From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 02:30:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j719TXgc025985; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 02:29:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j719TVG7025966; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 02:29:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 02:29:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EDEB71.9010306 iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:29:21 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: uoting from the Re: Ed's Stroms hope References: <001501c5957d$dc0653e0$f7027841 xptower> <008401c595f5$caf558d0$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <008401c595f5$caf558d0$e75bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's the cheapest way to sequest a ton of carbon? Bury 1.5 tons of waste plastic! It'll be there for centuries. Mike Carrell wrote: >Blank >----- Original Message ----- >From: RC Macaulay >Subject: Re: Ed's Stroms hope > > >Mike Carrell > > >>Guess what, guys, recycling is a complex, nasty problem, not easily solved, >> >> >as difficult as anything else in society, and screaming at the government >isn't going to fix it. Like many things, market necessity is the driver and >things happen when it hurts enough. Yes, the government can help with >studies and subsidies and rules. But when the rubber hits the road, its >technology, a technology whose messiness is only appreciated when you get >serious about it. > > > >>For starters, it is like unscrambling eggs. >> >> > > > > > >Meanwhile back at the ranch here in Texas, we have 60,000 acres of strip >mine staring us in the face. Anyone have any ideas what to do with it. Talk >about messy !! its like an open sore.There ain't much use for it. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 04:14:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71BE4Ni011085; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:14:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71BE2Kj011069; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:14:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=fW1171AYiW7XUQs244uLx+LcaAMXQl4V1+qrIWxNIl5xytalvXXeyCkQGYTHtNyq; Message-ID: <410-2200581110136380 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:13:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94031f2d8d2c6ddf5fc0e4fcb7b610db4ad350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.197 Resent-Message-ID: <48j-sC.A.1sC.6Pg7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I wrote: > > A single tube 4 foot - 40 watt fluorescent shop light with electronic ballast runs about $20.00 > at Lowes. > > > If there is any OU energy it has to come from some sort of collision that initiates energy release > as in Mills' "Fractional Orbit" Hydrino and/or the MAHG, or other OU phenomena. > " The fluorescent lamp is a low-pressure gas discharge lamp that requires three basic elements to produce visible light: (1) electrodes, (2) gases, and (3) solid phosphor(s), which coat the lamp tube. It contains a highly purified noble gas (usually a few torr of argon) and a small amount of mercury (about 50 mg), which vaporizes during lamp operation." " Modern fluorescent lamps use blends of red-, green- and blue-emitting phosphors to achieve a “white” output and are called “triphosphor” lamps. These phosphors are generally complex stoichiometric metal oxides that emit light in a narrow region of the visible spectrum. For example, a cool white fluorescent-lamp phosphor blend may use Y2O3:Eu3+ for the red emission, BaMg2Al16O27Eu2+ for the blue, and Ce0.67Tb0.33MgAl11O19 for the green [9]. The precise color output of the phosphor depends not only upon the energy separation of the rare earth ions’ valence levels (particularly the 5d and 4f levels) but on the nature of the host lattice as well." I've been told that some manufacturers add a small amount of Hydrogen too. If not, the 185 and 254 nm UV that gets through the phosphor and glass can dissociate water vapor condensed on the bulb surface into H and O , thus allowing the H to diffuse into the lower pressure tube. Are fluorescent lamps intrinsically Hydrino-Hydrino Hydride synthesizers? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I wrote:
>
> A single tube 4 foot - 40 watt fluorescent  shop light  with electronic ballast runs about $20.00
> at Lowes.
>
>
> If there is any OU energy it has to come from some sort of collision that initiates energy release
> as in Mills' "Fractional Orbit" Hydrino and/or the MAHG, or other OU phenomena.
>
" The fluorescent lamp is a low-pressure gas discharge lamp that requires three basic elements to produce visible light: (1) electrodes, (2) gases, and (3) solid phosphor(s), which coat the lamp tube. It contains a highly purified noble gas (usually a few torr of argon) and a small amount of mercury (about 50 mg), which vaporizes during lamp operation."
 
" Modern fluorescent lamps use blends of red-, green- and blue-emitting phosphors to achieve a “white” output and are called “triphosphor” lamps. These phosphors are generally complex stoichiometric metal oxides that emit light in a narrow region of the visible spectrum. For example, a cool white fluorescent-lamp phosphor blend may use Y2O3:Eu3+ for the red emission, BaMg2Al16O27Eu2+ for the blue, and Ce0.67Tb0.33MgAl11O19 for the green [9]. The precise color output of the phosphor depends not only upon the energy separation of the rare earth ions’ valence levels (particularly the 5d and 4f levels) but on the nature of the host lattice as well."
I've been told that some manufacturers add a small amount of Hydrogen too.
 
If not, the 185 and 254 nm UV that gets through the phosphor and glass can dissociate water vapor
condensed on the bulb surface into H and O , thus allowing the H to diffuse into the lower pressure
tube.
Are fluorescent lamps intrinsically Hydrino-Hydrino Hydride synthesizers?
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 06:09:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71D8kcP004633; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 06:09:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71D8iQ3004583; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 06:08:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 06:08:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00cf01c5969a$16a8ac10$e75bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050730.124023.21367.196506 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> <004101c5954c$be4ce250$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42EC4E97.50902@iinet.net.au> <006601c595d2$c2100df0$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42ED5391.90500@sumosound.de> Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:51:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <80XRXB.A.hHB.a7h7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Michael Huffman" Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > Wesley, you are also correct and after I wrote my piece I remembered that at > > least one auto manufacturer is producing cars that can easily be [partially] > > disassembled for segregating into recycling programs. > > A steel engineer whose major client was an automobile manufacturer > approached me about 10 years ago, asking if I knew of a way to remove > gallium or arsenic from steel. His company was melting down crushed > cars to recycle the steel, and said that those two materials in > particular were becoming a problem. Apparently, the more modern cars > had enough microchips in them that steel recyclers needed a solution to > the problem to keep the quality of the recycled steel high enough for > re-use in the automobile industry. > > I would suspect that a combination of using more modern chips, plus > installing as many as possible together in a place that would facilitate > their easy removal would solve that problem. This would require > industrywide cooperation and standardization (yikes!), but if they > haven't done it already, I would think that they would be intelligent > enough to see the economical advantages. > > Knuke -------------------------------- Most interesting and another illustration of my point that recycling is not simple at all when you take it seriously. I am surprised that the amount of gallium or arsenic from microchips could possibly alter the metallurgical qualities of steel enough to disqualify it for re-use. Ths principal constiuent of a microship is hyper-pure silicon to which trace amounts of dopants which may include arsenic and gallium are added to produce the transistor effects. These amounts are so small that ordinary chemical analysis of a microchip will report it as pure silicon. An automotive engine compartment is an extremely hars environment for electronics -- hot and electrically noisy -- and it was some time before components were developed that could operate in that environment. Gallium and aresnic might be in other electronic components, or other components of a car. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 07:37:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71EbCwo019440; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 07:37:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71EbA3f019415; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 07:37:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 07:37:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c596a6$6e56b180$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001501c5957d$dc0653e0$f7027841 xptower> <008401c595f5$caf558d0$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42EDEB71.9010306@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: uoting from the Re: Ed's Stroms hope Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 07:36:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Bruce" > What's the cheapest way to sequest a ton of carbon? Bury 1.5 > tons of waste plastic! It'll be there for centuries. Or toss a few ounces of rust into the ocean.... I suspect that stip mine in Texas has enough surface minerals to sink more carbon than it generated... 'fonly.... At least that was the prevalent eco-thinking twenty years ago." "Ocean Iron Fertilization" ... a grand concept but we still do not know if it is a viable way to remove Atmospheric CO2. But if not, there are other ways. http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/cat_engineering_environmental.html Some scientists are questioning the viability of ocean iron seeding as a means to sequester carbon from atmospheric carbon dioxide. The idea can be traced back to a Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution meeting in 1985, when John Martin, then director of the Moss Landing Marine Laboratory, boasted: "Give me half a tanker of iron and I'll give you an ice age." Martin's general hypothesis that iron seeding would create a photosynthetic bloom proved correct, although the idea has turned out to be far less economical than he expected. The breakeven point for sequestration programs is $10 per ton of carbon dioxide; models based on the iron-seeding experiments still put the cost at $100 or more. Many scientists involved in iron-seeding projects as well as those observing them from afar say that iron seeding for purposeful carbon sequestration just doesn't work. "In the beginning, the assumptions were that for every atom of iron, we could sink 500,000 atoms of carbon," says Ken Caldeira, an ocean carbon-cycle scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, who helped to create computer simulations. Those estimates have since been revised downwards by hundreds of orders of magnitude, he says. The latest Southern Ocean Iron Fertilization Experiment (SOFeX) provides good or bad news for the prospect of iron fertilization as a way to increase photosynthesis by marine plant organisms as a way to cheaply remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Some scientists still hold that it is the cheapest method to remove atmospheric carbon dioxide found to date. The jury is still out. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 08:03:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71F2EQa002732; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:02:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71F2Ad2002674; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:02:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:02:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VLD4Ix39Lv/mHu1ElRXnJaava4fV/mZwBHbIjfwRaMJ2sDf7tyucmn1wO0FfnES8zwE0IUSgQNXQA+QrIK/9xc2UR2TmEmcqn6M13LLVwbjxHZOTcKELq3UlxO025GVZWqyGcuY7MC+VeuY8go9hteA4xCVd0KGdv4ts7ETaqjA= ; Message-ID: <20050801145453.89275.qmail web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 07:54:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Comment by J. Barandes To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050729221327.02822100 mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <2Y6RI.A.kp.wlj7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has anyone considered the fact that by choosing to publish such an unprofessional reply by a GRAD STUDENT that perhaps The Crimson is actually showing covert support for CF by undermining the case against it? --- Steven Krivit wrote: > Jed, > > Oh, one more thing, > > Look who you are up against: a grad student. I went > up against one like him > from Columbia last year in a Wikipedia match. > Believe it or not, he may > actually be an innocent victim who's been spoon-fed > myths and > misinformation by his teachers. > > Want to see how this may be occurring? > > Look here for an example from Berkeley: > > http://newenergytimes.com/students/AcademicPerspective2004.htm > > It's no wonder our cold fusion friend and professor > at Berkeley needs to > keep off the record, lets he be labeled a heretic or > kook. > > s > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 08:11:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71FAekr010135; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:10:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71FAcD9010094; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:10:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:10:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050801110826.04491220 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:10:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Comment by J. Barandes In-Reply-To: <20050801145453.89275.qmail web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050729221327.02822100 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20050801145453.89275.qmail web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: >Has anyone considered the fact that by choosing to >publish such an unprofessional reply by a GRAD STUDENT >that perhaps The Crimson is actually showing covert >support for CF by undermining the case against it? That occurred to me, but I do not think the Crimson editors are that subtle, or politically savvy. Also I doubt that most readers would see anything wrong with Barandes' remarks. Even at Harvard, people are not well versed in logic or the rules of debate. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 08:43:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71FhFSf005250; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:43:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71FhA1e005159; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:43:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:43:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c596af$a2c30460$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <410-2200581110136380 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:42:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C59674.F42F23F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4PVOh.A.ZQB.LMk7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C59674.F42F23F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...overunity at Walmart? http://www.otherpower.com/cgi-bin/webbbs/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=3D= 12446 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C59674.F42F23F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
...overunity at Walmart?
 
http://www.otherpower.com/cgi-bin/webbbs/webbbs_config.pl= ?noframes;read=3D12446
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C59674.F42F23F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 08:51:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71Foulr013459; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:51:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71Foq00013417; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:50:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:50:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c596b0$bbfbd0a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-2200581110136380 earthlink.net> <002a01c596af$a2c30460$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:50:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is this what Fred is getting all "Stoked" up about? "When a phosphor or other luminescent substance emits light, it gives in most cases an emission according to Stokes' Law. This law states that the wavelength of the fluorescent (emitted) light is always greater than the wavelength of the exciting radiation. It was first observed in 1852 in the memoir "On the Change of Refrangibility of Light," by Sir G.G. Stokes. In terms of energy the relationship states that e em < e ab. While Stokes' Law holds for the majority of cases, it does not hold in certain instances. In some cases the wave length is the same for both the absorbed and the emitted radiation. That is, the efficiency appears to be perfect or unity. This is known as resonance radiation. In other cases Stokes' Law does not hold where the energy emitted is greater than the energy absorbed. This is known as Anti-Stokes emission. In 1935 Prileshajewa showed that there is an energy difference as much as 1.1 v between the exciting light and the fluorescence of aniline vapor. This added energy is attributed to additions from the internal energy of the molecule." However, when the active medium produces excess energy emission, and continues to do so, then the added energy cannot be attributed to additions from the internal energy of the molecule, unless the internal energy of the molecule is itself continually being replaced from -- you guessed it -- the vacuum's fierce interaction with the molecule's charges. Further, the dynamic dipoles comprising the molecule or the particle/liquid boundary, can produce double-surface E-fields of large magnitude, as is well-known in electrochemistry. Multipass retroreflection between TiO2 particles (Lawandy) or between palladium-clad, charged beads (Patterson) can collect and disperse (as scattered coherent photons) additional energy from the powerful S-flows of the double-surface Poynting generators. It follows that, by "doctoring" anti-Stokes radiation situations so as to allow multipass retroreflection and thus multicollection, a permissible overunity process emerges that is practical. It is also one which can be developed into commercial overunity and even self-energizing power sources. Excess emission from a medium has been known for a long time, but not much has been done with it until the work of Letokhov and the work and inventions of Lawandy. Nabil M. Lawandy, "Optical Gain Medium Having Doped Nanocrystals of Semiconductors and Also Optical Scatterers," U.S. Patent No. 5,434,878, July 18, 1995; ____ "Second Harmonic Generation and Self Frequency Doubling Laser Materials Comprised of Bulk Germanosilicate and Aluminosilicate Glasses," U.S. Patent No. 5,157,674, Oct. 20, 1992; ____ "Optical Gain Medium Having Doped Nanocrystals of Semiconductors and Also Optical Scatterers," U.S. Patent No. 5,233,621, Aug. 3, 1993; ____ "Optically Encoded Phase Matched Second harmonic Generation Device and Self Frequency Doubling Laser Material Using Semiconductor Microcrystallite Doped Glasses," U.S. Patent No. 5,253,258, Oct. 12, 1993; ____ "Optical Sources Having a Strongly Scattering Gain Medium Providing Laser-like Action," U.S. Patent application No. 08/210,710, filed Mar. 19, 1994. See also Nabil M. Lawandy, R.M. Balachandran, A.S.L. Gomes and E. Sauvain, "Laser action in strongly scattering media," Nature, Letters, 368(6470), Mar. 31, 1994, p. 436-438. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 09:13:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71GCcTQ028784; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:12:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71GCZo8028753; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:12:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:12:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:12:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050801161213.HVHM9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > ...overunity at Walmart? Why not? I have it on good authority (Newman's book :-) that Minn Kota stole an ou design for their trolling motor. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 09:41:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71Gelfg015369; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:41:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71Gejci015335; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:40:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:40:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=Ey5gK4S/HfchlmCUslNOTcQ+yk59a2lutz5fkFYOhyiz8HluEp4PCrbXPHK09iqS; Message-ID: <410-22005811154022570 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:40:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c7e1c128bca4b5646df6284e9b668726350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.178 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Is this what Fred is getting all "Stoked" up about? > Getting close, Jones. BTW. water vapor from the air can form a tenacious adsorption layer on the bulb glass, the leaking UV can dissociate it into H & O on the the surface. If you get the spin of one of the electrons in a H2 molecule in the right direction under a hard ball collision it should form Hydrino Hydride which is a LOW ENERGY version of the P-e-P (Proton-Electron-Proton) ---> Deuteron + neutrino reaction seen in Hot Fusion. I'll explain that later. :-) Frederick http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/qm2/modules/m1-3/molecules.htm "Homopolar molecules, consisting of two identical atoms, are inactive in the infrared. The Hamiltonian for the nuclear motion is not perturbed by the oscillating electric field, because the charge distribution has no permanent dipole moment. However the Hamiltonian for the electronic motion is perturbed, and therefore the molecule can acquire an induced dipole moment. If the frequency of the oscillating electric field lies in the optical range transitions between electronic states can be induced. Photons of energy can be absorbed and reemitted. This phenomenon is called Rayleigh scattering. If during the scattering a transition between occurs, then the energy of the scattered photon will be . We therefore can observe scattered photons of three different frequencies. ( Rayleigh line ), ( Raman-Stokes line ), ( Raman-anti Stokes line ). This can also be observed with heteropolar molecules." > > "When a phosphor or other luminescent substance emits light, it > gives in most cases an emission according to Stokes' Law. > > This law states that the wavelength of the fluorescent (emitted) > light is always greater than the wavelength of the exciting > radiation. It was first observed in 1852 in the memoir "On the > Change of Refrangibility of Light," by Sir G.G. Stokes. In terms > of energy the relationship states that e em < e ab. While Stokes' > Law holds for the majority of cases, it does not hold in certain > instances. In some cases the wave length is the same for both the > absorbed and the emitted radiation. That is, the efficiency > appears to be perfect or unity. This is known as resonance > radiation. In other cases Stokes' Law does not hold where the > energy emitted is greater than the energy absorbed. This is known > as Anti-Stokes emission. > > In 1935 Prileshajewa showed that there is an energy difference as > much as 1.1 v between the exciting light and the fluorescence of > aniline vapor. This added energy is attributed to additions from > the internal energy of the molecule." > > However, when the active medium produces excess energy emission, > and continues to do so, then the added energy cannot be attributed > to additions from the internal energy of the molecule, unless the > internal energy of the molecule is itself continually being > replaced from -- you guessed it -- the vacuum's fierce interaction > with the molecule's charges. Further, the dynamic dipoles > comprising the molecule or the particle/liquid boundary, can > produce double-surface E-fields of large magnitude, as is > well-known in electrochemistry. Multipass retroreflection between > TiO2 particles (Lawandy) or between palladium-clad, charged beads > (Patterson) can collect and disperse (as scattered coherent > photons) additional energy from the powerful S-flows of the > double-surface Poynting generators. > > It follows that, by "doctoring" anti-Stokes radiation situations > so as to allow multipass retroreflection and thus multicollection, > a permissible overunity process emerges that is practical. It is > also one which can be developed into commercial overunity and even > self-energizing power sources. > > Excess emission from a medium has been known for a long time, but > not much has been done with it until the work of Letokhov and the > work and inventions of Lawandy. > > Nabil M. Lawandy, "Optical Gain Medium Having Doped Nanocrystals > of Semiconductors and Also Optical Scatterers," U.S. Patent No. > 5,434,878, July 18, 1995; ____ "Second Harmonic Generation and > Self Frequency Doubling Laser Materials Comprised of Bulk > Germanosilicate and Aluminosilicate Glasses," U.S. Patent No. > 5,157,674, Oct. 20, 1992; ____ "Optical Gain Medium Having Doped > Nanocrystals of Semiconductors and Also Optical Scatterers," U.S. > Patent No. 5,233,621, Aug. 3, 1993; ____ "Optically Encoded Phase > Matched Second harmonic Generation Device and Self Frequency > Doubling Laser Material Using Semiconductor Microcrystallite Doped > Glasses," U.S. Patent No. 5,253,258, Oct. 12, 1993; ____ "Optical > Sources Having a Strongly Scattering Gain Medium Providing > Laser-like Action," U.S. Patent application No. 08/210,710, filed > Mar. 19, 1994. See also Nabil M. Lawandy, R.M. Balachandran, > A.S.L. Gomes and E. Sauvain, "Laser action in strongly scattering > media," Nature, Letters, 368(6470), Mar. 31, 1994, p. 436-438. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 10:42:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71HfsFM023220; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:42:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71HfnlV023136; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:41:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:41:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050801103626.028034f8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:39:36 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Comment by J. Barandes In-Reply-To: <20050801145453.89275.qmail web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050729221327.02822100 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20050801145453.89275.qmail web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:54 AM 8/1/2005, you wrote: >Has anyone considered the fact that by choosing to >publish such an unprofessional reply by a GRAD STUDENT >that perhaps The Crimson is actually showing covert >support for CF by undermining the case against it? I agree with Jed, I don't think so. However, I think the profs' and other so-called physics pundits are being a lot more careful about what they say about CF these days. I think Happer was the only one to continue saying outright foolishness to the press in recent memory. I refer to a quote of his in Physics Today regarding the 2004 DOE CF where he said something about burying it again for a final time, and true believers will always keep on believing. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 13:04:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71K3QET013698; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:03:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71K3MJb013665; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:03:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:03:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EE7FF0.5090604 sumosound.de> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:02:56 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling References: <20050730.124023.21367.196506 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> <004101c5954c$be4ce250$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42EC4E97.50902@iinet.net.au> <006601c595d2$c2100df0$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42ED5391.90500@sumosound.de> <00cf01c5969a$16a8ac10$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <00cf01c5969a$16a8ac10$e75bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > -------------------------------- > Most interesting and another illustration of my point that recycling is not > simple at all when you take it seriously. I am surprised that the amount of > gallium or arsenic from microchips could possibly alter the metallurgical > qualities of steel enough to disqualify it for re-use. Ths principal > constiuent of a microship is hyper-pure silicon to which trace amounts of > dopants which may include arsenic and gallium are added to produce the > transistor effects. These amounts are so small that ordinary chemical > analysis of a microchip will report it as pure silicon. An automotive engine > compartment is an extremely hars environment for electronics -- hot and > electrically noisy -- and it was some time before components were developed > that could operate in that environment. Gallium and aresnic might be in > other electronic components, or other components of a car. > > Mike Carrell Moin Mike, Yeah, I was a bit surprised myself. The steel industry itself has evidently become more complex in modern days, and the American steel manufacturers have had to learn higher forms of metalurgy to try and compete quality-wise with their Japanese counterparts. The automobile industry is now demanding a type of steel that is non-magnetizable. I think that this is for the car body, and I think that it may have to do with the shielding of the electrical components against EMP. I am speculating on this, as I don't remember all of the details of the conversation. Another engineer that I know worked on building a EMP test chamber for a Korean car manufacturer to test the car's resistance to external electrical interferance. This was about the same time period, and if you will recall, there were some brands of autos that had high rates of failure in the electrical systems in the early days of the introduction of microchips and computer logic to the control systems of those cars. The other consideration that may have played a role was the toxicity of the gallium and arsenic to the environment, and to the steel workers themselves during the re-processing of the steel. This engineer had an incredible talent for reticence when it came to discussing any possibility of liability or loss of intellectual property. Most successful industrial engineers, and all the engineers that I have met who work on military projects are like that. They come to me with very carefully crafted scientific or engineering questions that are extremely narrow in scope, and then try and give the appearance that they don't even know why they asked the questions in the first place. It is quite often extremely hilarious when you try and get some kind of context out of them. Since I know some of these guys pretty well, I can usually crowbar some info out of them with a few jokes, but I generally stop for the sake of the relationship when it looks like I am entering a subject area that is not funny to them. It is a stark contrast to dicussing an engineering project or a scientific concept in The Vortex Group. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 15:28:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j71MR5jK031483; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:27:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j71MR2Lu031443; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:27:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:27:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <2bf60f4c-21be-42cd-bdeb-ccfc8c5cf717> Message-ID: <000f01c596e8$12d0cca0$e141ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050730.124023.21367.196506 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> <004101c5954c$be4ce250$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42EC4E97.50902@iinet.net.au> <006601c595d2$c2100df0$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42ED5391.90500@sumosound.de> <00cf01c5969a$16a8ac10$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42EE7FF0.5090604@sumosound.de> Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:26:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <69MDc.A.FrH.1Gq7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Michael Huffman" Subject: Re: Ed's Storms hope: Recycling > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > -------------------------------- > > Most interesting and another illustration of my point that recycling is not > > simple at all when you take it seriously. I am surprised that the amount of > > gallium or arsenic from microchips could possibly alter the metallurgical > > qualities of steel enough to disqualify it for re-use. Ths principal > > constiuent of a microship is hyper-pure silicon to which trace amounts of > > dopants which may include arsenic and gallium are added to produce the > > transistor effects. These amounts are so small that ordinary chemical > > analysis of a microchip will report it as pure silicon. An automotive engine > > compartment is an extremely hars environment for electronics -- hot and > > electrically noisy -- and it was some time before components were developed > > that could operate in that environment. Gallium and aresnic might be in > > other electronic components, or other components of a car. > > > > Mike Carrell > > Moin Mike, > > Yeah, I was a bit surprised myself. The steel industry itself has > evidently become more complex in modern days, and the American steel > manufacturers have had to learn higher forms of metalurgy to try and > compete quality-wise with their Japanese counterparts. The automobile > industry is now demanding a type of steel that is non-magnetizable. I > think that this is for the car body, and I think that it may have to do > with the shielding of the electrical components against EMP. I am > speculating on this, as I don't remember all of the details of the > conversation. > > Another engineer that I know worked on building a EMP test chamber for a > Korean car manufacturer to test the car's resistance to external > electrical interferance. This was about the same time period, and if > you will recall, there were some brands of autos that had high rates of > failure in the electrical systems in the early days of the introduction > of microchips and computer logic to the control systems of those cars. > > The other consideration that may have played a role was the toxicity of > the gallium and arsenic to the environment, and to the steel workers > themselves during the re-processing of the steel. This engineer had an > incredible talent for reticence when it came to discussing any > possibility of liability or loss of intellectual property. Most > successful industrial engineers, and all the engineers that I have met > who work on military projects are like that. They come to me with very > carefully crafted scientific or engineering questions that are extremely > narrow in scope, and then try and give the appearance that they don't > even know why they asked the questions in the first place. It is quite > often extremely hilarious when you try and get some kind of context out > of them. Since I know some of these guys pretty well, I can usually > crowbar some info out of them with a few jokes, but I generally stop for > the sake of the relationship when it looks like I am entering a subject > area that is not funny to them. It is a stark contrast to dicussing an > engineering project or a scientific concept in The Vortex Group. > > Knuke -------------------- Very interesting. Having worked in industry many years on both commercial and government projects, I can give credence to your comments. The liability issue can be an extremely hot button, costing a company very large sums defencing against the very odor of liability. Deniability is the defense. I was once peripherally involved with a process to put barcodes on the rims of TV picture tubes for QC purposes. This is a challenge because of the very adverse conditions of the frit seal lehr. The lawyers did not like at all any way of linking the performance [possible implosion] of a picture tube to the process conditions. I'm not sure if the marking process was ever implemented. EMP defense usually implies resistance to a possible high altitude nuclear blast that could disturb the earth's magnetic field and cause widespread damage to all kinds of electrical systems. With a car with extensive electronics in all kinds of control situations, one will worry about unpredicted electromagnetic events that could suddenly stall a car or send it out of control. An EMP facility would be a good way to probe such vulnerabilities by wideband electromagnetic shock. I didn't know that auto manufacturers were doing this, but it does make sense. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 1 23:49:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j726n1U2008650; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:49:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j726mxEJ008612; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:48:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:48:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EF1750.1010602 iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:48:48 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: uoting from the Re: Ed's Stroms hope References: <001501c5957d$dc0653e0$f7027841 xptower> <008401c595f5$caf558d0$e75bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42EDEB71.9010306@iinet.net.au> <001001c596a6$6e56b180$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001001c596a6$6e56b180$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-cUme.A.gGC.adx7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There's another catch with Iron fertilization, the idea included a possible cost recovery via fishing profits. The bloom would also increase fish harvests and the fishermen could be taxed or billed for the benefits. That was pert of the plan but the evidence was mixed. Some areas got booms in jellyfish instead, they fowl the nets, sting crewmen and you can't eat the things so fertilization is out. If you can also seed the bloom with the right fish it might work. Without a proper fish stocks ownership systems you wont open ocean farming any time soon. I published a paper in Fusion Facts a decade ago about cold fusions impact on the ocean. It would open up the seabed, depths and surface to homesteading and colonization. The law of the sea would need to be changed to cope or be scraped. Land verses ocean wars might be a possibility. The writers of the TV series "Sea Quest DSV" picked up the same set of idea's and ran with it. Those subs were cold fusion powered in the original script. As attacks on Cold fusion progressed through 1990-91 the writers slipped in other power plants supplanting the Cold fusion reactors from the plot line. The world they depict of a near lawless frontier of waring submarine miners and radical utopian colonies may still lie ahead. Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Bruce" > > >> What's the cheapest way to sequest a ton of carbon? Bury 1.5 tons of >> waste plastic! It'll be there for centuries. > > > Or toss a few ounces of rust into the ocean.... I suspect that stip > mine in Texas has enough surface minerals to sink more carbon than it > generated... 'fonly.... > > At least that was the prevalent eco-thinking twenty years ago." > > "Ocean Iron Fertilization" ... a grand concept but we still do not > know if it is a viable way to remove Atmospheric CO2. But if not, > there are other ways. > http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/cat_engineering_environmental.html > > Some scientists are questioning the viability of ocean iron seeding as > a means to sequester carbon from atmospheric carbon dioxide. The idea > can be traced back to a Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution meeting > in 1985, when John Martin, then director of the Moss Landing Marine > Laboratory, boasted: "Give me half a tanker of iron and I'll give you > an ice age." Martin's general hypothesis that iron seeding would > create a photosynthetic bloom proved correct, although the idea has > turned out to be far less economical than he expected. > > The breakeven point for sequestration programs is $10 per ton of > carbon dioxide; models based on the iron-seeding experiments still put > the cost at $100 or more. Many scientists involved in iron-seeding > projects as well as those observing them from afar say that iron > seeding for purposeful carbon sequestration just doesn't work. "In the > beginning, the assumptions were that for every atom of iron, we could > sink 500,000 atoms of carbon," says Ken Caldeira, an ocean > carbon-cycle scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in > California, who helped to create computer simulations. Those estimates > have since been revised downwards by hundreds of orders of magnitude, > he says. > > The latest Southern Ocean Iron Fertilization Experiment (SOFeX) > provides good or bad news for the prospect of iron fertilization as a > way to increase photosynthesis by marine plant organisms as a way to > cheaply remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Some scientists > still hold that it is the cheapest method to remove atmospheric carbon > dioxide found to date. > > The jury is still out. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 00:32:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j727WLdl025829; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:32:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j727WJD3025803; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:32:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:32:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050802073203.009dafa0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:32:03 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Negative mass, etc. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subsequent to learning that Mills realised that the electron had negative mass I have been revisiting a post I wrote a year ago. I have copied the relevant part below. ========================================================= Iterative Hierarchical Strain and the atom. Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 ...As far as hierarchical strain is concerned the atom is conveniently divided into two quite distinct regions, the nucleus and the electronic cloud. It is not difficult to see which must be the region in relative tension and which must be the region in relative compression. One can visualise the Gamma atmosphere being torn apart with the nucleus under enormous relative compression and the cloud under enormous tension relative to the Gamma atmosphere pressure. Electrons therefore would seem to be holes opening up in the Gamma atmosphere. Interestingly enough there is an artefact which models this situation rather nicely. When I was a boy I had a habit of taking things apart. I rarely managed to get them back together again but I did have the satisfaction of seeing how they worked. One of the things I cut open was a golf ball. I found it consisted of a great length of elastic wound tightly around a hard rubber core - in effect a archetypal model of the prestressed atom. ========================================================= So in effect the electron can be seen as having negative strain energy and the proton as having positive strain energy. The beauty of looking at energy in terms of strain rather than in terms of mass is that it is immediately obvious how negative mass arises. Strain can be positive or negative, minus epsilon (-e) or plus epsilon +(e). Now strain energy which entails strain squared has the same positive sign whether it is derived from -e or +e. Of course, strictly speaking it is not mass, as such, which is positive or negative, it is wot underlies mass that is positive or negative, i.e. velocity if one is taking the dynamic view, or strain if one is taking the static view. In terms of mass energy then, the electron has a tensile mass energy, a specific mass energy below that of the surrounding neutral mass aether and the positron has a compressive mass energy above that of the surrounding neutral mass aether. Now we don't have the problem of being able to visualize a neutral state in the case of charge since we already see charge as negative and positive. This suggests that charge is a direct measure of some scale of velocity and not a indirect (squared) measure as in the case of mass. At present, of course, positive and negative charges are assumed to be entirely symmetrical, but clearly this is nonsense. If the positron and electron were completely symmetrical to each other then anti- hydrogen (negatively charged proton surrounded by a positron) would be just as common as normal hydrogen. If charge is seen as source and sink at the bottom of some real ocean then the asymmetry is plain. A source in a real ocean has to be at a higher pressure than a sink and therefor the absolute strain energy at the relevant scale has to be greater for the source than for the sink. One would imagine that this necessary asymmetry between electron and positron would show up in the properties of positronium but I can find no evidence of it - except of course, that of the energy given out as both mass and charge revert to the ambient aether values of neutral mass and neutral charge. It would seem that mass and charge are complementary hierarchical properties like pressure and compreture (reciprocal of temperature) at a higher level of structure. Increasing the pressure of a gas decreases the compreture and vice versa. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 00:44:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j727hZgh031117; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:43:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j727hXph031087; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:43:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:43:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=bz6JygSQWZPM1KIXIPoCyl4mk0t5iRQdRulCoBVvP/T9eKjs5FwIHzKBwfenCgNT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200582264330700 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comment by J. Barandes Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:43:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ad853d2816d5855b5b89c0dbf3b22e36350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.141 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It may not be "politically correct" but, I still like the pancakes part. Perhaps Jed's Cold Fusion (without mumbo-jumbo) critics are really tigers? http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm I remember hearing this story at about age 4 and it sure wet the appetite for Black-Strap molasses on buckwheat pancakes. The "butter" was white oleo (at that time it was against the law in Pennsylvania to sell oleo colored to look like real butter) but there was a packet of dye that you could mix in provided with it. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

It may not be "politically correct" but, I still like the pancakes part.
 
Perhaps Jed's Cold Fusion (without mumbo-jumbo) critics are really tigers?  
 
 
I remember hearing this story at about age 4 and it
sure wet the appetite for Black-Strap molasses on
buckwheat pancakes. The "butter" was white oleo (at that time it was
against the law in Pennsylvania to sell oleo colored
to look like real butter) but there was a packet of dye that you
could mix in provided with it.
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 00:46:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j727kOOZ032344; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:46:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j727kNMx032330; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:46:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:46:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EF24C3.4050808 iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:46:11 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Jean-Louis Naudin's stirling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <55RqT.A.G5H.OTy7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Louis Naudin's stirling engine running on a glow discharge, tungsten welding rods in potassium Carbonate_** _** , looks good. It's 2003 work but the web site is relativily new. Except for the web page glitchs Steven noted is there any problem with naudin's work. The demonstration is itself quite powerful. I hope to use it and other material in presentations to my friends in the Mars Society. See: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/cfr/html/cfrstir.htm . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 01:16:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j728FfoL009895; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:15:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j728FdWp009875; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:15:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:15:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EF2B9C.1000101 iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:15:24 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Getting up a head of steam Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've sent this to a themo-electric generator supplier in the USA. I am looking for a water to water themoelectric generator capable of running good efficency at the temperature ranges of 90 C to 150 C; the hot side 90 to 150 C, cold side = just above tap water. We have a small heat flow of 40 watts thermal and would like at least 2 to 4 watts electric. Do you have such a unit or the capacity to build such a device? >They replied yes: >We can offer thermoelectric modules that are used in thermoelectric >generators. > >INBC1-127.08 HT $39 each, stock >Minimum order $250 > >You will need 1 or 2 modules to get 4 Watts at specified temperatures. > >Regards, > >Alex Wasserman >www.inbthermoelectric.com Can we build a cell with under 4 watts input for 40 Watts thermal output in the temperature range described above? OU of 10 to 1. I've assumed pressurisation to get above boiling point. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 01:21:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j728KoTQ012055; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:21:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j728KnqW012034; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:20:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:20:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=TliwDoYFsE5fZtdbOxDA/R1sOmTzddOTALHxUkA5KoM1pHP5EZnpfSGQRXQ6vEfi; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200582272044350 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Negative mass, etc. Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:20:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ee6cd3d19df2ca92739be4fc8cff1ffb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.45 Resent-Message-ID: <1jyvWD.A.87C.gzy7CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If this is true, Frank. How does the annihilation of an electron with a positron produce two photons each with 510 Mev positive energy? Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Grimer > To: > Date: 8/2/05 2:32:36 AM > Subject: Negative mass, etc. > > Subsequent to learning that Mills realised that the > electron had negative mass I have been revisiting a > post I wrote a year ago. I have copied the relevant > part below. > > ========================================================= > Iterative Hierarchical Strain and the atom. > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 > > ...As far as hierarchical strain is concerned the atom is > conveniently divided into two quite distinct regions, the > nucleus and the electronic cloud. It is not difficult to see > which must be the region in relative tension and which must > be the region in relative compression. One can visualise the > Gamma atmosphere being torn apart with the nucleus under > enormous relative compression and the cloud under enormous > tension relative to the Gamma atmosphere pressure. Electrons > therefore would seem to be holes opening up in the Gamma > atmosphere. > > Interestingly enough there is an artefact which models this > situation rather nicely. When I was a boy I had a habit of > taking things apart. I rarely managed to get them back > together again but I did have the satisfaction of seeing > how they worked. One of the things I cut open was a golf > ball. I found it consisted of a great length of elastic > wound tightly around a hard rubber core - in effect a > archetypal model of the prestressed atom. > ========================================================= > > So in effect the electron can be seen as having negative > strain energy and the proton as having positive strain > energy. > > The beauty of looking at energy in terms of strain > rather than in terms of mass is that it is immediately > obvious how negative mass arises. > > Strain can be positive or negative, minus epsilon (-e) > or plus epsilon +(e). Now strain energy which entails > strain squared has the same positive sign whether it > is derived from -e or +e. > > Of course, strictly speaking it is not mass, as such, > which is positive or negative, it is wot underlies > mass that is positive or negative, i.e. velocity if > one is taking the dynamic view, or strain if one is > taking the static view. > > In terms of mass energy then, the electron has a > tensile mass energy, a specific mass energy below > that of the surrounding neutral mass aether and the > positron has a compressive mass energy above that > of the surrounding neutral mass aether. > > Now we don't have the problem of being able to > visualize a neutral state in the case of charge > since we already see charge as negative and positive. > This suggests that charge is a direct measure of > some scale of velocity and not a indirect (squared) > measure as in the case of mass. > > At present, of course, positive and negative charges > are assumed to be entirely symmetrical, but clearly > this is nonsense. If the positron and electron were > completely symmetrical to each other then anti- > hydrogen (negatively charged proton surrounded by a > positron) would be just as common as normal hydrogen. > If charge is seen as source and sink at the bottom > of some real ocean then the asymmetry is plain. > A source in a real ocean has to be at a higher > pressure than a sink and therefor the absolute > strain energy at the relevant scale has to be > greater for the source than for the sink. > > One would imagine that this necessary asymmetry > between electron and positron would show up in the > properties of positronium but I can find no evidence > of it - except of course, that of the energy given > out as both mass and charge revert to the ambient > aether values of neutral mass and neutral charge. > > It would seem that mass and charge are complementary > hierarchical properties like pressure and compreture > (reciprocal of temperature) at a higher level of > structure. Increasing the pressure of a gas decreases > the compreture and vice versa. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 03:01:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j729uL94010108; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:56:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j729uJnq010097; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:56:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:56:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=UHHcyRXjKISqAiADenrtRv8byAuHeoPAAQ0FFe3Y6Tk3Ri//gUAt9mMnCCrBwmol; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200582285610660 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized Wave Particles vs Negative mass Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 03:56:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94093d7119b37e69e216cf0f7fc127e8646350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.248 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII One can envision circularly polarized (inertial mass) waves as particles. Hence, mass as being a resistance to change in location. By that reasoning "negative mass" implies negative resistance to translocation or constant massless motion (like a photon "swimming" through space. For instance, a 1.02 Mev photon colliding with an inertial mass splits into two 0.510 Mev circularly polarized (inertial) wave-particles, the positron and electron with spin mcr = hbar with a wave velocity at the speed of light c and a phase velocity of 137*c or c/alpha, with a relativistically invariant charge q = =/- 1.6e-19 coulombs (simply a 180 degree phase difference). FWIW, the three quarks that make up the proton ( 2 up or plus and one down negative) are most likely such creatures giving a net charge of 1 and a net spin of 1/2. Relativistic Electrodynamics shows experimentally that particles of like charge attract one another as light speed c is approached. Hence a negative wave-particle with clockwise near c spin will act as though it is positive and be attracted to a positive wave-particle with counter-clockwise near c spin. This configuration explains the "quark" makeup triad of the proton with the odd-man-out particle (meson) decaying to the external electron wave-particle with charge -q (in our reference frame). OTOH, the external electron wave-particle can be externally oriented in space in a way that puts it's ground state "orbit" (an unfortunate model) closer to the proton, allowing substantially more than the normal 13.6 ev energy release of the hydrogen atom. This bound state constitutes a neutral particle. A Hydrino for instance? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

One can envision circularly polarized (inertial mass) waves
as particles. Hence, mass as being a resistance to change in location.
 
By that reasoning "negative mass" implies negative resistance to translocation
or constant massless motion (like a photon "swimming" through space.
 
For instance, a 1.02 Mev photon colliding with an inertial mass splits into
two 0.510 Mev circularly polarized  (inertial) wave-particles, the positron and electron
with spin mcr = hbar with a wave velocity at the speed of light c and a phase velocity of 137*c or
c/alpha, with a relativistically invariant charge q = =/- 1.6e-19 coulombs (simply a
180 degree phase difference).
 
FWIW, the three quarks that make up the proton ( 2 up or plus and one down negative)
are most likely such creatures giving a net charge of 1 and a net spin of 1/2.
 
Relativistic Electrodynamics shows experimentally that particles of like charge
attract one another as light speed  c is approached. Hence a negative wave-particle
with clockwise near c spin will act as though it is positive and be attracted to
a positive wave-particle with counter-clockwise near c spin.
This configuration explains the "quark"  makeup triad of the proton with the
odd-man-out particle (meson) decaying to the external electron wave-particle
with charge -q (in our reference frame).
 
OTOH, the external electron wave-particle can be externally oriented in space in a way
that puts it's ground state "orbit" (an unfortunate model)  closer to
the proton, allowing substantially more than the normal 13.6  ev  energy release
of the hydrogen atom.
 
This bound state constitutes a neutral particle.   A Hydrino for instance?
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 04:03:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j72Ax8jl028930; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 03:59:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j72Ax75b028921; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 03:59:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 03:59:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050802105845.009da9c8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:58:45 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Negative mass, etc. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:57:37 +0100 >To: fjsparber earthlink.net >From: Grimer >Subject: RE: Negative mass, etc. > >At 02:20 am 02/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>If this is true, Frank. How does the annihilation of an electron with a >>positron >>produce two photons each with 510 Mev positive energy? >> >>Frederick >> > > >No problem at all Fred. > >If you "annihilate" a prestressed concrete beam by destroying >the wedges at one end, then the steel shoots off in one direction >spearing anyone who's unfortunate enough to be standing in >line, and the concrete shoots off in the other direction squashing >the opposite in-liner. > >In the case of the steel it is minus epsilon strain energy which >has been converted into motion (your photon going in one direction) >and in the case of the concrete it is plus epsilon strain energy >which has been converted into motion (your photon going in the other >direction). > >The problem with the concept of energy is that it is really a >disguised velocity/strain squared - and in squaring, the vector >aspect of velocity/strain is hidden. > >Also as the Hotson paradox shows, the electron and positron don't >"annihilate" each other at all. They merely neutralize each others >mass and charge to form a neutral mass, neutral charge particle, >the Materon, the forth member of the minimalist nuclear Mendeleev >table. > >If we pursue the prestress beam analogy the we can see that >charge is analogous to the linear tension strain in the >steel and mass is analogous to the area compressive strain in >the steel. When the wedges are destroyed both the offset tensile >and area strains are converted into velocity, the photon analog. > >After all - ask yourself. Why on earth should the photons head off >in opposite directions, something you conveniently omitted to mention? >Velocity is a vector. The net velocity of the system is zero. > >Energy and mass are derivative concepts with consequent loss of >information. To understand the mechanics of any system one has >to integrate back to the underlying velocity/strain aspects. > >I would use the term "get back to basics" if it hadn't been besmirched >by the hypocritical action of John Major who introduced it to British >politics. > >Cheers > >Frank Grimer > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 05:11:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j72C74RC021057; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:07:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j72C712N021012; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:07:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:07:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <8e68a15a-4835-4ffb-baf1-7756f48e4b65> Message-ID: <003501c5975a$961f1f40$9650ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <42EF24C3.4050808 iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Jean-Louis Naudin's stirling Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:57:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jean-Louis Naudin's stirling engine running on a glow discharge, > tungsten welding rods in potassium Carbonate_** _** , looks good. It's > 2003 work but the web site is relativily new. Except for the web page > glitchs Steven noted is there any problem with naudin's work. The > demonstration is itself quite powerful. I hope to use it and other > material in presentations to my friends in the Mars Society. > See: > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/cfr/html/cfrstir.htm ---------------------------------- Let's see. You run current through the solution in the beaker and it gets hot and runs the Stirling engine. **Any** solution will do this by simple resistance heating. No cold fusion demonstrated. Naudin references Mizuno's work with plasma electrolysis and calls this "cold fusion", which may incidentally be happening. Electrolysis with potassium carbonate is also a setup for the BlackLight Power process as demonstrated by Mills over a decade ago. So that may also be happening. With the setup shown, there is no way to separate out these effects. Mike Carrell > > . > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 06:02:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j72Cvnbc007048; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:58:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j72CvkUZ007003; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:57:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:57:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hSAF1NbFUf1c30fpdE7b/gQ47pUIVCUYVZ9Wa7YO6PP9HI65rx4vFlD5Z7HxzbYM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005822115721850 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Negative mass, etc. Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:57:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fff936fba7a418ec94728618b081306d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.25 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very "Concrete" analogies, Frank. Portland cement manufacture is a "Basic" industry too. :-) Frederick Frank Grimer wrote: > > At 02:20 am 02/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: > >If this is true, Frank. How does the annihilation of an electron with a > >positron > >produce two photons each with 510 Mev positive energy? > > > >Frederick > > > > > No problem at all Fred. > > If you "annihilate" a prestressed concrete beam by destroying > the wedges at one end, then the steel shoots off in one direction > spearing anyone who's unfortunate enough to be standing in > line, and the concrete shoots off in the other direction squashing > the opposite in-liner. > > In the case of the steel it is minus epsilon strain energy which > has been converted into motion (your photon going in one direction) > and in the case of the concrete it is plus epsilon strain energy > which has been converted into motion (your photon going in the other > direction). > > The problem with the concept of energy is that it is really a > disguised velocity/strain squared - and in squaring, the vector > aspect of velocity/strain is hidden. > > Also as the Hotson paradox shows, the electron and positron don't > "annihilate" each other at all. They merely neutralize each others > mass and charge to form a neutral mass, neutral charge particle, > the Materon, the forth member of the minimalist nuclear Mendeleev > table. > > If we pursue the prestress beam analogy the we can see that > charge is analogous to the linear tension strain in the > steel and mass is analogous to the area compressive strain in > the steel. When the wedges are destroyed both the offset tensile > and area strains are converted into velocity, the photon analog. > > After all - ask yourself. Why on earth should the photons head off > in opposite directions, something you conveniently omitted to mention? > Velocity is a vector. The net velocity of the system is zero. > > Energy and mass are derivative concepts with consequent loss of > information. To understand the mechanics of any system one has > to integrate back to the underlying velocity/strain aspects. > > I would use the term "get back to basics" if it hadn't been besmirched > by the hypocritical action of John Major who introduced it to British > politics. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 06:14:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j72DAGBf012499; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:10:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j72DAEmn012474; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:10:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:10:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42EF709D.8090702 iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:09:49 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jean-Louis Naudin's stirling References: <42EF24C3.4050808 iinet.net.au> <003501c5975a$961f1f40$9650ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <003501c5975a$961f1f40$9650ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_mUqyC.A.2CD.1C37CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I know the demo is dodgy; most of the heats going up not down! and yes I could do that with a cup of coffee. We need to build a real heat engine demo unit. I know its not a good demo of the basic glow discharge work but could we make that Stirling run on something? A real CF cell. It's the heat engine side of things we need to look at more. Mike Carrell wrote: >>Jean-Louis Naudin's stirling engine running on a glow discharge, >>tungsten welding rods in potassium Carbonate_** _** , looks good. It's >>2003 work but the web site is relativily new. Except for the web page >>glitchs Steven noted is there any problem with naudin's work. The >>demonstration is itself quite powerful. I hope to use it and other >>material in presentations to my friends in the Mars Society. >>See: >>http://jlnlabs.imars.com/cfr/html/cfrstir.htm >> >> >---------------------------------- >Let's see. You run current through the solution in the beaker and it gets >hot and runs the Stirling engine. **Any** solution will do this by simple >resistance heating. No cold fusion demonstrated. Naudin references Mizuno's >work with plasma electrolysis and calls this "cold fusion", which may >incidentally be happening. > >Electrolysis with potassium carbonate is also a setup for the BlackLight >Power process as demonstrated by Mills over a decade ago. So that may also >be happening. > >With the setup shown, there is no way to separate out these effects. > >Mike Carrell > > >>. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 08:36:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j72FVnU9008861; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:32:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j72FVkvG008845; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:31:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:31:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050802153119.009848f4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:31:19 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Negative mass, etc. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:23:28 +0100 To: fjsparber earthlink.net From: Grimer Subject: RE: Negative mass, etc. At 06:57 am 02/08/2005 -0500, Fred wrote: > Very "Concrete" analogies, Frank. > > Portland cement manufacture is a "Basic" industry too. :-) > > Frederick Indeed it is - in more senses than one. And it is because of Portland Cement's "Basic" (as opposed to Acidic) properties that those rusty steel reinforcing bars that one sees lying around on building sites won't continue to rust when used for reinforcing concrete - as you are no doubt aware. 8-) Of course, if you economise on the cement content then over the years carbonation will reach down to the reinforcement which then begins to rust and spall off the concrete cover. When sprayed with phenolphthalein a section of such carbonated concrete will clearly show the depth that carbonation has reached by the intense pink colouration which reaches from the surface of the concrete to the steel. When aerated concrete manufacturers first started reinforcing their material and using it for structural members, they didn't realise the importance of the pacifying effect of alkaline OPC. Consequently their steel bars rusted to b******y in very short order with subsequent catastrophic collapse of the beams. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 09:42:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j72GbSN7004847; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:37:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j72GbPIK004826; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:37:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:37:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JduShsPgpo3gWqs8DswHMp+MJSNvsCYj2lw2GiFsoq0Ja+dTqRGKZ7GOtV6oUIpK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005822153719340 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jean-Louis Naudin's stirling Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:37:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f5da4d12e600893a9ab7230203be939b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.220 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Wesley Bruce wrote: > > I know its not a good demo of the basic glow discharge work but could we > make that Stirling run on something? A real CF cell. > It's the heat engine side of things we need to look at more. > For an engine that has been around for over two hundred years the Stirling has yet to prove out over a CFC (refrigerant) vapor "steam" engine for shaft power from low grade heat . A chimney/stack effect turbine-generator in a self-compensating "J" pipe to take advantage of atmospheric temperature-pressure differential containing the OU device would be simple to come up with. This psychrometric calculator gives a rough idea of the density of air at various "J" tube chimney heights. http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm Wind flow augmentation plus the stack effect solar heat from multi-pane windows and brick walls, adds up for a home brew unit too. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
> I know its not a good demo of the basic glow discharge work but could we
> make that Stirling run on something? A real CF cell.
> It's the heat engine side of things we need to look at more.
>
For an engine that has been around for over two hundred years the Stirling
has yet to prove out over a CFC (refrigerant) vapor "steam" engine for shaft power from low grade heat .
A chimney/stack effect turbine-generator in a self-compensating "J" pipe to take advantage of 
atmospheric temperature-pressure differential containing the OU device would be simple to come up with.
 
This psychrometric calculator gives a rough idea of the density of air at various
"J" tube chimney heights.  
 
 
Wind flow augmentation plus the stack effect solar heat from multi-pane windows
and brick walls, adds up for a home brew unit too. :-)
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 12:18:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j72JIEho010721; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:18:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j72JIB3C010692; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:18:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:18:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Phytoplankton Plummet Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:17:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050802191749.ZUBZ12809.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is somewhat alarming news: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/08/02/ocean.crisis.ap/index.html "The bottom has fallen out of the coastal food chain, and there's just not enough food out there," said Julia Parrish, a seabird ecologist at the University of Washington in Seattle. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 12:43:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j72JgfGs021563; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:42:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j72JgdOf021537; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:42:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:42:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050802153520.044b25c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:42:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet In-Reply-To: <20050802191749.ZUBZ12809.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050802191749.ZUBZ12809.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_14673484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4I_-m.A.ZQF.uy87CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_14673484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >This is somewhat alarming news: My guess is that this is caused by global warming. In that case, we have nothing to worry about. The Greening Earth Society assures us that global warming will be good for both man and nature. Note: The Greening Earth Society is a front organization for the coal industry. Yes, it really is called that. See: http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/ Some quotes: No proof is sufficient: In the face of evidence resulting from their own research, some scientists refuse to abandon their preconception that computer-based climate models reliably forecast future climate . . . Timetable of Doom: United Kingdom newspaper The Independent loses credibility as its tales of global warming doom and gloom grow increasingly outrageous. Disaster averted: New research suggests human activity over the last 8,000 years may have headed off an impending next ice age. That's a good thing, right? . . . Regarding the last item: Woops! Don't say that, Greening Earthers. That indicates mankind really can change the climate by burning things. That last item is kind of like the tobacco industry bragging that it will reduce Social Security costs by killing off old people. Or, circa 1970, when it was revealed that women who smoke have children of low birthweight, one tobacco company expert physician said, "after all, some women prefer to have smaller babies." I suppose it would be less trouble . . . - Jed --=====================_14673484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

This is somewhat alarming news:

My guess is that this is caused by global warming. In that case, we have nothing to worry about. The Greening Earth Society assures us that global warming will be good for both man and nature.

Note: The Greening Earth Society is a front organization for the coal industry. Yes, it really is called that. See:

http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/

Some quotes:

No proof is sufficient: In the face of evidence resulting from their own research, some scientists refuse to abandon their preconception that computer-based climate models reliably forecast future climate . . .

Timetable of Doom: United Kingdom newspaper The Independent loses credibility as its tales of global warming doom and gloom grow increasingly outrageous.

Disaster averted: New research suggests human activity over the last 8,000 years may have headed off an impending next ice age. That’s a good thing, right? . . .


Regarding the last item: Woops! Don't say that, Greening Earthers. That indicates mankind really can change the climate by burning things. That last item is kind of like the tobacco industry bragging that it will reduce Social Security costs by killing off old people. Or, circa 1970, when it was revealed that women who smoke have children of low birthweight, one tobacco company expert physician said, "after all, some women prefer to have smaller babies." I suppose it would be less trouble . . .

- Jed
--=====================_14673484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 17:11:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j730Ag8G005494; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:11:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j730AeMm005465; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:10:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:10:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002b01c597bf$b74e0ae0$44027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: uoting from the Re: Ed's Storms hope Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:10:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01C59795.CDEE6080"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C59795.CDEE6080 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0028_01C59795.CDEE6080" ------=_NextPart_001_0028_01C59795.CDEE6080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMike Carrell wrote.. >MC: Jed Rothwell has been beating this drum for years, lamenting that = as each year passes without measurable progress thousands suffer and die in Africa and other developing countries. And he is right, so far. Jed = wrote a book and posted it for download on lenr-canr website, portraying a rosy future CF world. He hopes to ignite a popular demand for this. > The simple, brutal fact with respect to CF is that there is no visible = device which is ready for prime time [scale-up, packaging, promotion, etc.]. I = say visible because there may be developments which are **not** being = discussed because there is no patent protection to compensate investors in = commercial enterprises. CF in principle could provide the energy to reduce = manufactured objects to concentrated, pure elements. CF could supply the energy = necessary to support all the collection programs, local and national. All this, without adding to global warming or pollution. But not yet. There is no = sure path forward yet visible. >MC: I repeat. BlackLight Power is making all the noises and signals of = an enterprise getting ready to get out of the egg stage >BlackLight Power=92s commercialization strategy is to nonexclusively license joint-venture companies (JVS) to develop, make, use, or sell its patented and patent-pending technology in any field any where in the = world. These independent JVCs will invest the capital and time to develop commercial applications of the BlackLight Process. New patented = technologies resulting from development of commercial products or processes by the = JVC will be the property of the JVC. New patented technologies developed by BlackLight after the purchase of a license will be added to the original license. The license agreements will be offered for an annual = maintenance fee and a minority equity position in the licensed, JVC. Companies with relevant capabilities or interest in developing new products or valuable = new patented technology will require a license and are encouraged to contact = us. Richard writes.. Mike..thoughtful comments. =20 Black Light Power has put a viable " package " together and sustained = it for some 15 years which is saying something for an enterprise = principally in the business of selling ideas to investors.=20 Over that same period of time (15 years) ,one small manufacturing = company I know of, designed and built a series of technically = sophisicated products with the beginning capital derived from the = monthly charitable gift awarded social security retirees. From that base = , as the venture grew, the research budget rose to a paltry 350k per = year ( 30,000 per month). This tiny company now leads in their market = category and has obsoleted an entire segment of the existing methodology = in it's industry category dominated by two large world renowned = corporations.. The company is privately owned and never once operated in = the red. This tiny company holds no patents, has no intellectual = property and has no protection from another company that may wish = to"copy" the product designs. The thinking being that a patent is an = invitation to a lawsuit. A trademark and a copyright holds more weight. = The secret is in the "name" and not in the patented product. I once knew a guy with a wonderful idea of raising bullfrogs in a pond = under a natural gas flare. The business model demonstrated a frog lays = umteen millions eggs, from that the math get fuzzy but the gist is that = one can harvest a million frog legs a month at a dollar a dozen. He = tried to liscense the idea to me on a royalty base plus cash. When asked = why he didn't take the idea and run with it for that kind of profit, his = reply was that he was too busy with his job at the carwash. The business plan of BLP is an interesting study of the corresponding = and divergent views of different business models. I wish them success = because ,if they have the product they represent as having ,the world is = going to steal them blind by their using the marketing approach they = have embarked upon. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0028_01C59795.CDEE6080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Mike Carrell wrote..


>MC: Jed Rothwell has been beating this drum for years, = lamenting that=20 as
each year passes without measurable progress thousands suffer and = die=20 in
Africa and other developing countries. And he is right, so far. = Jed wrote=20 a
book and posted it for download on lenr-canr website, portraying a=20 rosy
future CF world. He hopes to ignite a popular demand for = this.

> The
simple, brutal fact with respect to CF is that there = is no=20 visible device
which is ready for prime time [scale-up, packaging, = promotion,=20 etc.]. I say
visible because there may be developments which are = **not**=20 being discussed
because there is no patent protection to compensate = investors=20 in commercial
enterprises. CF in principle could provide the energy = to reduce=20 manufactured
objects to concentrated, pure elements. CF could supply = the=20 energy necessary
to support all the collection programs, local and = national.=20 All this,
without adding to global warming or pollution. But not yet. = There=20 is no sure
path forward yet visible.

>MC: I repeat. = BlackLight=20 Power is making all the noises and signals of an
enterprise getting = ready to=20 get out of the egg stage

>BlackLight Power=92s commercialization strategy is to=20 nonexclusively
license joint-venture companies (JVS) to develop, = make, use,=20 or sell its
patented and patent-pending technology in any field any = where in=20 the world.
These independent JVCs will invest the capital and time to = develop
commercial applications of the BlackLight Process. New = patented=20 technologies
resulting from development of commercial products or = processes=20 by the JVC
will be the property of the JVC. New patented technologies = developed by
BlackLight after the purchase of a license will be added = to the=20 original
license. The license agreements will be offered for an = annual=20 maintenance
fee and a minority equity position in the licensed, JVC.=20 Companies with
relevant capabilities or interest in developing new = products=20 or valuable new
patented technology will require a license and are = encouraged=20 to contact us.

Richard writes..

Mike..thoughtful=20 comments.          

=

  Black Light Power has put a viable " package " together and = sustained=20 it for some 15 years which is saying something for an enterprise = principally in=20 the business of selling ideas to investors. 

Over that same period of time (15 years) ,one small manufacturing = company I=20 know of, designed and built a series of technically = sophisicated=20 products with the beginning capital derived from the monthly=20 charitable gift awarded social security retirees. From that base , as = the =20 venture grew, the research budget rose to a paltry 350k per year ( = 30,000 per=20 month). This tiny company now leads in their market category and has = obsoleted=20 an entire segment of the existing methodology in it's industry category=20 dominated by two large world renowned corporations.. The = company is=20 privately owned and never once operated in the red. This tiny = company =20 holds no patents, has no intellectual property and has no protection = from=20 another company that may wish to"copy" the product designs. The thinking = being=20 that a patent is an invitation to a lawsuit. A  trademark and a = copyright=20 holds more weight. The secret is in the "name" and not in the patented=20 product.

 I once knew a guy with a wonderful idea of raising bullfrogs in = a =20 pond under a natural gas flare. The business model demonstrated a frog = lays=20 umteen millions eggs, from that the math get fuzzy but the gist is that = one can=20 harvest a million frog legs a month at a dollar a dozen. He tried to = liscense=20 the idea to me on a royalty base plus cash. When asked why he didn't = take the=20 idea and run with it for that kind of profit, his reply was that he was = too busy=20 with his job at the carwash.

The business plan of BLP is an interesting study of the corresponding = and=20 divergent views of different  business models. I wish them = success=20 because ,if they have the product they represent as having ,the world is = going=20 to steal them blind by their using the marketing approach they have = embarked=20 upon.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0028_01C59795.CDEE6080-- ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C59795.CDEE6080 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002601c597bf$b6a8f140$44027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C59795.CDEE6080-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 18:06:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7315TJZ028437; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:05:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7315TPp028430; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:05:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:05:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <0500ebdc-514b-4b3a-993a-240a0e4b3d14> Message-ID: <001601c597c7$60941250$8c79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <002b01c597bf$b74e0ae0$44027841 xptower> Subject: Re: uoting from the Re: Ed's Storms hope Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:04:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Blank ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay Subject: uoting from the Re: Ed's Storms hope Mike Carrell wrote.. >MC: Jed Rothwell has been beating this drum for years, lamenting that as each year passes without measurable progress thousands suffer and die in Africa and other developing countries. And he is right, so far. Jed wrote a book and posted it for download on lenr-canr website, portraying a rosy future CF world. He hopes to ignite a popular demand for this. > The simple, brutal fact with respect to CF is that there is no visible device which is ready for prime time [scale-up, packaging, promotion, etc.]. I say visible because there may be developments which are **not** being discussed because there is no patent protection to compensate investors in commercial enterprises. CF in principle could provide the energy to reduce manufactured objects to concentrated, pure elements. CF could supply the energy necessary to support all the collection programs, local and national. All this, without adding to global warming or pollution. But not yet. There is no sure path forward yet visible. >MC: I repeat. BlackLight Power is making all the noises and signals of an enterprise getting ready to get out of the egg stage >BlackLight Power’s commercialization strategy is to nonexclusively license joint-venture companies (JVS) to develop, make, use, or sell its patented and patent-pending technology in any field any where in the world. These independent JVCs will invest the capital and time to develop commercial applications of the BlackLight Process. New patented technologies resulting from development of commercial products or processes by the JVC will be the property of the JVC. New patented technologies developed by BlackLight after the purchase of a license will be added to the original license. The license agreements will be offered for an annual maintenance fee and a minority equity position in the licensed, JVC. Companies with relevant capabilities or interest in developing new products or valuable new patented technology will require a license and are encouraged to contact us. Richard writes.. Mike..thoughtful comments. Black Light Power has put a viable " package " together and sustained it for some 15 years which is saying something for an enterprise principally in the business of selling ideas to investors. Over that same period of time (15 years) ,one small manufacturing company I know of, designed and built a series of technically sophisicated products with the beginning capital derived from the monthly charitable gift awarded social security retirees. From that base , as the venture grew, the research budget rose to a paltry 350k per year ( 30,000 per month). This tiny company now leads in their market category and has obsoleted an entire segment of the existing methodology in it's industry category dominated by two large world renowned corporations.. The company is privately owned and never once operated in the red. This tiny company holds no patents, has no intellectual property and has no protection from another company that may wish to"copy" the product designs. The thinking being that a patent is an invitation to a lawsuit. A trademark and a copyright holds more weight. The secret is in the "name" and not in the patented product. I once knew a guy with a wonderful idea of raising bullfrogs in a pond under a natural gas flare. The business model demonstrated a frog lays umteen millions eggs, from that the math get fuzzy but the gist is that one can harvest a million frog legs a month at a dollar a dozen. He tried to liscense the idea to me on a royalty base plus cash. When asked why he didn't take the idea and run with it for that kind of profit, his reply was that he was too busy with his job at the carwash. The business plan of BLP is an interesting study of the corresponding and divergent views of different business models. I wish them success because ,if they have the product they represent as having ,the world is going to steal them blind by their using the marketing approach they have embarked upon. Richard Mike replies: Also thoughtful comments, as are Jed's, who continues to advocate disclosure and run like hell to keep ahead of the competition. All of these may be right for different situations. There are many instances -- hula hoops, tiger tails, etc., where the essence is run fast with skillful publicity. BLP has a technology of great potential, but implementing it on a commercial scale in competition with existing infrastructure will take lots of R&D. It is quite possible that once the right demo or device is built so that it becomes "real" in a public sense, there will be a stampede of similar developments as there was withe IC engine and incandescent lamp. I sense that these copiers will soon find that the performance they can get will be inferior to that of BLP licensees, who will have the benefit of years of know-how. They will also find that most of the devices they build will be covered by BLP patents and a fee will be required. Patents run out, know-how diffuses, and mankind can benefit immensly. Meanwhile BLP and the original investors will be properly wealthy as are the early participants in Microsoft, etc. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 20:29:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j733SsUH029658; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:29:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j733SqaA029643; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:28:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:28:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F039E3.8050907 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:28:35 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: uoting from the Re: Ed's Storms hope References: <002b01c597bf$b74e0ae0$44027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <002b01c597bf$b74e0ae0$44027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Black light powers Randell Mills is very smart he went around the US patent embargo by filing in Australia. Aussy's will rule the global; energy market. Now if I could only convince a few other Aussys, including the PM that Its real. RC Macaulay wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote.. > > > > >MC: I repeat. BlackLight Power is making all the noises and signals of an > enterprise getting ready to get out of the egg stage > > >BlackLight Power’s commercialization strategy is to nonexclusively > license joint-venture companies (JVS) to develop, make, use, or sell its > patented and patent-pending technology in any field any where in the > world. > These independent JVCs will invest the capital and time to develop > commercial applications of the BlackLight Process. New patented > technologies > resulting from development of commercial products or processes by the JVC > will be the property of the JVC. New patented technologies developed by > BlackLight after the purchase of a license will be added to the original > license. The license agreements will be offered for an annual maintenance > fee and a minority equity position in the licensed, JVC. Companies with > relevant capabilities or interest in developing new products or > valuable new > patented technology will require a license and are encouraged to > contact us. > > Richard writes.. > > Mike..thoughtful comments. > > Black Light Power has put a viable " package " together and > sustained it for some 15 years which is saying something for an > enterprise principally in the business of selling ideas to investors. > > Over that same period of time (15 years) ,one small manufacturing > company I know of, designed and built a series of technically > sophisicated products with the beginning capital derived from the > monthly charitable gift awarded social security retirees. From that > base , as the venture grew, the research budget rose to a paltry 350k > per year ( 30,000 per month). This tiny company now leads in their > market category and has obsoleted an entire segment of the existing > methodology in it's industry category dominated by two large world > renowned corporations.. The company is privately owned and never once > operated in the red. This tiny company holds no patents, has no > intellectual property and has no protection from another company that > may wish to"copy" the product designs. The thinking being that a > patent is an invitation to a lawsuit. A trademark and a copyright > holds more weight. The secret is in the "name" and not in the patented > product. > > I once knew a guy with a wonderful idea of raising bullfrogs in a > pond under a natural gas flare. The business model demonstrated a frog > lays umteen millions eggs, from that the math get fuzzy but the gist > is that one can harvest a million frog legs a month at a dollar a > dozen. He tried to liscense the idea to me on a royalty base plus > cash. When asked why he didn't take the idea and run with it for that > kind of profit, his reply was that he was too busy with his job at the > carwash. > > The business plan of BLP is an interesting study of the corresponding > and divergent views of different business models. I wish them success > because ,if they have the product they represent as having ,the world > is going to steal them blind by their using the marketing approach > they have embarked upon. > > Richard > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 21:19:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j734IUKj016528; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:18:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j734ITS3016517; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:18:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:18:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:21:23 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <48vheq$12n4ovr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <48vheq$12n4ovr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200508030021.23229.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 25 July 2005 16:06, orionworks charter.net wrote: > > From: Grimer > > > > I've been re-reading one of Puthoff's old papers > > from 1986, which was recenly referred to on Vortex, > > viz, > > ... > > > ===================================================== > > ABSTRACT > > > > We show here that, within the stochastic electrodynamic > > formulation and at the level of Bohr theory, the ground > > state of the hydrogen atom can be precisely defined as > > resulting from a dynamic equilibrium between radiation > > emitted due to acceleration of the electron in its > > ground-state orbit and radiation absorbed from zero-point > > fluctuations of the background vacuum electromagnetic > > field, thereby resolving the issue of radiative collapse > > of the Bohr atom. > > ===================================================== > > > > and the tail end of the discussion, > > > > >========================================================== > > > > Finally, it is seen that a well-defined, precise quantita- > > tive argument can be made that the ground state of the > > hydrogen atom is defined by a dynamic equilibrium in > > which collapse of the state is prevented by the presence of > > zero-point fluctuations of the electromagnetic field. This > > carries with it the attendant implication that the stability > > of matter itself is largely mediated by ZPF phenomena in > > the manner described here, a concept that transcends the > > usual interpretation of the role and significance of zero- > > point fluctuations of the vacuum electromagnetic field. > >========================================================= > > Putoff's theory, on the surface, possesses an elegant symmetry to it, not > that I'm really in a position to challenge it. There remains, however, a > nagging question that gnaws at me. > > According to my own provincial understanding of QM theory it's considered > somewhat of an embarrassment that the electron doesn't seem to collapse > into the nucleus of the hydrogen atom - due to the fact that it should be > emanating energy - due to the fact that it is costantly 'accelerating' > around the hydrogen nucleus. Clearly, this ain't happening! > > Now, according to Putoff's model, ZPE fluctuations, more or less, > instantaneously re-supply the departing energy that according to QM should > be emanating from the orbiting electron. IOW, ZPE fluctuations conveniently > prevent the orbiting electron from collapsing into the nucleus, which > incidentally saves the universe as a secondary benefit. > > Never the less there remains, in my view, a HUGE unsolved mystery: > > If energy is being "emitted" only to be re-supplied by ZPE fluctuation that > STILL doesn't explain WHAT HAPPENED to the original energy emitted from the > electron. > > Can someone explain where it all went? > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com Of course, as my limited understanding of it from memories of my university days, the Bohr atom is a statistical model with the locations of the electrons given by a probability analysis ala Schroedinger, typically a second order differential equation similar to that for vibration and resonance analysis. The electron can be anywhere in this right circular cone/ semi-sphere with the vertix at the nucleus.....until you look! Accepting for the moment what Puthoff stated about electron behavior, then the electron is constantly losing energy to the surroundings equal, supposedly, to the energy it is gaining from the ZPE. Practitioners of thermo are always talking about vague things like the 'surroundings' as one of my old Professors, a Dr Thorne, used to talk about in my thermo class. When they are not talking about that, they are saying things like: "You never get out of a process what you put in!". The good doctor said a good deal more, but he was a brilliant man and it was difficult for we third year engineering students to follow him as we was always venturing into partial differential equations....a few courses above us... for proofs to his ideas. My humble take on it will be that the ZPE supplies the energy that keeps the universe running. If an electron loses an energy quanta, say 'e' whilst in orbit, then the ZPE supplies an energy (e + delta[e]) to keep it at or above ground state.....efficiencies approach unity assymptotically. This excess energy is not lost, however; and neither does it return to the ZPE. Therefore it must be lost to radiated heat or electrical energy potential however small. From this it then devolves that the ZPE is losing energy to all matter great and small. It also suggests an idea to extract energy in large amounts from the ZPE. That is to depress that electron and remove the ZPE energy as it appears, a process which may be more easily said than done unless this is just 'up his alley' for Randall Mills and his Black Light Power. Yep, the same site with all the slow downloading PDF's. There has to be a limit for ZPE extraction, else black holes could not exist. At least not stable ones. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 2 21:57:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j734vIlA031437; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:57:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j734vGbt031422; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:57:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:57:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F04E9B.1040409 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:56:59 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense References: <48vheq$12n4ovr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> <200508030021.23229.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200508030021.23229.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven You've missed a vital point of Hal 's work he argues that the energy emited is ZPE and that an orbiting electron is both a sorce and sink for ZPE. Its got more complex since then. See: http://www.calphysics.org/research.html and http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html >On Monday 25 July 2005 16:06, orionworks charter.net wrote: > > >> >>Never the less there remains, in my view, a HUGE unsolved mystery: >> >>If energy is being "emitted" only to be re-supplied by ZPE fluctuation that >>STILL doesn't explain WHAT HAPPENED to the original energy emitted from the >>electron. >> >>Can someone explain where it all went? >> >>Regards, >>Steven Vincent Johnson >>www.OrionWorks.com >> >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 06:39:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73DcaSv030380; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:38:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73DcYFI030344; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:38:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:38:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=blRlbQO/nGsVwiR+3cHlbWoh0UhP8SIkmOzJq4jmbVoE1wgpEJSPA3bjnq3hmZ1N; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005833123821570 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re; Chimney/Stack Effect & Hurricanes/Vortices Etc. Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:38:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94047640dead2cd5f01e13aa894ff2b7940350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.50 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No wonder Thunder Clouds form so fast on hot humid days. Looks like hose Solar "Stack" Power generators would work better with Water Injection. Psychrometric Calculator: http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm Sea Level 170-165 (db- wb) 88.74% RH 24.98 ft^3/lb 445.86 btu/lb 100-99 96.48% RH 15.06 ft^3/lb 69.95 btu/lb 190 160 49.56% RH 24 ft^3/lb 376 btu/lb 180 150 49% RH 21.4 ft^3/lb 275 btu/lb 170 140 46% RH 19.6ft^/lb 205 btu/lb 100 70 21.67% RH 14.32 ft^3/lb 33.81 btu/lb 100 ft Elevation 170 165 88.74% 25.13 ft^3/lb 448.15 btu/lb 190 160 49.57% 24.11 ft^3/lb 377.55 btu/lb 180 150 47.82% 21.5 ft^3/lb 275.72 btu/lb 170 140 45.92% 19.66 ft^3/lb 205.74 btu/lb 100 70 21.73% 14.37 ft^3/lb 33.88 btu/lb 1000 ft Elevation 170 165 88.76% 26.46 ft^3/lb 469.74 btu/lb 190 160 49.64% 25.31 ft^3/lb 394.38 btu/lb 180 150 47.9% 22.46 ft^3/lb 286.5 btu/lb 170 140 46% 20.5 ft^3/lb 212.89 btu/lb 100 70 22.27% 14.86 ft^3/lb 34.46 btu/lb 5000 ft Elevation 170 165 88.83% 33.94 ft^3/lb 591.13 btu/lb 190 160 49.91% 31.89 ft^3/lb 487 btu/lb 180 150 48.21% 27.6 ft^3/lb 343.83 btu/lb 170 140 46.4% 24.74 ft^3/lb 250.34 btu/lb 100 70 24.5% 17.29 ft^3/lb 37.39 btu/lb ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
No wonder Thunder Clouds form so fast on hot humid days. 
 
Looks like hose Solar "Stack" Power generators would work better with Water Injection.
 
 Psychrometric Calculator:

http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm

Sea Level                                170-165 (db- wb)  88.74% RH 24.98 ft^3/lb 445.86 btu/lb

                                                     100-99 96.48% RH 15.06 ft^3/lb  69.95 btu/lb

190 160 49.56% RH 24 ft^3/lb 376 btu/lb          

180 150 49% RH 21.4 ft^3/lb 275 btu/lb

170 140 46% RH 19.6ft^/lb 205 btu/lb

100 70 21.67% RH  14.32 ft^3/lb 33.81 btu/lb

 

100 ft Elevation                     170 165 88.74% 25.13 ft^3/lb 448.15 btu/lb

190 160 49.57% 24.11 ft^3/lb 377.55 btu/lb

180 150 47.82% 21.5 ft^3/lb 275.72 btu/lb

170 140 45.92% 19.66 ft^3/lb 205.74 btu/lb

100 70 21.73% 14.37 ft^3/lb 33.88 btu/lb

1000 ft Elevation                 170 165 88.76% 26.46 ft^3/lb 469.74 btu/lb

190 160 49.64% 25.31 ft^3/lb 394.38 btu/lb

180 150 47.9% 22.46 ft^3/lb 286.5 btu/lb

170 140 46% 20.5 ft^3/lb 212.89 btu/lb

100 70 22.27% 14.86 ft^3/lb 34.46 btu/lb

5000 ft Elevation                  170 165 88.83% 33.94 ft^3/lb 591.13 btu/lb

190 160 49.91% 31.89 ft^3/lb 487 btu/lb

180 150 48.21% 27.6 ft^3/lb 343.83 btu/lb

170 140 46.4% 24.74 ft^3/lb 250.34 btu/lb

100 70 24.5% 17.29 ft^3/lb 37.39 btu/lb

 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 08:13:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73FDAD6021355; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:13:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73FD81k021329; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:13:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:13:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <440397$h27dhd mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,163,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="572765741:sNHT16960284" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:12:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Wesley Bruce ... > Steven You've missed a vital point of Hal 's work he argues that > the energy emited is ZPE and that an orbiting electron is both a > sorce and sink for ZPE. Its got more complex since then. See: > http://www.calphysics.org/research.html > and > http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html I read both articles with some interest. Much of what was discussed has been described in countless articles in regards to "quantum fluctuations" and ZPE fields. Much of it is indeed fascinating. The most intriguing speculation concerns the property of "inertia" and the possibility that it is a product of matter interacting with ZPE fields. The theory goes on to speculate that if one can determine some kind of an asymmetric relationship in the underlying fabric of space then it might eventually be possible to design a cheap and affordable space propulsion mechanism instead of the current highly inefficient method of carrying a boatload of rocks onboard that must be constantly thrown away in order to create the famous Newtonian action-reaction phenomenon. After all, as spectacular as it might be to watch the intense orange flames shoot out from a shuttle launch one can only carry so many rocks. Incidentally this brings up intriguing research that has been performed on the "LIFTER" project (Brownian motion) as presented at Naudin's web site as well as at Antyigravity.com. See Antigravity at: http://tinyurl.com/dwa92 Or Naudin's at: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm Unfortunately, as best as I can tell, the best evidence seems to suggest that Lifter "thrust" is a manifestation of its interaction with the surrounding atmosphere and not from the quantum ZPE fabric itself. I may be wrong on this point as there has been some evidence to suggest the possibility that that a small percentage of the "thrust" may actually be due to this ZPE interaction. I thought I read an article where they had attempted to measure lifter thrust within a vacuum chamber and that a tiny amount of force was actually measured, but I can't recall where I read this from. (Might have even been in an earlier edition of I.E. Magazine.) In any case I believe that at present the current evidence seems to point to prosaic explanations. Unfortunately, neither essay explains, at least from my perspective, why one doesn't observe (measure) energy being radiated away from the orbiting hydrogen electrons. It seems almost too pat an explanation that the orbiting electron acts as a "sink". Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 09:06:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73G6B2e023637; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:06:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73G66MV023569; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:06:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:06:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Rq1CwzPIziC/85NGm+7L2iQIJFWvVoXFX4kf0qxiNsNaRMnDYrdeIjooOTs4nfc8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200583315449380 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "Wesley Bruce" , "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Chimney/Stack Effect Low Grade Heat Power Generation Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:04:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404e3868b7dcaf7b7d6b72f253a168c9bd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.224 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Wesley. Number crunching the Psyche Calculator and the Steam Tables indicates that a Hermetically Sealed-Gas Pressurized Electrolysis Cell- Heat Pipe operating at 400 K ~ 250 F (30 PSIA) rejecting heat at 320 K ~120 F could muster a 20% Carnot Efficiency using sealed in axial flow turbine-generator. One might get 10% or better, overall power generation efficiency if there is enough OU heat to do it. OTOH, a Chimney/Stack Effect turbine-generator might do it or run on solar or other low grade waste heat. >From the Psychrometric Calculator: http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm Sea Level 70 F 50% RH 13.53 ft^3/lb 25.33 btu/lb 5% RH 13.38 ft^3/lb 17.64 btu/lb 190 F 5% RH 16.93 ft^3/lb 69.11 btu/lb 90% RH 38.56 ft^3/lb 1009.57 btu/lb 100 ft Elevation 70 F 50% RH 13.58 ft^3/lb 25.36 btu/lb 5% RH 13.43 ft^3/lb 17.65 btu/lb 190 F 5% RH 16.99 ft^3/lb 69.2 btu/lb 90% RH 38.89 ft^3/lb 1017.7 btu/lb 1000 ft Elevation 70 F 50% RH 14.03 ft^3/lb 25.65 btu/lb 5% RH 13.87 ft^3/lb 17.67 btu/lb 190 F 5% RH 17.57 ft^3/lb 69.99 btu/lb 90% RH 42.04 ft^3/lb 1096.32 btu/lb 5000 ft Elevation 70 F 50% RH 16.3 ft^3/lb 27.07 btu/lb 70 F 5% RH 16.08 ft^3/lb 17.81 btu/lb 190 F 5% RH 20.47 ft^3/lb 73.99 btu/lb 190 F 90% RH 63.48ft^3/lb 1630.2 btu/lb 10000 ft elevation 70 F 50% RH 19.8 ft^3/lb 29.27 btu/lb 70 F 5% RH 19.48 ft^3/lb 18.03 btu/lb 190 F 5% RH 25.0 ft^3/lb 80.2 btu/lb 90% RH 143.47 ft^3/lb 3619.59 btu/lb Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Wesley.

Number crunching the Psyche Calculator and the Steam Tables indicates that

a Hermetically Sealed-Gas Pressurized Electrolysis Cell- Heat Pipe operating

at 400 K ~ 250 F (30 PSIA) rejecting heat at 320 K ~120 F could muster

a 20% Carnot Efficiency using sealed in axial flow turbine-generator.

One might get 10% or better, overall power generation efficiency if

there is enough OU heat to do it.

OTOH, a Chimney/Stack Effect turbine-generator might do it or run on solar or

other low grade waste heat.

From the Psychrometric Calculator:

http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm

Sea Level

70 F  50% RH  13.53 ft^3/lb 25.33 btu/lb

5% RH 13.38 ft^3/lb 17.64 btu/lb

190 F  5% RH 16.93 ft^3/lb 69.11 btu/lb

90% RH 38.56 ft^3/lb 1009.57 btu/lb

100 ft Elevation

70 F  50% RH 13.58 ft^3/lb 25.36 btu/lb

5% RH  13.43 ft^3/lb 17.65 btu/lb

190 F 5% RH 16.99 ft^3/lb 69.2 btu/lb

90% RH 38.89 ft^3/lb 1017.7 btu/lb

1000 ft Elevation

70 F 50% RH 14.03 ft^3/lb 25.65 btu/lb

5% RH 13.87 ft^3/lb 17.67 btu/lb

190 F 5% RH 17.57 ft^3/lb 69.99 btu/lb

90% RH 42.04 ft^3/lb 1096.32 btu/lb

5000 ft Elevation

70 F 50% RH 16.3 ft^3/lb 27.07 btu/lb

70 F  5% RH  16.08 ft^3/lb 17.81 btu/lb

190 F  5% RH 20.47 ft^3/lb 73.99 btu/lb

190 F 90% RH 63.48ft^3/lb 1630.2 btu/lb

10000 ft elevation

70 F 50% RH 19.8 ft^3/lb 29.27 btu/lb

70 F  5% RH  19.48 ft^3/lb 18.03 btu/lb

190 F 5% RH 25.0 ft^3/lb 80.2 btu/lb

90% RH 143.47 ft^3/lb 3619.59 btu/lb

Frederick

 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 09:47:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73GkTg9016421; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:46:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73GkQwk016370; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:46:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:46:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5984a$fc4c7c40$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <440397$h27dhd mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Hydrogen enegetics Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:47:05 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: After my suggestion to Svein I decided to revisit my plasma experimemts and burn the produced hydrogen in an arc along the lines Bertho is investigating. My plasma generator (the protype is in the photos on JLN's yahoo group) produces 2H2 O2 mixed in a forced flow design with NaOH electrolyte- the prototype used thermosyphon circulation. The problem I need to reduce the oxygen content below stoichiometric to leave some hydrogen for the atomic reaction . Can anyone suggest any simple way ? I think I will have limited success diverting some of the flow past the anode to a seperate outlet, but the flow is quite turbulent in this region with a lot of mixing going on and this solution requires some redesign of the reactor. Thanks for your input JohnH From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 10:00:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73H05hG024808; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:00:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73Gu3K8022577; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:56:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:56:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:55:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050803165533.KZSZ3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > Unfortunately, as best as I can tell, the best evidence seems to suggest that Lifter "thrust" is a manifestation of its interaction with the surrounding atmosphere and not from the quantum ZPE fabric itself. No, there are several experiments which show that the effect is not atmospheric ionization thrust. See: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/perf.htm where lifters are made from voltage sources within a vacuum and lifters in totally enclosed boxes. AAMOF, NASA has blatently stolen the TT Brown concept in their patent #6,317,310 as a method of orbital spacecraft control. See: http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue45/thelifterphen.html about halfway down the page. The asymmetrical capacitor results in a curled electric field which can likely be shown to be interacting with the aether, beta atm, space, gravity, or something. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 10:09:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73H8MeS029988; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:08:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73H8KRe029971; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:08:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:08:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c5984d$56e0bd40$d0bcfea9 jb4> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <440397$h27dhd mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> <000e01c5984a$fc4c7c40$0201a8c0@default> Subject: Re: Hydrogen enegetics Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:03:57 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Harris" > The problem > I need to reduce the oxygen content below stoichiometric to leave some > hydrogen for the atomic reaction . Can anyone suggest any simple way ? Gore-Tex Gore-Tex will pass all of the hydrogen immediately but only some of the oxygen (actually it will pass the O2 eventually but at a much slower rate, so you need to set it up as a filtering system). It might take two or more layers to get to the ratio you want - so you will have to work by trial and error. The Gore company also makes dedicated proton membranes, for which you will pay approximately 500 times more for almost the same thing with a few milligrams of Pd added.. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 10:17:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73HGYRT003015; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:16:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73HGU3M002959; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:16:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:16:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c5984f$36c8e120$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <440397$h27dhd mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> <000e01c5984a$fc4c7c40$0201a8c0@default> <001301c5984d$56e0bd40$d0bcfea9@jb4> Subject: Re: Hydrogen enegetics Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:17:22 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <8UHTyD.A.Hu.tvP8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Jones I will Investigate. That looks Ideal JohnH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Hydrogen enegetics > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Harris" > > > The problem > > I need to reduce the oxygen content below stoichiometric > to leave some > > hydrogen for the atomic reaction . Can anyone suggest any > simple way ? > > Gore-Tex > > Gore-Tex will pass all of the hydrogen immediately but only > some of the oxygen (actually it will pass the O2 eventually > but at a much slower rate, so you need to set it up as a > filtering system). It might take two or more layers to get > to the ratio you want - so you will have to work by trial > and error. The Gore company also makes dedicated proton > membranes, for which you will pay approximately 500 times > more for almost the same thing with a few milligrams of Pd > added.. > > Jones > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 10:26:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73HPNbp008208; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:25:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73HPK3b008154; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:25:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:25:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Hydrogen enegetics Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:24:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050803172449.LMWR3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > The Gore company also makes dedicated proton > membranes, for which you will pay approximately 500 times > more for almost the same thing with a few milligrams of Pd > added.. Is their application for fuel cells? If so, who is using their product? An amusing anecdote re Gore. They are known for their unconventional organization. At one time, everyone was called an associate with no other titles (could still be). Anyway, one purchasing agent was having trouble dealing with a conventionally organized company who absolutely insisted that she provide her company title. So, she had business cards printed with the title beneath her name, "Supreme Commander". Amusing because, in our consulting firm, we were asked what title we wished on our business cards. I responded in kind and was asked to pay for the reprint without the word "Supreme". ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 10:56:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73HtG5V027929; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:55:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73Ht9tT027867; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:55:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:55:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c59853$e2372720$d0bcfea9 jb4> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050803172449.LMWR3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Hydrogen enegetics Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:50:48 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" aka "Sub-Commander Supremo" > > The Gore company also makes dedicated proton > > membranes, for which you will pay approximately 500 times > > more for almost the same thing with a few milligrams of Pd > > added.. > > Is their application for fuel cells? If so, who is using their product? Me, at one time ;-) .... but there must be a few others.... http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/electronic/fuelcells/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 12:05:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73J4dxe007494; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:04:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73J4bH6007449; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:04:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:04:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:03:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense In-reply-to: <200508030021.23229.rockcast earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <3E920D.A.K0B.DVR8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I noticed you placed quotation marks around the term accelerating. It may well be that the electron is NOT accelerating in the sense of mechanics which PRESUMES all acceleration is indicative of a "smoking gun" i.e. an external force. Harry >> >> Putoff's theory, on the surface, possesses an elegant symmetry to it, not >> that I'm really in a position to challenge it. There remains, however, a >> nagging question that gnaws at me. >> >> According to my own provincial understanding of QM theory it's considered >> somewhat of an embarrassment that the electron doesn't seem to collapse >> into the nucleus of the hydrogen atom - due to the fact that it should be >> emanating energy - due to the fact that it is costantly 'accelerating' >> around the hydrogen nucleus. Clearly, this ain't happening! >> >> Now, according to Putoff's model, ZPE fluctuations, more or less, >> instantaneously re-supply the departing energy that according to QM should >> be emanating from the orbiting electron. IOW, ZPE fluctuations conveniently >> prevent the orbiting electron from collapsing into the nucleus, which >> incidentally saves the universe as a secondary benefit. >> >> Never the less there remains, in my view, a HUGE unsolved mystery: >> >> If energy is being "emitted" only to be re-supplied by ZPE fluctuation that >> STILL doesn't explain WHAT HAPPENED to the original energy emitted from the >> electron. >> >> Can someone explain where it all went? >> >> Regards, >> Steven Vincent Johnson >> www.OrionWorks.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 12:32:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73JVmTl025364; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:32:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73JVk0m025340; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:31:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:31:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050803152627.044bbeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:31:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Printing paperback copies of "Cold Fusion And The Future" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am printing some paperback copies of "Cold Fusion and the Future." These are black and white, 5.5 x 8.5 inches, 255 pages, $8. These are a lot cheaper than the big ones, and cheaper than printing the whole book yourself. If anyone would like 10 or more copies, please contact me directly by e-mail soon and I will order extra ones. The book has been moderately successful. People have downloaded 4400 copies since December. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 12:52:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73JppBb004055; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:52:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73Jpovb004046; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:51:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:51:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Aluminum battery? Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:51:23 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509AA4ABB CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Aluminum battery? Thread-Index: AcWYZLo24lNfdYAKSyaJMxWmmvqJ4A== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 19:51:26.0964 (UTC) FILETIME=[BC160B40:01C59864] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j73JpUIt003845 Resent-Message-ID: <8Mn1gB.A.K_.WBS8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anybody know anything about a Finnish inventor named Rainer Partanen? ( www.europositron.com) He claims to have developed a way to make Aluminum batteries completely rechargeable. Unfortunately, the prospective patents are in Finnish. I'd be interested in what sort of electrochemical process he's using. If true, this one battery could change human history . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 13:12:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73KBoJ3016214; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:12:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73KBiTA016171; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:11:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:09:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense In-reply-to: <200508030021.23229.rockcast earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2B4wmD.A.e8D.AUS8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I noticed you placed quotation marks around the term accelerating. It may well be that the electron is NOT accelerating in the sense of mechanics which PRESUMES all acceleration is indicative of a "smoking gun" i.e. an external force. Harry >> >> Putoff's theory, on the surface, possesses an elegant symmetry to it, not >> that I'm really in a position to challenge it. There remains, however, a >> nagging question that gnaws at me. >> >> According to my own provincial understanding of QM theory it's considered >> somewhat of an embarrassment that the electron doesn't seem to collapse >> into the nucleus of the hydrogen atom - due to the fact that it should be >> emanating energy - due to the fact that it is costantly 'accelerating' >> around the hydrogen nucleus. Clearly, this ain't happening! >> >> Now, according to Putoff's model, ZPE fluctuations, more or less, >> instantaneously re-supply the departing energy that according to QM should >> be emanating from the orbiting electron. IOW, ZPE fluctuations conveniently >> prevent the orbiting electron from collapsing into the nucleus, which >> incidentally saves the universe as a secondary benefit. >> >> Never the less there remains, in my view, a HUGE unsolved mystery: >> >> If energy is being "emitted" only to be re-supplied by ZPE fluctuation that >> STILL doesn't explain WHAT HAPPENED to the original energy emitted from the >> electron. >> >> Can someone explain where it all went? >> >> Regards, >> Steven Vincent Johnson >> www.OrionWorks.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 13:32:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73KVuB6000372; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:32:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73KVsLk000331; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:31:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:31:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <44038l$19kgl80 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,164,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1397249280:sNHT17251460" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:31:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Harry Veeder > I noticed you placed quotation marks around the term accelerating. > > It may well be that the electron is NOT accelerating in the sense of > mechanics which PRESUMES all acceleration is indicative of a > "smoking gun" i.e. an external force. > > Harry Hi Harry, Indeed, I gather there remains a continuing debate concerning the definitions of "acceleration" versus "gravity" - are they truly the exact same phenomenon or not. The clearest definition I can think of that clearly reveals this paradox is Einstein's famous Elevator in Space think piece, the visualization that was later turned into a rocket ship traveling through space. If the spaceship was blessed with an unlimited fuel supply allowing it to constantly accelerate an individual within would find the effects of acceleration and gravity indistinguishable from each other, particularly if he had no outside windows in which to view potential external reference points. What is even more amazing about this experiment is that if a beam of light were shot horizontally across the room from one wall to the opposite side the observer would detect a slight bend in the light towards the direction of the ground. It would appear to this observer that the beam of light is BENDING. Any observer within this confined rocket ship room would interpret this light bending phenomenon as implying that some kind of "external force" must have influenced the beam ! of the light causing it to bend towards the ground in the same manner that throwing a ball across the same room causes it to assume the trajectory of a parabolic curve towards the ground. The puzzle, according to my very simple & prosaic understanding of Einstein's perceptions of acceleration versus gravity, is that there really isn't a "force" influencing the beam of light, nor any solid object for that matter that might also be thrown across the room. What's really happening (according to my understanding) is that the beam of light (and all solid objects for that matter) are simply moving through the fabric of 3D space, that in this example is flat. This is easy to comprehend when using the rocket ship analogy in which the visual manifestation of acceleration is clearly observable as the ship continues to accelerate as perceived by an observer outside of the rocket ship. What is NOT so easy to comprehend is the so-called effects of "acceleration" as it applies to a large mass like our planet Earth. In those cases we call the phenomenon the influence of "gravity" as compared to "acceleration." We have very simple mathematical formulas that predict how the phenomenon of "gravity" behaves - the square of the distance being one of the primary ones. However, a beam of light bends around the influence of gravity (like our Earth or Sun) in exactly the same way it would behave if the beam of light were beamed horizontally across the room within the windowless room of the rocket ship. This brings up the interesting conundrum from my perspective as to whether the phenomenon we perceive and label as "gravity" really exists in the first place. I'm under the current impression that it might be considered a gross misinterpretation, and illusion I might say, to perceive "gravity" as INFLUENCING any solid object or beam of light. It seems to make more sense from my perspective to simply call "gravity" another characteristic of the phenomenon we readily understand as "acceleration" as it applies to 3D space volume curvatures. The rocket ship reveals the simple effects of "acceleration" as it applies to a 1 dimensional space. In 3D volumetric space the effect can be perceived in the same manner as how a fixed volume of water is forced to flow through a funnel. As individual water molecules slowly approach the narrowing bottom spout of the funnel they are forced to "accelerate" faster and faster as they are forced to travel more quickly through a confined volume of space. It's the classic fire hose effect. It seems to me that the surface of a large planetary body, like our Earth or Sun, is treating "acceleration" in the exact same matter, where 3D volume space is in a sense being squeezed. In order to compensate for this squeezing effect objects "accelerate" faster at the surface than they would if dropped hundreds if not thousands of miles above the planetary surface - where 3D space isn't squeezed as much. The above analogy may not explain or prove the effects ZPE as suggested by Puthoff, other than the fact that it doesn't appear to contradict the assumption that a solid object that is being accelerated feels the effect of "gravity/acceleration" - which is theorized to be due to the object passing through ZPE space. On the other hand, my "clarification" might possibly help point out what I suspect could be a metaphorical trap of falling into a gravity well of illusory effects which I suspect many individuals innocently make. Their ensnarement within the gravity well of illusory effects may be hampering the next epiphany that awaits them just around the corner. Regarding epiphanies, well, I'm waiting for one as well! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 14:26:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73LPqAl027573; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:26:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73LPnXF027537; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:25:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Aluminum battery? Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:25:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050803212528.QGTK3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Zell, Chris" > Unfortunately, the > prospective patents are in Finnish. This article: http://www.batteriesdigest.com/id301.htm suggests you look at US patent #6,482,548 as a reference. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 14:43:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73Lghps003203; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:42:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73LgcNK003133; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:42:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:42:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Aluminum battery? Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:42:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050803214211.QNJY3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton> This article: > > http://www.batteriesdigest.com/id301.htm > > suggests you look at US patent #6,482,548 as a reference. Geeze, I finally read this in detail. It makes a case for shipping electricity by boat! Jones, here's the solution for your sea-based laddermill. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 14:58:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73LvhUr011084; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:58:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73Lvgsv011073; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:57:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:57:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:56:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Aluminum battery? In-reply-to: <20050803214211.QNJY3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Electricity is used to make pure aluminium ingots from aluminium oxide, so the ingots effectively represent stored electrical energy. An aluminium battery would produce electricity by reversing the process. What I heard is that recharging an aluminium battery means replacing the aluminium oxide with a fresh ingot of aluminium. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 15:06:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73M5cAd014390; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:05:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73M5bHV014375; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:05:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:05:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Sing the Comet Electric Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:05:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050803220512.QVPZ3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Someone is sealing my titles :-) http://www.wired.com/news/space/0%2C2697%2C68258-2%2C00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 15:44:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73Mi8We029782; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:44:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73Mi75V029767; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:44:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:44:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050803183217.044b3060 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:40:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Printing paperback copies of "Cold Fusion And The Future" In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050803152627.044bbeb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050803152627.044bbeb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8kXACD.A.8QH.2iU8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's $8 including shipping. I cannot really afford to give a price break, unless someone wants 100 or so. The next price break for me is 300 units and I doubt I will have any use for that many copies in this lifetime. My cost is $8.33, including the bubble mailer from Office Depot. How do I do it? It's all volume. (That must be the oldest business joke in the U.S.) It is rather strange trying to sell a book that not copyright and is freely available on the Internet. It reminds me of the Zen parable about selling water by the river. Perhaps some sort of marketing synergy will emerge, with the free giveaway e-book encouraging people to buy the printed paperback version just for convenience. In software we accomplish something similar by giving out limited, demo versions of products. By the way, if you want to print something, I recommend this company: http://www.instantpublisher.com/ Nice people, fast work. You can spec out a price here, which is sorta fun: http://www.instantpublisher.com/pricing.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 16:13:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73NDLp7007825; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:13:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73NDJHc007809; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:13:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:13:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <49jvrm$fohoi mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: Subject: Re: Printing paperback copies of "Cold Fusion And The Future" Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:12:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Can you clarify: What would it cost an individual to puchase a single hardcopy book from you? This wasn't clear to me as you seem to be giving prices for purchasing in quantities of 100 or so. Obviously, purchasing a single book should cost more. What's a fair individual unit price that compensates you and your labor? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > From: Jed Rothwell > That's $8 including shipping. I cannot really afford to give a price break, > unless someone wants 100 or so. The next price break for me is 300 units > and I doubt I will have any use for that many copies in this lifetime. > > My cost is $8.33, including the bubble mailer from Office Depot. How do I > do it? It's all volume. (That must be the oldest business joke in the U.S.) > > It is rather strange trying to sell a book that not copyright and is freely > available on the Internet. It reminds me of the Zen parable about selling > water by the river. Perhaps some sort of marketing synergy will emerge, > with the free giveaway e-book encouraging people to buy the printed > paperback version just for convenience. In software we accomplish something > similar by giving out limited, demo versions of products. > > By the way, if you want to print something, I recommend this company: > > http://www.instantpublisher.com/ > > Nice people, fast work. You can spec out a price here, which is sorta fun: > > http://www.instantpublisher.com/pricing.htm > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 16:47:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j73NkDZp019881; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:46:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j73NkC61019862; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:46:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:46:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050803193605.044b48c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:45:48 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Printing paperback copies of "Cold Fusion And The Future" In-Reply-To: <49jvrm$fohoi mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <49jvrm$fohoi mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You wrote: >Can you clarify: > >What would it cost an individual to puchase a single hardcopy book from you? Eight bucks. 10 for $80. Or as the great Robert Johnson put it: She got two for a nickel, got four for a dime. Would sell you more, but they ain't none of mine. Hot tamales and they red hot, yes, she got 'em for sale, I mean. Yes, she got 'em for sale. - "They're Red Hot," 1936 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 17:58:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j740wBWp021487; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:58:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j740w63n021458; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:58:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:58:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050802153520.044b25c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20050802191749.ZUBZ12809.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050802153520.044b25c0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:57:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Terry Blanton wrote: > >>This is somewhat alarming news: >> And Jed Rothwell replied; >My guess is that this is caused by global warming. In that case, we >have nothing to worry about. The Greening Earth Society assures us >that global warming will be good for both man and nature. This brings to mind the story of the X class flares on the Sun. I assume that X class flares are really big ones. IMHO, they and the undersea volcanos account for most of the global warming. Someone called C to C AM and mentioned that said that the official temperature is lower than the real one. I was working by a mercury thermometer today. The radio station reported a temperature, which I assume they got from the weather service which was 8 degrees F lower than the one I observed. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 19:17:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j742H6cJ028193; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:17:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j742H51m028174; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:17:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:17:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5989a$8a55c6f0$49027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:16:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C59870.9F08A470"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C59870.9F08A470 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C59870.9F0A2B10" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C59870.9F0A2B10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThomas Malloy wrote.. > I was working by a mercury=20 thermometer today. The radio station reported a temperature, which I=20 assume they got from the weather service which was 8 degrees F lower=20 than the one I observed. Thomas, One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten agreement = between the weather bureau and the local chamber of commence. It's all = about tourism and keeping the temperature statistics as " average" as = they can stretch the truth. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C59870.9F0A2B10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Thomas Malloy wrote..

> I was working by a mercury
thermometer today. The radio = station=20 reported a temperature, which I
assume they got from the weather = service=20 which was 8 degrees F lower
than the one I observed.

Thomas,  One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten = agreement=20 between the weather bureau and the local chamber of commence. It's all = about=20 tourism and keeping the temperature statistics as " = average" as they=20 can stretch the truth.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C59870.9F0A2B10-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C59870.9F08A470 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5989a$87a32a10$49027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C59870.9F08A470-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 23:27:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j746QUd7002071; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:26:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j746QSKU002037; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:26:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:26:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:26:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42f1b501.3201.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.134 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >BlankThomas Malloy wrote.. >> I was working by a mercury >thermometer today. The radio station reported a temperature, which I >assume they got from the weather service which was 8 degrees F lower >than the one I observed. > And Richard replied; >Thomas, One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten agreement >between the weather bureau and the local chamber of commence. It's all >about tourism and keeping the temperature statistics as " average" as >they can stretch the truth. I wonder if this fudging of the temperature is reflected in the weather stastictics? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 01:14:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j748DkeH022080; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:14:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j748Di1k022051; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD2F8 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: uoting from the Re: Ed's Storms hope Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:02:13 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j748DLtc021766 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Wesley, It's nice to know we are part of this rather than having to be led down the path by the worlds power brokers. Do you know of anyone here in Perth that is involved in this work? I'd love to be involved even just as an advocate to change or in the promotion of these essential technologies. Kind Regards, John Rudiger Perth WA Ph:- 08 9232 7150 Fax:- 08 9232 7155 -----Original Message----- From: Wesley Bruce [mailto:wesleybruce iinet.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:29 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: uoting from the Re: Ed's Storms hope Black light powers Randell Mills is very smart he went around the US patent embargo by filing in Australia. Aussy's will rule the global; energy market. Now if I could only convince a few other Aussys, including the PM that Its real. RC Macaulay wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote.. > > > > >MC: I repeat. BlackLight Power is making all the noises and signals of an > enterprise getting ready to get out of the egg stage > > >BlackLight Power’s commercialization strategy is to nonexclusively > license joint-venture companies (JVS) to develop, make, use, or sell its > patented and patent-pending technology in any field any where in the > world. > These independent JVCs will invest the capital and time to develop > commercial applications of the BlackLight Process. New patented > technologies > resulting from development of commercial products or processes by the JVC > will be the property of the JVC. New patented technologies developed by > BlackLight after the purchase of a license will be added to the original > license. The license agreements will be offered for an annual maintenance > fee and a minority equity position in the licensed, JVC. Companies with > relevant capabilities or interest in developing new products or > valuable new > patented technology will require a license and are encouraged to > contact us. > > Richard writes.. > > Mike..thoughtful comments. > > Black Light Power has put a viable " package " together and > sustained it for some 15 years which is saying something for an > enterprise principally in the business of selling ideas to investors. > > Over that same period of time (15 years) ,one small manufacturing > company I know of, designed and built a series of technically > sophisicated products with the beginning capital derived from the > monthly charitable gift awarded social security retirees. From that > base , as the venture grew, the research budget rose to a paltry 350k > per year ( 30,000 per month). This tiny company now leads in their > market category and has obsoleted an entire segment of the existing > methodology in it's industry category dominated by two large world > renowned corporations.. The company is privately owned and never once > operated in the red. This tiny company holds no patents, has no > intellectual property and has no protection from another company that > may wish to"copy" the product designs. The thinking being that a > patent is an invitation to a lawsuit. A trademark and a copyright > holds more weight. The secret is in the "name" and not in the patented > product. > > I once knew a guy with a wonderful idea of raising bullfrogs in a > pond under a natural gas flare. The business model demonstrated a frog > lays umteen millions eggs, from that the math get fuzzy but the gist > is that one can harvest a million frog legs a month at a dollar a > dozen. He tried to liscense the idea to me on a royalty base plus > cash. When asked why he didn't take the idea and run with it for that > kind of profit, his reply was that he was too busy with his job at the > carwash. > > The business plan of BLP is an interesting study of the corresponding > and divergent views of different business models. I wish them success > because ,if they have the product they represent as having ,the world > is going to steal them blind by their using the marketing approach > they have embarked upon. > > Richard > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 06:18:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74DHQoA028767; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:17:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74DHGLZ028592; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:17:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:17:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Aluminum battery? Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:16:41 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509AA4CCC CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Aluminum battery? Thread-Index: AcWYdn3JpkYuWUI6QWKdpDblbMnPRAAf+9uA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 13:16:45.0014 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2F4FF60:01C598F6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j74DGnNc028054 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That was the original idea with such batteries in electric cars - inconvenient, messy, and stands no chance of overcoming gasoline powered Engines. The Finnish invention claims to actually be rechargeable, like lead acid. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 6:57 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aluminum battery? Electricity is used to make pure aluminium ingots from aluminium oxide, so the ingots effectively represent stored electrical energy. An aluminium battery would produce electricity by reversing the process. What I heard is that recharging an aluminium battery means replacing the aluminium oxide with a fresh ingot of aluminium. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 06:40:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74DduYW007786; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:40:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74DdraB007758; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:39:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:39:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F21A97.6050504 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 23:39:35 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense References: <440397$h27dhd mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <440397$h27dhd mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j74DdXCK007604 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The only place we can really test whether a lifter works in vacuum is in orbit. The metallic environment of most vacuum chambers may create an electrostatic force interaction that either negates the effect or creates the illusion of an effect in vacuum when there is no effect at all. We have got to get a tiny lifter to the space station and have someone throw it out the air lock and power it up for a while and see where it goes and how fast it accelerates. It needs to be light 30 grams or less but large enough, several meters, to be track able. The system of ground radars that tracks space junk may not be able track such a small craft. A mirror on the thing so a ladar on the station can track it is one option. A GPS relay chip is another. orionworks charter.net wrote: >>From: Wesley Bruce >> >> >... > > >>Steven You've missed a vital point of Hal 's work he argues that >>the energy emited is ZPE and that an orbiting electron is both a >>sorce and sink for ZPE. Its got more complex since then. See: >>http://www.calphysics.org/research.html >>and >>http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html >> >> > > >I read both articles with some interest. Much of what was discussed has been described in countless articles in regards to "quantum fluctuations" and ZPE fields. Much of it is indeed fascinating. The most intriguing speculation concerns the property of "inertia" and the possibility that it is a product of matter interacting with ZPE fields. The theory goes on to speculate that if one can determine some kind of an asymmetric relationship in the underlying fabric of space then it might eventually be possible to design a cheap and affordable space propulsion mechanism instead of the current highly inefficient method of carrying a boatload of rocks onboard that must be constantly thrown away in order to create the famous Newtonian action-reaction phenomenon. After all, as spectacular as it might be to watch the intense orange flames shoot out from a shuttle launch one can only carry so many rocks. > >Incidentally this brings up intriguing research that has been performed on the "LIFTER" project (Brownian motion) as presented at Naudin's web site as well as at Antyigravity.com. > >See Antigravity at: http://tinyurl.com/dwa92 >Or Naudin's at: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm > >Unfortunately, as best as I can tell, the best evidence seems to suggest that Lifter "thrust" is a manifestation of its interaction with the surrounding atmosphere and not from the quantum ZPE fabric itself. I may be wrong on this point as there has been some evidence to suggest the possibility that that a small percentage of the "thrust" may actually be due to this ZPE interaction. I thought I read an article where they had attempted to measure lifter thrust within a vacuum chamber and that a tiny amount of force was actually measured, but I can't recall where I read this from. (Might have even been in an earlier edition of I.E. Magazine.) In any case I believe that at present the current evidence seems to point to prosaic explanations. > >Unfortunately, neither essay explains, at least from my perspective, why one doesn't observe (measure) energy being radiated away from the orbiting hydrogen electrons. It seems almost too pat an explanation that the orbiting electron acts as a "sink". > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 07:27:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74EQWUP001770; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:26:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74EQU2Z001753; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:26:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:26:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <42F1D469.702 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:40:09 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aluminum battery? References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509AA4ABB CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509AA4ABB CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's not even new. Aluminum air batteries have been around for a century but as they charge and discharge they form crystals in the electrolyte that short the cell out eventually. The solution is naopore polymer that allows free ion flow while preventing crystal formation. One company is already commercializing the solution. See: http://www.evionyx.com/components.htm Rainer Partanen may get a shock when he discovers the American patent. Zell, Chris wrote: >Anybody know anything about a Finnish inventor named Rainer Partanen? ( >www.europositron.com) He claims to have developed a way to make >Aluminum batteries completely rechargeable. Unfortunately, the >prospective patents are in Finnish. > >I'd be interested in what sort of electrochemical process he's using. >If true, this one battery could change human history . > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 07:49:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74EnKZW016203; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:49:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74EnJG7016189; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:49:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:49:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Aluminum battery? Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:48:57 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509AA4DB4 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Aluminum battery? Thread-Index: AcWZAKNmWduBQiIZSkCRHWvQBRl1QAAApwQg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 14:48:59.0016 (UTC) FILETIME=[A57AB080:01C59903] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j74En19X015999 Resent-Message-ID: <7eNEED.A.08D.vri8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't think aluminum air is rechargeable in any sense except physically removing the plates. Membranes are getting better but finding a room temperature Process for making electrolytic aluminum metal borders on the miraculous. -----Original Message----- From: Wesley Bruce [mailto:wesleybruce iinet.net.au] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 4:40 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aluminum battery? That's not even new. Aluminum air batteries have been around for a century but as they charge and discharge they form crystals in the electrolyte that short the cell out eventually. The solution is naopore polymer that allows free ion flow while preventing crystal formation. One company is already commercializing the solution. See: http://www.evionyx.com/components.htm Rainer Partanen may get a shock when he discovers the American patent. Zell, Chris wrote: >Anybody know anything about a Finnish inventor named Rainer Partanen? >( >www.europositron.com) He claims to have developed a way to make >Aluminum batteries completely rechargeable. Unfortunately, the >prospective patents are in Finnish. > >I'd be interested in what sort of electrochemical process he's using. >If true, this one battery could change human history . > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 08:11:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74FB79J001964; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:11:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74FB5Yh001917; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:11:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:11:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050804110521.044ca170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:10:31 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet In-Reply-To: <000c01c5989a$8a55c6f0$49027841 xptower> References: <000c01c5989a$8a55c6f0$49027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j74FAkvi001767 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >Thomas, One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten agreement between >the weather bureau and the local chamber of commence. It's all about >tourism and keeping the temperature statistics as " average" as they can >stretch the truth. That's preposterous. That is like suggesting that the people at the CDC would deliberately hide evidence of infectious disease. The people at the weather bureau are consummate professionals and they would never do anything to compromise their data. The locations they choose for their temperature sensors are carefully defined. They have to be a certain distance off the ground and away from roads and other high heat areas. If you take temperature readings at random spots around your neighborhood, you will see variations as large as 8°F. My house is generally much cooler than the official weather department temperature, because it is under tall trees. My automobile thermometer shows a huge variation depending on where I park it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 08:22:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74FLMcC007784; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:21:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74FLIlr007737; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:21:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:21:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:20:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42f23256.3ccf.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <37ATNC.A.14B.uJj8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I Posted, And Merlyn replied >Did the thermometer happen to be in sunlight? > >> >BlankThomas Malloy wrote.. >> >> I was working by a mercury >> >thermometer today. The radio station reported a >> temperature, which I >> >assume they got from the weather service which was >> 8 >> degrees F lower >> >than the one I observed. >> > No, the thermometer is located on the north side of the building, under an overhang. It has been suggested that the powers that be, are minimizing the effects of Global Warming. OTOH, I've seen the temperature go over 100 F this time of year. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 08:30:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74FU5HK013888; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:30:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74FTxXK013802; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:29:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:29:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Texas to Meet Renewable Goal Early Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:29:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050804152933.LPKN9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks mainly to the FPL wind project: http://www.puc.state.tx.us/nrelease/2005/021505.cfm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 09:08:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74G7QLs008868; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:07:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74G7PCT008858; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:07:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:07:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:07:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42f23d24.401a.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted >RC Macaulay wrote: > >>Thomas, One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten agreement between And Jed Rothwell replied > >That's preposterous. That is like suggesting that the people at the CDC >temperature, because it is under tall trees. My automobile thermometer >shows a huge variation depending on where I park it. Preposterous, was my reaction, if I hadn't seen this my self. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 09:59:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74Gwq2w010261; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:59:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74GwjT9010201; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:58:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:58:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008801c59915$ba73c780$b323010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: References: <20050804152933.LPKN9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Texas to Meet Renewable Goal Early Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:58:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Thanks mainly to the FPL wind project: > > http://www.puc.state.tx.us/nrelease/2005/021505.cfm When they deregulated energy back in 2000 in Texas, a new company started selling electricity in Texas called Green Mountain Energy. All of their energy which is sold in Texas comes from wind farms in west Texas. The demand for Green Mountain energy has been surprising. They have built additional wind farms since inception, and they are responsible for almost all of this renewable energy that's mentioned -- 96% it seems. >From my perspective, it's more anecdotal evidence of how the market can solve our energy problems if allowed to function. Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 10:39:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74Hcd61004775; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:38:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74HcbOZ004763; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:38:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:38:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:37:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: A page on the Sagnac effect In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Realistically, at least according to classical mechanics, the tick rate of a clock is bound to be affected by acceleration, unless the acceleration is part of the design of the clock as in a pendulum clock. Harry Chambers, Robert (UK) wrote: > >> (The "clocks hypothesis" has also been >> experimentally >> verified, by the way.) > > Slight glitch in the previous email - sorry! > > To continue... > > I found this on the clock hypothesis: > http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#5.%20Twin > %20paradox > "The clock hypothesis states that the tick rate of a clock when measured in an > inertial frame depends only upon its velocity relative to that frame, and is > independent of its acceleration or higher derivatives." > > Are we not dealing with an accelerated frame, rather than an inertial one, in > the Sagnac effect? > > Rob > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 10:46:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74HjYUP009109; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:45:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74HjVMl009057; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:45:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:45:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:44:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: correction/ A page on the Sagnac effect In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Realistically, at least according to classical mechanics, the tick rate > of a clock is bound to be affected by acceleration, unless the acceleration > is part of the design of the clock as in a pendulum clock. > > Harry sorry omit the last bit _as in a pendulum clock_. Realistically, at least according to classical mechanics, the tick rate of a clock is bound to be affected by acceleration, unless the acceleration is part of the design of the clock. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 10:55:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74Ht9TF014335; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:55:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74Ht87F014315; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:55:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:55:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:54:09 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescense In-reply-to: <44038l$19kgl80 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7ms32.A.ifD.7Zl8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >> From: Harry Veeder > >> I noticed you placed quotation marks around the term accelerating. >> >> It may well be that the electron is NOT accelerating in the sense of >> mechanics which PRESUMES all acceleration is indicative of a >> "smoking gun" i.e. an external force. >> >> Harry > > Hi Harry, > > Indeed, I gather there remains a continuing debate concerning the definitions > of "acceleration" versus "gravity" - are they truly the exact same phenomenon > or not. > > The clearest definition I can think of that clearly reveals this paradox is > Einstein's famous Elevator in Space think piece, the visualization that was > later turned into a rocket ship traveling through space. If the spaceship was > blessed with an unlimited fuel supply allowing it to constantly accelerate an > individual within would find the effects of acceleration and gravity > indistinguishable from each other, particularly if he had no outside windows > in which to view potential external reference points. What is even more > amazing about this experiment is that if a beam of light were shot > horizontally across the room from one wall to the opposite side the observer > would detect a slight bend in the light towards the direction of the ground. > It would appear to this observer that the beam of light is BENDING. Any > observer within this confined rocket ship room would interpret this light > bending phenomenon as implying that some kind of "external force" must have > influenced the beam ! > of the light causing it to bend towards the ground in the same manner that > throwing a ball across the same room causes it to assume the trajectory of a > parabolic curve towards the ground. > > The puzzle, according to my very simple & prosaic understanding of Einstein's > perceptions of acceleration versus gravity, is that there really isn't a > "force" influencing the beam of light, nor any solid object for that matter > that might also be thrown across the room. What's really happening (according > to my understanding) is that the beam of light (and all solid objects for that > matter) are simply moving through the fabric of 3D space, that in this example > is flat. This is easy to comprehend when using the rocket ship analogy in > which the visual manifestation of acceleration is clearly observable as the > ship continues to accelerate as perceived by an observer outside of the rocket > ship. > > What is NOT so easy to comprehend is the so-called effects of "acceleration" > as it applies to a large mass like our planet Earth. In those cases we call > the phenomenon the influence of "gravity" as compared to "acceleration." We > have very simple mathematical formulas that predict how the phenomenon of > "gravity" behaves - the square of the distance being one of the primary ones. > However, a beam of light bends around the influence of gravity (like our Earth > or Sun) in exactly the same way it would behave if the beam of light were > beamed horizontally across the room within the windowless room of the rocket > ship. > > This brings up the interesting conundrum from my perspective as to whether the > phenomenon we perceive and label as "gravity" really exists in the first > place. I'm under the current impression that it might be considered a gross > misinterpretation, and illusion I might say, to perceive "gravity" as > INFLUENCING any solid object or beam of light. It seems to make more sense > from my perspective to simply call "gravity" another characteristic of the > phenomenon we readily understand as "acceleration" as it applies to 3D space > volume curvatures. The rocket ship reveals the simple effects of > "acceleration" as it applies to a 1 dimensional space. > > In 3D volumetric space the effect can be perceived in the same manner as how a > fixed volume of water is forced to flow through a funnel. As individual water > molecules slowly approach the narrowing bottom spout of the funnel they are > forced to "accelerate" faster and faster as they are forced to travel more > quickly through a confined volume of space. It's the classic fire hose effect. > It seems to me that the surface of a large planetary body, like our Earth or > Sun, is treating "acceleration" in the exact same matter, where 3D volume > space is in a sense being squeezed. In order to compensate for this squeezing > effect objects "accelerate" faster at the surface than they would if dropped > hundreds if not thousands of miles above the planetary surface - where 3D > space isn't squeezed as much. > > The above analogy may not explain or prove the effects ZPE as suggested by > Puthoff, other than the fact that it doesn't appear to contradict the > assumption that a solid object that is being accelerated feels the effect of > "gravity/acceleration" - which is theorized to be due to the object passing > through ZPE space. > > On the other hand, my "clarification" might possibly help point out what I > suspect could be a metaphorical trap of falling into a gravity well of > illusory effects which I suspect many individuals innocently make. Their > ensnarement within the gravity well of illusory effects may be hampering the > next epiphany that awaits them just around the corner. > > Regarding epiphanies, well, I'm waiting for one as well! > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > This habit of contemplating of motion by shutting oneself in box began with Galileo and was taken to its logical extreme by Einstein: >From Galileo's _Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems_ "Shut yourself up with some friend in the main cabin below decks on some large ship, and have with you there some flies, butterflies, and other small flying animals. Have a large bowl of water with some fish in it; hang up a bottle that empties drop by drop into a wide vessel beneath it. With the ship standing still, observe carefully how the little animals fly with equal speed to all sides of the cabin. The fish swim indifferently in all directions; the drops fall into the vessel beneath; and, in throwing something to your friend, you need throw it no more strongly in one direction than another, the distances being equal; jumping with your feet together, you pass equal spaces in every direction. When you have observed all these things carefully (though there is no doubt that when the ship is standing still everything must happen in this way), have the ship proceed with any speed you like, so long as the motion is uniform and not fluctuating this way and that. You will discover not the least change in all the effects named, nor could you tell from any of them whether the ship was moving or standing still. In jumping, you will pass on the floor the same spaces as before, nor will you make larger jumps toward the stern than toward the prow even though the ship is moving quite rapidly, despite the fact that during the time that you are in the air the floor under you will be going in a direction opposite to your jump. In throwing something to your companion, you will need no more force to get it to him whether he is in the direction of the bow or the stern, with yourself situated opposite. The droplets will fall as before into the vessel beneath without dropping toward the stern, although while the drops are in the air the ship runs many spans. The fish in their water will swim toward the front of their bowl with no more effort than toward the back, and will go with equal ease to bait placed anywhere around the edges of the bowl. Finally the butterflies and flies will continue their flights indifferently toward every side, nor will it ever happen that they are concentrated toward the stern, as if tired out from keeping up with the course of the ship, from which they will have been separated during long intervals by keeping themselves in the air. And if smoke is made by burning some incense, it will be seen going up in the form of a little cloud, remaining still and moving no more toward one side than the other. The cause of all these correspondences of effects is the fact that the ship's motion is common to all the things contained in it, and to the air also. That is why I said you should be below decks; for if this took place above in the open air, which would not follow the course of the ship, more or less noticeable differences would be seen in some of the effects noted." Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 10:58:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74HvYgl015748; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:57:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74HvXl8015726; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:57:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:57:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050804135609.044d7090 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:56:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Texas to Meet Renewable Goal Early In-Reply-To: <20050804152933.LPKN9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellso uth.net> References: <20050804152933.LPKN9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_13936718==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_13936718==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From this press release: http://www.puc.state.tx.us/nrelease/2005/021505.cfm "Approximately three percent of the state's total electric generating capacity comes from renewable energy." That's great! However, I think it includes hydroelectric power. For a quick look at Texas overall electric power generation, see: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/texas.pdf See Table 4, bottom section, "Total Electric Industry." Total capacity as of 2002 is 94,488 MW. 2000 MW of wind power is 2% of that, plus 600 MW hydroelectric comes to about 3%. However, this is probably nameplate capacity, rather than actual. Other sources such as petroleum or natural gas plants are not run at 100% of capacity on average, so I expect hydro + "Other Renewables" are about 2%. Wind is probably well ahead of Hydroelectric in Texas, even taking into account capacity factor, and it is about 14% of Nuclear (actual wind: 600 MW, actual nuclear: 4,320 MW). They should expand the number of wind farms by a factor of 10 and retire all of their coal-fired plants. The natural gas, nuclear and hydroelectric power should be enough to fill in the gap when the wind does not blow. The latest stats from http://www.awea.org/ show that the U.S. expects to add 2,500 MW this year. See: http://www.awea.org/pubs/documents/Outlook%202005.pdf Comparing actual capacity, 2,500 MW is almost as much capacity as an average U.S. nuclear plant (750 MW versus 860 MW). If we were building one new nuclear power plant per year that fact would be in the news, but wind farms seldom attract much attention, except when some bozo (such as the V.P.) claims that wind will never make a significant contribution. Continuing from the press release: "In Texas, a megawatt provides enough electricity for a year to power three to four hundred homes." Sigh. I wish the PR people at PUCT would learn a little about energy, or have one of their tech people proofread these things. - Jed --=====================_13936718==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" From this press release:

http://www.puc.state.tx.us/nrelease/2005/021505.cfm

"Approximately three percent of the state's total electric generating capacity comes from renewable energy."

That's great! However, I think it includes hydroelectric power. For a quick look at Texas overall electric power generation, see:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/texas.pdf

See Table 4, bottom section, "Total Electric Industry."

Total capacity as of 2002 is 94,488 MW. 2000 MW of wind power is 2% of that, plus 600 MW hydroelectric comes to about 3%. However, this is probably nameplate capacity, rather than actual. Other sources such as petroleum or natural gas plants are not run at 100% of capacity on average, so I expect hydro + "Other Renewables" are about 2%. Wind is probably well ahead of Hydroelectric in Texas, even taking into account capacity factor, and it is about 14% of Nuclear (actual wind: 600 MW, actual nuclear: 4,320 MW).
 
They should expand the number of wind farms by a factor of 10 and retire all of their coal-fired plants. The natural gas, nuclear and hydroelectric power should be enough to fill in the gap when the wind does not blow.

The latest stats from http://www.awea.org/ show that the U.S. expects to add 2,500 MW this year. See: http://www.awea.org/pubs/documents/Outlook%202005.pdf

Comparing actual capacity, 2,500 MW is almost as much capacity as an average U.S. nuclear plant (750 MW versus 860 MW). If we were building one new nuclear power plant per year that fact would be in the news, but wind farms seldom attract much attention, except when some bozo (such as the V.P.) claims that wind will never make a significant contribution.


Continuing from the press release:

"In Texas, a megawatt provides enough electricity for a year to power three to four hundred homes."

Sigh. I wish the PR people at PUCT would learn a little about energy, or have one of their tech people proofread these things.

- Jed
--=====================_13936718==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 11:30:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74IThrh004271; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:29:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74ITegM004217; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:29:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:29:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c59922$6be8e4d0$ef027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Texas to Meet Renewable Goal Early Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:29:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C598F8.82090DF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C598F8.82090DF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C598F8.82090DF0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C598F8.82090DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankCraig Haynie wrote.. >When they deregulated energy back in 2000 in Texas, a new company = started=20 selling electricity in Texas called Green Mountain Energy. All of their=20 energy which is sold in Texas comes from wind farms in west Texas. The=20 demand for Green Mountain energy has been surprising. They have built=20 additional wind farms since inception, and they are responsible for = almost=20 all of this renewable energy that's mentioned -- 96% it seems. >From my perspective, it's more anecdotal evidence of how the market can = solve our energy problems if allowed to function. Craig, Green Mountain has a lot of help from subsidies to assist their = wind farm projects. Interesting history of who they are ,how they formed = and how profitable are they? LCRA has joint ventures for electric power = transmission lines construction across the state working with the power = producers. Interesting these wind generating systems are all European = made. Perhaps they have a leg up on the USA., or, a hand in the = legislation guiding the effort at the congressional level. Ricahrd ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C598F8.82090DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Craig Haynie wrote..

>When they deregulated energy back in 2000 in Texas, a new company = started=20
selling electricity in Texas called Green Mountain Energy. All of = their=20
energy which is sold in Texas comes from wind farms in west Texas. = The=20
demand for Green Mountain energy has been surprising. They have = built=20
additional wind farms since inception,  and they are = responsible for=20 almost
all of this renewable energy that's mentioned -- 96% it=20 seems.

>From my perspective, it's more anecdotal evidence of = how the=20 market can
solve our energy problems if allowed to function.

Craig, Green Mountain has a lot of help from subsidies to assist = their wind=20 farm projects. Interesting history of who they are ,how they formed and=20  how profitable are they? LCRA has joint ventures for electric = power=20 transmission lines  construction across the state working with the = power=20 producers. Interesting these wind generating systems are all European = made.=20 Perhaps they have a leg up on the USA., or, a hand in the legislation = guiding=20 the effort at the congressional level.

Ricahrd

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C598F8.82090DF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C598F8.82090DF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c59922$6ab769b0$ef027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C598F8.82090DF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 12:13:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74JCda2000655; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:12:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74JCcYC000647; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:12:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:12:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050804150619.044d6390 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:12:19 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Nameplate versus actual windpower, and backup power Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3TUkUB.A.DK.mim8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here are some interesting statements from this document: http://www.awea.org/pubs/documents/Outlook%202005.pdf "A report released by the Minnesota Department of Commerce found that the cost of integrating [1,500 MW] of wind would be less than one-half cent per kilowatt-hour, and could be further reduced with improved scheduling, forecasting, and markets. The study also concluded the 1,500 MW of wind generation contributes the equivalent of 400 MW of conventional generation (27% of the wind power nameplate capacity) in terms of system reliability. Although some wind opponents have claimed that each MW of wind added to the system requires a MW of new fossil backup, the Minnesota study revealed that 1,500 MW of new wind would only require 7.8 MW of new backup power. The entire study is available at http://www.commerce.state.mn.us The New York Independent System Operator (NYISO) and New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) have released a report concluding that a 10% penetration level of wind can be accommodated by existing processes and resources in the state's bulk power system. Ten percent, measured as nameplate wind capacity divided by system peak load, would equate to about 3,300 MW of installed wind power capacity. These studies confirm what has long been the experience in Europe, where Denmark and certain regions of Germany and Spain generate 20% or more of their electricity from wind without costly adjustments or detriment to the reliability of their systems . . ." I have been estimating that actual is 30% of nameplate. This document says 27%. Maybe that is the average in Minnesota. In other locations the average is higher. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 14:04:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74L3l3C028309; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:04:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74L3XUx028201; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:03:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:03:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050804160558.044d6050 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:03:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Nuclear versus wind comparison based on EIA 2002 data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message posted earlier I quoted actual nuclear plant capacity at 860 MW. To be precise it is 857. This is based on the Annual Energy Review 2002 edition, Fig. 1 and Table 9.2. The relevant figures (which I hope I have interpreted correctly) are: Operable Units: 104 Net Summer Capacity of Operable Units: 98.6 Million kW Capacity Factor: 90.4% That means the average operable unit is 948 MWe (in the good old summertime), but it produces on average 857 MWe. Right? The latest Annual Energy Review is here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/contents.html It shows things have gone downhill a little: Operable Units: 104 Net Summer Capacity of Operable Units: 98.8 Million kW Capacity Factor: 88.2% That's 837 MWe, actual. In other words, depending on what you think the average actual power over wind turbine is (27% or 30% of nameplate), it takes somewhere between 2,850 and 3,170 MW nameplate of wind capacity to equal one average US nuclear plant. Nuclear power supplied almost exactly 20% of US demand (okay, 20.2%, now down to 19.8%), so it would take 520 nuclear plants to supply all U.S. electricity. That is 446,000 MW actual capacity -- be it nuclear, wind, or cold fusion. (This is ignoring peak capacity issues . . . see below.) That converts to between 1,482,000 MW and 1,648,000 MW nameplate wind capacity. That's a lotta turbines. In a few years 1.5 MW units will be common so it equals about a million towers, give or take. I think there is room in places such as North Dakota for this many turbines. There is some talk in Europe about building gigantic offshore 5 MW units. If these could be deployed in North Dakota it would shrink the number of towers down to a more manageable 300,000. Measured in the mass of metal, manufacturing facilities, footprint, power output and other factors, this would be very roughly comparable to the 1.9 million tractor trailer trucks in the U.S. (See http://www.truckinfo.net/trucking/stats.htm) I believe the average tractor trailer truck has a 450 HP engine (335 kW). So the total mechanical energy generation capacity of those trucks is 627,000 MW. The mass of metal is similar to wind turbine towers, but the towers also use a lot of concrete. The footprint of a tower would be somewhat smaller than a typical truck. The turbine blades and generator last about 20 years, about the same as a truck, so the number of manufacturing facilities would be roughly comparable. It is not difficult to imagine all of the tractor trailers in the US parked in North and South Dakota. Because wind is intermittent and uncontrolled, generating all (or nearly all) electricity from wind would require some form of storage and transmission, such as hydrogen. The turbines would generate just about as much at night as they do during the day, so you would not need to worry about peak capacity issues. (But you would have to worry about transmission losses.) The super batteries that Chris Zell pines for would help a great deal, especially if they could be combined with superconducting power transmission. Chris is quite right that these batteries would make a big difference to society, but they would not solve the problem of transmitting wind generated electricity from North Dakota to the places where it is needed. Add another 300,000 1.5 MW turbines, and you would be enough to generate all of the energy we need for transportation, using electric vehicles. I estimated this a message here titled, "What if all cars ran on electricity . . ." (April, 2005). Transportation does not need as much energy as you might think. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 14:38:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74Lc5j6012928; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:38:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74Lc3JF012899; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:38:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:38:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050804171838.044e4dd0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:37:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nuclear versus wind comparison based on EIA 2002 data In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050804160558.044d6050 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050804160558.044d6050 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Nuclear power supplied almost exactly 20% of US demand . . . Note that is 20% of electricity (energy), not peak capacity power. It would take ~520 nuclear plants to supply all the electricity we need if the electricity could be stored up at night in Chris Zell's batteries. If we have to meet peak capacity with instantaneous generation I think it would take ~800 to ~900 plants. The last I checked (1998), U.S. peak generating capacity was 743,000 MW. There is no point to estimating how many wind turbines it would take to equal this peak capacity because wind turbines do not work on demand. Yet some projections made by skeptics are based on this number. You have to look at the 446,000 MW actual average output (day and night), instead. The peak capacity crisis has been exaggerated. The 2000 energy crisis in California was supposedly caused by peak demand -- no one ever claimed that base capacity was insufficient -- and it turned out to be a canard. Peak capacity could be reduced quite easily with innovations such as PV, and power meters with remote control turn-off. It is a non-issue with electric vehicles, since they would have to be recharged at night anyway. (They are in use during the day.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 15:39:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74McfHd013215; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:38:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74McdPM013186; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:38:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:38:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d301c59945$304134a0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <20050804152933.LPKN9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Texas to Meet Renewable Goal Early Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:38:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I believe these government renewable goals are very conservative in nature. Private industry, technological innovation and the growing practicality (both in price and functionality) of renewable energy are all combining to make renewables grow rapidly. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 11:29 AM Subject: Texas to Meet Renewable Goal Early > Thanks mainly to the FPL wind project: > > http://www.puc.state.tx.us/nrelease/2005/021505.cfm > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 16:03:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74N38MW024952; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:03:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j74N34Eo024906; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:03:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:03:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010b01c59948$9a6284d0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: 3 to 5 Cent per kWH Solar Coming Next Month! Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:02:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0108_01C59927.13156270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C59927.13156270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We all know that solar electricity currently costs anywhere from 25 to = 50 cents per kilowatt hour, well above the 2 to 10 cent cost range at = which fossil fuels and nuclear power are generated. U.S. DOE = predictions stated that it would be 2020 before solar would become = competitve with other forms of electricity (of course it's not fair that = gas, oil, coal and nuclear are subsidized, but that's another matter). = Well, now a company called International Automated Systems, Inc. (IAS) = is set to start manufacturing a solar technology next month (September, = 2005) that they claim can generate electricity at 3 to 5 Cent per kWH . = They claim their solar technology is 10 times cheaper to manufacture and = operate than current solar technology, thus the major price per kWH = drop. They are looking to produce 200 megawatts of installed capacity = per year. They also have developed a bladless turbine technology that = they claim is ten times cheaper than current turbine technology. For = details, see: http://iaus.com/ Solar Energy The solar collectors do not operate as photovoltaic cells. Rather, the = sun's rays focus onto a heat exchanger which then transfers the heat to = a highly efficient turbine, which in turn hooks directly to a regular AC = electricity generator. Though the panels resemble a magnifying glass, they are in fact composed = of thousands of microscopic refracting lenses on a thin substrate that = is only about 1/8th of an inch thick, and held in place by a frame. The = "thin film" manufacturing process is far less expensive than the = photovoltaic cell manufacturing process. The prototype is rectangular in shape, with 15 panels on each half, each = focusing on a separate heat exchanger that will reach around 1000 = degrees Fahrenheit, driving the turbine. However, the manufactured product will be shaped like an octagon, about = 22 feet in diameter; and will focus all the rays on a larger heat = exchanger, which could get as hot as 4000 =BAF. That unit will put out = about 6-10 kilowatts of AC power, enough to power a few homes. If one of the panels were to be broken, only that section of the = magnifying-glass-effect would be taken out, reducing the energy output = by whatever the percentage of the pane's area is destroyed. The = remainder of the system would continue to function. The pieces are = modular for easy replacement. The entire array is tracked to the sun to keep the sun at 90 degrees, = perpendicular to the panels. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bladeless Turbines=20 The turbine has several remarkable features. There are no blades on the = turbine: it runs on the principle of a supersonic nozzle. This also = enables these turbines to be manufactured at one-tenth of the cost of = traditional turbines. The ceramic shield thermally insulates the = turbine and protects it from corrosion and sediment build-up. A governor regulates the flow of steam through the turbine to prevent = over heating. As the steam exits the nozzles, it is immediately = ionized, generating additional electricity, recovering up to 30-40 = percent of what is typically lost energy in other systems. The turbine can run on any quality of steam, or even on very hot water. = It doesn't have to be "dry steam", which is usually the case with = comparable turbine systems; hence the IAUS turbine doesn't require an = expensive boiler. In the case of a malfunction, the panels are designed = to turn away from the sun. Having a wider range of operable speeds and driving temperatures, the = turbine has a wider range of applications, ranging from cogeneration to = geothermal tapping, to harnessing energy from landfill methane burn-off. The turbine is completely scalable up or down in size; and its cost is = proportionate to the scale -- in contrast to some systems that are only = cost effective at a given scale or size. The average efficiency of this array for converting the sun's energy to = usable electricity, is around 20%, the highest being in the range of = 30%. Solar Energy Storage Breakthrough IAUS has a novel solution to yet another typical solar short-coming: = storage. First, in the IAUS system, the turbine generates directly to = AC, eliminating the expensive DC inverter step and the expensive storage = batteries. IAS's product operates on heat and produces heat as a = byproduct. This energy can be stored using a chemical regeneration = process based on a hydration-dehydration cycle. Thus when the sun is = shining, excess energy can be dumped into the dehydration process. = Then, when there is no sun, the hydration process gives off heat to = operate the turbine. Finally, in this unique process we see a = breakthrough to 24/7 solar power. This process has not yet been refined by IAUS to include in a marketed = package, but they have tested it and proven it to work. Solar to Methanol -- Natural Gas Another process that the company is capable of involves a method of = producing methanol from carbon dioxide and hydrogen. This technology is = already developed and in existence elsewhere, but their apparatus will = make it more economical, to the point where methanol could be made = available at approximately the same cost as gasoline. The UV energy from the sun will split CO2 (carbon dioxide) into CO = (carbon monoxide) and O2 (oxygen). Then the CO along with hydrogen (H) = bubbles through a catalytic unit containing copper and zinc powder = suspended in a kind of oil. The CO and H combine into CH2OH (Methanol). = The H is released through electrolysis from water. The catalytic process requires about 600 psi, and 500=BAF. The heat from = the solar collectors initiates the process, and once it takes off, it = generates excess heat, which can then be used to turn the turbine, to = create more electricity by which they can run the electrolysis. The IAUS concept is to produce methanol fuel using carbon dioxide -- a = primary greenhouse gas -- from the environment -- at a cost comparable = to gasoline. The CO2 could come either from ambient air, or from a smoke = stack, to help clean it up the atmosphere. Being a very small molecule, methanol, or natural gas, burns much more = cleanly and efficiently, resulting in less emissions when it is used as = a fuel. This method solves the Hydrogen transport problem as well. The solar = panels generate electricity to split off hydrogen from water, and rather = than having to then ship the hydrogen, which is problematic, IAUS runs = the hydrogen through this process to convert it to methanol, which can = easily be contained and shipped. ------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C59927.13156270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We all know that solar electricity currently costs anywhere from 25 = to 50=20 cents per kilowatt hour, well above the 2 to 10 cent cost range at=20 which fossil fuels and nuclear power are generated.  U.S. DOE=20 predictions stated that it would be 2020 before solar would become = competitve=20 with other forms of electricity (of course it's not fair that=20 gas, oil, coal and nuclear are subsidized, but that's=20 another matter).  Well, now a company called International Automated Systems, Inc. (IAS) is set to = start=20 manufacturing a solar technology next month (September, 2005) that = they=20 claim can generate electricity at 3 to 5 Cent per kWH .  They claim = their=20 solar technology is 10 times cheaper to manufacture and operate than = current=20 solar technology, thus the major price per kWH drop.  They are = looking to=20 produce 200 megawatts of installed capacity = per=20 year.  They also have developed a bladless turbine technology that = they=20 claim is ten times cheaper than current turbine technology.  For = details,=20 see:  http://iaus.com/
 
Solar Energy
 
The solar collectors do not operate as photovoltaic cells. Rather, = the=20 sun's rays focus onto a heat exchanger which then transfers the heat to = a highly=20 efficient turbine, which in turn hooks directly to a regular AC = electricity=20 generator.

Though the panels resemble a magnifying glass, = they are=20 in fact composed of thousands of microscopic refracting lenses on a thin = substrate that is only about 1/8th of an inch thick, and held in place = by a=20 frame. The "thin film" manufacturing process is far less expensive than = the=20 photovoltaic cell manufacturing process.

The prototype is = rectangular in=20 shape, with 15 panels on each half, each focusing on a separate heat = exchanger=20 that will reach around 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, driving the = turbine.

However, the manufactured product will be = shaped like an=20 octagon, about 22 feet in diameter; and will focus all the rays on a = larger heat=20 exchanger, which could get as hot as 4000 =BAF.  That unit will put = out about=20 6-10 kilowatts of AC power, enough to power a few homes.

If one = of the=20 panels were to be broken, only that section of the = magnifying-glass-effect would=20 be taken out, reducing the energy output by whatever the percentage of = the=20 pane's area is destroyed.  The remainder of the system would = continue to=20 function.  The pieces are modular for = easy
replacement.

The=20 entire array is tracked to the sun to keep the sun at 90 degrees, = perpendicular=20 to the panels.

----------------------------------------------------------------= --------

Bladeless Turbines =

The turbine has several remarkable = features. =20 There are no blades on the turbine: it runs on the principle of a = supersonic=20 nozzle.  This also enables these turbines to be manufactured at = one-tenth=20 of the cost of traditional turbines.  The ceramic shield thermally=20 insulates the turbine and protects it from corrosion and sediment=20 build-up.

A governor regulates the flow of steam through the = turbine to=20 prevent over heating.  As the steam exits the nozzles, it is = immediately=20 ionized, generating additional electricity, recovering up to 30-40 = percent of=20 what is typically lost energy in other systems.

The turbine can = run on=20 any quality of steam, or even on very hot water.  It doesn't have = to be=20 "dry steam", which is usually the case with comparable turbine systems; = hence=20 the IAUS turbine doesn't require an expensive boiler.  In the case = of a=20 malfunction, the panels are designed to turn away from the = sun.

Having a=20 wider range of operable speeds and driving temperatures, the turbine has = a wider=20 range of applications, ranging from cogeneration to geothermal tapping, = to=20 harnessing energy from landfill methane burn-off.

The turbine is=20 completely scalable up or down in size; and its cost is proportionate to = the=20 scale -- in contrast to some systems that are only cost effective at a = given=20 scale or size.

The average efficiency of this array for = converting the=20 sun's energy to usable electricity, is around 20%, the highest being in = the=20 range of 30%.


Solar Energy Storage = Breakthrough

IAUS=20 has a novel solution to yet another typical solar short-coming: = storage. =20 First, in the IAUS system, the turbine generates directly to AC, = eliminating the=20 expensive DC inverter step and the expensive storage batteries. IAS=92s = product=20 operates on heat and produces heat as a byproduct. This energy can be = stored=20 using a chemical regeneration process based on a hydration-dehydration = cycle.=20 Thus when the sun is shining, excess energy can be dumped into the = dehydration=20 process.  Then, when there is no sun, the hydration process gives = off heat=20 to operate the turbine.  Finally, in this unique process we see a=20 breakthrough to 24/7 solar power.

This process has not yet been = refined=20 by IAUS to include in a marketed package, but they have tested it and = proven it=20 to work.


Solar to Methanol -- Natural=20 Gas

Another process that the company is capable of involves a = method=20 of producing methanol from carbon dioxide and hydrogen.  This = technology is=20 already developed and in existence elsewhere, but their apparatus will = make it=20 more economical, to the point where methanol could be made available at=20 approximately the same cost as gasoline.

The UV energy from the = sun will=20 split CO2 (carbon dioxide) into CO (carbon monoxide) and O2 (oxygen). = Then the=20 CO along with hydrogen (H) bubbles through a catalytic unit containing = copper=20 and zinc powder suspended in a kind of oil. The CO and H combine into = CH2OH=20 (Methanol). The H is released through electrolysis from = water.

The=20 catalytic process requires about 600 psi, and 500=BAF. The heat from the = solar=20 collectors initiates the process, and once it takes off, it generates = excess=20 heat, which can then be used to turn the turbine, to create more = electricity by=20 which they can run the electrolysis.

The IAUS concept is to = produce=20 methanol fuel using carbon dioxide -- a primary greenhouse gas -- from = the=20 environment -- at a cost comparable to gasoline. The CO2 could come = either from=20 ambient air, or from a smoke stack, to help clean it up the=20 atmosphere.

Being a very small molecule, methanol, or natural = gas, burns=20 much more cleanly and efficiently, resulting in less emissions when it = is used=20 as a fuel.

This method solves the Hydrogen transport problem as=20 well.  The solar panels generate electricity to split off hydrogen = from=20 water, and rather than having to then ship the hydrogen, which is = problematic,=20 IAUS runs the hydrogen through this process to convert it to methanol, = which can=20 easily be contained and shipped.


------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C59927.13156270-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 05:12:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75CBjax014993; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:12:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75CBhPc014975; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:11:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:11:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003501c599b6$c702bc30$f658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000c01c5989a$8a55c6f0$49027841 xptower> Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:50:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Blank From: RC Macaulay Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet Thomas Malloy wrote.. > I was working by a mercury thermometer today. The radio station reported a temperature, which I assume they got from the weather service which was 8 degrees F lower than the one I observed. Thomas, One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten agreement between the weather bureau and the local chamber of commence. It's all about tourism and keeping the temperature statistics as " average" as they can stretch the truth. Richard --------------------------------------------------- Please, guys, use some common sense. The temperature at any local point can very widely from the "official" temperature because local temperatures do vary. If you are standing on a lawn, in the shade, or on a hot asphalt parking lot you will get significantly different temperatures. The US Weather service sampling points are standardized structures which are often located at some airport. There is a rain gauge, an anamometer, weather vane and a thermomenter enclosed in a modest white-painted ventilated box. Ventilated, to allow the local air to flow thorough and painted white to minimize solar heating which would distort the temperature measurement. Relative humidity is also measured. Each mesuremnent of local conditions has to be as good as possible for the weather forecasting computers to work at all. Skewing the data for "tourism" would serve nobody's interests. Really, if conspiracy theories is your hobby, try something else. Such assertions are credibility-shredders. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 05:30:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75CU9mL022367; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:30:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75CU2Am022316; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:30:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:30:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: BLP in PhysicsWeb Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:29:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, On the institute of physics membership mag. http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/9/8/4/1 They listen eventually if you have enough patience and do good work. Regards, Remi. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 06:34:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75DY8ur024903; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 06:34:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75DY6f3024886; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 06:34:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 06:34:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003501c599b6$c702bc30$f658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <000c01c5989a$8a55c6f0$49027841 xptower> <003501c599b6$c702bc30$f658ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:33:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And Mike Carrell responded > >From: RC Macaulay >Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet > > >Thomas Malloy wrote.. >> I was working by a mercury >thermometer today. The radio station reported a temperature, which I >assume they got from the weather service which was 8 degrees F lower >than the one I observed. > >Thomas, One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten agreement between >the weather bureau and the local chamber of commence. It's all about tourism > >--------------------------------------------------- >Please, guys, use some common sense. The temperature at any local point can >very widely from the "official" temperature because local temperatures do > >Really, if conspiracy theories is your hobby, try something else. Such >assertions are credibility-shredders. The weather bureau is located about 4 miles south of me at the airport. I realize that the downtown area is a heat island, However I was in a residential area to the south of it. No asphalt, no direct sun. I realize that the temperatures vary some, OTOH, 8 degrees, seems a little extreme. You're right, conspiracy theories are credibility shredders. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 07:19:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75EIbiL026556; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:18:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75EIZDO026535; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:18:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:18:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <44038l$19t1m27 mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,170,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="1406195783:sNHT16489848" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: RE: Nuclear versus wind comparison based on EIA 2002 data Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:18:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > > I wrote: > > >Nuclear power supplied almost exactly 20% of US demand . . . > > Note that is 20% of electricity (energy), not peak capacity power. > > It would take ~520 nuclear plants to supply all the > electricity we need if the electricity could be stored > up at night in Chris Zell's batteries. If we have to meet peak > capacity with instantaneous generation I think it would take > ~800 to ~900 plants. The last I checked (1998), U.S. peak > generating capacity was 743,000 MW. > > There is no point to estimating how many wind turbines it > would take to equal this peak capacity because wind turbines > do not work on demand. Yet some projections made by skeptics > are based on this number. You have to look at the 446,000 MW > actual average output (day and night), instead. > > The peak capacity crisis has been exaggerated. The 2000 > energy crisis in California was supposedly caused by peak > demand -- no one ever claimed that base capacity was > insufficient -- and it turned out to be a canard. Peak > capacity could be reduced quite easily with innovations such > as PV, and power meters with remote control turn-off. It is > a non-issue with electric vehicles, since they would have to > be recharged at night anyway. (They are in use during the day.) > > - Jed FWIW, I've been subscribing to the Kiplinger Letter for several decades now and this is what they had to say in last week's newsletter concerning future U.S. Energy Demands: It's likely that 15 new nuclear plants will be built over the next 15 years. One is an abandoned reactor in Alabama - refurbished, to be operational within 2 years. Two of three that are in the queue are being built in Virginia and Mississippi. One in Illinois will become operational by 2012. By the end of 2020 12 more plants will be completed. By 2020 1/4 of U.S. electricity will be generated from nuclear facilities: 1400 billion kW-hours. Currently it's 800 kW-hours. Currently our capacity to make power (from Nuclear power?) is twice that of France's capability, even though France currently generates the majority of its national electrical demand from them. Obviously, it's a far smaller percentage within the U.S. Kiplinger states "soaring energy demand" up by 50% by 2020 is the reason for nuclear revival. (well...duh!) They do state that the current low costs (pegged at 1.68 cent/kWh) is headed DOWN to around 1 cent /kWh, presumably by 2020. For comparison electricity produced from natural gas is hovering around 5.87 cents/kWh. It's a powerful incentive to build more of the nuclear beasties, which should also be built more efficiently than the current ageing generation. Cheaper and easier government licensing procedures including pre-approval for standard plant designs will speed up the gestation process. "Green Groups" will fret over this nuclear revival (particularly nuclear waste issues) but concerns about growing global warning will most likely override the worst opposition. Despite current opposition Yucca Mountain will eventually become the nation's repository of spent nuclear waste. (Again, that seems to be another no-brainer from my point of view - where the hell else are they goina put the stuff!) Also, future nuclear plants will co generate hydrogen for fuel cells, adding value to nuclear production - assuming appropriate hydrogen extraction technology advances accordingly. * * * * My own comments: While it might seem as if there is a revival of nuclear plant building, it doesn't appear to be an all-out stampede. Dunno for sure if that's a good or bad sign. It would appear that none of the above predictions made by Kiplinger (which often tend to be somewhat conservative in my view) take into account the possibility of unexpected new technological breakthroughs and the potential disruptions they would induce into the current energy infrastructure. It is sensible to stick to what IS known (expected), not what one hopes could possibly happen. BTW, the Kiplinger newsletter gets its information from insiders within Government and the corporate sector. All sources and the quotes they make always remain anonymous. I still keep hoping that BLP, or "Son of MAHG", or maybe even a surprise from Mark Gold's corner of the woods will astound us all. Perhaps in the near future? I'll keep my fingers crossed. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 07:21:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75EKo7S027919; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:21:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75EKnu7027898; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:20:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:20:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050805101401.044c8840 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:20:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 3 to 5 Cent per kWH Solar Coming Next Month! In-Reply-To: <010b01c59948$9a6284d0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> References: <010b01c59948$9a6284d0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello wrote: >The solar collectors do not operate as photovoltaic cells. Rather, the >sun's rays focus onto a heat exchanger which then transfers the heat to a >highly efficient turbine, which in turn hooks directly to a regular AC >electricity generator. Similar devices have been proposed many times. The Lux power plants in California are a good example. They have never worked out economically in the past, but I think that is because the cost of fossil fuel has always fallen because of supply gluts. If oil has reached a permanent high something like this may well succeed. >The IAUS concept is to produce methanol fuel using carbon dioxide -- a >primary greenhouse gas -- from the environment -- at a cost comparable to >gasoline. Excellent idea! If they can make it work economically it would be great. This would solve many of the storage and distribution problems with hydrogen. This company seems innovative and bold. Although I get the impression it has its fingers in too many pies. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 07:54:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75ErjGe020637; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:54:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75Ergkp020619; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:53:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:53:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:53:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050805145321.CEPN9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As posted earlier, Vendyl "Texas" Jones has claimed he knows the location of the proverbial Ark of the Covenant and has permission to reveal same. Well, now he has set a date for the revelation, Tisha B'Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the Temples (August 14th). http://www.thejewishpress.com/news_article.asp?article=5198 Many of us might not be around to see it; however, because some think that the American Hiroshima will happen tomorrow: http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45562 the 60th anniversary of the first use of nuclear weapons as such. What ties these items together is that some believe the American Hiroshima will occur on May 14, the anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel in 1948. Either way, I'm already getting my share of beta radiation as my wife's Grave's disease is presently being treated with I-131. Contrary to the advice of her doctor not to sleep in the same bed, I have wrapped pillow bolsters in several layers of aluminum foil and placed them in the middle of the king sized bed. Think that will work? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 08:25:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75FOOPl005874; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:24:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75FOH2l005753; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:24:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:24:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001c01c599d1$a8c2cb00$85027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plumment Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:23:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C599A7.BED81EB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C599A7.BED81EB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C599A7.BED9A550" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C599A7.BED9A550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Blank From: RC Macaulay Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet Thomas Malloy wrote.. > I was working by a mercury thermometer today. The radio station reported a temperature, which I assume they got from the weather service which was 8 degrees F lower than the one I observed. Thomas, One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten agreement = between the weather bureau and the local chamber of commence. It's all about = tourism and keeping the temperature statistics as " average" as they can stretch = the truth. Richard --------------------------------------------------- Please, guys, use some common sense. The temperature at any local point = can very widely from the "official" temperature because local temperatures = do vary. If you are standing on a lawn, in the shade, or on a hot asphalt parking lot you will get significantly different temperatures. The US Weather service sampling points are standardized structures which are = often located at some airport. There is a rain gauge, an anamometer, weather = vane and a thermomenter enclosed in a modest white-painted ventilated box. Ventilated, to allow the local air to flow thorough and painted white to minimize solar heating which would distort the temperature measurement. Relative humidity is also measured. Each mesuremnent of local conditions has to be as good as possible for = the weather forecasting computers to work at all. Skewing the data for = "tourism" would serve nobody's interests. Really, if conspiracy theories is your hobby, try something else. Such assertions are credibility-shredders. Mike Carrell Mike, No impingment on the intregity of the weather professional was = intended. The statisticical data gets skewed once it is out of the hands = of the weather professional into the bureaucracy which is subject to = politics. The same is true of the education system, NASA, etc a.i. Gosh! You are such a trusting soul. Surely the US Constitution taught = us something. The document is written to protect us from the = government.. not visa-verse. The framers of that document knew the laws = of human nature and tried to compensate. One need not be a conspiracy = theorist to sustain an alertness. Just don't believe everything you read = in the funny papers. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C599A7.BED9A550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 

Blank
From: RC Macaulay
Subject: Re: Phytoplankton=20 Plummet


Thomas Malloy wrote..
> I was working by a=20 mercury
thermometer today. The radio station reported a temperature, = which=20 I
assume they got from the weather service which was 8 degrees F=20 lower
than the one I observed.

Thomas,  One of the worse = kept=20 secrets is the unwritten agreement between
the weather bureau and the = local=20 chamber of commence. It's all about tourism
and keeping the = temperature=20 statistics as " average" as they can stretch=20 the
truth.
Richard
---------------------------------------------= ------
Please,=20 guys, use some common sense. The temperature at any local point = can
very=20 widely from the "official" temperature because local temperatures = do
vary. If=20 you are standing on a lawn, in the shade, or on a hot asphalt
parking = lot you=20 will get significantly different temperatures. The US
Weather service = sampling points are standardized structures which are often
located = at some=20 airport. There is a rain gauge, an anamometer, weather vane
and a=20 thermomenter enclosed in a modest white-painted ventilated = box.
Ventilated,=20 to allow the local air to flow thorough and painted white to
minimize = solar=20 heating which would distort the temperature measurement.
Relative = humidity is=20 also measured.

Each mesuremnent of local conditions has to be as = good as=20 possible for the
weather forecasting computers to work at all. = Skewing the=20 data for "tourism"
would serve nobody's interests.

Really, if=20 conspiracy theories is your hobby, try something else. = Such
assertions are=20 credibility-shredders.

Mike Carrell

Mike, No impingment on the intregity of the weather professional was=20 intended. The statisticical data gets skewed once it is out of the hands = of the=20 weather professional into the bureaucracy which is subject to politics. = The same=20 is true of the education system, NASA, etc a.i.

Gosh!  You are such a  trusting soul. Surely the US = Constitution=20 taught us something. The document is written to protect us from the = government..=20 not visa-verse. The framers of that document knew the laws of human = nature and=20 tried to compensate. One need not be a conspiracy theorist to sustain an = alertness. Just don't believe everything you read in the funny = papers.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C599A7.BED9A550-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C599A7.BED81EB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c599d1$a78b0e50$85027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C599A7.BED81EB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 09:09:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75G9DO8032752; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:09:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75G9AWA032719; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:09:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:09:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c599d7$076fc130$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050805145321.CEPN9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:02:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry > Well, now he has set a date for the revelation, Tisha B'Av, the > anniversary of the destruction of the Temples (August 14th) > [snip] What ties these items together is that some believe the > American Hiroshima will occur on May 14, the anniversary of the > founding of the state of Israel in 1948. Despite some possible errors in the dating here - there are indeed a couple of reasons to: 1) believe that Bin Laden associates have indeed already purchased one or two so-called "suitcase" nukes... BUT 2) to believe just as stongly that they have been duped into thinking that they will work, when in fact they will not work. Make no mistake - they do contain a critical mass of fissionable material - but that is far from sufficient (reliable) in weapons of this small size and fragility AND source of origin. Neither of these thoughts is very comforting to the general public, so obviously even if true you will never hear of it - officially. Much can be gleaned (presumption) however - from following the unofficial information which does emerge and slip through the cracks. As to 1) above, apparently it is a lot easier to trace cash-flow (actual bills) than realized (secret markings) - and we do apparently know that a lot of hard-cash which was once drug-profits, and came through the opium regions, have turned up in Russia. There are a number of other possible reasons for this routing of drug profits, outside of the nuclear nightmare, but the purchase of several small nukes is not out of the question - perhaps even likely. But never trust a Russian big-shot! especially a former high ranking General who is placed in a position to pull-off a scam of this caliber. There are only a few and their identity is known and perhaps it is part of an even higer-up scam - in the tradition of the Russian-egg-puzzle - to get hold of needed hard currency and get rid of out-of-date or poorly constructed weaponry.. Sure, they would sell nukes (or what will pass a nukes) to anyone with enough hard currency... but....fully realizing full-well that testing the damn thing in advance is next to impossible - other than to see that it does have enough plutonium. The ramifications of a win-win situation are obvious. If you are paying a hundred-million-plus per item - even in rapidly depreciating dollars, you are not going to try even one of them out in advance, unless it is in Israel - specifically Tel Aviv - NOT Jerusalem (too many Muslims there). If you follow the U.S. debate over aging nuclear warheads, and realize that if anything, the Russian arsenal was probably built much more cheaply, maintained much more shodily, and almost certainly incorporated a hidden failsafe mechanism, as the Russians have always been most fearful of their own Generals - all of these taken together probably means.... even if two or more small nukes have been smuggled in to the USA now, that it is extremely unlikely that they will work at all - or at best will end up with only a dirty-bomb type dud. Since the suitcase variety has only a small amount of high explosive anyway, these duds will probably cause less actual damage than an overturned tanker of some toxic chemical. However the psychological damage will be immense BUT if anything that will probably greatly benefit whatever administration is presumed to be the "hard-line" choice. So there is that angle. All this is not very reassuring, but I am fairly certain that if nothing happens first in Tel Aviv, then nothing will ever happen here. > Either way, I'm already getting my share of beta radiation as my > wife's Grave's disease is presently being treated with I-131. > Contrary to the advice of her doctor not to sleep in the same > bed, I have wrapped pillow bolsters in several layers of > aluminum foil and placed them in the middle of the king sized > bed. Think that will work? Probably.... but if you are going to use metal foil, why not use lead foil? 3M lead foil tape is not a bad choice so long as you do not let it become exposed (tape over it as well as the Pb is toxic) http://www.hillas.com/Adwards.asp?Item=3127 Jones BTW for the 'Revelationists' out there... Tel Aviv is only an hour's drive from Megiddo... and I suppose you know the significance of that. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 09:37:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75Gb5hG019042; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:37:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75Gb2al019002; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:37:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:37:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01c599dc$d67d06e0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <000c01c5989a$8a55c6f0$49027841 xptower> <003501c599b6$c702bc30$f658ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:43:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I live on the edge of a small town 9 miles from a city that has its weather reported on the local forcast on The Weather Channel. I own a high quality weather station. I am usually within 1 degree of what they report. The largest variation I remember seeing, other than when a front is between us, was 4 deg F. I have often thought that the conformity of these readings is quite remarkable. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Carrell" To: Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 7:50 AM Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet > Blank > From: RC Macaulay > Subject: Re: Phytoplankton Plummet > > > Thomas Malloy wrote.. > > I was working by a mercury > thermometer today. The radio station reported a temperature, which I > assume they got from the weather service which was 8 degrees F lower > than the one I observed. > > Thomas, One of the worse kept secrets is the unwritten agreement between > the weather bureau and the local chamber of commence. It's all about tourism > and keeping the temperature statistics as " average" as they can stretch the > truth. > Richard > --------------------------------------------------- > Please, guys, use some common sense. The temperature at any local point can > very widely from the "official" temperature because local temperatures do > vary. If you are standing on a lawn, in the shade, or on a hot asphalt > parking lot you will get significantly different temperatures. The US > Weather service sampling points are standardized structures which are often > located at some airport. There is a rain gauge, an anamometer, weather vane > and a thermomenter enclosed in a modest white-painted ventilated box. > Ventilated, to allow the local air to flow thorough and painted white to > minimize solar heating which would distort the temperature measurement. > Relative humidity is also measured. > > Each mesuremnent of local conditions has to be as good as possible for the > weather forecasting computers to work at all. Skewing the data for "tourism" > would serve nobody's interests. > > Really, if conspiracy theories is your hobby, try something else. Such > assertions are credibility-shredders. > > Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 09:38:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75GbJgM019210; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:37:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75GbIho019185; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:37:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:37:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nYlQ+3vyoJf7OPib7GCce7BeWCfUU12FZPJU9xqDbS/TMQUb5zaeSjX+yTZvDj4S; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005855153710340 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:37:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c47bd583645ed74f59df7967ee3c211a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.177 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A new engine for running off low grade heat? In principle with a lot of tangential "jets" drilled into a rotor in a low pressure condensing chamber it should work all the way down to millibar pressure . Can it replace a gas turbine or rotary "Wankel" ? http://www.keveney.com/Wankel.html http://iaus.com/turbine.htm " How Does the Propulsion Turbine Work? Rather than relying on turbine blades to spin the turbine cylinder, IAS's Propulsion Turbine is designed to turn the cylinder without blades. To do that, IAS's patent-pending bladeless turbine utilizes a rocket nozzle to direct steam-a very different approach than traditional turbines." "Rockets, widely recognized as the most efficient engines, are typically propelled by steam. Based on preliminary tests, the IAS-designed rocket nozzle 99 percent efficient, and its net thermal efficiency is above 75 percent when traveling at 50 percent of the velocity of the steam exiting the nozzle. This efficiency continues to increase as the velocity of the rocket nozzle exceeds 50 percent of the velocity of the exiting steam." "Traditional turbine performance relies upon the environment within its blade chambers. If steam condenses on the blades, a sharp drop in efficiency and damage to the turbine can be the result. Traditional multi-stage turbines require dry, high-quality steam. This is more expensive to produce and maintain. IAS's new turbine is structurally unaffected by low quality steam." http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Heros_Engine.html "We know nothing biographical about Hero of Alexandria. Even his dates are unknown, but internal evidence suggests that he was writing about 62 A.D. It is not even clear if he invented the two devices which bear his name: Hero's Fountain and Hero's Engine. " "Hero's Engine is today a generic name for any device which propels itself by shooting steam from one or more orifices. These devices are also known as Eolipiles." "The two engines in the picture at the left are from the apparatus collection at Yale University. After filling the sphere with water, a flame is applied to it until the water boils, and the device begins to rotate." Frederrick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A new engine for running off low grade heat?
 
In principle with a lot of tangential "jets" drilled into a rotor in a low pressure condensing chamber
it should work all the way down to millibar pressure . Can it replace a gas turbine or rotary  "Wankel" ?
 
 
 
 

" How Does the Propulsion Turbine Work? Rather than relying on turbine blades to spin the turbine cylinder, IAS's Propulsion Turbine is designed to turn the cylinder without blades. To do that, IAS's patent-pending bladeless turbine utilizes a rocket nozzle to direct steam-a very different approach than traditional turbines."

"Rockets, widely recognized as the most efficient engines, are typically propelled by steam. Based on preliminary tests, the IAS-designed rocket nozzle 99 percent efficient, and its net thermal efficiency is above 75 percent when traveling at 50 percent of the velocity of the steam exiting the nozzle. This efficiency continues to increase as the velocity of the rocket nozzle exceeds 50 percent of the velocity of the exiting steam."

"Traditional turbine performance relies upon the environment within its blade chambers. If steam condenses on the blades, a sharp drop in efficiency and damage to the turbine can be the result. Traditional multi-stage turbines require dry, high-quality steam. This is more expensive to produce and maintain. IAS's new turbine is structurally unaffected by low quality steam."

 
 
"We know nothing biographical about Hero of Alexandria. Even his dates are unknown, but internal evidence suggests that he was writing about 62 A.D. It is not even clear if he invented the two devices which bear his name: Hero's Fountain and Hero's Engine. "

 "Hero's Engine is today a generic name for any device which propels itself by shooting steam from one or more orifices. These devices are also known as Eolipiles."

"The two engines in the picture at the left are from the apparatus collection at Yale University. After filling the sphere with water, a flame is applied to it until the water boils, and the device begins to rotate."

Frederrick

 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 10:24:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75HNTSF015318; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:23:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75HNRts015284; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:23:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:23:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <410-22005855153710340 earthlink.net> From: "Mark Goldes" To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re:Bladeless Turbines & Tesla Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:23:04 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2005 17:23:05.0511 (UTC) FILETIME=[573B9B70:01C599E2] Resent-Message-ID: <9xzIHC.A.wuD.PC68CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tesla patented the first bladeless turbine. He was never able to commercialize it. Several small firms and individuals have done extensive work with offshoots of this technology, including geothermal utilization. Nothing has proven practical to date in this application. If these folks have solved the many problems they deserve a kudo. But, it would be wise to wait and see. Mark >From: "Frederick Sparber" >Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:37:10 -0500 > >A new engine for running off low grade heat? > >In principle with a lot of tangential "jets" drilled into a rotor in a low >pressure condensing chamber >it should work all the way down to millibar pressure . Can it replace a gas >turbine or rotary "Wankel" ? > >http://www.keveney.com/Wankel.html > > >http://iaus.com/turbine.htm > >" How Does the Propulsion Turbine Work? Rather than relying on turbine >blades to spin the turbine cylinder, IAS's Propulsion Turbine is designed >to turn the cylinder without blades. To do that, IAS's patent-pending >bladeless turbine utilizes a rocket nozzle to direct steam-a very different >approach than traditional turbines." >"Rockets, widely recognized as the most efficient engines, are typically >propelled by steam. Based on preliminary tests, the IAS-designed rocket >nozzle 99 percent efficient, and its net thermal efficiency is above 75 >percent when traveling at 50 percent of the velocity of the steam exiting >the nozzle. This efficiency continues to increase as the velocity of the >rocket nozzle exceeds 50 percent of the velocity of the exiting steam." >"Traditional turbine performance relies upon the environment within its >blade chambers. If steam condenses on the blades, a sharp drop in >efficiency and damage to the turbine can be the result. Traditional >multi-stage turbines require dry, high-quality steam. This is more >expensive to produce and maintain. IAS's new turbine is structurally >unaffected by low quality steam." > >http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Heros_Engine.html > >"We know nothing biographical about Hero of Alexandria. Even his dates are >unknown, but internal evidence suggests that he was writing about 62 A.D. >It is not even clear if he invented the two devices which bear his name: >Hero's Fountain and Hero's Engine. " > "Hero's Engine is today a generic name for any device which propels >itself by shooting steam from one or more orifices. These devices are also >known as Eolipiles." >"The two engines in the picture at the left are from the apparatus >collection at Yale University. After filling the sphere with water, a flame >is applied to it until the water boils, and the device begins to rotate." >Frederrick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 10:24:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75HNV3C015351; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:23:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75HNTeg015313; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:23:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:23:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:23:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050805172302.RXIS27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > In principle with a lot of tangential "jets" drilled into a rotor in a low pressure condensing chamber > it should work all the way down to millibar pressure . Is that how it works? Or is it a variant of the Tesla Turbine? http://www.lindsaybks.com/arch/turbine/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 10:34:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75HU5fs018668; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:34:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75H3BJu000749; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:03:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:03:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:01:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: A page on the Sagnac effect In-reply-to: <42E50FA6.7030105 pobox.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: MetaSciences Academy , 4DWorldx <4DWorldx yahoogroups.com> Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j75H2V0Z000494 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote (on the vortex list): > I just added a page on the Sagnac effect to my little relativity site. > For once I actually attempted to keep the math under control; there's > nothing messier than a Lorentz transform on the page. If you find the > Sagnac effect confusing, or if you've been puzzled by the websites that > claim it's inexplicable in relativity theory, you might find it interesting: > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html > > Anyhow, 'nuff spam for now; this has very little to do with energy... > Your page is well written and your graphics are informative, however your neo-Newtonian account of a light signal on a rotating disk struck me as problematic. You write: "Consider an observer riding on the rim of the disk.  If he measures the velocity of the signals as they go by, he'll find that they're both going the same speed, regardless of which direction they're going in.  Classically, in the fixed frame of reference of the laboratory, we'd have the counterclockwise signal velocity = v + k, and the counterclockwise signal velocity would be = v - k," >From the standpoint of absolute space it does not follow that the observer riding on the disk would measure the same velocity for the light signal. This can only happen if the rotating cable can drag absolute space along with it, which is of course impossible by the principle of absolute of space. So if we treat absolute space as absolutely immobile rather than as a kind of semi-mobile aether of 19th century physics, the true counterclockwise signal velocity is k + v and the true clockwise signal velocity is k - v. In other words, as light interacts with a mechanical reference frame its speed changes to respect the absoluteness of space. This explains the Sagnac effect without relativity theory. Indeed, it I think by treating relative light motion as a subtractive procedure instead of additive procedure we can explain all relativistic effects without Lorentz transformations. Thus the Galileo transform (V) + (-v) is good for material bodies, but light obeys the transform (c) - (-v). Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 11:03:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75I2kac000827; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:03:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75HuXfN031116; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:56:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:56:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:56:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050805175611.SJHT27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > apparently it is a lot easier to trace cash-flow > (actual bills) than realized (secret markings) Or RFIDs: http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904rfidtagsexplode.html > Probably.... but if you are going to use metal foil, why not use > lead foil? Well, the aluminum was in the cabinet. :-) Actually, she had planned to sleep in the spare room; but, we have this new mattress and I didn't think it fair to her or me to sleep on the old one. The beta is only slightly more energetic at 290 keV than C-14; so, I figured a meter of atmosphere should be adequate. The foil is insurance. But it really has the cat puzzled. > BTW for the 'Revelationists' out there... Tel Aviv is only an > hour's drive from Megiddo... and I suppose you know the > significance of that. 16:16 to be exact. Although, I am *not* a believer: "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. " I wonder why John of Patmos used the phrase "in the Hebrew tongue"? A major intersection and the site of many a battle! But, I believe the one you allude to is described in Zechariah 14:12 "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 11:54:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75Irqdr024000; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:54:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75IroUC023968; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:53:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:53:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050805185326.0098f0e0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:53:26 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:02 am 05/08/2005 -0700, Jones wrote: > >BTW for the 'Revelationists' out there... Tel Aviv is only an >hour's drive from Megiddo... and I suppose you know the >significance of that. My father fought the Turks at Megiddo in the first world war. He was in the army of General Edmund Allenby. The only wound he ever received was a spent bullet which hit him in the little toe. Pretty lucky for someone who went straight from the Civil Service Rifles Territorial Regiment off to the front on the 1st day of war. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 12:03:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75J2iwr028153; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:02:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75IVTdK011974; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:31:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:31:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VlS2eb2WTKf/6/YS+lpEpogBbnmBqyQGZanbJRncWDJOSQBEeViujiDoO4DdhtBHGhYhHmSWWnEy2rAOY1ZdS8ry7Ip4ZfSJI0PbB4VQDrqcUN3yx4192BazddIBJz3fIKjBSDDXHff1YBruJC5uYaLrpVhTkwnaO6ozL/zUs/U= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:31:01 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News In-Reply-To: <002601c599d7$076fc130$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050805145321.CEPN9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <002601c599d7$076fc130$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j75IV5pH011737 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: who says it has to be a suitcase nuke? bin laden is loaded, and has no trouble moving people in. i could easlily see a large device being slowly assembled in a wharehouse in the middle of a metropolis somewhere. teh only thing that would really have to be imported would be the nuklear material, and thats easy enough, as there arent radiation detectors on our ports. the info to build is well known, and materials for building a nuclear device isnt difficult to get. On 8/5/05, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry > > > Well, now he has set a date for the revelation, Tisha B'Av, the > > anniversary of the destruction of the Temples (August 14th) > > [snip] What ties these items together is that some believe the > > American Hiroshima will occur on May 14, the anniversary of the > > founding of the state of Israel in 1948. > > Despite some possible errors in the dating here - there are indeed > a couple of reasons to: > > 1) believe that Bin Laden associates have indeed already purchased > one or two so-called "suitcase" nukes... > > BUT > > 2) to believe just as stongly that they have been duped into > thinking that they will work, when in fact they will not work. > > Make no mistake - they do contain a critical mass of fissionable > material - but that is far from sufficient (reliable) in weapons > of this small size and fragility AND source of origin. > > Neither of these thoughts is very comforting to the general > public, so obviously even if true you will never hear of it - > officially. Much can be gleaned (presumption) however - from > following the unofficial information which does emerge and slip > through the cracks. > > As to 1) above, apparently it is a lot easier to trace cash-flow > (actual bills) than realized (secret markings) - and we do > apparently know that a lot of hard-cash which was once > drug-profits, and came through the opium regions, have turned up > in Russia. There are a number of other possible reasons for this > routing of drug profits, outside of the nuclear nightmare, but the > purchase of several small nukes is not out of the question - > perhaps even likely. > > But never trust a Russian big-shot! especially a former high > ranking General who is placed in a position to pull-off a scam of > this caliber. There are only a few and their identity is known and > perhaps it is part of an even higer-up scam - in the tradition of > the Russian-egg-puzzle - to get hold of needed hard currency and > get rid of out-of-date or poorly constructed weaponry.. > > Sure, they would sell nukes (or what will pass a nukes) to anyone > with enough hard currency... but....fully realizing full-well that > testing the damn thing in advance is next to impossible - other > than to see that it does have enough plutonium. The ramifications > of a win-win situation are obvious. If you are paying a > hundred-million-plus per item - even in rapidly depreciating > dollars, you are not going to try even one of them out in advance, > unless it is in Israel - specifically Tel Aviv - NOT Jerusalem > (too many Muslims there). > > If you follow the U.S. debate over aging nuclear warheads, and > realize that if anything, the Russian arsenal was probably built > much more cheaply, maintained much more shodily, and almost > certainly incorporated a hidden failsafe mechanism, as the > Russians have always been most fearful of their own Generals - all > of these taken together probably means.... even if two or more > small nukes have been smuggled in to the USA now, that it is > extremely unlikely that they will work at all - or at best will > end up with only a dirty-bomb type dud. > > Since the suitcase variety has only a small amount of high > explosive anyway, these duds will probably cause less actual > damage than an overturned tanker of some toxic chemical. > > However the psychological damage will be immense BUT if anything > that will probably greatly benefit whatever administration is > presumed to be the "hard-line" choice. So there is that angle. > > All this is not very reassuring, but I am fairly certain that if > nothing happens first in Tel Aviv, then nothing will ever happen > here. > > > > Either way, I'm already getting my share of beta radiation as my > > wife's Grave's disease is presently being treated with I-131. > > Contrary to the advice of her doctor not to sleep in the same > > bed, I have wrapped pillow bolsters in several layers of > > aluminum foil and placed them in the middle of the king sized > > bed. Think that will work? > > Probably.... but if you are going to use metal foil, why not use > lead foil? 3M lead foil tape is not a bad choice so long as you do > not let it become exposed (tape over it as well as the Pb is > toxic) > http://www.hillas.com/Adwards.asp?Item=3127 > > Jones > > BTW for the 'Revelationists' out there... Tel Aviv is only an > hour's drive from Megiddo... and I suppose you know the > significance of that. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 12:05:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75J5MB0029351; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:05:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75J5Ktn029330; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:05:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:05:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:44:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The Joe Cell Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This website gives an overivew of a cell which produces hydrogen and oxygen from water. It's energy production is said to result from it's cohering the Orgone energy. http://educate-yourself.org/fe/fejoewatercell.shtml From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 14:10:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75L5dXo010782; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75L5akn010762; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <440397$hct2ei mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,170,1120449600"; d="scan'208"; a="583961042:sNHT15482096" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:35:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3rBaCC.A.DoC.fS98CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Terry sez > > Jones sez > Well, the aluminum was in the cabinet. :-) Actually, > she had planned to sleep in the spare room; but, we have > this new mattress and I didn't think it fair to her or me > to sleep on the old one. The beta is only slightly more > energetic at 290 keV than C-14; so, I figured a meter of > atmosphere should be adequate. The foil is insurance. > But it really has the cat puzzled. Personally, I think the emotional benefits of cohabitation far outweigh the obvious concerns here, but that's just MHO. BTW, I know of a former employee who was found hiding under his desk by the night watchman one fateful evening who swears to the benefits lining his cranium and bedroom walls with tin foil. Something about blocking "maser tabs" from entering. > > BTW for the 'Revelationists' out there... Tel Aviv > > is only an hour's drive from Megiddo... and I > > suppose you know the significance of that. > > 16:16 to be exact. Although, I am *not* a believer: > > "And he gathered them together into a place called in > the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. " > > I wonder why John of Patmos used the phrase "in the > Hebrew tongue"? > > A major intersection and the site of many a battle! But, > I believe the one you allude to is described in Zechariah > 14:12 > > "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon > their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their > holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their > mouth." > Exciting bedtime stores! Ought to put me to sleep at night in no time. Surely someone has done the math to calculate just how much volumetric space would be necessary to house all the animals that marched into the Ark two-by-two. And don't forget all of their specific dietary needs. Glad I wasn't the stable boy. Just what did they feed the carnivores with? Manna? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 14:27:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75LMg8q016967; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:23:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75LMecv016946; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:22:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:22:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=l09078Wgc+V+7eQYO/Axokvv1tJa5DjVb3wXMY5tqdtHpoFODn2CrXbYoa23ncM2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005855202223250 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:22:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940888e107d182d0b5bba095260ec9da094350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.127 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A response from a off-list expert on rocket propulsion. > > Is it a variant of the Tesla Turbine? > "I don't think so, Fred. As I understand the concept it's just to rotate the nozzles at a tangential velocity nearly equal to the jet velocity of the steam." "It's very sound and depends on just how fast they can really do this for a superheated steam inlet to the nozzles. I think it's tough to rotate any wheel above about 1000 feet/sec. But maybe they mean to concentrate on messy low grade steam from dirty sources?" "The Tesla concept was to use the viscous drag from the jet directed between close disks in a stack on the rotor. I think Tesla's scheme has inherent efficiency limits - not so the rotating nozzle idea." MV Tangential Rotor Force = MV Propellent (Steam, Air, Water, Methanol Vapor, or whatever. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A response from a off-list expert on rocket propulsion.
>
> Is it a variant of the Tesla Turbine?
>
"I don't think so, Fred. As I understand the concept it's just to rotate the
nozzles at a tangential velocity nearly equal to the jet velocity of the
steam."
"It's very sound and depends on just how fast they can really do this for a
superheated steam inlet to the nozzles. I think it's tough to rotate any
wheel above about 1000 feet/sec. But maybe they mean to concentrate on messy
low grade steam from dirty sources?"
"The Tesla concept was to use the viscous drag from the jet directed between
close disks in a stack on the rotor. I think Tesla's scheme has inherent
efficiency limits - not so the rotating nozzle idea."
 
MV  Tangential Rotor Force = MV Propellent  (Steam, Air, Water, Methanol Vapor, or whatever.
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 15:08:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75M3Xfx000555; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:03:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75M3WrT000534; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:03:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:03:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:03:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050805220310.VVGA27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > BTW, I know of a former employee who was found hiding under his desk by the night watchman one fateful evening who swears to the benefits lining his cranium and bedroom walls with tin foil. Something about blocking "maser tabs" from entering. Yes, we have had some discussions on this in the distant past. I believe it was Mr. Sparber who pointed out that the foil shields are not effective against EM unless properly grounded. While this is not much of a challenge in our home since electrical grounds are available at all electrical outlets and most pipes. However, grounding the foil hat while walking involves the use of cables running the length of the body and something like golf shoes or steel taps for earth contact. ;-) > > "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon > > their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their > > holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their > > mouth." > > > > Exciting bedtime stores! Ought to put me to sleep at night in no time. > > Surely someone has done the math to calculate just how much volumetric space would be necessary to house all the animals that marched into the Ark two-by-two. And don't forget all of their specific dietary needs. Glad I wasn't the stable boy. > > Just what did they feed the carnivores with? Manna? Well, Noah had divine help. I have heard that they all became vegans. :-) But my reference from Zechariah is a description of what happens to Israel's enemies who dare to attack Jerusalem. I felt the description of this "plague" is what the prophet "saw" when Israel used it's nukes for defence in the valley of Meggido. http://www.netours.com/2003/meg-jez.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 15:14:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75MA40B003500; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:10:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75MA38S003490; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:10:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:10:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:09:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050805220941.VWYI27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > Is it a variant of the Tesla Turbine? > > > "I don't think so, Fred. As I understand the concept it's just to rotate the > nozzles at a tangential velocity nearly equal to the jet velocity of the > steam." Okay. And from what little we can see of the construction, it looks like the steam is injected in the center along the axis of rotation. Must make for some interesting bearing/seal challenges. Hero's fuel was included in his rotor. BTW, there is some belief, probably unfounded, that Tesla believed his turbine design to be ou. I have also read elsewhere that the Schauberger effect could be involved. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 16:10:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75N656Q025360; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:06:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75N63t6025351; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:06:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:06:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XInWFkajVBJFSa7HkgU2d1omsAWJ/93uscOVen7OBX2fTY8yLyl27cxT1oAAXzo0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200585522557960 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:05:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407598c3ddddedbc974195e1072f619161350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.30 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: Ref. http://iaus.com/turbine.htm > > Okay. And from what little we can see of the construction, it looks like the steam is injected in the center along the axis of rotation. Must make for some interesting bearing/seal challenges. Hero's fuel was included in his rotor. > But not the fire. :-) Only one seal challenge more than any power plant turbine I suppose. That might be one of the stronger patent items. Other than that, any hollow rotor with tangential jets fed from a "boiler" should get up to stress limit rotation speed. Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 16:17:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75N0414023206; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:13:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75McQFn014636; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:38:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:38:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050805174139.044bdb80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:53:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News In-Reply-To: <440397$hct2ei mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <440397$hct2ei mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Surely someone has done the math to calculate just how much volumetric >space would be necessary to house all the animals that marched into the >Ark two-by-two. As Darwin said to Captain Robert Fitzroy, all the ships in the Royal Navy would not suffice. Fitzroy, a fundamentalist, did not want to hear that. (Actually the term "fundamentalist" was not coined for another 60 years.) He was even more upset when Darwin published in 1859. Fitzroy, by the way, was a good scientist in some way. He invented an improved barometer, and improved the dissemination of accurate weather forecasts. I think he got bad press and was unfairly dismissed as governor of New Zealand. He was trying to stand up for the rights of the natives. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 16:49:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75Nj2Nr009012; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:45:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75NiwcY008962; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:44:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:44:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=XcA9xDLjPeqkvuSlvY7WVvk8HVgqqpKCxtcj02fTR2kkZGoo+JkSVmelyaCEyb27; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005855234520270 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 5, 2005 Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:45:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8ef09efef08702a8129e06d599410abdc2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.109.121 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 8/5/2005 12:04:12 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 5, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 Aug 05 Washington, DC science n. the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. (Oxford English Dictionary, eleventh edition) 1. THE PRESIDENT: MAYBE THE WHITE HOUSE COULD USE A DICTIONARY. Conservative Christian supporters are gloating. On Tuesday, in an interview with Texas reporters, the President of the United States came down on the side of equal time for intelligent design. Referring back to his time as Governor of Texas, Mr. Bush said, "I felt like both sides ought to be properly taught." Which two sides are those Mr. President? I don't think we can teach the Genesis story in science class, even after you pack the Court. Surely you're not talking about the "intelligent design" thing? Can someone tell us who or what is doing the designing? I think that will tell us whether it's science or religion. 2. THE FOUNDER: DISCOVERY INSTITUTE DOESN'T NEED A DICTIONARY. The Washington Post on Saturday had a little-noticed letter from Bruce Chapman, founder and President of the Discovery Institute. Director of the White House Office of Planning and Evaluation under Ronald Reagan, Chapman learned from the master. Facts are not important, what matters is conviction. "The only religious believers in all this," he writes, "are the Darwinists, who are out to punish scholars who see the weakness of Darwin's theory." And who are these scholars? This brings up another alarming trend, conservative think tanks manned by "scholars" who do no research, but spew out books laden with conviction. Chapman perfected this by recruiting bright young believers to the cause and assigning them the task of becoming biology PhDs. 3. THE SCIENCE ADVISOR: THE PRESIDENT HAS A SCIENCE ADVISOR? Asked by the New York Times to comment, John Marburger responded, "Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology .... intelligent design is not a scientific concept." Good response. It would be nice if the President's science advisor advised the President. 4. THE VATICAN ASTRONOMER: CATHOLIC CHURCH SPLITS OVER EVOLUTION. A cardinal close to the pope has ties to the Discovery Institute http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn071505.html, but in today's issue of The Tablet, Britain's Catholic Weekly, Father George Coyne, an American Jesuit priest and a distinguished astronomer, directly attacked Cardinal Schoenborn's position on evolution. 5. THE PRINCE: WEALTHY BRITISH FARMER LOOKS TO THE MOON FOR HELP. Tormented by fears of nanorobots turning the planet into "grey goo," and poisoning by genetically modified foods, Prince Charles fights science by embracing homeopathy, coffee enemas, organic farming, and now "biodynamics," which involves planting according to cycles of the moon and signs of the Zodiac. In a monarchy you are stuck with what you get, while in a democracy we can pick the best qualified among us to lead. But it's only a theory. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 16:53:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j75NmVJa010552; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:48:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j75NmPNO010513; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:48:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:48:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHi54/W/VfCn0IzbCrVnNCvv8KVmS75BACQ== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.61] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:46:32 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050805.164731.24385.282363 webmail39.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:3:269033880 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.179|webmail39.nyc.untd.com|webmail39.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gentlemen -my Kudo's to Tony Blair for announcing the arrest and deportation of those people wanting to destroy the the freedom of the English people. They want to use there freedoms to destroy the freedoms of the English people who invited them to England. Damm there it is again -(No good deed goes unpunished.) Hurrah To Tony -Send Them back to where they came from. GES From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 17:09:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7604gMK015931; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:05:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7604eoQ015911; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:04:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:04:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <019701c59a1a$60f58ee0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Anything New With iESiUSA? Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:04:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0194_01C599F8.D861BBB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <20RtZ.A.j4D.Y6_8CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0194_01C599F8.D861BBB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know it's still a long shot, but some of us are still pinning our = hopes on iESiUSA to pull us out of this long cold fusion slump. Any = late word on the goings on at iESiUSA? If you can't disclose anything = at this time, no worries. I'm getting the feeling that 2006 is going to = be the year for cold fusion's return. Momentum is building. All we = need is a big development from a company like iESiUSA and the debate is = over for good. ------=_NextPart_000_0194_01C599F8.D861BBB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I know it's still a long shot, but some of us = are still=20 pinning our hopes on iESiUSA to pull us out of this long cold fusion=20 slump.  Any late word on the goings on at iESiUSA?  If you=20 can't disclose anything at this time, no worries.  I'm getting = the=20 feeling that 2006 is going to be the year for cold fusion's = return. =20 Momentum is building.  All we need is a big development from a = company like=20 iESiUSA and the debate is over for good.
------=_NextPart_000_0194_01C599F8.D861BBB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 17:10:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7605jb6016402; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:06:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7605g1f016376; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:05:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:05:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01a401c59a1a$8411e680$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-22005855234520270 ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 5, 2005 Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:05:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This week's column could have been called What's Not New. Government and politics mixing in America, what's new about that? Unfortunately, our current crop of politicians really seems to be using religion for political advantage in a cynical way to win votes. Are people tired of this already? Time we sent the religious righters back to wherever they came from and start running our government to benefit all for a change? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 7:45 PM Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 5, 2005 >> [Original Message] >> From: What's New > To: > Date: 8/5/2005 12:04:12 PM > Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 5, 2005 > > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 Aug 05 Washington, DC > > science n. the intellectual and practical activity encompassing > the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the > physical and natural world through observation and > experiment. (Oxford English Dictionary, eleventh edition) > > 1. THE PRESIDENT: MAYBE THE WHITE HOUSE COULD USE A DICTIONARY. > Conservative Christian supporters are gloating. On Tuesday, in > an interview with Texas reporters, the President of the United > States came down on the side of equal time for intelligent > design. Referring back to his time as Governor of Texas, Mr. > Bush said, "I felt like both sides ought to be properly taught." > Which two sides are those Mr. President? I don't think we can > teach the Genesis story in science class, even after you pack the > Court. Surely you're not talking about the "intelligent design" > thing? Can someone tell us who or what is doing the designing? > I think that will tell us whether it's science or religion. > > 2. THE FOUNDER: DISCOVERY INSTITUTE DOESN'T NEED A DICTIONARY. > The Washington Post on Saturday had a little-noticed letter from > Bruce Chapman, founder and President of the Discovery Institute. > Director of the White House Office of Planning and Evaluation > under Ronald Reagan, Chapman learned from the master. Facts are > not important, what matters is conviction. "The only religious > believers in all this," he writes, "are the Darwinists, who are > out to punish scholars who see the weakness of Darwin's theory." > And who are these scholars? This brings up another alarming > trend, conservative think tanks manned by "scholars" who do no > research, but spew out books laden with conviction. Chapman > perfected this by recruiting bright young believers to the cause > and assigning them the task of becoming biology PhDs. > > 3. THE SCIENCE ADVISOR: THE PRESIDENT HAS A SCIENCE ADVISOR? > Asked by the New York Times to comment, John Marburger responded, > "Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology .... intelligent > design is not a scientific concept." Good response. It would be > nice if the President's science advisor advised the President. > > 4. THE VATICAN ASTRONOMER: CATHOLIC CHURCH SPLITS OVER EVOLUTION. > A cardinal close to the pope has ties to the Discovery Institute > http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn071505.html, but in today's > issue of The Tablet, Britain's Catholic Weekly, Father George > Coyne, an American Jesuit priest and a distinguished astronomer, > directly attacked Cardinal Schoenborn's position on evolution. > > 5. THE PRINCE: WEALTHY BRITISH FARMER LOOKS TO THE MOON FOR HELP. > Tormented by fears of nanorobots turning the planet into "grey > goo," and poisoning by genetically modified foods, Prince Charles > fights science by embracing homeopathy, coffee enemas, organic > farming, and now "biodynamics," which involves planting according > to cycles of the moon and signs of the Zodiac. In a monarchy you > are stuck with what you get, while in a democracy we can pick the > best qualified among us to lead. But it's only a theory. > > THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. > Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the > University of Maryland, but they should be. > --- > Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org > What's New is moving to a different listserver and our > subscription process has changed. To change your subscription > status please visit this link > http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 17:15:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j760B2rm018550; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:11:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j760B0on018503; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:11:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:11:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01b601c59a1b$4427ca20$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:10:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01B3_01C599F9.BCED9380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Subject: Hydrogen Green Fuel Comes A Step Closer Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01B3_01C599F9.BCED9380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hydrogen Green Fuel Comes A Step Closer=20 By Roger Highfield, Science Editor The Telegraph - UK 8-5-5 The dream of using hydrogen, the most plentiful element in the universe, = as a green fuel moved a step closer yesterday with the announcement that = it can be made with the help of sunlight.=20 Nearly all hydrogen used at present is produced by expensive processes = that require the burning of polluting fossil fuels.=20 Now the Weizmann Institute of Science, in Israel, has tested the = environmentally friendly solar method on a large scale.=20 The results of its experiments will be reported in Orlando, Florida, = next week to the world congress of the International Solar Energy = Society.=20 The institute, working with colleagues in Switzerland, France and Sweden = on the EU-backed project, used sunlight to heat a metal ore, such as = zinc oxide, to about 1,200=B0 Celsius in the presence of charcoal.=20 This split the ore, releasing oxygen and creating gaseous zinc, which = was then condensed to a powder. The powder was later allowed to react = with water, yielding hydrogen to be used as fuel and zinc oxide, which = was recycled in the solar plant.=20 Michael Epstein, of the institute, said: "The success of our experiments = brings industrial use closer."=20 He said he foresaw the building of a commercial plant in six to eight = years.=20 The process generates no pollution and the resultant zinc can be easily = stored, transported and converted to hydrogen on demand. In addition, = the zinc can be used directly, for example, in zinc-air batteries, which = serve as efficient converters of chemical to electrical energy.=20 So the method offers a way of storing solar energy in chemical form and = releasing it as it is needed.=20 The recent summit of G8 leaders at Gleneagles, Perthshire, pledged to = encourage co-operation on technology research, including = hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles.=20 =A9 Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2005.=20 http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=3D/news/2005/08/05/wfuel05.xml= &sSheet=3D/news/2005/08/05/ixworld.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_01B3_01C599F9.BCED9380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hydrogen Green = Fuel Comes A Step Closer
By Roger = Highfield,=20 Science Editor
The Telegraph - UK
8-5-5

The dream of using=20 hydrogen, the most plentiful element in the universe, as a green fuel = moved a=20 step closer yesterday with the announcement that it can be made with the = help of=20 sunlight.

Nearly all hydrogen used at present is produced by = expensive=20 processes that require the burning of polluting fossil fuels. =

Now the=20 Weizmann Institute of Science, in Israel, has tested the environmentally = friendly solar method on a large scale.

The results of its = experiments=20 will be reported in Orlando, Florida, next week to the world congress of = the=20 International Solar Energy Society.

The institute, working with=20 colleagues in Switzerland, France and Sweden on the EU-backed project, = used=20 sunlight to heat a metal ore, such as zinc oxide, to about 1,200=B0 = Celsius in the=20 presence of charcoal.

This split the ore, releasing oxygen and = creating=20 gaseous zinc, which was then condensed to a powder. The powder was later = allowed=20 to react with water, yielding hydrogen to be used as fuel and zinc = oxide, which=20 was recycled in the solar plant.

Michael Epstein, of the = institute,=20 said: "The success of our experiments brings industrial use closer." =

He=20 said he foresaw the building of a commercial plant in six to eight = years.=20

The process generates no pollution and the resultant zinc can be = easily=20 stored, transported and converted to hydrogen on demand. In addition, = the zinc=20 can be used directly, for example, in zinc-air batteries, which serve as = efficient converters of chemical to electrical energy.

So the = method=20 offers a way of storing solar energy in chemical form and releasing it = as it is=20 needed.

The recent summit of G8 leaders at Gleneagles, = Perthshire,=20 pledged to encourage co-operation on technology research, including=20 hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles.

=A9 Copyright of Telegraph = Group=20 Limited 2005.

http://telegraph.co.= uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=3D/news/2005/08/05/wfuel05.xml&sShe= et=3D/news/2005/08/05/ixworld.html=20
------=_NextPart_000_01B3_01C599F9.BCED9380-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 17:43:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j760dKOO028262; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:39:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j760dI8Y028247; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:39:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:39:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.16.104] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:38:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050806003856.WHVX3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Only one seal challenge more than any power plant turbine I suppose. I don't follow you. Today's power turbines seal the expansion chamber on one end. It's the open end which expels the expanded gas/plasma. If you inject the steam into the rotor shaft, you must seal the unexpanded gas. Isn't this at a higher pressure? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 18:13:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7618o4B007815; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:09:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7618nN2007805; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:08:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:08:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F40D8F.1030300 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:08:31 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News References: <440397$hct2ei mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <440397$hct2ei mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry sez BTW for the 'Revelationists' out there... Tel Aviv > > is only an hour's drive from Megiddo... and I > > suppose you know the significance of that. > > 16:16 to be exact. Although, I am *not* a believer: > > "And he gathered them together into a place called in > the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. " > > I wonder why John of Patmos used the phrase "in the > Hebrew tongue"? He was writing in to a greek and latin audience who would pass the measage on to the jewish churches. One tank commander said the valley of megidoo is the beast place he's seen for a major tank battle. A wide valley with flanking hills makes for a deadly killing zone and there's only one way through for either side. Straight through the gauntlett. > > A major intersection and the site of many a battle! But, > I believe the one you allude to is described in Zechariah > 14:12 > > "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon > their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their > holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their > mouth." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 18:15:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j761AanF008438; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:10:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j761AYuX008413; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:10:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:10:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHi54/W/VfCn0FRVlEKJyKIcAF7y6pe8Ajg== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.61] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:02:12 GMT To: johnwc patmedia.net Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 5, 2005 X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050805.180220.21367.282964 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:3:3176966417 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.158|webmail18.nyc.untd.com|outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gentlemen- Will Rodgers said it best- It Seems-" "The only thing worst than taxation without representation is taxation with representation" The only hope is we elect once in awhile someone who acually has the interest of the average man as his agenda. Ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 18:32:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j761RKD9015140; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:27:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j761RJeM015129; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:27:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:27:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F411DF.1060409 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:26:55 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News References: <20050805220310.VVGA27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050805220310.VVGA27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Exciting bedtime stores! Ought to put me to sleep at night in no time. >> >>Surely someone has done the math to calculate just how much volumetric space would be necessary to house all the animals that marched into the Ark two-by-two. And don't forget all of their specific dietary needs. Glad I wasn't the stable boy. >> >>Just what did they feed the carnivores with? Manna? >> >> > >Well, Noah had divine help. I have heard that they all became vegans. :-) > > > > > The best book on the Noahs Ark and feeding the animals is Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe I think they ate seagulls.* :-)* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 18:42:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j761c7ZI019175; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:38:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j761c5Cp019151; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:38:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:38:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.16.104] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [OT] Race for the Ark & Other News Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:37:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050806013742.WVWM3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Wesley Bruce > He was writing in to a greek and latin audience who would pass the measage on to the jewish churches. Perhaps. However "Har Meggido" written with Greek letters would not require explanation, IMNSHO. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 5 18:46:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j761gD3K020576; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:42:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j761g9le020542; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:42:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:42:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F4155F.6090107 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:41:51 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: savings glut Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-0oIdB.A.6AF.xVB9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From the Mises blog: http://blog.mises.org/blog/archives/003927.asp > * Following Ben Bernanke, the chairman of the Council of Economic > Advisers, in his testimony to the Congress on July 20,2005, Fed > Chairman Alan Greenspan said > > that it is quite likely that we are currently experiencing a global > savings glut. Agreeing with Bernanke, the Fed chairman views this glut > as one of the factors behind the so-called interest rate conundrum, > i.e., long-term rates have been falling despite the tight interest > rate stance of the Fed.* What does the world need when cold fusion takes off? A large reserve of savings to spend on factories and cold fusion powerplant purchases. What does the world have, the glut, a large reserve of savings? It's time to strike folks! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 04:49:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76Bj16V020995; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 04:45:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76BixOs020967; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 04:44:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 04:44:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dVkvc1C+ZFEs30STtB9e3y/t29aJo89nW99VAe/h3Q4Lu9SMlGpNwMELpV5oZAKI; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005866104453560 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bladeless Turbine Orifice Sizing Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 05:44:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cb3dfdce6ca5070f91a0e60dd2d54ef6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.113 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII For those interested in small hole technology. Water and Ammonia should be fairly close in flow rate. At 0.01 moles/sec (0.18 grams/sec) with 1.60 " Hg (94 F) high side and 0.80 " Hg low (condensing side at 73 F) gives the orifice diameter as 0.048647 inches. http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp Is drawing on technology that Hero came up with almost 2,000 years ago considered " Back Engineering"? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

For those interested in small hole technology.
 
Water and Ammonia should be fairly close in flow rate. At 0.01 moles/sec (0.18 grams/sec)
with 1.60 " Hg  (94 F) high side and  0.80 "  Hg low (condensing side at 73  F) gives the orifice
diameter as 0.048647 inches.
 
 
 
Is drawing on technology that Hero came up with almost 2,000 years ago considered
" Back Engineering"?
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 05:38:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76CXSqE016088; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 05:33:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76CXQqA016033; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 05:33:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 05:33:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GxzWFgNEwIiQlwR4cBpdMVKX5cdei7bL9aQSbgv3seOoiPV5SpwO6pfEfN+XQMmq; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005866113317520 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 06:33:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c2d64b8a375ff01abad21f2d84187c9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.75 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Won't this do it, Terry? http://www.qualiseal.com/controlgap.htm "Type 905 labyrinth seals are durable bushing type seals designed to minimize leakage of gases by using a closely controlled clearance between the floating labyrinth ring and a rotating shaft. The labyrinth seals temperature ranges are exceptionally wide since no elastomers are used. Their design also features a unique stabilizer ring with fins which minimize stress on the carbon ring, thereby maintaining roundness of the labyrinth ring assembly. Dimensional tolerance of the critical inside diameter of the brushing ring is tightly controlled to minimize leakage variations." PRESSURES: UP TO 2,000 P.S.I. TEMPERATURES: -400°F TO 1600°F SPEEDS: UP TO 40,000 FPM Labyrinth Seal Animation: http://www.qualiseal.com/animation.htm Hero didn't have one of these either. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Won't this do it, Terry?
 
 
"Type 905 labyrinth seals are durable bushing type seals designed to minimize leakage of gases by using a closely controlled clearance between the floating labyrinth ring and a rotating shaft. The labyrinth seals temperature ranges are exceptionally wide since no elastomers are used. Their design also features a unique stabilizer ring with fins which minimize stress on the carbon ring, thereby maintaining roundness of the labyrinth ring assembly. Dimensional tolerance of the critical inside diameter of the brushing ring is tightly controlled to minimize leakage variations."
 
 
PRESSURES: UP TO 2,000 P.S.I.
   TEMPERATURES: -400°F TO 1600°F
   SPEEDS: UP TO 40,000 FPM
 
Labyrinth Seal Animation:

http://www.qualiseal.com/animation.htm

Hero didn't have one of these either.   :-)

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 07:01:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76E0ghI021315; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:00:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76E0eCu021300; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:00:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:00:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.37] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:00:17 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2005 14:00:19.0026 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DDB1320:01C59A8F] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, This may be of interest. http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=45693 Mark From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 07:21:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76EL7oI028164; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:21:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76EL5xV028147; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:21:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:21:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.134.199] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: IAS's Bladeless Turbine & Hero's Engine Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:20:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050806142044.KGU27018.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Won't this do it, Terry? > > http://www.qualiseal.com/controlgap.htm Probably. I think the coal-fired plants superheat the water to around 540 deg C; so the bearing/seal would likely work. And it is probably back-engineering since Hero was probably an alien . . . at least a hybrid. ;-) Then again, he did not have this issue: http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Heros_Engine.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 08:20:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76FK4rp017481; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:20:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76FK3m8017467; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:20:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:20:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BWl5FPOBBGP32P4IybaolCVGVAFuGbzw5e6cVPPCkkOy91PlAUIn0LLISYR+QWFH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005866141955890 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 09:19:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401afc09a7b1bfd26da7ac7b4d69be6e2f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.82 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > > Vo, > > This may be of interest. > > http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=45693 > Enticing, but if the IAS Bladeless Turbine (working as claimed) is inside a sealed cooling jacket cooled by a water-antifreeze mix circulating through the radiator, the 180 F heat from the engine coolant loop and exhaust heat (through a heat exchanger) creates a high pressure vapor (Methanol, Ammonia,?) to rotate the turbine rotor driving an off-the-shelf generator. A small electrically powered "condensate return" pump returns the working fluid to the evaporator. I rather doubt that IAS http://iaus.com/turbine.htm is overlooking this patently high market pull area. :-) Frederick > Mark > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 08:32:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76FWHvM021934; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:32:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76FWGfc021922; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:32:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:32:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c59a9b$0ae93070$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:25:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" > This may be of interest. > http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=45693 Wow Mark, A few weeks back I must have been taping into a technology "meme" which these guys created in neurospace, because this concept is exactly how I envisioned a heat-->electric converter for the low-grade heat output of the MAHG. Curiously, they did not mention the word "thermoacoustics". I wonder if that is part of the strategy to try to distance their IP claims from prior art, which is fairly well developed under that particular name. But can you distance this MPG technology from thermoacoustics, really? Even more "curiously" is this bit from their recent SEC filing- "We do not expect the Encore Business to achieve profitability in the near future and we expect to incur substantial operating losses for at least the next twelve months. If we are unable to develop a significant revenue stream or if expenses are larger than expected, the Encore Business may never become profitable." Now, even if it is boilerplate, that is a shocker coming from a company with such an obvious desire to see their name in print that they send out a glowing press release to a PR outfit. This technology bears a closer look, even if the company which licensed it is "on the brink". More later. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 08:43:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76FgrhK025841; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:43:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76Fgqlh025827; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:42:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:42:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c59a9d$73107ad0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:42:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bio of the inventor: ROBERT D. HUNT - Theoretical Physicist / Inventor / Founder of Hunt Aviation After attending Mississippi State colleges, Robert Hunt began his career in 1969 as a New Nuclear designer for Newport News Shipbuilding, then a division of Tenneco Oil Company, where he designed nuclear reactor components for the U.S.S. Nimitz Aircraft Carrier. Mr. Hunt became a private inventor during the mid-1980s while involved in the field of aquaculture. He invented and patented a cryogenic liquid oxygenation system for the aquaculture industry. He has since dedicated his time to the development of his proprietary alternative, clean-energy generating technologies. Mr. Hunt holds numerous patents including a thermoelectric generator that generates electricity from the thermal energy within the air, a new high pressure Drum Jet Turbine that among other uses is capable of being mounted onto a high pressure natural gas well to generate substantial power from the kinetic energy via the earth's geo-pressure, without burning any of the natural gas. Mr. Hunt has also invented a modified Einstein Refrigeration Cycle and a revolutionary new design vertical axis wind turbine. Many of Mr. Hunt's patents are licensed to Encore Clean Energy, a public company trading under the ticker symbol Mr. Hunt is a member of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), a member of the National Business American Association, a member of the National Hydrogen Association, and he served as the first Mississippi Chairman of the Gulf of Mexico Program. http://www.fuellessflight.com/aboutus.htm [Aside] From just a "prestige" standpoint in a resume (and I am about as far from a "credentials-person" as one can get) yet it probably does more harm than good to say "After attending Mississippi State colleges" since the implication is that 1) He did not graduate 2) This is not "MSU" which is an accredited university, not a college 3) He did attentd several colleges in Mississippi before dropping-out - in a state long known as 50th out of 50 in public education 4) Yet he wants to be considered a "theoretical physcist" Hey No problem with that ! as the "proof is in the puddin' " as they say in Faulkner-land (Miss'ippi) However, Number 4) avbove is a LOT easier to appreciate if one simply stated- "self-taught" inventor.... rather than "attended Mississippi State colleges" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 10:37:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76HbMK3002117; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:37:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76HbLGC002105; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:37:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:37:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.37] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <000c01c59a9b$0ae93070$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 10:36:58 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2005 17:37:00.0047 (UTC) FILETIME=[731171F0:01C59AAD] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, The statement regarding profitability is undoubtedly that of a savvy SEC aware lawyer. A statement of this nature appears in materials released by public companies of this nature as a matter of course. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:25:13 -0700 > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" > >>This may be of interest. http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=45693 > > >Wow Mark, > >A few weeks back I must have been taping into a technology "meme" which >these guys created in neurospace, because this concept is exactly how I >envisioned a heat-->electric converter for the low-grade heat output of the >MAHG. > >Curiously, they did not mention the word "thermoacoustics". I wonder if >that is part of the strategy to try to distance their IP claims from prior >art, which is fairly well developed under that particular name. But can you >distance this MPG technology from thermoacoustics, really? > >Even more "curiously" is this bit from their recent SEC filing- > >"We do not expect the Encore Business to achieve profitability in the near >future and we expect to incur substantial operating losses for at least the >next twelve months. If we are unable to develop a significant revenue >stream or if expenses are larger than expected, the Encore Business may >never become profitable." > >Now, even if it is boilerplate, that is a shocker coming from a company >with such an obvious desire to see their name in print that they send out a >glowing press release to a PR outfit. > >This technology bears a closer look, even if the company which licensed it >is "on the brink". More later. > >Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 13:28:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76KS5fd021880; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:28:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76KS3m8021862; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:28:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:28:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.170.136] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 16:27:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050806202740.EUQ3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I suspect DiHydrino Oxide is at least as poisonous as H2O1. I oft wonder if it can exist. I certainly would guess it to be somewhat higher in polarization than the normal molecule since the 2Hy atoms should be closer to each other. Being an engineer, I love symmplicity; but, I find the classical approach to QM somewhat of an oxymoron. And I *know* I am a crackpot; but, I doubt I am a moron. Has anyone subjected the BLP reaction to the nuclear scrutiny that Cold Fusion received? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 13:04:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76K0K5T013504; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:03:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76JGR87032477; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 12:16:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 12:16:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE; b=MzVfnUI8AdX7SNivHMNqz/qsZenizX354ilmbaYKZx1xPmjmE8AbgIO/+6FF7JR5jb3gQvKL/zSDZzq481EoVndHdEDiFZyUWIA9HMTKMqQsSuU4CPWQV1VXUiEVgK6dyc4FCoh9MI15ZLzXQmpAbpIaE4HIpQoeML/4S7sWjJk= ; Message-ID: <03fe01c59abb$40222ab0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <000c01c59a9b$0ae93070$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:15:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: FYI That company Encore Clean Energy Inc. (ticker ECLN) looks like a classic "pump-and-dump" stock. It's IPO appears to have been late in 1999 at around $90.00, and by early 2000 had climbed to over $235. Since then it has traded as low as 9 cents... and yesterday it closed at $ 0.38 Caveat emptor... Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 11:25 AM Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Goldes" > >> This may be of interest. http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=45693 > > > Wow Mark, > > A few weeks back I must have been taping into a technology "meme" which > these guys created in neurospace, because this concept is exactly how I > envisioned a heat-->electric converter for the low-grade heat output of > the MAHG. > > Curiously, they did not mention the word "thermoacoustics". I wonder if > that is part of the strategy to try to distance their IP claims from prior > art, which is fairly well developed under that particular name. But can > you distance this MPG technology from thermoacoustics, really? > > Even more "curiously" is this bit from their recent SEC filing- > > "We do not expect the Encore Business to achieve profitability in the near > future and we expect to incur substantial operating losses for at least > the next twelve months. If we are unable to develop a significant revenue > stream or if expenses are larger than expected, the Encore Business may > never become profitable." > > Now, even if it is boilerplate, that is a shocker coming from a company > with such an obvious desire to see their name in print that they send out > a glowing press release to a PR outfit. > > This technology bears a closer look, even if the company which licensed it > is "on the brink". More later. > > Jones > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 14:26:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76LQAqW008153; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:26:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76LPsts008087; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:25:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:25:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <200401c59acd$5fce3590$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000c01c59a9b$0ae93070$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:25:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An interesting idea. If you use expanding gases to drive a magentic piston through some coils you will generate electricity with potentially good efficiency. However the voltage and frequency will vary widely even from one end of a stroke to another as energy is absorbed from the piston. Most external systems expect standardized voltage and frequency. With modern electronics it is possible to provide this. The problem is similar to wind turbines. There is an optimum rotary speed for coupling to various wind velocities, producing different genrator shaft speeds. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 14:40:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76Le4oZ013030; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:40:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76LdwRh012933; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:39:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:39:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050806213939.0096e3a4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:39:39 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:27 pm 06/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: >I suspect DiHydrino Oxide is at least as poisonous as H2O1. I oft wonder if it can exist. I certainly would guess it to be somewhat higher in polarization than the normal molecule since the 2Hy atoms should be closer to each other. > >Being an engineer, I love symmplicity; but, I find the classical approach to QM somewhat of an oxymoron. > >And I *know* I am a crackpot; but, I doubt I am a moron. There goes the happy moron, He doesn't give a damn, I wish I were a moron. My god, perhaps I am. 8-) (remembered from a very interesting book I read many years ago about an Aussie who travelled round the country doing various soul destroying jobs. I think the title was. "The Making of a Moron" by Niall Brennan) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 14:48:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j76LmJeA015365; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:48:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j76LmI7X015346; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:48:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:48:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.170.136] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:47:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050806214754.RAC3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > I wish I were a moron. Once you realize that ignorance *is* bliss, it's too late. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 17:22:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j770M2Se003297; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:22:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j770M0Nt003259; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:22:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:22:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AF31HPj53QtjqpYQJRk0/eBRgi+sLl2n4Uilc+UTP1SCDKdiC+/8Uv2UEolFt+5F; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005866232057460 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bladeless MiniTurbine Doodles Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 18:20:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a4438531ad28e0a30cef78c3c4cd063d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Using the flow calculator: http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp To see what 0.18 grams/sec water vapor at 330 K (135 F 130 torr) exiting from four 0.031 inch diameter tangential orifices on a 4 inch diameter hollow rotor in an air-cooled condensing chamber at 325 K ( 125 F 100 torr) spinning at 24,000 RPM ~ 400 ft/sec would do as a generator. The calculations show that about 3.2 (STP) liters/sec water vapor exiting the rotor orifices will produce about 20 electrical watts at about 12% efficiency compared to a Carnot efficiency of 15%. But, I wouldn't bet the farm on it. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 Using the flow calculator:
 
 
To see what 0.18 grams/sec water vapor at 330 K  (135 F 130 torr) exiting from
four 0.031 inch diameter tangential orifices on a 4 inch diameter
hollow rotor in an air-cooled condensing chamber at 325 K ( 125 F 100 torr)
spinning at 24,000 RPM ~ 400 ft/sec  would do as a generator.
 
The calculations show that about 3.2 (STP)  liters/sec water vapor exiting
the rotor orifices will produce about 20 electrical watts at
about 12% efficiency compared to a Carnot efficiency of 15%.
 
But, I wouldn't bet the farm on it.  :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 20:00:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7730CkP013501; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:00:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7730BS6013477; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:00:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:00:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c59afc$10f2c970$30027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: [ BOB PARKS-WHATSNEW] Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:59:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C59AD2.279011D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C59AD2.279011D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002D_01C59AD2.27919870" ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C59AD2.27919870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Coviello wrote.. >This week's column could have been called What's Not New. Government = and=20 politics mixing in America, what's new about that? Unfortunately, our=20 current crop of politicians really seems to be using religion for = political=20 advantage in a cynical way to win votes. Are people tired of this = already? Time we sent the religious righters back to wherever they came from and=20 start running our government to benefit all for a change? I read the whats new article by Bob Parks with interest ,in particular = regarding the comments about " intelligent design". The idea of = intelligent design comes from university campus student science groups. = The ideas represent the students challenge to the university to peer = review the Darwin junk science theory or discard it. Ever look at Parks = picture posted at U of M ???. Notice the set of his jaw ? Me thinks he = protestest too much. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C59AD2.27919870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Coviello wrote..

>This week's column could have been called What's Not New. =20 Government and
politics mixing in America, what's new about = that? =20 Unfortunately, our
current crop of politicians really seems to be = using=20 religion for political
advantage in a cynical way to win = votes.  Are=20 people tired of this already?
Time we sent the religious righters = back to=20 wherever they came from and
start running our government to benefit = all for=20 a change?

I read the whats new article by Bob Parks with interest ,in = particular=20 regarding the comments about " intelligent design". The idea of = intelligent=20 design comes from university campus student science groups. The ideas = represent=20 the students challenge to the university to peer review the Darwin junk = science=20 theory or discard it. Ever look at Parks picture posted at U of M ???. = Notice=20 the set of his jaw ? Me thinks he protestest too much.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C59AD2.27919870-- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C59AD2.279011D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002b01c59afc$104f3670$30027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C59AD2.279011D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 20:30:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j773TgFI021344; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:29:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j773TfBm021326; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:29:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:29:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:27:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima In-reply-to: <046801c59afa$fe931240$debc050a annaophb5ed3f4> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j773THdF021252 Resent-Message-ID: <1HvPHB.A.KNF.kAY9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The myths of Hiroshima By Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin 08/05/05 Los Angeles Times -- SIXTY YEARS ago, an atomic bomb was dropped without warning on the center of the Japanese city of Hiroshima. One hundred and forty thousand people were killed, more than 95% of them women and children and other noncombatants. At least half of the victims died of radiation poisoning over the next few months. Three days after Hiroshima was obliterated, the city of Nagasaki suffered a similar fate. The magnitude of death was enormous, but on Aug. 14, 1945 — just five days after the Nagasaki bombing — Radio Tokyo announced that the Japanese emperor had accepted the U.S. terms for surrender. To many Americans at the time, and still for many today, it seemed clear that the bomb had ended the war, even "saving" a million lives that might have been lost if the U.S. had been required to invade mainland Japan. This powerful narrative took root quickly and is now deeply embedded in our historical sense of who we are as a nation. A decade ago, on the 50th anniversary, this narrative was reinforced in an exhibit at the Smithsonian Institution on the Enola Gay, the plane that dropped the first bomb. The exhibit, which had been the subject of a bruising political battle, presented nearly 4 million Americans with an officially sanctioned view of the atomic bombings that again portrayed them as a necessary act in a just war. But although patriotically correct, the exhibit and the narrative on which it was based were historically inaccurate. For one thing, the Smithsonian downplayed the casualties, saying only that the bombs "caused many tens of thousands of deaths" and that Hiroshima was "a definite military target." Americans were also told that use of the bombs "led to the immediate surrender of Japan and made unnecessary the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands." But it's not that straightforward. As Tsuyoshi Hasegawa has shown definitively in his new book, "Racing the Enemy" — and many other historians have long argued — it was the Soviet Union's entry into the Pacific war on Aug. 8, two days after the Hiroshima bombing, that provided the final "shock" that led to Japan's capitulation. The Enola Gay exhibit also repeated such outright lies as the assertion that "special leaflets were dropped on Japanese cities" warning civilians to evacuate. The fact is that atomic bomb warning leaflets were dropped on Japanese cities, but only after Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been destroyed. The hard truth is that the atomic bombings were unnecessary. A million lives were not saved. Indeed, McGeorge Bundy, the man who first popularized this figure, later confessed that he had pulled it out of thin air in order to justify the bombings in a 1947 Harper's magazine essay he had ghostwritten for Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson. The bomb was dropped, as J. Robert Oppenheimer, scientific director of the Manhattan Project, said in November 1945, on "an essentially defeated enemy." President Truman and his closest advisor, Secretary of State James Byrnes, quite plainly used it primarily to prevent the Soviets from sharing in the occupation of Japan. And they used it on Aug. 6 even though they had agreed among themselves as they returned home from the Potsdam Conference on Aug. 3 that the Japanese were looking for peace. These unpleasant historical facts were censored from the 1995 Smithsonian exhibit, an action that should trouble every American. When a government substitutes an officially sanctioned view for publicly debated history, democracy is diminished. Today, in the post-9/11 era, it is critically important that the U.S. face the truth about the atomic bomb. For one thing, the myths surrounding Hiroshima have made it possible for our defense establishment to argue that atomic bombs are legitimate weapons that belong in a democracy's arsenal. But if, as Oppenheimer said, "they are weapons of aggression, of surprise and of terror," how can a democracy rely on such weapons? Oppenheimer understood very soon after Hiroshima that these weapons would ultimately threaten our very survival. Presciently, he even warned us against what is now our worst national nightmare — and Osama bin Laden's frequently voiced dream — an atomic suitcase bomb smuggled into an American city: "Of course it could be done," Oppenheimer told a Senate committee, "and people could destroy New York." Ironically, Hiroshima's myths are now motivating our enemies to attack us with the very weapon we invented. Bin Laden repeatedly refers to Hiroshima in his rambling speeches. It was, he believes, the atomic bombings that shocked the Japanese imperial government into an early surrender — and, he says, he is planning an atomic attack on the U.S. that will similarly shock us into retreating from the Mideast. Finally, Hiroshima's myths have gradually given rise to an American unilateralism born of atomic arrogance. Oppenheimer warned against this "sleazy sense of omnipotence." He observed that "if you approach the problem and say, 'We know what is right and we would like to use the atomic bomb to persuade you to agree with us,' then you are in a very weak position and you will not succeed…. You will find yourselves attempting by force of arms to prevent a disaster." KAI BIRD and MARTIN J. SHERWIN are coauthors of "American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer," published earlier this year by Knopf. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 22:01:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7750p9W016162; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 22:01:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7750m7g016145; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 22:00:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 22:00:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F59575.5040103 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 15:00:37 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat References: <000c01c59a9b$0ae93070$6401a8c0@NuDell> <200401c59acd$5fce3590$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <200401c59acd$5fce3590$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >An interesting idea. If you use expanding gases to drive a magentic piston >through some coils you will generate electricity with potentially good >efficiency. However the voltage and frequency will vary widely even from one >end of a stroke to another as energy is absorbed from the piston. Most >external systems expect standardized voltage and frequency. With modern >electronics it is possible to provide this. > >The problem is similar to wind turbines. There is an optimum rotary speed >for coupling to various wind velocities, producing different genrator shaft >speeds. > >Mike Carrell > > > > > > The problem can be fixed with a rectifier and a few capacitors and induction loops but there are looses. A simple rectifier and a syncronous inverter can match a current to the existing grid current and phase. In wind power one option is to drive the electro magnet with grid power and synconise the switching so the field oscillated with the grid and the induced current winds up in phase and at a steady voltage. The bigger loss with this linear motor design is that part of the combustion energy is wasted slowing, stopping and reversing the direction of the piston. There is also the possibility that thermal or mechanical shock could demagnetize the magnet. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 6 23:16:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j776FEmI001876; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:15:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j776F0q5001780; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:15:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:15:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=N4NTELkCNJu0vr1lkPXJjl7XT3q/Yj6B9ZLG8Bmt8amm/q0tle6Q1vsgvQxYuzkB; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058075141840 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bladeless MiniTurbine Doodles Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:14:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940126a7af0455bb8b62c698beb96ea76f1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.251 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Decimal point error correction for calculation of a MiniTurbine version of the IAS Bladeless Turbine. http://iaus.com/turbine.htm The calculations show that about 3.2 (STP) liters/sec water vapor exiting the rotor orifices will produce about 20 electrical watts at about 1.0% of theoretical efficiency (based on 2260 joule/gram contained in the 0.72 grams of water vapor "propellent") compared to a Carnot efficiency of 1.5% for the 5 K temperature difference. Still not bad for a system that is scalable from milliwatts to megawatts. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Decimal point error correction for calculation of a MiniTurbine version of the
IAS Bladeless Turbine.
 
The calculations show that about 3.2 (STP)  liters/sec water vapor exiting
the rotor orifices will produce about 20 electrical watts at about 1.0% of
theoretical efficiency (based on 2260 joule/gram contained in
the 0.72 grams of water vapor "propellent") compared to a Carnot efficiency of 1.5%
for the 5 K temperature difference.
 
Still not bad for a system that is scalable from milliwatts to megawatts.
 
Frederick
 
 

 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 02:01:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7790lSJ021815; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 02:01:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7790j0e021801; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 02:00:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 02:00:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OcysVXZhTOjQVbVXY40y0q5qlIZJtTwNPIrAyrtZR3G9Ew+3s3E079CnCkc9UqsNBQcDNFWvRAj+HlWruu+y8o2ls1d1tsRiUiUGYsjfuqfTYS6mHs7zPjkEYaaenoppCCxqhMHdY9QtsSI5KcAHPzLWOvDAZB6ca2J+bn9crJI= Message-ID: <3576537105080702007d35a1ee mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:00:24 +0200 From: David Jonsson Reply-To: David Jonsson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Langmuirs paradox and ZPE In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <3576537105072702176d2a46f4 mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7790ScE021730 Resent-Message-ID: <4DYSQD.A.gUF.92c9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 7/30/05, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to David Jonsson's message of Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:17:16 > +0200: > Hi, > [snip] > >Hi > > > >I wonder if ZPE can be involved in the distribution of thermal motion > >of low density plasmas. These distributions are found to be of > >Maxwellian type even when collisions are too few to maintain the > >distribution. This is called the Langmuir paradox. > [snip] > How can they be "too few to maintain the distribution"? Even a > single particle alone in a container will collide with the walls > (where there are lots of particles). God point. I think they mean magnetic bottle plasma confinement. Then of course you could argue if thermal heat can be attributed to the heat of the magnetic walls, their vibration. I have heard of temperature of magnetic field (cold magnetic fields) but never in any established contexts. Could this be the explanation? Someone? Maybe another clue is the inconsistency of talking of particle speed and temperature interchangeably. If particles have temperature, then waves should too. I should probably take a course in statistical mechanics before asking more. David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 03:44:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77AhkdV021752; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 03:44:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77AheYQ021715; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 03:43:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 03:43:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000201c59b3c$ce4c5820$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Fw: Hydrogen Green Fuel Comes A Step Closer Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:03:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C59AE3.67283870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C59AE3.67283870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Palmer=20 To: John Coviello=20 Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 2:00 PM Subject: Re: Hydrogen Green Fuel Comes A Step Closer This process uses up the charcoal, which is partially oxidised wood, and = ends up with hydrogen and CO2. I don't see that this is a great leap = forward! The method of converting sand into silicon that was mentioned = here a while back was far better to "transport" energy from solar energy = "rich" areas. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C59AE3.67283870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Nick=20 Palmer
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Green Fuel Comes A Step = Closer

This process uses up the charcoal, = which is=20 partially oxidised wood, and ends up with hydrogen and CO2. I don't see = that=20 this is a great leap forward! The method of  converting sand into = silicon=20 that was mentioned here a while back was far better to "transport" = energy=20 from solar energy "rich" areas.
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C59AE3.67283870-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 06:34:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77DXgRR015905; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 06:33:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77DXe6U015872; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 06:33:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 06:33:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.17.65] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 9:33:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050807133318.NJXT9925.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9ifkr.A.53D.z2g9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Harry Veeder > it was the Soviet Union's entry into the > Pacific war on Aug. 8, two days after the Hiroshima bombing, that provided > the final "shock" that led to Japan's capitulation. This was likely one of the reasons for the bombs being dropped. It delivered a message to the Soviet Union. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 07:36:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77EZoDm003393; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:36:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77EZmdw003382; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:35:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:35:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kzmDWQLe8EhmUyrkNLpR/ry+tXc7tF7W9qiZQ4oruq38aW5YqsSqn0Guv2MiJ0qX; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005807133523490 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bladeless MiniTurbine Ala Hero Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 08:35:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94000d05b9b8b92028df8210fc88199ed69350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.10 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hmm. Slight jet modification and a hose hooked to the pressure cooker. :-) http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/A15854.htm Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Hmm. Slight jet modification and a hose hooked to the pressure cooker.  :-)
 
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 07:41:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77EejxQ005125; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:41:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77Eehbo005104; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:40:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:40:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.17.65] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Bladeless MiniTurbine Ala Hero Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:40:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050807144022.ODNF9925.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <0KYch.A.sPB.r1h9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Hmm. Slight jet modification and a hose hooked to the pressure cooker. :-) > > http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/A15854.htm Ah, yes. But this design concentrates on more thrust and less torque. Nice colour, tho. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 07:50:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77Enb3p008141; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:49:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77EnZ5J008114; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:49:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:49:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.17.65] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Michio Kaku on FTL Travel Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:49:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050807144913.OGHH9925.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9X-gi.A.u-B.-9h9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: He has many good articles. http://www.mkaku.org/articles/physics_of_space_travel.shtml Excerpt: "The first realistic attempt to analyze extra-terrestrial civilizations from the point of view of the laws of physics and the laws of thermodynamics was by Russian astrophysicist Nicolai Kardashev. He based his ranking of possible civilizations on the basis of total energy output which could be quantified and used as a guide to explore the dynamics of advanced civilizations: Type I: this civilization harnesses the energy output of an entire planet. Type II: this civilization harnesses the energy output of a star, and generates about 10 billion times the energy output of a Type I civilization. Type III: this civilization harnesses the energy output of a galaxy, or about 10 billion time the energy output of a Type II civilization." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 10:16:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77HGGnh032655; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:16:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77HGEnr032638; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:16:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:16:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050807171555.00997bd8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:15:55 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Hydraulic Jump Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been pondering the systemic resemblance between the phenomena of hot fusion/cold fusion and the phenomena of the hydraulic jump. The great thing about recognising the hierarchical nature of physical phenomena is that one can work from a level where it is clearly possible to see what is happening, to a level where there are only instrument readings as a guide. For the benefit of those Vortexians [very few I'm sure ;-) ] who may not know what a hydraulic jump is, I googled a definition. To my surprise the definition which came up was in terms of air rather than water, to wit, ================================================ Hydraulic Jump A steady disturbance in the lee of a mountain, where the airflow passing over the mountain suddenly changes from a region of low depth and high velocity to a region of high depth and low velocity. ================================================ Still, since most Vorts are probably more familiar with mountains that I am, the above definition will do nicely. As for the water case, there is an appropriate diagram of a hydraulic jump at, http://www.fao.org/docrep/X5744E/x5744eeo.gif This diagram is rather fitting for this group since it shows a vortex as the transition between the two regions, viz. the high velocity region where the speed of the water is manifest, large scale and one dimensional and the region where the speed of the water is hidden, small scale and three dimensional. Now as a first approximation we may think of the deuterium in hot fusion as being in the high velocity low pressure state in contrast to cold fusion where the material is in a low velocity high pressure state. This will certainly give us the kind of bifurcation we are looking for. It was the natural thing is to start this way with the straightforward macro kinetic energy of nuclei flying around like gas molecules. But thinking about it more profoundly I realised that I had things the wrong way around. The real action in taking place at a finer scale. It is vital to home in on the right level. One level up or down and every thing is reversed. Two levels up or down and you have things the right way round but you are hopelessly off target. It's no good jemmying the door on the fifth, third or second floor flat when the sparklers are on the fourth floor. Now the most obviously relevant levels are electric and magnetic field/flux/flow. The electric field is analogous to the high depth low velocity state since for a charged particle the electric field is isotropic, i.e. the same in all directions. The magnetic field is analogous to the low depth high velocity state since for a charged particle the magnetic field is most definitely non-isotropic. So we can now see that not only does the Beta-atmosphere pressure drop inside the Fluid Phase (using the term Fluid Phase in the hierarchical sense defined in the SST paper) lead to a drop in the repulsive electric pressure between deuterium nuclei, but it also leads to a corresponding increase in the magnetic field strength - the magnetic flux/flow. Nuclei lined up anti-parallel will be attracted to each other - will fuse - with resulting release of mass energy. Cheers, Frank Grimer ==================================== et resplenduit facies eius sicut sol ==================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 11:04:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77I46rG017499; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:04:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77I45Mo017493; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:04:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:04:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c59b7a$58b5ec00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <410-220057031115056600 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:03:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59B3F.ABC33870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59B3F.ABC33870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vortex is known to be "forward thinking"... most of the time.=20 This particular thread from last month about "Fluorescent light Bulb OU" = appears with a new twist this weekend on Slashdot, which picked up this = MSNBC story on the fluorescent light that continues to glow for over an = hour after it is turned-off... Guess you would call it ..."light after death" .... ;-) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8825455/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 Mark Jordan wrote: > > Here is a copy/paste of a related message from the freenrg-l list: >=20 > You might also be interested in knowing about the Imris' circuit > (US patent #3,781,601): >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/9fc9f =20 >=20 Thanks, Mark. A single tube 4 foot - 40 watt fluorescent shop light with electronic = ballast runs about $20.00 at Lowes. These are probably operating between 40 to 60 KHz which allows plenty of = time for the atoms/molecules to collide at the estimated 1,000 meter/sec Argon = (6.64E-26 kg) and 500 meter/sec Mercury (3.32E-25 kg) velocities (based on a 3000 K gas temperature. According to this collision calculator for Argon-Mercury or H2 (3.32E-27 = kg) -Argon etc., the Argon atom can gain a 50% increase in velocity from an elastic = collision with a Mercury atom rebounding from a wall collision at - 500 meter/second. If I didn't goof this would mean a 50% OU "kinetic energy" gain? http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/colsta.html#c4 Not much advantage in going to Hydrogen-Mercury (3000 K H2 v =3D 5000 = meter/sec) but this doesn't square with the Double Ball Drop thing: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html " If a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy = ball like a large superball, the small ball rebounds with a remarkably = high velocity, theoretically approaching three times the velocity with = which the balls strike the surface. The analysis involves the nature of = head-on elastic collisions and in particular the case of a light = projectile hitting a heavy target. Slingshot orbits used in space = exploration have features in common with this situation even though the = objects involved never touch each other." I probably ain't got my vectors added right. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59B3F.ABC33870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vortex is known to be "forward thinking"... most = of the=20 time.
 
This particular thread from last month about = "Fluorescent=20 light Bulb OU" appears with a new twist this weekend on Slashdot, which = picked=20 up this MSNBC story on the fluorescent light = that=20 continues to glow for over an hour after it is = turned-off...
 
Guess you would call it ..."light after death" = ....=20 ;-)


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id= /8825455/



----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Frederick Sparber

Mark Jordan wrote:
>
>  Here = is a=20 copy/paste of a related message from the freenrg-l list:
> =
> =20 You might also be interested in knowing about the Imris' circuit
> = (US=20 patent #3,781,601):
>
>   = http://tinyurl.com/9fc9f =20
>
Thanks, Mark.

A single tube 4 foot - 40 watt=20 fluorescent  shop light  with electronic ballast runs about=20 $20.00
at Lowes.
These are probably operating between 40 to 60 KHz = which=20 allows plenty of time for
the atoms/molecules to collide at the = estimated=20 1,000 meter/sec Argon (6.64E-26 kg) and 500 meter/sec
Mercury  = (3.32E-25=20 kg) velocities (based on a 3000 K gas temperature.

According to = this=20 collision calculator for Argon-Mercury or H2 (3.32E-27 kg) -Argon = etc.,
the=20 Argon atom can gain a 50% increase in velocity from an elastic collision = with
a Mercury atom rebounding from a wall collision at   - = 500=20 meter/second.
If I didn't goof this would mean a 50% OU "kinetic = energy"=20 gain?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/colsta.html#c4
Not=20 much advantage in going to Hydrogen-Mercury (3000 K H2  v =3D 5000 = meter/sec)=20 but
this doesn't square with the Double Ball Drop=20 thing:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/doubal.html
<= BR>" If=20 a light ball like a ping-pong ball is dropped along with a heavy ball = like a=20 large superball, the small ball rebounds with a remarkably high = velocity,=20 theoretically approaching three times the velocity with which the balls = strike=20 the surface. The analysis involves the nature of head-on elastic = collisions and=20 in particular the case of a light projectile hitting a heavy target. = Slingshot=20 orbits used in space exploration have features in common with this = situation=20 even though the objects involved never touch each other."

I = probably=20 ain't got my vectors added right. =20 :-)

Frederick
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59B3F.ABC33870-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 11:20:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77IK6W7022454; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:20:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77IK4aJ022437; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:20:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:20:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c59b7c$947a2510$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: , "Harvey Norris" References: <410-220057031115056600 earthlink.net> <001401c59b7a$58b5ec00$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Are Fluorescent light Bulbs OU ? Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:19:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One comment from the Slashdot thread - perhaps of interest to Jed Rothwell, "I have one [Fluorescent light Bulb which stays lit] in my bedroom here in Japan for the last four years." "I t is a ring florescent tube that glows like a night light after the light goes out. The light is made by NEC and is called Hotarukku (a play on the word hotaru, which is Japanese for firefly). It seems they launched the product in March 2000. http://www.nelt.co.jp/navi/la_shg/fre_shg.htm [nelt.co.jp] gives specs and has some pics showing the room lit with the light on and off. Needless to say.... another "bright idea" from Japan... (both corny and plagiarized) Jones BTW the active material appears to be **strontium** .... this has potential implicatations for both the experiments of Harvey Norris and BLP. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 12:05:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j77J4x7e003192; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:05:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j77J4wlj003183; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:04:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:04:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <5a8301c59b82$d05851f0$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000c01c59a9b$0ae93070$6401a8c0@NuDell> <200401c59acd$5fce3590$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42F59575.5040103@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 08:45:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Wesley Bruce" Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat > > The bigger loss with this linear motor design is that part of the > combustion energy is wasted slowing, stopping and reversing the > direction of the piston. There is also the possibility that thermal or > mechanical shock could demagnetize the magnet. If the coupling between the magnet and the surrounding coils is good, the magnet could be nearly stopped by the first coil, but pushed on by the gas. If the magnet approaches at high velocity, a high voltage is induced, and energy is absorbed, slowing the magnet -- but not stopping it because the induced voltage is reduced. finally the voltage will fall so low that the coupling circuits will not work. For maximum efficiency neodydmium iron magnets would be used which are very difficult to demagnetize. The device is suppoised ot use low temperature, waste heaqt gas. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 17:51:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j780owq7018185; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:51:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j780outd018166; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:50:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:50:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F6AC2B.5000904 iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:49:47 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat References: <000c01c59a9b$0ae93070$6401a8c0@NuDell> <200401c59acd$5fce3590$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <42F59575.5040103@iinet.net.au> <5a8301c59b82$d05851f0$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <5a8301c59b82$d05851f0$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3Hj38.A.tbE.vxq9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Mike in a that case they're onto something. We had a company in Brisbane with a pnumatic linear generator of similar design but they seem to have drifted from sound science to oblivion; the web sites gone. The fast way to kill a good engine is to claim you can tap ambient heat! They forgot to look up the laws of themodynamics again I guess. Mike Carrell wrote: >From: "Wesley Bruce" >Subject: Re: Engine claims to recover low-grade and waste heat > > > > > > >>The bigger loss with this linear motor design is that part of the >>combustion energy is wasted slowing, stopping and reversing the >>direction of the piston. There is also the possibility that thermal or >>mechanical shock could demagnetize the magnet. >> >> > >If the coupling between the magnet and the surrounding coils is good, the >magnet could be nearly stopped by the first coil, but pushed on by the gas. >If the magnet approaches at high velocity, a high voltage is induced, and >energy is absorbed, slowing the magnet -- but not stopping it because the >induced voltage is reduced. finally the voltage will fall so low that the >coupling circuits will not work. For maximum efficiency neodydmium iron >magnets would be used which are very difficult to demagnetize. The device is >suppoised ot use low temperature, waste heaqt gas. > >Mike Carrell > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 20:03:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7833OA8002630; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:03:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7833MNp002613; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:03:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:03:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c59bc5$acd37910$a0027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Hydraulic Jump Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 22:02:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59B9B.C37A1040"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59B9B.C37A1040 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C59B9B.C37A1040" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C59B9B.C37A1040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote... >I have been pondering the systemic resemblance between=20 the phenomena of hot fusion/cold fusion and the phenomena=20 of the hydraulic jump. The great thing about recognising=20 the hierarchical nature of physical phenomena is that one=20 can work from a level where it is clearly possible to see=20 what is happening, to a level where there are only=20 instrument readings as a guide.=20 Frank, the mention of the hydraulic jump took me back to page 300 of my = favorite book on hydraulics by George Russell, Professor of Hydraulics = , MIT, Oct 1941........ and there it was !!!=20 Reading again of the phenomena brought to mind some interesting = experiences in designing for large flume flow measurement and the havoc = the HJ can play on an unsuspecting lad that wasn't listening carefully = in class but later paid dearly for a first person education on the = matter. The profound importance of your observation of the CF/HF resemblance to = the phenomena cannot be overemphasized. I didn't see it, I sensed it but = elusive thoughts can play tricks on the meditative process so I = discarded it.=20 Thanks for the clue. One puzzle we have is how to cut character into the = mixing dispersal exit cone in order to create a pattern that properly = directs the mixed oxidant within a non standard regime. BINGO !! IDEA = !!!. Create a hydraulic jump to induce the desired shape of the liquid = discharge pattern. Hopefully ,your post may trigger another mind that has CF on the brain < = grin> Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C59B9B.C37A1040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer wrote...

>I have been pondering the systemic resemblance between
the = phenomena=20 of hot fusion/cold fusion and the phenomena
of the hydraulic jump. = The great=20 thing about recognising
the hierarchical nature of physical = phenomena is=20 that one
can work from a level where it is clearly possible to see =
what=20 is happening, to a level where there are only
instrument readings as = a=20 guide.

Frank, the mention of the hydraulic jump took me back to page 300 of = my=20 favorite book on hydraulics  by George Russell, Professor of = Hydraulics ,=20 MIT, Oct 1941........ and there it was !!! 

 Reading again of the phenomena brought to mind some interesting = experiences in designing for large flume flow measurement and the havoc = the HJ=20 can play on an unsuspecting lad that wasn't listening carefully in class = but=20 later paid dearly for a first person education on the matter.

The  profound importance of your observation of the CF/HF = resemblance to=20 the phenomena cannot be overemphasized. I didn't see it, I sensed it but = elusive=20 thoughts can play tricks on the meditative process so I discarded it. =

Thanks for the clue. One puzzle we have is how to cut = character=20 into the mixing dispersal exit cone in order to create a  pattern = that=20 properly directs the mixed oxidant within  a non standard=20 regime.  BINGO !!  IDEA !!!. Create a hydraulic jump to induce = the=20 desired shape of the liquid discharge pattern.

Hopefully ,your post may trigger another mind that has CF on the = brain <=20 grin>

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C59B9B.C37A1040-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59B9B.C37A1040 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c59bc5$ac4d0b00$a0027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C59B9B.C37A1040-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 7 23:47:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j786lEul009424; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 23:47:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j786lCAE009414; Sun, 7 Aug 2005 23:47:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 23:47:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 01:46:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Michio Kaku on FTL Travel X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42f6ffdd.2963.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.68 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: what I like about the theoretical physicist, Hal Puthoff is that he has one foot on the ground. I'm not sure that Dr. Kaku has either foot on the ground. For one thing, If you somehow managed to liberate that sort of energy, how would you channel it? then there is the phenomena of education not making you a good person, it just makes you an educated barbarian. The first realistic attempt to analyze extra-terrestrial >Type I: this civilization harnesses the energy output of an entire planet. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 00:18:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j787IGSQ020761; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:18:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j787IC4a020724; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:18:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:18:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:17:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42f7071c.2989.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.68 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >The myths of Hiroshima > >By Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin > >08/05/05 Los Angeles Times > >The hard truth is that the atomic bombings were unnecessary. A million lives >were not saved. >KAI BIRD and MARTIN J. SHERWIN are coauthors of "American Prometheus: The > This speculation is revisionist history at it's trashy worst. It is impossible to prove a negative. What is certain is that the Japanese people were prepared to stand behind their government which had a history of encouraging a fight to the death, verses surrender. It is also certain that an American president who had allowed an invasion to go forward with the resulting bloodbath, while sitting on several atom bombs, would have been turned out to pasture at the next election. Ditto for having prolonged the suffering of our prisoners. It is also a fact that the L A Slimes is losing subscribers, big time. Last spring they published as news the propaganda given to one of their reporters who uncritically published the comments of a North Korean "businessman." Now there's an oxymoron. This prompted Hugh Hewitt, www.hughhewitt.com to cancel his subscription and encourage everyone listening to his show do likewise. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 00:42:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j787fkT0028282; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:42:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j787fg54028241; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:41:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:41:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:41:16 -0500 Subject: The un wants control of the Internet X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42f70c9c.29ae.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.68 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j787fHxh028123 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From the Tsxpayers league www.taxpayerleague.org 4. The United Nations – hiding from the world’s problems since 1945. It’s good to see one of our US Senators using his office for the benefit of his constituents and the country. Last week, Senator Norm Coleman correctly labeled a recent UN plan to take over control of the internet from the US as “a giant and foolhardy step backwards.” No kidding. Because what’s better than worldwide internet commerce regulated by autocrats bent on global nationalization or free speech decisions being made by those who use tanks to run down human rights protestors? Thank you, Senator Coleman – proving once again that “sacred cows” make the best hamburgers. And people in hell want icewater! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 02:03:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7892sJC020674; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:03:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7892kJh020630; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:02:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:02:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Intelligent design, RE: [ BOB PARKS-WHATSNEW] Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:00:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7892Njv020496 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, Sorry if I don't fully participate for long. There are so many messages on Vortex. What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves industrial waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. In fact we're doing it right now as we take our first steps into GM. People don't seem to realise you have to have imagination to do science and maths, all the logic and erudition, number crunching is par for the course and any journeyman (or woman) can do that. Remi. ________________________________________ From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of RC Macaulay Sent: 07 August 2005 04:00 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [ BOB PARKS-WHATSNEW] John Coviello wrote.. >This week's column could have been called What's Not New.  Government and politics mixing in America, what's new about that?  Unfortunately, our current crop of politicians really seems to be using religion for political advantage in a cynical way to win votes.  Are people tired of this already? Time we sent the religious righters back to wherever they came from and start running our government to benefit all for a change? I read the whats new article by Bob Parks with interest ,in particular regarding the comments about " intelligent design". The idea of intelligent design comes from university campus student science groups. The ideas represent the students challenge to the university to peer review the Darwin junk science theory or discard it. Ever look at Parks picture posted at U of M ???. Notice the set of his jaw ? Me thinks he protestest too much. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 02:06:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7895acM021851; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:05:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7895XjO021818; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:05:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:05:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: BLP in PhysicsWeb Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:05:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just being magnanimous. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Sent: 05 August 2005 13:30 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: BLP in PhysicsWeb Vorts, On the institute of physics membership mag. http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/9/8/4/1 They listen eventually if you have enough patience and do good work. Regards, Remi. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 03:48:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78All4S020352; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 03:48:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78Alfb9020324; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 03:47:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 03:47:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IH5KTjjqlQD13bHGpk1HxGvZch58PfHTpM9h/0PGhBptSSJ1Tqc/4lUU9j7Z1Pli; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200581894726870 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bladeless Turbine Thermal Efficiency Limit Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 04:47:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940270fd1747af45d4d24cfc2b983ec53a7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.130 Resent-Message-ID: <8fWuuB.A.d9E.Nhz9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII My rocket science Oracle tells me that an orifice or nozzle Will Not Allow flow of fluid at velocities greater than the velocity of sound of the working fluid at a given temperature (sound velocity is independent of pressure). IOW, The kinetic energy 1/2 mv^2 for a gram of steam has to be limited to substantially less than the ~ 2260 joule/gram heat of vaporization (enthalpy) of the steam. Steam at 134 C: 1/2 mv^2 <<< = 2260 joule or 0.5 * 1.0e-3 * 494^2 =122 joule <<< = 2260 joule Or for most vaporized fluids the most one could expect is about 5% (or less) ROI. OTOH, with gases that are already vaporized the energy investment is substantially less..... http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/souspe.html shows that a jet with 1000 C can't get above Mach 2.7. Jets and rockets do work at supersonic speeds. It seems that Hot Air is more efficient than Hot Water. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

My rocket science Oracle tells me that an orifice or nozzle
Will Not Allow flow of fluid at velocities greater than the velocity
of sound of the working fluid at a given temperature (sound velocity is independent of pressure).
 
IOW, The  kinetic energy 1/2 mv^2  for a gram of steam has to be limited to
substantially less than the ~ 2260 joule/gram heat of vaporization (enthalpy) of the
steam.
 
Steam at 134 C:
1/2 mv^2  <<< =  2260 joule 
 
or 0.5 * 1.0e-3 * 494^2 =122 joule <<< =  2260 joule
 
Or for most vaporized fluids the most one could expect is about 5% (or less) ROI.
 
OTOH, with gases that are already vaporized the energy investment is
substantially less.....
 
 
shows that a jet with 1000 C can't get above Mach 2.7.
 
Jets and rockets do work at supersonic speeds.  
 
It seems that Hot Air is more efficient than Hot Water.   :-)
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 04:43:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78BgxJV008302; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 04:43:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78BgrVA008244; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 04:42:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 04:42:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=s6SauLgf9+GwH/KHs3+2tPcYCnq+cq6G2GYjSvgpF00UWmNDZ7ihZFavrpLrZKaJ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005818103826170 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bladeless Turbine Thermal Efficiency Limit Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 05:38:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405b22269fe6f50abdb721592f1440f47a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.73 Resent-Message-ID: <9DOR4C.A.qAC.7U09CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII IAS claims: http://iaus.com/turbine.htm "Tests conducted over the past 12 months have shown that the technology offers a significant improvement over traditional systems. Test results are from actual on-site tests by the company at various geothermal power plant facilities. When operating at hot water temperatures of 300-500F and 100-700 psig, using either single phase or bi-phase flow, conservative numbers show that IAS's turbine can produce a minimum of 20% more power than today's expensive multi-stage turbine under the same conditions." "How Does the Propulsion Turbine Work?" "Rather than relying on turbine blades to spin the turbine cylinder, IAS's Propulsion Turbine is designed to turn the cylinder without blades. To do that, IAS's patent-pending bladeless turbine utilizes a rocket nozzle to direct steam-a very different approach than traditional turbines." "Rockets, widely recognized as the most efficient engines, are typically propelled by steam. Based on preliminary tests, the IAS-designed rocket nozzle 99 percent efficient, and its net thermal efficiency is above 75 percent when traveling at 50 percent of the velocity of the steam exiting the nozzle. This efficiency continues to increase as the velocity of the rocket nozzle exceeds 50 percent of the velocity of the exiting steam." If the kinetic energy of the steam (Velocity v is Limited to the Mach Number of the Nozzle at Those Temperatures) 1/2 mv^2 joule/gram << = 2260 joule/gram is all converted to the rotational kinetic energy of the rotor, how can they do it? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

IAS claims:
 
 
"Tests conducted over the past 12 months have shown that the technology offers a significant improvement over traditional systems. Test results are from actual on-site tests by the company at various geothermal power plant facilities. When operating at hot water temperatures of 300-500F and 100-700 psig, using either single phase or bi-phase flow, conservative numbers show that IAS's turbine can produce a minimum of 20% more power than today's expensive multi-stage turbine under the same conditions."
 

"How Does the Propulsion Turbine Work?"

"Rather than relying on turbine blades to spin the turbine cylinder, IAS's Propulsion Turbine is designed to turn the cylinder without blades. To do that, IAS's patent-pending bladeless turbine utilizes a rocket nozzle to direct steam-a very different approach than traditional turbines."

"Rockets, widely recognized as the most efficient engines, are typically propelled by steam. Based on preliminary tests, the IAS-designed rocket nozzle 99 percent efficient, and its net thermal efficiency is above 75 percent when traveling at 50 percent of the velocity of the steam exiting the nozzle. This efficiency continues to increase as the velocity of the rocket nozzle exceeds 50 percent of the velocity of the exiting steam."

If the kinetic energy of the steam (Velocity v is Limited to the Mach Number of the Nozzle at Those Temperatures) 

1/2 mv^2 joule/gram  << = 2260 joule/gram

is all converted to the rotational kinetic energy of the rotor, how can they do it?

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 05:56:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78CuR5c007711; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 05:56:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78CuPp7007695; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 05:56:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 05:56:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=aRyRsXyNojRQw4bjLl9QuNtOsn/FtUAYMUi8877t2/9eB7oUa/4RsNBTQhxFvxyP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200581811561970 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bladeless Turbine Thermal Efficiency Limit Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 06:56:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e02a067008a9e902b8aa0c117cf6bacf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.5 Resent-Message-ID: <3FzrFB.A.L4B.4Z19CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The 20.8 Joule/Mole K specific heat of air (0.717 * 1000 K = 717 Joule required to raise a gram of air to a temperature of ~1800 F) is a lot less than the 40680 joule/mole (2260 joule/gram) needed to make steam. Jones Beene should appreciate the specific heat of H2 curve on this link. :-) http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/shegas.html#c1 IOW, I think the IAS Bladeless Turbine would be more efficient working off Hot Air. No? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The 20.8 Joule/Mole K specific heat of air (0.717 * 1000 K = 717 Joule required
 to raise  a gram of air to a temperature of ~1800 F) is a lot less than the 40680 joule/mole
(2260 joule/gram) needed to make steam.
 
Jones Beene should appreciate the specific heat of H2 curve on this link.  :-)
 
 
IOW, I think the IAS Bladeless Turbine  would be more efficient working off Hot Air.  No?
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 07:45:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78EiYlY019426; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:44:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78EiTX1019354; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:44:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:44:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808103127.044d3470 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:44:04 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anything New With iESiUSA? In-Reply-To: <019701c59a1a$60f58ee0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> References: <019701c59a1a$60f58ee0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello wrote: >I know it's still a long shot, but some of us are still pinning our hopes >on iESiUSA to pull us out of this long cold fusion slump. Any late word >on the goings on at iESiUSA? My understanding is that they are going to keep things under wraps until March 2006, for reasons I cannot begin to imagine. I expect their business plan and reasoning resembles that the Wright brothers from 1905 to 1908, when they stopped flying, stopped most development work (except for the engines), tried to keep a patented design secret, and tried to sell the airplane to governments and others who had no interest in buying it. Most aviation historians consider these decisions tragically misguided. Harry Combs wrote: ". . . the brothers entered into a period that today we must regard is bordering on the tragic. For it was then that the rights made a definite decision to embark on a course that many consider to have been detrimental to the continuing development of aviation, not only at that time, but for several years to come. . . . . . . from November 1905 until May 1908 the Wright brothers were so adamant in their distrust of individuals, groups, and governments, that they stopped all flying and never left the ground for the same period -- as we shall see, nearly a catastrophic decision." - H. Combs, "Kill Devill Hill," p. 248, p. 251 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 08:09:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78F91Jc029321; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:09:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78F8wIj029282; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:08:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:08:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:08:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200508080908.AA238289568 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: , Subject: Re: Intelligent design, RE: [ BOB PARKS-WHATSNEW] X-Mailer: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi said: >What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of >extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves industrial >waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God is not a requirement for ID to be under consideration. It is possible given the current state of knowledge, to suppose that perhaps protoplasmic life cannot self-assemble under the assumed time-constraint of the age of the Universe, but perhaps some sort of, maybe, electromagnetic organism could, which could then supply the needed design to the organic molecules tha make up us. I don't think this is what happened, but as a simple exercise in logic it cannot be ruled out. Jeffery D. Kooistra From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 08:36:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78FaQAv010260; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:36:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78FaPV7010249; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:36:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:36:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c59c2e$e23797d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <200508080908.AA238289568 mail1.myexcel.com> Subject: Re: Intelligent design Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:36:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Kooistra > He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God > is not a requirement for ID to be under consideration. Except for the obvious semantic problem.... whatever that ID impetus or intelligent "force" turns out to be - the "hidden influence" which is finally ascertained to be the formative influence for life, then that force will then be labeled as "God." Which of course, is the way it should be. Having an accurate portrayal of "God" far outwieghs the poblem of letting religious bigots into science. Let them have their say ... so long as they agree that the picuture that emerges out of the expanded inquiry then becomes the true God and NOT the picture that some ancient and misinformed prophet managed to scribble down on goat skin. BTW that force in question - the one which is capable of influencuing raw chemicals to assemple into anti-entropic structures, and then influences at every subsequent stage - the "intellignet" development of more-and-more anti-entropic features into what becomes "life"... that force looks very much like a collection of "memes" ... not exactly comparable to the "all-souls" picture of divinity coming out of the first "Enlightenment," but rahter the "all-memes" picture which is to come out of the the next Enlightenment. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 09:01:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78G0Hdh020891; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:00:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78G0EP7020858; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:00:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:00:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Jvr+MvFulJzJTwEbB+Y/tTgbf6/BYsXb6WDcKo/iT1SIUSBC+z46fD+d6Zc9fCPP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005818145957720 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; What if Hero Had Gas? Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:59:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94035c14be729efc77501845ca48713cc7f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.210 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII According to this Flow Calculator: http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp A mole/second of Air heated in a sealed Solar Box to (366 K) 200 F 20.8 joule/mole K would exit a 3/16 inch diameter tangential orifice-nozzle on a rotor at up to 390 meters/second generating about 2.0 kilowatts. What? http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/souspe.html Bladeless Hot Air Turbines vs Solar Towers for power generation? I must've goofed somewhere. ??? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

According to this Flow Calculator:
 
 
A mole/second of Air heated in a sealed Solar Box to (366 K) 200 F 20.8 joule/mole K would
exit a 3/16 inch diameter tangential orifice-nozzle on a rotor at up to 390 meters/second generating
about 2.0 kilowatts.  What?
 
 
 
Bladeless Hot Air  Turbines  vs Solar Towers for power generation?
 
I must've goofed somewhere.  ???
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 09:07:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78G6qDh029491; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:07:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78G6PpN028858; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:06:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:06:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808105626.044dc010 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:05:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima In-Reply-To: References: <046801c59afa$fe931240$debc050a annaophb5ed3f4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j78G5uK6028534 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >it was based were historically inaccurate. For one thing, the Smithsonian >downplayed the casualties, saying only that the bombs "caused many tens of >thousands of deaths" and that Hiroshima was "a definite military target." Hiroshima had some of largest army and navy installations in Japan. Nagasaki was and still is one of the largest shipyards in the world. The supertankers I saw under construction there dwarfed the whole downtown area. They built the superbattleship Musashi there, and recently they have constructed gigantic cruiseships, as well as wind turbines and solar cells. >Americans were also told that use of the bombs "led to the immediate >surrender of Japan and made unnecessary the planned invasion of the Japanese >home islands." But it's not that straightforward. Nothing in history a straightforward. >As Tsuyoshi Hasegawa has shown definitively in his new book, "Racing the >Enemy" — and many other historians have long argued — it was the Soviet >Union's entry into the Pacific war on Aug. 8, two days after the Hiroshima >bombing, that provided the final "shock" that led to Japan's capitulation. That is unquestionably true. Every surviving account of the emperor's counsel emphasizes that the Russian attack was the straw that broke the camel's back. However, whether that alone would have been sufficient, and whether they would have surrendered without the nuclear attacks is impossible to know. The final cabinet vote was a tie -- all of the civilians in favor of surrender, all of the military leaders against it. The emperor broke the tie, voting himself for the first and last time in Japanese history. My guess is that there would have been at least one or two more large battles: one in Kyushu against the US, and one in Hokkaido or Tohoku against the Russians. The Japanese still had a million trained soldiers and ungodly amounts of ammunition and fortified bunkers in Kyushu that would have survived a nuclear attack. (Everyone could see that is where the attack would come.) >The fact is that atomic bomb warning leaflets were dropped on >Japanese cities, but only after Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been destroyed. That is ridiculous. They dropped leaflets continuously, starting in the fall of 1944. It was one of the most effective weapons of the U.S., since the purpose of the bombing was to frighten the civilians and get them to leave the cities and stop weapons production. It worked. >The hard truth is that the atomic bombings were unnecessary. A million lives >were not saved. No one can possibly say how many lives were saved. If the war had dragged on another six months, hundreds of thousands would have starved to death. (Several thousand people starved to death after the surrender, including ~20,000 Japanese P.O.W.s in Southeast Asia, who were half dead when they surrendered.) The invading Russians would have killed hundreds of thousands more, as they did in Manchuria. >The bomb was dropped, as J. Robert Oppenheimer, scientific director of the >Manhattan Project, said in November 1945, on "an essentially defeated >enemy." No one disputes that. The problem was, even though they were defeated they did not want to stop fighting. Roughly 2 million Japanese people had been killed, or 3% of the population. But they might have fought on and lost another 7 million people (10% of the population). During WWII, Germany lost 7 million people (9%) and Russia lost 25.5 million (13%). In the U.S. Civil War, the Union states lost 1.4% of the population and the Confederacy lost 2.5%. There have been wars in modern history in Central America in which half the male population was killed off, and medieval European wars which depopulated entire fiefdoms. >And they used it on Aug. 6 even though they had agreed among themselves as >they returned home from the Potsdam Conference on Aug. 3 that the Japanese >were looking for peace. They could hardly disagree about that! The Japanese government was sending them cables asking for peace, and they were tapping and decoding the Japanese ambassador's correspondence from Moscow to Tokyo. The only issue was the terms of the peace. The Japanese did not want to surrender their colonies, allow an occupation, war crimes trials, any change in the status of the emperor, or any changes to their constitution or government. (They were willing to surrender their military forces and leave China.) Within days after the bombing, many columnists and opinion makers began to speculate that the real reason the US dropped the bomb was to send a message to Moscow. I have read many of Truman's papers, biographies and the books that he himself wrote and I have not found a one sentence to back this up. Truman described his motivations and actions in detail. If he had felt this way he would have said so. He was a hard-line cold warrior. He did not hesitate to go to war in Korea. There is no question he was willing to sacrifice lives in the fight against communism: American, Koreans and Chinese lives, and Japanese lives too. He summed up his own views about Hiroshima many years after the war with a single sentence, a quote from Macbeth: "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." That seems like an excellent summary to me. That pretty much describes all wars. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 09:13:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78GCrfO032502; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:13:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78GCqRX032484; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:12:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:12:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808120721.044e0e10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:12:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Intelligent design In-Reply-To: <200508080908.AA238289568 mail1.myexcel.com> References: <200508080908.AA238289568 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: > >What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of > >extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves industrial > >waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. > >He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God is not a >requirement for ID to be under consideration. Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have said before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to another planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have evolved entirely by natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there is no reason to think it did not happen again on earth. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 10:07:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78H6EXX026001; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:06:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78H68pr025936; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:06:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:06:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:05:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Bladeless Turbine Thermal Efficiency Limit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The company promoting the design asserted "Rockets, widely recognized as the most efficient engines, are typically propelled by steam. Based on Is that BS I smell? This is the first time I've heard that assertion, I would think that it would be quite the opposite. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 10:37:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78Hahpt008227; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:36:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78HaaHu007971; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:36:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:36:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:35:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Intelligent design Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: And Jed Rothwell replied; > >What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of > >extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves industrial > >waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. > >He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God is not a >requirement for ID to be under consideration. >Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have said >before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to another >planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have evolved entirely by >natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there is no reason to think it >did not happen again on earth. I've got to admit that your's in an excellent argument Jed. My only response is that G-d is an energy based phenomena, and the Earth is physical. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 10:43:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78HhGCu013453; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:43:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78HhDL5013409; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:43:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:43:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YRn07A+/B5QJZWncOLNYJshRUeLZEQpnAZryvZK1taPfL+qlaTSlPhFpBWenSlqe; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005818164256620 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; What if Hero Had Gas? Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:42:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940213ffb2a339b28cfade65c65e0fcbf81350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.125 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I wrote: > According to this Flow Calculator: > http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp > A mole/second of Air heated in a sealed Solar Box to (366 K) 200 F 20.8 joule/mole K would > exit a 3/16 inch diameter tangential orifice-nozzle on a rotor at up to 390 meters/second generating > about 2.0 kilowatts. Make the high pressure 1.2 atmospheres and the low 1.0 atmospheres. The volume about 1.0 CFM 3 PSIG for 2 kilowatt hours requires a Solar Box with a least 1800 cubic feet of air at 200 F 3.0 PSIG per /KW-HR. The Solar Box can be an enclosed pit loaded with coarse gravel with a ballasted-sealed floating "solar lid" so that a quasi-steady gas pressure of ~ 3 PSIG can be valved from the pits through piping to the Bladeless Hot Gas Turbine to maintain continuous air flow. On a good day 30,000 Kilowatt-hrs per hectare sized (328 ft square) pit about 3 meters (10 feet) deep? > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/souspe.html > Bladeless Hot Air Turbines vs Solar Towers for power generation? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I wrote:
 
> According to this Flow Calculator:
 
 
> A mole/second of Air heated in a sealed Solar Box to (366 K) 200 F 20.8 joule/mole K would
> exit a 3/16 inch diameter tangential orifice-nozzle on a rotor at up to 390 meters/second generating
> about 2.0 kilowatts. 
 
Make the high pressure 1.2 atmospheres and the low 1.0 atmospheres.
 
The volume about 1.0 CFM 3 PSIG for 2 kilowatt hours requires a Solar Box with a least 1800
cubic feet of air at 200 F  3.0 PSIG  per /KW-HR.
 
The Solar Box can be an enclosed pit loaded with coarse gravel with a ballasted-sealed floating
"solar lid" so that a quasi-steady gas pressure of ~ 3 PSIG can be valved from the pits through piping
to the Bladeless Hot Gas Turbine to maintain continuous air flow.
 
On a good day 30,000 Kilowatt-hrs per hectare sized  (328 ft square) pit about 3 meters (10 feet) deep?
 
 
 
 
> Bladeless Hot Air  Turbines  vs Solar Towers for power generation?
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 10:44:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78HiJiT013936; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:44:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78HiHEh013905; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:44:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:44:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050808174356.00985790 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:43:56 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hydraulic Jump Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's some trenchant Shoulders' stuff which relates to the reduced repulsion, increased attraction of deuterium under reduced Beta-atmosphere environmental pressure. ===================================================== >From the earliest realm of electrical investigation using cat hair and amber through the more technically advanced era of silk and a glass rod, it was determined that like charges always repel. What should have been a temporary guideline using this data was erroneously cast in cement as a sacred truth and immutable law by fakirs crying from the scientific tower of Babel. This belief persisted throughout the very technical age of arc and spark investigation in spite of outstanding but unheeded evidence of charge accretion appearing everywhere in the so-called cathode spot phenomenon. The old law of like charge repulsion is good but not all-encompassing, because at any one time, there are likely more free electrons adhering to each other in this world than there are being repelled by each other. Electron clusters are ubiquitous. When the electron clustering effect was first found by the author, its mention to all others was treated as scientific sacrilege as the message from the fakir was still echoing through the halls after these many years. The message here is: Believe what your senses tell you and not what others say. What I see is that the like charge between electrons more often attracts than repels -- whenever the spacing between them is small. ====================================================== And where does the reduced pressure come from in this instance. Well if one visualizes the electrons in a raging ZPE ocean then the sloshing about between the electrons will lead on average to a net Bernoulli pressure drop and a net B-a pressure forcing the electrons together. The important point that Shoulders brings to the cold fusion table is that repulsion of like charges is not fixed like the laws of the Medes and Persians. What is sauce for electrons is sauce also for protons. If electrons can cluster then so also can deuterons, especially considering the fact that the environment within a metal must be vastly different from the environment outside. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 13:05:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78K5WYi008745; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:05:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78K5Uts008726; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:05:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:05:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:04:40 -0600 Message-Id: <200508081404.AA213647844 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: , Subject: Re: Intelligent design X-Mailer: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones said: >Except for the obvious semantic problem.... whatever that ID >impetus or intelligent "force" turns out to be - the "hidden >influence" which is finally ascertained to be the formative >influence for life, then that force will then be labeled as "God." Why? If some day people make intelligent robots, which by definition did not self-assemble, they would not be obligated to call humans God--Humans would simply be another link in the chain God used to make them (if they happened to be religious robots). And Jed said: >Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have said >before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to another >planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have evolved entirely by >natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there is no reason to think it >did not happen again on earth. Annoyed or not, one of the questions evolution tries to answer (or is supposed to try to answer) is whether or not life such as we are even CAN evolve on its own. It either can or it can't--this is a worthwhile thing to know. If it can't, then science should go in search of that intelligence which did the designing--and that intelligence in no way has to be God for that logic to hold, as Jones incorrectly supposes. The second half of your comment simply assumes that God is unnecessary, but it doesn't tell us whether or not protoplasmic life can evolve on its own. That is why I specifically said perhaps Electromagnetic organisms. Of course, panspermia alreadly suggests life began somewhere other than on Earth. Finally, ID isn't supposed to solve anything--it is supposed to open up the debate to a wider range of hypotheses. Of course, there are Fundamentalist groups trying to sneak in Creationism (capital C) to the public schools under the guise of ID. But so what? Special interest groups do that all the time. Those who oppose them would do themselves a big favor if they would simply co-op the idea themselves, admit that "one of the things we try to find out in biology is whether or not it is even possible for life to begin on its own," and then go on from there teaching exactly what they do now anyway. Jones also said this stuff: >BTW that force in question - the one which is capable of >influencuing raw chemicals to assemple into anti-entropic >structures, and then influences at every subsequent stage - the >"intellignet" development of more-and-more anti-entropic features >into what becomes "life"... that force looks very much like a >collection of "memes"... etc. Well, maybe that force does, but it doesn't look anything like the God of Christians, Jews, or Muslims. If "God" is just another part of the Universe but not the Creator of it and outside of it, why worship him/it at all? Jeffery D. Kooistra From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 13:30:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78KTqXG021686; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:30:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78KTkaO021615; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:29:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:29:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808161917.044d7410 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:29:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Intelligent design In-Reply-To: <200508081404.AA213647844 mail1.myexcel.com> References: <200508081404.AA213647844 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1Xa7BC.A.nRF.5C89CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: >Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have evolved entirely by > >natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there is no reason to think it > >did not happen again on earth. > >Annoyed or not, one of the questions evolution tries to answer (or is >supposed to try to answer) is whether or not life such as we are even CAN >evolve on its own. It either can or it can't--this is a worthwhile thing >to know. If life cannot evolve on its own, then where did the extraterrestrials come from? Don't say "some other extraterrestrials planted the seed for them." Somewhere back in the chain, some intelligent creature capable of interstellar space travel must have evolved on its own, without artificial outside influences. One hypothesis would be that the original life form at the beginning of the chain evolved naturally, but it is quite different from us. For some reason it created us with biochemistry completely different from its own, that could not have evolved independently and naturally. This is somewhat analogous to domesticated maize (corn). Natural maize could not have seeds jammed so closely together. I find that hypothesis so far-fetched it is absurd. Also, it is unnecessary because there is actually no evidence -- and no reason to think -- that biological organs and functions did not evolve, no matter how complex they may seem. In species still living there are precursor forms of all of the so-called irreducibly complex organs, such as the eye. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 14:21:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78LLLjP015332; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:21:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78LLJBk015313; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:21:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:21:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 07:20:54 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050806202740.EUQ3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050806202740.EUQ3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.187] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:20:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j78LKxNx015151 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 6 Aug 2005 16:27:40 -0400: Hi, [snip] >I suspect DiHydrino Oxide is at least as poisonous as H2O1. I oft wonder if it can exist. I certainly would guess it to be somewhat higher in polarization than the normal molecule since the 2Hy atoms should be closer to each other. It doesn't exist because the energy required to oxidize even a first level hydrino is at least 10 times larger than any normal chemical bond energy. In short, oxygen doesn't have what it takes to remove an electron from a hydrino. It could remove an electron from early level hydrino hydride, but in so doing, the hydrinohydride would become a neutral hydrino, and wouldn't be bound to the oxygen. So rest easy, your water is just water. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 14:24:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78LNtlS016381; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78LNrHS016361; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:23:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:23:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c59c5f$6bfa9e60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <200508081404.AA213647844 mail1.myexcel.com> Subject: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:23:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I declare...this ID stuff is getting interesting, but is moving far enough off-topic to offend many readers - maybe most. Nevertheless, after adding the OT caveat to the subject line - I will attempt to show the breakdown in logic of both Jeff and Jed. It is not hard to find ;-) >>Except for the obvious semantic problem.... whatever that ID >>impetus or intelligent "force" turns out to be - the "hidden >>influence" which is finally ascertained to be the formative >>influence for life, then that force will then be labeled as >>"God." > Why? If some day people make intelligent robots, which by > definition did not self-assemble, they would not be obligated to > call humans God-- Whoa... since when did "obligation" enter the picture for robots? It is only an obligation if it is programmed that way. The "God concept" is mostly about the human mental process and its instinctual (pre-programmed) evolutionary underpinnings, as Freud and others pointed out - i.e. one way that the "pack mentality" gets expressed in modern society. Notice the coincidence of Id and ID.... Robots will not suffer from this problem, unless we explicitly program into them our own developmental weaknesses. We are born with an Id (instincts) - and a capacity for Superego - more akin to the 'herd' mentality (and the "follow-the-leader-of-the-pack, at all costs, the kind of overwhelming compulsion that keeps idiots in public office who shouldn't be behind bars). The superego is more herd mentality than any real 'sense of community,' or more specifically it is the imago of paternal dominance, which is easily translated into love of God, once the individual reaches a certain age (the age when he can see that the real-father is way too frail to be the idealized-father. the imago of parental (paternal) authority Jeff continues - "Humans would simply be another link in the chain God used to make them (if they happened to be religious robots). So... we are to some extent lesser gods already, aren't we? ... but we all knew that from the scriptures. And Jed said: "Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have said before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to another planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have evolved entirely by natural forces." Huh? What makes you think so? There is no evidence of "natural" evolution anywhere. Randomness, it should be added, is too big an obstacle for any kind of unaided evolution to overomce. Statisticians have actually attempted to prove this - but then again, statisticians can prove anything. Evolution is stochastic - not random - huge difference. Actually a huge two letter difference = ID. JR: "Since it happened somewhere there is no reason to think it did not happen again on earth." Whoa...we have yet to establish any evidence whatsoever that it happened elsewhere. That argument of random-no-design is totally empty. A figment of someone's imagination. Note: any stochastic process is FAR from truly random, although *always* partly random. Jeff added, "Finally, ID isn't supposed to solve anything--it is supposed to open up the debate to a wider range of hypotheses." On that we agree, but then again, if you appreciate open-minded re-appraisals of the god-concept - then why did you add "Well, maybe that force [composite-meme]does [provide ID], but it doesn't look anything like the God of Christians, Jews, or Muslims." On that we strongly disagree. I think there is almost a tautology of being able, on closer re-examination, to find all images and triats of God through lesser (cultural) accumulations of memes. Science is merely adding more sophisticated memes to the equation. And finally - the $64 question: If "God" is just another part of the Universe but not the Creator of it and outside of it, why worship him/it at all? Freud would say it is not a question of "why" as you (any individual) really have zero real choice in the matter... at least until the individual is able to give up something major - not exactly the ego, as traditional religion would have it, but instead - the super-ego. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 15:38:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78Mc4XI013804; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:38:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78MbqJl013727; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:37:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:37:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808180112.044e03d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:37:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design In-Reply-To: <001e01c59c5f$6bfa9e60$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <200508081404.AA213647844 mail1.myexcel.com> <001e01c59c5f$6bfa9e60$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-gsLUC.A.bWD._699CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >JR: "Since it happened somewhere there is no reason to think it did not >happen again on earth." > >Whoa...we have yet to establish any evidence whatsoever that it happened >elsewhere. You misunderstand my argument, which was admittedly terse. I meant that: IF we postulate some other species seeded earth with life in an artificial (or intelligent) manner THEN we have to ask how that other life form appeared. Did some other form of life seed that one? Bad answer. Somewhere back in the chain, at some point, some form of life had to appear on its own, without artificial assistance from any pre-existing form of life. That first form of life in the chain must have evolved, since there no other viable scientific theory could explain its origin. Waving your hand and declaring the the first link in the chain was a product of invisible "intelligence" is like claiming there may be some unspecified error in a cold fusion experiment. Neither statement can be tested or falsified, so both are meaningless. Gene Mallove wrote a book about this subject, by the way: "The Quickening Universe." Although I did not say life "happened" elsewhere, in point of fact, it seems very likely life has evolved independently on trillions of other planets, including -- perhaps -- Mars. But it seems extremely unlikely that extraterrestrials have crossed interstellar space to visit us. Given the speed of light and the latest theories about which stars are likely to support life (only a tiny fraction of the total), there are too many target stars. Imagine it is 500,000 BC, and there are few hundred thousand primitive people on earth. What are the chances that one will go to the beach and examine one particular grain of sand, out of all the grains of sand available? That is approximately how likely it is that some space-faring civilization has visited and examined our planet. In any case, if any school of Intelligent Design is viable, I think it must be this one, and I wholeheartedly support both their petition and their religion: http://www.venganza.org/ I have nothing more to say about this! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 16:38:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j78NbVif000752; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:37:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j78NbRaa000722; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:37:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:37:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <05bb01c59c72$1127e840$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <200508081404.AA213647844 mail1.myexcel.com> <001e01c59c5f$6bfa9e60$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20050808180112.044e03d0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:36:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05B8_01C59C37.64486E90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05B8_01C59C37.64486E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Jed Rothwell"=20 >>Whoa...we have yet to establish any evidence whatsoever that it = happened elsewhere. =20 > You misunderstand my argument, which was admittedly terse. I meant = that: =20 > IF we postulate some other species seeded earth with life in an = artificial=20 > (or intelligent) manner THEN we have to ask how that other life form = appeared. =20 > Did some other form of life seed that one? Bad answer. Somewhere back = in=20 > the chain, at some point, some form of life had to appear on its own,=20 > without artificial assistance from any pre-existing form of life. The logical error here seems to be in confusing the "physical" (time = delineated) with the "nonphysical" (timeless influence). ID is the = characteristic of a nonphysical and timeless influence. There is no need = for a pre-existeing life form at all when there is a timeless = pre-existing formative *influence.* Secondly, there is no assurance that we even had a physical "beginning" = anyway - or that there really was a "big bang" ... but even if there = was, the hidden meme-like influence, which is one way to envision ID (or = spirituality) would survive the cyclical big crunch or big bang or = whatever. "It" has always existed, as difficult as that concept is for = humans to grasp. IOW there is no chance for life to "appear on its own," even if that was = possible in a first instance because... at least in this understanding = of ultimate reality, that force is prexistent and eternal. It was = already present when the very first planet capable of supporting life = cooled out of the fireball - if there was one. There is a huge trade-off here. You have to give up all the grandiose = business about "all-powerful" in an immediate context - and all of that = other hyperbole which comes from ancient dogma, and accept the fact that = divinity works very slowly. The universe is incredibly vast in the = present tense but even far more overwhelming in its perpetual = repetition, that there is plenty of room for both a minimal and awesome = presence to coexist when you stop the clock. This is a force that = ordains, not in megalomaniacal haste, but in millineal meticulousness, = whose most important ally is timelessness. I am waxing poetic here becasue I took this out from an old manuscript. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_05B8_01C59C37.64486E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: "Jed Rothwell" =

>>Whoa...we have=20 yet to establish any evidence whatsoever that it happened=20 elsewhere.
 
> You misunderstand my argument, which was = admittedly=20 terse. I meant that:
 
> IF we postulate some other = species seeded=20 earth with life in an artificial
> (or intelligent) manner THEN = we have=20 to ask how that other life form appeared.
 
> Did some = other form=20 of life seed that one? Bad answer. Somewhere back in
> the chain, = at some=20 point, some form of life had to appear on its own,
> without = artificial=20 assistance from any pre-existing form of life.

The logical error=20 here seems to be in confusing the "physical" (time delineated) = with=20 the "nonphysical" (timeless influence). ID is the characteristic of a=20 nonphysical and timeless influence. There is no need for a = pre-existeing=20 life form at all when there is a timeless pre-existing formative=20 *influence.*

Secondly, there is no assurance that we even had a = physical=20 "beginning" anyway - or that there really was a "big bang" ... but even = if there=20 was, the hidden meme-like influence, which is one way to envision ID (or = spirituality) would survive the cyclical big crunch or big bang or = whatever.=20 "It" has always existed, as difficult as that concept is for humans to=20 grasp.

IOW there is no chance for life to "appear on its own," = even if=20 that was possible in a first instance because... at least in this = understanding=20 of ultimate reality, that force is prexistent and eternal. It was = already=20 present when the very first planet capable of supporting life cooled out = of the=20 fireball - if there was one.

There is a huge trade-off here. You = have to=20 give up all the grandiose business about "all-powerful" in an immediate = context=20 - and all of that other hyperbole which comes from ancient dogma, and = accept the=20 fact that divinity works very slowly. The universe is incredibly vast in = the=20 present tense but even far more overwhelming in its perpetual = repetition, that=20 there is plenty of room for both a minimal and awesome presence to = coexist when=20 you stop the clock. This is a force that ordains, not in=20 megalomaniacal haste, but in millineal meticulousness, whose most = important ally=20 is timelessness.
 
I am waxing poetic here becasue I took = this out=20 from an old manuscript.
 
Jones

 ------=_NextPart_000_05B8_01C59C37.64486E90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 17:59:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j790wRwv028230; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:58:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j790wOMx028221; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:58:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:58:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vi4h$15t0l5h mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,90,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1271944369:sNHT21237240" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:57:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-T8B.A.y4G.v-_9CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sez: ... > IF we postulate some other species seeded earth with life > in an artificial (or intelligent) manner THEN we have to > ask how that other life form appeared. > > Did some other form of life seed that one? Bad answer. > Somewhere back in the chain, at some point, some form of > life had to appear on its own, without artificial > assistance from any pre-existing form of life. > Just a side comment here. One of the best SF authors I can think of that has delved in the mythos of the original species to populate the galaxy is David Brin and his series on the Uplift Wars. He has written a series of books, most of them quite good reads, that deal with species that "uplift" non-sentient species to the domain of intelligence. For such a privilege, the "uplifted" species must then serve their masters for a period of time (thousands of years) before the uplifted species can gain their own true independence, to then begin their own practice of uplifting other non-intelligent species for their own purpose. This practice of "uplifting" non-sentient species, of course, brings much ado about intergalactic politics and intergalactic ethics, into the equation making for some lively story telling at times. On rare occasions, a non-sentient species that had been uplifted to sentience decides that it really DOESN'T to remain remain sentient and requests to go back to its original animal state. The decision is made to leave the species alone on their home world where they are allowed to slowly go feral over thousands of years. Their world is banned from being visited by other races for a very long period of time - hundreds of thousands of years I believe. This happens when the uplifters bungled the job and caused too much genetic harm to the uplifted species. When this happens it is considered a great boo boo in the galactic community and the uplifter species is usually penalized quite severally for their misjudgement. They can, once again, find themselves unwillingly indentured to an older species as penalty for their sins. On rare occasions a species, called "Lone Wolfs" somehow mange to uplift themselves all on their on without any outside genetic manipulation. In Brin's universe Homo Sapiens turns out to be one of those rare species that mysteriously made it to sentience all on its own. This, of course, tends to piss off most of the other species in the galaxy since nobody can claim them for a period of indenture. In Brin's novels there are legendary stories of the "progenitors" who were the original species to populate the galaxy BILLIONS of years ago. Nobody knows who they were or where they went to. Nobody knows HOW they came into existence (sentience) in the first place since, presumably, there was no "uplifting" going on. There are only legends that can be extracted from the vast galactic "library" - what we could call the Internet in which one can retrieve all sorts of valuable data if one knows how to perform the correct google searches. ;-) I love Brin's sense of epic proportions. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 8 20:07:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79375ha019619; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:07:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79372lG019605; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:07:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:07:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <15770605.1123556806691.JavaMail.root mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 23:06:46 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: >> Did some other form of life seed that one? Bad answer. Somewhere back in >> the chain, at some point, some form of life had to appear on its own, >> without artificial assistance from any pre-existing form of life. > >The logical error here seems to be in confusing the "physical" (time delineated) with the "nonphysical" (timeless >influence). I wasn't talking about that hypothesis. I was referring to the idea that another life form visited earth and left a physical "seed" of some sort, either on purpose or by accident (pollution). Note that people may have already accidentally brought life to Mars. Once it is established, life is tenacious, and it can evolve quickly, as demonstrated by the presence of bacteria in D2O nearly everywhere in the world, discovered by Celani et al. A D2O environment did not even exist before 1940. A variation on this idea is that seeds are broadcast through space by some natural event, like a cosmic dandelion or touch-me-not (Impatiens, I. balsamina -- a flower that expells the seed mechanically when you touch it). That, at least, would be natural in origin, but I doubt that any carbon DNA based species can survive in space, or survive unshielded for the millions of years it would take to cross interstellar space. I am assuming that a space-based Impatiens would still be mechanically or chemically powered, rather than CF powered, so it would travel very slowly. How could it even escape from the star's gravity? This is not a promising SF story. > ID is the characteristic of a nonphysical and timeless influence. There is no such thing. If there were it could not be detected with any instrument, and therefore it, in turn, could not influence events in the real world. Anything which can affect matter can be detected with some configuration of matter. The hypothesis that an object is "nonphysical and timeless" -- invisible in short -- can never be proved or falsified, so it is not scientific. It is like the statement that all positive cold fusion results are caused by unspecified and undetected errors. If you discover a way to detect this invisible force of nature, that will make it a visible force of nature, and I expect you will then find that it works like all the other forces of nature we have discovered: it obeys mathematical laws to as many decimal places as you can measure -- or it is perfectly random at the quantum level, and it expresses no will, purpose, or consiousness. > Secondly, there is no assurance that we even had a physical "beginning" anyway - or that there really was a > "big bang" ... There is no assurance of anything, but some things are extremely likely, and the big bang is among them. Cosmic space-based Impatiens are at the opposite end of the scale. I would have predicted that bacteria that thrives in D2O (and nowhere else) is extremely unlikely too, but there it is. So, one never knows, do one? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 00:40:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j797dR92019808; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 00:39:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j797dObJ019786; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 00:39:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 00:39:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F85DA2.8070103 iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:39:14 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent design References: <200508080908.AA238289568 mail1.myexcel.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050808120721.044e0e10@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808120721.044e0e10 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your getting into some very good debates. I think Jeds perfectly right; ID as its currently described is badly flawed. Most young earth creationists argue that you can't compromise in that way. Either an all powerfully God exists or every thing evolved. The catch is that creationists don't look for the origin of God because the whole debate on origins and entropy is backwards. If you believe things started supersimple and worked up against entropy to complexity then yes there can be no true un evolved God. But if the universe is is at its origin super anentropic then that means it started with all the properties of a super state of order not chaos. What is the opposite of entropy it is order and information. What is the greatest and most complex form of order and information a thinking, feeling, creative personality. As the apex of anentropy its self, the very manifestation of infinite energy and infinite information woven together into a thinking form from the start such a being needs no universe to manifest with in. However it might get lonely so such a being would create space, time, matter, energy (as we measure it) and life. Having infinite information means infinite modeling capacity at infinite speed, anything less is entropic is it not, so before a single quark is born the form and destiny of all things are mapped out and any possible mistakes are foreseen and avoided. There is one no need in that context for any evolution of anything. From interstellar plasma and orbiting planets to microbes, mice and men all are designed from the start. There is only one exception. The question of diversity and choice. Diversity is built in by allowing random probability to play a part in many cases but acting on a limited range of probabilities. Like a painter spattering paint on a canvas to add a unique and diverse pattern to the otherwise ordered structure of his work, God does choose in some cases to roll the dice. Thus all things from stars to organisms have both order and variability woven in. The genetic code of a cat defines its form but several options are written into the code including; variability in size, fur colour and thickness, Teeth. Those options allow diverse beauty and survival options but they don't make it a dog. Every extinct life form we see that are not extinct because they are less evolved or because God decided to scrap them along the way. They are extinct because they got unlucky or where victims of mans greed and ecosystem destruction. Most young earth creationists include even the dinosaurs as victims of human action and argue that most fossils are the product of a planetary geophysical catastrophe, the flood. Yes, many argue that there no scientific evidence for the flood and creation. They claim that there are no real scientists working on creationism and they claim there are no peer reviewed papers on the subject. Yet note that these same people, the editors of the Journals: Nature, Science and Scientific American, make the same claims about cold fusion. If a thousand peer review papers on cold fusion can be rejected and thus the data hidden from the wider world. If a hundred researchers can be isolated, ridiculed and even sacked for just doing Cold Fusion. How many papers on creationism and flood geology might there be in creationist circles. How many leading scientists forced out of universities for their beliefs. The black ban on cold fusion is only 16 years old. The black ban on creationism is 180 years old. I know of people with warehouses of research papers, some peer reviewed within the creationists' own peer review journals, some that slipped into mainstream journals where the young earth implication sometimes go unnoticed due to the reviewers ignorance of true creationism. I would recommend that before dismissing the origins debate, a careful look at the creationists material is wise. The intelligent design people use the true creationist material, sometimes without referencing the source, these materials are the strength of both movements. The true source of the best material in my opinion http://www.answersingenesis.org/ . They know cold fusion is not dead and have never joined the skeptics in ridiculing cold fusion. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jeff Kooistra wrote: > >> >What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of >> >extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves >> industrial >> >waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. >> >> He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God is >> not a requirement for ID to be under consideration. > > > Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have said > before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to another > planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have evolved > entirely by natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there is no > reason to think it did not happen again on earth. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 01:50:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j798nmGa013493; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 01:50:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j798nl7f013478; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 01:49:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 01:49:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F86E1A.3060104 iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:49:30 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bladeless Turbine Thermal Efficiency Limit References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > The company promoting the design asserted > "Rockets, widely recognized as the most efficient engines, are > typically propelled by steam. Based on > > Is that BS I smell? This is the first time I've heard that assertion, > I would think that it would be quite the opposite. > > If you burn oxygen with hydrogen you get superheated water vapor. Is that not steam? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 02:36:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j799aCTa031836; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 02:36:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j799aAxR031820; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 02:36:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 02:36:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F878F7.1080804 iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:35:51 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima References: <046801c59afa$fe931240$debc050a annaophb5ed3f4> <6.2.1.2.2.20050808105626.044dc010@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808105626.044dc010 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I knew someone and Aussy POW in Japan when the bomb dropped. He was a bit of a historian. He said that there were conflicts between pro-emporer and pro- Tojo diplomats and security officers. The generals knew they faced the noose with any kind of surrender. Those sending peace messages on the emporers side where under virtual house arrest with the phones tapped. When the bombs dropped key people on Tojo's side quietly switched sides. Phone lines became available to the pro-peace diplomats, the guard commander at the palace gate went off to see if his family was OK, the generals orders were acted on but very slowly. A docudrama move made recently explored the tale. Have you seen anything to prove this tale to be untrue? Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> it was based were historically inaccurate. For one thing, the >> Smithsonian >> downplayed the casualties, saying only that the bombs "caused many >> tens of >> thousands of deaths" and that Hiroshima was "a definite military >> target." > > > Hiroshima had some of largest army and navy installations in Japan. > Nagasaki was and still is one of the largest shipyards in the world. > The supertankers I saw under construction there dwarfed the whole > downtown area. They built the superbattleship Musashi there, and > recently they have constructed gigantic cruiseships, as well as wind > turbines and solar cells. > > >> Americans were also told that use of the bombs "led to the immediate >> surrender of Japan and made unnecessary the planned invasion of the >> Japanese >> home islands." But it's not that straightforward. > > > Nothing in history a straightforward. > > >> As Tsuyoshi Hasegawa has shown definitively in his new book, "Racing >> the Enemy" — and many other historians have long argued — it was the >> Soviet Union's entry into the Pacific war on Aug. 8, two days after >> the Hiroshima bombing, that provided the final "shock" that led to >> Japan's capitulation. > > > That is unquestionably true. Every surviving account of the emperor's > counsel emphasizes that the Russian attack was the straw that broke > the camel's back. However, whether that alone would have been > sufficient, and whether they would have surrendered without the > nuclear attacks is impossible to know. The final cabinet vote was a > tie -- all of the civilians in favor of surrender, all of the military > leaders against it. The emperor broke the tie, voting himself for the > first and last time in Japanese history. > > My guess is that there would have been at least one or two more large > battles: one in Kyushu against the US, and one in Hokkaido or Tohoku > against the Russians. The Japanese still had a million trained > soldiers and ungodly amounts of ammunition and fortified bunkers in > Kyushu that would have survived a nuclear attack. (Everyone could see > that is where the attack would come.) > > >> The fact is that atomic bomb warning leaflets were dropped on >> Japanese cities, but only after Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been >> destroyed. > > > That is ridiculous. They dropped leaflets continuously, starting in > the fall of 1944. It was one of the most effective weapons of the > U.S., since the purpose of the bombing was to frighten the civilians > and get them to leave the cities and stop weapons production. It worked. > > >> The hard truth is that the atomic bombings were unnecessary. A >> million lives >> were not saved. > > > No one can possibly say how many lives were saved. If the war had > dragged on another six months, hundreds of thousands would have > starved to death. (Several thousand people starved to death after the > surrender, including ~20,000 Japanese P.O.W.s in Southeast Asia, who > were half dead when they surrendered.) The invading Russians would > have killed hundreds of thousands more, as they did in Manchuria. > > >> The bomb was dropped, as J. Robert Oppenheimer, scientific director >> of the >> Manhattan Project, said in November 1945, on "an essentially defeated >> enemy." > > > No one disputes that. The problem was, even though they were defeated > they did not want to stop fighting. Roughly 2 million Japanese people > had been killed, or 3% of the population. But they might have fought > on and lost another 7 million people (10% of the population). During > WWII, Germany lost 7 million people (9%) and Russia lost 25.5 million > (13%). In the U.S. Civil War, the Union states lost 1.4% of the > population and the Confederacy lost 2.5%. There have been wars in > modern history in Central America in which half the male population > was killed off, and medieval European wars which depopulated entire > fiefdoms. > > >> And they used it on Aug. 6 even though they had agreed among >> themselves as they returned home from the Potsdam Conference on Aug. >> 3 that the Japanese were looking for peace. > > > They could hardly disagree about that! The Japanese government was > sending them cables asking for peace, and they were tapping and > decoding the Japanese ambassador's correspondence from Moscow to > Tokyo. The only issue was the terms of the peace. The Japanese did not > want to surrender their colonies, allow an occupation, war crimes > trials, any change in the status of the emperor, or any changes to > their constitution or government. (They were willing to surrender > their military forces and leave China.) > > Within days after the bombing, many columnists and opinion makers > began to speculate that the real reason the US dropped the bomb was to > send a message to Moscow. I have read many of Truman's papers, > biographies and the books that he himself wrote and I have not found a > one sentence to back this up. Truman described his motivations and > actions in detail. If he had felt this way he would have said so. He > was a hard-line cold warrior. He did not hesitate to go to war in > Korea. There is no question he was willing to sacrifice lives in the > fight against communism: American, Koreans and Chinese lives, and > Japanese lives too. He summed up his own views about Hiroshima many > years after the war with a single sentence, a quote from Macbeth: > > "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying > nothing." > > That seems like an excellent summary to me. That pretty much describes > all wars. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 02:44:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j799iTq0002249; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 02:44:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j799iSo8002226; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 02:44:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 02:44:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F87AE8.7050503 sumosound.de> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:44:08 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Sir Arthur in the News References: <48vi4h$15t0l5h mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <48vi4h$15t0l5h mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Vorts! This just in on an RSS feed from the BBC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4746075.stm Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 04:20:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79BJUat006596; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:19:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79BJDM8006429; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:19:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:19:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=N0yHm+JfEjaO2E5/86dCMT3tubhx1hG105mlm3GSciKCykU2VMwD54t4n1LuLH2r; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200582910190600 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re; What if Hero Had Gas? Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:19:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a7134405e05a0526191fc93a829583eb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.243 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier. > > The volume about 1.0 CFM 3 PSIG for 2 kilowatt hours requires a Solar Box with a least 1800 > cubic feet of air at 200 F 3.0 PSIG per /KW-HR. > > The Solar Box can be an enclosed pit loaded with coarse gravel with a ballasted-sealed floating > "solar lid" so that a quasi-steady gas pressure of ~ 3 PSIG can be valved from the pits through > piping to the Bladeless Hot Gas Turbine to maintain continuous air flow. > Too complicated. Borrowing from externally-fired gas turbine (jet engine) technology, part of the power generated can be connected to an electric motor running an air compressor feeding the Solar Box with 3 psi ambient air. Sorry about that. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Posted earlier.
>
> The volume about 1.0 CFM 3 PSIG for 2 kilowatt hours requires a Solar Box with a least 1800
> cubic feet of air at 200 F  @ 3.0 PSIG  per /KW-HR.
>  
> The Solar Box can be an enclosed pit loaded with coarse gravel with a ballasted-sealed floating
> "solar lid" so that a quasi-steady gas pressure of ~ 3 PSIG can be valved from the pits through
> piping to the Bladeless Hot Gas Turbine to maintain continuous air flow.
> 
Too complicated.
Borrowing from externally-fired gas turbine (jet engine) technology, part of the power generated
can be connected to an electric motor running an air compressor feeding the
Solar Box  with 3 psi ambient air.
 
Sorry about that.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 04:24:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79BNvpC009058; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:24:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79BNu6S009035; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:23:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:23:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT RE: Intelligent design, DARWIN=ENVIRONMENT DETERMINES FITNESS *ONLY* Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:23:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <0JvnQC.A.GNC.MJJ-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Below originally written yesterday before the thread. I'm progressively reading the entries. On Jed's topic, yes, life would have to have started somewhere but it doesn't mean that every bit of life had to start ab-initio. Where's the logic in that?! What I'm trying to say (below) is that Darwinism says that the ENVIRONMENT SOLEY determines the fitness of organisms. What if an organism's fitness is determined by another organism or MODIFIED DIRECTLY BY IT. Did Darwin encompass such an idea. Evolution needs to be modified for this scenario. The BIG IRONY is that Darwinism is being taught like a religion. ... written yesterday offline .... V, In fact it doesn't even need ET intervention (Intelligent Intervention II?), take any species leaving symbiotically and with the ability to modify another organism or make choices for it (rather than the environment picking the fittest which is the Darwinist's mantra). Thus animal and plant breeding Take great apes, some have the ability to make tools, bedding, etc. And I'm sure there are other examples with lower organisms where one organism NOT THE ENVIRONMENT is picking what is fit. Besides there are mysteries in genomes on this planet, junk DNA, the Cambrian explosion, Eukaryotic cells, Microchondrial DNA... An open minded biologist/biochemist perhaps could help in something I only take a passing interest in (biology a fascinating science, chemistry too, not some mere derivative of mathematical physics as the 'Gods' would have us believe). Surely though the old model (Darwinism) must be up for questioning? I say if you are going to teach anything as ('scuse the pun) 'gospel' that you explain the LIMITS to the theory and what it would take for it to fail. I give an example of an honest teacher, not jaded or idea-less (remember the old George Bernard Shaw maxim, those who can..., maybe we should add 'and those who can't get cushy jobs in big institutions doing pointless research') should say to his class I am going to teach you 1st Law, 2nd Law, Relativity, Darwinism such and such... Now I've never seen an exception to such and such a law and no-one has BUT if there was this is the necessary condition and no giggling, eyes rolling or other suggestions of madness to even contemplate such. So the teacher rather than jading that boundless potential which is the young, teaches them to think and how to construct arguments for the most contentious of issues should it ever arise. (I've rarely come across a teacher who likes teaching or even likes the young but that could be a Brit thing.) No I don't agree with Intelligent Design with divine intervention - it is a cop out on thought. Possibly, giving it the slightest credit, design an experiment or fact gathering process to show how it could be so and don't mention the bible or damnation for even asking. I think that too much science is being taught like religion and the discoverers as prophets or gods. They are just people with bank balances, relationship problems, quirks, bigotries, highs and lows and they go to the toilet just like everybody else does. R. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Sent: 08 August 2005 10:00 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Intelligent design, RE: [ BOB PARKS-WHATSNEW] Vorts, Sorry if I don't fully participate for long. There are so many messages on Vortex. What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves industrial waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. In fact we're doing it right now as we take our first steps into GM. People don't seem to realise you have to have imagination to do science and maths, all the logic and erudition, number crunching is par for the course and any journeyman (or woman) can do that. Remi. ________________________________________ From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of RC Macaulay Sent: 07 August 2005 04:00 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [ BOB PARKS-WHATSNEW] John Coviello wrote.. >This week's column could have been called What's Not New.  Government and politics mixing in America, what's new about that?  Unfortunately, our current crop of politicians really seems to be using religion for political advantage in a cynical way to win votes.  Are people tired of this already? Time we sent the religious righters back to wherever they came from and start running our government to benefit all for a change? I read the whats new article by Bob Parks with interest ,in particular regarding the comments about " intelligent design". The idea of intelligent design comes from university campus student science groups. The ideas represent the students challenge to the university to peer review the Darwin junk science theory or discard it. Ever look at Parks picture posted at U of M ???. Notice the set of his jaw ? Me thinks he protestest too much. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 04:48:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79BltMp018431; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:48:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79Bls6q018412; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:47:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:47:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: nth order Darwinism Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:47:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: V, I know what you are going to say next... The organisms are the environment too!! Darwinism as taught ascribes selection pressures to 'simple' things like resource potential (food, water, climate) and genetic fitness (heh, are you a stud or not heh, heh). A 2nd order effect (?) would be the environment being modified by other organisms. So lots of bacteria in the Cambrian time setting a bias now for oxygen breathing life. 3rd order symbiotic life forms say like gut bacteria in ruminants where in a sense they are picking one another. 4th order - Intelligent Intervention or Design. An organism interfering with the nuts and bolts of life properly - breeding (like using a compiler) or directly GM (like tinkering with the compiler's machine code) or even mega-directly by artificial life (writing ones own machine code for a different processor). The last includes the possibility of ET seeding even God if you can prove it. Now where's that taught? Darwinism is much more subtle than the maxim "survival of the fittest". If he'd been around today I'm sure he would have contemplated the 3rd and 4th items more. P.S. wouldn't it be nice if more science today was cross-disciplinary even across the arts/humanity divide. R. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Sent: 09 August 2005 12:24 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT RE: Intelligent design, DARWIN=ENVIRONMENT DETERMINES FITNESS *ONLY* Below originally written yesterday before the thread. I'm progressively reading the entries. On Jed's topic, yes, life would have to have started somewhere but it doesn't mean that every bit of life had to start ab-initio. Where's the logic in that?! What I'm trying to say (below) is that Darwinism says that the ENVIRONMENT SOLEY determines the fitness of organisms. What if an organism's fitness is determined by another organism or MODIFIED DIRECTLY BY IT. Did Darwin encompass such an idea. Evolution needs to be modified for this scenario. The BIG IRONY is that Darwinism is being taught like a religion. ... written yesterday offline .... V, In fact it doesn't even need ET intervention (Intelligent Intervention II?), take any species leaving symbiotically and with the ability to modify another organism or make choices for it (rather than the environment picking the fittest which is the Darwinist's mantra). Thus animal and plant breeding Take great apes, some have the ability to make tools, bedding, etc. And I'm sure there are other examples with lower organisms where one organism NOT THE ENVIRONMENT is picking what is fit. Besides there are mysteries in genomes on this planet, junk DNA, the Cambrian explosion, Eukaryotic cells, Microchondrial DNA... An open minded biologist/biochemist perhaps could help in something I only take a passing interest in (biology a fascinating science, chemistry too, not some mere derivative of mathematical physics as the 'Gods' would have us believe). Surely though the old model (Darwinism) must be up for questioning? I say if you are going to teach anything as ('scuse the pun) 'gospel' that you explain the LIMITS to the theory and what it would take for it to fail. I give an example of an honest teacher, not jaded or idea-less (remember the old George Bernard Shaw maxim, those who can..., maybe we should add 'and those who can't get cushy jobs in big institutions doing pointless research') should say to his class I am going to teach you 1st Law, 2nd Law, Relativity, Darwinism such and such... Now I've never seen an exception to such and such a law and no-one has BUT if there was this is the necessary condition and no giggling, eyes rolling or other suggestions of madness to even contemplate such. So the teacher rather than jading that boundless potential which is the young, teaches them to think and how to construct arguments for the most contentious of issues should it ever arise. (I've rarely come across a teacher who likes teaching or even likes the young but that could be a Brit thing.) No I don't agree with Intelligent Design with divine intervention - it is a cop out on thought. Possibly, giving it the slightest credit, design an experiment or fact gathering process to show how it could be so and don't mention the bible or damnation for even asking. I think that too much science is being taught like religion and the discoverers as prophets or gods. They are just people with bank balances, relationship problems, quirks, bigotries, highs and lows and they go to the toilet just like everybody else does. R. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Sent: 08 August 2005 10:00 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Intelligent design, RE: [ BOB PARKS-WHATSNEW] Vorts, Sorry if I don't fully participate for long. There are so many messages on Vortex. What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves industrial waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. In fact we're doing it right now as we take our first steps into GM. People don't seem to realise you have to have imagination to do science and maths, all the logic and erudition, number crunching is par for the course and any journeyman (or woman) can do that. Remi. ________________________________________ From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of RC Macaulay Sent: 07 August 2005 04:00 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [ BOB PARKS-WHATSNEW] John Coviello wrote.. >This week's column could have been called What's Not New.  Government and politics mixing in America, what's new about that?  Unfortunately, our current crop of politicians really seems to be using religion for political advantage in a cynical way to win votes.  Are people tired of this already? Time we sent the religious righters back to wherever they came from and start running our government to benefit all for a change? I read the whats new article by Bob Parks with interest ,in particular regarding the comments about " intelligent design". The idea of intelligent design comes from university campus student science groups. The ideas represent the students challenge to the university to peer review the Darwin junk science theory or discard it. Ever look at Parks picture posted at U of M ???. Notice the set of his jaw ? Me thinks he protestest too much. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 05:14:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79CDhUi028504; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:13:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79CDgYB028475; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:13:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:13:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: Nth order Darwinism, What is life? Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:13:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: V, One other thought. In our complacency we think we know what life is, it's soft, hairy, smelly, meatware that sh.gs to propagate. No! Some life propagates by asexual processes. Some things are right on the boarder-line of what we call life, viruses and prions. It seems the thing that qualifies a process as life is that it passes information down the generations against the tendency of entropy to increase; it may or may not be subject to natural selection processes in a hard or soft manner. So a self-repairing, replicating robot could be life. Being hardware, the selection pressures on it might be quite gentle (not much worry about resource poverty or radiation damage then). So in the 4th order category how do you know for some higher organism that you are nothing more than some 'simple' 'artificial' creation? Face it, you're complacent. R. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 05:58:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79CvRV0017770; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:57:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79CvPYI017735; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:57:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:57:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <42F8A655.19840480 centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:49:25 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent design References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Normally I refrain from contributing to this type of thread; but I am compelled to ask where is there any evidence for Intelligent Design, in some benign sense? We, the Lords of Creation, have backs that are often unsuited for bipedalism, immune systems that kill or cripple us with their defensive response, and -- above all -- a moral sense that glorifies murder in the name of whatever. This last defect may result in our extinction after a relatively short run as a species. If this is not the result of random blunders, then I would fear we are the product of Malevolent Design. The evidence for Malevolent Design is compelling; and it may support the concept of ID if an evil intelligence rules the universe. Are we the play things of a Monster that likes making butterflies so that It can tear their wings off? Jack Smith thomas malloy wrote: > > Jeff Kooistra wrote: > > And Jed Rothwell replied; > > > >What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of > > >extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves industrial > > >waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. > > > >He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God is not a > >requirement for ID to be under consideration. > > >Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have said > >before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to another > >planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have evolved entirely by > >natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there is no reason to think it > >did not happen again on earth. > > I've got to admit that your's in an excellent argument Jed. My only > response is that G-d is an energy based phenomena, and the Earth is > physical. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 06:26:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79DQ823032482; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:26:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79DQ7hd032467; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:26:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:26:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT RE: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:25:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <2-yJ1B.A.P7H.u7K-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: V, Ironies or ironies. This is a bit like Geo-centralism of the middle ages! We are so wonderful that nothing could have created us but blind chance! I'm not saying we're created but admit the possibility that part of our evolution *might* have had *an element* of design in it. Prove to me it hasn't. Prove to me that it is the general case applicable to all life systems anywhere in the universe. Don't give that old chestnut about the eye being evolved several times in the past along different lines in about 500Ky. It simply isn't the general case. It reminds me of that nursery story about people realising that they all lived in the dream of a creator and they weren't 'real' after all and what a shock it was for them. So who is the religious nut, the scientists or the priests? It seems an act of faith is going on that we have to subscribe to even though their data is incomplete. I was saying to my Dad that the 'Creator' must have a bloody great sense of black humour, drought in Niger and floods in India. It's a bit like a pathetic fallacy. You are trying to ascribe human self-importance to the rationale of things. BOTH OF YOU - Creationists and Darwinists. One says "I'm too important to be mere chance" the other "I'm too important to have been created". The truth is out there. R. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith Sent: 09 August 2005 13:49 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent design Hi All, Normally I refrain from contributing to this type of thread; but I am compelled to ask where is there any evidence for Intelligent Design, in some benign sense? We, the Lords of Creation, have backs that are often unsuited for bipedalism, immune systems that kill or cripple us with their defensive response, and -- above all -- a moral sense that glorifies murder in the name of whatever. This last defect may result in our extinction after a relatively short run as a species. If this is not the result of random blunders, then I would fear we are the product of Malevolent Design. The evidence for Malevolent Design is compelling; and it may support the concept of ID if an evil intelligence rules the universe. Are we the play things of a Monster that likes making butterflies so that It can tear their wings off? Jack Smith thomas malloy wrote: > > Jeff Kooistra wrote: > > And Jed Rothwell replied; > > > >What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of > > >extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves industrial > > >waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. > > > >He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God is not a > >requirement for ID to be under consideration. > > >Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have said > >before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to another > >planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have evolved entirely by > >natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there is no reason to think it > >did not happen again on earth. > > I've got to admit that your's in an excellent argument Jed. My only > response is that G-d is an energy based phenomena, and the Earth is > physical. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 06:29:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79DSruv002082; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:29:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79DSpgt002061; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:28:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:28:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:28:28 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B19049 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Intelligent design Thread-Index: AcWc4gPBUtCuYB1jSa2i43SZWtLpTwAA38og From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2005 13:28:03.0007 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B2344F0:01C59CE6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j79DSYRA001812 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am increasingly impressed by intelligent design - but not by an All knowing Creator. It's starting to look more and more like we were patched together by some ET's over a period of time. This would account for how screwed up the human race is and how ad hoc and disorganized our religious and moral systems Are. There never was any 'perfect' human design to reference. -----Original Message----- From: jack mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net] On Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:49 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent design Hi All, Normally I refrain from contributing to this type of thread; but I am compelled to ask where is there any evidence for Intelligent Design, in some benign sense? We, the Lords of Creation, have backs that are often unsuited for bipedalism, immune systems that kill or cripple us with their defensive response, and -- above all -- a moral sense that glorifies murder in the name of whatever. This last defect may result in our extinction after a relatively short run as a species. If this is not the result of random blunders, then I would fear we are the product of Malevolent Design. The evidence for Malevolent Design is compelling; and it may support the concept of ID if an evil intelligence rules the universe. Are we the play things of a Monster that likes making butterflies so that It can tear their wings off? Jack Smith thomas malloy wrote: > > Jeff Kooistra wrote: > > And Jed Rothwell replied; > > > >What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of > > >extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves > > industrial >waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. > > > >He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God is > >not a requirement for ID to be under consideration. > > >Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have > >said before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to > >another planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have > >evolved entirely by natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there > >is no reason to think it did not happen again on earth. > > I've got to admit that your's in an excellent argument Jed. My only > response is that G-d is an energy based phenomena, and the Earth is > physical. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 06:58:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79DvIH2016569; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:57:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79DvDRX016448; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:57:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:57:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: Chris Zell's thoughts Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:56:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: V. and Chris, The penny drops. It's a bit like the first day at school when you realise that Mum and Dad don't know everything. I'm prepared to *believe* (can't prove at present) that we have had ET visitations many times in our past. Through collective memories and religions this *could* be so. I must take a trip to Wiltshire and Avebury this weekend, the weather looks good and v.hot. The whole damn place, Avebury, looks like a landing platform. There are many instances of this around the world - the sky-paintings on the Chilean Andes to name one. To rule this out shows complete lack of imagination. What, we are a species with 10Ky development, most of it happening in the last 0.2Ky. Don't give me that cr.p about not being able to go FTL do this do that. Too many people have come forward and said they have had ET experiences and I'm not prepared to believe they're all mad. Yes, 99% of crop circles are done by yokels peeing themselves with laughter (not least the money they make for admission to the farms) but no, that big one back in July 2001 (I think), I walked it, saw the hummocky ground, the perfect shapes, the smoothly bent wheat stalks, the tiny access road (a team of hundreds over night pull the other one), the accounts of pilots taking off and landing and saying that wasn't there 15min ago. The more I deal with 'professional' scientists and 'learned' bodies I realise that they can't think, they probably know this and are scared of something... R. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Zell, Chris Sent: 09 August 2005 14:28 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Intelligent design I am increasingly impressed by intelligent design - but not by an All knowing Creator. It's starting to look more and more like we were patched together by some ET's over a period of time. This would account for how screwed up the human race is and how ad hoc and disorganized our religious and moral systems Are. There never was any 'perfect' human design to reference. -----Original Message----- From: jack mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net] On Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:49 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent design Hi All, Normally I refrain from contributing to this type of thread; but I am compelled to ask where is there any evidence for Intelligent Design, in some benign sense? We, the Lords of Creation, have backs that are often unsuited for bipedalism, immune systems that kill or cripple us with their defensive response, and -- above all -- a moral sense that glorifies murder in the name of whatever. This last defect may result in our extinction after a relatively short run as a species. If this is not the result of random blunders, then I would fear we are the product of Malevolent Design. The evidence for Malevolent Design is compelling; and it may support the concept of ID if an evil intelligence rules the universe. Are we the play things of a Monster that likes making butterflies so that It can tear their wings off? Jack Smith thomas malloy wrote: > > Jeff Kooistra wrote: > > And Jed Rothwell replied; > > > >What the slurrers against ID fail to admit is the possibility of > > >extra-terrestrial intervention just like a civilisation leaves > > industrial >waste. To rule it out would be unscientific. > > > >He's absolutely right. I pointed this out in a column once--God is > >not a requirement for ID to be under consideration. > > >Wrong, wrong WRONG. I find this argument very annoying, as I have > >said before. It solves nothing. It just pushes the problem off to > >another planet. Somewhere, sometime intelligent life must have > >evolved entirely by natural forces. Since it happened somewhere there > >is no reason to think it did not happen again on earth. > > I've got to admit that your's in an excellent argument Jed. My only > response is that G-d is an energy based phenomena, and the Earth is > physical. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 06:58:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79DvJQu016570; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:57:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79DvDSb016431; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:57:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:57:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000401c59cea$2b53ce00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <42F8A655.19840480@centurytel.net> Subject: Re: OT: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:56:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Taylor J. Smith" > Normally I refrain from contributing to this type > of thread; but I am compelled to ask where is > there any evidence for Intelligent Design, in > some benign sense? In the scientific sense, it is all about probability and time scale....more specifically an appreciation of the fiction of "time" as a determinant of ultimate meaning. Purely random processes, in the laboratory, take significantly more time to materialize than what is actually seen in biology. Not that several billion years isn't a long time, but if we had to depend on true randomness at every stage, evolution would look more like several trillion years to even get to multicellular life. Most of the developmental process are stochastic, however, meaning that outside influence can accelerate and "direct" the course of what would otherwise seem like random mutation. It is kind of a directed catalysis. Rupert Sheldrake has written extensively on this, without taking the next step into philosophical meaning. He has an online site and his books are great "jumping-off" point for science-based spirituality: http://www.sheldrake.org/. The best example, from the human perspective, is the way we have bred traits into animals. Going from wolf to Chihuahua, in a totally random process might be impossible or take a billion years assuming that there was some niche for such a weird life-form -yet it can be done in a few hundred years of directed effort. When the direction comes from another dimension of reality, however - a timeless dimension, then of course this kind of million-to-one speed-up is not forthcoming; but in general. stochastic processes can show what looks like a 10,000-1 improvement over purely random processes, when minimally influenced. The problem being, that for most practical purposes the sterile and scientifically detached vision of ID is not going to offer the personal intimacy desired by the masses - i.e. the "opiate effect." No, the "real" evidence for ID is subtle, not overwhelming. That is why it requires somewhat of an elitist (scientific) mentality to be comfortable with this dichotomy - of an erudite viewpoint on the one hand, which is not diminished when combined with the personal kind of spirituality on a lower level (and belief in an "immediate" form of ID), having its roots in instinctual needs. This dichotomy, elitist as it may appear, being preferable to the total lack of accountability which would be the expected result of an abandonment of spirituality at the level of mass-consumption, shall we say. Not to mention, Sheldrake's ideas, when expanded, work very well with a scientific version of Karma and cyclical reappearance, at the human level, which provides even a higher degree of accountability and control, for some personality types. It provides a real prospect for sequential progression, in place of the absurd fiction of eternal life based on a last-minute choice. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 07:10:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79EAC3D026596; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:10:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79EAAkt026572; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:10:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:10:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050809100854.044dda40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:09:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Yet another atomic-powered perpetual motion machine? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1160718==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1160718==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed See: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=vahab.IN.&OS=IN/vahab&RS=IN/vahab MAGNETO-HYDRODYNAMIC POWER CELL USING ATOMIC CONVERSION OF ENERGY, PLASMA AND FIELD IONIZATION Abstract A method of operating an electric current producing power cell comprising precharging the power cell; applying a current to heat a bi-metal heating element; applying voltages so as to cause a first cell to assume exhaust gas motion; irradiating gases in an alternate cell to force gas movement in a direction, away from a negatively charged collecting plate; producing a high internal gas temperature through molecule collisions to cause gas expansion; conducting the gas mix at high speed through a plasma discharge channel in a direction perpendicular to an impressed magnetic field; and drawing an electric current produced thereby; reversing electrical charges and repeating the process continuously in each of the alternate cells. --=====================_1160718==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" See:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=vahab.IN.&OS=IN/vahab&RS=IN/vahab


MAGNETO-HYDRODYNAMIC POWER CELL USING ATOMIC CONVERSION OF ENERGY, PLASMA AND FIELD IONIZATION

Abstract

A method of operating an electric current producing power cell comprising precharging the power cell; applying a current to heat a bi-metal heating element; applying voltages so as to cause a first cell to assume exhaust gas motion; irradiating gases in an alternate cell to force gas movement in a direction, away from a negatively charged collecting plate; producing a high internal gas temperature through molecule collisions to cause gas expansion; conducting the gas mix at high speed through a plasma discharge channel in a direction perpendicular to an impressed magnetic field; and drawing an electric current produced thereby; reversing electrical charges and repeating the process continuously in each of the alternate cells.
--=====================_1160718==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 07:29:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79ESc7I008894; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:28:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79ESZ6h008873; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:28:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:28:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vje6$18ru4mf mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,92,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1371476687:sNHT25868216" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: OT RE: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 10:28:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R. Sez: ... > I was saying to my Dad that the 'Creator' must have a > bloody great sense of black humour, drought in Niger and > floods in India. > > It's a bit like a pathetic fallacy. You are trying to > ascribe human self-importance to the rationale of things. > BOTH OF YOU - Creationists and Darwinists. One says "I'm > too important to be mere chance" the other "I'm > too important to have been created". > > The truth is out there. > R. FWIW I have always felt that D. Adam's wry metaphysical perception of the creation of the universe is the most appealing of them all. ;-) "My name is not important." Perceived in terms of computer programming: Question: Why do I have an appendix? Answer: It's commented out code. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 07:32:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79EVFpC011888; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:31:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79EVC0k011840; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:31:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:31:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: Homage a Darwin Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 15:30:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: V, I've got a bit of an accidental affinity for Darwin. Where I grew up as a child in Laindon, Essex we used to go for a break with the family a few miles to Burnham on Crouch. Apparently the Beagle is scuppered near there as Prof. Colin Pillinger found out for his pleasure after naming his Mars probe after it. Also I lived in Biggin Hill a few years ago and regularly drive through there on the way to Brighton and Downe House where the origin of species is written is just a few miles down the road: http://luna.brighton.ac.uk/~roc1/DowneHouse-HomeOfDarwin.jpg On a dark day I would look for inspiration and pay homage to the great man. Anyway when the Olympics comes round in 7 years, visit the area. Try Billericay in Essex, just up the road from Laindon. It's from where the Founding Fathers came, fleeing, er, religious persecution. Remi. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 08:09:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79F8ilG007993; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:08:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79F8e2O007942; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:08:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:08:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <5f89192d-49af-41a3-ac6c-6fa6edda481b> Message-ID: <5b1901c59cf4$29859220$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <15770605.1123556806691.JavaMail.root mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:03:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <9MN2QC.A.B8B.4bM-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design > There is no such thing. If there were it could not be detected with any instrument, and therefore it, in turn, could not influence events in the real world. Anything which can affect matter can be detected with some configuration of matter. The hypothesis that an object is "nonphysical and timeless" -- invisible in short -- can never be proved or falsified, so it is not scientific. It is like the statement that all positive cold fusion results are caused by unspecified and undetected errors. > > If you discover a way to detect this invisible force of nature, that will make it a visible force of nature, and I expect you will then find that it works like all the other forces of nature we have discovered: it obeys mathematical laws to as many decimal places as you can measure -- or it is perfectly random at the quantum level, and it expresses no will, purpose, or consiousness. --------------- This debate dichotomy rages on as it has in other forms for centuries. This is a clue that something 'higher' or more 'fundamental' is missing. I suggest that it may lay in the direction of 'complexity' theory and Wolfram's "new kind of science". Wolfram's book carries forward earlier studies of cellular automata and the complexity generated by recursive application of formal rules. By voluminous examples of simulation runs, Wolfram demonsrtates that logical seeds can generate unlimited complexity with islands of order, and that these complex entities can execute basic logical and mathematical functions. The implication of this is that the manifest universe with all its complexity can be a process originating from a discrete logical seed whose recursive operation is completely deterministic, yet whose product is infinitely complex, like the Mandelbrot set. Human brains are arguably the most complex things in the universe, given the number of neurons and the completiy of their interconnections. It is plausibly argued that a human infant learns its environment by experiment and disconnection of irrelevant synapse patterns -- a process of pattern recognition uniquely able to cope with the extreme complexity of the manifest world. Thus life and intelligence will emerge wherever possible, for it is inherent in the process of the universe. And, it will be varied in its forms. The complex pattern recognition systems of organisms will perceive the islands of order within the generative complexity of the universe and conceive of intelligence in the design, missing the majesty of the inscrutible generative process. An irony in Wolfram's view is that the nature of the generative seed cannot be deduced from complexity it produces. So we may continue to study the universe without ever discovering the exact nature of ".....". Quoting Poo-Bah, in "The Mikado": "So I am right and you are right and all is right as right can be". :-) Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 08:21:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79FL5Nh017014; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:21:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79FL3WN016985; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:21:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:21:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050809111710.044edd00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:20:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design In-Reply-To: <5b1901c59cf4$29859220$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <15770605.1123556806691.JavaMail.root mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <5b1901c59cf4$29859220$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >The implication of this is that the manifest universe with all its >complexity can be a process originating from a discrete logical seed whose >recursive operation is completely deterministic, yet whose product is >infinitely complex, like the Mandelbrot set. That seems manifestly true. >Human brains are arguably the most complex things in the universe . . . In the KNOWN universe. I'll bet there are way more complex objects elsewhere. Furthermore, I'll bet that in another 200 years or so, there will be computers and other manmade objects more complex than brains. I hope they are more predictable and they work better than brains! I hope they do not run Windows Version 100. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 08:34:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79FXsiD024776; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:34:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79FXqOc024731; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:33:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:33:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: ID and scientist fear Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 10:33:28 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B191BB CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ID and scientist fear Thread-Index: AcWc97BzveZsQPJnQwaWFFFKSIgVPw== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2005 15:33:35.0310 (UTC) FILETIME=[B4BD7EE0:01C59CF7] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j79FXYZi024458 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A previous post mentions raises the issue of scientists being 'afraid' of some things. This is a little off topic but I recently attended a small seminar led by Russell Targ - of CIA/Psychic Remote Viewer fame. After witnessing several surprizing demonstrations, you leave with the feeling that, not only is this stuff real, but it's NO BIG DEAL in an emotional sense. He said that he went to a conference in Brazil and the reaction was something like "why are you bothering with this? Of course, psychic ability exists, everyone here knows that". He was surprized by the difference in culture, even among the academics. I wonder about UFOs also in regard to this strange "real, not real" situation. Clearly, there are 'higher-ups' in Europe who think that American denials of UFO's are pure BS. The internal Cometa report in France showed this - with suspicions expressed as to why the US keeps fighting against disclosure. Some EU authorities were angry that US officials could glibly dismiss events like the Belgian Triangle incident in the '80s - in which an enormous black triangle floated thru the night skies, witnessed by countless authoritative people, photographed, tracked on radar, and chased away by NATO interceptors who couldn't catch it. An even goofier situation has prevailed in India in which the India Daily matter of factly discusses their military contacts with an ET UFO base located remotely in the Himilayas! You read the newspaper and it reports cricket scores, stock quotes, the latest business news and an editorial on why they should pressure the US on the subject in a very serious, non sensationalistic way. We live in a very strange world.................. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 08:35:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79FYalK025526; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:34:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79FYWeh025468; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:34:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:34:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c59cf8$c77e68e0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: Fw: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:41:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "revtec" To: "Jed Rothwell" Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:45 AM Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design > > The hypothesis that an object is "nonphysical and timeless" -- invisible in > short -- can never be proved or falsified, so it is not scientific. > > It sounds like you are saying that any truth that cannot be "proven" true > must be accepted as a lie! You can't even accept the possibility that it > might be true but must automatically insist that it be false simply because > your proving methods, regardless of how inadequate or primitive they may be, > are unable to deal with the hypothesis. > > Can we not consider the possibility that life in this universe, consisting > of the interaction of matter and energy, is way to complex to have evolved, > as has been calculated by several credible mathamaticians, but that a > creator being outside of the universe, whose life operates on entirely > different principles, produced this universe and the life we experience?And, > that the totally different life form of the creator, being so different, IS > amenable to evolutionary principles on that plane? > > There is a rather serious paradox here. Can a being, who is simple enough > to evolve, rise to such a high level of intelligence and power that it is > able to produce things that are too complex to evolve? I presented this > question before and no one commented. In fact I said a few things over the > years that I thought were somewhat profound without getting a single > response. What I can't figure out is whether the points were either > unassailable or so stupid that they were unworthy of a response from anyone. > > In any event, the model I presented solves all the problems except that our > "Holy Scientific Method" is useless, and that many people, who are > absolutely unwilling to accept the authority of a higher power, will say, > do, and believe almost anything to disprove the existence of said higher > power. > > Jeff > > P.S. > > It really baffles me how the scientific method can be invoked to eliminate > the possibility of a creator while it is ignored when considering all of the > pseudoevidence for evolution. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 08:44:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79Fi0io002312; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:44:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79FhwgU002294; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:43:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:43:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ID and scientist fear Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:43:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Type A personalities or Suppressive Personalities rule this planet. We've moved a little on from Feudalism. The future will be one of peace, no want, contentment and no money system. We will realise our place amongst a whole universe of life-forms. Right now we're not evolved enough for it. I *do* know this. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Zell, Chris Sent: 09 August 2005 16:33 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ID and scientist fear A previous post mentions raises the issue of scientists being 'afraid' of some things. This is a little off topic but I recently attended a small seminar led by Russell Targ - of CIA/Psychic Remote Viewer fame. After witnessing several surprizing demonstrations, you leave with the feeling that, not only is this stuff real, but it's NO BIG DEAL in an emotional sense. He said that he went to a conference in Brazil and the reaction was something like "why are you bothering with this? Of course, psychic ability exists, everyone here knows that". He was surprized by the difference in culture, even among the academics. I wonder about UFOs also in regard to this strange "real, not real" situation. Clearly, there are 'higher-ups' in Europe who think that American denials of UFO's are pure BS. The internal Cometa report in France showed this - with suspicions expressed as to why the US keeps fighting against disclosure. Some EU authorities were angry that US officials could glibly dismiss events like the Belgian Triangle incident in the '80s - in which an enormous black triangle floated thru the night skies, witnessed by countless authoritative people, photographed, tracked on radar, and chased away by NATO interceptors who couldn't catch it. An even goofier situation has prevailed in India in which the India Daily matter of factly discusses their military contacts with an ET UFO base located remotely in the Himilayas! You read the newspaper and it reports cricket scores, stock quotes, the latest business news and an editorial on why they should pressure the US on the subject in a very serious, non sensationalistic way. We live in a very strange world.................. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 09:11:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79GAedC015900; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:10:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79GAc0e015885; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:10:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:10:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eC7d4UuljA3XSbdhFDdjGnwdMy9t1kgcBHzgMEaW+jYwua+SA4dCIB1RWKSS75Gnpr/h/p3RmPQjWPXQCwgWOcWSF5ZTjHWFSHKmMkdq9zyFlHMFmCVF7AUcY8RVbkjHCnLhoNNOnAlzP38UGxmeY/m3iZNqa1pDhG9uL31RaG8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:10:12 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ID and scientist fear In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j79GAGnQ015666 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: if theres no want, and no system of transfer of goods and valuation of labor (money) then society will stagnate. thas NOT a utopia you describe. btw, on the scientific credibility of esp like things, proven, some people are just computer jinxs http://www.canada.com/technology/story.html?id=f6ebf013-4d44-4f13-90a2-a938292f4739 On 8/9/05, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote: > Type A personalities or Suppressive Personalities rule this planet. We've > moved a little on from Feudalism. > > The future will be one of peace, no want, contentment and no money system. > We will realise our place amongst a whole universe of life-forms. > > Right now we're not evolved enough for it. > > I *do* know this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On > Behalf Of Zell, Chris > Sent: 09 August 2005 16:33 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: ID and scientist fear > > A previous post mentions raises the issue of scientists being 'afraid' > of some things. > > This is a little off topic but I recently attended a small seminar led > by Russell Targ - of CIA/Psychic Remote Viewer fame. After witnessing > several > surprizing demonstrations, you leave with the feeling that, not only is > this stuff real, but it's NO BIG DEAL in an emotional sense. > He said that he went to a conference in Brazil and the reaction was > something like "why are you bothering with this? Of course, psychic > ability > exists, everyone here knows that". He was surprized by the difference > in culture, even among the academics. > > I wonder about UFOs also in regard to this strange "real, not real" > situation. Clearly, there are 'higher-ups' in Europe who think that > American denials > of UFO's are pure BS. The internal Cometa report in France showed this > - with suspicions expressed as to why the US keeps fighting against > disclosure. Some EU authorities were angry that US officials could > glibly dismiss events like the Belgian Triangle incident in the '80s - > in which > an enormous black triangle floated thru the night skies, witnessed by > countless authoritative people, photographed, tracked on radar, and > chased > away by NATO interceptors who couldn't catch it. > > An even goofier situation has prevailed in India in which the India > Daily matter of factly discusses their military contacts with an ET UFO > base > located remotely in the Himilayas! You read the newspaper and it > reports cricket scores, stock quotes, the latest business news and an > editorial on why they should pressure the US on the subject in a very > serious, non sensationalistic way. > > We live in a very strange world.................. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 09:26:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79GPmd8022931; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:26:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79GPk41022905; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:25:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:25:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F8D8F7.5070008 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:25:27 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT RE: Intelligent design References: <48vje6$18ru4mf mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <48vje6$18ru4mf mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: > >Question: Why do I have an appendix? > Answer: As a one month old baby you would die without it. Its not a vestigial organ its lift over firm babyhood. Its just as essential to milk digestion for a baby as any other organ. We only just discovered what its for because some idiot darwinist doctor removed them from a batch of new born kids. Without the side passage of the appendix all the intestinal flora, essential to digestion, would be flushed from the gut with every feed. The appendix also adds millions of white blood cells to the stuff in your gut to keep you disease free. The tonsils have the same immune system function; a white cell rich puss factory in your mouth to catch and kill all those nasty bugs before they find some important organ to attack. Man are we off subject by miles or what! > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 09:50:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79Gnbqi006238; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:49:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79GnZGX006218; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:49:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:49:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:49:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050809164913.GJFA3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Taylor J. Smith" > The evidence for Malevolent Design is compelling; > and it may support the concept of ID if an > evil intelligence rules the universe. Jack, you're beginning to sound like a gnostic. You're describing Yaltabaoth, the Demiurge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaltabaoth From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 09:53:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79Gqa6b008155; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:52:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79GqYfn008120; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:52:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:52:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:52:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050809165205.GKPP3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Zell, Chris" > It's starting to look more and more like we were patched together by > some ET's over a period of time. Here's a few dozen historical references which could support your position: http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/watchers.html Not to mention recent scientific verification of Vedic knowledge: http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/scientific-verif-vedas.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 11:03:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79I2mjl008534; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:03:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79I2knG008510; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:02:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:02:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <49k06j$1stvr7 mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,92,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="63897447:sNHT21897806" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: OT RE: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:02:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Wesley Sez: > > >orionworks Sez: > > > >Question: Why do I have an appendix? > > > > Answer: As a one month old baby you would die without it. Its not a > vestigial organ its lift over firm babyhood. Its just as essential to > milk digestion for a baby as any other organ. We only just discovered > what its for because some idiot darwinist doctor removed them from a > batch of new born kids. Without the side passage of the appendix all > the intestinal flora, essential to digestion, would be flushed > from the gut with every feed. The appendix also adds millions of > white blood cells to the stuff in your gut to keep you disease free. > The tonsils have the same immune system function; a white cell rich > puss factory in your mouth to catch and kill all those nasty bugs > before they find some important organ to attack. Cool! Guess I better start brushing up on my Genesis! This explains why many programmers prefer to comment out "useless" code rather than physically deleting it. One never knows when it might be needed again. > Man are we off subject by miles or what! That has never stopped a good vort debate from happening. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 11:20:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79IJsNZ015900; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:20:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79IJqpt015835; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:19:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:19:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050809141348.044cdeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:19:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT RE: Intelligent design In-Reply-To: <42F8D8F7.5070008 iinet.net.au> References: <48vje6$18ru4mf mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> <42F8D8F7.5070008 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: >Answer: As a one month old baby you would die without it. Its not a >vestigial organ its lift over firm babyhood. Its just as essential to milk >digestion for a baby as any other organ. We only just discovered what its >for because some idiot darwinist doctor removed them from a batch of new >born kids. Oh please, give us a break. Don't you recognize an urban myth when you see it? A doctor who performed unnecessary surgery on healthy infants would spend the rest of his life in jail, even if they survived. Let us stop posting idiotic trolls. Also, any Darwinist would say the organ would probably have vanished by now if it did not serve some purpose. And no biologist claims that we understand all organs and functions. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 11:25:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79IP9hi018334; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:25:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79IP7wI018299; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:25:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:22:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: ID and scientist fear In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someday people will be working for needs instead of for wants. Does this mean the society will stagnate because needs are are finite? No, because beyond on simple material needs people will always need to love and be loved. Harry leaking pen wrote: > if theres no want, and no system of transfer of goods and valuation of > labor (money) then society will stagnate. thas NOT a utopia you > describe. > > btw, on the scientific credibility of esp like things, proven, some > people are just computer jinxs > http://www.canada.com/technology/story.html?id=f6ebf013-4d44-4f13-90a2-a938292 > f4739 > > On 8/9/05, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote: >> Type A personalities or Suppressive Personalities rule this planet. We've >> moved a little on from Feudalism. >> >> The future will be one of peace, no want, contentment and no money system. >> We will realise our place amongst a whole universe of life-forms. >> >> Right now we're not evolved enough for it. >> >> I *do* know this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On >> Behalf Of Zell, Chris >> Sent: 09 August 2005 16:33 >> To: vortex-l eskimo.com >> Subject: ID and scientist fear >> >> A previous post mentions raises the issue of scientists being 'afraid' >> of some things. >> >> This is a little off topic but I recently attended a small seminar led >> by Russell Targ - of CIA/Psychic Remote Viewer fame. After witnessing >> several >> surprizing demonstrations, you leave with the feeling that, not only is >> this stuff real, but it's NO BIG DEAL in an emotional sense. >> He said that he went to a conference in Brazil and the reaction was >> something like "why are you bothering with this? Of course, psychic >> ability >> exists, everyone here knows that". He was surprized by the difference >> in culture, even among the academics. >> >> I wonder about UFOs also in regard to this strange "real, not real" >> situation. Clearly, there are 'higher-ups' in Europe who think that >> American denials >> of UFO's are pure BS. The internal Cometa report in France showed this >> - with suspicions expressed as to why the US keeps fighting against >> disclosure. Some EU authorities were angry that US officials could >> glibly dismiss events like the Belgian Triangle incident in the '80s - >> in which >> an enormous black triangle floated thru the night skies, witnessed by >> countless authoritative people, photographed, tracked on radar, and >> chased >> away by NATO interceptors who couldn't catch it. >> >> An even goofier situation has prevailed in India in which the India >> Daily matter of factly discusses their military contacts with an ET UFO >> base >> located remotely in the Himilayas! You read the newspaper and it >> reports cricket scores, stock quotes, the latest business news and an >> editorial on why they should pressure the US on the subject in a very >> serious, non sensationalistic way. >> >> We live in a very strange world.................. >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 11:30:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79ITbk6022601; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:29:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79ITZ6F022561; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:29:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:29:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48u2gp$195ggdr mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,93,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1381515707:sNHT48303020" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OT RE: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:29:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jed sez: > > >Wesley sez: > > >Answer: As a one month old baby you would die without it. Its not a > >vestigial organ its lift over firm babyhood. Its just as > >essential to milk digestion for a baby as any other organ. We only > > just discovered what its for because some idiot darwinist doctor > > removed them from a batch of new born kids. > > Oh please, give us a break. Don't you recognize an urban myth > when you see it? A doctor who performed unnecessary surgery on > healthy infants would spend the rest of his life in jail, even > if they survived. > > Let us stop posting idiotic trolls. > > Also, any Darwinist would say the organ would probably have > vanished by now if it did not serve some purpose. And no biologist > claims that we understand all organs and functions. > > - Jed Boy! That was a close call. I think I better keep my King James bible nearby, just in case. Methinks there may be another retort. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 11:38:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79IcOKU030243; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:38:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79IcKD5030196; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:38:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:38:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: OT RE: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:37:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050809183751.ILAU3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > And no biologist claims that we > understand all organs and functions. And this is certainly the case with what's left of our caecum: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/vestiges/appendix.html Now, if we become vegans, will our caecum re-evolve? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 11:56:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79ItsRx007299; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:56:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79Itq2h007282; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:55:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:55:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ID and scientist fear Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:55:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j79ItY2e007201 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sense of humour? -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen Sent: 09 August 2005 17:10 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ID and scientist fear if theres no want, and no system of transfer of goods and valuation of labor (money) then society will stagnate. thas NOT a utopia you describe. btw, on the scientific credibility of esp like things, proven, some people are just computer jinxs http://www.canada.com/technology/story.html?id=f6ebf013-4d44-4f13-90a2-a9382 92f4739 On 8/9/05, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote: > Type A personalities or Suppressive Personalities rule this planet. We've > moved a little on from Feudalism. > > The future will be one of peace, no want, contentment and no money system. > We will realise our place amongst a whole universe of life-forms. > > Right now we're not evolved enough for it. > > I *do* know this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On > Behalf Of Zell, Chris > Sent: 09 August 2005 16:33 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: ID and scientist fear > > A previous post mentions raises the issue of scientists being 'afraid' > of some things. > > This is a little off topic but I recently attended a small seminar led > by Russell Targ - of CIA/Psychic Remote Viewer fame. After witnessing > several > surprizing demonstrations, you leave with the feeling that, not only is > this stuff real, but it's NO BIG DEAL in an emotional sense. > He said that he went to a conference in Brazil and the reaction was > something like "why are you bothering with this? Of course, psychic > ability > exists, everyone here knows that". He was surprized by the difference > in culture, even among the academics. > > I wonder about UFOs also in regard to this strange "real, not real" > situation. Clearly, there are 'higher-ups' in Europe who think that > American denials > of UFO's are pure BS. The internal Cometa report in France showed this > - with suspicions expressed as to why the US keeps fighting against > disclosure. Some EU authorities were angry that US officials could > glibly dismiss events like the Belgian Triangle incident in the '80s - > in which > an enormous black triangle floated thru the night skies, witnessed by > countless authoritative people, photographed, tracked on radar, and > chased > away by NATO interceptors who couldn't catch it. > > An even goofier situation has prevailed in India in which the India > Daily matter of factly discusses their military contacts with an ET UFO > base > located remotely in the Himilayas! You read the newspaper and it > reports cricket scores, stock quotes, the latest business news and an > editorial on why they should pressure the US on the subject in a very > serious, non sensationalistic way. > > We live in a very strange world.................. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 12:06:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79J626F011241; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:06:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79J5xAN011195; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:05:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:05:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ID and scientist fear Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:05:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j79J5ctl011035 Resent-Message-ID: <5EkMSB.A.3uC.W6P-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I had that one. My dear old teacher Farooq Abdullah said I had a jinx on machines as I'd make a machine crash just by being near it. He was into PEARL and I was into pooh-poohing in those days. Anyway OT BS. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen Sent: 09 August 2005 17:10 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ID and scientist fear if theres no want, and no system of transfer of goods and valuation of labor (money) then society will stagnate. thas NOT a utopia you describe. btw, on the scientific credibility of esp like things, proven, some people are just computer jinxs http://www.canada.com/technology/story.html?id=f6ebf013-4d44-4f13-90a2-a9382 92f4739 On 8/9/05, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote: > Type A personalities or Suppressive Personalities rule this planet. We've > moved a little on from Feudalism. > > The future will be one of peace, no want, contentment and no money system. > We will realise our place amongst a whole universe of life-forms. > > Right now we're not evolved enough for it. > > I *do* know this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On > Behalf Of Zell, Chris > Sent: 09 August 2005 16:33 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: ID and scientist fear > > A previous post mentions raises the issue of scientists being 'afraid' > of some things. > > This is a little off topic but I recently attended a small seminar led > by Russell Targ - of CIA/Psychic Remote Viewer fame. After witnessing > several > surprizing demonstrations, you leave with the feeling that, not only is > this stuff real, but it's NO BIG DEAL in an emotional sense. > He said that he went to a conference in Brazil and the reaction was > something like "why are you bothering with this? Of course, psychic > ability > exists, everyone here knows that". He was surprized by the difference > in culture, even among the academics. > > I wonder about UFOs also in regard to this strange "real, not real" > situation. Clearly, there are 'higher-ups' in Europe who think that > American denials > of UFO's are pure BS. The internal Cometa report in France showed this > - with suspicions expressed as to why the US keeps fighting against > disclosure. Some EU authorities were angry that US officials could > glibly dismiss events like the Belgian Triangle incident in the '80s - > in which > an enormous black triangle floated thru the night skies, witnessed by > countless authoritative people, photographed, tracked on radar, and > chased > away by NATO interceptors who couldn't catch it. > > An even goofier situation has prevailed in India in which the India > Daily matter of factly discusses their military contacts with an ET UFO > base > located remotely in the Himilayas! You read the newspaper and it > reports cricket scores, stock quotes, the latest business news and an > editorial on why they should pressure the US on the subject in a very > serious, non sensationalistic way. > > We live in a very strange world.................. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 12:26:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79JPu0l019017; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:26:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79JPsOH019004; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:25:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:25:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 15:25:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050809192532.JLFW3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Robin van Spaandonk > It doesn't exist because the energy required to oxidize even a > first level hydrino is at least 10 times larger than any normal > chemical bond energy. Wait, I thought there were many hydrino compounds? Can a hydrino form a covalent bond or not? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 12:35:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79JYZlu022807; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:34:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79JYWoL022778; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:34:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:34:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c59d19$4f203060$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: vestigiality of the human appendix Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:34:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <-B0GKD.A.yjF.IVQ-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Amazing how much "face" 5 minutes of googling can save. Several reasonable arguments exist for the assertion that the appendix has a function in the human immune system. . Yes, Virginia..."vestigiality" is a real word... http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/vestiges/appendix.html Given our current evolutionary knowledge, many biological structures can be considered vestiges. To paraphrase: The human vermiform appendix is one of the most commonly cited, and most disputed, vestigial structures. Evolutionary vestiges are, technically, any diminished structure that previously had a greater physiological significance in an ancestor than at present. Throughout medical history many possible functions for the appendix have been offered, examined, and refuted, including exocrine, endocrine, and neuromuscular functions (Williams and Myers 1994, pp. 28-29). Today, a growing consensus of medical specialists holds that the most likely candidate for the function of the human appendix is as a part of the gastrointestinal immune system. Several reasonable arguments exist for suspecting that the appendix may have a function in immunity. Like the rest of the caecum in humans and other primates, the appendix is highly vascular, is lymphoid-rich, and produces immune system cells normally involved with the gut-associated lymphoid tissue (GALT) (Fisher 2000; Nagler-Anderson 2001; Neiburger et al. 1976; Somekh et al. 2000; Spencer et al. 1985). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 13:04:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79K4Eko004460; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:04:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79K4C4A004429; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:04:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:04:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: OT: vestigiality of the human appendix Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:03:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050809200345.KFGH3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Amazing how much "face" 5 minutes of googling can save. Or taking me out of your kill file. (Re: my post on the caecum :-Þ) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 13:12:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79KC6s1009962; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:12:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79KC4v7009950; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:12:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:12:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c59d1e$8db61fb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050809192532.JLFW3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:11:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Blanton ( ... never got that other post! maybe BillB has you on good-behavior) >> From: Robin van Spaandonk >> It doesn't exist because the energy required to oxidize even a >> first level hydrino is at least 10 times larger than any normal >> chemical bond energy. > Wait, I thought there were many hydrino compounds? Can a > hydrino form a covalent bond or not? I suspect that one answer is that ionic bonds are definitely favored, and that true covalent bonding many be as difficult as with the noble gases, except apparently for the dihydrino, which is mentioned so often by Mills that it must have some sort of preferential structure. The more interesting thing to me is - given the small size and extreme density of moderately shrunken hydrinos, how does one contain them? No alloy or ceramic has covalent bonding tight enough to contain hydrinos of n=8 or so. Here is a site that consideres the properties of solid hydrogen - from which we can derive the properties of the hydrino at high shrinkage. http://www.tvu.com/EngPropsSH2Web.htm Crystal Structure ---------------- High Temperature (>4 K) - hexagonal close packed (hcp)* (low pressure) Density ------------------------------ 22.7 cm 3/mole, 0.088 g/cm3 (does not vary significantly with ortho/para concentration) Since density varies as a cubic relationship with diameter, at the first redundant ground state n=2 the density witll be 8 times higher. At n=6 the density of hydrinos is about 19 g/cc ot about the same as uranium. It should be a solid at STP abouve n=5 or 6. At n=7, however, the density soars to over 30 g/cc which is much higher than osmium, the densest known element. Mills claims to have made and collected n=8 which would have to be contained as an ionic compund, as its density is over 45 g/cc almost twice that of osmium. And its size is so small it would sink through any containment like a sponge, if it were not bound somehow. Has anyone considered that the core of earth (and especailly Jupiter and the gas giants) may be filled not with iron but with hydrinos of greater than n=8. So anwer me this, Subcommander Supremo. What are the implications of a hydrino core? Signer, Harry Tuttle, Ductwork Engineer (and general pain-in-the-keister) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 13:43:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79Kh09S023161; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:43:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79Kh0sm023144; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:43:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:43:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$1a946v9 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,94,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1418861545:sNHT15325496" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: vestigiality of the human appendix Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:42:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <9b7K-.A.kpF.TVR-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Terry sez: > > Jones sez: > > Amazing how much "face" 5 minutes of googling can save. > > Or taking me out of your kill file. (Re: my post on the > caecum :-Þ) At the tender age of seven I had my appendix removed. There was nothing wrong with the organ. They just happened to have been in the vicinity. This extraction event happened at a Seventh Day Adventist hospital in Taipei, Taiwan, back in the early 1960s. Apparently, I had developed what most theorized had to have been a congenital scar tissue problem that was unfortunately constricting the blood flow to my growing gastrointestinal system. It was quite painful. I was told that I would have eventually died of gangrene poisoning in a couple of days had they not gone in and cleared out the scar tissue. I remember the doctors and nurses all gathering around me in the operating table. They performed a little prayer ritual before gassing me under with Ether. (Horrible stuff to inhale, BYW.) For some reason, their prayers, asking the Lord to send me to heaven if they were not successful, did not comfort the child within me. But then, I guess as a child I really wasn't much of a happy camper at that moment in my life. The doctor did fulfill one request I made before I was knocked out. Upon my wakening from my ether induced nightmares he returned my extracted appendix in a small formaldehyde filled jar. He told me that my apparently healthy organ was the longest appendix he had ever seen. To this day I have continued to wonder why my appendix was the longest one the doctor had ever seen. Was there a reason? Is part of my genetic heritage a throw back to more primitive times, or is something else at play? Of course I'll never know. I eventually buried the jar (appendix still intact) in the back yard. As far as my caecum is concerned, dang! I forgot what organ that is. Presumably the doctor didn't remove it. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 13:53:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79KqgPl027742; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:52:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79Kqdsd027690; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:52:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:52:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:58:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050809165205.GKPP3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050809165205.GKPP3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200508091658.03171.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 09 August 2005 12:52, Terry Blanton wrote: > > From: "Zell, Chris" > > > > It's starting to look more and more like we were patched together by > > some ET's over a period of time. > > Here's a few dozen historical references which could support your position: > > http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/watchers.html > > Not to mention recent scientific verification of Vedic knowledge: > > http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/scientific-verif-vedas.html This of course will prove to be the greatest weakness of the so called 'intelligent design' dogma being handed out in Bushite schools. That is that evolution is not really mocked, just that now it has exobiotic roots. These exobiological evolutionary histories will now have to be researched as well in order to gain a truer picture of the real descent of man. This will mean we will have to go to nearby or not so nearby systems and find archaeological evidence there on planets or moons of those systems. During the course of this we may well meet some living relatives as well. How ironic that the very tool by which the religious mean to attack evolution will not only serve to reinforce it but also serve to disestablish the basis of religion itself. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 13:55:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79Kt9sL029151; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:55:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79Kt7LQ029130; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:55:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:55:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:54:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050809205446.MHIT3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > So anwer me this, Subcommander Supremo. What are the implications > of a hydrino core? (Subcommander Orgazmo, please.) Geeze you can ask some heavy questions, dude. Have you discovered the true content of the neutron star? But funny you should ask about the core since it was in the news lately: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725103.700 I am not the one to ask because I do not believe in the hydrino nor classical QM. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 13:58:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79Kvwqm030710; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:58:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79KvuKx030689; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:57:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:57:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Jones Beene" Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:03:32 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050809192532.JLFW3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <002401c59d1e$8db61fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002401c59d1e$8db61fb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200508091703.32812.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 09 August 2005 16:11, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Terry Blanton ( ... never got that other post! maybe BillB > has you on good-behavior) > > >> From: Robin van Spaandonk > >> > >> It doesn't exist because the energy required to oxidize even a > >> first level hydrino is at least 10 times larger than any normal > >> chemical bond energy. > > > > Wait, I thought there were many hydrino compounds? Can a > > hydrino form a covalent bond or not? > > I suspect that one answer is that ionic bonds are definitely > favored, and that true covalent bonding many be as difficult as > with the noble gases, except apparently for the dihydrino, which > is mentioned so often by Mills that it must have some sort of > preferential structure. > > The more interesting thing to me is - given the small size and > extreme density of moderately shrunken hydrinos, how does one > contain them? No alloy or ceramic has covalent bonding tight > enough to contain hydrinos of n=8 or so. > > Here is a site that consideres the properties of solid hydrogen - > from which we can derive the properties of the hydrino at high > shrinkage. > > http://www.tvu.com/EngPropsSH2Web.htm > > > Crystal Structure ---------------- High Temperature (>4 K) - > hexagonal close packed (hcp)* (low pressure) > > Density ------------------------------ 22.7 cm 3/mole, 0.088 g/cm3 > (does not vary significantly with ortho/para concentration) > > Since density varies as a cubic relationship with diameter, at the > first redundant ground state n=2 the density witll be 8 times > higher. At n=6 the density of hydrinos is about 19 g/cc ot about > the same as uranium. It should be a solid at STP abouve n=5 or 6. > At n=7, however, the density soars to over 30 g/cc which is much > higher than osmium, the densest known element. > > Mills claims to have made and collected n=8 which would have to be > contained as an ionic compund, as its density is over 45 g/cc > almost twice that of osmium. And its size is so small it would > sink through any containment like a sponge, if it were not bound > somehow. > > Has anyone considered that the core of earth (and especailly > Jupiter and the gas giants) may be filled not with iron but with > hydrinos of greater than n=8. > > So anwer me this, Subcommander Supremo. What are the implications > of a hydrino core? > > Signer, > > Harry Tuttle, Ductwork Engineer (and general pain-in-the-keister) maybe one should shoot the n>9 hydrinos together at high speeds to see if the result is helium plus quite a bit of energy.....if so one might worry about a hydrino core.......................booooooooom Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 14:06:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79L5oRS001654; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:06:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79L5lJP001617; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:05:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:05:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:05:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050809210523.MMNT3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Terry Blanton ( ... never got that other post! maybe BillB > has you on good-behavior) Great minds, similar paths, yada, yada, yada: http://escribe.com/science/vortex/m37977.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 14:19:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79LIZVA007929; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:18:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79LIXEV007905; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:18:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:18:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:18:07 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B195A9 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Intelligent design Thread-Index: AcWdJGiAxIgoY1M+ScScFcGkYhNZOAAAw52w From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2005 21:18:05.0679 (UTC) FILETIME=[D53D7FF0:01C59D27] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j79LIFhw007769 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given your name, perhaps you like Vine DeLoria's book attacking both Creationism and Evolution ( I think he's Native American) I understand that African cheetahs are anomalous, being nearly natural clones of each other, genetically. Makes you wonder how stuff really got here. -----Original Message----- From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:58 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent design On Tuesday 09 August 2005 12:52, Terry Blanton wrote: > > From: "Zell, Chris" > > > > It's starting to look more and more like we were patched together by > > some ET's over a period of time. > > Here's a few dozen historical references which could support your position: > > http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/watchers.html > > Not to mention recent scientific verification of Vedic knowledge: > > http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/scientific-verif-vedas.html This of course will prove to be the greatest weakness of the so called 'intelligent design' dogma being handed out in Bushite schools. That is that evolution is not really mocked, just that now it has exobiotic roots. These exobiological evolutionary histories will now have to be researched as well in order to gain a truer picture of the real descent of man. This will mean we will have to go to nearby or not so nearby systems and find archaeological evidence there on planets or moons of those systems. During the course of this we may well meet some living relatives as well. How ironic that the very tool by which the religious mean to attack evolution will not only serve to reinforce it but also serve to disestablish the basis of religion itself. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 14:21:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79LKMEF009211; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:20:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79LKJdU009177; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:20:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:20:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vksc$1a0ak1q mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,94,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1409634362:sNHT15636978" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:19:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jones sez: > > Terry sez: > > Wait, I thought there were many hydrino compounds? Can a > > hydrino form a covalent bond or not? > > I suspect that one answer is that ionic bonds are definitely > favored, and that true covalent bonding many be as difficult as > with the noble gases, except apparently for the dihydrino, which > is mentioned so often by Mills that it must have some sort of > preferential structure. This is just an educated guess on my part but it would seem from what little I recall from my chemistry lessons of yesteryear that it would be impossible for hydrinos to form covalent bonds with other atoms. The very attempt to form a covalent bond with another atom, like oxigen, I would think, would essentially destroy the hydrino's n state - specifically the orbital "ground state" shell of the electron. Of course, I could be all wrong on this point. Hydrinos and Ionic Bonds, on the other hand... Isn't it theorized that a free electron can assume the normal ground state orbital shell belonging to a hydrino and as such cause the atom to have a negative charge? This would essentially make a "stable" hydrogen atom with a negative charge. Isn't it through the advantages of ionic bonding that Mills theorizes it might be possible to produce special hydrino hydride batteries with the potential of storing ten times more power more than current generation sold in the market? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 14:25:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79LPHST011925; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:25:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79LPF9Q011882; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:25:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:25:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006001c59d28$c65fb1a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050809205446.MHIT3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:24:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok, Subcommander Orgazmo-Please : > funny you should ask about the core since it was in the news > lately: > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725103.700 Speaking of kill files: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg06834.html Touché? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 14:27:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79LRE9b013200; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:27:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79LRCSI013171; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:27:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:27:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Support for Hy from on-high Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:16:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <1G9ojB.A.rND.v-R-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is a paper by Christianto which has some interesting relevance to the Hydrino. I posted this on the HSG forum but it hasn't shown up yet. Seems like they think that I am too critical of the "golden boy" over there. On vortex, I get the impression that most observers, except for Mike and Robin, who are big hydrino-boosters, are more critical of the Mills-concept than I am. Many on vortex will buy-into the reality of LENR, but not the hydrino, and certainly not the hydrino as a predecessor condition to LENR. However, I would go that far, but with the caveat that it is *not* the Mills-defined hydrino, but very close. In fact, my criticism is limited to the theory - NOT the experiments - which are superb except for the fact that they tend to get interpreted only in the context of a theory which has gaping problems. If one could combine Mills with Puthoff, Hotson and Dirac, then that about says it all for the whole field of free-energy, to my way of thinking. ZPE is likely to be a major source, if not the only energy source of the oscillating hydrino. However in that small percentage of cases where you get really substantial shrinkage - certainly that is strongly exothermic, and would be even more so if you used deuterium - but that may not be the bulk of the actual OU which is seen in Mills. However on HSG, apparently any suggestion that Mills could have made major errors, even tried to hide them, or have a personal agenda (big prize or big IPO) which agenda is leading him astray of both factuality and honesty - is met with utmost rancor and threats of silencing the critics. Perhaps I am in line to be silenced. If so, that may be more a reflection on them than on my occasional recourse to the soapbox. Anyway - Here is the Christianto cite: http://tinyurl.com/9jm7p or http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A//www.belairsky.com/coolbit/fileforyou/FractionalQM-Schrodinger.PDF&ei=tsD4QrL3L7mYYZ2x2IYK To paraphrase: There are cosmic phenomena indicating that a fractional quantization of orbits of macro objects exists, which may support one of the Hydrino hypotheses. For instance the known gravitational-shepherding effect of belts surrounding certain large planets, and also Kirkwood gaps (known since 1857). These are also "quantum-like" gaps in the Asteroid Belt, where one does not find asteroids. One gap corresponds to a body having an orbital period exactly half that of Jupiter. Similar simple relationships between the orbital periods define the other gaps. An analysis of these gaps showed that they corresponded to simple whole fractions of Jupiter's orbital period - just as in the micro situation of hydrogen shrinkage. At the time, no theory could adequately explain the gaps as a result of gravitational interactions, and certain astronomers believed the gaps were present at the inception of the solar system. Recent studies have revealed interesting relationship, which some researchers have called 'fractal orbital resonance'. While this is an interesting alternative explanation, this argument was based on dynamics instead of quantum mechanics. Christianto has proposed some theoretical reasoning to produce that fractional Bohr radius for the hydrogen atom - at a succession of redundant ground states (and also at respective excited states), provided some conditions of energy are met. He has proposed a modification (superset) of the Mills math, which results in a more complete form of equation. There are some other citations in this paper that others may have not studied. They are both good news and bad for CQM and Mills, in that they do support the fractional orbit hypothesis, but NOT in a permanent state, which is at the core of the Mills theory. The hydrino becomes an oscillating semi-permanent state. As a few of us have opined, the hydrino may be a *real* but temporary state, where the "real" source of excess energy, if it exists, is ZPE. Bluhm et al. (going back a decade) have found similar results and obtained the semi-stable radius of hydrogen atom at less than the ground state Bohr radius. These researchers utilize a different method, i.e. short-pulse laser excites a coherent superposition of Rydberg states. This treatment results in a cycle as follows: collapse followed by fractional revival then full revivals. However, it is interesting to note, they find the structure of full revivals is different from the structure at fractional revivals. This approach could be compared with an elastic ball with a void inside the surface. Once we hit the ball against the floor, it will shrink within a short time and then get it initial forms again. Fred Sparber has linked this to the Casimir force. This is also in keeping with Puthoff's viewpoint that ZPE is responsible for - not only the Mills phenomenon - but the Bohr radius itself. IOW it is ZPE which keeps the electron from collapse. Hotson has added the details about the epo lattice which is necessary. Mills has consistently pooh-poohed Puthoff, and why not - it is direct competition, and it precedes Mills by years. But as Pete Zimmerman stated some time ago "Hal Puthoff has been associated with ZPE, mental telepathy, Uri Geller and spoon bending, remote viewing and other rather foolish things. [Zimmerman's comment, not mine] But the fact remains that when he puts his mind to it, he's a pretty good theorist, and despite his reputation his stuff gets published in Phys Rev and it gets read [snip] I consider Puthoff an example that Mills should emulate. Puthoff, in spite of the baggage, gets read and taken seriously by serious scientists; Mills doesn't. Mills is secretive; Puthoff isn't. And that's certainly why few researchers will rearrange their research careers to try and replicate Mills' stuff published in obscure journals. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 14:42:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79LfKTA019826; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:41:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79LfJOH019815; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:41:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:41:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <95a6cdf1-0dc9-4b93-b1a0-045fcccf76ed> Message-ID: <5b9a01c59d2b$010cfc70$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <15770605.1123556806691.JavaMail.root mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <5b1901c59cf4$29859220$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.1.2.2.20050809111710.044edd00@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:40:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Intelligent design > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >The implication of this is that the manifest universe with all its > >complexity can be a process originating from a discrete logical seed whose > >recursive operation is completely deterministic, yet whose product is > >infinitely complex, like the Mandelbrot set. > > That seems manifestly true. > > > >Human brains are arguably the most complex things in the universe . . . > > In the KNOWN universe. I'll bet there are way more complex objects > elsewhere. Furthermore, I'll bet that in another 200 years or so, there > will be computers and other manmade objects more complex than brains. I > hope they are more predictable and they work better than brains! I hope > they do not run Windows Version 100. > > - Jed --------------------------------- Neural networks are ***not*** computers. They are not algorithmic. Penrose, in his book "Shadows of the Mind" devoted a long section to AI and concluded that there are mathematical problems that humans can solve but have no algorithmic solution, therefore beyond "artificial intelligence". Algoritmic computers can be programmed to imitate the non-linear, reentrant structures of neural networks to explore their properties by emulation. However, the bechavior of these emulated networks cannot be "programmed": they may be taught, they may learn. But the closer they get to the complexity of an animal brain the more they will be subject to unpredictable behavior. Perhaps some wired-in features of human brains could be left out. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 14:44:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j79Li8b5021402; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:44:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j79Li65j021374; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:44:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:44:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vkfg$19pf21p mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,94,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1402439737:sNHT15638896" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Intelligent design Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:43:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell sez: ... > I understand that African cheetahs are anomalous, being nearly natural > clones of each other, genetically. Makes you wonder how > stuff really got here. Regarding cheetahs, I've heard scientific speculation that the reason their genetic pool is so unusually narrow (clone-like in nature) was due to the suspicion that this beautiful species may have been nearly wiped off the face of the Serengeti planes many thousands of years ago. A break in the food chain. Mass starvation. Bad weather. Who knows. Perhaps by the grace of god a tiny band of these hearty creatures managed to survive and pass on what little genetic variation left to their progeny. Regarding the "grace of god" term, I speak figuratively here. ;-) On a more speculative and controversial note, one that certainly is NOT scientifically endorsed by the current political climate, some have speculated that cheetahs may have come into existence through a deliberately controlled breeding program, perhaps engineered by an ancient civilization - most likely Egyptian in nature. Regardless, both theories are intriguing. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrinWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 17:06:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A05hDl025234; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:05:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A05f82025217; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:05:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:05:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.50.207] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:05:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050810000519.NKPK24175.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Speaking of kill files: > http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg06834.html > > Touché? Oui, you score. Quoting: "Certainly one of the prime elements produced in the uranium and thorium decay is helium, and some of it does come to the surface in natural gas - but only a fraction of what is expected. " I *knew* there was something which made me interested in the NS article. One should not come unarmed in a battle of wits. Coup d'arrêt - I must widthdraw for a period. I am neglecting my work. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 17:24:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A0NovP000856; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:24:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A0NmDF000806; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:23:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:23:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.50.207] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Sarfati Crosspost Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:23:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050810002325.NQPJ24175.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I found this quite amusing and thought Vorts might enjoy: "Message: 3 Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:01:49 -0700 From: Jack Sarfatti Subject: Re: Correcting UFO disinformation Please transmit to that list that Antigray never checked with me directly about the "alien" hardware allegedly in my possession, nor whether or not I was looking for "recruits" before he made his posts. The answer to both is no. The actual situation is complex and has been garbled mainly by Richard Boylan. Full details are in my autobiography "Destiny Matrix" on Amazon and other major venues. I did not mean to imply by "reverse engineering" that I had actual alien hardware. I had INFORMATION about such alleged hardware and I had a budget of several million dollars to check out the claims. This project is still happening with full knowledge and disclosure to the relevant people in the new National Intelligence Directorate and before that with the CIA. I have no need to justify myself to the skeptics. I will be remembered long after they are forgotten and I am outliving the major ones. :-) Are UFOs real? Yes! Are they a national and planetary military WMD threat? Yes! Do we care what CISCOPS et-al think? No! Do they determine USG policy on such things? No! Are we moving forward: Damn the torpedos full warp ahead? Yes!" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 18:11:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A19Msu020465; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:09:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A19GjZ020417; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:09:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:09:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <038101c59d48$18758bd0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B191BB CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: ID and scientist fear Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:09:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have had some experiences with psychics that were very odd indeed. One picked up on a serious illness I had as a child that required months of hospitalization. She even honed in on the exact amount of months my hospital stay lasted. It was completely out of the blue. She was describing a very defining moment in my life as though she was there when it happen. I left her office with my head spinning?!?. It was the strangest experience of my life. It seeme to confirm to me that there's a lot more to life than meets the eye. I'm not surprised that other societies like Brazil don't regard psychic phenomenon as controversial. Some societies are more in touch with our spiritual selves. I think western societies like American and British are too rational at times and reliant on science to explain everything. There are some ardent skeptics who disavow psychic phenomenon strongly. I wonder how the Russians feel about psychic phenomenon? They seem to have done a lot of psychic experiments over the years. The original shamans were Russian indigenous peoples. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zell, Chris" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:33 AM Subject: ID and scientist fear A previous post mentions raises the issue of scientists being 'afraid' of some things. This is a little off topic but I recently attended a small seminar led by Russell Targ - of CIA/Psychic Remote Viewer fame. After witnessing several surprizing demonstrations, you leave with the feeling that, not only is this stuff real, but it's NO BIG DEAL in an emotional sense. He said that he went to a conference in Brazil and the reaction was something like "why are you bothering with this? Of course, psychic ability exists, everyone here knows that". He was surprized by the difference in culture, even among the academics. I wonder about UFOs also in regard to this strange "real, not real" situation. Clearly, there are 'higher-ups' in Europe who think that American denials of UFO's are pure BS. The internal Cometa report in France showed this - with suspicions expressed as to why the US keeps fighting against disclosure. Some EU authorities were angry that US officials could glibly dismiss events like the Belgian Triangle incident in the '80s - in which an enormous black triangle floated thru the night skies, witnessed by countless authoritative people, photographed, tracked on radar, and chased away by NATO interceptors who couldn't catch it. An even goofier situation has prevailed in India in which the India Daily matter of factly discusses their military contacts with an ET UFO base located remotely in the Himilayas! You read the newspaper and it reports cricket scores, stock quotes, the latest business news and an editorial on why they should pressure the US on the subject in a very serious, non sensationalistic way. We live in a very strange world.................. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 19:20:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A2KSlX022095; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:20:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A2KNDm022049; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:20:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:20:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <5ba201c59d51$ff5ddb20$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:17:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jones Beene" Subject: Support for Hy from on-high > There is a paper by Christianto which has some interesting > relevance to the Hydrino. I posted this on the HSG forum but it > hasn't shown up yet. Seems like they think that I am too critical > of the "golden boy" over there. Jones' spin on this is not quite what happened. Jones posted a political polemic about the corporate offices held by two of the board members: ---------------------------------------------- ....Perhaps... in the sense that Al Capone was a powerful person. Even so, these two are not a tenth as powerful as Bernie Ebbers and Ken Lay were few years ago. And in fairness, they are quick to add that they do not now represent nor condone the substandard ethics which the companies they work for engaged in within the recent past. What else do you expect them to say? But that is not the problem... BLP could have allied itself with ethical partners. To me, this choice of directors shows lack of good judgment on the part of BLP - just the opposite from what is being suggested - but let's make it clear this is not for the two men themselves, who may be honorable men, but for the companies they represent. ------------------------------ BLP is currently in deep negotiations with a number of prospective partners for serious joint ventures. They, as well as BLP, read the HSG forum. The Al Capone link resulted in a threat by BLP to sue for slander. HSG is more closely focused than Vortex. > > On vortex, I get the impression that most observers, except for > Mike and Robin, who are big hydrino-boosters, are more critical of > the Mills-concept than I am. The HSG forum has a number of arch-critics who believe that they have deflated the orbitsphere and all experimental reports that have Mills' name are automatically suspect, even though these may appear in major peer reviewed journals. I defend the experimental results against hit-and-run criticism. Criticisms of BLP experiments must have the same scientific quality as is demanded of BLP itself. Jed has expressed a similar sentiment with respect to LENR. Jones has been more than lukewarm about BLP itself; his political polemics went overboard and caused a flaplet. Many on vortex will buy-into the > reality of LENR, but not the hydrino, and certainly not the > hydrino as a predecessor condition to LENR. However, I would go > that far, but with the caveat that it is *not* the Mills-defined > hydrino, but very close. > > In fact, my criticism is limited to the theory - NOT the > experiments - which are superb except for the fact that they tend > to get interpreted only in the context of a theory which has > gaping problems. OK, the theory *may* have problems; certainly it is audacious and has no general acceptance -- yet. The experiments are consistant with Mills' theory. There may be a be a better one, that will embrace BLP and LENR phenomena. I simply say that they should be pursued separately at present in experiments and development. > > If one could combine Mills with Puthoff, Hotson and Dirac, then > that about says it all for the whole field of free-energy, to my > way of thinking. ZPE is likely to be a major source, if not the > only energy source of the oscillating hydrino. However in that > small percentage of cases where you get really substantial > shrinkage - certainly that is strongly exothermic, and would be > even more so if you used deuterium - but that may not be the bulk > of the actual OU which is seen in Mills. Mills has used deuterium in a few runs. The performance is much like hydrogen, except that some spectral peaks get shifted. There may be different results in the case of extreme shrinkage, but there presently appears no way to enhance the population of deep-shrunk hydrinos. They may be concentrated by liqefaction of gases and fractional distillation -- but that is a research program for graduate students some better day. > > However on HSG, apparently any suggestion that Mills could have > made major errors, even tried to hide them, or have a personal > agenda (big prize or big IPO) which agenda is leading him astray > of both factuality and honesty - is met with utmost rancor and > threats of silencing the critics. Jones is spinning again. HSG is split into two camps, hydrinophiles and hydrinophobes who mostly don't have much to say to each other as the positions have hardened. Like vortex, personal attacks are verboten, but the dialog can get testy. The issue is that Mills' CQM deeply challenges existing paradigms. There is a large body of detailed experimental reports on the website and the critics categorically dismiss all of them as error or taint if at all associated with Mills. Mills has at various times proposed techniques for directly extracting energy from the plasma, which are unworkable. I have posted critical analyses showing why they won't work, without any response, and after a while they are quietly dropped. That Mills could become very rich and get a Nobel prize are obvious possible outcomes, as well as slipping and being swept away. This is not actually discussed much, certainly not with "utmost rancor and threats of silencing critics", certainly not within HSG. I and others will not put up with unfounded slashing attacks on Mills or BLP. BLP watches and defends itself against excessive attacks. As for the HSG forum, Mills no longer posts to it. What is important is not these squabbles in the peanut gallery, but progress by Mills and BLP toward commercialization. The people involved are doing heavy duty due diligence. If any *here* really care about the future of 'new energy' for the US and the world, the honorable and honest thing to do is to let the game go forward to the production of workable devices. BLP is much, much closer than anyone else that I know of. Why try to kill it? Perhaps I am in line to be > silenced. If so, that may be more a reflection on them than on my > occasional recourse to the soapbox. Soapboxes are fine, but so is measured discourse without irresponsible fluorishes. > > Mills has consistently pooh-poohed Puthoff, and why not - it is > direct competition, and it precedes Mills by years. But as Pete > Zimmerman stated some time ago "Hal Puthoff has been associated > with ZPE, mental telepathy, Uri Geller and spoon bending, remote > viewing and other rather foolish things. [Zimmerman's comment, not > mine] But the fact remains that when he puts his mind to it, he's > a pretty good theorist, and despite his reputation his stuff gets > published in Phys Rev and it gets read [snip] I consider Puthoff > an example that Mills should emulate. Puthoff, in spite of the > baggage, gets read and taken seriously by serious scientists; > Mills doesn't. Mills is secretive; Puthoff isn't. And that's > certainly why few researchers will rearrange their research > careers to try and replicate Mills' stuff published in obscure > journals. Jones is spinning again. I've spent a few hours with Puthoff at Earth Tech at a meeting on another subject, with pleasant sidebar conversations about remote viewing and other matters of common interest. I've also spent hours in Mills' presence. Mills has some 65 papers in peer-reviewed journals, many of then high rank like JAP and IEEE publications. How Jones can say that Mills is "secretive" is quite beyond me -- his book is on the website, revised frequently, and many, many experimental reports have been posted on the website over the years. This assertion of secrecy is unsupportable and borders on falsehood. It is like a newspaper who accused the Wright Brothers with being secretive while they were flying their planes over a field nearby. Purhoff's ZPE work does not challenge the whole superstructure of physics the way that Mills' CQM does. For any physicist to stand up and validate CQM is career suicide. Regards, Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 19:31:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A2VDkY026467; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:31:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A2VBLV026441; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:31:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:31:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c59d53$83c5ec80$ad027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OT: Homage a Darwin Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:30:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C59D29.99B9AE70"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C59D29.99B9AE70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C59D29.99BB3510" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C59D29.99BB3510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankR.O Cornwall wrote.. V, I've got a bit of an accidental affinity for Darwin Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 Remi, There are many vorts that have more than an accidental affinity to = Darwin .. and ... err .. some don't . Thanks for the reference to your website. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C59D29.99BB3510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
R.O Cornwall wrote..

V,
I've got a bit of an accidental affinity for Darwin

Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1

Remi,

There are many vorts that have more than an accidental affinity to = Darwin ..=20 and ... err .. some don't .

Thanks for the reference to your website.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C59D29.99BB3510-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C59D29.99B9AE70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c59d53$8241bd80$ad027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C59D29.99B9AE70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 19:38:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A2bofX028952; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:38:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A2bmw7028927; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:37:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:37:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42F96866.1090000 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:37:26 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: vestigiality of the human appendix References: <001701c59d19$4f203060$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001701c59d19$4f203060$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3RmqjC.A.2DH.7hW-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The talk origins paper is good but it does not look at the infant appendix which is proportionally larger than the adult appendix. It stops growing at about age 3 while everything else keeps growing. Talk origins may choose to mention that fact some day. Here's what the creationist have to say. http://www.answersingenesis.org/search/default.aspx?qt=appendix&loadpage=query.html&charset=iso-8859-1&btnSearchGo.x=0&btnSearchGo.y=0 > > > Jones Beene wrote: Amazing how much "face" 5 minutes of googling can > save. Several reasonable arguments exist for the assertion that the > appendix has a function in the human immune system. . > > Yes, Virginia..."vestigiality" is a real word... > http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/vestiges/appendix.html > > Given our current evolutionary knowledge, many biological structures > can be considered vestiges. To paraphrase: > > The human vermiform appendix is one of the most commonly cited, and > most disputed, vestigial structures. Evolutionary vestiges are, > technically, any diminished structure that previously had a greater > physiological significance in an ancestor than at present. Throughout > medical history many possible functions for the appendix have been > offered, examined, and refuted, including exocrine, endocrine, and > neuromuscular functions (Williams and Myers 1994, pp. 28-29). > > Today, a growing consensus of medical specialists holds that the most > likely candidate for the function of the human appendix is as a part > of the gastrointestinal immune system. > > Several reasonable arguments exist for suspecting that the appendix > may have a function in immunity. Like the rest of the caecum in humans > and other primates, the appendix is highly vascular, is lymphoid-rich, > and produces immune system cells normally involved with the > gut-associated lymphoid tissue (GALT) (Fisher 2000; Nagler-Anderson > 2001; Neiburger et al. 1976; Somekh et al. 2000; Spencer et al. 1985). > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 20:02:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A31GOd005600; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:01:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A31EwH005571; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:01:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:01:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c59d57$b48e56f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> <5ba201c59d51$ff5ddb20$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:00:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Carrell" Mike, I am not going to belabor this issue much longer except to state very clearly that my "spin," as you call it, was directed at EDS, one of the most disreputable companies in America. And the fact that BLP, knowing the shoddy reputation of this bunch of thieves, still chose to partner up with them - to the degree that they added the CEO of EDS to their own board. The threat to sue for slander by William Good of BLP was uncalled-for bullying, and he may end up in court over it... ....and even your criticism of me for bringing this point up is implicit support for this company EDS - a company which does, or did in the recent past, bear much in common with a criminal enterprise - much like ENRON, with whom they were very close. Mike, this company, EDS, stole two and one half billion dollars from investors by use of fraudulent accounting - where they booked sales which did not occur. Mike, this company SOLD THEIR OWN STOCK SHORT - that's right, when they found out that they had been caught they tried to recoup some losses by selling options on their own stock. This is unheard-of for a large publicly traded company. Mike, this director, Jordan, when he was hired - immediately gave $20,000 to the Republican National Committee, and large gifts to several administration PACs, and to George Bush himself, and to Texas politicians. This was at a time when criminal prosecution of EDS was in the air. That prosecution did not take place. Was their any tit-for tat? Note: I am not saying that there was anything other than coincidence. But fraud did occur at EDS, prosecution did not occur, and large gifts were made. You can make of it what you will. Perhaps Richard -our Texas colleague, who is an ethical businessman and closer to this than anyone I know of, can set me straight if I have been too harsh on EDS. Until I hear otherwise from people closer to the situation than the Wall Street Journal - who do occasionally get things wrong, I will persist in saying that your are way out of line here Mike. As is William Good of BLP and his chilling threats to SLAPP, as they say. You have consistently tried to shift the focus of this discussion away from EDS, and the EXTREMELY POOR CHOICE of BLP in allying themselves with a quasi-criminal enterprise. Hey, ignore the warning and shot the messenger... I thought that tactic went out with the barbarians. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 21:16:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A4G0hn003935; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:16:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A4Fxoc003901; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:15:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:15:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: DiHydrino Oxide Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:15:35 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1rvif1hppikdidklvttp3d5lm9cte3t3qh 4ax.com> References: <48vksc$1a0ak1q mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <48vksc$1a0ak1q mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.56.12] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 10 Aug 2005 04:15:35 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7A4FfcE003812 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to 's message of Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:19:52 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Hydrinos and Ionic Bonds, on the other hand... Isn't it theorized that a free electron can assume the normal ground state orbital shell belonging to a hydrino and as such cause the atom to have a negative charge? This would essentially make a "stable" hydrogen atom with a negative charge. [snip] This is the entity that Mills calls hydrinohydride. After shrinking a couple of levels the binding energy of the second electron becomes so large that the neutral hydrino is essentially a far better oxidant than Fluorine. IOW neutral hydrino + any other atom -> hydrinohydride + positive ion of other atom. The result is an ionic bond. This is also how hydrinos are contained. As soon as they make contact with the walls of any container they form a hydrinohydride salt layer, and are essentially immobilized. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 23:49:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A6nWEM020462; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:49:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A6nUP0020445; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:49:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:49:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:49:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Bladeless Turbine Thermal Efficiency Limit X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42f9a363.445.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.112 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >> The company promoting the design asserted >> "Rockets, widely recognized as the most efficient engines, are >> typically propelled by steam. Based on >> >> Is that BS I smell? This is the first time I've heard that assertion, >> I would think that it would be quite the opposite. >> >> >If you burn oxygen with hydrogen you get superheated water vapor. Is >that not steam? > That's not the question i intended to ask. How thermally efficient is a rocket engine? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 9 23:55:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A6tOZA022539; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:55:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A6tNAV022520; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:55:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:55:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:55:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42f9a4ca.44b.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.112 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5c7QBB.A.0fF.bTa-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I found this quite amusing and thought Vorts might enjoy: > Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:01:49 -0700 > From: Jack Sarfatti > >Are UFOs real? Yes! Are they a national and planetary military WMD >threat? Yes! Do we care what CISCOPS et-al think? No! Do they determine >USG policy on such things? No! Are we moving forward: Damn the torpedos >full warp ahead? Yes!" > Wow, this sounds like something on C to C AM! I like Sarfati's spirit, and couldn't resist responding to it. Steven V Johnson, did you notice this? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 01:32:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7A8VoG4029286; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:32:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7A8Vnt9029271; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:31:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:31:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=U4oQ1DkC1vfeWpw44FsfaKW3cO78T+aDIqUc5Ak2Pnh+oiIA1Q0KT00uISOm13tF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200583107314140 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bladeless Turbine Thermal Efficiency Limit Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:31:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403a50a4387bc78ba645019c47ef7fb369350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.201 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thomas malloy wrote: > > That's not the question i intended to ask. How thermally > efficient is a rocket engine? > If you want an answer go to GOOGLE, Thomas. Or contact former list members. Don't expect any technical answers/dialogue on Vortex-L these days, Thomas. It has undergone a metamorphosis into a Liberal Arts-Social Science 101 Level discussion group. :-( Regards Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Thomas malloy wrote:
>
> That's not the question i intended to ask. How thermally
> efficient is a rocket engine?
>
If you want an answer go to GOOGLE, Thomas. Or contact former list members.
 
Don't expect any technical answers/dialogue on Vortex-L these days, Thomas.
 
It has undergone a metamorphosis into a Liberal Arts-Social Science 101 Level discussion group. :-(
 
Regards
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 03:04:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AA3xBN029700; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:04:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AA3vPT029685; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:03:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:03:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: Penrose on Brains Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:03:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59D92.C7F63196" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <0TxgE.A.sPH.NEd-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D92.C7F63196 Content-Type: text/plain Penrose gets to the heart of the problem. It all stems back to Charles Babbage, David Hilbert, Alan Turin, John Neumann and the idea that a computer could be built to churn away at the problem space. Penrose has realised that some problems just cannot be contemplated by a clanking algorithmic computer - eg. things like inductive solutions. You need a leap of 'faith' to see the solution. He suggests quantum computers might have this ability. He suggests some nano-sized body in brain cells that may be capable of this, forgotten what they are called. There may even be other brain types capable of comprehending stuff that the average human cannot - spirituality, musical ability and so on. I think we need to remind ourselves, probably, just how basic we are. Won't it be good when we find out that we are not the best technology on the block. I know you people hate me for not sticking around and getting into the fray. 'Fraid I've got to love you and leave you. Mmwaah, big kiss XXX missing you already. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D92.C7F63196 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Penrose gets to the heart of the problem. It all = stems back to Charles Babbage, David Hilbert, Alan Turin, John Neumann and the = idea that a computer could be built to churn away at the problem = space.

 

Penrose has realised that some problems just cannot = be contemplated by a clanking algorithmic computer – eg. things like inductive solutions. You need a leap of ‘faith’ to see the solution. He suggests quantum computers might have this ability. He = suggests some nano-sized body in brain cells that may be capable of this, = forgotten what they are called.

 

There may even be other brain types capable of = comprehending stuff that the average human cannot – spirituality, musical = ability and so on. I think we need to remind ourselves, probably, just how basic we = are.

 

Won’t it be good when we find out that we are = not the best technology on the block.

 

 

I know you people hate me for not sticking around = and getting into the fray. ‘Fraid I’ve got to love you and = leave you.

Mmwaah, big kiss XXX missing you = already.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D92.C7F63196-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 06:24:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7ADO3JC012152; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:24:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7ADO1gV012103; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:24:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:24:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59DAE.B5B84E56" Subject: RE: Penrose on Brains Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:23:34 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B1974E CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Penrose on Brains Thread-Index: AcWdkvl5osYT2GUIQtKJjOiIgcq8dwAGv6aA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2005 13:23:35.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5E17850:01C59DAE] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59DAE.B5B84E56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have hoped for something like this - as sort of 'brickwall' that science runs into, to force them to look at ESP as the product of linkage with a Universal Mind. I think it was Schrodinger who conceived of consciousness as a single thing, spread out across the cosmos. =20 The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps of understanding is simply a matter of degree. Those who denigrate psychic phenomena probably have no problem with the sterotype of a light bulb appearing above their heads, as new concepts simply pop into their minds. ________________________________ From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:04 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: Penrose on Brains Penrose gets to the heart of the problem. It all stems back to Charles Babbage, David Hilbert, Alan Turin, John Neumann and the idea that a computer could be built to churn away at the problem space. =20 Penrose has realised that some problems just cannot be contemplated by a clanking algorithmic computer - eg. things like inductive solutions. You need a leap of 'faith' to see the solution. He suggests quantum computers might have this ability. He suggests some nano-sized body in brain cells that may be capable of this, forgotten what they are called. =20 There may even be other brain types capable of comprehending stuff that the average human cannot - spirituality, musical ability and so on. I think we need to remind ourselves, probably, just how basic we are. =20 Won't it be good when we find out that we are not the best technology on the block. =20 =20 I know you people hate me for not sticking around and getting into the fray. 'Fraid I've got to love you and leave you. Mmwaah, big kiss XXX missing you already. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59DAE.B5B84E56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have hoped for something like this - as sort = of=20 'brickwall' that science runs into, to force them to look at ESP as the = product=20 of linkage
with a Universal Mind. I think it was = Schrodinger who=20 conceived of consciousness as a single thing, spread out across the=20 cosmos.
 
The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps = of=20 understanding is simply a matter of degree.  Those who denigrate = psychic=20 phenomena
probably have no problem with the sterotype of = a light bulb=20 appearing above their heads, as new concepts simply pop into their=20 minds.

From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk=20 [mailto:R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, August = 10, 2005=20 6:04 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: OT: Penrose = on=20 Brains

Penrose gets to the heart = of the=20 problem. It all stems back to Charles Babbage, David Hilbert, Alan = Turin, John=20 Neumann and the idea that a computer could be built to churn away at the = problem=20 space.

 

Penrose has realised that = some=20 problems just cannot be contemplated by a clanking algorithmic computer = – eg.=20 things like inductive solutions. You need a leap of ‘faith’ = to see the solution.=20 He suggests quantum computers might have this ability. He suggests some=20 nano-sized body in brain cells that may be capable of this, forgotten = what they=20 are called.

 

There may even be other = brain types=20 capable of comprehending stuff that the average human cannot – = spirituality,=20 musical ability and so on. I think we need to remind ourselves, = probably, just=20 how basic we are.

 

Won’t it be good = when we find out=20 that we are not the best technology on the = block.

 

 

I know you people hate me = for not=20 sticking around and getting into the fray. ‘Fraid I’ve got = to love you and leave=20 you.

Mmwaah, big kiss XXX = missing you=20 already.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59DAE.B5B84E56-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 07:46:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AEjaTI026732; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:45:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AEjXmN026714; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:45:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:45:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <49jvrm$1d6s6s mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:45:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I found this quite amusing and thought Vorts might enjoy: > > > Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:01:49 -0700 > > From: Jack Sarfatti > > > > Are UFOs real? Yes! Are they a national and planetary > > military WMD threat? Yes! Do we care what CISCOPS et-al > > think? No! Do they determine USG policy on such things? > > No! Are we moving forward: > > Damn the torpedos full warp ahead? Yes!" > > > Wow, this sounds like something on C to C AM! I like > Sarfati's spirit, and couldn't resist responding to it. > Steven V Johnson, did you notice this? Yes, I read it. I gather you must have read a collection of Sarfati posts I shared on Vortex some time ago. The gist of my problem was that I was trying to get myself removed from a Sarfati mailing list I never asked to join. Sarfati claimed he was not responsible for the managment of the mailing list. In any case, the list occasionally contained mean spirited vindictive dialogue originating from Sarfati. I really didn't want to subject myself to his diatribes. In my communications with Sarfati I got quite an earful in my attempt to get removed. "Go f__k yourself" was one of his responses. The tragedy, as I perceive it, is that Sarfati probably IS a genius. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 09:15:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AGEYoD013210; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:14:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AGEW3o013185; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:14:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:14:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c59dc6$81f241b0$8b027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Penrose on Brains Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:13:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C59D9C.989EF360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C59D9C.989EF360 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C59D9C.989EF360" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C59D9C.989EF360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankChris Zell wrote.. The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps of understanding is = simply a matter of degree. Those who denigrate psychic phenomena probably have no problem with the sterotype of a light bulb appearing = above their heads, as new concepts simply pop into their minds. Chris, thats a stretch. I can accept the intuitative rather than the = physic. As I read the various posts on this and IT vs. Darwin etc. I = think about one subject often ignored.=20 TIME If we presume time to have a beginning, we place ourselves in a box. If = we attempt to conceive time as " eternal" with no ending we in turn are = faced with the question.. what if time had NO start.. it is eternal.. no = beginning. Tryng to grasp a concept of time eternal is impossible to = gather into one's focus. It would mean that... No matter how much time elapses from this moment on into eternity.. that = measure of time would NEVER equal the amount of time that has passed. = This is one on paradoxes facing the true scientist. The paradox is that = it is the one scientific fact that is impossible to grasp in its = significance. A proper view of time will open understanding to the depth of the task = facing CF research. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C59D9C.989EF360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Chris Zell wrote..
 
The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps = of=20 understanding is simply a matter of degree.  Those who denigrate = psychic=20 phenomena
probably have no problem with the sterotype of = a light bulb=20 appearing above their heads, as new concepts simply pop into their=20 minds.

Chris, thats a stretch. I can accept the intuitative rather than the = physic.=20 As I read the various posts on this and IT vs. Darwin etc. I think about = one=20 subject often ignored.

TIME

If we presume time to have a beginning, we place ourselves in a box. = If we=20 attempt to conceive time as " eternal" with no ending we in turn are = faced with=20 the question.. what if time had NO start.. it is eternal.. no beginning. = Tryng=20 to grasp a concept of time eternal is impossible to gather into one's = focus. It=20 would mean that...

No matter how much time elapses from this moment on into eternity.. = that=20 measure of time would NEVER equal the amount of time that has passed. = This is=20 one on paradoxes facing the true scientist. The paradox is that it is = the one=20 scientific fact that is impossible to grasp in its significance.

A proper view of time will open understanding to the depth of the = task facing=20 CF research.

Richard


 

------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C59D9C.989EF360-- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C59D9C.989EF360 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001401c59dc6$8171ee20$8b027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C59D9C.989EF360-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 09:23:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AGMmsL016850; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:23:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AGMiUf016814; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:22:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:22:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <6b1701c59dc7$ae7f7ad0$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> <5ba201c59d51$ff5ddb20$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <002c01c59d57$b48e56f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:20:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Carrell" > > Mike, I am not going to belabor this issue much longer except to > state very clearly that my "spin," as you call it, was directed at > EDS, one of the most disreputable companies in America. And the > fact that BLP, knowing the shoddy reputation of this bunch of > thieves, still chose to partner up with them - to the degree that > they added the CEO of EDS to their own board. MC: Jones, this is guilt by association. Senior officers of corporations often sit on the boards of other corporations without there being a "partnership". The days of the 'interlocking directorates' are in the past. The markets for EDS hardly overlap with those of BLP. Perhaps you think that the EDS guy was brought on board to educate BLP in fiancial manipulation and other chicanery. You go on to say the individuals may be honorable men -- if so, why the fuss? This then appears as an opportunity to vent your personal frustrations. > > The threat to sue for slander by William Good of BLP was > uncalled-for bullying, and he may end up in court over it... MC: That may be interesting. Were you not bullying as well? If you have followed my posts about BLP, you should be aware that negotiations are going on which could be disturbed by your remarks. Should such derail them, is your pique appropriate? > > ....and even your criticism of me for bringing this point up is > implicit support for this company EDS - a company which does, or > did in the recent past, bear much in common with a criminal > enterprise - much like ENRON, with whom they were very close. > > Mike, this company, EDS, stole two and one half billion dollars > from investors by use of fraudulent accounting - where they booked > sales which did not occur. > > Mike, this company SOLD THEIR OWN STOCK SHORT - that's right, when > they found out that they had been caught they tried to recoup some > losses by selling options on their own stock. This is unheard-of > for a large publicly traded company. > > Mike, this director, Jordan, when he was hired - immediately gave > $20,000 to the Republican National Committee, and large gifts to > several administration PACs, and to George Bush himself, and to > Texas politicians. This was at a time when criminal prosecution of > EDS was in the air. > > That prosecution did not take place. > > Was their any tit-for tat? Note: I am not saying that there was > anything other than coincidence. But fraud did occur at EDS, > prosecution did not occur, and large gifts were made. You can make > of it what you will. > > Perhaps Richard -our Texas colleague, who is an ethical > businessman and closer to this than anyone I know of, can set me > straight if I have been too harsh on EDS. > > Until I hear otherwise from people closer to the situation than > the Wall Street Journal - who do occasionally get things wrong, I > will persist in saying that your are way out of line here Mike. As > is William Good of BLP and his chilling threats to SLAPP, as they > say. You have consistently tried to shift the focus of this > discussion away from EDS, and the EXTREMELY POOR CHOICE of BLP in > allying themselves with a quasi-criminal enterprise. > > Hey, ignore the warning and shot the messenger... I thought that > tactic went out with the barbarians. OK, you may have a point to state the public knowledge about EDS. Jordan apparently invested a lot of money to be an "angel investor". He also has a track record as an investor. Tom Stolper dug up the following information on Johnson: ------------------- The URL Google gave for the interview was www.eds.com/news/news.aspx?news_id=2294 According to the Editor's Note to the interview, Jordan is Chairman and CEO of EDS and joined EDS in March 2003 [a date that suggests that he was hired to solve the problems that message 9391 alleged existed]. Jordan was also chairman and CEO of CBS (formerly Westinghouse Electric) from 1993 to 1998. Before that he was CFO at Pepsi and a principal at McKinsey & Co. [one of the world's leading consulting firms]. Jordan also once served as chairman of the United Negro College Fund, not to mention four years in the U.S. Navy. Another Google hit said that upon becoming chairman and CEO of EDS in 2003, Jordan resigned from over ten years as a director of Dell Computer. There's more, and it all adds up to a VERY distinguished and honorable record. ----------------------- So perhaps Johnson was hired to fix EDS and should not be guilty of EDS's problems as you imply. Giving gifts to politicians is hardly a disqualification. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 09:59:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AGwuOo000685; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:59:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AGwtwj000673; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:58:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:58:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:56:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: TIME In-reply-to: <001901c59dc6$81f241b0$8b027841 xptower> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: MetaSciences Academy Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-bQmEC.A.cK.PJj-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > As I read the various posts on this and IT vs. Darwin etc. I think about one > subject often ignored. > > TIME > > If we presume time to have a beginning, we place ourselves in a box. If we > attempt to conceive time as " eternal" with no ending we in turn are faced > with the question.. what if time had NO start.. it is eternal.. no beginning. > Tryng to grasp a concept of time eternal is impossible to gather into one's > focus. It would mean that... > > No matter how much time elapses from this moment on into eternity.. that > measure of time would NEVER equal the amount of time that has passed. This is > one on paradoxes facing the true scientist. The paradox is that it is the one > scientific fact that is impossible to grasp in its significance. > > A proper view of time will open understanding to the depth of the task facing > CF research. Good question. What matters then is the flow of time, rather than a duration of time. The flow is a constant according to Newton. However, he left the concept mathematically undefined. Einstein concerned himself with duration and said that duration is relative. No one has yet mathematically defined the flow of time. It is NOT equivalent to letting the length of a duration approach zero. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 10:33:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AHWkbA017040; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:33:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AHWj5X017018; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:32:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:32:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c59dd1$76cd5120$8b027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:32:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C59DA7.8D6939F0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.1 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C59DA7.8D6939F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C59DA7.8D6AC090" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C59DA7.8D6AC090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones Beene wrote.. >Perhaps Richard -our Texas colleague, who is an ethical=20 businessman and closer to this than anyone I know of, can set me=20 straight if I have been too harsh on EDS. Jones, at 78 years , I question my sense of ethics more than in the past = .We do have a "code of conduct and ethics" published on our website more = as a reminder to ourselves that the world is watching rather than = convince anyone else. I gather that there is an objection to Vernon Jordan serving on the = board of BLP. Mike Carrell makes a good case for his support for BLP. = They need all the help they can get in encouragement. Personally, I = would have looked at marketing the ideas different but , who am I to = question sucess in venture start-ups. BLP has their own dragons to slay = to maintain focus and credibility and PRODUCE!!.The first thing I would = do with BLP is CHANGE THEIR NAME PRONTO! Negative connotations within = the name is gonna kill them. EDS was a Ross Perot venture. Had good success and profits from a well = managed firm. Sold to General Motors and later spun off as a stand alone = firm. Ross Perot ran a spoiling campaign for Prez. He lost .but, what = the heck. He wound up cashing in EDS to GM. Started the Reliance venture = in Ft. Worth and wound up with the numero uno commercial airport plus = all the land goodies surrounding the airport. Plus some heavy Clinton = influence with FAA and all the helpings that FAA money can throw at = something like Stapelton, Reliance , et/al. with the attendant liscenses = for commercial airports which makes WalMart smile. Meanwhile back at the ranch, Vernon Jordan , the consumate politico = buddy of Clinton, sits like a 1000 # gorilla . on any board he choses = while he is not finding a job for Monica Lewinski. I would say that if Jones was a bit of a skeptic on the matter of = musical chairs of board member at BLP. Who am I to question ?Down here = in Texas, where no man's life nor property is safe while the legislators = are in session, nothing much happens outside of a good barroom brawl = with shotguns, machetes and pistolas. .. err ..well ... maybe a gal may = bite you on the leg.. but that comes with hanging out in saloons. We = tried to make Enron operate like the rest of the US corporations and all = we got for it was bad press. Nobody appreciated our 21st century Enron = version of Jesse James old time train robbery thrills. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C59DA7.8D6AC090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones Beene wrote..

>Perhaps Richard -our Texas colleague, who is an ethical =
businessman=20 and closer to this than anyone I know of, can set me
straight if I = have been=20 too harsh on EDS.

Jones, at 78 years , I question my sense of ethics more than in = the=20 past .We do have a "code of conduct and ethics" published on our = website=20 more as a reminder to ourselves that the world is watching rather than = convince=20 anyone else.

I gather that there is an objection to Vernon Jordan serving on the = board of=20 BLP. Mike Carrell makes a good case for his support for BLP. They need = all the=20 help they can get in encouragement. Personally, I would have looked at = marketing=20 the ideas different but , who am I to question sucess in venture = start-ups. BLP=20 has their own dragons to slay to maintain focus and credibility and=20 PRODUCE!!.The first thing I would do with BLP is CHANGE THEIR NAME = PRONTO! =20 Negative connotations within the name is gonna kill them.

EDS was a Ross Perot venture. Had good success and profits from a = well=20 managed firm. Sold to General Motors and later spun off as a stand alone = firm.=20 Ross Perot ran a spoiling campaign for Prez. He lost .but, what the = heck. He=20 wound up cashing in EDS to GM. Started the Reliance venture in Ft. Worth = and=20 wound up with the numero uno commercial airport plus all the land = goodies=20 surrounding the airport. Plus some heavy Clinton influence with FAA and = all the=20 helpings that FAA money can throw at something like Stapelton, Reliance = , et/al.=20 with the attendant liscenses for commercial airports which makes WalMart = smile.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, Vernon Jordan , the consumate politico = buddy of=20 Clinton, sits like a 1000 # gorilla . on any board he choses while he is = not=20 finding a job for Monica Lewinski.

I would say that if Jones was a bit of a skeptic on the matter of = musical=20 chairs of board member at BLP.  Who am I to question ?Down here in = Texas,=20 where no man's life nor property is safe while the legislators are in = session,=20 nothing much happens outside of a good barroom brawl with shotguns, = machetes and=20 pistolas. .. err ..well ... maybe a gal may bite you on the leg.. = but that=20 comes with hanging out in saloons.  We tried to make Enron operate = like the=20 rest of the US corporations and all we got for it was bad press. Nobody=20 appreciated our 21st century Enron version of Jesse James old time train = robbery thrills.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C59DA7.8D6AC090-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C59DA7.8D6939F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c59dd1$76221d00$8b027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C59DA7.8D6939F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 11:19:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AIIaPf008264; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:18:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AIIYoM008203; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:18:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:18:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810140905.04508820 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:17:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high In-Reply-To: <6b1701c59dc7$ae7f7ad0$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> <5ba201c59d51$ff5ddb20$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <002c01c59d57$b48e56f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6b1701c59dc7$ae7f7ad0$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > thieves, still chose to partner up with them - to the degree that > > they added the CEO of EDS to their own board. > >MC: Jones, this is guilt by association. Senior officers of corporations >often sit on the boards of other corporations . . . No, this is not "guilt by association." This is an actual business associate. If, as claimed, he consorts with unethical people those are perfectly reasonable grounds to doubt his ethics. Guilt by association is a logical fallacy: "Guilt by Association is a fallacy in which a person rejects a claim simply because it is pointed out that people she dislikes accept the claim. . . . 1. It is pointed out that people person A does not like accept claim P. 2. Therefore P is false [Example] 'You think that 1+1=2. But, Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Joseph Stalin, and Ted Bundy all believed that 1+1=2. So, you shouldn't believe it.'" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html Along the same lines, there is a great deal of confusion about another logical fallacy, "appeal to authority." Skeptics often mistakenly accuse cold fusion supporters of this fallacy. If I say: "John Bockris says there is no recombination in his experiments," that is not an appeal to authority because Bockris is actually a world-class authority on electrochemistry. This fallacy is more accurately known as "fallacious appeal to authority," "misuse of authority" or "irrelevant authority." When a skeptic says: "Gary Taubes says there was recombination in Bockris' experiment," that is a fallacious appeal to authority, because Taubes does not know an anode from a cathode. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 11:31:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AIUXCK020942; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:30:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AIUV9C020910; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:30:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:30:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=gEiIckugU5jwZqNXPc87z/UlZmMMkumLj0u7bcgCkuKSOAAQ9ist6K2qbr2RyeTktmxpCWTaTzlf17PSVqcPhFvnC3yXSEmrPqoLtv3GxzTL5tOc2bYhSkeRAzEPtXGPCrLo7j05GuOUADOQWlBQv7lsi+aBTu5H54XL9u+F/P4= ; Message-ID: <20050810183006.91047.qmail web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:30:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Penrose on Brains To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001901c59dc6$81f241b0$8b027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-342629362-1123698606=:90177" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-342629362-1123698606=:90177 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline I subscribe to the concept of time as an illusion. It was summed up quite well in a (fictional) book I was reading the other day, in that God (or rather the gods of the book) saw time as one moment, incompassing all possibilites past and future, but the fate of the world depended on the mortal perception of time as a progression, a window which gives meaning and definition to the endless possibilities. I realize that this has almost no applicability to scientific reasoning, based as it is on cause and effect. I feel that non-physical effects such as ESP and certain energetic healing disciplines can transcend this temporal barrier, but our physical reality is forced into a linear timeline by the demands of consciousness. --- RC Macaulay wrote: > BlankChris Zell wrote.. > > The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps of > understanding is simply a matter of degree. Those > who denigrate psychic phenomena > probably have no problem with the sterotype of a > light bulb appearing above their heads, as new > concepts simply pop into their minds. > Chris, thats a stretch. I can accept the intuitative > rather than the physic. As I read the various posts > on this and IT vs. Darwin etc. I think about one > subject often ignored. > > TIME > > If we presume time to have a beginning, we place > ourselves in a box. If we attempt to conceive time > as " eternal" with no ending we in turn are faced > with the question.. what if time had NO start.. it > is eternal.. no beginning. Tryng to grasp a concept > of time eternal is impossible to gather into one's > focus. It would mean that... > > No matter how much time elapses from this moment on > into eternity.. that measure of time would NEVER > equal the amount of time that has passed. This is > one on paradoxes facing the true scientist. The > paradox is that it is the one scientific fact that > is impossible to grasp in its significance. > > A proper view of time will open understanding to the > depth of the task facing CF research. > > Richard > > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --0-342629362-1123698606=:90177-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 11:39:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AIcThv025315; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:38:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AIcL5P025192; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:38:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:38:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810142238.04507e70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:37:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810140905.04508820 pop.mindspring.com> References: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> <5ba201c59d51$ff5ddb20$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <002c01c59d57$b48e56f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6b1701c59dc7$ae7f7ad0$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.1.2.2.20050810140905.04508820 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >If, as claimed, he consorts with unethical people those are perfectly >reasonable grounds to doubt his ethics. That is to say, if BLP has a director who is also part of another company which is known to engage in undisputed, egregiously unethical behavior, that makes BLP unethical. I am assuming they are aware of the unethical behavior. Companies like Data General were famous for engaging in what some people called borderline unethical behavior, but others considered driving a hard deal and taking advantage of competitors' weaknesses. It did not seem unethical to me, although it made me a little wary of dealing with the company. But if Data General founder Ed DeCastro wanted to invest in a cold fusion venture with me, I would welcome him! Mike Carrell's defense: "The markets for EDS hardly overlap with those of BLP" seems irrelevant to me. I know nothing about EDS, but if I became aware that a business associate of mine was in any way associated with a company such as Enron, I would immediately sever the relationship. There are millions of ethical, aboveboard people in the world to choose from. There is no need to associate with slimy people, unless you owe them a favor, or they have "made you an offer you cannot refuse." ("The Godfather") - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 11:48:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AIllms031659; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:48:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AIlk27031650; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:47:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:47:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01c59ddb$f1466bd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> <5ba201c59d51$ff5ddb20$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <002c01c59d57$b48e56f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6b1701c59dc7$ae7f7ad0$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:47:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C59DA1.44691500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C59DA1.44691500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Richard, The new CEO of EDS is Mike Jordan not Vernon Jordan, and those two have = very polarized political connections. I think the "United Negro College = Fund" thing threw you off. This one is white and a big Republican. In = fact he made the "Top10" list of CEO contributors (100% Republican). http://tinyurl.com/bsbu2=20 . You won't read about that, or any other negatives, in the glowing = company PR release mentioned by Mike Carrell: http://www.eds.com/news/mediaclippings/downloads/inside_new_eds.pdf Jordan, as I said is probably an honorable man, and very well connected = in the Republican Party, in a time when EDS needed political = connections. His business acumen is in doubt however, as he is taking = the blame for gigantic multi-hundred-million dollar losses in a contract = with the Marine Corps which he insisted on winning. Last point - and then I'm done with what is turning into a short-sighted = thread. Mike, your stance - in the larger context of finding a way out of the = fossil fuel dilemma - is appearing short-sighted and almost selfish - = but in fairness let me say that it is based on your unflinching = commitment to a company which may or may not have something of value. = Yet you want that company alone to be the beneficiary of every = indulgence and leniency in a field fraught with con-artists, some very = sophisticated - and when others honestly feel that BLP has demonstrated = nothing of value to the general public. Yet you feel that all nay-sayers = have something personal against BLP. I do not look at this as personal = in any way, and have said many times that BLP probably will have a = viable technology some day - but they have not even come close to = demonstrating it in public. I think we should hereafter, in regards to BLP's credibility, institute = the "Rothwell Test." Jed is very open-minded about LENR and understands = the broader-field very well, but has not yet been convinced of BLP's = work. When he is finally convinced that BLP has demonstrated something = of commercial usefulness, then we can say for our purposes, it has = reached a certain credibility plateau - and that others should get on = the bandwagon and give it the same kind of indulgence and trust which = Mike Carrell now gives it. Otherwise, the result of that short-sightedness could be very = devastating to other fledgling companies and good ideas, in need of = support from a limited number of "angels" --- in fact to the whole field = of LENR. These are companies and researchers who are on the verge of = being able to actually demonstrate something useful with tens of = thousands of dollars - which BLP has not been able to do so far with 10s = of millions. Why should we care - simple - there is only so much total R&D capital = available for all of alternative energy. There are few investors and = lots of needs. If a slick promoter comes around and gets most of that = discretionary "angel" money then many others will suffer.=20 > You go on to say the individuals may be honorable men -- if > so, why the fuss? This then appears as an opportunity to vent=20 > your personal frustrations. Absolutely NO personal frustrations are involved on my end. I am = concerned about the future of the whole field of alternative energy, = while you seem to only focus on a single company. Many observers who = have no axe to grind, do NOT feel that BLP is up to the task. Maybe you = have seen something that we have not - but so far, everything coming = from BLP is a huge disappointment, considering the time and the amount = of money they have already burned through. If BLP should push through a really big IPO - based on what little they = have shown in public, knowing that they cannot produce a product quickly = - and they have consistently shown over the last 14 years that they = cannot even bring an OU prototype device to public scrutiny - then = yes... that would be a huge tragedy for the whole field, including and = especially LENR, all of cold fusion, ZPE conversion, MAHG, = Ultraconductors, magnetics and everything else. I hope now you can see where I am coming from - it is not personal - why = should it be?=20 I have no monetary stake in any of this, and in the past - you have = assured us that you do not have such a stake in BLP either. I hope that = is still the case, and that you will be able to somehow appreciate the = "big picture".... unless, of course, you know something that we do not = know. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C59DA1.44691500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Richard,
 
The new CEO of EDS is Mike Jordan not = Vernon=20 Jordan, and those two have very polarized political connections. I = think=20 the "United Negro College Fund" thing threw you off. This one is white = and a big=20 Republican. In fact he made the "Top10" list of CEO contributors (100%=20 Republican).
http://tinyurl.com/bsbu2 =
.
You won't read about that, or any other = negatives,=20 in the glowing company PR release mentioned by Mike = Carrell:
http://www.eds.com/news/mediaclippings/downloads/inside_new_eds.= pdf
 
Jordan, as I said is probably an = honorable man, and=20 very well connected in the Republican Party, in a time when EDS needed = political=20 connections. His business acumen is in doubt however, as he is taking = the blame=20 for gigantic multi-hundred-million dollar losses in a contract with = the=20 Marine Corps which he insisted on winning.
 
Last point - and then I'm done with = what is turning=20 into a short-sighted thread.

Mike, your stance - in the = larger=20 context of finding a way out of  the fossil fuel dilemma - is = appearing=20 short-sighted and almost selfish - but in  fairness let me say that = it is=20 based on your unflinching commitment to a company which  may or may = not=20 have something of value. Yet you want that company alone to be the=20 beneficiary of every indulgence and leniency in a field fraught = with=20 con-artists, some very sophisticated - and when others honestly feel = that BLP=20 has demonstrated nothing of value to the general public. Yet you = feel that=20 all nay-sayers have something personal against BLP. I do not look at = this as=20 personal in any way, and have said many times that BLP probably will = have a=20 viable technology some day - but they have not even come close to=20 demonstrating it in public.
 
I think we should hereafter, in regards = to BLP's=20 credibility, institute the "Rothwell Test." Jed is very open-minded = about=20 LENR and understands the broader-field very well, but has not yet been = convinced=20 of BLP's work. When he is finally convinced that BLP has demonstrated = something=20 of commercial usefulness, then we can say for our purposes, it has = reached a=20 certain credibility plateau - and that others should get on the = bandwagon and=20 give it the same kind of indulgence and trust which Mike Carrell now = gives=20 it.

Otherwise, the result of that short-sightedness could be very=20 devastating to other fledgling companies and good ideas, in need of = support=20 from a limited number of "angels" --- in fact to the whole field of = LENR.=20 These are companies and researchers who are on the verge of being able=20 to actually demonstrate something useful with tens of thousands of = dollars=20 - which BLP has not been able to do so far with 10s of millions.
 
Why should we care - simple - there is only so much total = R&D=20 capital available for all of alternative energy. There are few investors = and=20 lots of needs. If a slick promoter comes around and gets most of that=20 discretionary "angel" money then many others will suffer.

> You go on to say the individuals may be honorable men --=20 if
> so, why the fuss? This then appears as an opportunity to vent =
> your personal frustrations.

Absolutely NO personal=20 frustrations are involved on my end. I am concerned about the = future of the=20 whole field of alternative energy, while you seem to only focus on a = single=20 company. Many observers who have no axe to grind, do NOT feel that BLP = is up to=20 the task. Maybe you have seen something that we have not - but so far,=20 everything coming from BLP is a huge disappointment, considering the = time and=20 the amount of money they have already burned through.

If BLP = should push=20 through a really big IPO - based on what little they have shown in = public,=20 knowing that they cannot produce a product quickly - and they have=20 consistently shown over the last 14 years that they cannot even bring an = OU=20 prototype device to public scrutiny - then yes...  that would be a = huge=20 tragedy for the whole field, including and especially LENR, all of = cold=20 fusion, ZPE conversion, MAHG, Ultraconductors, magnetics and everything=20 else.

I hope now you can see = where I am=20 coming from - it is not personal - why should it be?
 
I have no monetary stake in any of = this, and in the=20 past - you have assured us that you do not have such a stake in BLP=20 either.  I hope that is still = the case, and=20 that you will be able to somehow appreciate the "big picture".... = unless, of=20 course, you know something that we do not know.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C59DA1.44691500-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 12:44:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AJi95O024188; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:44:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AJi6ba024146; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:44:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:44:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:43:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42fa58f0.1893.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.251 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5VQdyB.A.D5F.Ekl-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >I found this quite amusing and thought Vorts might enjoy: >> >> > Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:01:49 -0700 >> > From: Jack Sarfatti >> > >> > Are UFOs real? Yes! Are they a national and planetary >> > military WMD threat? Yes! Do we care what CISCOPS et-al >> > think? No! Do they determine USG policy on such things? >> > No! Are we moving forward: >> > Damn the torpedos full warp ahead? Yes!" >> > >> Wow, this sounds like something on C to C AM! I like >> Sarfati's spirit, and couldn't resist responding to it. > > Steven V Johnson, did you notice this? > communications with Sarfati I got quite an earful in my attempt to get removed. "Go f__k yourself" was one of his responses. > I recall that post, how uncivil of him! >The tragedy, as I perceive it, is that Sarfati probably IS a genius. Geniuses are often the biggest screwballs, and apparently Dr. Jack is an example of that. What I found interesting was his ascertion that he has reviewed data available to the intelligence community and found that UFO's are real. Does anyone know what CISCOPS stands for? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 12:59:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AJwnsg029748; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:59:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AJwmm6029738; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:58:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:58:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810154342.044f8310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:58:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high In-Reply-To: <001d01c59ddb$f1466bd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> <5ba201c59d51$ff5ddb20$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <002c01c59d57$b48e56f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6b1701c59dc7$ae7f7ad0$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001d01c59ddb$f1466bd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >I think we should hereafter, in regards to BLP's credibility, institute >the "Rothwell Test." Jed is very open-minded about LENR and understands >the broader-field very well, but has not yet been convinced of BLP's work. That is very flattering, but it is unfair to BLP. I have not examined their work seriously since 1992, when I found it pretty impressive. I am not qualified to judge their recent claims about physics. If they begin to make energy generating machinery again perhaps I will be able to evaluate them. My only complaints about BLP have been with regard to their business strategy. That is a matter of opinion. You cannot objectively measure the value of a business strategy until after it is executed in the company has either prospered or gone bankrupt. (Of course this is also partly a matter of luck; a good strategy may fail in bad times. And strategy alone may not decide the issue. If BLP really has what they claim, even a bad strategy could bring in billions of dollars, whereas a good strategy would earn hundreds of billions.) I feel that I probably would be qualified to judge the technical claims being made by iESi. At least I could write an informative and unbiased description of their work. However, they demand a nondisclosure agreement, and I will not sign one, so I cannot visit them. Several qualified people have visited there and they seem enthusiastic. That is a good sign. But we cannot go any firm conclusions until after we see detailed information and the claims have been independently replicated. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 13:45:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AKiTBY014632; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:44:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AKiRBk014617; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:44:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:44:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:43:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050810204359.SOBS9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: temalloy metro.lakes.com > Does anyone know what > CISCOPS stands for? He misspelled it: http://www.csicop.org/ the bastion of human secularism. You'll love 'em. And you'll love their mag, Septical Inquirer: http://www.csicop.org/si/ This month they're picking on my favorite TIC theory, Hollow Moons! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 13:53:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AKqxuc018546; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:53:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AKqvVn018513; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:52:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:52:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vir2$1a7ojtp mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,97,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1417433017:sNHT18504296" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:52:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2kO7pC.A.JhE.pkm-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: temalloy ... > Does anyone know what CISCOPS stands for? I suspect Mr. Sarfati was being a tad flippant in his use of the acronym "CISCOP", often pronounced phonetically as "Si-Cops" See: http://www.csicop.org/resources/ CISCOP stands for: "Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal" I suspect most scientists, physicists, and astronomers that are firmly entrenched in the current paradigms of traditional objectified western thought tend to approve of CISCOP's purpose in life. Others, particularly those investigating paranormal activity, ESP, UFOs, the so-called "fringe" sciences tend to hate the organization. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 15:05:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AM50ZZ020178; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:05:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AM4wAQ020151; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:04:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:04:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810170530.044ff770 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:04:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost In-Reply-To: <48vir2$1a7ojtp mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <48vir2$1a7ojtp mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Others, particularly those investigating paranormal activity, ESP, UFOs, >the so-called "fringe" sciences tend to hate the organization. CISCOP has also attacked cold fusion on several occasions. I would describe them as pathological skeptics. See: http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/CSICOPoverview.htm Their main targets appear to be studies of the paranormal, UFOs and the like. I myself have no interest in these fields, and I doubt there is anything to the claims. However, since I have not examined such claims carefully I would never pass judgment on them or attack them. A person must be careful not to express strong opinions (positive or negative) about a subject he has not studied carefully, and he must be even more parsimonious with contempt, derision or dismissal. Such strong revulsion should be reserved for the small number of bad ideas that actively harm society. UFOlogy is, at worst, harmless whimsy. Kneejerk skeptics such as CISCOP should learn a lesson from Hippocrates: First do no harm. By the way, it has been reported here that "India Daily matter of factly discusses their military contacts with an ET UFO base located remotely in the Himalayas! You read the newspaper and it reports cricket scores, stock quotes . . ." Believe me, this proves absolutely nothing. Newspapers everywhere are full of bunk and cannot be trusted. Look at what they write about cold fusion. Or try this test. Pick any subject you know a great deal about, or some controversial public figure. (Do not select a very famous person whose life has been documented in detail, such as FDR, but rather a lesser-known figure such as Alfred Kinsey.) Now use Google or better yet a public library to look up old newspaper articles about the subject. You will find they are a fun-house mirror -- a mixture of distortion, error, and made-up nonsense. American mainstream newspapers used to be even more distorted and irresponsible than they are today. In the 1930s movie newsreel makers and Life magazine writers would invent stories out of whole cloth and stage events. I recall one zany example broadcast on TV a few years ago. It was during an interview with the newsreel maker, an affable guy and his 80s. The newsreel showed an old lady in Texas wearing a blindfolded, shooting off a pistol. The cutaway shot showed bottles being blasted off a fence. The newsreel voiceover said "she is such a crack shot, she never misses even while blindfolded!!!" Then the scene cut to the present, back to the interview with the newsreel guy, who is laughing and saying: "Ah, that was fun . . . We used to stage stuff like that during slow weeks." It never occurred to him that the audience would take it seriously. This was the 1930s version of "The Daily Show," or a grocery store tabloid. These standards still prevail in Third World countries, and to a lesser extent in Japan. Even NHK documentaries have been revealed as "yarase" (staged fake news). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 15:35:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AMZ83J001228; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:35:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AMZ7Jb001211; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:35:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:35:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810181043.04510270 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:34:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810170530.044ff770 pop.mindspring.com> References: <48vir2$1a7ojtp mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050810170530.044ff770 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7AMYokk001076 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >Such strong revulsion should be reserved for the small number of bad ideas >that actively harm society. UFOlogy is, at worst, harmless whimsy. CISCOP emphatically disagrees, by the way. They say: "It's [belief in the paranormal] a very dangerous phenomenon, dangerous to science, dangerous to the basic fabric of our society. . . . We feel it is the duty of the scientific community to show that these beliefs are utterly screwball." I do not understand why they feel so strongly. In the long run, most ideas are revealed to be utterly screwball, yet most do little harm. Even well-educated, scientific people believe in the long list of screwball ideas, such as low-carb diets or the inherent fairness of the peer review system. Moderation is the key. A low-carb diet is okay as long as you don't overdo it. Three other examples: Faith healing is harmful if you use it exclusively in place of modern medicine to treat a sick child. But you cause no harm when you practice faith healing plus modern medicine. A lonely widow holds a séance and becomes convinced she is communicating her dead husband. It is creepy, but I suppose it comforts her. As long as the shyster holding the séance does not overcharge her, I cannot see why it is any worse than psychotherapy or prayer. I would not think of discouraging her or telling her she is being deceived. Lottery tickets are tax on stupid and poor people, but buying five dollars per week is a harmless vice. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 16:05:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7AN5C96012675; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:05:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7AN56JQ012530; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:05:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:05:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810184455.044ffa60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:04:33 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050810181043.04510270 pop.mindspring.com> References: <48vir2$1a7ojtp mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050810170530.044ff770 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050810181043.04510270 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One final note. I wrote: >Faith healing is harmful if you use it exclusively in place of modern >medicine to treat a sick child. But you cause no harm when you practice >faith healing plus modern medicine. I have often railed against creationism and its latest incarnation ID ("creationism in a cheap tuxedo.") CISCOP probably says that creationism is a "very dangerous phenomenon, dangerous to science, dangerous to the basic fabric of our society." I agree 100%!!! But that is NOT because creationism is a particularly screwy idea. It is ONLY because fanatics & kooks want to teach it in the public schools in place of science. When fanatics & kooks in the privacy of their own homes or churches believe in faith healing, seances, creationism, perpetual motion machines, or what-have-you, that causes no harm. It is none of my business, and I would not think of condemning it. This is a free country, and people have the right to believe whatever nonsense pops into their heads. They can send their kids to private schools that teach nonsense. Children are resilient and they usually rebel against their parents. That is is the source of most progress in civilization. But children would have a harder time rejecting nonsense that is endorsed by the government, taught in all schools at the taxpayer's expense, and promoted by the President. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 16:41:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7ANelQo005252; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:41:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7ANehDB005209; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:40:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:40:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <49jvrm$1f55jq mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:40:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Jed sez: > > orionworks sez: > > >Others, particularly those investigating paranormal > > activity, ESP, UFOs, the so-called "fringe" sciences > > tend to hate the organization. > > CISCOP has also attacked cold fusion on several occasions. > I would describe them as pathological skeptics. My Muse of Metaphorical Mastication can't resist! I speak in terms of moralistic fables here: In NewAge Speak it's as if a group of Religious Fundamental fanatics were at one time guilty of relentlessly persecuting those of the atheist belief or perhaps other religious orders. They persecuted them for the folly of their ideology. Eventually they all died, and while reviewing their lives on the other side they came to realize the folly of their OWN ideology. So, they reincarnate firmly determined THIS TIME around to do a better job of it. Unfortunately, many are still deeply enthralled with the lessons of fanaticism, ALL kinds of fanaticism. They continue to be drawn to experience the power, to deeply feel the black and white conviction of certainty that fanaticism can provide. This causes those seekers to gravitate to a very different corner of the ideological spectrum. They may end up fanatically persecuting religious fundamental fanatics for, of course, the folly of their ideology. But then they die again and once again realize the folly of their ideology. All right... That didn't work either. Maybe we should believe in the mysteries of Aliens and UFOs, or perhaps NOT believe in them. What about Astrology, or Parapsychology... Maybe SCIENCE! What about... For many, the cycle tends to go on for a while. I wager few have negotiated their way through this cycle of human experience un-scathed. If I look hard enough I bet I could find a few skeletons in my own closet. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 10 18:26:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7B1PZfT023954; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:25:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7B1PXh1023936; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:25:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:25:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <1b53700d-aa01-4c5a-87b3-a5f2cde0e0e0> Message-ID: <6b8a01c59e13$818d1040$0857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004a01c59d27$a4065150$6401a8c0 NuDell> <5ba201c59d51$ff5ddb20$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <002c01c59d57$b48e56f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6b1701c59dc7$ae7f7ad0$0857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001d01c59ddb$f1466bd0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:18:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Support for Hy from on-high Richard, The new CEO of EDS is Mike Jordan not Vernon Jordan, and those two have very polarized political connections. I think the "United Negro College Fund" thing threw you off. This one is white and a big Republican. In fact he made the "Top10" list of CEO contributors (100% Republican). http://tinyurl.com/bsbu2 . You won't read about that, or any other negatives, in the glowing company PR release mentioned by Mike Carrell: http://www.eds.com/news/mediaclippings/downloads/inside_new_eds.pdf Jordan, as I said is probably an honorable man, and very well connected in the Republican Party, in a time when EDS needed political connections. His business acumen is in doubt however, as he is taking the blame for gigantic multi-hundred-million dollar losses in a contract with the Marine Corps which he insisted on winning. Last point - and then I'm done with what is turning into a short-sighted thread. Mike, your stance - in the larger context of finding a way out of the fossil fuel dilemma - is appearing short-sighted and almost selfish - but in fairness let me say that it is based on your unflinching commitment to a company which may or may not have something of value. Yet you want that company alone to be the beneficiary of every indulgence and leniency in a field fraught with con-artists, some very sophisticated - and when others honestly feel that BLP has demonstrated nothing of value to the general public. Yet you feel that all nay-sayers have something personal against BLP. I do not look at this as personal in any way, and have said many times that BLP probably will have a viable technology some day - but they have not even come close to demonstrating it in public. MC: Jones, I make no apology for defending BLP in points of fact. I have no idea at all that nay-sayers have anythin personal against BLP. This is your perception, not mine. Nor do I have the idea that criticism of BLP must automatically be more valid than support, which some critics seem to feel. I do take posted reports at face value unless some specific problem has been detected, as happened in the past [and been corrected]. Otherwise, one may feel that it is all an elaborate charade, which I find implausible. It is true that BLP has made no public demonstrations, but as you should be aware, such demonstrations may be elaborate hoaxes and prove nothing. They invite attack and distract from the core purpose of understanding the phenomena. I think we should hereafter, in regards to BLP's credibility, institute the "Rothwell Test." Jed is very open-minded about LENR and understands the broader-field very well, but has not yet been convinced of BLP's work. When he is finally convinced that BLP has demonstrated something of commercial usefulness, then we can say for our purposes, it has reached a certain credibility plateau - and that others should get on the bandwagon and give it the same kind of indulgence and trust which Mike Carrell now gives it. MC: Jones, if you read me carefully, I agree that **only** productionof multiple functioning power systems can validate Mills' work, and even such does not in itself validate CQM. I give indulgence and trust to the process, as I have seen a number of R&D programs. I do not decided that all positive results are the result of error because some mathematical aspect of the orbitsphere is wrong in someone's opinion. I have not heard a single critique of the waterbath calorimetry that points to a error significant in relationship to the energy signal produced. Otherwise, the result of that short-sightedness could be very devastating to other fledgling companies and good ideas, in need of support from a limited number of "angels" --- in fact to the whole field of LENR. These are companies and researchers who are on the verge of being able to actually demonstrate something useful with tens of thousands of dollars - which BLP has not been able to do so far with 10s of millions. MC: You apply different criteria, the comparisons are skewed. BLP is financed by "qualified investors" who can afford to lose their entire investment. This has no relationship to the funding of LENR or ZPE projects. At the scale involved, there is more than enough money to go around. You are complaining that your pet projects have not attracted the capital that Mills has, and Jed disapproves of the business model as well. The LENR field is fragmented, and many have been on the "verge" for years. Mills can reproduce his effects, the LENR field has trouble on this point. I sense that capital is moving toward various investigators and I applaud all of this. It is not a zero-sum game. Why should we care - simple - there is only so much total R&D capital available for all of alternative energy. There are few investors and lots of needs. If a slick promoter comes around and gets most of that discretionary "angel" money then many others will suffer. MC: You are fixating on the term "angel investor" applied to Jordan. There are many others. You are implying that Mills is a "slick promoter" sucking up all the investment money that could be applied to other projects, and my support is somehow selfish. You forget that in past years I was a staunch defender of CF experiments, but perhaps you were not around then. > You go on to say the individuals may be honorable men -- if > so, why the fuss? This then appears as an opportunity to vent > your personal frustrations. Absolutely NO personal frustrations are involved on my end. I am concerned about the future of the whole field of alternative energy, while you seem to only focus on a single company. Many observers who have no axe to grind, do NOT feel that BLP is up to the task. Maybe you have seen something that we have not - but so far, everything coming from BLP is a huge disappointment, considering the time and the amount of money they have already burned through. MC: Very much in the eye of the beholder. I watched RCA blow far more money on consumer projects. Given the nature of the task, I think that BLP's investment has been very prudently spent. If BLP should push through a really big IPO - based on what little they have shown in public, knowing that they cannot produce a product quickly - and they have consistently shown over the last 14 years that they cannot even bring an OU prototype device to public scrutiny - then yes... that would be a huge tragedy for the whole field, including and especially LENR, all of cold fusion, ZPE conversion, MAHG, Ultraconductors, magnetics and everything else. MC: You are convinced that BLP's claims are empty. I am not. If you actually read what BLP is saying, instead of making assumptions, you would find that their position is that of a license laboratory and any IPO will be that of a joint venture between company X and BLP, with X putting up 80% equity in cash and other resources and BLP taking 20% for technical support. I'm sure you can conceive that this will not happen without very extended due diligence in which the CEO and staff of the partner are certain of the validity of BLP's technology and ability to steer them to commercialization. The other initatives you mention can have their place as well when devices are available for demonstration. I hope now you can see where I am coming from - it is not personal - why should it be? MC: Jones, I read you, and I hope you read me better. I wish the LENR/CMNS field were further along, I have many friends there and it deserves its polace in the sun. Mills has played his cards very carefully so as not to be drawn into the controversies surrounding LENR/CMNS. I have no monetary stake in any of this, and in the past - you have assured us that you do not have such a stake in BLP either. I hope that is still the case, and that you will be able to somehow appreciate the "big picture".... unless, of course, you know something that we do not know. MC: I do appreciate the 'big picture'. I do have a thread who can mesure the internal mood of BLP, which is very upbeat at the moment, but that person is not told everything either. There have been too many covert attacks on BLP's position, as there have been on LENR/CMNS. Stay tuned, it is going to be interesting. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 00:20:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7B7KGcZ021204; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:20:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7B7KEaj021193; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:20:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:20:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy clear.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:19:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarfati Crosspost X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42fafc1b.27d2.0 clear.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.70 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9vWhND.A.BLF.twv-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> From: temalloy metro.lakes.com > >> Does anyone know what >> CISCOPS stands for? >http://www.csicop.org/ > >the bastion of human secularism. You'll love 'em. And you'll love their mag, Septical Inquirer: I just heard Michael Scherner the editor of SI being interviewed, I changed the station. He was in the Twincities one spring, at a creation conference. He was a Christian for a while, there are no bigger skeptics. I'm sure that Parksie is a regular reader, and probably contributes too. >This month they're picking on my favorite TIC theory, Hollow Moons! I'm sure you've heard Parksie crow about the scientific studies showing that herbal and energy medicine are inefective. IMHO, that just goes to show you that you can prove anything that you want to. Especially if the scientific establishment is paying you to do it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 02:54:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7B9sQNN019573; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:54:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7B9sP4F019565; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:54:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:54:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=MejUnhhuAnMMRcDSJT3SPliF3X0RVMXubvE4SgqJ0nuy1e28frTb4hn02l26XKge; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005841185412240 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Brown's Gas" Bladeless Turbine & Rocket Propellent? Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:54:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404d35266eb245836fe6b3098f37bce469350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.56 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A Solar Photovoltaic power supply to provide the ~ 2.7 Kw-Hr/Lb electrolysis of water (~10.0 Megajoules/lb) to get the H, OH, O & H2O vapor mix to feed to a rocket nozzle where it can exothermally recombine and exit the nozzle at several kilometers/second? Arc Jet Boost in the nozzle? Would this give a plus for the IAS "Bladeless Turbine"? http://iaus.com/turbine.htm There should be enough water on Mars for speeding up the return of a Manned Mission. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A Solar Photovoltaic power supply to provide the ~ 2.7 Kw-Hr/Lb
electrolysis of water (~10.0 Megajoules/lb) to get the H, OH, O & H2O vapor mix to feed
to a rocket nozzle where it can exothermally recombine and exit
the nozzle at several kilometers/second? Arc Jet Boost in the nozzle?
 
Would this give a plus for the IAS "Bladeless Turbine"?
 
http://iaus.com/turbine.htm
 
There should be enough water on Mars for speeding up the return
of a Manned Mission.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 04:05:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BB5GSm016907; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 04:05:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BB5EJE016888; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 04:05:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 04:05:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Penrose on Brains, Cranks, ESP, limits of logical enquiry ETC Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:04:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7BB4tWF016767 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris and others, Reading your post and others and scanning several others on different topics. Yes. Forgot a few others: Bertrand Russell Kurt Gödel You can't get a first order logic system to prove itself. That crucial act of creativity comes from, where? (as he sits listening to Beethoven "to the distant beloved", "An die ferne Geliebte" on BBC R3). Who knows from where it comes? The truth can be maddening and lead to isolation and scorn in any field of activity; you might be in the Whitehouse or Number 10 and decide to put your career on the line for a point of principle for instance. However if you follow some ground rules: Presentation - Be familiar with the state of the art and the knowledge canon and say where you wish to depart. Try to produce things in the conventional manner without ranting or being seen as way off base and through the conventional channels. This is not easy. Personal - Self discipline (not easy), health and wealth must be taken care of and inter-personal relationships. Have a sense of humour and lots of patience. Resourcefulness - Thinking ways around a problem be it actual or man-made (administration, bureaucracies etc.) Cranks much like misfits, psychos and terrorists are people not given due process and become more isolated and radical. Are they bad or did society make them that way - one reaps what one sows? Many times they are wrong and then the strongest measures should be taken to stop their anti-social activities. However if they choose the path of light they can make a difference, enlighten and bring people together. I have great 'faith' in institutions and society; the alternatives are negative anarchy, theocracies, and dictatorships. Both the States and the Brits have had that tested recently (multi-culturalism for instance) and what people think of ethnic minorities and what ethnic minorities think of society. Persuade them that institutions can evolve become fair, that they can be part of society, assimilate and seek to change by evolution rather than revolution. It is a two-way process and in this example, 2nd and 3rd world people should learn what is wrong with their cultures and adopt a system of democracy, respect for human rights and respect for property. Maybe the West can learn different systems of thought which could take them beyond a log jam in Objective thought - to be able to mediate and contemplate and be one with the surrounds rather than just consume it. It might sound corny but if you've ever done something that strikes deep within one's consciousness, some agenda seems to be set for one, compelling one to do it. One feels like a servant carrying out instructions. I don't think consciousness is an entirely personal, human thing acting at one point in time. There seems to be an element of prescience (heh, pre-science) about it. Even the most conservative scientists talk about solutions being beautiful, symmetric, close to a concept of God. Sorry but I've can't keep this up unless something really grabs my attention and compels me to write. An essay with my thoughts on ID shall be put on the website. I might then put up some vetted blog of peoples links to others who have said similar. It's an essay not a paper. I must also despite the formal university workload attend to half completed papers which are not part of my actual university requirement. At least it is a bit quieter this time of year. Cheers to Bill Beaty who mentioned similar about the idea of cosmic coincidence and paths of light and dark a few weeks ago. P.S. I don't claim to know everything and am hopefully humble enough to be corrected. Also the types of problems I'm good at, the style I use, doesn't apply to everything. I'd be like a fish out of water in other areas. Regards, Remi. ________________________________________ From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Zell, Chris Sent: 10 August 2005 14:24 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Penrose on Brains I have hoped for something like this - as sort of 'brickwall' that science runs into, to force them to look at ESP as the product of linkage with a Universal Mind. I think it was Schrodinger who conceived of consciousness as a single thing, spread out across the cosmos.   The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps of understanding is simply a matter of degree.  Those who denigrate psychic phenomena probably have no problem with the sterotype of a light bulb appearing above their heads, as new concepts simply pop into their minds. ________________________________________ From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:04 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: Penrose on Brains Penrose gets to the heart of the problem. It all stems back to Charles Babbage, David Hilbert, Alan Turin, John Neumann and the idea that a computer could be built to churn away at the problem space. Penrose has realised that some problems just cannot be contemplated by a clanking algorithmic computer - eg. things like inductive solutions. You need a leap of 'faith' to see the solution. He suggests quantum computers might have this ability. He suggests some nano-sized body in brain cells that may be capable of this, forgotten what they are called. There may even be other brain types capable of comprehending stuff that the average human cannot - spirituality, musical ability and so on. I think we need to remind ourselves, probably, just how basic we are. Won't it be good when we find out that we are not the best technology on the block. I know you people hate me for not sticking around and getting into the fray. 'Fraid I've got to love you and leave you. Mmwaah, big kiss XXX missing you already. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 05:22:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BCLYZx022427; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:21:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BCLXT3022420; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:21:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:21:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ssdQnmVH5Zho6nTlHyq3G7jXl6Y/bu2K8JyN05g64hNzl20tzGOMNC5KZ0+csS8K; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005841111215370 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: "Brown's Gas" Bladeless Turbine & Rocket Propellent? Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:21:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404ea357f03c69f303fb48a01ad6032ddc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.111 Resent-Message-ID: <2NNOVD.A.QeF.NL0-CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII FWIW, Calculations show that this approach is twice as efficient as a Zenon propellent "Ion Space Drive" (~ 5 amps 600 volts) and 68% efficiency as a Bladeless Microturbine (4 inch dia rotor 96,000 RPM). http://iaus.com/turbine.htm Microturbines (essentially Turbochargers used on engines) are a big item for distributed power generation these days. Some go as high as 120,000 RPM. > > A Solar Photovoltaic power supply to provide the ~ 2.7 Kw-Hr/Lb > electrolysis of water (~10.0 Megajoules/lb) to get the H, OH, O & H2O vapor mix to feed > to a rocket nozzle where it can exothermally recombine and exit > the nozzle at several kilometers/second? Arc Jet Boost in the nozzle? > > Would this give a plus for the IAS "Bladeless Turbine"? > > http://iaus.com/turbine.htm > > There should be enough water on Mars for speeding up the return > of a Manned Mission. > Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
FWIW, Calculations show that this approach is twice as efficient as
a Zenon propellent "Ion Space Drive" (~ 5 amps 600 volts) and
68% efficiency as a Bladeless Microturbine  (4 inch dia rotor 96,000 RPM).
 
 
Microturbines (essentially Turbochargers used on engines) are a big item
for distributed power generation these days. Some go as high as 120,000 RPM.
>
> A Solar Photovoltaic power supply to provide the ~ 2.7 Kw-Hr/Lb
> electrolysis of water (~10.0 Megajoules/lb) to get the H, OH, O & H2O vapor mix to feed
> to a rocket nozzle where it can exothermally recombine and exit
> the nozzle at several kilometers/second? Arc Jet Boost in the nozzle?
> 
> Would this give a plus for the IAS "Bladeless Turbine"?
>
>   http://iaus.com/turbine.htm
> 
> There should be enough water on Mars for speeding up the return
> of a Manned Mission.
>
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 09:45:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BGiUkF031974; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:44:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BGiRow031942; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:44:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:44:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ba01c59e93$dfe6c070$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Either-Or Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:43:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The most common error found in analyzing energy anomalies, especially those relating to LENR, might very well be the "Either-Or Fallacy." Morris Engel has written a book called "With Good Reason: An Introduction to Informal Fallacies" which considers the Either/Or Fallacy, a.k.a. the Black-or-White Fallacy, or Bifurcation, or the False Dilemma. You can read up on the many logical errors, more than a few of which will be found in almost every vortex post (including many posts from yours truly) at: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html#Analysis Sometimes this error of logic is called the "Law of Excluded Middle." For instance, in looking at a particular overunity electrolysis cell, you might hear it said "either it's an LENR reaction or it's a hydrino reaction." Or in looking at hydrogen gas-phase cell where there OU is seen, it might be said that either it is a hydrino cell or a ZPE (Casimir) reaction. If an argument unnecessarily polarizes, or confuses two premises as being independent, then it may commit this fallacy. We should never exclude the real possibility - that even when there are two previously unconnected "modus operandi" - that they are themselves NOT mutually exclusive - but instead could be inter-related on a lower level - perhaps even catalytically linked. Take a electrolytic CF cell for instance, in which excess energy is found in rough proportion to the appearance of helium. The fallacy would say - "Ha.... we have helium and we have proportional excess-energy, therefore the energy must be coming from the fusion of deuterium" despite the lack of other necessary indicia....or if the cell had no deuterium, we might be inclined to say, "Ha, the cell has no deuterium so the excess energy is coming from hydrinos," despite the fact that no one has identified the 'real' source of energy there. Consequently, until one excludes the possibility that the hydrino (deuterino) is a predecessor state to deuterium fusion, or that ZPE is not the real force behind the hydrino, then the coincidental link to helium proportionality is a red herring - as is the assertion that the hydrino reaction could be OU without ZPE. In fact, the modus operandi of any such anomaly in CF could very easily involve a situation where the bulk of the excess energy comes from the deuterino but not fusion - but Catch-22, it doesn't not have to be a deuterino which is in a "one-way" shrinkage situation (as is normally inferred from Mills' CQM) . In either case, the resultant helium may be pretty much an "afterthought" in that it involves energy-depleted reactants, and is itself the not the ash but the QM "balance-sheet" for the previous OU which comes from ZPE.... You might be inclined to say that this argument is far-fetched and invoke Ockham, or that you do not like QM anyway and this is one of the reasons why. Fine. Until this argument is excluded by experiment, however, lets make it clear that nature does not always "want" to be simplified...AND....on closer evaluation, this argument may indeed end up being the simplest anyway. QM is often maligned because it is too "mystical" but that does not make it wrong. This explanation does suffers now from being hodge-podged together from a variety of sources, but that does not make it wrong - only experiment can do that. Instead of exothermic deuterium fusion, the deuterino may oscillate between a shrunken state and ground state, and is always "pumped" back up by ZPE until a zone (exciton) becomes depleted. This may go on for some time without any helium being formed. Perhaps once in every 6-7 million (or so) of these ZPE deuterino oscillations - the "shrinkage" on the downside, does not stop at n=2 followed by an oscillation but continues autocatalytically down to the fusion-ready state. Why? because the localized ZPE Casimir zone has become energy-depleted in the multiple of ~24 MeV and it therefore requires a balancing act for the "borrowed" energy. An alpha particle (sans gamma) will provide this balance. Proportionality is maintained. QM has masqueraded as fusion. There was a hydrino but it was an oscillating hydrino. The "real" energy source was always ZPE, not fusion - although a "new kind" of fusion occurred in which no high energy gamma was detected because the energy of this gamma had already been borrowed, in the QM sense. Confusing? Ockham-be-damned ? More later.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 12:48:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BJltli028559; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:48:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BJlrhV028522; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:47:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:47:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Emergence - the Miraculous Possibilities Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:47:34 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B7A1B5 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Emergence - the Miraculous Possibilities Thread-Index: AcWerYShrkO80IoXSPmdmpve7zwdug== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2005 19:47:35.0657 (UTC) FILETIME=[85856590:01C59EAD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7BJlasM028417 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I recently read a NY Times Book review concerning a new book called "A Different Universe - Reinventing Physics From the Bottom Up" I was stunned to discover a scientist who was finally speaking openly about what I've long suspected about the world. Basically, modern science may rest on the unproven assumption that all properties can be derived from a billiard ball view of atoms. The author is attacking the overuse of reductionism and discusses emergent properties of experiments that cannot be derived from the simple set of properties at hand. I have often felt that few scientists are willing to consider that the UNIVERSE IS ULTIMATELY ARBITRARY. Indeed, the only ones I know of are Stenger ( famous skeptic) and Victor Mansfield ( astrophysist who writes new age books). I just stumbled across a powerful modality for treating cancer in vivo - by using electrical fields in an unexpected range (100 - 300khz) (Cancer Research 64 3288-3295 May 1 2004) Who knows what we might find by reducing our sense of reductionism! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 13:35:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BKYvCp015656; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:35:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BKYslU015624; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:34:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:34:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:34:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050811203429.CMLC9925.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looks like DaimlerChrysler might be the first on the market: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/jul05/0705ncar.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 14:00:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BKxTU6026853; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:59:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BKxRqO026839; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:59:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:59:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002201c59eb7$82050ce0$33027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Penrose on Brains Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:59:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C59E8D.98962040"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C59E8D.98962040 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C59E8D.98962040" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C59E8D.98962040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankStephen A. Lawrence wrote.. >RC Macaulay wrote: > Chris Zell wrote.. > =20 > The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps of understanding is=20 > simply a matter of degree. Those who denigrate psychic phenomena > probably have no problem with the sterotype of a light bulb appearing=20 > above their heads, as new concepts simply pop into their minds. > > Chris, thats a stretch. I can accept the intuitative rather than the=20 > physic. As I read the various posts on this and IT vs. Darwin etc. I=20 > think about one subject often ignored. > > TIME > > If we presume time to have a beginning, we place ourselves in a box.=20 > If we attempt to conceive time as " eternal" with no ending we in turn = > are faced with the question.. what if time had NO start.. it is=20 > eternal.. no beginning. Tryng to grasp a concept of time eternal is=20 > impossible to gather into one's focus. It would mean that... > > No matter how much time elapses from this moment on into eternity..=20 > that measure of time would NEVER equal the amount of time that has=20 > passed. This is one on paradoxes facing the true scientist. The=20 > paradox is that it is the one scientific fact that is impossible to=20 > grasp in its significance. > But according to current theory, time started with the big bang, some=20 tens of billions of years ago. Before that it's just speculation;=20 nothing is defined. The big bang began with a singularity, and at that=20 point the space and time coordinates simply terminate. The time=20 coordinate does not extend back past that point. So, if you want to remain within the bounds of current scientific=20 theory, there is no "eternity" looking back. There was a beginning. > A proper view of time will open understanding to the depth of the task = > facing CF research. > > Richard Stephen, I was suggesting we may be stuck in our own matrix of " current = scientific theory" by clinging to the " big bang" which is a theory = becoming increasing more difficult to which to attach logic to it's = framework. Granted , a eternal existance may exceed the boundaries of = one's imagination, however we are " stuck" with the word " time" as a = measureable function just as we are of physical dimensional measurement. = My discussions with many university undergraduates "bare" me out that = there is revolution on campus to take the shroud of secrecy off the = science classes and debate the merits thereof. My point is that CF research is being hampered and sidetracked by " we = vs them". Pure science is NOT politically correct and never has been, = regardless of the number of thinkers burned at the stake in the name of = religion. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C59E8D.98962040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote..

>RC Macaulay wrote:

> Chris Zell wrote..
>  =
>=20 The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps of understanding is =
>=20 simply a matter of degree.  Those who denigrate psychic = phenomena
>=20 probably have no problem with the sterotype of a light bulb appearing =
>=20 above their heads, as new concepts simply pop into their = minds.
>
>=20 Chris, thats a stretch. I can accept the intuitative rather than the =
>=20 physic. As I read the various posts on this and IT vs. Darwin etc. I =
>=20 think about one subject often ignored.
>
> = TIME
>
> If=20 we presume time to have a beginning, we place ourselves in a box. =
> If we=20 attempt to conceive time as " eternal" with no ending we in turn =
> are=20 faced with the question.. what if time had NO start.. it is
> = eternal..=20 no beginning. Tryng to grasp a concept of time eternal is
> = impossible to=20 gather into one's focus. It would mean that...
>
> No matter = how=20 much time elapses from this moment on into eternity..
> that = measure of=20 time would NEVER equal the amount of time that has
> passed. This = is one=20 on paradoxes facing the true scientist. The
> paradox is that it = is the=20 one scientific fact that is impossible to
> grasp in its=20 significance.
>
But according to current theory, time started = with the=20 big bang, some
tens of billions of years ago.  Before that it's = just=20 speculation;
nothing is defined.  The big bang began with a=20 singularity, and at that
point the space and time coordinates simply = terminate.   The time
coordinate does not extend back past = that=20 point.

So, if you want to remain within the bounds of current = scientific=20
theory, there is no "eternity" looking back.  There was a=20 beginning.

> A proper view of time will open understanding to = the=20 depth of the task
> facing CF research.
>
> = Richard

Stephen, I was suggesting we may be stuck in our own matrix of " = current=20 scientific theory" by clinging to the " big bang" which is a theory = becoming=20 increasing more difficult to which to attach logic to it's = framework.=20 Granted , a eternal existance may exceed the boundaries of one's=20 imagination, however we are " stuck" with the word " time" as a = measureable=20 function just as we are of physical dimensional measurement. My = discussions with=20 many university undergraduates "bare" me out that there is revolution on = campus=20 to take the shroud of secrecy off the science classes and debate the = merits=20 thereof.

My point is that CF research is being hampered and sidetracked by " = we vs=20 them". Pure science is NOT politically correct and never has been, = regardless of=20 the number of thinkers burned at the stake in the name of religion.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C59E8D.98962040-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C59E8D.98962040 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c59eb7$81648720$33027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C59E8D.98962040-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 14:20:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BHLI7I013430; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:21:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BHLFTD013396; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:21:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:21:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42FB88EC.7010907 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:20:44 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Penrose on Brains References: <001901c59dc6$81f241b0$8b027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <001901c59dc6$81f241b0$8b027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Chris Zell wrote.. > > The difference between ESP and intuitive leaps of understanding is > simply a matter of degree. Those who denigrate psychic phenomena > probably have no problem with the sterotype of a light bulb appearing > above their heads, as new concepts simply pop into their minds. > > Chris, thats a stretch. I can accept the intuitative rather than the > physic. As I read the various posts on this and IT vs. Darwin etc. I > think about one subject often ignored. > > TIME > > If we presume time to have a beginning, we place ourselves in a box. > If we attempt to conceive time as " eternal" with no ending we in turn > are faced with the question.. what if time had NO start.. it is > eternal.. no beginning. Tryng to grasp a concept of time eternal is > impossible to gather into one's focus. It would mean that... > > No matter how much time elapses from this moment on into eternity.. > that measure of time would NEVER equal the amount of time that has > passed. This is one on paradoxes facing the true scientist. The > paradox is that it is the one scientific fact that is impossible to > grasp in its significance. > But according to current theory, time started with the big bang, some tens of billions of years ago. Before that it's just speculation; nothing is defined. The big bang began with a singularity, and at that point the space and time coordinates simply terminate. The time coordinate does not extend back past that point. So, if you want to remain within the bounds of current scientific theory, there is no "eternity" looking back. There was a beginning. > A proper view of time will open understanding to the depth of the task > facing CF research. > > Richard > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 14:20:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BHWwZD019090; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:33:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BHWvXK019062; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:32:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:32:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=riJsGPRIvTiWqf3emy/fZiDS2yGN54JETThmNqp3IlAidqluRZkOYRnkSRmnDCYB; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058411163230690 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Brown's Gas" Bladeless Turbine & Rocket Propellent? Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:32:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c0da4b70a32996c82d14041ef8cb401b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.63 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW, the ~ 3.3 milligrams/second of Xenon expelled from the Deep Space I ion engine (~ 2.5 amps 600 volts) to get 1.0 newtons of thrust could be replaced using a 15 watt electric heating element embedded in an insulator-nozzle (BeO or other) with water feeding from a tank (~22 gallons to replace the 82 Kg of Xenon) pressurized with propane held in an external 20 lb capacity camper/barbeque bottle. Acceleration of the steam to the 30 kilometer/second Xenon ion velocity can be done with about 75 volts 2.5 amps accelerating potential ( ~ 200 watts). Feel free to challenge these calculations. :-) > > FWIW, Calculations show that this approach is twice as efficient as > a Zenon propellent "Ion Space Drive" (~ 5 amps 600 volts) and > 68% efficiency as a Bladeless Microturbine (4 inch dial rotor 96,000 RPM). > > http://iaus.com/turbine.htm > > Microturbines (essentially Turbochargers used on engines) are a big item > for distributed power generation these days. Some go as high as 120,000 RPM. > > > A Solar Photovoltaic power supply to provide the ~ 2.7 Kw-Hr/Lb > > electrolysis of water (~10.0 Megajoules/lb) to get the H, OH, O & H2O vapor mix to feed > > to a rocket nozzle where it can exothermally recombine and exit > > the nozzle at several kilometers/second? Arc Jet Boost in the nozzle? > > > Would this give a plus for the IAS "Bladeless Turbine"? > > > http://iaus.com/turbine.htm > > > > There should be enough water on Mars for speeding up the return > > of a Manned Mission. > Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
BTW, the ~ 3.3 milligrams/second of Xenon expelled from
the Deep Space I  ion engine (~ 2.5 amps 600 volts) to get 1.0 newtons
of thrust could be replaced using a 15 watt electric heating element embedded in
an insulator-nozzle (BeO or other) with water feeding from a tank (~22 gallons to replace the 82 Kg of Xenon) pressurized with propane held in an external 20 lb capacity camper/barbeque  bottle.
 
Acceleration of the steam to the 30 kilometer/second  Xenon ion velocity
can be done with about 75 volts  2.5 amps accelerating potential ( ~ 200 watts).
 
Feel free to challenge these calculations.   :-)
>
> FWIW, Calculations show that this approach is twice as efficient as
> a Zenon propellent "Ion Space Drive" (~ 5 amps 600 volts) and
> 68% efficiency as a Bladeless Microturbine  (4 inch dial rotor @ 96,000 RPM).
>
>   http://iaus.com/turbine.htm
>
> Microturbines (essentially Turbochargers used on engines) are a big item
> for distributed power generation these days. Some go as high as 120,000 RPM.
>
> > A Solar Photovoltaic power supply to provide the ~ 2.7 Kw-Hr/Lb
> > electrolysis of water (~10.0 Megajoules/lb) to get the H, OH, O & H2O vapor mix to feed
> > to a rocket nozzle where it can exothermally recombine and exit
> > the nozzle at several kilometers/second? Arc Jet Boost in the nozzle?
> 
> > Would this give a plus for the IAS "Bladeless Turbine"?
>
> >   http://iaus.com/turbine.htm
>
> 
> > There should be enough water on Mars for speeding up the return
> > of a Manned Mission.
>
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 14:27:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BLRAAN006624; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:27:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BLR82c006595; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:27:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:27:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050811170132.044e93a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:26:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Herbal medicine In-Reply-To: <42fafc1b.27d2.0 clear.lakes.com> References: <42fafc1b.27d2.0 clear.lakes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote: >I'm sure you've heard Parksie crow about the scientific studies showing >that herbal and energy medicine are inefective. IMHO, that just goes to >show you that you can prove anything that you want to. Especially if the >scientific establishment is paying you to do it. While I hate to agree with Park about anything, recent reports that echinacea is ineffective seem to be based on careful research. I think he also has a valid point that unregulated herbal remedies are a threat to public health. This is because everyone knows that some herbs are powerful drugs. Even Park would readily agree that poison ivy causes rashes, marijuana intoxicates, and the bark of the willow tree yields one of the most powerful and effective drugs ever discovered: asprin, used to treat fever, blood clotting and to prevent heart attacks. Unregulated herbal fen-phen caused widespread, serious damage to people's hearts, including 30 fatalities. As temalloy points out, conventional drugs also sometimes cause deleterious and unexpected side effects. That is why they must be carefully tested before use, and monitored continuously. I do not see why that same principle does not apply to herbal medicines. If they are effective (as some are, no doubt), they should be regulated. Many important drugs were originally discovered in herbs, trees and animals, and there are probably thousands more waiting to be discovered. This is yet another reason why we must preserve biodiversity and wilderness areas. Many drugs, including asprin, were originally discovered in nature but later synthesized. This gives better control over dosage and contents, and in some cases it helps preserves rare species. The endangered Pacific Yew was the original source of the cancer drug taxol. It took many trees to supply taxol, but fortunately the drug has now been synthesized. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 14:43:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BLgUS2013281; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:42:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BLgTHg013247; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:42:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:42:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:42:01 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B7A2F8 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Herbal medicine Thread-Index: AcWeu43MZEVlclX0TMqbOX5hoMv/zwAABkUg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2005 21:42:02.0709 (UTC) FILETIME=[829A6050:01C59EBD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7BLg59X013043 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a word, no, no, no, no, no Supplements can't be fairly regulated because the ENORMOUS bias of money distorts the whole subject. I can personally testify to my own research on treatments for MS - and how $$$$$$$$ was poured into trials that seemed determined to show some positive effect for expensive interferon type Drugs - while simple UNPROFITABLE treatments such as Swank's diet is ignored or ridiculed and linoleic acid effects utterly ignored. This sort of thing happens time and time again - as promising treatments for diseases are quietly shelved because drug companies know that they are unpatentable or unprofitable. Examples: High blood pressure? You can treat it with a simple $300 gadget called Resperate instead of drugs. Good luck finding out about it - my doctor never heard of it - despite solid clinical trials. I can show you dramatic results of simple seaweed extracts on cancer done in Japanese studies years ago - which you'll likely never hear about because the stuff will never make any money. I understand that Graviola was shelved for the same reason. Regulation is merely a pretext to get rid of drug company competition. Put a damn label on the side of the bottle and leave everyone else alone. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:27 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Herbal medicine temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote: >I'm sure you've heard Parksie crow about the scientific studies showing >that herbal and energy medicine are inefective. IMHO, that just goes to >show you that you can prove anything that you want to. Especially if >the scientific establishment is paying you to do it. While I hate to agree with Park about anything, recent reports that echinacea is ineffective seem to be based on careful research. I think he also has a valid point that unregulated herbal remedies are a threat to public health. This is because everyone knows that some herbs are powerful drugs. Even Park would readily agree that poison ivy causes rashes, marijuana intoxicates, and the bark of the willow tree yields one of the most powerful and effective drugs ever discovered: asprin, used to treat fever, blood clotting and to prevent heart attacks. Unregulated herbal fen-phen caused widespread, serious damage to people's hearts, including 30 fatalities. As temalloy points out, conventional drugs also sometimes cause deleterious and unexpected side effects. That is why they must be carefully tested before use, and monitored continuously. I do not see why that same principle does not apply to herbal medicines. If they are effective (as some are, no doubt), they should be regulated. Many important drugs were originally discovered in herbs, trees and animals, and there are probably thousands more waiting to be discovered. This is yet another reason why we must preserve biodiversity and wilderness areas. Many drugs, including asprin, were originally discovered in nature but later synthesized. This gives better control over dosage and contents, and in some cases it helps preserves rare species. The endangered Pacific Yew was the original source of the cancer drug taxol. It took many trees to supply taxol, but fortunately the drug has now been synthesized. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 15:27:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BMR7ao030471; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:27:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BMR63d030451; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:27:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:27:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050811175204.044e82b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:26:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Herbal medicine In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B7A2F8 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B7A2F8 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Zell wrote: >In a word, no, no, no, no, no > >Supplements can't be fairly regulated because the ENORMOUS bias of money >distorts the whole subject. . . If that is true, the method of regulating herbal medicine must be adjusted to fix the problem. A simple solution would be regulate herbal medicine pretty much the way we regulate food. People are allowed to eat just about anything they want, even if it known that the food is bad for you consumed on a daily basis (McDonald's french fries), or it stinks (durian fruit, and the voodoo lily), fatal in large amounts (whiskey), or it has little or no caloric content (celery and many other uncooked vegetables). There is only one rule for food, and it is the same one I quoted the other day: First, do no harm. As long as a food does not poison people, it is allowed. That relaxed rule should be applied to herbal medicine, only the testing should be more comprehensive because people do not eat herbs often, so we know less about them than we know about most foods. As long as a herb it has been tested carefully and shown not to cause harm, you can use it even if it is probably ineffective. It is a placebo. These tests will also probably reveal in the first approximation whether the herbal medicine has the desired effect or not. If the tests indicate it probably does no good, it should be labeled as a placebo. That would be a bad rule to apply to conventional medicine, because most conventional medicine is much more expensive than herbs, and it usually has more of the active agent. It has a larger effect, good or bad. If it does not cure you a probably still causes some undesired side effect. >This sort of thing happens time and time again - as promising treatments >for diseases are quietly shelved because drug companies know that they >are unpatentable or unprofitable. Examples: High blood pressure? You >can treat it with a simple $300 gadget called Resperate instead of >drugs. >Good luck finding out about it - my doctor never heard of it - despite >solid clinical trials. I doubt it. $300 is quite a lot of money and high blood pressure affects millions of people. If this device works, someone would probably be selling it and making hundreds of millions of dollars. I will grant that capitalism does not always work, and there are missed opportunities. In any case, unfair competition does not only affect the drug market. It exists in every business, including software, clothing, vacations and so on, yet by and large the market supplies these things at optimum costs. Of course every market is different and the drug market does have some unique problems. >Regulation is merely a pretext to get rid of drug company competition. I think if you examine the history of medicine and regulation, and you see how things were before drugs were regulated in the 19th century, you will understand the wisdom of regulation. Perhaps it needs to be adjusted to encourage competition, but it was not imposed as a pretext to reduce competition. On the contrary, the drug companies vigorously opposed it. The same goes for the regulation of addictive drugs such as cocaine, by the way. People banned it back in 1914 for very good reasons. It caused 5,000 fatalities in one year, equivalent to 15,000 fatalities with today's population. If a drug killed 15,000 people in one year we would instantly ban it, and if it was imported from some other country we would go to war to stop it. I do not think that drug prohibitions have been effective. They should be adjusted to emphasize prevention and treatment instead of interdiction. But to suggest that they be dropped altogether is to ignore history and court disaster. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 18:34:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C1Y7TS004771; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:34:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C1Y56B004754; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:34:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:34:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:33:01 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Emergence - the Miraculous Possibilities Message-ID: <42FBD21D.3104.1206C95 mark.cpovo.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B7A1B5 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.30 public beta 1) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:41:26 -0300 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 201.11.223.49 X-MDRemoteIP: 201.11.223.49 X-Return-Path: mark cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:41:28 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11 Aug 2005 at 14:47, Zell, Chris wrote: > I just stumbled across a powerful modality for treating cancer in vivo - > by using electrical fields in an unexpected range (100 - 300khz) > (Cancer Research 64 3288-3295 May 1 2004) Who knows what we might find > by reducing our sense of reductionism! URL? Details, please. Thanks. Mark From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 18:44:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C1iBWB008475; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:44:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C1iAZa008464; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:44:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:44:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:43:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Herbal medicine X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42fbfed9.472e.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.218.114 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote: > and Jed Rothwell responded; >>I'm sure you've heard Parksie crow about the scientific studies showing >>that herbal and energy medicine are inefective. IMHO, >While I hate to agree with Park about anything, recent reports that >echinacea is ineffective seem to be based on careful research. I have used a mixture of herbs, one of which is echinacea. When used at the first sign of a cold, it seemed to make it much less severe. Timing is critical however. IMHO, that is how they produced the desired results. There is a book which Kevin Tudeau is marketing. I think that it has more truth than fiction in the book. Unregulated >herbal fen-phen caused widespread, serious damage to people's hearts, >including 30 fatalities. > Herbal fen-phen is an oxymoron. Fen-phen is a pharmecutical drug. Last year the allopath's (MD;s) killed 250,000 people with the unintended effects of their poisons. IMHO, the whole petro-drug complex is an intregal part of the G-dless,. New World Odor crowd. >As temalloy points out, conventional drugs also sometimes cause deleterious >some are, no doubt), they should be regulated. > >Many important drugs were originally discovered in herbs, trees and >animals, > You will also notice that Parksie likes to attack the energy medicine regimns. What I know for sure is that I have had several conditions, water on the elbow, sores in my mouth, and my friend the homeopath recommended a remedy which relieved both of them. The energy healing systems have survived the test of time because generations of people have received the relief that I have from their symptoms. It may be that Parksie is ignorant, OTOH, he's more than likely shilling for the people who pay his keep. IMHO, nobody could be as stupid as Parksie seems to be, and manage to get a PhD in physics. OTOH, the physics establishment has a reputation of picking the biggest dullards to teach, ditto for their mouthpiece. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 19:41:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C2ej7g029749; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:41:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C2eelr029715; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:40:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:40:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD471 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:28:54 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If a bunch of hobbyists can upgrade a brand new product straight off the production line to the extent they have then in "who's best interests" were these vehicles designed/produced in the first place? To put it another way. Why were these vehicles under engineered to todays technical abilities? Who ever said that the oil companies control what vehicle manufacturers produce and sell? :-) John Rudiger Perth WA Ph:- 08 9232 7150 Fax:- 08 9232 7155 Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, 12 August 2005 4:34 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Looks like DaimlerChrysler might be the first on the market: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/jul05/0705ncar.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 19:54:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C2s3MG002722; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:54:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C2s2nv002700; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:54:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:54:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001d01c59ee9$09ac42e0$9e027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Either-Or Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:53:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C59EBF.1EBF68D0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C59EBF.1EBF68D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C59EBF.1EBF68D0" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C59EBF.1EBF68D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. Fine. Until this argument is excluded by experiment, however, lets=20 make it clear that nature does not always "want" to be=20 simplified...AND....on closer evaluation, this argument may indeed=20 end up being the simplest anyway. QM is often maligned because it=20 is too "mystical" but that does not make it wrong. This=20 explanation does suffers now from being hodge-podged together from=20 a variety of sources, but that does not make it wrong - only=20 experiment can do that. Instead of exothermic deuterium fusion, the deuterino may=20 oscillate between a shrunken state and ground state, and is always=20 "pumped" back up by ZPE until a zone (exciton) becomes depleted.=20 This may go on for some time without any helium being formed.=20 Perhaps once in every 6-7 million (or so) of these ZPE deuterino=20 oscillations - the "shrinkage" on the downside, does not stop at=20 n=3D2 followed by an oscillation but continues autocatalytically=20 down to the fusion-ready state. Why? because the localized ZPE=20 Casimir zone has become energy-depleted in the multiple of ~24 MeV=20 and it therefore requires a balancing act for the "borrowed"=20 energy. An alpha particle (sans gamma) will provide this balance.=20 Proportionality is maintained. QM has masqueraded as fusion. There=20 was a hydrino but it was an oscillating hydrino. The "real" energy source was always ZPE, not fusion - although a =20 "new kind" of fusion occurred in which no high energy gamma was=20 detected because the energy of this gamma had already been=20 borrowed, in the QM sense. Confusing? Ockham-be-damned ? More later.... Jones.. More !! More!! Serve us up some more "meat and potatos".Thinking outside the box is = an understatement. its more like thinking outside the " time " envelope = I keep harping on. Hopefully Remi will read this post and re-examine his math used in his = website for Thermo-electric conversion. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C59EBF.1EBF68D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

Fine. Until this argument is excluded by experiment, however, lets =
make=20 it clear that nature does not always "want" to be =
simplified...AND....on=20 closer evaluation, this argument may indeed
end up being the = simplest=20 anyway. QM is often maligned because it
is too "mystical" but that = does not=20 make it wrong. This
explanation does suffers now from being = hodge-podged=20 together from
a variety of sources, but that does not make it wrong = - only=20
experiment can do that.

Instead of exothermic deuterium = fusion, the=20 deuterino may
oscillate between a shrunken state and ground state, = and is=20 always
"pumped" back up by ZPE until a zone (exciton) becomes = depleted.=20
This may go on for some time without any helium being formed. =
Perhaps=20 once in every 6-7 million (or so) of these ZPE deuterino =
oscillations - the=20 "shrinkage" on the downside, does not stop at
n=3D2 followed by an = oscillation=20 but continues autocatalytically
down to the fusion-ready state. Why? = because=20 the localized ZPE
Casimir zone has become energy-depleted in the = multiple of=20 ~24 MeV
and it therefore requires a balancing act for the "borrowed" =
energy. An alpha particle (sans gamma) will provide this balance.=20
Proportionality is maintained. QM has masqueraded as fusion. There =
was a=20 hydrino but it was an oscillating hydrino.

The "real" energy = source was=20 always ZPE, not fusion - although a       =
"new=20 kind" of fusion occurred in which no high energy gamma was
detected = because=20 the energy of this gamma had already been
borrowed, in the QM sense. = Confusing? Ockham-be-damned ?

More later....

 

Jones..

More !! More!!

  Serve us up some more "meat and potatos".Thinking outside the = box is=20 an understatement. its more like thinking outside the " time " envelope = I keep=20 harping on.

 Hopefully Remi will read this post and re-examine his math used = in his=20 website for Thermo-electric conversion.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C59EBF.1EBF68D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C59EBF.1EBF68D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001801c59ee9$076ab750$9e027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C59EBF.1EBF68D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 20:12:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C3CGlf011047; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:12:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C3CFNR011030; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:12:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:12:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00b801c59eeb$93bdcd80$2a79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD471 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:02:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Subject: RE: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids > If a bunch of hobbyists can upgrade a brand new product straight off the > production line to the extent they have then in "who's best interests" were > these vehicles designed/produced in the first place? > > To put it another way. Why were these vehicles under engineered to todays > technical abilities? > > Who ever said that the oil companies control what vehicle manufacturers > produce and sell? :-) ------------------------ MC: Methinks you miss the point. Plug-in hybrids give the individual owner an electric car for local travel with the safety backup of the IC engine. It shifts a burden to the local utility, which may welcome increased night-time load to better use the capital investment in the generators and grid system. It doesn't do much for the whole energy economy unless your house is powered from a waterfall, wind farm or nuclear plant. If the grid generator is oil, gas, or coal fired, you are still utilizing expendable, polluting fuels. Also, if you "hack" the automobile's system, you violate its warranty, may do damage, and may in fact not gain all you think you are. Toyota apparently got the basic hybrid design 'right' because other manufacturers, such as Ford, are licensing it. Mike Carrell > > > John Rudiger > Perth WA > > Ph:- 08 9232 7150 > Fax:- 08 9232 7155 > > Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] > Sent: Friday, 12 August 2005 4:34 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids > > > Looks like DaimlerChrysler might be the first on the market: > > http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/jul05/0705ncar.html > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 14:54:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7BLs933018492; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:54:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7BLrwNg018334; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:53:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:53:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200508112153.j7BLrXR9018157 ultra5.eskimo.com> Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:53:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Thread-Index: AcWeu43MZEVlclX0TMqbOX5hoMv/zwAABkUgAADHeqA= In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B7A2F8 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: http://www.resperate.com/ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Resperate&btnG=Google+Search -----Original Message----- From: Zell, Chris [mailto:ChrisZell clearchannel.com] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 3:42 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine In a word, no, no, no, no, no Supplements can't be fairly regulated because the ENORMOUS bias of money distorts the whole subject. I can personally testify to my own research on treatments for MS - and how $$$$$$$$ was poured into trials that seemed determined to show some positive effect for expensive interferon type Drugs - while simple UNPROFITABLE treatments such as Swank's diet is ignored or ridiculed and linoleic acid effects utterly ignored. This sort of thing happens time and time again - as promising treatments for diseases are quietly shelved because drug companies know that they are unpatentable or unprofitable. Examples: High blood pressure? You can treat it with a simple $300 gadget called Resperate instead of drugs. Good luck finding out about it - my doctor never heard of it - despite solid clinical trials. I can show you dramatic results of simple seaweed extracts on cancer done in Japanese studies years ago - which you'll likely never hear about because the stuff will never make any money. I understand that Graviola was shelved for the same reason. Regulation is merely a pretext to get rid of drug company competition. Put a damn label on the side of the bottle and leave everyone else alone. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:27 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Herbal medicine temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote: >I'm sure you've heard Parksie crow about the scientific studies showing >that herbal and energy medicine are inefective. IMHO, that just goes to >show you that you can prove anything that you want to. Especially if >the scientific establishment is paying you to do it. While I hate to agree with Park about anything, recent reports that echinacea is ineffective seem to be based on careful research. I think he also has a valid point that unregulated herbal remedies are a threat to public health. This is because everyone knows that some herbs are powerful drugs. Even Park would readily agree that poison ivy causes rashes, marijuana intoxicates, and the bark of the willow tree yields one of the most powerful and effective drugs ever discovered: asprin, used to treat fever, blood clotting and to prevent heart attacks. Unregulated herbal fen-phen caused widespread, serious damage to people's hearts, including 30 fatalities. As temalloy points out, conventional drugs also sometimes cause deleterious and unexpected side effects. That is why they must be carefully tested before use, and monitored continuously. I do not see why that same principle does not apply to herbal medicines. If they are effective (as some are, no doubt), they should be regulated. Many important drugs were originally discovered in herbs, trees and animals, and there are probably thousands more waiting to be discovered. This is yet another reason why we must preserve biodiversity and wilderness areas. Many drugs, including asprin, were originally discovered in nature but later synthesized. This gives better control over dosage and contents, and in some cases it helps preserves rare species. The endangered Pacific Yew was the original source of the cancer drug taxol. It took many trees to supply taxol, but fortunately the drug has now been synthesized. - Jed -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 8/9/2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 21:40:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C4dvaX012977; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:40:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C4duTb012962; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:39:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:39:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD47B caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:28:13 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote: >I'm sure you've heard Parksie crow about the scientific studies showing >that herbal and energy medicine are inefective. IMHO, that just goes to >show you that you can prove anything that you want to. Especially if the >scientific establishment is paying you to do it. While I hate to agree with Park about anything, recent reports that echinacea is ineffective seem to be based on careful research. # Unfortunately the tests conducted used less than the recommended doses and were not used as a homeopathic drug, 4 to 7 days on, 4 to 7 days off. They were used as any other Modern Drug with repetitious doses at regular intervals over an extended period of time. I think he also has a valid point that unregulated herbal remedies are a threat to public health. This is because everyone knows that some herbs are powerful drugs. Even Park would readily agree that poison ivy causes rashes, marijuana intoxicates, and the bark of the willow tree yields one of the most powerful and effective drugs ever discovered: asprin, used to treat fever, blood clotting and to prevent heart attacks. Unregulated herbal fen-phen caused widespread, serious damage to people's hearts, including 30 fatalities. As temalloy points out, conventional drugs also sometimes cause deleterious and unexpected side effects. That is why they must be carefully tested before use, and monitored continuously. I do not see why that same principle does not apply to herbal medicines. If they are effective (as some are, no doubt), they should be regulated. Many important drugs were originally discovered in herbs, trees and animals, and there are probably thousands more waiting to be discovered. This is yet another reason why we must preserve biodiversity and wilderness areas. Many drugs, including asprin, were originally discovered in nature but later synthesized. This gives better control over dosage and contents, and in some cases it helps preserves rare species. The endangered Pacific Yew was the original source of the cancer drug taxol. It took many trees to supply taxol, but fortunately the drug has now been synthesized. - Jed # The problem with identifying the "key" active ingredient for the purpose of synthetic production is that you don't know what role all the other chemicals in the original medicinal herb play. In many Homeopathic remedies even non-active chemicals in the herbal medicine play an important (catalytic) role in support of the active ingredient. It is a shame that the majority of people alive today in the "western world" have forgotten how to use herbal/homeopathic type remedies which now days come under the title of "old wives tales", alternative medicine or crackpot medicine! John Rudiger Perth WA Ph:- 08 9232 7150 Fax:- 08 9232 7155 Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 22:34:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C5YGul002246; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:34:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C5YEgP002236; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:34:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:34:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:31:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids In-reply-to: <00b801c59eeb$93bdcd80$2a79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > From: > Subject: RE: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids > > >> If a bunch of hobbyists can upgrade a brand new product straight off the >> production line to the extent they have then in "who's best interests" > were >> these vehicles designed/produced in the first place? >> >> To put it another way. Why were these vehicles under engineered to todays >> technical abilities? >> >> Who ever said that the oil companies control what vehicle manufacturers >> produce and sell? :-) > ------------------------ > MC: Methinks you miss the point. Plug-in hybrids give the individual owner > an electric car for local travel with the safety backup of the IC engine. It > shifts a burden to the local utility, which may welcome increased night-time > load to better use the capital investment in the generators and grid system. > It doesn't do much for the whole energy economy unless your house is powered > from a waterfall, wind farm or nuclear plant. If the grid generator is oil, > gas, or coal fired, you are still utilizing expendable, polluting fuels. Well, at least an electric vehicle is not fussy about what is on the menu. A conventional vehicle will only consume petroleum products. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 22:58:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C5vnlS013071; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:58:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C5vlal013053; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:57:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:57:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:57:30 -0500 Subject: RE: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42fc3a4a.4a00.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.141 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8UlCTB.A.5LD.bpD_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Rudiger posted; >If a bunch of hobbyists can upgrade a brand new product straight off the >production line to the extent they have then in "who's best interests" were >these vehicles designed/produced in the first place? > There are several potential explanations, engineers particularly ones who work for a bureaucracy, are conservative. fear of lawsuits, environmental considerations, cost considerations. >To put it another way. Why were these vehicles under engineered to todays >technical abilities? See above. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 11 23:30:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7C6Tenq025300; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:29:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7C6TcRZ025273; Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:29:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:29:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: temalloy metro.lakes.com Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Reply-to: temalloy metro.lakes.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:29:21 -0500 Subject: RE: Herbal medicine X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8a, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <42fc41c1.4a7d.0 metro.lakes.com> X-User-Info: 64.61.217.217 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote: > and Jed Rothwell responded; >While I hate to agree with Park about anything, recent reports that >echinacea is ineffective seem to be based on careful research. and John Rudiger responded ># The problem with identifying the "key" active ingredient for the purpose >of synthetic production is that you don't know what role all the other The key word here is synthetic. The drug companies have to create a new molocule so that they can patent it. The synergestic effect of the other molocules probably contributes too. Then there is the energy aspect. the plant derived chemicals have an aura from the living system which produced them, IMHO this contributes to the effect too. >chemicals in the original medicinal herb play. In many Homeopathic remedies Don't confuse the chemical effects of the phytochemicals in the herbal material with the energy effects of the homeopathic remedy. >even non-active chemicals in the herbal medicine play an important >(catalytic) role in support of the active ingredient. > >It is a shame that the majority of people alive today in the "western world" >have forgotten how to use herbal/homeopathic type remedies which now days The establishment has done it's best to miseducate the public on this as they do in everything else. >come under the title of "old wives tales", alternative medicine or crackpot >medicine! If an enemy force had done to America what the education establishment has done, we would consider it an act of war! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 03:47:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CAkvS0020488; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:47:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CAktj8020471; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:46:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:46:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <046a01c59f2b$20a56ed0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: 500 MW Solar Installation Coming to California Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:46:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0467_01C59F09.99539180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <9U4flD.A.z_E.f4H_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0467_01C59F09.99539180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is an incredible story. Using concentrated solar and the old = Stirling Engine, a major Southern California utility just signed on to = the biggest solar project in American history, a utility scale = installation in the desert of California that will produce 500 MW and = potentially 850 MW for around 6 cents per kWH. This will prove we can = switch to alternative energy. Steampunk Solar Power August 11, 2005 A new agreement was just signed by Southern California Edison to = guarantee 20 years' purchase of electricity from a new 4,500 acre solar = farm to be built near Victorville, California. The farm will initially = be designed to put out 500 megawatts, but can be expanded to 850 = megawatts. This will represent the largest solar power facility in the = world, and will put out more electricity than all other US solar = projects combined. Funny thing, though -- it won't use a single = photovoltaic cell. Instead, these solar power generators will use a nearly 200 year old bit = of technology: the Stirling Engine. Pretty much every time we post something about solar concentrators or = home cogeneration or somesuch, we get a series of comments about the = neglected beauty of Stirling Engines. Admittedly, Stirling Engines -- = first invented in 1816 by Scottish clergyman Robert Stirling -- are = quite elegant. Here's the Wikipedia entry on how they work: The Stirling engine works by the repeated heating and cooling of a = sealed amount of working gas, usually air or other gases such as = hydrogen or helium. The gas follows the behaviour described by the gas = laws which describe how a gas' pressure, temperature and volume are = related. When the gas is heated, because it is in a sealed chamber, the = pressure rises and this then acts on the power piston to produce a power = stroke. When the gas is cooled the pressure drops and this means that = less work needs to be done by the piston to recompress the gas on the = return stroke, giving a net gain in power available on the shaft. The = working gas flows cyclically between the hot and cold heat exchangers.=20 The working gas is sealed within the piston cylinders, so there is no = exhaust gas, (other than that incidental to heat production if = combustion is used as the heat source). No valves are required, unlike = other types of piston engines. [...] The ideal Stirling engine cycle has = the same theoretical efficiency as a Carnot heat engine for the same = input and output temperatures. The thermodynamic efficiency is higher = than steam engines (or even some modern internal combustion and Diesel = engines). Stirling Energy Systems has been working on solar power generation units = for 20 years, but this is the first serious implementation of the = design. The SES website has a particularly useful visualization of how = the systems work (screen capture to the left), and it's one of those = systems that seems almost too good to be true. If it's so simple, so = straightforward, why hasn't it been done before? Parsing through the = Stirling Energy Systems website, it seems the answer is cost; until = recently, putting together reliable, functional systems able to produce = utility-scale amounts of power remained simply too expensive.=20 If all goes well, the 20,000 dish system should be fully online by 2010. = However, because of the modular nature of the units, the farm will start = generating power as soon as the first unit is plugged into the grid. The = cost of the project wasn't mentioned in the stories, but I saw a so-far = unconfirmed report that power from this system is expected to run = ~$.06/kWh, making it competitive with most other sources. http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003285.html#more ------=_NextPart_000_0467_01C59F09.99539180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is an incredible story. Using concentrated = solar and=20 the old Stirling Engine, a major Southern California utility just signed = on to=20 the biggest solar project in American history, a utility scale = installation in=20 the desert of California that will produce 500 MW and potentially 850 MW = for=20 around 6 cents per kWH.  This will prove we can switch to = alternative=20 energy.
 
Steampunk Solar Power August 11, 2005

A new agreement was = just=20 signed by Southern California Edison to guarantee 20 years' purchase of=20 electricity from a new 4,500 acre solar farm to be built near = Victorville,=20 California. The farm will initially be designed to put out 500 = megawatts, but=20 can be expanded to 850 megawatts. This will represent the largest = solar=20 power facility in the world, and will put out more electricity than all = other US=20 solar projects combined. Funny thing, though -- it won't use a single = photovoltaic cell.

Instead, these solar power generators will use = a=20 nearly 200 year old bit of technology: the Stirling = Engine.

Pretty=20 much every time we post something about solar concentrators or home = cogeneration=20 or somesuch, we get a series of comments about the neglected beauty of = Stirling=20 Engines. Admittedly, Stirling Engines -- first invented in 1816 by = Scottish=20 clergyman Robert Stirling -- are quite elegant. Here's the Wikipedia = entry on=20 how they work:

The Stirling engine works by the repeated heating = and=20 cooling of a sealed amount of working gas, usually air or other gases = such as=20 hydrogen or helium. The gas follows the behaviour described by the gas = laws=20 which describe how a gas' pressure, temperature and volume are related. = When the=20 gas is heated, because it is in a sealed chamber, the pressure rises and = this=20 then acts on the power piston to produce a power stroke. When the gas is = cooled=20 the pressure drops and this means that less work needs to be done by the = piston=20 to recompress the gas on the return stroke, giving a net gain in power = available=20 on the shaft. The working gas flows cyclically between the hot and cold = heat=20 exchangers.
The working gas is sealed within the piston cylinders, = so there=20 is no exhaust gas, (other than that incidental to heat production if = combustion=20 is used as the heat source). No valves are required, unlike other types = of=20 piston engines. [...] The ideal Stirling engine cycle has the same = theoretical=20 efficiency as a Carnot heat engine for the same input and output = temperatures.=20 The thermodynamic efficiency is higher than steam engines (or even some = modern=20 internal combustion and Diesel engines).


Stirling Energy = Systems has=20 been working on solar power generation units for 20 years, but this is = the first=20 serious implementation of the design. The SES website has a particularly = useful=20 visualization of how the systems work (screen capture to the left), and = it's one=20 of those systems that seems almost too good to be true. If it's so = simple, so=20 straightforward, why hasn't it been done before? Parsing through the = Stirling=20 Energy Systems website, it seems the answer is cost; until recently, = putting=20 together reliable, functional systems able to produce utility-scale = amounts of=20 power remained simply too expensive.

If all goes well, the = 20,000 dish=20 system should be fully online by 2010. However, because of the modular = nature of=20 the units, the farm will start generating power as soon as the first = unit is=20 plugged into the grid. The cost of the project wasn't mentioned in the = stories,=20 but I saw a so-far unconfirmed report that power from this system is = expected=20 to run ~$.06/kWh, making it competitive with most other = sources.

http://ww= w.worldchanging.com/archives/003285.html#more 
------=_NextPart_000_0467_01C59F09.99539180-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 03:48:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CAlpjs020865; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:48:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CAlorc020845; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:47:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:47:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <047501c59f2b$3e9ddb70$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <42fc3a4a.4a00.0 metro.lakes.com> Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:47:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think the oil companies are terrified of plug-in hybrids. They opposed and defeated a very modest 1 MPG rise in gas mileage standards over a decade for American vehicles on the eve of the Iraq war. They know every 1 MPG of efficiency cuts into their bottom line. The last thing they want is vehicles getting four or five times their current gas mileage and they've set their Public Relations hacks lose against plug-in hybrids. This is the biggest threat to their markets ever. Also, plug-in hybrids are just a step away from full electric cars which would decimate their markets. Don't expect any help from the oil companies. Kudos to the tinkerers for pushing the plug-in issue by proving it can be done in the real world. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 1:57 AM Subject: RE: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids > John Rudiger posted; > >>If a bunch of hobbyists can upgrade a brand new product > straight off the >>production line to the extent they have then in "who's best > interests" were >>these vehicles designed/produced in the first place? >> > There are several potential explanations, engineers > particularly ones who work for a bureaucracy, are > conservative. fear of lawsuits, environmental > considerations, cost considerations. > >>To put it another way. Why were these vehicles under > engineered to todays >>technical abilities? > > See above. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 04:43:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CBhE3V007908; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:43:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CBhCuw007883; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:43:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:43:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Short essay on Darwin vs. Creat. Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:42:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, The link below. R. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 07:07:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CE6r3d004534; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:07:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CE6pD0004510; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:06:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:06:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:06:28 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509B7A4BC CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Herbal medicine Thread-Index: AcWew/U4ECqkVpEAQ+WBXAAi0Q/DJwAfZOjQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Aug 2005 14:06:29.0490 (UTC) FILETIME=[0925E520:01C59F47] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7CE6YgI004373 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 6:27 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Chris Zell wrote: >In a word, no, no, no, no, no > >Supplements can't be fairly regulated because the ENORMOUS bias of >money distorts the whole subject. . . Let me add no, no, no, no, hell no! I have good reasons for absolutely opposing the FDA/Drug Cabal - and so do the American people. Congress was shocked by the sheer volume of mail they received on the subject of supplement regulation (DSHEA) - supposedly only exceeded by mail during the war in Vietnam. Why? because they know (some) alternatives work - and they rightfully observe corrupt government agencies prostituting themselves to drug companies. Note the situation with Canadian phamacies - in which Bush Administration officials worked out a quiet deal with Canada to stop or reduce importation after FAILING to prove to skeptical Congressmen that a general health hazard exists with Canadian drugs. It's a little embarrassing to not be able to cite a single negative example, as happened in one hearing. I strongly believe that we are close to getting REAL anti-aging treatments in hand. I also believe that it is likely that such treatments will involve natural supplements that are UNPATENTABLE. If you value your life ( and I'm not making a joke here!) absolutely keep them away from regulating supplements. Consistent with that, look at what the drug companies are up against: They must pay maybe 500 - 600 - 900 million bucks to get a new drug to market and then risk getting it wrecked by side effects they couldn't forsee. They see the GREATEST MARKET OPPORTUNITY IN HUMAN HISTORY SLIPPING THRU THEIR FINGERS because a rapidly aging world population is shifting to supplements and alternatives. AND NOW FOR THE WORST POTENTIAL DISASTER OF ALL! As researchers investigate natural, unpatentable supplements, THERE IS THE VERY REAL POSSIBILITY that they could stumble across a cheap substance that slows down aging damage AND WIPES OUT THEIR MARKETS ENTIRELY. Dang Martha, I don't need that expensive arthritis prescription anymore! This is why there are now TWICE the number of registered drug company lobbyists in Washington as actual Congressmen! People the world over continue to suffer and die largely because drug research priorities are wildly skewed against cheap, unpatentable therapies. This is why the Lancet - in the 1930's - protested against the utter lack of progress in cancer research. Now, its 70 years later and the standard treatment is "cut, poison and irradiate" - and they don't even warn you that many cancer treatments are CARCINOGENIC themselves! It's truly amazing what can prevail when the natural and the inexpensive are painted out of the picture - rather like a Soviet Cosmonaut who fell out of political favor ( "where'd that guy go? Siberia, maybe") Sorry for the rant but we're on the verge of wonderful things and I don't want to see them screwed up by governmental obstructionists. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 07:09:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CE8hiC005239; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:08:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CE8gnT005213; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:08:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:08:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812095054.044d8aa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:07:52 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids In-Reply-To: <00b801c59eeb$93bdcd80$2a79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD471 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> <00b801c59eeb$93bdcd80$2a79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >MC: Methinks you miss the point. Plug-in hybrids give the individual owner >an electric car for local travel with the safety backup of the IC engine. Right. Actually, my only concern with this arrangement would be that I drive such short distances the gasoline would remain in the tank unused for months. I think gasoline gets "stale" after a while. Maybe from contamination? >It shifts a burden to the local utility, which may welcome increased >night-time >load to better use the capital investment in the generators and grid system. Electric power companies are thrilled at the prospect. EPRI is promoting this idea and investing in it. >It doesn't do much for the whole energy economy unless your house is powered >from a waterfall, wind farm or nuclear plant. If the grid generator is oil, >gas, or coal fired, you are still utilizing expendable, polluting fuels. I disagree. First, about 32% of electricity comes from hydroelectric, nuclear or alternatives. Second, only a small fraction of electricity is generated from oil, and this fraction is declining. Oil generation peaked in 1978 with 365 billion KWH out of 1,646 (22%). By 2002 it had fallen to 90 billion KWH out of 2,714 (3%). If most of the miles driven by cars were powered by coal or uranium, OPEC's economic power and most of our problems in the Middle East would disappear. Third, electric cars are far more efficient overall than gasoline cars. Even if your electricity comes from coal, which is the worst fossil fuel, you would produce less carbon dioxide per mile of travel. Sources: EIA, Annual Energy Review 2002, chapter 8; EPRI. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 07:15:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CEEdQG008431; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:14:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CEEcuh008419; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:14:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:14:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Typos sorted. RE: Short essay on Darwin vs. Creat. Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:14:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorted out a few typos etc. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Sent: 12 August 2005 12:43 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Short essay on Darwin vs. Creat. Dear Vo, The link below. R. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 07:19:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CEIW3H010245; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:18:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CEIVVe010225; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:18:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:18:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812100846.044d1dc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:18:04 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids In-Reply-To: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD471 caraupermb01.carrie r-apac.com.au> References: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD471 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John.Rudiger asks: >If a bunch of hobbyists can upgrade a brand new product straight off the >production line to the extent they have then in "who's best interests" were >these vehicles designed/produced in the first place? Note that the hobbyist version of the car cannot reach highway speeds. It is not practical yet. A hobbyist can always optimize or improve off-the-shelf technology. I am no hobbyist, but even I have assembled many personal computers that were better than anything sold off the shelf by Compaq or Dell. (Although that is less true nowadays than it was 10 or 20 years ago.) >To put it another way. Why were these vehicles under engineered to todays >technical abilities? Because it takes five or 10 years at least to design and begin manufacturing an automobile. The Prius you drive today was designed years ago, and it was an incredible breakthrough for 1995. This is true of any high tech gadget; prototype computers or TiVOs under development at corporations are far ahead of what is in the stores today. Both Toyota and Honda designed and began manufacturing their hybrid automobiles in record time, many years ahead of their competitors. The batteries are biggest engineering limitation with the Prius. These are circa 1995 batteries. Upcoming improved batteries should make the car better, and more like the hobbyist version. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 07:36:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CEa679017963; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:36:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CEa5fj017935; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:36:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:36:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812102517.044d4b90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:35:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812095054.044d8aa0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD471 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> <00b801c59eeb$93bdcd80$2a79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.1.2.2.20050812095054.044d8aa0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Even if your electricity comes from coal, which is the worst fossil fuel, >you would produce less carbon dioxide per mile of travel. I am comparing conventional fossil fuel generation to conventional ICE automobiles, both circa 1990. This is from an NREL document: http://lenr-canr.org/EnergyOverview.pdf Fossil fuel average CO2: 1,505, Energy: 5.1 starting units per unit of propulsion ICE CO2: 2,400, Energy 9.5 starting units. When you compare an electric car powered by a circa 1990 coal-fired generator to a hybrid automobile, the hybrid probably produces less CO2, and the units of energy are about equal. When you compare an electric car powered by an advanced gas turbine electric generator to a hybrid car, the electric car produces less CO2 and much better mileage. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 07:52:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CEqGwj024372; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:52:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CEqEGM024342; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:52:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:52:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812104031.044d51c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:51:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812095054.044d8aa0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD471 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> <00b801c59eeb$93bdcd80$2a79ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.1.2.2.20050812095054.044d8aa0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >I disagree. First, about 32% of electricity comes from hydroelectric, >nuclear or alternatives. Plus, I forgot to mention, most electric cars will be recharged overnight, when most electricity comes from baseline nuclear power in most states. (I think it is around 80%.) What it boils down to is that with electric cars, we could have millions of nuclear powered automobiles, with no change to the present infrastructure. We would use more uranium. Uranium demand has increased a great deal lately, and there is a boom in uranium mining in the U.S. western states and elsewhere. I think that plug-in hybrids really do have the potential to end our dependence on imported oil quickly. We could do it in 5 or 10 years in a crash program, if we had to. At present the U.S. imports ~60% of its oil, 11 million barrels per day, an appalling number. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 07:58:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CEvwC0026971; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:58:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CEvuqs026943; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:57:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:57:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:57:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050812145733.QLDY25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Zell, Chris" > I strongly believe that we are close to getting REAL anti-aging > treatments in hand. If you don't already know about it, look at alpha lipoic acid: http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/ds/dsAlphaLipoicAcid.php I have been taking 200 mg three times per day for almost a year and it has reversed my diabetic neuropathy and improved my cataract in my left eye to the point that I probably will not need the same lens replacement surgery that I had in the right. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:00:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CF09CU028207; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:00:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CEjgnR021692; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:45:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:45:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005e01c59f4c$734e7660$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "Vortex" References: <046a01c59f2b$20a56ed0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Subject: Re: 500 MW Solar Installation Coming to California Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:45:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <66oWdD.A.4SF.VYL_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: However, high-paid energy consultants, and other experts at DoE, brought in at the behest of the current Petrocracy, have bitterly complained - "While the Solar Energy industry would like you to believe Solar Power to be "eco friendly," Solar energy is NOT really a renewable resource, and these numbers are a sham. We have a limited amount of sunlight and increased use of commercial solar power would mean less to be used elsewhere, potentially creating an ecological **disaster** if this happened on a large enough scale. The solar industry likes to throw around statistics about how the entire U.S. could entirely move over to solar power if we created such-and-such amount of solar farms on valuable western deserts, but what they don't mention is if we did this we would completely exhaust our supply of solar energy by 2150. And shading the desert will negatively impact many important species which depend on lots of heat, such as the Armadillo and the giant Amarillo rat. And what about the millions of high-paying jobs in lost in off-shore drilling. Sure, some of that work has been outsourced to Mexico, but still, that off-shore money eventually makes it back to good old USA. Use of solar power should be avoided at all costs. Petroleum is being actviely replenished in many wells. We have the proof. Help promote renewable energy from withing the earth instead ;-) Signer, Harry S. Tuttle DoE Energy Expert and 7-Sisters Bagman ....Parphrased from Slashdot///... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:05:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CF4xfo030209; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:05:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CF4w4U030189; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:04:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:04:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:04:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <2lO2pD.A.kXH.ZqL_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Athletes know about this, take the two Lipoic acid and Acetyl-L-cartinine and your stamina increases. Have a look at the small print on health drinks in sports shops. Things like Creatine drinks are laced with it. It most definitely gives you a buzz in aerobic exercise. I reckon they should ban this type of thing. Also too much Lipoic acid will damage your liver. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Terry Blanton Sent: 12 August 2005 15:58 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine > From: "Zell, Chris" > I strongly believe that we are close to getting REAL anti-aging > treatments in hand. If you don't already know about it, look at alpha lipoic acid: http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/ds/dsAlphaLipoicAcid.php I have been taking 200 mg three times per day for almost a year and it has reversed my diabetic neuropathy and improved my cataract in my left eye to the point that I probably will not need the same lens replacement surgery that I had in the right. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:09:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CF9554032017; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:09:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CF9467031998; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:09:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:09:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine, The Drug Olympics Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:08:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unless you want a drug Olympics. Hey, what's natural anyway?! I remember the comedian Lenny Henry going on about his hero Ben Johnson and his stripping and banning. "It wasn't as though he had a Harley-Davison!" He might be missing something... -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Sent: 12 August 2005 16:05 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Athletes know about this, take the two Lipoic acid and Acetyl-L-cartinine and your stamina increases. Have a look at the small print on health drinks in sports shops. Things like Creatine drinks are laced with it. It most definitely gives you a buzz in aerobic exercise. I reckon they should ban this type of thing. Also too much Lipoic acid will damage your liver. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Terry Blanton Sent: 12 August 2005 15:58 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine > From: "Zell, Chris" > I strongly believe that we are close to getting REAL anti-aging > treatments in hand. If you don't already know about it, look at alpha lipoic acid: http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/ds/dsAlphaLipoicAcid.php I have been taking 200 mg three times per day for almost a year and it has reversed my diabetic neuropathy and improved my cataract in my left eye to the point that I probably will not need the same lens replacement surgery that I had in the right. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:16:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CFG1R2002754; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:16:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CFFxei002735; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:15:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:15:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:15:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050812151537.QUEA25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > Plus, I forgot to mention, most electric cars will be recharged overnight, > when most electricity comes from baseline nuclear power in most states. (I > think it is around 80%.) What it boils down to is that with electric cars, > we could have millions of nuclear powered automobiles, with no change to > the present infrastructure. Unfortunately, this would likely not be the case without some incentives. Most people would pull into their garage and plug in their charger thus adding to the peak load in the summer. They would need an incentive to plug in before going to bed. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:19:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CFIX4v003963; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:18:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CFIVXC003916; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:18:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:18:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:18:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050812151807.QVKD25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > Right. Actually, my only concern with this arrangement would be that I > drive such short distances the gasoline would remain in the tank unused for > months. I think gasoline gets "stale" after a while. Maybe from contamination? Evaporation of the lighter distillates and contamination from condensed water. It helps if you keep your tank as full as possible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:22:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CFMOlq006483; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:22:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CFMNK2006463; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:22:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:22:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:21:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Athletes know about this, take the two Lipoic acid and Acetyl-L-cartinine >and your stamina increases. Have a look at the small print on health drinks >in sports shops. Things like Creatine drinks are laced with it. My friend mentioned a homeopathic patch which gives the user increased stamina. They only work for a while and the effect can be destroyed by things like microwave radiation. What I want to know is how I can measure the effect, and how to recharge the patches. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:29:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CFTQPw009704; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:29:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CFTO3x009670; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:29:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:29:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: 500 MW Solar Installation Coming to California Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:29:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050812152902.RASC25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > However, high-paid energy consultants, and other experts at DoE, > brought in at the behest of the current Petrocracy, have bitterly > complained - "While the Solar Energy industry would like you to > believe Solar Power to be "eco friendly," Solar energy is NOT > really a renewable resource, and these numbers are a sham. Then we'd better damn well do it before the Chinese take all the solar energy. Mr. President, we must avoid a solar energy gap! -Gen. Turgidson PS Reminds me of the explanation why broadcast stations put out so much RF power . . . because of all the receiving antennae sucking up the energy. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:30:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CFUNqF010253; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:30:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CFULIr010231; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:30:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:30:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c59f52$ed69dd80$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <20050812151537.QUEA25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:31:33 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:15 PM Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids > > Unfortunately, this would likely not be the case without some incentives. Most people would pull into their garage and plug in their charger thus adding to the peak load in the summer. They would need an incentive to plug in before going to bed. > Power utility controlled switching is used many places to control water heaters etc. easy to put another controlled point in the garage so the utility can switch the car on when the load is needed. Regards JohnH From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:41:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CFegCT015696; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:40:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CFebMv015640; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:40:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:40:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:40:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050812154012.RGGL25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <3iMm8D.A.P0D.0LM_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Harris" > Power utility controlled switching is used many places to control water > heaters etc. easy to put another controlled point in the garage so the > utility can switch the car on when the load is needed. Since when did Australia become a socialist country. ;-) Yes, I worked on one of the first "load shedding" systems for Cobb County EMC back in the 70s. The Co-ops get some serious ratchets in the price when their peak increases. I'm not sure how you would guarantee compliance. Some people need their car at night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 08:42:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CFfhbP016226; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:41:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CFfgNX016212; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:41:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:41:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812113004.04b037d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:41:14 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids In-Reply-To: <20050812151537.QUEA25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050812151537.QUEA25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > think it is around 80%.) What it boils down to is that with electric cars, > > we could have millions of nuclear powered automobiles, with no change to > > the present infrastructure. > >Unfortunately, this would likely not be the case without some >incentives. Most people would pull into their garage and plug in their >charger thus adding to the peak load in the summer. They would need an >incentive to plug in before going to bed. That should not be hard to fix. The Prius already has a sophisticated computer with many options and a touch screen. You would set up the plug-in hybrid like a dishwashing machine which runs automatically overnight with a timer. You might add a question like this to the set-up: "When car is plugged in after 6 p.m., recharge 1. Immediately or 2. Overnight." [Default: 2] This option can be overruled on a one-time basis. For example, you visit a friend's house at night, and you plan to drive home again at 10:00 p.m. You plug the car in. This question pops up on the control screen. Instead of letting it wait until the wee hours of the morning, you touch "1. Immediately" and it starts to recharge. Alternatively, perhaps you plug the car into a special external box with a waterproof heavy-duty power supply, like the one used for an outdoor air-conditioner unit. The box would have similar buttons on it: RECHARGE NOW and RECHARGE OVERNIGHT. The kind of people who would buy these cars at first would be conscientious and they would often select RECHARGE OVERNIGHT even if their power meters did not give them a discount for night electricity. Later on, when there are tens of millions of these cars, intelligent power meters would become common, and this would provide an economic incentive to select off-hours charging. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 09:02:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CG2Q5F025842; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:02:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CG2PoG025830; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:02:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:02:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004101c59f57$64caa360$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <20050812154012.RGGL25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:03:33 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:40 PM Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids > Since when did Australia become a socialist country. ;-) No - Still a overcontrolled duplexed monocracy :-) JohnH From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 09:34:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CGYLSl006063; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:34:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CGYJGI006038; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:34:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:34:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a901c59f5b$a0bf2950$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Got Brand? Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:33:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C59F20.F3FEA950" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C59F20.F3FEA950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who needs branding? Well anyone in the solar energy industry arena, = that's for sure .... Name the top 5 companies in the industry....err...uh...how about one? So, who needs branding... "Who doesn't?" ... is the answer coming from = the "Got milk?" guys. And they've probably got a one-liner which might = be put to good use promoting Solar or a solar company (with help from = yours truly). This is also a plug for Goodby, Silverstein & Partners, = the San Francisco ad agency best known for its "Got milk?" series (the = Budweiser lizards, etc)...according to my take on Blair Clarkson's fine = article (in an obscure mag, called "Industry Standard" which you could = never locate, unless you have a dental appointment soon - which is where = I saw it).=20 The Left-Coast bunch of wits at Goodby Silverstein are the hand's down = #1, hot ticket in Ad Agencies these days - eat you heart out, big apple = - you don't have a clue. Take the Ad they introduced last November for = TiVo. It is unfoundedly the funniest thing that I have ever seen on the = boob-tube, bar none, including the bloopers, Chris Rock, SNL and animal = comedians. The now-infamous ad featured ex-football 49er greats Joe = Montana and Ronnie Lott, out on the golf course chatting about Ronnie's = latest problem...err... shall we say... "masculine itch." Just as Joe = reaches for a big jar of ointment and scoops out the cure.... the ad = cuts away to the tag line: "TV your way." The clever point being: TiVo = gets rid of ads you really don't want to see.=20 If you haven't seen this spot, you won't get it. But if you have seen it = (and are male and played high school sports in the USA), then you are = probably rolling on the floor in uncontrollable flashback-laughter, as = we speak. Another clever billboard Ad (for eTrade Brokerage) reads simply: "Root = of all evil ... Can't buy happiness ... Blah, blah, blah." The reader = must fill in the blanks - demonstrating once again that less-is-more. = But again...you had to be there....kinda like "nobody doesn't like Sara = Lee."=20 Anyway, this kind of subtle semi-ironic Ad-hoc-humor neatly capture = "branding" in the post-dot-com era - (i.e. 'don't take yourself too = seriously' ) and illustrates how a previously unknown company, or = cooperative (in the case of Got-Milk) can get its message quickly = ingrained into the public psyche - one step ahead of withering economic = influences and/or entrenched challenges from the Petrocracy .=20 Oh... forgot to mention... my suggestion to the "Solar industry" (is = there really such a thing?)... is simple... (in addition to hiring = Goodby Silverstein, and having them hire me on as consultant).... = Remember "Got milk?"- the mantra that boils down the product to its bare = essence?=20 How about something like "Got rays?".... I can think of a ton of ways to = "take-off" from that premise, including a variation of the tried and = true "Eat my Photons, malefactor".... that last blip appealing mainly to = video-game-jocks. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C59F20.F3FEA950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who needs branding? Well anyone in the = solar energy=20 industry arena, that's for sure ....
 
Name the top 5 companies in the=20 industry....err...uh...how about one?
 
So, who needs branding... "Who = doesn't?" ... is the=20 answer coming from the "Got milk?" guys. And they've probably got a = one-liner=20 which might be put to good use promoting Solar or a solar company (with = help=20 from yours truly). This is also a plug for Goodby, Silverstein & = Partners,=20 the San Francisco ad agency best known for its "Got milk?" series (the = Budweiser=20 lizards, etc)...according to my take on Blair Clarkson's fine article = (in an=20 obscure mag, called "Industry Standard" which you could never locate, = unless you=20 have a dental appointment soon - which is where I saw it).
 
The Left-Coast bunch of wits at Goodby = Silverstein=20 are the hand's down #1, hot ticket in Ad Agencies these days - eat you = heart=20 out, big apple - you don't have a clue. Take the Ad they introduced last = November for TiVo. It is unfoundedly the funniest thing that I have ever = seen on=20 the boob-tube, bar none, including the bloopers, Chris Rock, = SNL and animal=20 comedians. The now-infamous ad featured ex-football 49er greats Joe = Montana and=20 Ronnie Lott, out on the golf course chatting about Ronnie's latest=20 problem...err... shall we say... "masculine itch." Just as Joe = reaches for=20 a big jar of ointment and scoops out the cure.... the ad cuts = away to=20 the tag line: "TV your way." The clever point being: TiVo gets rid of = ads you=20 really don't want to see.
 
If you haven't seen this spot, you = won't get it.=20 But if you have seen it (and are male and played high school sports in = the USA),=20 then you are probably rolling on the floor in uncontrollable = flashback-laughter,=20 as we speak.

Another clever billboard Ad (for = eTrade=20 Brokerage) reads simply: "Root of all evil ... Can't buy happiness ... = Blah,=20 blah, blah."  The reader must fill in the blanks - demonstrating = once again=20 that less-is-more. But again...you had to be there....kinda like "nobody = doesn't=20 like Sara Lee."

Anyway, this kind of subtle semi-ironic=20 Ad-hoc-humor neatly capture "branding" in the post-dot-com era - = (i.e.=20 'don't take yourself too seriously' ) and illustrates how a previously = unknown=20 company, or cooperative (in the case of Got-Milk) can get its message=20 quickly ingrained into the public psyche - one step ahead of = withering=20 economic influences and/or entrenched challenges from the = Petrocracy .=20

Oh... forgot to mention... my suggestion = to the=20 "Solar industry" (is there really such a thing?)... is = simple... (in=20 addition to hiring Goodby Silverstein, and having them hire me on as=20 consultant).... Remember "Got milk?"- the mantra that boils down the = product to=20 its bare essence?

How about something like "Got rays?".... = I can think=20 of a ton of ways to "take-off" from that premise, including a variation = of the=20 tried and true "Eat my Photons, malefactor".... that last blip appealing = mainly=20 to video-game-jocks.

Jones

------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C59F20.F3FEA950-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 11:50:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CInqVw028300; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:50:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CInmVa028266; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:49:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:49:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c59f6e$8d449c30$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Short essay on Darwin vs. Creat. Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:47:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C59F44.626D2600"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C59F44.626D2600 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C59F44.626D2600" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C59F44.626D2600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRemi, In a response to Jones post on Either-or I wrote I hope you re-examine = your math on your Thermo electric paper. Digressing into Darwin vs IT = can distract you from some math correction you need to make on your = website. Afterwards , you can have lotsa fun with the D vs.IT debate.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C59F44.626D2600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Remi,
 
In a response to Jones post on Either-or I wrote I hope you = re-examine your=20 math on your Thermo electric paper. Digressing into Darwin vs IT can = distract=20 you from some math correction you need to make on your website. = Afterwards , you=20 can have lotsa fun with the D vs.IT debate.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C59F44.626D2600-- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C59F44.626D2600 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000c01c59f6e$4b090b30$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C59F44.626D2600-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 12:04:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CJ3ffG002402; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:03:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CJ3XRU002327; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:03:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:03:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c59f70$741da2e0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Got Brand? Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:02:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C59F46.8A548850"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C59F46.8A548850 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0021_01C59F46.8A57BCA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C59F46.8A57BCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote... >Anyway, this kind of subtle semi-ironic Ad-hoc-humor neatly capture = "branding" in the post-dot-com era - (i.e. 'don't take yourself too = seriously' ) and illustrates how a previously unknown company, or = cooperative (in the case of Got-Milk) can get its message quickly = ingrained into the public psyche - one step ahead of withering economic = influences and/or entrenched challenges from the Petrocracy .=20 >Oh... forgot to mention... my suggestion to the "Solar industry" (is = there really such a thing?)... is simple... (in addition to hiring = Goodby Silverstein, and having them hire me on as consultant).... = Remember "Got milk?"- the mantra that boils down the product to its bare = essence?=20 >How about something like "Got rays?".... I can think of a ton of ways = to "take-off" from that premise, including a variation of the tried and = true "Eat my Photons, malefactor".... that last blip appealing mainly to = video-game-jocks. Jones is right, you know. Thinking of the alltime famous " Frigidaire" = name makes one consider Cf and a name with " legs". Surely with the = imagination demonstrated by Vorts, a name for CF should be a piece of = cake. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C59F46.8A57BCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote...

>Anyway, this kind of subtle = semi-ironic=20 Ad-hoc-humor neatly capture "branding" in the post-dot-com era - = (i.e.=20 'don't take yourself too seriously' ) and illustrates how a previously = unknown=20 company, or cooperative (in the case of Got-Milk) can get its message=20 quickly ingrained into the public psyche - one step ahead of = withering=20 economic influences and/or entrenched challenges from the = Petrocracy .=20

>Oh... forgot to mention... my = suggestion to the=20 "Solar industry" (is there really such a thing?)... is = simple... (in=20 addition to hiring Goodby Silverstein, and having them hire me on as=20 consultant).... Remember "Got milk?"- the mantra that boils down the = product to=20 its bare essence?

>How about something like "Got = rays?".... I can=20 think of a ton of ways to "take-off" from that premise, including a = variation of=20 the tried and true "Eat my Photons, malefactor".... that last blip = appealing=20 mainly to video-game-jocks.

 

 

Jones is right, you know. Thinking of the = alltime=20 famous " Frigidaire" name makes one consider Cf and a name with " legs". = Surely=20 with the imagination demonstrated by Vorts, a name for CF should be a = piece of=20 cake.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C59F46.8A57BCA0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C59F46.8A548850 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001f01c59f70$730a8530$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C59F46.8A548850-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 12:07:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CJ7G1v004094; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:07:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CJ7EQT004063; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:07:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:07:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Taysun Generator Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:06:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050812190651.UOOH25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is presented for amusement purposes, the power source of Atlantis. However, it would be great if it worked! http://www.taysun.com/intro.htm Kewl t-shirt. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 12:38:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CJc9VB017677; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:38:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CJc7SH017653; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:38:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:38:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050812193750.00990f60 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:37:50 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Got Brand? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:02 pm 12/08/2005 -0500, Richard wrote: > Jones is right, you know. Thinking of the alltime famous > "Frigidaire" name makes one consider Cf and a name with > "legs". Surely with the imagination demonstrated by Vorts, > a name for CF should be a piece of cake. > > Richard Well, since CF is clearly a manifestation of the Beta-atmosphere (B-at), I suggest BatFusion - ;-) ============================= Nothing better than BatFusion for running your BatMobile. ============================= Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 12:52:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CJpOoN023497; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:51:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CJpMwD023490; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:51:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:51:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c59f78$2dbd4dc0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20050812151537.QUEA25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:58:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:15 AM Subject: Re: IEEE Article on Plug-In Hybrids > > From: Jed Rothwell > > > Plus, I forgot to mention, most electric cars will be recharged overnight, > > when most electricity comes from baseline nuclear power in most states. (I > > think it is around 80%.) What it boils down to is that with electric cars, > > we could have millions of nuclear powered automobiles, with no change to > > the present infrastructure. > > Unfortunately, this would likely not be the case without some incentives. Most people would pull into their garage and plug in their charger thus adding to the peak load in the summer. They would need an incentive to plug in before going to bed. > > A special charging plug and a timed outlet solves that problem. It could also be made tamper proof. Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 13:27:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CKR3SV004945; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:27:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CKR0Gw004888; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:27:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:27:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: CSICOP Founder Dies Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:26:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050812202638.VZMS25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <38fJ2.A.RMB.TYQ_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/61999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Phil Klass will certainly be missed: http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050812/NEWS01/508120337/1006 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 13:35:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CKYddQ008209; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:34:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CKYbMk008184; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:34:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:34:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seriously, Find out about experimental design. It obvious when you have to factor in all the variables. You'd be doing something like before and after tests on a treadmill and if you're really serious be collecting expelled air, sweat, urine etc. etc. Incidentally if you want to look like a marine quickly, do the creatine thing and some bodybuilding. It pumps the muscles full of water and a by-product of this is much increased stamina, explosive power, faster recovery and better repair. Nobody really knows the long term effect of these supplements. I find it amazing that they haven't been outlawed in professional sport. Creatine is much loved by footballers (soccer) and rugby players (er, football). I'm so sad, I should be on the beach now having a bar-b-que with the postgrads but I can't find parking. I like my car, I won't use the bus, I'll never change. The night is warm and full of totty and I'm in here emailing you sad people :) -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of thomas malloy Sent: 12 August 2005 16:22 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Herbal medicine >Athletes know about this, take the two Lipoic acid and Acetyl-L-cartinine >and your stamina increases. Have a look at the small print on health drinks >in sports shops. Things like Creatine drinks are laced with it. My friend mentioned a homeopathic patch which gives the user increased stamina. They only work for a while and the effect can be destroyed by things like microwave radiation. What I want to know is how I can measure the effect, and how to recharge the patches. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 13:36:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CKa1cR008867; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:36:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CKZw6F008832; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:35:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:35:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: CSICOP Founder Dies Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:35:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May his spirit live on. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Terry Blanton Sent: 12 August 2005 21:27 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: CSICOP Founder Dies Phil Klass will certainly be missed: http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050812/NEWS01/50812 0337/1006 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 13:40:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CKeHlA010728; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:40:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CKeFIe010700; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:40:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:40:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812163740.03791eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:39:54 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mills paper on-line Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Znidarsic sent me this. I untangled the URL from his message: Randell L. Mills, "Classical Quantum Mechanics," Physics Essays http://www.physicsessays.com/securepdf.asp?pwd=1902003J1K3D5W7Q9K1C3N5K7J&id=143 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 13:56:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CKtdKF016193; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:55:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CKtbLE016172; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:55:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:55:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: CSICOP Founder Dies Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:55:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=____1123880116390_R0,d3SvRnc" Message-Id: <20050812205516.WMGR25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1123880116390_R0,d3SvRnc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk > May his spirit live on. I hope this image comes through. I swore to Phil that I would not show it while he lived. It was taken at one of the British UFO assemblies several years ago. It's Phil being affectionate with the "Alien Autopsy" creature. ------=____1123880116390_R0,d3SvRnc Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: image/pjpeg; name="KLASUE.JPG" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="KLASUE.JPG" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAAAAAAAAAAD//gAfTEVBRCBUZWNobm9sb2dpZXMgSW5jLiBWMS4wMQD/ 2wCEABkRExYTEBkWFRYdGxkeJkAqJiMjJk84Oy5AXVJiYVxSWllndJV+Z26Mb1lagbCDjJme pqimZHy3xLWiwpWjpqABGx0dJiImTCoqTKBqWmqgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCg oKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoP/EAaIAAAEFAQEBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAABAgMEBQYH CAkKCwEAAwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoLEAACAQMDAgQDBQUEBAAAAX0BAgMA BBEFEiExQQYTUWEHInEUMoGRoQgjQrHBFVLR8CQzYnKCCQoWFxgZGiUmJygpKjQ1Njc4OTpD REVGR0hJSlNUVVZXWFlaY2RlZmdoaWpzdHV2d3h5eoOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaan qKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4eLj5OXm5+jp6vHy8/T19vf4+foRAAIB AgQEAwQHBQQEAAECdwABAgMRBAUhMQYSQVEHYXETIjKBCBRCkaGxwQkjM1LwFWJy0QoWJDTh JfEXGBkaJicoKSo1Njc4OTpDREVGR0hJSlNUVVZXWFlaY2RlZmdoaWpzdHV2d3h5eoKDhIWG h4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uLj5OXm 5+jp6vLz9PX29/j5+v/AABEIAScBUQMBIQACEQEDEQH/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/AOdzS5NAADj3 ozTAAaQmgBM0CgBaM0AGaM0AGTSUAGaM0AGaTNABmjNABRmgAzRmgAzRmgAzRmgBS2STx+FJ mgAzRmgAzRmgAzS5oATNLmgAzS5oAM0A0AGaM0AJmlBoAM0UAFJQAUUAFLQAlGaAEooAKKAD pRQAUd6AEozQMKXNAhKKACigAooAKKAEooAUUtACUtAC0CgAooAKKACigBaSgBRSGgYUlABm lzTAKQ0gCimIKM0gCkoGFFAgzSZoGLmigA5ooASigAzRQAuaO1AhM0ZoGLmjNAgpaACigApR QAUUAFFAxaKBCUvagYmKDQAlFMABooAM0UCCigAopAJRQMSlAJOBQBYhtGf73FWFtEHqahyN FAVrVQMiopLYBcihMTiVmjwOKjqyAFFABRQAlLQACloAKKBBS0AFAoAXNGaBjd2aXNIBc0ZF MAyKTcBQAbhToihcbjgUITGsV3HHTNJkUDDIo3CgA3CjcKAFDCjIoAMijIoATIoyKAFGCQB3 rQggUc9/Wpk7FwRdjQdx9KeEA6CszQPLU5BHWmvbjH4VSIkypNbAEHHHQ1Qmi2GrRmyLBFGK YBikxQAUUAAo59KAFooAKKAFooAKKAI6WkAUUALSGgBKKACigAooAKKAHpG7/dUmneTID90i ldDsxpRh1U02mIKKALFrFuO89BwPrWvDFjGev8qzk9TWC0LSxDrUgi547UJDbFMQXrTvKHGe hq0jOTI5YFIINZl5bDbkdc1ViLmURjg9qaTQMTJoyaQCZNGaAFzRmmAZpc0AGRS8UAFFABij FADWXaxB7UlIBaSgAzSUAFFABRQAUUALVu1s2kIJGfapk7IqKuzWgtwihSKm8kAdBXPuaEZi QnBAFVLqyRvu8NRGTTE0ZMkbRuVYUKOvsK6UZFy0k8tgpG8deB0NattJHIMIeah7mqehbHA5 60u3JHOMelMBZDwO9Bb1xxTRLI3bJ6VUuG+VqtPUhrQxJR82aiNACUUgCkoAWigAooAKWmAU UgCigCdv3qqgwChY5x1/zioCMUCQUmM9OaBjjG6rlkYA9yKbTEFFIYUUAFFAFyytt5DMM1tw xhF6YrCbuzWKsiaKJ5WGOB/OpDGmdrEZHvUpaXYeg1rZfWongUDk8VLVhlG808yxlkwSOlZt nZy3MxjUFQOGJ7VtTloQ1qbr2sdtAEVQCo6+vrVWOSKCccffTdn3FPqUTi+izzvz/u5qwlxE w4EmP+ubf4UK4DvNRuNkp/7ZN/hTRgtjBVuwYYJrSxncRgQOeKqzq3l5xnJppC5jLuMZwBgg c1TPWmxISipGJRQAtFABRQAUUwFpKQC0UATRIwdlPBAJ/SoT1piQlKvDCkMnnk3gYJ4UDk1X piQUUhhRTAKfCnmSBe3ek9ENG9Zw7UHHNWyvzBa5TUmupPslsrITv9FHQVgmG9nie5+YFW+6 Ac/Wtkl1F71rou2F7KgCzJjJwc96mvZCVXylY57DrWL7GlrO5l/bbqCQb4yq56EEVtWflhS6 4BY55rRRUXoRdvcL3dtUYyfQdx3qC2QPIpC52pjJH0/wqnuPoXFXBqRW568dqaIYM+DgfnUE qmXBJ4VuPbim2JIiZm3FDyainGFORwKuOpnJWMe5TDEfrVM9abBBSVIwooAKKACigBaSmAUt IAooAk3EuWJOSKZtJ7UxBtb+6fyowQeQaBiuRnim0AJS0AFFABV7TYgxYkd6ibtEqO5tw4H0 FPU7picZrnRqOMbyscnip9siwmMEbD2xVq+4NrYhFoiv5hGfr2prKojY7TuJyMdqi1gvcYU3 KN2CT0NOgh/hIHyj9KIfENvQVly4PNPxgDFboQmKcX29QTSAFdVDORkDsKTGI/vAng8frQT1 IoFDuzt6cVHdOiRkA5rWOxjPcwp5lY4FVj1oBCUUhiU4gBQe5oANvGabQAUtMApKAFoFIBaK AHbhS5WmIMrShsdGx9DQAu89d5/OkJoAYQMU2gYUUALWrpqYty3qazqfCVHc0VHFWrcArwME +tYR3NXsW41AwCKkcAjArZbGb3IpEwKpTzoCYd3ze3as2i46ik74VkA5HXFQu7CZPLPPPXuK lfEUiwhLD51AJ9DTsV0EidBz0qGQ81I0OidFBznPbimysX4AwD60X0FbUiY7R6D0HesvUJHY lD8uO3vVwTIqWRmnikqiAopAJS5NAC5+XHvTaAFopgJRQAtKKQBRTAKKAFBxSY9KAEpaAEoo AWigAra0vBtfpWdTYuG5dUYbBOKtREjHHSsEasux/eyacfv1t0MhsilwQp2nHB9Ky10VVX55 3LZzvAwaTC45IpLUFXcMDwCO4qjGwkv8E4KLx+NQlqaXuaKcZyeKXt1rUQx2x3qPDMRjge9I Y7y8DrUkcMkv3RhfU1SjclySVxLvy7KHcPmmbhSe3vWDIhYknmt0rKxzNtu7Krp8xqErj6VD LQlFIYUUgCimAUUAFGKAClFABRQAUUAFAODQApx2/GkoASloABjHTmigArT0ebazxHvyKiov dKjubMS/vhnvVoY8z5QOnQCsY7GjJkPAp7etWtiBy9KawwMdqOgilcgkbfU4FYd1KBc/uhte MkM3945/wpQV5FN2RIby4KYyo+i81Jb3RklEWGJPdTxW3ISqhdC+rHn171NFCzfdH40KPQfN pctR2qLy3zH9KlYqilmOFA5rRKxjKVznb2driYvjjoo9BVJzgdKZKICM/WmFePakyiFl2mkq CxKWkAlFMAooAKUUAFFAC0UANooAKWgBKcelADaKAFooAKfFIYpFdeoNJq4I6WwuFnVcDPHF XlRj86sdwOF96xjE1uL5jfxDBzzU6MGFC3E0KcKfm+7TGHUEE+h9KtIRBPE/DA5A5H1rnipa VmdPLJOSp6inCNmKb0I3Y9BwBWhokkCGUy4DAbsn+73rZGXQgkkkubsyqCHY4VV6gdhXTQ7v KTcMNtGR70kXNJJIfzWZq04AFup5PLH+QpoyMdyCOucVWY7mz15pjQ3GQO57UbcUAMZMj1qB 1K1LRSY2kqCgopgFFABRQAtFAC0UANooAKKACigAooAKWgApVBZgo6k4FAHSada/ZIpEL7mY 4yO1acZw+OyipRpYSOQOM+tPVccrwayvcbJB8wAB+buDR5ipmNTnsWrTbUh9iMtsOCcg/pVK /tBMpdOJB+R9jQnYdrmJLGyOQ6kMeTmmL6duprS+hMF7xr6EuZpWI5CgA+lba801sTU+ISWR Yomc9FGa5qeYyyO7HljTRmVJGIHGMnpQi8DnimMTGD/jSlOcd6YhBG7DIHA7mkMQZecA+lId ytNF5ZyDkVFWbVi07iUUDFooASgUALRQAUUAJRQAUUAFFABRQAUUALQKAN7T9SiKRpJkSL1z /F71rwyq3IIJLVK00NL3GvhJ26dQfzqwvzCsurGx23gjJGepHeo3VThSMHtir6EDQpB2tyPX 1qQJt6cj3ppDuZ+pW6uowPmHSscIUYggZz0zVIqO5s6JGRFK57sB+X/661F4q1sYz+JmdrM+ 2NYQeT8zfSsJ25zmqIGou59z/Ko4GetWPLXbjd2oQmMCL1bHr1pQgYZwdvQe9MBW4X6Coj8w yf50CK0vOR2qrWcjSItFIoKKACkoAWigAooASloAKSgAooAeIiYTJkYBxgnk0ygQUUDFoFAD hkHI4NdBpkyzhXVCJE+9gcGpfcqJpmNpGDNgH0FWoYyq8is0m3cbeg4rkVE68gMMjsfSmJDc 8YPrSO+z3PtVDRRlZmbDc9+KpXUR2h8YK9aIso1tLTZZISOWJY1dFanPLdnOX0vnTySDJGcD 6CqJ6gdeaoVh0wwVX0WgEqoz+tAiQAdSRgcAU75iM8k+ntTENdlXjIH4c1A7scgDGPWkNEDg jqarVDLQoopFCgA9WA4pKACigAooAKKAEpaACkoAUAk4ANFAEoWPyQQTv7rinQ24cZY4HYDq f/re9ArjmQBcAAHHUdx+NMSBn7qB6k0guRuoVyoIIHcUgpjJrW3e4mEaD6n0FdbZW6W8Koi4 A/X3rOT1sUloXEHNSdKEJgeaizklTSYIrSuUyveoSWIzmgsDHkbhxTLiP92V/vcYxVBcu2WP syAfwAKR70t5J5Vs7DqRgfjWqMHuYAYHGOMdBUUke2UoB1bjj/PrVHVWSUEV5jmb61KTuxzx 6UHIOD85HJHbFJh3P9RwKYgI2jr+lV5SoJpAivI2QahqGaIWikMKKAFpKAFopAFFMBQhpQlK 47ChPanBBSuNIUqAKgPWmhMfG5Q5H61Os6n7y4+nIpktCFd7bvOU57k4pWhhVcmYE+gpBcdp 1mLy42MxVAMkjrW1a6TaKfmQv/vGs5Sd7FpF1LG3j4hUIParCRMvAb86VtR3JV3j0NHmEfw0 7tCE8xs/dOKaxOdwU5qbhYq3B3BiQeR+VVIrgGdoZCOCNpPeiO5WxbfEaFncKPWnI8TR7wwK KcbvetUS3Ynby4tsiHhvvL/WqurP+6RQepJ/If8A160RH2kZKoGcdhnk0kk3n3Mkg4BGQB2q joxGyKT5MuT+lSqw5GFGfU0HIKrE87lH0BNG7nI3N36YpiGyF2yDhQOtVnGM0mCI5RhahrNm iFozQMKKACigBaKACikBKBTiKksMUooGI1QN1polhQKokWjigDX0BeZj/u8/nWyh5rCXxFrY sLlunWl+cdhRqAoLn2p4JFMBfMA6jFLvU9KLisROAaoXVpHIC6r8w9OtT5oaED70KsQxUDhu 4qS2kaFihQSJKQBycjitovQmW5emKQxtJIelYN1cPI4JA2qeFHatUZPch+V+AxxUGNrN0wtM qU3LcYhBJPftUiEKvJGT7UIgeGZRjdj8MUhds8Mv4CmIhYsOrnPsKhbA/iyaTKRFKciosVmy 0LikpDAgjqCD70UwCigBaKACigCccUpqDQUClxSGNIqFxzVIiQ2iqJCloA39BTFo7Y+8/wDQ VpIuD+Nc8ty1sSK22WrXUVURMT8KM0AGBRwKQCECoyintg+1AFWeEfeXgjvViyjVkEpHfgE9 KunuEnoUr258+Tg/IvA/xqg/PT0rcwICCGyuR/Wot4BIcELnnb19qGNCxKOv51Kqqemfw4pi Bk77cj3OaYNvOcA59KYiJ2BPH5VE3XOKTKRFIKZis2aIXFSSw7FjVj87849B2pIbI55GlmaR iSWOcmmUyUFFAwpaACigCcUtQaCipo0Z+AM/SkBZXTblxkQP/wB81FPpN2vPkPj/AHapJkyK LwuhwykH0IqPFMgKKYzotDGLIe5J/WtIVzvcsRv71WIG3LinHcGS0AVZIbabipaAbyOMUEZH vSGMYVF5hjVlJwCCAfSrg7MTV0Y6EkkH9O1DlQAeCT+dboyZAQcZ/vHrUAUljngN60xCp8rY wW9SKlVnC5X5gR1FABukIIGFHqajkxkZ5P8AKmBExxnCgUwLuPJzj9akZFIcsfyptQ9zRbE1 pF506oemefpSXUvmXLvn1x/IUIGV6WgAooAKKACikBYoqSxy12GkwwR2cbRKMsuS2OSapEyZ foqiSOaCKdSssauD6iuP1uyjsrzZEfkYbgD1FIDNxRQM6XSzm1i2jogFXM4Nc5ZKqZjPrUcL bWxT2AugClxjsa0IAZNMYjNSwF46ijavrSGBVajkjRhyKdkBlXdqInEiHgnBFUm5dR2zW0Nj OW5GTtYEnsfekVD/ABY/CrJInUN8yDAxk0o3LgjkdceooAduy24E4P6GmFsg+tMCFzubAprH bGaQyHovvSVmzRFu2ISGaTuBgfjVIng+5oWwMQUtABRQAUtAhKKBkuaMjvUjuKH9K6/QZfN0 6PPVcrVIls1BRTENY4FcPqs4uL6Vx0zgfhQwKWaUc0ijo9JbbZrj0FX0GSc9aw6lA10qcINx 9e1VJLgg5yB9K0Ub7kOVthj30mOXfH1xVZ9UUfxseOxqtBajRqy+sn51Yg1Ay/c84jPYE0rI NSZdT2/KZcEHBDjFTx6jnBIVvoaXL2C5Ot7G3X5frR9rgH3pVzSs0Vcpahc28kRWORGbIwAe azWbEqEnvitYbES3Ggljt9V9PekkO2Ngc+n4mrJI/vF+TgLjFOCfIMenFCAQfvFZhww6jHeo WJGRtNMBucDvUUh3PjsKllIjNJUMtE2/balR/EearmhAKopcUCDFGKACigAooAft9zRs96Vx 2FCe4rqPDLH7M6Hs39KaYmjcFFMRV1GbyLKWTuFOPrXCPnNJghtOUUDNjTbmGG1/ePhlJG3u e/FWBf8AnyeWoAU9eck1FtQvoSuCRx3pFg7tyfetbEGXqO43LIThV6CqSxu5wqlj7VPUpbEy 2Nwf4APqwqWO2vYCWiBUkYOGHSnZi5kRi3medFlVxvYAk/X1rp7e1ggGxIlwOMkZJpW1HfTQ tXEURiVdq+ox1rJvYUjIyN0bHAJ7GmJmdPaHG+BsEc4qu07EAMmCrflTQtx5JVkbPsTSy89+ 4/lVCHg/LtI9qQfKFBPI/lQIa3yy/Lxmo378nimBA7EDPftUeMDHeoZaGt0qPNSykOLfJt98 02gY9RxS0AJSigRqR2ED6Q04JM/3slsAAHpWXto6CvqG2jbQMkzRUlCit/w0+JJV9gaa3E9j ohRVEmL4jlxbJEP42yfoK5tuTUPcqIzHtRgelA7CgA9qlg/dyqy8Gi7BrQ6mzFvPbq5iIPTk nmpWggPRSPoa0Rm7Fe40+0nHziRT6giqv9kqgxBcbv8AZkGP1p2FdbETq0DiOVSrHp7/AEqS RRHK0ZYEj3pE2FiBLgjsauxuSQpVvwpMqJLdlRIvJBArF12VgkUa9Mkk/wBKOhRlRXUsZHzZ HoasXi77cXKcMOGHqKEK1mQo4kh25wacTujBHUdRVIVh27jP6kUjE5P0piGs2VDAjIOKjdvk zQMhGSd35UNyPcVJQw9KjqRoXFGKBjwKdtpCE21f0zTftpYlyiqQOBnNAG4NHtvKW386QryS Nwz29qjk8NQkfu7h1P8AtKDTEQf8I1J/z3X8qP8AhGpP+e6/lQBh45pwU+tQWOCGtXQCVvce qmmtwex1AoNWQcvr82+92dkXFY5xUPctbCUopDFFTlAjIM5JUE/jTRMn0N3SpC0DIxwFPBq8 pdT93ePatlsZEm5GHII+opjIOooBkN9MLe0LAgy9UGM496opYxOm1l+Y9T7lST/Soe4yeG0S 3RvLztYg4Pb/AD/SrFujF1UPtI9qRSEuhLvJZwQMjjr+VZGsPEYFDMDPxtA7DvVCMZRlwD0q 5dzBoRCnIPWpQ3uRRoQCqDOTnpmrdrYXVxu2gIB3fIqedorlTK8yzQSmORcMO39aiMpGfl5+ tUpk8o3zRzx1pskgcAYx61XMHKJvUimkjsaVwsNxTcUhihTW1pugG5iWWaXy1YZCqMnFIDR/ 4Rm1x/rps/hUUnhjj91c8+jr/hTsIzrnRry2BZot6j+JOa1dBhAtQwPJJJH4/wD1qLagaBsh 5m9WPXJHr+NTIzRDayuw7NjNK1ht3JNwo3CmI5O20q5nAKxNj1PAq/HoE38TIPxqLF3JP7Ac Dh0P50QabcWswkC9OhU5ppCuakVwxHzAZ/KmT3bKp2qM+9WSctelmndmJJJyapmszQT8KUUA LnHarrjzFSQHJAAP9KqJEzQ0w4SQfSrqN83Fax2M2WiWCD5j+dIGYLliT6UAUpws1xtflVXp 9f8A9VSjYhDKCTu3HJ71AAQZkRPu471JFGyNkOMgdQaBopXMkiy8ZK9881l6suZI3I+8g/ma BmdjJq7pluLi+ijk+71NSUdhFHHDFiJFUAdAMUyQknJ4pS7DRE0cJy00Kup4JYAmq13odrKp aI+S3buKUdrDZzl9ZS2cvlzLg9iOh+lVSKoQ0ijFAF220ua5txNG0eCSMEkEfpTX0y7T/liW /wB0g0CuROkyKFkSRVB4DAgV12jnNhDg5G0ULcTNAUtUAlQlUR9wABJ5xTETCipATijigCQd KKBhRQBHLGGBOPm9ayrhsg0+gGHdj5yapmszRCZooGL+FT202w7W4HrTTsTJXRrWeF344yKs xH5q2WxiaCjcB6VWlclyOwoBlaI7izf3jUpBqBkgBVT/AHjUtvBlGZh2oGZz7luAW5A4qlqq Eoo/55nH4GgEZQGGrU0dCt0rtwCQv1pDZ1QGVpkkZPSlJXGmN8vKkFTzSOTKoG046EEVKVh3 MjxCypYrHIwaTcNnqB3rm6tiQmaTNIZf0/Ums43Ty94Y5HzYxUr61ct92KNfwJpp2JcbkLap evwZyB6KAK6PRWLWMbMSSRyT9aL3YWsaYopgNY+9VgwacKOccmmItCjNSAmaM0ASiloGFJQB BcylI+ByeKyZTwTVdBdTIugM1TOPeszRDeKKBgDSg0gNLSnO+Re2M1tQRoVBxzWiehm1qWmb bGTWbNJtjd/QVRLCEqqhc9OKtKAoye3NSARHfIM9+a0VUBcUikZV+gU5qtPB9oGPUbT+PT9a oRhOgjbDdR1Aq5ZO73EJUDarjPPSpDc61DxT6YwpjHAoQHJa3P8AaL0rkBIvlH171nYQdSfw FKT1LilYQ7B0zTSw7Cp1HdCA88dacwdfvAr6ZFAriDPrXWaCf9Aj/H+dNbks1RQTVEkMz7VJ qnp4kkeWba2Gb5SwxxTYi+uTwcg+lPxmpGG2jbQA8HiloGFITQBn38mGCis+Z8CqEjLuWOaq MazNEMoGaBi88UZ9aAL2ln9++P7h/mK3bLIIYkbferjsZvcfdTgnYDWbeSGNIxjOXGR7Cqei IWrJtM3XGWkiUbD1ArQa3llAHCg+tRcuxJHaurbmcZ9BVrkL70AZl/DI2TsYj1FV4W2zqu7g oPzFUIzNZtUiu3fdgP8AMB/n3qraOBPFgc7h/Os2aRdjtY/u0+rIA1UvpxBbSSH+EZpoTOKc liWY8k5NNP3QMDg9e5qCxlFAFi0lMTlgyjjHzU+6vZZ4/KkVMA5BAoQralaup0A5sE+p/nQt wZrikJqyTM1W7NtFuXG7IxmnW+qG8I8qMqg+8T60MSLx3FcqRuHTPSnoxP3hg1Ix2aM0gHIe KdTGFMY4FNAYt1LuuX54Xiqsr5HWhgjPnJJ6VWY/Wsy0Mpd3yheMA5pjCgfjQBasJlhnLPko VwcCt+1ZGwUYMvtWkNjKe4s0Ycn+dZd4wM6IDnYOT70T2CO5r6Qf3LA4+9WmKgpi0UxBVaa0 ikO4KFfsRTAx/EcIEUEh6rlfrWJA22RfqKTGjtojlRUlMSEJrB8R3GI0gB+8dx+gpoRzxptQ WJRQAUUAAFdP4eI+xAejHNC3EzZFMc4FWiTl9ZuPNutgPypx+NSaNceXmNhkOePY0pbgtjoo T8oqYUgQUUAERyoqSmNBUUzhY2J6AUIGc0ZS2WPVjmoZH46ipbGkVHOahNSWJSZpgH4UooAl i+hrSsY1LbskcdjimkSxkzOGIMrEe5qAY354pSCJqafO8c4x91gAQfxP9K2be4jnUGNsnup6 ipjLoa1IaJonBozWhiFITTA5vxJc7pY4QQQoJI9DWXbGHf8AvAaTDU7C0cPArCp6YhrtgVx+ qT+feyN1AO0fQUPYFuUaTipKFEUjdEY/hS/Z5cf6t/yoC4hikB5Rh+FNxjrQAq9a19Nmkg5Q 4z196OombaX42ZdD+FVrvVIljO1WLe/FWtCDm3YvIWPJJyas2TbJk/3hUNl2OqgPyipxVMgK KQxlo++BG9QDU9MEBrP1aXZaOAeW+X86AOeMmOBmoXb/ADioLISwximE+9IoT8aKYB+FKPpQ BNH9K0LcYXvVIlkU/XNV8jdUscTXt1ja0ZwxEkSHjsQQcfzplixUTtnBWM4PoSQKyludcL8r TNQfa41JWVJlA4yOT+VQ/wBqshKvCARwRnFXdrczVOM9tBjaz/dhH4mq0+rTyKQuEH+z1pOo zSOHS1Zh3chaU56iooyc4AyTVrY5Z/EzpdLuXghCONw6+4rU+1xYySR9RVozKV/qUSQN5ZLP jjjpXKMcnrSbHEI0MkiovUmtNrIxBREqk93Y9acVcUmMudQke3WIAKVP3lYgn8BVPzT5e4yP npjcevahsVhVmm8wKJ36Z5JPbNWINSKwNFJDHKH/ALyj+lF+47dhii3lbO0xn25FXIYygHII 9RRbsK7LDthO1ULhuOaARSUZap4hiRD/ALQqSjq4DlRVgVRAZozSGU9Ik32aDPKjBrQzTGIT WHrkuWSMMMjkih7AtzHIYnjBqNs+lQWRn6UygAxRimAYpyjnrQBYjU5HNX4/lSqRLK82c9Kr 9+lSyoly3z5czf7AH5sKsWilrecKMliqgfU//Wrn6ne9F9xpQWCRjDM5cD5ijYC1ReyuWIby 2+bp6n61o46WMoVVdthFpkzOPNHloOpP9Knjgto5JNkRbyud7N3x0pxj3CdRy0izmrkmSd3P Umn2nyuPerOV7mzB0FTOx21SIM28JKms0j2/SpZSFhYRzKT05GfqMVsTOZIm2/ex2NVFky3K QjcRYXaWPowJqExkw79m7Ldc1LLWpE8ZDHKle1J5LYzmi4rEtu20bffNacJGMjg1aIZYMUbQ FvNCuDjYe9Zlwu0kcEkHimxIrKDkZzUy8EHPeoKOmtj8gqyDxTJFzRmkBg2TvFgqxBrUju5M c4P4UItkc95LggHb9BWPcEMST+tKQ4lVttRk8dakoYSR6Um72pgJu9jRu9qADd7U9SPSgRYh IzVwH5atEMrStzxUBPI5qWXEtxEi1kPqyj+ZrS0mNjAZEAJWUHB7gA/41hHc7qjtFl4s0bY3 KVDFjlTuwakaTbGzou4nLYLYJ/OtkcjREZIRAhcp5bclu2T1qhdX8TRNFCpzgjIHAFF0i1CT OaJyxPrVu2XkU2YGpF0pzt8tUQUbgnHX3qg2TxmpLQwitJlDIEOR8uKqJMiFlELKynbwcjBJ pWlR0UO2AemEpNAmChWO0XC5zyHGKLq3liUb4yBjIZelTYvmViGEHdV+I1aM2OmOD16d6jnQ NASSNw5FWSUkPOKc5wOKzLN7T72ORArnZJ3B4zWkKCQooAwoO1W1PFNFsilPFUJ6ljRUYe9M Ye9SUNxmkxTAMe9IB70ALinAc0ATxjmrIJ21SIZA/JqMcMKllonDEIYwRtzmr0FxJbWkRjOC XYn9KxTszvklJJMtpqbOuHgVvxqOXU3UYjgjT3PNac3kYKir2uZ088s7bpHLH37VXdiqNg9R is73Z0NJRsimgywq/BgY4rc80up9KH6VRBSnqo6/NwakpDCKu3DbCMZ5HrTQMQTEhRtG3060 nkqyhwWjHoTkfnVbk7DreItIPmOPVlDCpr/as/yBV4/5ZkgH86nYe5WB2kcZz+dWYmwcY/Gm gaELFiRxSXDbYsgdBjFUiGUk6inHmoLLdsm9wC3Xua6G3QQRhFJI96CSTcaNxpgA/9k= ------=____1123880116390_R0,d3SvRnc-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 13:57:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CKvNCt017063; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:57:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CKvLVl017031; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:57:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:57:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404pq$1ahs3g1 mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,103,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1428033025:sNHT21041056" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: RE: CSICOP Founder Dies Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:56:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Cornwall Sez: > May his spirit live on. > > Phil Klass will certainly be missed: > I'll always remember one particular debate between Klass and Travis Walton on Larry King Live. At one point, in the passion of the moment, Klass blurted out "Your'e a g*d d**ned liar!" It was Classic Klass. I bet he's already smoozing with the aliens at Area 51. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 14:31:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CLU5Jb027625; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:30:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CLO7ch025478; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:24:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:24:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Mills paper on-line Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:15:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050812211506.WUFO25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > Frank Znidarsic sent me this. I untangled the URL from his message: > > Randell L. Mills, "Classical Quantum Mechanics," Physics Essays The copy on his web page is easier to read online (without those double columns): http://www.blacklightpower.com/theory/TheoryPapers/CQM060905.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 14:38:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CLbvib030876; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:38:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CLbtBJ030864; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:37:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:37:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812173220.04aefeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:36:33 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Paperback books available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not to blow my own horn here, but the paperback copies of "Cold Fusion and the Future" arrived. Let me know by private e-mail if you want one. I can afford to give away some copies, so let me know if you want me to send one to an open minded VIP or reporter. It looks pretty good except the back cover got messed up with the wrong font. No big deal. This is a 5" x 8.5" standard sized paperback. It came out 255 pages. It weighs just under 1 lb., which makes it convenient to mail. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 15:03:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CM3F80007408; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:03:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CM3Dq9007390; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:03:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:03:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=EdG5OaALsLqpvQZHd/sQzPxKIpf/sdNs4XnXNnQQV4ia3uoSakdDKCIrJ41fLiYB; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005851222339370 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 12, 2005 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:03:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d89ae39a9d137f6f4cf25054968514bf2ba8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.99.181 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 8/12/2005 1:16:35 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 12, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 12 Aug 05 Washington, DC 1. GLOBAL WARMING: ANOTHER DISPUTE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN RESOLVED. Homo sapiens has been around for maybe 50,000 years, but most of what we've learned about our universe, from how big it is to how small its pieces are, has been learned in the span of a single human lifetime. What made it possible was the development of a scientific culture that is open and conditional. The effect of homo sapiens on Earth's climate is perhaps the most complicated problem humans have tackled, and conceivably the most important. The system is working. We have a consensus on warming; disputes remain only over the details. One detail was records that were interpreted by a group at the U. Alabama in Huntsville as showing that the troposphere had not warmed in two decades and the tropics had cooled. However, three papers in Science this week report errors in the Alabama-Huntsville calculations. It seems that warming of the troposphere agrees with surface measurements and recent computer predictions. The group at Alabama-Huntsville concedes the error, but says the effect is not that large. That's the way it's supposed to work. It's a textbook example of science in the process of resolving a very complicated problem. 2. CREATIONISM: ABC NEWS AND GETTING THE DINOSAURS ON NOAH'S ARK. Earlier this year, WN asked a rhetorical question, "Is ABC News nuts?" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn021105.html. There is new information. Last night, ABC Evening News took viewers to the Museum of Earth History in Eureka Springs, Ark. Disputes are different in the Bible world. Genesis says a pair of every kind of air-breathing animal was taken on board Noah's Ark and in a world that's only 10,000 years old, that must include dinosaurs. Or it may be that the reporter, Jake Tapper, went to school in Kansas. "Religious views of creat ion that challenge accepted science are gaining support across the country," he told viewers, "The Kansas Board of Education this week tentatively endorsed new standards allowing more criticism of evolution in explaining the origins of life." As further proof, ABC showed President Bush delivering his "intelligent design should be taught in schools" remarks. To balance the President, science had AAAS CEO Alan Leshner, "I have no problem with people talking about religion as religion or belief as belief." Hmmm. "It's dangerous to talk about religious belief as if it were science." So what was ABC's conclusion? "Science is increasingly on the defensive." 3. SPACE: A FLAWLESS LAUNCH OF THE MARS RECONNAISSANCE ORBITER. The journey will take seven months, and it will remain in Mars orbit four years, sending back information on weather, climate and geology. It's not likely to find a reason to send humans. 4. PHILIP KLASS: TIRELESS DEBUNKER OF UFO FANTASIES DIES AT 85. An electrical engineer and senior editor of Aviation Week, Klass offered a $10,000 prize for solid scientific evidence of visits by extraterrestrials. He himself never uttered a word he could not back up. His health had been failing for several years, but there was still fire in his words. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 15:04:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7CM3YZU007500; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:03:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7CM3XcP007481; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:03:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:03:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812180200.04acbd10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:03:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Paperback books available In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812173220.04aefeb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812173220.04aefeb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And by the way, do not worry about credit card payments. Just send me eight buck when you get around to it, cash or check. Everyone on this list has credit with me. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 18:29:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7D1TIaX018771; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:29:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7D1TG0v018747; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:29:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:29:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.49.254] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [mOT] ET Docs Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:28:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050813012853.JLIK3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not documents, sorry: http://icberkshire.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0400bracknell/tm_objectid=15844931&method=full&siteid=50102&headline=-flying-saucer-surgeons-cured-my-dodgy-back--name_page.html or http://tinyurl.com/843el "'Flying saucer surgeons cured my dodgy back' Aug 11 2005 Nick Capehorn A RUSH OF reports to the News about UFO sightings over Bracknell have prompted one man to go one better - he says he has been operated on by aliens. And Terry Walters, 62, wants anyone who has had an extra-terrestrial encounter to get in touch. In 1966, Mr Walters, of Nine Mile Ride, Crowthorne, was left in agony when his back gave way as he loaded heavy luggage into the back of a Mini. He faced a trip to the doctors and possible confinement to a wheelchair. But as he laid in bed that night, someone entered his room and told him to follow them. When he awoke his back had been cured, so he went to Heatherwood Hospital to ask for the surgeon who operated on him. But staff denied any knowledge of it. Further tests showed he had undergone then-impossible back surgery. Not only that, but his blood makeup matched an astronaut who had spent 10 hours in space. Doctors said the only rational explanations for this could be if he were a lifelong smoker or had visited polluted Mexico City - but he had done neither." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 12 19:04:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7D245h9031026; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:04:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7D243vg031005; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:04:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:04:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:03:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Letter from Dr. Cahill Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Reginald Cahill is the author of The Speed of Light and the Einstein Legacy 1905 - 2005, which was published in IE vol 10 issue 60. I sent him the following: >Dear Dr. Cahill; > >It's so nice to see someone with a physics degree criticize >Einstein's GR. I assume that you read the issue of IE >where one author after another criticized GR. > >I post on Vortex-L, scientific anomalies. Eugene Mallove >used to post from time to time. Any anamoly is fair game, >but alternative energy sources are a favorite topic, as is >cohering the ZPE. I'm wondering if the Dark Matter and the >ZPE might be the same thing. I suggested this to Hal >Puthoff, and didn't get a response. > >One of the Vortexians posted the following book review, I >thought you might find it interesting; > >>I recently read a NY Times Book review concerning a new >book called "A >>Different Universe - Reinventing Physics From the Bottom >Up" And I received the following: Hi, Thanks for all those comments. I'm aware of many of the points you raised, and in the main agree with them. Physics has got it very wrong, and the experimental data to show that has been around for up to a 100 years, and in numerous experiments. The whole spacetime model is actually a fundamental mistake..there is no such thing. But in special cases (ie outside of a spherical matter system) the real phenomena can be written in the form of the spacetime mathematics, but in other cases SR and GR fail, and in a major way. We're not talking about decimal points here, but factors of 10. The `dark matter' effect is very much about the so-called ZPE. However the ZPE people base their thinking on covariant quantum field theory, which has much of the spacetime model built into it. So most of the ZPE stuff will need a major fix-up. Check out the websites in signature. Cheers, Reg Cahill A/Prof. Reginald T. Cahill (Phone: (+618) or (08) 8201 2417 Physicist & School Deputy Head (MobPhone: (+61) or (0) 41 882 5 882 School of Chemistry, Physics and Earth Sciences (Fax: (+618) or (08) 8201 2905 Faculty of Science and Engineering (email: Reg.Cahill flinders.edu.au Flinders University, GPO Box 2100 Adelaide 5001 Australia http://www.scieng.flinders.edu.au/cpes/people/cahill_r/processphysics.html http://www.mountainman.com.au/process_physics/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 01:52:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7D8puav028717; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:52:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7D8ptIb028698; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:51:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:51:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=U1SKM0D32MGzIfSX+963pXgz0OMAZUdDfV8jC7Ay3peXAcbAM06FX3HYf6nuChb9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005861375145170 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 150 Tonne Steam-Propelled Space Tug Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:51:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404b617cbd640f42d5392055cd55e1a28e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.110 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A 5 to 10 Megawatt Fission Reactor surrounded by 50 tonnes (50 cubic meters) of water for radiation shielding and heat for cogeneration, a "swimming pool reactor" used too preheat water from the 100 tonnes of water from the propellent tank (a very large Styrofoam ice chest) can produce 18 kilograms of steam per second and superheat it to 2000 degrees Kelvin or above so it can exit the thrust nozzle at 1,000 meters per second or so (18,000 newtons or 4,000 lbs of thrust?) for up to 1.5 hours. Too much time watching the NASA Channel? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A 5 to 10 Megawatt Fission Reactor surrounded by 50 tonnes (50 cubic meters)
of water for radiation shielding  and heat for cogeneration, a "swimming pool reactor"
used too preheat water from the 100 tonnes of water from the propellent tank
(a very large Styrofoam ice chest) can produce 18 kilograms of steam per second  and superheat it to 2000 degrees Kelvin or above so it can exit the thrust nozzle at 1,000 meters per second or so (18,000 newtons or 4,000 lbs of thrust?) for up to 1.5 hours.
 
Too much time watching the NASA Channel?  :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 02:38:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7D9ba9Z009759; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:37:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7D9bYpp009732; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:37:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:37:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Paperback books available Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:37:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You've rationalised spelling you Yanks, "cheque" not "check". Good 'ole Yanks, no social mind control going on then. Enough mischief. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Jed Rothwell Sent: 12 August 2005 23:03 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Paperback books available And by the way, do not worry about credit card payments. Just send me eight buck when you get around to it, cash or check. Everyone on this list has credit with me. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 02:44:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7D9iFMQ011927; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:44:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7D9iEhO011905; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:44:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:44:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Klass, get God on the WH lawn. RE: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:43:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Entirely neutral on this. Agnostic. What about the same prize for existence of God? Could we get God to land on the Whitehouse lawn? Or could we get church and state to separate? 4. PHILIP KLASS: TIRELESS DEBUNKER OF UFO FANTASIES DIES AT 85. An electrical engineer and senior editor of Aviation Week, Klass offered a $10,000 prize for solid scientific evidence of visits by extraterrestrials. He himself never uttered a word he could not back up. His health had been failing for several years, but there was still fire in his words. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 05:34:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7DCYEZk028331; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 05:34:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7DCYDBD028309; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 05:34:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 05:34:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pNJ2jJTBmuIk0tScM3hCzKq2BAT4eA6nGcCuTb71I9PzxzNIa6TKNyaHTHrgg2MW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058613113354980 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: 150 Tonne Steam-Propelled Space Tug Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:33:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fa45bb467fcf5d97b94169ce52b00241350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.157 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Further calculations show that a steam-propelled Space Tug pushing a 150 tonne payload could get an acceleration of 0.060 meter/sec^2. or achieve a velocity of about 216 meters/second with a one hour thrust, leaving 15 minutes of thrust left for homing the tug. Not too attractive for interplanetary travel, but possibly a good workhorse for one month travel lunar freight transport. A 50 tonne 20 Megawatt fission-heated Swimming Pool or Low Pressure Boiling Water reactor would occupy a sphere of about 16 feet diameter so that about 7.5 feet of water would surround the ~ 500 pound (~ 1/4 cubic meter) ~ 5 year (continuous-operating 3% U235) reactor core. The radiation leakage would probably be less than what the astronauts get from solar and other space radiation. A heat exchanger in the sphere would heat water from the propellent storage tank enough to get low pressure steam to power the ~ 2.3 megawatt electrical steam superheat generator. Would this tug, parked in space be competitive with earth launch of 150 tonne payloads bound for the moon, or might it be better to have them there to deflect threatening meteors? > > A 5 to 10 Megawatt Fission Reactor surrounded by 50 tonnes (50 cubic meters) > of water for radiation shielding and heat for cogeneration, a "swimming pool reactor" > used too preheat water from the 100 tonnes of water from the propellent tank > (a very large Styrofoam ice chest) can produce 18 kilograms of steam per second and > > > > superheat it to 2000 degrees Kelvin or above so it can exit the thrust nozzle at 1,000 meters > > per second or so (18,000 newtons or 4,000 lbs of thrust?) for up to 1.5 hours. > > Too much time watching the NASA Channel? :-) > Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Further calculations show that a steam-propelled Space Tug pushing a 150 tonne payload
could get an acceleration of 0.060 meter/sec^2.  or achieve a velocity of about 216
meters/second with a one hour thrust, leaving 15 minutes of thrust left for homing the tug.
Not too attractive for interplanetary travel, but possibly a good workhorse for
one month travel lunar freight transport.
 
A 50 tonne 20 Megawatt fission-heated Swimming Pool or Low Pressure Boiling
Water reactor would occupy a sphere of about 16 feet diameter so that about 7.5
feet of water would surround the ~ 500 pound  (~ 1/4 cubic meter) ~ 5 year
(continuous-operating 3% U235) reactor core.  The radiation leakage would probably be less than what the astronauts get from solar and other space radiation.
 
A heat exchanger in the sphere would heat water from the propellent storage tank
enough to get low pressure steam to power the ~ 2.3 megawatt electrical steam superheat generator.
 
Would this tug, parked in space be competitive with earth launch of 150 tonne payloads
bound for the moon, or might it be better to have them there to deflect threatening meteors?
 
>
> A 5 to 10 Megawatt Fission Reactor surrounded by 50 tonnes (50 cubic meters)
> of water for radiation shielding  and heat for cogeneration, a "swimming pool reactor"
> used too preheat water from the 100 tonnes of water from the propellent tank
> (a very large Styrofoam ice chest) can produce 18 kilograms of steam per second  and > > > > superheat it to 2000 degrees Kelvin or above so it can exit the thrust nozzle at 1,000 meters > > per second or so (18,000 newtons or 4,000 lbs of thrust?) for up to 1.5 hours.
>
> Too much time watching the NASA Channel?  :-)
>
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 08:13:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7DFD2si023226; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7DFD1VO023196; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <440397$ij8a22 mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,104,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="624175170:sNHT14563398" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Klass, get God on the WH lawn. RE: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:12:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cornwall se: > Entirely neutral on this. Agnostic. Noted. ;-) > What about the same prize for existence of God? Could > we get God to land on the Whitehouse lawn? Or could we > get church and state to separate? Best to ask for clearence before landing. People tend to get little excited when visitors come a'knocking unexpectedly. Perhaps another great flood. Or pestilence. Maybe a few earthquakes strategically placed here and there might serve as an adequate calling card. > 4. PHILIP KLASS: TIRELESS DEBUNKER OF UFO FANTASIES > DIES AT 85. ... > He himself never uttered a word he could not back up. I suspect this claim will be hotly debated within the UFO community. I believe Stan Friedman, nuclear physicist and tireless lecturer on UFOs, coined the term in regards to Phil's investigatory style as that of an "armchair" UFO investigator. OTOH, I'm sure Stan, at this moment of loss, will describe his encounters with Klass in more favorable terms. Klass was indeed an individual impossible not to notice. I suspect Klass planned it that way. He had a lot of fun playing the role of the skunk within the UFO community. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 15:43:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7DMgqJU021201; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:43:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7DMgnJ9021183; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:42:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:42:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5a058$45118730$2d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <410-220058613113354980 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: 150 Tonne Steam-Propelled Space Tug Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:42:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5A02E.5BB9A500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5A02E.5BB9A500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred wrote.. Further calculations show that a steam-propelled Space Tug pushing a = 150 tonne payload could get an acceleration of 0.060 meter/sec^2. or achieve a velocity = of about 216=20 meters/second with a one hour thrust, leaving 15 minutes of thrust = left for homing the tug.=20 Not too attractive for interplanetary travel, but possibly a good = workhorse for one month travel lunar freight transport. The fun part is calculating the torgue of a bladeless turbine .. talk = about some power!!!!. Hp is horsehockey, Torque is what a mule has in his rear. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5A02E.5BB9A500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred wrote..

Further calculations show that a steam-propelled Space Tug = pushing a 150=20 tonne payload
could get an acceleration of 0.060 meter/sec^2.  or achieve = a=20 velocity of about 216
meters/second with a one hour thrust, leaving 15 minutes of = thrust left=20 for homing the tug.
Not too attractive for interplanetary travel, but possibly a good = workhorse for
one month travel lunar freight transport.
 
 
 The fun part is calculating the torgue = of a=20 bladeless turbine .. talk about some power!!!!. Hp is=20 horsehockey,
Torque is what a mule has in his = rear.
 
Richard
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5A02E.5BB9A500-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 17:14:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7E0E4r4016079; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:14:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7E0E22Z016064; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:14:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:12:53 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: cold fusion myths Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_ppiTD.A.76D.Kzo_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vorts, Would you please take a look at these and provide me with any critique you may have, and also advise me if I am missing any? Feedback within 48 hours will be most useful, though I will also appreciate feedback at any time. http://www.newenergytimes.com/temp/MythsofColdFusion2005.pdf I do realize the reproducibility claim can be argued, and I welcome, and am prepared for such. Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 19:39:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7E2d1Ti030902; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:39:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7E2cx8U030875; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:38:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:38:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001501c5a079$44c7f810$d5037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Fw: Cold Fusion myths Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:38:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C5A04F.5B7AC440"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C5A04F.5B7AC440 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C5A04F.5B7C4AE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C5A04F.5B7C4AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: Steve Krivit=20 Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:15 PM Subject: Cold Fusion myths Steve,=20 The list reads well. Suggestions.. the title could as easily be called " Cold Fusion Facts" = rather than " myths" which is negative.. Every opportunity to express = views on CF should be in a 'positive " Myth # 12 fact can be stated>>> >Many scientific endeavors are valid but not yet commercially viable = including thermonuclear fusion energy< Thanks for the good work, dedication, energy and concern you express in = your devotion to sustaining the quest for Cf. Should I ever be of help = in any small way please contact me. You youngsters never know when your energy and dedication may inspire = some of us old timers ( 78 years and ticking) to press ahead on applied = research. For example , we had an interesting technical performance = breakthru in mixing propeller design. Something Frank Grimer posted on = Vortex L triggering my thought process and we modeled a dual 3 blade = propeller of UHMW poly Tivar. It can be described as a combo vena = contracta flume throat parallel leading blade- trailing blade = configuration that discharges at the exit of throat with an exit = velocity exceeding the flow across the outside surfaces of the blades = resulting in about 1/3 increase in mixing performance. Testing on a 5HP = frame submersible motor showed a conparison amperage of : Standard = propeller running amps 6.2 amps 460 vac 3 ph. and parallel propeller = 6.7 amps 460vac 3 ph. An increase of 1/2 amps for a 1/3 increase in = performance is more than acceptable in industry < grin>. Perhaps you seldom receive a pat on the back for your work and = dedication.. however.. it does not go unrecognized and you never know = when your work encoourages others in the pursuit of both applead and = basic scientific research. The sience community must devote more time to mending fences between the = competition and practice self discipline out of respect each other. = After all, the forward progress of science is built upon the shoulders = of those that came before. Richard Macaulay ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C5A04F.5B7C4AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: RC = Macaulay
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: Cold Fusion myths

Steve,
 
The list reads well.
 
Suggestions.. the title could as easily be called " Cold Fusion = Facts"=20 rather than " myths" which is negative.. Every opportunity to express = views on=20 CF should be in a 'positive "

Myth # 12  fact can be stated>>>

>Many scientific endeavors are valid but not yet commercially = viable=20 including thermonuclear fusion energy<

Thanks for the good work, dedication, energy and concern you express = in your=20 devotion to sustaining the quest for Cf. Should I ever be of help in any = small=20 way please contact me.

You youngsters never know when your energy and dedication may inspire = some of=20 us old timers ( 78 years and ticking) to press ahead on applied = research. For=20 example ,  we had an interesting technical performance breakthru in = mixing=20 propeller design. Something Frank Grimer posted on Vortex L triggering = my=20 thought process and we modeled a dual 3 blade propeller of UHMW poly = Tivar. It=20 can be described as a combo vena contracta flume throat parallel leading = blade-=20 trailing blade configuration that discharges at the exit of throat with = an exit=20 velocity exceeding the flow across the outside surfaces of the blades = resulting=20 in about 1/3 increase in mixing performance. Testing on a 5HP frame = submersible=20 motor showed a conparison amperage of : Standard propeller running amps = 6.2 amps=20 460 vac 3 ph. and  parallel propeller  6.7 amps @ 460vac 3 = ph. An=20 increase of   1/2 amps for a 1/3 increase in performance is = more than=20 acceptable in industry < grin>.

Perhaps you seldom receive a pat on the back for your work and = dedication..=20 however.. it does not go unrecognized and you never know when your work=20 encoourages others in the pursuit of both applead and basic scientific=20 research.

The sience community must devote more time to mending fences between = the=20 competition and practice self discipline out of respect each other. = After all,=20 the forward progress of science is built upon the shoulders of those = that came=20 before.

Richard Macaulay

------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C5A04F.5B7C4AE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C5A04F.5B7AC440 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c5a079$44400360$d5037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C5A04F.5B7AC440-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 20:09:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7E38p6k007893; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:09:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7E38oW0007886; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:08:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:08:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c5a07d$6f3dbb80$d5037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: CF/HF and the quest Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:08:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5A053.85EF0110"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5A053.85EF0110 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5A053.85EF0110" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5A053.85EF0110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Hot fusion and cold fusion research are actually on parallel = courses and the irony of the horrendous amounts of money devoted to hot = fusion is that it may result in identifying both at the same time. It seems likely that a method of measuring the phenomena will be = conceptualized before the actual form or "event" is identified. The instrument for measuring both hot and cold fusion could be a means = of differential comparison similar in theory to the way an air = comparison picnometer is used for specific gravity. If the phenomena is = a form of " return ", " balancing the equation" or a constant " = recycling" in the change of state between time and light there may be a = way to measure the differential. Time may be the key to the identification. It may be that we must = reconceptualize time as " eternal" in order to get past the obstacles a = misconception of time produces. The fact that time exists is sufficent = evidence of its eternal state. Hanging science on the cliffs of " big = bang" has hindered a generation of science and only resulting in a = cultlike science of astronomy and its stepchild NASA., SETI and the = plains of San Augustine outside of Socorro New Mexico being covered with = an array of giant 'boom boxes" Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5A053.85EF0110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 Hot fusion and cold fusion research are actually on parallel = courses=20 and the irony of the horrendous amounts of money devoted to hot fusion = is that=20 it may  result in identifying both at the same time.
 
It seems likely that a method of measuring the phenomena will be=20 conceptualized before the actual form or "event" is identified.
 
The instrument for measuring both hot and cold fusion could be a = means of=20 differential comparison similar in theory to the way an air comparison=20 picnometer is used for specific gravity.  If the phenomena is = a form=20 of " return ", " balancing the equation" or a constant " recycling" in = the=20 change of state between time and light there may be a way to measure the = differential.
 
 
Time may be the key to the identification. It may be that we must=20 reconceptualize time as " eternal" in order to get past the obstacles a=20 misconception of time produces. The fact that time exists is sufficent = evidence=20 of its eternal state. Hanging science on the cliffs of " big bang" has=20 hindered a generation of science and only resulting in a cultlike = science=20 of astronomy and its stepchild NASA., SETI and the plains of San = Augustine=20 outside of Socorro New Mexico being covered with an array of giant 'boom = boxes"
 
Richard
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5A053.85EF0110-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5A053.85EF0110 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c5a07d$6ec1fbd0$d5037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5A053.85EF0110-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 22:25:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7E5OeUf019191; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:24:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7E5OcTT019171; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:24:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:24:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 00:24:13 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a090$690cf9c0$6401a8c0 eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808105626.044dc010 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7E5OG28019046 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In proper context, the atomic bombs were minor blows to the Japanese. It was more a psychological attack. Only 140K are linked to the bombs directly (from the event) and indirectly (from radiation poisoning). The firebombing raids did more significant damage and loss of life... 3x-5x more deaths and square miles of destruction attributed to those attacks. Those raids specifically targeted the close packed wooden structures of the civilian population. -john -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:06 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima Harry Veeder wrote: >it was based were historically inaccurate. For one thing, the >Smithsonian downplayed the casualties, saying only that the bombs >"caused many tens of thousands of deaths" and that Hiroshima was "a >definite military target." Hiroshima had some of largest army and navy installations in Japan. Nagasaki was and still is one of the largest shipyards in the world. The supertankers I saw under construction there dwarfed the whole downtown area. They built the superbattleship Musashi there, and recently they have constructed gigantic cruiseships, as well as wind turbines and solar cells. >Americans were also told that use of the bombs "led to the immediate >surrender of Japan and made unnecessary the planned invasion of the >Japanese home islands." But it's not that straightforward. Nothing in history a straightforward. >As Tsuyoshi Hasegawa has shown definitively in his new book, "Racing >the >Enemy" - and many other historians have long argued - it was the Soviet >Union's entry into the Pacific war on Aug. 8, two days after the Hiroshima >bombing, that provided the final "shock" that led to Japan's capitulation. That is unquestionably true. Every surviving account of the emperor's counsel emphasizes that the Russian attack was the straw that broke the camel's back. However, whether that alone would have been sufficient, and whether they would have surrendered without the nuclear attacks is impossible to know. The final cabinet vote was a tie -- all of the civilians in favor of surrender, all of the military leaders against it. The emperor broke the tie, voting himself for the first and last time in Japanese history. My guess is that there would have been at least one or two more large battles: one in Kyushu against the US, and one in Hokkaido or Tohoku against the Russians. The Japanese still had a million trained soldiers and ungodly amounts of ammunition and fortified bunkers in Kyushu that would have survived a nuclear attack. (Everyone could see that is where the attack would come.) >The fact is that atomic bomb warning leaflets were dropped on Japanese >cities, but only after Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been destroyed. That is ridiculous. They dropped leaflets continuously, starting in the fall of 1944. It was one of the most effective weapons of the U.S., since the purpose of the bombing was to frighten the civilians and get them to leave the cities and stop weapons production. It worked. >The hard truth is that the atomic bombings were unnecessary. A million >lives were not saved. No one can possibly say how many lives were saved. If the war had dragged on another six months, hundreds of thousands would have starved to death. (Several thousand people starved to death after the surrender, including ~20,000 Japanese P.O.W.s in Southeast Asia, who were half dead when they surrendered.) The invading Russians would have killed hundreds of thousands more, as they did in Manchuria. >The bomb was dropped, as J. Robert Oppenheimer, scientific director of >the Manhattan Project, said in November 1945, on "an essentially >defeated enemy." No one disputes that. The problem was, even though they were defeated they did not want to stop fighting. Roughly 2 million Japanese people had been killed, or 3% of the population. But they might have fought on and lost another 7 million people (10% of the population). During WWII, Germany lost 7 million people (9%) and Russia lost 25.5 million (13%). In the U.S. Civil War, the Union states lost 1.4% of the population and the Confederacy lost 2.5%. There have been wars in modern history in Central America in which half the male population was killed off, and medieval European wars which depopulated entire fiefdoms. >And they used it on Aug. 6 even though they had agreed among themselves >as >they returned home from the Potsdam Conference on Aug. 3 that the Japanese >were looking for peace. They could hardly disagree about that! The Japanese government was sending them cables asking for peace, and they were tapping and decoding the Japanese ambassador's correspondence from Moscow to Tokyo. The only issue was the terms of the peace. The Japanese did not want to surrender their colonies, allow an occupation, war crimes trials, any change in the status of the emperor, or any changes to their constitution or government. (They were willing to surrender their military forces and leave China.) Within days after the bombing, many columnists and opinion makers began to speculate that the real reason the US dropped the bomb was to send a message to Moscow. I have read many of Truman's papers, biographies and the books that he himself wrote and I have not found a one sentence to back this up. Truman described his motivations and actions in detail. If he had felt this way he would have said so. He was a hard-line cold warrior. He did not hesitate to go to war in Korea. There is no question he was willing to sacrifice lives in the fight against communism: American, Koreans and Chinese lives, and Japanese lives too. He summed up his own views about Hiroshima many years after the war with a single sentence, a quote from Macbeth: "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." That seems like an excellent summary to me. That pretty much describes all wars. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 22:42:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7E5fvmd024282; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:42:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7E5funP024272; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:41:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:41:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813223203.0293ece0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:40:41 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Fw: Cold Fusion myths In-Reply-To: <001501c5a079$44c7f810$d5037841 xptower> References: <001501c5a079$44c7f810$d5037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_103375765==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4m5Mq.A.M7F.kmt_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_103375765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:38 PM 8/13/2005, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: RC Macaulay >To: Steve Krivit >Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:15 PM >Subject: Cold Fusion myths > >Steve, > >The list reads well. Hi Richard, thanks for the encouragement and critique, both are appreciated equally. >Suggestions.. the title could as easily be called " Cold Fusion Facts" >rather than " myths" which is negative.. Every opportunity to express >views on CF should be in a 'positive " This list is going into my ICENES paper, under the sub-head "Myths and Facts of Cold Fusion / Condensed Matter Nuclear Science." So I think we are in agreement on this. I'll keep the "myths" because that is part of my communication and awareness strategy for those outside of the cf community. >Myth # 12 fact can be stated>>> > >Many scientific endeavors are valid but not yet commercially viable > including thermonuclear fusion energy< Oh, yes, that's better, thanks. Steve --=====================_103375765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 07:38 PM 8/13/2005, you wrote:
 
----- Original Message -----
From: RC Macaulay
To: Steve Krivit
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: Cold Fusion myths

Steve,
 
The list reads well.

Hi Richard, thanks for the encouragement and critique, both are appreciated equally.


Suggestions.. the title could as easily be called " Cold Fusion Facts" rather than " myths" which is negative.. Every opportunity to express views on CF should be in a 'positive "

This list is going into my ICENES paper, under the sub-head "Myths and Facts of Cold Fusion / Condensed Matter Nuclear Science."
So I think we are in agreement on this. I'll keep the "myths" because that is part of my communication and awareness strategy for those outside of the cf community.


Myth # 12  fact can be stated>>>
>Many scientific endeavors are valid but not yet commercially viable including thermonuclear fusion energy<

Oh, yes, that's better, thanks.

Steve --=====================_103375765==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 13 23:26:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7E6Q83B003411; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:26:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7E6Q5gW003380; Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:26:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:26:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813232119.028e59e0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:24:58 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: cold fusion myths Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_106034078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_106034078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed By the way...Myths and Facts of Cold Fusion / Condensed Matter Nuclear Science is a compilation of my own work and that of Ed Storms, which he wrote for the March 2005 APS meeting. Thanks, Steve --=====================_106034078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
By the way...Myths and Facts of Cold Fusion / Condensed Matter Nuclear Science  is a compilation of my own work and that of Ed Storms, which he wrote for the March 2005 APS meeting.


Thanks,

Steve --=====================_106034078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 03:53:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EAqnrT014201; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:53:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EAql63014178; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:52:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:52:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42FF21BC.8030000 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:49:32 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Cold Fusion myths References: <001501c5a079$44c7f810$d5037841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050813223203.0293ece0@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813223203.0293ece0 mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > At 07:38 PM 8/13/2005, you wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* RC Macaulay >> *To:* Steve Krivit >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:15 PM >> *Subject:* Cold Fusion myths >> >> Steve, >> >> The list reads well. > > > Hi Richard, thanks for the encouragement and critique, both are > appreciated equally. > > >> Suggestions.. the title could as easily be called " Cold Fusion >> Facts" rather than " myths" which is negative.. Every opportunity to >> express views on CF should be in a 'positive " > > > This list is going into my ICENES paper, under the sub-head "Myths and > Facts of Cold Fusion / Condensed Matter Nuclear Science." > So I think we are in agreement on this. I'll keep the "myths" because > that is part of my communication and awareness strategy for those > outside of the cf community. > > >> Myth # 12 fact can be stated>>> >> >Many scientific endeavors are valid but not yet commercially viable >> including thermonuclear fusion energy< > Might I suggest: Myth # 12 fact can be stated>>> Many scientific endeavors are valid but not yet commercially viable including thermonuclear fusion energy, superconducting power storage and quantum computing. > Oh, yes, that's better, thanks. > > Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 04:40:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EBdbt2001260; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 04:39:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EBdZUJ001244; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 04:39:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 04:39:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42FF2D6D.8010002 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:39:25 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cold fusion myths References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > Dear Vorts, > > Would you please take a look at these and provide me with any critique > you may have, and also advise me if I am missing any? > > Feedback within 48 hours will be most useful, though I will also > appreciate feedback at any time. > > http://www.newenergytimes.com/temp/MythsofColdFusion2005.pdf > > I do realize the reproducibility claim can be argued, and I welcome, > and am prepared for such. > > > Thanks, > > Steve > Steven 'Fision facts' dealt with the sme myths a decade ago. Different order, etc. I've added in some of those answers to yours. Can the answers be too long? Myth 1: Cold fusion is "not reproducible," according to Richard Garwin. His definition of a reproducible effect is one that happens “more often than not." Fact 1: In the early 1990's, this was true. As of 2003, cold fusion shows 83% average reproducibility, with some reports of 100% reproducibility. In the early days the semiconductor effect was 'not reproducable' in the sense that Richard Garwin uses yet it was commercialised well before the causes of its unreliability was understood. Myth 5: Cold fusion is false because there are no significant neutrons. According to John Huizenga, “There is no reason to think that the branching ratios would be different for cold fusion” than with hot fusion. Fact 5: Cold Fusion is not a “colder” form of hot fusion. The assumption that cold fusion should follow hot fusion branching ratios is erroneous. Many reactions are aneutronic [no neutrons]. Proton- Lithium fission is one example. Myth 8: Calorimetry is unreliable. Fact 8: If this was true 90% of the data in the chemistry enthalpy tables, the basis of all chemistry calculations, could be wrong! Many calorimeters applied to cold fusion are accurate to ±50 mW. Energy in excess of 1000 mW is frequently measured. Myth 10: Cold fusion “is a simple chemical reaction that has nothing to do with fusion," according to Nathan Lewis of Caltech. Fact 10: Energy generation starts too quickly to result from storage. No specific explanation has been offered that would explain the anomalous heat. The excess heat effect is too large to be of chemical origin. Infrared microscope/ thermographes measure nanoscale hot spots that are hotter than any known chemical heat source. Myth 11: Cold fusion papers have not been published in reputable journals. Fact 11: Over 55 peer-reviewed journals have published cold fusion papers. Are the Fusion Technology journal, the journal of electro-analytical chemistry, Japanese journal of physics, disreputable? /* Check the names of each I may have miss named the latter two. Add two or three more to hammer home the message. The opponants of cold fusion may say YES to this comment. We need them backed into that corner. */ Myth 13: Fleischmann and Pons were incompetent, according to William Happer, Princeton Plasma Physics Lab, and former head, U.S. Dept. of Energy Office of Energy Research. "Just by looking at these guys on television, it was obvious that they were incompetent fools.” Fact 13: A refined image does not necessarily correlate with scientific competency. Fleischmann and Pons were reluctant to go public and say too much. They knew the press would over simplify their claims and Dr Fleischmann thought some things should be classified. Their mix of unease and enthusiasm showed. *Check this with Dr Fleischmann. It's how I read them and I may be wrong. *Myth 14: Fleischmann and Pons were working "outside of their field of expertise," according to John Huizenga. Fact 14: Fleischmann and Pons were among the world's top electrochemists and were experts in their craft and pioneers in a significant new field of science. When a field bridges between fields of expertise, everyone is caught out of their area of expertise. Fully mixed teams of chemists and physicists succeeded best early on and have continued success today. *I'll chase up references on myth 1 and 8 but both are old Hal Fox classics. What this: Now Hal will pop up and tell me I'm wrong! ;-) * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 07:40:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EEeQRL003945; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:40:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EEeOnl003931; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:40:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:40:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.217.8.143] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Another Plug-In Article Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:40:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050814144002.MLMR25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I like this quote: Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism. "The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050814/D8BV9N2G0.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 09:00:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EG07dd003366; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:00:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EFl52E031254; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:47:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:47:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c5a0e7$4f39ba40$d0bcfea9 jb4> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <42FF2D6D.8010002@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: cold fusion myths Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:46:15 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Steven Krivit wrote: > I do realize the reproducibility claim can be argued, and I welcome, > and am prepared for such. Thankfully you realize where the weakest link is already.... the credibility of everything eventually rides on reproducibility by independent laboratories. Reproducibility by a former skeptic would be "icing on the cake" ... There is the possibility that 100% reproducibility has been seen in certain CT experiments (cold transmutation) which brings up the recent request of Kowalski: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/248naming.html He says: "I would very much like to have a non-confusing set of names, for what we are studying....[snip] The name of the entire field should be CANA (chemically assisted nuclear anomalies). The field consist of three distinct sub fields: CF (cold fusion), CT (cold transmutation) and EE (excess energy)...." Can you provide a citation for 100% reproducibility for EE? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 09:58:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EGvlv9029193; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:58:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EGvj7s029179; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:57:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:57:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42FF7849.2050603 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:58:49 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Another Plug-In Article References: <20050814144002.MLMR25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050814144002.MLMR25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is another example of the limited thinking ability of people in the present administration. The fact is that we get most of our oil from Mexico and South America. Even if everyone dove a Prius, the growing use by China would still give countries from which terrorists come more than enough money. If fact, if use dropped too much, Saudi Arabia would suffer civil war and the supply would drop rapidly. The only thing that will stop terrorists is a change in policy toward Israel-Palestine and toward the Arab world in general. However, using less oil would lower the price world-wide and result in less inflation in the US. As long as the people in charge think only in simple terms, nothing will change. Ed Terry Blanton wrote: > I like this quote: > > Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism. > > "The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said. > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050814/D8BV9N2G0.html > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 10:35:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EHYhDa009942; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:34:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EHYgn6009929; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:34:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:34:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.5.242] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: WMAP Says CMB Too Homo for BB Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:34:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050814173420.NUVW25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <6l5e5.A.BbC.yC4_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's not looking good for the BB theory: http://www.physorg.com/news5721.html "If the standard big bang model is correct, that means the microwave radiation from some cool spots would travel through mostly empty space, would be dispersed by the expanding universe and would look small by the time that radiation reached Earth. Radiation from other cool spots, however, would pass around or near massive gravity lenses. These focused spots would appear to be larger than the average cool spot. "But you don't see this fluctuation," said Lieu. "There appear to be no lensing effects whatsoever. This lack of variation is a serious problem." " Rocky Kolb's SLAC presentation with some great slides: http://www-conf.slac.stanford.edu/ssi/2005/lec_notes/Kolb1/default.htm Sarfatti's summary: http://qedcorp.com/APS/zpf2005.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 10:54:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EHrlZ5016448; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:54:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EHrjW1016429; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:53:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:53:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050814105113.0290bc18 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:52:30 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Fw: Cold Fusion myths In-Reply-To: <42FF21BC.8030000 iinet.net.au> References: <001501c5a079$44c7f810$d5037841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050813223203.0293ece0 mail.newenergytimes.com> <42FF21BC.8030000 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Might I suggest: >Myth # 12 fact can be stated>>> >Many scientific endeavors are valid but not yet commercially viable >including thermonuclear fusion energy, superconducting power storage and >quantum computing. Thanks Wesley. I think it will be better if I opt for the "less is more" principle and keep it short and simple, with the single reference to hot fusion. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 11:31:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EIVHfn029822; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:31:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EIVFXO029799; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:31:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:31:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <9713864.1124044259559.JavaMail.root mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:30:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Another Plug-In Article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms writes: "The fact is that we get most of our oil from Mexico and South America. Even if everyone dove a Prius, the growing use by China would still give countries from which terrorists come more than enough money." I disagree. Suppose most Americans drove plug-in hybrids that get hundreds of miles per gallon. That is effectively what they get, since most people commute short distances. (They would also consume coal and uranium, but we have both in huge abundance.) The Chinese would also soon drive plug-in hybrids. So would the Japanese, Europeans and everyone else. The U.S. is the largest market for cars, and once a product is developed for our market, it will be reliable and cheap enough for other markets. Americans commute longer distances than others, so a plug in hybrid for our market would practically eliminate the use of oil in places like Japan and Italy. The overall demand for oil would drop by roughly 60%, and the price would fall to perhaps $20 bbl. The Saudis would need all of their income to pay for their lifestyles, and they would have little or nothing left over to fund terrorists. Even the Prius, circa 1995 technology, could have a dramatic effect on the price and availability of oil. It is true that oil is fungible. If the U.S. merely shifts it source of supply from the Middle East to Mexico without reducing consumption, that will do nothing to reduce terrorism or global warming. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 11:58:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EIvVi9006531; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:57:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EIvUR8006507; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:57:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:57:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007501c5a101$e574bf40$d0bcfea9 jb4> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <9713864.1124044259559.JavaMail.root mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Another Plug-In Article Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:56:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <_cKfxD.A.klB.ZQ5_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > I disagree. Suppose most Americans drove plug-in hybrids that get hundreds of miles per gallon. That is effectively what they get, since most people commute short distances. Yup... up to 250 mpg with the DIY "modded" battery-pak add-on... http://slashdot.org/articles/05/08/14/0147222.shtml?tid=126 Realistically, if half of Americans converted to such vehicles over the next 5 years, hopefully most of them American made (Toyota's #1 quality factory is in Georgetown, Kentucky) then we could eliminate oil imports completely. Impossible, as a marketing strategy, you say ? The present administration - in the so-called "energy policy" is giving away $9 billion in ridiculous tax incentives to an industry already gloating with obscene profits. IF... instead of recklessly giving away 9 billion, we not only switched that money over to hybrid buyers as incentives, but forced the industry to pay the difference - granting incentives of $3000 per vehicle to everyone buying one of these (American made) plug-in hydbrids, then in 5 years, at 10 million new hybrid vehicles per year, we could put half of all commuting Americans in this type car, while at the same time giving a mega-boost to manufacturing jobs in auto manufacturing. While we are on the subject of utopian visions... why not give similar large incentives to all employers who install solar energy systems in their parking lots, for a" free sun-powered" hybrid recharge, while at work? More millions of new jobs for the solar industry. Of course, the CF powered hybrid auto would be nice, as well.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 12:00:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EJ08Kq007684; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:00:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EInTAt003877; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:49:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:49:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.217.2.60] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Hydrogen News Site Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:49:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050814184908.ZLTL3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lots about the gas: http://www.ch2bc.org/index2a.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 12:01:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EJ1FXa008374; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:01:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EJ1DHH008364; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:01:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:01:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050814105643.0295c6f8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:59:59 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: cold fusion myths In-Reply-To: <42FF2D6D.8010002 iinet.net.au> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <42FF2D6D.8010002 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_151330968==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <_UAfD.A.oCC.5T5_CB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_151330968==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello again Wesley... Thanks so much for your thoughtful contributions. I don't know if I'll be able to integrate all of them for this piece. >I've added in some of those answers to yours. Can the answers be too long? Yeah. It's gotta be as direct and succinct as possible. My specific goal is to keep this as lean and simple as possible. My overall goal is not to argue each individual point, but to achieve a single shift in awareness on the part of the reader, such that they may return to a new place of fresh observation and interpretation, and perhaps realize, "Hey, my previous beliefs about cold fusion are significantly out-of-date and wrong." >chemical origin. Infrared microscope/ thermographs measure nanoscale hot >spots that are hotter than any known chemical heat source. This is perfect. I will add it. I think the best reference for this is: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSpolarizedd.pdf . Alternate opinions welcome. >Myth 11: Cold fusion papers have not been published in reputable journals. >Fact 11: Over 55 peer-reviewed journals have published cold fusion papers. >Are the Fusion Technology journal, the journal of electro-analytical >chemistry, Japanese journal of physics, disreputable? /* Umm - I'm not clear what you are saying here. Is this a rhetorical question ? >Check the names of each I may have miss named the latter two. Add two or >three more to hammer home the message. The opponants of cold fusion may >say YES to this comment. We need them backed into that corner. */ Not my style. I don't talk to the "hard-of-hearing." >Myth 13: Fleischmann and Pons were incompetent, according to William >Happer, Princeton >Plasma Physics Lab, and former head, U.S. Dept. of Energy Office of Energy >Research. "Just by >looking at these guys on television, it was obvious that they were >incompetent fools." >Fact 13: A refined image does not necessarily correlate with scientific >competency. Fleischmann and Pons were reluctant to go public and say too >much. They knew the press would over simplify their claims and Dr >Fleischmann thought some things should be classified. Their mix of unease >and enthusiasm showed. Yes, I agree. I am missing something here and will integrate this point. I can tell that you have listened carefully to my two audio recordings of Martin. Cheers, Steve --=====================_151330968==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hello again Wesley...


Thanks so much for your thoughtful contributions. I don't know if I'll be able to integrate all of them for this piece.

>I've added in some of those answers to yours. Can the answers be too long?

Yeah. It's gotta be as direct and succinct as possible. My specific goal is to keep this as lean and simple as possible. My overall goal is not to argue each individual point, but to achieve a single shift in awareness on the part of the reader, such that they may return to a new place of fresh observation and interpretation, and perhaps realize, "Hey, my previous beliefs about cold fusion are significantly out-of-date and wrong."

chemical origin. Infrared microscope/ thermographs measure nanoscale hot spots that are hotter than any known chemical heat source.
This is perfect. I will add it. I think the best reference for this is: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSpolarizedd.pdf . Alternate opinions welcome.


Myth 11: Cold fusion papers have not been published in reputable journals.
Fact 11: Over 55 peer-reviewed journals have published cold fusion papers. Are the Fusion Technology journal, the journal of electro-analytical chemistry, Japanese journal of physics, disreputable? /*
Umm - I'm not clear what you are saying here. Is this a rhetorical question ?

Check the names of each I may have miss named the latter two. Add two or three more to hammer home the message. The opponants of cold fusion may say YES to this comment. We need them backed into that corner. */
Not my style. I don't talk to the "hard-of-hearing." 

Myth 13: Fleischmann and Pons were incompetent, according to William Happer, Princeton
Plasma Physics Lab, and former head, U.S. Dept. of Energy Office of Energy Research. "Just by
looking at these guys on television, it was obvious that they were incompetent fools.”
Fact 13: A refined image does not necessarily correlate with scientific competency. Fleischmann and Pons were reluctant to go public and say too much. They knew the press would over simplify their claims and Dr Fleischmann thought some things should be classified. Their mix of unease and enthusiasm showed.
Yes, I agree. I am missing something here and will integrate this point. I can tell that you have listened carefully to my two audio recordings of Martin.

Cheers,

Steve
--=====================_151330968==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 12:10:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EJAVqn011712; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:10:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EJATOo011692; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:10:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:10:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050814120139.02960af8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:09:28 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: cold fusion myths In-Reply-To: <003401c5a0e7$4f39ba40$d0bcfea9 jb4> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <42FF2D6D.8010002 iinet.net.au> <003401c5a0e7$4f39ba40$d0bcfea9 jb4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jones, >Can you provide a citation for 100% reproducibility for EE? Maybe. But I won't try. It's generally used as a false argument to justify ignoring the field. People who use such arguments (For example, Google Bard on newenergytimes.com) can, and always seem to find another excuse to ignore it. My intent is not to prove cf/cmns, but to bring intelligent, active attention and discussion to the field. If Bard, and others like him, want to continue keeping their heads in the sand, they are free to do so. :) Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 12:31:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EJVEu9019274; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:31:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EJVCUJ019233; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:31:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:31:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:28:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Another Plug-In Article In-reply-to: <9713864.1124044259559.JavaMail.root mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the case of gasoline I wonder if there is a danger that rising prices will boost consumption. The psychology of aggregate demand might work like this: "Since gasoline will cost more in the future, it is better to buy more today. BUT, with more in our tank, we can drive further! In other words, from a macroeconomic standpoint does the fullness of the aggregate tank determine the rate of consumption of gas more than the price of gas? Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms writes: > > "The fact is that we get most of our oil from > Mexico and South America. Even if everyone dove a Prius, the growing > use by China would still give countries from which terrorists come more > than enough money." > > I disagree. Suppose most Americans drove plug-in hybrids that get hundreds of > miles per gallon. That is effectively what they get, since most people commute > short distances. (They would also consume coal and uranium, but we have both > in huge abundance.) The Chinese would also soon drive plug-in hybrids. So > would the Japanese, Europeans and everyone else. The U.S. is the largest > market for cars, and once a product is developed for our market, it will be > reliable and cheap enough for other markets. Americans commute longer > distances than others, so a plug in hybrid for our market would practically > eliminate the use of oil in places like Japan and Italy. The overall demand > for oil would drop by roughly 60%, and the price would fall to perhaps $20 > bbl. The Saudis would need all of their income to pay for their lifestyles, > and they would have little or nothing left over to fund terrorists. > > Even the Prius, circa 1995 technology, could have a dramatic effect on the > price and availability of oil. > > It is true that oil is fungible. If the U.S. merely shifts it source of supply > from the Middle East to Mexico without reducing consumption, that will do > nothing to reduce terrorism or global warming. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 12:39:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EJcp0q022242; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:39:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EJcoax022220; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:38:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:38:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050814153302.04dcc0a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:38:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: cold fusion myths In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Myth 1: Cold fusion is 'not reproducible,' according to Richard Garwin. His definition of a reproducible effect is one that happens 'more often than not.'" That is a preposterous definition for "reproducible." If something happens infrequently, that makes it difficult to reproduce, not irreproducible. Countless phenomena in physics, biology, engineering and other disciplines are difficult to reproduce. Transistor reproducibility for some devices used to be 10% or less. Cloning typically works less than 0.1% of the time. But nobody ever claimed that transistors or cloning are not reproducible. Garwin is making up rules as he goes along. He is moving the goalposts. This rule has never been applied to any scientific finding before cold fusion, and it will never be heard of again. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 12:42:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EJg3UG024689; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:42:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EJg2Do024679; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:42:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:42:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c5a108$30adbd30$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <20050814144002.MLMR25678.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Yet Another Plug-In Article Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:41:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg Sunday August 14, 4:23 am ET By Tim Molloy, Associated Press Writer Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars to Squeeze Extra Energy Out of Them, Boost Gas Mileage Up to 250 CORTE MADERA, Calif. (AP) -- Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage. It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret -- a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel. Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car. Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb -- all for about a quarter. He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg. They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling. And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too. So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them. "They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy." The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg. "The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference." Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power. Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price. But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids -- and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones. Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message. Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former CIA director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence. Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism. "The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said. DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available. Others are modifying hybrids, too. Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said. University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban. Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag. Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations. "They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially." CalCars Initiative: http://calcars.org http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050814/hybrid_tinkerers.html?.v=4 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 13:00:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7EK07sQ030501; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:00:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7EJufMI029113; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:56:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:56:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050814154754.04dc5cb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:56:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Another Plug-In Article In-Reply-To: References: <9713864.1124044259559.JavaMail.root mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >In the case of gasoline I wonder if there is a danger that rising prices >will boost consumption. > >The psychology of aggregate demand might work like this: > >"Since gasoline will cost more in the future, it is better to buy more >today. BUT, with more in our tank, we can drive further! > >In other words, from a macroeconomic standpoint does the fullness of the >aggregate tank determine the rate of consumption of gas more than the price >of gas? I doubt this would cause a measurable problem. However, in the 1973 gas crisis, similar behavior did cause a measurable but short-lived problem. People lined up at gas stations and waited for a long time. Some of them left their engines idling. Other people filled up frequently, even when the tank was mostly full, which again caused long lines. This kind of idiotic behavior usually does not last for long. It was caused by shortages, not high prices. People are not going to line up for high priced gasoline. I can imagine one scenario in which this behavior might occur: hyperinflation. This would affect not only gasoline but everything else. In Japan after World War II, the prices of food and other goods sometimes increased several percent per day. There was a popular song on the radio about riding the train and finding the cost of oranges higher at every station. If something like this happens people will buy up everything they can find before the money becomes worthless, and they will hoard goods. Since oil is used to produce just about every product on earth, if the price of oil suddenly jumps to several hundred dollars per barrel we probably will see hyperinflation. This could happen in the event of a major catastrophe in the Middle East, such as a revolution, war, nuclear attack on the Saudi oil fields, or something similar. I think it is entirely possible, but not likely. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 14:12:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7ELBrKe020457; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:12:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7ELBpxd020444; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:11:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:11:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050814163921.04562e60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:11:26 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima In-Reply-To: <000001c5a090$690cf9c0$6401a8c0 eDentsply.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050808105626.044dc010 pop.mindspring.com> <000001c5a090$690cf9c0$6401a8c0 eDentsply.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >In proper context, the atomic bombs were minor blows to the Japanese. It >was more a psychological attack. Only 140K are linked to the bombs directly >(from the event) and indirectly (from radiation poisoning). *ONLY* 140,000 people?!? Only? That's an outrageous choice of words. Furthermore, it is wrong. The damage was crippling. Two major cities were wiped out, including some of the largest factories and military bases. And the U.S. announced it would continue dropping bombs. That was no idle threat. Contrary to some of the history books from the 1960s and 70s, many more bombs were in the pipeline. The next bomb was ready in about two weeks, and a dozen more were scheduled to be "deployed" (dropped) by the end of the year. As soon as MacArthur's people found out the bomb existed, a few hours after Hiroshima, they began revising their invasion plans. They decided to drop three or four on the beaches of Shikoku just prior to the invasion. Some of the early firebomb attacks on Tokyo killed about as many people as the atomic bombs, but that was because the civilians did not know how to respond, and the government tried to keep them from fleeing. After two or three raids the fatality rate dropped from ~100,000 per attack to a few thousand. People quickly learned to get out of the way when the air raid sirens went off, an hour before the attack. Most Japanese cities were small, and an able-bodied person could flee to the surrounding mountains and rivers on foot within an hour. You cannot get out of the way of a nuclear bomb, and there could be no advanced air raid warnings. They could warn people when thousands of airplanes were approaching, but nuclear bombs were dropped by groups of three airplanes, and such small groups were coming over Japan in many places every day for one purpose or another (mainly surveillance and mapping). When the bombing began millions of people defied government orders and fled to the countryside, abandoning their houses, possessions, and jobs. This brought production to a halt, which was the whole idea of the bombing. The U.S. encouraged this by dropping leaflets warning people to leave. The Japanese government discouraged it by cutting off people's rations when they left their assigned jobs, and by torturing and beating people to death. Much of the population of Hiroshima had evacuated, fortunately. In my opinion, the conventional and nuclear bombs, and the property damage they wrought, was entirely the moral responsibility of the United States. I do not see how anyone can argue with that. It was possible to carry out war without direct attacks on civilians, by confining attacks to military targets and by blockading. When the conventional bombing attacks began, many prominent Americans, including some prominent military leaders, decried them as morally wrong and ineffective. It is difficult to judge whether they were necessary and effective. While I have no doubt the U.S. was morally responsible for the damage, the fact that these attacks killed civilians was entirely the fault of the Japanese government. Since the Japanese government could do nothing to prevent the attacks, it should have made every effort to evacuate the people. In England and Germany the governments organized evacuations and the casualty rate was lower. Full Disclosure: Some of my future relatives and in-laws were killed or wounded in Hiroshima, including one who was a soldier in the Hiroshima army base. (Contrary to some antiwar revisionist history, this military base was huge, and it was smack in the middle of the city.) Other relatives were on the American side and probably would have been killed in the invasion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 18:35:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7F1ZR7S017900; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:35:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7F1ZKjB017858; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:35:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:35:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050814182530.0296d328 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:34:15 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: cold fusion myths In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050814153302.04dcc0a0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050814153302.04dcc0a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_174987687==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_174987687==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:38 PM 8/14/2005, you wrote: >"Myth 1: Cold fusion is 'not reproducible,' according to Richard Garwin. >His definition of a reproducible effect is one that happens 'more often >than not.'" > >That is a preposterous definition for "reproducible." If something happens >infrequently, that makes it difficult to reproduce, not irreproducible. > >Countless phenomena in physics, biology, engineering and other disciplines >are difficult to reproduce. Transistor reproducibility for some devices >used to be 10% or less. Cloning typically works less than 0.1% of the >time. But nobody ever claimed that transistors or cloning are not >reproducible. Garwin is making up rules as he goes along. He is moving the >goalposts. This rule has never been applied to any scientific finding >before cold fusion, and it will never be heard of again. Yes. Of course. He's in a bit of a pickle, you see. He wrote a report in 1993 about EPRI's cold fusion work (I will publish this next month in New Energy Times with EPRI's permission, but not Garwin's permission) that indicated he observed data which supported claims of excess heat. He was unable to find any source of error responsible for the EH. His report was supposed to be a private report to the Pentagon and EPRI. Now I come a long and post images of it to the web in 2003. I spoke to him about this in 2004. He didn't give me the pleasure of telling me he was unhappy with my action, but he said he was "surprised." Surprised indeed, so am I. How much courage does it take to publicly say, "maybe, just maybe there is something to cold fusion?" Apparently more than Garwin has. Steven B. Krivit Editor, New Energy Times Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc. NEW ENERGY TIMES Your best source for cold fusion news and information. 11664 National Blvd. Suite 142 Los Angeles, California, USA 90064 www.newenergytimes.com Cell phone: (310) 721-5919 Office Phone: (310) 470-8189 Fax: (432) 577-3630 --=====================_174987687==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 12:38 PM 8/14/2005, you wrote:
"Myth 1: Cold fusion is 'not reproducible,' according to Richard Garwin. His definition of a reproducible effect is one that happens 'more often than not.'"

That is a preposterous definition for "reproducible." If something happens infrequently, that makes it difficult to reproduce, not irreproducible.

Countless phenomena in physics, biology, engineering and other disciplines are difficult to reproduce. Transistor reproducibility for some devices used to be 10% or less. Cloning typically works less than 0.1% of the time. But nobody ever claimed that transistors or cloning are not reproducible. Garwin is making up rules as he goes along. He is moving the goalposts. This rule has never been applied to any scientific finding before cold fusion, and it will never be heard of again.


Yes. Of course. He's in a bit of a pickle, you see.

He wrote a report in 1993 about EPRI's cold fusion work (I will publish this next month in New Energy Times with EPRI's permission, but not Garwin's permission) that indicated he observed data which supported claims of excess heat. He was unable to find any source of error responsible for the EH. His report was supposed to be a private report to the Pentagon and EPRI.

Now I come a long and post images of it to the web in 2003. I spoke to him about this in 2004. He didn't give me the pleasure of telling me he was unhappy with my action, but he said he was "surprised."

Surprised indeed, so am I.  How much courage does it take to publicly say, "maybe, just maybe there is something to cold fusion?"

Apparently more than Garwin has.


Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
NEW ENERGY TIMES
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
www.newenergytimes.com
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (432) 577-3630
--=====================_174987687==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 18:55:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7F1t5K9028947; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:55:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7F1t2SA028919; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:55:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:55:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050814184904.0295da90 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:53:56 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: the academic view on cf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Vorts, Go here and click on the RED PILL http://newenergytimes.com/students/ Then please tell me if you can point me to other, equally out-of-date collegiate references to CF. I would like to start collect these before they re-write. My goal is to preserve a historical record of how pervasive the big myth of CF is/was in academia. I'm specifically looking for formal, academic references, not blogs or pseudoskeptic Web sites. Thanks, S From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 22:59:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7F5wWiG007306; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:58:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7F5wUPD007289; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:58:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:58:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD4BA caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Supernatural Minds Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:46:38 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This looks like an interesting new site. http://www.supernaturalminds.com/ John Rudiger Perth WA Ph:- 08 9232 7150 Fax:- 08 9232 7155 Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 04:27:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FBR33Q018755; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:27:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FBQu9B018585; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:26:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:26:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43007BF3.5000407 iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:26:43 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: cold fusion myths References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050813170922.02925bb8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <42FF2D6D.8010002@iinet.net.au> <6.2.0.14.2.20050814105643.0295c6f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050814105643.0295c6f8 mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > Hello again Wesley... > > > Thanks so much for your thoughtful contributions. I don't know if I'll > be able to integrate all of them for this piece. > > >I've added in some of those answers to yours. Can the answers be too > long? > > Yeah. It's gotta be as direct and succinct as possible. My specific > goal is to keep this as lean and simple as possible. My overall goal > is not to argue each individual point, but to achieve a single shift > in awareness on the part of the reader, such that they may return to a > new place of fresh observation and interpretation, and perhaps > realize, "Hey, my previous beliefs about cold fusion are significantly > out-of-date and wrong." > >> chemical origin. *Infrared microscope/ thermographs measure nanoscale >> hot spots that are hotter than any known chemical heat source.* > > This is perfect. I will add it. I think the best reference for this > is: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSpolarizedd.pdf . Alternate > opinions welcome. > > No go with that reference. >> Myth 11: Cold fusion papers have not been published in reputable >> journals. >> Fact 11: Over 55 peer-reviewed journals have published cold fusion >> papers. Are the Fusion Technology journal, the journal of >> electro-analytical chemistry, Japanese journal of physics, >> disreputable? /* > > Umm - I'm not clear what you are saying here. Is this a rhetorical > question ? > yes very rhetorical to the point of ironic. >> Check the names of each I may have miss named the latter two. Add two >> or three more to hammer home the message. The opponants of cold >> fusion may say YES to this comment. We need them backed into that >> corner. */ > > Not my style. I don't talk to the "hard-of-hearing." > >> Myth 13: Fleischmann and Pons were incompetent, according to William >> Happer, Princeton >> Plasma Physics Lab, and former head, U.S. Dept. of Energy Office of >> Energy Research. "Just by >> looking at these guys on television, it was obvious that they were >> incompetent fools.” >> Fact 13: A refined image does not necessarily correlate with >> scientific competency. Fleischmann and Pons were reluctant to go >> public and say too much. They knew the press would over simplify >> their claims and Dr Fleischmann thought some things should be >> classified. Their mix of unease and enthusiasm showed. > > Yes, I agree. I am missing something here and will integrate this > point. I can tell that you have listened carefully to my two audio > recordings of Martin. > > Cheers, > > Steve Good luck. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 09:22:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FGMKOW000550; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:22:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FGM8ae000466; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:22:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:22:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Siberian Peat Bog Melting Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:21:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050815162146.CROS8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More alarming news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4141348.stm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 10:21:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FHKNci002593; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:20:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FHKLk2002542; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:20:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:19:41 -0500 Message-ID: <000101c5a1bd$90884df0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050814163921.04562e60 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7FHK43Y002386 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, you are right. "only 140k" is a rather insensitive way to put it... my apologies. Any loss of life is significant. Without belittling these horrific events further, all I was trying to point out is the A-bombs get far more credit in history than they should. Statistically, the human loss only accounted for around 7% of the total war losses estimated for Japan. I am unable to find it (now that I am looking for it) but I wrote a hard copy military strategy paper on it back in the mid-80s that has actual numbers and references (I apologize that I am working mostly from memory at the moment). The analysis was regarding the effectiveness of attacks of varying sophistication and technology in WW2 (Japan was just one the theaters reviewed). One thing that investigation did show was how much greater impact the fire bomb attacks had on the military industrial complex... not just the collateral aspects, but the critical workforce aspects needed to make it functional. Losses were much greater... 3-500k. Essentially this is the backbone of terrorist strategy today around the world (not my paper, but similar analysis by others with a more diabolical intent). Net loss is not the plan, high visibility and high psychological impact opportunities are... iconic assaults that make compelling pictures for the evening news to stampede the herd. The A-bomb attacks of WW2 fit in that category. Yes, it is very easy to sit here and type such things in a very cold, dispassionate, and unconnected way. Again, my apologies if I offend anyone. There is no compassion in statistics or strategy. -john -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:11 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: [OT] The myths of Hiroshima John Steck wrote: >In proper context, the atomic bombs were minor blows to the Japanese. >It was more a psychological attack. Only 140K are linked to the bombs >directly (from the event) and indirectly (from radiation poisoning). *ONLY* 140,000 people?!? Only? That's an outrageous choice of words. Furthermore, it is wrong. The damage was crippling. Two major cities were wiped out, including some of the largest factories and military bases. And the U.S. announced it would continue dropping bombs. That was no idle threat. Contrary to some of the history books from the 1960s and 70s, many more bombs were in the pipeline. The next bomb was ready in about two weeks, and a dozen more were scheduled to be "deployed" (dropped) by the end of the year. As soon as MacArthur's people found out the bomb existed, a few hours after Hiroshima, they began revising their invasion plans. They decided to drop three or four on the beaches of Shikoku just prior to the invasion. Some of the early firebomb attacks on Tokyo killed about as many people as the atomic bombs, but that was because the civilians did not know how to respond, and the government tried to keep them from fleeing. After two or three raids the fatality rate dropped from ~100,000 per attack to a few thousand. People quickly learned to get out of the way when the air raid sirens went off, an hour before the attack. Most Japanese cities were small, and an able-bodied person could flee to the surrounding mountains and rivers on foot within an hour. You cannot get out of the way of a nuclear bomb, and there could be no advanced air raid warnings. They could warn people when thousands of airplanes were approaching, but nuclear bombs were dropped by groups of three airplanes, and such small groups were coming over Japan in many places every day for one purpose or another (mainly surveillance and mapping). When the bombing began millions of people defied government orders and fled to the countryside, abandoning their houses, possessions, and jobs. This brought production to a halt, which was the whole idea of the bombing. The U.S. encouraged this by dropping leaflets warning people to leave. The Japanese government discouraged it by cutting off people's rations when they left their assigned jobs, and by torturing and beating people to death. Much of the population of Hiroshima had evacuated, fortunately. In my opinion, the conventional and nuclear bombs, and the property damage they wrought, was entirely the moral responsibility of the United States. I do not see how anyone can argue with that. It was possible to carry out war without direct attacks on civilians, by confining attacks to military targets and by blockading. When the conventional bombing attacks began, many prominent Americans, including some prominent military leaders, decried them as morally wrong and ineffective. It is difficult to judge whether they were necessary and effective. While I have no doubt the U.S. was morally responsible for the damage, the fact that these attacks killed civilians was entirely the fault of the Japanese government. Since the Japanese government could do nothing to prevent the attacks, it should have made every effort to evacuate the people. In England and Germany the governments organized evacuations and the casualty rate was lower. Full Disclosure: Some of my future relatives and in-laws were killed or wounded in Hiroshima, including one who was a soldier in the Hiroshima army base. (Contrary to some antiwar revisionist history, this military base was huge, and it was smack in the middle of the city.) Other relatives were on the American side and probably would have been killed in the invasion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 10:21:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FHKO5h002604; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:20:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FHKKYo002516; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:20:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:20:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:19:41 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a1bd$8ebc1970$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007501c5a101$e574bf40$d0bcfea9 jb4> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7FHK1aK002364 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok, am I the only one that sees this? Plug-in only shifts us to more pollution and hazardous by-product creating power generation... specifically coal and atomic. Cleaner at the duplex outlet end but much much dirtier at the source. As much as the technology is vilified, ICEs can be configured to run very clean (especially under non-variable operating conditions). Gas hybrids are an ideal configuration. What is truly needed is petrol alternatives to run in the gas hybrids. Our 'dependence' on foreign oil is nothing more than the US propping up the world economy. Call it region stabilizing foreign aide, hush money, or ransom if that helps. It is the entire reason for automotive and oil industry subsidies and the suppression of viable OU devices. Those oil $ have strategic influence. The technology exists, it has existed for 50+ years. Not one will EVER be allowed to see large scale commercialization until new influences can replace the old. High fuel costs are necessary to allow the *gradual* transition away from our petrol-economy. Alternatives just are not cost effective until gas is $3/gal + in the US. A critical number of Americans did not care about fuel economy until gas hit $2/gal. Hybrids are just baby steps into the future (until the US consumer starts realizing the maintenance & repair costs to keep those complex systems running outweigh the fuel savings). BTW, has anyone else noticed the MPG on a standard / non-hybrid Toyota Corolla? 30/38 mpg for automatic 32/41 mpg for manual. Not bad for standard technology in a reasonably sized 4-door sedan IMO. -john -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 1:57 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Another Plug-In Article ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > I disagree. Suppose most Americans drove plug-in hybrids that get hundreds of miles per gallon. That is effectively what they get, since most people commute short distances. Yup... up to 250 mpg with the DIY "modded" battery-pak add-on... http://slashdot.org/articles/05/08/14/0147222.shtml?tid=126 Realistically, if half of Americans converted to such vehicles over the next 5 years, hopefully most of them American made (Toyota's #1 quality factory is in Georgetown, Kentucky) then we could eliminate oil imports completely. Impossible, as a marketing strategy, you say ? The present administration - in the so-called "energy policy" is giving away $9 billion in ridiculous tax incentives to an industry already gloating with obscene profits. IF... instead of recklessly giving away 9 billion, we not only switched that money over to hybrid buyers as incentives, but forced the industry to pay the difference - granting incentives of $3000 per vehicle to everyone buying one of these (American made) plug-in hydbrids, then in 5 years, at 10 million new hybrid vehicles per year, we could put half of all commuting Americans in this type car, while at the same time giving a mega-boost to manufacturing jobs in auto manufacturing. While we are on the subject of utopian visions... why not give similar large incentives to all employers who install solar energy systems in their parking lots, for a" free sun-powered" hybrid recharge, while at work? More millions of new jobs for the solar industry. Of course, the CF powered hybrid auto would be nice, as well.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 10:26:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FHPbCA005861; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:25:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FHPZeJ005840; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:25:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:25:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815131737.0459fd00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:25:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Jones' evaluation of Fleischmann Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12866500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_12866500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is not important, but I mentioned that I thought this paper is "inaccurate:" Jones, S.E., Chasing anomalous signals: the cold fusion question. Accountability Res., 2000. 8: p. 55. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/JonesSEchasingano.pdf That was unfair of me. Here I am criticizing Jones for offering only opinions, and I myself offer mere opinion. I have discussed this paper many times, but if the readers here would like to know the details I can reiterate some of the reasons why Fleischmann and I disagree with Jones. The paper in question by Flieschmann is here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmancalorimetra.pdf I expect the readers here have heard quite enough of that debate. - Jed --=====================_12866500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This is not important, but I mentioned that I thought this paper is "inaccurate:" Jones, S.E., Chasing anomalous signals: the cold fusion question. Accountability Res., 2000. 8: p. 55. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/JonesSEchasingano.pdf

That was unfair of me. Here I am criticizing Jones for offering only opinions, and I myself offer mere opinion. I have discussed this paper many times, but if the readers here would like to know the details I can reiterate some of the reasons why Fleischmann and I disagree with Jones.

The paper in question by Flieschmann is here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmancalorimetra.pdf


I expect the readers here have heard quite enough of that debate.

- Jed
--=====================_12866500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 10:32:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FHW3f3008623; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:32:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FHW2oO008606; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:32:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:32:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815133019.0431c350 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:31:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jones' evaluation of Fleischmann In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815131737.0459fd00 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815131737.0459fd00 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oops. Wrong forum. That message was intended for another discussion group, CMNS. The people here REALLY have had enough of Jones versus Fleischmann! Way too much. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 10:53:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FHqmWe017949; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:53:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FHqiBd017916; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:52:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:52:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815133400.037687b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:52:05 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article In-Reply-To: <000001c5a1bd$8ebc1970$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> References: <007501c5a101$e574bf40$d0bcfea9 jb4> <000001c5a1bd$8ebc1970$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0E2FGB.A.4XE.rZNADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >Ok, am I the only one that sees this? > >Plug-in only shifts us to more pollution and hazardous by-product creating >power generation... specifically coal and atomic. That is incorrect for several reasons, mainly: 1. About a third of our electric power comes from clean sources such as hydroelectricity, wind power and renewable biofuel. (I have often ranted about how bad ethanol is. It should be noted that the direct use of biofuel to generate electricity is far more efficient, and it often reduces pollution.) 2. Electric cars are two or three times more efficient than gasoline ICE-only, and with a modern electric power generator they are more efficient than hybrid cars. 3. Power plant pollution is easier to control because power plants produce "point source" pollution, and they are the responsibility of one corporation with one phone number. Automobiles which are spread out all of the map and owned by millions of individuals. Also it should be noted that despite the problems with uranium, many people including me would much prefer to live next to uranium plant than a coal burning plant. There is no question that the widespread use of uranium fission would reduce the threat of global warming. Coal burning plants kill at least 20,000 people in the US alone, whereas during the last 60 years U.S. civilian fission plants have killed only a few thousand people, if you count people killed by pollution from uranium mining. This pollution has been greatly reduced. >Cleaner at the duplex outlet end but much much dirtier at the source. Much cleaner at the source. >Hybrids are just baby steps into the future >(until the US consumer starts realizing the maintenance & repair costs to >keep those complex systems running outweigh the fuel savings). The maintenance and repair costs for production line hybrid cars is not significantly higher than for regular cars. I know this for a fact, because as it happens, at Ed Storm's recommendation I recently purchased a Prius hybrid. Before I did that, I asked both the dealer and my car insurance agent about maintenance and repair costs. Toyota offers the same warranty coverage for the Prius as for their other cars. For $2,000 they offer an extended maintenance contract that covers virtually everything for 10 years or 100,000 miles. Insurance companies charge only a little more for accident coverage. If these cars cost far more to maintain and repair, Toyota and Allstate would already be losing their shirts, since there are hundreds of thousands of these cars in use worldwide. I think Mr. Steck should fact check his statement little more carefully. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 11:35:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FIYPTN004152; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:34:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FIYMED004133; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:34:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:34:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815141808.04580950 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:33:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Problems with paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The "style" formatting of this paper is hopelessly messed up. I cannot convert it to Acrobat. I will reformat the entire thing starting from scratch and send you a new version. That will not take long. However, my version may be slightly incompatible with your Mac. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 11:42:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FIg0i6008196; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:42:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FIfsLD008155; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:41:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:41:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815143945.0458aab0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:41:30 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Problems with paper In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815141808.04580950 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815141808.04580950 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OOPS again!!! That was supposed to be a private message. I think maybe there is something haywire with my Eudora program, or I am not paying close attention. Maybe too much voice input. It is embarrassing, but no harm done. I never say anything in e-mail that I would be ashamed to say in a public forum. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 12:00:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FIxtQs016767; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:00:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FIxn1p016703; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:59:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:59:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vhmp$160bhc2 mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,108,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1275446658:sNHT14437540" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: CNN: Tinkerers fiddle with hybrids to increase efficiency Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:59:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html or http://tinyurl.com/7hmem Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 13:31:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FKUWOc027753; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:30:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FKULDP027655; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:30:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:30:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:29:55 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Aluminium Battery Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm thinking that there might be a nitch market for Aluminium Batteries and electric motors that can be bolted in to transmissions of existing heavy vehicles. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 14:11:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FLAiod012435; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:11:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FLAhft012416; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:10:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:10:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43010516.50809 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:11:50 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CNN: Tinkerers fiddle with hybrids to increase efficiency References: <48vhmp$160bhc2 mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <48vhmp$160bhc2 mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When these people claim to get 250 miles/gal using a modified Prius, what they really mean is that they get 45 miles/gal plus 205 extra miles because they charge the batteries from the electric grid. This is much different from claiming that the Prius can be made more efficient just by adding extra batteries. Using this logic, a pure electric car would get an infinite number of miles/gal. Consequently, the quoted miles/gal actually has no meaning. Regards, Ed orionworks charter.net wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/7hmem > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 14:15:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FLEg7T014172; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:14:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FLEeKc014142; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:14:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:14:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:14:04 -0500 Message-ID: <000301c5a1de$4cf678c0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815133400.037687b0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7FLENDq014070 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think Mr. Rothwell should do his own fact checking. In short, All electric vehicles will not reduce pollution, just shift it out of urban areas to more harmful types. Not sure why everyone thinks that is better. The additional electric demand burden of replacing 20% of passenger vehicles would put a substantial demand on current electric generation plants. Alternatives, renewables, and atomics will not fill the gap in time (if ever), leaving our friend Mr. Coal to pick up the slack by processing an estimated 38 million extra tons per year. http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/DOE/DOE_reports/pb83/pb83_126094/pb83_126094_ sec07.pdf EV cars are not less expensive to buy or operate. The cars cost more up front, the parts cost more when they break or when in accidents, insurance cost more, and complex electromechanical systems require specialized technicians who cost more per hour. As a car class, their resale value is yet to be benchmarked, their true service life unknown. MPG savings will not offset cost of ownership. EV's are a green choice, not a financial one. http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/103708/article.html BTW, since Yucca Mountain doesn't look like it's going to be done for a while and you seem to have a preference to live next door to a uranium plant, mind if we store a few thousand harmless spent rods in your back yard? We only have over 54,000 metric tones of it now in the US.... Nah, didn't think so. http://www.ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/04dec/RS22001.pdf -john -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 12:52 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article John Steck wrote: >Ok, am I the only one that sees this? > >Plug-in only shifts us to more pollution and hazardous by-product >creating power generation... specifically coal and atomic. That is incorrect for several reasons, mainly: 1. About a third of our electric power comes from clean sources such as hydroelectricity, wind power and renewable biofuel. (I have often ranted about how bad ethanol is. It should be noted that the direct use of biofuel to generate electricity is far more efficient, and it often reduces pollution.) 2. Electric cars are two or three times more efficient than gasoline ICE-only, and with a modern electric power generator they are more efficient than hybrid cars. 3. Power plant pollution is easier to control because power plants produce "point source" pollution, and they are the responsibility of one corporation with one phone number. Automobiles which are spread out all of the map and owned by millions of individuals. Also it should be noted that despite the problems with uranium, many people including me would much prefer to live next to uranium plant than a coal burning plant. There is no question that the widespread use of uranium fission would reduce the threat of global warming. Coal burning plants kill at least 20,000 people in the US alone, whereas during the last 60 years U.S. civilian fission plants have killed only a few thousand people, if you count people killed by pollution from uranium mining. This pollution has been greatly reduced. >Cleaner at the duplex outlet end but much much dirtier at the source. Much cleaner at the source. >Hybrids are just baby steps into the future >(until the US consumer starts realizing the maintenance & repair costs >to keep those complex systems running outweigh the fuel savings). The maintenance and repair costs for production line hybrid cars is not significantly higher than for regular cars. I know this for a fact, because as it happens, at Ed Storm's recommendation I recently purchased a Prius hybrid. Before I did that, I asked both the dealer and my car insurance agent about maintenance and repair costs. Toyota offers the same warranty coverage for the Prius as for their other cars. For $2,000 they offer an extended maintenance contract that covers virtually everything for 10 years or 100,000 miles. Insurance companies charge only a little more for accident coverage. If these cars cost far more to maintain and repair, Toyota and Allstate would already be losing their shirts, since there are hundreds of thousands of these cars in use worldwide. I think Mr. Steck should fact check his statement little more carefully. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 14:31:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FLUsDs020991; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:31:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FLUpR6020973; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:30:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:30:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:30:26 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509BEF1FB CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Another Plug-In Article Thread-Index: AcWh3nZFA4wxjszNTpybjjmOLb72bwAAID+Q From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2005 21:30:37.0952 (UTC) FILETIME=[941BC000:01C5A1E0] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7FLUYqx020808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't find the negatives expressed about electric vehicles to be credible. First, we have plenty of excess generation capacity going to waste at off peak hours. Utilities would love to sell juice at 4am to anybody who can use It. Secondly, given the likely development of electric sources like solar cells and Stirling engines, we may not have to burn more coal. The problem with this development has been how to use the electricity for transportation, which is the biggest issue in regard to trade deficits and terrorists. Third, any new technology is expensive until the manufacturing equipment brings the cost down. I can recall outright disbelief that VCRs would ever cost less than $200 each because it cost so much to make the heads. History has proved otherwise. As I understand it, the per mile costs of a EV car ( not hybrid) can be very low - downright cheap. The whole problem is the battery. Fix that and the whole world changes. -----Original Message----- From: John Steck [mailto:johnsteck tetrahelix.com] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:14 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article I think Mr. Rothwell should do his own fact checking. In short, All electric vehicles will not reduce pollution, just shift it out of urban areas to more harmful types. Not sure why everyone thinks that is better. The additional electric demand burden of replacing 20% of passenger vehicles would put a substantial demand on current electric generation plants. Alternatives, renewables, and atomics will not fill the gap in time (if ever), leaving our friend Mr. Coal to pick up the slack by processing an estimated 38 million extra tons per year. http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/DOE/DOE_reports/pb83/pb83_126094/pb83_126 094_ sec07.pdf EV cars are not less expensive to buy or operate. The cars cost more up front, the parts cost more when they break or when in accidents, insurance cost more, and complex electromechanical systems require specialized technicians who cost more per hour. As a car class, their resale value is yet to be benchmarked, their true service life unknown. MPG savings will not offset cost of ownership. EV's are a green choice, not a financial one. http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/103708/article.htm l BTW, since Yucca Mountain doesn't look like it's going to be done for a while and you seem to have a preference to live next door to a uranium plant, mind if we store a few thousand harmless spent rods in your back yard? We only have over 54,000 metric tones of it now in the US.... Nah, didn't think so. http://www.ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/04dec/RS22001.pdf -john -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 12:52 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article John Steck wrote: >Ok, am I the only one that sees this? > >Plug-in only shifts us to more pollution and hazardous by-product >creating power generation... specifically coal and atomic. That is incorrect for several reasons, mainly: 1. About a third of our electric power comes from clean sources such as hydroelectricity, wind power and renewable biofuel. (I have often ranted about how bad ethanol is. It should be noted that the direct use of biofuel to generate electricity is far more efficient, and it often reduces pollution.) 2. Electric cars are two or three times more efficient than gasoline ICE-only, and with a modern electric power generator they are more efficient than hybrid cars. 3. Power plant pollution is easier to control because power plants produce "point source" pollution, and they are the responsibility of one corporation with one phone number. Automobiles which are spread out all of the map and owned by millions of individuals. Also it should be noted that despite the problems with uranium, many people including me would much prefer to live next to uranium plant than a coal burning plant. There is no question that the widespread use of uranium fission would reduce the threat of global warming. Coal burning plants kill at least 20,000 people in the US alone, whereas during the last 60 years U.S. civilian fission plants have killed only a few thousand people, if you count people killed by pollution from uranium mining. This pollution has been greatly reduced. >Cleaner at the duplex outlet end but much much dirtier at the source. Much cleaner at the source. >Hybrids are just baby steps into the future >(until the US consumer starts realizing the maintenance & repair costs >to keep those complex systems running outweigh the fuel savings). The maintenance and repair costs for production line hybrid cars is not significantly higher than for regular cars. I know this for a fact, because as it happens, at Ed Storm's recommendation I recently purchased a Prius hybrid. Before I did that, I asked both the dealer and my car insurance agent about maintenance and repair costs. Toyota offers the same warranty coverage for the Prius as for their other cars. For $2,000 they offer an extended maintenance contract that covers virtually everything for 10 years or 100,000 miles. Insurance companies charge only a little more for accident coverage. If these cars cost far more to maintain and repair, Toyota and Allstate would already be losing their shirts, since there are hundreds of thousands of these cars in use worldwide. I think Mr. Steck should fact check his statement little more carefully. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 14:33:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FLX64d022139; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:33:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FLX4ZA022111; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:33:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:33:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815172346.0456dc40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:32:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: CNN: Tinkerers fiddle with hybrids to increase efficiency In-Reply-To: <43010516.50809 ix.netcom.com> References: <48vhmp$160bhc2 mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> <43010516.50809 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >When these people claim to get 250 miles/gal using a modified Prius, what >they really mean is that they get 45 miles/gal plus 205 extra miles >because they charge the batteries from the electric grid. This is much >different from claiming that the Prius can be made more efficient just by >adding extra batteries. It is far more efficient, because it takes much less fuel to generate electricity and charge electric car than to use the Prius onboard generator. In other words, central generating plants are much more fuel efficient than the Prius generator. (Modern ones are -- not the old ones.) If your modified plug-in Prius is powered by a combination of the on-board ICE plus a gas-fired central generator, and the distance you commute is short, so that the onboard ICE is seldom needed, efficiency will be at least 50% higher. If you live in Seattle, Washington and your local electricity comes from hydroelectricity or wind, your fuel efficiency is effectively infinite. >Using this logic, a pure electric car would get an infinite number of >miles/gal. Yes, powered by wind, it would. To be precise, it would be powered by nuclear fusion in the Sun, which produces a very large number of miles per kg of hydrogen. >Consequently, the quoted miles/gal actually has no meaning. I think this quoted ratio is quite meaningful. It indicates approximately how many million barrels of gasoline the US would save if everyone drove a plug-in hybrid automobile. Since the average car now gets 20 miles per gallon, this figure indicates that we would reduce consumption of petroleum (oil) by a factor of 10 or more, which is probably correct. Of course we would increase consumption of coal and uranium somewhat, to compensate, but the overall caloric value of the fuel consumed would also fall by a large factor, and the amount of CO2 and pollution generated would also decline dramatically. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 14:45:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FLjMXW026174; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:45:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FLjLh3026159; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:45:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:45:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <49jvlh$29748o mxip27a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,108,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="76779800:sNHT15250108" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:44:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steck sez: ... > BTW, since Yucca Mountain doesn't look like it's going to be > done for a while and you seem to have a preference to live > next door to a uranium plant, mind if we store a few > thousand harmless spent rods in your back yard? We only > have over 54,000 metric tones of it now in the > US.... Nah, > didn't think so. > > http://www.ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/04dec/RS22001.pdf > > > -john If I was forced to live either "next door" to an oil/coal fire utility plant or a nuclear plant, the nuclear plant would win hands down. Acid rain can kill the environment just as effectively as radioactive fallout and in far greater numbers. >From what I've read the uproar over using Yucca Mountain as a storage facility is temporary. It's still likely to become the ultimate repository of our nation's radioactdive waste, for better or worse. Are you from Nevada? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 15:50:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7FMoLtK018842; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:50:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7FMo8LK018759; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:50:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:50:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:49:48 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a1eb$a54f6ec0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <49jvlh$29748o mxip27a.cluster1.charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7FMnpDR018660 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I choose not to live near either one, but down wind of several (iodine tablets in the medicine cabinet). I quest for clean, independent, and distributed power generation. A fuel cell in every home and a solar grid / wind mill on every roof I say. I live in the land of nuclear power (1st) and ethanol production (2nd)... Illinois. Ironically neither of which give me cheap electric or lower gas pump prices. With no where to go, the spent rods keep piling up. Yucca only increases the risk of exposure when they get loaded on rail cars and paraded West by routes that pass through highly populated areas. http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/states/statesil.html I suppose if they were pebble bed units rather than pressurized light water I would have a different opinion. That could potentially be the automobile motor of the future... full circle back to steam power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor -john -----Original Message----- From: orionworks charter.net [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:45 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: orionworks charter.net Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article Steck sez: ... > BTW, since Yucca Mountain doesn't look like it's going to be > done for a while and you seem to have a preference to live > next door to a uranium plant, mind if we store a few > thousand harmless spent rods in your back yard? We only > have over 54,000 metric tones of it now in the > US.... Nah, > didn't think so. > > http://www.ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/04dec/RS22001.pdf > > > -john If I was forced to live either "next door" to an oil/coal fire utility plant or a nuclear plant, the nuclear plant would win hands down. Acid rain can kill the environment just as effectively as radioactive fallout and in far greater numbers. >From what I've read the uproar over using Yucca Mountain as a storage facility is temporary. It's still likely to become the ultimate repository of our nation's radioactdive waste, for better or worse. Are you from Nevada? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 18:22:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7G1LMjB009810; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:21:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7G1LJwo009799; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:21:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:21:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.168.184] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: MAHG is a 3 Port Device Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:20:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816012038.IBEH4854.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <_EiRj.A.DZC.P-TADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Louis has more than one web site. Consider this: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/photos.htm In the first photo, note the electrical lead to the MAHG housing labeled "to freq. generator". In the sites we have been discussing showing COP > 20 there is no connection to this lead. My sepiticism is jiggled. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 18:23:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7G1Mx3I010999; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:23:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7G1MwQS010969; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:22:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:22:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ab01c5a200$fac659d0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <48vhmp$160bhc2 mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> <43010516.50809@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: CNN: Tinkerers fiddle with hybrids to increase efficiency Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:22:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: CNN: Tinkerers fiddle with hybrids to increase efficiency > When these people claim to get 250 miles/gal using a modified Prius, what > they really mean is that they get 45 miles/gal plus 205 extra miles > because they charge the batteries from the electric grid. This is much > different from claiming that the Prius can be made more efficient just by > adding extra batteries. Using this logic, a pure electric car would get > an infinite number of miles/gal. Consequently, the quoted miles/gal > actually has no meaning. > > Regards, > Ed > Which is essentially correct. A plug-in hybrid electric auto would start to change the whole petroleum/ICE way of looking at personal travel. Travel would start to be calculated is miles per charge, rather than miles per gallon. Does anyone really think the oil industry wants people to starting thinking in these terms? Especially with electric being much cheaper per mile than gasoline with today's prices. Since going all electric doesn't seem too plausible at the moment. Using these plug-in hybrid calculations like 250 Mpg seems like a good way of conveying to the general public the potential of this technology. If someone used a car like a plug-in hybrid every day for a modest commute and errands, and plugged it in overnight, then 250 Mpgs could be a reality. The car would go 250 miles on one gallon of gasoline! What an improvement! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 18:52:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7G1qYw1022878; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:52:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7G1qWII022865; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:52:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:52:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ae01c5a205$01967160$d0bcfea9 jb4> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050816012038.IBEH4854.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: MAHG is a 3 Port Device Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:50:58 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" Although the original device (and the Svetlana tube) was a triode, if you look at the dates of those photos, they are back in Dec '03. It looks like the present approach is diode and that the RF triode was abandoned some time ago and the present config is diode w/ no RF input.... We all await the imminent update.... > Jean-Louis has more than one web site. Consider this: > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/photos.htm > > In the first photo, note the electrical lead to the MAHG housing labeled "to freq. generator". In the sites we have been discussing showing COP > 20 there is no connection to this lead. > > My sepiticism is jiggled. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 18:57:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7G1uUU3024379; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:56:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7G1uTdf024357; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:56:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:56:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.168.184] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: MAHG is a 3 Port Device Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:56:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816015607.IQYN4854.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > Although the original device (and the Svetlana tube) was a > triode, if you look at the dates of those photos, they are > back in Dec '03. It looks like the present approach is diode > and that the RF triode was abandoned some time ago and the > present config is diode w/ no RF input.... Agreed. But it is really important to know if the W grid is electrically connected to the center anode. > We all await the imminent update.... You know something we don't? The Silence of the Labs is getting suspicious. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 15 19:48:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7G2mEGI009881; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:48:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7G2mBuI009832; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:48:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:48:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c5a20d$5052b7c0$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <20050816015607.IQYN4854.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Re: MAHG is a 3 Port Device Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:50:50 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <3ykeRC.A.PZC.pPVADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What is this "centre anode " part? >From my limited understanding the W grid is a heated cathode and the Sputtered Copper housing is the Anode. Although there was originally some attemp to run a cathode - anode pulsed or wave form signal this seems to have been abandoned in favour of a pulsed heating current to the cathode. Was The MAHG ever built as a triode ? My understanding of a triode is that it had a separate plate in the ion stream to modify the output to the anode. this doesn't appear to have ever been the case. One measurement that doesn't seem to have been made and would be interesting is the differential from cathode to anode and if there is an excess of electrons being carried across in the hydrogen stream. I think tungsten was chosen in the original tube because it is an excellent electron emitter and this effect doesn't appear to have been measured in the MAHG. Regards JohnH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: MAHG is a 3 Port Device > > From: "Jones Beene" > > > Although the original device (and the Svetlana tube) was a > > triode, if you look at the dates of those photos, they are > > back in Dec '03. It looks like the present approach is diode > > and that the RF triode was abandoned some time ago and the > > present config is diode w/ no RF input.... > > Agreed. But it is really important to know if the W grid is electrically connected to the center anode. > > > We all await the imminent update.... > > You know something we don't? > > The Silence of the Labs is getting suspicious. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 05:26:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GCPm4W003370; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:26:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GCPjSk003345; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:25:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:25:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: MAHG is a 3 Port Device Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 8:25:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816122523.DMEE10832.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Harris" > What is this "centre anode " part? > > From my limited understanding the W grid is a heated cathode and the > Sputtered Copper housing is the Anode. The "oil filter" housing lead is the one I referenced in this thread. There are also two other electrical connections at the base. One appears to feed the "cathode" grid and the other seems to feed the center rod, what I am calling the "anode": http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/diagram.htm Note in the ou tests, it appears there is no connection to the "oil filter". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 05:55:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GCsmAS019100; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:55:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GCslRt019077; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:54:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:54:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Gravity is an Asymmetrical Effect of the ZPF Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 8:54:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816125426.DYGC10832.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In 1996 Haisch and Rueda published a ZPF explanation for intertial mass: http://www.calphysics.org/haisch/mercury.html They now say they have a similar explanation for gravitational mass: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/ns-ijv081005.php "Rueda and Haisch argued that charged matter particles such as electrons and quarks are unceasingly jiggled around by the zero-point field. If they are at rest, or travelling at a constant speed with respect to the field, then the net effect of all this jiggling is zero: there is no force acting on the particle. But if a particle is accelerating, their calculations in 1994 showed that it would encounter more photons from the quantum vacuum in front than behind it (see Diagram). This would result in a net force pushing against the particle, giving rise to its inertial mass (Physical Review A, vol 49, p 678). But this work only explained one type of mass. Now the researchers say that the same process can explain gravitational mass. Imagine a massive body that warps the fabric of space-time around it. The object would also warp the zero-point field such that a particle in its vicinity would encounter more photons on the side away from the object than on the nearer side. This would result in a net force towards the massive object, so the particle would feel the tug of gravity. This would be its gravitational mass, or weight (Annalen der Physik, vol 14, p 479). " Anyone have a Newscientist subscription to fetch the whole article? http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7844&feedId=online-news_rss20 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 06:16:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GDG9vH032069; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:16:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GDG7S3032054; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:16:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:16:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c5a265$0afbd500$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <20050816122523.DMEE10832.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: MAHG is a 3 Port Device Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:18:48 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > The "oil filter" housing lead is the one I referenced in this thread. There are also two other electrical connections at the base. One appears to feed the "cathode" grid and the other seems to feed the center rod, what I am calling the "anode": > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/diagram.htm > > Note in the ou tests, it appears there is no connection to the "oil filter". Refering to Pages 3.501.205 & 3.558.149 it is fairly clear that the centre rod you refer to is the connection to one end of the cathode grid (No4 on 3.558.149) and the other end of the cathode grid is No2 on 3.558.149. This means the connections they are using now is from No 2 to No 4 to heat the cathode element. and as you said there is no anode connection. Regards JohnH From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 06:45:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GDjJGu014008; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:45:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GDjHLP013980; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:45:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:45:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: From the BB to Neutron Stars Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 9:44:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816134450.WKUG3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These subjects have appeared on the list lately. Jones, maybe neutron stars *are* n=1/137 hydrinos: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/15/MNGUSE7QIA1.DTL From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 07:07:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GE7JJb026451; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:07:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GE7I4h026437; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:07:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:07:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815173350.04570720 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:48:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Another Plug-In Article In-Reply-To: <000301c5a1de$4cf678c0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815133400.037687b0 pop.mindspring.com> <000301c5a1de$4cf678c0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >All electric vehicles will not reduce pollution, just shift it out of >urban areas to more harmful types. This is incorrect. All modern electric vehicles are far more fuel efficient than pure ICE, and somewhat better than hybrid ICE. There are two reasons: the initial generation of energy is far more efficient, and a modern electric vehicle regenerates electricity during braking. Every book and government study I have seen confirms this. See, for example the NREL document here: http://lenr-canr.org/EnergyOverview.pdf >Not sure why everyone thinks that is better. The additional electric >demand burden of replacing 20% of passenger vehicles would put a >substantial demand on current electric generation plants. No it would not. There is plenty of spare capacity at night. It would consume additional fuel from fossil fuel fired plants. However it would consume less fossil fuel per km of vehicle propulsion than conventional ICE automobiles do. >EV cars are not less expensive to buy or operate. The cars cost more up >front, the parts cost more when they break or when in accidents, insurance >cost more, and complex electromechanical systems require specialized >technicians who cost more per hour. I do not know about EV cars, but I know about the Prius hybrid, and this statement is inaccurate. It is true that the insurance companies charge a premium for hybrid vehicles, because repairs are somewhat more expensive. But the difference is not great. The cost of insuring a $27,000 hybrid is roughly the same as the cost of insuring a $35,000 luxury car. I have direct personal knowledge of this because not only do I own a new Prius, but last week some idiotic lady who was talking on a cell phone while driving an SUV whacked into it, causing $1,000 of damage. (She wrecked the car behind it and caused a three-car chain collision.) Fortunately, the body shop and insurance company assure me that the repairs will be no more expensive than they are for an ordinary car, and all traces of the damage will be erased. Obviously if she had damaged the engine it would cost more to repair than an ordinary car, but insurance companies now have enough actual field data to take this into account, so they do not lose money when they cover this car. >As a car class, their resale value is yet to be benchmarked, their true >service life unknown. Toyota spent $1 billion developing this car. They have been operating prototypes for more than 10 years. Thousands of these cars have been on the road for five years now. The true service life certainly is known. So far, the resale value for the first two years is higher than the new car list price, and in many cases higher than the first owner actually paid. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 07:15:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GEF0Qo031090; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:15:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GEExEP031074; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:14:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:14:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: vortex server Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:14:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Vo, For those of us who lurk and may subscribe/unsubscribe but want to keep up with what's gone, http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ doesn't appear to be working. Has the url changed? R. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 07:41:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GEf1bb014009; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:41:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GEex2Y013986; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:40:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:40:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c5a270$76cf9680$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <20050816122523.DMEE10832.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <000d01c5a265$0afbd500$0201a8c0@default> Subject: Re: MAHG is a 3 Port Device Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:40:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "John Harris" > Refering to Pages 3.501.205 & 3.558.149 it is fairly clear that > the centre rod you refer to is the connection to one end of the cathode grid.... This means the connections they are using now is from No 2 to No 4 to heat the cathode element. and as you said there is no anode connection. I would agree with this.... with the proviso that 1) we have never been given a good schematic 2) the wiring is now quite different now than in the original 3) the blueprint is for the original 4) logic would dictate that the anode is at least grounded IOW we really do not know, but there is the expectation, for me at least in reading between the lines from email from N. M. that soon a new version (ver 3.0 ??) will be online, and that new version will be the one (not this version) which they hope to have replicated. The suspicion is that there are problems with the measurement setup in this version, but that it is still OU. As to why it would seem that the device should be grounded... it is powered by a MOSFET amp from a battery which would possibly introduce a charge imbalance otherwise. However, maybe that is one of the secrets, who knows. Among the other "fringe" possibilities to explain this anomaly is one that has not been mentioned so far - that a battery, particularly a lead-acid battery, introduces a "heavy" electron. Fred Sparber came up with the "electronium" (*e-) concept, and no one has been able to shoot that hypothesis down yet. "electronium" (*e-) is hypothesized to be a lepton-triad, consisting of an e- bound to Ps, but not in the config you might expect - more like a quark triad....which has the same charge as an electron but about 3 times more mass. It would likely have an affinity for heavy metals, where it would normally reside in an inner orbital, because of its mass. Many anomalies have been presented in the literature with battery power supplies, which are absent when the power is switched to conventional. That is pretty far-out but should be mentioned IF the OU effect is only seen with battery power. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 08:16:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GFGCjn002346; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:16:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GFGBRP002317; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:16:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:16:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014101c5a275$628e1840$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050816134450.WKUG3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: From the BB to Neutron Stars Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:15:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" > These subjects have appeared on the list lately. Jones, maybe > neutron stars *are* n=1/137 hydrinos: Excellent observation.... Or going one step further, maybe there are two similar objects - cosmic cousins so to speak.... the "gamma burster" is (hydrino-based), but the stable "neutron star" isn't? This almost calls for a repeat of the bygone Cygnet speculation. As everyone on Vo must surely remember ;-) - the hydrino may be a good candidate for the extraordinary and once better-known cosmic particle, formerly known as the "Cygnon," now known as the "Cygnet" (a.k.a. for Madeline-o-philes and other muttersprachers: the enormous Schwannstecker). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 08:39:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GFd0x9025943; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:39:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GFcui9025903; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:38:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:38:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:39:17 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Gravity is an Asymmetrical Effect of the ZPF In-reply-to: <20050816125426.DYGC10832.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Anyone have a Newscientist subscription to fetch the whole article? > > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7844&feedId=online-news_rss20 > This was posted on another list. Harry >> 13 August 2005 >> >> From New Scientist Print Edition . >> >> Mark Anderson >> >> Where mass comes from >> >> >> >> WHERE mass comes from is one of the deepest mysteries of nature. >> Now a controversial theory suggests that mass comes from the >> interaction of matter with the quantum vacuum that pervades the >> universe. >> >> >> >> The theory was previously used to explain inertial mass - the >> property of matter that resists acceleration - but it has been >> extended to gravitational mass, which is the property of matter >> that feels the tug of gravity. >> >> >> >> For decades, mainstream opinion has held that something called the >> Higgs field gives matter its mass, mediated by a particle called >> the Higgs boson. But no one has yet seen the Higgs boson, despite >> considerable time and money spent looking for it in particle >> accelerators. >> >> >> >> In the 1990s, Alfonso Rueda of California State University in Long >> Beach and Bernard Haisch, who was then at the California Institute >> for Physics and Astrophysics in Scotts Valley and is now with >> ManyOne Networks, suggested that a very different kind of field >> known as the quantum vacuum might be responsible for mass. This >> field, which is predicted by quantum theory, is the lowest energy >> state of space-time and is made of residual electromagnetic >> vibrations at every point in the universe. It is also called a >> zero-point field and is thought to manifest itself as a sea of >> virtual photons that continually pop into and out of existence. >> >> >> >> Rueda and Haisch argued that charged matter particles such as >> electrons and quarks are unceasingly jiggled around by the zero- >> point field. If they are at rest, or travelling at a constant >> speed with respect to the field, then the net effect of all this >> jiggling is zero: there is no force acting on the particle. But if >> a particle is accelerating, their calculations in 1994 showed that >> it would encounter more photons from the quantum vacuum in front >> than behind it (see Diagram). This would result in a net force >> pushing against the particle, giving rise to its inertial mass >> (Physical Review A, vol 49, p 678). >> >> >> >> But this work only explained one type of mass. Now the researchers >> say that the same process can explain gravitational mass. Imagine >> a massive body that warps the fabric of space-time around it. The >> object would also warp the zero-point field such that a particle >> in its vicinity would encounter more photons on the side away from >> the object than on the nearer side. This would result in a net >> force towards the massive object, so the particle would feel the >> tug of gravity. This would be its gravitational mass, or weight >> (Annalen der Physik, vol 14, p 479). >> >> >> >> Rueda and Haisch say this demonstrates the equivalence of inertial >> and gravitational mass - something that Einstein argued for in his >> theory of general relativity. "In place of having the particle >> accelerate through the zero-point field, you have the zero-point >> field accelerating past the particle," says Haisch. "So the >> generation of weight is the same as the generation of inertial >> mass." >> >> >> >> The idea is far from winning wide acceptance. To begin with, >> there's a conundrum about the zero-point field that needs to be >> solved. The total energy contained in the field is staggeringly >> large - enough to warp space-time and make the universe collapse >> in a heartbeat. Obviously this is not happening. Also, the pair's >> work can only account for the mass of charged particles. >> >> >> >> Nobel laureate Sheldon Glashow of Boston University is dismissive. >> "This stuff, as Wolfgang Pauli would say, is not even wrong," he >> says. But physicist Paul Wesson of Stanford University in >> California says Rueda and Haisch's unorthodox approach shows >> promise, though he adds that the theory needs to be backed up by >> experimental evidence. "If Haisch [and Rueda] could come up with a >> concrete prediction, then that would make people sit up and take >> notice," he says. "We're all looking for something we can >> measure." >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 09:00:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GFxKQp003386; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:59:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GFxJKF003372; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:59:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:59:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Gravity is an Asymmetrical Effect of the ZPF Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:58:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816155856.ZNHW3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <3xSMEB.A.j0.W1gADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Harry Veeder > This was posted on another list. Thanks. Remy had sent this to me also. Seems the Eurekalert article is the complete article. Sneaky of NS to try to get you to spring for $4.95 to read a few extra paragraphs. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 09:03:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GG2x2Q006913; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:03:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GG2v7w006884; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:02:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:02:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: vortex server Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:02:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816160233.ZPSJ3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk > Date: 2005/08/16 Tue AM 10:14:33 EDT > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: vortex server The escribe servers are frequently unavailable. The URL still resolves to an IP address with our DNS. Try again later. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 10:09:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GH8bo0001162; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:08:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GH8Z50001141; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:08:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:08:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816124950.048e8850 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:08:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4c5zDD.A.xR.S2hADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms and others have objected to the terminology "250 mpg" with reference to plug in hybrid cars. It is confusing and inaccurate. I had the same reaction Ed did when I saw the term "250 mpg hybrid car" in a New York Times op-ed column a couple of months ago. I thought: "That's ridiculous. It is beyond the Carnot efficiency of any vehicle weighing enough to carry passengers safely; one weighing 1000 lbs or more. This must refer to some kind of impractical lightweight experimental vehicle." Then I read the whole article and saw it meant combined gasoline and plug in electric power. "250 mpg" refers to the vehicle propulsion derived from gasoline for an average commuter, with various assumptions made about battery capacity, average terrain, traffic conditions and so on. Of course this is only a rough estimate. It only applies to passenger cars. It is a shame this technology could not be used with long-haul trucks. Short-haul urban delivery trucks might be able to take advantage of plug-in hybrid systems if the vehicles returned to the home base frequently, and batteries can be recharged fairly quickly, during the driver's lunch hour, let us say. Perhaps it would be better to use some other abbreviation such as "MPG+e" (miles-per-gallon plus electric energy component). Even though "250 mpg" is technically inaccurate, and it is only a rough estimate, as I said yesterday it does show that plug-in hybrids could reduce passenger vehicle petroleum consumption by about a factor of 10. This is important. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 11:29:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GIP6Na030946; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:25:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GIP464030940; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:25:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:25:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Nuclear H2 Production Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:24:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816182443.JUUC10832.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A fellow petrophobe alerted me to the STAR-H2, Secure Transportable Autonomous Reactor, a lead cooled water cracker: http://www.hydrogen.anl.gov/publications.html (last one.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 11:33:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GISQwX032504; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:28:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GISNKn032464; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:28:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:28:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c5a290$374f6e70$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816124950.048e8850 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:27:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A255.8A87C280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A255.8A87C280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell"=20 > Ed Storms and others have objected to the terminology "250 mpg" with=20 > reference to plug in hybrid cars. It is confusing and inaccurate. I suggest as an alternative measure - PQ or pollution quotient. Perhaps = CPM, or Carbon (equivalent) per Mile would be less finger-pointing, but = don't we need a "stick" as well as a carrot?=20 Another alternative which is equally "blame-worthy" would be PPM or = pollution per mile. It would then be a reflection of the owner's = transportation segment of his total pollution quotient, which includes = the home. Every citizen could pay a tax-rate (surtax) based upon their = individual pollution quotient PQ, in addition to income ;-)=20 How "left" is that...? For gasoline, the calculation would be simpler - in that it is grams of = carbon released per mile driven. We could add some extra for diesel as = you get particulates, and deduct some for ethanol as it burns cleaner. = We could go all metric and call it CPK.=20 CPM, however, recognizes American obstinence, something we should all be = very proud of in the face of world opinion, like going to war over = oil-lust and deliberately false information... plus it has the added = nuance of honoring Gary Kildall, who would otherwise be the unluckiest = man in the USA for the last few decades (but that is another story). For the hybrid, the measure would be a more complicated formula based on = the percentage of electric input, which itself would take into account = the mix of electric power. If batteries are charged at home(office) with = solar panels or wind, this could add zero and give the car owner a large = tax savings (off of the pollution-surtax).=20 This formula for power from the grid could be done nationally or = locally. If the area had 15% hydro, 15% nuclear, 5% wind and solar and = 65% coal, and the efficiency of the coal-fired plant was 45% then the = CPM for the electric part would be about half of the normal gasoline = equivalent for the same power, but since the hybrid uses less power, it = would be even lower - and a big savings if we had the surtax in place. The only way to get quick and effective results is the "carrot and = stick" approach, where you reward economy and low pollution and also = give a disincentive for gluttons, who want to keep the a half dozen = hummers around their 50,000 sq. ft mansion... not unlike a famous = governator, who is... thank heavens... not a neo-con, and would not mind = paying the pollution surtax anyway, as it is a pittance compared to his = other outside income in public office. http://www.sacunion.com/pages/state_capitol/articles/5749/ That's the left-coast report for today.... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A255.8A87C280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----- Original Message ----- =
From: "Jed Rothwell"
 
> Ed Storms and others have objected = to the=20 terminology "250 mpg" with
> reference to plug in hybrid cars. It = is=20 confusing and inaccurate.
 
I suggest as an alternative measure - = PQ or=20 pollution quotient. Perhaps CPM, or Carbon (equivalent) per Mile would = be less=20 finger-pointing, but don't we need a "stick" as well as a carrot? =
 
Another alternative which is equally = "blame-worthy"=20 would be PPM or pollution per mile. It would then be a reflection of the = owner's=20 transportation segment of his total pollution quotient, which includes = the home.=20 Every citizen could pay a tax-rate (surtax) based upon their individual=20 pollution quotient PQ, in addition to income  ;-)
 
How "left" is that...?
 
For gasoline, the calculation would be = simpler - in=20 that it is grams of carbon released per mile driven. We could add some=20 extra for diesel as you get particulates, and deduct some for = ethanol as it=20 burns cleaner. We could go all metric and call it CPK.
 
CPM, however, recognizes American = obstinence,=20 something we should all be very proud of in the face of world opinion, = like=20 going to war over oil-lust and deliberately false information... plus it = has the=20 added nuance of honoring Gary Kildall, who would otherwise be the = unluckiest man=20 in the USA for the last few decades (but that is another = story).
 
For the hybrid, the measure would = be a more=20 complicated formula based on the percentage of electric input, which = itself=20 would take into account the mix of electric power. If batteries are = charged at=20 home(office) with solar panels or wind, this could add zero and give the = car=20 owner a large tax savings (off of the pollution-surtax).
 
This formula for power from the grid = could be done=20 nationally or locally. If the area had 15% hydro, 15% nuclear, 5% wind = and solar=20 and 65% coal, and the efficiency of the coal-fired plant was 45% then = the CPM=20 for the electric part would be about half of the normal gasoline = equivalent for=20 the same power, but since the hybrid uses less power, it would be even = lower -=20 and a big savings if we had the surtax in place.
 
The only way to get quick and effective = results is=20 the "carrot and stick" approach, where you reward economy and low = pollution and=20 also give a disincentive for gluttons, who want to keep the a half = dozen=20 hummers around their 50,000 sq. ft mansion... not unlike a famous = governator,=20 who is... thank heavens... not a neo-con, and would not mind paying = the=20 pollution surtax anyway, as it is a pittance compared to his other = outside=20 income in public office.
 
http:= //www.sacunion.com/pages/state_capitol/articles/5749/
 
That's the left-coast report for=20 today....
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5A255.8A87C280-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 12:05:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GJ58c3014598; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:05:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GJ57aM014583; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:05:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:05:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816144803.0491ada0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:04:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? In-Reply-To: <001001c5a290$374f6e70$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816124950.048e8850 pop.mindspring.com> <001001c5a290$374f6e70$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >I suggest as an alternative measure - PQ or pollution quotient. Perhaps >CPM, or Carbon (equivalent) per Mile would be less finger-pointing, but >don't we need a "stick" as well as a carrot? Actually, to be fair to rail and bus transportation, we should make the units passenger miles. There have been many studies of pollution per passenger mile in various forms of transport. This is an important subject. I still think the best solution to the US commuter transportation system is to stop commuting. More widespread use of Internet based video communications and satellite offices would not only solve problems with pollution and CO2, it would also reduce traffic congestion and traffic accidents. A few months ago I noted an article in the Washington Post, "Virtual Secretary Puts New Face on Pakistan." In Washington, DC, it is more economical to hire a secretary in Pakistan and have her work entirely via Internet based cameras that is to hire someone locally. I do not know how much energy it takes to maintain a video link to Pakistan for one day, but it is far less than it takes to drive a few miles by car. An entire transatlantic cable takes only 10 KW, and nowadays you could send umpty-thousands of videoconferences across one. (I have lost track of how many.) See: http://davidw.home.cern.ch/davidw/public/SubCables.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 12:09:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GJ9EmD016389; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:09:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GJ9Bwp016361; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:09:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:09:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48u2fu$15vpcb5 mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,113,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1274851685:sNHT25310212" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:08:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Sez: > I suggest as an alternative measure - PQ or pollution > quotient. Perhaps CPM, or Carbon (equivalent) per Mile > would be less finger-pointing, but don't we need > a "stick" as well as a carrot? ... > http://www.sacunion.com/pages/state_capitol/articles/5749/ > > That's the left-coast report for today.... > > Jones Hi Lefty, My personal thoughts on trying to come up with meaningful ratings would be based on the KISS principal. The myriad of formulas you suggested are, in my view, way too hopelessly complicated for the average American to comprehend. I couldn't figure them out! EVERYBODY, OTOH, understands MPG! It's simple. Increase the number associated with MPG and you know that's a good thing. Granted, one really can't use the MPG rating when dealing with an all-electrical vehicle. In that case it seems to me that using a simple KwH rating might be an adequate gage. How many miles can the car go on a single Kilowatt hour. Again, just as in MPG ratings, the higher the number achieved per KwH the better it is. When charging the hybrid/electric at night the fact that what comes out of the wall socket was generated from 10% biomass, 40% nuclear, and 45% from coal, and 5% wind, is not going to mean all that much to the average U.S. citizen. All he will really care about is how many KwH's he accumulated on his monthly utility bill. Such a rating system may not be accurate enough for lefties, but it at least it gives the average American citizen a realistic way in which to compare how his hybrid/electric performs. The point being, the higher one can get the numerical value associated with KwH, the better it is for everyone. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 12:22:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GJLx2f020840; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:22:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GJLvvD020808; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:21:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816151741.048ed200 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:21:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? In-Reply-To: <48u2fu$15vpcb5 mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <48u2fu$15vpcb5 mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <869sBD.A.EFF.UzjADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Granted, one really can't use the MPG rating when dealing with an >all-electrical vehicle. In that case it seems to me that using a simple >KwH rating might be an adequate gage. How many miles can the car go on a >single Kilowatt hour. Again, just as in MPG ratings, the higher the number >achieved per KwH the better it is. The only problem is that most people do not know what a kilowatt hour is, and more important they do not know what it costs (5 to 10 cents). Perhaps a good rating would be MPD: miles per dollar. Electric cars are far cheaper per mile. This issue is somewhat complicated because there are various subsidies for electricity and for gasoline. But even when you make a complicated analysis to take into account some of these factors, the answer does not change all that much. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 13:02:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GK1NhW004161; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:01:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GK1Let004141; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:01:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:01:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4403b0$1bciud6 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,113,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1456044454:sNHT733492732" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:00:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <97yfV.A.jAB.QYkADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > orionworks sez: > Jed sez: > > Granted, one really can't use the MPG rating when dealing > > with an all-electrical vehicle. In that case it seems to > > me that using a simple KwH rating might be an adequate > > gage. How many miles can the car go on a single Kilowatt > > hour. Again, just as in MPG ratings, the higher the number > > achieved per KwH the better it is. > > The only problem is that most people do not know what a > kilowatt hour is, and more important they do not know what > it costs (5 to 10 cents). Perhaps a good rating would be > MPD: miles per dollar. Electric cars are far cheaper > per mile. I would agree with you that at present the average citizen may not be as familiar with how to make practical comparisons between MPG and KwH. Never the less, I suspect most citizens would not only quickly adapt to comprehending and using the Miles per KwH rating system, I think they might really enjoy using it, particularly when bragging to their neighbor next door who still owns a Big American Gas Guzzling SUV, aka the GAGGSUV. Hypothetically speaking, if the EV owner can show his gas guzzling SUV neighbor that it's costing him $50 a month to drive his EV vehicle 300 miles, when the gas guzzler is costing its owner $200 to go the same 300 miles, well, the writing is pretty much on the wall. There's nut'in like "bragging rights" to instill envy among one's peers to trade up. This brings up an important question that I hope some savvy veteran Vort will help educate me on: Just HOW many Miles per Kilowatt hour should an all-electric vehicle get, let's say, for a vehicle weighing in around 1500 - 2000 pounds? I realize all sorts of factors can affect this rating, i.e. wind resistance, tire tread. etc... But what's a good guestamate? > This issue is somewhat complicated because there are various > subsidies for electricity and for gasoline. But even when > you make a complicated analysis to take into account some > of these factors, the answer does not change all that much. > > - Jed Nothing is ever simple or black and white. Never the less, I have not yet heard a convincing argument that would sway me not to suggest that we consider using Miles per per KwH as a reasonable rating system for EVs and hybrids. Let me coin the acronym as: MPKwH as part of a hybrid/electric vehicle's over-all efficiency rating. I'm sure somebody has probably already coined the acronym. It's so obvious. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 13:49:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GKnQ5U023860; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:49:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GKnPwN023844; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:49:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:49:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:49:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816204904.JVVX23089.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: This brings up an important question that I hope some savvy veteran Vort will help educate me on: Google says 2 to 4 miles per kWhr for "current" EVs. :-) You want air conditioning with that? "Savvy Vort"? Oxymoron. Here's a web page that gives it to ya in all ways: http://www.accs.net/users/cefpearson/convers.htm In the interest of obfuscation, I vote for furlongs/joule. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 13:52:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GKpVDa024963; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:51:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GKpTBt024929; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:51:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:51:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816162946.049045f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:51:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Non-hybrid Corolla versus Prius In-Reply-To: <000001c5a1bd$8ebc1970$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> References: <007501c5a101$e574bf40$d0bcfea9 jb4> <000001c5a1bd$8ebc1970$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >BTW, has anyone else noticed the MPG on a standard / non-hybrid Toyota >Corolla? 30/38 mpg for automatic 32/41 mpg for manual. Not bad for >standard technology in a reasonably sized 4-door sedan IMO. This is a good point. There are standard cars with excellent gas mileage. I assume these are the official government ratings. The comparable numbers for the Prius are 60 and 51 mpg. Supposedly it gets more miles-per-gallon during city driving, but that has not been my observation so far. Very few cars actually achieve the official MPG ratings in actual use. This is understandable. The tests have to be made under controlled, invariant conditions, which tend to be optimal. It would be difficult to design standardized tests on rough roads or in artificial stop-and-go traffic. (How rough? How long do you stop?) The Prius has an onboard computer that reports miles-per-gallon. It appears to underestimate mileage. I computed mpg based on the number of gallons I added during refueling, and I came up with a higher number; around 45 - 50 mpg versus 41 mpg on the computer. In online discussion groups of the Prius, other drivers have also reported this. I tried using premium gasoline, and it seemed to yield significantly greater mileage. I read somewhere that it works well with this car. I have never purchased premium gasoline for any other car. As for features, I have not driven a Corolla so I cannot compare it. The Prius looks small outside, but it is a surprisingly large inside, with plenty of room for people in the backseat, and lots of cargo capacity. My impression is that Corollas are smaller. Or less handy, because they are not hatchbacks, are they? The Prius also has every safety feature I have ever heard of. When you start to slide on the road it practically takes the keys away from you and drives itself. (Actually, it does not have keys. It has a RFID gadget, which you never take out of your pocket.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 14:36:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GLZnYt008366; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:36:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GLZlHQ008344; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:35:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:35:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816170913.048eba50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:35:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? In-Reply-To: <20050816204904.JVVX23089.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050816204904.JVVX23089.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Google says 2 to 4 miles per kWhr for "current" EVs. Okay, so let's do some simple arithmetic. At $0.10 / kWh that's 2.5 to 5 cents per mile, versus 10 cents per mile for the average ICE car with gasoline at $2.20 per gallon. Two to 4 times cheaper. And when gas hits $5 per gallon . . . they will be 5 to 10 times cheaper. Actual average gas mileage for passenger cars is 22.1 mpg, 2001 data. This is not the standard rating for new cars, but actual field data reported by the EIA, Annual Energy Review 2002, Table 2.9. Let's reconsider the plug-in hybrid that gets 250 miles per gallon when used by the average commuter. Let's make some projections for 2008, or maybe 2010: Gasoline costs $5 per gallon Electricity has gone up to 15 cents / kWh ICE-only average cars have reached 25 mpg Hummers still hum along at 8.5 mpg Assume the hybrid section of the car works about the same as a Prius, yielding 50 mpg. That's $5 for 50 miles, and the other 200 miles come from electricity alone. Assume the electric car portion is as good as today's optimum EV, 4 miles per kWh. So 200 miless take 50 kWh, costing $7.50. Total cost $12.50 per 250 miles, or 5 cents per mile. A pure EV costs about 4 cents per mile. Compare that to 20 cents/mile for the ICE-only average car, or 59 cents for the Hummer. That spells incentive! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 14:43:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GLh5JV011877; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:43:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GLh4IC011863; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:43:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:43:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816173537.048fd330 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:42:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Non-hybrid Corolla versus Prius In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816162946.049045f0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <007501c5a101$e574bf40$d0bcfea9 jb4> <000001c5a1bd$8ebc1970$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050816162946.049045f0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: By the way, I forgot to mention that the Prius produces five to 10 times less pollution than standard / non-hybrid Toyota Corolla and other ICE-only cars. (I mean emissions other than CO2.) The engine runs under optimal conditions at all times; it has the very latest pollution control equipment; and when you stop at a red light or travel slowly in a traffic jam (below 10 mph I think), it turns off, and the car uses the electric motor exclusively. When you first drive the car and the engine cuts off at red lights, it gives you the willies. You think the engine has stalled and conked out, especially when you are used to driving unreliable old cars. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 14:45:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GLiqtI012773; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:45:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GLiolG012748; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:44:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:44:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vheq$15oalis mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,114,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1267029596:sNHT15635056" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:44:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9E3WAC.A.IHD.R5lADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry sez: > Google says 2 to 4 miles per kWhr for "current" EVs. :-) > > You want air conditioning with that? Of course! > "Savvy Vort"? Oxymoron. Here's a web page that gives it to > ya in all ways: > > http://www.accs.net/users/cefpearson/convers.htm > > In the interest of obfuscation, I vote for furlongs/joule. Setting the refined art of obfuscation aside for a second I performd a simple Excel spreadsheet calculation. Pretty interesting results: ****************************************** Cost of running an Electric Vehicle that runs at 2 miles and 4 miles per Kwh, where each KwH costs vary from 5 to 10 cents. Car driven: 1000 miles. ****************************************** Miles $$$ Miles driven: 1000 /KwH /Kwh 2 0.10 $50.00 2 0.09 $45.00 2 0.08 $40.00 2 0.07 $35.00 2 0.06 $30.00 2 0.05 $25.00 4 0.10 $25.00 4 0.09 $22.50 4 0.08 $20.00 4 0.07 $17.50 4 0.06 $15.00 4 0.05 $12.50 ***************************************** Cost of running a Gas Guzzling Car Cost per gallon of gas: $3.00 Miles driven: 1000 miles. ***************************************** Miles Cost per Gallon: $3.00 /Gallon Miles driven: 1000 10 $300.00 25 $120.00 30 $100.00 35 $85.71 45 $66.67 50 $60.00 55 $54.55 60 $50.00 65 $46.15 70 $42.86 ******************************************** ******************************************** A gas driven car buying gas at $3.00/gallon needs to get about 60 miles to the gallon just to match the cost efficiency of an all-electric vehicle running on charges costing the owner 10 cents per kilowatt hour. If KwH costs dropped to 5 cents a gas guzzler's efficiency would have to increase to 120 miles per gallon to maintain par. That's pretty impressive, and a great incentive to go to an all-electric vehicles ASAP. - assuming I did my math correctly. Seems to me that the greatest obstacle to going all out EV remains costs and adequate battery storage capacity. Based on recent news coming out of Toshiba it sounds like quick and efficient recharging problems have likely been resolved. A report claimed to be able to recharge new nano-manufactured prototypes to 80% within 60 seconds, 100% within 4-5 minutes. Of course, Mike Carell cautioned us about throughput problems. One does not want to vaporize their battery with a "quick charge!" In any case, I'd sure love those bragging rights. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 15:10:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GMA4sb022803; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:10:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GMA2aI022787; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:10:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:10:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:09:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050816220938.XBYR4854.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: > Seems to me that the greatest obstacle to going all out EV remains costs and adequate battery storage capacity. Yup. Wasn't too long ago a Vort said all we need is a good battery. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 15:47:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7GMlK3U004897; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:47:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7GMlJuN004889; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:47:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:47:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816184612.045742e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:46:49 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New papers by Szpak et al. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2ELZK.A.UMB.2zmADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSevidenceof.pdf http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakStheeffecto.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 17:07:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7H06dFh003321; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:06:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7H06bim003303; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:06:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:06:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <096601c5a2bf$7ae9e7d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050816184612.045742e0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: New papers by Szpak et al. Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:06:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSevidenceof.pdf And a surprise bit of history in the intro....if it is correct. However, it is 'suspect' since an accelerator must have been involved. If incorrect, statements like this cast doubt on what follows in the fine paper, so one wonders if it is some kind of attempt to rewrite the history of LENR. Actually much of the scientific history of that period 1932-45 does need re-revision, but this ....? "Low temperature nuclear reactions were first reported nearly a century ago. In a brief communication, Oliphant et al. (1934) disclosed that by bombardment of perdeutero inorganic compounds, e.g. (ND4)2SO4, by deuterons produced tritium and hydrogen." Oliphant ML, Hartreck Pm Lord Rutherford (1934) "Transmutation effect observed with heavy hydrogen" Nature 133:413 But if an accelerator was used - is it really a low temperature nuclear reaction ? END of relevant comment. The rest is historical rambling. Please excuse the following flashback as it should have been posted last week at the Hiroshima aniverssary...it is the recurring and haunting message which keeps darting through the warped imagination of putative history revisionism and cold war secrecy. To backtrack two years from Oliphant - following the discovery of deuterium by Urey at Cal Berkeley - heavy water by electrolytic process - it became possible to prepare deuterium ions. Also at Berkeley was the availability of the accelerator of Lawrence and it became possible to produce radioisotopes by bombarding elements with a beam of accelerated deuterons. On the other side of the world, howeverm in his last experiments, Lord Rutherford bombarded heavy water with deuterons from an inferior Cockroft -Walton machine and beat the Berkeley pioneers to tritium. After examination of the products of reaction (the hallmark of the Cambridge Laboratory in UK), it was claimed that two nuclear species with mass-3 could be identified: one was tritium and the other helium-3. It was technically possible thereafter (1934) to produce the so-called "pure fusion" weapon, should it turn out eventually that such is doable without a fission trigger through CANR. I have contended for some years - at first in a half-hearted contrarian role, but now more seriously, that the first CANR reaction was the misfiring of the MARK II weapon at Port Chicago in 1944, only 10 miles away from Cal-Berkeley. This weapon if it was involved in that tragedy, probably used the infamous "Kistiakowsky trigger" which is a LENR trigger... not to mention among the darkest of all black secrets (besides the truth behind Port Chicago). Dr. Kistiakowsky, Head of the Explosives Division of the Manhattan Project and putative inventor the first A-bomb trigger, is almost completely unknown, as a result of that rewriting of history. If the D(T)+Cl --> HCl +n or He + n reaction was able to produce neutrons from just a chemical reaction, it is easy to understand why this info was squashed 60 years ago with the secrecy order, with the side effect we have consequently missed the easiest of all, and most robust of all LENR reactions - and what could have been the foundation for expanding the technology into an acceptable source of energy for our future use, now that oil is no longer plentiful. However... this was not to be. Cold War. Countervailing concerns. However, iis really NOT really a terrorist threat - it is much too unreliable, as history may have taught us already(and been revised). As mentioned, the biggest clue to finding the truth may be with Oppenheimer's memoirs, especially the unpublished family documents. The brilliant scientist professed to feel no lasting remorse for developing the Hiroshima bomb (the Mark III). However, at other times, Oppenheimer revealed feelings of guilt and responsibility for 'something' else. In a meeting with Truman, for example, after which Truman actually said "I don't want to see that son of a bitch in this office ever again" and referred to him afterwards as "that [expletive deleted] cry-baby"...what caused this strange outburst? Did Oppie, then dying of thyroid cancer, threaten Truman with something along the lines of high-level blackmail ? Did that meeting have anything to do with Port Chicago? Oppenheimer at times remarked that he had "known sin", had done the "devil's work," but NOT in regard to the Hiroshima bomb which he always justified as not a real moral issue in the final balance - the prior firebombing of Tokyo, which killed far more innocent civilians unnecessarily, having erased that moral-stain in his mind. It was something else. What was Oppie's monstrous but unspeakable sin? The three hundred innocent Afro-American sea-men blasted into oblivion at Port Chicago by an intrinsically hazardous weapon which should have never left the lab? Was it Oppie's insistence to have this device tested, despite the risk? We may never know.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 18:13:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7H1CqhW028682; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:13:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7H1CmpB028643; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:12:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:12:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43028E7E.6090209 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:10:22 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gravity is an Asymmetrical Effect of the ZPF References: <20050816125426.DYGC10832.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050816125426.DYGC10832.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's not even half new. I have papers from 8 years ago with the same basic theory. The earliest papers date from 1988. Fusion Facts had articles on this work back in the 1990's. The original idea comes from the soviet dissident scientist Andrei Sakharov back in the 1960's. When I argued in favor of Stochastic Electrodynamics at the Australian National University 6 years ago; it got me a high distinction from one teacher and a "don't bother to go on with theoretical physics" from another. Terry Blanton wrote: >In 1996 Haisch and Rueda published a ZPF explanation for intertial mass: > >http://www.calphysics.org/haisch/mercury.html > >They now say they have a similar explanation for gravitational mass: > >http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/ns-ijv081005.php > >"Rueda and Haisch argued that charged matter particles such as electrons and quarks are unceasingly jiggled around by the zero-point field. If they are at rest, or travelling at a constant speed with respect to the field, then the net effect of all this jiggling is zero: there is no force acting on the particle. But if a particle is accelerating, their calculations in 1994 showed that it would encounter more photons from the quantum vacuum in front than behind it (see Diagram). This would result in a net force pushing against the particle, giving rise to its inertial mass (Physical Review A, vol 49, p 678). > >But this work only explained one type of mass. Now the researchers say that the same process can explain gravitational mass. Imagine a massive body that warps the fabric of space-time around it. The object would also warp the zero-point field such that a particle in its vicinity would encounter more photons on the side away from the object than on the nearer side. This would result in a net force towards the massive object, so the particle would feel the tug of gravity. This would be its gravitational mass, or weight (Annalen der Physik, vol 14, p 479). " > >Anyone have a Newscientist subscription to fetch the whole article? > >http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7844&feedId=online-news_rss20 > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 18:46:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7H1kIt6013254; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:46:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7H1kGqe013236; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:46:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:46:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:46:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? In-reply-to: <4403b0$1bciud6 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The average joe (which includes me) as no intuitive feel for a KwH. Instead, the "Energizer Bunny" comes to mind. How far could an "Energized Car" travel on 10,000 AA batteries? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 22:21:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7H5JfBG026595; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:19:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7H5JV4f026482; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:19:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:19:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050816221239.02a21680 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:18:16 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Why are the oil companies making such huge profits? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_361218015==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_361218015==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This, I was asked by someone today, when discussing the apparent shortage of oil and price escalation that appears to be related to supply/demand. He referred to this snip: >1) Oil > >Big >Oil's obscene profits - Exxon Mobil, the world's largest publicly traded >oil company, announced a 32 percent boost in second-quarter profits, the >third-largest increase in company history. Royal Dutch Shell, the world's >third-largest oil company, reported second-quarter profits up 34 percent. >British Petroleum's were up 29 percent. ConocoPhillips, America's >third-largest, reported profits that skyrocketed by 51 percent. >(Cincinnati Post; Aug. 4) (Thanks Al Burns) >[Gouging us in the name of Peak Oil] This was my response. What say you, wise Vorts, to my comments? Maybe the oil companies are making huge profits because .... a)...they can b)...they are in it for the money, and not public welfare c) ... a simple economic factor: Supply low, demand high. But this variable is independent of the actual cost. Again, simple economics. Make (or build) a product for 1x cost, sell it for 2x cost. This is simple capitalism, and how we all dream of obtaining personal financial wealth. My guess is that their actual costs of raw materials and production have not increased a whole lot in recent years, and they have not inserted massive capital into development and exploration, so their costs have stayed somewhat flat. Alternatively, sales prices have gone up. Result: net profit increases. That's my theory. The attribution of "obscene" is not objective. People seem to think that the oil companies are beholden to society. This is senseless to me. They are beholden to their owners and shareholders. On the other hand, those of us who have somewhat of a utopian view, may feel strongly that energy should be a God-given resource, available as freely as the air, and perhaps, as freely as clean water should, ideally, be available. But, that too, is another matter. Independent of oil company profits, independent of peak oil. A does not equal B, B does not equal C, and neither does A equal C. That's my $.04 (inflation, you know) What I REALLY want to know is if ANYBODY in mainstream American press is saying ANYTHING about the concept of peak oil, not just production maximization, which is a smaller, tertiary aspect of peak oil. Steve --=====================_361218015==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This, I was asked by someone today, when discussing the apparent shortage of oil and price escalation that appears to be related to supply/demand. He referred to this snip:

1) Oil > Big Oil's obscene profits - Exxon Mobil, the world's largest publicly traded oil company, announced a 32 percent boost in second-quarter profits, the third-largest increase in company history. Royal Dutch Shell, the world's third-largest oil company, reported second-quarter profits up 34 percent. British Petroleum's were up 29 percent. ConocoPhillips, America's third-largest, reported profits that skyrocketed by 51 percent. (Cincinnati Post; Aug. 4) (Thanks Al Burns)
[Gouging us in the name of Peak Oil]


This was my response. What say you, wise Vorts, to my comments?

Maybe the oil companies are making huge profits because ....

a)...they can 
b)...they are in it for the money, and not public welfare
c) ... a simple economic factor: Supply low, demand high. But this variable is independent of the actual cost. Again, simple economics. Make (or build) a product for 1x cost, sell it for 2x cost. This is simple capitalism, and how we all dream of obtaining personal financial wealth. My guess is that their actual costs of raw materials and production have not increased a whole lot in recent years, and they have not inserted massive capital into development and exploration, so their costs have stayed somewhat flat. Alternatively, sales prices have gone up. Result: net profit increases.  That's my theory.

The attribution of "obscene" is not objective. People seem to think that the oil companies are beholden to society. This is senseless to me. They are beholden to their owners and shareholders. On the other hand, those of us who have somewhat of a utopian view, may feel strongly that energy should be a God-given resource, available as freely as the air, and perhaps, as freely as clean water should, ideally, be available. But, that too, is another matter. Independent of oil company profits, independent of peak oil. A does not equal B, B does not equal C, and neither does A equal C.

That's my $.04 (inflation, you know)

What I REALLY want to know is if ANYBODY in mainstream American press is saying ANYTHING about the concept of peak oil, not just production maximization, which is a smaller, tertiary aspect of peak oil. 

Steve

--=====================_361218015==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 16 23:12:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7H6CABi011915; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:12:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7H6C7No011895; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:12:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:12:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ONEtJYRlkk7FVYeiqzKr4BmvHZ58JorduXpslrf5/SegXzyRRnQS/BRr1HaRNgZpep0YQx5HFg789X8WYGYQjvWp0ceSMpTjajDQhd4HuSbtBSs9DN5kD2WQAOfZR6WUcjnCDB/DocAqu70AnoVIWNx2biGNWq/dzemI4wmzmr8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:11:44 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why are the oil companies making such huge profits? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050816221239.02a21680 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050816221239.02a21680 mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7H6BnY6011781 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: umm, yes, in teh basic model of capitalism, corporations ARE beholden to society. corps were not ALLOWED to exist in the good olde days of capitalism like they do now, becuase it was KNOWN they would wrok this way. a large corps ability to influence the market destroys the essence of pure capitalism and competition more than any government interference could. btw, when they drill on public land, recieve taxe benifits from the government, bailouts, loan money, contracts, pollute public skys, use publicly funded highways... yeah, they are beholden to the public. On 8/16/05, Steve Krivit wrote: > This, I was asked by someone today, when discussing the apparent shortage of > oil and price escalation that appears to be related to supply/demand. He > referred to this snip: > > 1) Oil > Big Oil's obscene profits - Exxon Mobil, the world's largest > publicly traded oil company, announced a 32 percent boost in second-quarter > profits, the third-largest increase in company history. Royal Dutch Shell, > the world's third-largest oil company, reported second-quarter profits up 34 > percent. British Petroleum's were up 29 percent. ConocoPhillips, America's > third-largest, reported profits that skyrocketed by 51 percent. (Cincinnati > Post; Aug. 4) (Thanks Al Burns) > [Gouging us in the name of Peak Oil] > > This was my response. What say you, wise Vorts, to my comments? > > Maybe the oil companies are making huge profits because .... > > a)...they can > b)...they are in it for the money, and not public welfare > c) ... a simple economic factor: Supply low, demand high. But this variable > is independent of the actual cost. Again, simple economics. Make (or build) > a product for 1x cost, sell it for 2x cost. This is simple capitalism, and > how we all dream of obtaining personal financial wealth. My guess is that > their actual costs of raw materials and production have not increased a > whole lot in recent years, and they have not inserted massive capital into > development and exploration, so their costs have stayed somewhat flat. > Alternatively, sales prices have gone up. Result: net profit increases. > That's my theory. > > The attribution of "obscene" is not objective. People seem to think that the > oil companies are beholden to society. This is senseless to me. They are > beholden to their owners and shareholders. On the other hand, those of us > who have somewhat of a utopian view, may feel strongly that energy should be > a God-given resource, available as freely as the air, and perhaps, as freely > as clean water should, ideally, be available. But, that too, is another > matter. Independent of oil company profits, independent of peak oil. A does > not equal B, B does not equal C, and neither does A equal C. > > That's my $.04 (inflation, you know) > > What I REALLY want to know is if ANYBODY in mainstream American press is > saying ANYTHING about the concept of peak oil, not just production > maximization, which is a smaller, tertiary aspect of peak oil. > > Steve > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 00:24:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7H7O8hV000490; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:24:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7H7O27P000457; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:24:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:24:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4302E5FD.9010706 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:23:41 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why are the oil companies making such huge profits? References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050816221239.02a21680 mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050816221239.02a21680 mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_oBfQ.A.FH.RYuADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can't fault your argument but several things should be noted. * Royal Dutch shell is also the largest solar power player and a very big portion of its profits come from solar cells on millions of thatched third world rooves. The Australian arm of the company claims that the solar section is carrying the oil section in terms of profitability. I don't know if that it true world wide. * Secondly with environmental pressure and the greenhouse pressure are adding to the cost of setting up new refinery facilities. There is now a great barrier to entry that prevents new players from entering the market. While the petrol stations are owned by the supplier they are able to block new players and new energy technologies. * Strong cross ownership in the past of oil and automotive companies, each with a lot of the others shares in their asset fortfolios and pension plans, tends to discourage non oil based automotive design. This situation is now in flux since the Exxon valdez incident. Losses forced the oil companies to sell key blocks of shared. The asian automotive inroads on to western markets has an impact on the car side. Things are shaken up but not to the point where power dynamics is changed. * Oil companies have a huge reserve asset they can claim, oil in the ground that they have rights to. Even when things go bad they can borrow against this asset to smooth cash flow. Most other industries can't claim resouces that are still under ground to the same extent. This will change radicly once CF is proven. The oil futures and the asset value of the remaining oil will change radicly. * Govenments see oil as stategic; we don't have solar tanks or fighters yet so shifting the country, any country, to an energy source that is incompatable with the defence infrastructure is seen as unwise. The pentagon is the oil industries biggest but quietist backer. The first fusion tank will change those equations overnight and the oil industry will be on its own. I'll have to do some checking for other points. Steve Krivit wrote: > This, I was asked by someone today, when discussing the apparent > shortage of oil and price escalation that appears to be related to > supply/demand. He referred to this snip: > >> 1) *Oil* * > Big >> Oil's obscene profits >> * >> - Exxon Mobil, the world's largest publicly traded oil company, >> announced a 32 percent boost in second-quarter profits, the >> third-largest increase in company history. Royal Dutch Shell, the >> world's third-largest oil company, reported second-quarter profits up >> 34 percent. British Petroleum's were up 29 percent. ConocoPhillips, >> America's third-largest, reported profits that skyrocketed by 51 >> percent. (/Cincinnati Post/; Aug. 4) (Thanks Al Burns) >> [Gouging us in the name of Peak Oil] > > > > This was my response. What say you, wise Vorts, to my comments? > > Maybe the oil companies are making huge profits because .... > > a)...they can > b)...they are in it for the money, and not public welfare > c) ... a simple economic factor: Supply low, demand high. But this > variable is independent of the actual cost. Again, simple economics. > Make (or build) a product for 1x cost, sell it for 2x cost. This is > simple capitalism, and how we all dream of obtaining personal > financial wealth. My guess is that their actual costs of raw materials > and production have not increased a whole lot in recent years, and > they have not inserted massive capital into development and > exploration, so their costs have stayed somewhat flat. Alternatively, > sales prices have gone up. Result: net profit increases. That's my > theory. > > The attribution of "obscene" is not objective. People seem to think > that the oil companies are beholden to society. This is senseless to > me. They are beholden to their owners and shareholders. On the other > hand, those of us who have somewhat of a utopian view, may feel > strongly that energy should be a God-given resource, available as > freely as the air, and perhaps, as freely as clean water should, > ideally, be available. But, that too, is another matter. Independent > of oil company profits, independent of peak oil. A does not equal B, B > does not equal C, and neither does A equal C. > > That's my $.04 (inflation, you know) > > What I REALLY want to know is if ANYBODY in mainstream American press > is saying ANYTHING about the concept of peak oil, not just production > maximization, which is a smaller, tertiary aspect of peak oil. > > Steve > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 02:10:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7H9A82u031820; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:10:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7H9A6o2031793; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:10:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:10:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:09:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Why are the oil companies making such huge profits Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oil is a commodity. There are lots of people in the world with money to purchase cars and fill them up with fuel. That accounts for most of the present pinch in supplies. Also, it's getting increasingly expensive to produce oil. The companies are drilling wells in the deep sea, and are developing oil reserves like the one in Canada which was previously too expensive to exploit. When my car's tank is empty, I glad that I can purchase more fuel. Those of you who got caught in the first oil crisis, will remember the flusteration of waiting in line to fill up, I think that it's better to let supply and demand work it's magic. If I don't drive to a job, I don't eat. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 04:16:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HBG0Z0005469; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:16:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HBFw2a005452; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:15:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:15:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=H3gOx77in6ynjwlFprpTsLg9PY84RfY40PfmPCiDioi9JUrP1Gm9WPKHBCDCbY3V; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058317101549450 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CO2 Heat Pump Effect in Aqueous OU Experiments? Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:15:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403614ca3955e140a648b6597e958e2695350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.245 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII CO2 is used as a Refrigerant (R744) Possibilities for a Heat-Operated Absorption System? http://www.lenntech.com/carbon-dioxide.htm Water solubility: 0.9 volume/volume 20 C Aquatic Carbon Cycle http://www.lenntech.com/carbon-cycle.htm Is the Electrolysis Calorimetry Loop/Atmospheric CO2 interaction making a heat pump? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

CO2 is used as a Refrigerant (R744)
 
Possibilities for a Heat-Operated Absorption System?
 
 
 
Water solubility: 0.9 volume/volume 20 C
 
Aquatic  Carbon Cycle    http://www.lenntech.com/carbon-cycle.htm
 
Is the Electrolysis Calorimetry Loop/Atmospheric CO2 interaction making a heat pump?
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 05:39:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HCcagJ005872; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:38:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HCcXCQ005839; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:38:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:38:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 8:38:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050817123809.DWY3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Harry Veeder > How far could an "Energized Car" travel on 10,000 AA batteries? About 10 miles: http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html 1 AA => 2.77 x 10^-4 kWhr From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 06:26:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HDQWDi024414; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:26:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HDQRFX024386; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:26:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:26:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Blah Blah the Sun Electric Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 9:26:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050817132605.ZDM3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems to be catching on: http://www.newswise.com/p/articles/view/?id=SUNIRON.UMR http://web.umr.edu/~om/ Checkout the tag number. Previously posted: http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/index.html? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 06:48:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HDlgot000700; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:47:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HDlfth000680; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:47:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:47:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Elemental Vortex Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 9:47:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050817134719.BKDN3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.physorg.com/news5816.html "The original periodic table, on which the rectangular design most people studied at school is based, was devised by the Russian chemistry professor Dimitri Mendeléev in 1869. Listing the elements according to increasing atomic weight, Mendeléev found that when arranged into horizontal rows, elements with similar properties appeared at regular intervals in the vertical columns. There have been numerous renditions of the table since, but most have stuck to the classic rectangular format. In his spare time Philip Stewart, a University Lecturer in Plant Science, set about creating a design that would both represent the continuityof the sequence of elements and be visually exciting. Inspired by a mural of the periodic table created by the artist Edgar Longman for the South Kensington Science Exhibition, part of the Festival of Britain held in 1951, Mr Stewart created an image in which the elements are set against a galaxy of stars. Instead of figuring in adjacent boxes, each element is represented by a colour-coded circle and all are connected in a spiral, at the centre of which is the neutron." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 06:48:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HDljp0000736; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:48:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HDliYR000724; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:47:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:47:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Elemental Vortex Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 9:47:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050817134722.BKEA3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.physorg.com/news5816.html "The original periodic table, on which the rectangular design most people studied at school is based, was devised by the Russian chemistry professor Dimitri Mendeléev in 1869. Listing the elements according to increasing atomic weight, Mendeléev found that when arranged into horizontal rows, elements with similar properties appeared at regular intervals in the vertical columns. There have been numerous renditions of the table since, but most have stuck to the classic rectangular format. In his spare time Philip Stewart, a University Lecturer in Plant Science, set about creating a design that would both represent the continuityof the sequence of elements and be visually exciting. Inspired by a mural of the periodic table created by the artist Edgar Longman for the South Kensington Science Exhibition, part of the Festival of Britain held in 1951, Mr Stewart created an image in which the elements are set against a galaxy of stars. Instead of figuring in adjacent boxes, each element is represented by a colour-coded circle and all are connected in a spiral, at the centre of which is the neutron." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 07:30:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HETMvv015930; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:29:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HETK4a015910; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:29:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:29:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:29:37 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Elemental Vortex In-reply-to: <20050817134719.BKDN3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7HET2E8015815 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cool. Harry Terry Blanton wrote: > http://www.physorg.com/news5816.html > > "The original periodic table, on which the rectangular design most people > studied at school is based, was devised by the Russian chemistry professor > Dimitri Mendeléev in 1869. Listing the elements according to increasing atomic > weight, Mendeléev found that when arranged into horizontal rows, elements with > similar properties appeared at regular intervals in the vertical columns. > There have been numerous renditions of the table since, but most have stuck to > the classic rectangular format. > > In his spare time Philip Stewart, a University Lecturer in Plant Science, set > about creating a design that would both represent the continuityof the > sequence of elements and be visually exciting. Inspired by a mural of the > periodic table created by the artist Edgar Longman for the South Kensington > Science Exhibition, part of the Festival of Britain held in 1951, Mr Stewart > created an image in which the elements are set against a galaxy of stars. > Instead of figuring in adjacent boxes, each element is represented by a > colour-coded circle and all are connected in a spiral, at the centre of which > is the neutron." > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 07:34:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HEXSpE017748; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:33:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HEXRJW017728; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:33:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:33:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tRP87VFR8A8ekN42AkZpvPBFrBzpjGpRolxnnRABgecLNLLVHAY7QY5+WpEO3emx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058317133314140 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: CO2 Heat Pump Effect in Aqueous OU Experiments? Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:33:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fa99845fc2055d6082f333be4049c7bb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.34 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Restricted Access. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109069382/ABSTRACT Published Online: 17 June 2004 Abstract: Received: 11 September 1974; Revised: 12 November 1974; Accepted: 13 November 1974 A thermodynamic framework has been established to calculate equilibrium vapor-liquid compositions for dilute aqueous solutions of one or more volatile weak electrolytes: ammonia, carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, sulfur dioxide, and hydrogen cyanide, in the temperature range 0° to 100°C and for liquid-phase concentrations from 10-4 to 1 or 2 molal. Binary electrolyte-water parameters are obtained from reduction of experimental data for single-solute solutions. Additional parameters required for multi-solute systems are estimated from correlations. These parameters, coupled with chemical equilibria, are used to predict multicomponent vapor-liquid equilibria. At a fixed temperature, either liquid-phase or vapor-phase compositions may be calculated if the composition of the other phase is known. Although the framework has no adjustable parameters for multisolute systems, predicted and observed equilibria are in good agreement for two ternary systems: ammonia-hydrogen sulfide-water and ammonia-carbon dioxide-water. http://www.uregina.ca/engg/co2/calorimetry.htm "Natural gas or flue gases purification require the removal of acidic impurities, carbon dioxide and hydrogen sulphide. The removal process of these acid gases requires the knowledge the solubility of the gases in the solvent and the enthalpy of absorption and desorption of the gases in the solvent. " The calorimeter used in this study is the C 80, a high-performance Calvet type calorimeter manufactured by Setaram (Lyon, France). The instrument allows a very large amount of applications in various fields to be performed. The instrument can be operated from ambient temperature to 300 °C and up to a pressure of 100 bars. It is equipped with a reversing mechanism and mixing vessels with membranes, liquid heat capacity cells. The calorimeter is equipped a with state of the art software for data collection and processing. The calorimeter is used to measure the heat of solution of carbon dioxide in physical solvents (TTEGDME), the heat capacity of aqueous solutions of alkanolamines and mixed solvents. Enthalpic data for mixing of water and other solvents are important to the understanding of the variation in molecular interaction between molecules. It will also be used to measure the heat of reaction of carbon dioxide with various alkanolamines and amine blends. There is a great need for new calorimetric data for a variety of systems of interest. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Restricted Access.
 
 
Published Online: 17 June 2004
 
Received: 11 September 1974; Revised: 12 November 1974; Accepted: 13 November 1974
A thermodynamic framework has been established to calculate equilibrium vapor-liquid compositions for dilute aqueous solutions of one or more volatile weak electrolytes: ammonia, carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, sulfur dioxide, and hydrogen cyanide, in the temperature range 0° to 100°C and for liquid-phase concentrations from 10-4 to 1 or 2 molal.
Binary electrolyte-water parameters are obtained from reduction of experimental data for single-solute solutions. Additional parameters required for multi-solute systems are estimated from correlations. These parameters, coupled with chemical equilibria, are used to predict multicomponent vapor-liquid equilibria. At a fixed temperature, either liquid-phase or vapor-phase compositions may be calculated if the composition of the other phase is known. Although the framework has no adjustable parameters for multisolute systems, predicted and observed equilibria are in good agreement for two ternary systems: ammonia-hydrogen sulfide-water and ammonia-carbon dioxide-water.
 

http://www.uregina.ca/engg/co2/calorimetry.htm

"Natural gas or flue gases purification require the removal of acidic impurities, carbon dioxide and hydrogen sulphide. The removal process of these acid gases requires the knowledge the solubility of the gases in the solvent and the enthalpy of absorption and desorption of the gases in the solvent. "

The calorimeter used in this study is the C 80, a high-performance Calvet type calorimeter manufactured by Setaram (Lyon, France). The instrument allows a very large amount of applications in various fields to be performed. The instrument can be operated from ambient temperature to 300 °C and up to a pressure of 100 bars. It is equipped with a reversing mechanism and mixing vessels with membranes, liquid heat capacity cells. The calorimeter is equipped a with state of the art software for data collection and processing.

The calorimeter is used to measure the heat of solution of carbon dioxide in physical solvents (TTEGDME), the heat capacity of aqueous solutions of alkanolamines and mixed solvents. Enthalpic data for mixing of water and other solvents are important to the understanding of the variation in molecular interaction between molecules. It will also be used to measure the heat of reaction of carbon dioxide with various alkanolamines and amine blends. There is a great need for new calorimetric data for a variety of systems of interest.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 07:41:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HEefic021230; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:40:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HEedKc021212; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:40:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:40:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: IEEE Article on Space Elevator Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:40:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050817144017.CLYC3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting description at the end of the result of a terrorist attack on the ribbon: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/aug05/0805spac.html ABOUT THE AUTHOR Bradley Carl Edwards spent 11 years on the staff of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, leading advanced technology efforts for lunar missions and a Europa orbiter mission. Since leaving Los Alamos, Edwards has led development of the space elevator, organizing conferences and conducting research. He is the founder and president of Carbon Designs Inc., in Dallas, which is developing high-strength materials for a range of applications, from aerospace structures to sports and recreational products. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 09:49:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HGn1Wi010025; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:49:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HGmwYi009987; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:48:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:48:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:47:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: spiral periodic table Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Resent-Message-ID: <3GaEpB.A.-bC.6p2ADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Great design! It reminds me of Walter Russel's periodic table, www.philosophy.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 13:00:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HJxhdd004987; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:00:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HJxfmE004967; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:59:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:59:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:59:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: space elevator Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've always regarded this idea as science fiction wearing scientific clothes. I noticed with interest that the author is a credentialed scientist. I've often wondered what would happen if the "cable" parted, I suppose if you were to build it over the ocean, the answer would be splash. This location would be a good idea, particularly when the liability consequences were taken into consideration. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 16:09:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HN8r1k000654; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:09:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HN8V1E000518; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:08:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:08:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01c201c5a380$8a35a500$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: D2Fusion Has a New Website Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:08:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BF_01C5A35F.02CE1CD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BF_01C5A35F.02CE1CD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks like D2Fusion is upgrading their website. They profile their = staff and even advertise for jobs. Hopefully we'll be seeing more = developments from D2 now that they've been acquired by Solar Energy = Limited. http://www.d2fusion.com/index.htm ------=_NextPart_000_01BF_01C5A35F.02CE1CD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Looks like D2Fusion is upgrading their = website.  They=20 profile their staff and even advertise for jobs.  Hopefully we'll = be seeing=20 more developments from D2 now that they've been acquired by Solar Energy = Limited.
 
http://www.d2fusion.com/index.= htm
------=_NextPart_000_01BF_01C5A35F.02CE1CD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 16:34:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HNY84X013003; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:34:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HNY2hY012937; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:34:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:34:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SrHFhp33CCEy6dSBnsMIh3xXsvLGeCb5DIsIpQXQdA6jOBCuznlX9QrxANyJ2oBjwxafGqBFw2DahZfrqJjMGYsf6UTrsl76Hkq1bW9OJTghJOaTc8l3TTn3aJgk/t/lOxXkvsHDUN+lskp1A3JJbqdoDLqVhPUEYAwHqh+dHrM= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:33:32 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevator In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7HNXas1012510 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: splash nothing. th evelocity with wich it would hit, you would cause a massive tsunami. id like to note, one of the first articles i ever read on the subject was a science fact piece in destinies, november 79 iirc, by isaac asimov (a true scientist as well as writer) in which he went over the equations of exaclty how strong a substance we would need to build one properly, and when it was likely to appear. very interesting read, i suggest digging it up if you can. On 8/17/05, thomas malloy wrote: > I've always regarded this idea as science fiction wearing scientific > clothes. I noticed with interest that the author is a credentialed > scientist. I've often wondered what would happen if the "cable" > parted, I suppose if you were to build it over the ocean, the answer > would be splash. This location would be a good idea, particularly > when the liability consequences were taken into consideration. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 16:38:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7HNbena014618; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:37:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7HNbZsl014574; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:37:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:37:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01cf01c5a384$9a00c740$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:37:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01CC_01C5A363.12A7BE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Subject: D2Fusion, Inc. News By Late 2005 Resent-Message-ID: <_M6xvB.A.pjD._o8ADB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01CC_01C5A363.12A7BE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Media Primer on "Cold Fusion" News Given the almost unimaginable economic, social and political impacts the = commercialization of D2 fusion technologies will have upon our world, = journalistic interest in its infancy phase has been understandably = quizzical but keen. The following selection of articles illustrate most = aspects of the controversy and the so-called "conventional wisdom" = today. By late 2005 D2Fusion, Inc. will be making extraordinary news of our = own, but in the meantime we recommend the readings below to show how far = the field has come in the very recent past. http://www.d2fusion.com/d2fmedia.htm ------=_NextPart_000_01CC_01C5A363.12A7BE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Media Primer on "Cold Fusion" News

Given the almost unimaginable economic, social and political = impacts the=20 commercialization of D2 fusion technologies will have upon our world,=20 journalistic interest in its infancy phase has been understandably = quizzical but=20 keen. The following selection of articles illustrate most aspects of the = controversy and the so-called "conventional wisdom" today.

By = late 2005=20 D2Fusion, Inc. will be making extraordinary news of our own, but in the = meantime=20 we recommend the readings below to show how far the field has come in = the very=20 recent past.
 
http://www.d2fusion.com/d2f= media.htm
------=_NextPart_000_01CC_01C5A363.12A7BE00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 17:00:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7I00JQH024324; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:00:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7I00HYw024298; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:00:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:00:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050817165853.028d8c18 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:59:32 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Why are the oil companies making such huge profits? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050816221239.02a21680 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hmm.. good points. Quasi-private, quasi-public. Thanks. s At 11:11 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote: >umm, yes, in teh basic model of capitalism, corporations ARE beholden >to society. corps were not ALLOWED to exist in the good olde days of >capitalism like they do now, becuase it was KNOWN they would wrok this >way. a large corps ability to influence the market destroys the >essence of pure capitalism and competition more than any government >interference could. > >btw, when they drill on public land, recieve taxe benifits from the >government, bailouts, loan money, contracts, pollute public skys, use >publicly funded highways... > >yeah, they are beholden to the public. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 19:31:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7I2VA9a025445; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7I2V8xY025422; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:31:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: pee-powered battery To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scientists develop pee-powered battery Urine activation seen useful for cheap disposable healthcare tests By Bjorn Carey Updated: 6:50 p.m. ET Aug. 16, 2005 Scientists have developed a way to turn pee into electricity. And there's plenty where that came from, they point out. Cheap, disposable, and renewable, urine-powered batteries may be the perfect power source for disposable healthcare test kits called biochips, the researchers say. more: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8973626/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 19:37:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7I2bJaU028371; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:37:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7I2bIgL028348; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:37:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:37:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:37:37 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? In-reply-to: <20050817123809.DWY3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >> From: Harry Veeder > >> How far could an "Energized Car" travel on 10,000 AA batteries? > > About 10 miles: > > http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html > > 1 AA => 2.77 x 10^-4 kWhr > That is further than I guessed. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 23:46:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7I6jqKN030655; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:46:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7I6jmiQ030625; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:45:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:45:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:45:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The Space Elevator Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted And Leaking responded; splash nothing. th evelocity with wich it would hit, you would cause a massive tsunami. Big splash, yes, tsunami no. The tsunami is the result of the undulation of the ocean bottom. Calculating what would happen if the cable parted would be one for Jones. id like to note, one of the first articles i ever read on the subject was a science fact piece in destinies, november 79 iirc, by isaac asimov (a true scientist as well as writer) in which he went over the equations of exaclty how strong a substance we would need to build one properly, and when it was likely to appear. very interesting read, i suggest digging it up if you can. What is IIRC? On 8/17/05, thomas malloy wrote: > I've always regarded this idea as science fiction wearing scientific > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 01:38:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7I8bqa2007220; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:38:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7I8bhck007173; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:37:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:37:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050818083714.009bae4c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:37:14 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Space Elevator Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:45 am 18/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >What is IIRC? If I Recall Correctly, IIRC 8-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 06:18:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IDISD7005393; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:18:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IDIOMk005377; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:18:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:18:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: pee-powered battery Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:18:06 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a3f7$46059df0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7IDI7JU005280 Resent-Message-ID: <1GeCN.A.9TB.gqIBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think this more than adequately solves the EV battery issue... Having just attempted a family vacation with small children and finding myself seemingly stopping at every highway exit along the way for potty breaks I can think of no better renewable and readily available fuel source... 8^) -j -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:31 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: pee-powered battery Scientists develop pee-powered battery Urine activation seen useful for cheap disposable healthcare tests By Bjorn Carey Updated: 6:50 p.m. ET Aug. 16, 2005 Scientists have developed a way to turn pee into electricity. And there's plenty where that came from, they point out. Cheap, disposable, and renewable, urine-powered batteries may be the perfect power source for disposable healthcare test kits called biochips, the researchers say. more: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8973626/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 06:40:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IDe4tJ013017; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:40:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IDe2fv012996; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:40:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:40:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PMbTIPqXARxlRgQTkisD4AZU6TjdBkARE6nAvy2FzC/rkLNRHSWElerqqADbJML1f7AOd1Y7wSLwI9lYd6Z1vyMP6fLTp3mqJetDF6VGtbmMT8croKewGTfxpF+sIDzBOpwuLtsGGv0BLw3UVDsnylC0fun7KzuUJ45cO9reyF4= ; Message-ID: <20050818133934.89295.qmail web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:39:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: space elevator To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It would entirely depend on how high the break in the cable was, the top half hangs from orbit, so would fly off into space instead of falling. --- thomas malloy wrote: > I've always regarded this idea as science fiction > wearing scientific > clothes. I noticed with interest that the author is > a credentialed > scientist. I've often wondered what would happen if > the "cable" > parted, I suppose if you were to build it over the > ocean, the answer > would be splash. This location would be a good idea, > particularly > when the liability consequences were taken into > consideration. > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 06:54:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IDs3cC020977; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:54:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IDrx6t020901; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:53:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:53:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=K6dKhjq56AIa+ycAVNMyTPXA2+j3vwkH1EUQTOdcSx4BaryILbu2w9wAs56fUOWe; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058418125338990 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:53:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402709be79494f9cf741277feaa7288648350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.196 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 1, The Low Heat Combustion of H2 (in air) is 120 Megajoules per Kilogram. 2, The energy required to get to 18,000 mph (8.0 Km/sec, Mach 24.6 ) earth orbit is 32 Megajoules/kilogram. 3, The B-70 Valkyrie bomber (120,000 Kg) had sustained flight at (Mach 3, 1.0 Km/sec) in the 1960s with 6 air-breathing Turbojet engines 70,000 - 100,000 ft altitude. Proposed: Runway to 100,000 ft (Mach 4, 1.3 Km/sec) using air-breathing 20,000 Kg (20 Tonne) 0 to Mach 4 "Launch Truck" Jet Fuel Powered for 2 hour flight, max, with 100,000 Kg (100 Tonne Cargo) *the Space Shuttle weight is 118 Tonnes*. The Cargo load is comprised of' a Mach 4 (1.3 Km/sec) to Mach 12 (4 Km/sec) Scramjet with LH2 fuel (4,000 to 8,000 Kg , 4 to 8 tonnes required), And: LH2- LOX fueled Low Earth Orbit Insertion Rocket and Payload minus the Scramjet and 4 - 8 tonnes of used H2. This should be better/cheaper than the existing 4,300,000 lb ~ 2,000 Tonne Shuttle Launch Setup with it's two 500 Tonne each Solid Fuel Boosters & the LH2 -LOX External Fuel Tank with all of it's problems. Note that the heat of combustion of Hydrogen (H2) is nearly twice the energy required for 11 Km/sec earth escape velocity and almost 4 times the energy required for low earth orbit which suggests that hydrogen fuel can be used for Powered Re-Entry Braking using O2 from the upper stratosphere. It seems that the 1960s world political climate and race to get a man on the moon "by the end of the decade" took priority over practical space flight. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

1, The Low Heat Combustion of H2 (in air) is 120 Megajoules per Kilogram.
 
 2, The energy required to get to 18,000 mph (8.0 Km/sec, Mach 24.6 ) earth orbit is 32 Megajoules/kilogram.
 
3, The B-70 Valkyrie bomber (120,000 Kg) had sustained flight at (Mach 3,  1.0 Km/sec) in the 1960s with 6 air-breathing Turbojet engines 70,000 - 100,000 ft altitude.
 
Proposed:
 
Runway to 100,000 ft (Mach 4,  1.3 Km/sec) using air-breathing 20,000 Kg (20 Tonne)
0 to Mach 4 "Launch Truck" Jet Fuel Powered for 2 hour flight, max,  with 100,000 Kg (100 Tonne Cargo) *the Space Shuttle weight is 118 Tonnes*.
 
The Cargo  load is comprised of' a Mach 4  (1.3 Km/sec) to Mach 12 (4 Km/sec) Scramjet with LH2 fuel (4,000 to 8,000 Kg , 4 to 8 tonnes required),
 
And: LH2- LOX  fueled Low Earth Orbit Insertion Rocket  and Payload minus the Scramjet and 4 - 8 tonnes of used H2.    
 
This should be better/cheaper than the existing 4,300,000 lb  ~ 2,000 Tonne Shuttle
Launch Setup with it's two 500 Tonne each Solid Fuel Boosters & the LH2 -LOX External Fuel Tank with all  of it's problems. 
 
Note that the heat of combustion of Hydrogen (H2)  is nearly twice the energy required for
11 Km/sec earth escape velocity and almost 4 times the energy required for low earth orbit
which suggests that hydrogen fuel can be used for Powered Re-Entry Braking using
O2 from the upper stratosphere.
 
It seems that the 1960s world political climate and race to get a man on the moon
"by the end of the decade" took priority over practical space flight.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 07:32:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IEW2Jv013710; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:32:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IEVw5f013662; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:31:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:31:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:31:37 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a401$8b542fc0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7IEVc38013499 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Of course making the general assumption that the mass of 10k batteries (approx 570lbs) would have no impact on performance... To truly compare apples to apples I think a new unit of measure is required. It's always nice to frame things in familiar terms, but there are too many variables that need to be considered to do that in this case. How about: (energy density / work) / (pollution quotient) = Clean Work per Hour (CWPH) ED = energy potential of the fuel relative to weight & volume W = power transfer efficiency per hour of typical operation PQ = the sum of defined negative byproducts from origin to point source With this unit you should be able to reasonably compare the space shuttle to a Prius... 8^) -j -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:38 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Terry Blanton wrote: >> From: Harry Veeder > >> How far could an "Energized Car" travel on 10,000 AA batteries? > > About 10 miles: > > http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.htm > l > > 1 AA => 2.77 x 10^-4 kWhr > That is further than I guessed. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 07:33:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IEWoWC014196; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:33:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IEWgME014109; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:32:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:32:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:32:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050818143207.TKT11342.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > It seems that the 1960s world political climate and race to get a man on the moon > "by the end of the decade" took priority over practical space flight. So what is the excuse for Shuttle? The original design was a two staged aircraft, one boosted to near space and the other rocketed into orbit. Both landed on conventional airfields. Guess that's where Burt got his idea, eh? I understand he has cut a deal for his "Virginity". ;-) "Wanna take a ride?" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 07:49:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IEn5LF021385; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:49:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IEn1Bw021316; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:49:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:49:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=TafidQCRBLAfzWTUo/Ckidol6M4XfoT6YZH4zn/rRdYfaTTzT5deXL00CqtMzCOZDJjEf/A4Qx6erRX3NNPaRzbxtVf6saXDuQb29/KMo+HXROAO+kfQdaylXeylANNCKjEpeveHOvxEAzapJccenOupvyQ0Jx1aIo8uqRjZL8M= ; Message-ID: <20050818144830.10422.qmail web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:48:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: space elevator To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050818133934.89295.qmail web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Posted before I RTFA (Read The F'n Article) His design calls for almost half the weight of the system to be in a counterweight, so all of the ribbon above the break (wherever it is) would fly off into space. The rest is so light that terminal velocity would be minimal. Now Terminal velocity for the climbing rig situated just below the cut would be another matter entirely. --- Merlyn wrote: > It would entirely depend on how high the break in > the > cable was, the top half hangs from orbit, so would > fly > off into space instead of falling. > > --- thomas malloy wrote: > > > I've always regarded this idea as science fiction > > wearing scientific > > clothes. I noticed with interest that the author > is > > a credentialed > > scientist. I've often wondered what would happen > if > > the "cable" > > parted, I suppose if you were to build it over the > > ocean, the answer > > would be splash. This location would be a good > idea, > > particularly > > when the liability consequences were taken into > > consideration. > > > > > > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > > > ____________________________________________________ > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 07:50:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IEnuv9022051; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:50:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IEnrYt022014; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:49:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:49:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: Methane Clathrates Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:49:27 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a404$08ab84d0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7IEnTJ0021504 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The artic permafrost release of methane clathrates seems to have most intelligent people rightfully concerned, but what can be done to make lemonade from this? Is this a harvestable fuel supply that can be channeled into fuel cells to generate electricity? Seems there is enough of it to solve our energy concerns if it can be tapped in such a manner.... http://ethomas.web.wesleyan.edu/ees123/clathrate.htm http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/gas-hydrates/title.html -john From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 07:52:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IEppLc025208; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:52:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IEpnUW025156; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:51:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:51:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:51:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050818145127.JVRT8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Steck" > Of course making the general assumption that the mass of 10k batteries > (approx 570lbs) would have no impact on performance... Probably not far from the weight of normal EV batteries. > > To truly compare apples to apples I think a new unit of measure is required. > It's always nice to frame things in familiar terms, but there are too many > variables that need to be considered to do that in this case. > > How about: > (energy density / work) / (pollution quotient) = Clean Work per Hour (CWPH) > > ED = energy potential of the fuel relative to weight & volume > W = power transfer efficiency per hour of typical operation > PQ = the sum of defined negative byproducts from origin to point source > > With this unit you should be able to reasonably compare the space shuttle to > a Prius... 8^) I like it; but, the byproducts vary widely. You need to normalize them based on environmental impact. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 08:02:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IF1eiG030022; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:01:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IF1cXD029995; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:01:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:01:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Methane Clathrates Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:01:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050818150117.KEQP8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Steck" > The artic permafrost release of methane clathrates seems to have most > intelligent people rightfully concerned Oh, it's filtered to much lower ranks lately, the US Senate:-) http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/17/MTFH55800_2005-08-17_23-12-31_HO783557.html or http://tinyurl.com/cmrpk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 08:21:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IFL0uB010715; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:21:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IFKvBj010662; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:20:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:20:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:21:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? In-reply-to: <20050818145127.JVRT8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >> From: "John Steck" > >> Of course making the general assumption that the mass of 10k batteries >> (approx 570lbs) would have no impact on performance... > > Probably not far from the weight of normal EV batteries. >> >> To truly compare apples to apples I think a new unit of measure is required. >> It's always nice to frame things in familiar terms, but there are too many >> variables that need to be considered to do that in this case. >> >> How about: >> (energy density / work) / (pollution quotient) = Clean Work per Hour (CWPH) >> >> ED = energy potential of the fuel relative to weight & volume >> W = power transfer efficiency per hour of typical operation >> PQ = the sum of defined negative byproducts from origin to point source >> >> With this unit you should be able to reasonably compare the space shuttle to >> a Prius... 8^) > > I like it; but, the byproducts vary widely. You need to normalize them based > on environmental impact. > One CWPH = One Hop (as in a bunny hop). ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 08:27:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IFQZR1015439; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:26:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IFQXuM015383; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:26:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:26:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006901c5a409$2247a9f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050818145127.JVRT8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:25:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of that "one good battery" http://www.blacklightpower.com/battery.shtml 500 times better performance (energy density) than lithium ion, but alas .... vaporware. What advanced battery isn't vaporware, these days. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 08:33:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IFX4Eq019189; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:33:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IFX3HZ019165; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:33:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:33:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:33:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Kowalski's summary of paper by Szpak et al To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ludwik Kowalski's summary of paper by Szpak et al: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/250szpak.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 08:58:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IFvtMx031829; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:58:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IFvrTQ031801; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XTtMAxjmcQe+GQ+f95J65gfgXdRna6u7fK+4CCYJgehWyMM1bA2hZT80S6lgqv3/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058418145720910 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:57:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b46dc5ba825112560725c124be4f164f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.7 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good deal, Terry. Who is Burt? I'm a bit fuzzy this morning. :-) Developing ICBM technology for the Cold War gave Dr. Wernher Von Braun (Huntsville, Propulsion) and Dr. Ernst Steinhoff (White Sands, Guidance) their chance to finish what they started with the V-1 and V-2 rockets. http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/booknotes/booknotes-icbm.html Dr. Steinhoff got involved in desalinization of the "ocean" of brackish water under the White Sands Missile Range (using biomass energy) when we collaborated after he retired in the mid 1970s. He told me about the errant rocket episode, it landed in a cemetery in Mexico. His heavy foot on the gas pedal of his Mercedes did him in and he died in a nursing home in Las cruces NM. BTW, If the German War Machine had concentrated their effort on Jet aircraft instead of rockets, WW II might've played differently. Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Terry Blanton > To: > Date: 8/18/05 9:33:10 AM > Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. > > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > It seems that the 1960s world political climate and race to get a man on the moon > > "by the end of the decade" took priority over practical space flight. > > So what is the excuse for Shuttle? The original design was a two staged > aircraft, one boosted to near space and the other rocketed into orbit. Both > landed on conventional airfields. > > Guess that's where Burt got his idea, eh? I understand he has cut a deal for > his "Virginity". ;-) > > "Wanna take a ride?" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 10:02:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IH2UYh006129; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:02:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IH2SV1006110; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:02:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:02:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:02:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050818170202.PHJJ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > Good deal, Terry. Who is Burt? I'm a bit fuzzy this morning. :-) Oh, sorry. I have a two hour head start on you here. I was speaking of Burt Rutan of Scaled Composites whose White Knight jet carried Spaceship One into "space" winning the X-Prize. He just announced a venture, Virgin Galactic, with Virgin Airlines's Sir Richard Branson to cart folks into space for $100k ticket. http://www.scaled.com/news/2005-07-27_branson_rutan_spaceship_company.htm >> "Wanna take a ride?" S.R. Hadden (John Hurt) "Contact" http://www.turning-pages.com/contact/journey.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 10:31:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IHVRT7018279; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:31:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IHVPeG018262; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:31:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:31:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:31:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050818173101.QRXX8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <2oFGi.A.RdE.tXMBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > >> "Wanna take a ride?" > > S.R. Hadden (John Hurt) "Contact" > > http://www.turning-pages.com/contact/journey.htm I guess I should explain this somewhat vague reference also. S.R. Hadden is said to represent Robert Bigelow just as Ellie (Jodie Foster) represents Jill Tartar of SETI. Now, Bigelow has recently pulled funding from the National Institute of Discovery Science: http://www.nidsci.org/ to fund his space hotel venture: http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/ So, it's not inconceivable that Virgin Galactic and Bigelow Aerospace could do what Sir Clarke envisioned in 2001, albeit to a lesser degree. (I think the orbital space plane in 2001 had a Pan Am logo, tho.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 10:37:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IHacXf020574; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:36:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IHabMi020541; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:36:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:36:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00bc01c5a41b$51ea50b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Kowalski's summary of paper by Szpak et al Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:36:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C5A3E0.A529A9A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C5A3E0.A529A9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Harry Veeder"=20 =20 > Ludwik Kowalski's summary of paper by Szpak et al: > http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/250szpak.html Like most of Kowalski's analyses, this one is as informative as reading = the original paper, especially since it adds one very important element, = which might have been missed otherwise: "During the main experiment the cell was in the electric field of a = parallel plate capacitor (field of ~ 2000 V/cm). The role of the = external electric field is not clear to me; the authors say it was = imposed to created conditions favoring nuclear reactions. This reminded = me of an experiment (D. Letts et al.) in which a laser beam was used to = stimulate the cathode." One big question, relating to Steve Krivit's quest for documented 100% = reproducibility in a given *type* of LENR experiment is: "Does adding an = electric field convert less-than 100% reliability into an a fully = reproducible process"? ... at least in regard to CT (cold = transmutation).... I am not saying that it does, but anecdotally there are certainly a lot = of recent papers where reproducibility "seems" to be enhanced by the = addition of an external electric field. Are there any papers or = anecdotal reports of the "failure to reproduce" in experiments where an = external electric field has been used (in addition to electrolysis)? Jones BTW taking this observation of Kowalski to the next level of = practicality... are there "free" sources of that kind of electric field? = Actually this particular requirement is not large, as electric fields = go, but does it need to be coherent? Probably. Hmmm....concentrated solar energy will provide that kind of electric = field (~ 2000 V/cm) as will infrared (heat) but not the coherency. = Actually you could get that kind of "free" field from the exhaust = manifold of an auto engine....and as for coherency....? Remember the Sandia Photo-lattice? My pick for neglected technology of = the decade. What the photolattice does is to convert low grade heat into coherent IR = light, and very efficiently. "Coherency" is the key to efficiency. When trying to rate a wide range of "enabling technologies" in terms of = unrealized "potential," the newsbyte that seems now to have had the = greatest easily-realizable "potential," to a wide swath of alternative = energy research could be this technology of the "photolattice" but has the technology now gone stagnant? I wish = someone at Sandia or Stanford could answer that one. Here is the = reference: "A Novel Photolattice with Extraordinary Properties" By Neil Savage http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/wonews/oct03/1003phot.html "A device from Sandia emits infrared radiation at a fixed wavelength and = with a conversion efficiency that appears to defy Planck's law" ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C5A3E0.A529A9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message ----- =
From: "Harry Veeder" 
 
> Ludwik Kowalski's = summary of paper=20 by Szpak et al:
> http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/250szpak.html
 
Like most of Kowalski's analyses, this = one is as=20 informative as reading the original paper, especially since it adds one = very=20 important element, which might have been missed otherwise:
 
"During=20 the main experiment the cell was in the electric field of a parallel = plate=20 capacitor (field of ~ 2000 V/cm). The role of the external electric = field is not=20 clear to me; the authors say it was imposed to created conditions = favoring=20 nuclear reactions. This reminded me of an experiment (D. Letts et al.) = in which=20 a laser beam was used to stimulate the cathode."
 
 
One big question, relating to Steve = Krivit's quest=20 for documented 100% reproducibility in a given *type* of LENR experiment = is:=20 "Does adding an electric field convert less-than 100% reliability into = an a=20 fully reproducible process"?  ... at least in regard to CT = (cold=20 transmutation)....
 
I am not saying that it does, but = anecdotally there=20 are certainly a lot of recent papers where reproducibility "seems" to be = enhanced by the addition of an external electric field. Are there any = papers or=20 anecdotal reports of the "failure to reproduce" in experiments where an = external=20 electric field has been used (in addition to electrolysis)?
 
Jones
 
BTW taking this observation of = Kowalski to the=20 next level of practicality... are there "free" sources of that kind of = electric=20 field? Actually this particular requirement is not large, as = electric=20 fields go, but does it need to be coherent? Probably.
 
Hmmm....concentrated solar energy will = provide that=20 kind of electric field (~ 2000 V/cm) as will infrared (heat) but not the = coherency. Actually you could get that kind of "free" field from the = exhaust=20 manifold of an auto engine....and as for coherency....?
 
Remember the Sandia Photo-lattice? My = pick for=20 neglected technology of the decade.
 
What the = photolattice does is=20 to convert low grade heat into coherent IR light, and very efficiently.=20 "Coherency" is the key to efficiency.

When trying to rate a wide = range of=20 "enabling technologies" in terms of unrealized "potential," the newsbyte = that=20 seems now to have had the greatest easily-realizable "potential," to a = wide=20 swath of alternative energy research could be this technology
of the=20 "photolattice" but has the technology now gone stagnant? I wish someone = at=20 Sandia or Stanford could answer that one. Here is the = reference:

"A Novel=20 Photolattice with Extraordinary Properties"
By Neil=20 Savage

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/wonews/oct03/1003phot.= html

"A=20 device from Sandia emits infrared radiation at a fixed wavelength and = with a=20 conversion efficiency that appears to defy Planck=92s = law"

 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C5A3E0.A529A9A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 10:45:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IHjPe4024401; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:45:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IHjNVK024368; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:45:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:45:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:44:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: vaporware batteries Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones wrote; Speaking of that "one good battery" http://www.blacklightpower.com/battery.shtml 500 times better performance (energy density) than lithium ion, but alas .... vaporware. What advanced battery isn't vaporware, these days. I assume that the Aluminium Battery does what the inventor says it does. The BLP Battery, OTOH, I want to see work. I would seem to me that fuel cell would be a better name than battery. Question to Mike Carrell, have you seen the BLP Battery work? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 10:47:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IHkiSJ025031; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:46:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IHkghr025006; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:46:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:46:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=QKam9LeXM4IjsJ2/viT3Ma0m44iLZ3vWxY4Pb92YYEizO5KBOQUWy6mK6Huoghgv; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058418164546450 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:45:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94004018c73cc536c8de2c6ecc51e13ad3d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.202 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks, Terry. I should've known. :-) Here's an off-list note I got from a ex-NASA- ex-Vortex-l member: ............................................................................ ..... " On your last post - Harry Stine has been around for decades - I think he may even have worked at White Sands around the time I was there for 6 months in 1957/1958. I seem to recall the WS guys talking about him. His ICBM notes you sent are really interesting!" ............................................................................ ........ In retrospect, after reading about Dr. Ernst Steinhoff's "Wiring Problems" outlined on G. Harry Stine's book, ICBMs: http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/booknotes/booknotes-icbm.html "Pg. 113-114 On May 29, 1947, a V-2 with a guidance system designed by Dr. Ernst Steinhoff (who had guided the ill-fated German V-2 that had landed in Sweden and wound up in England for study) literally was wired up with wires crossed, and instead of heading up the range to the north, headed south, landing in a cemetary on the outskirts of Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, almost causing an international incident. The US Army arrived a couple of hours later, "enterprising Mexicans were selling any old piece of scrap metal they could find and claiming it was V-2 debris." No further launchers were made until proper range-safety procedures were developed." I'm glad he didn't hire me when I applied for a job there working on the SCR 584 Radar (3 years military & civilian experience) in the fall of 1954. I got in a few years of college, plus ( OJT ) and 15 years of R&D and three patents at Sandia Labs instead. :-) Frederick > > From: Terry Blanton > > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > Good deal, Terry. Who is Burt? I'm a bit fuzzy this morning. :-) > > Oh, sorry. I have a two hour head start on you here. > > I was speaking of Burt Rutan of Scaled Composites whose White Knight jet carried Spaceship One into "space" winning the X-Prize. > > He just announced a venture, Virgin Galactic, with Virgin Airlines's Sir Richard Branson to cart folks into space for $100k ticket. > > http://www.scaled.com/news/2005-07-27_branson_rutan_spaceship_company.htm > > >> "Wanna take a ride?" > > S.R. Hadden (John Hurt) "Contact" > > http://www.turning-pages.com/contact/journey.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 11:26:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IILkcD009416; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:22:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IILeBt009341; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:21:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:21:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050818111053.02989c08 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:20:50 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Kowalski's summary of paper by Szpak et al In-Reply-To: <00bc01c5a41b$51ea50b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <00bc01c5a41b$51ea50b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_494568109==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <82GgjD.A.5RC.0GNBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_494568109==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >One big question, relating to Steve Krivit's quest for documented 100% >reproducibility in a given *type* of LENR experiment Minor clarification. Such is not my quest. Uh-oh. Now having flashbacks to Monty Python... "My quest is to seek the Holy Grail!" But seriously folks, reproducibility is no longer a focus of mine. An effect that happens "more often than not" is good enough for Richard Garwin and it's good enough for me. If it's not good enough for skeptical observers, that's their problem -- and their loss because it's used a straw man argument to dismiss the recognition of a new science phenomenon. And I don't waste my breath on people who are listening-impaired who play "straw man" games. s --=====================_494568109==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
One big question, relating to Steve Krivit's quest for documented 100% reproducibility in a given *type* of LENR experiment


Minor clarification.

Such is not my quest. Uh-oh. Now having flashbacks to Monty Python... "My quest is to seek the Holy Grail!"

But seriously folks, reproducibility is no longer a focus of mine. An effect that happens "more often than not" is good enough for Richard Garwin and it's good enough for me.

 If it's not good enough for skeptical observers, that's their problem -- and their loss because it's used a straw man argument to dismiss the recognition of a new science phenomenon.

And I don't waste my breath on people who are listening-impaired who play "straw man" games.

s










--=====================_494568109==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 11:29:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IIOQ1X010538; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:24:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IIONOD010513; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:24:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:24:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:23:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: d2fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I visited their site. Does anyone know if they are doing anything other than hosting a website and attempting to raise capital? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 11:36:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IIW8If014256; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:32:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IIW6Jf014234; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:32:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:32:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:31:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: map of the universe Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1087732586==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <6I-b1C.A.WeD.mQNBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1087732586==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The map is 15 billion light years across. This gives new meaning to big structures, eh? http://www.anzwers.org/free/universe/universe.html I shortened the URL down to the anzwers.org , their rates for hosting look pretty cheap. Now if I just had a website to post. --============_-1087732586==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" map of the universe
The map is 15 billion light years across. This gives new meaning to big structures, eh?
 http://www.anzwers.org/free/universe/universe.html
I shortened the URL down to the anzwers.org , their rates for hosting look pretty cheap. Now if I just had a website to post.
--============_-1087732586==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 11:50:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IIncBj021447; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:49:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IInaBI021422; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:49:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:49:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=TgHYFzrghrYSrTD5Dt8CrUhk568mqj8WIgSbece5pCwH3nS6h2lh9CqYNIHGBX1a; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005841817492960 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:49:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407030dcdd9065c2c663d59fd14f7b0316350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.124 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW, Terry. This event preceded the July 1947 "Roswell Incident" and the top-secret "Project Mogul" spy balloon that was launched from the White Sands Missile Range. http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/booknotes/booknotes-icbm.html "Pg. 113-114 On May 29, 1947, a V-2 with a guidance system designed by Dr. Ernst Steinhoff (who had guided the ill-fated German V-2 that had landed in Sweden and wound up in England for study) literally was wired up with wires crossed, and instead of heading up the range to the north, headed south, landing in a cemetary on the outskirts of Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, almost causing an international incident. The US Army arrived a couple of hours later, "enterprising Mexicans were selling any old piece of scrap metal they could find and claiming it was V-2 debris." No further launchers were made until proper range-safety procedures were developed." You don't suppose "Wrong Way Steinhoff" accidentally shot down a UFO, do you? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
BTW,  Terry.
 
This event preceded the July 1947 "Roswell Incident"  and the top-secret "Project Mogul" spy balloon that was launched from the White Sands Missile Range.  
 
 
"Pg. 113-114 On May 29, 1947, a V-2 with a guidance system designed by Dr.
Ernst Steinhoff (who had guided the ill-fated German V-2 that had landed in
Sweden and wound up in England for study) literally was wired up with wires
crossed, and instead of heading up the range to the north, headed south,
landing in a cemetary on the outskirts of Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, almost
causing an international incident. The US Army arrived a couple of hours
later, "enterprising Mexicans were selling any old piece of scrap metal
they could find and claiming it was V-2 debris." No further launchers were
made until proper range-safety procedures were developed."
 
You don't suppose "Wrong Way Steinhoff" accidentally shot down a UFO, do you?  :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 12:02:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IJ1J3U029817; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:01:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IJ1GlD029787; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:01:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:01:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ed01c5a427$26fc5cc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00bc01c5a41b$51ea50b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Photo-lattice converter Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:00:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As mentioned in an earlier post today, there is plenty of what can be termed "free" electric-field from higher energy photons - available all around us - i.e. such as an automotive exhaust system, which could (in a perfect world) supply very intense infrared (heat), for conversion into electricity. Except - for the lack of "coherency" in the IR photons. Sure, you could use the heat for steam, or for a Stirling engine, but those are Carnot heat-engines - just like the ICE. If there was an efficient way to convert that heat or any "free" electric field (i.e. otherwise wasted) it would demand **coherency** (like the maser/laser)... and that is where the Sandia Photo-lattice comes in... oops... could come in... were this technolgy not the neglected step-child of the decade, that is. What's up with Sandia - are they too busy and too blind to see the potential? What the photolattice does is to convert lower-grade heat (~1000 F.) into coherent IR light, and very efficiently - in seeming violation to Plank's Law. "Coherency" is the key to efficiency. There is a double advantage in an automotive hydbrid in that there are (almost) no Carnot losses when going from electric-to-electric. The reference again: "A Novel Photolattice with Extraordinary Properties"By Neil Savage http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/wonews/oct03/1003phot.html "A device from Sandia emits infrared radiation at a fixed wavelength and with a conversion efficiency that appears to defy Planck's law" OK. Here is a quick and not-so-dirty (actually very green) speculative idea on a possible way that one might get lots of energy from wasted exhaust heat in an automobile using the perfected Sandia photolattice. First you insulate the exhaust system so no heat is wasted, and do not cool the engine, using ceramics if necessary for the parts, and then you increase the diameter of a tubular section of the exhaust manifold enough to accomodate another interior axial tube, which will be heated by the exhaust. This interior-tube will become, in effect, a linear accelerator tube. 75% of the heat of an ICE is wasted, normally. The photolattic can use about a third of that. Consequently his addition might cut that net number for total heat losses down to 50% and nearly double the effective engine output, with no increase in fuel usage, if done properly (ideal situation). The tube is made of the photo-lattice material and is evacuated, so that an electron gun at one end can fire a low voltage beam down the interior tube, to be accelerated by the coherent crossed electric field of the coherent IR light. This is analogous to the first linear accelerators which used microwaves. At the other end of the tube is a direct converter, which can be as simple as an induction coil followed by a collector. This is electric-to-eletric conversion, so it should be over 90% eff. You would have to introduce pulsed electrons, in order to use induction on the output - no problemo. If the exhaust heat were 1200 degrees F. in and 800 out, say, that 400 degree difference is utilized by the photolattice, but it is not Carnot limited. The photolattice removes a spectrum of heat but only emits coherent light, presumably at the low end - which is still a fractional eV. The beam gets accelerated by the resultant crossed-field which is about 4,000 volts per cm so a 10 cm section could boost the beam up as much as 40,000 volts before being slowed by the induction output coils. Now if someone could just get Sandia interested in making the photo-lattice material again, then something interesting might be accomplished before oil runs out. Of course the same kind of system could be utilized for converting lower grade heat in a "warm" fusion LENR cell, should that one get out of the lab by the time. ...and should Sandia gets their collective act togehter.... or should I say gets theri "coherency act" together. We may have to send Sparber up there to intervene, if he ever comes down from flying over White Sands in UFOs.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 12:36:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IJa52S019759; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:36:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IJa337019729; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:36:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:36:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:36:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Pollution Quotient - PQ - was "MPG" => "MPG+e"? In-reply-to: <000001c5a401$8b542fc0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > Of course making the general assumption that the mass of 10k batteries > (approx 570lbs) would have no impact on performance... > > To truly compare apples to apples I think a new unit of measure is required. > It's always nice to frame things in familiar terms, but there are too many > variables that need to be considered to do that in this case. > > How about: > (energy density / work) / (pollution quotient) = Clean Work per Hour (CWPH) > > ED = energy potential of the fuel relative to weight & volume > W = power transfer efficiency per hour of typical operation > PQ = the sum of defined negative byproducts from origin to point source > > With this unit you should be able to reasonably compare the space shuttle to > a Prius... 8^) Except for the pollution quotient, doesn't this dimensionally reduce to 1/weight*volume ? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 12:58:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IJvuQN032066; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:58:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IJvpup032012; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:57:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:57:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Kowalski's summary of paper by Szpak et al Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:57:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050818195727.XSKJ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Steven Krivit > Such is not my quest. Uh-oh. Now having flashbacks to Monty Python... "My > quest is to seek the Holy Grail!" Well, it was the Knights Templar . . . Oops! Sorry, I promised Mike I wouldn't go there again. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 14:17:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7ILGsGw008159; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:17:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7ILGrAY008133; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:16:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:16:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c5a43a$181ed760$de027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Jed's book on CF Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:16:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5A410.2EB7B2F0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5A410.2EB7B2F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5A410.2EB7B2F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5A410.2EB7B2F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJust received the book in paperback form. Too much good information = to digest at one sitting. Anyone that ever aspires to write a technical = piece may find Jed's book is worthy. The time, research and technical = expertise that went into the book is a demonstration of perserverance. =20 =20 Congratulations Jed.. you did it !! Now one of my tasks is to get some = of them into Texas A & M, Rice , U of H, U of Texas and a friend at = NASA. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5A410.2EB7B2F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Just received the book in paperback form. Too much good information = to=20 digest at one sitting. Anyone that ever aspires to write a technical = piece may=20 find Jed's book is worthy. The time, research and technical expertise = that went=20 into the book is a demonstration of perserverance. 
 
Congratulations Jed.. you did it !!   Now one of my tasks = is to=20 get some of them into Texas A & M, Rice , U of H, U of Texas and a = friend at=20 NASA.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5A410.2EB7B2F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5A410.2EB7B2F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001e01c5a43a$17849330$de027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5A410.2EB7B2F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 14:22:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7ILLHJa010185; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:21:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7ILLEJd010159; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:21:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:21:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012601c5a43a$b53c6620$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: ring a bell? Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:20:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <906qBD.A.reC.JvPBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anyone on Vo' ever hear reference, even anecdotal, to the 21 cm line of hydrogen (1.42 GHz) every being related to either baryongenesis or proton decay? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 14:28:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7ILRu2Z012798; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:28:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7ILRmKs012728; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:27:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:27:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050818140618.029956b8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:26:40 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: d2fusion In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:23 AM 8/18/2005, you wrote: >I visited their site. Does anyone know if they are doing anything other >than hosting a website and attempting to raise capital? Good question Thomas. As I think is generally-known, Russ George did get a bunch of money from Solar in exchange for his "company." I put company in quotes because I honestly don't know what George, himself, has in the way of IP, or current R&D, or even a lab. He had been very avoidant to many direct questions I asked him over the last year. When he presented at the March APS conference, for all I could see, he was reviewing work he had done years ago with SRI, as well as general facts about the field. Maybe George had a lab and had been actively working on CF, but not that I could tell. On the other hand, Tom Passell and Tom Benson have been working on a few attempted replications. I had the pleasure of visiting their lab last December. They are (had been?) collaborating with Stringham earlier this year, working on a replication of his device, I believe, prior to joining forces with George. Gee, I wonder how the intellectual property issues is going to be handled on this one? Seems like its a volatile set of conditions. Tom1 and Tom2 were also attempting a replication of the Energetics Technologies glow discharge work. My visit with Tom and Tom was inspiring. They were focused and interested on the science. They were not the least bit concerned about me inspecting their apparatus, taking photos (there didn't turn out to be much that was photogenic about their setup.) They were quite open to share anything they learned with the science community. Passell and Benson seem to have very creative minds for this work and strong backgrounds. I wish them all the best. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 15:02:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IM1WZJ031454; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:01:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IM1SfX031420; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:01:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:01:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Methane Clathrates Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:01:06 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a440$562a1d70$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050818150117.KEQP8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7IM18Hq031263 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems to me that capping emissions now is closing the lid on Pandora's box... I fear we are already past the point of no return. I am suspicious that there may be some cyclical planetary event going on that may be truly to blame... atmospheric changes don't seem like enough they would contribute enough energy. Something is influencing spin, that influence is likely keeping the core hot too, perhaps a spike in that applied energy? http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/050225_wobbly_planet.html http://pao.cnmoc.navy.mil/educate/neptune/trivia/earth.htm http://www.news.uiuc.edu/scitips/01/02ocean.html http://www.earthscape.org/t2/har01/har01b/har01b.html http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8i.html -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 10:01 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Methane Clathrates > From: "John Steck" > The artic permafrost release of methane clathrates seems to have most > intelligent people rightfully concerned Oh, it's filtered to much lower ranks lately, the US Senate:-) http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/17/MTFH55800_2005-08-17_23-12-31_HO783 557.html or http://tinyurl.com/cmrpk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 16:09:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7IN99pp005442; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:09:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7IN97jo005432; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:09:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:09:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <024b01c5a449$cc4c0870$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Energetics Technologies LENR Patent Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:08:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0248_01C5A428.44B002C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0248_01C5A428.44B002C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I came across a patent for a LENR generator today by the obscure = Israelie company Energetics Technologies. The patent application is = dated 12 August 2004. Can anyone give me a rundown about this company = and how they are approaching cold fusion research? I can't find a = website by them. If anyone knows of an Energetics Technologies website, = please let me know.=20 The patent: http://www.wipo.int/ipdl/IPDL-CIMAGES/view/pct/getbykey5?KEY=3D05/17918.0= 50224 A low energy nuclear reaction power generator has different cells in = which hydrogenous atoms are driven by different methods to increase = atom-packing in a lattice and to increase the flux of hydrogenous atoms. = An electrolytic cell is provided containing an electrically-conductive = electrolyte, a glow discharge cell and a catalyst cell are each provided = containing a gas, and a high pressure electrolytic ultrasonic cell is = provided including a first section containing a gas and a second section = containing an electrolyte, in which is provided an anode-cathode = electrode pair. Applied across these electrodes is a train of electrical = packets, each comprised of a cluster of pulses. The amplitude and = duration of each pulse, the duration of intervals between pulses, and = the duration of intervals between successive packets in the train are in = a predetermined pattern in accordance with superwaving waves in which = each wave is modulated by waves of different frequency. ------=_NextPart_000_0248_01C5A428.44B002C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I came across a=20 patent for a LENR generator today by the obscure Israelie company = Energetics=20 Technologies.  The patent application is dated 12 August=20 2004.  Can anyone give me a rundown about this company and how = they=20 are approaching cold fusion research?  I can't find a website by=20 them.  If anyone knows of an Energetics Technologies website, = please=20 let me know. 
 
The patent:
http://www.wipo.int/ipdl/IPDL-CIMAGES/view/pct/getbykey5?K= EY=3D05/17918.050224
 
A low energy nuclear reaction power generator has different cells = in which=20 hydrogenous atoms are driven by different methods to increase = atom-packing in a=20 lattice and to increase the flux of hydrogenous atoms. An electrolytic = cell is=20 provided containing an electrically-conductive electrolyte, a glow = discharge=20 cell and a catalyst cell are each provided containing a gas, and a high = pressure=20 electrolytic ultrasonic cell is provided including a first section = containing a=20 gas and a second section containing an electrolyte, in which is provided = an=20 anode-cathode electrode pair. Applied across these electrodes is a train = of=20 electrical packets, each comprised of a cluster of pulses. The amplitude = and=20 duration of each pulse, the duration of intervals between pulses, and = the=20 duration of intervals between successive packets in the train are in a=20 predetermined pattern in accordance with superwaving waves in which each = wave is=20 modulated by waves of different frequency.
------=_NextPart_000_0248_01C5A428.44B002C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 17:52:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J0qBnv031402; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:52:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J0qAeB031391; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:52:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:52:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.21.248] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Methane Clathrates Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:51:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050819005149.IBDJ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Steck" > I am suspicious that there may be some cyclical planetary event going on > that may be truly to blame... Well, it *could* be this: http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn7854 as discussed here: http://www.dailygrail.com/node/1203 because we are well past our expiry date: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1436408,00.html Nice dreams! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 18:37:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J1Yp7D015309; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:35:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J1YYxP015179; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:34:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:34:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.21.248] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Some Figures On Orbiting Energy & Hydrogen Etc. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:34:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050819013409.JNNZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <7YHe3C.A._sD.pcTBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Frederick Sparber" > You don't suppose "Wrong Way Steinhoff" accidentally shot down a UFO, do you? :-) :-) Perhaps! My fav Roswell explanations are: 1) Two UFO's collided. One was likely talking on their cell phone. 2) The UFO's propulsion system was affected by a new high-power radar. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 19:19:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J2IqiK014320; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:19:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J2Iohe014281; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:18:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:18:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050819021829.0095fdfc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 03:18:29 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7J2ISoO013501 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Reading around the subject of sonoluminescence I was interested to come across the following. ============================================ Single-bubble sonoluminescence pulses can have very stable periods and positions. In fact, the frequency of light flashes can be more stable than the rated frequency stability of the oscillator making the sound waves driving them. ============================================ Being a "concrete head" (to use Keith's sobriquet) I immediately visualized the effect of jumping up and down on prestressed concrete footbridges and putting them into resonance. The frequency of the footbridge bounce is far more stable than the "rated frequency of the oscillator" (me) making the waves driving them. Now since the bubble is a very high pF (low Beta- atmosphere pressure) cavity, it occurred to me that one could see it as miniature cavity magnetron. Th combination of its small size and it low B-a pressure [high tension if one will insist on using an anthropomorphic datum ;-) ] suggests that it will be transmitting EM radiation at very short wave lengths and high frequencies. Of course, this explanation is so obvious that one immediately asks oneself, why on earth has no one else suggested it. I submit it is because when people come to put numbers on the problem, they are hamstrung by the failure to recognise the existence of the reduced Beta-atmosphere pressure in the cavity and its effect on those numbers. Perhaps Son Et Lumière is the key, not only to the wider recognition of the Beta-atmosphere's existence but also to the understanding of LENR. Cheers, Frank Grimer ======================== in principio erat Verbum et lux in tenebris lucet ======================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 19:56:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J2thMa028561; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:55:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J2tbDn028499; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:55:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:55:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.21.248] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Energetics Technologies LENR Patent Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:55:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050819025515.MDUH8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Coviello" > I've been a member for about a month now. I've been following the cold > fusion saga from the very begining. I'm just looking for more concrete > information on what Energetics Technologies is doing. Everything about them > is hearsay. They have no presence on the Internet that I know of. Perhaps > they're doing some wonderful things, but who knows. Do you know if they > have any U.S. operations? I read that the owner of Jones Apparel is funding > them. I'm sorry, John. That was intended as a joke. (hence the smiley face) Did you read the references? At ICCF10 their superwave theory caused some surprise. That is the paper referenced on the LENR site and was referenced recently on the list. They have received some funding from an angel in the US. (Hmmm. Is Jones Apparel . . . naaa that's LL Bean) I don't know how much. Rumor is it was around $2M. AFAIK, they have no web presence; but, they are one of two companies that we have talked about that are working on a commercial product using LENR. Wouldn't that be something, an Israeli company putting OPEC out of business! Jed or Ed might know more. I think McKubre knows more but he's not here. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 20:05:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J34ZMc031960; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:04:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J34YNi031942; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:04:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:04:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5a46a$ad80b870$de027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The secret of S.L Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:04:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5A440.C4196CF0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5A440.C4196CF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5A440.C41AF390" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5A440.C41AF390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote.. Th combination of its small size and it low B-a=20 pressure [high tension if one will insist on using=20 an anthropomorphic datum ;-) ] suggests that it will=20 be transmitting EM radiation at very short wave=20 lengths and high frequencies. I submit it is because when people come to put=20 numbers on the problem, they are hamstrung by the=20 failure to recognise the existence of the reduced=20 Beta-atmosphere pressure in the cavity and its=20 effect on those numbers. Perhaps Son Et Lumi=E8re is the key, not only to the=20 wider recognition of the Beta-atmosphere's existence=20 but also to the understanding of LENR. Frank.. intriguing thought !! SL produces a burst of UV light during the = implosion cycle. hmmm . I await the completion of your thoughts on this = segment. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5A440.C41AF390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer wrote..

Th combination of its small size and it low B-a
pressure [high = tension if=20 one  will insist on using
an anthropomorphic datum ;-) ] = suggests that=20 it will
be transmitting EM radiation at very short wave
lengths = and high=20 frequencies.
I submit it is because when people come to put =
numbers on=20 the problem, they are hamstrung by the
failure to recognise the = existence of=20 the reduced
Beta-atmosphere pressure in the cavity and its =
effect on=20 those numbers.

Perhaps Son Et Lumi=E8re is the key, not only to = the=20
wider recognition of the Beta-atmosphere's existence
but also to = the=20 understanding of LENR.

Frank.. intriguing thought !! SL produces a burst of UV light during = the=20 implosion cycle. hmmm . I await the completion of your thoughts on = this=20 segment.

Richard


------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5A440.C41AF390-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5A440.C4196CF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5a46a$ace33ff0$de027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5A440.C4196CF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 20:06:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J35ZmN032310; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:05:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J35XRo032285; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:05:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:05:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003201c5a46a$d01d58c0$5145ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: vaporware batteries Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:46:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "thomas malloy" Subject: vaporware batteries > Jones wrote; > > Speaking of that "one good battery" > > http://www.blacklightpower.com/battery.shtml > > 500 times better performance (energy density) than lithium ion, > but alas .... vaporware. > > What advanced battery isn't vaporware, these days. > > I assume that the Aluminium Battery does what the inventor says it > does. The BLP Battery, OTOH, I want to see work. I would seem to me > that fuel cell would be a better name than battery. Question to Mike > Carrell, have you seen the BLP Battery work? -------------------------------- MC: In short, no. For most purposes it is "vaporware", one of the last-but-not-least products that may be in the BLP parade, for one simple reason: commercial deployment requires large quantities of high-p hydrino hydrides, which means lots of reactors, which is not yet. Apart from the BLP battery, there are other high energy battery chemistries. One I recall is the sodium-sulfer battery which used liquid sodium metal, which has to be kept hot, and very reactively dangerous if it gets loose. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 20:23:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J3MvMF008463; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:23:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J3MtGf008451; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:22:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:22:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.21.248] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: vaporware batteries Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:22:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050819032234.MVDD8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" > MC: In short, no. For most purposes it is "vaporware", one of the > last-but-not-least products that may be in the BLP parade, for one simple > reason: commercial deployment requires large quantities of high-p hydrino > hydrides, which means lots of reactors, which is not yet. I'm not sure I agree (we rarely do). If your goal is to simply make and filter hydrinos for production purposes, it should be a lot easier than capturing and converting the UV energy. As an aside, I was surprised that you were the same age as Jones. God only knows how old Fred and Horace are. Are we all "Grumpy Old Men"? (My three lovely grandchildren call me "Grump Grump") From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 20:47:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J3kegw018615; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:46:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J3kd7q018599; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:46:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:46:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.21.248] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: New papers by Szpak et al. Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:46:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050819034618.NIVG8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-lT1Q.A.fiE.eYVBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" > We may never know.... http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq80-1.htm With a HL of 24,000 years, Pu239 alphas should be the evidence you need. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 18 20:50:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J3nnMT020473; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:50:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J3nlhY020398; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:49:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:49:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <6cff352d-4d1e-4d22-b0e0-9979e2dda367> Message-ID: <003901c5a470$f4bee210$5145ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050819032234.MVDD8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: vaporware batteries Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:49:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <9bIYC.A.g-E.abVBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" Subject: Re: vaporware batteries > > From: "Mike Carrell" > > > MC: In short, no. For most purposes it is "vaporware", one of the > > last-but-not-least products that may be in the BLP parade, for one simple > > reason: commercial deployment requires large quantities of high-p hydrino > > hydrides, which means lots of reactors, which is not yet. > > I'm not sure I agree (we rarely do). If your goal is to simply make and filter hydrinos for production purposes, it should be a lot easier than capturing and converting the UV energy. One charming aspect of the BLP picture is that if you are a chemical company needing hydrinos for your products, you can buy a BLP reaactor system, hook it to your drinking fountain, and make your own, while producing enough power to run your factory and sell some to the grid. Or, if you want power, you can buy a BLP micropower station and sell the hydrinos on the market as a valuable chemical feedstock. You get UV and hydrinos from the plasma. No good direct to electric conversion is in sight, so far as I can see, so you go the wasteful thermal cycle. The chicken and egg problem requires energy chickens first. there is an immediate demand for energy and conversion systems are well understood. For chemicals, first the lab guys at company A have to become familiar with the properties of BLP-N1, then figure out what kind of product to make [nail polish or battleship paint?] and then go through a very messy R&D cycle which could take years before you get to the marketing campaign -- and by then you have to be sure you have a guaranteed supply of BLP-N1. > > As an aside, I was surprised that you were the same age as Jones. God only knows how old Fred and Horace are. Are we all "Grumpy Old Men"? I work on the decimal system, 39.XX. I fear I become increasingly grumpy, and I'm not 40 yet :-). > > (My three lovely grandchildren call me "Grump Grump") > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 00:20:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J7KWxl031485; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:20:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J7KUgK031464; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:20:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:20:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43058827.6010800 sumosound.de> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:20:07 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence References: <2.2.32.20050819021829.0095fdfc pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050819021829.0095fdfc pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <6LCH6D.A.erH.-gYBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > Now since the bubble is a very high pF (low Beta- > atmosphere pressure) cavity, it occurred to me that > one could see it as miniature cavity magnetron. > > Th combination of its small size and it low B-a > pressure [high tension if one will insist on using > an anthropomorphic datum ;-) ] suggests that it will > be transmitting EM radiation at very short wave > lengths and high frequencies. It is not a bad suggestion, Frank. This crossed my mind many years ago while looking at a magnetron diagram. The main reason I haven't offered it up myself was because I am still trying to conceptualize the differences in the media. Walter Bauke is the father of an old friend of mine, Lee Bauke. Walter worked for the lab in Berlin that developed the magnetron. After being caught up and spit out of the blender known as World War 2, Walter, a young German engineer, found himself married to an English woman, and was wanted by the governments of the various winning countries for his knowledge of the magnetron. He ran. His tale of the events following the war was pretty funny considering the circumstances, but to keep this short, Walter ended up spending the latter part of his career working for NASA in New Mexico. Walter tried explaining to me how a magnetron worked in Seattle, but I wasn't getting it until I saw a diagram. I looked at it, and announced, "This Is Cavitating!". He said "Exactly!" But cavitating what, neither one of us could explain very well. My machine cavitates liquids. His cavitates free electrons in air. What is the connection? Is there a connection? My feeling is that the liquid cavitation phenomena do produce enough free electrons through friction at the final moments of bubble collapse that a mini-plasma forms on the inside of the bubble walls. This is facilitated when a fluid is used that has a high dielectric constant. The combination of these circumstances, (high vacuum inside the bubble, plenty of free electrons, rapidly decreasing dimensions of the bubble, and possible microwaving) are what is driving the various chemical and nuclear reactions that are being observed. It could well be that similar results could be made possible in a gas using a magnetron. Has anyone tried microwaving Radon, for example, and taking a neutron count? Could the dimensions of the magnetron cavities be optimized for various gases as compared to the magnetrons we have in microwave ovens? They don't look all that difficult to build, and it certainly seems worth a try considering the price tag of ITER. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 01:29:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7J8Slim021001; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:29:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7J8SjPF020985; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:28:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:28:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050819082828.009b353c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:28:28 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: <0QL9BD.A.0HF.8gZBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:20 am 19/08/2005 +0200, Knuke wrote: >Grimer wrote: > >> Now since the bubble is a very high pF (low Beta- >> atmosphere pressure) cavity, it occurred to me that >> one could see it as miniature cavity magnetron. >> >> Th combination of its small size and it low B-a >> pressure [high tension if one will insist on using >> an anthropomorphic datum ;-) ] suggests that it will >> be transmitting EM radiation at very short wave >> lengths and high frequencies. > It is not a bad suggestion, Frank. This crossed my mind many years ago > while looking at a magnetron diagram. The main reason I haven't offered > it up myself was because I am still trying to conceptualize the > differences in the media. Now there you have put your finger on the real problem, i.e the difficulty of conceptualizing the difference in the media. > Walter Bauke is the father of an old friend of mine, Lee Bauke. Walter > worked for the lab in Berlin that developed the magnetron. After being > caught up and spit out of the blender known as World War 2, Walter, a > young German engineer, found himself married to an English woman, and > was wanted by the governments of the various winning countries for his > knowledge of the magnetron. He ran. His tale of the events following > the war was pretty funny considering the circumstances, but to keep this > short, Walter ended up spending the latter part of his career working > for NASA in New Mexico. > > Walter tried explaining to me how a magnetron worked in Seattle, but I > wasn't getting it until I saw a diagram. I looked at it, and announced, > "This Is Cavitating!". He said "Exactly!" But cavitating what, neither > one of us could explain very well. My machine cavitates liquids. His > cavitates free electrons in air. What is the connection? Is there a > connection? Look at it this way. View the air molecules (the Alpha-atmosphere [A-a]) as dissolved in the Beta-atmosphere [B-a] which consists of particles of neutral mass and neutral charge. Thus A-a pressure (15 psi) is only a tiny fraction of the B-a pressure (100,000 psi, say). There is plenty of evidence for the existence of the Beta-atmosphere providing one is prepared to slaughter a few sacred cows. 8-) The magnetron is not cavitating the air [A-a], it is cavitating the much stiffer Beta-atmosphere. Now the equation of state for water, PV^6 = a constant (see http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html) gives some feeling for the order of things we are dealing with. In fact the water used in sonoluminescence may be considered as a physical manifestation of the very stiff Beta-atmosphere. It is significant that in our high pressure tests on concrete we used water and air pressures to successfully simulate increases in Beta-atmosphere pressure. If you can get your head around all that then you can see that the medium being cavitated in the magnetron ain't a whole lot different from the medium being cavitated in the sonoluminescence apparatus. It's just that. for us, one medium is very tangible and the other ain't. >My feeling is that the liquid cavitation phenomena do produce enough >free electrons through friction at the final moments of bubble collapse >that a mini-plasma forms on the inside of the bubble walls. This is >facilitated when a fluid is used that has a high dielectric constant. >The combination of these circumstances, (high vacuum inside the bubble, But your concept of a vacuum fizzles out at -15 psi, i.e. at the exhaustion of Alpha-atmosphere partial pressure, whereas my concept of a vacuum carries on to - -100,000 psi, say. That is the crucial difference. >plenty of free electrons, rapidly decreasing dimensions of the bubble, >and possible microwaving) are what is driving the various chemical and >nuclear reactions that are being observed. > >It could well be that similar results could be made possible in a gas >using a magnetron ... - or even the Beta-atmosphere using a magnetron, eh! ;-) - > ... Has anyone tried microwaving Radon, for example, and > taking a neutron count? Could the dimensions of the magnetron cavities > be optimized for various gases as compared to the magnetrons we have in > microwave ovens? They don't look all that difficult to build, and it > certainly seems worth a try considering the price tag of ITER. Unfortunately, a rather large Gestalt switch is needed before anyone could visualize the relevance of such experiments. Still, you seem to have caught a glimmer of luminescence 8-) - so maybe there's hope yet. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 04:00:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JB0NC1012825; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 04:00:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JB0L4u012803; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 04:00:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 04:00:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050819110003.0095e280 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:00:03 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: <0l6ga.A._HD.EvbBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pursuing the analogy between sonoluminescence and the cavity magnetron, I googled the following very intelligible description of the early development. ============================================== By 1939, other researchers had discovered that under certain conditions, the magnetron could produce very high-frequency radio waves. Boot and Randall decided to construct a magnetron that could handle a lot of power and generate microwaves efficiently. Most electron tubes at that time used glass envelopes to enclose the evacuated space inside of the device. Instead of glass, Boot and Randall made their magnetron tube enclosure out of a solid block of copper, which conducts heat very well. In order to tune the tube’s output wavelength efficiently, they drilled special holes called “cavities” into the block. Just as the length of an organ pipe tunes the pipe to a certain pitch, the size of a magnetron’s cavities can efficiently tune microwaves to a certain wavelength. Then Boot and Randall put the entire tube into a strong magnetic field that swept electrons past the cavities in a rotary motion. In February of 1940, the English researchers tested their first working cavity magnetron. They were amazed to find that it produced over 400 watts of power at the extremely short wavelength of 9.8 cm (about 4 inches). This was nearly a hundred times more power than anyone else had ever produced at that wavelength. ============================================== Now the interesting thing about the above is that Boot and Randall "...were amazed to find that [the magnetron] produced over 400 watts of power..." How does this amazement relate to sonoluminescence? Well, "For unknown reasons, the addition of a small amount of noble gas (such as helium, argon, or xenon) to the gas in the bubble increases the intensity of the emitted light dramatically." Since the reasons are unknown one might justifiably infer that the researchers who discovered this effect "...were amazed to find that" the intensity of the emitted light increased dramatically. This suggests that the noble gas atoms are behaving as cavity resonators for visible light in the same way as Boot and Randall's cavities behave for microwaves. If this explanation is correct then the reason for the dramatic increase in the intensity of emitted light is unknown no longer. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 06:36:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JDaR2H012867; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:36:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JDaPfp012844; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:36:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:36:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050819133603.56601.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: vaporware batteries NOT To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <003901c5a470$f4bee210$5145ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Mike Carrell wote, MC: In short, no. For most purposes it is "vaporware", one of the last-but-not-least products that may be in the BLP parade.... Hmmm....This is one of the few cases where I am considerably more optimistic than Mike about something from BLP, and he may actually be overlooking a sooner-to-be-released product than previously imagined. There is a certain irony in this, no ;-) The reason that I posted the previous message is that Google sent out a notice that the particular (hydrino battery) page on the BLP web site had been updated. The changes, though subtle, would leave an optimist to believe that something is up. If so, then keep an eye on the "Portable Power 2005" conference in a few weeks in San Francisco 18-21 September 2005. This is a conference which caters to the primo applications for lightweight (high priced) batteries. This is where the creme-de-la-creme of new portable power technology can find an incredible market in which high price (per pound =$200/lb for a computer battery) is available for the very best product, and in high volume - every manufacturers dream. Here are the specualtive reasons why I think this battery will be the first BLP product - not the last. 1) BLP has never given up on an older "alternative" process (a wet process - like the Thermacore cell) which produces hydrinos, but zero net electrical energy, as the heat is very low grade. 2) If you produce let's say one gram of hydinos from a cell, then you may get 100 kw of OU heat energy out - but Catch-22 almost no real electrical energy, because the heat is around 100 degrees C. and the cell uses electical energy - so even though it is strongly OU, it is going the "wrong way" by burning 10 kw of electicity to get 100 kw of low grade heat (this is just a hypothetical example). Anyway, you are better off to use natural gas for the heat. 3) the real value of this cell is limited to the hydrinos as a chemical. The heat is too low even for a Stiriling, and costs far most than heat from solar. Running the cell hotter quenches the process for a reason to be divulged soon. 4) THE BEST economic use for hydrinos is in a battery - value per gram $50-100 now. the price will drop considerably over time as the volume increases, but auto applications will lag for years. My crystal ball is getting cloudy... but there may be a few more predicitions. Stay tuned... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 07:17:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JEHJdw030651; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:17:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JEHE1d030596; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:17:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:17:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4305E9D7.5080600 sumosound.de> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:16:55 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence References: <2.2.32.20050819110003.0095e280 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050819110003.0095e280 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > Well, "For unknown reasons, the addition of a small amount > of noble gas (such as helium, argon, or xenon) to the gas > in the bubble increases the intensity of the emitted light > dramatically." > > Since the reasons are unknown one might justifiably infer > that the researchers who discovered this effect > "...were amazed to find that" the intensity of the emitted > light increased dramatically. > > This suggests that the noble gas atoms are behaving as > cavity resonators for visible light in the same way as > Boot and Randall's cavities behave for microwaves. > > If this explanation is correct then the reason for > the dramatic increase in the intensity of emitted light > is unknown no longer. > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer Moin Frank, Well, maybe, but probably not. At least, not with this given set of data. The noble gases are most generally used in light generating tubes at low atmospheres because they ionize easily enough, and then return to their original molecular state unchanged. In other words, they are very difficult gases to contaminate with other substances. That is why we call them Noble Gases. If the electrons produced by the collapse of the bubble are sufficient to cause the gas inside the bubble to ionize, then what you are looking at is the light emitted from a straight forward plasma reaction, and nothing more. At least, this is the most commonly accepted explanation offered up by the current researchers, and I find it quite plausible. If you use water or another non conducting liquid laced with radon gas, which is also a noble gas, and you get a higher than background neutron count, then you are looking at a controlled, tabletop nuclear reaction. I would not be particularly surprised or excited about this. If you can do this with a magnetron, then you don't need the water, and you might be getting us a little closer to understanding this concept of beta atmosphere or whatever it is. I have to admit not having the time to go back over your writings on this subject, but the idea does look interesting, and to date, I haven't seen enough discussion about the idea that would shoot it down, either. As far as I am concerned, your flag is still waving, and I hope to understand things better as time permits. If you really think that you can prove or clearly explain that there is a common media between cavitation in a liquid, and cavitation in a microwave, then I think that this would be a great contribution to Science - one that could be engineered to do many useful things. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 07:51:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JEpJqv018630; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:51:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JEpIAr018610; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:51:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:51:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:51:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050819082828.009b353c pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > > Look at it this way. View the air molecules (the Alpha-atmosphere [A-a]) > as dissolved in the Beta-atmosphere [B-a] which consists of particles of > neutral mass and neutral charge. Thus A-a pressure (15 psi) is only a tiny > fraction of the B-a pressure (100,000 psi, say). > What do you mean by "neutral mass" in your theory. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 07:55:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JEsIHP019864; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:54:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JEsHB5019841; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:54:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:54:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050819145358.00965884 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:53:58 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:16 pm 19/08/2005 +0200, Knuke wrote: >Moin Frank, > > Well, maybe, but probably not. At least, not with this given set of > data. The noble gases are most generally used in light generating tubes > at low atmospheres because they ionize easily enough, and then return > to their original molecular state unchanged. In other words, they are > very difficult gases to contaminate with other substances. That is why > we call them Noble Gases. If the electrons produced by the collapse of > the bubble are sufficient to cause the gas inside the bubble to ionize, > then what you are looking at is the light emitted from a straight > forward plasma reaction, and nothing more. At least, this is the most > commonly accepted explanation offered up by the current researchers, and > I find it quite plausible. If the above is correct then presumably the spectrum of the sonoluminescence will be different for different noble gases. Is it, and if so, in what way? - and do you know of a URL which might give this information? Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 09:35:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JGY8cW015074; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:34:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JGY20g015001; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:34:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:34:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430609DD.3010104 sumosound.de> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:33:33 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence References: <2.2.32.20050819145358.00965884 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050819145358.00965884 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > > If the above is correct then presumably the spectrum > of the sonoluminescence will be different for different > noble gases. Is it, and if so, in what way? - and do you > know of a URL which might give this information? > > Frank Grimer Moin Frank, You make a good point, the spectrum should be different. I don't remember off the top of my head if this was ever measured or not, to tell you the truth, but it would seem logical that any well equiped researcher would do that. It is cheap and easy enough to do. All of the early stuff that I have read states that the light is in the UV range, but that was only for normal water. Schaeffer, as far back as the early 70's, and Griggs in the early 90's both reported blue steam coming out of their devices, and I asked at the time if they had turned out the lights to see if the steam was actually emitting light, but I never got an answer. At the time, I was trying to establish the fact that the hydrogen/oxygen bonds were being broken, and that the steam contained radicals that were burning when exposed to the oxygen outside the machine. That much and more has been pretty well established since then. As for URLs, my collection was destroyed when I moved to Europe. I had two copies of my website which contained nearly all of the URLs, and went to great lengths to ensure that they would be safely treated during my escape from the US. The story of how they were destroyed is so unbelievable, I don't even want to think about it. I haven't had the time since then to do the work again. So it goes. I do remember sending copies of the website to a couple of people from this group. Maybe somebody still has a copy, and can send it to you. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 10:22:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JHM0s5011676; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:22:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JHLw2T011653; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:21:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:21:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Only 38% Fusion Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:21:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050819172125.LUID3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-vbc4B.A.B2C.2UhBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seem to be a lot of these IRONeous web pages. Only 38% of the sun's energy is from fusion: http://www.thesunisiron.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 10:25:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JHOHcK012936; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:24:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JHOBUh012887; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:24:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:24:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050819172351.009a1c08 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:23:51 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: <4iz5eD.A.HJD.6WhBDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:51 am 19/08/2005 -0500, Harry wrote: > Grimer wrote: > > >> >> Look at it this way. View the air molecules (the Alpha-atmosphere [A-a]) >> as dissolved in the Beta-atmosphere [B-a] which consists of particles of >> neutral mass and neutral charge. Thus A-a pressure (15 psi) is only a tiny >> fraction of the B-a pressure (100,000 psi, say). >> > > > What do you mean by "neutral mass" in your theory. > > Harry Mass, like charge can be positive or negative. If a particle comprises equal amounts of positive and negative mass - like the Hotson residue of positron-electron alleged "annihilation" then the particle will have neutral mass (and neutral charge too, of course). The necessary existence of neutral mass can be seen from strain energy consideration. Strain energy involves epsilon squared. But a squared term implies two roots, one positive and the other negative. These correspond, of course, to the two types of strain energy, tensile and compressive strain energies. One has to be careful to distinguish between two different types of mass. Numerator Mass and Denominator Mass. Numerator Mass relates to the number of objects. Five objects have five times more Numerator Mass than one object. To have negative Numerator Mass one would have to have negative objects which is clearly nonsense. Traditional Newtonian mechanics was solely concerned with Numerator Mass. Denominator Mass was assumed unchanging and did not enter into consideration. However, last century it was discovered that the mass of a given object could vary. When one projects an electron at approaching light speed the Numerator Mass stays the same. One electron does not become seven electrons for example. It is the Denominator Mass which changes. It is a change in accidents not a change in substance (using these terms in the philosophical sense). Now, along with Leibniz, I hold the view that if it doesn't move it doesn't exist. Denominator Mass is a manifestation of some fine scale velocity as both Ing.Saviour and I have independently realised. Velocity is a vector and so we can have a body with contra-rotating parts which has a net zero internal velocity, i.e. a neutral mass. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 10:48:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JHlw0Q027291; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:48:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JHlu1S027274; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:47:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:47:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c5a4e6$1523aca0$2c027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The secret of S.L. Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:47:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5A4BC.2BC5AFF0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5A4BC.2BC5AFF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C5A4BC.2BC5AFF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C5A4BC.2BC5AFF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Grimer wrote... >In fact the water used in sonoluminescence may be considered as a=20 physical manifestation of the very stiff Beta-atmosphere. It is=20 significant that in our high pressure tests on concrete we used water=20 and air pressures to successfully simulate increases in Beta-atmosphere=20 pressure.=20 If you can get your head around all that then you can see that the = medium being cavitated in the magnetron ain't a whole lot different from the=20 medium being cavitated in the sonoluminescence apparatus. It's just = that. for us, one medium is very tangible and the other ain't.=20 Frank.. Trying to get one's head around the two different media can make = my head hurt. I will mention that on one of our test units in Los = Angeles, the high speed mixer producing a liquid vortex would began = cavitating when we fed a mix of sodium hypo into the feed line. You = mentioned noble gasses, however chlorine is one of those mystery = elements like bismuth although few recognize chlorine as being such. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C5A4BC.2BC5AFF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

 

Grimer wrote...

>In fact the water used in sonoluminescence may be considered as a =
physical manifestation of the very stiff Beta-atmosphere. It is=20
significant that in our high pressure tests on concrete we used = water=20
and air pressures to successfully simulate increases in = Beta-atmosphere=20
pressure.

If you can get your head around all that then you = can see=20 that the medium
being cavitated in the magnetron ain't a whole lot = different=20 from the
medium being cavitated in the sonoluminescence apparatus. = It's just=20 that.
for us, one medium is very tangible and the other ain't.

Frank.. Trying to get one's head around the two different media can = make my=20 head hurt. I will mention that on one of our test units in Los Angeles, = the high=20 speed mixer producing a liquid vortex would began cavitating when we fed = a mix=20 of sodium hypo into the feed line. You mentioned noble gasses, however = chlorine=20 is one of those mystery elements like bismuth although few recognize = chlorine as=20 being such.

Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C5A4BC.2BC5AFF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5A4BC.2BC5AFF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000e01c5a4e6$14896870$2c027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5A4BC.2BC5AFF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 11:31:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JIV2Ap022474; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:31:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JIV1Tl022457; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:31:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:31:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050819183044.009a3ea4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:30:44 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The secret of S.L. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:47 pm 19/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Blank > >Grimer wrote... > > >> If you can get your head around all that then you can see that the medium >> being cavitated in the magnetron ain't a whole lot different from the >> medium being cavitated in the sonoluminescence apparatus. It's just that. >> for us, one medium is very tangible and the other ain't. > Frank.. Trying to get one's head around the two different > media can make my head hurt. I will mention that on one of > our test units in Los Angeles, the high speed mixer producing > a liquid vortex would began cavitating when we fed a mix of > sodium hypo into the feed line. You mentioned noble gasses, > however chlorine is one of those mystery elements like bismuth > although few recognize chlorine as being such. > > Richard I must admit that I found the whole of chemistry rather mysterious. That's what made it such fun. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 11:40:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JIdTaM026714; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:39:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JIdRcq026692; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:39:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:39:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:38:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Cold Electricity Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: PES published the following article on E V Gray, http://pesn.com/2005/08/19/9600152_EV_Gray_nephew/ Part of the discussion mentioned Peter Linderman's book on cold electricity. Shortly after it's publication I emailed Peter and asked him if there was any experimental evidence for what he was saying, or if he was just selling books. I never received a reply, so I have relegated Peter to the status of vaporware merchant. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 11:40:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JIdMWO026638; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:39:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JIdLbb026628; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:39:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:39:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:38:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: secrets of sonoluminescence Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The analogy of a cavitation bubble and a magnatron fascinates me. I'll have to take that up with some of my techie friends. I wondering about the two atmospheric pressures, alpha and bets. Can someone explain the difference? Alpha I understand, that's just the pressure of the air surrounding me, but the 100,000 beta atmosphere, what planet is that on? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 12:29:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JJSnEt018715; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:29:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JJSlSN018678; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:28:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:28:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050819192828.009a3da4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:28:28 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: secrets of sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:38 pm 19/08/2005 -0500, Thomas wrote: > The analogy of a cavitation bubble and a magnetron fascinates me. > I'll have to take that up with some of my techie friends. > > I wondering about the two atmospheric pressures, alpha and bets. Can > someone explain the difference? Alpha I understand, that's just the > pressure of the air surrounding me, but the 100,000 beta atmosphere, > what planet is that on? 3rd Rock from the Sun [amongst others 8-) ] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 12:32:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JJVxbc020159; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:32:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JJVuCZ020110; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:31:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:31:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c5a4f5$9609e1e0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: Cold Electricity Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:38:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 2:38 PM Subject: Cold Electricity > PES published the following article on E V Gray, > http://pesn.com/2005/08/19/9600152_EV_Gray_nephew/ > > Part of the discussion mentioned Peter Linderman's book on cold > electricity. Shortly after it's publication I emailed Peter and asked > him if there was any experimental evidence for what he was saying, or > if he was just selling books. I never received a reply, so I have > relegated Peter to the status of vaporware merchant. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 12:34:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JJXXwu020975; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:33:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JJXRmm020886; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:33:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:33:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002701c5a4f5$ca5c0c20$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: Cold Electricity Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:39:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Is this the same cold electricity Floyd Sweet was working with? Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 2:38 PM Subject: Cold Electricity > PES published the following article on E V Gray, > http://pesn.com/2005/08/19/9600152_EV_Gray_nephew/ > > Part of the discussion mentioned Peter Linderman's book on cold > electricity. Shortly after it's publication I emailed Peter and asked > him if there was any experimental evidence for what he was saying, or > if he was just selling books. I never received a reply, so I have > relegated Peter to the status of vaporware merchant. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 12:41:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JJfHEp027071; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:41:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JJfG7J027062; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:41:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:41:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050819194053.37324.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:40:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: SHGb02+14a To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lost souls in a fish bowl...? The most interesting radio signal which we know of, although not likely to be a relic of ET calling-in (not exactly anyway), was discovered in 2003 by a SETI home user from feed signals from the "big bowl" (Arecibo). The message goes by the lovely name of SHGb02+14a. It was kept secret and not announced until 2004, because of the suspected controversy – which did not disappoint. Many self-appointed experts (and idiots), have chimed-in with personal revelations, so why not one more? http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6341 This signal, like a murmur of Buddha-Allah-Yahweh - can be meaningful in its own peculiar way - and was observed three times at 1420 megahertz - and was directed from a earth-sized location between the constellations Pisces and Aries. The 1420 MHz frequency has been thought to be the one that extraterrestrials would supposedly use, since being a main frequencies at which hydrogen readily absorbs and radiates energy, smart folks everywhere would appreciate this factoid -but that logic is suspect. In contrast, one might think that this would be a frequency to avoid, unless you had one hell of a transmitter, so to speak, in order to reach out very far - since there is so much random hydrogen in interstellar space to block weak signals. But this post is not really about possible UFO signals (not directly). ZPE is the message here... or oops... "is the medium the message" ?? Most researchers (who have to protect their phoney-baloney jobs) have already dismissed the signal in question as an artifact of cosmic noise (total BS), or maybe just a glitch in the receiver (not-even likely)… and so the playing field for cosmic physical interpretation is wide open. The curious thing is that there are no stars within 1000 light years of the narrow signal, and no planets or "likely life-forms" either. So if this signal is coming from "intelligence," it is coming from the very top of the stairway, so to speak. An alternative, but "real" meaning of the "signal" could relate to its physical interpretation. But is there a physical explanation? Now there is…. ;-) There is a known oscillating energy difference between spin alignment (anti-alignment) in hydrogen (proton and electron), and when the system alignment flips, you get a photon at 1420 MHz (a wavelength of 21 cm). Mainstream science says that the flip is caused by an external energy source. The present argument (the one which would aspire to add personal "meaning to this signal) says that the flip can be, and most often is stimulated by ZPE, in the absence of any external source, and ERGO is evidence of free-energy on a cosmic scale. It goes on to assert that on average, after two million or so flips of any H atom, a local depletion in the ZPF will shrink that atom to a redundant ground state and after that, continuing oscillation will eventually “swallow” that atom (it will decay) if enough "free energy" is radiated away. If the atoms in any one area are in sync they can decay or radiate in sync. I hope to firm up the details of this hypothesis later, distilling the cosmic evidence down for use in an acutal device, but as you can see there is some relevance to the hydrino theory, and to a past hypothesis for the putative energy which could be showing up in MAHG. An oddity about the SETI signal is that it lasts only around a minute implying that the region that it came from was less than a light-minute in size, about the scale of an earthly orbit, but coming from where there are no planets - and is extraordinarily intense for its presumed distance. I'm pretty certain that this is/was a different "kind" of message - IF - that is, the resonant en-masse radiation from a cloud of hydrogen, can be called a message. Like "beauty" meaning is also in the eye of the beholder. The meaning (for this beholder) is that some force out there (i.e. the medium-is-the-message) may be trying to alert us to the fact that the same methodology can perhaps be accomplished on a smaller scale - i.e. to capture ZPE energy for terrestrial uses. Now, waxing even more poetic, if we could somehow exchange our collective-walk-on part in a war for the lead-role in a cage ( i.e. the WWW) then we could we get the information necessary to trade hot ashes for trees? More later, Floyidians. Wish you were here. Jones There is a deep significance to the location of this signal for Buddhists in the celebration of "Songkran" April 13-15. FYI - apart from marking a new symbolic beginning (a new year), Songkran is also thanksgiving. At the heart of this Buddhist tradition in a new beginning like the Western idea of Aquarius. "Songkran"is a word from Sanskrit which means to "move into" and refers to the orbit of the sun moving into Aries. It marks the end of a 12-month cycle and the beginning of a new solar year. Songkran is therefore a New Year celebration, day of atonement, Thanksgiving and Lent, all rolled into one. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 12:47:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JJkWGO029966; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:46:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JJkURg029946; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:46:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:46:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404j6$19pib1p mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,126,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1402547257:sNHT13364052" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: To: CC: Subject: Solar Announces the Acquisition of D2Fusion Inc. Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:46:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FWIW, This just in: Solar Announces the Acquisition of D2Fusion Inc. http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050819005367&newsLang=en http://tinyurl.com/b7u3n Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 13:22:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JKLSOL012120; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:21:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JKLN3r012082; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:21:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:21:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=bejn1HfzLnMobnRJH4hRVLmbfw1E4HQoIEuhKhCcSQVt6ne2Zwdtj4W6V35BFJSI; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058519202153350 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 19, 2005 Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:21:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8390f9e7d7c8efbe9faf189411a58e729f966978d6047df59350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.89.117 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 8/19/2005 1:04:52 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 19, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 19 Aug 05 Washington, DC 1. THE BEACH: NATURAL CURES "THEY" DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW ABOUT. Last week at the beach? Need something to read? Kevin Trudeau's top bestseller might have you looking for a rip tide to throw it into. Worried about too much sun? "The sun does not cause skin cancer, sun screens do." This sort of logic is on every page. "Scientists in secret laboratories are developing chemicals that are added to our food, but not included on the label." These "secret poisonous chemicals" are specifically designed to make people hungry so they buy more food, make them fat because fat people eat more, addict them to the product and cause disease. The food industry, the drug companies, the government, and the scientists are in cahoots to keep you sick and profits up. What's the evidence? Kevin Trudeau doesn't do "evidence." A 42 year-old ex-convict and infomercial guru, he preys on the most vulnerable among us, the sick and elderly. The FTC fined him $2 million and barred him from selling products with infomercials - except for his book. He wears his convictions like badges of honor - proof that the establishment is trying to silence him. 2. BACK HOME: "THE REPUBLICAN WAR ON SCIENCE," BY CHRIS MOONEY By the time you're back from the beach, "The Republican War on Science" should be in the bookstores. It was already being printed two weeks ago when the President of the United States publically took the side of biblical literalists in the dispute over the teaching of religious alternatives to evolution in public schools http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn080505.html. Global warming deniers, stem cell research opponents, those who claim to see a link between abortion and breast cancer, they're all here. This meticulously researched and documented account of how scientific research is being displaced in government by ideologically driven pseudoscience could hardly be more timely. 3. GLOBAL WARMING: MAYBE THE SENATE JUST NEEDS MORE FIELD TRIPS. Four Senators, three of them Republican including Lindsey Graham (R-SC), who has been a global warming skeptic, returned from a trip to Barrow, AK, the northernmost U.S. city, convinced that warming is real. "If you can go and listen to the native people and listen to their stories and walk away with any doubt that something's going on, I just think you're not listening," Graham said. I would rather rely on data, but if this works, go there. 4. NASA: THE NEXT SHUTTLE FLIGHT WILL BE IN THE SPRING - MAYBE. A minority report by seven of the 25 members of the Columbia review board, critical of the agency for compromising safety to return to flight, was followed by an announcement that the shuttle will not fly before March 4. This again raises questions about the future of the ISS. It was built with no clear idea of what it was for. NASA now defends the ISS solely on the basis on commitments to partner nations to complete it. What's the point? It's reminiscent of the ABM system in Grand Forks, ND, abandoned in 1979, 24 hours after its construction was declared complete. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 14:29:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JLT7El014732; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:29:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JLT5Aq014676; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:29:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:29:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Letter to Congress Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:28:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050819212841.ZBAC9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vorts, I have had a number of requests lately for a form letter which could be used to write Congress on the idiocy of the DOE and failure to support LENR research. Has anyone done one lately? TIA, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 15:24:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7JMOIjZ005125; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:24:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JMOFa9005097; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:24:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:24:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: FTL Claim Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:23:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050819222353.ZVVD9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html It's the old group velocity issue but I don't understand the statement at the end and fiber communications is what I do. Anyone get it? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 17:01:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7K004C6028504; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:01:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7JNoFgp023789; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02e401c5a510$bb1c48e0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <4404j6$19pib1p mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Solar Announces the Acquisition of D2Fusion Inc. Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:52:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Great! They closed the deal for D2Fusion. There were some nice little nuggets in that press release. Let's hope they follow through and start making news later this year. Cold fusion is moving from the pure research laboratory to the applied research laboratory. This could snowball into an effort to be first with a commercial cold fusion product, as competition heats up. This would be the fourth cold fusion commercialization effort that is ongoing: For details on ongoing cold fusion commercialization efforts, see: http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:Cold_fusion#Ongoing_developments ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 3:46 PM Subject: Solar Announces the Acquisition of D2Fusion Inc. > FWIW, This just in: > > Solar Announces the Acquisition of D2Fusion Inc. > > http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050819005367&newsLang=en > > http://tinyurl.com/b7u3n > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 18:38:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7K1brHa007638; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:38:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7K1bpDe007623; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:37:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:37:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:37:35 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote: > Vo, > For those of us who lurk and may subscribe/unsubscribe but want to keep up > with what's gone, http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ doesn't appear to > be working. Has the url changed? When escribe became unreliable last year, I signed up with another free service: mail-archive. Both are linked on the vortex page http://amasci.com/weird/wvort.html mail-archive.com http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/ (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 20:17:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7K3H8p6021639; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:17:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7K3H6s1021625; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:17:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5a535$95810ec0$36027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: D2 Fusion Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:16:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5A50B.AC292C90"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5A50B.AC292C90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5A50B.AC292C90" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5A50B.AC292C90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSolar's website indicates they are acquiring BOTH D2 Fusion and = Planktos Inc. Planktos website is near identical to D2 Fusion's as both = seem to be run by Russ George. Solar advises they are dumping some = ventures in order to work on D2 and Planktos. Interesting that Solar is now concentrating on the carbon, methane = emission credits market worldwide since the Kyoto treaty was enacted = which permits nations to peddle emission credits. If this results in " = omissions and remissions" rather than emissions remains to be seen. = However , it is a market that many are jumping " astraddle" including = Solar.=20 Richard=20 ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5A50B.AC292C90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Solar's website indicates they are acquiring BOTH D2 Fusion and = Planktos=20 Inc. Planktos website is near identical to D2 Fusion's as both seem to = be run by=20 Russ George. Solar advises they are dumping some ventures in order to = work on D2=20 and Planktos.
 
Interesting that Solar is now concentrating on the carbon, methane = emission=20 credits market worldwide since the Kyoto treaty was enacted which = permits=20 nations to peddle emission credits. If this results in " omissions = and=20 remissions" rather than emissions remains to be seen. However , it = is a=20 market that many are jumping " astraddle" including Solar.
 
Richard 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5A50B.AC292C90-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5A50B.AC292C90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5a535$94e9d7d0$36027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5A50B.AC292C90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 20:38:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7K3c8Sm004366; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:38:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7K3c26s004263; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:38:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:38:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050820033740.009a8e64 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:37:40 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Secret of Sonoluminescence Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:16 pm 19/08/2005 +0200, you wrote: >Grimer wrote: > >> Well, "For unknown reasons, the addition of a small amount >> of noble gas (such as helium, argon, or xenon) to the gas >> in the bubble increases the intensity of the emitted light >> dramatically." >> >> Since the reasons are unknown one might justifiably infer >> that the researchers who discovered this effect >> "...were amazed to find that" the intensity of the emitted >> light increased dramatically. >> >> This suggests that the noble gas atoms are behaving as >> cavity resonators for visible light in the same way as >> Boot and Randall's cavities behave for microwaves. >> >> If this explanation is correct then the reason for >> the dramatic increase in the intensity of emitted light >> is unknown no longer. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Frank Grimer > > Moin Frank, > > Well, maybe, but probably not. At least, not with this given set of > data. The noble gases are most generally used in light generating tubes > at low atmospheres because they ionize easily enough, and then return > to their original molecular state unchanged. In other words, they are > very difficult gases to contaminate with other substances. That is why > we call them Noble Gases. If the electrons produced by the collapse of > the bubble are sufficient to cause the gas inside the bubble to ionize, > then what you are looking at is the light emitted from a straight > forward plasma reaction, and nothing more. At least, this is the most > commonly accepted explanation offered up by the current researchers, and > I find it quite plausible. Hi Knuke, I've been thinking about what you say in the paragraph above. If the vacuum were simply an Alpha-atmosphere vacuum at -15 psi then one might logically expect the pretty colours that the noble gases give. Presumably this is what the original researchers were thinking when they introduced small amounts of the noble gases to the experiment. Now I know it is difficult to argue from what is not said - and I know it is difficult to assess the provenance of a Wikipedia article - but it seems to me that the paragraph, =========================================================== "For unknown reasons, the addition of a small amount of noble gas (such as helium, argon, or xenon) to the gas in the bubble increases the intensity of the emitted light dramatically." =========================================================== suggests that they didn't get the result they imagined from the experiment. If the spectrum had been changed in the way that one might have expected then you would think the article would have said so. The fact that this enigmatic phenomena of sonoluminescence has been around for yonks without any agreed explanation strongly suggests that something major is not being taken into account. I am confident that, that something, is Beta-atmosphere pressure - or rather the reduction in Beta-atmosphere pressure within the bubble. I realise that the idea of a Beta-atmosphere vacuum of many thousands of psi below ambient pressure brings about enormous cognitive dissonance in anyone who risks taking it seriously - but that is only to be expected. I fear there is little I can do to ameliorate such dissonance other than to put forward the Beta-atmosphere concept as dispassionately as possible. There is plenty of background material for anyone who wants it, both it the Vortex archives and in three conventional publications; four if you include the Infinite Energy article. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 19 22:55:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7K5tC2V020188; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:55:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7K5t992020170; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:55:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:55:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050820055454.0095d75c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:54:54 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This thread really follows on from "The Secret of Sonoluminescence" thread. Any Vort coming new to this post really ought to read "The Secret..." first in order to properly follow the argument. For anyone not familiar with the workings of a cavity magnetron, there is a very clear article on it at the following URL. http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/collection/tech.php?id=2345892&lid=1 In particular, it is well worth while firing up the animation half way down the page. This gives a very good visual appreciation of what is going on. Interestingly enough the other night I was watching a programme on Michael Faraday (whose house I pass by every Sunday morning). The programme presented a dramatisation of his discovery of the electric motor where a wire rotates around the pole of a vertical magnet in a pool of mercury. Seeing the animation of the electrons circling round the magnetic field in the cavity magnetron immediately brought Faraday's historic experiment to mind. The IEEE animation of the magnetron's operation states, ============================================== It works somewhat like a whistle. Wind blown over a bottle excites the air inside sending off sound waves at a wavelength dependent on the size of the cavity. Tipped on its side the bottle opening resembles one of the 8 cavities in a cavity magnetron. In a cavity magnetron, however, instead of wind, electrons form a propeller-shaped cloud and pass rapidly over the cavity openings, exciting them. Instead of sound, short radio waves called microwaves are generated at a wavelength set by the size of the cavities. ============================================== Now the following paragraphs appear in the main body of the article. ======================================================= By 1939, other researchers had discovered that under certain conditions, the magnetron could produce very high-frequency radio waves. Boot and Randall decided to construct a magnetron that could handle a lot of power and generate microwaves efficiently. Most electron tubes at that time used glass envelopes to enclose the evacuated space inside of the device. Instead of glass, Boot and Randall made their magnetron tube enclosure out of a solid block of copper, which conducts heat very well. In order to tune the tube’s output wavelength efficiently, they drilled special holes called “cavities” into the block. Just as the length of an organ pipe tunes the pipe to a certain pitch, the size of a magnetron’s cavities can efficiently tune microwaves to a certain wavelength. Then Boot and Randall put the entire tube into a strong magnetic field that swept electrons past the cavities in a rotary motion. In February of 1940, the English researchers tested their first working cavity magnetron. They were amazed to find that it produced over 400 watts of power at the extremely short wavelength of 9.8 cm (about 4 inches). This was nearly a hundred times more power than anyone else had ever produced at that wavelength. ========================================================== Now ask yourself the question. Why were the Boot and Randall so amazed to find that it produced "a hundred times more power than anyone else had ever produced" ? They were amazed because they didn't realise that the above two paragraphs that accompany the animation are a perfect description of what is going on in an Atmosphere at a pressure undreamt of in their wildest imaginings. What atmosphere? The Beta-atmosphere, obviously. Rewriting the animation paragraphs in the light of this insight gives us, ============================================== It works somewhat like a whistle. Wind blown over a bottle excites the Alpha-atmosphere inside sending off sound waves at a wavelength dependent on the size of the cavity. Tipped on its side the bottle opening resembles one of the 8 cavities in a cavity magnetron. In a cavity magnetron, however, instead of Alpha-atmosphere wind, electrons manifest a Beta-atmosphere wind which passes rapidly over the cavity openings, exciting them. Instead of Alpha-atmosphere sound waves, Beta-atmosphere invisible light waves called microwaves are generated at a wavelength set by the size of the cavities. ============================================== Now, to me, that interpretation of what is going on is obviously right. But then I've been working with the concept of a Beta-atmosphere for decades so it's relatively easy for me to realise when a piece of the jigsaw fits. It will be interesting to find out if anyone else can see what I have seen. Cheers, Frank Grimer ======================== in principio erat Verbum et lux in tenebris lucet ======================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 07:13:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KECx3u009816; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:13:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KECu3x009795; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:12:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:12:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.6.97] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:12:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050820141235.WEFP3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > Interestingly enough the other night I was watching a > programme on Michael Faraday (whose house I pass by > every Sunday morning). How inspiring that must be! > It will be interesting to find out if anyone else can > see what I have seen. Bien sûr! But, do you distinguish among the terms: Beta atm Aether Dirac Sea ZPF BTW, here's a nice cutaway of a magnetron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Magnetron2.jpg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 07:27:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KEQuri014267; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:27:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KEQsjA014245; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:26:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:26:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.6.97] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:26:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050820142633.WIFZ3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > In February of 1940, the English researchers tested > their first working cavity magnetron. They were amazed > to find that it produced over 400 watts of power at > the extremely short wavelength of 9.8 cm (about 4 inches). > This was nearly a hundred times more power than anyone > else had ever produced at that wavelength. A cursory google does not return the COP of a magnetron. Has anyone seen it measured? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 08:15:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KFEedK031825; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:15:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KFEcWt031804; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:14:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:14:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.6.97] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:14:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050820151417.WWOX3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > A cursory google does not return the COP of a magnetron. Has anyone seen it measured? I have found several webpages which say that the microwave conversion efficiency is up to 78%. There's no mention of the heat given off. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 08:15:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KFEhj4031866; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:14:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KFEgdM031847; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:14:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:14:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20050820151418305.4A77C1C000E2 mwinf3001.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050820151419.009aa5a0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:14:19 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7KFENNV031714 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:12 am 20/08/2005 -0400, Terry wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> Interestingly enough the other night I was watching a >> programme on Michael Faraday (whose house I pass by >> every Sunday morning). > How inspiring that must be! >> It will be interesting to find out if anyone else can >> see what I have seen. > Bien sûr! But, do you distinguish among the terms: > > Beta atm > Aether > Dirac Sea > ZPF Good question. You could have added Casimir pressure for good measure. 8-) My preferred term is Beta-atmosphere since I find the analogy with atmospheric pressure useful - and it arises naturally if one starts one's analysis with sands and clays which are held together by Alpha-atmospheric pressure in the case of coarse sands (pF < 15 psi) and Beta-atmospheric pressure in the case of clays, say. (pF > 15 psi). Also, the Beta-atmosphere harks back to our foundation paper of 1969.... ================================================== GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. Structure, Solid Mechanics and Engineering Design. Proceedings of the Southampton 1969 Civil Engineering Conference. (M.Te'eni, Ed.), Wiley Interscience, pp 681 - 691, 1972. ================================================== ....so I'm rather fond of it for sentimental reasons. I use the term Beta-aether when I want to stress that it is one component of a hierarchy of aether pressures (cf. the hierarchy of Alpha atmospheric partial pressures of the various gasses). The trouble with the terms Dirac Sea and ZPF is these don't convey the same degree of tangibility as the Beta- names. As far as I know, no one else has suggested that attractive forces, like bonds, etc., are simply negations of real external pressures which hold materials together. Even the treatment of Casimir pressure (an external force if ever there was one) is very ambivalent. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 08:20:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KFJRfI002437; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:19:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KFJLc3002393; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:19:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:19:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050820151854.90810.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050820142633.WIFZ3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote from Fran Grimers interesting thoughts on the cavity magnetron.... > A cursory google does not return the COP of a > magnetron. Has anyone seen it measured? I have seen the figure of 70% eff for the oven-type units, but do not have a handy reference. The main losses are cathode heating and tube heating. Many tubes are heavily finned to dissipate heat. The magnetron was definitely amazing in comparison to radio tubes ("valves" to the Brits), because normal tubes in the 1940s were around 20-40% eff. while the magnetron was nearly double that. Some of the higher eff. is due to higher power - as all RF tubes get more eff. in general, as they get larger, since the cathode heating losses are less, percentagewise. I suppose that an electric --> electric COP of .8 is possible with a cold cathode magnetron of a kilowatt RF output. Maybe higher for certain uses - as they have been proposed as a way to get solar energy back to earth from orbiting satellites. The ground antenna would be 95% so the net would be ~75% which doesn't sound that good untill you realize that even if copper wires would stretch that far (~22,000 miles), they would likely not do much better. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 09:13:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KGCbmF012761; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:12:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KGCYPc012717; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:12:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:12:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43075657.5070704 sumosound.de> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:12:07 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron References: <2.2.32.20050820151419.009aa5a0 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050820151419.009aa5a0 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > > You could have added Casimir pressure for good measure. 8-) > > My preferred term is Beta-atmosphere since I find the analogy > with atmospheric pressure useful - and it arises naturally if > one starts one's analysis with sands and clays which are held > together by Alpha-atmospheric pressure in the case of coarse > sands (pF < 15 psi) and Beta-atmospheric pressure in the case > of clays, say. (pF > 15 psi). Moin Frank, So, you are basically changing the baseline for pressure to 15psi, but you do still agree with the majority of the scientific community, that all pressure is positive with relation to no pressure, and that there is no such thing as negative pressure with relation to no pressure. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 09:38:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KGbjud027356; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:38:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KGbhuW027336; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:37:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:37:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.6.97] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:37:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050820163721.XWTP3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jones Beene > I have seen the figure of 70% eff for the oven-type > units, but do not have a handy reference. Never mind, I found plenty. Sure seems to be a lot of heat coming from my microwave oven magnetron. I gues no one has really done the calorimetry. BTW, I am struck by the graphic similarity of these two cross sections: http://www.iter.org/what.htm http://home.cvc.org/microwaves/HowMagnetronWorks.htm a nonsensical relationship; but, somehow jungian. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 10:53:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KHrNTl025248; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:53:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KHrLTL025230; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:53:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:53:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.6.97] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Bedtime for Gonzo Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:53:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050820175301.YVZH3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <84MIXD.A.KKG.R42BDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hunter S. Thompson's last wishes honored: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4168266.stm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 11:07:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KI2QQH028559; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:02:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KI2P5H028539; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:02:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:02:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050820180200.0099d408 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:02:00 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:12 pm 20/08/2005 +0200, you wrote: >Grimer wrote: > >> >> You could have added Casimir pressure for good measure. 8-) >> >> My preferred term is Beta-atmosphere since I find the analogy >> with atmospheric pressure useful - and it arises naturally if >> one starts one's analysis with sands and clays which are held >> together by Alpha-atmospheric pressure in the case of coarse >> sands (pF < 15 psi) and Beta-atmospheric pressure in the case >> of clays, say. (pF > 15 psi). > > Moin Frank, > > So, you are basically changing the baseline for pressure to 15psi, but > you do still agree with the majority of the scientific community, that > all pressure is positive with relation to no pressure, and that there is > no such thing as negative pressure with relation to no pressure. > > Knuke No, no, no, noooooo! My fault - I'm afraid I expressed things badly. pF is a log scale of suction, of negative pressure taking atmospheric pressure as datum. Normally people think of -15psi as zero pressure (stress) and anything lower than that they think of in terms of tension. I am saying that tension is only the absence of some unappreciated pressure (the Beta-atmosphere pressure in the case of macro material). Since for me, tension - action at a distance - is a negation the words pressure and stress are interchangeable. In the case of steel for example, tension is a reduction in the EXTERNAL Beta-atmosphere pressure which holds the steel together in an analogous way to air pressure holds an evacuated plastic bag of table-tennis balls together. If you really want to get things straightened out you need to read the three key publications listed below. which are all available as .jpeg page scans on various Yahoo sites. The ideas are very easy to follow, albeit difficult to accept because of their obvious far reaching implications. The ideas are certainly not in danger of straining *your* brain. Jones and Horace seemed to manage OK. ========================================= REFERENCES ========================================= GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. Structure, Solid Mechanics and Engineering Design. Proceedings of the Southampton 1969 Civil Engineering Conference. (M.Te'eni, Ed.), Wiley Interscience, pp 681 - 691, 1972. CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. A General Approach to the Strength of Materials. Speculations in Science and Technology, Vol.1, No.1, pp5 - 13, 1978. CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept with particular reference to concrete. Developments in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318. ================================================ Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 13:09:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KK8Wgf022487; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:08:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KK8Rrd022442; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:08:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:08:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050820130637.02971150 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:07:37 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Letter to Congress In-Reply-To: <20050819212841.ZBAC9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellso uth.net> References: <20050819212841.ZBAC9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0_h22C.A.ieF.724BDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Can you tell me more about these requests off line? What they look like? Any ideas where they are coming from? May I can help. Thanks, Steve At 02:28 PM 8/19/2005, you wrote: >Vorts, > >I have had a number of requests lately for a form letter which could be >used to write Congress on the idiocy of the DOE and failure to support >LENR research. > >Has anyone done one lately? > >TIA, > >Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 10:14:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KHEG7F008794; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:14:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KHE9l9008746; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:14:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:14:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050820171341.98235.qmail web81107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:13:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Microwave MAHG? To: ah-gen yahoogroups.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: The following URL is the Marchese "rocket engine" pdf file, mentioned previously, which may have some relevance to the MAHG (if and when reliable numbers, indicating large OU are forthcoming): engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/final-niac.pdf The connection to keep in mind is that Microwave input, even at only a few watts, may be a preferable way to achieve the anomalous MAHG effect. Obviously, the present experimental set-up of Naudin, or something close, needs to be replicated first before moving forward to potential improvements. And it goes without saying that as of now, few observers are confident in the numbers which have been published. Consequently, all of these following comments are premised on there being a real anomaly here, which can be replicated. From there on - there are many possibilites for improvement. If indeed only 5 watts of input is being used for the MAHG anomaly, then if applied at the resonant frequency of neutral atomic hydrogen - 1420 MHz (1.42 GHz), this form of microwave energy would seem to offer better coupling to hydrogen than a pulsed tungsten cathode. This would be true, even if the anomaly were a surface effect of the the gas-metal interface - such as is seen in LENR, since a large anode surface can be made available in either situation. Also IF ... the pulsing itself, and the low duty cycle in particualar, are shown to be a necessary parameter for the anomaly, then there is no reason why a magnetron cannot be pulsed to achieve better coupling. Marchese/Mills got surprising results in the "rocket engine" using a non-resonant frequency (2.45 Ghz) in a non-resonant tube with no surface effect. Had they used the resonant frequency of hydrogen in a correctly dimensioned tube, and they not been reliant on the constant flow of hydrogen at what seems to be too low a pressure, then it concievable that several orders of magnitude better results could be possible. But again, this conclusion is based upon transposing the previous MAHG results, and translating those parameters, which are far from certain (in relaibility), into a new situation. IOW, my feeling is the Mills/Marchese "rocket" experiment missed optimiztion on almost every parameter - frequency, dimension and pressurization - yet still showed an energy anomaly. This may indicate that a robust source of previously unknown energy is availabe in amny types of Microwave-powered cells, and that may or may not be related back to the "hydrino". Since Mills has been at this for 15 years, one would be wise to suspect that his hydrino concept is responsible for both the BLP results and the MAHG, but neither should anyone rule out the prospect that some other modality is at work. It is too bad that more detailed results, like the Marchese experiment, are not available from BLP. As mentioned in a previous posting, the interesting thing about the 1420 MHz frequency in the overall analysis of MAHG, is that this seems to be very close to the exact collision rate of the atoms in the present MAHG device. IOW, if you figure the MFP of the hydrogen molecules at the particular temperature which is necessary to provide the delta-t which is claimed, and at the claimed fill of 80 torr. then the kinetic collision rate per molecule per second is very close to 1,420,000,000. Of course a kinetic collision rate and frequency of EM radiation are NOT normally related in any form that could be said to be causal. Perhaps this is "only" coincidental and unrelated ... that is, if you believe in coincidence. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 13:43:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KKggPq002295; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:42:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KKgg5M002290; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:42:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:42:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430795AE.5080208 sumosound.de> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:42:22 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron References: <2.2.32.20050820180200.0099d408 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050820180200.0099d408 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <29dOJ.A.uj.BX5BDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > The ideas are certainly not in danger of straining *your* brain. > Jones and Horace seemed to manage OK. Yeah Ok, I usually strain my noodle about a minute after it comes to a boil, then I recall the exhortations of my parents to use it, and I reluctantly attempt to do so. I think that even though we are both quite fluent in English, we are talking two different languages, but that is OK. I never understood what my parents were telling me either. My background in vacuum technologies comes from my work on large refrigeration systems and desalinization gear. The gauges go down to zero (1 atm), and then start reading in Inches of Mercury. As far as I know, no one has ever achieved a perfect vacuum, nor has anyone managed to suck beyond that point (although Halliburton and the legal department of Microsoft are competing intensely for that honor). I have had some training and practical experience in structural engineering, but not that much. I have done very little work with concrete, but I have done more than a bit with steel. I will root around for your papers, try and shift into your language set, and see if they make any sense to me. Hopefully, visualizing concepts that I have always applied to gas technologies to solid material will not require the use of psychedelics. Knuke PS Jones and Horace are geniuses. So are Fred and Bill. I have to stop several times and start over when counting my toes. Ask anybody. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 13:57:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KKuSNQ009834; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:56:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KKuR7B009796; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:56:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:56:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.22.108] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Letter to Congress Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:56:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050820205605.CXSG28589.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Steven Krivit > Can you tell me more about these requests off line? What they look > like? Any ideas where they are coming from? > May I can help. Yes. It's mostly friends and coworkers who have listened to me about peak oil. They range from professionals to burger flippers. Of course, they already knew I was a crackpot about exotic hydrogen energy. :-) Seems they have begun their own research re: Hubbert Peak and the truth about our oil supply and are realizing that they will never see $2/gal gas again. Many are dumping their SUVs and pickups. In a company gathering I stood up to speak and mentioned that rapid transit and commuter rail will (our business) will prosper in two years when gas hits $5/gal . . . well, you can guess the reaction. I started writing a form letter and found it difficult not to come off acerbic. You know me, I'm not the type to write the kind of letter a Senator's aide will actually read. I was using phrases like "national emergency" and "manhattan project" and too many web references. Come up with something good (or several) and post it on your web site. Nothing like a good letter writing campaign to get Congress' attention. It has damned sure worked against those who say we should adopt the same nutrient supplement laws which have recently passed in Germany. Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 14:10:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KLAGNo014437; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:10:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KLAErI014421; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:10:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:10:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4404j6$19tqmj8 mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,128,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1407015528:sNHT25944932" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Microwave MAHG? Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:09:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Sez: ... > As mentioned in a previous posting, the interesting > thing about the 1420 MHz frequency in the overall > analysis of MAHG, is that this seems to be very close > to the exact collision rate of the atoms in the > present MAHG device. IOW, if you figure the MFP of the > hydrogen molecules at the particular temperature which > is necessary to provide the delta-t which is claimed, > and at the claimed fill of 80 torr. then the kinetic > collision rate per molecule per second is very close > to 1,420,000,000. Of course a kinetic collision rate > and frequency of EM radiation are NOT normally related > in any form that could be said to be causal. If there is a correlation between 80 torr and the collision rate, wouldn't it imply that if the pressure were increased the collision rate would rise as well? Hypothetically speaking, the MHz frequency should therefore increase as well, wouldn't it? And if so, would it be advantageous to increase the frequency - assuming there is a correlation? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 15:48:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KMmGka013535; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:48:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KMmFlb013514; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:48:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:48:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050820224749.92344.qmail web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:47:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Microwave MAHG? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4404j6$19tqmj8 mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- OrionWorks wrote: > If there is a correlation between 80 torr and the > collision rate, wouldn't it imply that if the > pressure were increased the collision rate would > rise as well? Yes. > Hypothetically speaking, the MHz > frequency should therefore increase as well, > wouldn't it? Yes. > And if so, would it be advantageous to increase the > frequency - assuming there is a correlation? Probably not, assuming you mean "advantageous to increase the collision frequency above the resonance level, which is where the anomaly occurs." But are you confusing the two phenomena? Even though a kinetic collision rate and a EM frequency are separate dynamic processes and supposedly minimally or unrelated (at least nothing has turned up yet in the literature to indicate a huge connection), it would be interesting to see if there was synergy between the two, since in MAHG there is this coincidental linkage. But even if not - the most efficient way to get the kinetic rate up to the level where the anomaly occurs would seem to be resonant microwaves. Presently, the cathode is doing the heating of the bulk of gas by convection with some radiation at IR and higher frequencies), which is not as efficient compared to coupling to a resonant EM wave. I cannot believe that the present 50 Hz rate is a variable which improves anything, although the low duty cycle is an intriguing variable. BTW the reason that water and fat heat up fast in a microwave oven is that the OH radical, in H-OH and present in all fats, has a resonance which is a harmonic of 2.45 GHz which is the oven frequency. Actually 1.42 GHz is also close to being a harmonic, which is why the Marchese hydrino rocket engine works. The idea of matching up photon resonance with kinetic resonance is something which I expected to find some direct prior research on. Google returns 325 hits on photon-phonon resonance but so far no experiment looks comparable. That apparent lack of a direct experimental validation could mean that there is no benefit, or else nobody has really thought to to do this exact thing. The "no benefit" is probably the right answer. In prior posts to vortex, the LENR rate and the phonon frequency of a Pd electrode was speculated to be improved if stimulated by a terahertz laser which matched that kinetic rate (which is obviously higher by a factor of 1000 than the MAHG). The older speculation, of course, is likely where this present idea originated in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right, but thus far neither idea has been shown to be wrong or right, so you can add this to the long list of "experiments which we wish had been done previously." Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 16:41:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7KNfTDg032333; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:41:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7KNfSnr032313; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:41:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:41:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.33.54] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Microwave MAHG? Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:41:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050820234106.MBTF9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jones Beene > . . .it would be interesting > to see if there was synergy between the two, since in > MAHG there is this coincidental linkage. What the honorable Jones intended to say, I sure, is that there appears to be such a linkage. We don't know for sure what the density of the H2 is. The most honorable Fred based his calculation, er, the GSU webpage calculation, on an assumed density based on what Naudin said the pressure was inside the tube. It is a trivial thing to measure the presence of a 1.42 GHz signal in the MAHG tube whose intended resonance *is* 2.45 GHz, which close to a 1/3 subharmonic of the resonant frequency of water, 7.533 GHz. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 18:04:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7L143wV023814; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:04:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7L141MB023773; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:04:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:04:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050820170938.0286c8b8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:03:16 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Letter to Congress In-Reply-To: <20050820205605.CXSG28589.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050820205605.CXSG28589.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Very interesting. Thanks for the local news report from your neck of the wood. I think I can best help at the moment by continuing to focus my time on providing original research and investigative reports/interviews which others can hopefully use as reference. JohhnyC - Do you have any interest in the form letter Terry's talking about? I'll provide support for you if you can take the lead on it. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 18:05:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7L15EgD024320; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:05:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7L15D9H024303; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:05:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:05:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050820180424.028676f0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:04:37 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Krivit Presentation/Paper for ICENES 2005, 26 August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_104328484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <3w9SbD.A.q7F.IN9BDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_104328484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-HowCanItBeReal-Paper.pdf http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-HowCanItBeReal-Presentation.pdf --=====================_104328484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-HowCanItBeReal-Paper.pdf

http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-HowCanItBeReal-Presentation.pdf

 --=====================_104328484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 18:10:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7L1A9Pb026025; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:10:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7L1A0op025956; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:10:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:10:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050820180802.029a3288 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:09:17 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Peak Oil In-Reply-To: <20050820205605.CXSG28589.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050820205605.CXSG28589.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Seems they have begun their own research re: Hubbert Peak and the truth >about our oil supply and are realizing that they will never see $2/gal gas >again. Many are dumping their SUVs and pickups. In a company gathering I >stood up to speak and mentioned that rapid transit and commuter rail will >(our business) will prosper in two years when gas hits $5/gal . . . well, >you can guess the reaction. Terry, any idea how they are tuned into Hubbert's Peak / Peak Oil? I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage, though my head's so deep in cf, I could easily miss it. Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 18:48:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7L1mB7N015728; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:48:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7L1mA8Y015718; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:48:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:48:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.33.54] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Peak Oil Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:47:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050821014749.NIQG9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <5JfJNC.A.i1D.Z19BDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Steven Krivit > Terry, any idea how they are tuned into Hubbert's Peak / Peak Oil? http://tinyurl.com/ax8yn 42,300 > I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage, though my head's so deep in cf, > I could easily miss it. Does 'cf' have multiple meanings? Thanks for the offer. Don't worry about it. I'll handle it. It's only a couple of hundred people. Thanks again, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 20:30:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7L3UI4D022580; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:30:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7L3UDWl022551; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:30:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050821032956.009b405c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:29:56 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: <58QPQD.A.OgF.EV_BDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since the Beta-atmosphere is a doppelganger of the Alpha-atmosphere there is no reason why one should not construct a cavity magnetron equivalent for the Alpha-atmosphere using air - or even a cavity magnetron equivalent for the Alpha-Beta overlap using water. Immediately one thinks along these lines it becomes bloody obvious what the real secret of the cavity magnetron is. Do you remember the water based vacuum pumps one used in chemistry class - the ones where a constrained jet of water passes though and sucks air out of the connected vacuum apparatus. Well, the Beta-atmosphere stream as manifested by the electron swirl passing over the magnetron cavity openings is acting just like that jet of water. The Beta-atmosphere is being sucked out of the cavities which are consequently at a sustained reduced Beta-aether pressure. No wonder "Randall & Hopkirk (Deceased)" got such a shock at the 100fold increase in power. Increasing differential B-a pressure must be analogous, say, to increasing differential temperature in the Carnot Cycle. My goodness me! It's so obvious when you can see it. What a laugh! 8-) Presumably that's why the walls of the cavity have to be so chunky. If they were thin the cavities would be crushed by the difference in Beta-atmosphere pressure. Mmm... And I thought I was going to have to persuade people to investigate the mild steel cup and cone cavity as described in the Infinite Energy paper (Issue 46, pp. 28-33). The cavity magnetron is a much sexier option, eh! Now the interesting question is, what happens if you introduce deuterium into the reduced Beta-atmosphere pressure cavities? Be careful lads - I don't want you blowing yourselves up. Cheers, Frank Grimer [I wonder if the MIB look at these posts. Nah! they are far too stupid. Mind you, if they do read 'em, they'll soon be coming for you, boys, so make sure all your affairs are in order. 8-) ] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 20 21:01:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7L40hVO000616; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:00:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7L40gwo000602; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:00:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:00:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050821040025.0099caac pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:00:25 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:42 pm 20/08/2005 +0200, Knuke wrote: > Grimer wrote: > >> The ideas are certainly not in danger of straining *your* brain. >> Jones and Horace seemed to manage OK. > Yeah Ok, I usually strain my noodle about a minute after it comes to a > boil, then I recall the exhortations of my parents to use it, and I > reluctantly attempt to do so. I think that even though we are both > quite fluent in English, we are talking two different languages, but > that is OK. I never understood what my parents were telling me either. > > My background in vacuum technologies comes from my work on large > refrigeration systems and desalinization gear. The gauges go down to > zero (1 atm), and then start reading in Inches of Mercury. As far as I > know, no one has ever achieved a perfect vacuum, nor has anyone managed > to suck beyond that point (although Halliburton and the legal department > of Microsoft are competing intensely for that honor). > > I have had some training and practical experience in structural > engineering, but not that much. I have done very little work with > concrete, but I have done more than a bit with steel. I will root > around for your papers, No need to root around. Emulate the medical students who, when being asked by their examiner to say what a patient is suffering from, surreptitiously ask the patient. You will find two of the papers in the file section of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ and the book chapter in the photo section. > P.S. Jones and Horace are geniuses. So are Fred and Bill. Very true. But you know what they say, Knukey. "It takes one to know one." ;-) Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 05:12:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LCCShg016579; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:12:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LCCPSt016559; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:12:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:12:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43086F9F.4060305 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:12:15 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Krivit Presentation/Paper for ICENES 2005, 26 August References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050820180424.028676f0 mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050820180424.028676f0 mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-HowCanItBeReal-Paper.pdf > > http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-HowCanItBeReal-Presentation.pdf > Steven the caltech data table, slide 9 of the power point, has two Pin columns. Should the first be a Pout? Is this error in the original? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 07:22:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LELWFn006623; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:21:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LELVim006604; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:21:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:21:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.164.16] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Chemtrails Legalized? Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:21:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050821142103.GYSG3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Senate Bill S 517 certain seems to do so: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s517is.txt or http://tinyurl.com/7puwc and an editorial: http://www.willthomas.net/Convergence/Weekly/Chemtrails.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 08:00:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LExjoC021880; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:00:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LExhxD021849; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:59:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:59:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [67.33.164.16] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: BEC Manuscript Found Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:59:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050821145922.HFKB3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <0N_W.A.UVF.fbJCDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166320,00.html They found the original. The imaged page on Fox shows the old style "cut and paste". :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 08:34:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LFYBcQ005047; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:34:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LFY97c005034; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:34:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:34:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vi4h$17qg3bi mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,129,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1336413554:sNHT17218342" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Microwave MAHG? - and Pd surface topology Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:33:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7qUKlC.A.mOB.x7JCDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jones sez: > > OrionWorks sez: > > > If there is a correlation between 80 torr and the > > collision rate, wouldn't it imply that if the > > pressure were increased the collision rate would > > rise as well? > > Yes. > > > Hypothetically speaking, the MHz > > frequency should therefore increase as well, > > wouldn't it? > > Yes. > > > And if so, would it be advantageous to increase the > > frequency - assuming there is a correlation? > > Probably not, assuming you mean "advantageous to > increase the collision frequency above the resonance > level, which is where the anomaly occurs." I meant in turns of increasing indications of OU in the measured COP. > But are you confusing the two phenomena? I don't believe I was. I'm aware EM frequency is a separate "phenomena" from the collusion rate. I'm aware that you are speculating that in this case, however, the two "phenomena" might possibly be in cahoots together. > Even though a kinetic > collision rate and a EM frequency are separate dynamic > processes and supposedly minimally or unrelated (at > least nothing has turned up yet in the literature to > indicate a huge connection), it would be interesting > to see if there was synergy between the two, since in > MAHG there is this coincidental linkage. Yes, indeed. That is why I was speculating on the premice of if the TORR was increased this would mean the collusion rate would also have to increase correspondingly - which, if I understand you correctly, would mean the EM frequency would correspondingly increase as well. I'm assuing a higher EM frequency might result in greater observed energy, though that is sheer speculation on my part. My admittedly layman's perception on the matter was approaching it from the point of view that if the process could be driven at a higher entergetic level would there might be an increase in the overall OU & COP observed. I freely admit my math on this is nil. > But even if not - the most efficient way to get the > kinetic rate up to the level where the anomaly occurs > would seem to be resonant microwaves. Presently, the > cathode is doing the heating of the bulk of gas by > convection with some radiation at IR and higher > frequencies), which is not as efficient compared to > coupling to a resonant EM wave. I cannot believe that > the present 50 Hz rate is a variable which improves > anything, although the low duty cycle is an intriguing > variable. The 50 Hz cycle rate has long been a bone of contention within the vort discussion group. We keep wondering why Naudin appears to have focused on 50 Hz as compared to something much higher. I, too, which seem believe 50 Hz is insainly low. And then there's the issue of the nation's electrical grid pegged at 50 Hz and ALL SORTS of speculations have been bandied about on THAT matter. BTW: Just how strong is the argument that the 5% duty cycle which appears to have resulted in a COP of over 20 in Naudin's most recent posted results is due to an oversight, a miscalculation of not taking into account the other 95% of the "time" cycle between duty cycles when the device is, well for a better term, off duty. I bring this up because several posters have strongly suggested that the latest seemingly impressive COP figures seem to go almost hand-in-hand with the decrease in the duty cycle used, the implication being that it's highly suspicious. It is probably obvious to you that I'm struggling here with my use of the prevailing technical jargon in my attempts not to come off as a complete ignoramus on this subject. ;-) > BTW the reason that water and fat heat up fast in a > microwave oven is that the OH radical, in H-OH and > present in all fats, has a resonance which is a > harmonic of 2.45 GHz which is the oven frequency. > Actually 1.42 GHz is also close to being a harmonic, > which is why the Marchese hydrino rocket engine works. For the theoretical BLP rocket engine to work, assuming there really IS extra energy involved here, doesn't it eventually come down to how much hydrogen one can carry on board. Doesn't it boil down to how big a pile of rocks must be kept on board a boat that eventually have to be hurled overboard (creating the famous Newtonian mass/reaction observation) in order to push the boat forward? > The idea of matching up photon resonance with kinetic > resonance is something which I expected to find some > direct prior research on. Google returns 325 hits on > photon-phonon resonance but so far no experiment looks > comparable. That apparent lack of a direct > experimental validation could mean that there is no > benefit, or else nobody has really thought to to do > this exact thing. The "no benefit" is probably the > right answer. I've often been a big fan getting in step, so to speak, in making "resonance" work to one's advantage. > In prior posts to vortex, the LENR rate and the phonon > frequency of a Pd electrode was speculated to be > improved if stimulated by a terahertz laser which > matched that kinetic rate (which is obviously higher > by a factor of 1000 than the MAHG). The older > speculation, of course, is likely where this present > idea originated in the first place. Two wrongs don't > make a right, but thus far neither idea has been shown > to be wrong or right, so you can add this to the long > list of "experiments which we wish had been done > previously." I have also heard of the CF experiment where laser EM was used to apparently increase the observed resultant heat. It is indeed interesting that the observed improvement seems to coincide with, as you say, the matched kinetic rate of the far more dense Pd medium as compared to an 80 TORR filled MAHG device. The following personal observation is coached in purely intuitive (non-scientific) terms here. So FWIW: I can't help but speculate that as nano-technology improves it may become highly advantageous to apply nano-sized grooves and/or "bumps" in the Pd surface where the reaction is allegedly occurring. I'm suggesting that three carefully controlled factors may improve the reaction significantly: That (1) the careful topological construction of nano-sized grooves (peaks and valleys) the size of specific angstron wave lengths that (2) might ALSO coincide with the wave lengths of the laser EM frequency being used and (3) might ALSO coincide with the so-called harmonic kinetic energy of the density of the Pd material itself might increase the reaction by a significant amount, perhaps on the level of several magnitudes. Said differently, I'm speculating that carefully constructed nono-sized topology of the Pd surface might need to be carefully engineered to take advantage of laser induced EM interference patters that, in turn, would bounce off various nano-constructed Pd surfaces wh! ere "CF" reactions might turn out to be significantly enhanced. I suspect some high-powered (and no-doubt expensive) Finite Element software dealing with surface topology and EM wave lengths might be needed in order to work out the most advantageous surface geometry. Gak! That was a mouth full. Hopefully some of it made some sense. > Jones Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 09:16:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LGFpDi027038; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:16:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LGFnOi027017; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:15:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <039a01c5a66b$8dcc5fe0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: And Then There Were Four Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:15:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0397_01C5A64A.06781190" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0397_01C5A64A.06781190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just updated the Ongoing Commercial Developments section of the = peswiki cold fusion summary. I now list four companies as actively = pursuing cold fusion commercialization. JET of Wesley, MA is now = included (JET should have been included originally as they are one of = the longest established companies researching cold fusion). I also = expanded the Entergetics write up and included more up to date = information on D2Fusion's plans. If anyone can contribute to this = section, please either update it yourself or send me an email. Am I = missing any companies that are actively pursuing cold fusion = commercialization? =20 http://peswiki.com/energy/PowerPedia:Cold_fusion#Ongoing_developments ------=_NextPart_000_0397_01C5A64A.06781190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just updated the Ongoing Commercial = Developments=20 section of the peswiki cold fusion summary.  I now list four = companies as=20 actively pursuing cold fusion commercialization.  JET of Wesley, = MA is=20 now included (JET should have been included originally as they are one = of the=20 longest established companies researching cold fusion).  I=20 also expanded the Entergetics write up and included more up to date = information on D2Fusion's plans.  If anyone can contribute to this = section,=20 please either update it yourself or send me an email.  Am I missing = any=20 companies that are actively pursuing cold fusion = commercialization? =20
 
http://peswiki.com/energy/PowerPedia:Cold_fusion#Ongoing_developmen= ts
------=_NextPart_000_0397_01C5A64A.06781190-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 09:55:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LGsiKZ017088; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:54:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LGsgMO017055; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:54:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:54:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4308B1BA.5060603 sumosound.de> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:54:18 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Chemtrails Legalized? References: <20050821142103.GYSG3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050821142103.GYSG3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Senate Bill S 517 certain seems to do so: > > http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s517is.txt > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/7puwc > > and an editorial: > > http://www.willthomas.net/Convergence/Weekly/Chemtrails.htm Moin Terry, There was a guy on the FreeNRG group that was telling us that this was happening some years ago. He was a foreign guy that was living in Montana, I think. He was saying that the chemicals where making a lot of people and cattle sick. Some of the group speculated at the time that this might be some kind of secret immunization plan by our government to protect us against some kind of bio-attack. The combination of this guy's bad English, and the total unbelievability of the story made me think that he was just a wacko. By the way, you posted a link to a story in the Berkeley Wellness Newsletter about a nutritional supplement that you were taking. I noticed that Dr. Lester Packer was mentioned. He is a family friend of a very good friend of mine, who is now also living here in Germany. She and Dr. Packer's son, David, aka Lesser Packer, grew up together in the Bay area. Both Packers did time at Lawrence Livermore, as well. This woman is suffering from Multiple Sclerosis, and became a walking encyclopedia on nutritional supplements after nearly dying in a UC Davis study. There were 30 original participants in the study, and 6 died before they finally brought it to a halt. She hasn't been to a regular doctor since, and although she has had her bad moments, she is currently enjoying remarkably good health. I don't know how she is going to react to the news that Germany is doing something as stupid as this spraying of barium/aluminium compounds. We both came over here to get away from stuff like that. Are you aware of how widespread this practice has become? Like, how many countries are doing this, and which ones are they? I read some years ago a company prospectus that was suggesting doing this to track weather patterns, but it was a Russian company, and I just figured that the West would never be so insane as to even consider this sort of thing. As Gomer Pile used to say, "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!". Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 10:13:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LHCWDp024082; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:12:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LHCUPf024060; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:12:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:12:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <03ca01c5a673$79d8ac20$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Is iESiUSA For Real? Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:12:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03C7_01C5A651.F281ECD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03C7_01C5A651.F281ECD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just tried to look up iESiUSA's patent applications and suppossedly = approved patent numbers on the USPTO website. Guess what? Nothing by = the name of iESiUSA or any of their provided number can be found in the = USPTO database?!? What to think? Not a good sign from a company making = extrodinary claims. Look for yourself: http://assignments.uspto.gov/assignments/?db=3Dpat http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html For the numbers, see: http://www.iesiusa.com/intellectual.html ------=_NextPart_000_03C7_01C5A651.F281ECD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just tried to look up iESiUSA's patent applications and = suppossedly=20 approved patent numbers on the USPTO website.  Guess what?  = Nothing by=20 the name of iESiUSA or any of their provided number can be found in the = USPTO=20 database?!?  What to think?  Not a good sign from a company = making=20 extrodinary claims.  Look for yourself:
 
http://assign= ments.uspto.gov/assignments/?db=3Dpat
http://app= ft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html
 
For the numbers, see:
http://www.iesiusa.com/= intellectual.html
------=_NextPart_000_03C7_01C5A651.F281ECD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 10:31:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LHVKGJ003804; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:31:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LHVJjf003790; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:31:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:31:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050821102903.02990ff0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:30:36 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Krivit Presentation/Paper for ICENES 2005, 26 August In-Reply-To: <43086F9F.4060305 iinet.net.au> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050820180424.028676f0 mail.newenergytimes.com> <43086F9F.4060305 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sharp eye, you have there Mr. Bruce. Yes, it's in the original. I'll talk to Mel about it and see if I can get clarification/correction. Thank you VERY much! Steve At 05:12 AM 8/21/2005, you wrote: >Steven Krivit wrote: > >>http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-HowCanItBeReal-Paper.pdf >> >>http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-HowCanItBeReal-Presentation.pdf >Steven the caltech data table, slide 9 of the power point, has two Pin >columns. Should the first be a Pout? Is this error in the original? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 11:18:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LIHbqB025299; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:17:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LIHVto025135; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:17:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:17:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Is iESiUSA For Real? Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:21:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <03ca01c5a673$79d8ac20$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello John, I posted about this back in March, but to recap: The US applications are just that, applications. They are not patents. You're looking in the right spot, but they haven't published yet so no publication number and no love for you. When they publish, you will be able to read them. The Korean apps hadn't published in March when I looked, you can try again now at KIPRIS. The actual granted patents are all Romanian, pat #'s are sequential and US numbers are into the 6000000's now. 100000 would be in the colonial period... Try Espacenet for those patents, for example, RO112312 GAS-GAS TYPE HEAT EXCHANGERS WITH THERMIC TUBES All the Romanian IP looks to have been acquired rather than developed in house. You ask, "What to think?" I would say, exercise due diligence, and use the cortex part of the brain rather than the limbic system. Unfashionable advice these days, but what can I say, I've got to be me. K. -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello [mailto:johnwc patmedia.net] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 1:12 PM To: Vortex Subject: Is iESiUSA For Real? I just tried to look up iESiUSA's patent applications and suppossedly approved patent numbers on the USPTO website. Guess what? Nothing by the name of iESiUSA or any of their provided number can be found in the USPTO database?!? What to think? Not a good sign from a company making extrodinary claims. Look for yourself: http://assignments.uspto.gov/assignments/?db=pat http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html For the numbers, see: http://www.iesiusa.com/intellectual.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 12:19:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LJIMCs015557; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LJIK3b015529; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.52.35] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: [OT] Chemtrails Legalized? Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:17:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050821191752.LHHN28589.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Michael Huffman > Are you aware of how widespread this practice has become? This seems to be the definitive site: http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 15:23:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LMNCTE029154; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:23:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LMNA8o029138; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:23:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:23:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c5a69e$d9c61c50$4f037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Beta- atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:22:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C5A674.F06E1310"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C5A674.F06E1310 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002D_01C5A674.F06E1310" ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C5A674.F06E1310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote.. >Since the Beta-atmosphere is a doppelganger of the=20 Alpha-atmosphere there is no reason why one should=20 not construct a cavity magnetron equivalent for the=20 Alpha-atmosphere using air - or even a cavity=20 magnetron equivalent for the Alpha-Beta overlap using=20 water.=20 Immediately one thinks along these lines it becomes=20 bloody obvious what the real secret of the cavity=20 magnetron is.=20 Do you remember the water based vacuum pumps one used=20 in chemistry class - the ones where a constrained jet=20 of water passes though and sucks air out of the connected=20 vacuum apparatus. Obvious Frank has been examining his wife's perfume atomizer . = Actually one needs to look no further than the pipe organ at church. = Should one have an inclination toward the mischevious, one could " = re-arrange" the pipes to produce the correct resonance to shatter the = faux pax diamond broache worn by Mz Fine. sitting on the 18th pew. Frank = mentions an analogy to the pressure that " develops" inside the cavity. = A pipe organ fits that analogy. On the subject of socalled " absolute" vacuum. Absolute vacuum is = easily demonstrated by the use of a differential pressure gauge = disregarding hysteresis. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C5A674.F06E1310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer wrote..

>Since the Beta-atmosphere is a doppelganger of the =
Alpha-atmosphere=20 there is no reason why one should
not construct a cavity magnetron=20 equivalent for the
Alpha-atmosphere using air - or even a cavity=20
magnetron equivalent for the Alpha-Beta overlap using
water.=20

Immediately one thinks along these lines it becomes
bloody = obvious=20 what the real secret of the cavity
magnetron is.

Do you = remember the=20 water based vacuum pumps one used
in chemistry class - the ones = where a=20 constrained jet
of water passes though and sucks air out of the = connected=20
vacuum apparatus.

 

Obvious  Frank has been examining his wife's perfume atomizer=20 <grin>. Actually one needs to look no further than the pipe organ = at=20 church. Should one have an inclination toward the mischevious,  one = could "=20 re-arrange" the pipes to produce the correct resonance to shatter the = faux pax=20 diamond broache worn by Mz Fine. sitting on the 18th pew. Frank mentions = an=20 analogy to the pressure that " develops" inside the cavity. A pipe organ = fits=20 that analogy.

On the subject  of socalled " absolute" vacuum. Absolute vacuum = is=20 easily demonstrated by the use of a differential pressure gauge = disregarding=20 hysteresis.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C5A674.F06E1310-- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C5A674.F06E1310 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002b01c5a69e$d93e0090$4f037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C5A674.F06E1310-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 15:42:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7LMfnsg003000; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:42:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7LMfmQY002989; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:41:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:41:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:41:15 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: (Fwd) [jlnlabs] Vacuum = mass Message-ID: <4308D8DB.27877.75A0103 mark.cpovo.net> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.30 public beta 1) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:49:18 -0300 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 200.96.127.147 X-MDRemoteIP: 200.96.127.147 X-Return-Path: mark cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:49:18 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/ns-ijv081005.php ------- End of forwarded message ------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 21:14:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7M4E9TF008936; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:14:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7M4E72O008912; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:14:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:14:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822041346.009a25c4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 05:13:46 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:22 pm 21/08/2005 -0500, Richard wrote: > Grimer wrote.. >> Do you remember the water based vacuum pumps one used >> in chemistry class - the ones where a constrained jet >> of water passes though and sucks air out of the connected >> vacuum apparatus. > Obviously Frank has been examining his wife's perfume atomizer . Thanks for that example, Richard. That is a much better device than the one I suggested since it is the essence of simplicity from what I remember of my mother's scent spray. In the case of the old fashioned ones the two tubes are naked and their mutual geometry is obvious. I had looked up the well known Pitot tube as an alternative example but found the explanations confusing and contradictory in the sense that they seemed to adopt different datum pressures. The scent spray is excellent by comparison. What I find very interesting is that when I first encountered the cavity magnetron many years ago its working was a complete mystery to me and I could not see the significance of the cavities at all. Once one looks at it in terms of the Beta-atmosphere being a real atmosphere, just like the Alpha-atmosphere then it's like throwing the switch on a bright lamp. Things become very clear. As regards the Beta-atmosphere pressure drop, I rather jumped the gun there cos the cavities are in resonance which means that the dominant aspect is the oscillating pressure. This takes place so fast that the inertia of the magnetron walls will prevent significant deformations. If one could rectify the sine wave so as to get an RMS pressure drop then it would be a very different ball game. I suspect this is at the root of the Hutchison Effect. Unwittingly he has stumbled upon a way of doing this. A case of an uninhibited amateur rushing in where angels fear to tread. Once one realises that one is dealing with a real atmosphere then all sorts of interesting possibilities arise - like creating closed vortices - Beta-atmosphere smoke rings in other words. There is a wonderful Royal Institution demonstration of a smoke ring blowing generated at one end of the lecturers bench blowing out a candle at the other. The smoke ring box is first filled with smoke so that the ring is visible as it travels slowly the dozen or so feet towards the candle. Then the demonstration is repeated without smoke and the lectures starts a countdown. When he reaches zero the candle is blown out as though by magic. Before WWII there was a lot of interest in the possibility of a death ray knocking down enemy aircraft. The idea was researched and considered a non starter. But the investigation did give rise to something only a little less valuable, viz. radio location and radar. Had the authorities recognised the possibility of firing Beta-atmosphere closed vortices the "death ray" might have come to fruition. Who was it who made a great hoo-ha about something like this? I think it was Shoulders with his EVOs. I'll have to google it. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 21 22:59:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7M5xC3J014149; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:59:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7M5xAql014132; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:59:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:59:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20050822055843259.3F6A41C000E1 mwinf3001.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822055845.00974914 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:58:45 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:13 am 22/08/2005 +0100, Frank wrote: >Once one realises that one is dealing with a real >atmosphere then all sorts of interesting possibilities >arise - like creating closed vortices - >Beta-atmosphere smoke rings in other words. > >There is a wonderful Royal Institution demonstration >of a smoke ring blowing generated at one end of the >lecturers bench blowing out a candle at the other. >The smoke ring box is first filled with smoke so that >the ring is visible as it travels slowly the dozen or >so feet towards the candle. Then the demonstration is >repeated without smoke and the lectures starts a >countdown. When he reaches zero the candle is blown >out as though by magic. > >Before WWII there was a lot of interest in the >possibility of a death ray knocking down enemy aircraft. >The idea was researched and considered a non starter. >But the investigation did give rise to something only >a little less valuable, viz. radio location and radar. > >Had the authorities recognised the possibility of firing >Beta-atmosphere closed vortices the "death ray" might >have come to fruition. > >Who was it who made a great hoo-ha about something like >this? I think it was Shoulders with his EVOs. I'll have >to google it. > >Cheers, > >Frank Grimer Ain't Google wonderful 8-). I put - Shoulders EVO - in and straight away the article I was thinking of came up as the first of 18,500. The URL is, http://www.svn.net/krscfs/The%20Good%20The%20Bad%20And%20The%20Ugly.pdf "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY" is dated last August so it's pretty up to date as regards Shoulder's view of things. Interestingly enough, his first paragraph of "The Bad" section of his article could well be applied to Cold Fusion research. ===================================================== "In the experimental world there is a truism: If it has not happened, it probably will not happen. The thrust here is that it is very dangerous to predict too far into the future. Doing so usually brings bad news. Still, it is the life of the experimenter to go on into such darkness moving as deftly as possible but with caution. In the business of containing such eager particles, capable of fantastic energetic feats in the micro world, scaling to progressively larger samples is necessarily accompanied with caution. Many things can be learned using micro samples, but eventually, there comes a time when large samples are necessary. That time has arrived." ===================================================== The first sentence of "The Ugly" section reads, ===================================================== I think Hell has not a clue as to the fury of a bunch of electrons suddenly unleashed. ===================================================== Could an Alpha-atmosphere smoke ring (closed vortex) be seen as "furious"; more furious that is than simply blowing out a candle? Very definitely if the vortex is big enough. There have been instances where vortices shed by large airliners, such as the 747 have tipped over smaller airliners following in their wake. To be continued.... Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 02:42:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7M9ftlU020159; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:42:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7M9fqup020133; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:41:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:41:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:41:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Cold Fusion in Israel Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Can anyone explain the Super Wave theory? http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/ns-ijv081005.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 03:39:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MAd1n6005943; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:39:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MAcx0Q005905; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:38:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:38:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822103841.0095fab8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:38:41 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:58 am 22/08/2005 +0100, Frank wrote: >At 05:13 am 22/08/2005 +0100, Frank wrote: > > > >Ain't Google wonderful 8-). I put - Shoulders EVO - in and >straight away the article I was thinking of came up as the >first of 18,500. The URL is, > >http://www.svn.net/krscfs/The%20Good%20The%20Bad%20And%20The%20Ugly.pdf > >"THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY" is dated last August so >it's pretty up to date as regards Shoulder's view of things. > >Interestingly enough, his first paragraph of "The Bad" >section of his article could well be applied to Cold >Fusion research. > > ===================================================== > "In the experimental world there is a truism: > If it has not happened, it probably will not happen. > The thrust here is that it is very dangerous to > predict too far into the future. Doing so usually > brings bad news. Still, it is the life of the > experimenter to go on into such darkness moving as > deftly as possible but with caution. In the business > of containing such eager particles, capable of > fantastic energetic feats in the micro world, > scaling to progressively larger samples is > necessarily accompanied with caution. Many things > can be learned using micro samples, but eventually, > there comes a time when large samples are necessary. > That time has arrived." > ===================================================== > >The first sentence of "The Ugly" section reads, > > ===================================================== > I think Hell has not a clue as to the fury of a bunch > of electrons suddenly unleashed. > ===================================================== > >Could an Alpha-atmosphere smoke ring (closed vortex) be seen >as "furious"; more furious that is than simply blowing out a >candle? > >Very definitely if the vortex is big enough. There have been >instances where vortices shed by large airliners, such as >the 747 have tipped over smaller airliners following in their >wake. > >To be continued.... > >Frank Grimer Well I've had a good look at Shoulders's stuff but there's not really enough detail to make a judgment on the possibility of his EVOs being closed vortices or not. There are one or two tempting hints, like the fact that EVOs move around slowly, cf. smoke rings. Also, the fact he seems to collect them from the surface of glass plates is suggestive since surfaces are involved with "virtual particles" which are presumably some kind of *materon* polarization. Surfaces are the region where there must be interaction between neutral mass, neutral charge particles and electrons. One could easily build up a speculative mountain out of an experimental molehill but I think it is best to file the idea away in the "useful junk box" until some better piece of the jigsaw turns up. 8-) I was interested to note that Shoulders co-authored a paper with Jack Sarfatti. Mmm.....A way out thinker if ever there was one, if my google search on him is anything to go by. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 03:45:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MAj4gL007921; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:45:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MAj376007902; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:45:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:45:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006d01c5a706$7c67d8b0$0101a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: References: Subject: Re: Cold Electricity Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:44:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Was ther not something about this "Cold Elec" at the time when John Bedinni ws a rising star? If i remember correctly he said there was evidence of High voltage discharges with no IR2 heating? Anyone hear what hapened to him or his ideas? Rgds Noel Whitney ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 7:38 PM Subject: Cold Electricity > PES published the following article on E V Gray, > http://pesn.com/2005/08/19/9600152_EV_Gray_nephew/ > > Part of the discussion mentioned Peter Linderman's book on cold > electricity. Shortly after it's publication I emailed Peter and asked him > if there was any experimental evidence for what he was saying, or if he > was just selling books. I never received a reply, so I have relegated > Peter to the status of vaporware merchant. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 04:38:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MBcBEC025073; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:38:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MBc6fK025039; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:38:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:38:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5a6fb$be238c50$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <2.2.32.20050822041346.009a25c4 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:27:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <0SnlVB.A.LHG.ekbCDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, are you working towards saying that the "active areas" in "good" samples of cold fusion cathodes may be beta atmosphere "cavities" in the lattice that use ambient heat or sound vibration to generate colossal beta pressure and thereby fuse the entrained deuterium? I hadn't understood much what you were on about before but this organ pipe/magnetron/perfume spray analogy has just opened my eyes a little (I think)... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 05:50:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MCntcN027626; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 05:50:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MCnrB6027608; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 05:49:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 05:49:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 8:49:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050822124931.QJWE3503.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > I was interested to note that Shoulders co-authored a paper with > Jack Sarfatti. > > Mmm.....A way out thinker if ever there was one, if my google search > on him is anything to go by. He was normal until he got the phone call from Valis: http://www.disinfo.com/site/displayarticle2024.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 06:44:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MDhujn021377; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:44:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MDhrjj021358; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:43:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:43:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822134333.009b25a8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:43:33 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:58 am 22/08/2005 +0100, Frank wrote: > >The first sentence of Shoulders "The Ugly" section reads, > > ===================================================== > I think Hell has not a clue as to the fury of a bunch > of electrons suddenly unleashed. > ===================================================== > >Could an Alpha-atmosphere smoke ring (closed vortex) be seen >as "furious"; more furious that is than simply blowing out a >candle? > >Very definitely if the vortex is big enough. There have been >instances where vortices shed by large airliners, such as >the 747 have tipped over smaller airliners following in their >wake. > >To be continued.... > >Frank Grimer Having mentioned Hutchison previously in this thread I thought I had better revisit his stuff though not with any great enthusiasm since when I first investigated it I was appalled by his hopelessly disorganised approach. Fortunately, the first reference I came across was a concise summary of the work - NOT written by Hutchison. 8-) ============================================================== The Hutchison Effect -- An Explanation by Mark A. Solis People often ask, "What exactly is the Hutchison Effect?" This brief essay is an attempt to answer that question to the satisfaction of the majority. First of all, the Hutchison Effect is a collection of phenomena which were discovered accidentally by John Hutchison during attempts to study the longitudinal waves of Tesla back in 1979. In other words, the Hutchison Effect is not simply a singular effect. It is many. The Hutchison Effect occurs as the result of radio wave interferences in a zone of spatial volume encompassed by high voltage sources, usually a Van de Graff generator, and two or more Tesla coils. The effects produced include levitation of heavy objects, fusion of dissimilar materials such as metal and wood (exactly as portrayed in the movie, "The Philadelphia Experiment"), the anomalous heating of metals without burning adjacent material, spontaneous fracturing of metals (which separate by sliding in a sideways fashion), and both temporary and permanent changes in the crystalline structure and physical properties of metals. The levitation of heavy objects by the Hutchison Effect is not---repeat not---the result of simple electrostatic or electromagnetic levitation. Claims that these forces alone can explain the phenomenon are patently ridiculous, and easily disproved by merely trying to use such methods to duplicate what the Hutchison Effect has achieved, which has been well documented both on film and videotape, and has been witnessed many times by numerous credentialed scientists and engineers. Challengers should note that their apparatus must be limited to the use of 75 Watts of power from a 120 Volt AC outlet, as that is all that is used by Hutchison's apparatus to levitate a 60-pound cannon ball. The fusion of dissimilar materials, which is exceedingly remarkable, indicates clearly that the Hutchison Effect has a powerful influence on Van der Waals forces. In a striking and baffling contradiction, dissimilar substances can simply "come together," yet the individual substances do not dissociate. A block of wood can simply "sink into" a metal bar, yet neither the metal bar nor the block of wood come apart. Also, there is no evidence of displacement, such as would occur if, for example, one were to sink a stone into a bowl of water. The anomalous heating of metal without any evidence of burning or scorching of the adjacent materials (usually wood) is a clear indication that possibly the nature of heat may not be completely understood. This has far-reaching implications for thermodynamics, which hinges entirely on the presumption of such knowledge. It should be noted that the entirety of thermodynamics is represented by the infrared portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, which is insignificant in a context of 0 Hz to infinite Hz. The anomalous heating exhibited by the Hutchison Effect shows plainly that we have much to learn, especially where thermodynamics and electromagnetism meet. The spontaneous fracturing of metals, as occurs with the Hutchison Effect, is unique for two reasons: (1) there is no evidence of an "external force" causing the fracturing, and (2) the method by which the metal separates involves a sliding motion in a sideways direction, horizontally. The metal simply comes apart. Some temporary changes in the crystalline structure and physical properties of metals are somewhat reminiscent of the "spoon bending" of Uri Geller, except that there is no one near the metal samples when the changes take place. One video shows a spoon flapping up and down like a limp rag in a stiff breeze. In the case of permanent changes, a metal bar will be hard at one end, like steel, and soft at the other end, like powdered lead. Again, this is evidence of strong influence on Van der Waals forces. The radio wave interferences involved in producing these effects are produced from as many as four and five different radio sources, all operating at low power. However, the zone in which the interferences take place is stressed by hundreds of kilovolts. It is surmised by some researchers that what Hutchison has done is tap into the Zero Point Energy. This energy gets its name from the fact that it is evidenced by oscillations at zero degrees Kelvin, where supposedly all activity in an atom ceases. The energy is associated with the spontaneous emission and annihilation of electrons and positrons coming from what is called "the quantum vacuum." The density of the energy contained in the quantum vacuum is estimated by some at ten to the thirteenth Joules per cubic centimeter, which is reportedly sufficient to boil off the Earth's oceans in a matter of moments. Given access to such energies, it is small wonder that the Hutchison Effect produces such bizarre phenomena. At the present time, the phenomena are difficult to reproduce with any regularity. The focus for the future, then, is first to increase the frequency of occurence of the effects, then to achieve some degree of precision in their control. The work is continuing at this time. Before long, we shall see what progress can be made. Shreveport, Louisiana February 16, 1999 ============================================================== I nearly fell off my chair when I read the above. Would you believe it! - Clearly, Hutch has been generating B-a smoke rings. Talk about "He has put down the mighty from their seat, He has exhaulted the humble". Still perhaps had Hutch been more scientific about things he wouldn't have built the crazy lash-ups he did. Look at the clues and compare them with the known features of the generation and action of Alpha-atmosphere vortices. The Royal Institution smoke ring generator consists simply of a box with a flexible membrane at one end and a round hole at the other. The smoke ring is generated by striking the flexible membrane. This pushes smoke out of the hole and the forms a smoke ring which rolls over the bench towards the candle. Now clearly, the striking of the membrane is a longitudinal action. But in the second paragraph Solis writes:- ============================================ .....the Hutchison Effect is a collection of phenomena which were discovered accidentally by John Hutchison during attempts to study the longitudinal waves of Tesla back in 1979. ============================================ Note the words, "longitudinal waves". Hutch must have done the Beta-atmosphere equivalent of "striking the flexible membrane." - That takes care of the generation end. Now for the action end. Well, there is plenty to chose from but lets just pick the levitation of "a 60-pound cannon ball". If an Alpha-atmosphere vortex ring generated by a 747 can flip a small airliner, then, sure as God made little green apples a Tesla generated Beta-atmosphere vortex ring can flip a cannon ball - no sweat! As Shoulders pointed out in "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly"... ================================================= For the uninitiated to get a feel for the calculations involved with the Coulomb force, see the following website: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elefor.html The website does calculations for you using whatever numbers you put in, but in the simple example given, 1 ampere of current is allowed to flow for 1 second in two 100 watt lighting circuits yielding 1 Coulomb of like charge each separated by 1 meter of distance. The force calculated between these two charge sources is 1 million tons! The same force would be available using only 10 milliamperes of current flowing for 100 seconds. This could be done with a minuscule piece of apparatus operating out of a backpack, as the trap and attendant circuits are very small.... ================================================= ...the Beta-atmosphere involves enormous forces. It's funny really. The people who observed the Hutchison experiments were in the same unenviable position as the people who observed meteorites before the idea that chunks of iron could fall from the sky was acceptable. Since they were clearly men of integrity and could not be accused of lying, the Dr Porks of this world would have had to accuse them of being duped, and therefore, implicitly pretty stupid. Once one realises what was going on, it is clear, they were simply telling the unvarnished truth. Cheers, Frank Grimer [I'll have to see if I can google an account of that plane flipping incident] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 07:30:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7METUaJ012491; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:29:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7METTNH012480; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:29:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:29:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c5a726$20f5c260$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <2.2.32.20050822134333.009b25a8 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:31:03 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank Back in the 70's I used to fly Gliders (sailplanes) out of Gawler in South Australia under the flightpath of the Edinborough Airforce Base. It used to get quite exciting when one was at the 1900ft ceiling and the caribou's came through with supposedly a 2000 ft floor but felt more like a beat up. I think its a fairly long stretch though to compare what can happen when a vortice destroys the lift over one wing of an aircraft and flips it to suggesting the same can happen to a 60 lb round cannonball. Even the vortice off the tips of the small tow plane (usually a Piper Cub in those days) could give you a hard time when going from "low tow" below the tug to "High tow" above the tug if one was careless. I am not suggesting the effect is not real - but I would suggest caution in using this analogy. One suprising thing was how long the vortices lasted after they where generated - I have flown into them at least 10Km behind the generating aircraft. Regards JohnH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron > At 06:58 am 22/08/2005 +0100, Frank wrote: > > > > > >The first sentence of Shoulders "The Ugly" section reads, > > > > ===================================================== > > I think Hell has not a clue as to the fury of a bunch > > of electrons suddenly unleashed. > > ===================================================== > > > >Could an Alpha-atmosphere smoke ring (closed vortex) be seen > >as "furious"; more furious that is than simply blowing out a > >candle? > > > >Very definitely if the vortex is big enough. There have been > >instances where vortices shed by large airliners, such as > >the 747 have tipped over smaller airliners following in their > >wake. > > > >To be continued.... > > > >Frank Grimer > > > Having mentioned Hutchison previously in this thread I > thought I had better revisit his stuff though not with > any great enthusiasm since when I first investigated it > I was appalled by his hopelessly disorganised approach. > Fortunately, the first reference I came across was a > concise summary of the work - NOT written by Hutchison. 8-) > > ============================================================== > The Hutchison Effect -- An Explanation > by Mark A. Solis > > People often ask, "What exactly is the Hutchison Effect?" > This brief essay is an attempt to answer that question to the > satisfaction of the majority. > First of all, the Hutchison Effect is a collection of > phenomena which were discovered accidentally by John Hutchison > during attempts to study the longitudinal waves of Tesla back > in 1979. In other words, the Hutchison Effect is not simply a > singular effect. It is many. > The Hutchison Effect occurs as the result of radio wave > interferences in a zone of spatial volume encompassed by high > voltage sources, usually a Van de Graff generator, and two or > more Tesla coils. > The effects produced include levitation of heavy objects, > fusion of dissimilar materials such as metal and wood (exactly > as portrayed in the movie, "The Philadelphia Experiment"), the > anomalous heating of metals without burning adjacent material, > spontaneous fracturing of metals (which separate by sliding in > a sideways fashion), and both temporary and permanent changes > in the crystalline structure and physical properties of metals. > The levitation of heavy objects by the Hutchison Effect > is not---repeat not---the result of simple electrostatic or > electromagnetic levitation. Claims that these forces alone > can explain the phenomenon are patently ridiculous, and easily > disproved by merely trying to use such methods to duplicate > what the Hutchison Effect has achieved, which has been well > documented both on film and videotape, and has been witnessed > many times by numerous credentialed scientists and engineers. > Challengers should note that their apparatus must be limited > to the use of 75 Watts of power from a 120 Volt AC outlet, as > that is all that is used by Hutchison's apparatus to levitate > a 60-pound cannon ball. > The fusion of dissimilar materials, which is exceedingly > remarkable, indicates clearly that the Hutchison Effect has a > powerful influence on Van der Waals forces. In a striking and > baffling contradiction, dissimilar substances can simply "come > together," yet the individual substances do not dissociate. A > block of wood can simply "sink into" a metal bar, yet neither > the metal bar nor the block of wood come apart. Also, there > is no evidence of displacement, such as would occur if, for > example, one were to sink a stone into a bowl of water. > The anomalous heating of metal without any evidence of > burning or scorching of the adjacent materials (usually wood) > is a clear indication that possibly the nature of heat may not > be completely understood. This has far-reaching implications > for thermodynamics, which hinges entirely on the presumption > of such knowledge. It should be noted that the entirety of > thermodynamics is represented by the infrared portion of the > electromagnetic spectrum, which is insignificant in a context > of 0 Hz to infinite Hz. The anomalous heating exhibited by > the Hutchison Effect shows plainly that we have much to learn, > especially where thermodynamics and electromagnetism meet. > The spontaneous fracturing of metals, as occurs with the > Hutchison Effect, is unique for two reasons: (1) there is no > evidence of an "external force" causing the fracturing, and > (2) the method by which the metal separates involves a sliding > motion in a sideways direction, horizontally. The metal simply > comes apart. > Some temporary changes in the crystalline structure and > physical properties of metals are somewhat reminiscent of the > "spoon bending" of Uri Geller, except that there is no one near > the metal samples when the changes take place. One video shows > a spoon flapping up and down like a limp rag in a stiff breeze. > In the case of permanent changes, a metal bar will be hard at > one end, like steel, and soft at the other end, like powdered > lead. Again, this is evidence of strong influence on Van der > Waals forces. > The radio wave interferences involved in producing these > effects are produced from as many as four and five different > radio sources, all operating at low power. However, the zone > in which the interferences take place is stressed by hundreds > of kilovolts. > It is surmised by some researchers that what Hutchison > has done is tap into the Zero Point Energy. This energy gets > its name from the fact that it is evidenced by oscillations > at zero degrees Kelvin, where supposedly all activity in an > atom ceases. The energy is associated with the spontaneous > emission and annihilation of electrons and positrons coming > from what is called "the quantum vacuum." The density of the > energy contained in the quantum vacuum is estimated by some at > ten to the thirteenth Joules per cubic centimeter, which is > reportedly sufficient to boil off the Earth's oceans in a > matter of moments. > Given access to such energies, it is small wonder that > the Hutchison Effect produces such bizarre phenomena. At the > present time, the phenomena are difficult to reproduce with > any regularity. The focus for the future, then, is first to > increase the frequency of occurence of the effects, then to > achieve some degree of precision in their control. > The work is continuing at this time. Before long, we > shall see what progress can be made. > > Shreveport, Louisiana > February 16, 1999 > ============================================================== > > I nearly fell off my chair when I read the above. Would you > believe it! - Clearly, Hutch has been generating B-a smoke rings. > Talk about "He has put down the mighty from their seat, He has > exhaulted the humble". Still perhaps had Hutch been more scientific > about things he wouldn't have built the crazy lash-ups he did. > > Look at the clues and compare them with the known features of > the generation and action of Alpha-atmosphere vortices. > > The Royal Institution smoke ring generator consists simply of > a box with a flexible membrane at one end and a round hole at > the other. The smoke ring is generated by striking the flexible > membrane. This pushes smoke out of the hole and the forms a > smoke ring which rolls over the bench towards the candle. > > Now clearly, the striking of the membrane is a longitudinal > action. But in the second paragraph Solis writes:- > > ============================================ > .....the Hutchison Effect is a collection of > phenomena which were discovered accidentally > by John Hutchison during attempts to study > the longitudinal waves of Tesla back > in 1979. > ============================================ > > Note the words, "longitudinal waves". Hutch must have done > the Beta-atmosphere equivalent of "striking the flexible > membrane." - That takes care of the generation end. > > Now for the action end. > > Well, there is plenty to chose from but lets just pick the > levitation of "a 60-pound cannon ball". > > If an Alpha-atmosphere vortex ring generated by a 747 can flip > a small airliner, then, sure as God made little green apples > a Tesla generated Beta-atmosphere vortex ring can flip a cannon > ball - no sweat! > > As Shoulders pointed out in "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly"... > > ================================================= > For the uninitiated to get a feel for the > calculations involved with the Coulomb force, see > the following website: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elefor.html > > The website does calculations for you using > whatever numbers you put in, but in the simple > example given, 1 ampere of current is allowed > to flow for 1 second in two 100 watt lighting > circuits yielding 1 Coulomb of like charge each > separated by 1 meter of distance. The force > calculated between these two charge sources is > 1 million tons! The same force would be available > using only 10 milliamperes of current flowing > for 100 seconds. This could be done with a > minuscule piece of apparatus operating out of a > backpack, as the trap and attendant circuits > are very small.... > ================================================= > > ...the Beta-atmosphere involves enormous forces. > > > It's funny really. The people who observed the Hutchison experiments > were in the same unenviable position as the people who observed > meteorites before the idea that chunks of iron could fall from the > sky was acceptable. Since they were clearly men of integrity and > could not be accused of lying, the Dr Porks of this world would have > had to accuse them of being duped, and therefore, implicitly pretty > stupid. > > Once one realises what was going on, it is clear, they were simply > telling the unvarnished truth. > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer > > [I'll have to see if I can google an account of that plane flipping > incident] > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 07:51:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MEoj5e025996; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:51:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MEohmY025970; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:50:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:50:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822145026.009636d8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:50:26 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:49 am 22/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> I was interested to note that Shoulders co-authored a paper with >> Jack Sarfatti. >> >> Mmm.....A way out thinker if ever there was one, if my google search >> on him is anything to go by. > >He was normal until he got the phone call from Valis: > >http://www.disinfo.com/site/displayarticle2024.html > ================================================== CAUSALITY-VIOLATING QUANTUM ACTION AT A DISTANCE? by Dr. Jack Sarfatti ... the universe is created by intelligent design but the Designer lives in our far future and has evolved from us. ================================================= Yes - I see what you mean. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 08:41:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MFf12F013597; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:41:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MFexue013570; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:40:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:40:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050822154036.95281.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:40:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: OT: Alpha-Omega Atmosphere: was Beta-atmosphere.... To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050822145026.009636d8 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: G'day Frank and Terry, ========================================== CAUSALITY-VIOLATING QUANTUM ACTION AT A DISTANCE? by Dr. Jack Sarfatti ... the universe is created by intelligent design but the Designer lives in our far future and has evolved from us. ========================================== F.G. > Yes - I see what you mean. Frank, do you mean that you see the partial truth, or the ad hominem? I will do this half-observation one better... and you can "add" hominem me as twice the former... so to speak. One can substitute, in the above quotation, "in our distant past" for "in our far future"... and to the extent that one is possessed of a proper understanding of "time"... find that the two together constitute a hidden tautology, the truth of which must be self-evident, to even the "true-believer," at some timeless level of understanding.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 08:56:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MFtZlx020642; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:55:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MFtSxh020488; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:55:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:55:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822155503.009a1584 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:55:03 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:31:44 on 22 Aug 2005 07:31:44 John Harris wrote:- > Hi Frank, > Back in the 70's I used to fly Gliders (sailplanes) out of Gawler in South > Australia under the flightpath of the Edinborough Airforce Base. It used to > get quite exciting when one was at the 1900ft ceiling and the caribou's came > through with supposedly a 2000 ft floor but felt more like a beat up. > I think its a fairly long stretch though to compare what can happen when a > vortice destroys the lift over one wing of an aircraft and flips it to > suggesting the same can happen to a 60 lb round cannonball. > Even the vortice off the tips of the small tow plane (usually a Piper Cub in > those days) could give you a hard time when going from "low tow" below the > tug to "High tow" above the tug if one was careless. > I am not suggesting the effect is not real - but I would suggest caution in > using this analogy. > One sup rising thing was how long the vortices lasted after they where > generated - I have flown into them at least 10Km behind the generating > aircraft. > Regards > JohnH Many thanks for your most interesting first hand account, of the effect of vortex rings on small aircraft. There is nothing like hearing these things from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I only wish we had one of the Hutchison Effect witnesses on the list With regard to the cannon ball, I think you are extremely restrained in your comment that "it is a fairly long stretch". It is an enormously long stretch because the forces involved in the Beta-atmosphere (that which transmits light) are an enormously long way from the forces involved in the Alpha-atmosphere (that which transmits sound). Believe you me, I completely sympathise with your shock horror just as much as I would sympathise with a man who had never heard of meteorites and returned home to find that one had demolished his house. The cognitive dissonance must be awful. As for "caution", I am long past the age when I need to worry about the effect of my words on teachers/professors/division heads/directors/editors/peer reviewers. That, dear boy, is the beauty of our little Vortex discussion group. We can say it as it is. (excluding libel, pornography, sarcasm, religion and politics - and anything else our esteemed moderator might deem unfitting). Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 09:12:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MGBWdr028153; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:11:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MGBUQc028135; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:11:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:11:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822161113.009bbcd4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:11:13 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: Alpha-Omega Atmosphere: was Beta-atmosphere.... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:40 am 22/08/2005 -0700, you wrote: > G'day Frank and Terry, > > ========================================== > CAUSALITY-VIOLATING QUANTUM ACTION AT A DISTANCE? > by Dr. Jack Sarfatti > > ... the universe is created by intelligent design > > but the Designer lives in our far future and has > evolved from us. > ========================================== > > F.G. > Yes - I see what you mean. > > > Frank, do you mean that you see the partial truth, or > the ad hominem? > > I will do this half-observation one better... and you > can "add" hominem me as twice the former... so to > speak. > > One can substitute, in the above quotation, "in our > distant past" for "in our far future"... and to the > extent that one is possessed of a proper understanding > of "time"... find that the two together constitute a > hidden tautology, the truth of which must be > self-evident, to even the "true-believer," at some > timeless level of understanding.... > > Jones Goodness me - "ad hominem" indeed - you sound as though you must attend his soirees - or something. Sorry Josey - I'm not going to rise to the bait - though I must admit I'm tempted. Frank ================================= et ne inducas nos in temptationem ================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 09:46:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MGjouA013482; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:46:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MGjm9f013467; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:45:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:45:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Radus Boots and Magnetic Motors Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:44:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050822164451.COL3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I read about this on a post in JLNLabs' group. This is from Bearden's web site. Why won't this work? http://www.cheniere.org/misc/astroboots.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 09:50:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MGnSlU015267; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:49:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MGnRDR015244; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:49:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:49:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822164906.009b05c8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:49:06 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've found a rather spectacular example of a vortex crash. ============================================================ http://www.avweb.com/other/us427vue.html USAir 427: One Accident, Three Views On September 8, 1994, USAir Flight 427, a Boeing 737-300 on a scheduled flight from Chicago to Pittsburgh, crashed while maneuvering to land at Pittsburgh International Airport. The airplane was destroyed by impact forces and all 132 persons on board were fatally injured. Three years of investigation has failed to yield conclusive proof of why the aircraft crashed. What is known is that the aircraft encountered wake turbulence from a preceding aircraft while at 6,000 feet and 190 knots. The effects of the wake should have been easily recoverable. However, a few seconds after encountering the wake vortex, the 737's rudder deflected full-left and remained in that position for 23 seconds until the aircraft impacted the ground in a near-vertical position. ============================================================= I seem to remember there was a case where the plane flipped upside down but I haven't been able to find that one. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 10:08:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MH88wW023430; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:08:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MH88p8023417; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:08:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:08:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:55:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050822165514.HSN3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > I seem to remember there was a case where the plane flipped > upside down but I haven't been able to find that one. There was one in Chicago. But it wasn't a vortex - the engine fell off on one side. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 10:14:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MHEEWU028503; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:14:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MHECFn028469; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:14:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:14:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c5a73d$4f35d9a0$0201a8c0 default> From: "John Harris" To: References: <20050822165514.HSN3975.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:17:00 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Didn't used to have that problem in a sailplane ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 12:55 AM Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron > There was one in Chicago. But it wasn't a vortex - the engine fell off on one side. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 10:33:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MHWhWL008126; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:32:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MHWVHr007995; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:32:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:32:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002701c5a4f5$ca5c0c20$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> References: <002701c5a4f5$ca5c0c20$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:31:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Cold Electricity Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted; And Jeff replied; >Is this the same cold electricity Floyd Sweet was working with? > >Jeff > >> PES published the following article on E V Gray, > > http://pesn.com/2005/08/19/9600152_EV_Gray_nephew/ > > I'm sure that Linderman didn't miss mentioning Sparky Sweet. This is such a great story, I just wish that I had the resources to get to the bottom of it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 11:13:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MI8bEY025232; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:08:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MI8ZIS025208; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:08:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:08:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=BwCVh4FslBMSwDcO7eWI9DhYEWCKXoEF2VPzF935G4FpBFrCdXNyKXCoqrzH39r7nMzr3UgBooNuiRnd2GVtpNDp0WukMOEXaunqJAM93cvbXEIOHHCkfUTR05TspIKn8PeAbhY6ILFc6BVB/VQCF4+xnK+W26XVb3+egxM0cpM= ; Message-ID: <20050822180808.84671.qmail web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:08:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Beta-Aether as UFT To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, I've been giving some thought to your whole Beta-Atmosphere theory and reading your papers on the strength of materials, and I was shaken by the epiphany of a Unified Field Theory. Hal Puthoff, Alfonso Rueda, Bernard Haisch and others have demonstrated that inertia and gravity can both be explained by the effect of Zero-Point Fluctuations, with the gravity explanation requiring the warping of space by matter. Your explanation of the strength of materials as a result of the difference between B-A pressure internally and externally would seem to require the reduction of B-A pressure / density in the pressence of matter. Assuming that Beta-Atmosphere (Beta-Aether) and the ZPF are the same thing, allow me to synthesize the concepts together and expostulate upon the result. This reduction in B-A pressure would explain the apparent warping of space which results in gravity. Also, it would explain the apparent effect of gravity on light. I have never followed the theory that light could be directly effected by gravity, as it has no mass. However, the speed of a compression wave is inversly dependant upon the density of the medium through which it travels. Refraction of the light as it enters an area of progressivly reduced B-A density would bend it towards the "source", just as gravity would if it could effect light. Electro-Magnetism has also been linked to the ZPF (and thus B-A), and proposed as a means of harnessing its energy. The differing power laws related to the various manefestations of this effect could well be due to some form of hierarchal relationship in the B-A, At Casimir distances only certain types of ZPF fluctuations are allowed by the boundary conditions of scale. As the scale increases, you can get more and more types of ZPF fluctuations which result in different aspects of the B-A pressure. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 11:40:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MIeA0U006268; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:40:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MIe8Vv006244; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:40:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:40:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:39:49 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Israeli research into Cold Fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My mistake, I posted the wrong link. http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/213israel.html This article mentions the super wave method of producing fusion I didn't notice any links. Given it's alleged link to C F, I would expect Jed or Ed to have an interest in it. This link is one of four technologies mentioned on this page http://peswiki.com/energy/PowerPedia:Cold_fusion#Ongoing_developments From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 12:29:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MJSjRP025991; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:29:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MJSg2P025965; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:28:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:28:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Israeli research into Cold Fusion Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:28:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050822192821.GSLK1144.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: thomas malloy > Given it's alleged link to C F, I would > expect Jed or Ed to have an interest in it. The paper from ICCF10 is on Jed's web site: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIintensific.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 14:09:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7ML8mdo012286; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:09:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7ML8lA4012273; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:08:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:08:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050822210826.009bd5fc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:08:26 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-Aether as UFT Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:08 am 22/08/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: > Frank, I've been giving some thought to your whole > Beta-Atmosphere theory and reading your papers on > the strength of materials, and I was shaken by the > epiphany of a Unified Field Theory. > > Hal Puthoff, Alfonso Rueda, Bernard Haisch and others > have demonstrated that inertia and gravity can both be > explained by the effect of Zero-Point Fluctuations, > with the gravity explanation requiring the warping of > space by matter. > > Your explanation of the strength of materials as a > result of the difference between B-A pressure > internally and externally would seem to require the > reduction of B-A pressure / density in the pressence > of matter. Pressure yes - concentration yes - density no, since the particles of the B-a atmosphere have ambient mass and ambient charge, i.e. they do not manifest mass or charge anymore than bodies at ambient temperature manifest heat or cold. > Assuming that Beta-Atmosphere (Beta-Aether) and the > ZPF are the same thing, allow me to synthesize the > concepts together and expostulate upon the result. > > This reduction in B-A pressure would explain the > apparent warping of space which results in gravity. > Also, it would explain the apparent effect of gravity > on light. If you say so. 8-) > I have never followed the theory that light could be > directly effected by gravity, as it has no mass. > However, the speed of a compression wave is inversely > dependant upon the density of the medium through which > it travels. Refraction of the light as it enters an > area of progressively reduced B-A density would bend it > towards the "source", just as gravity would if it > could effect light. Seems logical. > Electro-Magnetism has also been linked to the ZPF (and > thus B-A), and proposed as a means of harnessing its > energy. Yep. >The differing power laws related to the various >manifestations of this effect could well be due to >some form of hierarchal relationship in the B-A, Bang on. 8-) >At Casimir distances only certain types of ZPF >fluctuations are allowed by the boundary conditions of >scale. As the scale increases, you can get more and >more types of ZPF fluctuations which result in >different aspects of the B-A pressure. You have clearly grasped the essentials of Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics. If you dwell on them I don't doubt you will come up with plenty of aspects I can't see. A radical datum shift such as recognising the internal tensile forces as nothing more than negations of external compressions will always cast a new light on things, thus enabling one to see stuff which could not be appreciated before. It's rather like being handed a negative photograph of a person who you can't recognise - then being handed the corresponding positive and realising that person is your mother. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 15:18:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MMHfFw011666; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:17:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MMHcXe011636; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:17:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:17:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:18:54 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Off topic but important Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I presume that everyone who reads Vortex values truth and reality. If this is true, I suggest you read what is written at the following link. The question raised by a mother who paid a dear price is being asked by people everywhere. How big a lie must the government tell before honest people object and before the government is replaced? Ed Storms http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082005X.sht From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 17:26:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7N0QAOA009658; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:26:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7N0Q89A009615; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:26:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:26:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <49jvlh$39590p mxip27a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,132,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="110273561:sNHT25178608" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: Subject: Re: Off topic but important Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:25:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Edmund Storms > > I presume that everyone who reads Vortex values truth and > reality. If this is true, I suggest you read what is > written at the following link. The question raised by a > mother who paid a dear price is being asked by > people everywhere. How big a lie must the government > tell before honest people object and before the > government is replaced? > > Ed Storms > > http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082005X.sht It would appear that the link has been changed to: http://www.truthout.org/cindy.shtml The above link takes you to a lengthy written account that appears to be updated daily from the woman who lost her son in Iraq who wants to meet with Bush (who is on vacation). ******************* The president says he feels compassion for me, but the best way to show that compassion is by meeting with me and the other mothers and families who are here. Our sons made the ultimate sacrifice and we want answers. All we're asking is that he sacrifice an hour out of his five-week vacation to talk to us, before the next mother loses her son in Iraq. -- Cindy Sheehan, Camp Casey, Crawford, Texas ******************* Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 15:36:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7MMa2gU018994; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:36:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7MMZsIN018883; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:35:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:35:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200508222235.j7MMZS3q018529 ultra5.eskimo.com> Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: RE: Off topic but important Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:35:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Thread-Index: AcWnZ2W40bYm+gPVRQyzjgkLfJrYqwAAiZgw In-Reply-To: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <_JHb8D.A.6mE.HNlCDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: Corrected Link ... http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082005X.shtml -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:19 PM To: Vortex Subject: Off topic but important I presume that everyone who reads Vortex values truth and reality. If this is true, I suggest you read what is written at the following link. The question raised by a mother who paid a dear price is being asked by people everywhere. How big a lie must the government tell before honest people object and before the government is replaced? Ed Storms http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082005X.sht -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: 8/19/2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 19:13:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7N2Cf4a026115; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:13:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7N2Cene026103; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:12:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:12:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FBlG0J6x6OvNiS0NFlc8GsiMe7r7X+ey5390h6HxK1DHOd2Oq964tdWhCG1KnwW5YY1AFRBQGB/7Z+gB1pyCZ1qntYlUyOnTKm2n9XtK/7NMgJHlitMyD0nmblplXncJ8XSklMGvNWThQVAU0og8iJ+1ckAm2wGkhEi1u6+g4+U= ; Message-ID: <20050823021219.13698.qmail web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Beta-Aether as UFT To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050822210826.009bd5fc pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Grimer wrote: > At 11:08 am 22/08/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: Snip > > Your explanation of the strength of materials as a > > result of the difference between B-A pressure > > internally and externally would seem to require > the > > reduction of B-A pressure / density in the > pressence > > of matter. > > > Pressure yes - concentration yes - density no, since snip > Cheers, > > Frank > > What I meant by density was (not mass... not matter exactly... um, I suppose 'stuff' isn't precise enough...) I guess field density as a measure of vacuum / Zero-Point fluctuations per unit volume, so 'concentration' of the Beta-Aether, as you said and I read right over, dang ADD. Cheers Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 22 23:30:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7N6TPLB001718; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:29:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7N6TN34001691; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:29:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:29:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050823062859.009a9e28 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:28:59 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-Aether as UFT Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:12 pm 22/08/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: >--- Grimer wrote: > >> At 11:08 am 22/08/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: >> > Your explanation of the strength of materials as a >> > result of the difference between B-A pressure >> > internally and externally would seem to require the >> > reduction of B-A pressure / density in the presence >> > of matter. >> >> >> Pressure yes - concentration yes - density no, since... >> Cheers, >> >> Frank >> >> > What I meant by density was (not mass... not matter > exactly... um, I suppose 'stuff' isn't precise > enough...) I guess field density as a measure of > vacuum / Zero-Point fluctuations per unit volume, so > 'concentration' of the Beta-Aether, as you said and I > read right over, dang ADD. > > Cheers > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist Fine. We will settle for concentration then. In your case concentration of the Cheshire Cat's grin (concentration of the Zero-Point fluctuations per unit volume). In my case concentration of the Cheshire Cat's grin along with the Cheshire Cat (concentration of the Zero-Point fluctuations per unit volume along with the particle wot is doing the fluctuatin'). 8-) Cheers, Alice ====================================================== "I wish you wouldn’t keep fluctuating so rapidly; you you make one quite giddy!" said Alice "All right," said the Cat; and this time it fluctuated quite slowly, beginning with the end of the tail, and ending with the grin, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone. "Well! I’ve often seen a cat without a grin," thought Alice; "but a grin without a cat! It’s the most curious thing I ever saw in all my life!" ===================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 01:07:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7N87HLm000705; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:07:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7N87F47000688; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:07:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:07:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:06:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: OFF topic but important Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <_wnRlB.A.sK.yktCDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following paragraphs were sent to me by Grassfire.org . They do a good job of setting out the other side of the argument. It is now clear that MoveOn.org and radical peace groups are using Cindy Sheehan and Crawford, Texas, as their staging area for a nationwide anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-troops movement. Let's be clear -- these groups are using Mrs. Sheehan to push their radical agenda, undermine our President and ultimately weaken the war effort and put our troops at risk. IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss this matter. The administration is politically unable to cut and run, even if they wanted to, and they don't. Then there is the other email I received which talked about how there hasn't been a terrorist attack on America since 9/11. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. We're speaking to them in the language that they understand, force. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 01:54:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7N8rYqv016058; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:53:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7N8rWuY016026; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:53:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:53:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430AE3F4.8040602 sumosound.de> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:53:08 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Beta-Aether as Quantum Tunnelling References: <2.2.32.20050823062859.009a9e28 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050823062859.009a9e28 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Frank, Considering that a magnetron is cavitating electrons to produce radio waves, and that destruction of steel due to stress is also a cavitation phenomena according to your theory, could it also be that cavitation is occurring in the layers of silicon wafers in transistors? One layer cavitates electrons the way a magnetron does, another receives the microwaves, and converts it back into electrons. Considering the dopants most commonly used, it seems like a possibility. Have you thought about this? Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 07:37:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NEb53k022579; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:37:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NEb0xB022513; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:37:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:37:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050823143639.009a0b10 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:36:39 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-Aether as Quantum Tunnelling Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:53 am 23/08/2005 +0200, Knuke wrote: > Moin Frank, > > Considering that a magnetron is cavitating electrons to produce radio > waves, and that destruction of steel due to stress is also a cavitation > phenomena according to your theory, could it also be that cavitation is > occurring in the layers of silicon wafers in transistors? One layer > cavitates electrons the way a magnetron does, another receives the > microwaves, and converts it back into electrons. Considering the > dopants most commonly used, it seems like a possibility. Have you > thought about this? > > Knuke You would know far more about that than I would. 8-) That said, it is clear that once one can get to grips with the simple hierarchical pattern - and once one make the huge Gestalt switch involve in seeing materials held together from the outside and not from the inside - then all sorts of weird things are going to come out of the woodwork - like the power laws of the three different states of water vapour for example. [see http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html ] One has effectively opened up a new continent as far as ways of looking at things are concerned and there are lines of exploration available for all. As far as the cavitation of steel is concerned - it is only certain types of steel which show this. If the cavitation was above ambient B-a pressure it would be destroying the steel However it is below (thousands of psi below) so it is actually holding the steel together. I suppose one could say it is the ambient B-a which is destroying the steel though it would be more precise to say that it is the difference between the ambient and the internal which is destroying the steel, the effective transverse compression on the bar. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 09:08:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NG7gR6031414; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:07:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NG7eaf031399; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:07:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:07:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430B49B8.9000504 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:07:20 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic but important References: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I value the truth but I also know that if we pull out now about 5 million people will die in the bloodiest civil war in middle east history. It would quickly involve Syria, Iran, Jordan and might spill over into turkey and Saudi Arabia. We needed to take out Saddam regardless of his success or failures in making weapons of mass destruction. Justice not fear should have led us to act ages ago. War is an imperfect tool and a dangerous one but some times no other option remains. If we want a better tool than War then we must work harder to find such tools. I think the World Federalists might have a clue but in the final analysis if any population like the "Sunni Triangle" decide it can't handle its neighbours having a fare share or objects to having to work for a living; if any one decides he has the dieing need to kill to force his beliefs on others then, yes, war is all they can expect in any world any one can imagine. Name one real or fictional society that has faced such terrorism and not had to step in Armed? I advocate freedom of speech and advocate arming police and armies with non-lethal weapons. But I've also found myself marvelling at Israel's patience; it would take only 2 dozen Moab type bombs to end the Palestine problem in a day, yet Israel holds its fire in the noblest of ways. I'm not advocating the Moab’s I am only noting that they would be technically possible. Peace and prosperity are not accidents they have at their heart a Justice and mercy unique to our western and/, yes like it or not/,our Christian history. Edmund Storms wrote: > I presume that everyone who reads Vortex values truth and reality. If > this is true, I suggest you read what is written at the following > link. The question raised by a mother who paid a dear price is being > asked by people everywhere. How big a lie must the government tell > before honest people object and before the government is replaced? > > Ed Storms > > http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082005X.sht > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 09:18:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NGI42E003565; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:18:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NGI2bc003533; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:18:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:18:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430B4C89.8070607 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:19:21 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF topic but important References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Tom, I don't want to get into a pointless and fruitless debate. However, our country is in serious trouble, not just because of the Iraq war. Unless voters look beyond the propaganda used by the government and accept some basic principles based on truth, we all are going to pay a very high price. You might reject this warning as personal ravings of a liberal or of the uninformed. Nevertheless, I strongly suggest you read "The Demise of the Dollar" by Addison Wiggin to understand the financial issues. You only need to follow the Iraq war on TV to know enough about that sorry issue to be very concerned. These are only two of the many issues you need to understand before you can properly evaluate our leaders and know where they are taking us all, both conservatives and liberals. Everyone wants to trust our president and the government. Everyone wants to believe that we as a nation are doing the right thing. Many people want to believe that our affluence will continue and be a testament to our Christian beliefs. However, what happens when the leadership leads us away from these goals and lies about their actions? What happens when the goals of the leadership are different from the goals of ordinary people? When this happens in a democracy, the leaders are voted out of office or are impeached. Unfortunately, most people do not know what is happening because they are blinded by such arguments as you use below. Consider the facts. The reasons Bush used to attack Iraq have been shown to be wrong - no WMD, no relationship to 9/11, no terrorists in Iraq, and no nuclear weapons program. After he attacked, the results were not what he expected - no friendly welcome, no extra oil for our use, and no increased stability in the region. Because of his ignorance, insufficient troops were sent in spite of warnings by the generals. As a result, the country is on the brink of civil war, thousands of our troops have been killed or injured, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, the infrastructure of the country has collapsed, and the area has become a training ground for more terrorists. I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept? How much support do you want to give a government that shows an inability to deal with reality on a grand scale? How high a price are you willing to pay to achieve the goals the government is pursuing? Are you willing to have your loved ones die? Are you willing to have your kids educated in poorer schools or have no medical care because the money is used to blowup Iraq? The government says that if we don't do this, we will experience even worse in the future. What if they are wrong? We were given the same kind of arguments about why we could not withdraw from Vietnam - if we did all of Southeast Asia would become communist, the so called domino effect. This did not happen. We were told that objecting to the war was giving comfort to the enemy and putting our troops at risk. We were kicked out not because the antiwar people gave comfort but because our leaders underestimated the strength and determination of the North Vietnamese. Over 50,000 of our youth died because our leaders were wrong that time. How many are you willing to die to prove how wrong they are this time? How many lies must be told before you withdraw your trust? I suggest you answer these questions because your future will depend on your answers. Regards, Ed thomas malloy wrote: > The following paragraphs were sent to me by Grassfire.org . They do a > good job of setting out the other side of the argument. > > It is now clear that MoveOn.org and radical peace groups are > using Cindy Sheehan and Crawford, Texas, as their staging > area for a nationwide anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-troops > movement. > > Let's be clear -- these groups are using Mrs. Sheehan to > push their radical agenda, undermine our President and > ultimately weaken the war effort and put our troops at > risk. > > IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss this matter. The administration > is politically unable to cut and run, even if they wanted to, and they > don't. > > Then there is the other email I received which talked about how there > hasn't been a terrorist attack on America since 9/11. Is this a > coincidence? I don't think so. We're speaking to them in the language > that they understand, force. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 09:37:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NGb8cJ013237; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:37:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NGb7cT013205; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:37:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:37:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Nanotube Sheets Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:36:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050823163643.JAQ9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/uota-utd081505.php "RICHARDSON, Texas (Aug. 18, 2005) - University of Texas at Dallas (UTD) nanotechnologists and an Australian colleague have produced transparent carbon nanotube sheets that are stronger than the same-weight steel sheets and have demonstrated applicability for organic light-emitting displays, low-noise electronic sensors, artificial muscles, conducting appliqués and broad-band polarized light sources that can be switched in one ten-thousandths of a second. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 09:46:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NGjtSm016780; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:46:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NGjrbs016759; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:45:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:45:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [Humor] Intelligent Falling Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:45:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050823164532.PNQ9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133&n=2 "TOPEKA, KS—As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling. "Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University." ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 10:05:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NH59wi026341; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:05:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NH57uY026324; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:05:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:05:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jPG52aEnok89Ro1oW64Q/P2Xb3bwjslp6lrC2ICY8IgwYce1DuV7T+D4HvyYYpv44W9hlbKbRiYL3EFbWfPzppwvV+FXKpffQUbNmqbv+vNuoO8470jaH8MOx0v5hjgDP4trrVUpPK5Ty/neRWKnP82ijnAocvH9uwhq6HwglYE= ; Message-ID: <20050823170445.44431.qmail web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:04:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Beta-Aether as UFT To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050823062859.009a9e28 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <8vEB_B.A.QbG.Dd1CDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm trying to avoid tying myself to the concept of particles fluctuating in the vacuum (although I realize that is the best explanation to date) Perhaps we should call it Beta-Atmospheric Flux Concentration. --- Grimer wrote: > At 07:12 pm 22/08/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: > > > >--- Grimer > wrote: > > > >> At 11:08 am 22/08/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote: > > > > >> > Your explanation of the strength of materials > as a > >> > result of the difference between B-A pressure > >> > internally and externally would seem to require > the > >> > reduction of B-A pressure / density in the > presence > >> > of matter. > >> > >> > >> Pressure yes - concentration yes - density no, > since... > > > > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Frank > >> > >> > > > > What I meant by density was (not mass... not > matter > > exactly... um, I suppose 'stuff' isn't precise > > enough...) I guess field density as a measure of > > vacuum / Zero-Point fluctuations per unit volume, > so > > 'concentration' of the Beta-Aether, as you said > and I > > read right over, dang ADD. > > > > Cheers > > > > Merlyn > > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > > > Fine. We will settle for concentration then. > > In your case concentration of the Cheshire Cat's > grin > (concentration of the Zero-Point fluctuations per > unit > volume). > > In my case concentration of the Cheshire Cat's grin > along with the Cheshire Cat (concentration of the > Zero-Point fluctuations per unit volume along with > the particle wot is doing the fluctuatin'). 8-) > > Cheers, > > Alice > > > ====================================================== > "I wish you wouldn’t keep fluctuating so > rapidly; you > you make one quite giddy!" said Alice > > "All right," said the Cat; and this time it > fluctuated > quite slowly, beginning with the end of the > tail, > and ending with the grin, which remained some > time > after the rest of it had gone. > > "Well! I’ve often seen a cat without a grin," > thought Alice; "but a grin without a cat! It’s > the > most curious thing I ever saw in all my life!" > > ===================================================== > > > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 10:50:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NHnjsQ011095; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:50:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NHngJR011067; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:49:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:49:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430B6207.6010405 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:51:03 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic but important References: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> <430B49B8.9000504@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <430B49B8.9000504 iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > I value the truth but I also know that if we pull out now about 5 > million people will die in the bloodiest civil war in middle east > history. It would quickly involve Syria, Iran, Jordan and might spill > over into turkey and Saudi Arabia. We needed to take out Saddam > regardless of his success or failures in making weapons of mass > destruction. Justice not fear should have led us to act ages ago. War is > an imperfect tool and a dangerous one but some times no other option > remains. OK, I'll bite, how do you know that the civil war, which I agree will happen, will have this effect? Consider these possibilities. We eventually have to pull out, if for no other reason than we run out of volunteer troops. No informed person believes that all of the internal problems will be resolved by that time. Hatreds built up over generations will remain, the infrastructure will still be a mess, and unemployment will be high. In other words, the people will still be pissed off with each other and with us. Yes, there will be a bloodbath within the country, which I might add, will be our fault. What we have done will be resented by people in that area for generations. However, why would Syria, Iran or the other countries get involved except in a minor way, such as giving aid to one side or the other. These countries have no self interest in getting bombed by the US. A general war would have to be fought without aircraft, because the US can shoot down anything in the air. On the other hand, the longer we stay, the more of our people die, the more we spend, the more terrorists are trained, and the greater will be their wish to get even. As for Saddam, we supported him for many years and gave him the tools to control and kill his own people. Only when he threatened "our" oil did we decide he was "bad". Were do you find justice in our history there? > If we want a better tool than War then we must work harder to find such > tools. I think the World Federalists > might have a clue but in the > final analysis if any population like the "Sunni Triangle" decide it > can't handle its neighbours having a fare share or objects to having to > work for a living; if any one decides he has the dieing need to kill to > force his beliefs on others then, yes, war is all they can expect in any > world any one can imagine. Name one real or fictional society that has > faced such terrorism and not had to step in Armed? Such terrorism has been practiced throughout history, and especially in Europe. Only when it happened here did we attack a country that had nothing to do with the event. The issue is not responding to terrorism, but how this can best be done. Bush has chosen the worst possible approach, but one that gets support from the uninformed. Regards, Ed > I advocate freedom of speech and advocate arming police and armies with > non-lethal weapons. But I've also found myself marvelling at Israel's > patience; it would take only 2 dozen Moab type bombs to end the > Palestine problem in a day, yet Israel holds its fire in the noblest of > ways. I'm not advocating the Moab’s I am only noting that they would be > technically possible. Peace and prosperity are not accidents they have > at their heart a Justice and mercy unique to our western and/, yes like > it or not/,our Christian history. > > > > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> I presume that everyone who reads Vortex values truth and reality. If >> this is true, I suggest you read what is written at the following >> link. The question raised by a mother who paid a dear price is being >> asked by people everywhere. How big a lie must the government tell >> before honest people object and before the government is replaced? >> >> Ed Storms >> >> http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082005X.sht >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 12:33:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NJWiop026268; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:33:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NJWfK3026230; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:32:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:32:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001601c5a819$5bb478d0$9f027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <430B4C89.8070607@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: OFF topic but important Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:32:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Politics is another name for a war without guns. Politicians that mistake the realities of each wind up getting a lot of good boys killed while demoralizing the fighting men of the nation. Some nations are warrior nations, some nations have a warrior race among the citizens. The nation that loses its stomach for war ceases to be a nation in short order. Read the first chapter of the book of Judges for the reason why. There are a few simple rules to war. Weakness will get you killed.. Never pull a gun on somebody you don't intend to kill. Have a warrior leading your military and not a politician. Ask Abraham Lincoln why, .If you don't have the stomach to put a Sherman in charge, surrender and live as a slave. "Blessed is the nation who's princes are the son's of noblemen. I have seen noblemen walking and serfs riding horses". Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: Re: OFF topic but important > Dear Tom, > > I don't want to get into a pointless and fruitless debate. However, our > country is in serious trouble, not just because of the Iraq war. Unless > voters look beyond the propaganda used by the government and accept some > basic principles based on truth, we all are going to pay a very high > price. You might reject this warning as personal ravings of a liberal or > of the uninformed. Nevertheless, I strongly suggest you read "The Demise > of the Dollar" by Addison Wiggin to understand the financial issues. You > only need to follow the Iraq war on TV to know enough about that sorry > issue to be very concerned. These are only two of the many issues you need > to understand before you can properly evaluate our leaders and know where > they are taking us all, both conservatives and liberals. > > Everyone wants to trust our president and the government. Everyone wants > to believe that we as a nation are doing the right thing. Many people > want to believe that our affluence will continue and be a testament to our > Christian beliefs. However, what happens when the leadership leads us away > from these goals and lies about their actions? What happens when the goals > of the leadership are different from the goals of ordinary people? When > this happens in a democracy, the leaders are voted out of office or are > impeached. Unfortunately, most people do not know what is happening > because they are blinded by such arguments as you use below. > > Consider the facts. > > The reasons Bush used to attack Iraq have been shown to be wrong - no WMD, > no relationship to 9/11, no terrorists in Iraq, and no nuclear weapons > program. After he attacked, the results were not what he expected - no > friendly welcome, no extra oil for our use, and no increased stability in > the region. Because of his ignorance, insufficient troops were sent in > spite of warnings by the generals. As a result, the country is on the > brink of civil war, thousands of our troops have been killed or injured, > hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, the infrastructure of > the country has collapsed, and the area has become a training ground for > more terrorists. > > I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept? How much > support do you want to give a government that shows an inability to deal > with reality on a grand scale? How high a price are you willing to pay to > achieve the goals the government is pursuing? Are you willing to have > your loved ones die? Are you willing to have your kids educated in poorer > schools or have no medical care because the money is used to blowup Iraq? > The government says that if we don't do this, we will experience even > worse in the future. What if they are wrong? We were given the same kind > of arguments about why we could not withdraw from Vietnam - if we did all > of Southeast Asia would become communist, the so called domino effect. > This did not happen. We were told that objecting to the war was giving > comfort to the enemy and putting our troops at risk. We were kicked out > not because the antiwar people gave comfort but because our leaders > underestimated the strength and determination of the North Vietnamese. > Over 50,000 of our youth died because our leaders were wrong that time. > How many are you willing to die to prove how wrong they are this time? How > many lies must be told before you withdraw your trust? I suggest you > answer these questions because your future will depend on your answers. > > Regards, > Ed > > > > > thomas malloy wrote: >> The following paragraphs were sent to me by Grassfire.org . They do a >> good job of setting out the other side of the argument. >> >> It is now clear that MoveOn.org and radical peace groups are >> using Cindy Sheehan and Crawford, Texas, as their staging >> area for a nationwide anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-troops >> movement. >> >> Let's be clear -- these groups are using Mrs. Sheehan to >> push their radical agenda, undermine our President and >> ultimately weaken the war effort and put our troops at >> risk. >> >> IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss this matter. The administration is >> politically unable to cut and run, even if they wanted to, and they >> don't. >> >> Then there is the other email I received which talked about how there >> hasn't been a terrorist attack on America since 9/11. Is this a >> coincidence? I don't think so. We're speaking to them in the language >> that they understand, force. >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 12:48:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NJkB2M000633; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:46:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NJjrEl000420; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:45:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:45:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430B7D2F.2030803 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:46:55 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF topic but important References: <430B4C89.8070607@ix.netcom.com> <001601c5a819$5bb478d0$9f027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001601c5a819$5bb478d0$9f027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wish I understood your point, Richard. The issue is not whether a war is necessary or desirable, but which war should be fought. Fighting the wrong war does not get you anywhere, as Hitler discovered when he invaded Russia. Also, fighting the right war in the wrong way gets you nowhere, as Johnson discovered in Vietnam. The question is, are we fighting the right war in the right way. Events show that we are not. So now what do we do? Regards, Ed RC Macaulay wrote: > Politics is another name for a war without guns. Politicians that > mistake the realities of each wind up getting a lot of good boys killed > while demoralizing the fighting men of the nation. Some nations are > warrior nations, some nations have a warrior race among the citizens. > The nation that loses its stomach for war ceases to be a nation in short > order. Read the first chapter of the book of Judges for the reason why. > There are a few simple rules to war. Weakness will get you killed.. > Never pull a gun on somebody you don't intend to kill. Have a warrior > leading your military and not a politician. Ask Abraham Lincoln why, > .If you don't have the stomach to put a Sherman in charge, surrender and > live as a slave. > "Blessed is the nation who's princes are the son's of noblemen. I have > seen noblemen walking and serfs riding horses". > Richard > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:19 AM > Subject: Re: OFF topic but important > > >> Dear Tom, >> >> I don't want to get into a pointless and fruitless debate. However, >> our country is in serious trouble, not just because of the Iraq war. >> Unless voters look beyond the propaganda used by the government and >> accept some basic principles based on truth, we all are going to pay a >> very high price. You might reject this warning as personal ravings of >> a liberal or of the uninformed. Nevertheless, I strongly suggest you >> read "The Demise of the Dollar" by Addison Wiggin to understand the >> financial issues. You only need to follow the Iraq war on TV to know >> enough about that sorry issue to be very concerned. These are only two >> of the many issues you need to understand before you can properly >> evaluate our leaders and know where they are taking us all, both >> conservatives and liberals. >> >> Everyone wants to trust our president and the government. Everyone >> wants to believe that we as a nation are doing the right thing. Many >> people want to believe that our affluence will continue and be a >> testament to our Christian beliefs. However, what happens when the >> leadership leads us away from these goals and lies about their >> actions? What happens when the goals of the leadership are different >> from the goals of ordinary people? When this happens in a democracy, >> the leaders are voted out of office or are impeached. Unfortunately, >> most people do not know what is happening because they are blinded by >> such arguments as you use below. >> >> Consider the facts. >> >> The reasons Bush used to attack Iraq have been shown to be wrong - no >> WMD, no relationship to 9/11, no terrorists in Iraq, and no nuclear >> weapons program. After he attacked, the results were not what he >> expected - no friendly welcome, no extra oil for our use, and no >> increased stability in the region. Because of his ignorance, >> insufficient troops were sent in spite of warnings by the generals. >> As a result, the country is on the brink of civil war, thousands of >> our troops have been killed or injured, hundreds of thousands of >> Iraqis have been killed, the infrastructure of the country has >> collapsed, and the area has become a training ground for more terrorists. >> >> I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept? How much >> support do you want to give a government that shows an inability to >> deal with reality on a grand scale? How high a price are you willing >> to pay to achieve the goals the government is pursuing? Are you >> willing to have your loved ones die? Are you willing to have your kids >> educated in poorer schools or have no medical care because the money >> is used to blowup Iraq? The government says that if we don't do this, >> we will experience even worse in the future. What if they are wrong? >> We were given the same kind of arguments about why we could not >> withdraw from Vietnam - if we did all of Southeast Asia would become >> communist, the so called domino effect. This did not happen. We were >> told that objecting to the war was giving comfort to the enemy and >> putting our troops at risk. We were kicked out not because the antiwar >> people gave comfort but because our leaders underestimated the >> strength and determination of the North Vietnamese. Over 50,000 of our >> youth died because our leaders were wrong that time. How many are you >> willing to die to prove how wrong they are this time? How many lies >> must be told before you withdraw your trust? I suggest you answer >> these questions because your future will depend on your answers. >> >> Regards, >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >>> The following paragraphs were sent to me by Grassfire.org . They do a >>> good job of setting out the other side of the argument. >>> >>> It is now clear that MoveOn.org and radical peace groups are >>> using Cindy Sheehan and Crawford, Texas, as their staging >>> area for a nationwide anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-troops >>> movement. >>> >>> Let's be clear -- these groups are using Mrs. Sheehan to >>> push their radical agenda, undermine our President and >>> ultimately weaken the war effort and put our troops at >>> risk. >>> >>> IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss this matter. The >>> administration is politically unable to cut and run, even if they >>> wanted to, and they don't. >>> >>> Then there is the other email I received which talked about how there >>> hasn't been a terrorist attack on America since 9/11. Is this a >>> coincidence? I don't think so. We're speaking to them in the language >>> that they understand, force. >>> >>> >> >> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 12:52:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NJq2jw003420; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:52:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NJpuhA003291; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:51:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:51:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c5a81c$075a3470$9f027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Flywheel magic Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:51:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5A7F2.1D835E40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5A7F2.1D835E40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5A7F2.1D835E40" ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5A7F2.1D835E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankReading the series of posts that began with the secret of = sonoluminescense and continuing with the base thought made me revisit = thoughts about flywheels. The physics properties ( or anomolies thereof) of vortex phenomena may = have application to an ordinary flywheel. A flywheel is an candidate for = storage of energy and ideal for releasing " bursts" of energy like = Grimer describes in his thoughts regarding Beta Atmosphere and the = cavity magnetron. Come to think of it , the cavity magnetron exhibits = some remarkably similar characteristics to a flywheel.. hmmm !!. The = question raised as to how the internal pressure of a cavity magnetron = could be so high may be answered by considering the centripetal forces = at the center of the flywheel. We are NOT measuring mass per se, neither = are we measuring pressures absolute.(PSIA). Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5A7F2.1D835E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Reading the series of posts that began with the secret of = sonoluminescense=20 and continuing with the base thought made me revisit thoughts about=20 flywheels.
 
The physics properties ( or anomolies thereof) of vortex phenomena = may have=20 application to an ordinary flywheel. A flywheel is an candidate for = storage of=20 energy and ideal for  releasing " bursts" of energy like Grimer = describes=20 in his thoughts regarding Beta Atmosphere and the cavity magnetron. Come = to=20 think of it , the cavity magnetron exhibits some remarkably similar=20 characteristics to a flywheel.. hmmm !!. The question  raised as to = how the=20 internal pressure of a cavity magnetron could be so high may be answered = by=20 considering the centripetal forces at the center of the flywheel. We are = NOT=20 measuring mass per se, neither are we measuring pressures = absolute.(PSIA).
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5A7F2.1D835E40-- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5A7F2.1D835E40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001e01c5a81c$064a2400$9f027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5A7F2.1D835E40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 13:02:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NK1Yso008009; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:01:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NK1UDQ007975; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:01:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:01:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000a01c5a81d$60291430$9f027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <430B4C89.8070607@ix.netcom.com> <001601c5a819$5bb478d0$9f027841@xptower> <430B7D2F.2030803@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: OFF topic but important Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:00:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, Mistakes create atmospheres for "mexican standoffs" where everybody in the cantina has a shotgun or machete. Common sense dictates quietly leave by the side door , when safely outside simply shoot the fool that pulled the gun. Or ,in this case, run him out of office.The world is much to dangerous to allow guns in the hands of children. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 2:46 PM Subject: Re: OFF topic but important >I wish I understood your point, Richard. The issue is not whether a war is >necessary or desirable, but which war should be fought. Fighting the wrong >war does not get you anywhere, as Hitler discovered when he invaded Russia. >Also, fighting the right war in the wrong way gets you nowhere, as Johnson >discovered in Vietnam. The question is, are we fighting the right war in >the right way. Events show that we are not. So now what do we do? > > Regards, > Ed > > RC Macaulay wrote: > >> Politics is another name for a war without guns. Politicians that mistake >> the realities of each wind up getting a lot of good boys killed while >> demoralizing the fighting men of the nation. Some nations are warrior >> nations, some nations have a warrior race among the citizens. The nation >> that loses its stomach for war ceases to be a nation in short order. Read >> the first chapter of the book of Judges for the reason why. >> There are a few simple rules to war. Weakness will get you killed.. Never >> pull a gun on somebody you don't intend to kill. Have a warrior leading >> your military and not a politician. Ask Abraham Lincoln why, .If you >> don't have the stomach to put a Sherman in charge, surrender and live as >> a slave. >> "Blessed is the nation who's princes are the son's of noblemen. I have >> seen noblemen walking and serfs riding horses". >> Richard >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" >> >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:19 AM >> Subject: Re: OFF topic but important >> >> >>> Dear Tom, >>> >>> I don't want to get into a pointless and fruitless debate. However, our >>> country is in serious trouble, not just because of the Iraq war. Unless >>> voters look beyond the propaganda used by the government and accept some >>> basic principles based on truth, we all are going to pay a very high >>> price. You might reject this warning as personal ravings of a liberal >>> or of the uninformed. Nevertheless, I strongly suggest you read "The >>> Demise of the Dollar" by Addison Wiggin to understand the financial >>> issues. You only need to follow the Iraq war on TV to know enough about >>> that sorry issue to be very concerned. These are only two of the many >>> issues you need to understand before you can properly evaluate our >>> leaders and know where they are taking us all, both conservatives and >>> liberals. >>> >>> Everyone wants to trust our president and the government. Everyone >>> wants to believe that we as a nation are doing the right thing. Many >>> people want to believe that our affluence will continue and be a >>> testament to our Christian beliefs. However, what happens when the >>> leadership leads us away from these goals and lies about their actions? >>> What happens when the goals of the leadership are different from the >>> goals of ordinary people? When this happens in a democracy, the leaders >>> are voted out of office or are impeached. Unfortunately, most people do >>> not know what is happening because they are blinded by such arguments as >>> you use below. >>> >>> Consider the facts. >>> >>> The reasons Bush used to attack Iraq have been shown to be wrong - no >>> WMD, no relationship to 9/11, no terrorists in Iraq, and no nuclear >>> weapons program. After he attacked, the results were not what he >>> expected - no friendly welcome, no extra oil for our use, and no >>> increased stability in the region. Because of his ignorance, >>> insufficient troops were sent in spite of warnings by the generals. As >>> a result, the country is on the brink of civil war, thousands of our >>> troops have been killed or injured, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have >>> been killed, the infrastructure of the country has collapsed, and the >>> area has become a training ground for more terrorists. >>> >>> I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept? How much >>> support do you want to give a government that shows an inability to deal >>> with reality on a grand scale? How high a price are you willing to pay >>> to achieve the goals the government is pursuing? Are you willing to >>> have your loved ones die? Are you willing to have your kids educated in >>> poorer schools or have no medical care because the money is used to >>> blowup Iraq? The government says that if we don't do this, we will >>> experience even worse in the future. What if they are wrong? We were >>> given the same kind of arguments about why we could not withdraw from >>> Vietnam - if we did all of Southeast Asia would become communist, the so >>> called domino effect. This did not happen. We were told that objecting >>> to the war was giving comfort to the enemy and putting our troops at >>> risk. We were kicked out not because the antiwar people gave comfort but >>> because our leaders underestimated the strength and determination of the >>> North Vietnamese. Over 50,000 of our youth died because our leaders were >>> wrong that time. How many are you willing to die to prove how wrong they >>> are this time? How many lies must be told before you withdraw your >>> trust? I suggest you answer these questions because your future will >>> depend on your answers. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> thomas malloy wrote: >>> >>>> The following paragraphs were sent to me by Grassfire.org . They do a >>>> good job of setting out the other side of the argument. >>>> >>>> It is now clear that MoveOn.org and radical peace groups are >>>> using Cindy Sheehan and Crawford, Texas, as their staging >>>> area for a nationwide anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-troops >>>> movement. >>>> >>>> Let's be clear -- these groups are using Mrs. Sheehan to >>>> push their radical agenda, undermine our President and >>>> ultimately weaken the war effort and put our troops at >>>> risk. >>>> >>>> IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss this matter. The administration >>>> is politically unable to cut and run, even if they wanted to, and they >>>> don't. >>>> >>>> Then there is the other email I received which talked about how there >>>> hasn't been a terrorist attack on America since 9/11. Is this a >>>> coincidence? I don't think so. We're speaking to them in the language >>>> that they understand, force. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 14:13:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NLD9rA002972; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:13:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NLD85U002945; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:13:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:13:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050823211243.0096c23c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:12:43 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, Vorts, I have been revisiting the Hutchinson Effect and have been very chuffed over what I have found. The phenomena described below - the "lift" - the "lateral" propulsion - " twisting spiral movement" the "looping arc" are all exactly the motions one might expect from objects hit by a Beta-atmosphere vortex ring. And the fact that they are so obviously consistent is evidence the phenomena are real. If Hutchison had be faking the results he would not have been so stupid as to fake such a weird collection since he obviously hasn't got a clue as to the cause. In fact, if I had wanted to fake experimental results to demonstrate the generation of Beta- atmosphere Vortex ring, I couldn't have done better than organise the results Hutchison actually obtained. ================================================= http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/LiarLiarPants.htm ------------------------------------------------- THE HUTCHISON EFFECT: A LIFT, DISRUPTION AND LUMINOUS ENERGY SYSTEM The original way that Hutchison set out his range of apparatus was, by industrial standards, primitive and crowded, with poor connections and hand-wound coils. But it was with this layout with its erratic standards that he obtained most of the best examples of objects levitating, despite the fact that the maximum power drawn was 1.5 kilowatts, and this from the ordinary power sockets of the house mains. The Hutchison device produces effects which can basically be divided into two categories, propulsive and energetic. It can induce lift in objects made of any material and also propel them laterally. It has been noted that there are four types of trajectory that affect objects weighing a few pounds, and all of these upward movements begin with a twisting spiral movement. Also, there has to be a particular geometry in relation to the direction of gravity, i.e., downwards of these objects, for them to be affected in this way. Some objects will not take off if you turn them on their sides, but will if you stand them on their ends. It is evident, therefore, that the relationship of their physical forms to the fields which swirl invisibly around them is important. Returning to the four modes of trajectory, first, there is the looping arc, where objects take off relatively slowly over a period of seconds, loop in the air and fall back to earth; then there is the ballistic take-off where objects shoot upwards suddenly, hit the ceiling and fall back down. A third type of trajectory is a powered one where there appears to be a continuous lifting force; and the fourth is where an object moves upwards and just hovers for some time. As mentioned, these objects can be of any material whatsoever, wood, plastics, copper, zinc, Styrofoam, etc. ================================================= Funnily enough, when I first read accounts of Hutchison's work some years ago I could see that the material phenomena were consistent with disturbances in Beta-atmosphere pressure but the weird dynamic effects seemed more like the operations of poltergeists than the results of kosher scientific experimentation. And no doubt that is why it attracted the interest of poltergeist hunters as you can see from the following excerpt. ================================================= http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/LiarLiarPants.htm ------------------------------------------------- Liar Liar, Pants on Fire Brian Allan 2001 Foreword This article began as an investigation into a possible mechanism behind poltergeist activity and related phenomena, but as the investigation proceeded, it became inexorably enmeshed within a completely unexpected area, namely the covert world of military intelligence, 'black' projects and superscience. While there may indeed be a separate, discarnate, spiritual explanation for the creation of anomalous sounds and the spontaneous, random movement of objects, there are other equally bizarre and worrying causes. ================================================= Since the military authorities seemed to be involved one might have thought they would have got to the bottom of things. Evidently not. They must have assumed that it was trickery or something and they would have plenty of Dr.Porks to assure them that such things were "completely impossible" and that they must be weak minded to be taken in by such conjuring tricks. Cold Fusion is a doddle by comparison. Mind you I haven't got a very high opinion of people involved with military research. I always remember the time I went down to the Military Experimental Establishment at Christchurch to observer the final experiments in a large soil-stabilization trial. I asked the officer in charge if I could have copy of the previous experiments. He replied, "I haven't got time to write up the results. Don't you realise there are 5 sergeants and 100 men who I've got to keep occupied." Still to be fair, as pointed out later in the above reference, ============================================== "It must be mentioned that 99 per cent of the time the objects do nothing at all, and one can wait for days before anything happens, but it is just this erratic unpredictability that one finds when investigating poltergeist activity." ============================================== I'm surprised someone didn't suggest they whistled up an exorcist. Mind you, the coincidence of discovering this ring vortex phenomena on a Vortex discussion group is rather spooky. Well, where does one go from here? It would be nice to think that some Vorts would take up the baton in view of the fact that EM seems to be the main area of expertise around. On the other hand the cognitive dissonance to all that a hard won education and lifetime's experience is probably too much. Still, to give the Vortexian community its due, it has always been very tolerant of my "concrete head" prognostications. I suppose I'll have to start with someone who actually witnessed the Hutchison phenomena and has always had it nagging at them. I've e-mailed George Hathaway earlier. As far as I can make out he seems a fairly sensible engineer and, presumably, he believes the Hutchison Effect is real since he is proposing to write Hutch's biography. I would welcome any other constructive suggestions that Vorts might come up with. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 15:34:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7NMY361006370; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:34:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7NMY1l3006330; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:34:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:34:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050823223337.76249.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:33:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: OU & resonant persistence To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: ah-gen yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the broader field of energy anomalies, there is a class of largely anecdotal phenomena which involve, not just resonance but extreme "resonant persistence" - a kind of reverberation that seems to last forever. The aim (of being this precise in verbalization) is to distinguish the time-frame for resonant decay in situations where the net energy may possibly surpass the input energy. Inherent in this understanding is the need to focus on the Maxwellian statistical distribution and the so-called "Boltzmann's tail" of that distribution. There is a Chapel in Scotland where scientifically recorded echos last fifteen seconds, and there are reports of Tibetan singing bowls, some made of a single gigantic crystal of quartz, with a reverberation peroiod of twice that long. They are called "singing" because the pitch seems to rise and fall rather than progress in a linear decay. At say 1000 Hz initially, decreasing to zero in 30 seconds, there would surely be 2,000 secondary "unpowered" sine waves following the initial "powered" one. It is somewhat surprising, given that kind of potential for OU, that an optimized thermodynamic balance has never been performed on objects like these. This is a preliminary post to what may become a more detailed essay, pending some promising experiments which are now underway by Ron Wormus, involving low duty arc discharges. All of these related ideas will share, as a starting point, the present analogy of the "tuning fork." If you have ever read the Keelynet stuff, you probably know it is one of Jerry Decker's favorite analogies... but it is not necessarily overworked as an accurate image, even for application to molecular gases, pulsed arc discharges, and cascading ions. The idea for finding OU based on resonant persistence - would be that if a certain periodic energy input is intense but infrequent, in a certain medium, then it may have a corresponding slow-resonant-decay, i.e. a very long Boltzmann's tail, so that if one can sum up the net resultant secondary energy, i.e. the "area under the curve," it would exceed the input energy. But this has never been demonstrated, in practice. For this process to violate the laws of thermodynamics, as currently understood, ZPE or the hydrino (or both) would need to be employed somehow. I have mentioned before the Wave Structure of Matter (WSM) website and the handy standing wave animation: http://www.spaceandmotion.com/summary-faq-wsm.htm This web site also has three interesting animations, http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/forkanim.html "On the sound field radiated by a tuning fork" by Daniel A. Russell With two tuning forks, when one is resonated, the other will begin to resonate with the excited one, coming to near the same energy level, with rather surprising persistence - and in theory a large number of tuning forks arranged optimally, might show some kind of mutually resonant energy anomaly, but again, this has not been demonstrated on either the macro or micro level. In the case of a tiny rigid cavity or molecular sphere - which is small enough to intercept ZPE frequencies - that object could function like a tuning fork or an antenna, absorbing and re-emitting energy in order to establish local equilibrium. At this level, so-called inelastic collsions are indeed "lossless" but that is not enough for overunity - the bulk collision energy must be non-conservative and dependent on "external" energy (ZPE) or at least supra-chemical energy (hydrino). The wave spectrum of particular interest is the one where phonon-photon resonance is possible. That is to say where sound and RF share common frequencies. When a few ions are also present in a gas, the situation becomes a hybrid of the tuning fork and the capacitor. With capacitors, AC passes through them easily because of the alternating currents "cascading" through alternating charges, and the same is true of RF radiation; but with the added potential synergy that the "standing RF wave" may actually "force" a cascading-ion effect. IOW even after the external power has been removed, a persistent standing wave may actually continue to ionize a previously exicted but un-ionized molecule which is proximate in the ever-growing and collapsing wave reverberation. I am also using the term "RF" to encompass sound frequencies in the few-kilohertz range. A phonon-photon frequency overlap seems to be a requirement for this. The "analogists-amongst-us", may notice the connection between this hybrid modality of standing wave+charge... and the low duty cycle of the MAHG.... I will almost assure you that OU or not, Ron will be able to locate the point where a decreasing duty cycle has no further net benefit - and it will likely be less than Naudin's 5%, one suspects. More later, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 17:00:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7O00Hgm005908; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:00:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7O00FNq005896; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:00:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:00:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5a83e$be1cbbc0$9f027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20050823211243.0096c23c pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:59:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote.. >I would welcome any other constructive suggestions that Vorts might come up with. No you don't Frank, you don't get off that easy after teasing my brain. Now consider a simple toy gyroscope, the type housed within a ring cage that has a small ball base which permits the thing to " gyrate". Given sufficent " windups", on occasion the gyro plays sneaky tricks on you by " contorting" into directions it is NOT supposed wander. To leave you with a thought.. The seeming occasional or the random.... may not be so random after all....Also, as the gyro rotational speed decays, the thing seems to " totter" with fatigue and suddenly " recharge" itself momentarily... a silver dollar spun on a flat surface will exhibit the same characteristics of fatigue and recharge..In fact , the dollar appears to " gain" energy by increasing its rotation at near collapse mode....hmm Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 19:06:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7O25f7W018529; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:05:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7O25dfr018516; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:05:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:05:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430BD5D7.4050304 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:05:11 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050513 Fedora/1.7.8-2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic but important References: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > I presume that everyone who reads Vortex values truth and reality. If > this is true, I suggest you read what is written at the following > link. The question raised by a mother who paid a dear price is being > asked by people everywhere. How big a lie must the government tell > before honest people object and before the government is replaced? Do you really think that, by telling real whoppers, the government is likely to cause people to doubt them? It doesn't work that way. I mean, really, Ed, haven't you heard of the "Big Lie" strategy? The bigger the lie, the harder it is for people to believe anybody would dare to say it if it weren't true. As to when the government will be "replaced" .... if you mean "voted out of office", it'll be in 2008, 2012, or 2016, I'm sure; very unlikely the Reps will stay in office longer than that, just based on historical patterns and how many problems they're building up for themselves. If you mean "impeached", the answer's very probably "never" for this administration. "High crimes and misdemeanors" about covers what the Prez can be impeached for. Lying to the public almost certainly doesn't qualify. > > Ed Storms > > http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082005X.sht > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 19:10:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7O28wZQ019956; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:09:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7O28vlc019938; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:08:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:08:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <051d01c5a850$c230b830$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> <430BD5D7.4050304@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Off topic but important Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:08:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bush's poll numbers are below 40% positive in OH and MO. No way the Republicans can win in 2008 without either of those important swing states. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Off topic but important > > > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> I presume that everyone who reads Vortex values truth and reality. If >> this is true, I suggest you read what is written at the following link. >> The question raised by a mother who paid a dear price is being asked by >> people everywhere. How big a lie must the government tell before honest >> people object and before the government is replaced? > > Do you really think that, by telling real whoppers, the government is > likely to cause people to doubt them? It doesn't work that way. I mean, > really, Ed, haven't you heard of the "Big Lie" strategy? The bigger the > lie, the harder it is for people to believe anybody would dare to say it > if it weren't true. > > As to when the government will be "replaced" .... if you mean "voted out > of office", it'll be in 2008, 2012, or 2016, I'm sure; very unlikely the > Reps will stay in office longer than that, just based on historical > patterns and how many problems they're building up for themselves. If you > mean "impeached", the answer's very probably "never" for this > administration. "High crimes and misdemeanors" about covers what the Prez > can be impeached for. Lying to the public almost certainly doesn't > qualify. > >> >> Ed Storms >> >> http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082005X.sht >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 23 21:13:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7O4DPf5007073; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:13:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7O4DNuI007051; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:13:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:13:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430BF34C.4040006 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:10:52 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic but important References: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> <430B49B8.9000504@iinet.net.au> <430B6207.6010405@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <430B6207.6010405 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can agree with all of what you've said below. I'm assuming that if 'we' pull out there will be no US or Aussy air power involved. the Iraqi air force is in pieces so Syria and Iran would back oposite sides and throw their air power into the picture. Hope fully your right and things will be less lethal but I can't see how a poorly planned pull out would help. Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> I value the truth but I also know that if we pull out now about 5 >> million people will die in the bloodiest civil war in middle east >> history. It would quickly involve Syria, Iran, Jordan and might spill >> over into turkey and Saudi Arabia. We needed to take out Saddam >> regardless of his success or failures in making weapons of mass >> destruction. Justice not fear should have led us to act ages ago. War >> is an imperfect tool and a dangerous one but some times no other >> option remains. > > > OK, I'll bite, how do you know that the civil war, which I agree will > happen, will have this effect? Consider these possibilities. We > eventually have to pull out, if for no other reason than we run out of > volunteer troops. No informed person believes that all of the internal > problems will be resolved by that time. Hatreds built up over > generations will remain, the infrastructure will still be a mess, and > unemployment will be high. In other words, the people will still be > pissed off with each other and with us. Yes, there will be a bloodbath > within the country, which I might add, will be our fault. What we have > done will be resented by people in that area for generations. However, > why would Syria, Iran or the other countries get involved except in a > minor way, such as giving aid to one side or the other. These > countries have no self interest in getting bombed by the US. A general > war would have to be fought without aircraft, because the US can shoot > down anything in the air. On the other hand, the longer we stay, the > more of our people die, the more we spend, the more terrorists are > trained, and the greater will be their wish to get even. As for > Saddam, we supported him for many years and gave him the tools to > control and kill his own people. Only when he threatened "our" oil > did we decide he was "bad". Were do you find justice in our history > there? > > >> If we want a better tool than War then we must work harder to find >> such tools. I think the World Federalists >> might have a clue but in the >> final analysis if any population like the "Sunni Triangle" decide it >> can't handle its neighbours having a fare share or objects to having >> to work for a living; if any one decides he has the dieing need to >> kill to force his beliefs on others then, yes, war is all they can >> expect in any world any one can imagine. Name one real or fictional >> society that has faced such terrorism and not had to step in Armed? > > > Such terrorism has been practiced throughout history, and especially > in Europe. Only when it happened here did we attack a country that > had nothing to do with the event. The issue is not responding to > terrorism, but how this can best be done. Bush has chosen the worst > possible approach, but one that gets support from the uninformed. > > Regards, > Ed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 02:47:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7O9lMUN022498; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:47:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7O9lJJF022477; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:47:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:47:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050824094701.00964bac pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:47:01 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following excerpt suggest that the Vort member, George Hathaway, personally witnessed some of the Hutchison Effect phenomena. It will be interesting to see precisely what it was that he witnessed and what he believes the underlying cause to be - if he is willing to testify, that is - and doesn't plead the fifth amendment. =================================================== John Kenneth Hutchison of Vancouver, Canada, tinkered with an array of simultaneously interactive fields; a combination of electrostatic, magnetic, microwave and Tesla Coil fields. Without predictable warning and with some randomness, these fields interacted with objects. Levitations, thrusted weights, glowing, apparent softening and bending of hard metal alloys, and strange alloy separations were some of the phenomena reported. Some events were witnessed and reported by George Hathaway." Additional details of the experiments are related in the Electric Spacecraft journal. One series of experiments was performed while observers from Los Alamos Laboratory, U. S. aircraft firms, and military personnel observed and made video camera recordings. There is no doubt that things happened which were dffficult to explain. However, the experimental procedures were such that John Kenneth Hutchison would try various combinations of pulsed power, microwaves, etc., without records to correlate what caused what. The best that could be done at the time was to observe. There is no claim of electrogravitic forces here, but massive objects were said to have moved, presumably as a result of the externally applied fields. Mr. Hutchison claimed that the presence of heavy masses was important in his levitation experiments. The phenomenon generated by Mr. Hutchison requires more investigation. =================================================== That last sentence is the understatement of the century. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 03:05:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OA5F5a028232; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:05:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OA5EeK028205; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:05:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:05:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430C4644.704 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:04:52 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peak Oil References: <20050820205605.CXSG28589.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050820180802.029a3288@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050820180802.029a3288 mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0HjxP.A.p4G.ZZEDDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An interesting addition on the peak oil debate. http://www.mises.org/story/1892 Steven Krivit wrote: > >> >> Seems they have begun their own research re: Hubbert Peak and the >> truth about our oil supply and are realizing that they will never see >> $2/gal gas again. Many are dumping their SUVs and pickups. In a >> company gathering I stood up to speak and mentioned that rapid >> transit and commuter rail will (our business) will prosper in two >> years when gas hits $5/gal . . . well, you can guess the reaction. > > > > Terry, any idea how they are tuned into Hubbert's Peak / Peak Oil? > > I'm not seeing much in the way of coverage, though my head's so deep > in cf, I could easily miss it. > > Thanks, > > Steve > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 04:21:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OBKXlR021618; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:20:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OBKUUm021589; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:20:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:20:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430C57EC.2080704 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:20:12 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nanotube Sheets References: <20050823163643.JAQ9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050823163643.JAQ9746.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Aussy CSIRO end of the breakthrough is at: http://www.csiro.au/index.asp?type=mediarelease&id=153nanojoint and http://www.tft.csiro.au/main.htm and http://www.tft.csiro.au/research/pdf/KenAtkinsonCarbonNaontubes1358.pdf Aussys rule!!! >:o I'm biased. I'm an Aussy and I live near the CSIRO headquarters in Canberra. Too bad the textile labs in Victoria. :'( Terry Blanton wrote: >http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/uota-utd081505.php > >"RICHARDSON, Texas (Aug. 18, 2005) - University of Texas at Dallas (UTD) nanotechnologists and an Australian colleague have produced transparent carbon nanotube sheets that are stronger than the same-weight steel sheets and have demonstrated applicability for organic light-emitting displays, low-noise electronic sensors, artificial muscles, conducting appliqués and broad-band polarized light sources that can be switched in one ten-thousandths of a second. " > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 05:24:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OCOEQs011266; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:24:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OCO8f2011153; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:24:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:24:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Nanotube Sheets Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 8:23:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050824122339.MHVN2395.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Wesley Bruce > http://www.tft.csiro.au/research/pdf/KenAtkinsonCarbonNaontubes1358.pdf Great SEM piccys in this one! > Aussys rule!!! >:o Well, you certainly prove G-d has a sense of humor: animals with built-in pockets and the platypus! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 06:18:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7ODISqO003450; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:18:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7ODIRBm003428; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:18:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:18:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Cold Fusion Description Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 9:18:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050824131805.PRQD2395.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting that attitudes do seem to be achanging: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-cold-fusion.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 07:33:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OEXH90031896; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:33:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OEXEi2031872; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:33:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:33:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050824143247.1163.qmail web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:32:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: OU & resonant persistence To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: ah-gen yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050823223337.76249.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One further note and addenda. And a possible "eureka moment"... I have received some interesting related information from Mitchell Swartz which will be covered in a latter post based on von Hippels' "Dielectrics and Waves" and Michell's paper in IE : Swartz. M., "Dances with Protons - Ferroelectric Inscriptions in Water/Ice Relevant to Cold Fusion and Some Energy Systems", Infinite Energy, 44, (2002). This present posting which follows is related to the small (or not) item in the previous post about the very long kinetic reverberation period of Tibetan singing bowls, and the possible application of phonon-photon resonance to an OU energy device. It has probably not escaped notice that the thick MAHG anode may have certain related properties to bowls of this general type and/or that "thermoacoustics" is a hot topic these days in energy conversion. Even on the far fringe of science, these kinds of speculations should be kept as accurate as possible - with as little resort to anecdote as possible. I actually have a Tibetan bowl, and knew of their unusual properties, but had written an expert for more information. The answer came today - too late to include in the prior post, but was indeed quite a surprise - more like a shock. I am going to include portions of this message: "The length of tone varies enormously [snip}. The average for audible tones is about 40 seconds, which some harmonic tones lingering longer [snip] Anything one minute or more is fairly exceptional. Very thick antiques tend to ring longer but here are some new bowls that ring for a very long time - up to 3-4 minutes. Ironically, the long ring is achieved with very inexpensive metal - copper - and the cheap new bowls may ring long, but they don't sound very good." END of quote. In the previous posting I had opined that 30 seconds would have been exceptional, possible overunity in terms of kinetics, but had no knowledge of the fact that copper would "ring" for 3-4 minutes - so long as one were not terribly concerned about sound quality. Wow. Of course, in a heating-device situation, where one was intentionally removing energy, the ring-time would be reduced, but the prospect of this is enormously interesting in the context of thermoacoustics. As noted previously we have never been privy to a wiring diagram, but the anode of MAHG appears to "float" and seems to be ungrounded. This is important in the context of a thermoacoustic anode - which can become (if floating) a "virtual AC electrode at the ringing frequency. This new message from the Tibetan bowl expert is very interesting in that it pinpoints copper itself in a bowl-like configuration as having very long potential rings times. Combine that detail with the knowledge that high heat would probably squelch the ringing - and we could very possibly be closer to understanding one element of what may be going-on in a complex process - the MAHG. [WITH THE USUAL CAVEATS]....But more importantly, perhaps we are being led to an alternative (improved) method of achieving results, using a multi-layered excitation (different overlapping frequencies) and a much reduced duty <5% duty cycle. Ockham be damned....plus, the merger of science and spirituality in a absolutely mind-blowing and unexpected way. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 07:35:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OEYmnI001460; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:35:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OEYf1M001332; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:34:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:34:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Sarfati's comment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ================================================== CAUSALITY-VIOLATING QUANTUM ACTION AT A DISTANCE? by Dr. Jack Sarfatti ... the universe is created by intelligent design but the Designer lives in our far future and has evolved from us. ================================================= Sounds like lifting yourself up by your shoelaces. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 07:35:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OEYuMn001744; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:35:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OEYnZr001500; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:34:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:34:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:34:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: OFF topic but important Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1087228417==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1087228417==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Ed Storms posted and I replied Dear Tom, >I don't want to get into a pointless and fruitless debate. However, our >country is in serious trouble, not just because of the Iraq war. I agree. I just finishing reading Fleshing out Skull and Bones. One of the authors is the late Antony Sutton see www.antonysutton.com , he authored Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, and Wall Street and the Nazis,, both of which are available on line. The elite has made a series of bad decisions. IMHO, it is now too late to change the direction of the USS Titanic, even if we had control, which we don't. IMHO, we could have more than doubled the fuel efficiency of the system, but the elite chose not to. Automobile fuel usage could have been doubled. by using steam injection and building hybrids. Instead we build conventional V8's and gave tax credits for GVW's in excess of 7000 lbs. We could have built more nuclear plants and tapped the Canadian tar deposits. Instead we continued on our merry way and now we are hostage to the Saudi's. I could write a page on stupid decisions that the elite has made. IMHO, they are either insane, or in league with Satan. Since they are running the world, and I'm not, I think that we an rule out the insanity defense. Nevertheless, I strongly suggest you read "The Demise of the Dollar" by Addison Wiggin to understand the financial issues. I saw the collapse of the dollar coming 40 years ago. Have you ever heard of John A Stormer's None Dare Call it Treason? I'm surprised that the country has gone on this long. The economy has been kept afloat by the housing market, which is being fueled by oil money. I've concluded that it is the will of G-d. We believe that Jeremiah 50 - 51 pertains to America. G-d is quoted as saying that Babylon was his hammer, but now the hammer (enforcer) of the nations is broken. >You only need to follow the Iraq war on TV to know enough about The TV news is garbage. The worst the news the better it sells. Ditto for the newspapers. The big papers have seen their circulation decline as their version of reality becomes more and more offensive to their readers. The reporters (distorters) have their own leftist agenda. If you want to hear the truth on Iraq, go to the blogisphere and conservative talk radio. I've listened to what the soldiers have to say on talk radio and it is night and day difference from the version that you see on the main stream media. One of the talkers, Hugh Hewitt, www.hughhewitt.com is looking for intelligent liberals like you to argue with. His show is available on line, and they put liberals at the call list. >Everyone wants to trust our president and the government. Bushie stabbed the Christian conservatives who elected him in the back. He has knuckled under to the Saudis, and told Israel to withdraw behind their 1948 boarders. We believe that this is the dividing of the land Joel 3. which brings a curse on the nations which brought it about. Bushie has also failed to defend the boarders, reign in the leftist lawyers, and stop liberal insanity, in particular political correctness. The Southern Poverty Law Center just stole a ranch from a rancher who detained some aliens. Bushie knows what The issues that the Savage is concerned about, but he chooses to ignore him. >testament to our Christian beliefs. However, what happens when the Our Christian beliefs? are you the same Ed Storms that I've been corresponding with? I thought that you were an agnostic. >What happens when the goals of the leadership are different from the >goals of ordinary people? When this happens in a democracy, the leaders Read Jeremiah 50 - 51, that's what going to happen. >The reasons Bush used to attack Iraq have been shown to be wrong - no >WMD, no relationship to 9/11, no terrorists in Iraq, and no nuclear If you believe that, you've been watching too much TV news Ed. The Kurds didn't gas them selves in order to make Saddam look bad. There is evidence that an Iraqi soldier was John Doe II, McVeigh's accomplice at the Murrah Building (Oklahoma City) bombing. Ditto for 9/11. Just before the invasion, they were running convoys of trucks into Syria and burying them in the desert. It doesn't require an MBA to realize, that's not commerce as usual. Saddam was giving $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers. He had training camps where men were trained to take over an airplane with short bladed knives. The terrorist leaders were regular visitors in Iraq. >troops have been killed or injured, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have >been killed, the infrastructure of the country has collapsed, and the >area has become a training ground for more terrorists. The terrorists are to blame for the mess that Iraq is in. They could have let us set us set up a democratic government and we would have left. But for their own reasons, they prefer to fight. I suppose they realize that the average Iraqi doesn't like living is a dictatorship any more than we would, and so they chose to keep them from experiencing democracy. ' >I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept? How much The elite are firmly in control. If voting could change anything, it would already have been made illegal. They have the two party system, and the I don't want to vote for a looser mentality of most voters. We had a third party, but Pat Buchanan took care of that. >I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept? >How >much support do you want to give a government that shows >an >inability to deal with reality on a grand scale? You're assuming that you can do something about the government. You know what happens when you ass-u-me? >poorer schools or have no medical care because the money is used >to >blowup Iraq? One of the elite's agenda's is the deliberate dumbing down of the masses, see www.deliberatedumbingdown.com . The more money we spend on the public schools, the worse job they do. As for medical care, the elite promotes allopathic medicine and it's over priced poisons. Most every week, Parksie is crowing about the evils of naturalopathic medicine and how it needs to be legislated out of existence for the public's own good. I haven't read Kevin Trudeau's book, but I know that there are natural remedies for most every thing. Most Americans want to eat garbage food, and drink soda pop, and then let the doctor fix them up. > The government says that if we don't do this, we will >experience even worse in the future. What if they are wrong? I agree with them. Anyone who reads the Qu ran and the Hadibth realizes that a literal interpretation of the book requires it's followers to conquer the infidel and kill or convert them. In this effort it is OK to lie and do what ever else is required. See www.prophetofdoom.net and www.jihadwatch.org . As Eber prophecized in the Midrash on Genesis, there isn't room for the two of us on this planet. >We were given the same kind of arguments about why we could not >withdraw from Vietnam - Vietnam is an example of a politician Lyndon Johnson, attempting to wage a limited war. His efforts were, IMHO, a classic example of incompetence. Then the liberals in the press undermined public support for the war. > I suggest you answer these questions because your future >will depend on your answers. And I want to make the case that there is nothing that we can do about it. --============_-1087228417==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" OFF topic but important
Ed Storms posted and I replied

Dear Tom,

>I don't want to get into a pointless and fruitless debate.  However, our
>country is in serious trouble, not just because of the Iraq war. 
I agree. I just finishing reading Fleshing out Skull and Bones. One of the authors is the late Antony Sutton see www.antonysutton.com , he authored Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, and Wall Street and the Nazis,, both of which are available on line. The elite has made a series of bad decisions. IMHO, it is now too late to change the direction of the USS Titanic, even if we had control, which we don't.

 IMHO, we could have more than doubled the fuel efficiency of  the system, but the elite chose not to. Automobile fuel usage could have been doubled. by using steam injection and building hybrids. Instead we build conventional V8's and gave tax credits for GVW's in excess of 7000 lbs. We could have built more nuclear plants and tapped the Canadian tar deposits. Instead we  continued on our merry way and now we are hostage to the Saudi's.

I could write a page on stupid decisions that the elite has made. IMHO, they are either insane, or in league with Satan. Since they are running the world, and I'm not, I think that we an rule out the insanity defense.

  Nevertheless, I strongly suggest you read "The
Demise of the Dollar" by Addison Wiggin to understand the financial
issues.
I saw the collapse of the dollar coming 40 years ago. Have you ever heard of John A Stormer's None Dare Call it Treason? I'm surprised that the country has gone on this long. The economy has been kept afloat by the housing market, which is being fueled by oil money. I've concluded that it is the will of G-d. We believe that Jeremiah 50 - 51 pertains to America. G-d is quoted as  saying that Babylon was his hammer, but now the hammer (enforcer) of the nations is broken.

>You only need to follow the Iraq war on TV to know enough about
The TV news is garbage. The worst the news the better it sells. Ditto for the newspapers. The big papers have seen their circulation decline as their version of reality becomes more and more offensive to their readers. The reporters (distorters) have their own leftist agenda. If you want to hear the truth on Iraq, go to the blogisphere and conservative talk radio.  I've listened to what the soldiers have to say on talk radio and it is night and day difference from the version that you see on the main stream media.

One of the talkers, Hugh Hewitt, www.hughhewitt.com is looking for intelligent liberals like you to argue with. His show is available on line, and they put liberals at the call list.

>Everyone wants to trust our president and the government. 
Bushie stabbed the Christian conservatives who elected him in the back. He has knuckled under to the Saudis, and told Israel to withdraw behind their 1948 boarders. We believe that this is the dividing of the land Joel 3. which brings a curse on the nations which brought it about.

Bushie has also failed to defend the boarders, reign in the leftist lawyers, and stop liberal insanity, in particular political correctness. The Southern Poverty Law Center just stole a ranch from a rancher who detained some aliens. Bushie knows what The issues that the Savage is concerned about, but he chooses to ignore him.


>testament to our Christian beliefs. However, what happens when the
Our Christian beliefs? are you the same Ed Storms that I've been corresponding with? I thought that you were an agnostic.

  >What happens when the goals of the leadership are different from the
>goals of ordinary people?  When this happens in a democracy, the leaders
Read Jeremiah 50 - 51, that's what going to happen.

>The reasons Bush used to attack Iraq have been shown to be wrong - no
>WMD, no relationship to 9/11, no terrorists in Iraq, and no nuclear
If you believe that, you've been watching too much TV news Ed. The Kurds didn't gas  them selves in order to make Saddam look bad. There is evidence that an Iraqi soldier was John Doe II, McVeigh's accomplice at the Murrah Building (Oklahoma City) bombing. Ditto for 9/11. Just before the invasion, they were running convoys of trucks into Syria and burying them in the desert. It doesn't require an MBA to realize, that's not commerce as usual. Saddam was giving $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers. He had training camps where men were trained to take over an airplane with short bladed knives. The terrorist leaders were regular visitors in Iraq.

>troops have been killed or injured, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have
>been killed, the infrastructure of the country has collapsed, and the
>area has become a training ground for more terrorists.

The terrorists are to blame for the mess that Iraq is in. They could have let us set us set up a democratic government and we would have left. But for their own reasons, they prefer to fight. I suppose they realize that the average Iraqi doesn't like living is a dictatorship any more than we would, and so they chose to keep them from experiencing democracy.
'

>I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept?  How much
The elite are firmly in control. If voting could change anything, it would already have been made illegal. They have the two party system, and the I don't want to vote for a looser mentality of most voters. We had a third party, but Pat Buchanan took care of that.

>I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept?  How >much support do you want to give a government that shows an >inability to deal with reality on a grand scale? 

You're assuming that you can do something about the government. You know what happens when you ass-u-me?

>poorer schools or have no medical care because the money is used >to blowup Iraq?

One of the elite's agenda's is the deliberate dumbing down of the masses, see www.deliberatedumbingdown.com . The more money we spend on the public schools, the worse job they do.

As for medical care, the elite promotes allopathic medicine and it's over priced poisons. Most every week, Parksie is crowing about the evils of naturalopathic medicine and how it needs to be legislated out of existence for the public's own good. I haven't read Kevin Trudeau's book, but I know that there are natural remedies for most every thing. Most Americans want to eat garbage food, and drink soda pop, and then let the doctor fix them up.

> The government says that if we don't do this, we will
>experience even worse in the future.  What if they are wrong?

I agree with them. Anyone who reads the Qu ran and the Hadibth realizes that a literal interpretation of the book requires it's followers to conquer the infidel and kill or convert them. In this effort it is OK to lie and do what ever else is required. See www.prophetofdoom.net and www.jihadwatch.org .

As Eber prophecized in the Midrash on Genesis, there isn't room for the two of us on this planet. 

 >We were given the same kind of arguments about why we could not >withdraw from Vietnam -

Vietnam is an example of a politician Lyndon Johnson, attempting to wage a limited war. His efforts were, IMHO, a classic example of incompetence. Then the liberals in the press undermined public support for the war.

> I suggest you answer these questions because your future
>will depend on your answers.
And I want to make the case that there is nothing that we can do about it.
--============_-1087228417==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 07:41:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OEebOM005754; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:40:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OEeZIb005740; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:40:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:40:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430C8734.9080106 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:41:56 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic but important References: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> <430B49B8.9000504@iinet.net.au> <430B6207.6010405@ix.netcom.com> <430BF34C.4040006@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <430BF34C.4040006 iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > I can agree with all of what you've said below. I'm assuming that if > 'we' pull out there will be no US or Aussy air power involved. the Iraqi > air force is in pieces so Syria and Iran would back oposite sides and > throw their air power into the picture. Hope fully your right and things > will be less lethal but I can't see how a poorly planned pull out would > help. Edmund Storms wrote: I agree, a poorly planned pullout would not be good. The same argument was applied to the Vietnam situation. However, we do not have control of the situation. We have not been able to arrange things to provide us with a good time to pullout, although we have defined the conditions needed. This was also true of Vietnam. I predict the situation will develop exactly like it did in Vietnam. The leaders will assume they can win, allow more people to die, and then pullout with their tail between their legs when the insurgents find their stride. Meanwhile, the US will suffer a serious depression that will shift popular support away from the war and present policies. Regards, Ed > >> >> >> Wesley Bruce wrote: >> >>> I value the truth but I also know that if we pull out now about 5 >>> million people will die in the bloodiest civil war in middle east >>> history. It would quickly involve Syria, Iran, Jordan and might spill >>> over into turkey and Saudi Arabia. We needed to take out Saddam >>> regardless of his success or failures in making weapons of mass >>> destruction. Justice not fear should have led us to act ages ago. War >>> is an imperfect tool and a dangerous one but some times no other >>> option remains. >> >> >> >> OK, I'll bite, how do you know that the civil war, which I agree will >> happen, will have this effect? Consider these possibilities. We >> eventually have to pull out, if for no other reason than we run out of >> volunteer troops. No informed person believes that all of the internal >> problems will be resolved by that time. Hatreds built up over >> generations will remain, the infrastructure will still be a mess, and >> unemployment will be high. In other words, the people will still be >> pissed off with each other and with us. Yes, there will be a bloodbath >> within the country, which I might add, will be our fault. What we have >> done will be resented by people in that area for generations. However, >> why would Syria, Iran or the other countries get involved except in a >> minor way, such as giving aid to one side or the other. These >> countries have no self interest in getting bombed by the US. A general >> war would have to be fought without aircraft, because the US can shoot >> down anything in the air. On the other hand, the longer we stay, the >> more of our people die, the more we spend, the more terrorists are >> trained, and the greater will be their wish to get even. As for >> Saddam, we supported him for many years and gave him the tools to >> control and kill his own people. Only when he threatened "our" oil >> did we decide he was "bad". Were do you find justice in our history >> there? >> >> >>> If we want a better tool than War then we must work harder to find >>> such tools. I think the World Federalists >>> might have a clue but in the >>> final analysis if any population like the "Sunni Triangle" decide it >>> can't handle its neighbours having a fare share or objects to having >>> to work for a living; if any one decides he has the dieing need to >>> kill to force his beliefs on others then, yes, war is all they can >>> expect in any world any one can imagine. Name one real or fictional >>> society that has faced such terrorism and not had to step in Armed? >> >> >> >> Such terrorism has been practiced throughout history, and especially >> in Europe. Only when it happened here did we attack a country that >> had nothing to do with the event. The issue is not responding to >> terrorism, but how this can best be done. Bush has chosen the worst >> possible approach, but one that gets support from the uninformed. >> >> Regards, >> Ed >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 08:04:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OF3oGa017276; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:04:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OF3mqv017258; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:03:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:03:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OU & resonant persistence Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:03:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050824150327.YUEA2395.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Jones Beene > Ockham be damned....plus, the merger of science and > spirituality in a absolutely mind-blowing and > unexpected way. What is really mind-blowing is how Beene and Grimer are merging in their speculation. It lends credence to something I have read regarding the Coral Castle in Florida, Tibetian Monks, and John Keeley. Here's a sample of Monks elevating stones with sound alone: http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa031901b.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 08:06:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OF5VDX018852; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:05:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OF5U55018835; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:05:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:05:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Acoustic Antigravity Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:05:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050824150508.YYRA2395.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's another reference: http://www.crystalinks.com/levitationtibet.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 08:47:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OFkPE8009988; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:46:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OFkNkL009954; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:46:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:46:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430C9637.8060202 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:45:59 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic but important References: <430A4F4E.8090001 ix.netcom.com> <430B49B8.9000504@iinet.net.au> <430B6207.6010405@ix.netcom.com> <430BF34C.4040006@iinet.net.au> <430C8734.9080106@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <430C8734.9080106 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sad but possibly true. We better be ready for a few hundred thousand refugees. We called the Vietnamese refugees boat people and processed them in record time because we had several thousand trusted Vietnamese troops and intelegence officers that could sort them out. Hope it works out as good or better with Iraq. Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> I can agree with all of what you've said below. I'm assuming that if >> 'we' pull out there will be no US or Aussy air power involved. the >> Iraqi air force is in pieces so Syria and Iran would back oposite >> sides and throw their air power into the picture. Hope fully your >> right and things will be less lethal but I can't see how a poorly >> planned pull out would help. Edmund Storms wrote: > > > I agree, a poorly planned pullout would not be good. The same argument > was applied to the Vietnam situation. However, we do not have control > of the situation. We have not been able to arrange things to provide > us with a good time to pullout, although we have defined the > conditions needed. This was also true of Vietnam. I predict the > situation will develop exactly like it did in Vietnam. The leaders > will assume they can win, allow more people to die, and then pullout > with their tail between their legs when the insurgents find their > stride. Meanwhile, the US will suffer a serious depression that will > shift popular support away from the war and present policies. > > Regards, > Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 09:47:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OGlOEj011424; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:47:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OGlMXO011403; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:47:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:47:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:47:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron In-reply-to: <43075657.5070704 sumosound.de> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Huffman wrote: > Grimer wrote: > >> >> You could have added Casimir pressure for good measure. 8-) >> >> My preferred term is Beta-atmosphere since I find the analogy >> with atmospheric pressure useful - and it arises naturally if >> one starts one's analysis with sands and clays which are held >> together by Alpha-atmospheric pressure in the case of coarse >> sands (pF < 15 psi) and Beta-atmospheric pressure in the case >> of clays, say. (pF > 15 psi). > > Moin Frank, > > So, you are basically changing the baseline for pressure to 15psi, but > you do still agree with the majority of the scientific community, that > all pressure is positive with relation to no pressure, and that there is > no such thing as negative pressure with relation to no pressure. > > Knuke > Assuming negative pressure is possible, what would that imply? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 10:46:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OHjttJ003118; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:46:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OHjrN8003095; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:45:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:45:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050824174536.009b81a4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:45:36 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:47 pm 24/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Michael Huffman wrote: > >> Grimer wrote: >> >>> >>> You could have added Casimir pressure for good measure. 8-) >>> >>> My preferred term is Beta-atmosphere since I find the analogy >>> with atmospheric pressure useful - and it arises naturally if >>> one starts one's analysis with sands and clays which are held >>> together by Alpha-atmospheric pressure in the case of coarse >>> sands (pF < 15 psi) and Beta-atmospheric pressure in the case >>> of clays, say. (pF > 15 psi). >> >> Moin Frank, >> >> So, you are basically changing the baseline for pressure to 15psi, but >> you do still agree with the majority of the scientific community, that >> all pressure is positive with relation to no pressure, and that there is >> no such thing as negative pressure with relation to no pressure. >> >> Knuke >> > > >Assuming negative pressure is possible, what would that imply? > >Harry It would imply you are working from the wrong datum for zero pressure - something analogous to working from the wrong datum for the motion of the sun and planets or the wrong datum for temperature. Historically, people have always started from an anthropomorphic datum. It is the natural thing to do. For example, they set the datum for temperature at O degrees Centigrade. Eventually the maths of the relation between temperature and volume for gases showed them what datum they should start from. This is exactly what happened to Hewitt and I in relation to stress on concrete, water, etc., as you will see if you care to read.... ================================================== GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. Structure, Solid Mechanics and Engineering Design. Proceedings of the Southampton 1969 Civil Engineering Conference. (M.Te'eni, Ed.), Wiley Interscience, pp 681 - 691, 1972. =================================================== ......which you will find in the "Files" section at the following location. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 11:20:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OIFQo1017448; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:15:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OIFO4o017437; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:15:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:15:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48uv17$3gd54q mxip26a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,138,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="117871770:sNHT17446360" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Off topic but important Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:14:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Statistically, it seems likely to me that the Republican administration will be voted out of office in 2008. I specifically use the term "republican administration" as compared to the presidency, because it seems to me that our president, Bush, is not the actual entity making policy. I think it would be more accurate to say it's the republican administration that Bush has surrounded himself with that is in truth making the policy, a policy we are reaping the consequences of. It's quite clear to most that Bush isn't the sharpest tack on the block. While I don't mean to imply he's stupid, I've never heard a single original thought come out of him. I suspect that is one of the reasons the republican administration did their best to get him into office. It allows an administration, a regime, to more effectively dictate policy. Government by committee has its good and bad points. Also, the cynical side of me perceives this as just one many inevitable political cycles our nation seems to go through as the population eventually gets fed up with the current administration's policies. It doesn't matter WHO is currently in power. Ya gotta blame someone. The scapegoat must go. It many not be a perfect fit but there are indeed growing similarities between Iraq and the Vietnam saga. As time marches on and more coffins fly home it seems likely to me that those similarities will only become more striking. If the current administration continues to keep our troop strength at current levels in Iraq into 2008, and that scary scenario remains a distinct possibility, it seems quite likely to me that there will be massive protests on the same scale as during the Vietnam era. We are seeing the beginnings of the protest movement today. It first starts a grieving mother camping out on the outskirts of the president's vacation grounds. Events snowball from there. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 11:40:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OIdmT9027412; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:40:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OIdlNw027401; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:39:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:39:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:39:57 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050824174536.009b81a4 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Grimer, Last week I tried a new setting on my spam filter which had the undesirable effect of blocking email from the vortex list. I have now read your Aug. 19 post in the vortex archives on the meaning of neutral mass. Grimer wrote: > At 12:47 pm 24/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> Michael Huffman wrote: >> >>> Grimer wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> You could have added Casimir pressure for good measure. 8-) >>>> >>>> My preferred term is Beta-atmosphere since I find the analogy >>>> with atmospheric pressure useful - and it arises naturally if >>>> one starts one's analysis with sands and clays which are held >>>> together by Alpha-atmospheric pressure in the case of coarse >>>> sands (pF < 15 psi) and Beta-atmospheric pressure in the case >>>> of clays, say. (pF > 15 psi). >>> >>> Moin Frank, >>> >>> So, you are basically changing the baseline for pressure to 15psi, but >>> you do still agree with the majority of the scientific community, that >>> all pressure is positive with relation to no pressure, and that there is >>> no such thing as negative pressure with relation to no pressure. >>> >>> Knuke >>> >> >> >> Assuming negative pressure is possible, what would that imply? >> >> Harry > > > It would imply you are working from the wrong datum for zero > pressure - something analogous to working from the wrong > datum for the motion of the sun and planets or the wrong datum > for temperature. The same criticism could apply to your notions of negative and positive mass. > Historically, people have always started from an anthropomorphic > datum. It is the natural thing to do. For example, they set the > datum for temperature at O degrees Centigrade. Eventually the > maths of the relation between temperature and volume for gases > showed them what datum they should start from. This is exactly > what happened to Hewitt and I in relation to stress on concrete, > water, etc., as you will see if you care to read.... > > ================================================== > GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the > stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted > with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. > Structure, Solid Mechanics and Engineering Design. > Proceedings of the Southampton 1969 Civil > Engineering Conference. (M.Te'eni, Ed.), > Wiley Interscience, pp 681 - 691, 1972. > =================================================== > > ......which you will find in the "Files" section at > the following location. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ > > Frank Grimer > Ok, I will have a look. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 12:43:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OJhHev028359; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OJhEWJ028323; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:43:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:43:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:42:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050824194251.TKNH2395.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > ================================================== > GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the > stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted > with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. My Civil Engineer coworker said that the formulas for post stress concrete changed around this time. Did you have something to do with that? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 13:07:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OK6rS2009732; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:07:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OK6p3a009687; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:06:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:06:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050824200632.00972ef4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:06:32 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:39 pm 24/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Frank Grimer, > >Last week I tried a new setting on my spam filter >which had the undesirable effect of blocking email from the vortex list. >I have now read your Aug. 19 post in the vortex archives on the meaning of >neutral mass. > > >Grimer wrote: > >> At 12:47 pm 24/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>> Michael Huffman wrote: >>> >>>> Grimer wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> You could have added Casimir pressure for good measure. 8-) >>>>> >>>>> My preferred term is Beta-atmosphere since I find the analogy >>>>> with atmospheric pressure useful - and it arises naturally if >>>>> one starts one's analysis with sands and clays which are held >>>>> together by Alpha-atmospheric pressure in the case of coarse >>>>> sands (pF < 15 psi) and Beta-atmospheric pressure in the case >>>>> of clays, say. (pF > 15 psi). >>>> >>>> Moin Frank, >>>> >>>> So, you are basically changing the baseline for pressure to 15psi, but >>>> you do still agree with the majority of the scientific community, that >>>> all pressure is positive with relation to no pressure, and that there is >>>> no such thing as negative pressure with relation to no pressure. >>>> >>>> Knuke >>>> >>> >>> >>> Assuming negative pressure is possible, what would that imply? >>> >>> Harry >> >> >> It would imply you are working from the wrong datum for zero >> pressure - something analogous to working from the wrong >> datum for the motion of the sun and planets or the wrong datum >> for temperature. > >The same criticism could apply to your notions of >negative and positive mass. Absolutely 8-). You are so right. 8-) I am using a conventional datum cos there is only so much cognitive dissonance that people can cope with at one sitting. As I have pointed out in a previous post, both Ing.Saviour and I have independently realised that mass has the dimensions of an inverse velocity so when mass goes to infinity the mass "temperature" drops to zero. The velocity of light it the correct datum for measuring the inverse of mass (which is an internal velocity just like temperature but on a finer scale). I am in the process of copying the internal BRS note which deals with this aspect from Saviour's blazelabs Yahoo site to the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo site where you will soon be able to read it. Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 14:08:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OL7l5Q016950; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OL7jB0016915; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:07:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:07:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050824210729.009b4e60 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:07:29 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:42 pm 24/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> ================================================== >> GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the >> stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted >> with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. > > My Civil Engineer coworker said that the formulas for > post stress concrete changed around this time. > Did you have something to do with that? Who knows. Perhaps my later warnings about the AGRs put the wind up someone somewhere and they thought they had better screw the safety factors up a notch or two. I would be the last person they would tell as you will understand if you real the Files section on the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo site. FG From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 14:26:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OLQ5rb028010; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:26:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OLQ4dj027989; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:26:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:26:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:25:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050824212540.IGAK28004.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > I would be the last person they would tell as you will > understand if you real the Files section on the > Beta-atmosphere Yahoo site. Yes, I am doing so. 280 kBytes per page is a bit big. You should convert them to .pdf files. And you're exactly right about the safety factor. That is the formulae which were altered. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 14:58:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OLw5S5012333; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:58:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OLw2Ee012308; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:58:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:58:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: Polymer Fuel Cell Development Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:57:39 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a8f6$d93ef450$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "While polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cells are widely considered the most promising fuel cells for portable use, their low operating temperature and consequent low efficiency have blocked their jump from promising technology to practical technology. But researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology have pinpointed a chemical that could allow PEM fuel cells to operate at a much higher temperature without moisture, potentially meaning that polymer fuel cells could be made much more cheaply than ever before and finally run at temperatures high enough to make them practical for use in cars and small electronics." The rest: http://www.physorg.com/news5994.html -john From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 15:20:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OMKETg026448; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OMKCYr026429; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:20:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:20:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050824221956.009add50 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:19:56 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:25 pm 24/08/2005 -0400, Terry wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> I would be the last person they would tell as you will >> understand if you read the Files section on the >> Beta-atmosphere Yahoo site. > > Yes, I am doing so. 280 kBytes per page is a bit big. > You should convert them to .pdf files. I intend to OCR them as a simple text file or .pdf at some point - but in view of the very controversial nature of the arguments a scan of the original documents has the advantage of showing that they were actually accepted for publication and that I'm not trying to perpetrate some elaborate troll. > And you're exactly right about the safety factor. > That is the formulae which were altered. It's nice to guess "exactly right". 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 15:34:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OMXPxa031505; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:33:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OMXMXQ031478; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:33:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:33:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430CF586.5040307 sumosound.de> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:32:38 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Acoustic Antigravity References: <20050824150508.YYRA2395.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050824150508.YYRA2395.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Here's another reference: > > http://www.crystalinks.com/levitationtibet.html > > The Bernoulli Principle applied to gravity/ZPE? Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 15:48:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OMm5PI005190; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:48:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7OMlxT2005131; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:47:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:47:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <056201c5a8fd$dbc41460$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <20050824131805.PRQD2395.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Description Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:47:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes, you can sense that the mainstream has changed their disposition towards cold fusion.nowadays. It's no longer dismissed out of hand or ignored as taboo science. They're still skeptical, often out of pure ignorance, but at least receptive to the idea of cold fusion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 9:18 AM Subject: Cold Fusion Description > Interesting that attitudes do seem to be achanging: > > http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-cold-fusion.htm > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 17:14:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7P0EKCw007805; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:14:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7P0EJAt007795; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:14:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:14:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.59.37] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:13:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050825001357.JWGL28004.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > I intend to OCR them as a simple text file or .pdf at some point - > but in view of the very controversial nature of the arguments a > scan of the original documents has the advantage of showing that > they were actually accepted for publication and that I'm not > trying to perpetrate some elaborate troll. Well, I didn't quite get all the pages downloaded before I peaked the group's bandwidth limit. What *is* a group's limit on Yahoo? I'll finish tomorrow because I want the CE department head to give me his comments. The comment regarding the 1968 safety factor change on post stressed concrete came from one of his employees. It led us to a discussion on how concrete is treated as a liquid. I introduced him to the B-atm concept and we wound up wasting two hours of company time on the discussion (4 man hours :-). He loved the vortex ring idea and overloaded on the images of the Hutchison Effect. He worked on the Cooper River Bridge project. If ever a bridge was beautiful: http://www.cooperriverbridge.org/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 19:37:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7P2bWjp026835; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:37:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7P2bU6u026809; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:37:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:37:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c5a91d$dcc8a590$8d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20050825001357.JWGL28004.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:36:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Thanks for the link on the Cooper River Bridge.. a work of art and engineering.Presume you had a hand in design hopefully. I have been saving every scrap of info on Grimer and Jones post regarding the big "B" as I name the file. awesome stuff, including the vortex ring that blew my mind. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:13 PM Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron >> From: Grimer > >> I intend to OCR them as a simple text file or .pdf at some point - >> but in view of the very controversial nature of the arguments a >> scan of the original documents has the advantage of showing that >> they were actually accepted for publication and that I'm not >> trying to perpetrate some elaborate troll. > > Well, I didn't quite get all the pages downloaded before I peaked the > group's bandwidth limit. What *is* a group's limit on Yahoo? > > I'll finish tomorrow because I want the CE department head to give me his > comments. The comment regarding the 1968 safety factor change on post > stressed concrete came from one of his employees. It led us to a > discussion on how concrete is treated as a liquid. I introduced him to > the B-atm concept and we wound up wasting two hours of company time on the > discussion (4 man hours :-). He loved the vortex ring idea and > overloaded on the images of the Hutchison Effect. > > He worked on the Cooper River Bridge project. If ever a bridge was > beautiful: > > http://www.cooperriverbridge.org/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 24 22:28:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7P5RjGG016652; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:28:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7P5Rh2T016635; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:27:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:27:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050825052726.009a8518 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 06:27:26 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: <46vlT.A.yDE.PbVDDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:13 pm 24/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: > > Well, I didn't quite get all the pages downloaded before I > peaked the group's bandwidth limit. What *is* a group's > limit on Yahoo? Dunno - It's never worried me - I'm a patient man. One has to be when one pioneers new concepts. > > I'll finish tomorrow because I want the CE department head > to give me his comments. The comment regarding the 1968 > safety factor change on post stressed concrete came from > one of his employees. It led us to a discussion on how > concrete is treated as a liquid. I introduced him to the > B-atm concept and we wound up wasting two hours of company > time on the discussion (4 man hours :-). He loved the > vortex ring idea and overloaded on the images of the > Hutchison Effect. > > He worked on the Cooper River Bridge project. > > If ever a bridge was beautiful. I agree. I like the shear leg diamond design. More sensible from an engineering point of view, than the twin towers cable stay bridge over the Thames..... http://www.colinfparsons.btinternet.co.uk/twinp/colhome/Waverley/default.htm The Thames QE2 bridge is reminiscent of the spindly Tay bridge - the original one that fell down. ============================================== Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay! Alas! I am very sorry to say That ninety lives have been taken away On the last Sabbath day of 1879, Which will be remember'd for a very long time. 'Twas about seven o'clock at night, etc., ============================================== http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/poems/pgdisaster.htm Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 00:16:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7P7Flo4015494; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:16:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7P7Fjqx015475; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:15:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:15:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050825071527.0096cf8c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:15:27 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been puzzling over how Hutchison manages to get such spectacular effects from his claimed relatively small energy input. It occurs to me that a vortex ring (VR) is a combination of a B-atm. expansion strain energy (negative energy)and a B-atm. contraction strain energy (positive energy). Come to think of it, the formation of a vortex ring is very reminiscent of what's going on in the Hilsch Tube (HT). The HT separates the Quick and the Dead 8-) The VR separates the Linear and the Transverse. Now if we are combining a positive and a negative energy we only need to supply the difference. It is as though the wheat and the cockle are at each and of a see-saw. One only had to provide a small amount of energy to divide them into quite distinct populations. Perhaps the Maxwell demon problem has been approached from the wrong end -- bottom up instead of the top down. After all, in analysing Macbeth you don't start with the letters and work upwards. You start with the whole play and work downwards. The statistical distribution of individual letters and words may be of some small interest but the psychological makeup of Lady Macbeth is far more fascinating, wouldn't you agree? 8-) Once positive and negative energy are separated then one can get energy out of each in the same way that the Stirling Engine can get energy out of hot coffee (hot infusion) on the one hand and ice blocks (CF) on the other. It is as though one is going through an ALGEBRAIC <-> ARITHMETIC velocity <-> speed cycle. Perhaps the Carnot cycle is a particular example of this more general cycle. I must really get myself a Stirling Engine capable of running on ice blocks. I'm sure I would find watching it quite inspirational. ;^) Cheers, Frank Grimer ==================================== et congregabuntur ante eum omnes gentes et separabit eos ab invicem sicut pastor segregat oves ab hedis. ==================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 08:21:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PFLBh3017137; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:21:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PFL9BL017121; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:21:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:21:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:20:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050825152047.NLBK6827.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "RC Macaulay" > Thanks for the link on the Cooper River Bridge.. a work of art and > engineering.Presume you had a hand in design hopefully. Being in communications my participation is usually limited to CCTV and other systems. My friend said that although the CRB cost two years worth of SCDOT's highway funds, it met their criteria that it be better looking than the Savannah River Bridge: http://www.roadstothefuture.com/US17_Savannah_River_Br1.jpg > I have been saving every scrap of info on Grimer and Jones post regarding > the big "B" as I name the file. awesome stuff, including the vortex ring > that blew my mind. I must admit, I never could fathom the Hutchison Effect before Grimer's vortex ring analogy. One of my favorite toys as a kid was the Air Blaster, a gun that shot vortex rings. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 08:21:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PFLOV1017239; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:21:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PFLNWl017218; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:21:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:21:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:21:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050825152101.NLEI6827.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "RC Macaulay" > Thanks for the link on the Cooper River Bridge.. a work of art and > engineering.Presume you had a hand in design hopefully. Being in communications my participation is usually limited to CCTV and other systems. My friend said that although the CRB cost two years worth of SCDOT's highway funds, it met their criteria that it be better looking than the Savannah River Bridge: http://www.roadstothefuture.com/US17_Savannah_River_Br1.jpg > I have been saving every scrap of info on Grimer and Jones post regarding > the big "B" as I name the file. awesome stuff, including the vortex ring > that blew my mind. I must admit, I never could fathom the Hutchison Effect before Grimer's vortex ring analogy. One of my favorite toys as a kid was the Air Blaster, a gun that shot vortex rings. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 08:24:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PFO2qb019215; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:24:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PFO0Jc019181; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:24:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:24:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:23:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050825152338.NMOX6827.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton Sorry for the double posts. Itchy trigger finger. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 08:30:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PFUQ4Q021606; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:30:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PFUPsV021590; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:30:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:30:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5a989$dbc23a00$8e027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20050825071527.0096cf8c pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:29:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, J_CHICKENPOX_63,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <8KbdS.A.QRF.QQeDDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote.. I've been puzzling over how Hutchison manages to get such spectacular effects from his claimed relatively small energy input. It occurs to me that a vortex ring (VR) is a combination of a B-atm. expansion strain energy (negative energy)and a B-atm. contraction strain energy (positive energy). Come to think of it, the formation of a vortex ring is very reminiscent of what's going on in the Hilsch Tube (HT). The HT separates the Quick and the Dead 8-) The VR separates the Linear and the Transverse. Frank, On a grander scale the tidal action of the seas and the four winds of earth describe the available energy for use should we be fortunate in devising a harness for applying the " differential" as Hutchinson so described his " spectacular" results. Surely forces at work are so in order to maintain a " balance" and a "harmony" in our know universe. Attempts to " unbalance" these forces are met with " resistance". Scripture states ....[ all things are held together by the power of His word]. To me, this means that order has been established. However, it does not mean we cannot put the wind energy to practical use to " sail" rather than " row", Surely or Maker has made everything in His creation for our use. Please continue to expand on the big "B" theme. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 09:13:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PGDTtX009810; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:13:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PGDRaR009788; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:13:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:13:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [OT] Intelligent Falling Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:13:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, Andreas Rathke at ESA is good and he recommended the following on ZP and BLP: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, 1996 New J. Phys. 7 127, Andreas Rathke: http://www.iop.org/EJ/njp *He is* a theoretician. Regards, R. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 10:27:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PHRLMg009627; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:27:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PHRJl5009606; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:27:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:27:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:26:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Beta-Atmosphere Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I visited the Beta-Atmosphere newsgroup on Yahoo. I noticed two familiar names, Jones Beene and Frank Grimer, and a subscribe link. I would be interested in reading more about it, but more email is not what I need. I assume that the link that someone posted with the article about the theories of Herda and Raash; on the ZPE's being responsible for inertia, was related to Beta-Atmosphere. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 10:51:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PHoOPn020994; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:50:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PHoLlb020967; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:50:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:50:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:50:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050824200632.00972ef4 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <5NvPZC.A.iHF.dTgDDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Grimer wrote: >> >> The same criticism could apply to your notions of >> negative and positive mass. > > Absolutely 8-). You are so right. 8-) > > I am using a conventional datum cos there is only so much > cognitive dissonance that people can cope with at one sitting. > > As I have pointed out in a previous post, both Ing.Saviour and > I have independently realised that mass has the dimensions of > an inverse velocity so when mass goes to infinity the mass > "temperature" drops to zero. The velocity of light it the correct > datum for measuring the inverse of mass (which is an internal > velocity just like temperature but on a finer scale). > > I am in the process of copying the internal BRS note which deals > with this aspect from Saviour's blazelabs Yahoo site to the > Beta-atmosphere Yahoo site where you will soon be able to > read it. So far Yahoo has only allowed me to download a few pages from your paper. This is just a suggestion, but it seems to me the focus of your theory should be the nature of charge instead of mass. In other words charge is an inverse velocity and not mass. I say this for two reasons. First you are concerned with the strength of materials which is an electromagnetic phenomena and secondly by choosing the velocity of light as a datum you have chosen another electromagnetic phenomena. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 14:41:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PLfCuq011293; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:41:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PLesnI011182; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:40:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:40:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D158B6 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.c om> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D158B6 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.c om> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:40:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: The Aluminium Battery Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Holy crap - and I thought 40% efficiency from the zinc air battery was >lousy. I thought that 20% efficiency was pretty bad too. > >Can a battery be made outta stuff that's highly reactive? Like aluminum >and bromine? Yes. Do a web search under aluminium battery >I guess that's the limiting factor with chemical batteries - heat. I >wonder if there's any way to reduce the heat output while pushing more >electrons? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 17:45:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7Q0j3Ym022546; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:45:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7Q0j1OH022518; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:45:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:45:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050826004443.0096a340 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:44:43 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-Atmosphere Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:48 pm 25/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> Also, I searched the site with "Herda" and got nada - so I am at a >> complete loss as to what you are on about. 8-) > >I'm sure Tom meant Haisch and Rueda. > >http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9802031 Thanks for the info. Terry. Neither of those names appear on the B-atm. Yahoo site either. Even in the Vortex archives there is only one reference to Haisch and Rueda, and this is in a post by Jones on Sat, 05 Mar 2005 where he says, =========================================================== Unlike Puthoff, Sarfatti, Haisch, Rueda, etc Don can bring his thinking, and Dirac's mathematics, down to earth in understandable English. Actually Puthoff 'can' do this as well, but seldom does. Donald's writing style is so clear and logical, that one often scarcely realizes how deep into a precise understanding of complex math that he can take you. His Dirac articles are published in 'Infinite Energy' issues 43 and 44, available at : www.infinite-energy.com www.openseti.org. This broadening of Dirac by Hotson is the only causal, *direct-contact model* of the EM field with ZPE which is out there, at least in accessible non-mathematical form. =========================================================== Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 19:32:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7Q2U9Md028844; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:32:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7Q20SmD008419; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:00:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:00:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050826010904.009bf74c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:09:04 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-Atmosphere Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:48 pm 25/08/2005 -0400, Terry wrote: >>> From: Grimer >> >>> Also, I searched the site with "Herda" and got nada - so I am at a >>> complete loss as to what you are on about. 8-) >> >>I'm sure Tom meant Haisch and Rueda. >> >>http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9802031 > > > Thanks for the info. Terry. > > Neither of those names appear on the B-atm. Yahoo site either. > > In the Vortex archives there is only one reference to > Haisch and Rueda, and this is in a post by Jones on > Sat, 05 Mar 2005. Re-reading that post, and as far as I can understand it, I would say that Jones and I are following the same star across the desert, albeit from very different starting points. Hopefully we will both eventually arrive at the same destination. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 19:55:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PKmQbm015196; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:48:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PKmPss015179; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:48:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:48:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-Atmosphere Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:48:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050825204802.ULDE6827.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > Also, I searched the site with "Herda" and got nada - so I am at a > complete loss as to what you are on about. 8-) I'm sure Tom meant Haisch and Rueda. http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9802031 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 19:55:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PJxejp030874; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:00:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PJxcsE030824; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:59:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:59:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050825195915.009bfc6c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:59:15 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron Resent-Message-ID: <-RtL5C.A.hhH.qMiDDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:50 pm 25/08/2005 -0500, Harry wrote: > So far Yahoo has only allowed me to download a few pages from your paper. I must confess I never had any problems downloading stuff from Yahoo sites. Perhaps someone was downloading stuff at the same time. If you keep having problems let me know and I will send you the relevant stuff as attachments to e-mails. This is what I did for Beene and though my line is only a 56 Jones has a fast one so it downloaded at his end like lightning. > This is just a suggestion, but it seems to me the focus of your theory > should be the nature of charge instead of mass. In other words > charge is an inverse velocity and not mass. Maybe they are both functions of velocity at different scales, eh! 8-) > I say this for two reasons. First you are concerned with the strength of > materials which is an electromagnetic phenomena and secondly by choosing the > velocity of light as a datum you have chosen another electromagnetic > phenomena. Fair point. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 19:55:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PJZGNc022816; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:35:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PJZ7lp022750; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:35:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:35:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: The Aluminium Battery Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:34:29 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D158B6 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The Aluminium Battery Thread-Index: AcWpphHTinTwX0rdQ6GTqE/V5TcqxQABTj4g From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2005 19:34:29.0543 (UTC) FILETIME=[02BE6B70:01C5A9AC] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7PJYcjG022476 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Holy crap - and I thought 40% efficiency from the zinc air battery was lousy. Can a battery be made outta stuff that's highly reactive? Like aluminum and bromine? I guess that's the limiting factor with chemical batteries - heat. I wonder if there's any way to reduce the heat output while pushing more electrons? -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com] Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 2:46 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Aluminium Battery I contacted Electropositronium. I received an executive summary and a .pdf encrypted file which shows an anode and a cathode with various sized balls in between. I assume that the balls are the nanostructures that make the system work. They also included a discussion of the amount of energy that the system could hold. It assumed an efficiency of 20%. I assume that this is because only 20% of the available aluminium reacts. Batteries get warm when they charge and discharge, but not that warm. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 19:56:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PKO1bx006653; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:24:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PKNwmI006622; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:23:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:23:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050825202332.009ce590 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:23:32 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-Atmosphere Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:26 pm 25/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I visited the Beta-Atmosphere newsgroup on Yahoo. I noticed two >familiar names, Jones Beene and Frank Grimer, and a subscribe link. I >would be interested in reading more about it, but more email is not >what I need. Nor what any of us need - I can assure you. 8-) You sound as though you are unfamiliar with the nature of Yahoo sites. I'm afraid that to get at the files you have to have a Yahoo identity (I assure you getting one is quite painless) and choose a pass-word. You then subscribe to a particular site and in the case of the B-atm site your subscription in automatically accepted. In setting up your subscription you can opt for no e-mails and once you have read what you want to you can unsubscribe yourself from the group - and also from Yahoo itself if you are that worried - not that I have ever noticed Yahoo sending me any mail other than from the groups I have both subscribed to and asked of mail. >I assume that the link that someone posted with the article about the >theories of Herda and Raash; on the ZPE's being responsible for >inertia, was related to Beta-Atmosphere. That sounds like some of Yahoo's advertising to me. It ain't anything to do with the Beta-atmosphere. If you click on the B-atm links section in the left hand column you will see that it is empty. Also, I searched the site with "Herda" and got nada - so I am at a complete loss as to what you are on about. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 19:56:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PIkTl2006665; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:46:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PIkSrm006644; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:46:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:46:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:45:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: BLP on the IOP website Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone posted the following URL, http://www.iop.org/EJ/njp . The post intimated that the webmaster was mentioning BLP on the website. I visited the website and failed to notice any mention of BLP. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 19:56:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7PIkqfK006796; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:47:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7PIkoOK006766; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:46:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:46:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:45:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The Aluminium Battery Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I contacted Electropositronium. I received an executive summary and a .pdf encrypted file which shows an anode and a cathode with various sized balls in between. I assume that the balls are the nanostructures that make the system work. They also included a discussion of the amount of energy that the system could hold. It assumed an efficiency of 20%. I assume that this is because only 20% of the available aluminium reacts. Batteries get warm when they charge and discharge, but not that warm. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 25 21:21:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7Q4LCSH002897; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:21:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7Q4LAtI002873; Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:21:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:21:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: OFF topic but important Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:20:44 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5a9f5$890931d0$6401a8c0 eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <430B4C89.8070607 ix.netcom.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7Q4Krnm002744 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, If you believe the government (whomever is in office) can come clean about anything you have an idealistic viewpoint. It's all strategic positioning. The public is sold a story it can swallow. The world is not shown the cards in our hand. We invaded Iraq to get out of Saudia Arabia. We wanted regional capability to protect an energy supply and give us leverage over other countries. Also, it painted a big red target for future attacks away from US soil. Saddam picked the short straw because he was easiest to build a bad-guy case against. We knew about the WMD and the military capability he had because WE gave the technology and sold him the weapon systems to fight Iran. We also knew that capability was non-existent but dormant and waiting for any opportunity and in-flux of cash. France, Germany, and Russia did not object because of moral high ground, they objected because they were Saddam's biggest creditors and customers. If he went down, they wouldn't get paid. Worse yet, the US would be calling the shots on their fuel lines. Oil prices are going up because that is one key source of money for funding Iraq... An indirect tax that does not need to get voted on or debated. As for the dollar, it's being allowed to devalue to address trade deficits and indirectly attack China for pegging their economy to it. It is a play thing, not a true metric of the heath or capability of the US. It's all strategic positioning, economic and military. You will NEVER be told the game plan. I sincerely doubt even the president knows it all... Some elements of the government never change with/by elections. -john (the cynic) -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:19 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF topic but important Dear Tom, I don't want to get into a pointless and fruitless debate. However, our country is in serious trouble, not just because of the Iraq war. Unless voters look beyond the propaganda used by the government and accept some basic principles based on truth, we all are going to pay a very high price. You might reject this warning as personal ravings of a liberal or of the uninformed. Nevertheless, I strongly suggest you read "The Demise of the Dollar" by Addison Wiggin to understand the financial issues. You only need to follow the Iraq war on TV to know enough about that sorry issue to be very concerned. These are only two of the many issues you need to understand before you can properly evaluate our leaders and know where they are taking us all, both conservatives and liberals. Everyone wants to trust our president and the government. Everyone wants to believe that we as a nation are doing the right thing. Many people want to believe that our affluence will continue and be a testament to our Christian beliefs. However, what happens when the leadership leads us away from these goals and lies about their actions? What happens when the goals of the leadership are different from the goals of ordinary people? When this happens in a democracy, the leaders are voted out of office or are impeached. Unfortunately, most people do not know what is happening because they are blinded by such arguments as you use below. Consider the facts. The reasons Bush used to attack Iraq have been shown to be wrong - no WMD, no relationship to 9/11, no terrorists in Iraq, and no nuclear weapons program. After he attacked, the results were not what he expected - no friendly welcome, no extra oil for our use, and no increased stability in the region. Because of his ignorance, insufficient troops were sent in spite of warnings by the generals. As a result, the country is on the brink of civil war, thousands of our troops have been killed or injured, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, the infrastructure of the country has collapsed, and the area has become a training ground for more terrorists. I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept? How much support do you want to give a government that shows an inability to deal with reality on a grand scale? How high a price are you willing to pay to achieve the goals the government is pursuing? Are you willing to have your loved ones die? Are you willing to have your kids educated in poorer schools or have no medical care because the money is used to blowup Iraq? The government says that if we don't do this, we will experience even worse in the future. What if they are wrong? We were given the same kind of arguments about why we could not withdraw from Vietnam - if we did all of Southeast Asia would become communist, the so called domino effect. This did not happen. We were told that objecting to the war was giving comfort to the enemy and putting our troops at risk. We were kicked out not because the antiwar people gave comfort but because our leaders underestimated the strength and determination of the North Vietnamese. Over 50,000 of our youth died because our leaders were wrong that time. How many are you willing to die to prove how wrong they are this time? How many lies must be told before you withdraw your trust? I suggest you answer these questions because your future will depend on your answers. Regards, Ed thomas malloy wrote: > The following paragraphs were sent to me by Grassfire.org . They do a > good job of setting out the other side of the argument. > > It is now clear that MoveOn.org and radical peace groups are using > Cindy Sheehan and Crawford, Texas, as their staging area for a > nationwide anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-troops movement. > > Let's be clear -- these groups are using Mrs. Sheehan to > push their radical agenda, undermine our President and ultimately > weaken the war effort and put our troops at risk. > > IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss this matter. The administration > is politically unable to cut and run, even if they wanted to, and they > don't. > > Then there is the other email I received which talked about how there > hasn't been a terrorist attack on America since 9/11. Is this a > coincidence? I don't think so. We're speaking to them in the language > that they understand, force. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 01:09:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7Q89NYn000937; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:09:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7Q89LhH000922; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:09:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:09:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430ECE19.3070408 sumosound.de> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:08:57 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Aluminium Battery References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D158B6 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D158B6 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > Holy crap - and I thought 40% efficiency from the zinc air battery was > lousy. > > Can a battery be made outta stuff that's highly reactive? Like aluminum > and bromine? > > I guess that's the limiting factor with chemical batteries - heat. I > wonder if there's any way to reduce the heat output while pushing more > electrons? Moin Chris, Check out Ken Susslick's work with NiMH at the U of Chicago. He was making some pretty outrageous claims for his micropowders. Last I looked, he had not yet made any deals with a manufacturer, but that may have changed. It looks like some of the manufacturers are beginning to come up with solutions to the electrode problems. That may have been what was hindering the progress with Susslick, I don't know. Knuke Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 01:13:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7Q8D20t002401; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:13:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7Q8D1T9002359; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:13:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:13:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: BLP on the IOP website + ZPE Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:12:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: TM and Vo, New J. Phys. 7 127, Andreas Rathke: http://www.iop.org/EJ/njp Put the name "Rathke" or the article number in the search box and you will find the paper. The mathematics of BLP is egregiously wrong and fails to account for existing phenomena. You can't build on a house of straw... Regarding ZPE, it is built on a false premise too and you can do any fancy amount of maths but if the phenomena do not exist... "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, 1996 R. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of thomas malloy Sent: 25 August 2005 19:46 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: BLP on the IOP website Someone posted the following URL, http://www.iop.org/EJ/njp . The post intimated that the webmaster was mentioning BLP on the website. I visited the website and failed to notice any mention of BLP. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 01:59:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7Q8wa59017887; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:58:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7Q8wYOc017848; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:58:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:58:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Good cop, bad cop Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:58:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, In the name of progress, we should challenge these people - impartially, Randi style. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4183916.stm So that applies to ZP, BLP, CF... Real scientists show their workings (when they are ready) and where they are headed. R. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 06:03:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QD2t3M027636; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:03:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QD2rhP027620; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:02:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:02:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: OFF topic but important Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 9:02:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050826130231.BJBU17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Steck" > It's all strategic positioning, economic and military. You will NEVER be > told the game plan. I sincerely doubt even the president knows it all... > Some elements of the government never change with/by elections. > > -john (the cynic) You may be a cynic; but, you've pegged the situation. You only left out Afganistan where we took control of the heroin market and made way for the pipeline. As long as energy is not free we will all be slaves to Money. Money, get away. Get a good job with good pay and you’re okay. >Money, it’s a gas.< Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash. New car, caviar, four star daydream, Think I’ll buy me a football team. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 06:07:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QD6SXL029382; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:06:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QD6Rjf029360; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:06:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:06:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: BLP on the IOP website + ZPE Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 9:06:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050826130605.BKIU17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: R.O.Cornwall > Regarding ZPE, it is built on a false premise too and you can do any fancy > amount of maths but if the phenomena do not exist... If ZPE does not exist how do you explain the Casimir Effect and the behavior of BEC? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 06:58:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QDw94Y020358; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:58:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QDw4Qm020318; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:58:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:58:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20050826135738865.D33869400083 mwinf3209.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050826135740.009a9aa0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:57:40 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-Atmosphere Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It struck me last night that the Hutchison effect on materials was not unlike a large scale action of one of Ken Shoulders' strong electron objects (EVOs). So I started to look for any evidence that an EVO might simply be a micro Hutchison Vortex Ring (HVR). Thanks to the power of the Internet it didn't take me long to find what I wanted. Consider the following extract from the second document of Ken Shouders'Index: ============================================= http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ --------------------------------------------- In the lingo of charge cluster technology, a strike is what an EV does when it hits a target. The effects produced can be very dramatic if the conditions are right. One mystery that had to be resolved early on is the difference between a spark and an EV. It was found that there is none. A spark is simply the visible, ionized gas trail left by an EV, although in some sparks the EV is so weak that it is barely detectable in the trash surrounding it. Every spark made has an EV running out in front of it. In addition, the EV has electron feelers running ahead of it to tell it what to do. ============================================= Now a spark is essentially a mini-lightning strike so perhaps Shoulders' "electron feelers" are running towards the EV rather than away from it as the following excerpt from Wiki suggests. =========================================== http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning ------------------------------------------- During the strike, successive portions of air become conductive as the electrons and positive ions of air molecules are pulled away from each other and forced to flow in opposite directions (stepped channels called step leaders). The conductive filament grows in length. At the same time, electrical energy stored in the e-field flows radially inward into the conductive filament. =========================================== Now viewing the lightning as a Beta-atmosphere jet, or even a jet within as sleeve as I seem to remember mentioning in relation to tornadoes in an earlier post, then one can see lighting as a linear Vortex. It is not difficult to imagine such a structure generating or breaking up into vortex rings. Indeed, remembering the days when I was an avid reader of children's comics, the exhaust stream of the hero's motorbike was always accompanied by a few vortex rings. 8-) Since Tesla very probably discovered the Hutchison's-Shoulders effect many moons ago, perhaps it should be called the Tesla-HUchison's-Shoulders or THUS effect, eh! 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 07:26:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QEQ2nA002214; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:26:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QEPx3C002179; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:25:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:25:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Beta-Atmosphere Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:25:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050826142538.CPVS17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <_YY5M.A._h.3ZyDDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Grimer > It is not difficult to imagine such a structure > generating or breaking up into vortex rings. Maybe that's ball lightning. My toy vortex gun, the Whammo Air Blaster: http://www.octanecreative.com/boomerbaby/toys/index.html (2/3rds down the page) had a tapered barrel to increase the velocity of the ring by reducing the diameter. How would we emulate this with B-atm. Wait a minute, this sounds like we're designing weapons. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 08:02:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QF1wxw017064; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:02:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QF1qYo017020; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:01:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:01:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <430F2F0B.6060702 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:02:35 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF topic but important References: <000001c5a9f5$890931d0$6401a8c0 eDentsply.com> In-Reply-To: <000001c5a9f5$890931d0$6401a8c0 eDentsply.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > Ed, > If you believe the government (whomever is in office) can come clean about > anything you have an idealistic viewpoint. It's all strategic positioning. > The public is sold a story it can swallow. The world is not shown the cards > in our hand. Well John, I agree with you that the general public is seldom given the truth. However, I do not agree that the truth is completely hidden. For a grand policy to be implemented 10s of thousands of people must buy into the idea at many levels of government. For this to happen, the plan must be carefully laid out in detail. This was done in a white paper by the so called neoconservatives. The plan is clear and is being implemented. Unfortunately for the grand planners, the lies used to get public support are bringing the plan down, a process that always happens when a plan is not based on reality. > > We invaded Iraq to get out of Saudia Arabia. We wanted regional capability > to protect an energy supply and give us leverage over other countries. > Also, it painted a big red target for future attacks away from US soil. > Saddam picked the short straw because he was easiest to build a bad-guy case > against. We knew about the WMD and the military capability he had because > WE gave the technology and sold him the weapon systems to fight Iran. We > also knew that capability was non-existent but dormant and waiting for any > opportunity and in-flux of cash. France, Germany, and Russia did not object > because of moral high ground, they objected because they were Saddam's > biggest creditors and customers. If he went down, they wouldn't get paid. > Worse yet, the US would be calling the shots on their fuel lines. Oil > prices are going up because that is one key source of money for funding > Iraq... An indirect tax that does not need to get voted on or debated. I agree with some of what you propose. In any case, the arguments were based on a very poor understanding of the situation and the consequences. In brief, the planners were totally incompetent. > > As for the dollar, it's being allowed to devalue to address trade deficits > and indirectly attack China for pegging their economy to it. It is a play > thing, not a true metric of the heath or capability of the US. I suggest the trade deficit is the cause of the dollar's devaluation, not the other way around. The trade deficit is caused by the US customers having too much money, based on too low an interest rate, and because the US moved much of its manufacturing ability over seas. The government should have raised taxes rather than lowering them and should have kept interest rate high rather than lowering them. This would have produced a minor depression rather than a disaster. Once again, we are at the mercy of incompetence. > > It's all strategic positioning, economic and military. You will NEVER be > told the game plan. I sincerely doubt even the president knows it all... > Some elements of the government never change with/by elections. Ed (not as cynical but just as disgusted) > > -john (the cynic) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:19 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: OFF topic but important > > > Dear Tom, > > I don't want to get into a pointless and fruitless debate. However, our > country is in serious trouble, not just because of the Iraq war. Unless > voters look beyond the propaganda used by the government and accept some > basic principles based on truth, we all are going to pay a very high > price. You might reject this warning as personal ravings of a liberal > or of the uninformed. Nevertheless, I strongly suggest you read "The > Demise of the Dollar" by Addison Wiggin to understand the financial > issues. You only need to follow the Iraq war on TV to know enough about > that sorry issue to be very concerned. These are only two of the many > issues you need to understand before you can properly evaluate our > leaders and know where they are taking us all, both conservatives and > liberals. > > Everyone wants to trust our president and the government. Everyone > wants to believe that we as a nation are doing the right thing. Many > people want to believe that our affluence will continue and be a > testament to our Christian beliefs. However, what happens when the > leadership leads us away from these goals and lies about their actions? > What happens when the goals of the leadership are different from the > goals of ordinary people? When this happens in a democracy, the leaders > are voted out of office or are impeached. Unfortunately, most people do > not know what is happening because they are blinded by such arguments as > you use below. > > Consider the facts. > > The reasons Bush used to attack Iraq have been shown to be wrong - no > WMD, no relationship to 9/11, no terrorists in Iraq, and no nuclear > weapons program. After he attacked, the results were not what he > expected - no friendly welcome, no extra oil for our use, and no > increased stability in the region. Because of his ignorance, > insufficient troops were sent in spite of warnings by the generals. As > a result, the country is on the brink of civil war, thousands of our > troops have been killed or injured, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have > been killed, the infrastructure of the country has collapsed, and the > area has become a training ground for more terrorists. > > I ask you, how much incompetence are you willing to accept? How much > support do you want to give a government that shows an inability to deal > with reality on a grand scale? How high a price are you willing to pay > to achieve the goals the government is pursuing? Are you willing to > have your loved ones die? Are you willing to have your kids educated in > poorer schools or have no medical care because the money is used to > blowup Iraq? The government says that if we don't do this, we will > experience even worse in the future. What if they are wrong? We were > given the same kind of arguments about why we could not withdraw from > Vietnam - if we did all of Southeast Asia would become communist, the so > called domino effect. This did not happen. We were told that objecting > to the war was giving comfort to the enemy and putting our troops at > risk. We were kicked out not because the antiwar people gave comfort but > because our leaders underestimated the strength and determination of the > North Vietnamese. Over 50,000 of our youth died because our leaders > were wrong that time. How many are you willing to die to prove how > wrong they are this time? How many lies must be told before you withdraw > your trust? I suggest you answer these questions because your future > will depend on your answers. > > Regards, > Ed > > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > >>The following paragraphs were sent to me by Grassfire.org . They do a >>good job of setting out the other side of the argument. >> >>It is now clear that MoveOn.org and radical peace groups are using >>Cindy Sheehan and Crawford, Texas, as their staging area for a >>nationwide anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-troops movement. >> >>Let's be clear -- these groups are using Mrs. Sheehan to >>push their radical agenda, undermine our President and ultimately >>weaken the war effort and put our troops at risk. >> >>IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss this matter. The administration >>is politically unable to cut and run, even if they wanted to, and they >>don't. >> >>Then there is the other email I received which talked about how there >>hasn't been a terrorist attack on America since 9/11. Is this a >>coincidence? I don't think so. We're speaking to them in the language >>that they understand, force. >> >> > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 08:16:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QFFUWU023430; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:15:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QFFRYn023387; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:15:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:15:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050826151502.009be55c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:15:02 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Beta-Atmosphere Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:25 am 26/08/2005 -0400, Terry wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> It is not difficult to imagine such a structure >> generating or breaking up into vortex rings. > > Maybe that's ball lightning. I suspect that a ring vortex may be the precursor to a ball on the basis that a ball has the maximum volume per unit surface area thereby representing a terminus for all other shapes. >My toy vortex gun, the Whammo Air Blaster: > >http://www.octanecreative.com/boomerbaby/toys/index.html > > (2/3rds down the page) had a tapered barrel to > increase the velocity of the ring by reducing > the diameter. How would we emulate this with > B-atm. Not merely tapered, Terry. The barrel looks like a Vortexian Alpha-aether weapon 8-). Maybe it has spiral rifling on the inside as well to give the air a spin and thereby increase the stability of the vortex rings as they traverse the 30 feet specified on the box. >Wait a minute, this sounds like we're designing weapons. :-) Well, aren't we? This is beginning to remind me of the Flight of the Phoenix. Mind you, the latest film doesn't compare with the 1965 version. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 08:47:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QFks4L006060; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:47:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QFkrBO006043; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:46:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:46:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Sing the Universe Electric Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:46:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050826154632.DVDY17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Supernova 1987A observations cause a drastic change in cosmology: http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=re6qxnz1 "Since Bruce, and following the pioneering work of Hannes Alfven on an electric circuit model of stars, it has become clear to plasma cosmologists that the electrical z-pinch effect is instrumental in forming stars. Once formed, stars continue to be lit by electrical power delivered throughout the universe by cosmic transmission lines known as Birkeland current filaments. These giant filaments can be traced by their radio transmissions. Stars also trace the Birkeland currents in galaxies in the same way that electric streetlights trace the routes of electrical cables." A long but "shocking" article. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 09:18:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QGI4rq020553; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:18:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QGI2xX020530; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:18:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:18:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Birkeland Current Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:17:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050826161738.EGSU17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.holoscience.com/news/balloon.html "There has been one crucial name missing from the earlier list of Nobel Prize winners. He was on the point of being nominated for a Nobel Prize when he died. Kristian Olaf Bernhard Birkeland (1867-1917) was the founder of experimental astrophysics. Note the crucial adjective "experimental" as distinct from modern theoretical astrophysics. He studied under Poincaré and Hertz and was a professor at Oslo University at the age of 31. Wealth and fame accompanied his many achievements in technology and applied physics. Birkeland was the good guy in a 50-year dispute involving the idea that electrons streaming along magnetic field lines caused the Earth's auroras. His opponent was the astronomer Sydney Chapman who maintained that the Earth moved through a vacuum. In 1974 space probes found in Birkeland's favour. Chapman and others then promptly made space plasma superconducting, which relieved them from the complications of dealing with electric fields. Birkeland actually demonstrated his theory long before in an experiment called a "terrella." It consisted of an electromagnet contained within a sphere and placed in a large vacuum chamber. By initiating an electric discharge in the chamber he was able to reproduce a light show with many of the odd features of auroras. The importance of this simple experiment cannot be overstated because it demonstrates that aurorae and lightning seem to require an electrical power source external to the Earth! That would explain the puzzle raised by Bering: "The charge that produces sprites is not below in the cloud, it's in the mesosphere itself." The Electric Universe model suggests that the Earth plays a cathode role in the Sun's discharge and therefore is in the business of supplying negative electrons to space and receiving positive ions from the solar wind. It is interesting therefore that the presence of solar wind ions inside the earth's magnetosphere has puzzled scientists. Thunderstorms are not electricity generators, they are passive elements in an interplanetary circuit, like a self-repairing leaky condenser. The energy stored in the cloud "condenser" is released as lightning when it short-circuits. The short-circuits can occur either within the cloud or across the external resistive paths to Earth or the ionosphere. The charge across the cloud "condenser" gives rise to violent vertical electrical winds within the cloud, not vice versa. By creating a short-circuit to high altitudes in the storm the lightning effectively "throws the switch" connected to the glow discharge "tube" in the upper atmosphere. It then makes perfect sense that the much taller positive cloud-to-ground discharge will be more effective at providing power to the glow discharge than will low-level negative cloud-to-ground lightning because the circuit resistance is lower. Ultimately, lightning on Earth is driven by electric power focused on the Sun but minutely intercepted by the Earth. So lightning on Earth is a pale imitation of what is happening on the Sun. It is not surprising, therefore, that it took a man who was an electrical researcher, astronomer, and expert on the effects of lightning, Dr. Charles E. R. Bruce of the Electrical Research Association in England, to recognize the fact. That was in 1941! Such is the inertia of science." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 11:54:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QIrjnp026005; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:54:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QIrhT1025982; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:53:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:53:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050826141948.045de5f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:52:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Prius hybrid car performance test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I took a vacation, driving from tlanta to Gettysburg in a new Toyota Prius. I kept track of the fuel consumption and mileage. The trip was 1872 miles, and total fuel consumption was 39 gallons. That's 48 mpg average. However, consumption varied quite a bit. I refuelled 5 times, and mileage varied from 42 to 53 mpg for the different batches of fuel. I used only premium gasoline. I do not know whether this helps boost mileage significantly, but I wanted to measure optimum performance. Note that the Prius has a 12 gallon tank, giving it a 600 mile range on the highway. The fuel gauge is electronic, with 10 illuminated dots to indicate a full tank. Each dot should represent 1.2 gallons (or 60 miles of highway driving), but that does not appear to be the case. It seems the sensor does not work well when the tank is full, because the first dot does not turn off until you drive 100 to 200 miles, then the others turn off every 50 miles or so. The onboard computer reports miles-per-gallon for the 5-minute segments. I had some doubts about it, but it seems to be accurate. Here is a picture of the display, from an earlier model of the car: http://john1701a.com/prius/photos/PriusConsumption_CloseUp.jpg The best performance was when we drove 50 miles through the back roads of Frederick county, Maryland at 25 to 35 mph. The computer indicated 60 to 75 mpg for several 5 minute segments. Non-stop driving at ~30 mph over small, gentle hills seems to be the optimum condition. I noted that the battery consistently charged on the downhill segments and discharged steadily on the uphill segments, as you would expect. The car is officially rated at 60 / 50 mpg (60 mpg in city driving), but I have generally been getting much less in the city; around 42 mpg. My guess is that the "city" rating is produced by driving the car at city speeds, but without all of the stopping and starting. I suppose it is difficult to reproduce city driving consistently for many different car models, so the test conditions are idealized. We drove 60 miles on the Skyline Drive, in Virginia. The speed limit there is 35 mph, and the hills are steep and long. The scenery is spectacular, but while my wife was driving I usually ignored it and concentrated on the computer display instead. Efficiency was nowhere near as good as it was in Maryland, with the smaller hills. On the downhill segments, the battery often saturated before we reached the bottom. On uphill segments, I never saw it fully discharge. In fact I was surprised to see that it often started charging in the middle of the uphill segment, even when the car was not perceptively slowing down. It sometimes rapidly flipped back and forth between charging and discharging. Clearly, a larger battery would improve performance in mountainous country. The hills really are long and steep. Coming down from Skyline Drive, we drove behind an old delivery truck. Halfway down the mountain, acrid thick white smoke began to pour out of its brakes. The driver ignored the smoke and went on to a town. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 14:01:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QL0vLC020261; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:01:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QL0tC0020238; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:00:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:00:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Qu90DDqRVD/+fRgVGZChf5KH77XgppNJjAwwpynVHL/ftmlgym8fsPydr405yq7x; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200585262111630 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 26, 2005 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:01:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8a638439f1e418903c6ea51c36662c832f2c98678957fd5f6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.64.154 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 8/26/2005 1:44:44 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 26, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 26 Aug 05 Washington, DC 1. THE WAR: SENATE LEADER JOINS PRESIDENT ON INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Back before he began humming Hail to the Chief to himself as he walked the Capitol halls, Bill Frist headed the bipartisan Senate S&T Caucus http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN97/wn021497.html, and pushed for increased science funding. Recently, he reversed his opposition to stem cell research, supporting it despite strong opposition by the President. Bush said he believes "human life is a gift from our Creator." Some scientists saw Frist's action as a calculated move to demonstrate independence. Although Frist had never voted in an election prior to running for the Senate, he does know how to count votes, and he knows there are a lot more born-again Christians in this country than scientists. Friday, Bill Frist, sided with the President on intelligent design, calling for teaching it in science class with evolution. 2. THE MIRACLE STUDY: COLUMBIA PRAYS THE SCANDAL WILL GO AWAY. The prayers aren't working. Bruce Flamm, MD, Clinical Professor at the U. of California, Irvine Medical Center, is the reason http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn060404.html. A 2001 study from Columbia University Medical School, published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal, reported in-vitro fertilization was twice as likely to result in pregnancy if patients were prayed for without their knowledge by total strangers halfway around the world. WN gently explained that they must be crazy http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN01/wn100501.htm. Bruce Flamm dug deeper, publishing his findings in Sci. Rev. Alt. Med. In four years he has not let up. Under pressure from the Dean, the lead author, Dr. Rogerio Lobo, has removed his name from the study. Another author, a notorious scam artist, is in jail on separate fraud charges. The University has never retracted or apologized for the study, but has now told the journal to remove all links to Columbia. Maybe an intelligent eraser could help. 3. FREEDOM TO READ: FBI DEMANDS LIBRARY RECORDS UNDER PATRIOT ACT On 5 Sep 86, WN broke the story of the FBI's infamous Library Awareness Program. Agents had asked the physics librarian at the U. of Maryland for circulation records of "persons with Russian- sounding names." The librarian refused. It took the ACLU and the American Library Association years to get Library Awareness stopped. Now we learn that the FBI is at it again, demanding circulation records from a Connecticut library under the Patriot Act. Because the PA prevents public disclosure concerning such demands, little information is available. In the 80's, hundreds of critics of the program were the subject of FBI checks. 4. HOMEOPATHY: IT DOESN'T WORK. BUT DIDN'T WE ALREADY KNOW THAT? A study at the University of Berne, reported in Lancet, compar 110 trials each of homeopathy and conventional medicine and found benefits attributed to homeopathy were merely placebo effects. The editors of Lancet called for an end to further investment in research on homeopathy, and for doctors to be honest with their patients about homeopathy's lack of benefits. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 14:05:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QL4WSJ021560; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:04:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QL4U6s021539; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:04:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:04:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4onoosro6ybPaI4cfhGuciAGyuX727YeS7OscJnxrUSX9515glzjUlISArezboKvt9SGvp+O8ZPB93jZh3MF+sa4Gww5CnulbiCxJ4whPwFbY8fAidiiIEIIIgJIdnA2AKEIILgwgq1IrlJoJmiObpsj0Jz7HogPSSRb01wxOHA= ; Message-ID: <20050826210358.95179.qmail web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Beta-Atmosphere To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050826004443.0096a340 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Also, I referenced them and Puthoff when I pointed out the link between B-A and mass, their recent paper links gravitational and inertial mass to the ZPF, which is analogous to the B-A --- Grimer wrote: > At 04:48 pm 25/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: > >> From: Grimer > > > >> Also, I searched the site with "Herda" and got > nada - so I am at a > >> complete loss as to what you are on about. 8-) > > > >I'm sure Tom meant Haisch and Rueda. > > > >http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9802031 > > > Thanks for the info. Terry. > > Neither of those names appear on the B-atm. Yahoo > site either. > > Even in the Vortex archives there is only one > reference to > Haisch and Rueda, and this is in a post by Jones on > Sat, 05 Mar 2005 where he says, > > > =========================================================== > Unlike Puthoff, Sarfatti, Haisch, Rueda, etc Don > can bring > his thinking, and Dirac's mathematics, down to > earth in > understandable English. Actually Puthoff 'can' do > this as > well, but seldom does. Donald's writing style is > so clear > and logical, that one often scarcely realizes how > deep into > a precise understanding of complex math that he > can take > you. His Dirac articles are published in > 'Infinite Energy' > issues 43 and 44, available at : > www.infinite-energy.com > www.openseti.org. > This broadening of Dirac by Hotson is the only > causal, > *direct-contact model* of the EM field with ZPE > which is out > there, at least in accessible non-mathematical > form. > > =========================================================== > > Frank > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 14:20:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QLKNLY026890; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:20:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QLKKMX026863; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:20:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:20:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Prius hybrid car performance test Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:17:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050826211728.ILDI17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell >I used only premium > gasoline. I do not know whether this helps boost mileage significantly, but > I wanted to measure optimum performance. The Prius engine was designed for 87 octane fuel. You could trigger an emissions sensor alert using premium (check engine light). The Prius engine uses the Atkinson cycle which actually benefits from faster burning, lower octane fuel. Nix the premium. You're damaging your ROI. http://www.hybridcars.com/discussion/discussthread.php?thread_id=81&replies=4 > seems the sensor does > not work well when the tank is full, This is likely because of the float mechanism. It probably pegs before the tank is full. It takes forever for my Echo to gauge to come off "Full". Speaking of ROI, payback between the Echo and Prius comes at about 68,000 miles (40 mpg vs. 50 mpg $17,000 delta) at $2.50 per gallon. Of course, the Prius is nicer! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 14:22:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QLLMrP027236; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QLLKPr027215; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050826171345.045c3290 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:18:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 26, 2005 In-Reply-To: <410-2200585262111630 ix.netcom.com> References: <410-2200585262111630 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Park wrote: > 4. HOMEOPATHY: IT DOESN'T WORK. BUT DIDN'T WE ALREADY KNOW THAT? > A study at the University of Berne, reported in Lancet, compar > 110 trials each of homeopathy and conventional medicine and found > benefits attributed to homeopathy were merely placebo effects. The placebo effect does not exist. It was a complete crock, really, dreamed up with imaginary numbers back in the 1950s. But we knew that already, didn't we? That was reported in the New England Journal of Medicine and the New York Times with great fanfare in 2001. See: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/344/21/1594?view=abstractpmid=11372012 The fact that Robert Park still believes it exists shows that: 1. He does not examine his own beliefs or look for evidence to support them. 2. He does not keep up with the literature. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 14:44:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QLhQYn004002; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:43:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QLhLXv003972; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:43:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:43:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: "Peak Oil" Enters Mainstream Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:42:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050826214259.ITJS17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4077802.stm 'Peak oil' enters mainstream debate By Adam Porter In Perpignan, France Is global oil production reaching a peak? A few years ago only a handful of geologists and academics were considering such a possibility. But now it appears even governments are taking a serious look at the subject. The question is occupying more and more minds around the world. It could happen soon. A French government report on the global oil industry forecasts a possible peak in world production as early as 2013. Don't mention it The report 'The Oil Industry 2004' takes a long look at future production and supply issues. But perhaps what is most interesting about this Economics, Industry & Finance Ministry report, is that it actually mentions a possible production plateau at all. Even one year ago it was unheard of to find the subject mentioned amongst government ministries or financial institutions. Now banks such as Goldman Sachs, Caisse D'Epargne/Ixis, Simmons International and the Bank of Montreal have all broached the subject. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 14:56:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QLuABs008643; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:56:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QLu8ID008633; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:56:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:56:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050826172636.045e6ce0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:55:33 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Prius hybrid car performance test In-Reply-To: <20050826211728.ILDI17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050826211728.ILDI17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > >I used only premium > > gasoline. I do not know whether this helps boost mileage significantly, > but > > I wanted to measure optimum performance. > >The Prius engine was designed for 87 octane fuel. You could trigger an >emissions sensor alert using premium (check engine light). Ah, well, then it is a good thing they do not even have "super" premium high octane fuel in rural gas stations. I should read the manual more carefully. > > seems the sensor does > > not work well when the tank is full, > >This is likely because of the float mechanism. It probably pegs before >the tank is full. No doubt. The analog fuel gauge in my Geo Metro goes measurably above the "F" mark when the tank is full, or overfilled. That's something you don't see with a digital instrument! >Speaking of ROI, payback between the Echo and Prius comes at about 68,000 >miles (40 mpg vs. 50 mpg $17,000 delta) at $2.50 per gallon. Of course, >the Prius is nicer! Yup. Also bigger and considerably safer. As I mentioned, it has airbags galore and anti-slip programming for the steering wheel. I triggered that when driving over loose gravel, grass and mud. The one thing this car is not good for, by the way, is off-road driving. It has about 6 inches clearance underneath, so I drove at a walking pace, slower than a tractor. (Nobody in his right mind drives off-road the way they show in TV ads, bashing through rivers and mud. I suppose that would be like a demolition derby, and they would scoop up the car with a coal shovel at the end of the day.) It is ironic that there are hundreds of thousands of SUVs and four-wheel-drive cars in Atlanta, and I am practically the only middle-class person in the whole city who actually could use one a couple times a year when visiting my country cousins. But I would never buy one! It is a matter of principle. My sister has a 4-wheel drive Outback, I think it is, which is handy in the middle of nowhere in Virginia when it snows. I drove it to the lower field to pick up firewood. It is remarkable -- like a tractor. Around 1965 my dad drove a white International Harvester pickup truck, which was like a tin can inside, with vibrating steel plates, noisy as all get-out. My mother called it "The Reactor." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 16:33:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7QNXNiq011464; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:33:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7QNXLpX011438; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:33:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:33:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vhmp$17g16sg mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,145,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1325439888:sNHT16675220" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: Subject: Re: Prius hybrid car performance test Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:32:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I was looking at the JPG graphic and I was wondering what those yellow diamond shaped symbols with the "E" in the middle mean? There's no explanation on the graphic. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 18:47:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7R1kfpN031033; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:46:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7R1kd2Z031017; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:46:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:46:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c5aaa9$1cdd7e80$8c027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Sing the Universe Electric Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:46:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AA7F.33857540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <6u5DIC.A.kkH._X8DDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AA7F.33857540 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5AA7F.33857540" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5AA7F.33857540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankTerry wrote... http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=3Dre6qxnz1 "Since Bruce, and following the pioneering work of Hannes Alfven on an = electric circuit model of stars, it has become clear to plasma = cosmologists that the electrical z-pinch effect is instrumental in = forming stars. Once formed, stars continue to be lit by electrical power = delivered throughout the universe by cosmic transmission lines known as = Birkeland current filaments. These giant filaments can be traced by = their radio transmissions. Stars also trace the Birkeland currents in = galaxies in the same way that electric streetlights trace the routes of = electrical cables." Terry, thanks for posting the link. An interesting comment made down the = long descriptive report=20 stated ,, " each pair formation is a Vortex that becomes increasingly = complex " On a side note, my 7 year old youngest grandson, a child prodigy, has = been fascinated with astronomy since he started using his own computer = at age 2 1/2. I send him the links and enjoy his comments. He is now in = the 5th.. err.. maybe 8th grade.. who knows. Fortunately his father = recognized his remarkable gifts soon after birth and devotes quality = time to working with him. What is surprising is that there are so many = of these gifted young children in Houston, all enrolled in special class = programs. Gives one hope for the future. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5AA7F.33857540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Terry wrote...

http://ww= w.holoscience.com/news.php?article=3Dre6qxnz1

"Since=20 Bruce, and following the pioneering work of Hannes Alfven on an electric = circuit=20 model of stars, it has become clear to plasma cosmologists that the = electrical=20 z-pinch effect is instrumental in forming stars. Once formed, stars = continue to=20 be lit by electrical power delivered throughout the universe by cosmic=20 transmission lines known as Birkeland current filaments. These giant = filaments=20 can be traced by their radio transmissions. Stars also trace the = Birkeland=20 currents in galaxies in the same way that electric streetlights trace = the routes=20 of electrical cables."

Terry, thanks for posting the link. An interesting comment made down = the long=20 descriptive report

stated ,, " each pair formation is a Vortex that becomes increasingly = complex=20 "

On a side note, my 7 year old youngest grandson, a child prodigy, has = been=20 fascinated with astronomy since he started using his own computer at age = 2 1/2.=20 I send him the links and enjoy his comments. He is now in the 5th.. = err.. maybe=20 8th grade.. who knows. Fortunately his father recognized his remarkable = gifts=20 soon after birth and devotes quality time to working with him. What is=20 surprising is that there are so many of these gifted young children in = Houston,=20 all enrolled in special class programs. Gives one hope for the = future.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5AA7F.33857540-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AA7F.33857540 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c5aaa9$1c431340$8c027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AA7F.33857540-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 18:56:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7R1tkg9001063; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:56:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7R1tiCa001047; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:55:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:55:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c5aaaa$61c8a9b0$8c027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: BLP on the IOP website + ZPE Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:55:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi wrote.. http://www.iop.org/EJ/njp >Put the name "Rathke" or the article number in the search box and you will >find the paper. The mathematics of BLP is egregiously wrong and fails to >account for existing phenomena. You can't build on a house of straw... Remi, You did the math and noticed.. my what sharp eyes you have grandma !! Must be that engineers brain that looks at math through an engineers eyes.. That attribute will serve you well. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 19:09:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7R28bbn005682; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:08:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7R28aVE005676; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:08:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:08:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.53.176] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Sing the Universe Electric Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:08:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050827020813.KXXB17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <21KmVB.A.eYB.ks8DDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "RC Macaulay" > On a side note, my 7 year old youngest grandson, a child prodigy, An Indigo child? http://www.indigochild.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 20:43:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7R3hQY7001167; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:43:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7R3hOFk001148; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:43:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:43:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c5aab9$6e754ce0$8c027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20050827020813.KXXB17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Sing the Universe Electric Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:43:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, He isn't an "Indigo" child. These " movements" like the Indigo programs and such scare me. He is just an extremely bright child brought up in a loving normal home with nurturing and allowed to progress at his super fast speed without the attendent abstractions of parential " push and shove" toward a " master race" ego mentality. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 9:08 PM Subject: Re: Sing the Universe Electric >> From: "RC Macaulay" > >> On a side note, my 7 year old youngest grandson, a child prodigy, > > An Indigo child? > > http://www.indigochild.com/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 26 23:34:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7R6Xg9V013538; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:33:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7R6XeS8013521; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:33:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:33:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:32:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Placebo effect Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Parksie was attributing the beneficial effects of homeopathy to the placebo effect. The last I heard, someone had proven that the placebo effect was non existent. All I know is that I have relieved myself of conditions ranging from water on the elbow to sores in my mouth with homeopathy. I'm sure that Parksie would be so pleased, not. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 03:59:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RAweAK020377; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 03:58:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RAwaOt020355; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 03:58:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 03:58:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Rq7wY1uvpJA3448q/BSm3nBHSU1SNhSFn6z5wPqZgEZnUitozIRjgqBTYe4Kw6RU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005862795755390 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:57:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403733cc4e6430c0c023c300214f927367350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.193 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII With fossil fuel energy (Heating, Cooling & Motor Fuel) cost heading toward $3.00/therm or $30.00/million BTU, an insulated 5,000 -10,000 gallon (poured concrete) water storage tank buried in the back yard (at a safe distance from the septic tank if you have one) can store about 4 million BTU/day off a heat pump condensing side in the summer and dumped at night with a fan-coil unit or a cooling tower. A roof-mount Solar Heat collector should be able to store a few million BTU/day when the heat pump condensing side is warming the house. Since I'm about ready to go to central air conditioning (I scrapped the evaporative cooler ^ switched to area refrigerated units) and doing some digging in the flower garden of this small (city) back yard.... :-) Glauber's Salt costs about $70.00 per ton (and getting cheaper as more Coal-Burning power plants need to turn SO2 into dirt cheap H2SO4). In 1986 Anhydrous H2SO4 was $5.00/ton at a Southwestern Power Plant. The expense was in the 20 ton tanker truck transportation costs. 1, 2 SO2 + O2 -----> 2 SO3 2, 2 SO3 + 2 H2O ------> 2 H2SO4 (Anhydrous) 2 NaCl + H2SO4 -----> Na2SO4 + 2 HCl Na2SO4 + 10 H2O -----> Na2SO4-10H2O Phase Change: 90 Degrees F 108 BTU/LB http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/factsheets/b103.html Glauber's salt (sodium sulfate decahydrate), calcium chloride hexahydrate, and paraffin wax are the most commonly used PCMs in solar heating systems. Although these compounds are fairly inexpensive, the packaging and processing necessary to get consistent and reliable performance from them is complicated and costly. http://chemicals.etacude.com/s/sodium_sulfate2.php Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

With fossil fuel energy (Heating, Cooling & Motor Fuel) cost heading toward  $3.00/therm or $30.00/million BTU,
an insulated 5,000 -10,000 gallon (poured concrete) water storage tank buried in the back
yard (at a safe distance from the septic tank if you have one) can store about 4 million BTU/day off a heat
pump condensing side in the summer and dumped at night with a fan-coil unit or a cooling tower.
 
A  roof-mount Solar Heat collector should be able to store a few million BTU/day when the
heat pump condensing side is warming the house. 
 
Since I'm about ready to go to central air conditioning (I scrapped the evaporative cooler ^ switched to
area refrigerated units) and doing some digging  in the
flower garden of this small (city)  back yard....   :-)
 
Glauber's Salt costs  about $70.00 per ton (and getting cheaper as more Coal-Burning power plants
need to turn SO2 into dirt cheap H2SO4).
 
In 1986 Anhydrous H2SO4 was $5.00/ton at a Southwestern Power Plant.
 
The expense was in the 20 ton tanker truck transportation costs. 
 
1, 2 SO2 + O2 -----> 2 SO3
 
2,  2 SO3 +  2 H2O  ------> 2 H2SO4  (Anhydrous)
 
2 NaCl + H2SO4 ----->  Na2SO4 + 2 HCl
 
Na2SO4 + 10 H2O ----->  Na2SO4-10H2O
 
Phase Change:  90  Degrees F    108 BTU/LB
 
 
 
Glauber's salt (sodium sulfate decahydrate), calcium chloride hexahydrate, and paraffin wax are the most commonly used PCMs in solar heating systems. Although these compounds are fairly inexpensive, the packaging and processing necessary to get consistent and reliable performance from them is complicated and costly.
 
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 04:34:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RBXPYH030292; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:33:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RBXM93030271; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:33:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:33:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20050827113256921.E0FF42000082 mwinf3111.me.freeserve.com Message-ID: <5887572.1125142376908.JavaMail.www wwinf3103> From: R C Reply-To: corn-wall corn-wall.freeserve.co.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: BLP on the IOP website + ZPE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [81.133.234.210] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:32:56 +0200 (CEST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, (Using this email because the uni. server is down for some reason). The Casmir Effect works with glass plates. If you read the paper: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, 1996 The approach Casmir used is described as a neat calculational trick not to be taken literally. Schocastic Electrodynamics is described as the poor man's Fourier Transform for dealing with *vacuum polarisation* (not the same). Elsewhere it says that zp of the lattice exists but not for a continuum. I will revise it and may be drop off a few of the important points here. I don't know what BEC is. I remember Puthoff back in 2001 in Brighton describing an American invention which was meant to 'detune' the the zp by creating a beat frequency between two slightly different sized spheres which could then just be rectified. He was candid and said it didn't work. This seemed to be a very direct test of the zp *hypothesis*. Not knocking the ideas of the vacuum seeming to having some physical even mechanical property, the following paper is undeniable: Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980). Quoting them: "It is remarkable that no know 'particle' can be identified as the agent of the observed electromagnetic angular momentum in the exchange with the mechanical detector. However, this does not imply that a new entity has to be introduced, because the concept of energy-momentum carried by macroscopic quasi-static (italics mine) electromagnetic field is already contained in Maxwell's equations. According to these, and as directly implied by our experimental result, permanent magnets and electrets can be used to build a flywheel of electromagnetic energy steadily flowing in circles in the vacuum gap of a capacitor as if Maxwell's medium were endowed with a property corresponding to super-fluidity. The certainly new insight is that the quasi-static Maxwell's field is not merely an unobservable medium of interaction between matter and matter: it has in fact the mechanical properties postulated by Maxwell, in contradistinction to any 'action at a distance' theory." ZP is not the way to explain this. Stick to real experiments and not hyper-extrapolated theory. Regards, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 04:43:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RBgEMp032766; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:42:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RBgBOq032744; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:42:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:42:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20050827114144374.5B5271C00083 mwinf3104.me.freeserve.com Message-ID: <13269200.1125142904362.JavaMail.www wwinf3103> From: R C Reply-To: corn-wall corn-wall.freeserve.co.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Placebo Effect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [81.133.234.210] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:41:44 +0200 (CEST) Resent-Message-ID: <3p6DqD.A.h_H.RGFEDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, Being the good cop, homoeopathy is meant to fail the western science criterion because remedies are tailored to the *individual*. Hence the lack or repeatability and statistical trialling. Also many farmers swear by it and it is hard to argue that an animal has high consciousness to give rise to the placebo effect. Also the placebo effect is meant to be real Being bad cop, it is hard to be objective when emotions get in the way. Many of these people are hospice cases ("TETH" tried everything try homoeopathy is a GP acronym.). In all science too, when emotions get in the way (money, personal ambitions, vendettas etc.) one must stand back. I noticed that ICCF had run out of money for the hotel bill... R. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 05:17:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RCGwfn010373; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:17:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RCGura010359; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:16:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:16:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RkJgZe8Yy1NRNAjrnVgkHc/MPi2+/55e/kpJK1WCaW8ZvZiNiMBqKWrxDCdpzYku; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058627111557240 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:15:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940176d078d106981e94da1b39a521bfe8d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.50 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Methinks the Water-to-Air "Geothermal" heat pumps using stored water (or hybridized geothermal/water storage) would be cheaper to operate, with a lower heat storage installation cost too. ??? http://www.alliantenergygeothermal.com/stellent2/groups/public/documents/pub/geo_how_001210.hcsp " You already have a heat pump in your home - your refrigerator. If you put your hand behind it, you'll feel the heat that's being pumped from the inside. It's the same principle that a geothermal heat pump uses to warm your home. Instead of producing heat like a conventional furnace, a geothermal heat pump moves heat from one place to another - from the ground into your home." These worked very nicely at a new 24 bed hospital in the late 1970s. The summer cooling water (60 to 90 F) was piped to the large area and room heat pumps was circulated through a cooling tower. In the heating mode the circulating water (60 to 90 F) was passed through a heat exchanger and heated by steam from a large boiler. The heat pump units had "Freeze-Stats" that shut them down if the circulating water temp fell below 50 F. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Methinks the Water-to-Air "Geothermal" heat pumps using stored water (or hybridized geothermal/water storage) would be cheaper to operate, with a lower heat storage installation cost too.  ???
 
 
 
" You already have a heat pump in your home - your refrigerator. If you put your hand behind it, you'll feel the heat that's being pumped from the inside.

It's the same principle that a geothermal heat pump uses to warm your home. Instead of producing heat like a conventional furnace, a geothermal heat pump moves heat from one place to another - from the ground into your home."

These worked very nicely at a new 24 bed hospital in the late 1970s.

The summer cooling water (60 to 90 F) was piped to the large area and room heat pumps was circulated through a

cooling tower.  In the heating mode the circulating  water (60 to 90 F) was passed through

a heat exchanger and heated by steam from a large boiler.

The heat pump units had "Freeze-Stats" that shut them down if the circulating water temp fell below 50 F.

Frederick

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 05:33:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RCX6fp014964; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:33:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RCX4LD014944; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:33:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:33:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=HjA0kXC/QoICs4+WGb8fK+vuPNDLPWl0kK+GSGgGGY9lotKCl/gEilyj62OqUMHQJKZdrVbhFokj6bXTcd0jAHNYuc8POst0aTaUNKfJIjyftQ5AW6ZhuWE9cS2y5bUMoIVQyx5MUHUNPtSPpAig+FPTLS7Ih/UnHjwTU0cGP6w= ; Message-ID: <20050827123242.56877.qmail web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:32:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: The Casmir Effect and ZPE To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5887572.1125142376908.JavaMail.www wwinf3103> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-864977699-1125145962=:54933" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-864977699-1125145962=:54933 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone considered the possibility that the Casmir Effect is NOT measuring ZPE itself - but the apparatus are reacting to some other force or effect? Chris R C wrote: Terry, (Using this email because the uni. server is down for some reason). The Casmir Effect works with glass plates. If you read the paper: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, 1996 The approach Casmir used is described as a neat calculational trick not to be taken literally. Schocastic Electrodynamics is described as the poor man's Fourier Transform for dealing with *vacuum polarisation* (not the same). Elsewhere it says that zp of the lattice exists but not for a continuum. I will revise it and may be drop off a few of the important points here. I don't know what BEC is. I remember Puthoff back in 2001 in Brighton describing an American invention which was meant to 'detune' the the zp by creating a beat frequency between two slightly different sized spheres which could then just be rectified. He was candid and said it didn't work. This seemed to be a very direct test of the zp *hypothesis*. Not knocking the ideas of the vacuum seeming to having some physical even mechanical property, the following paper is undeniable: Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980). Quoting them: "It is remarkable that no know 'particle' can be identified as the agent of the observed electromagnetic angular momentum in the exchange with the mechanical detector. However, this does not imply that a new entity has to be introduced, because the concept of energy-momentum carried by macroscopic quasi-static (italics mine) electromagnetic field is already contained in Maxwell's equations. According to these, and as directly implied by our experimental result, permanent magnets and electrets can be used to build a flywheel of electromagnetic energy steadily flowing in circles in the vacuum gap of a capacitor as if Maxwell's medium were endowed with a property corresponding to super-fluidity. The certainly new insight is that the quasi-static Maxwell's field is not merely an unobservable medium of interaction between matter and matter: it has in fact the mechanical properties postulated by Maxwell, in contradistinction to any 'action at a distance' theory." ZP is not the way to explain this. Stick to real experiments and not hyper-extrapolated theory. Regards, Remi. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-864977699-1125145962=:54933 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Has anyone considered the possibility that the Casmir Effect is NOT measuring ZPE itself - but the apparatus are reacting to some other force or effect?
 
Chris

R C <corn-wall corn-wall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Terry,

(Using this email because the uni. server is down for some reason).

The Casmir Effect works with glass plates. If you read the paper:

"Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel
F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, 1996

The approach Casmir used is described as a neat calculational trick not to be taken literally. Schocastic Electrodynamics is described as the poor man's Fourier Transform for dealing with *vacuum polarisation* (not the same). Elsewhere it says that zp of the lattice exists but not for a continuum. I will revise it and may be drop off a few of the important points here.

I don't know what BEC is.

I remember Puthoff back in 2001 in Brighton describing an American invention which was meant to 'detune' the the zp by creating a beat frequency between two slightly different sized spheres which could then just be rectified. He was candid and said it didn't work. This seemed to be a very direct test of the zp *hypothesis*.

Not knocking the ideas of the vacuum seeming to having some physical even mechanical property, the following paper is undeniable:
Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980).

Quoting them:
"It is remarkable that no know 'particle' can be identified as the agent of the observed electromagnetic angular momentum in the exchange with the mechanical detector. However, this does not imply that a new entity has to be introduced, because the concept of energy-momentum carried by macroscopic quasi-static (italics mine) electromagnetic field is already contained in Maxwell's equations. According to these, and as directly implied by our experimental result, permanent magnets and electrets can be used to build a flywheel of electromagnetic energy steadily flowing in circles in the vacuum gap of a capacitor as if Maxwell's medium were endowed with a property corresponding to super-fluidity. The certainly new insight is that the quasi-static Maxwell's field is not merely an unobservable medium of interaction between matter and matter: it has in fact the mechanical properties postulated by Maxwell, in contradistinction to any 'action at a distance' theory."

ZP is not the way to explain this. Stick to real experiments and not hyper-extrapolated theory.
Regards,
Remi.

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --0-864977699-1125145962=:54933-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 06:31:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RDUb4m000514; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:30:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RDUZPe000501; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:30:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:30:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.217.10.174] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Sing the Universe Electric Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 9:30:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050827133013.LBZD15611.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "RC Macaulay" > He isn't an "Indigo" child. These " movements" like the Indigo programs and > such scare me. Yeah, even more scary is the Starchild Movement led by Boylan. Congrats on your grandkids! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 07:11:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7REB6ZS017611; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7REB4s7017594; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mVBpks3UEucmktvKvUbJFU5AHdNOEDnGdKIqU9U0ctcDlp2BjkAim79lUJmwG5N5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058627131039730 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:10:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409191b9beb2f8ada9eeaf383fda882825350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.60 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier: > > With fossil fuel energy (Heating, Cooling & Motor Fuel) cost heading toward > $3.00/therm or $30.00/million BTU, > With Distribution, Transmission, Access, and franchise fees Natural Gas is running about $.90 per therm. Add 30% to 40% for heat out the chimney Coal Generated Electricity $0.09/kw-hr is costing about $2.75 per therm. PNM is traded at NYSE. They own a share of the Palo Verde Nuclear facility too. http://www.pnm.com/customers/read_bill.htm Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Posted earlier:
>
> With fossil fuel energy (Heating, Cooling & Motor Fuel) cost heading toward  
> $3.00/therm or $30.00/million BTU,
>
 
With Distribution, Transmission, Access, and franchise fees Natural Gas is running about $.90 per therm. Add 30% to 40% for heat out the chimney
 
Coal Generated Electricity $0.09/kw-hr  is costing about $2.75 per therm.
 
PNM is traded at NYSE.  They own a share of the Palo Verde Nuclear facility too.
 
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 09:53:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RGqsLc012077; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:53:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RGqn74012040; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:52:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:52:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001501c5ab27$b300de60$70027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:52:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C5AAFD.C9A74E80"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C5AAFD.C9A74E80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C5AAFD.C9A8D520" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C5AAFD.C9A8D520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred has a very important series of posts regarding vital moves = proposed for available energy resources that are being tragically = ignored. As a nation, we overlook readily available technology in energy = conservation and use because we have been seduced by artificially low = fuel prices for purposes of which we are not yet aware.. =20 We will need a " Marshall plan" to get us off "deadcenter". We are not = running out of time.. we have already run out of time evidenced by the = commodities market reflection of the price of crude. The price is based = ..not on demand.. but on the " perception" of the status of oil supply vs. demand.=20 I once heard a professional poker player say when another player was = hesitant calling the play.. "you can't play poker with scared money". = The professionals in the oil game are aware, like sharks smelling blood, = of the prevailing fear permeating governments, industry and the people. The US Dept of Energy is hesitant, bound by politics and by poor and = indecisive leadership. This hesitancy reflects a fear that results in = inaction which leads to mischief and calculation by professinal poker = players testing the pot watching to see who is "sweating". The scary = thought is they realize there is no longer any " limits". This old world contains some really evil people that love to fish in = troubled waters and love to watch and provoke. It is time the individual = study his enrergy resources and plan for basic needs for shelter, food , = clothing and fuel. Emphasis on FUEL. Be wise to read everything Fred Sparber posts on this subject. So.. = Fred.. please continue witrh your thoughts because what you have to say = is really getting interesting. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C5AAFD.C9A8D520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred has  a very important series of posts regarding vital = moves=20 proposed for available energy resources that are being tragically = ignored.
As a nation, we overlook readily available technology in energy=20 conservation and use because we have been seduced by artificially low = fuel=20 prices for purposes of which we are not yet aware..  
 
We will need a " Marshall plan" to get us off  "deadcenter". = We are=20 not running out of time.. we have already run out of time evidenced by = the=20 commodities market reflection of the price of crude. The price is = based=20 ..not on demand.. but on the
" perception" of the status of oil supply vs. demand.
 
 I once heard a professional poker player  say when = another=20 player was hesitant calling the play.. "you can't play poker with scared = money".=20 The professionals in the oil game are aware, like sharks smelling blood, = of the=20 prevailing fear permeating governments, industry and the people.
The US Dept of Energy is hesitant, bound by politics and by poor = and=20 indecisive leadership. This hesitancy reflects a fear that results = in=20 inaction which leads to mischief and calculation by professinal poker = players=20 testing the pot watching to see who is "sweating". The scary thought is = they=20 realize there is no longer any " limits".
 
This old world contains some really evil people that love to = fish in=20 troubled waters and love to watch and provoke. It is time the individual = study=20 his enrergy resources and plan for basic needs for shelter, food , = clothing and=20 fuel. Emphasis on FUEL.
 
Be wise to read everything Fred Sparber posts on this subject. So.. = Fred..=20 please continue witrh your thoughts because what you have to say is = really=20 getting interesting.
 
Richard

 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C5AAFD.C9A8D520-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C5AAFD.C9A74E80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c5ab27$b26e1440$70027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C5AAFD.C9A74E80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 10:47:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RHkwdT030925; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:47:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RHkulK030908; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:46:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:46:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YJHSeV1SAAv3LqD/MfQaSFHOmNCRyWvWcVh+bXFGI7KkHM0PhBhxu6tMxLXvrXfh; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-220058627164612490 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:46:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408f6ddcd524996232090b2a10fff2fd63350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.169 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII About the only thing I can add, Richard, is that the "Energy Barons" as dictated by Cheney's Secret meeting on energy policy is set the price of all Fossil fuel energy at $3.00 per Therm (100,000 BTU). Gasoline, Diesel, (~.1.2 Therms/gallon) Propane (0.92 Therms/gallon) & Home Heating Oil (~1.2 Therms/gallon ) & Electricity (~ 30 Kw-Hr/Therm). (Natural gas headed there) Hydrogen too ??? :-) Frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 8/27/05 11:53:06 AM Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Fred has a very important series of posts regarding vital moves proposed for available energy resources that are being tragically ignored. As a nation, we overlook readily available technology in energy conservation and use because we have been seduced by artificially low fuel prices for purposes of which we are not yet aware.. We will need a " Marshall plan" to get us off "deadcenter". We are not running out of time.. we have already run out of time evidenced by the commodities market reflection of the price of crude. The price is based ..not on demand.. but on the " perception" of the status of oil supply vs. demand. I once heard a professional poker player say when another player was hesitant calling the play.. "you can't play poker with scared money". The professionals in the oil game are aware, like sharks smelling blood, of the prevailing fear permeating governments, industry and the people. The US Dept of Energy is hesitant, bound by politics and by poor and indecisive leadership. This hesitancy reflects a fear that results in inaction which leads to mischief and calculation by professinal poker players testing the pot watching to see who is "sweating". The scary thought is they realize there is no longer any " limits". This old world contains some really evil people that love to fish in troubled waters and love to watch and provoke. It is time the individual study his enrergy resources and plan for basic needs for shelter, food , clothing and fuel. Emphasis on FUEL. Be wise to read everything Fred Sparber posts on this subject. So.. Fred.. please continue witrh your thoughts because what you have to say is really getting interesting. Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
About the only thing I can add, Richard,  is that the "Energy Barons" as dictated by
Cheney's Secret meeting on energy policy is set the price of all Fossil fuel
energy at $3.00 per Therm (100,000 BTU). 
Gasoline, Diesel, (~.1.2 Therms/gallon) Propane (0.92 Therms/gallon) & Home Heating Oil (~1.2 Therms/gallon ) & Electricity (~ 30 Kw-Hr/Therm).  (Natural gas headed there)  Hydrogen too ???  :-)
 
Frederick
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 8/27/05 11:53:06 AM
Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs

Fred has  a very important series of posts regarding vital moves proposed for available energy resources that are being tragically ignored.
As a nation, we overlook readily available technology in energy conservation and use because we have been seduced by artificially low fuel prices for purposes of which we are not yet aware..  
 
We will need a " Marshall plan" to get us off  "deadcenter". We are not running out of time.. we have already run out of time evidenced by the commodities market reflection of the price of crude. The price is based ..not on demand.. but on the
" perception" of the status of oil supply vs. demand.
 
 I once heard a professional poker player  say when another player was hesitant calling the play.. "you can't play poker with scared money". The professionals in the oil game are aware, like sharks smelling blood, of the prevailing fear permeating governments, industry and the people.
The US Dept of Energy is hesitant, bound by politics and by poor and indecisive leadership. This hesitancy reflects a fear that results in inaction which leads to mischief and calculation by professinal poker players testing the pot watching to see who is "sweating". The scary thought is they realize there is no longer any " limits".
 
This old world contains some really evil people that love to fish in troubled waters and love to watch and provoke. It is time the individual study his enrergy resources and plan for basic needs for shelter, food , clothing and fuel. Emphasis on FUEL.
 
Be wise to read everything Fred Sparber posts on this subject. So.. Fred.. please continue witrh your thoughts because what you have to say is really getting interesting.
 
Richard

 

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Id: <410-220058627164689201 13071999> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 14:01:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7RL1WEf031024; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:01:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7RL1Uxj030925; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:01:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:01:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <22383156.1125176473124.JavaMail.root mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:01:12 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Researcher needs heavy water and other materials Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7RL1D8i030834 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A retired physicist named Guy Richards contacted me recently. He hopes to perform cold fusion experiments, but he is having trouble purchasing the heavy water and reagents. Ed Storms told me this is because post-9/11 security has made it difficult for private individuals to buy such things. That sounds crazy but believable. Anyway, Ed suggested that Richards contact someone at a local university chemistry department, or someplace like that, and ask for help buying these things. I suggested to Richards that he send me a self-introduction, and I will circulate it to researchers. Perhaps someone here can assist him. His letter is attached. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - My name is Guy C. Richards and I live at 5566 Kilburn Avenue, Rockford, Illinois 61101. I am 62 years old and have a BS in Engineering Physics from Michigan Tech and an MBA from Illinois Institute of Technology. I am retired now two years after spending 36 years in packaging R&D at American National Can Co. and it's descendants. At the bench, a manager, a director and a vice president of R&D I was good at finding new directions for applied research that would turn into new technologies or products. (5 Issued US patents) I started following CF in '89 right after Pons and Fleischmann went public. Since hydrogen was directly involved in steel can corrosion we had a number of references on "Hydrogen in Metals" which started my R&D sense twitching. As an inveterate electronic and mechanical tinkerer I felt that CF technology was within my reach and after retirement and moving I built a small lab on my five acres dedicated to CF. I have several ideas on how to repeat and enhance the CF effect and am at the point of doing the control data taking. My next step is to test the variables for which I need the materials we talked about. The following list would let me get started: Sigma-Aldrich D2O 99.96 atom % #151890 250 g quantity-1 $266.40 Lithium 99.9 atom % # 265985 25 g quantity-1 55.90 D2O 99 atom % # 435767 100g quantity-5 335.00 Shipping and handling 51.40 Grand Total $708.70 If someone at a university or other lab would assist me, I would be glad to send a certified check or order the materials and use the lab’s shipping address or any other method suggested. I am most grateful for your kind offer of assistance in this matter. I have prepared a proposed "hold harmless" agreement which I would be glad to sign. [Richards attached a copy, which I cannot attach here. - JR] Best regards, Guy Richards From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 18:44:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7S1iaIO014535; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:44:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7S1iOnT014480; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:44:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:44:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050827184350.02997ef0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:44:27 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: ICENES 2005 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <6gOQ6.A.MiD.3bREDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, Just back from Brussels...everything went great with the presentations from me, McKubre, De Ninno and Frisone. Excellent receptivity from, and dialogue with that community. More details to come in New Energy Times Sept. 10. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 18:59:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7S1wglN019956; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:58:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7S1we8M019883; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:58:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:58:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000501c5ab73$ff5c3970$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050827184350.02997ef0 mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: ICENES 2005 Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:58:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve, Any good nuggets from the ICENES conference. Oil looks poised to go over $70 as Katrina is now a monster and is heading for the oil platforms off Louisana. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" To: Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:44 PM Subject: ICENES 2005 > Hi all, > > Just back from Brussels...everything went great with the presentations > from me, McKubre, De Ninno and Frisone. Excellent receptivity from, and > dialogue with that community. More details to come in New Energy Times > Sept. 10. > > Steve > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 19:17:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7S2Grk6026195; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:17:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7S2Go5e026163; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:16:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:16:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.12] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Shoulders, Puthoff & Sarfatti re ZPE Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:16:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2005 02:16:28.0150 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F614960:01C5AB76] Resent-Message-ID: <6uwehB.A.vYG.S6REDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo, More to ponder. Disturbing. http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=11751_0_5_0_C From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 19:36:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7S2ZbC3031920; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:35:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7S2ZRlE031868; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:35:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:35:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5ab79$15f3aa10$3f037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: ICENES 2005 Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:34:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5AB4F.2C970CF0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5AB4F.2C970CF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5AB4F.2C989390" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5AB4F.2C989390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Coviello wrote.. Steve, Any good nuggets from the ICENES conference. Oil looks poised to go = over=20 $70 as Katrina is now a monster and is heading for the oil platforms off = Louisana. Doubtful that the City of New Orleans can take a direct hit from Katrina = if she sustains the wind and tidal forces predicted. The city dike and = levee systems cannot cope with a tidal surge of this magnitude. The city = is below sea level in places and vulnerable from the lake behind the = city. Offshore platforms are capable of riding out the winds but oil = production will suffer.. too many shutdowns this year and some pipeline = damage still being worked out. All spells opportunity for oil futures = market speculators. There is no stabilizing influence in the foreseeable = future to keep crude prices from their continued rise. This nation will = pay a price for failing to have an energy policy in place. The insanity = of it all is the potential for a crisis type event that would bring on a = knee jerk reaction similar to the Homeland Security plan which is = neither for the homeland nor for our security. In the movie .. "The Big Country" .. Burl Ives said .. " perhaps there's = a side to you I never saw before" to Chuck Conners. So there may be a = side to the combo Homeland Security and energy policy that we have never = before encountered. Sheer insanity. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5AB4F.2C989390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Coviello wrote..

Steve,

Any good nuggets from the ICENES conference.  Oil = looks=20 poised to go over
$70 as Katrina is now a monster and is heading for = the oil=20 platforms off
Louisana.

Doubtful that the City of New Orleans can take a direct hit from = Katrina if=20 she sustains the wind and tidal  forces predicted. The city dike = and levee=20 systems cannot cope with a tidal surge of this magnitude. The city is = below sea=20 level in places and vulnerable from the lake behind the city.

Offshore platforms are capable of riding out the winds but oil = production=20 will suffer.. too many shutdowns this year and some pipeline damage = still being=20 worked out. All spells opportunity for oil futures market speculators. = There is=20 no stabilizing influence in the foreseeable future to keep crude prices = from=20 their continued rise. This nation will pay a price for failing to have = an energy=20 policy in place. The insanity of it all is the potential for a crisis = type event=20 that would bring on a knee jerk reaction similar to the Homeland = Security plan=20 which is neither for the homeland nor for our security.

In the movie .. "The Big Country" .. Burl Ives said .. " perhaps = there's=20 a side to you I never saw before" to Chuck Conners. So there may be a = side to=20 the combo Homeland Security and energy policy that we have never before=20 encountered.          &= nbsp;       =20 Sheer insanity.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5AB4F.2C989390-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5AB4F.2C970CF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c5ab79$1557b830$3f037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5AB4F.2C970CF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 19:59:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7S2vEqb005459; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:57:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7S2vDnB005448; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:57:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:57:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.16.199] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Shoulders, Puthoff & Sarfatti re ZPE Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:56:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050828025651.PZXU15611.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Mark Goldes" > Vo, > > More to ponder. Disturbing. > > http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=11751_0_5_0_C >From the site: "Sarfatti's model is the mirror opposite of Puthoff's. "The zero point pressure is negative inside the thin shell of typically a trillion to ten thousand trillion electrons in the observed EVOs 10-5 cm to 10-5 meters across and is zero outside." Sarfatti seems to always choose the opposing view. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 20:56:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7S3tgrf027585; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:55:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7S3teV7027570; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:55:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:55:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c5ab84$59e352b0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <000e01c5ab79$15f3aa10$3f037841 xptower> Subject: Re: ICENES 2005 Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:55:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AB62.D268B7B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AB62.D268B7B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5AB62.D268B7B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5AB62.D268B7B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFrom: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:34 PM Subject: Re: ICENES 2005 John Coviello wrote.. Steve, Any good nuggets from the ICENES conference. Oil looks poised to go = over=20 $70 as Katrina is now a monster and is heading for the oil platforms = off=20 Louisana. Doubtful that the City of New Orleans can take a direct hit from = Katrina if she sustains the wind and tidal forces predicted. The city = dike and levee systems cannot cope with a tidal surge of this magnitude. = The city is below sea level in places and vulnerable from the lake = behind the city. Offshore platforms are capable of riding out the winds but oil = production will suffer.. too many shutdowns this year and some pipeline = damage still being worked out. All spells opportunity for oil futures = market speculators. There is no stabilizing influence in the foreseeable = future to keep crude prices from their continued rise. This nation will = pay a price for failing to have an energy policy in place. The insanity = of it all is the potential for a crisis type event that would bring on a = knee jerk reaction similar to the Homeland Security plan which is = neither for the homeland nor for our security. In the movie .. "The Big Country" .. Burl Ives said .. " perhaps = there's a side to you I never saw before" to Chuck Conners. So there may = be a side to the combo Homeland Security and energy policy that we have = never before encountered. Sheer insanity. Richard Well said. This does look like the nightmare scenario for New = Orleans. A strong hurricane coming in from the east and south could = spell doom. It will be an interesting 48 hours. Oil traders sold off the oil market at the close on Friday, down over = $1.00. They thought Katrina would be minor and affect the eastern = Gulf, away from the oil platforms. I wouldn't be surprised if oil opens = at $68.00 to $70.00 on Monday and moves up from there. Supplies are = tight already. If the U.S. brings 100,000s of barrels offline, it's = likely to drive up the markets. I know this is short term, but the = demand for oil won't let up, it seems as of there is a growing consensus = that peak oil is nearing. =20 On a positive note, there is A LOT more talk about alternative energy = these days. I see exposes on the mainstream news all the time about = alt.energy nowadays. Even my local talk-radio station is starting to = talk about alt.energy. Joe Schoes are calling in and talking about = their alt.energy ideas and the radio host is also talking about it. = They seemed focused on using extriment to produce power, not a bad idea = really, there are technologies now that can convert extriment into oil = and can convert the gases from sewage treatment plants into electricity. = =20 We'll solve our energy problems sooner or later. Personally, I'd = rather be runing my car on cold fusion than extriment. :-) ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5AB62.D268B7B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 = 10:34=20 PM
Subject: Re: ICENES 2005

John Coviello wrote..

Steve,

Any good nuggets from the ICENES conference.  = Oil looks=20 poised to go over
$70 as Katrina is now a monster and is heading = for the=20 oil platforms off
Louisana.

Doubtful that the City of New Orleans can take a direct hit from = Katrina if=20 she sustains the wind and tidal  forces predicted. The city dike = and=20 levee systems cannot cope with a tidal surge of this magnitude. The = city is=20 below sea level in places and vulnerable from the lake behind the = city.

Offshore platforms are capable of riding out the winds but oil = production=20 will suffer.. too many shutdowns this year and some pipeline damage = still=20 being worked out. All spells opportunity for oil futures market = speculators.=20 There is no stabilizing influence in the foreseeable future to keep = crude=20 prices from their continued rise. This nation will pay a price for = failing to=20 have an energy policy in place. The insanity of it all is the = potential for a=20 crisis type event that would bring on a knee jerk reaction similar to = the=20 Homeland Security plan which is neither for the homeland nor for our=20 security.

In the movie .. "The Big Country" .. Burl Ives said .. " = perhaps=20 there's a side to you I never saw before" to Chuck Conners. So there = may be a=20 side to the combo Homeland Security and energy policy that we have = never=20 before=20 = encountered.          &= nbsp;       =20 Sheer insanity.

Richard

Well said.  This does look like the nightmare scenario for New = Orleans.  A strong hurricane coming in from the east and south = could=20 spell doom.  It will be an interesting 48 hours.

Oil traders sold off the oil market at the close on Friday, down = over=20 $1.00.   They thought Katrina would be minor and affect the = eastern=20 Gulf, away from the oil platforms.  I wouldn't be surprised if = oil opens=20 at $68.00 to $70.00 on Monday and moves up from there.  Supplies = are=20 tight already.  If the U.S. brings 100,000s of barrels offline, = it's=20 likely to drive up the markets.  I know this is short term, but = the=20 demand for oil won't let up, it seems as of there is a growing = consensus that=20 peak oil is nearing. 

On a positive note, there is A LOT more talk about = alternative=20 energy these days.  I see exposes on the mainstream news all the = time=20 about alt.energy nowadays.  Even my local talk-radio station is = starting=20 to talk about alt.energy.  Joe Schoes are calling in and talking = about=20 their alt.energy ideas and the radio host is also talking about = it.  They=20 seemed focused on using extriment to produce power, not a bad idea = really,=20 there are technologies now that can convert extriment into oil and can = convert=20 the gases from sewage treatment plants into electricity. 

We'll solve our energy problems sooner or later.  Personally, = I'd=20 rather be runing my car on cold fusion than extriment. =20 :-)

------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5AB62.D268B7B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AB62.D268B7B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c5ab84$596289f0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AB62.D268B7B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 27 23:22:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7S6LqhV008473; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:22:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7S6LHnm008326; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:21:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:21:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050828061857.009b7b54 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 07:18:57 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Shoulders, Puthoff & Sarfatti re ZPE Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:16 pm 27/08/2005 -0700, Mark wrote: > Vo, > > More to ponder. Disturbing. > > http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=11751_0_5_0_C Don't worry, Mark. If you get Malloved you will go straight to heaven as a Martyr For Truth. Can't guarantee you 72 houris though. ;-) ---------------------------------------------- cum enim a mortuis resurrexerint neque nubent neque nubentur sed sunt sicut angeli in caelis ---------------------------------------------- Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 03:17:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7SAHWjW030620; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:17:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7SAHQGK030580; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:17:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:17:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=egzKuEN/zXTOo33qxJ4gGaY0DrX9RXqVTHFQp61mw+vsd9C+dli9ZP9DxoBOi/1g; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220058028917050 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 04:17:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cb0618b732e2da21d484ae6e45f0872a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.103 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.dallasfed.org/research/swe/2005/swe0504c.html " Natural Gas Pricing: Do Oil Prices Still Matter? Over the past 10 years, however, the number of facilities able to switch between natural gas and residual fuel oil has declined. And in the most recent five years, natural gas prices seemed to move somewhat independently of oil prices. Natural gas prices rose above what was seen as their historical relationship with crude oil prices in 2000, 2002 and 2003. In the first half of 2005, natural gas prices seemed to fall below this historical relationship. Consequently, many may wonder whether oil price movements still shape those of natural gas and whether the old rules of thumb for relating natural gas prices to those of crude are still useful. The analysis presented here shows oil prices do still matter for natural gas prices, but the old rules of thumb relating natural gas prices to those for oil are of limited usefulness. With variations in natural gas storage of ±10 percent, a 150 percent gain in the crude oil price could result in the natural gas price rising by less than 65 percent or more than 350 percent. It’s no wonder that analysis using rules of thumb to price natural gas suggests that the relationship between natural gas and crude oil prices has changed. In contrast, fitted values from the regression analysis with weekly seasonal factors and storage conditions taken into account show that U.S. natural gas prices track those of WTI quite well (Chart 4 " WTI = West Texas Intermediate ................................................................................................................. State of Connecticut Energy Data Last modified: March 16, 2005 http://www.opm.state.ct.us/pdpd2/energy/flows94.htm 1 BARREL = 42 GALLONS Energy TypeBTU/BARRELBTU/GALLON CRUDE OIL5,855,795 139,424 MOTOR GASOLINE5,250,000 125,000 AVIATION GASOLINE5,005,224 119,172 JET FUEL5,434,926 129,403 L.P.G.4,054,470 96,535 PROPANE3,836,000 91,333 ETHANE3,082,000 73,381 BUTANE4,326,000 103,000 KEROSENE5,670,000 135,000 #1 DISTILLATE5,706,000 135,857 #2 DISTILLATE5,825,000 138,690 #4 DISTILLATE6,062,000 144,333 RESIDUAL OIL6,287,000 149,690 BTU/TONBTU/POUND ANTHRACITE COAL25,400,000 12,700 BITUMINOUS COAL23,750,000 11,875 BTU/KWH ELECTRICITY (END-USERS)3,412 ELECTRICITY (GENERATION)10,908 BTU/CUBIC FOOT NATURAL GAS1,031 1 THERM = 100,000 BTU = APPROX. 100 CUBIC FEET OF NATURAL GAS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
" Natural Gas Pricing: Do Oil Prices Still Matter?
 
Over the past 10 years, however, the number of facilities able to switch between natural gas and residual fuel oil has declined. And in the most recent five years, natural gas prices seemed to move somewhat independently of oil prices. Natural gas prices rose above what was seen as their historical relationship with crude oil prices in 2000, 2002 and 2003. In the first half of 2005, natural gas prices seemed to fall below this historical relationship.
 
Consequently, many may wonder whether oil price movements still shape those of natural gas and whether the old rules of thumb for relating natural gas prices to those of crude are still useful. The analysis presented here shows oil prices do still matter for natural gas prices, but the old rules of thumb relating natural gas prices to those for oil are of limited usefulness.
 
With variations in natural gas storage of ±10 percent, a 150 percent gain in the crude oil price could result in the natural gas price rising by less than 65 percent or more than 350 percent. It’s no wonder that analysis using rules of thumb to price natural gas suggests that the relationship between natural gas and crude oil prices has changed. In contrast, fitted values from the regression analysis with weekly seasonal factors and storage conditions taken into account show that U.S. natural gas prices track those of WTI quite well (Chart 4   "
 
WTI   =   West Texas Intermediate
.................................................................................................................
State of Connecticut Energy Data
Last modified: March 16, 2005
 
 
1 BARREL = 42 GALLONS
 
Energy Type BTU/BARREL BTU/GALLON

CRUDE OIL

5,855,795

139,424

MOTOR GASOLINE

5,250,000

125,000

AVIATION GASOLINE

5,005,224

119,172

JET FUEL

5,434,926

129,403

L.P.G.

4,054,470

96,535

PROPANE

3,836,000

91,333

ETHANE

3,082,000

73,381

BUTANE

4,326,000

103,000

KEROSENE

5,670,000

135,000

#1 DISTILLATE

5,706,000

135,857

#2 DISTILLATE

5,825,000

138,690

#4 DISTILLATE

6,062,000

144,333

RESIDUAL OIL

6,287,000

149,690

 

BTU/TON BTU/POUND

ANTHRACITE COAL

25,400,000

12,700

BITUMINOUS COAL

23,750,000

11,875

BTU/KWH

ELECTRICITY (END-USERS)

3,412

ELECTRICITY (GENERATION)

10,908

BTU/CUBIC FOOT

NATURAL GAS

1,031

1 THERM = 100,000 BTU = APPROX. 100 CUBIC FEET OF NATURAL GAS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 05:35:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7SCZ4xK006162; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:35:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7SCZ1HU006117; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:35:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:35:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4311AF5F.6070505 sumosound.de> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:34:39 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulders, Puthoff & Sarfatti re ZPE References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > Vo, > > More to ponder. Disturbing. > > http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=11751_0_5_0_C Considering the background of all of the participants in this debate, I would pidgeonhole this one as something similar to the weapons development disinformation that was propagated during the Reagan administration. Sarfatti is a headgamer/prankster of no small fame who, as far as I know, has never contributed anything of any value to the work of cosmology, other than stimulating debate. Debate is obviously necessary this field, as the blind acceptance of what Puthoff, Feinmann, or any other cosmologist might proffer would stagnate independant thought and progress. If Sarfatti can demonstrate his theory in the real world, then he deserves a great deal of praise. If not, then I would not be too bothered with what he is saying. As for developing an EVO weapon, you have to remember, that it took the military over 60 years to come up with a usable microwave weapon, which by comparison, is fairly primitive. I think it is premature to the point of being a waste of time to be worrying about a terrorist boarding an airplane carrying EVO bombs. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 08:24:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7SFNuxB027099; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:24:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7SFNtGP027086; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:23:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:23:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=cAgw2rQ+3qlVNX4sT90OLNr2t564Q1VTsQ4whjpunCXyEs5od2O6X0SnGT4ttlYI; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005802814238180 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Clandestine Charge Cluster Fantasy Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:23:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94020051b6b112d810df2466d67e96ebd12350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.194 Resent-Message-ID: <4gN90.A.HnG.KcdEDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The minimum energy investment to remove a coulomb worth of electrons (6.24e18) from H2 to get H2+ + e- is 15 joules. The explosive recombination is also 15 joules. The Potential between the "Cluster" and the parent H2+ ion/s at 0.1 meter separation is 9.0e9 * 1^2/0.1 = 90 Billion Volts! The Force to separate the "Cluster" is 9.0e9 * 1^2/0.01 = 900 billion Newtons = 91.8 Million Tonnes. Black Powder is easier to make (for megaton yields): Here's How: 1. Originally, black powder was made by mixing equal amounts, by weight, of elemental sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter (potassium nitrate). 2. The ratio was later adjusted to 75:15:10 saltpeter:sulfur:charcoal. Willow is most often used as the source for the charcoal. 3. The three components were carefully and completely ground together, resulting in a powder called 'serpentine'. 4. Serpentine often required re-mixing prior to use. The grinding and mixing process was very, very dangerous! 5. Some of the hazard was reduced by adding water, wine, or other liquids while grinding and mixing. 6. The slurry was forced through a screen to make small pellets. The pellets were then allowed to dry. 7. All it takes is a single spark to ignite gunpowder! 8. A great deal of smoke is produced when gunpowder is burned. This impairs visibility in battle. 9. Willow is the traditional wood used to make charcoal, but grapevine, hazel, elder, laurel, and pine cones may be used. 10. Charcoal is not the only fuel that can be used. Sugar is used instead in many pyrotechnic applications. Too much smoke ruins a firework display! 11. To summarize, black powder consists of a fuel (charcoal or sugar) and an oxidizer (saltpeter), and sulfur, to allow for a stable reaction. 12. The carbon from the charcoal plus oxygen forms carbon dioxide and energy. 13. The reaction would be slow, like a wood fire, except for the oxidizing agent. Carbon in a fire must draw oxygen from the air. Saltpeter provides extra oxygen. 14. Potassium nitrate, sulfur, and carbon react together to form nitrogen and carbon dioxide gases and potassium sulfide. 15. The expanding gases, nitrogen and carbon dioxide, provide the propelling action. A Mason Jar is a suitable container. (If you can talk a Mason out of one) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The minimum energy investment to remove a coulomb worth of electrons
(6.24e18) from H2 to get H2+  + e- is 15 joules. The explosive recombination is also 15 joules.
 
The Potential between the "Cluster" and the parent H2+ ion/s at 0.1 meter separation
is 9.0e9 * 1^2/0.1 = 90 Billion Volts!
 
The Force to separate the "Cluster" is 9.0e9 * 1^2/0.01 = 900 billion Newtons = 91.8 Million Tonnes.
 
Black Powder is easier to make (for megaton yields):
 

Here's How:

1.   Originally, black powder was made by mixing equal amounts, by weight, of elemental sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter (potassium nitrate).

2.   The ratio was later adjusted to 75:15:10 saltpeter:sulfur:charcoal. Willow is most often used as the source for the charcoal.

3.   The three components were carefully and completely ground together, resulting in a powder called 'serpentine'.

4.   Serpentine often required re-mixing prior to use. The grinding and mixing process was very, very dangerous!

5.   Some of the hazard was reduced by adding water, wine, or other liquids while grinding and mixing.

6.   The slurry was forced through a screen to make small pellets. The pellets were then allowed to dry.

7.   All it takes is a single spark to ignite gunpowder!

8.   A great deal of smoke is produced when gunpowder is burned. This impairs visibility in battle.

9.   Willow is the traditional wood used to make charcoal, but grapevine, hazel, elder, laurel, and pine cones may be used.

10.   Charcoal is not the only fuel that can be used. Sugar is used instead in many pyrotechnic applications. Too much smoke ruins a firework display!

11.   To summarize, black powder consists of a fuel (charcoal or sugar) and an oxidizer (saltpeter), and sulfur, to allow for a stable reaction.

12.   The carbon from the charcoal plus oxygen forms carbon dioxide and energy.

13.   The reaction would be slow, like a wood fire, except for the oxidizing agent. Carbon in a fire must draw oxygen from the air. Saltpeter provides extra oxygen.

14.   Potassium nitrate, sulfur, and carbon react together to form nitrogen and carbon dioxide gases and potassium sulfide.

15.   The expanding gases, nitrogen and carbon dioxide, provide the propelling action.

A Mason Jar is a suitable container. (If you can talk a Mason out of one)

 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 11:46:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7SIkBVt003758; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:46:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7SIk9lj003736; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:46:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:46:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.19.191] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: The Coming Global Superstorm Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:45:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050828184548.VPTN17147.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Disregard the authors: http://tinyurl.com/89t2a From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 13:18:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7SKHbCC011644; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:17:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7SKHZu5011609; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:17:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:17:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.11.74] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Potential Disaster Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:17:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050828201712.VPZP15611.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As best as I have been able to determine, the survivability criterion for the Superdome is 140 mph sustained winds. With a 1.25 SF, the current windspeed of Katrina at 175 mph results in a 50/50 chance of catastrophic collapse of the structure. Let's home engineers are conservative. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 13:41:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7SKero5020229; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:41:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7SKep2d020212; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:40:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:40:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004901c5ac10$c63407c0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Cost of Energy Independence Declaration in 2005! Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:40:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01C5ABEF.3ECCA6A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <6pFxaB.A.t7E.TFiEDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C5ABEF.3ECCA6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cost of energy independence declaration in 2005! What is needed? A solar electric system, strong enough to provide electricity needs for = a 1,200 sq. ft home using the most modern energy efficient appliances = and lighting, figuring a 50% drop in energy consumption over a typical = American household with no drop in comfort. A 50% drop or more in energy = consumption is very practical in 2005 with off-the-shelf technology from = efficient ACs and refrigerators to florescent lighting (an alternative = energy enthusiasts will live frugally). Let us assume that upgrading all = your appliances will cost $5,000 (not necessary, but it makes achieving = energy independence easier). Also assume that your car, either plug-in = hybrid or electric will be hooked into your home based solar system for = its energy needs. Assume about 140 Kwh of consumption per month for home = energy needs after upgrading to more efficient appliances and lighting = and perhaps another 80 Kwh per month for automobile transportation = needs. A 3 kw solar system for $21,000.00 to provide all the energy needs of = 220 Kwh home (a home that didn't invest the $5,000 in energy efficiency = would have to install a 5 kw solar system for $35,000.00 (which is why = the $5,000 investment in more efficient appliance makes sense). A = home-based solar system is another off-the-shelf technology currently = available. Energy independent heating/cooling could be attained by either expanding = the solar system to 4 kW to provide enough electric for electric heat in = the winter or more reliably, by choosing geothermal. We'll assume most = people would want to go the geothermal route, as it is much more = reliable than the sun in wintertime. A 3 ton geothermal heat pump system = would cost $18,000 for a 1,200 sq. ft. house. A geothermal heat pump = system is another off-the-shelf technology. A plug-in hybrid running on ethanol for transportation. A modified = plug-in Prius would add about $3,000 to the cost of the car. Ethanol is = actually cheaper than gasoline now, so that would be a net cost savings = overall for the little bit of hydrocarbons you needed to extend your = trip. If you work and drive almost exclusively locally, then a full = electric could be sufficient for your travel needs. Of course, in either = case, the electric would be produced via your solar system independently = of the power grid. So, let's add it all up: New energy efficient appliances: $5,000.00 A 3 kw Solar System for electric needs: $21,000.00 A 3 ton Geothermal Heating/Cooling system: $18,000.00 A Plug-In Hybrid: $3,000.00 Your full energy independence in 2005 can be achieved for $47,000.00.=20 State and federal tax credits could reduce this cost some more. My state = offers a 70% rebate for a solar installation. So, my 3 kw solar system = would only cost $6,300. My state also provides a $4,500 rebate for a 3 = ton geothermal system, so, going the geothermal route would cost = $13,500. This would bring my overall energy independence costs down to = $27,800. There you have it, a person living in an energy efficient 1,200 sq. ft. = house in New Jersey in 2005 can go 100% energy independent with = off-the-shelf technology for $27,800!=20 Now, if we were serious about solving our energy problems, we would, as = a society, provide massive subsidies at both the state and federal = levels to move people towards energy independence and build = demonstration projects to prove it can be done. It's all a matter of = putting the pieces together as I demonstrated above. Someone pointed out to me that a cheaper alternative would be to buy = green power from one of the many green power suppliers that provide = renewable energy delivered from the grid and take it from there with = everything else for renewable energy living, thus decreasing your = capital costs for a solar system. But I wanted to frame this example as = an example of grid-free 100% renewable living. How much it would cost in = 2005. Can it be done for a reasonable cost? I say yes! The same cost of = a sizable car payment. At my current utility and gasoline costs, it = would take 10 years for such a system to pay for itself I guess you = would need a new car within that ten year span, but energy prices will = also be increasing over this time period (perhaps dramatically), more = than offsetting the new plug-in hybrid cost (which could be cheaper and = more available when it comes time to replace the car in five years). ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C5ABEF.3ECCA6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cost of energy=20 independence declaration in 2005! What is needed?

A solar = electric=20 system, strong enough to provide electricity needs for a 1,200 sq. ft = home using=20 the most modern energy efficient appliances and lighting, figuring a 50% = drop in=20 energy consumption over a typical American household with no drop in = comfort. A=20 50% drop or more in energy consumption is very practical in 2005 with=20 off-the-shelf technology from efficient ACs and refrigerators to = florescent=20 lighting (an alternative energy enthusiasts will live frugally). Let us = assume=20 that upgrading all your appliances will cost $5,000 (not necessary, but = it makes=20 achieving energy independence easier). Also assume that your car, either = plug-in=20 hybrid or electric will be hooked into your home based solar system for = its=20 energy needs. Assume about 140 Kwh of consumption per month for home = energy=20 needs after upgrading to more efficient appliances and lighting and = perhaps=20 another 80 Kwh per month for automobile transportation needs.

A 3 = kw=20 solar system for $21,000.00 to provide all the energy needs of 220 Kwh = home (a=20 home that didn't invest the $5,000 in energy efficiency would have to = install a=20 5 kw solar system for $35,000.00 (which is why the $5,000 investment in = more=20 efficient appliance makes sense). A home-based solar system is another=20 off-the-shelf technology currently available.

Energy independent=20 heating/cooling could be attained by either expanding the solar system = to 4 kW=20 to provide enough electric for electric heat in the winter or more = reliably, by=20 choosing geothermal. We'll assume most people would want to go the = geothermal=20 route, as it is much more reliable than the sun in wintertime. A 3 ton=20 geothermal heat pump system would cost $18,000 for a 1,200 sq. ft. = house. A=20 geothermal heat pump system is another off-the-shelf = technology.

A=20 plug-in hybrid running on ethanol for transportation. A modified plug-in = Prius=20 would add about $3,000 to the cost of the car. Ethanol is actually = cheaper than=20 gasoline now, so that would be a net cost savings overall for the little = bit of=20 hydrocarbons you needed to extend your trip. If you work and drive = almost=20 exclusively locally, then a full electric could be sufficient for your = travel=20 needs. Of course, in either case, the electric would be produced via = your solar=20 system independently of the power grid.

So, let's add it all=20 up:

New energy efficient appliances: $5,000.00
A 3 kw Solar = System for=20 electric needs: $21,000.00
A 3 ton Geothermal Heating/Cooling system: = $18,000.00
A Plug-In Hybrid: $3,000.00

Your full energy = independence=20 in 2005 can be achieved for $47,000.00.

State and federal tax = credits=20 could reduce this cost some more. My state offers a 70% rebate for a = solar=20 installation. So, my 3 kw solar system would only cost $6,300. My state = also=20 provides a $4,500 rebate for a 3 ton geothermal system, so, going the = geothermal=20 route would cost $13,500. This would bring my overall energy = independence costs=20 down to $27,800.

There you have it, a person living in an energy=20 efficient 1,200 sq. ft. house in New Jersey in 2005 can go 100% energy=20 independent with off-the-shelf technology for $27,800!

Now, if = we were=20 serious about solving our energy problems, we would, as a society, = provide=20 massive subsidies at both the state and federal levels to move people = towards=20 energy independence and build demonstration projects to prove it can be = done.=20 It's all a matter of putting the pieces together as I demonstrated=20 above.

Someone pointed out to me that a cheaper alternative would = be to=20 buy green power from one of the many green power suppliers that provide=20 renewable energy delivered from the grid and take it from there = with=20 everything else for renewable energy living, thus decreasing your = capital costs=20 for a solar system. But I wanted to frame this example as an example of=20 grid-free 100% renewable living. How much it would cost in 2005. Can it = be done=20 for a reasonable cost? I say yes! The same cost of a sizable car = payment. At my=20 current utility and gasoline costs, it would take 10 years for such a = system to=20 pay for itself I guess you would need a new car within that ten year = span, but=20 energy prices will also be increasing over this time period (perhaps=20 dramatically), more than offsetting the new plug-in hybrid cost (which = could be=20 cheaper and more available when it comes time to replace the car in five = years).
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C5ABEF.3ECCA6A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 13:53:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7SKqrEC026446; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:53:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7SKqpXq026426; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:52:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:52:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.11.74] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Potential Disaster Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:52:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050828205231.VWWK15611.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > Let's home engineers are conservative. Hope. Hope. Not 'home'. Jeeze, another freudian. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 13:59:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7SKxJ8j029097; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:59:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7SKxHMl029080; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:59:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:59:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005101c5ac13$56b86b90$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <20050828205231.VWWK15611.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Potential Disaster Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:59:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This looks like a very serious storm. Let's hope the loss of life is a bare minimum. I hope people got out of the way of this storm. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Potential Disaster >> From: Terry Blanton > >> Let's home engineers are conservative. > > Hope. Hope. Not 'home'. Jeeze, another freudian. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 18:29:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7T1SsaL008084; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:29:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7T1SqRK008070; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:28:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:28:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050828182827.018fd440 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:28:57 -0700 To: "John Coviello" , From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: ICENES 2005 In-Reply-To: <000501c5ab73$ff5c3970$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050827184350.02997ef0 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nothing exciting, just that CF was very well-received. More in NET #12 At 09:58 PM 8/27/2005 -0400, John Coviello wrote: >Steve, > >Any good nuggets from the ICENES conference. Oil looks poised to go over >$70 as Katrina is now a monster and is heading for the oil platforms off >Louisana. > >John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 28 22:31:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7T5VHJ6016591; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:31:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7T5VFRg016559; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:31:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:31:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <431299B4.3030307 iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:14:28 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulders, Puthoff & Sarfatti re ZPE References: <4311AF5F.6070505@sumosound.de> In-Reply-To: <4311AF5F.6070505 sumosound.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The military are favoring smaller and smaller bomb now that we have GPS accuracy. Big EVO bombs are unlikely. By the way wont it tend to work like lightening in a bottle? Zzzot instead of Boom. More like a Traveller plasma bazooka than a nuke. Michael Huffman wrote: >Mark Goldes wrote: > > >>Vo, >> >>More to ponder. Disturbing. >> >>http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=11751_0_5_0_C >> >> > >Considering the background of all of the participants in this debate, I >would pidgeonhole this one as something similar to the weapons >development disinformation that was propagated during the Reagan >administration. Sarfatti is a headgamer/prankster of no small fame who, >as far as I know, has never contributed anything of any value to the >work of cosmology, other than stimulating debate. Debate is obviously >necessary this field, as the blind acceptance of what Puthoff, Feinmann, >or any other cosmologist might proffer would stagnate independant >thought and progress. If Sarfatti can demonstrate his theory in the >real world, then he deserves a great deal of praise. If not, then I >would not be too bothered with what he is saying. > >As for developing an EVO weapon, you have to remember, that it took the >military over 60 years to come up with a usable microwave weapon, which >by comparison, is fairly primitive. I think it is premature to the >point of being a waste of time to be worrying about a terrorist boarding >an airplane carrying EVO bombs. > >Knuke > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 00:34:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7T7YS4P027318; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:34:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7T7YQIb027297; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:34:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:34:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050829073410.009a6db4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:34:10 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Hutchison, etc. Resent-Message-ID: <8NNplC.A.bqG.BqrEDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Hutchison effect, Shoulders EVOs, positronium, the materon, spiral rather than circular field lines around a current carrying wire, the hydraulic jump - all these are beginning to jell into a single picture - and at the heart of this picture is, appropriately enough 8-), the Vortex. The ring vortex in the case of the Hutchison's Shoulders effect and the open vortex in the case of EM fields. And what is the connective tissue for these phenomena? It has to be vacuum polarization! After all, for all its deficiencies quantum mechanics does at least recognise that the vacuum is not absolute. If it were this would contradict the uncertainty associated with both time and energy content. QM even recognises, inter alia, that space is filled with positron/electron pairs. What it fails to recognise is that positron/electron pairs do not annihilate each other but merely form a depleted mass particle (the materon) with neutral charge (obviously) and neutral mass [less obviously 8-) ]. Under electromagnetic fields these particles are strained. Perhaps I should put that another way. Electromagnetic field represents the strain in the materon particle field. At a larger scale fractal level one might compare it with the strain in the atomic field one sees on a photoelastic bench specimen when viewed with polarized light. The positron and electron of ortho- and para- positronium can be viewed as two comets circling each other and dragging a tail of strained materons behind them. They can be viewed as the seed of a Beta-atmosphere vortex. Under the right macro stimulation these mini vortices will grow and grow to larger and larger vortex tubes consisting of incipient positron-electron chains storing ever increasing amounts of strain energy. Because charge, like temperature, is asymmetric the number of electrons and positrons will not be equal. N + delta-N electrons will be needed to balance N positrons, say, where N and delta-N are both positive integers. Therefore the positron/electron multiplex will manifest some aspect of charge - but not a lot. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer =========================================== quae est ista quae progreditur quasi aurora consurgens pulchra ut luna electa ut sol terribilis ut acies ordinata =========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 04:32:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TBVaI6014853; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 04:31:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TBVUAk014794; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 04:31:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 04:31:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4312F1FE.90101 sumosound.de> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:31:10 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulders, Puthoff & Sarfatti re ZPE References: <4311AF5F.6070505@sumosound.de> <431299B4.3030307@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <431299B4.3030307 iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > The military are favoring smaller and smaller bomb now that we have GPS > accuracy. Big EVO bombs are unlikely. By the way wont it tend to work > like lightening in a bottle? Zzzot instead of Boom. More like a > Traveller plasma bazooka than a nuke. Shoulders envisions a day when his EVOs can be collected and bottled. If that were possible, the math suggests that the stored energy would be large enough to actually cause an explosion, much like an over-charged lithium-ion battery or an over-charged capacitor. I don't have any problem with that idea. To date however, he has not been able to collect or bottle his EVOs, and the ones that he has produced were relatively small, at least that was the state of his research the last time I looked at it. EVOs are similar, if not identical, to ball lightning, and Ken was producing these by making an arc with a pointed electrode. This limited the size of the EVO that was coming off of the tip. Others have observed plasma events in cells that electrodes with sharp corners or tears in them. This indicates that the electrode geometry is responsible for the formation of the EVO. It also poses a limitation on how big they can get. If the EVOs cannot be collected and contained, which I think is the case, then their energy release upon coming into contact with something else would be limited to the energy contained in each charge cluster, and the energy would behave much like it would for ball lightning. This is my speculation of course, and I haven't looked at his work for a while. He may have developed a way to contain many EVOs in a small space - I don't know, but I doubt it. I do find his work quite interesting, and I think there is a lot to be learned here, but I don't see it challenging the current paradigm in any way. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 05:42:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TCfg7D014408; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:41:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TCfb92014339; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:41:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:41:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Hutchison, etc. Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 8:41:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050829124116.XPV25946.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <1d496C.A._fD.AKwEDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Grimer > terribilis ut acies ordinata You've met my wife? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 05:45:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TCj9o5015875; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:45:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TCj8Ym015840; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:45:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:45:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c5ac97$6b57c300$d5027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Hutchison,etc. Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:44:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5AC6D.818BC240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_93, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5AC6D.818BC240 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5AC6D.818BC240" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5AC6D.818BC240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote... The Hutchison effect, Shoulders EVOs, positronium,=20 the materon, spiral rather than circular field lines=20 around a current carrying wire, the hydraulic jump=20 - all these are beginning to jell into a single=20 picture - and at the heart of this picture is,=20 appropriately enough 8-), the Vortex.=20 The ring vortex in the case of the Hutchison's=20 Shoulders effect and the open vortex in the case=20 of EM fields. I love it.. please continue ... interesting, surprisingly, the proof may = be the color spectrum. The color spectrum could verify the vortex = configuration. Ever see a rainbow that was a complete circle? Once in = New Mexico west of Tumcucari. A complete series of 360 degree circles = within circles. Later I realized I was seeing a type of " cone". Grimer has an explanation for why God uses " colors" in these events. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5AC6D.818BC240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer wrote...

The Hutchison effect, Shoulders EVOs, positronium,
the materon, = spiral=20 rather than circular field lines
around a current carrying wire, the = hydraulic jump
- all these are beginning to jell into a single =
picture -=20 and at the heart of this picture is,
appropriately enough 8-), the = Vortex.=20
The ring vortex in the case of the Hutchison's
Shoulders effect = and the=20 open vortex in the case
of EM fields.

I love it.. please continue ... interesting, surprisingly, the=20 proof may be the color spectrum. The color = spectrum could=20 verify the vortex configuration. Ever see a rainbow that was a = complete=20 circle?  Once in New Mexico west of Tumcucari. A complete series = of =20 360 degree circles within circles. Later I realized I was seeing a type = of "=20 cone".

Grimer has an explanation for why God uses " colors" in these = events.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5AC6D.818BC240-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5AC6D.818BC240 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c5ac97$6a465300$d5027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5AC6D.818BC240-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 06:40:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TDeI15014625; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:40:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TDeElO014568; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:40:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:40:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050829093921.04c371a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:39:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Researcher needs heavy water and other materials In-Reply-To: <22383156.1125176473124.JavaMail.root mswamui-valley.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <22383156.1125176473124.JavaMail.root mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I left out Richard's e-mail address: Guycrich aol.com - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 06:56:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TDu5hF020834; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:56:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TDu4mI020805; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:56:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:56:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: The Aluminium Battery Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:55:40 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D73D6B CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The Aluminium Battery Thread-Index: AcWqFZDeKvDssD2QQFqvWxVvRZ0E9ACi4ywg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2005 13:55:40.0777 (UTC) FILETIME=[5781E590:01C5ACA1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7TDtjrb020577 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I googled "Ken Susslick" but nothing came up. I did wonder about the idea of getting an extremely fine powder squashed against a conductive wall by spinning a tank of the stuff. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Huffman [mailto:knuke sumosound.de] Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 4:09 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Aluminium Battery Zell, Chris wrote: > Holy crap - and I thought 40% efficiency from the zinc air battery was > lousy. > > Can a battery be made outta stuff that's highly reactive? Like > aluminum and bromine? > > I guess that's the limiting factor with chemical batteries - heat. I > wonder if there's any way to reduce the heat output while pushing more > electrons? Moin Chris, Check out Ken Susslick's work with NiMH at the U of Chicago. He was making some pretty outrageous claims for his micropowders. Last I looked, he had not yet made any deals with a manufacturer, but that may have changed. It looks like some of the manufacturers are beginning to come up with solutions to the electrode problems. That may have been what was hindering the progress with Susslick, I don't know. Knuke Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 06:59:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TDxJZs022883; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:59:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TDxIJs022863; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:59:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:59:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: The Aluminium Battery Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:58:59 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D73D78 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The Aluminium Battery Thread-Index: AcWqFZDeKvDssD2QQFqvWxVvRZ0E9ACjAy8g From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2005 13:58:59.0587 (UTC) FILETIME=[CE01E530:01C5ACA1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7TDwwg3022665 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I liked aluminum bromide because it has a low melting point - which means somebody might stand a chance of electrolysing the stuff back into metal. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Huffman [mailto:knuke sumosound.de] Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 4:09 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Aluminium Battery Zell, Chris wrote: > Holy crap - and I thought 40% efficiency from the zinc air battery was > lousy. > > Can a battery be made outta stuff that's highly reactive? Like > aluminum and bromine? > > I guess that's the limiting factor with chemical batteries - heat. I > wonder if there's any way to reduce the heat output while pushing more > electrons? Moin Chris, Check out Ken Susslick's work with NiMH at the U of Chicago. He was making some pretty outrageous claims for his micropowders. Last I looked, he had not yet made any deals with a manufacturer, but that may have changed. It looks like some of the manufacturers are beginning to come up with solutions to the electrode problems. That may have been what was hindering the progress with Susslick, I don't know. Knuke Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 08:23:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TFNRrM003996; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:23:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TFNPR1003976; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:23:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:23:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050829111941.04af49d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:22:59 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Prius hybrid car performance test In-Reply-To: <48vhmp$17g16sg mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <48vhmp$17g16sg mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Regarding this display from the Prius dashboard computer screen: http://john1701a.com/prius/photos/PriusConsumption_CloseUp.jpg OrionWorks wrote: >I was looking at the JPG graphic and I was wondering what those yellow >diamond shaped symbols with the "E" in the middle mean? As shown at the top of the screen, those indicate 50 Wh of energy "regenerated;" that is, recovered during coasting or braking. It is a little unclear whether total efficiency (MPG) includes the regenerated energy, but I think it does. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 08:27:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TFQdcw005491; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:26:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TFQbwG005454; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:26:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:26:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43132915.5050108 sumosound.de> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:26:13 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Aluminium Battery References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D73D6B CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D73D6B CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Chris, Mea culpa. Too much coffee, and too many s's. Try this URL http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/britannica.html Knuke Zell, Chris wrote: > I googled "Ken Susslick" but nothing came up. I did wonder about the > idea of getting an extremely fine powder squashed against a conductive > wall > by spinning a tank of the stuff. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Huffman [mailto:knuke sumosound.de] > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 4:09 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: The Aluminium Battery > > Zell, Chris wrote: > >>Holy crap - and I thought 40% efficiency from the zinc air battery was > > >>lousy. >> >>Can a battery be made outta stuff that's highly reactive? Like >>aluminum and bromine? >> >>I guess that's the limiting factor with chemical batteries - heat. I >>wonder if there's any way to reduce the heat output while pushing more > > >>electrons? > > > Moin Chris, > > Check out Ken Susslick's work with NiMH at the U of Chicago. He was > making some pretty outrageous claims for his micropowders. Last I > looked, he had not yet made any deals with a manufacturer, but that may > have changed. It looks like some of the manufacturers are beginning to > come up with solutions to the electrode problems. That may have been > what was hindering the progress with Susslick, I don't know. > > Knuke > > Knuke > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 09:13:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TGCg2X028899; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:12:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TGCfHu028888; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:12:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:12:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003701c5acb4$6cee1440$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050829073410.009a6db4 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Implications of an epo-BEC Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:12:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01C5AC79.BFFB60B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C5AC79.BFFB60B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Song-of-songs....same melody, different melodrama ... your remember how = that bad-boy Elvis turned "O Sole Mio" into "It's Now or Never" ? =20 (There is an eco-message in those song-titles, somewhere) and in the = following elaboration of a pregant-paragraph. In a previous post, Frank Grimer mentioned ortho-para Ps: =20 > The positron and electron of ortho- and para- > positronium can be viewed as two comets circling=20 > each other and dragging a tail of strained materons=20 > behind them. They can be viewed as the seed of a=20 > Beta-atmosphere vortex. Under the right macro=20 > stimulation these mini vortices will grow and grow=20 > to larger and larger vortex tubes consisting of=20 > incipient positron-electron chains storing ever=20 > increasing amounts of strain energy.=20 Essentially positronium (in the form of a BEC) is the most elegant way = in which Don Hotson verbalizes his interpretation of Dirac - and the = aether - which is the epo field =3D beta-aether =3D ZPF=3D lattice of = virtual Ps. To my way of thinking this is the most important = (under-recognized) insight in all of physics. The BEC or Bose Einstein Condensate is a complicated subject which = requires more study than anyone can address in a short posting (even if = one were capable of writing short postings). The main point is that in = any single geometric space, a very large number of identical items can = be overlaid, loosing individual identity in favor of group identity. = That is an over-simplification, but it highlights three key points.=20 First, the intrinsic stability of this space demands *uniformity,* = consequently certain forms of external "stressing" can produce = self-correcting forces and pressures, over and above the input stress, = because "uniformity" is the perquisite of the BEC state and will be = favored. The ironic thing about the aether is that you can fly a jet = through it without notice, but give it a little nudge at a frequency = that it doesn't "appreciate", and strange things will happen.=20 The second key point is that there is both "real" and "virtual" = positronium in nature, but almost all research assumes that the = characteristics are the same. This may not be true. In fact, it is a = terrible assumption. There is the distinct possibility (third point) = that the "virtual" state is "outside" of our 3-space (because, for one = thing - the Ps which is layered within it has previously already = "annihilated" turning that word into the culprit for misunderstanding). The third point is all that stuff about 3-space and interdimensionality = and "lack of" true annihilation.. Suffice it to say, this understanding of the epo-BEC and the description = of Hotson could be extremely important - to the extent that one intends = to get a good grasp on how ZPE might be harnessed. The idea of very = "high frequencies" is often mentioned in this context, but that can be = deceiving. The most important factoid for harnessing ZPE may relate to = stressing the ortho-para Ps structure of the epo-BEC. High frequencies, = in the Puthoff sense, are quite possibly an *effect* and not a *cause* = of ZPE interaction. Positronium of course, (Ps) represents a bound state between a positron = and an electron, which can be treated formally as an hydrogen atom. In = the case of the epo-field the state is outside of our 3-space however - = and "virtual". Almost all Ps is virtual. Any that is not, soon will be. = The Schr=C3=B6dinger equation for positronium is identical to that for = hydrogen. One can imagine, further modifying Puthoff, that the epo-BEC = lattice itself is what keeps the electron from collapse into the proton. = That virtual electron in the virtual Ps has already annihilated once and = cannot do so again. The ionization energy of positronium is 6.8 eV but there is evidence = that this energy is often coalesced in our 3-space the form of two 3.4 = eV photons, but occasionally is seen in much higher multiples - 13.6 eV = 27.2eV and 54.4 eV. The largest error of Mills' theory may be in failing = to see this. =20 The implication of a BEC is that a cascade of energies in certain = multiples is favored. The ant-neutrino, often said to be a "particle" of = mass-energy =3D 3.4 eV may instead be related to an epo-BEC emission. Positronium is basically formed in two states, 75 % as ortho-positronium = with parallel spins (triplet state constituting 100% of the aether) and = 25 % as para-positronium with antiparallel spins (singlet state). The = energy difference between these spin states (hyperfine splitting) is = only 8.4x10-4 eV, but again that can be deceiving because in any = angstrom of space there can exist a large number of epos and all can = emit in synchronicity as a BEC. A few will cyclicly "bulge out" of the = confines of BEC 1-space into our 3-space on a regular basis. The lifetime of the virtual pair is only 10^-21 seconds, before = vanishing back into 1-space. In constrast, the lifetime of "real" = ortho-Ps has been found to be about 141.88 ns (Nico et al. 1990) over a = thousand times longer than para - and this could be a very critical = factor in choosing how to "stress" the aether - and also a possible key = to understanding how the virtual state can be used for real energy. A = frequency of about 7 MHz or harmonics thereof, might figure into the = picture somewhere - as a 'homing' beacon? Para-positronium annihilates = intrinsically (i.e. annihilation between the particles forming the = virtual Ps state) mainly into two =CE=B3-rays of 511 keV, but these are = seldom seen in experiments. However, ortho-positronium annihilates into = three =CE=B3-rays in order to conserve spin. This 340+ keV gamma can be = a key identification factor in certain LENR experiments, if it should = turn up ;-)=20 And... as for the Casimir - Virtual Ps can be found in a solid, in a = transient but self-trapped state, i.e. the positronium lattice creates = by itself a temporal "cage" for very short overlapping durations by = sequentially "pushing away" the surrounding atoms. This force can = translate into what is called the Casimir force - not the "blocking" of = certain high frequencies as is the way it is sometimes stated..=20 Jones BTW eco-sophia-philes, the name "Solomon" (Sol-Om-On) means Sun.=20 Who is this that cometh up from the desert, flowing with delights? No, = no...Solomon sez ... this is no woman, no worldly treasure... She = understands the tricks of language and the solving of riddles; She = knows the meaning of signs and portents... her name is Sophia....=20 ....next installment of "Riddles of Free-Energy," the serial: Sophie's = Choice.... ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C5AC79.BFFB60B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Song-of-songs....same melody, different = melodrama=20 ... your remember how that bad-boy Elvis turned "O Sole Mio" into "It's = Now or=20 Never" ? 

(There is an eco-message in those song-titles, = somewhere)=20 and in the following elaboration of a pregant-paragraph.

In a = previous=20 post, Frank Grimer mentioned ortho-para Ps:
 
> The = positron and=20 electron of ortho- and para-
> positronium can be viewed as two = comets=20 circling
> each other and dragging a tail of strained materons =
>=20 behind them. They can be viewed as the seed of a
> = Beta-atmosphere=20 vortex. Under the right macro
> stimulation these mini vortices = will grow=20 and grow
> to larger and larger vortex tubes consisting of =
>=20 incipient positron-electron chains storing ever
> increasing = amounts of=20 strain energy.

Essentially positronium (in the form of a BEC) is = the=20 most elegant way in which Don Hotson verbalizes his interpretation of = Dirac -=20 and the aether - which is the epo field =3D beta-aether =3D ZPF=3D = lattice of virtual=20 Ps. To my way of thinking this is the most important (under-recognized) = insight=20 in all of physics.

The BEC or Bose Einstein Condensate is a = complicated=20 subject which requires more study than anyone can address in a short = posting=20 (even if one were capable of writing short postings). The main point is = that in=20 any single geometric space, a very large number of identical items can = be=20 overlaid, loosing individual identity in favor of group identity. That = is an=20 over-simplification, but it highlights three key points.

First, = the=20 intrinsic stability of this space demands *uniformity,* consequently = certain=20 forms of external "stressing" can produce self-correcting forces and = pressures,=20 over and above the input stress, because "uniformity" is the perquisite = of the=20 BEC state and will be favored. The ironic thing about the aether is that = you can=20 fly a jet through it without notice, but give it a little nudge at a = frequency=20 that it doesn't "appreciate", and strange things will happen. =

The second=20 key point is that there is both "real" and "virtual" positronium in = nature, but=20 almost all research assumes that the characteristics are the same. This = may not=20 be true. In fact, it is a terrible assumption. There is the distinct = possibility=20 (third point) that the "virtual" state is "outside" of our 3-space = (because, for=20 one thing - the Ps which is layered within it has previously already=20 "annihilated" turning that word into the culprit for=20 misunderstanding).

The third point is all that stuff about = 3-space and=20 interdimensionality and "lack of" true annihilation..

Suffice it = to say,=20 this understanding of the epo-BEC and the description of Hotson could be = extremely important - to the extent that one intends to get a good grasp = on how=20 ZPE might be harnessed. The idea of very "high frequencies" is often = mentioned=20 in this context, but that can be deceiving. The most important factoid = for=20 harnessing ZPE may relate to stressing the ortho-para Ps structure of = the=20 epo-BEC. High frequencies, in the Puthoff sense, are quite possibly an = *effect*=20 and not a *cause* of ZPE interaction.

Positronium of course, (Ps) = represents a bound state between a positron and an electron, which can = be=20 treated formally as an hydrogen atom. In the case of the epo-field the = state is=20 outside of our 3-space however - and "virtual". Almost all Ps is = virtual. Any=20 that is not, soon will be. The Schr=C3=B6dinger equation for positronium = is identical=20 to that for hydrogen. One can imagine, further modifying Puthoff, that = the=20 epo-BEC lattice itself is what keeps the electron from collapse into the = proton.=20 That virtual electron in the virtual Ps has already annihilated once and = cannot=20 do so again.

The ionization energy of positronium is 6.8 eV but = there is=20 evidence that this energy is often coalesced in our 3-space the form of = two 3.4=20 eV photons, but occasionally is seen in much higher multiples - 13.6 eV = 27.2eV=20 and 54.4 eV. The largest error of Mills' theory may be in failing to see = this.
 
The implication of a BEC is that a cascade of = energies in=20 certain multiples is favored. The ant-neutrino, often said to be a = "particle" of=20 mass-energy =3D 3.4 eV may instead be related to an epo-BEC=20 emission.

Positronium is basically formed in two states, 75 % as=20 ortho-positronium with parallel spins (triplet state constituting 100% = of the=20 aether) and 25 % as para-positronium with antiparallel spins (singlet = state).=20 The energy difference between these spin states (hyperfine splitting) is = only=20 8.4x10-4 eV, but again that can be deceiving because in any angstrom of = space=20 there can exist a large number of epos and all can emit in synchronicity = as a=20 BEC. A few will cyclicly "bulge out" of the confines of BEC 1-space into = our=20 3-space on a regular basis.

The lifetime of the virtual pair is = only=20 10^-21 seconds, before vanishing back into 1-space. In constrast, the = lifetime=20 of "real" ortho-Ps has been found to be about 141.88 ns (Nico et al. = 1990) over=20 a thousand times longer than para - and this could be a very critical = factor in=20 choosing how to "stress" the aether - and also a possible key to = understanding=20 how the virtual state can be used for real energy. A frequency of about = 7 MHz or=20 harmonics thereof, might figure into the picture somewhere - as a = 'homing'=20 beacon? Para-positronium annihilates intrinsically (i.e. annihilation = between=20 the particles forming the virtual Ps state) mainly into two =CE=B3-rays = of 511 keV,=20 but these are seldom seen in experiments. However, = ortho-positronium=20 annihilates into three =CE=B3-rays in order to conserve spin. This 340+ = keV gamma can=20 be a key identification factor in certain LENR experiments, if it should = turn up=20 ;-)

And... as for the Casimir - Virtual Ps can be found in a = solid, in a=20 transient but self-trapped state, i.e. the positronium lattice creates = by itself=20 a temporal "cage" for very short overlapping durations by sequentially = "pushing=20 away" the surrounding atoms. This force can translate into what is = called the=20 Casimir force - not the "blocking" of certain high frequencies as is the = way it=20 is sometimes stated..

Jones

BTW  eco-sophia-philes, = the name=20 "Solomon" (Sol-Om-On) means Sun.

Who is this that cometh up from = the=20 desert, flowing with delights? No, no...Solomon sez ... this is no = woman, no=20 worldly treasure... She understands the tricks of language and the = solving of=20 riddles;  She knows the meaning of signs and portents... her name = is=20 Sophia....
 
....next installment of "Riddles of = Free-Energy,"=20 the serial: Sophie's Choice....
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C5AC79.BFFB60B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 10:03:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TH2Xou032526; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:02:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TH2Wva032473; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:02:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:02:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050829123021.04af40b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:02:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New Republic attacks cold fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <08ie3C.A.O7H.o-zEDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is an article reprinted from The New Republic: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16414974%5E28737,00.html Quote: ". . . It's not hard to imagine scams such as cold fusion or the Scientologist critique of psychiatric drugs gaining ground in a world where science's ability to identify knowledge has been undermined." (This article is also available for subscribers at the New Republic web site.) As long as the mainstream press attacks cold fusion in this manner, I see little hope of public acceptance or large-scale investment. I sent a short message to the editor (letters tnr.com), but I do not expect anyone there will read it or respond. It is ironic that this attack is, itself, a good example of the anti-science hysteria the author decries in the article. It is self-referential, or recursive. Many so-called skeptical books and magazines fit this pattern. They are skeptical of all beliefs except their own. For example, they accept uncritically and without proof the notion put forth in this article, that people are more uneducated and more superstitious than they used to be, and that whacko nonsense such as Creationism are more of a threat to science and society as a whole than they used to be. Carl Sagan wrote a book about this theme, "The Demon Haunted World." I did not see a single chapter in it with what I would consider hard evidence to support his thesis. He assumes that things are going to hell in a handbasket, and he assembles all kinds of anecdotal stories from current sources to support this notion, but he does not look for anecdotal evidence from 1920 or 1880 that might show the same level of widespread irrationality, and he never even tries to find statistical social science evidence of a trend. Of course anyone can see that Creationism is in the news these days, and it has support from the President and others in high places, which it did not used to have. For all I know, it may be that people are becoming less rational, and whacko ideas are causing more damage than they used to. But it seems equally likely to me that people drop the subject and go on to some other fad in six months. As Ed Storms has pointed out, the stakes are higher these days; people have more power to mess things up, so nonsense may cause more damage than it used to. But that does not mean that people are more likely to believe nonsense. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 12:51:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TJp8Yf009344; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:51:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TJp6in009283; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:51:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:51:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: What is an EVO Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:50:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050829195045.DZWZ25946.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charge Clusters, Electromagnetic Vortex, etc. What they are in Ken Shoulders' own words: WHAT’S AN EVO? by Ken Shoulders Intent of This Writing: An EVO (exotic vacuum object) is just another name in a long line of names for a new electronic effect. In the past, it has been called an EV (Electromagnetic Vortex or Electrum Validum for strong electron), charge cluster (this could be just a piece of dirt with no net charge) and CCT for charge cluster technology. Whatever it is called, the effect can best be characterized by how it is measured using instruments capable of interpenetration in terms of somewhat similar phenomenon. The nearest class of instruments with useful capabilities is those used for measuring the properties of electrons and ions. Using these, we will assemble a series of observations characterizing the observable entity properties that are most pertinent to new energy and propulsion uses. Use of contemporary buzzwords like zero point energy, space energy or ether and other areas of mystery will be avoided here as they might falsely bias judgment of the true events being measured. It will not even be assumed that the entity being interrogated is an assembly of electrons, even though electrons were put in during formation and an equivalent number of electrons were output at the time of dishevelment. This writing is thus an attempt to analyze the actions and basic characteristics of the entity while being as free as possible of preconceived notions about its structure. This aim is heavily biased toward the entities use instead of its name or theory of operation. They Are Forceful: A witness plate is a target for the entity that can be taken out of the apparatus and examined for interaction with the entity. Although one would naively assume all effects derived from receiving the impact of the strike would be thermal, experience has shown that this is strictly not so. Many of the effects are an entirely different form of non-thermal material dishevelment due to the peculiar properties of the bombarding entity. One of the effects that can still be trusted is the measurement of peak force against the witness plate as certain measurement methods can be arranged that do not directly involve the entity. By using these methods, it can be ascertained with certainty that the peak force due to encountering an entity being measured has easily surpassed the tensile strength limits of the witness plate. When calculations are done to see what the energy balance is to produce the impact mark, using input measured electron number and velocity, it is clear that the effects seen are not tractable due to inertia. Ballistic laws are strictly not followed and are off by a factor of thousands. As an example, an entity traveling at 0.1c, composed of about 1012 electrons, accelerates a slug of mass 50 material, measuring 20 micrometers in diameter by 100 micrometers long, to a mean velocity of about 107 centimeters per second. Indications are that a very high force is available due to motion of the entity and that this force is directly indicated by this measurement technique. As a second point of verification of this enormous force, along with another peculiar property of material entrainment, is the way a simple electrical impedance mismatch can reverse the direction of travel for the entity along with the entire load of material it is carrying. This happens when the entity of a particular energy or type creates a hole in a target boring material, such as SiC, backed with a metal foil that is, in turn, spaced from another anode material. This mismatch produces an intense, point flash of light, having a diameter of about 5 micrometers, resulting from the reversal of the entity with its load, followed by high velocity ejection of the load material in the opposite direction originally traveled by the ensemble. Not only is the force of the entity high in the forward or original direction it was launched but also it almost instantly reverses direction and applies the force in the opposite direction—all under electrical control afforded by the local structure instead of external dictates. The magnitude of the control voltage has not been directly measured, due to the very short time involved, but is not expected to be above the 100-volt range, as assessed from the lack of thin film dielectric breakdown when the film is less than 1,000 atoms thick. The data and photos discussed in the above two paragraphs can be seen in the paper entitled, “Charge Clusters in Action” by Ken Shoulders. This paper is available for download from the web at: http://svn.net/krscfs/. This entity is thus more forceful than any condensed material can withstand and it is controlled by a minute amount of input power. They Hang Together: In order to array adequate quantities of this specialized electronic substance for the purpose of propelling large quantities of material and for generation of high powered electrical and light sources, it is necessary for the entities to form into these large structures without the adverse effects of space charge repulsion. They do this admirably as can be seen from photos of witness plates that caught them in flight and recorded their binding arrangement just before capture. Examples of this can be seen in the paper entitled, “Permittivity Transitions”, by Ken Shoulders, also available for download from the web at the above address. This demonstration of cohesiveness must be taken to the next step of reducing the velocity of the ensemble and collecting more material while also allowing a cooling action to occur, which removes rogue modes that do not control as desired. This is a purification step and the Paul type of electrodynamic trap is ideally suited to the purpose. Once the accumulation and cooling is complete, the material is transferred to the operational site. In the case of a single axis, bidirectional thruster or propulsion unit, this device can be as simple as a sealed pair of parallel plates of dielectric material having a spacing of a single unit of charged material between them, about 0.001 inches, with conductive electrodes applied on the outside to present the control field. Electrical and optical generators are essentially the same structure with specialized electrodes and filling to enhance the motional aspect of the contained charge. In many ways, these devices closely parallel piezoelectric devices but having exceptionally high coupling coefficients and efficiency in that they are over-unity efficiency, are self-driven and function without input power from our usual sources. Why Would They Act This Way: There are several unique properties to the portion of space we occupy on this planet and nearby neighborhood. One of the most obvious curiosities is the way we have reached a charge neutral or charge balanced condition, with the exception of an occasional thunderstorm, fractoemission cracked rock, and rubbing hair on amber. The driving force behind this is that electrons really don’t want to be alone. At the first opportunity available, they join up with something. In the case of elements, they readily join the nucleus, with its positive charge invitation, until a balance is obtained. Oddly enough, and this is not common knowledge, they also join each other as long as the spacing is as close as one atomic diameter or so. That is what happens when an abrupt, high field process, like a gas discharge or field emission, forcibly ejects electrons from a conductor at sufficiently high current density. Having once achieved this uncommon union for our portion of space, the electrons stick together until the marriage is violated by a sufficient quantity of conductor where they are forced to return to their more common state as an atom. But while in this little package, whatever it is called, very delightful things happen that can be used to our advantage. At this point all we have is a controllable entity capable of extraordinary thrust and using trivial control power. Some of the requirements for this condition seem to be connected to its large size, being larger than a single electron, and the apparent closeness of the substructure, assuming there are internal parts. Curiously, the critical number density of the substructure matches Avogadro’s number. To a first approximation, the parts within are spaced the same as if they were in an atomic lattice. What’s Its Name: Although there are many more measured properties having to do with the ability to mask charge and shift mass, the above statements used alone are enough to allow proceeding to the next stage of development without undue risk of the work being stranded for lack of data. Do we mystify the source of this effect with an elaborate name or just give it a bland name and use it? There is now a wondrously long list of things we do not have to know or do to proceed with a process for passively overcoming the force of gravity—as the entity we are talking about is thrusting against some unseen medium that appears stationary and this medium is not the material it is boring through. Call it what you will, the medium is there and we can now engage it in a very forceful way. No more beating on the air or throwing material overboard to fly! Who cares what its name is? Use it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 12:53:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TJrBTw010363; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:53:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TJrAKj010336; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:53:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:53:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050829155207.04b3b2e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:52:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Possible grant for university research from 3M Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7TJqlq8010169 Resent-Message-ID: <1e4deB.A.ZhC.le2EDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is a message for academic researchers who are US citizens or have valid US work permits. I am afraid this offer is not open to our friends overseas. Please circulate this message to university researchers in the U.S. who might be interested. I do not think people at national labs would qualify, but you might ask the fellow at 3M. Someone at 3M named Mitch Stary contacted me asking if I know any nontenured university researchers who might be interested in applying for a $15,000 grant to study cold fusion. This is for academic research, with no strings attached. Stary is just passing this message along from within 3M, so he does not know the details. You need to contact the people listed in the application. I told Stary: "you do realize, I hope, that my field is cold fusion, which is very controversial." He understands. He thinks it is worth the effort to apply for this grant. I get a sense that he and many others are much more open to cold fusion than people were a few years ago. I asked him if a retired professor is considered "nontenured," and he thinks it would be. Perhaps you would be interested in this funding, or perhaps you know a young, untenured faculty member at a university who would be. This is a long shot, but it might be worth applying for. If you are interested, you may want to contact me first, and I will forward to you the application "Guidelines" document in Microsoft Word format. (I have attached it below in plaintext format.) - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Message from Stary: Can you suggest a non-tenured professor whom I might sponsor for the grant described in the forwarded email with attachment and whose work relates to your interests? Regards, Mitch Stary Mitchell M. Stary 3M Commercial Graphics Division Bldg. 207-B-W-09 (Rm. N-42) St. Paul, MN 55144 VOX: 651-737-6011 mmstary mmm.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tech Forum Office Sent by: 3M Communique 08/29/2005 08:27 AM Please respond to TechForumOffice To cc Subject University Relations Committee for Non-Tenured Faculty Grants Each year the 3M Foundation provides support through the University Relations Committee for Non-tenured Faculty Grants to university professors. These grants can be excellent ways to open university contacts for research communication and hiring. They are, however, viewed as unrestricted contributions and 3M cannot receive any direct services for these donations. Grants are typically for $15000 per year and can last for up to 3 years, if the professor continues to meet the criteria. More information defining the grant and the qualifying criteria are in the attached word document. At this time the University Relations Committee is soliciting proposals for NEW grant support. Proposals should be submitted at the Lotus Notes data base (link below) by September 23rd. When submitting an application in this database please ensure that you enter both a bio for a professor and an application for a NTFG. The guidelines for Non-tenured Faculty Grants are attached. [Shown below in plaintext format. Contact Jed Rothwell for a copy in Microsoft Word format.] I will contact sponsors of grants qualifying for RENEWAL, individually in the next week Alan Alan G Hulme-Lowe, PhD. Chair, University Relations Committee 3M Center / 236-1B-17 voice: 651 733 7196 fax: 651 736 0710 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - GUIDELINES FOR 3M NONTENURED FACULTY AWARDS Objectives 1. To provide financial support for nontenured faculty in selected technical fields of interest to 3M. 2. To encourage the recipients to remain in their teaching posts, conduct research of general interest to 3M, and to develop an awareness of 3M research and researchers Selection 1. Recipients are nominated and selected by 3M personnel with the approval of the recipient’s department head. 2. Criteria for selection, in addition to being nontenured, are the quality and pertinence of research being conducted by the professor. 3. Typically, the selection process begins in the fall with awards confirmed in January. Current recipients may be considered until tenure is achieved up to a normal maximum of three years. Conditions 1. 3M will provide a monetary award for use by the recipient. 2. The award is unrestricted and may be used by the recipient in his or her basic research program, as needed ­ for example, personal summer salary, student support, equipment, travel, etc. It is 3M’s policy that unrestricted gifts of this nature be overhead free. 3. The recipient is requested to use part of this award to fund a one-day visit to 3M Center. While at the 3M Center, the professor will have an opportunity to learn about 3M, meet industrial scientists conducting research on topics of mutual interest and present a brief discussion of current research. 4. As we are interested in the outcome of research supported by this award, we would appreciate receiving copies of any reports, manuscripts, etc., relating to it. 5. If any of the funds are used for student or post-doctoral support that they are U.S. citizens or have valid U.S. work permits. 6. It is the responsibility of the 3M Sponsor to maintain and monitor the relationship with the professor. 3M Sponsors are required to contact the Chair of the Technical Council's University Relations Committee once per year to provide the following metrics as appropriate: Date of visit to 3M and title of seminar presented, whether the recipient received tenure, any change in the assigned 3M contact person, and whether 3M support is recognized on the faculty members website. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 14:31:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TLURjK017027; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:30:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TLUPxr017008; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:30:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:30:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050829213031.009b4b8c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:30:31 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hutchison, etc. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:41 am 29/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> terribilis ut acies ordinata > >You've met my wife? > That's a good one. 8-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 14:31:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TLV4nt017292; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:31:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TLUxHk017181; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:30:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:30:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050829213104.009c3e64 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:31:04 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hutchison,etc. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:44 am 29/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >BlankGrimer wrote... >The Hutchison effect, Shoulders EVOs, positronium, >the materon, spiral rather than circular field lines >around a current carrying wire, the hydraulic jump >- all these are beginning to jell into a single >picture - and at the heart of this picture is, >appropriately enough 8-), the Vortex. >The ring vortex in the case of the Hutchison's >Shoulders effect and the open vortex in the case >of EM fields. > > >Grimer has an explanation for why God uses " colors" in these events. > >Richard > That's news to me, Richard - but I'm happy you think so. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 14:44:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7TLiAJN023618; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:44:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7TLi8iu023587; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:44:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:44:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050829143323.0296a9f8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:44:05 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Possible grant for university research from 3M In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050829155207.04b3b2e0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050829155207.04b3b2e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I got that email from Stary too. I called him up to confirm the emails' authenticity. Yes, it confirms, but it should be made clear that he is just a lab worker, a CF/CMNS enthusiast. He has nothing to do with the committee apart from the fact that as a 3M employee, he can nominate an applicant. Your text which states "grant to study cold fusion" could be easily and unfortunately misunderstood. The grant says nothing about cold fusion, rather, it is Stary's desire that such applicants be considered. Nevertheless, CF/CMNS researchers should apply if interested. Thin-films anybody? I think this is right up Miley's alley. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 22:21:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7U5KYs0032663; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:20:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7U5KWPH032629; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:20:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:20:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:20:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The New Republic article Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed posted on an article published in the New Republic putting down cold fusion. The article is available by subscription only, however he posted the following URL http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16414974%5E28737,00.html I pulled up the article and I didn't see any mention of CF, Has anyone read the article? Did you read a review Jed? Maybe I'll see if the library has NR. I noticed the email of editor the NR. His name is Peter Binart. He is a regular guest on the Hugh Hewitt Show. If the article is as off base as Jed makes out, I'll mention it to Hugh. It's like me writing an article on Constitutional Law and making some outrageous, and false comments. I may be able to get some publicity for the LENR site. I met Minnesota governor Tim Pawlenty., yesterday at the Minnesota State Fair. I mentioned my interest in the subject of alternative energy sources. With regards to CF, I mentioned the missing energy, and that we, believed that it was being carried off by neutrinos. I told him, dude, where's my energy, which he found amusing. He recounted his visit to the neutrino detector built in an underground iron mine in northern Minnesota. They fired neutrinos from Chicago, and they showed up in the detector. I asked him if he would like to discuss the matter further, and he gave me his card. The two things that I have in mind are steam injection with ethanol fuels, and the nuclear battery. Both are proven technologies. Minnesota is long on both corn and spent reactor waste. I mentioned BLP, but added that it was proprietary. If anyone has any suggestions, additions, comments, let me know. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 29 23:46:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7U6jYaK002507; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:45:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7U6j6s7002342; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:45:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:45:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050830064446.009bb214 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:44:46 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Hilsch, Compreture and EM Resent-Message-ID: <-YpEKD.A.ik.yBAFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One item I forgot to include in the list of the "Hutchison, etc." posting, "The Hutchison effect, Shoulders EVOs, positronium, the materon, spiral rather than circular field lines around a current carrying wire, the hydraulic jump..." was that enigmatic device, the Hilsch Tube. Investigating how thermodynamicists accounted for the Hilsch phenomena and I came across this priceless piece of nonsense. Still, I suppose if professors don't confidently put forward explanations for anti-intuitive effects their students will no longer trust them. =============================================== http://www.colorado.edu/che/CLASSES/3320f/pages /hilsch.html ----------------------------------------------- PURPOSE: To separate a stream of air into hot and cold streams, and thereby show that the laws of thermodynamics can be counter-intuitive THEORY: Compressed air at room temperature goes into a Hilsch tube and comes out as a hot stream and a cold stream of air. "That's impossible!" says Shane. Actually, it's not. Compressed air can be split into its hot and cold components. The following explains how a Hilsch tube accomplishes this. Compressed air shoots around a spiral and forms a high- velocity vortex of air. Molecules of air at the outside of the vortex are slowed by friction with the wall of the spiral. Because these slow-moving molecules are subject to the rules of centrifugal force, they tend to fall toward the center of the vortex. The net result of this process is the accumulation of slow-moving, low-energy molecules in the center of the whirling mass, and high-energy, fast-moving molecules around the outside. "High-energy" and "low-energy" mean high and low temperatures respectively. The end result of this process: separation of a stream of gas into hot and cold streams. A good diagram of this mechanism is shown above in the cutaway view of a hilsch tube. =============================================== What we really have here is a manifestation of the bifurcation that takes place in the hydraulic jump with Compreture taking the place of pressure. We have the high speed, low Compreture (high temperature) flow on the outside and low speed high Compreture (low temperature) flow on the inside. In other words, we are dealing with the same Vortexian Phenomena at one finite dimension down with the variable Compreture (inverse temperature) in place of the variable Pressure in the traditional hydraulic jump model. Once one gets to grips with the hierarchical, fractal, nature of physical phenomena it is easy to see that this bifurcation must extend to the EM field with magnetism as the "hot" (>c) and electricity as the "cold" flow ( X-User-Info: 64.61.217.242 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Patrick Bailey sent me the following: >Book Review of "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electrici > >Please forward this email and attachment to whomever you think will >advance this technology. I pointed out to Pat that I have yet to see any experimental evidence of Peter Linderman's claims. OTOH, given the improtance of the claims, they are definately worth investigating. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 02:14:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7U9DcTC031971; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:13:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7U9DZF0031941; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:13:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:13:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4314232B.6080607 sumosound.de> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:13:15 +0200 From: Michael Huffman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Aluminium Battery References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D73D6B CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <43132915.5050108@sumosound.de> In-Reply-To: <43132915.5050108 sumosound.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Huffman wrote: > Moin Chris, > > Mea culpa. Too much coffee, and too many s's. Try this URL > > http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/britannica.html > > Knuke This is kind of weird. I haven't checked Suslick's site in about 2 1/2 years. I just went to have a look at site, and nearly everything regarding his nickel work is gone. I scoured the entire thing only to find the barest of mention of his nickel work. I remember when I first found his website, his biggest discovery at the time was amorphous iron powder, which had applications in the recording industry, and the transformer industry. I exchanged some e-mails with him, told him about Mill's work with nickel, and suggested that he try cavitating that. I checked his website about 18 months later, and roughly on quarter of his site was devoted to a nickel powder that he had created which he was claiming could store 10,000 times the energy in a battery than a normal NiMH battery. He had a patent for a nickel process, and there was a link on the site to his private company which was shopping his technologies around. He has done so much work since then that it drowns out his early stuff, but I also did a Google, and I went 22 pages deep without seeing any reference to either his nickel work or his company. He is an old friend of an old friend of mine, so I might have to make some inquiries. If you want to write him directly, he used to answer his e-mails immediately. He seems to be pretty busy these days, though. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 05:34:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UCXxwM026332; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:34:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UCXu2D026291; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:33:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:33:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c5ad5f$09892b50$1c027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Hilsch, Compreture and EM Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:33:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5AD35.202CB540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5AD35.202CB540 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C5AD35.202CB540" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C5AD35.202CB540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote... Investigating how thermodynamicists accounted=20 for the Hilsch phenomena and I came across this=20 priceless piece of nonsense. Still, I suppose if professors don't confidently put forward =20 explanations for anti-intuitive effects their students will no longer trust them. Here's another link to the tube. http://www.southstreet.freeserve.co.uk/rhvtmatl/index.htm and another to the third side .. read down to the little people = appearing.. wow !! never mix Tequila with water. http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/m-seeps.htm Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C5AD35.202CB540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer wrote...

Investigating how thermodynamicists accounted
for the Hilsch = phenomena=20 and I came across this
priceless piece of nonsense. Still, I = suppose
if=20 professors don't confidently put forward 
explanations for=20 anti-intuitive effects their
students will no longer trust them.

Here's another link to the tube.

http:/= /www.southstreet.freeserve.co.uk/rhvtmatl/index.htm

and=20 another to the third side .. read down to the little people appearing.. = wow !!=20 never mix Tequila with water.

http://www.su= btleenergies.com/ormus/tw/m-seeps.htm
 
Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C5AD35.202CB540-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5AD35.202CB540 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001b01c5ad5f$08ed6080$1c027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5AD35.202CB540-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 06:39:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UDdMBK024319; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:39:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UDdK5G024281; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:39:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:39:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: Schauberger Effects Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:38:56 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D74423 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Schauberger Effects thread-index: AcWtaCtgJtmXmKzaTLuQqUUIiHtpRQ== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2005 13:38:57.0617 (UTC) FILETIME=[2BFD9410:01C5AD68] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7UDcxDI024119 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has anyone ever read about any documented effects similar to what Schauberger claimed? If there is any reality to what he claimed, then somebody must have observed something similar. ...........tornadoes or negative viscosity, perhaps. Thanks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 06:56:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UDtSHP002373; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:55:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UDtQN1002348; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:55:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:55:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Casmir, ZPE, Research in general Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:54:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD6A.6919A878" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD6A.6919A878 Content-Type: text/plain The Casmir effect is Van der Waals attraction. The ZP trick is another means of calculating it not meant to be taken literally. Read the paper below. All I ask in this new energy field is where are the repeatable results independently verifiable? Otherwise its money spinning bull. Cor, I'd like a trip to Japan in a 5 star hotel to smooze with the self appointed experts talking all kindsa science. Cheque please. _____ From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Arnold Sent: 27 August 2005 13:33 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Casmir Effect and ZPE Has anyone considered the possibility that the Casmir Effect is NOT measuring ZPE itself - but the apparatus are reacting to some other force or effect? Chris R C wrote: Terry, (Using this email because the uni. server is down for some reason). The Casmir Effect works with glass plates. If you read the paper: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, 1996 The approach Casmir used is described as a neat calculational trick not to be taken literally. Schocastic Electrodynamics is described as the poor man's Fourier Transform for dealing with *vacuum polarisation* (not the same). Elsewhere it says that zp of the lattice exists but not for a continuum. I will revise it and may be drop off a few of the important points here. I don't know what BEC is. I remember Puthoff back in 2001 in Brighton describing an American invention which was meant to 'detune' the the zp by creating a beat frequency between two slightly different sized! spheres which could then just be rectified. He was candid and said it didn't work. This seemed to be a very direct test of the zp *hypothesis*. Not knocking the ideas of the vacuum seeming to having some physical even mechanical property, the following paper is undeniable: Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980). Quoting them: "It is remarkable that no know 'particle' can be identified as the agent of the observed electromagnetic angular momentum in the exchange with the mechanical detector. However, this does not imply that a new entity has to be introduced, because the concept of energy-momentum carried by macroscopic quasi-static (italics mine) electromagnetic field is already contained in Maxwell's equations. According to these, and as directly implied by our experimental result, permanent magnets and electrets can be used to build a flywheel of electromagnetic energy steadily flowing i! n circles in the vacuum gap of a capacitor as if Maxwell's medium were endowed with a property corresponding to super-fluidity. The certainly new insight is that the quasi-static Maxwell's field is not merely an unobservable medium of interaction between matter and matter: it has in fact the mechanical properties postulated by Maxwell, in contradistinction to any 'action at a distance' theory." ZP is not the way to explain this. Stick to real experiments and not hyper-extrapolated theory. Regards, Remi. _____ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD6A.6919A878 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Casmir effect is Van der Waals attraction. The ZP trick is another means of calculating it not meant = to be taken literally. Read the paper below.

 

=

All I ask in this new energy field = is where are the repeatable results independently verifiable? Otherwise its = money spinning bull.

 

=

Cor, I’d like a trip to = Japan in a 5 star hotel to smooze with the self appointed experts talking all kindsa science.

 

=

Cheque = please.

 

=

From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] = On Behalf Of Christopher = Arnold
Sent: 27 August 2005 = 13:33
To: = vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: The Casmir = Effect and ZPE

 

Has anyone considered the possibility that the Casmir Effect is = NOT measuring ZPE itself - but the apparatus are reacting to some = other force or effect?

 

Chris

R C <corn-wall corn-wall.freeserve.co.uk> = wrote:

Terry,

(Using this email because the uni. server is down for some reason).

The Casmir Effect works with glass plates. If you read the paper:

"Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological = Constant", Michel
F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, 1996

The approach Casmir used is described as a neat calculational trick not = to be taken literally. Schocastic Electrodynamics is described as the poor = man's Fourier Transform for dealing with *vacuum polarisation* (not the = same). Elsewhere it says that zp of the lattice exists but not for a = continuum. I will revise it and may be drop off a few of the important points here.

I don't know what BEC is.

I remember Puthoff back in 2001 in Brighton describing an American invention which was meant to 'detune' the the zp = by creating a beat frequency between two slightly different sized! spheres = which could then just be rectified. He was candid and said it didn't work. = This seemed to be a very direct test of the zp *hypothesis*.

Not knocking the ideas of the vacuum seeming to having some physical = even mechanical property, the following paper is undeniable:
Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular = momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980).

Quoting them:
"It is remarkable that no know 'particle' can be identified as the = agent of the observed electromagnetic angular momentum in the exchange with = the mechanical detector. However, this does not imply that a new entity has = to be introduced, because the concept of energy-momentum carried by = macroscopic quasi-static (italics mine) electromagnetic field is already contained = in Maxwell's equations. According to these, and as directly implied by our experimental result, permanent magnets and electrets can be used to = build a flywheel of electromagnetic energy steadily flowing i! n circles in the = vacuum gap of a capacitor as if Maxwell's medium were endowed with a property corresponding to super-fluidity. The certainly new insight is that the quasi-static Maxwell's field is not merely an unobservable medium of interaction between matter and matter: it has in fact the mechanical = properties postulated by Maxwell, in contradistinction to any 'action at a = distance' theory."

ZP is not the way to explain this. Stick to real experiments and not hyper-extrapolated theory.
Regards,
Remi.

St= art your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page =

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD6A.6919A878-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 07:40:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UEeGY9023524; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:40:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UEe9rC023474; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:40:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:40:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050830103613.03797cb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:39:32 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The New Republic article In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas malloy wrote: >Jed posted on an article published in the New Republic putting down cold >fusion. The article is available by subscription only, however he posted >the following URL >http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16414974%5E28737,00.html >I pulled up the article and I didn't see any mention of CF, there was just one throwaway comment: "It's not hard to imagine scams such as cold fusion or the Scientologist critique of psychiatric drugs gaining ground in a world where science's ability to identify knowledge has been undermined. . . ." it does not bother me so much when people say things like this, but rather when they will not bother to read letters from Storms, me or others telling them they are wrong. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 08:05:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UF53VT006835; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:05:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UF4xRH006768; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:04:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:04:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Research in general Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:04:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7UF4fnL006523 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey, I can even give companies from where I get my equipment (and batch numbers for materials): try Liquids Research (Bangor), FerroTec, SusTech, RS, Maplin etc. etc. If you want a batch number for the brand of ferrofluid I use to see it relax at 1kHz I can give it. The basic science and phenomena is there. Like I say, when I'm ready (probably cooling with one reservoir as this independent flux stuff is proving a little subtle for some ('professors' of physics in minor league universities), not for engineers though) I will go public in the sense of submitting to a high quality peer reviewed journal. **Not before.** Nobody likes a dirty cop. Trust is the most precious commodity. Patience, patience... Regards, R. ________________________________________ From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Sent: 30 August 2005 14:55 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Casmir, ZPE, Research in general The Casmir effect is Van der Waals attraction. The ZP trick is another means of calculating it not meant to be taken literally. Read the paper below. All I ask in this new energy field is where are the repeatable results independently verifiable? Otherwise its money spinning bull. Cor, I'd like a trip to Japan in a 5 star hotel to smooze with the self appointed experts talking all kindsa science. Cheque please. ________________________________________ From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Arnold Sent: 27 August 2005 13:33 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Casmir Effect and ZPE Has anyone considered the possibility that the Casmir Effect is NOT measuring ZPE itself - but the apparatus are reacting to some other force or effect?   Chris R C wrote: Terry, (Using this email because the uni. server is down for some reason). The Casmir Effect works with glass plates. If you read the paper: "Comment on Zero-point Fluctuations and The Cosmological Constant", Michel F.C., Astrophysical Journal, 466:660-667, 1996 The approach Casmir used is described as a neat calculational trick not to be taken literally. Schocastic Electrodynamics is described as the poor man's Fourier Transform for dealing with *vacuum polarisation* (not the same). Elsewhere it says that zp of the lattice exists but not for a continuum. I will revise it and may be drop off a few of the important points here. I don't know what BEC is. I remember Puthoff back in 2001 in Brighton describing an American invention which was meant to 'detune' the the zp by creating a beat frequency between two slightly different sized! spheres which could then just be rectified. He was candid and said it didn't work. This seemed to be a very direct test of the zp *hypothesis*. Not knocking the ideas of the vacuum seeming to having some physical even mechanical property, the following paper is undeniable: Graham and Lahoz, "Observation of static electromagnetic angular momentum in vacuo", Nature Vol. 285, 154 (1980). Quoting them: "It is remarkable that no know 'particle' can be identified as the agent of the observed electromagnetic angular momentum in the exchange with the mechanical detector. However, this does not imply that a new entity has to be introduced, because the concept of energy-momentum carried by macroscopic quasi-static (italics mine) electromagnetic field is already contained in Maxwell's equations. According to these, and as directly implied by our experimental result, permanent magnets and electrets can be used to build a flywheel of electromagnetic energy steadily flowing i! n circles in the vacuum gap of a capacitor as if Maxwell's medium were endowed with a property corresponding to super-fluidity. The certainly new insight is that the quasi-static Maxwell's field is not merely an unobservable medium of interaction between matter and matter: it has in fact the mechanical properties postulated by Maxwell, in contradistinction to any 'action at a distance' theory." ZP is not the way to explain this. Stick to real experiments and not hyper-extrapolated theory. Regards, Remi. ________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 08:39:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UFcl79026103; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:39:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UFckZm026093; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:38:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:38:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050830113821.04d95c50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:38:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New papers and powerpoint slides by Takahashi and Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/FilesByDate.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 08:57:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UFv4mC005282; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:57:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UFv0iC005201; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:57:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:57:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:56:42 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: New Republic article Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted, aad Mitchell Swartz replied; The article is right on the net. CF is only mentioned in passing. What "missing energy"? We have used long-term time integration with full controls and multiple rings (that is consecutive volumes), and I uncertain as to what you mean? As I understand it, if the same number of reactions occurred by hot fusion there would be a larger amount of energy evolved. Is this correct? Can this energy be accounted for by the higher energies involved? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 09:49:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UGmxlG007057; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:49:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UGmvU3007022; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:48:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:48:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Correlation or Cosmic Coincidence? Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:34:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050830163435.JGIL26506.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Vorts. Take a look at page 18 of Shoulders' presentation relating EVOs and the Hutchison Effect: http://www.svn.net/krscfs/EVOs%20and%20Hutchison%20Effect.pdf It shows the result of his EVOs punching through aluminum foil. Now compare and contrast these with the sprites and elves here: http://www.holoscience.com/news/balloon.html The resemblance is remarkable! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 10:01:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UH0los017315; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:01:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UH0j2g017290; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:00:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:00:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b701c5ad84$4b0da180$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050819034618.NIVG8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Betten never? was: New papers by Szpak et al. Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:00:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C5AD49.9E4AB080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C5AD49.9E4AB080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Better late than never...or better never ? One of the problems of having numerous computers is that messages often = get downloaded to the least-used one and never answered. Since the = subject of the "Port Chicago" incident is one of the few fringe stories = ... that is, one of the few of the far-out conspiracy theories which I = buy into, I wanted to answer Terry's old message: ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Terry Blanton"=20 =20 >> We may never know [the truth behind the Port Chicago incident].... =20 > http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq80-1.htm =20 > With a HL of 24,000 years, Pu239 alphas should be the evidence you = need. Funny you should mention this smoking gun... Not only does the county in = question (Contra Costa) have the highest cancer rate in the USA by far = .... it could have been much worse. Twenty-thee miles out from the SF Bay area sit the lovely, seemingly = unspoiled Farallones Islands. Their beauty hides a deep grim secret. = Even in 2005, as they have for over sixty years, a few barges from = Hunter's Point carrying radioactive waste pass under the Golden Gate = Bridge, heading for clandesting nuclear waste dumping into the deep = water of the Farallones. There... the false-bottom of the barges opens to release radioactive = waste into the sea, just as first happened on July 19, 1944 following a = wartime explosion - at Port Chicago (now called "Concord"). The dredged = material from this incident, would normally have been used at the Yerba = Buena fill site, twenty miles closer in... but for one grotesque and = deadly secret. The Naval Radiological Defence Laboratory at Hunters Point, the leading = laboratory of the United States military for applied nuclear research, = oversees this continuing quasi-illegal activity. Their classified files = could open the US government and the Navy to hundreds of billions of = dollars in liability for past deeds, if the Port Chicago secret even = came out... but that may never happen. Port Chicago is, in a curious = irony, one of the main reasons that the continuing illegal dumping = continues. No amount of present dumping can add much to the already = immense burden of toxicity which is already there. Thank the Lord for = deep waters. These days, most nuclear waste is sent out in 55 gallon drums - = originating at the University of California, operator of three national = laboratories, and the acknowledged leader in nuclear research... and = clandestind dumping (along with the US Navy). Radioactive waste from = McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento, supposedly home to more nukes = than any place on earth, is also dumped in the Farallones. In a curious = anachronism, barrels that do not go down immediately, are holed by rifle = shooting by sailors in order to hasten immediate sinking. Many of the US = Navy's lower level radioactive waste containers are consequenly breached = from the start, but that is de minimis compared to the waste already = there - on the sea bottom of the Farallon Islands Nuclear Waste Site. = Anything we do these days pales in comparison to what was dumped there = after the dredging of Port Chicago in the summer of '44 and later, some = of the Bikini waste was even hauled all the way here.=20 The Farallon waste site is a triangle shaped piece of sea space at a = distance of 30 miles west of San Francisco. It encompasses most of the = Gulf of Farallones National Marine Sanctuary, a refuge of gorgeous = marine and other wildlife. The site includes some of the most fertile = commercial fishing waters in the Pacific. These waters are rich with = fish and other sea life. The islands themselves are home to the nations = largest population of breeding sea birds, and sea lions. But = astonishingly this was America's largest sea dump of nuclear waste. Why = was nuclear trash dumped so close to the densely populated Californian = coast, and sea traffic, could only be explained by the curious events of = that fateful summer, when hundreds of Afro-American servicemen were = blasted into oblvion, and then the remainder of their comarades charged = with mutiny in what has become (until recently) America's greatest = shame. It is the one and only wartime "accident" ever investigated by what = later became the Los Alamos National Labs - LANL. Now why would that be? = Why would lab officials have been on site the next day following the = disaster? Why whould this lab have witten up 20,000 pages of TOP SECRET = classified information on an accidnet involving the Navy? LANL is not = run by the Navy and never was. They never investigate any other = accident? This was totally outside their mission, especially during the = wartime years. Why would they have top officials at Port Chicago the day = following an "accident" which should have been of absolutely no concern = to them? Why is the material still calssified? Where is the Mark II? There is only one way that most of these questions can be answered. US officials have long acknowledged that this nuclear dump site contains = some 47,500 barrels of low level radiation waste produced by nuclear = power reactors, and US Navy and University of California's nuclear = laboratories. But they have fallen far short of coming-clean. Curiously, = the Farallon Islands Nuclear Waste Site is still officially termed as a = "low level", nuclear waste repository. This claim has been challenged = and oblitereated by environmentalists and journalists, who stress that = extraordinarily high levels and long lived radioactivity, and far more = dangerous materials are parked and are sitting at the bottom of the sea = out there, some admttedly coming from Bikini. How could that be low = level? According to SF Weekly US Navy's unclassified documents reveal = "significant amounts of nuclear bomb component plutonium which has a = half life of 24000 years, and similarly long lived 'mixed fission' = products were used at the US Navy's laboratory at Hunters point." The US = Navy has asserted that all nuclear materials used at the NRLD were = disposd of at the Farallon Nuclear Waste Site. An entire radioactive = ship the 10,000 ton, aircraft carrier Independence used as target in the = Bikini Atoll's largest US atomic bomb tests is believed to have been = sunk near this waste site... they do not mention Port Chicago, the = hidden secret and last monstrous 'skeleton in the closet' remaining from = WWII. Thank heavens for one fact. This water is extremely deep, still and cold = - and lifeless. The US Environmental Protection Agency has said that = radioactive material from this dumping site could nevertheless be = entering the food chain, and even on to beaches and into San Francisco = Bay. It is astonishing that despite environmental outcry, sixty years of = radioactive waste, starting with the Post Chicago dredging, was dumped = at the heart of a major fishery, near the incredibly beautiful city of = San Francisco... and still continues to be dumped there behind a veil of = secrecy. Were it not for deep calm waters and short memories, who knows what = forther evil could have befallen the area .... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C5AD49.9E4AB080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Better late than never...or better = never=20 ?
 
One of the problems of having numerous = computers is=20 that messages often get downloaded to the least-used one and never = answered.=20 Since the subject of the "Port Chicago" incident is one of the few = fringe=20 stories ... that is, one of the few of the far-out conspiracy theories = which I=20 buy into, I wanted to answer Terry's old message:
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Blanton"
 
>> We may never know = [the truth=20 behind the Port Chicago incident]....
 
> http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq80-1.htm
 
> With a HL of 24,000 years, Pu239 = alphas should=20 be the evidence you need.
 
 
Funny you should mention this smoking = gun... Not=20 only does the county in question (Contra Costa) have the highest cancer = rate in=20 the USA by far .... it could have been much worse.
 
Twenty-thee miles out from the SF Bay = area sit the=20 lovely, seemingly unspoiled Farallones Islands. Their beauty hides = a deep=20 grim secret. Even in 2005, as they have for over sixty years, a few = barges=20 from Hunter's Point carrying radioactive waste pass under the Golden = Gate=20 Bridge, heading for clandesting nuclear waste dumping into the deep = water=20 of the Farallones.
 
There... the false-bottom of the barges = opens to=20 release radioactive waste into the sea, just as first happened on = July=20 19, 1944 following a wartime explosion - at Port Chicago (now = called=20 "Concord"). The dredged material from this incident, would normally = have=20 been used at the Yerba Buena fill site, twenty miles closer in... but = for one=20 grotesque and deadly secret.
 
The Naval Radiological Defence = Laboratory at=20 Hunters Point, the leading laboratory of the United States military for = applied=20 nuclear research, oversees this continuing quasi-illegal activity. Their = classified files could open the US government and the Navy to hundreds = of=20 billions of dollars in liability for past deeds, if the Port Chicago = secret even=20 came out... but that may never happen. Port Chicago is, in a curious=20 irony, one of the main reasons that the continuing illegal dumping=20 continues. No amount of present dumping can add much to the already = immense=20 burden of toxicity which is already there. Thank the Lord for deep=20 waters.
 
These days, most nuclear waste is sent = out in 55=20 gallon drums - originating at the University of California, = operator of=20 three national laboratories, and the acknowledged leader in = nuclear=20 research... and clandestind dumping (along with the US Navy). = Radioactive waste=20 from McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento, supposedly home to more = nukes=20 than any place on earth, is also dumped in the Farallones. In = a=20 curious anachronism, barrels = that do not go=20 down immediately, are holed by rifle shooting by sailors in order to = hasten=20 immediate sinking. Many of the US Navy=92s lower level radioactive waste = containers are consequenly breached from the start, but that is de = minimis=20 compared to the waste already there - on the sea bottom of the = Farallon Islands Nuclear Waste Site. Anything we do these days pales in=20 comparison to what was dumped there after the dredging of Port Chicago = in the=20 summer of '44 and later, some of the Bikini waste was even hauled all = the way=20 here.
 
The Farallon waste site is a triangle = shaped piece=20 of sea space at a distance of 30 miles west of San Francisco. It = encompasses=20 most of the Gulf of Farallones National Marine Sanctuary, a refuge of = gorgeous=20 marine and other wildlife. The site includes some of the most fertile = commercial=20 fishing waters in the Pacific. These waters are rich with fish and other = sea=20 life. The islands themselves are home to the nations largest population = of=20 breeding sea birds, and sea lions. But astonishingly this was = America=92s largest=20 sea dump of nuclear waste. Why was nuclear trash dumped so close to the = densely=20 populated Californian coast, and sea traffic, could only be explained by = the=20 curious events of that fateful summer, when hundreds of Afro-American = servicemen=20 were blasted into oblvion, and then the remainder of their comarades = charged=20 with mutiny in what has become (until recently) America's greatest=20 shame.
 
It is the one and only wartime = "accident" ever=20 investigated by what later became the Los Alamos National Labs = - LANL. Now=20 why would that be? Why would lab officials have been on site the next = day=20 following the disaster? Why whould this lab have witten up 20,000 pages = of TOP=20 SECRET classified information on an accidnet involving the Navy? LANL is = not run=20 by the Navy and never was. They never investigate any other accident? = This was=20 totally outside their mission, especially during the wartime years. Why = would=20 they have top officials at Port Chicago the day following an "accident" = which=20 should have been of absolutely no concern to them? Why is the material = still=20 calssified? Where is the Mark II?
 
There is only one way that most of = these questions=20 can be answered.

US = officials have long=20 acknowledged that this nuclear dump site contains some 47,500 barrels of = low=20 level radiation waste produced by nuclear power reactors, and US Navy = and=20 University of California=92s nuclear laboratories. But they have fallen = far short=20 of coming-clean. Curiously, the Farallon Islands Nuclear Waste Site is = still=20 officially termed as a =93low level=94, nuclear waste repository. This = claim has=20 been challenged and oblitereated by environmentalists and = journalists, who=20 stress that extraordinarily high levels and long lived radioactivity, = and far=20 more dangerous materials are parked and are sitting at the bottom of the = sea out=20 there, some admttedly coming from Bikini. How could that be low=20 level?

According = to SF Weekly US=20 Navy=92s unclassified documents reveal =93significant amounts of nuclear = bomb=20 component plutonium which has a half life of 24000 years, and similarly = long=20 lived =91mixed fission=92 products were used at the US Navy=92s = laboratory at Hunters=20 point.=94 The US Navy has asserted that all nuclear materials used at = the NRLD=20 were disposd of at the Farallon Nuclear Waste Site. An entire = radioactive ship=20 the 10,000 ton, aircraft carrier Independence used as target in the = Bikini=20 Atoll=92s largest US atomic bomb tests is believed to have been sunk = near this=20 waste site... they do not mention Port Chicago, the hidden secret and = last=20 monstrous 'skeleton in the closet' remaining from WWII.

Thank = heavens for one=20 fact. This water is extremely deep, still and cold - and lifeless. = The US=20 Environmental Protection Agency has said that radioactive material from = this=20 dumping site could nevertheless be entering the food chain, and even on = to=20 beaches and into San Francisco Bay. It is astonishing that despite = environmental=20 outcry, sixty years of radioactive waste, starting with the Post Chicago = dredging, was dumped at the heart of a major fishery, near the = incredibly=20 beautiful city of San Francisco... and still continues to be dumped = there behind=20 a veil of secrecy.

Were it = not for deep=20 calm waters and short memories, who knows what forther evil could have = befallen=20 the area ....

Jones


------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C5AD49.9E4AB080-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 10:37:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UHaGBE006302; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:36:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UHa9Ud006208; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:36:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:36:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050830173544.009cb23c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:35:44 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hilsch, Compreture and EM Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:33 am 30/08/2005 -0500, Richard wrote: > Grimer wrote... >> Investigating how thermodynamicists accounted >> for the Hilsch phenomena and I came across this >> priceless piece of nonsense. Still, I suppose >> if professors don't confidently put forward >> explanations for anti-intuitive effects their >> students will no longer trust them. > Here's another link to the tube. > > http://www.southstreet.freeserve.co.uk/rhvtmatl/index.htm Thanks for that useful link, Richard. Here's a relevant excerpt. =============================================== Many, often contradictory, explanations for the vortex tube effect have been advanced over the years since its invention/discovery. Analysis of the various suggestions reveals only two firm facts (1) As of 1996, no-one knows for sure the details of how the energy separation in the vortex tube arises. A number of authors have written confidently about their theories, but all have serious difficiencies [sic] or are called into question by subsequent experiments. I advance a summary of my best guess below, based on experiments, simulations and analysis but I would not for a moment suggest that it represents a definitive explanation. (2) The vortex tube is a tough nut to crack. The energy/temperature separation is a complex and subtle phenomenon. Anyone who solves the mystery definitively will do so as the result of a serious programme of experimental and theoretical research. While qualitative. back of the envelope type explanations may be useful to get a basic handle on what is going on, there is no way they can do more than scratch the surface. =============================================== I guessed that must be the situation - but it's always nice to have confirmation. > and another to the third side .. read down to the little > people appearing.. wow !! never mix Tequila with water. > > http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/m-seeps.htm Perhaps it was Maxwell's demon in person, eh! But more likely, as you suggest, the demon, drink. 8-) Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 10:42:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UHfe1d009828; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:41:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UHfc3j009807; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:41:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:41:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050830174121.009d26a4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:41:21 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Schauberger Effects Resent-Message-ID: <8ez-kC.A.8YC.RpJFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:38 am 30/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Has anyone ever read about any documented effects similar to what >Schauberger claimed? If there is any reality to what he claimed, then >somebody >must have observed something similar. > >...........tornadoes or negative viscosity, perhaps. > >Thanks Perhaps you could give us, or tell us where we can get, an intelligible executive summary of what exactly he did claim. Ta. Frank Grimer. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 11:20:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UIJbXx032235; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:19:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UIJYp8032211; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:19:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:19:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050830181918.009ed0cc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:19:18 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: The Casmir, ZPE, Research in general Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:54 pm 30/08/2005 +0100, Cornwall wrote: > The Casmir effect is Van der Waals attraction. The Casimir effect is an external pressure on materials. It is an aspect of the Beta-atmosphere pressure which holds materials together. Read the paper below, GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. Structure, Solid Mechanics and Engineering Design. Proceedings of the Southampton 1969 Civil Engineering Conference. (M.Te'eni, Ed.), Wiley Interscience, pp 681 - 691, 1972. .....which you will find at, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ And if you want results from a recognition that this is so, then read, CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. A General Approach to the Strength of Materials. Speculations in Science and Technology, Vol.1, No.1, pp5 - 13, 1978. CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept with particular reference to concrete. Developments in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318. ...which you will also find in the Files Section and the Photo Section of the above Yahoo site. 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 12:56:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UJu7bC024282; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:56:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UJu4PP024244; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:56:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:56:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Electron Condenser Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:55:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050830195540.MOEK26506.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, if you want to build your own charge cluster weapon of mass destruction, it isn't much of a challenge. Shoulders has the plans right here: http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Electron%20Condenser.pdf If all this is true, I'm surprised the web page remains up. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 13:08:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UK7ZgM030791; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:07:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UK7WWQ030740; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:07:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:07:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: Electron Condenser Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:07:10 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D7485F CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Electron Condenser thread-index: AcWtnQpeTSU/Z3mHRButCv6n5ub0eQAAMvIQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2005 20:07:08.0975 (UTC) FILETIME=[66B8C3F0:01C5AD9E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7UK7Dqr030543 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This sounds a little like 'Liquid electricity' invented by a guy named Diggs. Supposedly, you slowly filled a supercold high pressure container with electrons. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:56 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Electron Condenser Well, if you want to build your own charge cluster weapon of mass destruction, it isn't much of a challenge. Shoulders has the plans right here: http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Electron%20Condenser.pdf If all this is true, I'm surprised the web page remains up. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 13:27:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UKROm8008548; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:27:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UKRMTC008527; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:27:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:27:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Electron Condenser Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:27:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050830202700.NCVE26506.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <4-t_u.A.HFC.qEMFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Zell, Chris" > This sounds a little like 'Liquid electricity' invented by a guy named > Diggs. Supposedly, you slowly filled a supercold high pressure > container > with electrons. Easier than that. The Paul Trap uses an electric field. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 13:39:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UKdG8e015557; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:39:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UKdAkT015507; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:39:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Hal Fox on High Density Charge Clusters Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:38:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050830203848.RMOF17580.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See the diagram. Looks a lot like MAHG. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/mar2/fox.htm Excerpt: "Kenneth Shoulders was the first to discover and obtain a patent using HDCC technology.[2] When warned by his patent attorney that there was a strong likelihood that his patent application would be classified as secret by the government officials that review new discoveries, Shoulders responded by writing a book detailing much of the experimental work that he had accomplished.[3] Then, immediately after he had filed the patent application, he mailed copies of the book to a list of several scientists in various countries. As expected, the invention was classified, but when the officials of the patent office asked to know who had received his book, it was most unfortunate that the computer had eaten the address list. Within a few days, the patent officials decided to give up on the classification. Kenneth Shoulders, working with low pressure gases, had found that under certain conditions (including short pulses of input electrical energy) HDCC could be formed, directed, and controlled. The discoveries involved many manifestations of HDCC, including the structure, size, the necklace-like 20-micron diameter, and the peculiar quantization such that additional energy creates HDCC structures that are 50-microns in diameter." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 15:48:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UMlYYH015369; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:47:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UMlVYw015341; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:47:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:47:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012801c5adb4$bf0f32d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Maybe they should read vortex Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:47:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0125_01C5AD7A.12475FD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0125_01C5AD7A.12475FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=3Ddn7924 "New Scientist" is apparently amazed at the giant water/ice plume = spewing from Saturn's moon. The article is in the August 30 2005 issue = by Stephen Battersby, who goes on to say.... =20 "Four fissures in the south pole of Saturn's moon Enceladus are spewing = out a plume hundreds of kilometres high, the Cassini probe has revealed, = and the ejecta is leaving a vapour trail that rings Saturn. Scientists = are shocked by this volcanic activity on what should be a small, quiet = moon. "It is a stunning surprise," said Dennis Matson, from NASA's Jet = Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California ..." Yo... Steve. Had you been reading Vortex back in Feb - the "surprise" = might be less stunning ;-) Once again we see evidence of extremely = energetic mechanical failure, which can be due to brittle failure, or to = phase-shift (allotrope) failure. This is totally off-the-books of normal = energy accounting because the energy probably derives in part from ZPE. = But no doubt "New Scientist" is skeptical of ZPE as an energy source... = their problem, not mine. Back then we were considering "exploding Sb" which when "frozen" and = subjected to a sharp blow, can explode with a reported evolution of = 19,600 calories per gram [questionable claim, admittedly] about 6 times = the energy of burning H2 plus O2 to water. Note that both Antimony and = Bismuth expand on solidifying as does water ice - and all can explode = violently. The similarity of exploding Sb with exploding ice is = 'striking' (PI) and now we seem to be getting some "far out" = confirmation of the former speculation. Using ice-9 instead of normal ice, as may be found on Saturn's cold = moons, and with a large charge build up due to friction [tribology] all = the ingredients are there for explosiveness which should far exceed this = energy figure of Antimony, IF it the situation can be maintained in a = certain regime. If even 5% by volume of solid ice-9 can be encapsulated = in another liquid (air or oxygen) while bypassing the ice-2 formation = stage, stranger things may happen, especially with abnormal charge = buildup.... Another website which more graphically demonstrates particular point of interest, the tiny but very important, Ice-III phase, is at: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PETROLGY/Ice%20Structure.HTM find the image entitled "High-Pressure Ice Polymorphs" and look for the little green colored chunk at the bottom of the graphic. EXTROPY n. : A measure of energy, life, intelligence, information, or growth potential. The collection of forces which oppose entropy There is a very good point to be made about **proton ordering** in the context of entropy and extropy. Ice-III is an important precursor to ice-IX , a.k.a. ice-9, which is the proton-ordered and possibly ferroelectric state of ice - which has important hypothetical fuel-like characteristics. Caveat Lector: This idea (and this whole series of recent threads) is hypothetical, emergent, and fast evolving. It may change overnight in important details. It could fall flat on its face. Remember, we are trying to separate the wheat from the chafe in this complex and interlocking scheme of things, with limited resources, and any refinement to that thinking is appreciated. In this regard, "chafe" is not poisonous, and is kind of trendy these days so 'bon appetite... and anyway, it's extra fiber, so after digestion, if there is no-growth potential for you, then you can deposit it in the appropriate receptacle. Obviously, in a broad theoretical way, one can say that all types of ordering (and proton-ordering in particular) is a strong indication of extropy ...and consequently has a potential energy content, on that account alone. "Directed proton ordering" due to the harnessing entropy itself in the form of temperature reduction is an ironic twist, and can be said to show that nature is potentially self-ordering to an extent. The limit of that extent is what is known as ZPE. In other words, entropy can be used to actually create extropy under the right circumstances (the addition of information). Often, however, it does not take a lot of net energy input to break up proton-ordering, but that can be irrelevant. When that small amount of energy is applied on a very fast time scale, one can perhaps achieve a higher order acceleration (jerk or jounce), resulting in actual proton displacement. This is an expected side effect of 'jerk' at the nanoscale. When such higher order acceleration occurs and hydrogen bonds are fractured, the proton is temporarily freed, and can then combine with a remote oxygen molecule. One has, in effect, bootstrapped a low amount of energy into a high amount of energy, and done so "off-the-books" so to speak (if your books do not include ZPE). At least that is the hypothesis behind this. The discovery and existence of an ice transition into a ferroelectric phase has sparked considerable debate. The predicted transition at 98K is in good agreement with the observed transition at 72K, and the low temperature phase resulting in the ferroelectric phase has now been determined in diffraction experiments. This phase demands proton ordering, such as occurs when ice-3 changes to ice-9 under pressure. FERROELECTRIC adj. Of or relating to a crystalline dielectric that can be given a permanent electric polarization by application of an electric field. What this means, ultimately, in terms of being able to engineer an additional "hidden" energy content into ice, due to proton ordering, is not yet crystal clear, but it probably means that certain forms of highly particulated ice can hold an applied charge for extended periods, just like any good ultra-capacitor. After undergoing explosive brittle mechanical failure, they will then be poised, at the very same time, to dump the additional entrained electrical charge into the expanding redox explosion, adding to the energy multiplication effect. Ever hear of an "exploding capacitor"? Check google - you will get over 8000 hits and some nice images. One more reason why it makes sense, as a future transportation fuel, to consider the use of a hypothetical new type of liquid fuel: ice-9 entrained, electrically-charged CA (cryo-air) as a substitute fuel for use in an internal combustion engine (ICE). There is the potential here to create in an ecologically sound transportation fuel, with potentially more energy content than is found in gasoline, at moderate cost, and with the potential to be made (at least partly) at home. At least this concept of exploding ice is worth mentioning once = again.... in light of Saturnine volatility, which ill-wind seems to be = the plate du jour, even in Nawlins.... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0125_01C5AD7A.12475FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=3Ddn7924

"New Scientist" is apparently = amazed at=20 the giant water/ice plume spewing from Saturn=92s moon. The article = is in the=20 August 30 2005 issue by Stephen Battersby, who goes on to=20 say....
 
"Four fissures in the south pole of Saturn's moon = Enceladus=20 are spewing out a plume hundreds of kilometres high, the Cassini probe = has=20 revealed, and the ejecta is leaving a vapour trail that rings Saturn.=20 Scientists are shocked by this = volcanic activity=20 on what should be a small, quiet moon. "It is a stunning surprise," said = Dennis=20 Matson, from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California=20 ..."
 
Yo... Steve. Had you been reading = Vortex back in=20 Feb - the "surprise" might be less stunning ;-)  Once again we see = evidence=20 of extremely energetic mechanical failure, which can be due to brittle = failure,=20 or to phase-shift (allotrope) failure. This is totally off-the-books of = normal=20 energy accounting because the energy probably derives = in part from=20 ZPE. But no doubt "New Scientist" is skeptical of ZPE as an energy = source...=20 their problem, not mine.

Back then we were considering "exploding = Sb"=20 which when "frozen" and subjected to a sharp blow, can = explode with a=20 reported evolution of 19,600 calories per gram [questionable claim, = admittedly]=20 about 6 times the energy of burning H2 plus O2 to water. Note that both = Antimony=20 and Bismuth expand on solidifying as does water ice - and all can = explode=20 violently. The similarity of exploding Sb with exploding ice is = 'striking'=20 (PI) and now we seem to be getting some "far out" confirmation of = the=20 former speculation.

Using ice-9 instead of normal ice, as may be=20 found on Saturn's cold moons, and with a large charge build up due = to=20 friction [tribology] all the ingredients are there for = explosiveness which=20 should far exceed this energy figure of Antimony, IF it the situation = can be=20 maintained in a certain regime. If even 5% by volume of solid ice-9 can = be=20 encapsulated in another liquid (air or oxygen) while bypassing the = ice-2=20 formation stage, stranger things may happen, especially with abnormal = charge=20 buildup....

Another website which more graphically = demonstrates
particular=20 point of interest, the tiny but very important,
Ice-III phase,  = is=20 at:
http://w= ww.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PETROLGY/Ice%20Structure.HTM

find=20 the image entitled "High-Pressure Ice Polymorphs" and
look for the = little=20 green colored chunk at the bottom of the
graphic.

EXTROPY n. : = A=20 measure of energy, life, intelligence,
information, or growth = potential. The=20 collection of forces
which oppose entropy

There is a very good = point=20 to be made about **proton
ordering** in the context of entropy and = extropy.=20 Ice-III is
an important precursor to ice-IX , a.k.a. ice-9, which = is
the=20 proton-ordered and possibly ferroelectric state of ice -
which has = important=20 hypothetical fuel-like characteristics.

Caveat Lector: This idea = (and=20 this whole series of recent
threads) is hypothetical, emergent, and = fast=20 evolving. It
may change overnight in important details. It could = fall
flat=20 on its face. Remember, we are trying to separate the
wheat from the = chafe in=20 this complex and interlocking scheme
of things, with limited = resources, and=20 any refinement to
that thinking is appreciated. In this regard, = "chafe" is=20 not
poisonous, and is kind of trendy these days so = 'bon
appetite... and=20 anyway, it's extra fiber, so after
digestion, if there is no-growth = potential=20 for you, then you
can deposit it in the appropriate=20 receptacle.

Obviously, in a broad theoretical way, one can say = that=20 all
types of ordering (and proton-ordering in particular) is = a
strong=20 indication of extropy ...and consequently has a
potential energy = content, on=20 that account alone. "Directed
proton ordering" due to the harnessing = entropy=20 itself in the
form of temperature reduction is an ironic twist, and = can=20 be
said to show that nature is potentially self-ordering to = an
extent. The=20 limit of that extent is what is known as ZPE. In
other words, entropy = can be=20 used to actually create extropy
under the right circumstances (the = addition=20 of information).

Often, however, it does not take a lot of net = energy=20 input
to break up proton-ordering, but that can be = irrelevant.
When that=20 small amount of energy is applied on a very fast
time scale, one can = perhaps=20 achieve a higher order
acceleration (jerk or jounce), resulting in = actual=20 proton
displacement. This is an expected side effect of 'jerk' = at
the=20 nanoscale. When such higher order acceleration occurs
and hydrogen = bonds are=20 fractured, the proton is temporarily
freed, and can then combine with = a=20 remote oxygen molecule.
One has, in effect, bootstrapped a low amount = of=20 energy into
a high amount of energy, and done so "off-the-books" so=20 to
speak (if your books do not include ZPE). At least that is
the=20 hypothesis behind this.

The discovery and existence of an ice = transition=20 into a
ferroelectric phase has sparked considerable debate. = The
predicted=20 transition at 98K is in good agreement with the
observed transition = at 72K,=20 and the low temperature phase
resulting in the ferroelectric phase = has now=20 been determined
in diffraction experiments. This phase demands=20 proton
ordering, such as occurs when ice-3 changes to ice-9=20 under
pressure.

FERROELECTRIC adj. Of or relating to a=20 crystalline
dielectric that can be given a permanent = electric
polarization=20 by application of an electric field.

What this means, ultimately, = in=20 terms of being able to
engineer an additional "hidden" energy content = into=20 ice, due
to proton ordering, is not yet crystal clear, but = it
probably=20 means that certain forms of highly particulated ice
can hold an = applied=20 charge for extended periods, just like
any good ultra-capacitor. = After=20 undergoing explosive brittle
mechanical failure, they will then be = poised, at=20 the very
same time, to dump the additional entrained = electrical
charge=20 into the expanding redox explosion, adding to the
energy = multiplication=20 effect.

Ever hear of an "exploding capacitor"?

Check = google - you=20 will get over 8000 hits and some nice
images.

One more reason = why it=20 makes sense, as a future
transportation fuel, to consider the use of = a=20 hypothetical
new type of  liquid fuel: ice-9 entrained,=20 electrically-charged CA
(cryo-air) as a substitute fuel for use in an = internal combustion
engine (ICE).

There is the potential here = to=20 create in an ecologically
sound transportation fuel, with potentially = more=20 energy
content than is found in gasoline, at moderate cost, = and
with the=20 potential to be made (at least partly) at home.

At least this concept of exploding ice is worth mentioning once = again.... in light of Saturnine volatility, which ill-wind seems to be = the plate=20 du jour, even in Nawlins....

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0125_01C5AD7A.12475FD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 16:30:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7UNTQS8003868; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:29:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7UNTOqI003850; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:29:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:29:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.35.94] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Stangers on My Flight Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:29:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050830232903.YIWX1288.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.beecy.net/frank/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 17:59:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7V0wKlx012182; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:58:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7V0wEDb012126; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:58:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:58:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.35.94] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Stangers on My Flight Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:57:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050831005748.BHY1288.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > http://www.beecy.net/frank/ Oops! This was not intended for vortex. Sorry. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 18:49:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7V1mifV003571; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:48:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7V1mhJv003564; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:48:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:48:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050830184351.029b8748 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:49:02 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: New Orleans: 80 percent of the city under water Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 19:11:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7V2Al8V014014; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:11:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7V2AkWM013997; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:10:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:10:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016001c5add1$339107c0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050830184351.029b8748 mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: New Orleans: 80 percent of the city under water Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:10:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The latest news is that they are planning on evacuating the entire city of New Orleans. This is the worst thing I've seen in my life in the United States. 1st time martial law has been declared since WW2. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:49 PM Subject: New Orleans: 80 percent of the city under water > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina/index.html > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 30 20:47:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7V3l26i026955; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:47:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7V3ktQX026903; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:46:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:46:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c5adde$921546a0$0e027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Civilization's thin vaneer Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:46:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5ADB4.A8AE2230"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5ADB4.A8AE2230 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5ADB4.A8AFA8D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5ADB4.A8AFA8D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWatching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give = one an insight why the people need the right to keep and bare arms. In = times of great calamities, people show their base instincts were it = good or evil. The police cannot cope with mass looting of this scope, just stand by = and watch. the animals run wild. After the billions spent on FEMA, on = the US Army Corps of Engineers, for flood and levee projects, for = disaster planning, the city ceased to function and is underwater for = several weeks. No water , no power, no hospitals, no services.=20 As usual, the churches step in to help immediately while Bush decides to = ends his vacation.. well .. errr.. maybe just one more day and fly back = to Washington to take charge. Meanwhile every church has a fellowship = hall, food , kitchen, restroom, ready at a moments notice and = functioning to serve. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5ADB4.A8AFA8D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Watching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give = one an=20 insight why the people need the right to  keep and bare arms. = In times=20 of great calamities,  people show their base instincts were it good = or=20 evil.
 
The police cannot cope with  mass looting  of this scope, = just=20 stand by and watch. the animals run wild.  After the billions spent = on=20 FEMA, on the US Army Corps of Engineers, for flood and levee projects, = for=20 disaster planning, the city ceased to function and is underwater for = several=20 weeks. No water , no power, no hospitals, no services. 
 
As usual, the churches step in to help immediately while Bush = decides=20 to ends his vacation.. well .. errr.. maybe just one more day and = fly back=20 to Washington to take charge. Meanwhile every church has a fellowship = hall, food=20 , kitchen, restroom, ready at a moments notice and functioning to = serve.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5ADB4.A8AFA8D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5ADB4.A8AE2230 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c5adde$91733a40$0e027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5ADB4.A8AE2230-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 00:32:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7V7VXYd029338; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:31:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7V7VVXB029281; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:31:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:31:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20050831073100542.8477A1C00082 mwinf3206.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050831073102.009af578 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:31:02 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hal Fox on High Density Charge Clusters Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:38 pm 30/08/2005 -0400, Terry wrote: See the diagram. Looks a lot like MAHG. > http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/mar2/fox.htm > > Excerpt: > > "Kenneth Shoulders was the first to discover and > obtain a patent using HDCC technology.[2] > > When warned by his patent attorney that there was > a strong likelihood that his patent application > would be classified as secret by the government > officials that review new discoveries, Shoulders > responded by writing a book detailing much of the > experimental work that he had accomplished.[3] > > Then, immediately after he had filed the patent > application, he mailed copies of the book to a > list of several scientists in various countries. > As expected, the invention was classified, but > when the officials of the patent office asked > to know who had received his book, it was most > unfortunate that the computer had eaten the > address list. Within a few days, the patent > officials decided to give up on the classification. > Good for Ken. He's obviously got the right fighting spirit needed for scientific revolutions. "eaten the address list" I love it! I was amused and, I must confess, a little bit miffed to find the my "insight" that these things must be vortex rings had been well anticipated (see figure 3 of the above reference which dates back to 2002). Also, my suggestion that the Hutchison Effect was Shoulders EVOs writ large had also been implicitly anticipated by Ken's presentation earlier this year. Oh well, it's nice to know one is thinking along the right lines I suppose. Also, since I am coming to the phenomena from a very different direction, it's some kind of confirmation that one is on the right track. It's a bit like Ing.Saviour's independent finding on the nature of mass. There's a lot of good stuff in Fox's paper. I think I might be able to come up with a solution to the quantitization puzzle on the basis of materon polarization. I'll go away and think about it. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 01:47:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7V8lHxm027393; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:47:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7V8lAqb027340; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:47:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:47:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43156E72.8050803 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:46:42 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The New Republic article References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050830103613.03797cb0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050830103613.03797cb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Thomas malloy wrote: > >> Jed posted on an article published in the New Republic putting down >> cold fusion. The article is available by subscription only, however >> he posted the following URL >> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16414974%5E28737,00.html >> I pulled up the article and I didn't see any mention of CF, > > > there was just one throwaway comment: > > "It's not hard to imagine scams such as cold fusion or the > Scientologist critique of psychiatric drugs gaining ground in a world > where science's ability to identify knowledge has been undermined. . . ." > > it does not bother me so much when people say things like this, but > rather when they will not bother to read letters from Storms, me or > others telling them they are wrong. > > - Jed > > Er Jed that the "Australia" news paper you've sent us all. Are you sure the link has not got mixed up? The Australia is pro republic but we don't have a "new Republic" yet. T know what magazine your refering to but the line is not on the page linked to. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 02:26:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7V9Pghl009606; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:25:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7V9PeiU009583; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:25:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:25:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4315777D.3080503 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:25:17 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Civilization's thin vaneer References: <000a01c5adde$921546a0$0e027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <000a01c5adde$921546a0$0e027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Watching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give one > an insight why the people need the right to keep and bare arms. In > times of great calamities, people show their base instincts were it > good or evil. > > The police cannot cope with mass looting of this scope, just stand > by and watch. the animals run wild. After the billions spent on FEMA, > on the US Army Corps of Engineers, for flood and levee projects, for > disaster planning, the city ceased to function and is underwater for > several weeks. No water , no power, no hospitals, no services. > > As usual, the churches step in to help immediately while Bush decides > to ends his vacation.. well .. errr.. maybe just one more day and fly > back to Washington to take charge. Meanwhile every church has a > fellowship hall, food , kitchen, restroom, ready at a moments notice > and functioning to serve. > > Richard > > > Not all looting is looting. I was in a flood rescue situation once where the owner of the shop called togeather 50 people and headed to the shop. The rescue work at this stage was over. They stripped the shop bare in about an hour and many people came out wading through the water with boxes under their arms and a beer in a free hand. I stuck to icecreams. The fridges were dead and the hygene laws meant that mud soaked stuff could not be sold; so loot away. The perisables were passed out among the refugees in the church hall. If a passer by or reporter had seen it; it would have been obvously looting. The local cops didn't shoot us they were too bussy totting the contents of the bottle shop to their car! The waters stopped rusing soon after and we got to put some of the stuff back. Maybe we Australians do things differntly to you yanks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 02:45:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7V9jHTE017671; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:45:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7V9jFL9017643; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:45:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:45:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017f01c5ae10$b13b4b10$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <000a01c5adde$921546a0$0e027841 xptower> Subject: Re: Civilization's thin vaneer Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:45:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_017B_01C5ADEF.29D633E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_017B_01C5ADEF.29D633E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_017C_01C5ADEF.29D633E0" ------=_NextPart_001_017C_01C5ADEF.29D633E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFrom: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:46 PM Subject: Civilization's thin vaneer Watching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give one = an insight why the people need the right to keep and bare arms. In = times of great calamities, people show their base instincts were it = good or evil. The police cannot cope with mass looting of this scope, just stand = by and watch. the animals run wild. After the billions spent on FEMA, = on the US Army Corps of Engineers, for flood and levee projects, for = disaster planning, the city ceased to function and is underwater for = several weeks. No water , no power, no hospitals, no services.=20 As usual, the churches step in to help immediately while Bush decides = to ends his vacation.. well .. errr.. maybe just one more day and fly = back to Washington to take charge. Meanwhile every church has a = fellowship hall, food , kitchen, restroom, ready at a moments notice and = functioning to serve. Richard -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- This is one natural disaster that our government knew was going to = happen sooner or later (like a big earthquake in California). The fact = that there are so many problems afterwards, such as looting and even = flooding, can partly be blamed on bad planning. This is another reason = why the U.S. shouldn't be spending so much money on other countries. If = we had spent the last few decades strengthening the levees and putting = in modern pumping equipment with backup power, perhaps much of this = disaster could have been avoided. How rational is it to rely on pumps = that rely on grid power to operate in hurricane conditions? Of course, = the power is going to go out in a hurricane and of course the pumps will = stop working. Poor planning. They also could have inspected the levees = with modern equipment over the years and reinforced weak points that = gave away yesterday or redesigned them to be stronger, even rebuild them = altogether and perhaps build tunnels to carry the water away from the = city. I know it would have been billions to do, but so what? We just = spent $300 Billion + prosecuting a war overseas, we can't spend that = sort of money here to make a better country?!? This chaos in New = Orleans is partly a testament to our poor planning as a society for an = inevitable natural disaster. ------=_NextPart_001_017C_01C5ADEF.29D633E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 = 11:46=20 PM
Subject: Civilization's thin = vaneer

Watching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give = one an=20 insight why the people need the right to  keep and bare = arms. In=20 times of great calamities,  people show their base instincts were = it good=20 or evil.
 
The police cannot cope with  mass looting  of this = scope, just=20 stand by and watch. the animals run wild.  After the billions = spent on=20 FEMA, on the US Army Corps of Engineers, for flood and levee projects, = for=20 disaster planning, the city ceased to function and is underwater for = several=20 weeks. No water , no power, no hospitals, no = services. 
 
As usual, the churches step in to help immediately = while Bush=20 decides to ends his vacation.. well .. errr.. maybe just one more = day and=20 fly back to Washington to take charge. Meanwhile every church has a = fellowship=20 hall, food , kitchen, restroom, ready at a moments notice and = functioning to=20 serve.
 
Richard

This is one natural disaster that our government knew was going to = happen=20 sooner or later (like a big earthquake in California).  The fact = that=20 there are so many problems afterwards, such as looting and even = flooding, can=20 partly be blamed on bad planning.  This is another reason why the = U.S.=20 shouldn't be spending so much money on other countries.  If we = had spent=20 the last few decades strengthening the levees and putting in modern = pumping=20 equipment with backup power, perhaps much of this disaster could have = been=20 avoided.  How rational is it to rely on pumps that rely on grid = power to=20 operate in hurricane conditions?  Of course, the power is going = to go out=20 in a hurricane and of course the pumps will stop working.  Poor=20 planning.  They also could have inspected the levees with modern=20 equipment over the years and reinforced weak points that = gave away=20 yesterday or redesigned them to be stronger, even rebuild them = altogether and=20 perhaps build tunnels to carry the water away from the = city.  I know=20 it would have been billions to do, but so what?  We just spent = $300=20 Billion + prosecuting a war overseas, we can't spend that sort of = money=20 here to make a better country?!?  This chaos in New Orleans is = partly a=20 testament to our poor planning as a society for an inevitable natural=20 disaster.

------=_NextPart_001_017C_01C5ADEF.29D633E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_017B_01C5ADEF.29D633E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <017a01c5ae10$b09917a0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_017B_01C5ADEF.29D633E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 05:01:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VC0wAj010402; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:01:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VC0uVd010368; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:00:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:00:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Casmir, ZPE, Research in general Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:00:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <_s5afC.A.3hC.3vZFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rubbish. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Grimer Sent: 30 August 2005 19:19 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Casmir, ZPE, Research in general At 02:54 pm 30/08/2005 +0100, Cornwall wrote: > The Casmir effect is Van der Waals attraction. The Casimir effect is an external pressure on materials. It is an aspect of the Beta-atmosphere pressure which holds materials together. Read the paper below, GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. Structure, Solid Mechanics and Engineering Design. Proceedings of the Southampton 1969 Civil Engineering Conference. (M.Te'eni, Ed.), Wiley Interscience, pp 681 - 691, 1972. .....which you will find at, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ And if you want results from a recognition that this is so, then read, CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. A General Approach to the Strength of Materials. Speculations in Science and Technology, Vol.1, No.1, pp5 - 13, 1978. CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept with particular reference to concrete. Developments in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318. ...which you will also find in the Files Section and the Photo Section of the above Yahoo site. 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 06:39:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VDd2Mh024830; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:39:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VDcv1B024737; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:38:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:38:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831093736.04b66030 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:38:30 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The New Republic article In-Reply-To: <43156E72.8050803 iinet.net.au> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050830103613.03797cb0 pop.mindspring.com> <43156E72.8050803 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: >Er Jed that the "Australia" news paper you've sent us all. Are you sure >the link has not got mixed up? As noted, it was reprinted from the New Republic. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 06:43:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VDgUO8027113; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:42:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VDgPZ6027067; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:42:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:42:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831093919.042669d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:41:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Civilization's thin vaneer In-Reply-To: <4315777D.3080503 iinet.net.au> References: <000a01c5adde$921546a0$0e027841 xptower> <4315777D.3080503 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: >RC Macaulay wrote: > >>The police cannot cope with mass looting of this scope, just stand by >>and watch. the animals run wild. I have seen much worse looting. This is no big deal. The stuff is ruined anyway. >Not all looting is looting. I was in a flood rescue situation once where >the owner of the shop called togeather 50 people and headed to the shop. >The rescue work at this stage was over. They stripped the shop bare in >about an hour and many people came out wading through the water with boxes >under their arms and a beer in a free hand. I stuck to icecreams. The >fridges were dead and the hygene laws meant that mud soaked stuff could >not be sold; so loot away. Exactly. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 06:51:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VDon40031481; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:51:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VDomAO031461; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:50:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:50:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831094228.04b64140 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:50:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New Orleans: 80 percent of the city under water In-Reply-To: <016001c5add1$339107c0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050830184351.029b8748 mail.newenergytimes.com> <016001c5add1$339107c0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2sarOC.A.hrH.4WbFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Coviello wrote: >1st time martial law has been declared since WW2. Martial law has been declared many times, especially during the rioting in the 1960s. I do not know whether it has been declared after natural disasters, but I expect it has been. This storm was powerful and the effects were awful, but not unprecedented. It was partly bad luck. If the dikes in New Orleans had held, the damage would have been moderate. I am a little surprised there has been nothing in the national news claiming this was caused in part by global warming. I expect it was. The number of hurricanes and the average power of them has been increasing rapidly in the US and Japan. Yesterday, the Japanese Ministry of environment released a study claiming that global warming has changed the nature of the monsoon and typhoons in Japan. Rain has increased 10% and the power of the storms has increased by about 20%. I will translate more of this later on. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 07:16:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VEGG9U011911; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:16:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VEGEDM011872; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:16:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:16:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831100026.04a48570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:15:39 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Civilization's thin vaneer In-Reply-To: <000a01c5adde$921546a0$0e027841 xptower> References: <000a01c5adde$921546a0$0e027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >Watching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give one an >insight why the people need the right to keep and bare arms. Yes, short sleeve shirts are de rigueur for events of this nature. Seriously, I do not see why we need guns in situations like this. People can cause any amount of havoc with ordinary object such as clubs and rope. The 1923 Tokyo earthquake killed and dispossessed hundreds of thousands of people. Naturally, the angry citizens blamed a racial minority. The government, which had done nothing to prepare for the disaster, diverted attention by blaming Korean residents of Japan, claiming they were looting, lighting fires and poisoning well water. Large crowds of Japanese people led by right wing fanatics killed roughly 6,000 Koreans, beating them to death, lynching and burning them, while the police looked the other way. I have no love for looters, but if you really value ruined goods and melting ice cream more than people's lives, you can kill them without guns. If your goal is prevent looting (as opposed to just killing people), a neighborhood watch in cooperation with the police is the answer. Unfortunately that is impossible when most people in the neighborhood has fled. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 08:35:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VFY9p1020885; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VFY7Gl020868; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:33:46 -0500 Message-ID: <000601c5ae41$6245b550$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5AE17.796FAD50" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <411-220058627164612490 earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5AE17.796FAD50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C5AE17.796FAD50" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C5AE17.796FAD50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps a bit late, but any recommendations to offset grid dependence = this winter? I suspect the budget busting fuel costs last winter will pale = by comparison to this winter... even a wood fueled steam powered generator = is looking cost effective at this point. 8^( =20 Lots of talented people here... any interest in developing a practical "open-source/copy-left" backyard power generator? Might not be a bad = thread to put our pontifications to practice. =20 -john =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]=20 Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:46 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs About the only thing I can add, Richard, is that the "Energy Barons" as dictated by Cheney's Secret meeting on energy policy is set the price of all Fossil = fuel energy at $3.00 per Therm (100,000 BTU).=20 Gasoline, Diesel, (~.1.2 Therms/gallon) Propane (0.92 Therms/gallon) & = Home Heating Oil (~1.2 Therms/gallon ) & Electricity (~ 30 Kw-Hr/Therm). (Natural gas headed there) Hydrogen too ??? :-) =20 Frederick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay =20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 8/27/05 11:53:06 AM=20 Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Fred has a very important series of posts regarding vital moves = proposed for available energy resources that are being tragically ignored.=20 As a nation, we overlook readily available technology in energy = conservation and use because we have been seduced by artificially low fuel prices for purposes of which we are not yet aware.. =20 =20 We will need a " Marshall plan" to get us off "deadcenter". We are not running out of time.. we have already run out of time evidenced by the commodities market reflection of the price of crude. The price is based ..not on demand.. but on the " perception" of the status of oil supply vs. demand.=20 =20 I once heard a professional poker player say when another player was hesitant calling the play.. "you can't play poker with scared money". = The professionals in the oil game are aware, like sharks smelling blood, of = the prevailing fear permeating governments, industry and the people. The US Dept of Energy is hesitant, bound by politics and by poor and indecisive leadership. This hesitancy reflects a fear that results in inaction which leads to mischief and calculation by professinal poker players testing the pot watching to see who is "sweating". The scary = thought is they realize there is no longer any " limits". =20 This old world contains some really evil people that love to fish in troubled waters and love to watch and provoke. It is time the individual study his enrergy resources and plan for basic needs for shelter, food , clothing and fuel. Emphasis on FUEL. =20 Be wise to read everything Fred Sparber posts on this subject. So.. = Fred.. please continue witrh your thoughts because what you have to say is = really getting interesting. =20 Richard =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C5AE17.796FAD50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Perhaps a bit late, but any = recommendations=20 to offset grid dependence this winter?  I suspect the budget = busting=20 fuel costs last winter will pale by comparison to this winter...  = even a=20 wood fueled steam powered generator is looking cost effective at this=20 point.  8^(
 
Lots of talented people here... = any interest=20 in developing a practical "open-source/copy-left" backyard power=20 generator?  Might not be a bad thread to put our pontifications to=20 practice.
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick = Sparber=20 [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, = 2005=20 11:46 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Alleviating = Energy=20 Costs

About the only thing I can add, = Richard,=20  is that the "Energy Barons" as dictated by
Cheney's Secret meeting on energy = policy is set=20 the price of all Fossil fuel
energy at $3.00 per Therm (100,000=20 BTU). 
Gasoline, Diesel, (~.1.2 = Therms/gallon) Propane=20 (0.92 Therms/gallon) & Home Heating Oil (~1.2 Therms/gallon ) &=20 Electricity (~ 30 Kw-Hr/Therm).  (Natural gas headed there) =  Hydrogen=20 too ???  :-)
 
Frederick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: 8/27/05 11:53:06 AM =
Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy = Costs

Fred has  a very important series of posts = regarding vital=20 moves proposed for available energy resources that are being = tragically=20 ignored.=20
As a nation, we overlook readily available technology in energy=20 conservation and use because we have been seduced by artificially low = fuel=20 prices for purposes of which we are not yet aware..  
 
We will need a " Marshall plan" to get us off  "deadcenter". = We are=20 not running out of time.. we have already run out of time evidenced by = the=20 commodities market reflection of the price of crude. The price is = based=20 ..not on demand.. but on the
" perception" of the status of oil supply vs. demand.
 
 I once heard a professional poker player  say when = another=20 player was hesitant calling the play.. "you can't play poker with = scared=20 money". The professionals in the oil game are aware, like sharks = smelling=20 blood, of the prevailing fear permeating governments, industry and the = people.
The US Dept of Energy is hesitant, bound by politics and by poor = and=20 indecisive leadership. This hesitancy reflects a fear that = results in=20 inaction which leads to mischief and calculation by professinal poker = players=20 testing the pot watching to see who is "sweating". The scary thought = is they=20 realize there is no longer any " limits".
 
This old world contains some really evil people that love to = fish in=20 troubled waters and love to watch and provoke. It is time the = individual study=20 his enrergy resources and plan for basic needs for shelter, food , = clothing=20 and fuel. Emphasis on FUEL.
 
Be wise to read everything Fred Sparber posts on this subject. = So..=20 Fred.. please continue witrh your thoughts because what you have to = say is=20 really getting interesting.
 
Richard

 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C5AE17.796FAD50-- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5AE17.796FAD50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <436302313 31082005-0CB2> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5AE17.796FAD50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 08:35:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VFYJoe020995; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VFYHTT020932; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Sing the Universe Electric Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:33:46 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01c5ae41$62dbdad0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <000801c5aab9$6e754ce0$8c027841 xptower> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7VFXnZr020623 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Agree. Just more super-personification of children by their parents IMO. The list below describes every 5 year old boy I've ever met. I suspect many of us on this list are still "indigo children"... 8^) --- They come into the world with a feeling of royalty (and often act like it) They have a feeling of "deserving to be here," and are surprised when others don't share that. Self-worth is not a big issue. They often tell the parents "who they are." They have difficulty with absolute authority (authority without explanation or choice). They simply will not do certain things; for example, waiting in line is difficult for them. They get frustrated with systems that are ritually oriented and don't require creative thought. They often see better ways of doing things, both at home and in school, which makes them seem like "system busters" (nonconforming to any system). They seem antisocial unless they are with their own kind. If there are no others of like consciousness around them, they often turn inward, feeling like no other human understands them. School is often extremely difficult for them socially. They will not respond to "guilt" discipline ("Wait till your father gets home and finds out what you did"). They are not shy in letting you know what they need. --- -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 10:43 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sing the Universe Electric Terry, He isn't an "Indigo" child. These " movements" like the Indigo programs and such scare me. He is just an extremely bright child brought up in a loving normal home with nurturing and allowed to progress at his super fast speed without the attendent abstractions of parential " push and shove" toward a " master race" ego mentality. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 9:08 PM Subject: Re: Sing the Universe Electric >> From: "RC Macaulay" > >> On a side note, my 7 year old youngest grandson, a child prodigy, > > An Indigo child? > > http://www.indigochild.com/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 08:35:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VFYUI3021096; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VFYOHk021040; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:34:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Civilization's thin vaneer Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:33:46 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5ae41$6178a150$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5AE17.78A29950" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <017f01c5ae10$b13b4b10$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <8KChzD.A.-GF.23cFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5AE17.78A29950 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C5AE17.78A50A50" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C5AE17.78A50A50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is anyone else curious as to what if anything was being done to cause = the downgrade to category 4 just prior to landfall and the subsequent rapid disintegration of the front? Our recent thread on contrails and weather modification efforts keeps playing back in my head....=20 =20 -john =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello [mailto:johnwc patmedia.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:45 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Civilization's thin vaneer From: RC Macaulay =20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:46 PM Subject: Civilization's thin vaneer Watching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give one an insight why the people need the right to keep and bare arms. In times = of great calamities, people show their base instincts were it good or = evil. =20 The police cannot cope with mass looting of this scope, just stand by = and watch. the animals run wild. After the billions spent on FEMA, on the = US Army Corps of Engineers, for flood and levee projects, for disaster planning, the city ceased to function and is underwater for several = weeks. No water , no power, no hospitals, no services.=20 =20 As usual, the churches step in to help immediately while Bush decides to ends his vacation.. well .. errr.. maybe just one more day and fly back = to Washington to take charge. Meanwhile every church has a fellowship hall, food , kitchen, restroom, ready at a moments notice and functioning to serve. =20 Richard _____ =20 This is one natural disaster that our government knew was going to = happen sooner or later (like a big earthquake in California). The fact that = there are so many problems afterwards, such as looting and even flooding, can partly be blamed on bad planning. This is another reason why the U.S. shouldn't be spending so much money on other countries. If we had spent = the last few decades strengthening the levees and putting in modern pumping equipment with backup power, perhaps much of this disaster could have = been avoided. How rational is it to rely on pumps that rely on grid power to operate in hurricane conditions? Of course, the power is going to go = out in a hurricane and of course the pumps will stop working. Poor planning. = They also could have inspected the levees with modern equipment over the = years and reinforced weak points that gave away yesterday or redesigned them = to be stronger, even rebuild them altogether and perhaps build tunnels to = carry the water away from the city. I know it would have been billions to do, = but so what? We just spent $300 Billion + prosecuting a war overseas, we = can't spend that sort of money here to make a better country?!? This chaos in = New Orleans is partly a testament to our poor planning as a society for an inevitable natural disaster. ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C5AE17.78A50A50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Is anyone else curious as to what = if=20 anything was being done to cause the downgrade to category 4 just prior = to=20 landfall and the subsequent rapid disintegration of the front?  Our = recent=20 thread on contrails and weather modification efforts keeps playing back = in my=20 head.... 
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: John Coviello=20 [mailto:johnwc patmedia.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 = 4:45=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: = Civilization's thin=20 vaneer

From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 = 11:46=20 PM
Subject: Civilization's thin = vaneer

Watching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give = one an=20 insight why the people need the right to  keep and bare = arms. In=20 times of great calamities,  people show their base instincts were = it good=20 or evil.
 
The police cannot cope with  mass looting  of this = scope, just=20 stand by and watch. the animals run wild.  After the billions = spent on=20 FEMA, on the US Army Corps of Engineers, for flood and levee projects, = for=20 disaster planning, the city ceased to function and is underwater for = several=20 weeks. No water , no power, no hospitals, no = services. 
 
As usual, the churches step in to help immediately = while Bush=20 decides to ends his vacation.. well .. errr.. maybe just one more = day and=20 fly back to Washington to take charge. Meanwhile every church has a = fellowship=20 hall, food , kitchen, restroom, ready at a moments notice and = functioning to=20 serve.
 
Richard

This is one natural disaster that our government knew was going to = happen=20 sooner or later (like a big earthquake in California).  The fact = that=20 there are so many problems afterwards, such as looting and even = flooding, can=20 partly be blamed on bad planning.  This is another reason why the = U.S.=20 shouldn't be spending so much money on other countries.  If we = had spent=20 the last few decades strengthening the levees and putting in modern = pumping=20 equipment with backup power, perhaps much of this disaster could have = been=20 avoided.  How rational is it to rely on pumps that rely on grid = power to=20 operate in hurricane conditions?  Of course, the power is going = to go out=20 in a hurricane and of course the pumps will stop working.  Poor=20 planning.  They also could have inspected the levees with modern=20 equipment over the years and reinforced weak points that = gave away=20 yesterday or redesigned them to be stronger, even rebuild them = altogether and=20 perhaps build tunnels to carry the water away from the = city.  I know=20 it would have been billions to do, but so what?  We just spent = $300=20 Billion + prosecuting a war overseas, we can't spend that sort of = money=20 here to make a better country?!?  This chaos in New Orleans is = partly a=20 testament to our poor planning as a society for an inevitable natural=20 disaster.

------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C5AE17.78A50A50-- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5AE17.78A29950 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <840040114 31082005-0CB9> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5AE17.78A29950-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 08:48:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VFm7aL029796; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:48:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VFm610029778; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:48:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:48:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: RE: Civilization's thin vaneer Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:44:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050831154437.EXST17580.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Steck" >Is anyone else curious as to what if anything was being done to cause the downgrade to category 4 just prior to landfall and the subsequent rapid disintegration of the front? Our recent thread on contrails and weather modification efforts keeps playing back in my head.... While I would not exclude HAARP intervention: http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050831/NEWS08/508310400/1025/NEWS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 08:54:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VFs0c8001405; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:54:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VFrV6v000990; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:53:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:53:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c5ae44$0d4cbff0$8f027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:52:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5AE1A.23F049E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5AE1A.23F049E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C5AE1A.23F049E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C5AE1A.23F049E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Steck wrote... Perhaps a bit late, but any recommendations to offset grid dependence = this winter? I suspect the budget busting fuel costs last winter will = pale by comparison to this winter... even a wood fueled steam powered = generator is looking cost effective at this point. 8^( Lots of talented people here... any interest in developing a practical = "open-source/copy-left" backyard power generator? Might not be a bad = thread to put our pontifications to practice. John,=20 Take a look at Schauberger's windmill design on the below link. Notice = the wave plates. We are designing a shape for testing a vacuum = -pressure inductor using this wave form idea to see if we can get a = transition from 20" hg vacuum to above 150 psi in a single stage gas = transfer. If it works, the idea Schauberger has for a windmill should = work. The basic physics principles of Schauberger's work can be = understood BUT>> why don't we see much in the way of working examples ? http://home5.swipnet.se/%7Ew-58759/windmill/windmill.html Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C5AE1A.23F049E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Steck wrote...
 
 
Perhaps a bit late, but any = recommendations=20 to offset grid dependence this winter?  I suspect the budget = busting=20 fuel costs last winter will pale by comparison to this winter...  = even a=20 wood fueled steam powered generator is looking cost effective at this=20 point.  8^(
 
Lots of talented people here... = any interest=20 in developing a practical "open-source/copy-left" backyard power=20 generator?  Might not be a bad thread to put our pontifications to=20 practice.
 
John,
Take a look at Schauberger's = windmill design=20 on the below link. Notice the wave plates. We are designing a shape for = testing=20 a  vacuum -pressure inductor using this wave form idea to see if we = can=20 get  a transition from 20" hg vacuum to above 150 psi in a single = stage gas=20 transfer. If it works, the idea Schauberger has for a windmill should = work. The=20 basic physics principles of Schauberger's work can be understood = BUT>> why=20 don't we see much in the way of working examples ?
http:/= /home5.swipnet.se/%7Ew-58759/windmill/windmill.html
 
Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C5AE1A.23F049E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5AE1A.23F049E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c5ae44$0cb27bc0$8f027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5AE1A.23F049E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 10:32:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VHVR6R027136; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:31:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VHVPJc027092; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:31:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:31:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831132444.0499d900 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:30:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0YDYPC.A.KnG.sleFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: a friend of mine with an SUV just called. She went to three gas stations in Atlanta and they were out of gasoline. The fourth one, Citigo, was selling premium gasoline at $3.50 per gallon and they expect the price to rise to $4.00 within a few days. I told her "serves you right for driving that big car!" It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner or later. I expect this is a deliberately induced shortage, and it will be temporary. Atlanta is gasoline pipeline distribution point for most of the East Coast and we have millions of tons of gasoline about 2 miles from where I am sitting, so I think is extremely unlikely there is an actual shortage. But fundamentally there is a worldwide shortage of oil and it will only get worse. My wife is worried there may be riots, but I doubt it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 10:42:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VHfKNa001574; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:41:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VHfIvE001526; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:41:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:41:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831133933.04984850 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:40:49 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831132444.0499d900 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831132444.0499d900 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j7VHevjF001217 Resent-Message-ID: <7rNnVB.A.yX.8ueFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Woops. Maybe it is not an artificial shortage. See: http://www.ajc.com/news/content/business/0805/31bizgasprices.html "The two pipelines that bring gasoline and jet fuel to the region are down ­ powerless to pump as Hurricane Katrina wreaked havoc on electrical infrastructure. The metro Atlanta region generally has about a 10-day supply of gasoline in inventory, said BP spokesman Michael Kumpf. The pipelines have been down for two days. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 11:28:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VIS4fd026017; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:28:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VIS22a026000; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:28:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:28:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D74423 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.c om> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C509D74423 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.c om> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:27:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Schauberger Effects Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <4UfPX.A.-VG.xafFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Re: Schauberger Effects
Chris Zell posted;

Has anyone ever read about any documented effects similar to what
Schauberger claimed?  If there is any reality to what he claimed, then
somebody
must have observed something similar.

...........tornadoes or negative viscosity, perhaps.

Thanks


If you investigate this man's work please let me know what you think.
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 11:32:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VIVxi4028321; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:32:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VIVs5w028270; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:31:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:31:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050831112509.0295bfa8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:32:16 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831133933.04984850 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831132444.0499d900 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050831133933.04984850 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >The metro Atlanta region generally has about a 10-day supply of gasoline >in inventory, Wow. I'm typically not a doom 'n gloomer type, but this is scary. And the northeast grid shutdown in 2003? Methinks we ain't seen nothin' yet. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 11:43:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VIgu6m000938; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:43:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VIgsSK000918; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:42:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:42:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:42:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Where's the energy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am still looking for an answer to the question i posed, are CF researchers seeing as much energy as they would expect to see if the same number of reactions were occurring under hot fusion? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 12:53:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VJrO0g006281; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:53:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VJrIJc006210; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:53:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:53:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:52:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050831195257.KDBY17580.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > Woops. Maybe it is not an artificial shortage. See: > > http://www.ajc.com/news/content/business/0805/31bizgasprices.html > > "The two pipelines that bring gasoline and jet fuel to the region are down > ­ powerless to pump as Hurricane Katrina wreaked havoc on electrical > infrastructure. > > The metro Atlanta region generally has about a 10-day supply of gasoline in > inventory, said BP spokesman Michael Kumpf. The pipelines have been down > for two days. . . ." Well, the timing is perfect: http://www.gasolineboycottday.org/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 13:31:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VKUQAO025220; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:30:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VKUNOl025174; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:30:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:30:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Disasters Waiting to Happen Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:29:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050831202958.KZCZ17580.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <5pHD6D.A.OJG.eNhFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This report was issued late last year. It's an accessment of what would have happened to NOLA had hurricane Ivan hit. Shirley hit it right on and made recommendations. She also forecast 40 to 60,000 dead. Now they are admitting that thousands could be dead. Whispers I'm hearing inside the engineering community is 5,000 to 50,000 throughout the area affected. Ms. Laske worked at the University of New Orleans. I hope she made it out. http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/o/nov04/nov04c.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 13:46:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VKk0WE002523; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:46:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VKjt3e002434; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:45:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:45:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:45:47 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: "A student-oriented project" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A student-oriented project: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/252clauzon.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 13:46:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VKk1rg002539; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:46:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VKjwEM002472; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:45:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:45:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4316175A.6000200 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:47:22 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Where's the energy References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The only way to answer this question is to know how many nuclear events are occurring per second. In hot fusion, this rate can be measured by measuring the neutron production rate. This quaNTITY is then compared it to the energy being produced. This comparison is not possible during cold fusion because He-4 is made instead of neutrons. However, when energy production is compared to the amount of He-4, the result is consistent with the known amount of energy that should result from this reaction. This comparison is discussed in "A Student's Guide to Cold Fusion" that is on the LENR website. Regards, Ed thomas malloy wrote: > I am still looking for an answer to the question i posed, are CF > researchers seeing as much energy as they would expect to see if the > same number of reactions were occurring under hot fusion? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 16:32:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VNWHDO003682; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:32:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VNWCpr003645; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:32:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:32:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.23.81] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Panic in Atlanta - Strange Commute Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:31:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050831233150.GAER27902.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Panic sets in in Atlanta. 93 Octane is $3.89 and the lines remind me of the crisis of c. '76. Gas lines are spilling into highways and people are literally fighting. There is no pleasure in vindication. It took me longer to get home than when it snows. BTW, diesel is still $2.60. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 16:35:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VNYdCH004755; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:34:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VNYcZ3004737; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:34:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:34:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ae01c5ae84$8a84eb10$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831132444.0499d900 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:34:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: sss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:30 PM Subject: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta >a friend of mine with an SUV just called. She went to three gas stations in >Atlanta and they were out of gasoline. The fourth one, Citigo, was selling >premium gasoline at $3.50 per gallon and they expect the price to rise to >$4.00 within a few days. > > I told her "serves you right for driving that big car!" It serves the > whole damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people > who drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen > sooner or later. > > I expect this is a deliberately induced shortage, and it will be > temporary. Atlanta is gasoline pipeline distribution point for most of the > East Coast and we have millions of tons of gasoline about 2 miles from > where I am sitting, so I think is extremely unlikely there is an actual > shortage. But fundamentally there is a worldwide shortage of oil and it > will only get worse. My wife is worried there may be riots, but I doubt > it. > > - Jed I heard on CNBC that one of the pipelines to Atlanta is expected to have power by tomorrow evening. Not sure if the gasoline will be flowing, but at least there is light at the end of the tunnel. I agree, this is just an indication of the energy problems to come. Now we can all see just how quickly a commodity can move up in price when it's in short supply. What will happen when peak oil is reached? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 16:38:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7VNc7qk006124; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:38:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j7VNc6qq006108; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:38:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:38:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01b501c5ae85$0bda0c90$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <20050831233150.GAER27902.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Panic in Atlanta - Strange Commute Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:38:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <5E9_vC.A.YfB.e9jFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:31 PM Subject: Panic in Atlanta - Strange Commute > Panic sets in in Atlanta. 93 Octane is $3.89 and the lines remind me of > the crisis of c. '76. Gas lines are spilling into highways and people are > literally fighting. > > There is no pleasure in vindication. It took me longer to get home than > when it snows. > > BTW, diesel is still $2.60. > Yes, diesel here is also not tracking gasoline exactly?!? It's about 40 cents cheaper. Gas prices are all over the map in New Jersey, from $2.50 to $3.40. Just within a few miles you see a variety of prices. I saw a small line at a cheaper station. I hope this wakes people up, but that is doubtful. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 17:41:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j810ehgq031707; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:40:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j810efo2031686; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:40:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:40:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005201c5ae8d$54335840$94c4163f oemcomputer> From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831132444.0499d900 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:37:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, 31 August, 2005 01:30 PM Subject: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta > I told her "serves you right for driving that big car!" It serves the whole > damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who > drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner > or later. You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not the only one here who is getting a little tired of the holier than thou tirades. You drive a Prius, that's great. Enjoy it. I'm happy for you that you are happy with it. But guess what? Not all of us make as much money as you do. I am a full time Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing home a little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the least, sucks. Especially here in the "great" state of New York, where everything is illegal, there are cops out to get your money to offset Albany's stupidity and the Erie county budget crisis, etc, where insurance is ridiculously expensive, etc. I barely get by. Most of the people here do. Do I just need to work harder? How? You try lugging around transaxles all day long, for 40-42 hours a week, see if you can work harder! Get it straight, now: I CANNOT AFFORD A GOD DAMNED HYBRID!!!!! All I can afford are old, used cars, which are your hated gas guzzlers. I work ~15 miles from home as well, you want me to bike there? In the snow drifts? Not to mention that the buses here are DREADFUL, never on time, and half the time don't stop for you, they just keep going. Wake up, there is nothing else I or a large part of the working class can do about any of this! You want me to drive a ULEV/Hybrid? Then you get someone to sell me one for a price I can afford. And at $12k/yr, it better be damned cheap. If you have no alternative for those of us who work our rear-ends off for so little, then I suggest you kindly lay the hell off. And by the way, as far as SUV's go, I hate the damned things, because they are built like &%^$. I work on these things daily, and they are overcomplicated junk. If only I could find a nice, old diesel Dasher......50mpg would be nice. Guy down the street sold his a while back for $1500. If I'd have known, it would be mine now. The Prius is new....I am waiting to see what happens when the windings get fried by the salt environment of good old Buffalo. Anyone ever hear the phrase "shit happens"? That's what this storm is all about. I'll bet dollars to donuts that this has nothing to do with "global warming", which whether it is really that big a deal or not, whether we are the root cause or not, is the catch all for every problem in this day and age. People have to blame something, and to feel like it is our fault, and we can do something about it (whether we choose to or not) makes people feel much better than having to say, "you know, we can't control everything...there are forces greater than ourselves, and sometimes we just can do NOTHING." I am sorry if this offends my fellow Vortexians, I am not in a good way right now. My hometown is Ocean Springs Mississippi, a 15 minute drive from Biloxi, and my family is there. No communications with them. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 17:53:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j810rOTg003797; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:53:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j810rM1F003772; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:53:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:53:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.60.134] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: NOLA Catch-22 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:53:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050901005301.FHJH10334.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry I don't have the refs handy but from what I can determine: 1) The Corps of Engineers say that, with all pumps running (and the levee's patched), they can pump 1 inch out of the NOLA bowl in 44 hours. They say that it will take 9 weeks to take the water out. 2) The power company says that they can restore the grid in 4 to 5 weeks after the water is removed. But, as others have stated, the pumps run on electricity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 17:55:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j810sx9J004859; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:55:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j810sv7u004833; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:54:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:54:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01de01c5ae8f$c86adc90$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831132444.0499d900 pop.mindspring.com> <005201c5ae8d$54335840$94c4163f@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:55:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, 31 August, 2005 01:30 PM > Subject: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta > > > > >> I told her "serves you right for driving that big car!" It serves the > whole >> damn nation right. I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who >> drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen >> sooner >> or later. > > You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not the only one here > who > is getting a little tired of the holier than thou tirades. You drive a > Prius, that's great. Enjoy it. I'm happy for you that you are happy with > it. > But guess what? Not all of us make as much money as you do. I am a full > time > Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing > home > a little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the least, sucks. Especially here > in > the "great" state of New York, where everything is illegal, there are cops > out to get your money to offset Albany's stupidity and the Erie county > budget crisis, etc, where insurance is ridiculously expensive, etc. I > barely > get by. Most of the people here do. Do I just need to work harder? How? > You > try lugging around transaxles all day long, for 40-42 hours a week, see if > you can work harder! Get it straight, now: I CANNOT AFFORD A GOD DAMNED > HYBRID!!!!! > > All I can afford are old, used cars, which are your hated gas guzzlers. I > work ~15 miles from home as well, you want me to bike there? In the snow > drifts? Not to mention that the buses here are DREADFUL, never on time, > and > half the time don't stop for you, they just keep going. Wake up, there is > nothing else I or a large part of the working class can do about any of > this! You want me to drive a ULEV/Hybrid? Then you get someone to sell me > one for a price I can afford. And at $12k/yr, it better be damned cheap. > If > you have no alternative for those of us who work our rear-ends off for so > little, then I suggest you kindly lay the hell off. And by the way, as far > as SUV's go, I hate the damned things, because they are built like &%^$. I > work on these things daily, and they are overcomplicated junk. > > If only I could find a nice, old diesel Dasher......50mpg would be nice. > Guy > down the street sold his a while back for $1500. If I'd have known, it > would > be mine now. The Prius is new....I am waiting to see what happens when the > windings get fried by the salt environment of good old Buffalo. > > Anyone ever hear the phrase "shit happens"? That's what this storm is all > about. I'll bet dollars to donuts that this has nothing to do with "global > warming", which whether it is really that big a deal or not, whether we > are > the root cause or not, is the catch all for every problem in this day and > age. People have to blame something, and to feel like it is our fault, and > we can do something about it (whether we choose to or not) makes people > feel > much better than having to say, "you know, we can't control > everything...there are forces greater than ourselves, and sometimes we > just > can do NOTHING." > > I am sorry if this offends my fellow Vortexians, I am not in a good way > right now. My hometown is Ocean Springs Mississippi, a 15 minute drive > from > Biloxi, and my family is there. No communications with them. > > --Kyle I just want to add that I too do not want to see people hurt by these price increases. I know many people are struggling. What I would like to see is pressure put on Washington to change our energy paradigm so we don't have these gas crises anymore. If Washington and the auto companies had pressure to produce more efficient vehicles, then even those of us, including myself, who buy cars in the used market would have more options to buy more fuel efficient used vehicles. Let's face it, we wouldn't be in the gas shortage pickel we are in today if we as a nation pursued more fuel efficient vehicles since the original gasoline crises in the 1970s. We got lazy as a nation and now everyone is paying the price. That is what I meant about waking up. I know individuals are often limited in their choices by financial considerations. -- John C From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 18:00:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j81104nE007077; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:00:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j81102Ek007044; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:00:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:00:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01eb01c5ae90$7c418700$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <20050901005301.FHJH10334.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: NOLA Catch-22 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:00:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:53 PM Subject: NOLA Catch-22 > Sorry I don't have the refs handy but from what I can determine: > > 1) The Corps of Engineers say that, with all pumps running (and the > levee's patched), they can pump 1 inch out of the NOLA bowl in 44 hours. > They say that it will take 9 weeks to take the water out. > > 2) The power company says that they can restore the grid in 4 to 5 weeks > after the water is removed. > > But, as others have stated, the pumps run on electricity. > We will eventually abandon most of New Orleans later this Century. Global warming will ensure that the sea retakes New Orleans either by more power storms or rising sea levels or both. This is the first shot against New Orleans. I guess the city on higher ground will survive, but in the long run the lower lying parts od NOLA will probably be returned to its owner (nature). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 18:09:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j8118OLr009872; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:08:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j8118N7m009846; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:08:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:08:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DD79F caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: FW: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:55:09 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just got wind from an outside source that BLP and Carrier Corporation (part of the United Technologies group) are up to something with R&D on a "new technology" for home and commercial heating systems. UTC C. Corp. is currently nearing completion of their major expansion of the engineering building- quadrupling it's size for an unspecified project. As I work for Carrier in Australia I am currently trying to investigate this further from my end but I have not heard anything from here to date. If any Vorts in the US have any knowledge about this or contacts within UTC I would appreciate the help. As per usual in the corporate world one country branch does not necessarily communicate with their counterparts that well. John Rudiger Perth WA Ph:- 08 9232 7150 Fax:- 08 9232 7155 Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, 27 August 2005 5:58 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs With fossil fuel energy (Heating, Cooling & Motor Fuel) cost heading toward $3.00/therm or $30.00/million BTU, an insulated 5,000 -10,000 gallon (poured concrete) water storage tank buried in the back yard (at a safe distance from the septic tank if you have one) can store about 4 million BTU/day off a heat pump condensing side in the summer and dumped at night with a fan-coil unit or a cooling tower. A roof-mount Solar Heat collector should be able to store a few million BTU/day when the heat pump condensing side is warming the house. Since I'm about ready to go to central air conditioning (I scrapped the evaporative cooler ^ switched to area refrigerated units) and doing some digging in the flower garden of this small (city) back yard.... :-) Glauber's Salt costs about $70.00 per ton (and getting cheaper as more Coal-Burning power plants need to turn SO2 into dirt cheap H2SO4). In 1986 Anhydrous H2SO4 was $5.00/ton at a Southwestern Power Plant. The expense was in the 20 ton tanker truck transportation costs. 1, 2 SO2 + O2 -----> 2 SO3 2, 2 SO3 + 2 H2O ------> 2 H2SO4 (Anhydrous) 2 NaCl + H2SO4 -----> Na2SO4 + 2 HCl Na2SO4 + 10 H2O -----> Na2SO4-10H2O Phase Change: 90 Degrees F 108 BTU/LB http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/factsheets/b103.html Glauber's salt (sodium sulfate decahydrate), calcium chloride hexahydrate, and paraffin wax are the most commonly used PCMs in solar heating systems. Although these compounds are fairly inexpensive, the packaging and processing necessary to get consistent and reliable performance from them is complicated and costly. http://chemicals.etacude.com/s/sodium_sulfate2.php Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 18:16:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j811GLMT013483; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:16:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j811GK13013463; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:16:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:16:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050831165443.02adfaf8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:05:15 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [OT] Disasters Waiting to Happen In-Reply-To: <20050831202958.KZCZ17580.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bells outh.net> References: <20050831202958.KZCZ17580.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fascinating, informative report..thanks Terry. "Contraflow," that's what they called it. Good term. I'm glad they eventually used it. The photo of NO I saw with 99.9 percent outbound traffic seemed to beg for its implementation. I have seen this work quite well in the Malibu fires a few years ago where they converted most of Pacific Coast Hwy to southbound traffic. s At 01:29 PM 8/31/2005, you wrote: >This report was issued late last year. It's an accessment of what would >have happened to NOLA had hurricane Ivan hit. Shirley hit it right on and >made recommendations. She also forecast 40 to 60,000 dead. > >Now they are admitting that thousands could be dead. Whispers I'm hearing >inside the engineering community is 5,000 to 50,000 throughout the area >affected. > >Ms. Laske worked at the University of New Orleans. I hope she made it out. > >http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/o/nov04/nov04c.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 18:28:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j811RhXt016845; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:28:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j811RgtQ016838; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:27:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:27:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3233136.1125538046816.JavaMail.root mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:27:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NOLA Catch-22 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <63dO9B.A.-GE.OklFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: "2) The power company says that they can restore the grid in 4 to 5 weeks after the water is removed. But, as others have stated, the pumps run on electricity." I am sure they thought of this! There must be a way to restore critical parts of the grid, including the pumps. The power often fails in Atlanta, and they restore it section by section, sometimes over many days. Maybe I should not be too sure though. One of the worst and most expensive nuclear power generator accidents in the U.S. (the runner-up to TMI) was caused because all three redundant control systems ran down the same hallway, which was destroyed by a fire. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 18:59:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j811xJXr026924; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:59:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j811xIuf026916; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:59:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:59:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <31418994.1125539942674.JavaMail.root mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:59:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle Mcallister writes: "> I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for people who > drive gas guzzlers. They should have known this was going to happen sooner > or later. You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not the only one here who is getting a little tired of the holier than thou tirades. You drive a Prius, that's great. Enjoy it. I'm happy for you that you are happy with it. But guess what? Not all of us make as much money as you do. I am a full time Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing home a little over $12,000/yr." Sorry, let me amend that. I have zero sympathy for RICH people who drive new gas guzzler SUVs and Hummers. I have tons of sympathy for people like you who have no choice -- and I know several both here in Atlanta and in Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, things are going to get worse for you because in a few years when half the used cars will be SUVs. "Get it straight, now: I CANNOT AFFORD A GOD DAMNED HYBRID!!!!!" On the other hand, since you read this forum, you probably have a good grasp of engineering, and you buy the most fuel-efficient car you can, and to keep the tires properly filled and the engine in good shape. You probably conserve in other ways, such as by using compact flourescent lights. People who do that are part of the solution, whether they are rich or poor. "Not to mention that the buses here are DREADFUL, never on time, and half the time don't stop for you, they just keep going." You should organize a protest, write to the editor, and raise hell to fix that problem. Given the critical shortages of gasoline, that is outrageous. That is the kind of thing that can be fixed. "Wake up, there is nothing else I or a large part of the working class can do about any of this!" Wake up yourself. There are lots of things you can do to conserve -- and you probably do them, as I said. Here is something else you can do: vote for candidates who say they will fix those buses and raise the CAFE standards. If there are no candidates who say that, then you should run yourself, by golly. It pays better than your present job. People everywhere are yearning for leadership, and in a democratic society it is up to the citizens to lead, if no one else will. If you run, and I like your platform, I will contribute to your campaign funding. "You want me to drive a ULEV/Hybrid? Then you get someone to sell me one for a price I can afford. And at $12k/yr, it better be damned cheap. If you have no alternative for those of us who work our rear-ends off for so little, then I suggest you kindly lay the hell off." Since you are a mechanic you know the alternatives better than I do. "And by the way, as far as SUV's go, I hate the damned things, because they are built like &%^$. I work on these things daily, and they are overcomplicated junk." Amen to that. See the book "High and Mighty." "If only I could find a nice, old diesel Dasher......50mpg would be nice. Guy down the street sold his a while back for $1500." I used to have one like that -- an Isuzu diesel. Great car! A friend of mine is selling diesel replacement engines for Cessna aircraft. They sell replacement gas engines at the auto parts store near my house. I wonder if there is such thing as a replacement diesels for older cars? I suppose not, since they are so complicated and model-specific. . . . If there were such a thing, I am sure you would be qualified to install them. I predict that gasoline will never fall below $3 again, and that kind of thing will be a booming business soon. "Anyone ever hear the phrase 'shit happens'? That's what this storm is all about. I'll bet dollars to donuts that this has nothing to do with 'global warming' . . ." On what basis would you make that bet? Yesterday, the Japanese Ministry of the Environment officially said they think it *was* caused by global warming. They have measured far more typhoons and Atlantic hurricanes than ever before, and these storms are 20% stronger than they have been for the last century. They have previously said that the ocean water is 1 or 2 deg C warmer than ever, and the Inland Sea level has risen several centimeters. Why are you so sure you know better than the Environmental Min.? I will grant they may be wrong, but they do not go around saying thing like that on a whim, and they have a huge amount of evidence to back up their claim. Of course the U.S. government will not say anything like this, but is administration policy. I am sure most U.S. experts agree these severe storms are caused by global warming. There is, at this moment, a typhoon of unprecidented strength bearing down on Japan. The storms in Japan last year and this year were by far the worst in modern history. People there take this subject seriously. "People have to blame something, and to feel like it is our fault, and we can do something about it (whether we choose to or not) . . ." In this case, people are right. This is like infectious disease: it originates in nature, but we have made it into a problem and we have the power to fix it. "My hometown is Ocean Springs Mississippi, a 15 minute drive from Biloxi, and my family is there. No communications with them." I would say I am praying for them, but alas I am stone cold atheist, and I do not pray for anything. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 19:00:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j811xms7027064; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:00:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j811xkPZ027026; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:59:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:59:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vkfg$1cp8bva mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,159,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1502883818:sNHT14840886" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:59:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8qpuxC.A.HmG.QCmFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Kyle Mcallister" > > From: "Jed Rothwell" > > > > I told her "serves you right for driving that big car!" > > It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, > > but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas > > guzzlers. They should have known this was going to > > happen sooner or later. > > You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not > the only one here whois getting a little tired of the > holier than thou tirades. ... [snip] FWIW, most vortexians completely understand and sympathize with the fact that low-income individuals & families cannot afford to purchase expensive energy efficient hybrids. It is, in fact, one of the vexing problems with the current market of energy efficiency vehicles - they ain't cheap. Ya gott be rich to afford them. I can't afford one either. I can't speak for Jed, but what personally bothers me are those who DO make a decent income and therefore CAN afford to purchase any kind of car on the market. But what do many of them long for? What really jerks their chain? The biggest, meanest, the most powerful testosterone looking gas guzzling SUV they can get their hands on. Why? Because owning a SUV gives them the illusion that once they are behind the wheel they are sitting in the seat of power. The irony of those who buy into this illusion is that the more their SUV guzzles gas the more powerless they actually become because they have less discretionary income left in their wallets. My piston is bigger than yours! OPEC couldn't be happier. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 19:12:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j812CDJA001378; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:12:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j812CB0v001360; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:12:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:12:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48u2fu$17qdd2e mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,159,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1336325198:sNHT15306504" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: Subject: Re: FW: Alleviating Energy Costs Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:11:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9GP4YB.A.LV.7NmFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com > Date: 2005/08/31 Wed PM 07:55:09 CDT > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: FW: Alleviating Energy Costs > > I just got wind from an outside source that BLP and > Carrier Corporation(part of the United Technologies > group) are up to something with R&D on a "new technology" > for home and commercial heating systems. UTC C. Corp. is > currently nearing completion of their major expansion of the engineering building- quadrupling it's size for an > unspecified project. > > As I work for Carrier in Australia I am currently trying > to investigate this further from my end but I have not > heard anything from here to date. If any Vorts in the US > have any knowledge about this or contacts within UTC I > would appreciate the help. As per usual in the corporate > world one country branch does not necessarily communicate > with their counterparts that well. > > > John Rudiger Interesting. Just how reliable is the wind you caught and your "outside source"? The last thing we really need right now are more baseless rumors. On the other hand... Have you considered posting this info over at the Yahoo Hydrino group? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 19:15:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j812Exfw002414; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:15:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j812Ev5n002390; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:14:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:14:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <021001c5ae9a$f51fb660$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <48vkfg$1cp8bva mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:14:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:59 PM Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta >> From: "Kyle Mcallister" >> > From: "Jed Rothwell" > >> >> >> > I told her "serves you right for driving that big car!" >> > It serves the whole damn nation right. I am sorry, >> > but I have zero sympathy for people who drive gas >> > guzzlers. They should have known this was going to >> > happen sooner or later. >> >> You go too far here. I'm sorry, but I am sure I am not >> the only one here whois getting a little tired of the >> holier than thou tirades. ... > > [snip] > > FWIW, most vortexians completely understand and sympathize with the fact > that low-income individuals & families cannot afford to purchase expensive > energy efficient hybrids. It is, in fact, one of the vexing problems with > the current market of energy efficiency vehicles - they ain't cheap. Ya > gott be rich to afford them. I can't afford one either. > One of the reasons we agititate for a new energy regime such as cold fusion is out of concern for social justice. For those who are struggling in this world. Taking expensive energy out of the current economic equation would certainly raise everyone's standard of living in many ways. On our way to an exotic energy source like cold fusion or ZPE we can focus on some of the exciting new energy technologies from new solar schemes to highly efficient automobiles to bring about some energy parity. The way gasoline is racing higher this summer should indicate to everyone that gasoline does not have a future as a prime energy source. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 19:21:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j812Knig004457; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:21:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j812Klc8004434; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:20:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:20:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [68.158.60.134] From: Terry Blanton To: Jed Rothwell , Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:20:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050901022026.GJNT10334.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > I would say I am praying for them, but alas I am stone cold atheist, and I do not pray for anything. But, of course, you hope for the best for them. Pas de difference. You are a wise man, Jed; however, I protest that you do not know enough to prove a negative. A wise man might claim to be an agnostic. I claim to be a gnostic, I know that I can know. I know that I know little. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 19:25:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j812P9qe006011; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:25:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j812P754005982; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:25:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <31732000.1125541490825.JavaMail.root mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:24:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks writes: > I can't speak for Jed, but what personally bothers me are those who DO make a decent income and > therefore CAN afford to purchase any kind of car on the market. But what do many of them long for? > What really jerks their chain? The biggest, meanest, the most powerful testosterone looking gas > guzzling SUV they can get their hands on. Why? Because owning a SUV gives them the illusion that once > they are behind the wheel they are sitting in the seat of power. EXACTLY right. I could not have put it better. I think many of these people are pathetic losers, and now that we face a real crisis, global warming, and a war for oil, they are unpatriotic jerks. (Okay, it may not be a "war for oil" exactly, but oil plays a big role, and we would not be fighting it if Iraq had no oil.) The auto companies figured out the personality of the typical SUV buyer years ago, and began targeting ads. It is not a pretty picture. See Bradsher's book "High and Mighty." A review is here: http://www.oilcrash.com/articles/suvs.htm I should not exaggerate though. There are some fine people who drive SUVs, and some who need them, such as mechanics, carpenters and farmers. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 20:22:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j813M9em027003; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:22:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j813M775026982; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:22:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:22:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002201c5aea4$46bda370$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Nola, the sequel Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:21:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5AE7A.474FEA70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5AE7A.474FEA70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C5AE7A.474FEA70" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C5AE7A.474FEA70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankOver the next few days we will have a better concept of the depth = of the disaster in N.O. The nation has , in effect, lost a city of = 400-500 thousand.The order has been given to totally evacuate the city = proper. Should the city become uninhabited for more than 2 months the = average resident will have had time to get a job in another area meaning = that resident may not return to N.O. An evacuation order can produce a = cascading of problems outside the ordinary such as infrastructure = restoration sufficent to sustain a repopulation. Already we are witnessing a lack of organization for response to the = pressing need to evacuate all residents and hospital patients. FEMA and = the Homeland Security leadership are in a pissing contest and efforts = are at a standstill until its decided who is in control. It is usually the third night into one of these nightmare scenarios that = the criminal mind and the desperate mind began to collide in the lawless = dark, thirsty and hungry city. I wouldn't want to be spending tonight in = the big easy. All of which brings me to the point. This nation is demonstrating an = obvious lack of leadership from the top down. The result can be a major = shift in voting patterns during the next two elections. On a upbeat note. CF may step forth as a hope, not yet in use , but a = hope for the nation. This hope may just grow legs and become a force = beyond its present focus to achieve new forms of usable energy. Even in = our small way we in the water related industry look to CF research = hoping for "fallout" that can spread to new water treating technology. Should the politician become aware of how uncertain his next candidacy = has become, some may look at CF as that hope and get behind the forward = motion. For sure, a politician has a built in weather vane and knows = when the winds of change take place. As an incentive, a really good = gasoline shortage creating a mile long line at the gas station has a way = of getting everyone's attention. Wanna see people get angry? take their = gas away that propels their SUV's. Or better still, the diesel fuel that = propels the trucks that deliver food to the neighborhood market. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C5AE7A.474FEA70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Over the next few days we will have a better concept of the depth = of the=20 disaster in N.O. The nation has , in effect, lost a city of 400-500 = thousand.The=20 order has been given to totally evacuate the city proper. Should = the city=20 become uninhabited for more than 2 months the average resident will have = had=20 time to get a job in another area meaning that resident may = not return to=20 N.O. An evacuation order can produce a cascading of problems outside the = ordinary such as infrastructure restoration sufficent to sustain a=20 repopulation.
 
Already we are witnessing a lack of organization for response to = the=20 pressing need to evacuate all residents and hospital patients. FEMA and = the=20 Homeland Security leadership are in a pissing contest and efforts are at = a=20 standstill until its decided who is in control.
 
It is usually the third night into one of these nightmare scenarios = that=20 the criminal mind and the desperate mind began to collide in the lawless = dark,=20 thirsty and hungry city. I wouldn't want to be spending tonight in the = big=20 easy.
 
All of which brings me to the point. This nation is demonstrating = an=20 obvious lack of leadership from the top down. The result can be a = major=20 shift in voting patterns during the next two elections.
 
On a upbeat note. CF may step forth as a hope, not yet in use , but = a hope=20 for the nation. This hope may just grow legs and become a force = beyond its=20 present  focus to achieve new forms of usable energy. Even in our = small way=20 we in the water related industry look to CF research hoping for = "fallout" that=20 can spread to new water treating technology.
 
Should the politician become aware of how uncertain his next = candidacy has=20 become, some may look at CF as that hope and get behind the forward = motion. For=20 sure, a politician has a built in weather vane and knows when the winds = of=20 change take place. As an incentive, a really good gasoline shortage = creating a=20 mile long line at the gas station has a way of getting everyone's = attention.=20 Wanna see people get angry? take their gas away that propels their = SUV's. Or=20 better still, the diesel fuel that propels the trucks that deliver food = to the=20 neighborhood market.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C5AE7A.474FEA70-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5AE7A.474FEA70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c5aea4$30152990$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5AE7A.474FEA70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 20:28:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j813SQWr029779; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:28:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j813SOKJ029755; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:28:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:28:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c5aea5$2a265800$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:28:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5AE7B.40D309B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5AE7B.40D309B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002A_01C5AE7B.40D309B0" ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C5AE7B.40D309B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankKyle wrote.. I am a full time Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing = home a little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the least, sucks. Especially here = .. Kyle , 12k is below the welfare rate. You would be better off moving = back to ole Miss and get a job rebuilding gambling casinos where you can = ride a bike to work. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C5AE7B.40D309B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Kyle wrote..

 I am a full time
Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless = Buffalo New=20 York area, bringing home
a little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the = least,=20 sucks. Especially here ..

Kyle , 12k is below the welfare rate. You would be better off moving = back to=20 ole Miss and get a job rebuilding gambling casinos where you can ride a = bike to=20 work.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C5AE7B.40D309B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5AE7B.40D309B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002801c5aea5$29a78b10$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5AE7B.40D309B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 22:12:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j815CRng030860; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:12:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j815CPYt030838; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:12:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:12:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43168D9D.7000007 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:11:57 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Orleans: 80 percent of the city under water References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050830184351.029b8748 mail.newenergytimes.com> <016001c5add1$339107c0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20050831094228.04b64140@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831094228.04b64140 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > John Coviello wrote: > >> 1st time martial law has been declared since WW2. > > > Martial law has been declared many times, especially during the > rioting in the 1960s. I do not know whether it has been declared after > natural disasters, but I expect it has been. > > This storm was powerful and the effects were awful, but not > unprecedented. It was partly bad luck. If the dikes in New Orleans had > held, the damage would have been moderate. > > I am a little surprised there has been nothing in the national news > claiming this was caused in part by global warming. I expect it was. > The number of hurricanes and the average power of them has been > increasing rapidly in the US and Japan. Yesterday, the Japanese > Ministry of environment released a study claiming that global warming > has changed the nature of the monsoon and typhoons in Japan. Rain has > increased 10% and the power of the storms has increased by about 20%. > I will translate more of this later on. > > - Jed > > I think the global warming claim has reached the point where it often goes assumed but unstated. There is a 50 year cycle in climatology that confuses the issue a little. The last big storm of this intensity and size was in the 40's and got overshaddowed in the news by the war. I really wish I had a franchise on amphibious cars in the gulf states right now. I know of two companies in that game. You would make a mint selling them to rescuers and others today and tomorrow. I know the Aussy Boyd Wyatt in Queensland (he's waiting for the fusion powerplants I told him we're hoping to make); http://www.ozamphibian.com/ http://www.gizmag.com.au/go/3814/ the malaysian project. http://www.inventqjaya.com/enterprise_revamp.htm Where are those great big hovercraft the marines use? Did we leave them in the other gulf? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 22:39:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j815d2lW006427; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:39:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j815cuL1006377; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:38:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:38:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4316935B.5000408 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:36:27 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Civilization's thin vaneer References: <000a01c5adde$921546a0$0e027841 xptower> <6.2.1.2.2.20050831100026.04a48570@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831100026.04a48570 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4BupMD.A.jjB.wPpFDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > RC Macaulay wrote: > >> Watching the unrestrained looting via TV in New Orleans can give one >> an insight why the people need the right to keep and bare arms. > > > Yes, short sleeve shirts are de rigueur for events of this nature. > Seriously, I do not see why we need guns in situations like this. > People can cause any amount of havoc with ordinary object such as > clubs and rope. The 1923 Tokyo earthquake killed and dispossessed > hundreds of thousands of people. Naturally, the angry citizens blamed > a racial minority. The government, which had done nothing to prepare > for the disaster, diverted attention by blaming Korean residents of > Japan, claiming they were looting, lighting fires and poisoning well > water. Large crowds of Japanese people led by right wing fanatics > killed roughly 6,000 Koreans, beating them to death, lynching and > burning them, while the police looked the other way. > > I have no love for looters, but if you really value ruined goods and > melting ice cream more than people's lives, you can kill them without > guns. If your goal is prevent looting (as opposed to just killing > people), a neighborhood watch in cooperation with the police is the > answer. Unfortunately that is impossible when most people in the > neighborhood has fled. > > - Jed > > I gather from CNN that the looters are quite well armed thank you. I noticed that the looters were not fleeing the cops they were fleeing the camera. Interesting. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 23:34:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j816U4s9025857; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:34:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j816FRPa019860; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:15:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:15:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43169C55.7030000 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:14:45 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Civilization's thin vaneer References: <000001c5ae41$6178a150$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> In-Reply-To: <000001c5ae41$6178a150$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/62443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've done climatology. The storm downgraded because the wind dropped 10 mile per hour and the category is based on wind speed. It was always just barely cat 5. Wind speeds drop when the storm passes over land or cooler water. The water flowing out of the Mississippi may have had an effect both cooling and possibly turning the storm. Even a nuclear bomb would not have made much impression on the storm. Contrails would not have cooled the storm enough to have mattered, its a few tenths of a degree. Rain seeding might have worked but it would have taken hundreds of flights and if it had worked at all in changing the storm from cat 5 to a high cat 4 the pentagon would be making proud claims now. Even if it failed they would be claiming that they tried. The 45th weather regiment ( or is it a wing) would be the people working on such a project (cloud seeding or contrails) and they don't seem to be that busy. Several reporters gave reports from their base using their weather data. John Steck wrote: > Is anyone else curious as to what if anything was being done to cause > the downgrade to category 4 just prior to landfall and the subsequent > rapid disintegration of the front? Our recent thread on contrails and > weather modification efforts keeps playing back in my head.... > > -john > >