannot be handled by special relativity, because it requires the treatment of curvature. In particular, if one were to place a gravitating planet in the middle of the rotating disk, then one would be unable to provide a full solution of the Sagnac effect in that situation using only SR. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 05:58:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QCwFbm017143; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:58:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QCwDQo017118; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:58:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:58:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <2d8507fe-e9d1-4fbd-bab4-cde52e2b565c> Message-ID: <00f001c591e1$9f3336d0$c650ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050726020011.KLPL3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense: Groping the Elephant Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:57:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense > > From: > > > It does make me wonder if there might be at least some similarities between Putoff and Mill's theory, which I gather on the surface are about as opposite to each other as night is to day. > > Yeah, well, "Putoff", aka "Puthoff", is not an MD. And, he might lack some of Randell's insight. Besides, most of what Harold writes is about accepted theorem. But, it could all be wrong. --------------------------------- The non-collapse of the hydrogen electron orbit is a puzzle in conventional QM. Puthoff's postulation of an energy exchange with the "ZPE" is just that, a postulate, without any detailed mechanism visible [unless there is something in the paper]. Mills' orbitsphere model of the electron is far more sophisticated and detailed in its exposition, as can be found on the BLP website. Mills' model follows from Maxwell's equations applying the Haus condition of non-radiation, and it integrates with a theory of audacious scope and depth. I've spent hours in the presence of both Dr. Hal Puthoff and Dr. Randell Mills, but that doesn't prove anything in particular. IMO trying to force ZPE, Casmir, BLP and LENR into the same box by saying any of these is "really" another is quite futile in the present state of our knowledge. All that can reasonably be said is that physics is in a crisis similar to that in the late 1800's when the accepted paradigms were showing their limitations and new phenomena and candidates were emerging. While the Casmir effect is well accepted as manifested in a particular family of experiments, its "explanation" is somewhat mundane. The BLP and LENR effects shake the foundations of current physics and will require a long process of fitting the pieces of what is well known into a new picture. This could take decades. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 06:56:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QDu2pV009807; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:56:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QDtxra009770; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:55:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:55:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QT+TA7beUydUzONHvtbRtkPZG7RWf6dU5WEKHXSJx6+GxeTML4vmp+TVl1mHszwZtLnS02dx93Z8N8leyvqyqpGaD9t7Ea0o/oz3ooX6yQ+7zmWjN4kKuFFryx3yHhCOZwZH68lDJxvPSY1OCnbSO9S7F/7w6BHhcfSKij0Q+0M= ; Message-ID: <20050726135537.29100.qmail web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:55:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: The radiating electron and Casimir To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Suppose that the Casimir Force is caused by something other than the fluctuations of the ZPE field. At atomic distances where the Casimir comes into play the difference between the position of an electron at either side of it's orbit is a considerable portion of the distance between said electron and another atom. This means that an atom, rather than being electrically neutral would appear to have an oscilating charge based on the orbit of the electron. This is simplest to visualize with a hydrogen atom (1 electron, 1 proton) but can be extended to more complicated systems. If 2 nearby atoms where to have their electron orbits (and charge oscilations) synched then they would experience an electrostatic attraction or repulsion. This would drop off considerably with distance as the radius of the electron orbit becomes a smaller component in the distances involved. The energy which the electron radiates in this manner is continually replenished by the energy radiating from every other electron in the universe, it's a zero-sum closed system. I personally think that electrons don't actually travel in regular circular orbits, but rather in either high ellipticals or even stranger rosettes passing near (or through) the origin. I see the atom as not unlike a Farnsworth Fusor, with the nucleus as the grid. Honestly, how else can you explain the unusual shapes of electron orbitals? (http://www.orbitals.com/orb/) Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 07:09:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QE8ipF015711; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:08:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QE8gOq015680; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:08:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:08:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vi84$12rcnck mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,143,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1169579412:sNHT186516420" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense: Groping the Elephant Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:08:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" ... > The non-collapse of the hydrogen electron orbit is a puzzle in conventional > QM. Puthoff's postulation of an energy exchange with the "ZPE" is just that, > a postulate, without any detailed mechanism visible [unless there is > something in the paper]. Mills' orbitsphere model of the electron is far > more sophisticated and detailed in its exposition, as can be found on the > BLP website. Mills' model follows from Maxwell's equations applying the Haus > condition of non-radiation, and it integrates with a theory of audacious > scope and depth. > > I've spent hours in the presence of both Dr. Hal Puthoff and Dr. Randell > Mills, but that doesn't prove anything in particular. IMO trying to force > ZPE, Casmir, BLP and LENR into the same box by saying any of these is > "really" another is quite futile in the present state of our knowledge. All > that can reasonably be said is that physics is in a crisis similar to that > in the late 1800's when the accepted paradigms were showing their > limitations and new phenomena and candidates were emerging. While the Casmir > effect is well accepted as manifested in a particular family of experiments, > its "explanation" is somewhat mundane. The BLP and LENR effects shake the > foundations of current physics and will require a long process of fitting > the pieces of what is well known into a new picture. This could take > decades. > > Mike Carrell > Hi Mike, You present a reasonably satisfying summary in regards to an issue that seems to be causing a considerable ruckus in the chicken coup these days. I would imagine that one of the most difficult aspects pertaining to the on-going theoretical crises is that those who tow the party line are probably the least willing to entertain the notion that there might actually be something fundamentally wrong with the current paradigms. It would seem to many observers (particularly within this group) that their job has degenerated, more or less, to the task of killing the fox before he can get any more of their prized chickens. I suspect there are too many foxes, however, and the racket is probably attracting more of the predators, particularly graduate students. The final outcome is inevitable. To state that you've spent hours in the presence of both Put-H-off (Is that better, Terry?) and Mills but also acknowledge that it didn't really resolve most of your questions is indeed revealing of the complexity of the issues involved and the lengthy task at hand. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 08:02:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QF21rp017663; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:02:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QF1wsH017637; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:01:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:01:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=b5GLU/vZfVynbynPM7M4qBjli6kysmZoKOWU3r7TjYwTyEoWUsxknM3dbYowM1m1U0N+/uPxQJcojfVDBwVdgpvRK7smnZ40qEwz03Mw4+jv5qkbqD/JnjDKf1/f2N49umfoZz3VF5Gp+9aesWbXlGuEyeHnNfKinAuDZUigScI= ; Message-ID: <20050726150129.18655.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:01:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense: Groping the Elephant To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <48vi84$12rcnck mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1987050722-1122390089=:17784" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1987050722-1122390089=:17784 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steven, Show some respect for your elders, at least the ones that deserve it. Chris orionworks charter.net wrote: > From: "Mike Carrell" ... > The non-collapse of the hydrogen electron orbit is a puzzle in conventional > QM. Puthoff's postulation of an energy exchange with the "ZPE" is just that, > a postulate, without any detailed mechanism visible [unless there is > something in the paper]. Mills' orbitsphere model of the electron is far > more sophisticated and detailed in its exposition, as can be found on the > BLP website. Mills' model follows from Maxwell's equations applying the Haus > condition of non-radiation, and it integrates with a theory of audacious > scope and depth. > > I've spent hours in the presence of both Dr. Hal Puthoff and Dr. Randell > Mills, but that doesn't prove anything in particular. IMO trying to force > ZPE, Casmir, BLP and LENR into the same box by saying any of these is > "really" another is quite futile in the present state of our knowledge. All > that can reasonably be said is that physics is in a crisis similar to that > in the late 1800's when the accepted paradigms were showing their > limitations and new phenomena and candidates were emerging. While the Casmir > effect is well accepted as manifested in a particular family of experiments, > its "explanation" is somewhat mundane. The BLP and LENR effects shake the > foundations of current physics and will require a long process of fitting > the pieces of what is well known into a new picture. This could take > decades. > > Mike Carrell > Hi Mike, You present a reasonably satisfying summary in regards to an issue that seems to be causing a considerable ruckus in the chicken coup these days. I would imagine that one of the most difficult aspects pertaining to the on-going theoretical crises is that those who tow the party line are probably the least willing to entertain the notion that there might actually be something fundamentally wrong with the current paradigms. It would seem to many observers (particularly within this group) that their job has degenerated, more or less, to the task of killing the fox before he can get any more of their prized chickens. I suspect there are too many foxes, however, and the racket is probably attracting more of the predators, particularly graduate students. The final outcome is inevitable. To state that you've spent hours in the presence of both Put-H-off (Is that better, Terry?) and Mills but also acknowledge that it didn't really resolve most of your questions is indeed revealing of the complexity of the issues involved and the lengthy task at hand. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1987050722-1122390089=:17784 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Steven,
     
    Show some respect for your elders, at least the ones that deserve it.
     
    Chris

    orionworks charter.net wrote:
    > From: "Mike Carrell"
    ...
    > The non-collapse of the hydrogen electron orbit is a puzzle in conventional
    > QM. Puthoff's postulation of an energy exchange with the "ZPE" is just that,
    > a postulate, without any detailed mechanism visible [unless there is
    > something in the paper]. Mills' orbitsphere model of the electron is far
    > more sophisticated and detailed in its exposition, as can be found on the
    > BLP website. Mills' model follows from Maxwell's equations applying the Haus
    > condition of non-radiation, and it integrates with a theory of audacious
    > scope and depth.
    >
    > I've spent hours in the presence of both Dr. Hal Puthoff and Dr. Randell
    > Mills, but that doesn't prove anything in particular. IMO trying to force
    > ZPE, Casmir, BLP and LENR into the same box by saying any of these is
    > "really" another is quite futile in the present state of our knowledge. All
    > that can reasonably be said is that physics is in a crisis similar to that
    > in the late 1800's when the accepted paradigms were showing their
    > limitations and new phenomena and candidates were emerging. While the Casmir
    > effect is well accepted as manifested in a particular family of experiments,
    > its "explanation" is somewhat mundane. The BLP and LENR effects shake the
    > foundations of current physics and will require a long process of fitting
    > the pieces of what is well known into a new picture. This could take
    > decades.
    >
    > Mike Carrell
    >

    Hi Mike,

    You present a reasonably satisfying summary in regards to an issue that seems to be causing a considerable ruckus in the chicken coup these days. I would imagine that one of the most difficult aspects pertaining to the on-going theoretical crises is that those who tow the party line are probably the least willing to entertain the notion that there might actually be something fundamentally wrong with the current paradigms. It would seem to many observers (particularly within this group) that their job has degenerated, more or less, to the task of killing the fox before he can get any more of their prized chickens.

    I suspect there are too many foxes, however, and the racket is probably attracting more of the predators, particularly graduate students. The final outcome is inevitable.

    To state that you've spent hours in the presence of both Put-H-off (Is that better, Terry?) and Mills but also acknowledge that it didn't really resolve most of your questions is indeed revealing of the complexity of the issues involved and the lengthy task at hand.

    Regards,
    Steven Vincent Johnson
    www.OrionWorks.com

    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1987050722-1122390089=:17784-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 08:19:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QFIsvB024370; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:19:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QFIquu024326; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:18:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:18:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726111110.04480290 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:18:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Insipid New York Times editorial Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The New York Times has an editorial today about global warming. It begins: "A Few Degrees By any measure, this has already been a summer of extremes. The brutality of the record-setting heat that lay over the desert Southwest for the past two weeks may have broken at last, but it has not really dissipated. . . . Life is barely tolerable in Phoenix during an ordinary summer, when the monsoons arrive on schedule. . . ." I did not know they had monsoons in Phoenix, Arizona. Anyway, the editorial ends: "We survive at such high temperatures only with huge expenditures of energy. Those who cannot afford the energy run the risk of death." To which I would respond: "Yo! Mr. Times! That would be all of us. Our whole civilization. And it is not a 'risk.' Death is inevitable unless we develop radically new sources of energy." Anyway, the New York Times will never print a letter from me, but I asked Ed Storms and some others to send a brief message. Here is a message I sent to some newspaper reporters yesterday: The on-line German magazine Telepolis published an article today advocating a crash program to develop cold fusion to combat global warming. This is what your editorial should have said. See: "Time to act! The world needs an Apollo-type program for cold fusion": English version: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20585/1.html German version: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20562/1.html . . . Haiko's article is a huge contrast to the New York Times, isn't it? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 08:42:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QFfu30001568; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:42:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QFfsAs001532; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:41:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:41:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050726154135.009caa14 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:41:35 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense: Groping the Elephant Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:08 am 26/07/2005 -0400, Steven wrote: >Hi Mike, > > You present a reasonably satisfying summary in regards > to an issue that seems to be causing a considerable > ruckus in the chicken coup these days. I would imagine > that one of the most difficult aspects pertaining to the > on-going theoretical crises is that those who > tow the party line ... Or even potatoe the party line (with apologies to Dan Quayle) ROTFL But, joking aside, I love the fox and chickens analogy. Now that England is about to abolish fox hunting Reynard is going to be slaughtering even more chickens. ================================================================= Reynard the Fox, celebrated hero of the medieval beast epics, works predominantly in verse which became increasingly popular after c.1150. They are found chiefly in Latin, French, Low German, Dutch, High German, and English. Most of the stories reflect in biting satire the peasant's criticism and contempt for the upper classes. An episode at once outstanding and typical is the funeral of Reynard, with the pious laments of his late enemies and his devastating resurrection from the grave. ================================================================= FG From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 09:07:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QG73qI012387; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:07:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QG70qi012348; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:07:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:07:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vir2$186tg2v mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,144,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1349435487:sNHT14760312" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: My recent spelling of Hal Puthoff's name Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:06:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To whom it may concern. I've gotten the impression that several individuals have apparently felt that I have shown disrespect toward Hal Puthoff, presumably because I had misspelled his name as "Putoff" instead of as "Puthoff." This was spelling mistake site on my part, pure and simple. It was not intentional. FWIW, I suffer a form for random dyslexia that occasionally ravages my prose to the point of causing occasional embarrassment at times when I can least afford it. Perhaps it's indirectly related to the reason that I can be a decent artist at times. As for those who continue to feel offended. Get over it. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 09:17:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QGH6rs017480; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:17:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QGH4qY017451; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:17:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:17:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c591fd$62f5da80$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <48vir2$186tg2v mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: My recent spelling .... Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:16:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven, > FWIW, I suffer a form for random dyslexia that occasionally > ravages my prose to the point of causing occasional > embarrassment at times when I can least afford it I represence those sin-laments a hunert-n-fifty precence, sense my-bad-lexia is non-random... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 09:20:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QGJsex018753; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:20:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QGJqvm018719; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:19:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:19:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <48vheq$12n4ovr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <48vheq$12n4ovr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:19:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Grimer >> >> I've been re-reading one of Puthoff's old papers >> from 1986, which was recenly referred to on Vortex, > > viz, > > >Putoff's theory, on the surface, possesses an elegant symmetry to >it, not that I'm really in a position to challenge it. There >remains, however, a nagging question that gnaws at me. > >According to my own provincial understanding of QM theory it's >considered somewhat of an embarrassment that the electron doesn't >seem to collapse into the nucleus of the hydrogen atom - due to the >fact that it should be emanating energy - due to the fact that it is >costantly 'accelerating' around the hydrogen nucleus. Clearly, this >ain't happening! If it did the entire universe would collapse. What I mean is that the electrons would collapse into the nucleus, and then they would fall together, ect, ect. > >Now, according to Putoff's model, ZPE fluctuations, more or less, >instantaneously re-supply the departing energy that according to QM >should be emanating from the orbiting electron. IOW, ZPE >fluctuations conveniently prevent the orbiting electron from >collapsing into the nucleus, which incidentally saves the universe >as a secondary benefit. Exactly > >Never the less there remains, in my view, a HUGE unsolved mystery: Yah, if there's all that energy out there, why can't we cohere it? > >If energy is being "emitted" only to be re-supplied by ZPE >fluctuation that STILL doesn't explain WHAT HAPPENED to the original >energy emitted from the electron. Some of Hal's later papers speculate about the ZPE powering things like Browian Motion. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 09:40:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QGdiN0027757; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:39:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QGdhXS027734; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:39:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:39:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c59200$93043930$16027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:39:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C591D6.A9AC5700"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C591D6.A9AC5700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C591D6.A9AC5700" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C591D6.A9AC5700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMike Carroll wrote.. >I've spent hours in the presence of both Dr. Hal Puthoff and Dr. = Randell Mills, but that doesn't prove anything in particular. IMO trying to = force ZPE, Casmir, BLP and LENR into the same box by saying any of these is "really" another is quite futile in the present state of our knowledge. = All that can reasonably be said is that physics is in a crisis similar to = that in the late 1800's when the accepted paradigms were showing their limitations and new phenomena and candidates were emerging. While the = Casmir effect is well accepted as manifested in a particular family of = experiments, its "explanation" is somewhat mundane. The BLP and LENR effects shake = the foundations of current physics and will require a long process of = fitting the pieces of what is well known into a new picture. This could take decades. Mike,=20 Interesting observations. Sono refers to sound. Some time back I was = corrected by a physicist by my stating that sound started the process. = He was emphatic in his specific argument that sound does not travel in a = vacuum. My response was that light travels in a vacuum and light is a = mere manifestation of sound..not the reverse. Sonochemistry, sonofusion = and sonoluminescence have one thing in common .. sound. Sound can = produce light but sound does not eminate from light by nature. Another clue to the mystery of CF. We may be looking directly at the = projection screen instead of strolling behind the curtain to watch what = levers the magician is pulling. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C591D6.A9AC5700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Mike Carroll wrote..

    >I've spent hours in the presence of both Dr. Hal Puthoff and Dr.=20 Randell
    Mills, but that doesn't prove anything in particular. IMO = trying to=20 force
    ZPE, Casmir, BLP and LENR into the same box by saying any of = these=20 is
    "really" another is quite futile in the present state of our = knowledge.=20 All
    that can reasonably be said is that physics is in  a crisis = similar=20 to that
    in the late 1800's when the accepted paradigms were showing=20 their
    limitations and new phenomena and candidates were emerging. = While the=20 Casmir
    effect is well accepted as manifested in a particular family = of=20 experiments,
    its "explanation" is somewhat mundane. The BLP and LENR = effects=20 shake the
    foundations of current physics and will require a long = process of=20 fitting
    the pieces of what is well known into a new picture. This = could=20 take
    decades.

     Mike,

    Interesting observations.   Sono refers to sound. Some time = back  I was corrected by a physicist by my stating that sound = started the=20 process. He was emphatic in his specific argument that sound does not = travel in=20 a vacuum. My response was that light travels in a vacuum and light is a = mere=20 manifestation of sound..not the reverse. Sonochemistry, sonofusion and=20 sonoluminescence have one thing in common .. sound. Sound can produce = light but=20 sound does not eminate from light by nature.

     Another clue to the mystery of CF. We may be looking directly = at=20 the projection screen instead of strolling behind the = curtain  to=20 watch what levers the magician is pulling.

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C591D6.A9AC5700-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C591D6.A9AC5700 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c59200$927abde0$16027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C591D6.A9AC5700-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 10:04:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QH3U44007149; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:03:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QH3Tra007137; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:03:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:03:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:04:11 +0100 From: "Chambers, Robert (UK)" Subject: RE: A page on the Sagnac effect To: "Stephen A. Lawrence" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6556.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thread-Topic: A page on the Sagnac effect Thread-Index: AcWSBBevVzg1KM3jQVGfEv8TzfsZlg== content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2005 17:04:11.0509 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B2F2250:01C59204] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6QH37vm006946 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This is a common misconception, but it's wrong. > > With "classical" special relativity, such as Einstein laid out in his > 1905 Electrodynamics paper, one must explicitly add the "clocks > hypothesis", which states that clocks are unaffected by > acceleration. > Once you've done that, however, you can analyze acceleration with no > further problems. (The "clocks hypothesis" has also been > experimentally > verified, by the way.) To clarify a little (I'm not an expert, I've merely followed Dr Evans' reasoning on this), his paper states "The rotational motion implies the use of general relativity...the latter theory [SR] does not deal with the accelerations automatically introduced by *rotation*" (emphasis mine). So it appears that having a theory which can adequately cope with *rotational* acceleration (not just linear) is the important thing. Dr Evans believes that GR satisfies this condition. I found this on the clock hypothesis: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#5.%20Twin%20paradox Rob ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 10:07:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QH77Wb008651; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:07:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QH74fY008627; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:07:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:07:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:07:53 +0100 From: "Chambers, Robert (UK)" Subject: RE: A page on the Sagnac effect To: "Stephen A. Lawrence" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6556.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thread-Topic: A page on the Sagnac effect Thread-Index: AcWSBJxXszFCthQvQISSe936fxkdHQ== content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2005 17:07:54.0271 (UTC) FILETIME=[8FF5EAF0:01C59204] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6QH6jGU008477 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > (The "clocks hypothesis" has also been > experimentally > verified, by the way.) Slight glitch in the previous email - sorry! To continue... I found this on the clock hypothesis: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#5.%20Twin%20paradox "The clock hypothesis states that the tick rate of a clock when measured in an inertial frame depends only upon its velocity relative to that frame, and is independent of its acceleration or higher derivatives." Are we not dealing with an accelerated frame, rather than an inertial one, in the Sagnac effect? Rob ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 10:37:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QHbDZB021572; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:37:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QHbA7A021529; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:37:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:37:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1eYo32IrlKlpEbBb6fqfDu5hU2F9kE70NXcMTmSUgpDC5i+6dKg6zjxLVZe/k7yaP6PYJw4sAiLltWA9vfJF7A1GXplM6aaYmolgLMCF2n/YFDr7Bp9Pe2+bVOW6dvikmit1RQXnjgvd+87mVwHcVVz6NT077peoqtWujXZ/mfQ= ; Message-ID: <20050726173638.90817.qmail web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:36:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726111110.04480290 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ya know, it ain't the heat that kills ya... And it ain't the humidity either. It's dehydration! The current heatwave in arizona has pushed temps up to 115 farenheit. It hit 121 here in Kansas back in 1936, Colorado had 118 back in 1888! (Record high temperatures courtesy of Google) Yes, the world is getting warmer in general, but the reason people die in heat waves is that they don't know to drink water. I spent a couple summers as a camp counselor in SE Kansas in the late 90's, without any form of AC, (we lived in canvas army tents which were much hotter than the outside air. It routinely hit 110 in the shade during the afternoon. Heat Stroke and Heat Exhaustion were expected and when they did show up the med trailer was cooled. The point is that people have survived (and survive everyday) conditions similar to the ones which are decried as heat waves and the only reason people die in them is that they are unprepared. It has very little to do with needing more efficient AC systems. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > The New York Times has an editorial today about > global warming. It begins: > > "A Few Degrees > > By any measure, this has already been a summer of > extremes. The brutality > of the record-setting heat that lay over the desert > Southwest for the past > two weeks may have broken at last, but it has not > really dissipated. . . > . Life is barely tolerable in Phoenix during an > ordinary summer, when the > monsoons arrive on schedule. . . ." > > I did not know they had monsoons in Phoenix, > Arizona. > > Anyway, the editorial ends: "We survive at such high > temperatures only with > huge expenditures of energy. Those who cannot afford > the energy run the > risk of death." To which I would respond: "Yo! Mr. > Times! That would be all > of us. Our whole civilization. And it is not a > 'risk.' Death is inevitable > unless we develop radically new sources of energy." > > Anyway, the New York Times will never print a letter > from me, but I asked > Ed Storms and some others to send a brief message. > > > Here is a message I sent to some newspaper reporters > yesterday: > > > The on-line German magazine Telepolis published an > article today advocating > a crash program to develop cold fusion to combat > global warming. This is > what your editorial should have said. See: "Time to > act! The world needs an > Apollo-type program for cold fusion": > > English version: > http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20585/1.html > > German version: > http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20562/1.html > > . . . > > > Haiko's article is a huge contrast to the New York > Times, isn't it? > > - Jed > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 12:13:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QJCkCC000792; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:13:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QJCgq9000720; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:12:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:12:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E68B5D.7000108 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:13:33 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial References: <20050726173638.90817.qmail web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050726173638.90817.qmail web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All very true, Merlyn. However, the main use of energy in the future will be pumping water out of regions overwhelmed by the rising ocean and removing salt from ocean water so that low lands can be flushed free of salt. The air conditioning load will be handled by local solar collectors and better design. Many coastal cities will have to be moved, which will take considerable energy. Of course, this will happen after many of the oil producing regions and ports have been rendered useless. That is why the editorial in the NYT is so trivial. Being too warm will be the least of our worries. Ed Merlyn wrote: > Ya know, it ain't the heat that kills ya... > And it ain't the humidity either. > > It's dehydration! > > The current heatwave in arizona has pushed temps up to > 115 farenheit. It hit 121 here in Kansas back in > 1936, Colorado had 118 back in 1888! (Record high > temperatures courtesy of Google) > > Yes, the world is getting warmer in general, but the > reason people die in heat waves is that they don't > know to drink water. > > I spent a couple summers as a camp counselor in SE > Kansas in the late 90's, without any form of AC, (we > lived in canvas army tents which were much hotter than > the outside air. It routinely hit 110 in the shade > during the afternoon. Heat Stroke and Heat Exhaustion > were expected and when they did show up the med > trailer was cooled. > > The point is that people have survived (and survive > everyday) conditions similar to the ones which are > decried as heat waves and the only reason people die > in them is that they are unprepared. It has very > little to do with needing more efficient AC systems. > > --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > > >>The New York Times has an editorial today about >>global warming. It begins: >> >>"A Few Degrees >> >>By any measure, this has already been a summer of >>extremes. The brutality >>of the record-setting heat that lay over the desert >>Southwest for the past >>two weeks may have broken at last, but it has not >>really dissipated. . . >>. Life is barely tolerable in Phoenix during an >>ordinary summer, when the >>monsoons arrive on schedule. . . ." >> >>I did not know they had monsoons in Phoenix, >>Arizona. >> >>Anyway, the editorial ends: "We survive at such high >>temperatures only with >>huge expenditures of energy. Those who cannot afford >>the energy run the >>risk of death." To which I would respond: "Yo! Mr. >>Times! That would be all >>of us. Our whole civilization. And it is not a >>'risk.' Death is inevitable >>unless we develop radically new sources of energy." >> >>Anyway, the New York Times will never print a letter >>from me, but I asked >>Ed Storms and some others to send a brief message. >> >> >>Here is a message I sent to some newspaper reporters >>yesterday: >> >> >>The on-line German magazine Telepolis published an >>article today advocating >>a crash program to develop cold fusion to combat >>global warming. This is >>what your editorial should have said. See: "Time to >>act! The world needs an >>Apollo-type program for cold fusion": >> >>English version: >>http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20585/1.html >> >>German version: >>http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20562/1.html >> >>. . . >> >> >>Haiko's article is a huge contrast to the New York >>Times, isn't it? >> >>- Jed >> >> >> > > > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > > > ____________________________________________________ > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 13:03:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QK2isf020836; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:03:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QK2eGX020799; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:02:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:02:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.39.157] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: My recent spelling of Hal Puthoff's name Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:02:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050726200215.SEFN24175.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > This was spelling mistake site on my part, pure and simple. > > It was not intentional. Even if it was, it was no worse than my calling him a former Xenunian. Hal is oft maligned because of his colorful research but he seems to take it well. He certainly does need me to defend him. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 13:05:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QK5QDx021744; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:05:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QK5Ove021718; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:05:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:05:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.39.157] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Are Ice Ages a Galactic Event? Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:05:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050726200502.SFVF24175.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <4902tD.A.RTF.Eep5CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is right up there with black hole capacitors and there's that darned GSU again: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/07/25/MNGCIDSL4R1.DTL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 13:38:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QKbVa8003528; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:37:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QKbShq003510; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:37:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:37:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.39.157] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: My recent spelling of Hal Puthoff's name Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:37:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050726203704.QCQP14543.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > Hal is oft maligned because of his colorful research but he seems to take it well. He certainly does need me to defend him. Not. "One should always wear matching Freudian bra and panties with the Freudian slip." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 13:46:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QKja3v007780; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:45:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QKjYsC007764; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:45:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:45:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E6A0D4.9080607 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:45:08 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A page on the Sagnac effect References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chambers, Robert (UK) wrote: >>(The "clocks hypothesis" has also been >>experimentally >>verified, by the way.) >> >> > >Slight glitch in the previous email - sorry! > >To continue... > >I found this on the clock hypothesis: >http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#5.%20Twin%20paradox >"The clock hypothesis states that the tick rate of a clock when measured in an inertial frame depends only upon its velocity relative to that frame, and is independent of its acceleration or higher derivatives." > > Sounds right to me. >Are we not dealing with an accelerated frame, rather than an inertial one, in the Sagnac effect? > > Not necessarily. And here's the point of confusion, I think. A "frame of reference" corresponds to a particular choice of coordinate systems. In special relativity, we're constrained to use only "flat" coordinates: orthonormal coordinate systems in which the metric is the usual one, where lengths are measured as we expect, the "proper length" of an object which is stationary relative to those coordinates is just what we get using a ruler, time is measured by stationary clocks, all stationary clocks can be synchronized, and the speed of light in vacuum is exactly c. However, we can examine objects which are moving or even accelerating relative to the coordinate system we have chosen. That's perfectly possible in special relativity. The Sagnac effect can be predicted perfectly well from the "stationary" frame of reference of the laboratory, in which we examine the fiber optic ring, which is an accelerating object. Since we know the velocity of each point on the ring at each moment, we can determine gamma for that location, we can find dt/d(tau), and we can predict how fast time will pass for someone riding on the ring. And we can use the composition of velocities formula to determine how fast a signal will travel in the lab frame, if we know how fast an observer on the ring sees it go as it passes through an infinitesimal neighborhood around that observer. If you want to run the analysis in the frame of reference of the rotating disk, however, then you have a problem. There is no "Lorentzian" coordinate system in in which the disk is stationary; the disk's frame of reference is not inertial. So, you can't do that in special relativity; you need to go the general route. However, what we _can_ do is look at an inertial frame which happens to be "momentarily co-moving" with an observer who is riding on the ring. That frame of reference is Lorentzian, and it can be treated with the techniques of SR. And for one instant in time, in the neighborhood of the observer on the ring, that frame of reference will behave identically with what the observer on the ring sees (except for the acceleration, which doesn't affect clocks or small distances). Using that approach, we can determine things like how fast proper time elapses for the signal as it traverses the ring, without the necessity of integrating d(tau)/dt in the laboratory frame. In conclusion, one can answer many interesting questions about accelerating bodies without ever using anything except "flat-space" coordinates. What you can't do is produce a single complete solution in the frame of reference of an accelerating observer, because that requires non-flat coordinates. You also can't handle any problem that involves gravity this way, because in the presence of gravity there is no global Lorentz frame of reference. As a general rule, if a problem can be handled with flat coordinates, it's easier to understand the result if one does it that way. Curved coordinates invariably introduce a lot of extra hair. One of the primary rules of general relativity is "All coordinate systems are equally valid", but a second rule is "Some coordinate systems are a whole lot easier to work with than others." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 13:51:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QKoTEZ010636; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:50:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QKoMUJ010514; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:50:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:50:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E6A1ED.2030701 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:49:49 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A page on the Sagnac effect References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chambers, Robert (UK) wrote: >>This is a common misconception, but it's wrong. >> >>With "classical" special relativity, such as Einstein laid out in his >>1905 Electrodynamics paper, one must explicitly add the "clocks >>hypothesis", which states that clocks are unaffected by >>acceleration. >>Once you've done that, however, you can analyze acceleration with no >>further problems. (The "clocks hypothesis" has also been >>experimentally >>verified, by the way.) >> >> > >To clarify a little (I'm not an expert, I've merely followed Dr Evans' reasoning on this), his paper states "The rotational motion implies the use of general relativity...the latter theory [SR] does not deal with the accelerations automatically introduced by *rotation*" (emphasis mine). So it appears that having a theory which can adequately cope with *rotational* acceleration (not just linear) is the important thing. > There's no difference, really; acceleration's acceleration. See previous email -- either sort of acceleration can be dealt with in SR, but only by choosing an inertial coordinate system in which to analyze the behavior of the accelerating object. And neither sort can be dealt with _completely_ by using SR alone. In particular, a uniformly rotating disk which is made arbitrarily large will be found to exceed C at a sufficiently large diameter, and a uniformly accelerating object which is moving linearly will be found to have an event horizon somewhere if you extend it far enough "to the back" (assuming it's accelerating toward the "front"). These are phenomena which SR doesn't handle at all well. > Dr Evans believes that GR satisfies this condition. > >I found this on the clock hypothesis: >http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#5.%20Twin%20paradox >Rob > >******************************************************************** >This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >distribute its contents to any other person. >******************************************************************** > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 13:54:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QKrq0o013268; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:54:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QKrp8S013250; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:53:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:53:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vje6$172robo mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,144,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1311629688:sNHT21376784" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: My recent spelling of Hal Puthoff's name Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:53:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2JPcnC.A.-OD.eLq5CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > Hal is oft maligned because of his colorful research > > but he seems to take it well. He certainly does need > > me to defend him. > > Not. You might find it amusing to know that my dyslexia, once again, kicked in at the appropriate moment and inserted the "not" word on your behalf. It wasn't until about the third time I read it (I often have to read sentences several times in a row) that it dawned on me what was actually written. Now that I think about it, I like the way it was originally written! ;-) > "One should always wear matching Freudian bra > and panties with the Freudian slip." > We have a very nice Marshall Fields clothing store in the neighborhood that can fulfill all of one's basic needs in this area. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 14:18:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QLI3Wi025520; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:18:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6QLI1aW025503; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:18:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:18:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726171505.04476010 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:17:36 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Pleasant dreams from the International Association of Nanotechnology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is part of an FAQ recently mailed to me by the International Association of Nanotechnology To: Subject: PBS Science Now on H2 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:34:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050727013409.URIJ14543.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know if many Vorts caught the show; but, the tennis court demonstration of a fuel cell operation was hilarious. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3210/01.html The "clickable car" on the web page is a Honda 2005 FCX, the company's second generation fuel cell vehicle. One was recently given to a California family thanks to the Governator's installation of methane-based H2 fueling stations: http://world.honda.com/news/2005/4050629_1.html BTW, the cost to Honda for the FCX is about $1M (US). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jul 26 19:12:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6R2BUxG017286; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:11:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6R2BSI0017259; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:11:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:11:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.154.39.157] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Pleasant dreams from the International Association of Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:11:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050727021105.VGIE14543.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > 4. Is 'Nano Nuclear Weapon' a potential threat to our civilization? Yes. I believe the term is "ecophagy": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo Creighton's "Prey" is somewhat entertaining. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 02:18:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6R9I3si014763; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:18:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6R9HxH0014700; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:17:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:17:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=hg0rtI05vLF8uW6TFEWIMaoVdedGtjjjmQKvrw+migqA3la5dipAh2RzmoUyIvwcY6sDkFb+GOvcxN5Q+CGPCg3Ut8w2GYhYzNebji6dCYB+Tc4RdJiBtMooqUIQgkn5qUkuzVf8J8HfqfzwupYCAa/nCvlNwFBZfrGsVmi/cMQ= Message-ID: <3576537105072702176d2a46f4 mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:17:16 +0200 From: David Jonsson Reply-To: David Jonsson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6R9HcWw014493 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi I wonder if ZPE can be involved in the distribution of thermal motion of low density plasmas. These distributions are found to be of Maxwellian type even when collisions are too few to maintain the distribution. This is called the Langmuir paradox. I wonder if ZPE, or any other radiation, can be the cause for upholding Mawell distribution in lack of collisions. (There aren't many other forces involved, except quantum phenomena, than electromagnetic.) I know this could take months to investigate but I am just interested in a hint to a solution. David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 04:38:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RBbvMc030494; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:38:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RBbdL6030375; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:37:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:37:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050727113707.00957e1c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:37:07 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:17 am 27/07/2005 +0200, you wrote: >Hi > >I wonder if ZPE can be involved in the distribution of thermal motion >of low density plasmas. These distributions are found to be of >Maxwellian type even when collisions are too few to maintain the >distribution. This is called the Langmuir paradox. > >I wonder if ZPE, or any other radiation, can be the cause for >upholding Maxwell distribution in lack of collisions. (There aren't >many other forces involved, except quantum phenomena, than >electromagnetic.) > >I know this could take months to investigate but I am just interested >in a hint to a solution. > >David Mmm....Interesting 8-) Sounds to me as though the distributions are being maintained by ZPE Brownian type motion. If so, it rather argues in favour of a particulate nature for the Beta-atmosphere. Which means that there are collisions which we fail to recognise since we don't believe in the existence of neutral mass particles like the materon. Perhaps people will come the same conclusion as many of Brown's contemporaries and believe that particles of a low density plasma are alive, eh! 8^) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 05:57:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RCupQ9026660; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:57:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RCumea026620; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:56:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:56:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=f5f8g/oKHqV8pG3AfN8Xlh+z5KqCTFpjiFgnIuB/DsrfF+CB3dH/GZOSGKzBogBWfWBdd6+DDu/TBGRmPKfBZbhQp4hApzknVFcz5Q/29PcY/xAnZ3lT9CeoAFbmqx023D9IFpfw/2ExNtQg+Q5p+fxNsJOVih9pDE9WsRErous= ; Message-ID: <20050727125625.84924.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:56:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050727113707.00957e1c pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Contemplating collisions with Neutral or Negative Mass particles boggles the mind. How would a particle with Neutral mass affect momentum? --- Grimer wrote: > At 11:17 am 27/07/2005 +0200, you wrote: > >Hi > > > >I wonder if ZPE can be involved in the distribution > of thermal motion > >of low density plasmas. These distributions are > found to be of > >Maxwellian type even when collisions are too few to > maintain the > >distribution. This is called the Langmuir paradox. > > > >I wonder if ZPE, or any other radiation, can be the > cause for > >upholding Maxwell distribution in lack of > collisions. (There aren't > >many other forces involved, except quantum > phenomena, than > >electromagnetic.) > > > >I know this could take months to investigate but I > am just interested > >in a hint to a solution. > > > >David > > > Mmm....Interesting 8-) > > Sounds to me as though the distributions are > being maintained by ZPE Brownian type motion. > If so, it rather argues in favour of a > particulate nature for the Beta-atmosphere. > > Which means that there are collisions which > we fail to recognise since we don't believe > in the existence of neutral mass particles > like the materon. > > Perhaps people will come the same conclusion > as many of Brown's contemporaries and believe > that particles of a low density plasma are > alive, eh! 8^) > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 07:55:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6REswlK009480; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:55:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6REstlF009430; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:54:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:54:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c592bb$110ecf10$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050727125625.84924.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:54:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C59280.6372E330" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C59280.6372E330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Merlyn" > Contemplating collisions with Neutral or Negative Mass > particles boggles the mind. Not if you accept the argument and mathematics of Randall Mills, and = others, that the electron itself is a negative-mass particle -=20 ....not to be confused with Dirac's negative-energy electron - nor to be = confused with the ant-particle, the positron. BTW does anyone know = off-hand if Mills' positron is also negative mass? Langmuir's paradox - the broader version - of unexpectedly fast = electrons showing up in any low energy plasma (not just Hg) is probably = a *sound* related phenomenon (Alfven wave) in which the sound (kinetic) = component accelerates the electrons to a surprising energy, well beyond = normal kinetics. One of the reasons why the Alfven wave has been = suspected to be involved in OU.=20 Below is a site that you can't access without subscription, but all of = the information mentioned in the abstract is available online elsewhere. = It is almost unbelievable that the author did not mention Alfven waves = in the abstract: "Wave-Particle-Electric Field Synergetic Auroral Electron Acceleration" = Altair Souza de Assis Universidade Federal Fluminense, Caixa, Brazil=20 Abstract We discuss afresh the problem of the auroral electron = acceleration based on the controversy reports of Bryant, D. A. et al.: = 1992, Phys. Rev. Lett. 68, 37, and Borovsky, J.: 1992, Phys. Rev. Lett. = 69, 1054, related to which mechanism is more tenable to accelerate = auroral electrons: dc electric field generated somehow in aurora or = wave-particle interaction due to auroral wave turbulence? Here, we show = that both mechanisms are important, and what is most likely to happen in = aurora is that the turbulence and the dc electric field structure will = assist each other so as to synergetically accelerate those electrons. http://www.springerlink.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=3D2628d84b06f4= 43769427e7998abd9445&referrer=3Dparent&backto=3Dissue,34,53;journal,18,65= ;linkingpublicationresults,1:102996,1 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C59280.6372E330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Merlyn"
    > Contemplating collisions with = Neutral or=20 Negative Mass
    > particles boggles the mind.
     
    Not if you accept the argument and = mathematics of=20 Randall Mills, and others, that the electron itself is a = negative-mass=20 particle -
     
    ....not to be confused with Dirac's = negative-energy=20 electron - nor to be confused with the ant-particle, the positron. BTW = does=20 anyone know off-hand if Mills' positron is also negative = mass?
     
    Langmuir's paradox - the broader = version - of=20 unexpectedly fast electrons showing up in any low energy plasma = (not just=20 Hg) is probably a *sound* related phenomenon (Alfven wave) in which the = sound=20 (kinetic) component accelerates the electrons to a surprising energy, = well=20 beyond normal kinetics. One of the reasons why the Alfven wave has been=20 suspected to be involved in OU.
     
    Below is a site that you can't access = without=20 subscription, but all of the information mentioned in the = abstract is=20 available online elsewhere. It is almost unbelievable that the author = did not=20 mention Alfven waves in the abstract:
     
    "Wave-Particle-Electric Field=20 Synergetic Auroral Electron Acceleration" Altair Souza de = Assis=20
    Universidade Federal=20 Fluminense, Caixa, = Brazil

    Abstract  We discuss afresh the = problem=20 of the auroral electron acceleration based on the controversy reports of = Bryant,=20 D. A. et al.: 1992, Phys. Rev. Lett. 68, 37, and Borovsky, J.: = 1992,=20 Phys. Rev. Lett. 69, 1054, related to which mechanism is more tenable to = accelerate auroral electrons: dc electric field generated somehow in = aurora or=20 wave-particle interaction due to auroral wave turbulence? Here, we show = that=20 both mechanisms are important, and what is most likely to happen in = aurora is=20 that the turbulence and the dc electric field structure will assist each = other=20 so as to synergetically accelerate those electrons.
    http://www.springerlink.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=3D262= 8d84b06f443769427e7998abd9445&referrer=3Dparent&backto=3Dissue,34= ,53;journal,18,65;linkingpublicationresults,1:102996,1
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C59280.6372E330-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 08:35:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RFYhGO003946; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:34:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RFYfZU003928; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:34:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050727153410.009b8e04 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:34:10 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:56 am 27/07/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Contemplating collisions with Neutral or Negative Mass >particles boggles the mind. > >How would a particle with Neutral mass affect >momentum? > Good question. It would send it spinning off at right angles, perhaps. In the ultimate, mass (and energy) is merely an aspect of momentum "Quis non agit non existit" (Leibniz); so neutral mass implies zero momentum. If a materon consists of two parts, ones spinning clockwise and one widdershins then because momentum is a vector the particle has zero momentum. However, I'm sure you can conjure up plenty of alternatives with the aid of your Metaphysical Magic. ;-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 09:09:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RG9FdI031554; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:09:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RG9EuQ031531; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:09:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:09:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005201c592c5$76d7e480$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: future printer = future replicator? Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:08:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01C5928A.C18A84F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <0hpn-C.A.jsH.pG75CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C5928A.C18A84F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eat you heart out "Gutenberg"...=20 ....yes, it is just a name these days, a symbol not a real person, but = it now has an even-more undeserved-legacy than anyone could have = imagined...(see footnote 1) Anyone who has bought a computer recently realizes that the manufacturer = or retailer practically gives-away an ink-jet printer to go with it. = (Catch-22 : the printer company makes enormous profits on the quickly = depleted ink cartridges) In the near future, however, surprising things are being anticipated in = the field, based on the evolution and convergence of several connecting = technologies (in the James Burke tradition).=20 One of them is ink. The other is paper (or film)....Doh.... The result is a computer printer which will print not just a document = but real computer circuits- even a CPU, memory chips, op-amps, RFID = stuff like that (IOW=3D brains) - the sky is the limit for printing. Imagine ink which is conducting, semiconducting, or controllably = corrosive (so as to burn several million holes through special paper, in = an applied pattern. Imagine printing five to fifteen sheets of special = paper or film, with circuit patterns aligned on each sheet and then = laminating (the collating printer of the future will do all of these = things automatically). Just on more step in the evolution towards the (under-appreciated) goal = of machines being able to reproduce. Self-replication is NOT a = limitation for machines of the future. Move over, simple-minded bipeds, the next dominant species of planet = earth is on the way... http://www.intertechusa.com/conferences/conferenceDetail.aspx?displayDeta= il=3Doverview&WCID=3D105 Jones (1) a rare vortex footnote. One thing to remember is that Gutenberg = gets credit for an invention that is thought to have been developed over = many centuries by many un-named folks simultaneously in Holland, Prague = and ... not to mention, mostly in China and elsewhere.=20 Block print technology in China was probably as important as what = Gutenberg contributed, but racism is deeply ingrained in Western = History. Some of the other inventions brought together by Gutenberg in = his pursuit of a printing press were:=20 a.. The adaptation for printing of the screw-type press, which had = been in use for hundreds of years, throughout Europe and Asia, for = making wine or olive oil. The adaptation of block-print technology - = known in Europe only since the return of Marco Polo at the end of the = 13th century.=20 b.. The development of mass production paper-making techniques. Paper = was brought from China in the 12th century. c.. The development of oil-based (rollable) inks. These had been = around since before the 10th century in China for use with block = printing. d.. Gutenberg's contribution to printing was the amalgamation of a = complete SYSTEM. e.. It was a punch and mold system which allowed the mass production = of the movable block type. Everything but the system was in place in = China at the time - but one disadvantage of having too many people, even = then (and cheap labor) is that there is no incentive for the = labor-saving system of Gutenberg - and that is primarily what it was. f.. Necessity is the mother of invention g.. The lack of population in Gutenberg's time caused by the black = plague coming around every other generation supplied the necessity. h.. Shouldn't the bacterium "Yersinia pestis" or the rodent "ratus = ratus" be given some of the credit? Actually the bacterium may have come = from the East also, but they had more skill at controlling the = population of "ratus ratus" - can you say "mum, that was a tasty = stir-fry and what was that meat that tastes like chicken, General Hsu ?" ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C5928A.C18A84F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Eat you heart out "Gutenberg"... =
     
    ....yes, it is just a name these days, = a symbol not=20 a real person, but it now has an even-more undeserved-legacy than = anyone=20 could have imagined...(see footnote 1)
     
    Anyone who has bought a computer = recently realizes=20 that the manufacturer or retailer practically gives-away an ink-jet = printer=20 to go with it. (Catch-22 : the printer company makes enormous profits on = the=20 quickly depleted ink cartridges)
     
    In the near future, however, surprising = things are=20 being anticipated in the field, based on the evolution and convergence = of=20 several connecting technologies (in the James Burke tradition). =
     
    One of them is ink. The other is paper = (or=20 film)....Doh....
     
    The result is a computer printer which = will print=20 not just a document but real computer circuits- even a CPU, memory=20 chips, op-amps, RFID stuff like that (IOW=3D brains) - the sky = is the=20 limit for printing.
     
    Imagine ink which is conducting, = semiconducting, or=20 controllably corrosive (so as to burn several million holes through = special=20 paper, in an applied pattern. Imagine printing five to fifteen sheets of = special=20 paper or film, with circuit patterns aligned on each sheet and then = laminating=20 (the collating printer of the future will do all of these things=20 automatically).
     
    Just on more step in the=20 evolution towards the (under-appreciated) goal of machines = being able=20 to reproduce. Self-replication is NOT a limitation for machines of the=20 future.
     
    Move over, simple-minded bipeds, = the next=20 dominant species of planet earth is on the way...
     
    http://www.intertechusa.com/conferences/conferenceDetail.aspx?di= splayDetail=3Doverview&WCID=3D105
     
    Jones
     
    (1) a rare vortex footnote.=20  One thing to remember is that Gutenberg gets = credit=20 for an invention that is thought to have been developed over many = centuries by=20 many un-named folks simultaneously in Holland, Prague and ... not to = mention,=20 mostly in China and elsewhere.

    Block print technology in China was = probably as=20 important as what Gutenberg contributed, but racism is deeply ingrained = in=20 Western History. Some of the other inventions brought together by = Gutenberg in=20 his pursuit of a printing press were:

    • The adaptation for printing of the = screw-type=20 press, which had been in use for hundreds of years, throughout Europe = and=20 Asia, for making wine or olive oil. The=20 adaptation of block-print technology - known in Europe only since the = return=20 of Marco Polo at the end of the 13th century.
    • The development of mass production = paper-making=20 techniques. Paper was brought from China in the = 12th century.
    • The development of oil-based = (rollable) inks.=20 These had been around since before the 10th century in China for use = with=20 block printing.
    • Gutenberg's contribution to printing = was the=20 amalgamation of a complete SYSTEM.
    • It was a punch and mold system which = allowed the=20 mass production of the movable block type. Everything but the system = was in=20 place in China at the time - but one disadvantage of having too many = people,=20 even then (and cheap labor) is that there is no incentive for the = labor-saving=20 system of Gutenberg - and that is primarily what it was.
    • Necessity is the mother of = invention
    • The lack of population in Gutenberg's = time caused=20 by the black plague coming around every other generation supplied the=20 necessity.
    • Shouldn't the bacterium=20 "Yersinia pestis"  or the rodent "ratus ratus" be given some of = the=20 credit? Actually the bacterium may have come from the East also, = but they=20 had more skill at controlling the population of "ratus ratus" - can = you say=20 "mum, that was a tasty stir-fry and what was that meat that tastes = like=20 chicken, General Hsu ?"
    ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C5928A.C18A84F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 10:06:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RH5qek026674; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:06:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RH5ogW026622; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:05:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:05:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726171505.04476010 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726171505.04476010 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:04:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Pleasant dreams from the International Association of Nanotechnology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell posted >Here is part of an FAQ recently mailed to me by the International >Association of Nanotechnology 3. Is it possible to make nano nuclear bomb, using nanotechnology which could release massive lethal nuclear radiation ? Yes. A nano tech nuclear bomb? As I understand it, a critical mass is required to make the bomb explode. Does anyone have an explanation of how something like this would work? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 10:20:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RHKNHg001478; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:20:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RHKLnq001464; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:20:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050727131414.0446a240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:19:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Pleasant dreams from the International Association of Nanotechnology In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726171505.04476010 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <665KKD.A.0W.VJ85CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >A nano tech nuclear bomb? As I understand it, a critical mass is required >to make the bomb explode. Good point. > Does anyone have an explanation of how something like this would work? Maybe you don't wanna know. Perhaps there is something on the Association's web site: http://www.ianano.org/ The conference announcement goes on to say: "To discuss about the state-of-the-art technological development in Nanotechnology and its impacts to the society at large, you are invited to participate in the International Congress of Nanotechnology 2005 October 31 to November 4, 2005, San Francisco, USA http://nanotechcongress.com [This link seems to be dead] Let your opinion be heard at the Congress! As of July 15, we are pleased to have more than 125 speakers from 35 countries. . . ." I wish CF conferences were as popular. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 10:55:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RHtQHJ016776; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:55:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RHtOmw016749; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:55:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:55:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050727132959.0446ea00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:54:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: future printer = future replicator? In-Reply-To: <005201c592c5$76d7e480$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <005201c592c5$76d7e480$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8g8P.A.pFE.Lq85CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >* It was a punch and mold system which allowed the mass production of the >movable block type. Everything but the system was in place in China at the >time - but one disadvantage of having too many people, even then (and >cheap labor) is that there is no incentive for the labor-saving system of >Gutenberg - and that is primarily what it was. I think the problem was too many written characters, not too many people. I do not know about China, but movable type was individual block-type characters was unsuccessful in premodern Japan. It was introduced in the 1700s as I recall, but it soon fell out of favor. They used traditional carved woodblock type instead -- the same technique used to make the famous ukio-e prints. Experts could carve entire pages with remarkable speed. The first modern block type was developed by Gamble & Motoki. See: http://www.honco.net/japanese/01/page1.html Even in the 20th century, Japanese printing remain difficult, slow and expensive because there are so many different characters. After World War II the number of characters was reduced to around 2000 but even this was too many for practical use. Typewriters were never practical. A few of them were used by well-trained secretaries. I once tried one of the "compact 'personal' typewriters" shown here: http://www.honco.net/japanese/05/page1.html Japanese typing did not become practical until the invention of the word processor, and is still a nuisance. The text is input in Romanized format, and it converts automatically to characters. The conversion is often incorrect and has to be manually patched up. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 11:03:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RI2TLf019760; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:02:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RI2Gix019577; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:02:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:02:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E7CBD9.8070309 sumosound.de> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:00:57 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pleasant dreams from the International Association of Nanotechnology References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726171505.04476010 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Jed Rothwell posted > >> Here is part of an FAQ recently mailed to me by the International >> Association of Nanotechnology > > 3. Is it possible to make nano nuclear bomb, using nanotechnology which > could release massive lethal nuclear radiation ? Yes. > > A nano tech nuclear bomb? As I understand it, a critical mass is > required to make the bomb explode. Does anyone have an explanation of > how something like this would work? You already know how something like this would work, or at least you should by now. According to the Foresight Institute, cavitation bubble collapse is a nanotechnology. It is used constructively to process materials into nano-powders mostly (see Ken Susslick's work for examples), but if used on any radioactive material, it would release massive lethal nuclear radiation. The British Navy found this out while cleaning the hulls of ships that had trace quantities of radioactive material around the torpedo tubes while using a phased-array, transducer based, multi-bubble cavitator to blast away barnacles - hence the NATO conference. I found this out in my kitchen in Seattle while testing my machine. It does not even require that the radioactive material be refined, enriched, or in any other way pre-processed. It just works. Nighty night, sleep tight, and don't let the bedbugs bite. Knuke And as the words were leaving his lips, a knock comes on the door.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 11:06:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RI6BjW021607; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:06:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RI693s021583; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:06:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:06:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <001201c592d5$c93ffb30$ef7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <005201c592c5$76d7e480$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: future printer = future replicator? Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:46:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Jones Beene Subject: future printer = future replicator? Anyone who has bought a computer recently realizes that the manufacturer or retailer practically gives-away an ink-jet printer to go with it. (Catch-22 : the printer company makes enormous profits on the quickly depleted ink cartridges) MC: Giving razors away and selling blades is a very old marketing tactic. What's new? And what would you propose? To my knowledge, various companies struggled decades to get ink jet printing up and running. It looks easy but is not -- until you know how. Printing technology is truly amazing when you dig into it. One can do things that seem at first impossible, like printing holograms and nano circuits. It goes to the molecular level. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 11:06:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RI68Wr021574; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:06:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RI66fP021536; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:06:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:06:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <001101c592d5$c8ec8400$ef7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050727125625.84924.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002401c592bb$110ecf10$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:39:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <2sPlYD.A.cQF.N085CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Not if you accept the argument and mathematics of Randall Mills, and others, that the electron itself is a negative-mass particle - Jones, just where do you see anything in the "argument and mathematics of Randell Mills" that the "electron itself is a negative-mass particle"? Mike Carrell ....not to be confused with Dirac's negative-energy electron - nor to be confused with the ant-particle, the positron. BTW does anyone know off-hand if Mills' positron is also negative mass? Langmuir's paradox - the broader version - of unexpectedly fast electrons showing up in any low energy plasma (not just Hg) is probably a *sound* related phenomenon (Alfven wave) in which the sound (kinetic) component accelerates the electrons to a surprising energy, well beyond normal kinetics. One of the reasons why the Alfven wave has been suspected to be involved in OU. Below is a site that you can't access without subscription, but all of the information mentioned in the abstract is available online elsewhere. It is almost unbelievable that the author did not mention Alfven waves in the abstract: "Wave-Particle-Electric Field Synergetic Auroral Electron Acceleration" Altair Souza de Assis Universidade Federal Fluminense, Caixa, Brazil Abstract We discuss afresh the problem of the auroral electron acceleration based on the controversy reports of Bryant, D. A. et al.: 1992, Phys. Rev. Lett. 68, 37, and Borovsky, J.: 1992, Phys. Rev. Lett. 69, 1054, related to which mechanism is more tenable to accelerate auroral electrons: dc electric field generated somehow in aurora or wave-particle interaction due to auroral wave turbulence? Here, we show that both mechanisms are important, and what is most likely to happen in aurora is that the turbulence and the dc electric field structure will assist each other so as to synergetically accelerate those electrons. http://www.springerlink.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=2628d84b06f443769427e7998abd9445&referrer=parent&backto=issue,34,53;journal,18,65;linkingpubl icationresults,1:102996,1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 11:12:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RIBonR024450; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:12:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RIBi53024371; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:11:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=2I2k20MUza4vhFKCfD/K1Kf/SQdfkNUNclidlN8+hMSN76YlLp4d2jRU8v3j9ddtKdvkK6v/oWX7zG1T+7VPu/IquPnKagYWUqkGnTlH81KV+ak43bxQMOWqpk96QdX8ndExreowlGL8I+o2cosZiHx4zk4bLqWm458wAvWIt3c= ; Message-ID: <20050727180439.80336.qmail web33312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:04:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Pleasant dreams from the International Association of Nanotechnology To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050727131414.0446a240 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-565864608-1122487479=:77730" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <9rv4j.A.k8F.g585CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-565864608-1122487479=:77730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It would most probably not require a critical mass as with fission, that leaves fusion. Chris Jed Rothwell wrote: thomas malloy wrote: >A nano tech nuclear bomb? As I understand it, a critical mass is required >to make the bomb explode. Good point. > Does anyone have an explanation of how something like this would work? Maybe you don't wanna know. Perhaps there is something on the Association's web site: http://www.ianano.org/ The conference announcement goes on to say: "To discuss about the state-of-the-art technological development in Nanotechnology and its impacts to the society at large, you are invited to participate in the International Congress of Nanotechnology 2005 October 31 to November 4, 2005, San Francisco, USA http://nanotechcongress.com [This link seems to be dead] Let your opinion be heard at the Congress! As of July 15, we are pleased to have more than 125 speakers from 35 countries. . . ." I wish CF conferences were as popular. - Jed --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-565864608-1122487479=:77730 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    It would most probably not require a critical mass as with fission, that leaves fusion.
     
    Chris

    Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
    thomas malloy wrote:

    >A nano tech nuclear bomb? As I understand it, a critical mass is required
    >to make the bomb explode.

    Good point.


    > Does anyone have an explanation of how something like this would work?

    Maybe you don't wanna know.

    Perhaps there is something on the Association's web site:

    http://www.ianano.org/

    The conference announcement goes on to say:

    "To discuss about the state-of-the-art technological development in
    Nanotechnology and its impacts to the society at large, you are invited to
    participate in the

    International Congress of Nanotechnology 2005
    October 31 to November 4, 2005, San Francisco, USA

    http://nanotechcongress.com [This link seems to be dead]

    Let your opinion be heard at the Congress!

    As of July 15, we are pleased to have more than 125 speakers from 35
    countries. . . ."

    I wish CF conferences were as popular.

    - Jed


    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-565864608-1122487479=:77730-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 11:46:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RIjUpE006529; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:45:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RIjSgp006514; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:45:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:45:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050727143823.04482d10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:45:02 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Pleasant dreams from the International Association of Nanotechnology In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726171505.04476010 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >A nano tech nuclear bomb? Ah, here is a novel nanoscale approach: gravitational collapse. Why destroy a city when you can implode the whole planet? Or maybe the whole solar system. Jean-Paul just sent me an ICCF11 paper that needs editing: Stanislav V. Adamenko, et al., "THE CONDITIONS AND REALIZATION OF SELF-SIMILAR COULOMB COLLAPSE OF CONDENSED TARGET AND LOW-ENERGY LABORATORY NUCLEOSYNTHESIS" According to this: "The problem of fulfilling the conditions to achieve the collapse of an electron-nucleus system of matter with subsequent global nuclear transformation is one of the fundamental trends of contemporary science. Earlier, such a problem was considered only in connection with the global phenomena of astrophysics (gravitational collapse, formation of neutron stars, bursts of supernovas, etc.). Recently, it has been found [1-4] that the state of collapse can be realized also under terrestrial conditions in a laboratory with an energy supply of at most 1 kJ. Of great importance is the fact that a macroscopic quantity of matter can be involved in the state of collapse (at least 10E18 atoms) rather than 2 separate nuclei, as it is happening in accelerators with extremely high energies. Thorough studies [5] have shown that the phenomenon of global self-compression of matter can be related to the Coulomb collapse of an electron-nucleus system. The conditions for such a collapse can be fulfilled only when a macroscopic amount of matter is preliminarily compressed up to the critical density corresponding to a degenerate relativistic gas. . . . [I]t is very difficult to realize a collapse in ordinary laboratory conditions by using the traditional methods of targets compression. We consider two different methods of compression of matter up to the critical density. . . ." Like I said, maybe you don't wanna know . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 11:55:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RIsvmI010405; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:55:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RIssIs010374; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:54:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:54:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404pq$189i04i mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,146,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1352204434:sNHT32699872" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: future printer = future replicator? Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:54:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" ... > MC: Giving razors away and selling blades is a very old > marketing tactic. What's new? ... I'm waiting for Microsoft or AOL to start giving away free PCs - as long as you sign a 2 year contract to their monthly email/web service. Just wait! I bet it will happen! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 12:04:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RJ3kiP016513; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:04:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RJ3iLa016482; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:03:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:03:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003401c592dd$d30699a0$ef7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <005201c592c5$76d7e480$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20050727132959.0446ea00@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: future printer = future replicator? Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:02:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" Subject: Re: future printer = future replicator? > Even in the 20th century, Japanese printing remain difficult, slow and > expensive because there are so many different characters. After World War > II the number of characters was reduced to around 2000 but even this was > too many for practical use. Typewriters were never practical. A few of them > were used by well-trained secretaries. I once tried one of the "compact > 'personal' typewriters" shown here: > > http://www.honco.net/japanese/05/page1.html > > Japanese typing did not become practical until the invention of the word > processor, and is still a nuisance. The text is input in Romanized format, > and it converts automatically to characters. The conversion is often > incorrect and has to be manually patched up. A chance to add some personal history of a critical step in Japanese printing. As part of my career at RCA, I was with the rise and fall of the Graphics Systems Division, which was chartered to combine TV and computer technology to produce electronically full page images of newspapers on film, and from there printing plates, thus bypassing the labor-intensive composing room. It was audacious, and we were able to do it for text, but not graphics, with the RCA Spectra 70 mainframe computer of the time. For a while the LA Times want ads -- 6 pt type -- were produced by RCA VideoComps, starting with a high resolution 7-in CRT image. It was a tour de force. GSD also wrote the first real word processor, capable of handling books and such, called Page 1. This was in the '60s. RCA had a trading company in Japan to handle business there. In our second or third year, a single representative was sent to GSD to see what we were doing. the following year four came, and then a resident team of eight were set up with their oen computer and access to the in-house videocomp. The requirements of Japanese newspapers -- delicate characters [hevy lines would be rude] and the huge library of images taxed the capability of the VideoComp to its limt. It had to run in the highest resolution mode, crawling at 100 characters per second. The character database had to be organized with a thorough knowledge of the language and character frequency, something that RCA programmers could not attempt. It wasn't perfect, but it was far ahead of the Japanese typewriters of the time, using some 13 levels of shifts -- operated with the feet -- where a skilled person could go at one character per second. GSD and the VideoComp attracted wide attention. a UK publisher offered any amount of money if we could crack the charcoal sketch and halftone problem. After six months of effort we gave up. Laser technology was just emerging. The RCA bean counters demanded a guaranteed cash flow of $50 million annually to retain dvision status. GSD was folded into the computer division, and then RCA decided to get out of the computer business. The Japanese were left high and dry. Eventually the GSD technology was bought up by a smaller firm who may have been able to support the Japanese for a while. I don't know what became of that thread. So all you guys typing happily away with your word processors can lift a beer and shed a tear for RCA GSD, where it was proven that high quality typesetting could be done electronically. If, if, and if, RCA could have had a commanding place in electronic publishing. Instead it's crowning achievement was compatable color television and major contributions to the digital compression techniques used in MPEG-2. So as you raise your eyes from the keyboard to your CRT, you can also thank RCA. Another beer and tear for RCA's pioneering efforts in liquid crystal technology, which it sold to Timex for watches, even as the company struggled to produce "mural TV". So even if you are using an LCD monitor, there is a tiny thread back to a fading legend in electronics. Mike Carrell > > - Jed > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 12:32:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RJVDd4029791; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:31:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RJVACu029768; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:31:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:31:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c592e1$b11dbc20$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050727125625.84924.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002401c592bb$110ecf10$6401a8c0@NuDell> <001101c592d5$c8ec8400$ef7cccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:30:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, > Not if you accept the argument and mathematics of Randall Mills, > and others, > that the electron itself is a negative-mass particle - > Jones, just where do you see anything in the "argument and > mathematics of > Randell Mills" that the "electron itself is a negative-mass > particle"? I realized soon after hurrying that off, that the "negative mass" was incorrect and "does not feel gravity" is the Mills' contention. Some might argue the two are not as dissimilar as they seem. Is "does not feel gravity" not your understanding? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 13:02:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RK25Np013930; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:02:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RK2212013888; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:02:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:02:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c592e5$fc4f51f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050727125625.84924.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002401c592bb$110ecf10$6401a8c0@NuDell> <001101c592d5$c8ec8400$ef7cccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001401c592e1$b11dbc20$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Mills and anti-gravity: was Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:01:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Relating to the general subject of R. Mills and anti-gravity -- I cannot find the actual equation I am looking from a cursory search, but I do remember it vaguely - Is Eric Baard still on vortex? Here is a quote from one of his old articles on Mills: If spaceships are to hit such speeds, NASA scientists agree that rockets are a dead end. Mills says the answer may again lie in the electron, which according to his theory **might be made to respond negatively to gravity.** He quickly emphasizes that this part of his work awaits experimentation, and he has kept quiet about it so far because he's quite aware of how his critics will ridicule it. Mills is uncharacteristically coy in referring to the antigravity machine as a "relativity device." There was a moment when it seemed NASA engineers might look into Mills' antigravity theory. Luke Setzer, a mechanical engineer at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida requested permission to investigate the idea's potential. Setzer says as a mechanical engineer, he's more intuitively comfortable with Mills' deterministic view of the universe. > I realized soon after hurrying that off, that the "negative > mass" was incorrect and "does not feel gravity" is the Mills' > contention. Some might argue the two are not as dissimilar as > they seem. > Is "does not feel gravity" not your understanding? > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 13:13:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RKDGD8021193; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:13:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RKDEM3021158; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:13:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:13:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050727153328.044685c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:12:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726111110.04480290 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726111110.04480290 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Insipid" is the wrong word here. I was trying to say that he Times has trivialized global warming, or sucked the juice out of it you might say, reducing a complicated, vitally important, multifaceted issue to the me-first perspective of a wealthy person living in a large city: We need air-conditioners or people will drop dead from the heat. Here are some of the weighty issues the Times has not addressed: How will we power those air-conditioners with? What about other species? What about the planet as a whole? Will air-conditioners really be the most pressing issue when New York City is submerged? The Congress will probably pass an energy bill reflecting a similar blinkered, me-first perspective. Even though this administration is filled with oil industry people, this is the first energy initiative it has offered in four years, and it is a yawn. It *is* insipid -- the word fits here. The bill subsidizes waste and tries to maintain the status quo. Even with this administration, we might have expected more. Another set of people from the fossil fuel business might have understood that their industry was in crisis, and that bold steps are essential. They might have proposed a program to preserve their own interests and financial future, while making radical changes. In the past, when other industries faced crises such as severe accidents, public outrage for one reason or another, or sudden obsolescence. Some have rallied and responded creatively, making radical changes that rejuvenated their business and restore public confidence. For example, when railroad trains began moving faster in the 1870s and the volume of traffic increased exponentially, so did accidents and deaths. The railroad companies responded with a host of improvements such as air brakes, better signals, improved safety and inspection standards, stronger cars, better bridges and so on. By 1900 rail travel was quite safe even by 21st century standards. If the fossil fuel companies had taken decisive steps 20 years ago, today they might be selling hydrogen generated by wind turbines (or perhaps a hydrogen based synthetic fuel). Instead they did nothing. The only thing the Congress has done is increase the use of ethanol -- an energy sink that wastes millions of barrels of oil -- and the only reason they did it was in response to pressure from the big agriculture lobby. It seems incredible, but as far as I can tell, no member of Congress, Democrat or Republican, and no one in the present or previous administration has made any proposals that would have a substantive effect on energy. The proposals now under consideration are all either window dressing that will have no effect, or they are like ethanol, and they will make the situation considerably worse. Not only are the political leaders bankrupt and without imagination, but so are the big corporations that make fossil fuel, automobiles, power generators and so on. I will grant, some of them are making token efforts. They build the equivalent of two or three nuclear power plants per year in wind energy. Toyota is selling 100,000 hybrid automobiles per year. But they should be doing 10 times more, or hundred times more. Ford, for example, is now offering a hybrid which gets 30 miles-per-gallon, which is almost as good as a 1995 station wagon. Ford expects hybrids will constitute a mighty 0.06% of its annual sales in a few years. This is far too little, far too late. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 13:19:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RKHsH1024869; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:18:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RKHlHP024736; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:17:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:17:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=qIkaAtAjuySbPb2OaYnFRA4hNdrjBKDcQ1PnWEpCdLkRMUCa08amRoZqxn8D63Pr4gG37dKjBBIKngTnbGxpOiqdbzTsGzsSzy+UOUxJ0TMK6Ux2ltIXz2RP+sfYNkUvNc8M5Kh8mFD9qczsqfQnxgidu9cmoA9/9snjqz6WYwQ= ; Message-ID: <20050727201709.7900.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:17:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: future printer = future replicator? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <005201c592c5$76d7e480$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah, but have you looked at stereolithography lately? http://www.zcorp.com/ This company markets 3D rapid prototyping machines based on inkjet printers. They lay out a base of starch powder and then the printhead comes along and sprays a binding agent instead of ink. I've been to a demo they did, and the level of detail and speed were pretty amazing. I would say they create prototypes (in up to 4 colors) accurate to 1/100th inch. IIRC they use standard HP inkjet printheads. --- Jones Beene wrote: > Eat you heart out "Gutenberg"... > > ....yes, it is just a name these days, a symbol not > a real person, but it now has an even-more > undeserved-legacy than anyone could have > imagined...(see footnote 1) > > Anyone who has bought a computer recently realizes > that the manufacturer or retailer practically > gives-away an ink-jet printer to go with it. > (Catch-22 : the printer company makes enormous > profits on the quickly depleted ink cartridges) > > In the near future, however, surprising things are > being anticipated in the field, based on the > evolution and convergence of several connecting > technologies (in the James Burke tradition). > > One of them is ink. The other is paper (or > film)....Doh.... > > The result is a computer printer which will print > not just a document but real computer circuits- even > a CPU, memory chips, op-amps, RFID stuff like that > (IOW= brains) - the sky is the limit for printing. > > Imagine ink which is conducting, semiconducting, or > controllably corrosive (so as to burn several > million holes through special paper, in an applied > pattern. Imagine printing five to fifteen sheets of > special paper or film, with circuit patterns aligned > on each sheet and then laminating (the collating > printer of the future will do all of these things > automatically). > > Just on more step in the evolution towards the > (under-appreciated) goal of machines being able to > reproduce. Self-replication is NOT a limitation for > machines of the future. > > Move over, simple-minded bipeds, the next dominant > species of planet earth is on the way... > > http://www.intertechusa.com/conferences/conferenceDetail.aspx?displayDetail=overview&WCID=105 > > Jones > > (1) a rare vortex footnote. One thing to remember > is that Gutenberg gets credit for an invention that > is thought to have been developed over many > centuries by many un-named folks simultaneously in > Holland, Prague and ... not to mention, mostly in > China and elsewhere. > Block print technology in China was probably as > important as what Gutenberg contributed, but racism > is deeply ingrained in Western History. Some of the > other inventions brought together by Gutenberg in > his pursuit of a printing press were: > > > a.. The adaptation for printing of the screw-type > press, which had been in use for hundreds of years, > throughout Europe and Asia, for making wine or olive > oil. The adaptation of block-print technology - > known in Europe only since the return of Marco Polo > at the end of the 13th century. > b.. The development of mass production > paper-making techniques. Paper was brought from > China in the 12th century. > c.. The development of oil-based (rollable) inks. > These had been around since before the 10th century > in China for use with block printing. > d.. Gutenberg's contribution to printing was the > amalgamation of a complete SYSTEM. > e.. It was a punch and mold system which allowed > the mass production of the movable block type. > Everything but the system was in place in China at > the time - but one disadvantage of having too many > people, even then (and cheap labor) is that there is > no incentive for the labor-saving system of > Gutenberg - and that is primarily what it was. > f.. Necessity is the mother of invention > g.. The lack of population in Gutenberg's time > caused by the black plague coming around every other > generation supplied the necessity. > h.. Shouldn't the bacterium "Yersinia pestis" or > the rodent "ratus ratus" be given some of the > credit? Actually the bacterium may have come from > the East also, but they had more skill at > controlling the population of "ratus ratus" - can > you say "mum, that was a tasty stir-fry and what was > that meat that tastes like chicken, General Hsu ?" > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 13:22:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RKLuP2028808; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:22:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RKLqIn028753; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:21:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:21:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=CA3O7SSTu2jscGAeHxpudLHujHpbmC0dsQHzOTe6QgdvsIq3b8qNqRcZ3IefBTkW4HAkRDZeqzjBbFvuOPJOfFGCNtYOcW3l5CDHuF8Z+jwPskwAFb92jaAZdvJuHJ/9lMKNUl5yQfrLgqVOdAc3mVGTcK/cchqg+gjKMqz99yM= ; Message-ID: <20050727202126.23281.qmail web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:21:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050727153410.009b8e04 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What I meant was that if momentum is to be conserved, and the neutral mass particle has by definition zero momentum, then the collision cannot change the momentum of a normal positive mass particle. A particle with negative mass would, when impacted immediately proceed towards the impetus pushing on it rather than away as a positive mass particle would. --- Grimer wrote: > At 05:56 am 27/07/2005 -0700, you wrote: > >Contemplating collisions with Neutral or Negative > Mass > >particles boggles the mind. > > > >How would a particle with Neutral mass affect > >momentum? > > > > Good question. > > It would send it spinning off at right angles, > perhaps. > > In the ultimate, mass (and energy) is merely an > aspect > of momentum "Quis non agit non existit" (Leibniz); > so neutral mass implies zero momentum. > > If a materon consists of two parts, ones spinning > clockwise and one widdershins then because momentum > is a vector the particle has zero momentum. > > However, I'm sure you can conjure up plenty of > alternatives with the aid of your Metaphysical > Magic. ;-) > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 14:33:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RLWgrI003561; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:32:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RLWd2e003537; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:32:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:32:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vksc$18b2nu4 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,146,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1353801668:sNHT964744852" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:32:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > "Insipid" is the wrong word here. ... I can only add to Jed's lament that personally I would have no problem whatsoever if I started seeing brand new high-tech megawatt windmills, PV cells, Fuel Cells and other alternative energy devices (including, hopefully, CF technology) that were being manufactured and serviced on a regular basis by SHELL, EXON, MOBIL and other petroleum producing companies of today. If only they had the vision to truly position themselves for the future. One would have hoped that the energy producing conglomerates of today would begin to see the writing on the wall in terms of their own self-interest. Due to a natural desire to stay the dominant player in the energy-producing field one would have hoped that most of them, with access to huge cash resources, would have started planning more seriously in positioning their future investments in AE technology. Instead it would appear that they focus most of their resources on lobbying in Washington for huge tax credits designed to make it more financially and politically expedient to drill for more gas & oil. Lobbying to make it cheaper to drill for new wells is not a solution to their future self-interests, nor their own self-preservation for that matter. It only delays the inevitable. It's personally distressing from my perspective to see how lacking in vision most of these companies are and how incapable they appear to be in planning for when their own children (the future emp! loyers & employees) must assume the reins of control. I gather that presently some of these companies are currently doing some token (PR) research in AE such as how to produce Ethanol. However, as Jed has already commented, it tends not to be a true AE solution. In all honesty, I have heard conflicting opinions on this particular issue. I have heard claims that the production of ethanol CAN be a net energy gain. Never the less, I tend to side with Jed on this issue. To reiterate: What's often glossed over in the effort to produce Ethanol is how much conventional (fossil fuel) energy was consumed to make the expensive fertilizer that will be used to grow the plants just to make some Ethanol. But then, gosh darn! No wonder the petroleum producing companies appear to support efforts to produce more Ethanol! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 15:06:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RM5neA020018; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:06:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6RM5msW020001; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:05:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:05:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050727173535.044820b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:05:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial In-Reply-To: <48vksc$18b2nu4 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <48vksc$18b2nu4 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >. . . I have heard conflicting opinions on this particular issue. I have >heard claims that the production of ethanol CAN be a net energy gain. I have heard these claims too, and I think they are being made by honest and serious researchers. I will grant that Pimentel may be incorrect on this issue. However, ethanol industry sources say the net gain ratio is only 1:1.3. That is pathetic! For an energy system in the laboratory such as CF or hot fusion that would be impressive, but for a real world energy system that ratio indicates an engineering fiasco and a ludicrous waste of resources. If we were extracting oil or building wind turbines and nuclear plants with these ratios, we would die for lack of energy. The oil shale project was abandoned because of low efficiency, but I believe it did better than this. The money spent achieving these ratios would be far more effective if it were devoted to improving automotive efficiency. Heck it would be better to use it to subsidize Japanese hybrid automobile production. Better to hand over the money to the Japanese than to the Saudis, who use the profits to finance the war against us. (The U.S. is the only nation in history to fight a major foreign war and pay the full costs for both sides.) The only conventional energy source that may approach this dismal ratio is PV electricity in some applications, such as calculator battery replacements used in dark places. This should really be considered a convenient, inexhaustible battery -- a method of transferring energy from the PV factory to the calculator in the field -- rather than an energy source. It is incredible to me that no one in the Congress stands up and says that ethanol is a stupid waste even assuming the claims made by the ethanol lobby are correct. Perhaps Congressman are innumerate. I am sorry to say this, but most reporters appear to be innumerate, and they have no clue about elementary physics or engineering. They would fail the chapter tests in six-grade school textbooks, never mind high school. I have met adults who could not identify the engines on a Boeing 747. I mean they did not know which part of the airplane pushes the craft through the air, and why it must keep moving or it will fall. (I do not think this is a new development, or that people are becoming progressively less knowledgeable about technology. My impression from reading James Thurber and other sources is that people never did have a clue. My mother used to say that in 1925 most people in New York city had no idea the earth goes around the sun, or where Europe is, or for that matter, where the Statue of Liberty is.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 17:36:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S0aD4r017567; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:36:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S0a7FC017502; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:36:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:36:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <3844a70a-29ce-451e-8508-0a64fdcfc5ed> Message-ID: <005d01c5930c$431dbc40$ef7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050727125625.84924.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002401c592bb$110ecf10$6401a8c0@NuDell> <001101c592d5$c8ec8400$ef7cccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001401c592e1$b11dbc20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <002201c592e5$fc4f51f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Mills and anti-gravity: was Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:19:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <_W6iLC.A.VRE.2hC6CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jones Beene" Subject: Mills and anti-gravity: was Langmuirs paradox and ZPE > Relating to the general subject of R. Mills and anti-gravity -- > > I cannot find the actual equation I am looking from a cursory > search, but I do remember it vaguely - > > Is Eric Baard still on vortex? > > Here is a quote from one of his old articles on Mills: > > If spaceships are to hit such speeds, NASA scientists agree that > rockets are a dead end. Mills says the answer may again lie in the > electron, which according to his theory **might be made to respond > negatively to gravity.** He quickly emphasizes that this part of > his work awaits experimentation, and he has kept quiet about it so > far because he's quite aware of how his critics will ridicule it. > Mills is uncharacteristically coy in referring to the antigravity > machine as a "relativity device." > There was a moment when it seemed NASA engineers might look into > Mills' antigravity theory. Luke Setzer, a mechanical engineer at > the Kennedy Space Center in Florida requested permission to > investigate the idea's potential. Setzer says as a mechanical > engineer, he's more intuitively comfortable with Mills' > deterministic view of the universe. > > > > I realized soon after hurrying that off, that the "negative > > mass" was incorrect and "does not feel gravity" is the Mills' > > contention. Some might argue the two are not as dissimilar as > > they seem. > > > Is "does not feel gravity" not your understanding? So we have Eric Baard quoting a speculation by Mills. I've no problem with the notion that the published and well-embellished GUT_CQM is incomplete and may be full of surprises. I am concerned at this stage with misleading attributes making it seem that Mills has not and is not doing solid, responsiuble science and making only claims that can be backed up. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 17:40:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S0dZF4018953; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:39:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S0dW7e018926; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:39:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:39:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <6a8b3ced-d574-480c-81eb-447cddd11d26> Message-ID: <005e01c5930c$c1cb6470$ef7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <48vksc$18b2nu4 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050727173535.044820b0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:38:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK guys, it's 'they should have' all over again and ignoring the responsibilities of CEOs of energy comapnies. I might be wrong, but I believe Shell is deeply into PV systems and regrds itself as an energy company, not an "oil" company. I have heard second and third hand similar sentiments attributed to other oil CEOs. Jed has been fuming about the slow progress of CF for a decade or so now, but you don't hasten crops by pulling on the shoots. There is no technical substitute for oil now or in the near future, and it goes well beyond transportation. The ludicrous notion of growing crops for fuel ignores that the lush production is by oil-based fertilizers and oil-run harvesting machinery. After decades of incremental effort wind turbines are reaching a point of interest. PV works in some niche applications. If some other breakthrough does not happen, lifestyles will change. It is easy to sneer at a city's need for air conditioning, but office buildings for decades have relied on sophisticated air HVAC systems. Without them, they become uninhabitable. There are lots of people, public and private, working on pieces of the hydrogen fuel problem and progress is made. Keep your eyes on BLP. The present external quiet does not necessarily reflect a lack of constructive activity. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 17:53:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S0qa17023881; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:52:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S0qY7g023856; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:52:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:52:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050727174922.029a30c0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:49:57 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Second arrest made in Eugene Mallove murder case Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_188721359==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_188721359==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed NEWS RELEASE July 27, 2005 On July 26, 2005 at 11:00am, Detectives from the Norwich Police Department arrested the following individual for the murder of the below victim on May 14th, 2004: ACCUSED: Joseph P. Reilly, W/M, DOB: 12/18/65 Connecticut Department of Corrections CHARGE: Felony Murder VICTIM: Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, DOB: 06/09/1947 The arrest is a result of an intensive investigation conducted by the Norwich Police Department in conjunction with the New London County State's Attorney's Office. On May 14, 2004, at 10:53pm, Norwich Police located the body of Dr. Eugene F. Mallove to the rear of 119 Salem Tpke., Norwich, Connecticut. The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Farmington, Connecticut conducted a post mortem examination of the victim on May 15, 2004. The Medical Examiner ruled the manner of death a Homicide. Reilly was developed as a suspect early in the investigation however, until recently, there was not enough evidence to support an arrest. Additional evidence was developed by detectives leading to the arrest warrant being signed. Reilly was arrested by warrant at court as he is incarcerated on an unrelated case. A $1,000,000. bond was set on the warrant by the court. Reilly was presented in Norwich Superior Court in the afternoon on July 26, 2005. The investigation remains open and no further details will be released at this time. The Norwich Police Department encourages anyone with information pertaining to this incident to contact Norwich Police Detectives at 892-2889 or the anonymous tip-line at 886-5561, extension 500. __________________ Lt. Timothy I. Menard Detective Division ### --=====================_188721359==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"  

    NEWS RELEASE

     

    July 27, 2005

     
    On July 26, 2005 at 11:00am, Detectives from the Norwich Police Department arrested the following individual for the murder of the below victim on May 14th, 2004:
     
    ACCUSED:    Joseph P. Reilly, W/M, DOB: 12/18/65
                            Connecticut Department of Corrections
     
    CHARGE:      Felony Murder
     
    VICTIM:        Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, DOB: 06/09/1947
     
    The arrest is a result of an intensive investigation conducted by the Norwich Police Department in conjunction with the New London County State’s Attorney’s Office.
     
    On May 14, 2004, at 10:53pm, Norwich Police located the body of Dr. Eugene F. Mallove to the rear of 119 Salem Tpke., Norwich, Connecticut. 
     
    The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Farmington, Connecticut conducted a post mortem examination of the victim on May 15, 2004.  The Medical Examiner ruled the manner of death a Homicide. 
     
    Reilly was developed as a suspect early in the investigation however, until recently, there was not enough evidence to support an arrest.  Additional evidence was developed by detectives leading to the arrest warrant being signed.
     
    Reilly was arrested by warrant at court as he is incarcerated on an unrelated case. A $1,000,000. bond was set on the warrant by the court.  Reilly was presented in Norwich Superior Court in the afternoon on July 26, 2005.
     
    The investigation remains open and no further details will be released at this time. 
     
    The Norwich Police Department encourages anyone with information pertaining to this incident to contact Norwich Police Detectives at 892-2889 or the anonymous tip-line at 886-5561, extension 500. 
     
     
    __________________
    Lt. Timothy I. Menard
    Detective Division                                            
     
     
    ###
     
    --=====================_188721359==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 18:35:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S1YDQZ009911; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:34:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S1YB5b009890; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:34:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:34:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c59314$652241a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050727125625.84924.qmail web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002401c592bb$110ecf10$6401a8c0@NuDell> <001101c592d5$c8ec8400$ef7cccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001401c592e1$b11dbc20$6401a8c0@NuDell> <002201c592e5$fc4f51f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <005d01c5930c$431dbc40$ef7cccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Mills and anti-gravity: was Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:33:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Carrell" > So we have Eric Baard quoting a speculation by Mills. Not at all. I finally found it. Mills actually has a separate section in my edition (Jan 2000) of GUT-CQM starting on page 416 devoted to the possibility of negative electron mass. The antigravity information and formula run on for 12 pages and is way over my head. But it is clearly there and Eric did not misguote nor misrepresent anything which Mills said; nor did I mis-speak in my original posting. If anything, Eric bent over backwards to qualify his interivew (which ran in "Village Voice") >I've no problem with the notion that the published and >well-embellished GUT_CQM is incomplete and may be full of >surprises. I am concerned at this stage with misleading >attributes making it seem that Mills has not and is not doing >solid, responsiuble science and making only claims that can be >backed up. Hey, it may be irresponsible of Mills to go that far out on a limb and give his critics more ammo than they need; and the possibility of negative mass for the electron certainly cannot be backed up at this point in time, but it is there in black and white. He is not saying that it is fact, but he is certainly positioning himself to get full credit IF proof of negative or zero mass arrives; so yes - it is fair to say that it is part of his CQM theory. I think he may be correct, even. I'm impressed with the man's fearlessness, but I suspect 99% of physicists would say it is just one more thing proving that the guy is all-show and no-go. Mills made that bed and he must either sleep in it or do the 'mea culpa' thing, something that he has avoided at all costs in the past. Few doubt that the book is expansive and too amibitous for any single mortal person, and consequently frought with errors. So be it. The guy is undoubtedly a genius, IMHO, but still mortal and the only way he will ever convince that 99% who think he is closer to nut-case, is to pull of the self-powered hydrino demo. My contention is that others, who are a little more flexible and creative in the lab, and willing to try things that do not fit into to the Mills theory exactly - but may still involve a different kind of hydrino than Mills imagines, will beat him to that task of the self-powered demo (maybe not Naudin, but some other preservering and/or lucky so-and-so). I hope Mills pulls it off first, as he is the true genius behind the original concept, but as a wise Frenchman said, On parle peu quand la vanite ne fait pas parler. Jones Of course, in fairness, that same wise-man also said: Ce qui nous rend la vanite des autres insupportable, c'est qu'elle blesse la notre. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 19:30:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S2UFSY032363; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:30:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S2UDWn032344; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:30:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001f01c5931c$373e8a20$0d037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:29:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C592F2.4CD22AB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C592F2.4CD22AB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C592F2.4CD537F0" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C592F2.4CD537F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed wrote.. >Ford, for=20 >example, is now offering a hybrid which gets 30 miles-per-gallon, which = is=20 >almost as good as a 1995 station wagon. Thomas Friedman, a columnist for the Times, in today's op-ed section = writes " virtues that propelled ( Lance) Armstrong fading in America". = The article says the focus is fading. Interesting that he commented on = oil , writing... {And if you were President, and you had just seen more suicide bombs in = London, wouldn't you say to your aides: " We have got to reduce our = dependency on Middle East oil. We have to do it for our national = security. We have to do it because only if we bring down the price of = crude will these countries be forced to reform. And we should want to do = it because it is clear that green energy solutions are the wave of the = future, and the more quickly we impose a stringent green agenda on = ourselves, the more our companies will lead innovation in these = technologies} The entire Friedman article is a good piece of journalism and worth = reading . It does not cover one of the most compelling tasks for the = nation. Reformation of the selection process of the CEO of our major = corporations. At present the CEO is selected by Wall Street. An example = is the tragedy of Hewlitt Packard ( HP) . HP personifies the insanity = running rampant in our leading corporate entities. The CEO is selected = to please Wall Street's quarterly projections. Nothing else is important = ,. Do whatever it takes to make the stock price rise THIS QUARTER, the = future be damned. This is the mandate given the CEO. No wonder they = demand a pay package up front with stock guaranty options. They know it = can't be done so why not just play the game. Compare HP ( the printer was their cash cow) and Brother ( the old = Nippon Sewing Machine Company dating from year 1909). Look at sales = both in US and worldwide and notice Brother has stolen the thunder from = HP plus leading HP in new technology. The people inside HP tried to warn = the CEO ( Carly the dunce in panty hose) but money won over business = acumen. It actually didn't start with printers, it started with the = merge of Compaq which was insanity. Compare the HP model with the Dell = model for understanding the difference in CEO styles.=20 Examples in the energy industry ( no further need to kick a dead horse, = Enron) are El Paso and Reliant. The CEO's do the will of their master = Wall Street. How these two wonderful, asset rich and extremely = profitable companies could fall to such depths is a story of seduction = that is both tawdy and debaucherous. The American business model is now shaped and dictated to by Wall Street = not Main Street. Nothing else matters. Friedman may try to put words in = the President's mouth but nobody is listening to what Bush says anymore. = Someone asked an old timer in Key West about the inrush of people into = the keyes and the construction boom and when is it going to stop ?.. he = remarked.. nothin a darn good hurricane wouldn't take care of. Which begs the question.. is this what the leaders of our nation are = waiting for? .. the perfect storm? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C592F2.4CD537F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Jed wrote..

    >Ford, for
    >example, is now offering a hybrid which gets 30 = miles-per-gallon, which is
    >almost as good as a 1995 station = wagon.

    Thomas Friedman, a columnist for the Times, in today's op-ed section = writes "=20 virtues that propelled ( Lance) Armstrong fading in America". The = article says=20 the focus is fading. Interesting that he commented on oil , = writing...

    {And if you were President, and you had just seen more suicide bombs = in=20 London, wouldn't you say to your aides: " We have got to reduce our = dependency=20 on Middle East oil. We have to do it for our national security. We have = to do it=20 because only if we bring down the price of crude will these countries be = forced=20 to reform. And we should want to do it because it is clear that green = energy=20 solutions are the wave of the future, and the more quickly we impose a = stringent=20 green agenda on ourselves, the more our companies will lead innovation = in these=20 technologies}

    The entire Friedman article is a good piece of journalism and worth = reading .=20 It does not cover one of the most compelling tasks for the nation. = Reformation=20 of the selection process of the CEO of our major corporations. At = present the=20 CEO is selected by Wall Street.  An example is the tragedy of = Hewlitt=20 Packard  ( HP) . HP personifies the insanity running rampant in our = leading=20 corporate entities. The CEO is selected to please Wall Street's = quarterly=20 projections. Nothing else is important ,. Do whatever it takes to make = the stock=20 price rise THIS QUARTER, the future be damned. This is the mandate given = the=20 CEO. No wonder they demand a pay package up front with stock guaranty = options.=20 They know it can't be done so why not just play the game.

     Compare HP ( the printer was their cash cow) and Brother ( the = old=20 Nippon Sewing Machine Company dating  from year=20 1909).     Look at sales both in US and worldwide = and notice=20 Brother has stolen the thunder from HP plus leading HP in new = technology. The=20 people inside HP tried to warn the CEO ( Carly the dunce in panty hose) = but=20 money won over business acumen. It actually didn't start with printers, = it=20 started with the merge of Compaq which was insanity. Compare the HP = model with=20 the Dell model for understanding the difference in CEO styles.

    Examples in the energy industry ( no further need to kick a dead = horse,=20 Enron)  are El Paso and Reliant. The CEO's do the will of their = master Wall=20 Street. How these two wonderful, asset rich and extremely profitable = companies=20 could fall to such depths is a story of seduction that is both tawdy and = debaucherous.

    The American business model is now shaped and dictated to by Wall = Street not=20 Main Street. Nothing else matters. Friedman may try to put words in the=20 President's mouth but nobody is listening to what Bush says = anymore.=20 Someone asked an old timer in Key West about the inrush of people into = the keyes=20 and the construction boom and when is it going to stop ?.. he = remarked..=20 nothin a darn good hurricane wouldn't take care of.

    Which begs the question.. is this what the leaders of our nation are = waiting=20 for? .. the perfect storm?

    Richard

     

    ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C592F2.4CD537F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C592F2.4CD22AB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c5931c$355a39c0$0d037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C592F2.4CD22AB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 19:38:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S2cB99004147; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:38:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S2c6Nj004112; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:38:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:38:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.16.89] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Plasmae Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:37:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050728023743.OADT14543.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I know that I have said this before; but, tell me why all plasmae :) should not be considered ou. You kick your e- away and a seething hoard of sub quanta particles pop in at your doorstep. What's the probability of 1 + 1 = 2? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 22:24:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S5NjIE001940; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:24:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S5NifZ001932; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:23:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:23:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> References: <70495.1122132307883.JavaMail.root wamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <42E2C60E.5020108 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:21:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Article on energy in National Geographic Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell posted, and Ed Storms responded >Actually, the article was good and the statement about cold fusion >was accurate. Cold fusion is not yet a source of energy of any >value. Cold fusion is, however, a demonstrated phenomenon, which >might have a value in the future, a possibility the article leaves >open. > >Ed > >Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>Mitchell Swartz writes: >> >>>How good could the article be with such inaccuracy about cold fusion? >>> >>>The Real Deal, The verdict so far: Cold fusion is achievable by hard effort. >> >> I agree that this National Geographic comment is awful, and I think Ed agrees. But This exchange motivated me to pose some question to the group. It is my understanding that if the observed reactions were accomplished, using conventional nuclear reactions, there would be considerably more energy would be evolved than is being observed. Perhaps researchers can figure out the energy is going. Perhaps they can figure out how the reactions can be made to happen on demand. Because of the occurrence of rare isotopes, there is no question that nuclear reactions are occurring. Perhaps there is a use for which rare isotopes, can prove useful. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jul 27 23:37:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S6af02032597; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:36:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S6adCQ032569; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:36:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:36:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 01:36:09 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: nanonukes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The discussion on the nanonuke reminded me of an idea I had. I've noticed that smoke alarms have Americanium in them. Knuke's story about wiping down the yellow tiles with a rag and then ringing them out in water which he subsequently cavitated, makes me wonder what would happen under this scenario. Dissolving the Americanium with acid and the cavitating the material. Given Knuke's story, I think that this experiment would be best conducted by remote control. I suppose that radiation detectors would be a good investment too. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 02:24:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6S9NklI019864; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:24:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6S9Ni0t019837; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:23:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:23:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E78A81.50804 sumosound.de> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: nanonukes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <9Cmeu.A.51E.fQK6CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Thomas, From all that I have read and from my own experience, the working fluid should be a good dielectric. There are reasons for this which I haven't written out, but they should be obvious. This is to aid in the formation of a mini-plasma on the inside of the bubble wall as it collapses. Distilled water fits the bill, but acetone might be better. It is also a good solvent. If you do set up an experiment that is an open system, be careful to take into consideration any gases that might be formed as well. Also, I believe what is in the smoke detectors is called Americium, but the name may be slightly different over there. Knuke thomas malloy wrote: > The discussion on the nanonuke reminded me of an idea I had. I've > noticed that smoke alarms have Americanium in them. > > Knuke's story about wiping down the yellow tiles with a rag and then > ringing them out in water which he subsequently cavitated, makes me > wonder what would happen under this scenario. > > Dissolving the Americanium with acid and the cavitating the material. > Given Knuke's story, I think that this experiment would be best > conducted by remote control. > I suppose that radiation detectors would be a good investment too. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 07:24:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SENi0m000997; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:24:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SENfbh000986; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:23:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:23:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728101209.04477280 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:23:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial In-Reply-To: <001f01c5931c$373e8a20$0d037841 xptower> References: <001f01c5931c$373e8a20$0d037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >Thomas Friedman, a columnist for the Times, in today's op-ed section >writes . . . I was going to mention Friedman. I was a little unfair to the Times. Their unsigned editorials downplay the scope of problems such as global warming and energy, but some of their columnists are better. Furthermore, this is not a liberal versus conservative issue. Many conservative columnists agree with Friedman and me. In my book I quote the Times unsigned editorial: ". . . energy independence [is] an unattainable goal, largely because the United States, which uses one-quarter of the world's oil production, owns less than 3 percent of the world's oil reserves." I find that attitude intensely annoying! Of course it is attainable! There are no valid technical reasons why it was not attained years ago. And it is precisely because we have only 3% that we should be making energy independence a top priority. If the people in Los Vegas or Los Angeles shared the same attitude as the Times, they might say, "largely because we have so little water, there is no point to trying to conserve or recycle the water we have." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 07:44:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SEhUNg013011; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:43:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SEhRJI012975; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:43:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:43:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:42:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Today's N. Y. Time editorial Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here are some quotes from today's N. Y. Times lead editorial. I emphasize the Times's views because they do represent, in some sense, the views of the mainstream establishment. (Or at least, the Democratic party side of the establishment) "Energy Shortage The energy bill that has been six years in the making and is nearing the president's desk is not the unrelieved disaster some environmentalists make it out to be. But to say, as President Bush undoubtedly will, that it will swiftly move this country to a cleaner, more secure energy future is nonsense. The bill, approved by a House-Senate conference early Tuesday morning, does not take the bold steps necessary to reduce the nation's dependence on foreign oil, and it also fails to address the looming problem of global warming. These shortcomings are chiefly the fault of the White House and its retainers in the House. To be sure, the Senate showed no more courage than the House in its refusal to increase fuel-economy standards for cars and trucks . . . But the Senate did approve a renewable fuels provision requiring power plants to produce 10 percent of their electricity from nontraditional sources, like wind power, by 2010. . . . Meanwhile, both houses conspired in some spectacular giveaways. One would ease environmental restrictions on oil and gas companies drilling on public lands. The other would shower billions in undeserved tax breaks on the same companies, even as they wallow in the windfall profits produced by $60-a-barrel oil. The bill's most useful provisions may take years to realize their promise. Again thanks largely to the Senate, the tax provisions are far more hospitable to energy efficiency and renewable fuels than earlier versions of the bill, and include substantial incentives for buyers of fuel-efficient hybrid cars. More important in the long run, however, may be two provisions, buried deep in the bill, that are aimed at developing new energy technologies. One provision would encourage the development and commercial application of biofuels from agricultural products that, much like corn-based ethanol, might someday be used as a substitute for gasoline. The other provision is aimed at developing new clean-coal technologies to turn coal into a gas and, more important, capture emissions of carbon dioxide, a major contributor to global warming. These could be powerful new tools in any future effort to reshape the way Americans produce and use energy. . . ." MY COMMENT: These people do not know what they are talking about. Biofuels are a scam, and capturing carbon dioxide from coal would be so expensive and difficult it makes more sense to talk about space-based microwave energy, or what-have-you. Is this really the best the Times can come up with? Their ideas and imagination is so bankrupt, it is almost more frightening than the foolish intransigence of the administration. We have learned to discount this administration (and the previous one, too). It is obvious they will do nothing. But it is discouraging to see that the rest of establishment, including the Democratic opposition and the corporations, are as clueless as the administration. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 08:06:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SF5RS1030551; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:05:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SF5Luo030380; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:05:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:05:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e201c59385$b585deb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Earth not passing enough gas? Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:04:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C5934B.08A63DF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4aTQf.A.PaH.vQP6CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C5934B.08A63DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just when you thought no one was watching.... Two-thirds of a mile below the Japanese island of Honshu is the Kamioka = zinc mine, in which an unusual neutrino detector has been operating. It = records flashes of light produced by neutrinos originating in = radioactive decay of uranium and thorium in the heart of the Earth (not = from solar neutrinos). According to the measurements of these = "geoneutrinos," Earth's radioactivity generates about 19 billion = kilowatts of heat. By comparison, all the world's nuclear power plants = collectively generate about 1 billion kilowatts. Since this kind of decay chain produces lots of helium over geologic = time, one might suspect that more of it would be detectable in mines = like this, or coming to the surface with natural gas. Could all of it = have already outgassed during the past history of earth's violent = geology? Besides the lack of detectable helium, these and other deep mine results = leave opened-up another important question. Uranium and thorium produce = less than half of the estimated 45 billion kilowatts of heat that the = planet produces internally (over and above solar). Where is the rest of = that heat come from?=20 There is over a thousand times more potassium in the earths crust, but = most of the missing radioactivity and heat is coming from the core, = where there is mostly iron - but also surprising amount of carbon. = Carbon is ubiquitous, so the only surprising thing is how does a low = density element like carbon stay down there, given the density gradient, = when even more reactive light elements do not stay put? Probably, the most far-out of explanatory possibility relates back, = once-again, to all of that uranium and thorium in the heart of the = Earth. Some of it is in carbide form - but the question is- did the = carbon get there ab initio, or was some of it produced "in situ" - which = is how it appears from the distribution?=20 Certainly one of the prime elements produced in the uranium and thorium = decay is helium, and some of it does come to the surface in natural gas = - but only a fraction of what is expected. The rest could be bound up in = the compressed mineral lattice of the core, but... when this material is = brought to the surface, not enough helium is found there. It is coincidental that the fusion of three alphas would answer both = questions : i.e. the relative "lack of helium" and the relative "excess = of carbon" within the earth's deep mantle/core? Your initial reaction is = "no way, too much coulomb repulsion between the alphas for fusion, even = cold fusion, and besides it isn't cold down there." Last, year Frederick Sparber and I had the following exchange of = thoughts, regarding the possibility of a pseudo-BEC. Everyone on vortex = should know the general parameters of a real BEC... i.e. the main one = being very low temperature, but in the pseudo-BEC, high pressure and = "time" effectively substitute for cold (entropically there is little = difference).=20 Here is the gist of this prior exchange: > OTOH, for two deuterons the (repulsive charge)/(n*quark-magnetic = force) ratio is 2*Z/14 not counting the antineutrino in each. > How would this work for three BEC helium nuclei with 3*Z/42? :-) Well, Fred, they look pretty doggone close, don't they? What you seem to be saying is - that in terms of the relative repulsive = force which is felt in condensed matter at picometer distance, which = when overcome [by high pressure and lots of time] will lead to BEC-like = fusion, the "net" force between three helium nuclei is actually no = greater at all than what would be felt by two deuterons, no? One might further opine that if BEC-like "cold fusion" [pseudo-BEC] does = occur in condensed matter, one might well be advised to use He rather = than D2 because He is "always" a boson, while D2 is only bosonic during = the time that its electron is not closely bound, which one can assume = has significant positive value over time ... and consequently in a time = based situation, the He may be even more reactive for this kind of = fusion than deuterium - that is, assuming that one can load He in such a = way (ion implantation) that 3 atoms are usually present in a single = vacancy. [or forced into a vacancy by enormous earth pressure - I did = not realize this angle at the time of that prior exchange]. BTW, there is a good argument that all LENR relates to a pseudo-BEC = regime. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C5934B.08A63DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Just when you thought no one was = watching....
     
    Two-thirds of a mile below the Japanese = island of=20 Honshu is the Kamioka zinc mine, in which an unusual neutrino detector = has been=20 operating. It records flashes of light produced by neutrinos originating = in=20 radioactive decay of uranium and thorium in the heart of the Earth (not = from=20 solar neutrinos). According to the measurements of these "geoneutrinos," = Earth's=20 radioactivity generates about 19 billion kilowatts of heat. By = comparison, all=20 the world's nuclear power plants collectively generate about 1 billion=20 kilowatts.
     
    Since this kind of decay chain produces = lots of=20 helium over geologic time, one might suspect that more of it would be = detectable=20 in mines like this, or coming to the surface with natural gas. Could all = of it=20 have already outgassed during the past history of earth's violent=20 geology?

    Besides the lack of detectable helium, = these and=20 other deep mine results leave opened-up another important question. = Uranium and=20 thorium produce less than half of the estimated 45 billion kilowatts of = heat=20 that the planet produces internally (over and above solar). Where is the = rest of=20 that heat come from?

    There is over a thousand times more = potassium in the=20 earths crust, but most of the missing radioactivity and heat is = coming from=20 the core, where there is mostly iron - but also surprising amount of = carbon.=20 Carbon is ubiquitous, so the only surprising thing is how does a low = density=20 element like carbon stay down there, given the density = gradient, when even=20 more reactive light elements do not stay put?

    Probably, the most far-out  of = explanatory=20 possibility relates back, once-again, to all of that uranium and thorium = in the=20 heart of the Earth. Some of it is in carbide form - but the question is- = did the=20 carbon get there ab initio, or was some of it produced "in situ" - which = is how=20 it appears from the distribution?

    Certainly one of the prime elements = produced in the=20 uranium and thorium decay is helium, and some of it does come to the = surface in=20 natural gas - but only a fraction of what is expected. The rest could be = bound=20 up in the compressed mineral lattice of the core, but... when this = material is=20 brought to the surface, not enough helium is found there.

    It is coincidental that the fusion of = three alphas=20 would answer both questions : i.e. the relative "lack of helium" and the = relative "excess of carbon" within the earth's deep mantle/core? Your = initial=20 reaction is "no way, too much coulomb repulsion between the alphas for = fusion,=20 even cold fusion, and besides it isn't cold down there."

    Last, year Frederick Sparber and I had = the following=20 exchange of thoughts, regarding the possibility of a pseudo-BEC. = Everyone on=20 vortex should know the general parameters of a real BEC... i.e. the = main=20 one being very low temperature, but in the pseudo-BEC, high pressure and = "time"=20 effectively substitute for cold (entropically there is little = difference).=20

    Here is the gist of this prior = exchange:

    >=20 OTOH, for two deuterons the (repulsive charge)/(n*quark-magnetic force) = ratio is=20 2*Z/14  not counting the antineutrino in each.

    > How = would this=20 work for three BEC helium nuclei with 3*Z/42?  :-)

    Well, = Fred, they=20 look pretty doggone close, don't they?

    What you seem to be saying = is -=20 that in terms of the relative repulsive force which is felt in condensed = matter=20 at picometer distance, which when overcome [by high pressure and lots of = time]=20 will lead to BEC-like fusion, the "net" force between three helium = nuclei is=20 actually no greater at all than what would be felt by two deuterons,=20 no?

    One might further opine that if BEC-like "cold fusion"=20 [pseudo-BEC] does occur in condensed matter, one might well be = advised to=20 use He rather than D2 because He is "always" a boson, while D2 is only = bosonic=20 during the time that its electron is not closely bound, which one can = assume has=20 significant positive value over time ... and consequently in a time = based=20 situation, the He may be even more reactive for this kind of fusion than = deuterium - that is, assuming that one can load He in such a way (ion=20 implantation) that 3 atoms are usually present in a single vacancy. [or = forced=20 into a vacancy by enormous earth pressure - I did not realize this angle = at the=20 time of that prior exchange].

    BTW, there is a good argument that all = LENR relates=20 to a pseudo-BEC regime.

    Jones

    ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C5934B.08A63DF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 08:44:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SFhw0A022474; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:44:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SFhro8022438; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:43:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:43:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728104310.04475ba0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:43:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial In-Reply-To: <005e01c5930c$c1cb6470$ef7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <48vksc$18b2nu4 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050727173535.044820b0 pop.mindspring.com> <005e01c5930c$c1cb6470$ef7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3cqOOB.A.beF.40P6CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >OK guys, it's 'they should have' all over again and ignoring the >responsibilities of CEOs of energy comapnies. I might be wrong, but I >believe Shell is deeply into PV systems and regrds itself as an energy >company, not an "oil" company. I have heard second and third hand similar >sentiments attributed to other oil CEOs. So have I. But when you look at the amounts they spend on R&D, and scale of their commitment, you see this is mostly window dressing and public relations blather. They are not taking serious, large scale steps, and -- equally important -- they are not lobbying Congress to give them a tax break to build things like wind-turbine based hydrogen fuel systems. Instead, they are asking for massive tax breaks to drill for more oil and to distort the market in favor of waste and pollution. And of course Congress has given them all they ask for, on a silver platter. The fossil fuel companies should be building the equivalent of 4 or 5 nuclear power plants per year. powered by wind. (Or powered by uranium, for that matter.) That would make a substantial impact by the end of the decade. In 10 or 20 years it would eliminate oil imports. If they had started 20 years ago, and at the same time the auto companies had building millions of hybrid cars, the U.S. would be exporting oil today. We would be a member of OPEC, and we would only have one quarrel in the Middle East. We would be demanding that Saudi Arabia cut production and stop undermining our profits. These are not technological fantasies. They were described by mainstream sources such as the Scientific American back in the 1970s and 80s. Hybrid cars were invented and patented in 1906, for crying out loud. The solutions to the energy crisis have been sitting on the shelf, untouched, for most of the 20th century. >Jed has been fuming about the slow progress of CF for a decade or so now, >but you don't hasten crops by pulling on the shoots. Oh come now, Mike. Every CF researcher I know has dozens of experiments he is yearning to try. Those people could use hundreds of grad students and millions of dollars in funding, and if they had been given what they need ten years ago, by now we probably would have prototype CF automobiles. The difficulties have been exaggerated. >There is no technical substitute for oil now or in the near future, and it >goes well beyond transportation. I disagree completely! There have been technical substitutes available off the shelf since 1906. Of course we cannot eliminate oil overnight, but we sure could drastically cut consumption overnight -- I mean literally, within 24 hours -- and we could eliminate the problem completely in 10 or at most 20 years. The automobile fleet is replaced every 5 to 10 years. (Only a handful of cars last longer than 10 years.) If the U.S. was serious about the war in Iraq, and this so-called war on terror, we would take drastic steps such as: 1. Impose an emergency wartime tax of $2 per gallon to pay for the war. If consumption does not fall by at least 20%, impose rationing. 2. Impose a draft, and send hundreds of thousands of soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan. If we do not do this, we will lose both wars for sure, so we might as well bring all the troops home now. We are losing in slow motion now. 3. Ban the production of SUVs immediately. Ban the use of SUVs in urban areas except by authorized people who have a good reason to drive such vehicles, such as carpenters hauling ladders, lumber or heavy equipment. 4. Ban the production of conventional non-hybrid automobile engines starting in three years, and trucks starting in 5 years. All vehicles must be hybrid or pure electric. 5. Within 10 years, build enough wind power to supply all of the synthetic fuel or electricity needed for our automobiles and trucks. As I have shown here before, this is not as much energy as you might think. Conventional transportation technology is grotesquely wasteful and inefficient, so any replacement will use only half or one-third as much raw energy. A few weeks after Pearl Harbor, the White House made a few phone calls and *completely closed down all U.S. civilian automobile production for the duration of the war.* Think about that. They did not negotiate, or set up a schedule. They called the presidents of Ford, GM and Chrysler and told them to close their production lines immediately, and not to assemble a single car without government authorization, and to close all showrooms the next morning, and not to sell a single automobile to any civilian or corporation, period. That is the kind of thing you must do to win a war. Half measures do not work. It is a moral abomination for U.S. civilians and political leaders to stand around doing nothing to win the war, while thousands of our soldiers are killed and wounded, and thousands of Iraqi people killed by terrorists. We must take steps to root out the basic causes of the war, which are oil, oil money, and Mideast politics. Such radical steps may seem like an impossible fantasy now, but so did airplanes crashing into buildings before 9/11. If terrorists attack with a stolen nuclear weapon, the steps I listed above will not seem radical. On the contrary they will seem too little and too late. Or, if serious global warming sets in, people 100 years from now will say we should have done all of this and more. Freeman Dyson said: "The accepted wisdom says that, no matter what we decide to do about economic problems, we cannot expect to see any substantial results [for 15 years]. The accepted wisdom is no doubt correct, if we continue to play the game by the rules of today. But anyone who lived through World War II knows that the rules can be changed very fast when the necessity arises." The question boils down to this: Is this "war on terror" really a war, or is it just a charade in which we kill and main ~30,000 lower income Americans from small towns, and then surrender to the Taliban and al Qaeda and pretend it never happened? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 08:53:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SFqXLo027138; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:52:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SFqMjR027035; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:52:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:52:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050728155150.009e34ec pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:51:50 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:21 pm 27/07/2005 -0700, Magickal Engineer wrote: > What I meant was that if momentum is to be conserved, > and the neutral mass particle has by definition zero > momentum, then the collision cannot change the > momentum of a normal positive mass particle. > > A particle with negative mass would, when impacted > immediately proceed towards the impetus pushing on it > rather than away as a positive mass particle would. Mass in not a measure of the amount of stuff but a measure of how the internal strain energy of a particle differs from the strain energy of the surrounding environment. If the mass is non-zero then the particle has more specific strain energy (SSE), i.e. compressive strain energy per unit volume, or less SSE (tensile strain energy per unit volume) compared to the space around it. If it has zero mass, i.e. neutral mass, then it has the same SSE as the space around it. The situation is exactly the same as the situation with temperature, only temperature deals strain energy on a different scale. If a body such as a lump of iron has a temperature which differs from ambient, i.e. from the iron around it, then it contains more heat or less heat than the iron around it. If it has the same temperature and ambient, i.e. in lay parlance it is neither hot or cold, then it has neutral temperature. In the formula Force = mass times acceleration, mass is simply a measure of the number of thingees. A group of ten cannon balls has ten time the number of thingees, as one cannon ball and so ten times the momentum. One might say it is a measure of the macro strain of a body, not the micro strain. When 10 electrons are speeded up to 0.999 times the velocity of light it is a property of the electrons that changes, not their number. It is the denominator that changes, not the numerator Newton couldn't have been expected to know that mass wasn't a measure of stuff but a property of stuff. You should really read what Ing.Saviour says on his web site if you want to understand what mass is, and the implication of that understanding on the Universal Gravitational Constant, etc. 8-) A particle doesn't have to have mass to receive or give momentum. ============================================= "The fact that the electrons produced from the neutron decay had continuous distributions of energy and momentum was a clear indication that there was another particle emitted along with the electron and proton. It had to be a neutral particle and in certain decays carried almost all the energy and momentum of the decay. This would not have been so extraordinary except for the fact that when the electron had its maximum kinetic energy, it accounted for all the energy Q available for the decay. So there was no energy left over to account for the mass energy of the other emitted particle. The early experi- menters were faced with the dilemma of a particle which could carry nearly all the energy and momentum of the decay but which had no charge and apparently no mass! The mysterious particle was called a neutrino ============================================= Perhaps you should also read Jones's recent post where he writes, ================================= Not at all. I finally found it. Mills actually has a separate section in my edition (Jan 2000) of GUT-CQM starting on page 416 devoted to the possibility of negative electron mass... Hey, it may be irresponsible of Mills to go that far out on a limb and give his critics more ammo than they need; and the possibility of negative mass for the electron certainly cannot be backed up at this point in time, but it is there in black and white. He is not saying that it is fact, but he is certainly positioning himself to get full credit IF proof of negative or zero mass arrives; so yes - it is fair to say that it is part of his CQM theory. I think he may be correct, even... The guy is undoubtedly a genius... ================================= And if Jones thinks he's a genius, then he probably is . Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 09:23:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SGMNRp009305; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:22:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SGMLHH009282; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:23:21 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Today's N. Y. Time editorial References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suggest we are seeing the the effects produced by a society and its technical problems becoming too complex for the average person to properly comprehend. The energy problem is one example of an issue that is only properly understood by people having either technical training or the intelligence and interest to understand the complex relationships. People such as those who contribute to Vortex have this ability but obviously even people at the NYT do not. Meanwhile, greed, which is universal, works to distort the issue in favor certain powerful groups. The Bush administration is an extreme example of such greed operating. Even the growing focus on religion we see in the general population is a symptom of this condition. Explaining reality using religious concepts requires no thinking or technical training, hence is available to everyone. In addition, if we believe events follow God's will, we hold no responsibility for what will occur. As this attitude takes hold, I predict that the US will drift further and further from reality while becoming more religious in its approach to solving problems, with each reaction feeding on the other. The result will be similar to what the Christian fundamentalist predict, but in fact the future will be a self fulfilling prophesy of ignorant men, not the will of God. The basic problem is how can we or anyone cause people to think rationally rather than react emotionally to the growing list of problems facing society? Or is this too big a question to answer? Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here are some quotes from today's N. Y. Times lead editorial. I > emphasize the Times's views because they do represent, in some sense, > the views of the mainstream establishment. (Or at least, the Democratic > party side of the establishment) > > "Energy Shortage > > The energy bill that has been six years in the making and is nearing the > president's desk is not the unrelieved disaster some environmentalists > make it out to be. But to say, as President Bush undoubtedly will, that > it will swiftly move this country to a cleaner, more secure energy > future is nonsense. The bill, approved by a House-Senate conference > early Tuesday morning, does not take the bold steps necessary to reduce > the nation's dependence on foreign oil, and it also fails to address the > looming problem of global warming. > > These shortcomings are chiefly the fault of the White House and its > retainers in the House. To be sure, the Senate showed no more courage > than the House in its refusal to increase fuel-economy standards for > cars and trucks . . . > > But the Senate did approve a renewable fuels provision requiring power > plants to produce 10 percent of their electricity from nontraditional > sources, like wind power, by 2010. . . . > > Meanwhile, both houses conspired in some spectacular giveaways. One > would ease environmental restrictions on oil and gas companies drilling > on public lands. The other would shower billions in undeserved tax > breaks on the same companies, even as they wallow in the windfall > profits produced by $60-a-barrel oil. > > The bill's most useful provisions may take years to realize their > promise. Again thanks largely to the Senate, the tax provisions are far > more hospitable to energy efficiency and renewable fuels than earlier > versions of the bill, and include substantial incentives for buyers of > fuel-efficient hybrid cars. > > More important in the long run, however, may be two provisions, buried > deep in the bill, that are aimed at developing new energy technologies. > One provision would encourage the development and commercial application > of biofuels from agricultural products that, much like corn-based > ethanol, might someday be used as a substitute for gasoline. The other > provision is aimed at developing new clean-coal technologies to turn > coal into a gas and, more important, capture emissions of carbon > dioxide, a major contributor to global warming. > > These could be powerful new tools in any future effort to reshape the > way Americans produce and use energy. . . ." > > > MY COMMENT: These people do not know what they are talking about. > Biofuels are a scam, and capturing carbon dioxide from coal would be so > expensive and difficult it makes more sense to talk about space-based > microwave energy, or what-have-you. Is this really the best the Times > can come up with? Their ideas and imagination is so bankrupt, it is > almost more frightening than the foolish intransigence of the > administration. We have learned to discount this administration (and the > previous one, too). It is obvious they will do nothing. But it is > discouraging to see that the rest of establishment, including the > Democratic opposition and the corporations, are as clueless as the > administration. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 09:50:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SGnpHp022182; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:50:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SGnnIS022169; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:49:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:49:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c59394$4ebfc240$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Today's N. Y. Time editorial Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:49:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I suggest we are seeing the the effects produced by a society and its > technical problems becoming too complex for the average person to properly > comprehend. The energy problem is one example of an issue that is only > properly understood by people having either technical training or the > intelligence and interest to understand the complex relationships. ... But please understand that there is also political disagreement. To some of us who consider ourselves capitalists, it's not proper to try to change market behavior through legislation. Also, I've spent a great deal of time studying market economics, and it appears to me that free markets are excellent at handling scarcity. As a resource becomes more scarce, prices rise due to the economic law of supply and demand. As prices rise, alternatives to the scarce resource become more economically feasible. The market is self-correcting, and as such, it doesn't look to me like any energy policy based on resource scarcity can, or should be, modified through legislation. The only exception to this rule that I can think of, would be an exception based on national security. In other words, if we believe that other nations can threaten our oil supply, and drastically change resource scarcity in a short period of time, which would interfere with the natural law of supply and demand, then legislation to reduce our dependence on imported oil could be necessary, not because of market failure, but because of market intervention by foreign, aggressive, nations. So I don't think it's fair to say: a) that there's an energy problem; and b) that it's only properly understood through education. This totally disregards the political disagreements which may exist. Sincerely, Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 10:01:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SH0cRc027105; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:00:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SH0ZcC027067; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:00:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:00:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Sustainable Walmart Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:00:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050728170004.YPQU4854.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: People might actually welcome a Walmart like this one in their neighborhood: http://www.walmartstores.com/wmstore/wmstores/Promos_Display.jsp?categoryOID=-8621&contentOID=14775 or http://tinyurl.com/8h5jh From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 10:11:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SHAiq2002024; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:10:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SHAZTJ001876; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:10:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:10:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: UCa Davis Hydrogen Study Program Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:09:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050728170953.YTSJ4854.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://hydrogen.its.ucdavis.edu/ "The program is focused on understanding the potential transition to a hydrogen-based transportation system. Our interdisciplinary research team of 10 faculty and 15 graduate students is supported by a diverse consortium of sponsors including state, national and international government agencies, energy and automotive companies. Research is focused on four key areas: Hydrogen Markets and Demand; Hydrogen Infrastructure Modeling; Policy; and Environmental Analysis." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 10:28:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SHRPhd014718; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:27:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SHRJ9r014661; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:27:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:27:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c59399$82d25930$a3037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Today's N.Y. Time editorial Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:26:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5936F.996B0DB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_22, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5936F.996B0DB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5936F.996C9450" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5936F.996C9450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankEd Sorms wrote >In addition, if we believe events follow God's=20 >will, we hold no responsibility for what will occur. As this attitude=20 >takes hold, I predict that the US will drift further and further from=20 >reality while becoming more religious in its approach to solving=20 >problems, with each reaction feeding on the other. Religion has "gone Hollywood" along with L.Ron Hubbard and John Revolta. = et.al. > The result will be=20 >similar to what the Christian fundamentalist predict, but in fact the=20 >future will be a self fulfilling prophesy of ignorant men, not the will = >of God. The will of God hasn't changed. A close study of the bible will indicate = to you that the individual will self fulfill his own prophecy.=20 > The basic problem is how can we or anyone cause people to think=20 >rationally rather than react emotionally to the growing list of = problems=20 >facing society? Or is this too big a question to answer? The laws of human nature haven't changed. No one can "make" anyone do = anything, evidenced by an overcrowded prison system. I have mentioned = faith based belief systems in past posts.People on earth that have God's = word written on their hearts sustain hope. This is a nation of hope. Can = we solve the growing list of problems facing society? Not the with the = approach we are using. The major task we face is one of accepting = personal responsibility for oneself. Go to any shopping mall and watch the 4 wheel drive super SUV's perform = on pavement. An absolute necessity for today's citizen. One must be = equipped to deal with the potholes of life. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5936F.996C9450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Ed Sorms wrote

    >In addition, if we believe events follow God's
    >will, we = hold no=20 responsibility for what will occur. As this attitude
    >takes hold, = I=20 predict that the US will drift further and further from
    >reality = while=20 becoming more religious in its approach to solving
    >problems, = with each=20 reaction feeding on the other.

    Religion has "gone Hollywood" along with L.Ron Hubbard and John = Revolta.=20 et.al.

    > The result will be
    >similar to what the Christian=20 fundamentalist predict, but in fact the
    >future will be a self = fulfilling=20 prophesy of ignorant men, not the will
    >of God.

    The will of God hasn't changed. A close study of the bible will = indicate to=20 you that the individual will self fulfill his own prophecy.

     > The basic problem is how can we or anyone cause people to = think=20
    >rationally rather than react emotionally to the growing list of = problems=20
    >facing society? Or is this too big a question to answer?

    The laws of human nature haven't changed. No one can "make" anyone do = anything, evidenced by an overcrowded prison system. I have mentioned = faith=20 based belief systems in past posts.People on earth that have God's word = written=20 on their hearts sustain hope. This is a nation of hope. Can we solve the = growing=20 list of problems facing society? Not the with the approach we are using. = The=20 major task we face is one of accepting personal responsibility for = oneself.

    Go to any shopping mall and watch the 4 wheel drive super SUV's = perform on=20 pavement. An absolute necessity for today's citizen. One must be = equipped to=20 deal with the potholes of life.

    Richard



    ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5936F.996C9450-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5936F.996B0DB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c59399$822ec630$a3037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5936F.996B0DB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 11:12:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SIBeOI010408; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:11:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SIBXoX010324; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:11:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:11:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c5939f$b5f23640$0101a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: References: <410-220057313111730990 earthlink.net> <002b01c587b0$d855e970$6401a8c0@NuDell> <42D5321D.3010003@ieee.org> <000601c587ca$259e6bd0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <001201c587d0$81673860$193debdc@default> Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:11:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <7nM28B.A.5gC.T_R6CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting what John harris had to say re Cummins- has anyone heard whatever happened to the A55 fuel system that Cummins got into and resulted in several law suites ?? Rgds Noel Whitney ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Harris" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Hydrogen ICE Hybrids > Terry Blanton wrote: > >>Has anyone heard of any large ICEs being fueled by hydrogen? > > > Have a look at > http://www.cumminswestport.com/ > although they only list Hythane (hydrogen enriched natural gas) in their > alternative fuels for hydrogen, rumour has it that they are hydrogen ready > and this is certainly their aim, unlike some other promises on the net > they > are available off the shelf . > Biggest engine is 280HP 8.3Ltr. > Regards > JohnH > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 11:15:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SIEL7H012607; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:14:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SIEBv4012486; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:14:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:14:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=r3nB9h4GwI/HCt4pWb7unKjgO8GYlI+ICuXPK9ByxuyY9jWx90wunVjJuaBa/zTv6nyzNlCSCsCFfAXCREIHkRmMf/2g12gKHqnx5Ll6GKPnbnMi4AVq7SzzaTqCWRfiUli6T5vBdl+x59FhFclmqPuslbgHoWbvNhISmYeP0sQ= ; Message-ID: <20050728181337.5320.qmail web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:13:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728104310.04475ba0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <0HXKD.A.uCD.sBS6CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, you shouldn't put so much reliance on hybrid gas-electric engines. Diesel cars in the 80's could get 50 mpg A vaporizing carbeurator was demonstrated in the 30's that got 100 mpg The standard internal combustion engine is grossly inefficient, but there are technologies out there (most of which have patents which have lapsed) that could fix the situation. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 11:20:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SIJLWG016558; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:19:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SIJGLZ016491; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:19:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:19:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050728111630.029ff6e0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:16:39 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: test, please ignore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 11:37:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SIaqUa030315; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:37:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SIaopm030289; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:36:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:36:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728142643.044870c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:30:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial In-Reply-To: <20050728181337.5320.qmail web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728104310.04475ba0 pop.mindspring.com> <20050728181337.5320.qmail web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: >Jed, you shouldn't put so much reliance on hybrid >gas-electric engines. > >Diesel cars in the 80's could get 50 mpg . . . Yes, I know. I had a Diesel car in the 1980s. It was the first car I ever bought. (And while we are on the subject, I know a fellow here at the Peachtree DeKalb airport who is selling diesel engines for Cessnas.) I did not mean to imply that hybrid cars are the only solution. On the contrary, there are a whole raft of solutions sitting on the shelf unused. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 11:43:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SIgVwL000706; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:42:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SIgTJr000680; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:42:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:42:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050728104411.029cbbd0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:40:02 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Today's N. Y. Time editorial Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >MY COMMENT: There are currently no good answers from the perspective of people with ordinary vision. It's all a desperate attempt to appear that they are doing *something,* that the people in charge of energy research have some handle on the situation. (There's no need to panic, everything's under control, everybody stay calm.) Secretly, they hope that the predicted disaster from peak oil does not manifest. Behind the scenes, in high finance and in a few intelligent government offices, I'm sure they are very, very worried. On related topic, Another list was started recently by Ludwik, specifically for cold fusion. With that in mind, I now reflect on the "culture" that exists here on Vortex. Certainly, it is not focused on cold fusion anymore, but often the subject matter, such as the current topic, is of great value and significant the general interests of many of us. It's a good thing. Thanks, everybody :) s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 12:24:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SJOA8e026083; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:24:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SJO7RU026052; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:24:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:24:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:23:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Are things really getting too complicated? In-Reply-To: <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >I suggest we are seeing the the effects produced by a society and its >technical problems becoming too complex for the average person to properly >comprehend. The energy problem is one example of an issue that is only >properly understood by people having either technical training or the >intelligence and interest to understand the complex relationships. Naturally, I am strongly in favor of more education for everyone, especially Congressman and newspaper editors! Things do seem to be getting more complicated, and sometimes this does hurt society's ability to make rational decisions. But I have thought about this carefully, and I conclude that the problem may not be as bad as it looks. It is complicated. Here are some of my reasons. First, as I said, my mother and other older people said that things are no worse now than they were back in 1925. Most people back then had no clue how electricity, telephones or wind-up Victrola record players worked, and today people have no idea how cell phones or iPods work. An IPods is more complicated than a Victrola, but it is hard to see why this matters to an ordinary person, or why it would help him to understand either one. In 1925 most people had only indistinct notions about how much coal was being mined, what it was doing to the atmosphere, or who was profiting from it. The same is true today. But people did not say that democracy was ungovernable in 1925 just because folks had no clue how technologies worked. In 1935 people *did* begin to say that. A utopian "technologist" movement arose. Proponents said that engineers should be put in charge of society. I doubt it would have helped. Herbert Hoover was the only engineer ever elected US president, and his record on the economy was not good. (He was a brilliant engineer, without doubt, and a superb organizer. Before he became president he did excellent work in mining engineering, industrial standardization in the US, and he did such a magnificent job organizing food relief after the First World War that in some parts of Europe his name literally became a byword for charity.) Second, I question whether the key aspects of technology that have a major social or political impact really are more complicated. Outwardly, they seem simpler. The inner mechanisms that have become more complex are hidden, and have no impact on society. An iPod might be a million times more complex than Victrola measured by standards such as the cost of the machinery needed to manufacture the iPod, or the scale and precision of the components, or the clean room standards required to assemble the machine. But is an iPod fundamentally more complicated, from the user's point of view? Does it require more highly educated factory workers to assemble than a Victrola did? Is the social impact a million times greater? Is the impact on society more profound, and should lawmakers know more about the technology before they legislate intellectual-property laws? I do not see why. In the 1920s, with the advent of radio, intellectual-property and the recording and broadcasting of music was a major social concern. The laws and customs devised back then still serve us well today, even though our technology is far beyond analog recording and AM broadcasting. Today's energy sources such as coal, nuclear energy and ethanol do not seem substantially more complicated than the energy systems of 1925. Nuclear fission is scientifically inscrutable to most people, but so was combustion until 1800, and I doubt many people in 1925 really understood the role of oxygen in combustion. A computer-controlled hybrid automobile is much more complicated than any automobile made in 1975. But it is easier to drive. All of the safety regulations, traffic signals, highway construction, driver education, and so on we put in place to support automobiles works just as well with a hybrid as with the older, simpler models. Lawmakers and the engineers who devise safety standards can deal with hybrid automobiles as well as they deal with conventional automobiles. The increased complexity does not seem to impair our ability to cope with this technology, and handle it responsibly. Consumers can judge whether these cars are cost-effective or not, and insurance company underwriters can determine whether the cars are safe and how much they should charge to cover the cost of accident repairs (which are likely to be somewhat more expensive). Reading books and watching movies from the past, I do not get the sense that people knew more back then, or understood their own world better than we understand ours. James Thurber's wrote hilarious descriptions of his own ineptitude with machines. People have never been observant. In the 1930s, my aunt spent the summer working on a turkey farm. That Christmas she was making a decoration for the mantelpiece: a turkey made out of paper, an apple, raisins and toothpicks. After putting two legs on the bird, she looked at it with a puzzled expression and said, "Where do the other two legs go?" To take another vivid example, consider a scene from the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still." A crowd of people are standing around on the Mall looking at the flying saucer. The alien spaceman, disguised as a human, is in the crowd along with a boy he has befriended. The boy asks him how do spaceships work, and the alien tells him, outlining some basic Newtonian physics -- action and reaction, etc. The crowd of people standing nearby listens in and begins to snicker and poke fun at the alien. An old man says to the boy, "he had you going there; he really pulled your leg, didn't he?" Now this is only a movie, but I sense that the audience watching this movie back in 1951 probably did not realize that what the alien was saying was perfectly correct and elementary. It probably sounded like complicated, advanced scientific doubletalk, and the dramatic point was supposed to be that this alien is so far advanced compared to the humans in the crowd, they ridicule him instead of realizing he must be the flying saucer pilot. When you know that the alien's explanation is straight out of the textbooks, the scene seems weird, not dramatic or convincing. Most of the science portrayed in movies today, and in documentaries on the History Channel and Discovery Channel, is more sophisticated and accurate than it was in 1950s or '60s (except for the movie "2001.") It seems the audience has become more knowledgeable. Then again, maybe not. This may only be surface knowledge, or empty "book learning" as it used to be called. Some (but not all) ancient people had deep technical knowledge compared to modern people. Operating a sailing ship was far more difficult than operating today's vessels. Building a Coliseum in ancient Rome was more difficult than building a modern concrete structure. For that matter, programming a computer in 1975 was harder than programming today's machines. It called for more knowledge of the machinery, clever techniques, do-it-yourself assembly language programming and so on. Yet I do not get the sense that programmers from 1975 (including me) are somehow more capable of judging the in's and out's of computers than today's young experts are, or knowing the future of computers, or running a computer company. It seems to me that Ed's hypothesis predicts that the more you know about computer fundamentals, the better you should be at running IBM or Dell. That is not in evidence. Ken Olsen of DEC helped invent the modern computer as a grad student at MIT, and he was one of the most knowledgeable computer company executives of all time, but his disastrous performance as president rivaled that of Herbert Hoover. You might say he knew too much about the technology and not enough about customers or markets. Having said all that, I agree that in many cases our judgment regarding technology and social policy has become impaired. Ed is right; the trend is worrisome. There is a growing disconnect between people and hands-on commonsense knowledge of technology and nature. People nowadays do not know how to light a fire. A few years ago, parents at a county fair near Atlanta were outraged when a farmer told the children that milk comes from cows; they thought the farmer was telling their children disgusting sexual fantasies. In pre-modern Japan, the mark of an aristocratic young woman was that she did not know where rice comes from. Even if she did know, she would beguile a wealthy young man by saying, "oh goodness how pretty the farmland looks, but pray tell, what tree do they grow rice on?" * This sort of ignorance is now widespread, because we can afford to be ignorant. Indeed living close to nature has become a luxury. I expect this will only grow worse in the future. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - Footnote * The technique is still with us. There is even a word for this kind of woman in Japanese: "kamatoto," which is shorthand for the question, "Do they make fish paste out of fish?" A kamatoto is "(n) a kind of woman who pretends to be all sweet and innocent and naive" (wwwjdic.com) Now *there's* something I'll bet you readers did not know, and you probably would not read it on Ludwik's mail list, either. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 14:56:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SLuGI7031140; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:56:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SLuEQ6031117; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:56:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:56:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E954B8.5040302 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:57:12 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: Today's N.Y. Time editorial References: <000c01c59399$82d25930$a3037841 xptower> <42E91B95.50207@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <42E91B95.50207 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > RC Macaulay wrote: > >> Ed Sorms wrote >> >> >In addition, if we believe events follow God's >> >will, we hold no responsibility for what will occur. As this attitude >> >takes hold, I predict that the US will drift further and further from >> >reality while becoming more religious in its approach to solving >> >problems, with each reaction feeding on the other. >> >> Religion has "gone Hollywood" along with L.Ron Hubbard and John >> Revolta. et.al. > > > Yes, and this is spreading the concepts and reinforcing this approach to > reality. To the extent the approach avoids using knowledge and > understanding of reality, rather than only faith, we are in trouble. > >> >> > The result will be >> >similar to what the Christian fundamentalist predict, but in fact the >> >future will be a self fulfilling prophesy of ignorant men, not the will >> >of God. >> >> The will of God hasn't changed. A close study of the bible will >> indicate to you that the individual will self fulfill his own prophecy. > > > While I agree, the individual will self fulfill his own prophecy, this > is not what is distorting the approach to reality. People in power > increasingly believe that events are not in our control but are moving > to the end which is in God's hands. That is the attitude I'm complaining > about. > >> >> > The basic problem is how can we or anyone cause people to think >> >rationally rather than react emotionally to the growing list of >> problems >> >facing society? Or is this too big a question to answer? >> >> The laws of human nature haven't changed. No one can "make" anyone do >> anything, evidenced by an overcrowded prison system. > > > The fact is that people can and do make people do things and believe > things. Ask any con-artist, any good evangelist, or Karl Rove how it is > done. The problem is that the tools are not used effectively by > rational people who are only interested in the general welfare. They are > tools used mainly by people interested only in their own personal > advantage. We are constantly being "made" to buy a particular item, to > vote for someone special, to support a policy, to give money, to follow > God's will, etc. If you are not aware of these efforts and their real > effect, then you will never understand what is actually happening to you. > > I have mentioned > >> faith based belief systems in past posts.People on earth that have >> God's word written on their hearts sustain hope. This is a nation of >> hope. Can we solve the growing list of problems facing society? Not >> the with the approach we are using. The major task we face is one of >> accepting personal responsibility for oneself. > > > Yes, and in addition, you need to learn what is really happening rather > than what we wish to have happen. Hope only works when someone is > steering the ship away from the rocks. > > Ed > >> >> Go to any shopping mall and watch the 4 wheel drive super SUV's >> perform on pavement. An absolute necessity for today's citizen. One >> must be equipped to deal with the potholes of life. > > > >> >> Richard >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 14:57:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SLv3o5031479; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:57:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SLv1jR031438; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:57:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:57:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E954EC.5080904 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:58:04 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: Today's N. Y. Time editorial References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <003101c59394$4ebfc240$b323010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <42E914FF.2050005@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <42E914FF.2050005 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > Craig Haynie wrote: > >> >>> I suggest we are seeing the the effects produced by a society and its >>> technical problems becoming too complex for the average person to >>> properly comprehend. The energy problem is one example of an issue >>> that is only properly understood by people having either technical >>> training or the intelligence and interest to understand the complex >>> relationships. ... >> >> >> >> But please understand that there is also political disagreement. To >> some of us who consider ourselves capitalists, it's not proper to try >> to change market behavior through legislation. Also, I've spent a >> great deal of time studying market economics, and it appears to me >> that free markets are excellent at handling scarcity. As a resource >> becomes more scarce, prices rise due to the economic law of supply and >> demand. As prices rise, alternatives to the scarce resource become >> more economically feasible. The market is self-correcting, and as >> such, it doesn't look to me like any energy policy based on resource >> scarcity can, or should be, modified through legislation. The only >> exception to this rule that I can think of, would be an exception >> based on national security. In other words, if we believe that other >> nations can threaten our oil supply, and drastically change resource >> scarcity in a short period of time, which would interfere with the >> natural law of supply and demand, then legislation to reduce our >> dependence on imported oil could be necessary, not because of market >> failure, but because of market intervention by foreign, aggressive, >> nations. >> >> So I don't think it's fair to say: a) that there's an energy problem; >> and b) that it's only properly understood through education. This >> totally disregards the political disagreements which may exist. > > > Good point. However, what factors drive the political arguments? If > the political issue is one of allowing the market place to react and > define the solution, I agree this is good approach. However, if the > political argument is based on which solution gives the greatest > economic benefit to which industry, that is entirely different. The > recent situation appears to me to be influenced strongly by which > industry will benefit most, not by which solution will benefit society > in general. The result is legislation being enacted by "conservatives" > and "free market" ideologues that favor certain industries. The bottom > line is that the political arguments are based on greed, not on finding > the best solution. Perhaps, the fact that the solution is being > distorted by greed is not important to you. Nevertheless, I would hope > you would want to know what the best solution is as a way to decide if > society might be paying too high a price for this greed. > > Ed > >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Craig Haynie (Houston) >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 15:06:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SM5l2m003241; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:06:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SM5h79003174; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:05:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:05:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728164400.04475650 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:04:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Markets are effective, not sacred In-Reply-To: <003101c59394$4ebfc240$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide .com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> <003101c59394$4ebfc240$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: >>The energy problem is one example of an issue that is only properly >>understood by people having either technical training or the intelligence >>and interest to understand the complex relationships. ... > >But please understand that there is also political disagreement. To some >of us who consider ourselves capitalists, it's not proper to try to change >market behavior through legislation. "Proper" is odd choice of words here. I am a capitalist too, but I would say it is often not "effective" or "practical" to change market behavior through legislation. The market is usually better and faster. But in some cases legislation works well, and everyone agrees the change is beneficial and cost-effective. What could be "improper" about that? We should be pragmatists first and foremost. Never let ideology or economic theory stand in the way of common sense. To take a particularly clear-cut example, in the 19th century, accidents with railroad couplings were so common in the US that most rail yard workers were missing a finger or a hand. In 1893, the Congress passed The Appliance Safety Act mandating the use of standardized automatic couplers on railroad cars. This dramatically reduced the accident rate: "Its success in promoting switchyard safety was stunning. Between 1877 and 1887, approximately 38% of all railworker accidents involved coupling. . . . [B]y 1902, only two years after the SAA's effective date, coupling accidents constituted only 4% of all employee accidents. In absolute numbers, coupler related accidents dropped from nearly 11,000 in 1892 to just over 2,000 in 1902, even though the number of railroad employees steadily increased during that decade." http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-6.ZO.html Railroad coupling accidents were an engineering problem, amenable to a simple, direct, technical solution. When the legislation was proposed, it ignited an acrimonious debate about the property rights of the railroad owners. The fingers, hands and lives of 11,000 workers per years were infinitely more important than such considerations! >Also, I've spent a great deal of time studying market economics, and it >appears to me that free markets are excellent at handling scarcity. Yes they are. That is why as a practical matter the best way to solve the energy crisis quickly would be to "artificially" increase the cost of gasoline, by imposing a $2 tax. Alternatively, we could remove all the overt and hidden subsidies for oil, and charge everyone what it really costs, including the costs of war and pollution. That would raise the cost by $3, instead of $2. That would be fine with me. (Of course it is impossible -- and obscene -- to put dollar value on the thousands of dead and maimed American soldiers, but we could, at least, try to approximate the costs at, say, $1 million per victim.) >As a resource becomes more scarce, prices rise due to the economic law of >supply and demand. As prices rise, alternatives to the scarce resource >become more economically feasible. The market is self-correcting, and as >such, it doesn't look to me like any energy policy based on resource >scarcity can, or should be, modified through legislation. Yup, that is a fairly dependable rule of thumb. The market is not a law of nature, but yes, most of the time, it works roughly as well as COBOL, Pascal, the air traffic control system, or some other nifty, time-tested human innovation. All human institutions have limitations; none work perfectly. They exist to fill our needs. We should not be slaves or helpless robot automatons in response to the "market." We should make use it where it works, and circumvent it where it does not. It is not sacred, and there is nothing "improper" about overriding it, any more than there is anything improper about resetting a computer to interrupt a Pascal program that has gone haywire. The market does not apply to one vital area of society. Basic research into physics, chemistry, information theory and other academic disciplines never pays for itself directly. You cannot patent a force of nature, and basic research never yields results that can be kept secret without revealing the principles to the competition. Research must be conducted by professors who are either paid for by the public or by philanthropy. Results must be published freely for everyone to read. If we are ever going to see cold fusion, or space elevators, or a cure for cancer, we must give these people whatever money and resources they require, for whatever obscure purposes they feel like pursuing. > The only exception to this rule that I can think of, would be an > exception based on national security. Nothing is more vital to national security than energy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 15:29:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SMTEaC012853; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:29:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SMTAqv012807; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:29:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:29:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: RE: Markets are effective, not sacred Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:28:11 -0500 Message-ID: <000101c593c3$a3b74550$0400a8c0 Craig> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728164400.04475650 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >But please understand that there is also political > disagreement. To some > >of us who consider ourselves capitalists, it's not proper to > try to change > >market behavior through legislation. > > "Proper" is odd choice of words here. I am a capitalist too, > but I would > say it is often not "effective" or "practical" to change > market behavior > through legislation. The market is usually better and faster. While I try to avoid the political conversations on this board, it probably is on-topic to talk about an energy policy here, and that demands a political discussion. However, I feel more comfortable here just stating my opinions and letting it go. It's too easy to slide into a political debate. With regard to the words 'effective', 'practical', and 'proper', they all have political and ethical connotations. Politics is derived from ethics, and this is why I use the word 'proper'. The market is an ethical means of engaging in voluntary cooperation with other people. It is based on a premise of individual rights, and political equality. When Congress tries to change the way the market behaves, it can only do so by using force, and this, I believe, is improper, as is any type of action among people that is not voluntary in nature. So for me, proper is the correct word, if you subscribe to my ethical framework. It might be more difficult to see how the words 'effective' and 'practical' have ethical connotations, but when they are used, the question begs, "ethical to whom", and "practical for whom". For if we find a way to get something done more 'effectively' by using an act of Congress, then for some people, this type of action isn't 'effective' because they are being forced to act in ways that they would not naturally choose. So for me, the market is not only "effective" for most people, but also it's the only morally correct way for people to interact with each other, and hence, 'proper'. So be it. From my perspective, if we are looking for an energy policy, then it should only be done to maintain our national security, and it should be implemented in a way to simulate the inevitable future where oil is in much less supply. Hence, we shouldn't charge a $2 tax on oil consumption, but rather, an import fee on all oil, which can be increased in steady stages. This would make us less dependent on foreign oil, and ultimately completely independent from foreign oil without affecting the way a natural market would work in much scarcer times. The national oil companies may get richer in this process, from an increasing demand on domestic oil. Sincerely, Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 15:47:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SMknHD020882; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:47:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SMklj4020853; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:46:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:46:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E96091.9060306 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:47:45 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The complication I was addressing is based on the need to make a policy decision based on many conflicting possibilities. The number of these possibilities is increasing, as it always the case in every country, from classical Greek times to Germany under Hitler. A country or civilization fails when rational decisions for growth and survival become to difficult for leaders to comprehend and implement. A democracy suffers from the added ignorance and irrationally of the population. At some point, irrational decisions are made and the country sinks into destruction. The issue I'm raising is that we in the US seem to be approaching a level of irrationally that always proceeds death of a country. The irrationally can be seen in the approach being applied to energy policy, to terrorism, to the economy and to a growing irrationally based on religion. These issues are so important that failure to properly respond can have consequences much more serious than when such failures are applied to "normal" problems. For example, Hitler murdered Jews, which made him popular, but by invading Russia, he doomed his nation. Without making the point too fine, Bush is claiming to kill terrorists in Iraq before they kill us here, which makes him popular, but by not dealing with the energy problem he will doom the US. What should we do about this? Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> I suggest we are seeing the the effects produced by a society and its >> technical problems becoming too complex for the average person to >> properly comprehend. The energy problem is one example of an issue >> that is only properly understood by people having either technical >> training or the intelligence and interest to understand the complex >> relationships. > > > Naturally, I am strongly in favor of more education for everyone, > especially Congressman and newspaper editors! > > Things do seem to be getting more complicated, and sometimes this does > hurt society's ability to make rational decisions. But I have thought > about this carefully, and I conclude that the problem may not be as bad > as it looks. It is complicated. Here are some of my reasons. > > First, as I said, my mother and other older people said that things are > no worse now than they were back in 1925. Most people back then had no > clue how electricity, telephones or wind-up Victrola record players > worked, and today people have no idea how cell phones or iPods work. An > IPods is more complicated than a Victrola, but it is hard to see why > this matters to an ordinary person, or why it would help him to > understand either one. In 1925 most people had only indistinct notions > about how much coal was being mined, what it was doing to the > atmosphere, or who was profiting from it. The same is true today. But > people did not say that democracy was ungovernable in 1925 just because > folks had no clue how technologies worked. In 1935 people *did* begin to > say that. A utopian "technologist" movement arose. Proponents said that > engineers should be put in charge of society. I doubt it would have > helped. Herbert Hoover was the only engineer ever elected US president, > and his record on the economy was not good. (He was a brilliant > engineer, without doubt, and a superb organizer. Before he became > president he did excellent work in mining engineering, industrial > standardization in the US, and he did such a magnificent job organizing > food relief after the First World War that in some parts of Europe his > name literally became a byword for charity.) > > Second, I question whether the key aspects of technology that have a > major social or political impact really are more complicated. Outwardly, > they seem simpler. The inner mechanisms that have become more complex > are hidden, and have no impact on society. An iPod might be a million > times more complex than Victrola measured by standards such as the cost > of the machinery needed to manufacture the iPod, or the scale and > precision of the components, or the clean room standards required to > assemble the machine. But is an iPod fundamentally more complicated, > from the user's point of view? Does it require more highly educated > factory workers to assemble than a Victrola did? Is the social impact a > million times greater? Is the impact on society more profound, and > should lawmakers know more about the technology before they legislate > intellectual-property laws? I do not see why. In the 1920s, with the > advent of radio, intellectual-property and the recording and > broadcasting of music was a major social concern. The laws and customs > devised back then still serve us well today, even though our technology > is far beyond analog recording and AM broadcasting. > > Today's energy sources such as coal, nuclear energy and ethanol do not > seem substantially more complicated than the energy systems of 1925. > Nuclear fission is scientifically inscrutable to most people, but so was > combustion until 1800, and I doubt many people in 1925 really understood > the role of oxygen in combustion. > > A computer-controlled hybrid automobile is much more complicated than > any automobile made in 1975. But it is easier to drive. All of the > safety regulations, traffic signals, highway construction, driver > education, and so on we put in place to support automobiles works just > as well with a hybrid as with the older, simpler models. Lawmakers and > the engineers who devise safety standards can deal with hybrid > automobiles as well as they deal with conventional automobiles. The > increased complexity does not seem to impair our ability to cope with > this technology, and handle it responsibly. Consumers can judge whether > these cars are cost-effective or not, and insurance company underwriters > can determine whether the cars are safe and how much they should charge > to cover the cost of accident repairs (which are likely to be somewhat > more expensive). > > Reading books and watching movies from the past, I do not get the sense > that people knew more back then, or understood their own world better > than we understand ours. James Thurber's wrote hilarious descriptions of > his own ineptitude with machines. People have never been observant. In > the 1930s, my aunt spent the summer working on a turkey farm. That > Christmas she was making a decoration for the mantelpiece: a turkey made > out of paper, an apple, raisins and toothpicks. After putting two legs > on the bird, she looked at it with a puzzled expression and said, "Where > do the other two legs go?" To take another vivid example, consider a > scene from the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still." A crowd of people > are standing around on the Mall looking at the flying saucer. The alien > spaceman, disguised as a human, is in the crowd along with a boy he has > befriended. The boy asks him how do spaceships work, and the alien tells > him, outlining some basic Newtonian physics -- action and reaction, etc. > The crowd of people standing nearby listens in and begins to snicker and > poke fun at the alien. An old man says to the boy, "he had you going > there; he really pulled your leg, didn't he?" Now this is only a movie, > but I sense that the audience watching this movie back in 1951 probably > did not realize that what the alien was saying was perfectly correct and > elementary. It probably sounded like complicated, advanced scientific > doubletalk, and the dramatic point was supposed to be that this alien is > so far advanced compared to the humans in the crowd, they ridicule him > instead of realizing he must be the flying saucer pilot. When you know > that the alien's explanation is straight out of the textbooks, the scene > seems weird, not dramatic or convincing. > > Most of the science portrayed in movies today, and in documentaries on > the History Channel and Discovery Channel, is more sophisticated and > accurate than it was in 1950s or '60s (except for the movie "2001.") It > seems the audience has become more knowledgeable. Then again, maybe not. > This may only be surface knowledge, or empty "book learning" as it used > to be called. Some (but not all) ancient people had deep technical > knowledge compared to modern people. Operating a sailing ship was far > more difficult than operating today's vessels. Building a Coliseum in > ancient Rome was more difficult than building a modern concrete > structure. For that matter, programming a computer in 1975 was harder > than programming today's machines. It called for more knowledge of the > machinery, clever techniques, do-it-yourself assembly language > programming and so on. Yet I do not get the sense that programmers from > 1975 (including me) are somehow more capable of judging the in's and > out's of computers than today's young experts are, or knowing the future > of computers, or running a computer company. It seems to me that Ed's > hypothesis predicts that the more you know about computer fundamentals, > the better you should be at running IBM or Dell. That is not in > evidence. Ken Olsen of DEC helped invent the modern computer as a grad > student at MIT, and he was one of the most knowledgeable computer > company executives of all time, but his disastrous performance as > president rivaled that of Herbert Hoover. You might say he knew too much > about the technology and not enough about customers or markets. > > Having said all that, I agree that in many cases our judgment regarding > technology and social policy has become impaired. Ed is right; the trend > is worrisome. There is a growing disconnect between people and hands-on > commonsense knowledge of technology and nature. People nowadays do not > know how to light a fire. A few years ago, parents at a county fair near > Atlanta were outraged when a farmer told the children that milk comes > from cows; they thought the farmer was telling their children disgusting > sexual fantasies. In pre-modern Japan, the mark of an aristocratic young > woman was that she did not know where rice comes from. Even if she did > know, she would beguile a wealthy young man by saying, "oh goodness how > pretty the farmland looks, but pray tell, what tree do they grow rice > on?" * This sort of ignorance is now widespread, because we can afford > to be ignorant. Indeed living close to nature has become a luxury. I > expect this will only grow worse in the future. > > - Jed > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Footnote > > * The technique is still with us. There is even a word for this kind of > woman in Japanese: "kamatoto," which is shorthand for the question, "Do > they make fish paste out of fish?" A kamatoto is "(n) a kind of woman > who pretends to be all sweet and innocent and naive" (wwwjdic.com) Now > *there's* something I'll bet you readers did not know, and you probably > would not read it on Ludwik's mail list, either. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 16:19:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6SNJQ1K000332; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:19:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6SNJOGw000321; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:19:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:19:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Are things really getting too complicated? Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:19:03 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5099BB226 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Are things really getting too complicated? Thread-Index: AcWTxl6MMwRp6Fd0TPu9VMqR9qJTGAAAtPUg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2005 23:19:26.0160 (UTC) FILETIME=[CBC9BD00:01C593CA] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6SNJ7uF032662 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can only repeat: one good battery. That's all it would take to end the energy crisis, stop global warming and end terrorism -- one really good battery. One really good battery could power electric cars that would sell like hotcakes because the cost per mile would be so cheap. One really good battery would inhibit building new power plants because off peak power capacity wouldn't go to waste. One good battery would reduce power failures to a minimum because so much power would be held in storage during peak hours. One good battery would greatly encourage decentralized generation from intermitent sources like wind and solar. One good battery could destroy the economies of Islamic nations by wrecking the value of oil, ending intervention by foreign powers and support of terrorism. They could return their nations to the imagined glory of the 14th century and fade into irrelevancy, where they belong. One good battery could dent global warming by reducing CO2 generation, using existing generators and decentralized sources. You don't even need zero point energy or 'free energy' - just one really good battery. -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 6:48 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? The complication I was addressing is based on the need to make a policy decision based on many conflicting possibilities. The number of these possibilities is increasing, as it always the case in every country, from classical Greek times to Germany under Hitler. A country or civilization fails when rational decisions for growth and survival become to difficult for leaders to comprehend and implement. A democracy suffers from the added ignorance and irrationally of the population. At some point, irrational decisions are made and the country sinks into destruction. The issue I'm raising is that we in the US seem to be approaching a level of irrationally that always proceeds death of a country. The irrationally can be seen in the approach being applied to energy policy, to terrorism, to the economy and to a growing irrationally based on religion. These issues are so important that failure to properly respond can have consequences much more serious than when such failures are applied to "normal" problems. For example, Hitler murdered Jews, which made him popular, but by invading Russia, he doomed his nation. Without making the point too fine, Bush is claiming to kill terrorists in Iraq before they kill us here, which makes him popular, but by not dealing with the energy problem he will doom the US. What should we do about this? Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> I suggest we are seeing the the effects produced by a society and its >> technical problems becoming too complex for the average person to >> properly comprehend. The energy problem is one example of an issue >> that is only properly understood by people having either technical >> training or the intelligence and interest to understand the complex >> relationships. > > > Naturally, I am strongly in favor of more education for everyone, > especially Congressman and newspaper editors! > > Things do seem to be getting more complicated, and sometimes this does > hurt society's ability to make rational decisions. But I have thought > about this carefully, and I conclude that the problem may not be as > bad as it looks. It is complicated. Here are some of my reasons. > > First, as I said, my mother and other older people said that things > are no worse now than they were back in 1925. Most people back then > had no clue how electricity, telephones or wind-up Victrola record > players worked, and today people have no idea how cell phones or iPods > work. An IPods is more complicated than a Victrola, but it is hard to > see why this matters to an ordinary person, or why it would help him > to understand either one. In 1925 most people had only indistinct > notions about how much coal was being mined, what it was doing to the > atmosphere, or who was profiting from it. The same is true today. But > people did not say that democracy was ungovernable in 1925 just > because folks had no clue how technologies worked. In 1935 people > *did* begin to say that. A utopian "technologist" movement arose. > Proponents said that engineers should be put in charge of society. I > doubt it would have helped. Herbert Hoover was the only engineer ever > elected US president, and his record on the economy was not good. (He > was a brilliant engineer, without doubt, and a superb organizer. > Before he became president he did excellent work in mining > engineering, industrial standardization in the US, and he did such a > magnificent job organizing food relief after the First World War that > in some parts of Europe his name literally became a byword for > charity.) > > Second, I question whether the key aspects of technology that have a > major social or political impact really are more complicated. > Outwardly, they seem simpler. The inner mechanisms that have become > more complex are hidden, and have no impact on society. An iPod might > be a million times more complex than Victrola measured by standards > such as the cost of the machinery needed to manufacture the iPod, or > the scale and precision of the components, or the clean room standards > required to assemble the machine. But is an iPod fundamentally more > complicated, from the user's point of view? Does it require more > highly educated factory workers to assemble than a Victrola did? Is > the social impact a million times greater? Is the impact on society > more profound, and should lawmakers know more about the technology > before they legislate intellectual-property laws? I do not see why. In > the 1920s, with the advent of radio, intellectual-property and the > recording and broadcasting of music was a major social concern. The > laws and customs devised back then still serve us well today, even > though our technology is far beyond analog recording and AM broadcasting. > > Today's energy sources such as coal, nuclear energy and ethanol do not > seem substantially more complicated than the energy systems of 1925. > Nuclear fission is scientifically inscrutable to most people, but so > was combustion until 1800, and I doubt many people in 1925 really > understood the role of oxygen in combustion. > > A computer-controlled hybrid automobile is much more complicated than > any automobile made in 1975. But it is easier to drive. All of the > safety regulations, traffic signals, highway construction, driver > education, and so on we put in place to support automobiles works just > as well with a hybrid as with the older, simpler models. Lawmakers and > the engineers who devise safety standards can deal with hybrid > automobiles as well as they deal with conventional automobiles. The > increased complexity does not seem to impair our ability to cope with > this technology, and handle it responsibly. Consumers can judge > whether these cars are cost-effective or not, and insurance company > underwriters can determine whether the cars are safe and how much they > should charge to cover the cost of accident repairs (which are likely > to be somewhat more expensive). > > Reading books and watching movies from the past, I do not get the > sense that people knew more back then, or understood their own world > better than we understand ours. James Thurber's wrote hilarious > descriptions of his own ineptitude with machines. People have never > been observant. In the 1930s, my aunt spent the summer working on a > turkey farm. That Christmas she was making a decoration for the > mantelpiece: a turkey made out of paper, an apple, raisins and > toothpicks. After putting two legs on the bird, she looked at it with > a puzzled expression and said, "Where do the other two legs go?" To > take another vivid example, consider a scene from the movie "The Day > the Earth Stood Still." A crowd of people are standing around on the > Mall looking at the flying saucer. The alien spaceman, disguised as a > human, is in the crowd along with a boy he has befriended. The boy > asks him how do spaceships work, and the alien tells him, outlining some basic Newtonian physics -- action and reaction, etc. > The crowd of people standing nearby listens in and begins to snicker > and poke fun at the alien. An old man says to the boy, "he had you > going there; he really pulled your leg, didn't he?" Now this is only a > movie, but I sense that the audience watching this movie back in 1951 > probably did not realize that what the alien was saying was perfectly > correct and elementary. It probably sounded like complicated, advanced > scientific doubletalk, and the dramatic point was supposed to be that > this alien is so far advanced compared to the humans in the crowd, > they ridicule him instead of realizing he must be the flying saucer > pilot. When you know that the alien's explanation is straight out of > the textbooks, the scene seems weird, not dramatic or convincing. > > Most of the science portrayed in movies today, and in documentaries on > the History Channel and Discovery Channel, is more sophisticated and > accurate than it was in 1950s or '60s (except for the movie "2001.") > It seems the audience has become more knowledgeable. Then again, maybe not. > This may only be surface knowledge, or empty "book learning" as it > used to be called. Some (but not all) ancient people had deep > technical knowledge compared to modern people. Operating a sailing > ship was far more difficult than operating today's vessels. Building a > Coliseum in ancient Rome was more difficult than building a modern > concrete structure. For that matter, programming a computer in 1975 > was harder than programming today's machines. It called for more > knowledge of the machinery, clever techniques, do-it-yourself assembly > language programming and so on. Yet I do not get the sense that > programmers from > 1975 (including me) are somehow more capable of judging the in's and > out's of computers than today's young experts are, or knowing the > future of computers, or running a computer company. It seems to me > that Ed's hypothesis predicts that the more you know about computer > fundamentals, the better you should be at running IBM or Dell. That is > not in evidence. Ken Olsen of DEC helped invent the modern computer as > a grad student at MIT, and he was one of the most knowledgeable > computer company executives of all time, but his disastrous > performance as president rivaled that of Herbert Hoover. You might say > he knew too much about the technology and not enough about customers or markets. > > Having said all that, I agree that in many cases our judgment > regarding technology and social policy has become impaired. Ed is > right; the trend is worrisome. There is a growing disconnect between > people and hands-on commonsense knowledge of technology and nature. > People nowadays do not know how to light a fire. A few years ago, > parents at a county fair near Atlanta were outraged when a farmer told > the children that milk comes from cows; they thought the farmer was > telling their children disgusting sexual fantasies. In pre-modern > Japan, the mark of an aristocratic young woman was that she did not > know where rice comes from. Even if she did know, she would beguile a > wealthy young man by saying, "oh goodness how pretty the farmland > looks, but pray tell, what tree do they grow rice on?" * This sort of > ignorance is now widespread, because we can afford to be ignorant. > Indeed living close to nature has become a luxury. I expect this will only grow worse in the future. > > - Jed > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Footnote > > * The technique is still with us. There is even a word for this kind > of woman in Japanese: "kamatoto," which is shorthand for the question, > "Do they make fish paste out of fish?" A kamatoto is "(n) a kind of > woman who pretends to be all sweet and innocent and naive" > (wwwjdic.com) Now > *there's* something I'll bet you readers did not know, and you > probably would not read it on Ludwik's mail list, either. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 17:08:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6T081Ee019808; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:08:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6T07x45019784; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <28082689.1122595662733.JavaMail.root wamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:07:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Markets are effective, not sacred Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6T07gcS019676 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie writes: "With regard to the words 'effective', 'practical', and 'proper', they all have political and ethical connotations. Politics is derived from ethics, and this is why I use the word 'proper'. The market is an ethical means of engaging in voluntary cooperation with other people. It is based on a premise of individual rights, and political equality. When Congress tries to change the way the market behaves, it can only do so by using force, and this, I believe, is improper . . ." Well, I see your point, of course. People do have the right to engage in the free exchange of goods. With all seriousness, while that is true, that right is not unlimited, and it cannot apply to all times, places and situations. In a war, for example, it may have to be overridden. This is supposedly a war, and the profits from the sale of oil are being used by the enemy to kill our soldiers and allies, so we cannot have business as usual. There is no such thing as right that is absolute and unlimited. We all have the right to eat, drive cars, and have sex, but not at the same time! In 1893, the railroads had every right to operate however they pleased with whatever equipment they chose, but NOT at the cost of mangling 11,000 workers. There was a conflict of rights, and the rights of the workers trumped those of the owners. Even though markets are ethical and all else being equal they should be unhampered, there are times when they must be overruled, and freedom curtailed to prevent some larger loss of some more important freedom. The lives & wellbeing of American troops at war are FAR more important than voluntary free markets for oil. If we had to ration oil, deny every drop to civilians, and force every civilian to ride the bus or walk, not a single one of us would have any right to complain. Compared to the sacrifices our soldiers are making, the temporary loss of the right to buy, sell, and consume oil is trivial. If this war is so unimportant that we cannot even ask our suburban moms to stop driving SUVs for the duration, then it is not a real war at all, and it is obscene to ask any soldier to risk injury or death. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 18:18:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6T1HQHf014020; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:17:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6T1HOWI014002; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:17:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:17:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uS7pHJOSmzFTcHG4AA6zPjrNZ9oqWTLn8IZGUOF42qhwSirlEcZYP0tPYTWrP5GrTnrZayBo3zP+vvWpEyqMZIb3gkP2MW+z+JPaioSNpfv58GefSjYIwOKRZJtbBiASSgWKaX+vuP4v5RAIZPPMku2wMdHMfmq82RR3zTpEIW8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:16:57 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726111110.04480290 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726111110.04480290 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6T1H2An013786 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: we ceratinly do. dead set in the middle of them. one month period thats about half our rainfall for the year. humidity in the 80s, temps in the 110s. gorgeous sunsets reddened by mile high 5 mile thick walls of moving dust and debris. On 7/26/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > The New York Times has an editorial today about global warming. It begins: > > "A Few Degrees > > By any measure, this has already been a summer of extremes. The brutality > of the record-setting heat that lay over the desert Southwest for the past > two weeks may have broken at last, but it has not really dissipated. . . > . Life is barely tolerable in Phoenix during an ordinary summer, when the > monsoons arrive on schedule. . . ." > > I did not know they had monsoons in Phoenix, Arizona. > > Anyway, the editorial ends: "We survive at such high temperatures only with > huge expenditures of energy. Those who cannot afford the energy run the > risk of death." To which I would respond: "Yo! Mr. Times! That would be all > of us. Our whole civilization. And it is not a 'risk.' Death is inevitable > unless we develop radically new sources of energy." > > Anyway, the New York Times will never print a letter from me, but I asked > Ed Storms and some others to send a brief message. > > > Here is a message I sent to some newspaper reporters yesterday: > > > The on-line German magazine Telepolis published an article today advocating > a crash program to develop cold fusion to combat global warming. This is > what your editorial should have said. See: "Time to act! The world needs an > Apollo-type program for cold fusion": > > English version: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20585/1.html > > German version: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20562/1.html > > . . . > > > Haiko's article is a huge contrast to the New York Times, isn't it? > > - Jed > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 18:20:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6T1JZ7P015306; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:19:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6T1JYW7015288; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:19:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:19:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mX0+6ZsicjJN7DjwzzRPH7L5K+4h13tLQYX/UeGHnvGwANYB6G0hjwABRZcxqp4ZmxV1fHnO58+IdGGWlKu4ws1msJ7W5d7gcuFINxQuDdlJCYkb2pgz8+gnlAIWlsdHeuufvTbueif20DH6WeSPptpG4EAdcrcpy0fPgwmhkFw= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:18:55 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial In-Reply-To: <20050726173638.90817.qmail web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726111110.04480290 pop.mindspring.com> <20050726173638.90817.qmail web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6T1JGLX015175 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: damn straight. my car broke down on the highway two days ago. i spent 3 hours in my car in the shade, no ac (about out of gas) waiting for a tow. but... i keep a 7 gallon jug of water in my trunk. it may be warm, but its WET! On 7/26/05, Merlyn wrote: > Ya know, it ain't the heat that kills ya... > And it ain't the humidity either. > > It's dehydration! > > The current heatwave in arizona has pushed temps up to > 115 farenheit. It hit 121 here in Kansas back in > 1936, Colorado had 118 back in 1888! (Record high > temperatures courtesy of Google) > > Yes, the world is getting warmer in general, but the > reason people die in heat waves is that they don't > know to drink water. > > I spent a couple summers as a camp counselor in SE > Kansas in the late 90's, without any form of AC, (we > lived in canvas army tents which were much hotter than > the outside air. It routinely hit 110 in the shade > during the afternoon. Heat Stroke and Heat Exhaustion > were expected and when they did show up the med > trailer was cooled. > > The point is that people have survived (and survive > everyday) conditions similar to the ones which are > decried as heat waves and the only reason people die > in them is that they are unprepared. It has very > little to do with needing more efficient AC systems. > > --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > The New York Times has an editorial today about > > global warming. It begins: > > > > "A Few Degrees > > > > By any measure, this has already been a summer of > > extremes. The brutality > > of the record-setting heat that lay over the desert > > Southwest for the past > > two weeks may have broken at last, but it has not > > really dissipated. . . > > . Life is barely tolerable in Phoenix during an > > ordinary summer, when the > > monsoons arrive on schedule. . . ." > > > > I did not know they had monsoons in Phoenix, > > Arizona. > > > > Anyway, the editorial ends: "We survive at such high > > temperatures only with > > huge expenditures of energy. Those who cannot afford > > the energy run the > > risk of death." To which I would respond: "Yo! Mr. > > Times! That would be all > > of us. Our whole civilization. And it is not a > > 'risk.' Death is inevitable > > unless we develop radically new sources of energy." > > > > Anyway, the New York Times will never print a letter > > from me, but I asked > > Ed Storms and some others to send a brief message. > > > > > > Here is a message I sent to some newspaper reporters > > yesterday: > > > > > > The on-line German magazine Telepolis published an > > article today advocating > > a crash program to develop cold fusion to combat > > global warming. This is > > what your editorial should have said. See: "Time to > > act! The world needs an > > Apollo-type program for cold fusion": > > > > English version: > > http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20585/1.html > > > > German version: > > http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20562/1.html > > > > . . . > > > > > > Haiko's article is a huge contrast to the New York > > Times, isn't it? > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > > > ____________________________________________________ > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 18:20:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6T1K4M4015500; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:20:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6T1K1F9015429; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:20:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:20:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.8.164] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Are things really getting too complicated? Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:19:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050729011934.RQBS9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Zell, Chris" > I can only repeat: > > one good battery. Yeah, Chris. What ever happened to the polymer battery promised by the "American Battery Company"? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 18:24:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6T1OLqv018583; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:24:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6T1OIOb018557; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:24:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:24:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=O5+iTLKj9GRT5Y5uk7eExJv6lj1xxAtdTqBJSXZJLRF7CnW8nSMxKAJ8zZgedWGz2WCpi5WIGQvSsEJeVxCSmdm7BNiZmMNlqeqYyBCLICtwmVUpOC9hyp+7IWa/EXUiOVdWCQaW6wPD0n9XdVxJkpvW280UDhCP0r8Ql4kBBGg= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:23:39 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Insipid New York Times editorial In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728104310.04475ba0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <48vksc$18b2nu4 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050727173535.044820b0 pop.mindspring.com> <005e01c5930c$c1cb6470$ef7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728104310.04475ba0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6T1O0W3018437 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: damn. just... damn. well, a buck a gallon tax on individuals. 3 a gallon tax on coorporate interests. trucking fleets. as for the rest of it. sounds good to me. On 7/28/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >OK guys, it's 'they should have' all over again and ignoring the > >responsibilities of CEOs of energy comapnies. I might be wrong, but I > >believe Shell is deeply into PV systems and regrds itself as an energy > >company, not an "oil" company. I have heard second and third hand similar > >sentiments attributed to other oil CEOs. > > So have I. But when you look at the amounts they spend on R&D, and scale of > their commitment, you see this is mostly window dressing and public > relations blather. They are not taking serious, large scale steps, and -- > equally important -- they are not lobbying Congress to give them a tax > break to build things like wind-turbine based hydrogen fuel systems. > Instead, they are asking for massive tax breaks to drill for more oil and > to distort the market in favor of waste and pollution. And of course > Congress has given them all they ask for, on a silver platter. > > The fossil fuel companies should be building the equivalent of 4 or 5 > nuclear power plants per year. powered by wind. (Or powered by uranium, for > that matter.) That would make a substantial impact by the end of the > decade. In 10 or 20 years it would eliminate oil imports. If they had > started 20 years ago, and at the same time the auto companies had building > millions of hybrid cars, the U.S. would be exporting oil today. We would be > a member of OPEC, and we would only have one quarrel in the Middle East. We > would be demanding that Saudi Arabia cut production and stop undermining > our profits. > > These are not technological fantasies. They were described by mainstream > sources such as the Scientific American back in the 1970s and 80s. Hybrid > cars were invented and patented in 1906, for crying out loud. The solutions > to the energy crisis have been sitting on the shelf, untouched, for most of > the 20th century. > > > >Jed has been fuming about the slow progress of CF for a decade or so now, > >but you don't hasten crops by pulling on the shoots. > > Oh come now, Mike. Every CF researcher I know has dozens of experiments he > is yearning to try. Those people could use hundreds of grad students and > millions of dollars in funding, and if they had been given what they need > ten years ago, by now we probably would have prototype CF automobiles. The > difficulties have been exaggerated. > > > >There is no technical substitute for oil now or in the near future, and it > >goes well beyond transportation. > > I disagree completely! There have been technical substitutes available off > the shelf since 1906. Of course we cannot eliminate oil overnight, but we > sure could drastically cut consumption overnight -- I mean literally, > within 24 hours -- and we could eliminate the problem completely in 10 or > at most 20 years. The automobile fleet is replaced every 5 to 10 years. > (Only a handful of cars last longer than 10 years.) If the U.S. was serious > about the war in Iraq, and this so-called war on terror, we would take > drastic steps such as: > > 1. Impose an emergency wartime tax of $2 per gallon to pay for the war. If > consumption does not fall by at least 20%, impose rationing. > > 2. Impose a draft, and send hundreds of thousands of soldiers to Iraq and > Afghanistan. If we do not do this, we will lose both wars for sure, so we > might as well bring all the troops home now. We are losing in slow motion now. > > 3. Ban the production of SUVs immediately. Ban the use of SUVs in urban > areas except by authorized people who have a good reason to drive such > vehicles, such as carpenters hauling ladders, lumber or heavy equipment. > > 4. Ban the production of conventional non-hybrid automobile engines > starting in three years, and trucks starting in 5 years. All vehicles must > be hybrid or pure electric. > > 5. Within 10 years, build enough wind power to supply all of the synthetic > fuel or electricity needed for our automobiles and trucks. As I have shown > here before, this is not as much energy as you might think. Conventional > transportation technology is grotesquely wasteful and inefficient, so any > replacement will use only half or one-third as much raw energy. > > A few weeks after Pearl Harbor, the White House made a few phone calls and > *completely closed down all U.S. civilian automobile production for the > duration of the war.* Think about that. They did not negotiate, or set up a > schedule. They called the presidents of Ford, GM and Chrysler and told them > to close their production lines immediately, and not to assemble a single > car without government authorization, and to close all showrooms the next > morning, and not to sell a single automobile to any civilian or > corporation, period. That is the kind of thing you must do to win a war. > Half measures do not work. It is a moral abomination for U.S. civilians and > political leaders to stand around doing nothing to win the war, while > thousands of our soldiers are killed and wounded, and thousands of Iraqi > people killed by terrorists. We must take steps to root out the basic > causes of the war, which are oil, oil money, and Mideast politics. > > Such radical steps may seem like an impossible fantasy now, but so did > airplanes crashing into buildings before 9/11. If terrorists attack with a > stolen nuclear weapon, the steps I listed above will not seem radical. On > the contrary they will seem too little and too late. Or, if serious global > warming sets in, people 100 years from now will say we should have done all > of this and more. > > Freeman Dyson said: "The accepted wisdom says that, no matter what we > decide to do about economic problems, we cannot expect to see any > substantial results [for 15 years]. The accepted wisdom is no doubt > correct, if we continue to play the game by the rules of today. But anyone > who lived through World War II knows that the rules can be changed very > fast when the necessity arises." The question boils down to this: Is this > "war on terror" really a war, or is it just a charade in which we kill and > main ~30,000 lower income Americans from small towns, and then surrender to > the Taliban and al Qaeda and pretend it never happened? > > - Jed > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jul 28 19:07:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6T26nqF002476; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:07:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6T26lrN002443; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:06:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:06:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001c01c593e2$18b60080$ac027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Ozone-new technology Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:06:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C593B8.2F194D20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C593B8.2F194D20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C593B8.2F194D20" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C593B8.2F194D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThomas Malloy wrote.. >Ah! Ozone.. > >Surely there is a better technology to use for generating ozone gas=20 >for disinfecting water in quanities. The systems I have seen appear=20 >stone age. Somebody out there has generated ozone using another=20 >technology that may fit what I am looking for. > >Richard My friend, Phil Ratte' has studied the subject of ozone generation.=20 His preferred use is health related. However AFAIK, a specific=20 frequency of ultraviolet light is the most efficient method of=20 producing it. Phil can be reached at 763 574 0291. Thomas, thanks for the lead . I will contact him. Our tests will start = soon on the high rotational speed liquid vortex designs. Some have = reported a " glow" or a "corona" or a faint UV light emitting from the = center of a vortex under high rotational speed.We have never experienced = this event but we have never ran speeds above 3450 RPM. Should the = vortex produce UV or Gamma as predicted by some, we may have a ozone = generator within the other features we are investigating. The end game = is to find a cheap and practical method of pretreating seawater for = reducing minerals( salt) for Desalinization plants together with a = method of changing the molecular structure of the solids byproduct. Schauberger supposedly reported he saw a " glow" in a liquid vortex. = This may be merely a reflection of light arriving from external to the = vortex center. We notice the inside of the liquid vortex is mirror = finish in its reflective features. Shining a light into the center = causes the reflection to appear to glow however covering the entire = glass test tank to block exterior light results in darkness with no = visible glow. We are not discounting an " event" may be present that " = enhances" the glow while receiving light. We often wonder if this may be = happening because the bubbles formed from adding air to the vortex also = appear to glow when we turn on a Q-beam lamp. Many in this group have suggested various experiments to try including = microwave, laser and sonics. Some time back Nasa and the University of = Houston used peroxides and ozone. UT -Austin had a program using = pressure and 0 2. So much research winds up in a research paper with a = simple statement like.." if we had some more funding we may could come = up with some more questions". This seems to be the norm for some = government funded University research. Some of the papers I have read = should be entitled " send money,ignorance is a terrible thing to waste" = Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C593B8.2F194D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Thomas Malloy wrote..

    >Ah! Ozone..
    >
    >Surely there is a better technology to = use for=20 generating ozone gas
    >for disinfecting water in quanities. The = systems I=20 have seen appear
    >stone age. Somebody out there has generated = ozone using=20 another
    >technology that may fit what I am looking=20 for.
    >
    >Richard

    My friend, Phil Ratte' has studied = the=20 subject of ozone generation.
    His preferred use is health related. = However=20 AFAIK, a specific
    frequency of ultraviolet light is the most = efficient=20 method of
    producing it. Phil can be reached at 763 574 0291.

    Thomas, thanks for the lead . I will contact him. Our tests will = start=20 soon on the high rotational speed liquid vortex designs. Some have = reported a "=20 glow" or a "corona" or a faint UV light emitting from the center of a = vortex=20 under high rotational speed.We have never experienced this event but we = have=20 never ran speeds above 3450 RPM. Should the vortex produce UV or Gamma = as=20 predicted by some, we may have a ozone generator within the other = features we=20 are investigating. The end game is to find a cheap and practical method = of=20 pretreating seawater for reducing minerals( salt)  for = Desalinization=20 plants together with a method of changing the molecular structure of the = solids=20 byproduct.

    Schauberger supposedly reported he saw a " glow" in a liquid vortex. = This may=20 be merely a reflection of light arriving from external to the vortex = center. We=20 notice the inside of the liquid vortex is mirror finish in its = reflective=20 features. Shining a light into the center causes the reflection to = appear to=20 glow  however covering the entire glass test tank  to block = exterior=20 light results in darkness with no visible glow. We are not discounting = an "=20 event" may be present that " enhances" the glow while receiving light. = We often=20 wonder if this may be happening because the bubbles formed from adding = air to=20 the vortex also appear to glow when we turn on a Q-beam lamp.

    Many in this group have suggested various experiments to try = including=20 microwave, laser and sonics. Some time back Nasa and the University = of=20 Houston used peroxides and ozone.  UT -Austin had a program using = pressure=20 and 0 2. So much research winds up in a research paper with a simple=20 statement  like.." if we had some more funding we may could come up = with=20 some more questions". This seems to be the norm for some government = funded=20 University research. Some of the papers I have read should be entitled " = send=20 money,ignorance is a terrible thing to waste" <grin>

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C593B8.2F194D20-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C593B8.2F194D20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c593e2$17e012e0$ac027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C593B8.2F194D20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 01:49:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6T8mNLx024061; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:48:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6T8mMom024048; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:48:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:48:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42E9ED48.8090702 iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:48:08 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: mars rovers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm attending an Australian Mars Society conference AMEC 2005 on Mars rovers and exploration. http://www.marssociety.org.au/ I'm going to mention LENR to those at the conference. There is still an opening for papers so it may be semiformal presentation. Is there anything I specifically should or should not say? The main line I will take is that: * Cold fusion work is not dead. * Its nuclear reactions in a solid Hydride where quantum tunneling and/or electron screening effects combine to reduce the charge barrier of the nuclei to low enough levels to allow Deuteron/ Palladium and Deuteron/ Deuteron reactions. A few grams of fuel would power a vehicle for a year or so. * Reviewers are now acknowledging that it's a real effect, still not fully reliable or understood, but some who were sceptical are now less inclined to call it fraud or a mistake. * The Second DOE report, December 2004, gave limited [ambiguus] support for the data but argue that they still could not understand it. A majority of the reviewers were much more receptive and positive than the person that wrote the conclusion. They did say more work should be done but recommended against government funding. * Doors are opening a little. Some of its opponents are slowly coming around, conferences have been held at MIT, American Physical Society, etc. * We have up to 40 watts thermal per cc of palladium in some configurations. * We need people who can work on reducing the energy inputs to the devices; computer controlled chemical and thermo-chemical systems. * We need better heat flow control so we don’t allow the cell to chill down below the starting temperature. It never was room temperature fusion. * We need people who can design and build efficient heat/steam engines to convert the heat of the cells in to electricity. * There are several dozen companies working on it worldwide. * The technology could pop out of oblivion as a usable energy technology at any time. It might be available to power Mars operations. * Any help would be appreciated. Note the meeting I'll be attending is three weeks away and the dead line for anything formal could change at any time. Quick comments would be appreciated. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 02:37:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6T9bMqx009335; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:37:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6T9bLxA009321; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:37:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:37:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000701c59421$29213180$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <42E9ED48.8090702 iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: mars rovers Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:37:38 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <2HfGrC.A.lRC.Qjf6CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'd add direct thermal/electric to your range of output options, even the "old" dissimilar junction devices would be an option for low power work as the weight and reliability may be more important than output. and there are of course solid state devices - whether these fall into the category of "heat engine" is debatable. Regards JohnH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Bruce" To: Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: mars rovers > I'm attending an Australian Mars Society conference AMEC 2005 on Mars > rovers and exploration. > http://www.marssociety.org.au/ > I'm going to mention LENR to those at the conference. There is still an > opening for papers so it may be semiformal presentation. Is there > anything I specifically should or should not say? > The main line I will take is that: > > * Cold fusion work is not dead. > * Its nuclear reactions in a solid Hydride where quantum tunneling > and/or electron screening effects combine to reduce the charge > barrier of the nuclei to low enough levels to allow Deuteron/ > Palladium and Deuteron/ Deuteron reactions. A few grams of fuel > would power a vehicle for a year or so. > * Reviewers are now acknowledging that it's a real effect, still not > fully reliable or understood, but some who were sceptical are now > less inclined to call it fraud or a mistake. > * The Second DOE report, December 2004, gave limited [ambiguus] > support for the data but argue that they still could not > understand it. A majority of the reviewers were much more > receptive and positive than the person that wrote the conclusion. > They did say more work should be done but recommended against > government funding. > * Doors are opening a little. Some of its opponents are slowly > coming around, conferences have been held at MIT, American > Physical Society, etc. > * We have up to 40 watts thermal per cc of palladium in some > configurations. > * We need people who can work on reducing the energy inputs to the > devices; computer controlled chemical and thermo-chemical systems. > * We need better heat flow control so we don’t allow the cell to > chill down below the starting temperature. It never was room > temperature fusion. > * We need people who can design and build efficient heat/steam > engines to convert the heat of the cells in to electricity. > * There are several dozen companies working on it worldwide. > * The technology could pop out of oblivion as a usable energy > technology at any time. It might be available to power Mars > operations. > * Any help would be appreciated. > > Note the meeting I'll be attending is three weeks away and the dead line > for anything formal could change at any time. Quick comments would be > appreciated. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 04:17:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TBHCpa011192; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:17:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TBHAqH011178; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:17:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:17:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EA1026.2020506 iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:16:54 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: mars rovers References: <42E9ED48.8090702 iinet.net.au> <000701c59421$29213180$0201a8c0@default> In-Reply-To: <000701c59421$29213180$0201a8c0 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I know a lot about thermo-electric technology is an option but it has an efficiency limit of about 18%. The cause is greatly debated but attempts to push over that efficiency limit result in problems that have yet to be completely understood. I know the Brits have pushed over the limit by cycling the things from engine to pump and back rapidly but I have not seen proper data on the pump mode power consumption and thus full efficiency. It is however not subject to Carnot effiency limits the same way as other heat engines. John Harris wrote: >I'd add direct thermal/electric to your range of output options, even the >"old" dissimilar junction devices would be an option for low power work as >the weight and reliability may be more important than output. and there are >of course solid state devices - whether these fall into the category of >"heat engine" is debatable. >Regards >JohnH >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wesley Bruce" >To: >Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 4:48 PM >Subject: mars rovers > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 05:34:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TCYBf9005271; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:34:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TCY8OF005249; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:34:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:34:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <516885c5-d876-4e67-afc0-df2d001a8262> Message-ID: <000001c59439$baf6a460$e07cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5099BB226 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:01:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig wrote: > > I can only repeat: > > one good battery. > > That's all it would take to end the energy crisis, stop global > warming and end terrorism -- one really good battery. And I keep repeating, keep your eye on BLP. The website is being modified and the hints that major negotiations are in progress are becoming stronger. And one of the products of BLP technology is ****one very, very good battery****. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 06:46:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TDkVRG032251; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:46:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TDkTPa032238; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:46:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:46:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094009.04487eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:46:01 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Are things really getting too complicated? In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5099BB226 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5099BB226 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > one good battery. > > That's all it would take to end the energy crisis, stop global >warming and end terrorism -- one really good battery. I agree. Sometimes a grand simplification in technology eliminates a whole class of problems. A really good battery probably would accomplish this. However, cold fusion would be better in some ways. For example, it would open up the solar system for exploration, and it would allow things like implanted heart pumps that run for decades. (A long-lasting super-battery that is recharged by induction every day would be nearly as good.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 07:25:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TEOqWY015942; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:25:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TEOpsw015926; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:24:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:24:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:24:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? In-Reply-To: <42E96091.9060306 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >The complication I was addressing is based on the need to make a policy >decision based on many conflicting possibilities. The number of these >possibilities is increasing, as it always the case in every country, from >classical Greek times to Germany under Hitler. Honestly, I do not see this happening. Policy decisions and economics have been complicated throughout history. I do not see why they are more complicated today. There were often times in history when people could not tell whether policies were helping or hurting. The British experience with the East India Company and later with their colonies was so complicated that economists and historians still argue about whether the British made money or lost money on the deal, and it is even more difficult to determine whether the people in India benefited more than they were harmed. (There was no question that a small class of people in England made a fortune on the colonies.) Pre-modern Japanese governments gathered immense quantities of data from the population, and they micromanaged every aspect of the economy and millions of people's lives. The inventoried every major tree in the country. They specified the type of cloth that every class of person was allowed to make into clothing, how many suits of clothes people would be allowed to own. They spelled out how big their houses could be, how they were designed, what kind of wood was allowed in each type of house. They decreed what kind of dishes people of different classes and occupations would be allowed to use. They did not just make these rules; they enforced them, with inspectors, paperwork galore, centralized record keeping and so on. This was an incredibly complicated undertaking. I assume that the US congressmen are smarter than they look, they understand that ethanol is an energy sink, and they voted for it because they are corrupted by payola from big agriculture. This is nothing new. The U.S. Congress has often voted for economically dysfunctional and unfair taxes and benefits. The ancient Roman legislators blocked the construction of better channels and improved freight landing docks and warehouses in Rome, because they want to keep a choke-hold on the importation of food at critical times of the year, to drove up prices. It is likely they were paid off by by corrupt shipping interests who wanted to gouge the public by keeping supplies tight and prices high. During the fake California energy crisis of 2000, Enron and other companies did the same thing, and the US fossil fuel companies accomplished exactly the same thing this week: they engineered an energy bill that rewards them with billions of dollars while choking off the development of competing technology and efficient automobiles. They even managed to slide in a provision that kills the development of energy-efficient overhead fans by nullifying standards set by the California legislature. (This is a gift to Home Depot -- a major contributor.) It does not seem complicated to me. I would call it corrupt, dysfunctional, treasonous, and a lot of other nasty words, but not complex. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 10:07:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TH6jsJ024274; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:07:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TH6iEk024245; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:06:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: CF Funding Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:06:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050729170617.GOZQ3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Brit friend informed me of this organization: http://www.cognoscence.org/ who: "Cognoscence will identify and fund selected, high-profile research-projects for which it perceives there is considerable public enthusiasm yet insufficient ‘official’ support . . ." Looks like it's suited for CF Funding. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 10:53:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6THrBlk013901; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:53:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6THr9YX013888; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:53:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:53:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EA6D44.7080108 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:54:12 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> The complication I was addressing is based on the need to make a >> policy decision based on many conflicting possibilities. The number of >> these possibilities is increasing, as it always the case in every >> country, from classical Greek times to Germany under Hitler. > > > Honestly, I do not see this happening. Policy decisions and economics > have been complicated throughout history. I do not see why they are more > complicated today. Well, let me provide a few examples. Never before was a "wrong" decision able to eliminate most life on earth. We now have at least three ways to do this - by nuclear weapons, by bioweapons, and by ignoring growing CO2 in the atmosphere. I get the impression that policy makers have no understanding of these dangers, especially the Bush administration. Never before have the economics of the world been so inner rated and complicated. In the past a company, located in a particular country, made something using local labor and materials. A simple ledger could be used to keep track of their activities. Now a company is located all over the world, it sells its products everywhere, and make the products in many locations. They use money from many sources, including debt based on derivatives, and other new and complex systems. Some companies are more wealthy and powerful than many governments. The activities can only be understood using large computers. Never before has scientific knowledge been so extensive and complicated. Knowledge is growing so rapidly that it can only be organized using computers and no single individual can understand the general field of scientific knowledge. This was not always true. People we elect to manage this system are generally scientific and economic idiots, as recent decisions demonstrate. There were often times in history when people could > not tell whether policies were helping or hurting. The British > experience with the East India Company and later with their colonies was > so complicated that economists and historians still argue about whether > the British made money or lost money on the deal, and it is even more > difficult to determine whether the people in India benefited more than > they were harmed. Yes, and this is a good example of my point. As a result of this complexity, the British Empire Died. England is a much different country now. The development of the computer has made a greater amount of complexity understandable in recent times. However, even this tool is now being overwhelmed. In addition, the educational system has not kept up in the US so that an increasing number of voters are totally ignorant of basic information. This ignorance produces confusion and anxiety, so they turn to religion, something they can understand and from which they can obtain emotional support. They can't understand or control the threats - maybe God, if asked properly, well help. (There was no question that a small class of people in > England made a fortune on the colonies.) Pre-modern Japanese governments > gathered immense quantities of data from the population, and they > micromanaged every aspect of the economy and millions of people's lives. > The inventoried every major tree in the country. They specified the type > of cloth that every class of person was allowed to make into clothing, > how many suits of clothes people would be allowed to own. They spelled > out how big their houses could be, how they were designed, what kind of > wood was allowed in each type of house. They decreed what kind of dishes > people of different classes and occupations would be allowed to use. > They did not just make these rules; they enforced them, with inspectors, > paperwork galore, centralized record keeping and so on. This was an > incredibly complicated undertaking. I suggest the effort was designed to reduce the complexity for the general population. Ordinary people in Japan did not need to know very much, they only had to follow the rules. The people in charge had to understand the system very well, but these people could be given sufficient education. The US takes an ordinary C student and puts him in charge of a system that is very complex and open ended, with few rules. It is no wonder we are in trouble. > > I assume that the US congressmen are smarter than they look, they > understand that ethanol is an energy sink, and they voted for it because > they are corrupted by payola from big agriculture. They may be smarter than they look, but they are not smarter than they act. Granted, corruption is common place. However, even obvious self interest does not seem to be acknowledged. Why would a smart person who needed votes from workers in his state support NAFTA? This is nothing new. > The U.S. Congress has often voted for economically dysfunctional and > unfair taxes and benefits. The ancient Roman legislators blocked the > construction of better channels and improved freight landing docks and > warehouses in Rome, because they want to keep a choke-hold on the > importation of food at critical times of the year, to drove up prices. > It is likely they were paid off by by corrupt shipping interests who > wanted to gouge the public by keeping supplies tight and prices high. And we all know what happened to Rome. > During the fake California energy crisis of 2000, Enron and other > companies did the same thing, and the US fossil fuel companies > accomplished exactly the same thing this week: they engineered an energy > bill that rewards them with billions of dollars while choking off the > development of competing technology and efficient automobiles. They even > managed to slide in a provision that kills the development of > energy-efficient overhead fans by nullifying standards set by the > California legislature. (This is a gift to Home Depot -- a major > contributor.) Greed will always be present. The problem comes when complexity is so great that greed can not be kept under control. ENRON is a good example of a greed driven company that created a system that was so complicated that government could not control it. Only bankruptcy stopped the greed, not the government. ENRON could have milked the energy system for many years if they had controlled their hubris. Ed > > It does not seem complicated to me. I would call it corrupt, > dysfunctional, treasonous, and a lot of other nasty words, but not complex. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 11:57:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TIuncZ009879; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:57:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TIulw4009850; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:56:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:56:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:53:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? In-Reply-To: <42EA6D44.7080108 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0 pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Well, let me provide a few examples. Never before was a "wrong" decision >able to eliminate most life on earth. We now have at least three ways to >do this - by nuclear weapons, by bioweapons . . . Ah, well, that is not an increase in complexity, but rather heightened consequences. I certainly agree that the consequences of decisions are much more serious and far-reaching. As Jared Diamond shows in the book "Collapse" people thousands of years ago made disastrous decisions that caused widespread ecological calamities and the extinction of their own tribes. They created vast deserts; nowadays our leaders can make a desert out of the whole planet much more quickly. >Never before have the economics of the world been so inner rated and >complicated. That's true, but ancient economies were pretty complicated! >In the past a company, located in a particular country, made something >using local labor and materials. A simple ledger could be used to keep >track of their activities. Most of them, perhaps, but since the 17th century there have been hundreds of corporations and government agencies that are far more complicated than that. For example, the 18th and 19th century life insurance companies had manual data reporting and processing capabilities that would be impressive even today, with a good-sized computer. >Some companies are more wealthy and powerful than many governments. The >activities can only be understood using large computers. You would be amazed at how well they managed to keep track of millions of details without computers in 1800, in the Japanese government, at the US Census Bureau, and at British life insurance companies. It was slow but effective. Mechanized data processing only become necessary for the US Census Bureau when the population reached 50.1 million, in 1880. That data took 9 years to process. Since the census must be taken every 10 years, according to the Constitution, that was the limit. It took a lot of manual work to do an in-depth analysis of the data sets, for things like actuarial tables, but 19th-century statisticians did impressive work. >Never before has scientific knowledge been so extensive and complicated. >Knowledge is growing so rapidly that it can only be organized using >computers and no single individual can understand the general field of >scientific knowledge. Yes, indeed. >>The British experience with the East India Company and later with their >>colonies was so complicated that economists and historians still argue >>about whether the British made money or lost money on the deal, and it is >>even more difficult to determine whether the people in India benefited >>more than they were harmed. > >Yes, and this is a good example of my point. As a result of this >complexity, the British Empire Died. The empire was not done in by complexity. It was destroyed by rising nationalism in India and elsewhere, by the Labor Party in England, and by World War II. >>[The Shogunate government] decreed what kind of dishes people of >>different classes and occupations would be allowed to use. They did not >>just make these rules; they enforced them, with inspectors, paperwork >>galore, centralized record keeping and so on. This was an incredibly >>complicated undertaking. > >I suggest the effort was designed to reduce the complexity for the general >population. No, that had nothing to do with it. The government wanted to control every aspect of people's lives and infiltrate every organization and clan with informants. Their goal was to prevent opposition, and to squeeze as much wealth out of the population as they could, in taxes. It was a quintessential fascist organization. The only thing similar was the Mesoamerican pre-Columbian governments, and the modern East German government. The Italian fascists tried to monitor and control the population, but they were inept at that. (Also, by the way, the trains did *not* run on time, according to a retired Italian railroad conductor.) >Ordinary people in Japan did not need to know very much, they only had to >follow the rules. Actually they were the best educated premodern population on record. They sure did have to follow the rules! >The people in charge had to understand the system very well, but these >people could be given sufficient education. They were well-educated, but the rules and laws were deliberately obscure. Some were actually state secrets. You could be hauled off to jail for a breaking a law that no one was allowed to know about, based on evidence that you were not allowed to hear. The same thing can happen in the US today thanks to our recent anti-terrorism laws, but we consider it anomalous. Japanese government tends to be opaque even today. There are more hidden "guidelines" and "suggestions" than there are laws, and many extra-governmental organizations collect taxes and pseudo-taxes off the books, such as the money from highway toll booths. Nobody knows how much money comes in from the tolls, or where it goes to. Periodic scandals erupt when it is revealed that most of the money goes into the pockets of officials and ex-officials (amakudari). There are thousands of semi-public organizations such as NEDO, which briefly researched cold fusion. They take in and spend millions of dollars, but nobody knows how much or what they spend it on. They do not answer to the Prime Minister or the Parliament, because they are semiprivate, and they do not have to report profit and loss the way a corporation does, because they are semipublic. >Greed will always be present. The problem comes when complexity is so >great that greed can not be kept under control. ENRON is a good example >of a greed driven company that created a system that was so complicated >that government could not control it. That is true. Enron thrived on a combination of complexity and opaque obscurity. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 12:02:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TJ1KAF012324; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:01:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TJ1Cns012222; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:01:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:01:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=REWiGlnmyjPSippCMmmGSstHjeEZuaoLLeJkNikrvlvcZ5ptRl5nzhJTEo9+qjeBHhA8NLWlsrUFXV+CReYtaLRJQn7/Kq9jcO3IAM+0jvBOHpugpMMCCPrb5IF232dr7228SlmvrhHhNjUyeysaGumSJngDlDJ+mFl2rnfjh8k= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:00:34 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? In-Reply-To: <42EA6D44.7080108 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0 pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108 ix.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6TJ0eTE011929 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the government could easily have controlled the greed. unfortunely, when you try, people who know not of what they speak start screaming about free market economys. clue camel guys, a powerful single industrial leader destroys the free market as surely as the most socialist government controls would. On 7/29/05, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > >> The complication I was addressing is based on the need to make a > >> policy decision based on many conflicting possibilities. The number of > >> these possibilities is increasing, as it always the case in every > >> country, from classical Greek times to Germany under Hitler. > > > > > > Honestly, I do not see this happening. Policy decisions and economics > > have been complicated throughout history. I do not see why they are more > > complicated today. > > Well, let me provide a few examples. Never before was a "wrong" > decision able to eliminate most life on earth. We now have at least > three ways to do this - by nuclear weapons, by bioweapons, and by > ignoring growing CO2 in the atmosphere. I get the impression that > policy makers have no understanding of these dangers, especially the > Bush administration. > > Never before have the economics of the world been so inner rated and > complicated. In the past a company, located in a particular country, > made something using local labor and materials. A simple ledger could > be used to keep track of their activities. Now a company is located all > over the world, it sells its products everywhere, and make the products > in many locations. They use money from many sources, including debt > based on derivatives, and other new and complex systems. Some companies > are more wealthy and powerful than many governments. The activities can > only be understood using large computers. > > Never before has scientific knowledge been so extensive and complicated. > Knowledge is growing so rapidly that it can only be organized using > computers and no single individual can understand the general field of > scientific knowledge. This was not always true. People we elect to > manage this system are generally scientific and economic idiots, as > recent decisions demonstrate. > > > There were often times in history when people could > > not tell whether policies were helping or hurting. The British > > experience with the East India Company and later with their colonies was > > so complicated that economists and historians still argue about whether > > the British made money or lost money on the deal, and it is even more > > difficult to determine whether the people in India benefited more than > > they were harmed. > > Yes, and this is a good example of my point. As a result of this > complexity, the British Empire Died. England is a much different country > now. The development of the computer has made a greater amount of > complexity understandable in recent times. However, even this tool is > now being overwhelmed. In addition, the educational system has not kept > up in the US so that an increasing number of voters are totally ignorant > of basic information. This ignorance produces confusion and anxiety, so > they turn to religion, something they can understand and from which > they can obtain emotional support. They can't understand or control the > threats - maybe God, if asked properly, well help. > > (There was no question that a small class of people in > > England made a fortune on the colonies.) Pre-modern Japanese governments > > gathered immense quantities of data from the population, and they > > micromanaged every aspect of the economy and millions of people's lives. > > The inventoried every major tree in the country. They specified the type > > of cloth that every class of person was allowed to make into clothing, > > how many suits of clothes people would be allowed to own. They spelled > > out how big their houses could be, how they were designed, what kind of > > wood was allowed in each type of house. They decreed what kind of dishes > > people of different classes and occupations would be allowed to use. > > They did not just make these rules; they enforced them, with inspectors, > > paperwork galore, centralized record keeping and so on. This was an > > incredibly complicated undertaking. > > I suggest the effort was designed to reduce the complexity for the > general population. Ordinary people in Japan did not need to know very > much, they only had to follow the rules. The people in charge had to > understand the system very well, but these people could be given > sufficient education. The US takes an ordinary C student and puts him > in charge of a system that is very complex and open ended, with few > rules. It is no wonder we are in trouble. > > > > I assume that the US congressmen are smarter than they look, they > > understand that ethanol is an energy sink, and they voted for it because > > they are corrupted by payola from big agriculture. > > They may be smarter than they look, but they are not smarter than they > act. Granted, corruption is common place. However, even obvious self > interest does not seem to be acknowledged. Why would a smart person who > needed votes from workers in his state support NAFTA? > > This is nothing new. > > The U.S. Congress has often voted for economically dysfunctional and > > unfair taxes and benefits. The ancient Roman legislators blocked the > > construction of better channels and improved freight landing docks and > > warehouses in Rome, because they want to keep a choke-hold on the > > importation of food at critical times of the year, to drove up prices. > > It is likely they were paid off by by corrupt shipping interests who > > wanted to gouge the public by keeping supplies tight and prices high. > > And we all know what happened to Rome. > > > During the fake California energy crisis of 2000, Enron and other > > companies did the same thing, and the US fossil fuel companies > > accomplished exactly the same thing this week: they engineered an energy > > bill that rewards them with billions of dollars while choking off the > > development of competing technology and efficient automobiles. They even > > managed to slide in a provision that kills the development of > > energy-efficient overhead fans by nullifying standards set by the > > California legislature. (This is a gift to Home Depot -- a major > > contributor.) > > Greed will always be present. The problem comes when complexity is so > great that greed can not be kept under control. ENRON is a good example > of a greed driven company that created a system that was so complicated > that government could not control it. Only bankruptcy stopped the > greed, not the government. ENRON could have milked the energy system for > many years if they had controlled their hubris. > > Ed > > > > It does not seem complicated to me. I would call it corrupt, > > dysfunctional, treasonous, and a lot of other nasty words, but not complex. > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 13:14:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TKEXP6013329; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:14:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TKERd8013295; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:14:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:14:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EA8E63.3060902 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:15:31 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> Well, let me provide a few examples. Never before was a "wrong" >> decision able to eliminate most life on earth. We now have at least >> three ways to do this - by nuclear weapons, by bioweapons . . . > > > Ah, well, that is not an increase in complexity, but rather heightened > consequences. I certainly agree that the consequences of decisions are > much more serious and far-reaching. As Jared Diamond shows in the book > "Collapse" people thousands of years ago made disastrous decisions that > caused widespread ecological calamities and the extinction of their own > tribes. They created vast deserts; nowadays our leaders can make a > desert out of the whole planet much more quickly. The point I'm making is that disastrous decisions are made because the system at the time is too complex for people to understand the consequences using the knowledge and tools available at the time. No one, even a greedy politician, would knowingly make a decision that would destroy his country or society. The disastrous decisions are always made out of ignorance about the consequences. Of course, greed blinds. Consequently, some critical number of knowledgeable, honest people are always needed, the number of which is reduced as the system becomes too complex for this critical number to understand the situation. Too few and their advice is ignored, just like the situation with cold fusion. > > >> Never before have the economics of the world been so inner rated and >> complicated. > > > That's true, but ancient economies were pretty complicated! What standard would you use to judge? Surely, past economies were not as complicated as what we see today. > > >> In the past a company, located in a particular country, made something >> using local labor and materials. A simple ledger could be used to >> keep track of their activities. > > > Most of them, perhaps, but since the 17th century there have been > hundreds of corporations and government agencies that are far more > complicated than that. For example, the 18th and 19th century life > insurance companies had manual data reporting and processing > capabilities that would be impressive even today, with a good-sized > computer. Until modern computers came along, all recording had to be done by hand. Of course methods were developed to make simple calculations. The business models used today use equations that would take years to solve using these tools. In fact, modern large corporations could not function without computers and the complex mathematical models on which decisions are based. As these models become more complex, only people with special training can understand what is happening, thus the CFO is born. The CEO can now plead ignorance and get off scot free when the company goes belly-up. > > >> Some companies are more wealthy and powerful than many governments. >> The activities can only be understood using large computers. > > > You would be amazed at how well they managed to keep track of millions > of details without computers in 1800, in the Japanese government, at the > US Census Bureau, and at British life insurance companies. It was slow > but effective. Mechanized data processing only become necessary for the > US Census Bureau when the population reached 50.1 million, in 1880. That > data took 9 years to process. Since the census must be taken every 10 > years, according to the Constitution, that was the limit. Nine years to process just a few questions!! The information being stored about everyone, on which taxes, employment, and credit are based, would not have been possible until recently. Surely, you must acknowledge that this is a level of complexity never before achieved. Important decisions are made every day based on this information. Once the amount of information becomes too great and the decision process becomes too complicated, an increasing number of "bad" decisions will be made and modern society will slowly regress. That process is happening right now. > > It took a lot of manual work to do an in-depth analysis of the data > sets, for things like actuarial tables, but 19th-century statisticians > did impressive work. No doubt they were impressive given the tools available. What would you expect to happen to society if the computer had not been discovered? Would data collection have stopped? Or would the amount of information have totally overwhelmed the system so that knowledge about the consequence of decisions was no longer available? This would not have stopped people from trying to make decisions. I suggest civilization would have died as countries regressed to simpler forms. Instead, development of the computer has put this event further in the future, unless another big discovery is made that can reduce the complexity of decisions. > > >> Never before has scientific knowledge been so extensive and >> complicated. Knowledge is growing so rapidly that it can only be >> organized using computers and no single individual can understand the >> general field of scientific knowledge. > > > Yes, indeed. > > >>> The British experience with the East India Company and later with >>> their colonies was so complicated that economists and historians >>> still argue about whether the British made money or lost money on the >>> deal, and it is even more difficult to determine whether the people >>> in India benefited more than they were harmed. >> >> >> Yes, and this is a good example of my point. As a result of this >> complexity, the British Empire Died. > > > The empire was not done in by complexity. It was destroyed by rising > nationalism in India and elsewhere, by the Labor Party in England, and > by World War II. Most of those events, I suggest, were caused by the consequence of decisions not being understood. For example, do you think Hitler would have done what he did if he knew what the consequences would be? Of course, Hitler went crazy later and, in that condition, ignored good advice. We see that happen all the time, even in the US. > > >>> [The Shogunate government] decreed what kind of dishes people of >>> different classes and occupations would be allowed to use. They did >>> not just make these rules; they enforced them, with inspectors, >>> paperwork galore, centralized record keeping and so on. This was an >>> incredibly complicated undertaking. >> >> >> I suggest the effort was designed to reduce the complexity for the >> general population. > > > No, that had nothing to do with it. The government wanted to control > every aspect of people's lives and infiltrate every organization and > clan with informants. Their goal was to prevent opposition, and to > squeeze as much wealth out of the population as they could, in taxes. It > was a quintessential fascist organization. The only thing similar was > the Mesoamerican pre-Columbian governments, and the modern East German > government. The Italian fascists tried to monitor and control the > population, but they were inept at that. (Also, by the way, the trains > did *not* run on time, according to a retired Italian railroad conductor.) OK, I agree the Japanese leaders had goals beyond limiting complexity. Nevertheless, if this had been the consequence, the country would have been more stable even without informants. However, as you say, the rules were so complex that complexity was not reduced, but made worse. When that happens, a society becomes unstable because most people do not handle uncertainty well. Ed > >> Ordinary people in Japan did not need to know very much, they only had >> to follow the rules. > > > Actually they were the best educated premodern population on record. > They sure did have to follow the rules! > > >> The people in charge had to understand the system very well, but these >> people could be given sufficient education. > > > They were well-educated, but the rules and laws were deliberately > obscure. Some were actually state secrets. You could be hauled off to > jail for a breaking a law that no one was allowed to know about, based > on evidence that you were not allowed to hear. The same thing can happen > in the US today thanks to our recent anti-terrorism laws, but we > consider it anomalous. > > Japanese government tends to be opaque even today. There are more hidden > "guidelines" and "suggestions" than there are laws, and many > extra-governmental organizations collect taxes and pseudo-taxes off the > books, such as the money from highway toll booths. Nobody knows how much > money comes in from the tolls, or where it goes to. Periodic scandals > erupt when it is revealed that most of the money goes into the pockets > of officials and ex-officials (amakudari). There are thousands of > semi-public organizations such as NEDO, which briefly researched cold > fusion. They take in and spend millions of dollars, but nobody knows how > much or what they spend it on. They do not answer to the Prime Minister > or the Parliament, because they are semiprivate, and they do not have to > report profit and loss the way a corporation does, because they are > semipublic. > > >> Greed will always be present. The problem comes when complexity is so >> great that greed can not be kept under control. ENRON is a good >> example of a greed driven company that created a system that was so >> complicated that government could not control it. > > > That is true. Enron thrived on a combination of complexity and opaque > obscurity. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 14:11:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TLAWxe006256; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:10:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TLAVdn006233; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:10:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:10:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=sqK8Q33wQgEiHxsoz8izHLOy57vddfyo4EE86PqnublbS5OY8D4m9a/ngMH6EtmO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005752921105140 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday July 29, 2005 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:10:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d81597b4ad7a7933a3591829ad1ef917a60cdf93a589ab4c3c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.108.133 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: What's New To: Date: 7/29/2005 1:53:35 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday July 29, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 29 Jul 05 Washington, DC 1. SHUTTLE: THE SPACE SHUTTLE DOESN'T WORK IT NEVER DID WORK. Why is everyone afraid to say so? The real problem isn't foam falling off the fuel tank. The shuttle was sold to Congress as a way to launch things into space more cheaply. On the contrary, it's the most expensive way to reach space ever conceived. The problems we're facing now result from the refusal to acknowledge that reality. Initially, anything that went into space, including commercial and military satellites, was required to be launched from the shuttle. With the total cost of the shuttle program at about $150B, the average cost/flight is about $1.3B. The shuttle was strangling space development before the Challenger disaster. Then it was declared to be a science laboratory, but no field of science has been affected in any way by research that has been conducted on the shuttle or space station. The last scheduled research mission was the final flight of Columbia in 2003. The shuttle's only mission now is to supply the ISS. 2. ECHINACEA: THE THEME THIS WEEK IS "THINGS THAT DON'T WORK." There is no reason why herbal remedies couldn't work. The bark and leaves of the angiosperms are packed with biologically active chemicals. Surely, among the thousands of herbals on the market, one must work. With a budget of over $100M, and under pressure to show it's not biased against alternative medicine, the new National Center of Complementary and Alternative Medicine at NIH set out to find it. Well, ephedra worked, but side effects were fatal http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn010204.html. Why not ask herbalists what would be a sure thing? Answer: "Echinacea." Millions of Americans use the purple cone flower to prevent or treat colds. Native Americans used it, and we all know that primitive societies had wondrous cures that today's narrow-minded scientists can't explain. But in initial tests, it didn't seem to work http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn052804.html. This week, the New England Journal of Medicine published a convincing NCCAM funded test: Echinacea does not prevent or cure colds. 3. PRAYER: FOLLOW-UP STUDY FINDS NO BENEFIT FOR HEART PATIENTS. Prayers for the sick are probably the most widely practiced healing tradition in the world. An earlier study with the same lead author, Mitchell Krucoff, MD, at Duke University Medical Center, continues to be widely cited as scientific evidence for the power of prayer. In a much larger follow-up study, however, 748 patients who had common cardiac procedures were not helped by intercessory prayers of groups throughout the world, drawn from Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist denominations. You will not be surprised that the authors conclude that so-called "noetic" therapies, defined as therapies that don't involve the use of tangible drugs or devices, deserve further scientific scrutiny. Science assumes that all events result from natural causes http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn120304.html. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 14:36:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TLZtCE018238; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:36:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TLZrlL018221; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:35:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:35:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729163955.0448eeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:35:19 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? In-Reply-To: <42EA8E63.3060902 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0 pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42EA8E63.3060902 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >>That's true, but ancient economies were pretty complicated! > >What standard would you use to judge? Surely, past economies were not as >complicated as what we see today. I do not know much about economics, but premodern manufacturing was, in some ways, even more complicated than most present day versions, because it required so much manual expertise and input from so many different people. A good example is the 18th century British chronometer (marine navigation clock). The complexity, quality control, the number of people involved, and cost to manufacture rivaled that of the minicomputer circa 1980. >Until modern computers came along, all recording had to be done by >hand. Of course methods were developed to make simple calculations. Not just simple ones! Remarkably complex calculations were performed manually, by coordinated groups of hundreds of clerks. Good examples are the US Census Bureau statistics from 1860, which came in four volumes with hundreds of tables, and the lunar navigation tables produced by the British Admiralty. For that matter, the first atomic bombs was developed using only human "computers" equipped with mechanical calculating machines. An interesting point is that many of the techniques used in computer data processing evolved directly from the manual techniques used by live clerks. This is reflected in computer terminology such as "ledger," "register" "record" and "index." The ISAM index algorithms I implemented back in 1980 were derived directly from manual systems still used to shelve books in libraries. >The business models used today use equations that would take years to >solve using these tools. And for that reason, back in 1860 (and 1940) they used more elegant and clever equations and tools, that still gave reasonably good answers. My mother, for example, used a slide rule to the end of her days. >>The [1880] data took 9 years to process. Since the census must be taken >>every 10 years, according to the Constitution, that was the limit. > >Nine years to process just a few questions!! No, lots of questions. To start with they recorded a fairly large set of basic information for every citizen: age, sex, race, national origin, address (town, county, state), trade (I think), and before 1865, legal status (free or slave -- as mandated in the Constitution). I do not think the basic census form today is much more complicated. They broke this down into six major tallies, with various actuarial of tables and so on. Furthermore, starting in 1810 the Congress ordered the Census Bureau to collect more extensive information from some people and most commercial establishments, relating mainly to commerce. The Congress mandated "a statistical report . . . covering the kind, quantity, and value of goods manufactured, and the number of manufacturing establishments in each State, Territory, district, and county" for 25 broad categories of manufacture, and 220 kinds of goods. In 1820 this was expanded to include data on "the location of establishments, 14 additional inquiries elicited information on raw materials employed (kind, quantity, and cost), number of employees (men, women, and boys and girls), machinery (whole quantity and kind of machinery and quantity of machinery in operation), expenditures (capital, wages, and contingent expenses), and production (nature and names of articles manufactured, value, demand, and sales)." Believe me, it only got more complicated after that! See: http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/pdf/giq97/GIQ_history.pdf And if I may add a blatant plug for statistics and the Census Bureau, the U.S. has an old and proud tradition of gathering and publishing accurate, detailed data about every aspect of our society, such as public health, manufacturing, employment and so on. This transparency is one of our great strengths as a society. Traditionally, only the U.K. and France have been as forthright. >The information being stored about everyone, on which taxes, employment, >and credit are based, would not have been possible until recently. On the contrary, the Constitution mandated that the data be collected for everyone, in order to divvy up the representatives in Congress, and to impose taxes and distribute benefits fairly. That is why they established the Bureau in the first place. You cannot have democracy without good, solid, detailed statistics, and the U.S. had 'em starting in 1790. >>It took a lot of manual work to do an in-depth analysis of the data sets, >>for things like actuarial tables, but 19th-century statisticians did >>impressive work. > >No doubt they were impressive given the tools available. What would you >expect to happen to society if the computer had not been discovered? I know exactly what would have happened. The cost of the 1890 and 1900 census would have gone through the roof, and the Congress would have demanded someone come up with a mechanical solution. That is exactly why and how the computer was invented, by Herman Hollerith. There were several competing designs but his was best. His company evolved the IBM corporation. When a society feels a strong need for a tool, and the tool is technically within its grasp (meaning it does not require any fundamental new discovery), development becomes inevitable. The ancient Egyptians felt they must have pyramids, so they devised ways to build them. The British in 1750 decided they must have accurate chronometers, so they created a high tech industry to supply them. In 1890, the U.S. Congress understood that the survival of democracy depended upon mechanical data processing, and it decreed that it would pay for this technology, so inevitably someone invented it. That does not mean the Congress could today decree that someone figure out the secret of cold fusion. The Hollerith machines were clever, elegant and well designed, but they did not require any fundamental breakthroughs in physics, mathematics or electricity. They were based on existing technology and well-understood principles. On this issue, Arthur Clarke went even farther out on a limb than I do. He wrote: "Anything that is theoretically possible will be achieved in practice, no matter what the technical difficulties, if it is desired greatly enough." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 14:43:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TLhQFx022007; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:43:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TLhNNq021956; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:43:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:43:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729174024.04480210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:42:57 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: A response in the Harvard Crimson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_30278000==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_30278000==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, well. Someone responded in the usual manner. See: http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article508328.html To The Editors: In his recent letter to The Crimson ("Madrian Mistaken About Cold Fusion Debate," July 22), Jed Rothwell writes regarding cold fusion research that "the claim was never 'invalidated.'" Rothwell then goes on to state that cold fusion has been "replicated by hundreds of major laboratories worldwide," when in fact the research has had no such success. Rothwell is a contributing editor at Infinite Energy magazine, a fringe publication devoted to the study of "New Energy," which the magazine's website defines to be "the term applied to new sources of energy that are currently not recognized as feasible by the 'scientific establishment.'" In addition to cold fusion, the editors include "New Energy" to mean other pseudoscientific buzzwords like "zero-point energy" and "significant extensions to the Second Law of Thermodynamics." . . . Now we shall see whether the Crimson allows this kind of ad hominem attack to go unanswered. - Jed --=====================_30278000==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Well, well. Someone responded in the usual manner. See:

    http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article508328.html


    To The Editors:

    In his recent letter to The Crimson (“Madrian Mistaken About Cold Fusion Debate,” July 22), Jed Rothwell writes regarding cold fusion research that “the claim was never ‘invalidated.’” Rothwell then goes on to state that cold fusion has been “replicated by hundreds of major laboratories worldwide,” when in fact the research has had no such success.

    Rothwell is a contributing editor at Infinite Energy magazine, a fringe publication devoted to the study of “New Energy,” which the magazine’s website defines to be “the term applied to new sources of energy that are currently not recognized as feasible by the ‘scientific establishment.’” In addition to cold fusion, the editors include “New Energy” to mean other pseudoscientific buzzwords like “zero-point energy” and “significant extensions to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.” . . .


    Now we shall see whether the Crimson allows this kind of ad hominem attack to go unanswered.

    - Jed
    --=====================_30278000==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 15:26:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TMQ8Rm011995; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:26:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TMPrns011611; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:25:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:25:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729182405.04497020 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:25:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Comment by J. Barandes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [My response, e-mailed to the Crimson. If they do not publish it, I will put it on LENR-CANR.org] To The Editors: Jacob A. Barandes says that cold fusion was not replicated. It is a matter of fact that hundreds of researchers think they replicated it, and published peer reviewed papers claiming they did. Barandes can confirm that at the Harvard library by looking up back issues of the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry, the Journal of Physical Chemistry, the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics, and so on. It may be that all of these papers are mistaken, and the replications are invalid. If Barandes thinks so, he will have to publish a peer reviewed paper himself, showing how and why mistakes were made. A skeptical or negative opinion does not get a free pass; all views must be held to the same rigorous standards. Barandes' statements about me and my background are ad hominem and irrelevant. I did not publish these papers; electrochemists from hundreds of different universities, national laboratories and corporations published them. Barandes should question their qualifications, not mine. Barandes can avoid a trip to the library and read the full text of over 400 cold fusion papers at our web site, http://lenr-canr.org/. Researchers from all over the world download 3,000 to 5,000 copies of these papers per week. They have downloaded over 350,000 copies since 2002. We cannot track individual users, but we know that many of these readers are students and professors, because they contact us, and because our traffic ebbs and flows with the academic calendar. (It drops close to zero during exam weeks!) If the papers were all mistaken, and all unconvincing, it seems unlikely that so many academic professionals would bother to read them. Sincerely, Jed Rothwell Atlanta, GA From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 15:49:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TMn0YN022084; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:49:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TMmwTb022068; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:48:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:48:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729183824.04485070 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:48:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729163955.0448eeb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0 pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42EA8E63.3060902 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729163955.0448eeb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >When a society feels a strong need for a tool, and the tool is technically >within its grasp (meaning it does not require any fundamental new >discovery), development becomes inevitable. That does not mean we always invent things when we need them. Necessity alone is insufficient. We must also "feel a strong need." We have to agree as a society that the problem exists and it should be solved. I think the US desperately needs better automobiles and a replacement for oil. But unfortunately, the Congress and most citizens do not agree, and they do not feel any need to address these problems. Good solutions have already been invented, such as hybrid and diesel engines. But we are ignoring these innovations. We may go on ignoring them until we are destroyed by pollution or terrorism financed from oil profits. Sometimes, societies feel a strong need to invent things that serve no purpose, such as the ancient Egyptian pyramids or the Space Shuttle. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 15:51:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TMp7TW023199; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:51:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6TMp5BM023182; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:51:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:51:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:50:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3576537105072702176d2a46f4 mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3576537105072702176d2a46f4 mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:50:42 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j6TMolxH023035 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to David Jonsson's message of Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:17:16 +0200: Hi, [snip] >Hi > >I wonder if ZPE can be involved in the distribution of thermal motion >of low density plasmas. These distributions are found to be of >Maxwellian type even when collisions are too few to maintain the >distribution. This is called the Langmuir paradox. [snip] How can they be "too few to maintain the distribution"? Even a single particle alone in a container will collide with the walls (where there are lots of particles). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 19:40:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6U2dsr3017171; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:40:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6U2dp9u017147; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:39:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:39:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EAE869.1040206 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:39:37 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA8E63.3060902@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729163955.0448eeb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729183824.04485070@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729183824.04485070 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed and Ed interesting string. I happen to have a degree that includes both the economics and environmental subjects your covering. I've learned a few interesting things over the years. * Very few technological and environmental disasters have occurred that were not predicted and thus preventable. I can't think of one. Even Enron's fraud and collapse was predicted by people (Austrian economists) that guessed early on that they were (had to be) fraudulent. The original shuttle design had an escape pod bridge with extra heat shielding but it added several tons. It was dropped from the design so she could carry more tons of cargo. * Convenience beats commonsense every time so our solutions must be convenient. The inconvenient solution such as recycling everything is beaten by the convenience of a single rubbish bin. * Technological solutions don't come when the greens, the lobbyists or even the public clamor for them or when the investor invents them. It comes when the society is willing to invest and pay for them. We are on that threshold with oil at $50 a barrel. This actually means they seem to come late from the greens and the Lobbyists point of view. Frustratingly late from the inventor's point of view but its perfectly on time from the point of view of the market. Governments don't seem to have had an influence even in a time of war; even they have to pay the going rate eventually either in favors (which cost them dearly later) or cash. * If there's land to migrate into or conquer its economicly viable to run an ecosystem down to desert to build up the resorces to launch the campain. The desert makers of history are not short sighted they often had their sights set on someone elses land. Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > >> When a society feels a strong need for a tool, and the tool is >> technically within its grasp (meaning it does not require any >> fundamental new discovery), development becomes inevitable. > > > That does not mean we always invent things when we need them. > Necessity alone is insufficient. We must also "feel a strong need." We > have to agree as a society that the problem exists and it should be > solved. > > I think the US desperately needs better automobiles and a replacement > for oil. But unfortunately, the Congress and most citizens do not > agree, and they do not feel any need to address these problems. Good > solutions have already been invented, such as hybrid and diesel > engines. But we are ignoring these innovations. We may go on ignoring > them until we are destroyed by pollution or terrorism financed from > oil profits. > > Sometimes, societies feel a strong need to invent things that serve no > purpose, such as the ancient Egyptian pyramids or the Space Shuttle. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 21:57:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6U4vFFC004515; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:57:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6U4vDGm004498; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:57:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:57:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050729212041.02910440 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:54:25 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: A response in the Harvard Crimson In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729174024.04480210 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729174024.04480210 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, You didn't include the last paragraph from Barandes. It was juicy, and of course nasty. I'm going to keep it for historical purposes. The extreme point of view and the viciousness, I think, will be something fascinating to look back on. I'm finding, more and more, that it's helpful to talk with those who will listen and show some interest, and leave the rest alone. The Crimson made an editorial decision. I have to assume they are intelligent people and understand what a disgusting ad hominem and unsubstantiated attack this was. I also have to assume that the Crimson was "testing the waters" with your pro-cold fusion letter - and they subsequently decided that there was a strong contrarian viewpoint that they had better represent, lest they appear too "progressive." Honestly, I think they may not even have published your letter a few years ago. We all know that CF has followed the scientific method. Many of us accept that it is a demonstrable and a true effect of nature. My thought is that It's just a matter of time before the rest of the world knows it too. How much time? I don't know. Remember what Stan Pons said in 1989: "It appears that the people who would benefit most by this work being discredited have taken the initiative to cause us great difficulty. .. They might cause us difficulty, but they will not stop the science.'' I do see a progression occurring. It's slow, and it may only be evident over the next few years, but it is clearly visible. ITER's pathetic situation and deservedly bad press, in my view, has given a tremendous boost to the view of CF in some circles, or at least those outside of Harvard yard. At the March APS meeting, Scott Chubb and I spoke with the editor of a very prestigious physics journal who is a prof at another Ivy League school. The idea of a CF lecture on campus came up. I have not heard of any follow-through with it yet, but it seems possible in the future. And then, in less than one month from now, I will present to the orthodox scientists at the International Conference on Emerging Nuclear Systems, "How can cold fusion be real, considering it was disproved by several well-respected laboratories in 1989?" http://newenergytimes.com/Conf/ICENES-2005/KrivitS-ICENES2005-Abstract.pdf . I'm not expecting an overly-friendly reception by this fission and hot fusion nuke physics crowd, but I'm still going to tell it the way I see it. We'll see who is receptive. For reasons unknown to me, somebody, or some people on the organizing committee on ICENES made the (enlightened, IMO) decision that it was time they, and their attendees learn more about cf. Let's see where this goes.... s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 22:10:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6U59mvt008805; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:10:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6U59jRm008736; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:09:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:09:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050729215822.028f9a00 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:07:12 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: A response in the Harvard Crimson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, One more thing I forgot to mention. I had a very pleasant chat with Chase Peterson yesterday. We were just talking about some of the old days of cold fusion for him. Peterson sees the picture quite clearly: The "cold fusion episode" is much bigger than cold fusion. It is about major issues in the philosophy of science and how the world of science currently responds to new ideas. I think sometimes when we see unscientific responses like that published in the Crimson, that we often forget how big this subject really is, and perhaps the reasonable, monumental effort which is and will be required to bring about a transformation in understanding. One brick at a time... s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jul 29 22:22:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6U5MBti012959; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:22:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6U5MAlV012935; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:22:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:22:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050729221327.02822100 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:19:48 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Comment by J. Barandes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729182405.04497020 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729182405.04497020 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Oh, one more thing, Look who you are up against: a grad student. I went up against one like him from Columbia last year in a Wikipedia match. Believe it or not, he may actually be an innocent victim who's been spoon-fed myths and misinformation by his teachers. Want to see how this may be occurring? Look here for an example from Berkeley: http://newenergytimes.com/students/AcademicPerspective2004.htm It's no wonder our cold fusion friend and professor at Berkeley needs to keep off the record, lets he be labeled a heretic or kook. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 00:42:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6U7gGo6026864; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:42:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6U7gEq1026846; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:42:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:42:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EB2F47.2040307 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:41:59 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Defusing the hot fusion critics. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_r1RLB.A.ajG.W9y6CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One way to defuse the hot fusion critics is to point out how close they are to having a workable plasma rocket. Their skills in plasma engineering could be so usefully if they stopped banging their head against the wall of stable fusion breakeven and simply uses cold fusion powered plasma propulsion systems. With a cold fusion powered plasma rocket we could get a payload to Mars in under three months at any time of the year. Ask them if their saying that their to dumb to do plasma drives or plasma sails. Are they saying that the only game their any good at is toroidal fusion power; a systems that's been struggling along for 60 years without a watt of usable power? Can they only work for Department of energy grants? Are they not good enough for NASA? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 01:26:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6U8QDN7008208; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:26:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6U8QAJk008188; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:26:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:26:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=RhuG9nqOYX6ooepu2filqU+uEwm51DtFkMHlRU2sH4kRzpaRjJ5RbAu4r2RRsKKF; Message-ID: <410-2200576307269180 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent Light Bulbs OU? Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:26:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940766689a4c7ebe216977d42899a9fd7a6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.75 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Electrons (1/1836 AMU) Argon (~40 AMU ions) and Mercury (~200 AMU ions) and about 100 volts worth of electric field at ~ 0.4 amps, 50- 60 Hz (in place of the gravity field) slamming the ends of that millitorr- pressure fluorescent light bulb?? Double Ball Drop: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html "If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball like a large superball, the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high velocity, theoretically approaching three times the velocity with which the balls strike the surface. The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic collisions and in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits used in space exploration have features in common with this situation even though the objects involved never touch each other." "The rebound velocity of 3v for the small ball implies that its kinetic energy is nine times its incoming kinetic energy since the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Since the gravitational potential energy is proportional to the height and the kinetic energy is all converted to potential energy at the peak of the motion, it will rise to height 9h." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Electrons (1/1836 AMU) Argon (~40 AMU ions) and Mercury (~200 AMU ions) and
    about 100 volts worth of electric field at ~ 0.4 amps, 50- 60 Hz (in
    place of the gravity field) slamming the ends of that millitorr- pressure fluorescent light bulb??
     
     
    Double Ball Drop:
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html
    "If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball like a large superball, the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high velocity, theoretically approaching three times the velocity with which the balls strike the surface. The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic collisions and in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits used in space exploration have features in common with this situation even though the objects involved never touch each other."

    "The rebound velocity of 3v for the small ball implies that its kinetic energy is nine times its incoming kinetic energy since the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Since the gravitational potential energy is proportional to the height and the kinetic energy is all converted to potential energy at the peak of the motion, it will rise to height 9h."
     
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
     
    Frederick
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 03:19:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UAJPfk012659; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:19:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UAJJ8H012488; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:19:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:19:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=FzNJpBMft9HIDMG5IPrx7U26gz8jRB8VV8WRFXVEzg+ojy5z1SoE0fkQVkH9fgl0; Message-ID: <410-2200576309175210 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent Light Bulbs OU? Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:17:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94003b7994945906378bbb5fe59753d37e0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.138 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Reiterating: A standard 40 watt, 4-foot x 1.5 inch diameter fluorescent bulb operates at ~0.4 amps/ 100 volts 50 - 60 Hz (the electronic ballast up the frequency to 30 KHz or more). The fluorescent lamp usually contains "a drop" of Mercury molecules-ions (~200 AMU) with the (~ 40 AMU) Argon molecule-ions,,and electrons (~1/1836 AMU) at a fill pressure ~ 0.01Torr 300 K.. Electron and ion velocity v = (2*V*1.6E^-19/m)^1/2 Neutral Molecule velocity v = (kT/0.5*m)^1/2 (T could be very high for a neutralized ion) Is something like this going on in the MAHG and with Mills' Hydrino catalyst/s? Mean Free Path Calculator: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/menfre.html Collision Frequency Calculator: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/frecol.html#c1 Molecular Speed Calculator: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/kintem.html#c4 Standard Collision Applet (Java Calculator): http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/colsta.html#c4 Double Ball Drop: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
    Reiterating:
     
    A standard 40 watt, 4-foot x 1.5 inch diameter fluorescent bulb operates at ~0.4 amps/ 100 volts
    50 - 60 Hz (the electronic ballast up the frequency to 30 KHz or more).
     
    The fluorescent lamp usually contains "a drop" of Mercury molecules-ions (~200 AMU) with
    the (~ 40 AMU) Argon molecule-ions,,and electrons (~1/1836 AMU) at a fill pressure ~ 0.01Torr 300 K..
     
    Electron and ion velocity v = (2*V*1.6E^-19/m)^1/2 
     
    Neutral Molecule velocity  v = (kT/0.5*m)^1/2 (T could be very high for a neutralized ion)
     
    Is something like this going on in the MAHG and with Mills' Hydrino catalyst/s?
     
    Mean Free Path Calculator:
     
    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/menfre.html
     
    Collision Frequency Calculator:
     
    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/frecol.html#c1
     
    Molecular Speed Calculator:
     
    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/kintem.html#c4
     
     
    Standard Collision Applet (Java Calculator):
     
    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/colsta.html#c4
     
    Double Ball Drop:
     
    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html
     
    Frederick
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 04:27:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UBQw9X032726; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:27:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UBQuN4032701; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:26:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:26:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c594f9$2deecf00$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050729174024.04480210 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050729212041.02910440@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: A response in the Harvard Crimson Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:23:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just for the rest of us, here's the final bit of the "The Crimson" letter... << Rothwell is a contributing editor at Infinite Energy magazine, a fringe publication devoted to the study of "New Energy," which the magazine's website defines to be "the term applied to new sources of energy that are currently not recognized as feasible by the 'scientific establishment.'" In addition to cold fusion, the editors include "New Energy" to mean other pseudoscientific buzzwords like "zero-point energy" and "significant extensions to the Second Law of Thermodynamics." Charlatans peddling "perpetual motion machines" and other limitless sources of free energy have been around for centuries. The public really doesn't need The Crimson spreading such falsehoods and granting these hucksters much-craved legitimacy. JACOB A. BARANDES Cambridge, Mass. July 22, 2005 The writer is a graduate student in physics at Harvard. >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 05:28:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UCSAdW020619; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 05:28:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UCS8M1020601; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 05:28:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 05:28:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c59502$1363ada0$d3027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: A response in the Harvard Crimson Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:27:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C594D8.2A02A3B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_66, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C594D8.2A02A3B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C594D8.2A042A50" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C594D8.2A042A50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSteven Krivit wrote.. >Jed, >You didn't include the last paragraph from Barandes. It was juicy, and = of=20 >course nasty. I'm going to keep it for historical purposes. The extreme = >point of view and the viciousness, I think, will be something = fascinating=20 >to look back on. Steven I was shocked, shocked that the Crimson would print the comment. As = Claude Rains said in the movie " Casablanca".. " am shocked, shocked = that gambling is going on here" Perhaps my higher expectation of Harvard to maintain an intellectual = standard that challenges the mind of the student has been misplaced. = Publishing such a comment degrades the licsense permitted Universities = to engage in the pursuit of knowledge.Certainly, Harvard has the right = to do so ..but.. at the expense of revelation of an inner conflict = within the halls of academia. A conflict, unless addressed, degrades the = purpose of the institution. Certain institutions hold truths to be self evident, certain are in the = business of masquerading the truth ans some cast it to the ground.=20 Harvard needs to get back to laboring in the vineyards of learning and = leave the grapes of wrath be trampled by oppressors. A university cannot = be both , else they become a paradox evidenced by ancient Athens,making = the mistake of confusing wisdom with knowledge. I once noticed a plaque over the bench of a criminal court's judge that = stated " all that seek justice labor here". Steven Krivit is a candidate for coming up with a CF slogan that has = legs. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C594D8.2A042A50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Steven Krivit wrote..

    >Jed,

    >You didn't include the last paragraph from = Barandes. It=20 was juicy, and of
    >course nasty. I'm going to keep it for = historical=20 purposes. The extreme
    >point of view and the viciousness, I = think, will=20 be something fascinating
    >to look back on.


    Steven
    I was shocked, shocked that the Crimson would = print the=20 comment. As Claude Rains said in the movie " Casablanca".. " am shocked, = shocked=20 that gambling is going on here"

    Perhaps my higher expectation of Harvard to maintain an intellectual = standard=20 that challenges the mind of the student has been misplaced. Publishing = such a=20 comment degrades the licsense permitted Universities to engage in the = pursuit of=20 knowledge.Certainly, Harvard has the right to do so ..but.. at the = expense of=20 revelation of an inner conflict within the halls of academia. A = conflict, unless=20 addressed, degrades the purpose of the institution.

    Certain institutions hold truths to be self evident, certain  = are in the=20 business of masquerading the truth ans some cast it to the ground.

     Harvard needs to get back to laboring in the vineyards of = learning and=20 leave the grapes of wrath be trampled by oppressors. A university = cannot be=20 both , else they become a paradox evidenced by ancient Athens,making the = mistake=20 of confusing wisdom with knowledge.

    I once noticed a plaque over the bench of a criminal court's judge = that=20 stated " all that seek justice labor here".

    Steven Krivit is a candidate for coming up with a CF slogan that has=20 legs.

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C594D8.2A042A50-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C594D8.2A02A3B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c59502$12bebb10$d3027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C594D8.2A02A3B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 06:16:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UDFlkc004300; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:16:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UDFj75004272; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:15:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:15:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=se5GueAftW2IAAE1nxmH5SmfkvBbdcBk+RokaK3IIneiSrQyxIItMhsqosrMtcl4OvghKclz1zdKWw60ZmKAJGT3hTFniuoqljANOAhL8/cN2HTNHphu+gHfqEOwwuuCngI2uKw+dz1nftza5tfMKFZCBjoPVGclU+hs+zd8yjA= ; Message-ID: <20050730131523.33580.qmail web33310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:15:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: Defusing the hot fusion critics. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <42EB2F47.2040307 iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1748227829-1122729322=:33578" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1748227829-1122729322=:33578 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wesley, I posted about just this topic on ZPEnergy.com recently and it was about Dr. Diaz at JPL. Now I know Jed and others are going say I am whining over this, however if it was Jed getting ripped off, he would not be taking this so lightly. Another clue that my device is being used will be when they claim a breakthrough has been made of a shield for radiation, as I proposed to NASA several years ago. The "good news" is that greed and haste have worked to prevent the technology from being hidden by the US Government, and surprisingly nobody wants to invest in me and profit from my work - sour grapes I suppose, more likely just too unbelievable to believe - at this time. Below is the repost from ZPEnergy Now, before anyone jumps on me - I was told over a year ago that Diaz was using my device, and from the sound of it - they must have witnessed it, so possibly they work at JPL too. In any case - it mirrors my proposal to Mark Millis, but the contents are confidential. BTW Wesley, Dave Adair (as I recall) already invented the fusion rocket when he was a young boy - so what was it you were referring to that they are "close" to with a Plasma rocket? Regards, Chris Re: Propellantless Propulsion G-Engine via Zero g-force WARP Drive - The Math (Score: 1) by pulsed_ignition on Thursday, July 28, 2005 19:25:11 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 Gosh Jack, I wonder if the Warp Drive you speak of is anything like what I proposed to Mark Millis at NASA? Hello Mark!!!!! Someone high up at JPL (a Dr.) is supposed to be using the PLASMA that my device produces for propulsion - and I was told it was the #2 project at JPL. As I was told - "Dr. X is not using the mechanical energy that your device produces, he is using the plasma for propulsion." Imagine that? Maybe they were just trying to drive me over the edge in telling me this, but no such luck. If our Government would rather steal it than pay for it - this is nothing new. Thank GOD Clinton is not in charge anymore, or he would just give it to the Chinese. ZPE is real and Pulsed Plasma can tap it - which is covered in my US patent. Chris Wesley Bruce wrote: One way to defuse the hot fusion critics is to point out how close they are to having a workable plasma rocket. Their skills in plasma engineering could be so usefully if they stopped banging their head against the wall of stable fusion breakeven and simply uses cold fusion powered plasma propulsion systems. With a cold fusion powered plasma rocket we could get a payload to Mars in under three months at any time of the year. Ask them if their saying that their to dumb to do plasma drives or plasma sails. Are they saying that the only game their any good at is toroidal fusion power; a systems that's been struggling along for 60 years without a watt of usable power? Can they only work for Department of energy grants? Are they not good enough for NASA? --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1748227829-1122729322=:33578 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Wesley,
     
    I posted about just this topic on ZPEnergy.com recently and it was about Dr. Diaz at JPL. Now I know Jed and others are going say I am whining over this, however if it was Jed getting ripped off, he would not be taking this so lightly. Another clue that my device is being used will be when they claim a breakthrough has been made of a shield for radiation, as I proposed to NASA several years ago. The "good news" is that greed and haste have worked to prevent the technology from being hidden by the US Government, and surprisingly nobody wants to invest in me and profit from my work - sour grapes I suppose, more likely just too unbelievable to believe - at this time. Below is the repost from ZPEnergy
     
    Now, before anyone jumps on me - I was told over a year ago that Diaz was using my device, and from the sound of it - they must have witnessed it, so possibly they work at JPL too. In any case - it mirrors my proposal to Mark Millis, but the contents are confidential.
     
    BTW Wesley, Dave Adair (as I recall) already invented the fusion rocket when he was a young boy - so what was it you were referring to that they are "close" to with a Plasma rocket?
     
    Regards,
    Chris
     
    Re: Propellantless Propulsion G-Engine via Zero g-force WARP Drive - The Math (Score: 1)
    by pulsed_ignition on Thursday, July 28, 2005 19:25:11 PDT
    (User Info | Send a Message) http://members.aol.com/hypercom59
    Gosh Jack, I wonder if the Warp Drive you speak of is anything like what I proposed to Mark Millis at NASA? Hello Mark!!!!! Someone high up at JPL (a Dr.) is supposed to be using the PLASMA that my device produces for propulsion - and I was told it was the #2 project at JPL. As I was told - "Dr. X is not using the mechanical energy that your device produces, he is using the plasma for propulsion." Imagine that? Maybe they were just trying to drive me over the edge in telling me this, but no such luck. If our Government would rather steal it than pay for it - this is nothing new. Thank GOD Clinton is not in charge anymore, or he would just give it to the Chinese.

    ZPE is real and Pulsed Plasma can tap it - which is covered in my US patent.

    Chris


    Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au> wrote:
    One way to defuse the hot fusion critics is to point out how close they
    are to having a workable plasma rocket. Their skills in plasma
    engineering could be so usefully if they stopped banging their head
    against the wall of stable fusion breakeven and simply uses cold fusion
    powered plasma propulsion systems. With a cold fusion powered plasma
    rocket we could get a payload to Mars in under three months at any time
    of the year. Ask them if their saying that their to dumb to do plasma
    drives or plasma sails. Are they saying that the only game their any
    good at is toroidal fusion power; a systems that's been struggling along
    for 60 years without a watt of usable power? Can they only work for
    Department of energy grants? Are they not good enough for NASA?

    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-1748227829-1122729322=:33578-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 06:23:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UDNLZB008236; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:23:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UDNKxr008224; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:23:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:23:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <5594895.1122729784183.JavaMail.root wamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:23:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A response in the Harvard Crimson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually, I was delighted by Barandes' response, for several reasons: Any publicity is good publicity. If every newspaper in the country would print scathing letters attacking CF, readers everywhere would begin to ask themselvesm What's up, and why are these people so upset? It gives me an "in." After printing such a harsh letter, the Crimson may well print my response. Intelligent readers will see through his arguments. As Huxley said of Wilburforce in similar circumstances, "The Lord hath delivered him into my hands." If you cannot debate a smart person, a fool is the second best choice. It is true that Infinite Energy did print some far out stuff -- some too far out, in my opinion. The person who decided to print it was Gene Mallove, who had a PhD from Harvard and one from MIT, too. (This kind of thing matters to the sons of . . . Harvard.) I am thick skinned, and people like Barandes do not bother me. On the contrary, I enjoy rattling their cages and getting the rise out of them. It makes my day to see people like him spout off in places like the Crimson. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 06:51:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UDou1U018873; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:51:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UDosBP018858; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:50:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:50:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5950d$a6ace7b0$f4027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:50:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C594E3.BD48D080"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C594E3.BD48D080 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C594E3.BD4A5720" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C594E3.BD4A5720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Fred wrote.. >Neutral Molecule velocity v =3D (kT/0.5*m)^1/2 (T could be very high = for a neutralized ion) >Is something like this going on in the MAHG and with Mills' Hydrino = catalyst/s? Fred, You amaze me with your insight. I went to a skin doctor some = years ago. He said " stay out of he sun". I suugested the problem was = the small desktop fluorescent lamp. Since that time I have considered = the " artificial" light as a source of OU. During my recent visit to = that doctor he said "I have been thinking about fluorescent light and = you may be correct that natural sunlight plays a lesser role than lamp = but we lack a better method of measuring the role such lamps play in = skin cancer. That triggered the thought that science needs methods of measuring OU = before we spend more time trying to apply it. My thinking has been we = are surrounded with the evidence .We need a believable method of = measuring it. Perhaps a type of bio-genetic instrument may serve the = purpose. My comments regarding CF being a " reaction" , a " counterforce", a = system for maintaining " balance" is re-inforced everytime I read = another hot fusion research report. The task may be described as = attempting to measure centripital forces using a weight scale when it = requires an unlimited amount of slack as in catching a fish. The measure = is in the length of the line extended as required to tire the fish. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C594E3.BD4A5720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
     
    Fred wrote..
     
    >Neutral Molecule velocity  v =3D (kT/0.5*m)^1/2 (T could = be very=20 high for a neutralized ion)
     
    >Is something like this going on in the MAHG and with Mills' = Hydrino=20 catalyst/s?
     
     
    Fred, You amaze me with your insight.  I went to a skin doctor = some=20 years ago. He said " stay out of he sun". I suugested the problem was = the small=20 desktop fluorescent lamp. Since that time I have considered the " = artificial"=20 light as a source of OU. During my recent visit to that doctor he said = "I have=20 been thinking about fluorescent light and you may be correct that = natural=20 sunlight plays a lesser role than lamp but we lack a better =  method of=20 measuring the role such lamps play in skin cancer.
     
    That triggered the thought that science needs methods of measuring = OU=20 before we spend more time trying to apply it. My thinking has been = we are=20 surrounded with the evidence .We need a believable method of measuring=20 it. Perhaps a type of bio-genetic instrument may serve the = purpose.
     
    My comments regarding CF being a " reaction" , a " counterforce", a = system=20 for maintaining " balance" is re-inforced everytime I read another hot = fusion=20 research report. The task may be described as attempting to measure = centripital=20 forces using a weight scale when it requires an unlimited amount of = slack as in=20 catching a fish. The measure is in the length of the line extended as = required=20 to tire the fish.
     
    Richard
    ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C594E3.BD4A5720-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C594E3.BD48D080 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c5950d$a60f9640$f4027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C594E3.BD48D080-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 07:57:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UEuSYE011376; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:56:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UEuR62011366; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:56:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:56:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Rk1ro5LTb9wThJW44MKwKeeuCmZLjb/bkXiM+ozlrzI9DPJKN0AHS0Banz/iLgeA; Message-ID: <411-2200576301356170 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:56:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f3fe62fe1bafe506484323ec361b0a2c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.186 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Richard Macaulay wrote: > > Fred > > I went to a skin doctor some years ago. He said " stay out of he sun". > I suggested the problem was the small desktop fluorescent lamp. > Since that time I have considered the " artificial" light as a source of OU. > During my recent visit to that doctor he said "I have been thinking about > fluorescent light > and you may be correct that natural sunlight plays a > lesser role than lamp but we lack a better method of measuring the role such lamps play > in skin cancer. > > > > Neutral Molecule velocity v = (kT/0.5*m)^1/2 (T could be very high for a neutralized ion) >> Is something like this going on in the MAHG and with Mills' Hydrino catalyst/s? The fluorescent lamp has a 253.7 nm and 184.9 nm mercury UV and lower energy UV that isn't suppoesed to get through the phosphor, glass, and air at close range. OTOH, if the Mills Hydrino-Type "Fractional Orbit" in the argon/mercury or phosphor/glass is being formed, there could be some KeV (soft X-Rays coming out. > > We need a believable method of measuring it. Perhaps a type of bio-genetic > instrument may serve the purpose. > A concentic tube calorimeter around a standard bulb would be a start. Frederick > > Richard > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
    Richard Macaulay wrote:
    >
    > Fred
    >
    >  I went to a skin doctor some years ago. He said " stay out of he sun".
    > I suggested the  problem was the small desktop fluorescent lamp.
    > Since that time I have considered the " artificial" light as a source of OU.
    > During my recent visit to that doctor he said "I have been thinking about
    > fluorescent light > and you may be correct that natural sunlight plays a
    > lesser role than lamp but we lack a better  method of measuring the role such lamps play > in skin cancer.
    >
    >
    > > Neutral Molecule velocity  v = (kT/0.5*m)^1/2 (T could be very high for a neutralized ion)
     
    >> Is something like this going on in the MAHG and with Mills' Hydrino catalyst/s?
     
    The fluorescent lamp has a 253.7 nm and 184.9 nm mercury UV
    and lower energy UV that isn't suppoesed to get through the phosphor, glass,
    and air at close range.
    OTOH, if the Mills Hydrino-Type "Fractional Orbit"  in the argon/mercury or
    phosphor/glass is being formed, there could be some KeV (soft X-Rays
    coming out.
    >
    > We need a believable method of measuring it. Perhaps a type of bio-genetic
    > instrument may serve the purpose.
    >
    A concentic tube calorimeter around a standard bulb would be a start.
     
    Frederick
     
    >
    > Richard
    > 
     
    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Id: <410-2200576301356141401 13071999> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 09:38:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UGbgaR015187; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:37:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UGbew4015173; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:37:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:37:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EBAD15.90207 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:38:45 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA8E63.3060902@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729163955.0448eeb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729183824.04485070@pop.mindspring.com> <42EAE869.1040206@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <42EAE869.1040206 iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Jed and Ed interesting string. I happen to have a degree that includes > both the economics and environmental subjects your covering. > I've learned a few interesting things over the years. > > * Very few technological and environmental disasters have occurred > that were not predicted and thus preventable. I can't think of > one. Even Enron's fraud and collapse was predicted by people > (Austrian economists) that guessed early on that they were (had to > be) fraudulent. The original shuttle design had an escape pod > bridge with extra heat shielding but it added several tons. It was > dropped from the design so she could carry more tons of cargo. I have come to the same conclusion, Wesley. However, the resulting disasters are having increasingly greater global consequences. No longer are only the stupid or willful who make the mistakes paying the price. Because nothing can be done to stop the process, it does not take much foresight to predict exactly what will happen to civilization in the future. Many science fiction writers have already explored this subject and the future does not look good. > * Convenience beats commonsense every time so our solutions must be > convenient. The inconvenient solution such as recycling everything > is beaten by the convenience of a single rubbish bin. I suggest this depends on how valuable the rubbish is. In many poor countries, people make a living separating rubbish after it has been dumped in a single "bin". This combines convenience with commonsense, as long as you are not the separator. Even in rich countries, scrap steel is separated because it is sufficiently valuable. > * Technological solutions don't come when the greens, the lobbyists > or even the public clamor for them or when the investor invents > them. It comes when the society is willing to invest and pay for > them. We are on that threshold with oil at $50 a barrel. This > actually means they seem to come late from the greens and the > Lobbyists point of view. Frustratingly late from the inventor's > point of view but its perfectly on time from the point of view of > the market. Governments don't seem to have had an influence even > in a time of war; even they have to pay the going rate eventually > either in favors (which cost them dearly later) or cash. While the solution may be realized when needed, implementing the solution takes time. Everyone now knows that generating energy from nonorganic sources is practical and necessary. However, to make the change will take years while many bad consequences will continue to accumulate. A leader is supposed to have the ability to think ahead and anticipate problems and solutions that are unknown to the ordinary person. Instead we get leaders who see a problem only after it is obvious to a moron, or is this perhaps a mild exaggeration? > * If there's land to migrate into or conquer its economicly viable > to run an ecosystem down to desert to build up the resorces to > launch the campain. The desert makers of history are not short > sighted they often had their sights set on someone elses land. I suppose this has occurred in the past. However, what is the present excuse? In spite of being rather bitter and cynical, I nevertheless would like to see a rational debate and acknowledgment of the serious problems that we all are facing. Hopefully, my comments can generate some discussion on Vortex. After all, the usual discussion of the various scientific theories will have little importance if these social and economic problems are not solved. Regards, Ed > > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> I wrote: >> >>> When a society feels a strong need for a tool, and the tool is >>> technically within its grasp (meaning it does not require any >>> fundamental new discovery), development becomes inevitable. >> >> >> >> That does not mean we always invent things when we need them. >> Necessity alone is insufficient. We must also "feel a strong need." We >> have to agree as a society that the problem exists and it should be >> solved. >> >> I think the US desperately needs better automobiles and a replacement >> for oil. But unfortunately, the Congress and most citizens do not >> agree, and they do not feel any need to address these problems. Good >> solutions have already been invented, such as hybrid and diesel >> engines. But we are ignoring these innovations. We may go on ignoring >> them until we are destroyed by pollution or terrorism financed from >> oil profits. >> >> Sometimes, societies feel a strong need to invent things that serve no >> purpose, such as the ancient Egyptian pyramids or the Space Shuttle. >> >> - Jed >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 10:31:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UHV3QB005406; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:31:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UHV1tB005384; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:31:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:31:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001201c5952c$65379bd0$f4027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Ed's Storms hope Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:30:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C59502.7BE5AD10"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_74, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C59502.7BE5AD10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C59502.7BE5AD10" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C59502.7BE5AD10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankEd Storms wrote in the " are things really getting too = complicated?" thread. >opefully, my comments can generate=20 >ome discussion on Vortex. After all, the usual discussion of the=20 >arious scientific theories will have little importance if these social=20 >and economic problems are not solved. I will give an example. Solid waste recycling in the USA. Background: Alcoa has a large mine and aluminun smelter at Rockdale = Texas just outside of Austin. They stripmine lignite coal to fire the = electric power generating plant for their electric furnaces. The plant = has whiskers from WW2.Alcoa wishes to deactivate the facility because = its a money loser and the environmental issues are a nightmare plus = their ground water is becoming more profitable to sell than use. Recycling metals alone have become a large business and China is the big = buyer. Consumer products like appliances, refrigerators, TV, computers, = plastics and metals are being disposed in landfills because there is no = feasible system in place for recycling.=20 One suggestion for use of the some 60,000 acres and power plant is a = private-public consortium corporation for a massive recylcing facility. = Almost all the infrastructure for this puppose exists at the location = from natural gas, water, electric power. land, open pit mining and rail = service. Small recycling experiments have demonstrated scale of size is = required to make the effort feasible. A multi-state effort directed = toward recycling materials can reach acceptable cost- benefit ratios. = Alcoa is open to suggestions and have expressed a willingness to work on = a plan in lieu of mothballing the facility. A plan could be put together = that would permit Alcoa to make money two ways while addressing an issue = that has lingered too long without a action plan. State and national organizations espousing an environmental agenda have = been contacted regarding this proposal. The contact has been met with = silence.this leaves onewondering aboutthe purpose of thesetax exempt = advocates : are they in business to serve the public interest or they in = business for another purpose? Ed, we have solutions for many of the nation's ills staring us in the = face but it is difficult to have our leaders focus on the " necessary" = when their attention is directed on where the money is.. politics! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C59502.7BE5AD10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Ed Storms wrote in the " are things really getting too = complicated?"=20 thread.

    >opefully, my comments can generate
    >ome discussion on=20 Vortex.  After all, the usual discussion of the
    >arious = scientific=20 theories will have little importance if these social
    >and = economic=20 problems are not solved.

    I will give an example. Solid waste recycling in the USA.

    Background: Alcoa has a large mine and aluminun smelter at Rockdale = Texas=20 just outside of Austin. They stripmine lignite coal to fire the electric = power=20 generating plant for their electric furnaces. The plant has whiskers = from=20 WW2.Alcoa wishes to deactivate the facility because its a money loser = and the=20 environmental issues are a nightmare plus their ground water is becoming = more=20 profitable to sell than use.

    Recycling metals alone have become a large business and China is the = big=20 buyer. Consumer products like appliances, refrigerators, TV, computers, = plastics=20 and metals are being disposed in landfills because there is no feasible = system=20 in place for recycling.

    One suggestion for use of the some 60,000 acres and power plant is a=20 private-public consortium corporation for a massive recylcing facility. = Almost=20 all the infrastructure for this puppose exists at the location from = natural gas,=20 water, electric power. land, open pit mining and rail service. Small = recycling=20 experiments have demonstrated scale of size is required to make the = effort=20 feasible. A multi-state effort directed toward recycling materials can = reach=20 acceptable cost- benefit ratios.  Alcoa is open to suggestions and = have=20 expressed a willingness to work on a plan in lieu of mothballing the = facility. A=20 plan could be put together that would permit Alcoa to make money two = ways while=20 addressing an issue that has lingered too long without a action = plan.

    State and national organizations espousing an environmental agenda = have been=20 contacted regarding this proposal. The contact has been met with = silence.this=20 leaves onewondering aboutthe purpose of thesetax exempt advocates : are = they in=20 business to serve the public interest or they in business for another=20 purpose?

    Ed, we have solutions for many of the nation's ills staring us in the = face=20 but it is difficult to have our leaders focus on the " necessary" when = their=20 attention is directed on where the money is.. politics!

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C59502.7BE5AD10-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C59502.7BE5AD10 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c5952c$64ac72d0$f4027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C59502.7BE5AD10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 11:15:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UIFELW024592; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:15:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UIFCT8024574; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:15:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:15:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:14:48 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Message-ID: <42EB9968.28453.813F7EE mark.cpovo.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <411-2200576301356170 earthlink.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.30 public beta 1) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:21:36 -0300 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 200.203.35.123 X-MDRemoteIP: 200.203.35.123 X-Return-Path: mark cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:21:37 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 30 Jul 2005 at 8:56, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Thefluorescent lamp has a 253.7 nm and 184.9 nm mercury UV > and lower energy UV that isn't supposed to get through the > phosphor, glass, and air at close range. > OTOH, if the Mills Hydrino-Type "Fractional Orbit" in the > argon/mercury or phosphor/glass is being formed, there > could be some KeV (soft X-Rays) coming out. > > A concentic tube calorimeter around a standard bulb would be > a start. > > Frederick > Here is a copy/paste of a related message from the freenrg-l list: ---------------------- You might also be interested in knowing about the Imris' circuit (US patent #3,781,601): http://tinyurl.com/9fc9f :: An optical generator of an electrostatic field at light frequencies for use in an electrical circuit, said generator having a pair of spaced apart electrodes in a gas-filled tube of quartz glass or similar material with at least one condenser cap or plate adjacent one :electrode and a dielectric-filled container enclosing the tube, the generator substantially increasing the electrical efficiency of the electrical circuit. :: An optical electrostatic generator which is effective for producing high frequencies in the visible light range of about 10^14 to 10^23 Hz. :: The present optical electrostatic generator does not perform in accordance with the accepted norms and standards of ordinary electromagnetic frequencies. :: The device can be used in a flourescent lighting circuit, with motors, flash lamps, high speed controls, laser beams, high energy pulses, electrostatic particle precipitation, chemical synthesis (such as ozone generation), and charging means for high voltage generators of the VandeGraph type, as well as particle accelerators. . . . :: The device removes the component of electricity which produces heat. For flourescent lighting, Imris shorted the pins on the ends of the tubes, indicating that the filaments are not used, or necessary. At higher pressures, the device becomes Over Unity. For instance, with a Xenon filled tube at 5,000 torr in a series circuit with 100 x 40 Watt fluorescent lamps (with a single wire going to each end of each lamp), the optical generator pulls 332 Watts, with each lamp pulling 9 tenths Watt (at 5 Volts) for 3,200 lumens output (8.8 Watts) per tube - giving a total for the circuit of 880 Watts output for 442 Watts input. As far as the compact flourescents - what I call the Scalar light bulb - I know someone who is using the circuits to power normal flourescent lamps, so you might try one of the circuits with a burned out tube. If the voltage pulse it puts out can jump the break in your filament, it might still work. If not, try reversing the tube, on the chance that only one filament is bad, in case the two outputs of the circuit are different. If all else fails, try putting an interruptor in the AC line going to the circuit. Regards, Jerry ------------------------------ The dimensions given in the patent example are very similar to one of those 8Watt fluorescent tubes! Mark Jordan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 12:42:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UJfhZs026516; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:41:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UJfg64026504; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:41:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:41:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHhKDVwVfEMSvFOhVTlcvqCMkhCbXqQ6iNw== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.38.72] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:40:16 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050730.124023.21367.196506 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 6:3:3646449176 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.158|webmail18.nyc.untd.com|outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gentlemen- This is one thing that I strongly believe in- I think we should have one hundred percent recycling. IT can never work at anthing less than county or state level. I do believe it would create jobs at all levels of education. It should create a safer eviroment-put valuable metals back for reuse-create hydrocarbons for energy, free up land for farming. All people would have to presort ther own garbabge- or pay for the the priveldge of not sorting. This will probably be one of our future job creating endevores- since the manufacturing is moving to China or mexico- the computer programming moving to India or China- the only thing left will fix it services or junket services.with a little bit of retail and food services thrown in. ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 12:57:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UJvYD3032459; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:57:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UJvWJ2032441; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:57:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:57:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EBDBED.4070205 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:58:37 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope References: <001201c5952c$65379bd0$f4027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <001201c5952c$65379bd0$f4027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A very good example, Richard. The question is, how can we get our leaders to go back to doing what they were elected to do, i.e. take care of the nation, instead of doing everything to take care of their own reelection by raising money and appearing Godly? To go one step further, the issue is no longer a conflict between Liberal and Conservative, although the administration likes to distract attention by using this classical conflict. In fact, the government is not conservative by any conventional definition. We would not have the largest national debt in our history or in the history of any other country if Conservatives were in charge. In addition, we would not be fighting a losing a war based on lies and be roundly hated by many if the government were following conservative principles. I say this even though I'm not a Conservative. The debate should not focus on conflict between honest people, but on how we all are going to survive if the ship sinks. China and India are drilling holes in our economy while the government focuses on when life begins, social security, and who is more conservative and Godly. Meanwhile, events are underway that will make these issues completely unimportant to the average person who is out of work, has lost his home through foreclosure, and who can not pay the heating bill in his small rented apartment. This is not science, not even rocket science, but it is important and it is going to affect us all. Isn't this a subject worth discussing without conflict? Ed RC Macaulay wrote: > Ed Storms wrote in the " are things really getting too complicated?" thread. > > >opefully, my comments can generate > >ome discussion on Vortex. After all, the usual discussion of the > >arious scientific theories will have little importance if these social > >and economic problems are not solved. > > I will give an example. Solid waste recycling in the USA. > > Background: Alcoa has a large mine and aluminun smelter at Rockdale > Texas just outside of Austin. They stripmine lignite coal to fire the > electric power generating plant for their electric furnaces. The plant > has whiskers from WW2.Alcoa wishes to deactivate the facility because > its a money loser and the environmental issues are a nightmare plus > their ground water is becoming more profitable to sell than use. > > Recycling metals alone have become a large business and China is the big > buyer. Consumer products like appliances, refrigerators, TV, computers, > plastics and metals are being disposed in landfills because there is no > feasible system in place for recycling. > > One suggestion for use of the some 60,000 acres and power plant is a > private-public consortium corporation for a massive recylcing facility. > Almost all the infrastructure for this puppose exists at the location > from natural gas, water, electric power. land, open pit mining and rail > service. Small recycling experiments have demonstrated scale of size is > required to make the effort feasible. A multi-state effort directed > toward recycling materials can reach acceptable cost- benefit ratios. > Alcoa is open to suggestions and have expressed a willingness to work on > a plan in lieu of mothballing the facility. A plan could be put together > that would permit Alcoa to make money two ways while addressing an issue > that has lingered too long without a action plan. > > State and national organizations espousing an environmental agenda have > been contacted regarding this proposal. The contact has been met with > silence.this leaves onewondering aboutthe purpose of thesetax exempt > advocates : are they in business to serve the public interest or they in > business for another purpose? > > Ed, we have solutions for many of the nation's ills staring us in the > face but it is difficult to have our leaders focus on the " necessary" > when their attention is directed on where the money is.. politics! > > Richard > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 13:24:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6UKOR9x011838; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:24:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6UKOMY6011794; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:24:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:24:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.1.179] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:18:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050730201856.ZUWN3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "gesrebspar juno.com" > Gentlemen- This is one thing that I strongly believe in- > I think we should have one hundred percent recycling. Hear here! When I was young, looooong ago, I used to take my toys apart. Those little tin vehicles had wind-up motors and were made in Japan, a sign of my parents' lack of wealth. I will never forget the day my father recognized words written on the inside of my little tin fire truck . . . "Pabst". The body had been made from a beer can. Today all my vehicles are Japanese. They are TOYotas. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 14:23:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6ULMfO4003402; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:22:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6ULMdck003395; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:22:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:22:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <4b8bbf1b-6e43-41a3-a3d7-edc084d1c5bf> Message-ID: <004101c5954c$be4ce250$e75bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050730.124023.21367.196506 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:17:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Guess what, guys, recycling is a complex, nasty problem, not easily solved, as difficult as anything else in society, and screaming at the government isn't going to fix it. Like many things, market necessity is the driver and things happen when it hurts enough. Yes, the government can help with studies and subsidies and rules. But when the rubber hits the road, its technology, a technology whose messiness is only appreciated when you get serious about it. For starters, it is like unscrambling eggs. It's rewarding to find a concentrated source of soemthing -- copper, silver, aluminum, coal, oil, water, and make a mint out of mining it and distributing it far and wide. Like entropy, it is **much harder** to collect all that dispersed material and concentrate it so it can be use to make more gizmos. A classic case is silver. There is no substitue for silver in classical film photography [for all the rush to digital, which is good, the equipment is too expensive for much of the world]. There is a finite amount of silver. Film processing recovers much of that silver, and is standard in the commercial processing industry, but not all is recovered, so the existing silver is gradually spread over hundreds of square miles of film throughout the world. A car has lots of materials all mixed together. If you just melted it all down, it would take lots of energy [from where, at what environmental impact?], create a toxic mess while boiling and burbling, and then present a real messy refining problem to isolate again in pure form all the elements that went into it. Rubber tires are another mess. Built for durability under stress, they don't come apart easily. Just sorting and handling is a problem, much less recovering the rubber. What about the steel belts? Do you use the rubber for paving or burn it? Rubber is a highly energetic fuel, but burning it requires strict technology to prevent a major toxic source. One can say that citizen-consumers should contribute a fraction of their time to sorting waste [to prevent contamination of recycling plants] if they can devote hours to shopping for the junk in the first place. But, typically they rebel at this. My community has minimal rules and runs a sorting facility using a mixture of technology and humans to sort our the waste stream into useful stuff. Much ingenuity can be applied. One thing is certain -- it takes energy to mine and distribute the stuff, but that energy is not recovered in recycling. No, it takes still more energy to re-concentrate the dispersed materials. We are not going to get out of this mess with existing energy sources. Pray for CF and keep an eye on BlackLight Power. BLP is better organized and closer to the starting gate than anyone else. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 20:14:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6V3EEOC015337; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:14:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6V3EBxE015312; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:14:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:14:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001501c5957d$dc0653e0$f7027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Ed's Stroms hope Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:13:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59553.F1F581F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_34, J_CHICKENPOX_74,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59553.F1F581F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C59553.F1F70890" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C59553.F1F70890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMike Carrell >Guess what, guys, recycling is a complex, nasty problem, not easily = solved, as difficult as anything else in society, and screaming at the = government isn't going to fix it. Like many things, market necessity is the driver = and things happen when it hurts enough. Yes, the government can help with studies and subsidies and rules. But when the rubber hits the road, its technology, a technology whose messiness is only appreciated when you = get serious about it. >For starters, it is like unscrambling eggs. Mike, all so true. Brooklyn solved the problem by railcar to wesr Texas = landfills.err.. if that is considered a solution. MacDonald's will solve = the problem with disposable styrofoam containers when the price of = plastic reachs their null point. Meanwhile back at the ranch here in Texas, we have 60,000 acres of = strip mine staring us in the face. Anyone have any ideas what to do with = it. Talk about messy !! its like an open sore.There ain't much use for = it. My thoughts on recycling is based on the existing infrastucture " on the = ground". The technology for recycling exists.. albeit in bits and pieces = in small scale enterprises.. but it exists. So much of what we face as = daunting tasks become feasible when applying the magic of reasoned = thought and purpose. The thought I had in suggesting recycling on a grand scale was to give = feet to Ed's suggestion by way of example. My underlying purpose is to = demonstrate the Vortex group has " moxie" we are underutilizing. CF = studies are needed. Studies cost money and require teamwork. Teamwork = requires co-operation. Co- operation requires university participation. = Looking at the formidable task ahead is like planning a marketing = program. The person that said " build a better mousetrap and people = will come knocking on your door" failed to grasp the fundamentals of the = game. The reality is " show me somebody that can sell mousetraps and I = can build all you can sell". CF research must be sold as an existing product.sell the " sizzle" and = not the steak. What is the sizzle in CF? It is NOT the energy it = produces, it is the convenience and usefulness it affords The safety and = cleanliness. The recycling ability and the abundance. It must be sold as = a prduct and not as an objection to hot fusion. That is the concept that must be sold as sizzle. How to ? you ask ? = Credibility in science. Credibility is " earned" by performance. = Performance in CF cannot be achieved without having CF " in the fist".. = unless.. the salemen for CF research can demonstrate " bona-fieds" . = One such way is to present a series of thought provoking ideas that are = credible. The instant acceptance the group exhibited to the idea for " recycling" = demonstrates an abiity of Vortex to use imagination. Credible ideas can = overcome resistance of the leadership cadre at the university and = government funding levels by demostrating credibility in other fields = of technology and need. Water, air,food, energy, healthcare, = recycling.. the basics. Selling requires a marketing plan, a basic = strategy.. similar to war. The object being to conquer. For Vortexians, anyone have any ideas for how to sell mousetraps? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C59553.F1F70890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    Mike Carrell

    >Guess what, guys, recycling is a complex, nasty problem, not = easily=20 solved,
    as difficult as anything else in society, and screaming at = the=20 government
    isn't going to fix it. Like many things, market necessity = is the=20 driver and
    things happen when it hurts enough. Yes, the government = can help=20 with
    studies and subsidies and rules. But when the rubber hits the = road,=20 its
    technology, a technology whose messiness is only appreciated when = you=20 get
    serious about it.

    >For starters, it is like = unscrambling=20 eggs.

    Mike, all so true. Brooklyn solved the problem by railcar to wesr = Texas=20 landfills.err.. if that is considered a solution. MacDonald's will solve = the=20 problem with disposable styrofoam containers when the price of plastic = reachs=20 their null point.

    Meanwhile back at the ranch here in Texas, we have 60,000 acres = of =20 strip mine staring us in the face. Anyone have any ideas what to do with = it.=20 Talk about messy !! its like an open sore.There ain't much use for = it.

    My thoughts on recycling is based on the existing = infrastucture "=20 on the ground". The technology for recycling exists.. albeit in bits and = pieces=20 in small scale enterprises.. but it exists. So much of what we face as = daunting=20 tasks become feasible when applying the magic of reasoned thought and=20 purpose.

    The  thought I had in suggesting recycling on a grand scale was = to give=20 feet to Ed's suggestion by way of example. My underlying purpose is to=20 demonstrate the Vortex group has " moxie" we are underutilizing.  = CF=20 studies are needed. Studies cost money and require teamwork. Teamwork = requires=20 co-operation. Co- operation requires university participation. Looking = at the=20 formidable task ahead is like planning a marketing program. = The person that=20 said  " build a better mousetrap and people will come knocking on = your=20 door" failed to grasp the fundamentals of the game. The reality is " = show me=20 somebody that can sell mousetraps and I can build all you can sell".

    CF research must be sold as an existing product.sell the " sizzle" = and not=20 the steak. What is the sizzle in CF? It is NOT the energy it produces, = it is the=20 convenience and usefulness it affords The safety and cleanliness. The = recycling=20 ability and the abundance. It must be sold as a prduct and not as an = objection=20 to hot fusion.

    That is the concept that must be sold as sizzle. How to ? you ask = ? =20 Credibility in science. Credibility is " earned" by performance. = Performance in=20 CF  cannot be achieved without having CF " in the fist".. = unless.. the=20 salemen for CF research can demonstrate  = " bona-fieds" . One=20 such way is to present a series of thought provoking ideas that are=20 credible.

    The instant acceptance the group exhibited to the idea for " = recycling"=20 demonstrates an abiity of Vortex to use = imagination. Credible=20 ideas  can overcome resistance of  the leadership = cadre at=20 the university  and government funding = levels by   =20 demostrating credibility in other fields of technology and need. Water,=20 air,food,  energy, healthcare, recycling.. the basics. Selling = requires a=20 marketing plan, a basic strategy.. similar to war. The object being to=20 conquer.

     For Vortexians, anyone have any ideas for how to sell = mousetraps?

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C59553.F1F70890-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59553.F1F581F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c5957d$daae6500$f7027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59553.F1F581F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 20:48:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6V3m35E026291; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:48:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6V3m2Ai026272; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:48:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:48:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EC49E0.8090404 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:47:44 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA8E63.3060902@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729163955.0448eeb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729183824.04485070@pop.mindspring.com> <42EAE869.1040206@iinet.net.au> <42EBAD15.90207@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <42EBAD15.90207 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well said Ed. I come from a church background so I guess I see human short sightedness and stupidity as normal and unsurprising. Christian theology teaches that this is a broken world on the wrong path. I'm making efforts to reach some influential people in the church net works I'm in so they don't take the wrong side of things when cold fusion 'pops out of the box' and surprises millions. Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> Jed and Ed interesting string. I happen to have a degree that >> includes both the economics and environmental subjects your covering. >> I've learned a few interesting things over the years. >> >> * Very few technological and environmental disasters have occurred >> that were not predicted and thus preventable. I can't think of >> one. Even Enron's fraud and collapse was predicted by people >> (Austrian economists) that guessed early on that they were (had to >> be) fraudulent. The original shuttle design had an escape pod >> bridge with extra heat shielding but it added several tons. It was >> dropped from the design so she could carry more tons of cargo. > > > I have come to the same conclusion, Wesley. However, the resulting > disasters are having increasingly greater global consequences. No > longer are only the stupid or willful who make the mistakes paying the > price. Because nothing can be done to stop the process, it does not > take much foresight to predict exactly what will happen to > civilization in the future. Many science fiction writers have already > explored this subject and the future does not look good. > > >> * Convenience beats commonsense every time so our solutions must be >> convenient. The inconvenient solution such as recycling everything >> is beaten by the convenience of a single rubbish bin. > > > I suggest this depends on how valuable the rubbish is. In many poor > countries, people make a living separating rubbish after it has been > dumped in a single "bin". This combines convenience with commonsense, > as long as you are not the separator. Even in rich countries, scrap > steel is separated because it is sufficiently valuable. > >> * Technological solutions don't come when the greens, the lobbyists >> or even the public clamor for them or when the investor invents >> them. It comes when the society is willing to invest and pay for >> them. We are on that threshold with oil at $50 a barrel. This >> actually means they seem to come late from the greens and the >> Lobbyists point of view. Frustratingly late from the inventor's >> point of view but its perfectly on time from the point of view of >> the market. Governments don't seem to have had an influence even >> in a time of war; even they have to pay the going rate eventually >> either in favors (which cost them dearly later) or cash. > > > While the solution may be realized when needed, implementing the > solution takes time. Everyone now knows that generating energy from > nonorganic sources is practical and necessary. However, to make the > change will take years while many bad consequences will continue to > accumulate. A leader is supposed to have the ability to think ahead > and anticipate problems and solutions that are unknown to the ordinary > person. Instead we get leaders who see a problem only after it is > obvious to a moron, or is this perhaps a mild exaggeration? > >> * If there's land to migrate into or conquer its economicly viable >> to run an ecosystem down to desert to build up the resorces to >> launch the campain. The desert makers of history are not short >> sighted they often had their sights set on someone elses land. > > > I suppose this has occurred in the past. However, what is the present > excuse? In spite of being rather bitter and cynical, I nevertheless > would like to see a rational debate and acknowledgment of the serious > problems that we all are facing. Hopefully, my comments can generate > some discussion on Vortex. After all, the usual discussion of the > various scientific theories will have little importance if these > social and economic problems are not solved. > > Regards, > Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 21:03:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6V43OBq000457; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:03:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6V43N6D000431; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:03:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:03:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EC4BEF.8010402 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:56:31 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope References: <001201c5952c$65379bd0$f4027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <001201c5952c$65379bd0$f4027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's the key to recycling? The energy and transport costs involved. Distributed resources have a large transport energy cost. If CF reduces energy costs in transport by 60%, as Jed says it should, a lot of recycling will become viable. RC Macaulay wrote: > Ed Storms wrote in the " are things really getting too complicated?" > thread. > > >opefully, my comments can generate > >ome discussion on Vortex. After all, the usual discussion of the > >arious scientific theories will have little importance if these social > >and economic problems are not solved. > > I will give an example. Solid waste recycling in the USA. > > Background: Alcoa has a large mine and aluminun smelter at Rockdale > Texas just outside of Austin. They stripmine lignite coal to fire the > electric power generating plant for their electric furnaces. The plant > has whiskers from WW2.Alcoa wishes to deactivate the facility because > its a money loser and the environmental issues are a nightmare plus > their ground water is becoming more profitable to sell than use. > > Recycling metals alone have become a large business and China is the > big buyer. Consumer products like appliances, refrigerators, TV, > computers, plastics and metals are being disposed in landfills because > there is no feasible system in place for recycling. > > One suggestion for use of the some 60,000 acres and power plant is a > private-public consortium corporation for a massive recylcing > facility. Almost all the infrastructure for this puppose exists at the > location from natural gas, water, electric power. land, open pit > mining and rail service. Small recycling experiments have demonstrated > scale of size is required to make the effort feasible. A multi-state > effort directed toward recycling materials can reach acceptable cost- > benefit ratios. Alcoa is open to suggestions and have expressed a > willingness to work on a plan in lieu of mothballing the facility. A > plan could be put together that would permit Alcoa to make money two > ways while addressing an issue that has lingered too long without a > action plan. > > State and national organizations espousing an environmental agenda > have been contacted regarding this proposal. The contact has been met > with silence.this leaves onewondering aboutthe purpose of thesetax > exempt advocates : are they in business to serve the public interest > or they in business for another purpose? > > Ed, we have solutions for many of the nation's ills staring us in the > face but it is difficult to have our leaders focus on the " necessary" > when their attention is directed on where the money is.. politics! > > Richard > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 21:30:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6V4U9HS009349; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:30:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6V482X3002394; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:08:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:08:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EC4E97.50902 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:07:51 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling References: <20050730.124023.21367.196506 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> <004101c5954c$be4ce250$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <004101c5954c$be4ce250$e75bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike your perfectly correct but there's a push in industry to design easily recyclable things from computers to fridges to cars. The key is to not mix things up so they can be pulled apart by a single person with some hand tools or a robot built for the job. There's an amazing amount of R&D going into 'designed disassembly'. Mike Carrell wrote: >Guess what, guys, recycling is a complex, nasty problem, not easily solved, >as difficult as anything else in society, and screaming at the government >isn't going to fix it. Like many things, market necessity is the driver and >things happen when it hurts enough. Yes, the government can help with >studies and subsidies and rules. But when the rubber hits the road, its >technology, a technology whose messiness is only appreciated when you get >serious about it. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 05:51:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VCp65S003067; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:51:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VCoxKF003015; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:50:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:50:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RxiRQtAubP8KE5QZ3MvTCWQm1ArS2ZCWSNKDSIG0mp33sFz0FgOIpR/1GRlW1MmP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220057031115056600 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:50:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fe634995d671bbbcd9d340fc7418af98350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mark Jordan wrote: > > Here is a copy/paste of a related message from the freenrg-l list: > > You might also be interested in knowing about the Imris' circuit > (US patent #3,781,601): > > http://tinyurl.com/9fc9f > Thanks, Mark. A single tube 4 foot - 40 watt fluorescent shop light with electronic ballast runs about $20.00 at Lowes. These are probably operating between 40 to 60 KHz which allows plenty of time for the atoms/molecules to collide at the estimated 1,000 meter/sec Argon (6.64E-26 kg) and 500 meter/sec Mercury (3.32E-25 kg) velocities (based on a 3000 K gas temperature. According to this collision calculator for Argon-Mercury or H2 (3.32E-27 kg) -Argon etc., the Argon atom can gain a 50% increase in velocity from an elastic collision with a Mercury atom rebounding from a wall collision at - 500 meter/second. If I didn't goof this would mean a 50% OU "kinetic energy" gain? http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/colsta.html#c4 Not much advantage in going to Hydrogen-Mercury (3000 K H2 v = 5000 meter/sec) but this doesn't square with the Double Ball Drop thing: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html " If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball like a large superball, the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high velocity, theoretically approaching three times the velocity with which the balls strike the surface. The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic collisions and in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits used in space exploration have features in common with this situation even though the objects involved never touch each other." I probably ain't got my vectors added right. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Mark Jordan wrote:
    >
    >  Here is a copy/paste of a related message from the freenrg-l list:
    > 
    >  You might also be interested in knowing about the Imris' circuit
    > (US patent #3,781,601):
    >
    >
    Thanks, Mark.
     
    A single tube 4 foot - 40 watt fluorescent  shop light  with electronic ballast runs about $20.00
    at Lowes.
    These are probably operating between 40 to 60 KHz which allows plenty of time for
    the atoms/molecules to collide at the estimated 1,000 meter/sec Argon (6.64E-26 kg) and 500 meter/sec
    Mercury  (3.32E-25 kg) velocities (based on a 3000 K gas temperature.
     
    According to this collision calculator for Argon-Mercury or H2 (3.32E-27 kg) -Argon etc.,
    the Argon atom can gain a 50% increase in velocity from an elastic collision with
    a Mercury atom rebounding from a wall collision at   - 500 meter/second.
    If I didn't goof this would mean a 50% OU "kinetic energy" gain?
     
     
    Not much advantage in going to Hydrogen-Mercury (3000 K H2  v = 5000 meter/sec) but
    this doesn't square with the Double Ball Drop thing:
     
     
    " If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball like a large superball, the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high velocity, theoretically approaching three times the velocity with which the balls strike the surface. The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic collisions and in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits used in space exploration have features in common with this situation even though the objects involved never touch each other."
     
    I probably ain't got my vectors added right.  :-)
     
    Frederick
     
     
     

    ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 06:22:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VDLtlc017702; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:22:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VDLs2w017695; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:21:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:21:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <6ad776f2-5d80-437c-8698-6d2316cbfd3e> Message-ID: <006601c595d2$c2100df0$e75bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050730.124023.21367.196506 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> <004101c5954c$be4ce250$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42EC4E97.50902@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:21:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Wesley Bruce" Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling > Mike your perfectly correct but there's a push in industry to design > easily recyclable things from computers to fridges to cars. The key is > to not mix things up so they can be pulled apart by a single person with > some hand tools or a robot built for the job. There's an amazing amount > of R&D going into 'designed disassembly'. Wesley, you are also correct and after I wrote my piece I remembered that at least one auto manufacturer is producing cars that can easily be [partially] disassembled for segregating into recycling programs. But this illustrates my point; it's a complex technical problem. It requires substantial rethinking to design a car that is easy to put together and sturdy [welded unitbody frame], durable, and also easy to take apart. The old way was to strip out the seats, engine and transmission, and crush the rest for remelting. The R&D incrementally increases the cost of production without direct benefit to the manufacturer, but CEOs can have a sense of public responsibility despite what some rabid skeptics think. I know a bit about robotics, and they are not yet the universal remedy. They are all dumb and require programming for specific tasks. A 'simple' task like plucking a part from a bin or from a moving conveyor requires a very sophisticated machine vision system. All this technology is moving at a rapid pace but we are still a very long way from the sophistication necessary to deal with an unstructured task like sorting junk. Recycling centers can use magnetic fields to remove iron and steel from a stream, and perhaps aluminum, but the rest requires humans to look and grab. It's tiring, there is exposure to toxins, and all the rest. Yes, it gives bottom rung employment but again there are workers in developing countries who are also desperate for work and for whom life is everywhere hazardous, so what's one more hazard? Thus the economic advantage of shipping all the waste elsewhere. No easy answers here. My mantra has been that CF and BLP energy will not automatically solve all our problems, but it enables many potential solutions -- and it looks very grim without these. > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >Guess what, guys, recycling is a complex, nasty problem, not easily solved, > >as difficult as anything else in society, and screaming at the government > >isn't going to fix it. Like many things, market necessity is the driver and > >things happen when it hurts enough. Yes, the government can help with > >studies and subsidies and rules. But when the rubber hits the road, its > >technology, a technology whose messiness is only appreciated when you get > >serious about it. > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 06:26:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VDPi3X019415; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:25:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VDPgH7019388; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:25:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:25:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Vn0CIChtlamYVfebOn4cKsG7dVvo2OBdgOc3DMwYl1Eb4SLBVAK4TtAEx01mY1MQ9CCQyLFl9r+bcdzstgo2dYQ0dDcmwTsFpRS9hBXoqNCdaAr643y2lC6WzHwG93A8dI4QVbjr2/ptHQ5NTIJWoNW5ymfCxknNwwIwGmkx5fw= ; Message-ID: <20050731132510.78713.qmail web33310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:25:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Successful Solid Synthetic Diamond made - Finally. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20050725233324.021af508 pop.theworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-779111593-1122816310=:76902" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-779111593-1122816310=:76902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Saturday 7/23/05 I was "finally" successful (after over a year of trying) to convert my synthetic diamond powder into a solid pellet that would prove the phase shift from powder to solid diamond would occur at pressures far less than required for sintering diamond powders into polycrystalline diamond or single crystals. The only problem is upon phase shift into a solid diamond, the material bonded to the inside wall of the custom High Pressure High Temperature (HTHP) chamber and I now needed to hire an EDM shop to cut out and return a one-piece cylinder containing the diamond and pressure pistons inside - so investor meetings could finally be held to finally show the proof that waited within the chamber. The pressure pistons would not budge a micron with over 2 Million PSI applied to them to push them thru - proving something solid and immovable was within. A local EDM shop was referred by an EDM manufacturer and very specific and detailed instructions were given for cutting around the diamond. Under no circumstances was the diamond or pressure pistons to be touched by the plasma, as I would cut it out of its enclosure myself. The first thing he did was cut out the diamond and stole it, now the local police are involved and the FBI has been contacted. Without that immovable pellet – over six years of seeking funding is over, and I cannot afford to buy another HTHP chamber or wait the 3 months for it to arrive. On top of that someone else has my prototype diamond, made from my unique diamond powder and I can’t begin to start the patent on it until I “see” it and test it. I refinanced my house four months ago because nobody in the industry would believe me except Novatech Diamond, and they only wanted a minimum of $5000 to press my material into wafers or $2 Million for a diamond press - so I did it myself with my own money – and now some asshole has shattered almost 7 years worth of progress and personal investments in a single criminal act. This is my final post, I will “not” be taking any questions, and since the irrefutable proof I needed to guarantee investors has now vanished, I have nothing left to show or say other than good luck talking about, making the world a better place for “nothing but” people that do nothing useful, as they lie or steal from, or f--- over the few honest people that invest everything in their own unique ideas and hard work. Chris Arnold I would appreciate someone telling me how to exit this fine list so the emails will also stop. Ed, you are my hero - keep up the good work and power fusion is possible. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-779111593-1122816310=:76902 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    On Saturday 7/23/05 I was "finally" successful (after over a year of trying) to convert my synthetic diamond powder into a solid pellet that would prove the phase shift from powder to solid diamond would occur at pressures far less than required for sintering diamond powders into polycrystalline diamond or single crystals.

     

    The only problem is upon phase shift into a solid diamond, the material bonded to the inside wall of the custom High Pressure High Temperature (HTHP) chamber and I now needed to hire an EDM shop to cut out and return a one-piece cylinder containing the diamond and pressure pistons inside - so investor meetings could finally be held to finally show the proof that waited within the chamber. The pressure pistons would not budge a micron with over 2 Million PSI applied to them to push them thru - proving something solid and immovable was within.

     

    A local EDM shop was referred by an EDM manufacturer and very specific and detailed instructions were given for cutting around the diamond. Under no circumstances was the diamond or pressure pistons to be touched by the plasma, as I would cut it out of its enclosure myself. The first thing he did was cut out the diamond and stole it, now the local police are involved and the FBI has been contacted. Without that immovable pellet – over six years of seeking funding is over, and I cannot afford to buy another HTHP chamber or wait the 3 months for it to arrive. On top of that someone else has my prototype diamond, made from my unique diamond powder and I can’t begin to start the patent on it until I “see” it and test it. I refinanced my house four months ago because nobody in the industry would believe me except Novatech Diamond, and they only wanted a minimum of $5000 to press my material into wafers or $2 Million for a diamond press - so I did it myself with my own money – and now some asshole has shattered almost 7 years worth of progress and personal investments in a single criminal act.

     

    This is my final post, I will “not” be taking any questions, and since the irrefutable proof I needed to guarantee investors has now vanished, I have nothing left to show or say other than good luck talking about, making the world a better place for “nothing but” people that do nothing useful, as they lie or steal from, or f--- over the few honest people that invest everything in their own unique ideas and hard work.

     

    Chris Arnold

    I would appreciate someone telling me how to exit this fine list so the emails will also stop. Ed, you are my hero - keep up the good work and power fusion is possible.

    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail.yahoo.com --0-779111593-1122816310=:76902-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 07:22:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VELdS4016640; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:21:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VELcuE016616; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:21:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:21:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42ECDEB2.1040706 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:22:42 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA8E63.3060902@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729163955.0448eeb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729183824.04485070@pop.mindspring.com> <42EAE869.1040206@iinet.net.au> <42EBAD15.90207@ix.netcom.com> <42EC49E0.8090404@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <42EC49E0.8090404 iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Well said Ed. > I come from a church background so I guess I see human short sightedness > and stupidity as normal and unsurprising. I was taught the Christian philosophy also, Wesley. However, I was also taught that mankind, although imperfect, was given the task of striving for perfection, i.e. Godliness. The conflict comes in defining what Godliness is, a rather ironic difficulty. Christian theology teaches > that this is a broken world on the wrong path. I take this as an observation rather than as a requirement. Religion seems to mix observation and requirement in strange ways, depending on how the particular religion wants us to behave. For example, I can observe that life begins at conception without making this a requirement for decisions. The two concepts have no logical connection even though some people try to create one. I'm making efforts to > reach some influential people in the church net works I'm in so they > don't take the wrong side of things when cold fusion 'pops out of the > box' and surprises millions. Great idea. With each of us doing what we can, perhaps the sum of our efforts might make a difference. Ed > > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> >> >> Wesley Bruce wrote: >> >>> Jed and Ed interesting string. I happen to have a degree that >>> includes both the economics and environmental subjects your covering. >>> I've learned a few interesting things over the years. >>> >>> * Very few technological and environmental disasters have occurred >>> that were not predicted and thus preventable. I can't think of >>> one. Even Enron's fraud and collapse was predicted by people >>> (Austrian economists) that guessed early on that they were (had to >>> be) fraudulent. The original shuttle design had an escape pod >>> bridge with extra heat shielding but it added several tons. It was >>> dropped from the design so she could carry more tons of cargo. >> >> >> >> I have come to the same conclusion, Wesley. However, the resulting >> disasters are having increasingly greater global consequences. No >> longer are only the stupid or willful who make the mistakes paying the >> price. Because nothing can be done to stop the process, it does not >> take much foresight to predict exactly what will happen to >> civilization in the future. Many science fiction writers have already >> explored this subject and the future does not look good. >> >> >>> * Convenience beats commonsense every time so our solutions must be >>> convenient. The inconvenient solution such as recycling everything >>> is beaten by the convenience of a single rubbish bin. >> >> >> >> I suggest this depends on how valuable the rubbish is. In many poor >> countries, people make a living separating rubbish after it has been >> dumped in a single "bin". This combines convenience with commonsense, >> as long as you are not the separator. Even in rich countries, scrap >> steel is separated because it is sufficiently valuable. >> >>> * Technological solutions don't come when the greens, the lobbyists >>> or even the public clamor for them or when the investor invents >>> them. It comes when the society is willing to invest and pay for >>> them. We are on that threshold with oil at $50 a barrel. This >>> actually means they seem to come late from the greens and the >>> Lobbyists point of view. Frustratingly late from the inventor's >>> point of view but its perfectly on time from the point of view of >>> the market. Governments don't seem to have had an influence even >>> in a time of war; even they have to pay the going rate eventually >>> either in favors (which cost them dearly later) or cash. >> >> >> >> While the solution may be realized when needed, implementing the >> solution takes time. Everyone now knows that generating energy from >> nonorganic sources is practical and necessary. However, to make the >> change will take years while many bad consequences will continue to >> accumulate. A leader is supposed to have the ability to think ahead >> and anticipate problems and solutions that are unknown to the ordinary >> person. Instead we get leaders who see a problem only after it is >> obvious to a moron, or is this perhaps a mild exaggeration? >> >>> * If there's land to migrate into or conquer its economicly viable >>> to run an ecosystem down to desert to build up the resorces to >>> launch the campain. The desert makers of history are not short >>> sighted they often had their sights set on someone elses land. >> >> >> >> I suppose this has occurred in the past. However, what is the present >> excuse? In spite of being rather bitter and cynical, I nevertheless >> would like to see a rational debate and acknowledgment of the serious >> problems that we all are facing. Hopefully, my comments can generate >> some discussion on Vortex. After all, the usual discussion of the >> various scientific theories will have little importance if these >> social and economic problems are not solved. >> >> Regards, >> Ed > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 08:37:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VFb6lu017585; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:37:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VFb5Rv017567; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:37:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:37:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42ECF015.3080002 iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:36:53 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are things really getting too complicated? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728103259.044703d0 pop.mindspring.com> <42E90679.6030803@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728123747.04479eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <42E96091.9060306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729094612.044842b0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA6D44.7080108@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729140045.044897d0@pop.mindspring.com> <42EA8E63.3060902@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729163955.0448eeb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050729183824.04485070@pop.mindspring.com> <42EAE869.1040206@iinet.net.au> <42EBAD15.90207@ix.netcom.com> <42EC49E0.8090404@iinet.net.au> <42ECDEB2.1040706@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <42ECDEB2.1040706 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1Cl-M.A.WSE.gAP7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good points Ed. You may be interested that we have a solution to the 'life begins at conception' and the fight over its consequences. Its off subject for Vortex but I'm a right to life advocate that advocates live embryo transplantation and bionic Wombs. Together these would end the abortion debate with most people left happy. If I make any money out of what I know about LENR, which is more that all the professors in town, I'll invest a little in sorting out the Abortion problem. Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> Well said Ed. >> I come from a church background so I guess I see human short >> sightedness and stupidity as normal and unsurprising. > > > I was taught the Christian philosophy also, Wesley. However, I was > also taught that mankind, although imperfect, was given the task of > striving for perfection, i.e. Godliness. The conflict comes in > defining what Godliness is, a rather ironic difficulty. > > Christian theology teaches > >> that this is a broken world on the wrong path. > > > I take this as an observation rather than as a requirement. Religion > seems to mix observation and requirement in strange ways, depending on > how the particular religion wants us to behave. For example, I can > observe that life begins at conception without making this a > requirement for decisions. The two concepts have no logical connection > even though some people try to create one. > > I'm making efforts to > >> reach some influential people in the church net works I'm in so they >> don't take the wrong side of things when cold fusion 'pops out of the >> box' and surprises millions. > > > Great idea. With each of us doing what we can, perhaps the sum of our > efforts might make a difference. > > Ed > >> >> Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Wesley Bruce wrote: >>> >>>> Jed and Ed interesting string. I happen to have a degree that >>>> includes both the economics and environmental subjects your covering. >>>> I've learned a few interesting things over the years. >>>> >>>> * Very few technological and environmental disasters have occurred >>>> that were not predicted and thus preventable. I can't think of >>>> one. Even Enron's fraud and collapse was predicted by people >>>> (Austrian economists) that guessed early on that they were >>>> (had to >>>> be) fraudulent. The original shuttle design had an escape pod >>>> bridge with extra heat shielding but it added several tons. It >>>> was >>>> dropped from the design so she could carry more tons of cargo. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have come to the same conclusion, Wesley. However, the resulting >>> disasters are having increasingly greater global consequences. No >>> longer are only the stupid or willful who make the mistakes paying >>> the price. Because nothing can be done to stop the process, it does >>> not take much foresight to predict exactly what will happen to >>> civilization in the future. Many science fiction writers have >>> already explored this subject and the future does not look good. >>> >>> >>>> * Convenience beats commonsense every time so our solutions must be >>>> convenient. The inconvenient solution such as recycling >>>> everything >>>> is beaten by the convenience of a single rubbish bin. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I suggest this depends on how valuable the rubbish is. In many poor >>> countries, people make a living separating rubbish after it has been >>> dumped in a single "bin". This combines convenience with >>> commonsense, as long as you are not the separator. Even in rich >>> countries, scrap steel is separated because it is sufficiently >>> valuable. >>> >>>> * Technological solutions don't come when the greens, the lobbyists >>>> or even the public clamor for them or when the investor invents >>>> them. It comes when the society is willing to invest and pay for >>>> them. We are on that threshold with oil at $50 a barrel. This >>>> actually means they seem to come late from the greens and the >>>> Lobbyists point of view. Frustratingly late from the inventor's >>>> point of view but its perfectly on time from the point of view of >>>> the market. Governments don't seem to have had an influence even >>>> in a time of war; even they have to pay the going rate eventually >>>> either in favors (which cost them dearly later) or cash. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> While the solution may be realized when needed, implementing the >>> solution takes time. Everyone now knows that generating energy from >>> nonorganic sources is practical and necessary. However, to make the >>> change will take years while many bad consequences will continue to >>> accumulate. A leader is supposed to have the ability to think ahead >>> and anticipate problems and solutions that are unknown to the >>> ordinary person. Instead we get leaders who see a problem only after >>> it is obvious to a moron, or is this perhaps a mild exaggeration? >>> >>>> * If there's land to migrate into or conquer its economicly viable >>>> to run an ecosystem down to desert to build up the resorces to >>>> launch the campain. The desert makers of history are not short >>>> sighted they often had their sights set on someone elses land. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I suppose this has occurred in the past. However, what is the >>> present excuse? In spite of being rather bitter and cynical, I >>> nevertheless would like to see a rational debate and acknowledgment >>> of the serious problems that we all are facing. Hopefully, my >>> comments can generate some discussion on Vortex. After all, the >>> usual discussion of the various scientific theories will have little >>> importance if these social and economic problems are not solved. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ed >> >> >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 09:16:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VGFX6L003753; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:15:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VGFVIW003727; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:15:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:15:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [65.54.175.208] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <42ECDEB2.1040706 ix.netcom.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Science, Politics and Economics Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:15:08 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2005 16:15:08.0968 (UTC) FILETIME=[055BC280:01C595EB] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, vo, Back in the late 1960s I had the good fortune to work as a consultant in the late Senator Robert F. Kennedy's N.Y. office. The experience illuminated the fact that while there are some true public servants in government employ, they are far outnumbered. One of the best, a senior official who became a good friend, once surprised me, when I mentioned the then current notion that "Small is Beautiful", by pointing out that large private business was urgently required, to offset the inevitable abuse anf failings within the Federal government. The many contacts I have had with officials in government agencies including the national labs, have convinced me he was, sadly, correct. LENR, Hydrinos, and ZPE, et al, are all examples of technologies that urgently need support, especially in light of the article entitled "Ticking Time Bomb", that appeared in the Baltimore Sun last December i5th. If Jones Beene is correct, and John Atcheson, the geologist who wrote the article agrees with him, worst case we have 15 to 25 years before mammalian life in the arctic begins being snuffed out by methane clouds. These will then move south threatening all human life on earth. Natural gas supply, according to Matthew Simmons, and Atcheson agrees, is likely to "fall off a cliff" in North America no later than 2007. Oil prices, Simmons states, will reach $100/barrel in about 5 months. With all its failings, the only hope is rapid private sector funding and development, This is slowly, much too slowly, beginning to occur. Perhaps it will speed up considerably over the next year or so as the latter two events begin to penetrate the sad state of media coverage of these monumental problems. If a working example of promising new energy technology can reach the market sometime next year, it may bring attention to all of these issues. That is my personal goal. I have no illusions regarding the likelhood of a rapid change in public understanding and support, but it is not impossible. No more so than the technological breakthroughs that have occured thus far. As the CoEvolution Quarterly used to be titled: What is needed is "Difficult but Possible". Keep plugging, Mark From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 09:30:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VGTUK2011368; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:29:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VGTN7U011287; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:29:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:29:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Gs49FL3WAlR2Mpl080SIkOkmUClqQwjquftttGdwc+Bc74uMz9exAInQoECFZlca; Message-ID: <410-220057031152812610 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:28:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e86a250e8c22178726f952855253f45a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.254 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mark. I wrote: > > A single tube 4 foot - 40 watt fluorescent shop light with electronic ballast runs about $20.00 > at Lowes. > > These are probably operating between 40 to 60 KHz which allows plenty of time for > the atoms/molecules to collide at the estimated 1,000 meter/sec Argon (6.64E-26 kg) and 500 meter/sec > Mercury (3.32E-25 kg) velocities (based on a 3000 K gas temperature). > > According to this collision calculator for Argon-Mercury or H2 (3.32E-27 kg) -Argon etc. > the Argon atom can gain a 50% increase in velocity from an elastic collision with > a Mercury atom rebounding from a wall collision at - 500 meter/second. > If I didn't goof this would mean a 50% OU "kinetic energy" gain? > Ha. After some number crunching, it finally soaked in. What the heavy atom/molecule loses in kinetic energy or momentum the smaller atom/molecule gains. If there is any OU energy it has to come from some sort of collision that initiates energy release as in Mills' "Fractional Orbit" Hydrino and/or the MAHG, or other OU phenomena. If Imris' circuit was actually getting OU from a 5000 torr Xenon gas discharge, it would be a real eye-opener. > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/colsta.html#c4 > > Not much advantage in going to Hydrogen-Mercury (3000 K H2 v = 5000 meter/sec) but > this doesn't square with the Double Ball Drop thing: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html > " If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball like a large superball, > the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high velocity, theoretically approaching > three times the velocity with which the balls strike the surface. > > The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic collisions and > in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits > used in space exploration have features in common with this situation even > though the objects involved never touch each other." > Planets don't lose much kinetic energy/momenum in the "Slingshot" spacecraft interaction. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

    Mark.
     
    I wrote:
    >
    > A single tube 4 foot - 40 watt fluorescent  shop light  with electronic ballast runs about $20.00
    > at Lowes.
    >
    > These are probably operating between 40 to 60 KHz which allows plenty of time for
    > the atoms/molecules to collide at the estimated 1,000 meter/sec Argon (6.64E-26 kg) and 500 meter/sec
    > Mercury  (3.32E-25 kg) velocities (based on a 3000 K gas temperature).
    >
    > According to this collision calculator for Argon-Mercury or H2 (3.32E-27 kg) -Argon etc.
    > the Argon atom can gain a 50% increase in velocity from an elastic collision with
    > a Mercury atom rebounding from a wall collision at   - 500 meter/second.
    > If I didn't goof this would mean a 50% OU "kinetic energy" gain?
    >
    Ha. After some number crunching, it finally soaked in. What the heavy atom/molecule loses
    in kinetic energy or momentum the smaller atom/molecule gains. 
     
    If there is any OU energy it has to come from some sort of collision that initiates energy release
    as in Mills' "Fractional Orbit" Hydrino and/or the MAHG, or other OU phenomena.
     
    If Imris' circuit was actually getting OU from a 5000 torr Xenon gas discharge, it would
    be a real eye-opener.
    >
    >
    > Not much advantage in going to Hydrogen-Mercury (3000 K H2  v = 5000 meter/sec) but
    > this doesn't square with the Double Ball Drop thing:
    >
     
     
    > " If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball like a large superball,
    > the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high velocity, theoretically approaching
    > three times the velocity with which the balls strike the surface.
    >
    > The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic collisions and
    > in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits
    > used in space exploration have features in common with this situation even
    > though the objects involved never touch each other."
    >
    Planets don't lose much kinetic energy/momenum in the "Slingshot" spacecraft interaction.
     
    Frederick
     
     
     

     ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 10:34:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VHWl7R008451; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:33:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VHWj5W008395; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:32:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:32:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <84204420-82cb-4911-84e3-184358f28a2d> Message-ID: <008401c595f5$caf558d0$e75bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <001501c5957d$dc0653e0$f7027841 xptower> Subject: uoting from the Re: Ed's Stroms hope Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:24:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Blank ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay Subject: Re: Ed's Stroms hope Mike Carrell >Guess what, guys, recycling is a complex, nasty problem, not easily solved, as difficult as anything else in society, and screaming at the government isn't going to fix it. Like many things, market necessity is the driver and things happen when it hurts enough. Yes, the government can help with studies and subsidies and rules. But when the rubber hits the road, its technology, a technology whose messiness is only appreciated when you get serious about it. >For starters, it is like unscrambling eggs. Mike, all so true. Brooklyn solved the problem by railcar to wesr Texas landfills.err.. if that is considered a solution. MacDonald's will solve the problem with disposable styrofoam containers when the price of plastic reachs their null point. MC: Acutally styrofoam cups and disposable diapers make good press but they are not *the problem*; contractor waste is more. Years ago, a university in the SW made a real study of garbage, treating landfills as archaeological digs. Results were surprising. Most landfills mummify the contents; the conditions for biological decay are fairly narrow. They found readable newspapers from the '40s as well as hot dogs which were not decayed but nobody tried to eat them. There is a book called "Garbage" [I think] which makes instructive reading. Meanwhile back at the ranch here in Texas, we have 60,000 acres of strip mine staring us in the face. Anyone have any ideas what to do with it. Talk about messy !! its like an open sore.There ain't much use for it. MC: There are various projects seeking to stabilize the ground to prevent erosion and leaching of toxic wastes. I helped a bit with a proposal for using fly ash [an aluminosilicate byproduct of coal burning] treated with a strong caustic solution to create a pseudo-zeolite with structural strength and great ability to absorb and sequester toxic wastes. the stuff is far better than portland cement and cheap, but nobody has taken off with it yet. My thoughts on recycling is based on the existing infrastucture " on the ground". The technology for recycling exists.. albeit in bits and pieces in small scale enterprises.. but it exists. So much of what we face as daunting tasks become feasible when applying the magic of reasoned thought and purpose. MC: Purpose is the key, lots of people have tried, but on the output end their has to be a market large enough to pay the people who do the processing. Many industrial processes a re geared to well defined input materials, and cheaply processed wastes is not it. The thought I had in suggesting recycling on a grand scale was to give feet to Ed's suggestion by way of example. My underlying purpose is to demonstrate the Vortex group has " moxie" we are underutilizing. CF studies are needed. Studies cost money and require teamwork. Teamwork requires co-operation. Co- operation requires university participation. Looking at the formidable task ahead is like planning a marketing program. The person that said " build a better mousetrap and people will come knocking on your door" failed to grasp the fundamentals of the game. The reality is " show me somebody that can sell mousetraps and I can build all you can sell". CF research must be sold as an existing product.sell the " sizzle" and not the steak. What is the sizzle in CF? It is NOT the energy it produces, it is the convenience and usefulness it affords The safety and cleanliness. The recycling ability and the abundance. It must be sold as a prduct and not as an objection to hot fusion. That is the concept that must be sold as sizzle. How to ? you ask ? Credibility in science. Credibility is " earned" by performance. Performance in CF cannot be achieved without having CF " in the fist".. unless.. the salemen for CF research can demonstrate " bona-fieds" . One such way is to present a series of thought provoking ideas that are credible. The instant acceptance the group exhibited to the idea for " recycling" demonstrates an abiity of Vortex to use imagination. Credible ideas can overcome resistance of the leadership cadre at the university and government funding levels by demostrating credibility in other fields of technology and need. Water, air,food, energy, healthcare, recycling.. the basics. Selling requires a marketing plan, a basic strategy.. similar to war. The object being to conquer. For Vortexians, anyone have any ideas for how to sell mousetraps? MC: Jed Rothwell has been beating this drum for years, lamenting that as each year passes without measurable progress thousands suffer and die in Africa and other developing countries. And he is right, so far. Jed wrote a book and posted it for download on lenr-canr website, portraying a rosy future CF world. He hopes to ignite a popular demand for this. MC: Recycling as a civic virtue has entered the public mind through years and years of articles and townships with buckets at the curb. When I was a boy, during WW2, we collected coat hangers and newspaper for recycling. The simple, brutal fact with respect to CF is that there is no visible device which is ready for prime time [scale-up, packaging, promotion, etc.]. I say visible because there may be developments which are **not** being discussed because there is no patent protection to compensate investors in commercial enterprises. CF in principle could provide the energy to reduce manufactured objects to concentrated, pure elements. CF could supply the energy necessary to support all the collection programs, local and national. All this, without adding to global warming or pollution. But not yet. There is no sure path forward yet visible. MC: I repeat. BlackLight Power is making all the noises and signals of an enterprise getting ready to get out of the egg stage. Quoting from the website: --------------- ...The net energy released may be over one hundred times that of combustion [of hydrogen] with power densities like those of fossil fuel combustion and nuclear power plants. Thus, the catalysis of atomic hydrogen, the BlackLight Process, represents a potential new source of energy. The hydrogen fuel is obtained by diverting a fraction of the output energy of the process to power the electrolysis of water into its elemental constituents. With water as the fuel, the operational cost of BlackLight Power generators will be very inexpensive. Moreover, rather than air pollutants or radioactive waste, novel hydride compounds with potential commercial applications are the by-products. The BlackLight Process offers a prospectively efficient, clean, cheap, and versatile thermal energy source. Two of the potential applications of its technology are in the heating and electric power production. Heat generating prototypes have indicated the BlackLight Process to be competitive with existing primary generation sources over a range of scales from microdistributed to central power generation. They have better performance characteristics than proton-exchange-membrane (PEM) fuel cells without the restrictive capital costs that arise from the requirement of hydrocarbons with the associated infrastructure and hydrocarbon-to-electricity conversion systems. .....BlackLight also continues actively to advance development of new, related technologies which it also intends to license. BlackLight occupies a 50,000 square foot modern research and development facility equipped with over ten million dollars worth of laboratory equipment. Our technical core competencies are theoretical physics, characterization of plasma processes, chemical and material characterization, and thermal power measurement. In addition to its Cranbury facility, BlackLight has collaborating labs in Asia, Europe and elsewhere in the US..... .......BlackLight Power’s commercialization strategy is to nonexclusively license joint-venture companies (JVS) to develop, make, use, or sell its patented and patent-pending technology in any field any where in the world. These independent JVCs will invest the capital and time to develop commercial applications of the BlackLight Process. New patented technologies resulting from development of commercial products or processes by the JVC will be the property of the JVC. New patented technologies developed by BlackLight after the purchase of a license will be added to the original license. The license agreements will be offered for an annual maintenance fee and a minority equity position in the licensed, JVC. Companies with relevant capabilities or interest in developing new products or valuable new patented technology will require a license and are encouraged to contact us. ------------------ Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 15:43:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VMgAVg012220; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:42:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j6VMfvbv012082; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:41:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:41:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42ED5391.90500 sumosound.de> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:41:21 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling References: <20050730.124023.21367.196506 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> <004101c5954c$be4ce250$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42EC4E97.50902@iinet.net.au> <006601c595d2$c2100df0$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <006601c595d2$c2100df0$e75bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > Wesley, you are also correct and after I wrote my piece I remembered that at > least one auto manufacturer is producing cars that can easily be [partially] > disassembled for segregating into recycling programs. A steel engineer whose major client was an automobile manufacturer approached me about 10 years ago, asking if I knew of a way to remove gallium or arsenic from steel. His company was melting down crushed cars to recycle the steel, and said that those two materials in particular were becoming a problem. Apparently, the more modern cars had enough microchips in them that steel recyclers needed a solution to the problem to keep the quality of the recycled steel high enough for re-use in the automobile industry. I would suspect that a combination of using more modern chips, plus installing as many as possible together in a place that would facilitate their easy removal would solve that problem. This would require industrywide cooperation and standardization (yikes!), but if they haven't done it already, I would think that they would be intelligent enough to see the economical advantages. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 19:38:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j712bWxO019034; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:37:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j712bQ9G018992; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:37:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:37:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01c59641$b2981880$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Found of Greenpeace Think Cold Fusion Isn't Real Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:35:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C59620.2B18C290" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <_YxmBB.A.soE.lrY7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C59620.2B18C290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I came across an article in which one of the founders of Greenpeace (now = estranged from the organization) is asked if he thinks Cold Fusion might = solve our energy problems, and he responded that it is not real. Seems = to be the common way of thinking amongst the general public regarding = Cold Fusion. Too bad Cold Fusion hasn't found more allies in the = environmental movement, as Cold Fusion energy implemented on a grand = scale would be the single biggest improvement to our environment since = the founding of the environmental movement. Q: Do you anticipate an alternative to nuclear energy and fossil fuels = in the next century, something like cold fusion, that would provide an = endless supply of clean energy? A: Not I don't. They've been working on hot fusion and I guess there's = some possibility of a breakthrough. Cold fusion just is not real. I've = always said we need a combination of renewables, like solar and wind, = with nuclear and fossil fuels. In renewables, I include geothermal, not = just volcanic geothermal, but ground-source heat pumps, which can heat, = cool and make hot water for a building using energy in the earth. = Everyone is so fixated on solar panels, which are still too expensive, = when the answer is in their back yard. Wind also has at least as much = potential as hydro. But I don't count on a cheap, unlimited source of = power in the future. http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=3D14953826&BRD=3D2185&PAG=3D461= &dept_id=3D415891&rfi=3D6 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C59620.2B18C290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I came across an article in which one of the founders of Greenpeace = (now=20 estranged from the organization) is asked if he thinks Cold Fusion might = solve=20 our energy problems, and he responded that it is not real.  Seems = to be the=20 common way of thinking amongst the general public regarding Cold = Fusion. =20 Too bad Cold Fusion hasn't found more allies in the environmental = movement, as=20 Cold Fusion energy implemented on a grand scale would be the single = biggest=20 improvement to our environment since the founding of the environmental=20 movement.
     
    Q: Do you anticipate an alternative to nuclear energy and fossil = fuels in=20 the next century, something like cold fusion, that would provide an = endless=20 supply of clean energy?

    A: Not I don=92t. They=92ve been working = on hot=20 fusion and I guess there=92s some possibility of a breakthrough. Cold = fusion just=20 is not real. I=92ve always said we need a combination of renewables, = like solar=20 and wind, with nuclear and fossil fuels. In renewables, I include = geothermal,=20 not just volcanic geothermal, but ground-source heat pumps, which can = heat, cool=20 and make hot water for a building using energy in the earth. Everyone is = so=20 fixated on solar panels, which are still too expensive, when the answer = is in=20 their back yard. Wind also has at least as much potential as hydro. But = I don=92t=20 count on a cheap, unlimited source of power in the future.
     
    http://www.zwire.com/s= ite/news.cfm?newsid=3D14953826&BRD=3D2185&PAG=3D461&dept_id=3D= 415891&rfi=3D6
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C59620.2B18C290-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 20:28:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j713RfNN018689; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:27:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j713RerT018662; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:27:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:27:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003b01c59648$eb6bf620$39027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Found on Greenpeace think... Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:27:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5961F.0218A7D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <4zTPzB.A.ijE.raZ7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5961F.0218A7D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0038_01C5961F.0218A7D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C5961F.0218A7D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Coviello passed this on..quoting a ex-member of Greenpeace. " But I don=92t count on a cheap, unlimited source of power in the = future." Richard writes. So much for Greenpeace and " sensationalism" personified. These people = had the public behind them and then lost it.=20 How did it happen? Study and learn from their mistakes. CF must have a = marketing plan that focuses on credibility and best available technology = making constant effort toward sustaining legitimate research. Hot fusion gets all the research dollars and the glory. CF gets painted = with the " fringe" word. The public and the politician are = "fickle" and at anytime the winds of change can happen where CF becomes = "in" and 'hot" goes out. Times change and should the change come soon.. = are the CF researchers " ready" for the task represented by budgets in = the billions ? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C5961F.0218A7D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
    John Coviello passed this on..quoting a ex-member of = Greenpeace.

    " But I don=92t count on a cheap, unlimited source of power in = the=20 future."

    Richard writes.

    So much for Greenpeace and " sensationalism" personified. These = people had=20 the public behind them and then lost it.

    How did it happen? Study and learn from their mistakes. CF must have = a=20 marketing plan that focuses on credibility and best available technology = making=20 constant effort toward sustaining legitimate research.

    Hot fusion gets all the research dollars and the glory. CF gets = painted with=20 the " fringe" word.  The public and the politician=20 are      "fickle" and  at anytime the = winds of=20 change can happen where CF becomes "in" and 'hot" goes out. Times change = and=20 should the change come soon.. are the CF researchers " ready" for the = task=20 represented by budgets in the billions ?

    Richard

    ------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C5961F.0218A7D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5961F.0218A7D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003601c59648$eaed2930$39027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5961F.0218A7D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 23:21:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j716KgAQ004116; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:20:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j716KeoM004092; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:20:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:20:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050731231412.02802730 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:17:10 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: need help with "transcription" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_554015859==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <-nFSAD.A.4_.38b7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_554015859==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm looking for a volunteer, or an inexpensive helper to type about 10 pages into a word processing document. The pages look like this: http://newenergytimes.com/garwin3.htm Reply OFF-LIST please: steven newenergytimes.com Steven B. Krivit Editor NEW ENERGY TIMES Your best source for cold fusion news and information. 11664 National Blvd. Suite 142 Los Angeles, California, USA 90064 www.newenergytimes.com Cell phone: (310) 721-5919 Office Phone: (310) 470-8189 Fax: (432) 577-3630 --=====================_554015859==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I'm looking for a volunteer, or an inexpensive helper to type about 10 pages into a word processing document.
    The pages look like this: http://newenergytimes.com/garwin3.htm

    Reply OFF-LIST please: steven newenergytimes.com

    Steven B. Krivit
    Editor
    NEW ENERGY TIMES
    Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

    11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
    Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
    www.newenergytimes.com
    Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
    Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
    Fax: (432) 577-3630
    --=====================_554015859==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jul 31 23:46:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j716jexx016436; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:45:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j716jbiN016397; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:45:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:45:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050731233739.028092d8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:43:29 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Found on Greenpeace think... In-Reply-To: <003b01c59648$eb6bf620$39027841 xptower> References: <003b01c59648$eb6bf620$39027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >CF must have a marketing plan that focuses on credibility and best available technology making constant effort toward sustaining legitimate research. >Hot fusion gets all the research dollars and the glory. CF gets painted >with the " fringe" word. The public and the politician are "fickle" >and at anytime the winds of change can happen where CF becomes "in" and >'hot" goes out. Times change and should the change come soon.. are the CF >researchers " ready" for the task represented by budgets in the billions ? > >Richard "CF" won't have a plan. The CF community has no organization to it. There are "cliques" in each country. Some of the players in these groups will have ... and most likely already have a plan. The rest will be part of.... a great big stampede. Some will be winners; others, losers, posers and wannabees. Sorting them out will be quite a task. s